Jeff Sewell Deposition

In The Matter Of:

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

v.

JEFFERSON COUNTY, ALABAMA, ET. AL.

___________________________________________________

JEFFREY M. SEWELL ‐ Vol. 1July 30, 2013

__________________________________________

JEFFREY M. SEWELL - 7/30/2013

1-800-325-3376 www.merrillcorp.com/lawMerrill Corporation - New York

Page 1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

SOUTHERN DIVISION

CIVIL ACTION NO.: CV-75-S-666-S

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

Against,

JEFFERSON COUNTY, ALABAMA, et al.,

Defendants. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -CIVIL ACTION NO.: CV-74-S-17-S

JOHN M. MARTIN, et al.,

Against,

CITY OF BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, et al.,

Defendants.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -CIVIL ACTION NO.: CV-74-S-12-S

ENSLEY BRANCH OF NAACP, et al.,

Against,

GEORGE SEIBELS, et al.,

Defendants.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

DEPOSITION

OF

JEFFREY M. SEWELL

JULY 30, 2013



Page 2

1 Taken Before: Jane B. Elliott, CCR

2 ACCR #306 - Expires 9-30-13

3 Notary Public - Expires 11-09-16

4

5 A P P E A R A N C E S

6 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:

7 CRAVATH, SWAINE & MOORE, LLP

8 Mr. Rowan D. Wilson

9 Worldwide Plaza

10 825 Eighth Avenue

11 New York, NY 10019-7475

12 (212)474-1348 - [email protected]

13

14 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

15 Civil Rights Division

16 Mr. Jay D. Adelstein (VIA TELEPHONE)

17 Mr. Joseph J. Sperber (VIA TELEPHONE)

18 Patrick Henry Building, Room 4026

19 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

20 Washington, DC 20530

21 (202)514-3749 - [email protected]

22

23

24

25



Page 3

1 (APPEARANCES)

2 FOR THE DEPONENT:

3 LOWE & GRAMMAS, LLP

4 Mr. E. Clayton Lowe, Jr.

5 Liberty Park

6 1952 Urban Center Parkway

7 Vestavia Hills, Alabama 35242

8 (205)380-2499 - [email protected]

9 FOR THE DEFENDANTS:

10 MAYNARD, COOPER & GALE, PC

11 Mr. David W. Smith

12 Mr. James L. Mitchell

13 Mr. W. Thomas Mayfield, IV

14 Ms. Grace Robinson Murphy

15 1901 Sixth Avenue North

16 2499 Amsouth Harbert Plaza

17 Birmingham, Alabama 35203-2618

18 (205)254-1000 - [email protected]

19

20 RILEY, JACKSON

21 Mr. Jay E. Murrill

22 3530 Independence Drive

23 Birmingham, Alabama 35209

24 (205)879-5000 - [email protected]

25



Page 4

1 (APPEARANCES FOR DEFENDANTS)

2 Mr. Theodore A. Lawson, II

3 Assistant County Attorney

4 Room 280 Courthouse

5 716 Richard Arrington, Jr. Blvd. N.

6 Birmingham, Alabama 35203

7 (205)325-5688 - [email protected]

8

9 ALSO PRESENT:

10 Ms. Alaizah Koorji

11

12

13 * * *

14

15 I N D E X

16

17 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE NO.:

18 Mr. Wilson.................................6

19 Mr. Smith..................................102

20 RE-EXAMINATION BY:

21 Mr. Wilson.................................220

22

23

24

25



Page 5

1 EXHIBIT INDEX

2 MAR

3 Sewell Exhibit 1 Copy of Al.com article, Wright, 39

4 4/7/13

5 2 Copy of April 2 memorandum, 50 Carrington to Sewell

6 3 Copy of letter, 4/8/13, Carrington 71

7 to Sewell

8

9 County Exhibit 1 Copy of resolution of organization, 105

10 11/10/10

11 2 Copy of Al.com article, 10/18/12, 108 Barnett Wright

12 3 Copy of Al.com article, 10/19/12, 112

13 Kennedy

14 4 Copy of Al.com article, 10/23/12, 114 Archibald

15 5 Copy of Al.com article, 11/1/12, 118

16 Archibald

17 6 Copy of memorandum, 3/13/13, Sewell 122 to Jefferson County Commission

18 7 Copy of series of e-mails, 2/25/13 146

19 8 Copy of resolution of organization, 152

20 Carrington

21 9 Copy of resolution of organization, 155 Sewell

22 10 Copy of settlement agreement 205

23

24

25



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1 I, Jane B. Elliott, Certified

2 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public for the

3 State of Alabama, acting as Commissioner,

4 certify that on this date, pursuant to the

5 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the

6 foregoing stipulation of counsel, there came

7 before me at the Westin Birmingham, 2221 Richard

8 Arrington Boulevard, Birmingham, Alabama, on the

9 30th day of July, 2013, commencing at

10 10:00 a.m., JEFFREY M. SEWELL, witness in the

11 above cause, for oral examination, whereupon the

12 following proceedings were had:

13

14 JEFFREY M. SEWELL,

15 being first duly sworn, was

16 examined and testified as follows:

17

18 THE REPORTER: Do you have

19 stipulations?

20 MR. WILSON: We do not.

21 EXAMINATION

22 BY MR. WILSON:

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sewell.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Can you state your name for the



Page 7

1 record, please?

2 A. Jeffrey M. Sewell.

3 Q. And at some point in time you worked

4 for Jefferson County; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did you start working for

7 Jefferson County?

8 A. The first time was in about 1982, I

9 believe. I was in law school and I was a law

10 clerk in the office for a year. Then went on

11 after law school into the Army in the JAG Corps,

12 and spent four years in the Army and then came

13 back, began working the second time, I believe,

14 on August 28, 1988.

15 Q. In what capacity?

16 A. As assistant county attorney.

17 Q. Who was the county attorney at the

18 time when you came on in 1988?

19 A. Andy Strickland.

20 Q. And you reported to Mr. Strickland?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did your position change at any time

23 during the course of your employment with

24 Jefferson County?

25 A. In November of -- I believe it was



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1 November of 2008, Andy retired and I was hired

2 or appointed, I guess, promoted, whatever the

3 word is, to county attorney.

4 Q. So between August 28th of 1988 and

5 November of 2008 your position didn't change,

6 you were assistant county attorney?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Were there other assistant county

9 attorneys during that period of time?

10 A. There were, there were other

11 assistants that preceded my second employment

12 and other assistant county attorneys that --

13 that were employed from 1988 up through -- up

14 through, you know, later in years. Charles

15 Wagner is one of them who is now retired, and

16 Theo Lawson and eventually French McMillan and

17 Shawnna Smith.

18 Q. Did the assistant county attorneys

19 have different responsibilities by subject

20 matter or type of work?

21 A. Not in any official capacity, not in

22 any -- you know, there's no record of that, but

23 just by the way things worked out there tended

24 to be certain -- certain of us had certain areas

25 we did, you know, kind of -- I won't say



Page 9

1 specialized in, but that's just kind of what we

2 did and others did other things and we tried not

3 to get in each other's lanes as best we could.

4 Q. During the time you were assistant

5 county attorney, did you have any responsibility

6 for the United States versus Jefferson case?

7 A. This case?

8 Q. This case.

9 A. No.

10 Q. During the period of time that you

11 were assistant county attorney, who did?

12 A. Charles Wagner for -- for most of the

13 period of time, and then Theo Lawson.

14 Q. And did either Mr. Wagner or

15 Mr. Lawson report to you while you were an

16 assistant county attorney?

17 A. No.

18 Q. They reported also to Mr. Strickland?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When Mr. Strickland was county

21 attorney, what authority did he have to direct

22 Mr. Wagner and Mr. Lawson as to their handling

23 of the U.S. V. Jefferson case?

24 A. He was their direct supervisor and

25 department head.



Page 10

1 Q. So he had the ability to supervise

2 their work --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- in that case?

5 Did Mr. Strickland, while he was

6 county attorney, have the authority to direct

7 Mr. Wagner and Mr. Lawson as to the steps the

8 county would take to comply with the consent

9 decree -- consent decree in this case?

10 A. He -- subject to the client, the

11 county commission, subject to their instruction

12 and direction, he did.

13 Q. Then I think you said in November of

14 2008 you became county attorney?

15 A. I believe that's right.

16 Q. Okay. And that was on

17 Mr. Strickland's retirement?

18 A. It was.

19 Q. Was there a gap at all?

20 A. I don't think there was. There is a

21 resolution of the commission that sets the date

22 that he retired. I don't recall exactly what --

23 I think it was October 31st, I'm not certain,

24 but I think the next Monday was November 2nd or

25 3rd, and I think that was my first day as county



Page 11

1 attorney.

2 Q. Was there a -- do you know how you

3 were selected for the position?

4 A. Oh, yes. There had been -- I don't

5 want to get into the conversations with,

6 I guess, the commission, but there was a process

7 involved and it culminated in a vote of the

8 county commission and that would be recorded in

9 the minutes in around October or November of

10 2008.

11 Q. Were you interviewed by the

12 commission?

13 A. I was not formally interviewed by the

14 commission.

15 Q. Do you know if the commission had

16 other candidates that were considered?

17 A. There were other lawyers that had, I

18 will use the term "lobbied," for the job. And I

19 was aware of that. I tried to stay out of that.

20 Q. Were those lawyers employees of the

21 county at the time?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Once you became county attorney, who

24 had the -- starting November 2008, who had the

25 day-to-day responsibility for handling the U.S.



Page 12

1 V. Jefferson litigation?

2 A. Charlie Wagner. He had entered an

3 appearance years ago. And I don't really recall

4 if Theo in 2008, he probably had, I'm not going

5 to swear to that, I don't remember, but Charlie

6 was directly responsible for this case until he

7 retired at the -- I believe at the end of 2010.

8 I believe that's right.

9 Q. Was Mr. Wagner also responsible until

10 the point that he retired for supervising the

11 county's consent decree compliance issues

12 related to this case?

13 A. To -- subject to the client's

14 instructions and -- yes.

15 Q. The client being the county

16 commission?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware that a contempt hearing

19 against Jefferson County commenced in March

20 2009?

21 A. I am aware of it. I was not present

22 at it but I know that it happened.

23 Q. And were you aware that the county,

24 for example, submitted a -- a trial exhibit list

25 in October of 2008 in connection with that



Page 13

1 trial?

2 A. Vaguely aware of it. I don't recall

3 that I have seen it.

4 Q. In October 2008, did you have any

5 responsibilities for the U.S. V. Jefferson case?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you aware that in 2009, in

8 advance of the trial, the county submitted a

9 pretrial memorandum of law in connection with

10 the contempt hearing?

11 A. Vaguely aware of it.

12 Q. Did you -- do you recall having any

13 involvement in directing or supervising the

14 county's 2009 trial strategy?

15 A. I did not.

16 Q. You had become the county attorney in

17 late 2008, I think you said. Were there -- what

18 issues were you focused on for the first several

19 months when you became county attorney?

20 A. The county's financial condition. In

21 the early part of 2008, actually late 2007, the

22 financing structure of the sewer debt had begun

23 to collapse and it got worse over the course of

24 the 2008 period. And the general fund began to

25 collapse, the occupational tax was invalidated,



Page 14

1 and my attention was on the county's financial

2 condition.

3 Q. Are you generally familiar with the

4 position that the county took at the

5 commencement of the 2009 contempt hearing?

6 A. Not -- not really, no.

7 Q. Do you know whether the county in

8 March of 2009 admitted any violation of the

9 consent decree?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know somebody named Janet

12 Thornton?

13 A. I have met Mrs. Thornton. I know who

14 she is. I don't know her well.

15 Q. Well, tell me what you know about

16 her.

17 A. As I recall, she's a consultant of

18 the county.

19 Q. For what purpose?

20 A. For this case.

21 Q. And did you have any role or

22 responsibility, involvement, in retaining her?

23 A. I don't believe that I did.

24 Q. Did you have any responsibility or

25 role in supervising the work she did for the



Page 15

1 county?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you ever read her deposition

4 testimony or trial testimony?

5 A. I don't recall.

6 Q. If I tell you she produced reports

7 for the county relating to this case in 2008, do

8 you know whether you had any involvement in the

9 supervision of that work?

10 A. In 2008 I would not have, no.

11 Q. Now, you're generally aware that the

12 trial that started in 2009 was adjourned for a

13 couple of years?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that it resumed in December of

16 2012?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As county attorney were you involved

19 in the county's trial strategy at all for the

20 2012 resumption of the trial?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you aware prior to the start of

23 the trial that the county had admitted in its

24 pretrial memorandum of law that it was in

25 violation of many of the decree provisions?



Page 16

1 MR. SMITH: Object to the form of the

2 question and object to the witness providing

3 communications between attorneys over that

4 litigation strategy.

5 MR. WILSON: Is that an instruction?

6 MR. SMITH: Well, the witness is not

7 under my control, to my knowledge.

8 MR. LOWE: Right. If you're raising

9 an attorney-client privilege objection, then I

10 would direct him not to answer anything that

11 would reveal such privilege.

12 And since we're on this topic, the

13 county has made it quite clear they're concerned

14 about Mr. Sewell revealing privilege in this

15 deposition, so I foresee additional instances of

16 this arising in at least three ways. One is you

17 ask Mr. Sewell a question, he objects based on

18 privilege. Since it's the county's privilege to

19 assert and not Mr. Sewell's, I'm going to direct

20 Mr. Sewell not to answer, like in this instance.

21 The second scenario I would see would

22 be you ask Mr. Sewell a question, Mr. Smith does

23 not object; however, Mr. Sewell believes that

24 his answer may reveal something privileged, he

25 will say let me confer with my attorney. I will



Page 17

1 in turn confer with Mr. Smith. If he believes

2 it's privileged, then I will direct him not to

3 answer.

4 In the third scenario, you ask

5 Mr. Sewell a question, he doesn't object,

6 Mr. Smith doesn't object, Mr. Sewell answers

7 believing that his answer does not contain a

8 privilege, and indeed the county may think it

9 does, then I believe it's incumbent upon the

10 county to assert it at that point and we'll take

11 it up then.

12 Is everybody okay with proceeding

13 that way?

14 MR. ADELSTEIN: Am I correct that

15 it's Clay Lowell speaking?

16 MR. LOWE: Lowe, yeah, L-O-W-E.

17 MR. ADELSTEIN: Thank you.

18 MR. LOWE: I'm sorry, I forgot all

19 about you being on the telephone.

20 MR. WILSON: That -- that is a -- I

21 guess the only thing I would ask is that if

22 Mr. Smith is making an objection that concerns

23 an assertion of privilege, that he put the word

24 privilege somewhere into whatever he puts on the

25 record.



Page 18

1 MR. LOWE: I agree with that.

2 MR. WILSON: Because the last one, I

3 couldn't tell if it was purely a form objection

4 or if there was some concern that there was a

5 privileged communication problem.

6 MR. SMITH: In the deposition -- I'll

7 note that.

8 In the deposition, typically in a

9 deposition we stipulate at the outset that

10 objections other than as to form are reserved,

11 and of course privilege is an issue where the

12 county attorney is being deposed. Are we

13 reserving other objections?

14 MR. WILSON: I think the Federal

15 Rules reserve objections as to hearsay and so

16 on, but privilege I've never understood to be

17 that sort of a thing. I think you need to

18 assert it if you intend to --

19 MR. LOWE: And I understood at the

20 beginning we said there were no stipulations in

21 addition to what -- the rules that apply.

22 MR. SMITH: See, I didn't hear that.

23 So you said what about stipulations?

24 MR. WILSON: That there were no

25 stipulations, but I believe the Federal Rules



Page 19

1 explicitly preserve objections other than as to

2 form.

3 MR. LOWE: But back to your question,

4 it would probably help to reread the question,

5 let him make his objection more succinctly and

6 move on from there. How about that?

7 MR. WILSON: That's fine. If I --

8 sure, and just as long as I understand that you

9 have a privilege issue in the objection, that's

10 all I need.

11 MR. SMITH: Sure, and I'll do my best

12 to articulate something about it.

13 MR. WILSON: Thank you.

14 MR. SMITH: And so to clarify, my

15 last objection was an objection to privilege

16 concerns. I don't know what the answer would

17 be, but it was a question about information he

18 had, and not knowing the foundation of that at

19 all my concern is that I have to assert

20 privilege to the question as phrased.

21 MR. WILSON: Okay. Let me try a

22 different question.

23 MR. LOWE: Are we withdrawing the

24 last one?

25 Mr. WILSON: Sure.



Page 20

1 MR. LOWE: Okay.

2 MR. WILSON: Well, there's been an

3 objection and an instruction, so we'll just

4 leave it at that and I'll move on.

5 MR. LOWE: Okay.

6 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Do you recall

7 reading the county's 2012 pretrial memorandum

8 before it was filed with the court?

9 A. I do recall reading it.

10 Q. And do you recall commenting on it at

11 all?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. SMITH: Objection. To whom?

14 MR. WILSON: To anyone. I didn't ask

15 for the substance of the comment.

16 MR. SMITH: Object on privilege. If

17 he provided legal advice about it, we assert the

18 privilege. If he talked to Judge Smith about it

19 or you about it, then it wouldn't be privileged.

20 MR. WILSON: Well, the fact that he

21 commented on it even to a client, unless I'm

22 asking for the substance of the comment, isn't

23 seeking privileged information. It's

24 information you have to provide on a privilege

25 log were there one.



Page 21

1 MR. SMITH: Information you have to

2 provide on a privilege log what?

3 MR. WILSON: Were there one. All I'm

4 asking is whether a conversation existed. If

5 the answer's no, then it's no. If the answer is

6 yes, I'm not going to inquire about the

7 substance.

8 MR. SMITH: And I suppose then it'd

9 be important to say that if the question is a

10 yes or no question, that the answer be limited

11 to yes or no rather than going on into what the

12 yes might have behind it so that we can judge it

13 one question at a time.

14 MR. LOWE: That's fair enough. I

15 think what he's saying, and you certainly

16 realize that if he asks you a yes or no

17 question, say yes or no. If he objects you

18 don't divulge the explanation for the yes or no.

19 THE WITNESS: I think I understand

20 that.

21 MR. LOWE: He does.

22 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) So the question is

23 did you comment on the pretrial memorandum

24 before it was filed?

25 A. Yes.



Page 22

1 Q. Are you aware that the county's

2 pretrial memorandum contains a number of

3 stipulations of violations of the consent

4 decree?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you were aware of that before it

7 was filed?

8 MR. SMITH: Objection.

9 MR. LOWE: What's the grounds?

10 MR. SMITH: Privilege.

11 MR. LOWE: Direct him not to answer,

12 based on the county asserting the privilege and

13 it's not Mr. Sewell's privilege to assert.

14 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Did you read a draft

15 of the pretrial memorandum?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when you read the draft, did you

18 see stipulations of violations of the consent

19 decree in it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In 2012, did you have the authority

22 to alter the contents of filings to be made with

23 the courts if you believed them to be wrong?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it a fair characterization to say



Page 23

1 that the county's position as to the

2 Martin-Bryant party's motion for contempt

3 changed between 2009 and 2012?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you have any role in that

6 change?

7 MR. SMITH: Objection to the extent

8 it calls for privileged information.

9 MR. LOWE: That was a yes or no.

10 MR. WILSON: Just a yes or no.

11 THE WITNESS: Answer?

12 MR. LOWE: Answering yes doesn't

13 reveal any privilege.

14 THE WITNESS: The answer to the

15 question is yes.

16 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) I don't recall

17 seeing you at the 2012 trial. Did you attend

18 any portions of it?

19 A. I did not. I don't recall that I've

20 ever entered an appearance in that case.

21 Q. Did you read any of the trial

22 testimony after it occurred?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you read any of the trial

25 testimony given by county commissioners?



Page 24

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you read all of the trial

3 testimony given by the county commissioners?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall when you first did

6 that?

7 A. Very soon after the trial.

8 Q. And have you read their testimony

9 more than once?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall the -- let's start

12 slowly. Do you recall Commissioner Stephens

13 testifying to the following in response to a

14 question: Are you personally committed to

15 making sure the county comes into compliance

16 with the consent decree?

17 Answer: One hundred percent.

18 Question: Are you committed to

19 allowing Manager Petelos to take the steps

20 needed without interference from the county

21 commission?

22 Answer: Yes, sir, I agree to abide

23 and uphold the law and that is the law.

24 Do you recall testimony to that

25 effect by Commissioner Stephens?



Page 25

1 A. I recall reading that.

2 Q. Yeah -- yes. Sorry. That's my

3 question.

4 Do you recall reading a colloquy

5 between Judge Smith and Commissioner Stephens

6 about an incident involving Commissioner

7 Stephens' interference with employment

8 decisions?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you recall -- well, do you

11 have any recollection of what your perception of

12 Judge Smith's comments were, if any?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what was your perception of that

15 testimony?

16 A. Of Judge Smith's comments?

17 Q. Correct.

18 A. That Judge Smith was making it very

19 clear what Judge Smith expected.

20 Q. And what was that?

21 A. Compliance.

22 Q. Do you recall that Commissioner

23 Knight also testified at the trial?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you recall reading testimony



Page 26

1 of Commissioner Knight to the following effect:

2 Question, all right, do you plan in any way to

3 interfere with Mr. Petelos' duties as the

4 appointing authority of Jefferson County?

5 Answer: No, sir.

6 Question: Do you believe that

7 Mr. Petelos is committed to compliance with the

8 consent decree?

9 Answer: I do believe that he's fully

10 willfully compliant with this consent decree.

11 Question: Do you believe that the

12 commission is committed to compliance with the

13 consent decree?

14 Answer: Yes.

15 Question: What about you

16 individually?

17 Answer: Absolutely.

18 Do you recall that testimony?

19 A. I recall reading it, yes.

20 Q. And do you recall Judge Smith having

21 the colloquy with Commissioner Knight as well in

22 which he used the phrase "heavy feet"?

23 A. I recall reading it.

24 Q. Did you attend a meeting of the

25 Jefferson County Commission's Administrative



Page 27

1 Services Committee on April 12, 2013?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And who was on the -- who were the

4 members of the administrative services

5 committee?

6 A. All five of the county commissioners.

7 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Petelos was

8 present at the meeting?

9 A. I don't think that he was.

10 Q. Were members of the public present at

11 the meeting?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was the press present at the meeting?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know whether the meeting was

16 open to anyone who wanted to attend?

17 A. It was a public meeting under Alabama

18 law.

19 Q. So you didn't need an invitation, you

20 could simply show up? I could have shown up?

21 A. Absolutely.

22 Q. And I wouldn't have been turned away?

23 A. Should not have been.

24 Q. Were you there for the whole meeting?

25 A. Yes.



Page 28

1 Q. And do you remember speaking at the

2 meeting?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Do you recall whether there was any

5 dispute about whether you should be allowed to

6 speak at the meeting?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what do you recall about that?

9 MR. SMITH: Object to the form, use

10 of the term dispute. You may go ahead.

11 A. I just -- I recall that there was

12 some debate between county commissioners as to

13 whether I should be allowed to speak.

14 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) And do you recall

15 who was on which side of the debate?

16 A. Not really, to be honest with you. I

17 -- I just recall that there was discussion

18 and -- which I stayed out of, as I recall.

19 Q. And ultimately you were allowed to

20 speak?

21 A. I was.

22 Q. Do you recall saying at the meeting

23 that the awarding of a merit raise by Tony

24 Petelos is one of several personnel matters that

25 the commissioners have no role in anymore, all



Page 29

1 of you have made that clear in your testimony to

2 Judge Smith, do you understand that?

3 A. Do I recall saying that?

4 Q. At the meeting?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. Now, in October 2012, did the county

7 commission give you a pay raise?

8 A. They -- they awarded a raise. I

9 don't remember the exact date, but --

10 Q. Somewhere in late 2012?

11 A. Somewhere in that time, yes.

12 Q. Do you recall seeing any statements

13 by Commissioner Carrington concerning his views

14 of the -- of your job performance?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what do you recall him saying?

17 A. To me or to others?

18 Q. Either way.

19 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I mean, we assert

20 the privilege. I don't know -- well, you were

21 talking about the media coverage, but we assert

22 the privilege over any communication that would

23 fall within, you know, attorney/client

24 privilege.

25 MR. WILSON: So you're -- just so I'm



Page 30

1 clear, if Commissioner Carrington told

2 Mr. Sewell something about Mr. Sewell's

3 performance, you view that as attorney/client

4 privilege?

5 MR. SMITH: Was the question limited

6 -- see, you've got your hand over your face

7 while you're asking questions and I am

8 struggling to hear you.

9 MR. WILSON: I'm sorry.

10 MR. SMITH: It's okay. I -- but I'm

11 not playing a game about not hearing as well as

12 I'd like, but I thought that you were asking him

13 about statements Carrington made about his

14 performance and didn't limit it to statements

15 made to Jeff.

16 MR. WILSON: I did not limit it to

17 statements to Jeff.

18 MR. SMITH: And so if Commissioner

19 Carrington sought legal advice about that, then

20 that would be something that falls within

21 privilege. And I don't know the various

22 scenarios that could be behind that.

23 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) All right. Let me

24 ask you to exclude from your answer any legal

25 advice Commissioner Carrington sought from you



Page 31

1 about your job performance and instead ask --

2 well, and let's take it in little pieces. Did

3 you have any conversations directly with

4 Commissioner Carrington about your job

5 performance at or around the time the commission

6 awarded you a raise?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in the course of those

9 conversations with Commissioner Carrington, was

10 he seeking legal advice from you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Was he commenting on how well he

13 thought you performed the job?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And tell me what you remember about

16 that conversation.

17 A. It was all very positive.

18 Q. Do you recall him saying anything

19 negative, room for improvement, critical,

20 anything like that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How many conversations did you have

23 with him on the subject of your performance?

24 A. I don't recall. Several.

25 Q. Do you recall any statements that



Page 32

1 Commissioner Carrington made to the press about

2 your performance?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. And do you recall him saying

5 something to the effect of there is not a member

6 of the commission who has not told me how much

7 they value Jeff's knowledge and his guidance to

8 this council, we believe he's a valued member of

9 our team.

10 A. I recall being present at a meeting

11 when those words were spoken and I recall

12 reading them in various media.

13 Q. Somewhere around the time of your pay

14 raise?

15 A. Somewhere around that time.

16 Q. Do you recall at the April 12, 2013

17 committee meeting stating that on the afternoon

18 of April 2nd you got a memo from Commissioner

19 Carrington that outlined seven performance

20 deficiencies?

21 A. Do I recall stating myself at the

22 April 12th meeting that I had received a memo

23 from Commissioner Carrington on April 2nd, on

24 the afternoon of April 2nd --

25 Q. Correct.



Page 33

1 A. -- outlining seven performance

2 deficiencies?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Yes, I recall saying that.

5 Q. Okay. Did you also -- do you also

6 recall telling the commission at the April 12th

7 meeting that that was the first memo of

8 performance deficiency that you've ever

9 received, not just as an attorney for Jefferson

10 County for 25 years but also for four years

11 before that as a JAG lawyer?

12 A. I recall --

13 Q. Saying that?

14 A. The substance of that, yes. I don't

15 recall the exact words I used, but I do recall

16 saying that.

17 Q. Was that statement in substance true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So the April 2nd memo you got from

20 Commissioner Carrington was the first written

21 negative review of your job performance you had

22 received ever?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, earlier on the day of April 2nd,

25 2013, did you write or deliver a memo to the



Page 34

1 Jefferson County Commission?

2 A. Did I write or deliver?

3 Q. Let's say did you deliver?

4 A. I did not deliver.

5 Q. Did you write a memo to the

6 commission on April 2nd?

7 MR. SMITH: Objection, work product.

8 MR. WILSON: It was just a question

9 of whether a memorandum exists, not the

10 substance, but if you're going to instruct him

11 not to answer that --

12 MR. LOWE: Well, it's up to me --

13 MR. WILSON: Right.

14 MR. LOWE: -- to instruct him not to

15 answer, but he's making a work product

16 objection. What's -- what's the substance of

17 the objection? Did he author a memo? He's not

18 asking the substance of it. Are you --

19 MR. SMITH: Well, if he --

20 MR. LOWE: He hasn't even identified

21 the memo, he just said did you write a memo on a

22 particular date.

23 MR. SMITH: All right. I'll allow an

24 answer to did you write a memo.

25 MR. LOWE: On whatever particular



Page 35

1 date.

2 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) April 2nd, 2013.

3 A. I co-wrote a memo.

4 Q. Okay. Who were your co-authors?

5 A. My memory is that the memo was on my

6 letterhead and my name was on it, along with

7 Theo Lawson, Ted Hosp and perhaps Grace Murphy.

8 If someone has the memo, then that would -- I

9 don't have it.

10 Q. Do you know who prepared the initial

11 draft of that memo?

12 A. I -- I don't remember.

13 Q. Do you know whether it was you?

14 A. It may have been. I just -- you have

15 to understand, I write a lot of memos -- I wrote

16 a lot of memos.

17 Q. Did that memorandum provide legal

18 advice?

19 A. I think that it probably fairly did.

20 Q. Did it provide legal advice to the

21 Jefferson County Commission?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Generally speaking, without revealing

24 the advice, was the subject whether the

25 commission's actions were consistent with the



Page 36

1 county manager law?

2 MR. SMITH: Objection, assert

3 privilege.

4 MR. LOWE: I agree with him on that

5 one. I mean, the subject in that memo would

6 reveal privilege, so I direct him not to answer.

7 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Did the subject have

8 anything to do with the county manager act?

9 MR. SMITH: Object, assert privilege.

10 MR. LOWE: Direct him not to answer.

11 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Did the memorandum

12 contain any discussion about the contempt

13 hearing in the U.S. V. Jefferson case?

14 MR. SMITH: Objection, privilege.

15 MR. LOWE: I'll have to direct him

16 not to answer based on their objection.

17 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Are you aware of an

18 article in "The Birmingham News," or AL.com that

19 describes the April 2 memo in the following

20 way: Eighteen months after hiring a county

21 manager the Jefferson County Commission has not

22 formally relinquished their oversight of

23 department heads and is out of compliance with

24 the county manager law, the county's attorney

25 warned this week in a memo obtained by AL.com,



Page 37

1 "The Birmingham News."


3 privilege.

4 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Well, I think all I

5 asked -- I may not have asked it. Do you recall

6 reading an article that said that?

7 MR. SMITH: I don't object to the

8 yes/no answer to that question.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) When you read that

11 article, did you reach any conclusion about

12 whether "The Birmingham News" had actually

13 obtained a copy of the memo?

14 MR. SMITH: May I have just a

15 second? I need a minute to --

16 MR. LOWE: That phone is getting

17 annoying.

18 MR. SMITH: It compounds the hearing

19 problem.

20 MR. LOWE: Yeah, mine too, and I

21 don't have a hearing problem.

22 MR. SMITH: Ma'am, would you read

23 that question back to me, please?

24 (Whereupon the requested

25 portion of testimony was



Page 38

1 read.)

2 MR. SMITH: If the question is, on

3 reading it if you had a mental operation about

4 whether they have it, then I don't object to

5 that, but if he undertook to investigate it,

6 then that's a separate thing. So I think that

7 your question does trigger the possibility of

8 privileged information being provided in the

9 answer. So without knowing the answer, we make

10 our objection that no privileged information

11 should be provided in response.

12 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Okay. To be clear,

13 I'm not asking whether you undertook any effort

14 at all. I'm asking purely about when you read

15 it did you think that the paper has the article

16 -- I'm sorry, has the memorandum?

17 A. Did I think that?

18 Q. Uh-huh (INDICATING AFFIRMATIVE).

19 MR. LOWE: David's nodding that he

20 can answer.

21 MR. SMITH: And I -- I mean, if

22 there's an objection I'll say it.

23 MR. WILSON: Okay. Good.

24 MR. LOWE: All right.

25 MR. SMITH: I don't mean to -- Jeff



Page 39

1 was looking at me that moment.

2 MR. LOWE: Oh, I understand because

3 we are a little --

4 THE WITNESS: So I can answer?

5 (PHONE RINGING).

6 MR. LOWE: Was that you?

7 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately. Thought

8 I turned it off.

9 So I can answer the question, did I

10 think the newspaper had a copy of the memo?

11 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) That's the question.

12 A. I don't recall thinking whether they

13 might have had a copy or not. I just -- I don't

14 remember thinking that. I don't remember too

15 much about the article and I don't know if they

16 have a copy of it, or had a copy of it. I just

17 don't know.

18 MR. WILSON: Let me mark as Sewell

19 Exhibit 1 a copy of the article.

20 (Whereupon, Exhibit 1 was marked for

21 identification, a copy of which is

22 attached hereto.)

23 MR. SMITH: May I have 30 seconds?

24 MR. WILSON: Of course. Do you want

25 to take a copy with you?



Page 40

1 MR. SMITH: I have one -- I will take

2 a copy.

3 (Whereupon, a short recess was

4 had, 10:36 a.m. - 10:38 a.m.)

5 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Have you had a

6 chance to look at the article in AL.com?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm not going to read the whole thing

9 into the record or have you do that, but reading

10 it now, do you believe that the newspaper has a

11 copy of your April 2nd memorandum?

12 MR. LOWE: Is your question to him

13 just from reading this did he assume that they

14 had a copy of it?

15 MR. WILSON: As he reads it now, yes,

16 would he draw that conclusion.

17 MR. LOWE: There's apparently no

18 objection.

19 MR. SMITH: Well, let me say this --

20 MR. LOWE: Or is he pondering?

21 MR. SMITH: It's -- my concern is

22 that we not have testimony that is protected as

23 privileged because it amounts to the county

24 attorney forming a legal opinion or -- or in

25 effect starting toward work product. And these



Page 41

1 are gray areas, they're certainly difficult for

2 me, so I don't know what the next question is,

3 but if the question, if I'm recalling the

4 question correctly and the question is from

5 reading this piece of paper here today, do you

6 think they have a copy, and that is the entirety

7 of the question, then I'm not going to object to

8 privilege on some thought he has here today.

9 MR. WILSON: That's the entirety of

10 question.

11 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

12 MR. LOWE: Go ahead.

13 A. I don't know if they had a copy of

14 the article or not. I note in the article that

15 there are several quotes that appear to be

16 quotes from the memo in quotation marks which

17 suggests to me that the author of the article

18 had at least seen the memo, but whether they

19 have a copy, I don't know.

20 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Do you recall at the

21 April 12th, 2013 committee meeting telling the

22 committee, there are changes in that resolution

23 that you need to make that -- that you need to

24 make to make that document comply with the

25 existing law of Alabama and you got the memo



Page 42

1 from me about that?

2 A. I recall words to that effect, yes.

3 Q. And the memo from me about that that

4 you referred to in that portion of the committee

5 meeting was the April 2 memo we've been talking

6 about?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall that Commissioner

9 Carrington started the April 12th, 2013

10 committee meeting by saying that the memo that

11 you sent expressed an opinion that the

12 commission's committee structure outlined in the

13 commission's organizational resolution that

14 Mr. Sewell participated in drafting and

15 recommended for adoption in 2010 was somehow

16 inconsistent with the county manager act?


18 Q. That Mr. Carrington said at the

19 committee hearing?

20 A. Words to that effect, yes.

21 Q. Do you recall one of commissioners at

22 the committee hearing on April 12th saying that,

23 with regard to the April 2nd memo that you'd

24 written, we all kind of know what it said

25 because it was published in the paper, or pieces



Page 43

1 of it were?

2 A. I don't have any memory of that.

3 Q. Okay. We're going to try and play

4 you an audio clip and see if you can identify

5 who this is.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. This is an audio clip from a

8 recording produced to us by the county

9 purporting to be a recording of this committee

10 meeting.

11 (PLAYING RECORDING) And -- and would

12 it be prudent for you as the county attorney to

13 say, hey guys, I've got this coming up? You

14 know, you may have forgotten about it, I don't

15 know, you knew about it, and I don't know, I

16 don't feel like you communicated that to us.

17 The April 2nd memorandum is -- here we had this

18 organizational chart in 2010 when we came in and

19 it -- it says what it says. And we had the

20 consent hearing, the contempt hearing, and

21 several months passed by and the issue never

22 became paramount until April 2nd, 2010. And I

23 think that was in response to Mr. Carrington

24 putting forth a resolution to add another

25 committee for the county manager so that we can



Page 44

1 kind of shift all those departments under county

2 manager to him, and -- and then had the county

3 attorney to have a committee. And I know you

4 and Mr. Carrington, I think y'all told me y'all

5 had talked, and we're in this committee meeting

6 and then you pull out a memorandum and put it

7 down, and we kind of stepped back and took that

8 deep breath, and then a few days later you came

9 with that other memorandum saying it was, I

10 guess, an emergency. And so I guess my question

11 is why did it become so, you know, a burning

12 issue on April the 2nd, because, you know, we

13 all know kind of what -- what it said because it

14 was published in the paper, or pieces of it

15 were. And so as opposed to the county attorney

16 going, hey, let's -- on the organization, we

17 need to address it -- (RECORDING STOPPED).

18 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Okay. Who is that,

19 if you know?

20 A. That sounds to be Commissioner Joe

21 Knight.

22 Q. I had asked you previously whether

23 prior to April 2nd -- prior to April 2nd you had

24 ever received any written complaints about your

25 performance while employed with Jefferson



Page 45

1 County. I think your answer was no.

2 A. None that I can recall.

3 Q. Do you recall ever receiving any oral

4 complaints about your performance prior to April

5 2nd from any of the county commissioners?

6 MR. SMITH: Let me interject an

7 objection. I'm concerned that if -- about

8 discussions between Commissioner Carrington and

9 Mr. Sewell can include topics that we will

10 assert privilege on and where -- where what they

11 disagree about is the county's legal strategy or

12 the approach to handling a legal matter, that

13 there's a privilege there. And so we assert

14 that privilege objection at this point on the

15 topic of where the subject of the question is

16 performance concerns or some similar phrase.

17 MR. LOWE: But just so we're clear,

18 you don't have an objection to him answering

19 questions regarding discussions that solely

20 involve performance issues?

21 MR. SMITH: Well --

22 MR. LOWE: That don't overlap or

23 disclose anything about legal strategies, work

24 product or whatever?

25 MR. SMITH: Well, I --



Page 46

1 MR. LOWE: And the reason I say that,

2 you allowed him to answer earlier about a

3 performance question. So you're not backing up

4 now, are you?

5 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I'm concerned about

6 that. I --

7 MR. WILSON: Let me, if I can

8 shortcut this, not to interrupt you.

9 MR. LOWE: No, please do.

10 MR. WILSON: But all I asked was a

11 yes or no question about whether he ever has had

12 a discussion with a county commissioner in which

13 he received some sort of a negative evaluation

14 of his performance. I didn't ask for the

15 substance, just did the conversation express

16 this, yes or no.

17 MR. SMITH: All right. No objection

18 to a yes/no answer to that question.

19 A. You have to put a time frame on it,

20 before when?

21 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Well, I initially

22 asked from the time that you started work for

23 the county as an assistant county attorney up

24 through April 1st of 2013.

25 A. I don't recall ever having received



Page 47

1 an oral --

2 MR. SMITH: We were looking for a yes

3 or no, I think.

4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

5 MR. SMITH: No, I'm only pointing out

6 my concern is beyond yes or no.

7 MR. WILSON: Well, sorry. Yes, no or

8 I don't recall, I think, would be acceptable.

9 MR. SMITH: It would.

10 A. I don't recall any.

11 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Prior to April 2 of

12 2013, did you believe that you had a good

13 working relationship with the commissioners?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you, prior to April 1st of 2013,

16 work with outside attorneys for Jefferson

17 County?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Often, not often?

20 A. All day, every day.

21 Q. On a variety of different matters?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. From a variety of different firms?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have any reason to believe



Page 48

1 that any of them prior to April 1st of 2013

2 questioned your abilities or competence?


4 privilege.

5 MR. WILSON: Just a yes or no?

6 MR. LOWE: Do you have a problem with

7 him answering yes or no to that?

8 MR. SMITH: Not just yes or no.

9 A. Please restate. I'm sorry.

10 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Sure. Prior to

11 April 2nd of 2013, do you have any reason to

12 believe that any of the outside lawyers you

13 worked with had complaints about your abilities

14 or competence?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Before April 2 of 2013, had you been

17 notified by anyone that your management of

18 outside lawyers was deficient in any way?

19 MR. SMITH: Sorry, just a second.

20 Will you read that back to me, please? I'm

21 sorry.

22 (Whereupon, the question was

23 read.)

24 MR. SMITH: Anything other than a

25 yes/no, I'd object to on the basis of privilege.



Page 49

1 THE WITNESS: Let me talk to Clay a

2 moment.

3 MR. WILSON: Of course.

4 MR. LOWE: Do we need to get up, talk

5 about it?

6 THE WITNESS: Yeah.


8 had, 10:50 a.m. - 11:06 a.m.)

9 MR. WILSON: I think we might have to

10 have the last question read.

11 (Whereupon, the question was

12 read.)

13 MR. LOWE: That's a yes or no

14 question.

15 MR. SMITH: And for the record, the

16 yes or no aspect is important but not

17 determinative for me. There could be concerns

18 based on the content of the question alone.

19 This question we do not assert privilege on.

20 A. You have asked me if there was

21 concerns about my management of outside law

22 firms?

23 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Correct.

24 A. You have not asked me if there were

25 concerns about outside law firms?



Page 50

1 Q. Correct.

2 A. About my management of firms, no,

3 there would have been no --

4 (Whereupon, Sewell Exhibit 2 was

5 marked for identification, a copy of

6 which is attached hereto.)

7 Q. Let me show you what I've marked as

8 Exhibit 2, which is a letter to you titled Re:

9 Ongoing performance deficiencies dated April 2,

10 2013 from David Carrington.

11 It's always good to give counsel

12 copies first.

13 Do you recall receiving a copy of a

14 letter mostly like this on April 2nd, 2013?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Okay. Let me ask you just a couple

17 of things. If you see under item three and

18 under item six, there's the word redacted?

19 A. Uh-huh (INDICATING AFFIRMATIVE). I

20 see it.

21 Q. I take it that the -- well, forget

22 what I take. Did the version that you got on

23 April 2nd have the words "redacted" under items

24 three and six?

25 A. No.



Page 51

1 Q. And where the word "redacted" now

2 appears, was there some additional text?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the version that you received on

5 April 2nd have the word "confidential" on the

6 bottom of each of the two pages?

7 A. I don't think so. I really don't

8 remember, but --

9 Q. Do you have a copy of that memorandum

10 with you?

11 A. Not with me.

12 Q. Does your counsel have one?

13 A. Probably.

14 Q. Would you take a look at the original

15 and just tell me if the word "confidential" was

16 on the bottom of page one or page two?

17 A. It is not.

18 Q. How did you receive this letter?

19 A. It was in an envelope -- or excuse

20 me, in an envelope. When I returned, I went to

21 lunch that day, I had a late lunch, I don't

22 remember why, and got back in a little bit late,

23 later than normal, and it was in an envelope,

24 I think, in my chair in my office, just the

25 envelope.



Page 52

1 Q. Sitting on your chair or on your desk

2 somewhere?

3 A. Uh-huh (INDICATING AFFIRMATIVE).

4 Q. Somewhere in your office?

5 A. I think it was in my -- I think it

6 was in my chair.

7 Q. Are you familiar with the -- you're

8 familiar with the letter, I guess? You've seen

9 it, you read it on April 2nd?

10 A. I read it, yes, when I returned from

11 lunch that afternoon.

12 Q. And you had a discussion that

13 afternoon with Commissioner Carrington and

14 Commissioner Little-Brown about it?

15 A. I had a discussion, yes. I had a

16 meeting that I was asked to attend that

17 afternoon.

18 Q. With the two of them?

19 A. She was -- well, yes.

20 Q. You were going to say she was

21 something?

22 A. She was not there for the entire

23 meeting.

24 Q. Oh. Was she there at the beginning?

25 A. She was in and out, and I don't



Page 53

1 remember. I don't remember when she was in and

2 when she was -- but she was in and out.

3 Q. Was the purpose of the meeting to

4 discuss the contents of the letter?

5 A. That was my understanding.

6 Q. And, in fact, was that what happened?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, prior to receiving this letter,

9 had any of the commissioners raised with you any

10 of the issues contained in the letter?

11 A. Let me look at this a moment. (PAUSE)

12 Not that I can recall.

13 Q. Do you know what the subject of item

14 six was?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you think you can describe the

17 subject without revealing any legal advice

18 sought or given?

19 A. I would need to read it. I just

20 don't remember, but we have -- if someone has a

21 copy, an unredacted copy, I'll be happy to read

22 it.

23 MR. LOWE: You want him to do that?

24 MR. SMITH: Is that what your

25 question is?



Page 54

1 MR. WILSON: Well, yes. If there's a

2 copy available to him that his counsel has,

3 then, yes, I would like him to read it, and then

4 the question will be if he thinks he can

5 describe the subject matter without revealing

6 any legal advice. So that's still a yes or no.

7 MR. LOWE: Are you formulating your

8 objection, David, or can he answer.

9 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I'm retrieving --

10 wait, please. (PAUSE)

11 Let me see yours -- I can't put my

12 hands on the one in my jacket. Thank you. The

13 question is?

14 MR. WILSON: Whether he thinks that

15 he can describe the subject matter of item six

16 without revealing any privileged information.

17 MR. SMITH: Yeah. I do think that --

18 not intentionally, I know there was a different

19 phrasing in the question. I think the question

20 before did say legal advice. And the privilege

21 concern here would be over an answer that gets

22 to any aspects of whether there is legal advice

23 or work product there, but he -- he can answer

24 that question, that one question.

25 MR. WILSON: All I've asked is one



Page 55

1 question, and it's a yes or no or I don't know.

2 MR. SMITH: Read the question again.

3 (Whereupon the question was

4 read.)

5 MR. SMITH: That question may be

6 answered. Thank you.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) So without revealing

9 any legal advice, how would you describe the

10 subject of item number six?

11 A. May I see it back?

12 MR. SMITH: Rowan, my concern, and

13 I'm happy to have some dialogue about what the

14 right way to deal with this is, but that's a

15 county document. It's a document that would

16 fall within the scope of the third request for

17 production. The agreement that we have is that

18 by August the 30th we'll provide a privilege log

19 about the documents being produced, and so

20 the -- you know, having this witness testify

21 about the -- what would be equivalent to

22 privilege log information that we would provide

23 in order to give a sufficient indication to

24 indicate why we're objecting, to have the

25 witness do that now is inconsistent with the



Page 56

1 schedule we have established for articulating

2 these privilege objections to documents. And so

3 -- so until we reach the point in our document

4 production schedule where we're called on to

5 articulate privilege objections, I don't know of

6 anything that's more appropriate for me to do

7 than to assert privilege based on what I know so

8 far, and not have testimony where I've redacted

9 it based on privilege already. So with that --

10 with that -- I'll be glad to hear you if you

11 have a different idea about it.

12 MR. WILSON: Well, it's certainly

13 news to me that if a non-party pursuant to a

14 subpoena produces a document you can object to

15 examination about it and instruct the witness

16 not to answer on the ground that you're going to

17 produce it later pursuant to the schedule. So

18 I -- that's foreign to me. It seems to me the

19 witness produced this document --

20 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, it's foreign

21 what?

22 MR. WILSON: To me. The witness

23 produced this document. The county can produce

24 it on the schedule that we agreed to, but that

25 doesn't restrict in any way my ability -- the



Page 57

1 fact that we have a schedule doesn't restrict my

2 ability to ask the witness about it.

3 If you're objecting on the ground

4 that you don't believe anyone or this witness

5 can describe the subject matter without

6 revealing attorney/client information, you can

7 instruct him on that ground, but that has

8 nothing to do with any schedule we've

9 established.

10 MR. SMITH: Well, without addressing

11 the last point, that would be my concern that

12 the witness could do that. And therefore -- I'm

13 not going to instruct the witness at any time

14 today because I don't have that authority, but I

15 can assert the privilege as a concern that we

16 have over addressing these redacted parts of

17 this memo and we do that.

18 MR. WILSON: All right.

19 MR. LOWE: Can you restate your

20 question for us, please?

21 MR. WILSON: Well, let me have the

22 question back to make sure that Mr. Smith is

23 going to assert that the county has a privilege

24 that would interfere with this answer, and then

25 I'll pose a question after that.



Page 58

1 (Whereupon, the question was read.)

2 MR. SMITH: I'm asserting the

3 privilege objection to it.

4 MR. LOWE: The question specifically

5 says don't reveal any privilege.

6 MR. WILSON: It does, and the witness

7 has said he believes that he can, he's a pretty

8 experienced attorney, describe the subject

9 matter without revealing any privileged

10 information and that's what the Federal Rules

11 require one to do, but if the county's insisting

12 that -- I understand, Mr. Lowe, that you need to

13 protect your client and if the county is making

14 an objection, however unreasonable, the prudent

15 thing to do is to instruct your witness not to

16 answer.

17 MR. LOWE: Thank you. We'll have to

18 be prudent and direct him not to answer then,

19 although I also disagree with the validity of

20 the objection.

21 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Do you recall

22 whether item six has anything to do with the

23 county bankruptcy?

24 A. I recall that.

25 Q. And does it?



Page 59

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you recall whether item six has

3 anything to do with the resolution of

4 organization?

5 A. I -- no.

6 Q. You don't recall whether it does or

7 you do recall and it doesn't have anything to do

8 with it?

9 A. The latter.

10 Q. Do you recall whether item six

11 concerns an alleged performance deficiency on

12 your part?

13 A. I recall.

14 Q. And does it?

15 A. No. In my judgment, no.

16 Q. Do you recall whether item six,

17 whether you discussed item six with

18 Commissioners Carrington and Little-Brown during

19 the meeting you had on April 2nd?

20 A. I do recall that I did.

21 Q. Do you recall whether Commissioner

22 Carrington or Commissioner Little-Brown

23 indicated that they were mistaken, or

24 Commissioner Carrington was mistaken about

25 whatever he wrote concerning item number six.



Page 60

1 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, I need to hear

2 that again.


4 read.)

5 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. I'm going to

6 have to confer for a second.

7 MR. WILSON: We don't even know what

8 the subject of item six is.

9 (Whereupon, an off-the-record

10 discussion was had.)

11 MR. SMITH: Well, the question

12 about -- of whether the commissioners said they

13 were mistaken in item six where item six is

14 redacted entirely, we object to that as invading

15 the privilege. I don't know the answer, but

16 where we have redacted based on privilege

17 paragraph six, we think that this question

18 requires assertion of privilege.

19 MR. LOWE: Just so I'm clear, you're

20 saying any answer he may give you regarding

21 questions about item number six would

22 necessarily involve privileged information and

23 therefore you object, so therefore I should

24 direct him not to answer? That sounds like what

25 you're saying.



Page 61

1 MR. SMITH: Well, I mean, I have to

2 leave directions to the witness to you

3 entirely.

4 MR. LOWE: Right, but I want to make

5 sure you're saying any answer he gives with

6 regard to questions to number six you feel would

7 be -- would reveal privilege?

8 MR. SMITH: No, I have already

9 allowed a couple of questions about six to be

10 answered, and so I'm trying to go one question

11 at a time and be as careful as I know how to

12 be. You know, the risk is on us if we aren't

13 asserting the privilege where we should, then I

14 know we'll hear that there's been a waiver and

15 -- at least assume that would be a part of what

16 course these issues run. And so on the fly I'm

17 doing the best I know how to be selective and

18 exercise the best judgment I'm capable of. So

19 that one question, yes, we'll assert the

20 privilege as to that potential response.

21 MR. WILSON: So to be clear, you're

22 going to assert that the county has a privilege

23 that prevents me from knowing, without knowing

24 what item six was, whether there was any

25 retraction during subsequent discussion about



Page 62

1 item six, even though I don't know what it is?

2 MR. SMITH: Well, I have to

3 acknowledge that that's an interesting question

4 and one that I can't say I'm not perplexed a

5 little by, but I can envision scenarios where

6 asking questions around and about it where the

7 essence of it, the heart of it is privileged

8 material, invades that -- you know, inevitably

9 provides that information. So -- so that's what

10 I know to do on that one question.

11 MR. WILSON: Okay. So I assume there

12 is then an instruction?

13 MR. LOWE: My hands are tied.

14 MR. WILSON: Yeah. Understood.

15 MR. LOWE: I instruct him not to

16 answer.

17 MR. WILSON: Understood.

18 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) When you received

19 the memorandum, April 2 memorandum, did anyone

20 tell you that it was -- contained

21 attorney/client privileged information?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did anyone tell you that it contained

24 attorney work product information?

25 A. No.



Page 63

1 Q. Did you have an understanding that

2 the April 2nd memorandum prepared by -- well,

3 sent by Mr. Carrington, authored by

4 Mr. Carrington, was prepared in anticipation of

5 litigation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. During the conversation you had with

8 Commissioner Carrington and Commissioner

9 Little-Brown, did either of them tell you that

10 information in the April 2nd memorandum was

11 attorney/client privileged?

12 MR. SMITH: Objection. To the extent

13 that these questions -- I'm trying not to

14 intrude, I assure you, but where these questions

15 are did your client, Mr. Sewell's client, talk

16 to him about the privilege in a communication,

17 then -- which I acknowledge would be, you know,

18 often it's the lawyer who brings up the

19 privilege more than the client, but it could be

20 either way, that the questions about whether

21 they raised or asserted or invoked the privilege

22 for these conversations I think would be

23 privileged.

24 MR. WILSON: All right. So I take it

25 your -- I understand your objection is one of



Page 64

1 privilege.

2 MR. SMITH: And I mean it to refer

3 back to these last three or four questions.

4 MR. WILSON: So that you don't want

5 me -- well, you believe I'm not entitled to

6 inquire as to whether anyone -- well,

7 Mr. Carrington or Mrs. Little-Brown said that

8 the memorandum was privileged?

9 MR. SMITH: We want to be careful.

10 We'll confer about it.

11 MR. WILSON: Okay.


13 had, 11:29 a.m. - 11:41 a.m.)

14 MR. SMITH: Could we have the

15 question read back?


17 MR. SMITH: Object on privileged

18 discussions between the attorney and the client

19 about the privilege.


21 MR. LOWE: Although that's not the

22 question that was asked, I'll direct you not to

23 answer out of an abundance of caution.

24 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Mr. Sewell, did

25 anyone tell you that the April 2nd letter, that



Page 65

1 you were expected to keep it confidential?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When you went to the committee

4 hearing on April 12, did you feel free to

5 discuss its contents if you so chose?

6 A. Sure.

7 Q. Up till yesterday, did you have any

8 reason to believe that the April 2nd memorandum

9 from Mr. Carrington was something that you

10 couldn't tell other people about?

11 MR. SMITH: Objection, calls for a

12 legal conclusion from the witness.

13 MR. WILSON: I think that's just a

14 form objection.

15 MR. SMITH: Yeah, it is.

16 MR. LOWE: It sounds like it. It

17 wasn't a privilege objection, so you can answer.

18 A. Would you repeat it?

19 MR. LOWE: I'm sorry?

20 THE WITNESS: Repeat it.


22 MR. LOWE: You can answer that.

23 A. No.

24 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) when you read the --

25 first read the April 2nd, 2013 memorandum, did



Page 66

1 you understand that the -- Mr. Carrington was

2 seeking legal advice from you?

3 A. I did not understand that.

4 Q. When you met with Mr. Carrington and

5 Mrs. Little-Brown that afternoon, April 2nd, did

6 you understand that they were seeking legal

7 advice from you in the course of your

8 discussion?

9 MR. SMITH: Objection. And the

10 question, by seeking legal advice, do you mean

11 to include covering privileged matters?

12 MR. WILSON: No, I think I've asked

13 something different.

14 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Did you understand

15 that the purpose of them having a conversation

16 with you was to seek legal advice?

17 A. I'm -- that's a yes or no answer?

18 MR. SMITH: I just have to note on

19 the record that if the conversation involved

20 matters that are privileged, then the privilege

21 objection is still properly asserted whether the

22 purpose was to seek legal advice or not if there

23 is a privileged matter being -- that is the

24 subject.

25 MR. WILSON: I think you're



Page 67

1 addressing a question I haven't asked.

2 MR. SMITH: Well, I'm -- you know,

3 the deposition is something that I would like to

4 have addressed more in advance. I've got --

5 I've been working on your document production,

6 I'm doing the best that I'm capable of of

7 hearing questions for the first time and making

8 judgments about privilege. I'm not trying to

9 obstruct. I -- I would like to see this

10 finished as well, but I've got the

11 responsibility to assert the privilege where it

12 may apply because I would be irresponsible if I

13 didn't.

14 MR. WILSON: Okay. But I still don't

15 understand whether as to this question you were

16 doing so or not.


18 MR. WILSON: You just need to say the

19 word privilege, and then we know what Mr. Lowe

20 will do, or don't say it and then we know what

21 he'll do.

22 MR. SMITH: Well, we can do it that

23 way. I've been trying to articulate some

24 grounds because it seemed more appropriate to

25 allow you to fashion a different question, but,



Page 68

1 no, I can just start saying privilege.

2 MR. WILSON: No, that isn't exactly

3 my point. It's that whatever it is you've said

4 so far with regard to this question, I don't

5 actually know which -- what you're saying.

6 MR. SMITH: I'm objecting -- I'm

7 sorry.

8 MR. WILSON: Go ahead. Sorry.

9 MR. SMITH: No, no. What I'm doing

10 my best to do is object by asserting the

11 privilege where the phrase "seeking legal

12 advice" has potential ambiguity and where other

13 elements of privilege, like work product or

14 references to privileged communications that are

15 provided in a document between the client and

16 the lawyer may be protected. And so, you know,

17 I haven't heard the questions before, I'm

18 hearing them now and I'm doing my best to --

19 MR. WILSON: That's what lawyers do.

20 MR. SMITH: I know.

21 MR. WILSON: All right. Let me try a

22 different question.

23 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) What did you

24 understand was the purpose of your meeting with

25 Mr. Carrington and Mrs. Little-Brown?



Page 69

1 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, what was the

2 purpose of what?

3 MR. WILSON: What did he understand

4 was the purpose of meeting them.

5 MR. SMITH: Meeting?

6 MR. WILSON: Yeah.

7 MR. SMITH: No objection.

8 A. To discuss the items in the April 2nd

9 letter from Carrington to me.

10 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Did you understand

11 that there was any other purpose going into the

12 meeting?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was there discussion about anything

15 other than the items in the memo during the

16 course of your conversation with Commissioners

17 Carrington and Little-Brown?

18 A. Probably.

19 Q. Was there any discussion with them

20 that concerned issues other than alleged

21 performance deficiencies?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were those other issues not mentioned

24 in the April 2nd memo?

25 A. They were not.



Page 70

1 Q. Can you describe generally the other

2 issues you discussed?

3 MR. SMITH: Objection to the extent

4 that response provides privileged information.

5 MR. LOWE: You'll have to use your

6 judgment on that one.

7 A. I can describe them. And I don't --

8 they don't -- I don't recall that any of the

9 other topics had anything to do with any of the

10 county's litigation or legal advice or legal

11 strategy. It was more a personal discussion

12 about various things and unrelated to my job

13 performance, unrelated to this memo and

14 unrelated to the county's legal issues.

15 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) That's fine. We can

16 leave it at that.

17 During your discussion with

18 Commissioners Little-Brown and Carrington, did

19 either of them tell you that you should keep

20 confidential what you had discussed?

21 A. That's a yes or no question?

22 Q. That's a yes or no.

23 MR. SMITH: No objection.

24 A. No.

25 Q. BY MR. WILSON) Now, after April 2nd,



Page 71

1 were you at some point placed on administrative

2 leave?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall when that happened?

5 A. The morning of April the 8th.

6 Q. And did you receive a written

7 notification?

8 A. I did.

9 MR. WILSON: I'm going to mark as

10 Sewell Exhibit 3 --

11 MR. ADELSTEIN: How many pages is

12 that exhibit?

13 MR. WILSON: It's a single page. Let

14 me identify it, Jay.

15 MR. ADELSTEIN: I think I have it.

16 MR. WILSON: Well, that's not going

17 to help me.

18 It's a single-page letter from David

19 Carrington to Jeff Sewell dated April 8, 2013.

20 (Whereupon, Sewell Exhibit 3 was



23 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Let me show you

24 what's been marked as Exhibit 3. And do you

25 recognize that document?



Page 72

1 A. I do.

2 Q. What is it?

3 A. It is a letter or memo -- letter, I

4 guess, from David Carrington to me dated April

5 the 8th, 2013, subject, administrative leave

6 with pay.

7 Q. When did you receive this?

8 A. Approximately probably 8:45 that

9 morning.

10 Q. Under what circumstance?

11 A. As I was stepping out of my vehicle

12 in the secure parking area under the county

13 courthouse I was met by the county's HR

14 director, human resources director, Demetrius

15 Taylor, and an armed security guard, and she

16 handed me the -- this letter.

17 Q. She, Ms. Taylor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know who the armed security

20 guard was?

21 A. I do. Long-term employee of the

22 county.

23 Q. And he's employed as a security

24 guard?

25 A. I think he still is, I --



Page 73

1 Q. Well, he was at the time?

2 A. He was at the time, he was in uniform

3 with a gun.

4 Q. Do you think that was an appropriate

5 way to put you on administrative leave?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you pose any security threat to

8 the county?

9 A. I don't think so.

10 Q. And at the time you didn't think you

11 did?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you taken aback?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If you look at Exhibit 3, it starts

16 out, in my capacity as your appointing authority

17 I'm placing you on administrative leave with pay

18 effective immediately until further notice.

19 Was Commissioner Carrington your

20 appointing authority?

21 A. Depends on what source of law you

22 look at.

23 Q. If you look at the resolution of

24 organization dated November 10th, 2010, is

25 Commissioner Carrington your appointing



Page 74

1 authority?

2 A. Under that document, that document

3 designated him, I believe, and I would need to

4 refresh myself on that, because I think that

5 document in one of its forms designated me as

6 appointing authority. I need to go back and

7 look at that, but I'm not certain under Alabama

8 law, a single commissioner would be an

9 appointing authority over the county attorney,

10 despite what a resolution might say.

11 Q. Do you recall whether the resolution

12 of organization dated November 10th, 2010 says

13 that the county attorney shall report to the

14 county commission as a whole?

15 A. I do recall that. That would be

16 consistent with Alabama law.

17 Q. When you were placed on

18 administrative leave on April the 8th, did you

19 have any question in your own mind about the

20 validity of Commissioner Carrington's action?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. And did you express that to the

23 commission during the committee meeting on April

24 12th, 2013?

25 A. Yes.



Page 75

1 Q. Did Ms. Taylor, when she gave you the

2 letter that's been marked as Exhibit 3, tell you

3 that it was confidential?

4 A. I do not believe so, no.

5 Q. And when you received it, did you

6 believe you were free to disclose it as you saw

7 fit?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. During the -- during your discussion

10 with Commissioners Carrington and Little-Brown

11 on April 2nd, do you recall there being any

12 discussion about the bankruptcy?

13 A. Indirectly, yes. Briefly.

14 Q. Do you recall whether that discussion

15 concerned any suggestion that you had not

16 performed your duties in an acceptable manner?

17 A. No.

18 MR. SMITH: Objection. Assert

19 privilege on any discussion between you and your

20 client about the bankruptcy proceedings.


22 MR. LOWE: He had already answered,

23 so if he wants to move to strike it later --

24 MR. SMITH: He had answered?

25 I didn't hear what he said.



Page 76

1 MR. LOWE: Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: I thought I said no,

3 actually.

4 MR. WILSON: He said no.

5 MR. LOWE: Yeah, I can't hear any

6 better than he can.

7 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) When you look back

8 at Exhibit 3, the April 8th letter, were you

9 expecting it or were you expecting to be placed

10 on administrative leave with pay when you

11 arrived at work?

12 A. Absolutely not.

13 Q. When you received and read the

14 letter, did you have any understanding of why

15 you were being placed on administrative leave

16 with pay?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When you received and read the

19 letter, did you have any understanding that it

20 related to the bankruptcy in any way?

21 A. No.

22 Q. At some point, did you come to

23 understand that Commissioner Carrington believed

24 that the basis for placing you on administrative

25 leave with pay was related to the bankruptcy?



Page 77

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did Commissioner Carrington ever tell

3 you why you had been placed on administrative

4 leave with pay?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did any of the commissioners ever

7 tell you why you had been placed on

8 administrative leave with pay?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did any of them ever tell you why you

11 had been met with an armed security guard?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did Mr. Taylor have any explanation

14 for the basis of placing you on administrative

15 leave with pay?

16 A. No.

17 Q. To this day, do you have any

18 understanding of why you were placed on


20 A. No.

21 Q. At the April 12th, 2013 committee --

22 A. Let me -- let me correct my answer.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. I don't have an understanding, I have

25 a theory, but I don't have an understanding.



Page 78

1 Q. Well, let me ask you for your

2 theory.

3 MR. SMITH: His theory?

4 MR. LOWE: If you think it involves

5 revealing privileged information you shouldn't

6 do that, but --

7 MR. SMITH: The question was

8 incomplete. You were asking for his theory on

9 why he was placed on administrative --


11 MR. WILSON: Correct.

12 MR. SMITH: And in itself the

13 question is one thing if the answer involves

14 privileged information. We can only listen.

15 MR. LOWE: And I trust that if he

16 unintentionally reveals something you will alert

17 us to that and move to strike or whatever. It's

18 my understanding that this deposition is subject

19 to a confidentiality agreement anyway, so

20 nothing should leave this room. So if you can

21 answer that question without knowingly revealing

22 some privileged -- attorney/client privileged

23 information or work product, or anything of that

24 nature, then you can answer it.

25 A. All right. You had originally asked



Page 79

1 me if I had an understanding and I -- no one has

2 expressed to me why I was placed on leave with

3 pay, but the theory that I have is fairly

4 obvious that it was that placing me on leave

5 with pay was a -- was a reaction to the April

6 2nd memo.


8 April 12, 2013 county commission administrative

9 services committee meeting that you attended,

10 Commissioner Carrington stated that you were

11 placed on administrative leave with pay because

12 a majority of the commissioners felt he had not

13 acted in the best interests of his client, the

14 county, in bankruptcy settlement negotiations

15 with our creditors?

16 A. I don't -- that was a multi-hour

17 meeting. I don't recall those exact words. I'm

18 not saying he didn't say that, I just don't

19 recall it.

20 Q. Do you recall anything to that effect

21 or not?

22 A. Not really.

23 Q. Not really?

24 A. I'm not saying that it wasn't said, I

25 just don't remember. That was a long meeting.



Page 80

1 Q. Right, right. Prior to the April

2 12th, 2013 meeting, had any of the commissioners

3 told you that they felt you had not acted in the

4 best interests of the county in the bankruptcy

5 settlement negotiations?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you recall Commissioner Carrington

8 saying at that April 12th meeting that on

9 December 11th, 2012, during the first afternoon

10 of an intense three-day negotiating session with

11 a significant number of our creditors in New

12 York City, Mr. Sewell instructed our outside

13 counsel to stop negotiations, even though

14 Commissioner Stephens and I were present and

15 actively involved and some progress was being

16 made?

17 A. I recall him saying words to that

18 effect.

19 Q. Let me see if we can play you

20 something again from the audio recording of that

21 committee meeting, see if you can identify the

22 speaker.

23 (PLAYING RECORDING)

24 On December the 11th, 2012, during

25 the first afternoon of an intense three-day



Page 81

1 negotiation session with a significant number of

2 our creditors in New York City, Mr. Sewell

3 instructed our outside counsel to stop

4 negotiations, even though Commissioner Stephens

5 and I were present and actively involved and

6 some progress was being made. Fortunately our

7 outside counsel convinced Mr. Sewell later that

8 evening that his instructions were not in the

9 best interests of the county and the

10 negotiations proceeded for the next few days.

11 (RECORDING STOPPED.)

12 Can you identify that speaker?

13 A. That's David Carrington.

14 Q. Now, when representatives of the

15 county traveled to New York City in connection

16 with the bankruptcy, did they fly in private or

17 chartered planes or in commercial planes?

18 A. I can only answer that with my own

19 experience, and my own experience would be in a

20 commercial airliner. I don't know how -- you

21 know, I don't know. I have an assumption they

22 traveled in commercial airliners, but I don't --

23 I don't know that.

24 Q. Okay. Do you know in late 2012, how

25 many nonstop commercial flights there are from



Page 82

1 Birmingham to New York City?

2 A. I don't have any judgment of that.

3 Q. What time of day they leave, when

4 they arrive?

5 A. No, I don't know. I just don't know.

6 Q. Okay. Now, if I tell you that

7 Commissioner Stephens, on December 11th, 2012,

8 was testifying in front of Judge Smith, do you

9 know of any way he could get to New York City on

10 a commercial airline by that afternoon?

11 A. He was not in New York City. No,

12 there's no way.

13 Q. So you think Mr. Carrington is

14 mistaken when he says that on December 11th

15 Commissioner Stephens and he were in New York

16 City negotiating about the bankruptcy?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember an incident at all

19 like the one that Mr. Carrington described that

20 you instructed cessation of negotiations?

21 A. I would not characterize my

22 instruction as a cessation of negotiations.

23 I have memories of -- of giving instructions

24 to the outside counsel for sure.

25 Q. While commissioners were present



Page 83

1 negotiating?

2 A. Sure. Oh, absolutely. In some of

3 those negotiations I was present and there would

4 be times that I would, you know, instruct or ask

5 or -- certainly.

6 Q. And you viewed that as part of your

7 job?

8 A. Absolutely.

9 Q. And you think you had obligations

10 under the Rules of Professional Conduct to do

11 so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you were using your best judgment

14 when you did so?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. SMITH: Objection to leading.

17 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Were you using your

18 best judgment when doing so?

19 A. I was trying to.

20 Q. How much time elapsed between the

21 time you sent the April 2 memo that you and

22 Mr. Lawson and lawyers from Maynard Cooper

23 authored, sent it to the commission and the time

24 when you received the performance deficiencies

25 from Mr. Carrington?



Page 84

1 MR. SMITH: Objection to the

2 foundation of the question. You may answer.

3 A. Six hours.

4 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) How was the -- how

5 was the April 2nd memo that you co-authored

6 transmitted to the commission?

7 A. The same way all other memos that I

8 send to the commission, of which there are many,

9 would be delivered by my former secretary, Hope

10 Cockrell. She would have taken it around in an

11 envelope and put it in each commissioner's

12 office, or probably in their hands, is what they

13 preferred.

14 Q. So it was received in paper form?

15 A. Yes, and in their hand.

16 Q. And I think you testified that the

17 performance deficiencies memo that you received

18 was sitting on your desk or chair when you

19 returned from lunch?

20 A. It was about two o'clock that

21 afternoon. It was a late lunch.

22 Q. Now, do you recall telling the

23 commissioners at the committee hearing on April

24 12th that at the end of your meeting with

25 Commissioner Carrington and Commissioner



Page 85

1 Little-Brown, Commissioner Carrington said he

2 wanted to think about your request that he

3 withdraw the memorandum he had written?

4 A. He wanted to -- he wanted to -- well,

5 I'll pause for an objection here.

6 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. The question

7 was does he recall what Commissioner Carrington

8 said in the open hearing?

9 MR. WILSON: No.

10 MR. SMITH: No?

11 MR. WILSON: No. I'm not asking

12 about anything Commissioner Carrington said

13 directly.

14 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Do you recall that

15 at the open hearing you said that at the

16 conclusion of the meeting on April 2nd with

17 Commissioners Carrington and Little-Brown when

18 you asked Commissioner Carrington to withdraw

19 the April 2nd memorandum that he had written

20 about your performance deficiencies, he said he

21 wanted to sleep on it?

22 A. I do recall words to that effect,

23 yes.

24 Q. And did that in fact happen? Did

25 Mr. Carrington at the end of the meeting on the



Page 86

1 2nd of April say he wanted to sleep on your

2 request to withdraw the performance deficiencies

3 memo?

4 MR. LOWE: You can answer that.

5 A. He did. It was not -- it was not

6 just my request.

7 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) It was who else's

8 request?

9 A. The other person in the room.

10 Q. Commissioner Little-Brown?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also -- do you recall telling the

13 committee that you had prepared a written

14 response?

15 A. I think I recall that.

16 Q. Do you still have a copy of the

17 written response?

18 A. That I don't know. I don't have it

19 with me.

20 Q. Did you ever share the written

21 response with anyone?


23 Q. When you made remarks to the

24 committee, were you reading in part from the

25 written response?



Page 87

1 A. No, I was not. The written -- I did

2 draft a written response but I was never able to

3 deliver it. I was waiting until April the 8th.

4 That was my -- I had said I would wait till

5 April the 8th, but I never got in the building

6 that day.

7 Q. Where did you prepare the written

8 response?

9 A. On a laptop.

10 Q. In your office?

11 A. No. I don't have a laptop in my

12 office. I think I prepared it at home. I

13 don't -- I really don't remember. I may have --

14 you know, if I did it at my office I'm sure that

15 it can be retrieved from the county. I really

16 don't remember, but I probably would have done

17 that at home.

18 Q. At the April 12th, 2013 committee

19 meeting, do you recall Commissioner Bowman

20 saying words to the effect of every question I

21 have ever had from Mr. Sewell, he was

22 forthright, frank and honest with me in

23 everything he told me. I have never had an

24 occasion where he told me something misleading

25 or wrong. I trust him in his judgment. He has



Page 88

1 had 25 years' worth of unblemished service to

2 this governmental body?


4 Q. Now, during that meeting on April

5 12th, 2013, what action did the administrative

6 services committee take?

7 A. I believe that there was a vote

8 taken, a committee vote taken, on a resolution

9 that I don't recall if there was a written

10 resolution or a verbal resolution, to terminate

11 my employment. I think the vote was a

12 four-to-one vote to do so.

13 Q. And do you recall who the one was?

14 A. Bowman.

15 Q. At some point were you given the

16 chance to retire instead of being terminated?

17 A. I was -- I wouldn't characterize it

18 that way.

19 Q. Tell me how you would characterize

20 it.

21 A. Well, it was an involuntary

22 retirement, it was no choice. I was not given

23 any choice at all. It was I was going to be

24 separated, there was no -- it's like a choice

25 between, you know, bullet in the head or knife



Page 89

1 in the throat.

2 Q. I shouldn't ask which one you picked,

3 I guess.

4 If you had -- was there something to

5 which you agreed that ended up avoiding a full

6 commission vote?

7 A. That day there was no written

8 agreement. I think that day the -- well, I

9 think it was determined, let's just say, that

10 there needed to be a written agreement which

11 would take some time to prepare, couldn't be

12 done that quickly.

13 Q. Ultimately a written agreement was

14 prepared?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that is one of the three

17 documents you produced?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did anyone tell you that you were

20 to keep that written agreement confidential?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Is there, to your knowledge, a

23 confidentiality provision in it?

24 A. There is not.

25 Q. Do you feel free to share it as you



Page 90

1 see fit?

2 A. Sure.

3 MR. SMITH: I should say that to the

4 extent the agreement contains a commitment on

5 privilege, privilege is a kind of

6 confidentiality, and so I would note that for

7 the record.

8 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) All right. Let me

9 be clear. I was asking about whether you, as to

10 the document itself, you believe that document

11 is something that you must maintain in

12 confidence.

13 A. I believe it would be unlawful for me

14 to try to maintain it in confidence. It's

15 public record.

16 Q. Now, when you took over as county

17 attorney, were you aware that there was a

18 consent decree in place resulting in the U.S. V.

19 Jefferson County litigation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That the county was a party to?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you were aware there was -- this

24 was in late 2008, that there was an impending

25 trial on a motion for contempt?



Page 91

1 A. I don't recall. I don't remember

2 when the contempt proceedings got underway, when

3 the first motion, I just don't have any memory

4 of that, or that I wasn't aware, but I certainly

5 was aware of the consent decree.

6 Q. Do you remember that a trial had

7 started and then was suspended because of Judge

8 Smith's health for several years?

9 A. I do, I just don't remember what

10 year. I just don't have any temporal -- not

11 remembrance of what came first, which year it

12 started.

13 Q. Sure. By the time the trial resumed

14 in 2012, were you more familiar with the issues

15 involved than you had been immediately upon

16 becoming county attorney?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you -- say in 2012, were you

19 committed to bringing the county into compliance

20 with the consent decree?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you believe it was your

23 obligation to try to bring the county in

24 compliance with the consent decree?

25 A. Yes.



Page 92

1 Q. You understood the consent decree was

2 an order of the court?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you believe you have a

5 professional obligation to give advice to your

6 client, even if it is advice that your client

7 might not want to hear?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you think you have any special

10 obligations in view of the fact that your client

11 when you were county attorney was an

12 organization rather than an individual?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do the Alabama Rules of

15 Professional Conduct address that?

16 A. They do.

17 Q. And did you raise that with the

18 administrative services committee on the 12th of

19 April, 2013?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. Did you quote from Professional Rule

22 of Conduct 1.13?

23 A. I believe so.

24 Q. And the advisory committee?

25 A. I believe I did.



Page 93

1 Q. Do you remember telling them

2 something to the effect of that the rule --

3 rules comment reads, in a matter involving the

4 conduct of government officials a government

5 lawyer may have the authority to question such

6 conduct more extensively than that of a lawyer

7 for a private organization in a similar

8 circumstance?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you recall telling the county

11 commissioners on April 12th, 2013 that it was

12 your job to notify you if I think any of you are

13 drifting away from following the law or if a

14 county document needs to be changed, and I do

15 believe it needs to be changed?

16 A. I recall that.

17 Q. What document were you talking about

18 when you said I do believe it needs to be

19 changed?

20 A. The document that was changed last

21 week, the resolution of organization.

22 Q. When you say it was changed last

23 week, your understanding is the county adopted a

24 new resolution of organization?

25 A. Yeah. I have not read it, but I read



Page 94

1 a newspaper article that it had occurred last

2 week -- I believe it was last week.

3 Q. Is that new resolution of

4 organization a public document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So any citizen could acquire it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could request it and obtain it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You haven't read it?

11 A. I have not.

12 Q. Now, in your April 2nd memorandum you

13 were proposing a change to the resolution of

14 organization; is that correct?

15 MR. LOWE: Do we have an objection to

16 that?

17 MR. SMITH: Yeah. Are you about to

18 be on this for a minute, resolution, that

19 process?

20 MR. WILSON: I don't know.

21 MR. SMITH: All right. Without a

22 clear answer, then, I'd like to talk, I'd like

23 to confer for a minute about --

24 MR. WILSON: Sure.




Page 95

1 had, 12:18 p.m. - 12:32 p.m.)

2 MR. SMITH: Can you -- was there a

3 question that was at the very end?


5 read.)

6 MR. SMITH: The beginning of that was

7 and in your April 2nd memorandum you were

8 proposing?


10 MR. SMITH: We object and assert

11 privilege.

12 MR. LOWE: Then I must direct him not

13 to answer.


15 MR. SMITH: This is the April 2nd

16 memo that we've been talking about. There is

17 more than one April 2nd memo; right?

18 MR. WILSON: There's only one that he

19 authored.

20 MR. SMITH: Yes, and that's the

21 one --

22 MR. WILSON: That's the one we're

23 talking about.

24 MR. SMITH: All right. So --




Page 96

1 April 12 committee meeting telling the

2 commissioners, I can't violate Alabama law

3 because one commissioner tells me who I can't

4 talk to and we can't have a situation where one

5 commissioner is trying to control information to

6 the four of you and control your access to the

7 county's lawyers?

8 A. Yes, I recall that.

9 Q. Who is the one commissioner you were

10 talking about?

11 A. Carrington.

12 Q. Did you also tell the commissioners

13 that you believe that in 1997 when the

14 commission was voting on the sewer debt, that

15 you believed that several of them didn't know

16 what they were voting on?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you recall telling them at the

19 April 12th meeting that you believed that when

20 the commissioners were voting in 2002, 2003 on

21 the refinancing of the sewer debt, that several

22 of them didn't know what they were voting on?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And particular commissioners that you

25 called out by name were ones who had ended up



Page 97

1 convicted of felonies?

2 A. Some of them.

3 Q. And did you say at the April 12th,

4 2013 meeting with reference to the memo that you

5 wrote on April 2nd that you were determined you

6 were not going to see that mistake made again?

7 A. I believe that I said that.

8 Q. Do you think there is any connection

9 between the Martin-Bryant plaintiffs' noticing

10 of your deposition and the recent amendment to

11 the resolution of organization?

12 MR. LOWE: Does that ask him to

13 speculate as to what your intentions were in

14 noticing his deposition?

15 MR. WILSON: No. I'm sorry. What --

16 MR. LOWE: I'm not real clear on

17 that.

18 MR. WILSON: Sure.

19 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Do you have any --

20 do you have any view as to whether the fact of

21 the receipt of notice for your deposition

22 influenced the county in its decision to adopt a

23 new resolution of organization?

24 MR. SMITH: Objection, calls for

25 speculation. And if it involves privilege, then



Page 98

1 I have an objection, but I don't know.

2 MR. WILSON: Well, I think the notice

3 came after his termination.

4 MR. LOWE: Yeah, it is asking him to

5 speculate, but he can speculate.

6 MR. WILSON: Well, it's a form

7 objection, so --

8 MR. LOWE: I mean, it's a form

9 objection, you're correct.

10 A. I have such a speculation, yes.

11 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) When did that occur

12 to you?

13 A. When I learned of the effort to go

14 and -- to amend the resolution of organization,

15 I think I heard of it in the media, yeah, that

16 occurred to me.

17 Q. Sometime in the last couple of weeks?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Now, thinking back over your

20 testimony today, is there anything as to which

21 you've testified that you would not like to have

22 in the public record?

23 A. Let me talk to Clay about that for a

24 moment if I may.

25 MR. WILSON: Of course.



Page 99

1 THE WITNESS: Let me, before we go,

2 in the public record, you mean in the federal

3 court trial --

4 MR. WILSON: Yeah, unfiled, unsealed

5 in federal court.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 MR. LOWE: That he would like or that

8 is --

9 THE WITNESS: Not like.

10 MR. LOWE: You think is legally

11 improper or confidential?

12 MR. WILSON: No, no, I'm not asking

13 about legally, just his own personal --

14 MR. LOWE: Just his own personal

15 belief?

16 MR. WILSON: Yes. Is there anything

17 here that you would say to yourself, gee, if I

18 could avoid having this filed in federal court,

19 that would be better for me?

20 THE WITNESS: Give me just a minute.


22 had, 12:36 p.m. - 12:40 p.m.)

23 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the

24 question one more time?

25 MR. WILSON: Sure, sure.



Page 100

1 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) Thinking about your

2 testimony today, is there any portion of it that

3 you would prefer not be available to the public

4 by way of a file in Federal Court?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Let me go back to ask you for a

7 moment about the April 2, 2013 performance

8 deficiencies memorandum.

9 MR. LOWE: Exhibit 2.

10 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) I think it's Exhibit

11 2. Do you believe any of these criticisms is

12 valid?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you tell Commissioner Carrington

15 and Commissioner Little-Brown that?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. And did you ask Commissioner

18 Carrington to withdraw this?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. And did Commissioner Little-Brown ask

21 the same thing?

22 A. She did.

23 MR. WILSON: I have nothing further.

24 Thank you for your time.

25 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.



Page 101

1 MR. WILSON: I don't know if the

2 United States has any.

3 MR. ADELSTEIN: The United States

4 does not have any questions.

5 MR. SMITH: We're going to have a lot

6 of questions and we'd like to talk about what --

7 what is best for doing that efficiently. I

8 suggest we take a lunch break and if there is a

9 preferred idea, I'm happy to talk about it.

10 MR. WILSON: That's -- I have nothing

11 to say.

12 MR. SMITH: You have -- does that

13 mean you don't have any problem with that?

14 MR. WILSON: I'm here, the deposition

15 has been noticed, you have a right to

16 cross-examine and everybody's probably hungry,

17 but it's not my witness. My option is I can

18 stay for your questions or I can leave.

19 MR. SMITH: Indeed.

20 MR. LOWE: Do we have that option?

21 MR. SMITH: Well, in any event, if

22 it's reasonable, how about taking an hour and be

23 back at a quarter till? Is that okay?

24 MR. WILSON: Okay here.

25 MR. LOWE: I don't think we have any



Page 102

1 choice.

2 MR. MURRILL: There will be no

3 questions for the sheriff's office.

4 MR. ADELSTEIN: Could you repeat what

5 time you would like to reconvene?

6 MR. LOWE: 1:45 Central.

7 MR. SMITH: Thanks.

8 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was

9 had, 12:42 p.m. - 1:46 p.m.)

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you very much for

11 the break, and I'll start with my questions.

12 Initially let me say -- and I will

13 refer to you as Mr. Sewell -- that based on this

14 morning's testimony I've reviewed what I intend

15 to cover and I'm going to try to make my best

16 judgment about what to cover. It's not my

17 intention to elicit any privileged information

18 from you, so if you would, please, remember your

19 independent responsibility, and if there is a

20 question that would draw privileged information

21 out I'd ask that you raise this issue and we

22 will revolve it as best we can before you

23 answer. Is that okay?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

25 EXAMINATION



Page 103

1 BY MR. SMITH:

2 Q. While you worked for Jefferson

3 County, the county was at all times the client

4 in your attorney/client relationship; is that

5 right?

6 MR. LOWE: Well, that's vague and

7 overbroad. The only client, the client, a

8 client, what are you talking about?

9 MR. SMITH: I think I said it was

10 always the client.

11 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) It was the client,

12 wasn't it?

13 A. It was a client.

14 Q. Okay. And who were the others?

15 A. The general retirement system, the

16 county, the election commission, probate judges,

17 tax collectors, tax assessors, coroners.

18 MR. LOWE: And those are just what he

19 recalls at the moment.

20 A. Right.

21 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) But as between -- in

22 terms of your work for the county, the Jefferson

23 County Commission was the voice of the county as

24 your client; is that right?

25 A. Not necessarily. The Jefferson



Page 104

1 County Commission is the governing body of the

2 county.

3 Q. And --

4 A. But you have -- today you have county

5 managers, you have other -- you have department

6 heads, you have other elected officials. I

7 don't think it's as simple as --

8 MR. LOWE: Yeah. I think we could

9 term that as a legal question, too, although

10 he's certainly qualified to answer legal

11 questions perhaps. But who's the client in that

12 situation? That's a legal question and it --

13 and I think we both know that the entity itself

14 is the client, not the individual or collective

15 commission.

16 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Throughout your time

17 at the county, Jefferson County was your

18 employer; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And your service in the capacity of

21 county attorney only existed by virtue of that

22 employment as an employee there; is that right?

23 A. I don't think I understand your

24 question. I mean --

25 Q. Were you ever hired as outside



Page 105

1 counsel?

2 A. By Jefferson County?

3 Q. By Jefferson County.

4 A. No.

5 Q. So all of your service as an attorney

6 of Jefferson County was in the capacity as an

7 employee; is that right?

8 A. I think that would be right -- as

9 opposed to a contractor?

10 Q. As opposed to outside counsel or

11 non-employees?

12 A. Yeah. That would be -- I think so.

13 MR. SMITH: Mark that as an exhibit.

14 THE REPORTER: Do you want to

15 continue the numbering?

16 MR. SMITH: No, I'll make that County

17 1, if that's okay.

18 (Whereupon, County Exhibit 1 was



21 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Is this the

22 resolution of organization that was in place in

23 Jefferson County from November 10th, 2010 until

24 July 25th of this year?

25 A. It appears to be.



Page 106

1 Q. And what are the provisions that

2 establish your position or your place in the

3 organization?

4 A. I'm sorry, repeat that.

5 Q. What part of the resolution provides

6 for your place in the organization?

7 A. Paragraph -- excuse me, page four,

8 midway down the page has the sentence, the

9 at-will county attorney shall report to the

10 commission as a whole. Is that what you're

11 referring to?

12 Q. Well, that's what I see as a

13 provision that has you placed in the

14 organization. Are there any others -- you

15 meaning the county attorney?

16 A. Well, I'm not the county attorney

17 anymore, but --

18 Q. No, I -- my questions relate to when

19 you were.

20 A. The -- I think the term county

21 attorney is mentioned in several other places in

22 that document. I have not sat -- you want me to

23 read the document?

24 Q. Do you agree that you were an at-will

25 employee?



Page 107

1 A. Of Jefferson County?

2 Q. Of Jefferson County.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is there any provision in the

5 resolution of organization -- strike that.

6 Is the president of the commission

7 the appointing authority of the legal

8 department?

9 A. This document suggests that the

10 answer to that question would be yes, would

11 serve as an appointing authority over the county

12 attorney's office.

13 Q. And when this document was approved,

14 you were the county attorney?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I believe there were questions asked

17 earlier about an issue of your compensation in

18 October, November 2012. Do you remember being

19 asked about that?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. And my memory of your testimony, and

22 to some extent my notes, were that Commissioner

23 Carrington made a statement quoted in the media

24 that was favorable toward your contribution to

25 the county. Is that an accurate paraphrase?



Page 108

1 A. I think so.

2 Q. Let me give you what I've marked as

3 County 2. And I don't mean to throw that at

4 you.

5 A. That's okay.

6 MR. ADELSTEIN: Excuse me, could you

7 tell me how many pages it is and what the title

8 of the document is?




12 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) You've got County

13 Exhibit 2 there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that a newspaper article from

16 AL.com, October 18?

17 MR. LOWE: Are you asking him to

18 authenticate an AL.com article or comment on the

19 hearsay contained therein, or where are we going

20 with this?

21 MR. SMITH: Well, it's similar to

22 Sewell 1, which was, you know, an article from

23 AL.com. So I'm not asking him to authenticate

24 it.

25 MR. LOWE: Okay.



Page 109

1 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Did you read this

2 article?

3 A. Probably.

4 Q. And as I understood earlier, you read

5 some of the media coverage at that time because

6 you were familiar with Mr. Carrington's

7 statement?

8 A. Well, I was -- I was in the meeting

9 present when the statement was made.

10 Q. And so was this a topic at the county

11 courthouse in the legal department, your -- your

12 demand for a pay increase in October of 2012?

13 MR. WILSON: Objection, form.

14 MR. LOWE: Yeah, same objection.

15 A. It's also vague. Is this a topic in

16 the legal department or -- I'm unclear as to

17 where exactly this was a topic. You talking

18 about with the commission, the county in

19 general, the legal department, if you can be

20 more specific?

21 Q. Sure, let me try to ask a better

22 question.

23 MR. ADELSTEIN: Could I also

24 interject, could you give the date, October

25 18th, what year, and possibly the style of the



Page 110

1 article so I can access it?

2 MR. SMITH: Sure. It's October the

3 18th of 2012, AL.com, the article's title is

4 "Jefferson County's top lawyer who makes

5 $375,000 could leave in dispute over pay raise."


7 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Now, when we look at

8 the article there has been some reference to --

9 there is reference, I'll read from it. It says,

10 it is unclear when Sewell might leave, but boxes

11 in his office were packed this week and his desk

12 was clean. However, talks to resolve the pay

13 dispute were expected to continue through next

14 week.

15 My question to you is do you regard

16 this as a cordial circumstance between you and

17 the commission, or would you regard it as more

18 of a controversy?

19 MR. LOWE: Well, what circumstance

20 are you talking about? Having boxes in his

21 office? That's what you read.

22 MR. SMITH: Yes, having boxed up his

23 office over a pay increase demand.

24 MR. LOWE: That may not be his

25 interpretation of why there were boxes packed up



Page 111

1 in his office. You're asking him to comment on

2 something some reporter gleaned from a

3 conversation apparently with someone other than

4 Mr. Sewell.

5 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. Can you answer

6 the question?

7 A. I don't regard it as cordial or

8 confrontational. I've had boxes packed in my

9 office for 25 years, in the hallway, everywhere,

10 just like your office.

11 Q. I'm sure there were boxes somewhere,

12 but -- but is it correct that you situated your

13 office to vacate it?

14 A. No.

15 Q. That it was packed up?

16 A. No, no. If I had intended to vacate

17 my office, it would have been vacated.

18 Q. Well, I didn't ask if you intended to

19 vacate, I was asking whether it was situated so

20 that you would be able to vacate it if you

21 didn't get the pay increase you were demanding.

22 MR. WILSON: Objection.

23 A. I don't really follow your question.

24 If I wanted to leave the county, I could have

25 left any day.



Page 112

1 Q. I know that, but was your boxing up

2 of your office unique on this occasion compared

3 to the routine existence or presence of boxes in

4 the office?

5 MR. WILSON: Objection to form.

6 A. No. The office was cleaned up.

7 Everyone in the office cleaned the office up.

8 It was a mess.

9 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. So the media

10 coverage about your having packed this week and

11 your desk clean, the coverage indicating that

12 that was a standoff about your leaving is

13 inaccurate?

14 A. It is greatly exaggerated, yeah.

15 Q. And so to what extent is it true?

16 A. I don't recall ever making a demand

17 or threatening to quit. That is not at all

18 correct. It's not uncommon to have a -- you

19 know, a media report of something that is

20 sensationalized or exaggerated. You will -- you

21 will notice in the article that I've declined to

22 comment.






Page 113

1 Q. Let me show you what I'm marking as

2 County Exhibit 3. Is this press coverage that

3 you were familiar with when it was issued?

4 MR. LOWE: Still, that's sort of a

5 vague question. Did you read this article is

6 more specific.

7 MR. SMITH: Yeah, sure.

8 And for Jay's benefit, with my

9 apology, this is an article of October 19, 2012,

10 and the title is -- it's an AL.com article and

11 the title is "County Attorney's timing In

12 Demanding a raise couldn't be worse, but not as

13 bad as Kenneth Klee trying to stop the story."


15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Did you read this

16 article on or about the day it was issued?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. As you look at it now, are you

19 familiar with it as an article from that time

20 period?

21 A. Honestly I don't remember it, but I

22 don't -- there is -- as you know, as you're

23 learning, there is something in the paper about

24 Jefferson County every day all day. I don't

25 read all of them.



Page 114

1 Q. And is this story related to your

2 demand for a pay increase?

3 MR. LOWE: Object to form.


5 MR. LOWE: He said he didn't demand a

6 pay increase.

7 A. I don't think I demanded anything.

8 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Did you request a pay

9 increase?

10 A. I requested an increase for everyone

11 in the county attorney's office that would be

12 compliant with the county's own resolutions that

13 set the pay scales for everyone in the office,

14 including myself, but there was no demand or

15 threat or --

16 Q. Did your negotiation about that

17 include discussion about leaving?

18 A. Not that I recall.




22 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Let me show you what

23 I'm marking as County Exhibit 4.

24 MR. SMITH: Jay, County Exhibit 4 is

25 an AL.com article dated October 23, 2012. The



Page 115

1 title is "Give Jefferson County lawyer Jeff

2 Sewell what he's asking for, a kick in the

3 pants."


5 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Mr. Sewell, do you

6 recall reading this article on or about the date

7 when it was issued?

8 A. I do recall reading this article. I

9 don't remember when, but I recall reading it.

10 Q. And outside the commission, did you

11 receive criticism from members of the public

12 about your request for a pay increase to go from

13 three seventy-five to -- to something over four

14 hundred thousand?

15 MR. LOWE: Object to the form.


17 MR. LOWE: Criticism from the

18 public?

19 MR. SMITH: Yes.

20 MR. LOWE: Personally? Did they call

21 him, write him --

22 MR. SMITH: Those would all be

23 answers, those would all be responses.

24 A. No, I did not. Criticism from the

25 public?



Page 116

1 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'm just asking if --

2 did you get, for example, were there web sites

3 that you saw where people commented negatively

4 on what you were requesting?

5 A. Such as what?

6 Q. Such as -- let me give you a second

7 to read this article. And along the lines of

8 the comments being made here by John Archibald,

9 that kind of criticism is what I'm asking

10 about.

11 A. No, not -- I mean quite to the

12 contrary. I got lots of calls from individuals,

13 including lawyers in your law firm, that this

14 should be -- the county's attorneys should be

15 paid in accordance with their -- county's

16 resolutions. I wouldn't characterize that as

17 criticism.

18 Q. So other than John Archibald in this

19 article, you didn't hear criticism or negative

20 sentiment about your request from anyone else?

21 A. I don't recall hearing it. I mean, I

22 don't think that John Archibald and -- his

23 opinions about things are just his opinions.

24 He's entitled to his opinion. That's not going

25 to affect --



Page 117

1 Q. I'm not trying to offer him as an

2 expert witness or a character reference for

3 anybody here. I'm asking -- I'm presenting you

4 with what was publicized at the time and just

5 wanting to know if your recollection today is

6 that this article was the only negative

7 sentiment you heard about the request you made

8 in October of 2012 for a pay increase from three

9 seventy-five to something over four hundred

10 thousand in annual salary?


12 A. Let me clarify your question for

13 you. I didn't make a pay request for myself. I

14 made a request of the commission that the

15 commission follow their resolution that set up

16 all of the attorneys' salaries in the county

17 attorney's office, and to treat the lawyers in

18 the county attorney's office the same way that

19 all of the other employees of Jefferson County

20 were being treated. That's the context of all

21 of this.

22 There was no demand, there was no

23 threat. How this got played and how this was

24 given to John Archibald and how it was spun to

25 John Archibald I was not part of.



Page 118

1 John Archibald never called me before he wrote

2 this. Had he done so, I suspect it would have

3 been a much different article or would not have

4 been written at all.

5 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) If he had called you,

6 you would have said no comment?

7 A. I would have listened to what he had

8 to say and what his questions were.




12 Q. All right. And then if you could

13 look at County Exhibit 5 -- have you had a

14 chance to look at it?

15 A. Yeah.

16 MR. SMITH: All right. For Jay's

17 benefit, this is an article dated November 21,

18 2012, AL.com, "Jefferson County attorney who

19 earns $375,000 to get $18,750 pay raise."


21 MR. SMITH: You're welcome.

22 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) And you were asked

23 earlier about quotations attributed to

24 Commissioner Carrington. In this article as you

25 see about the middle of that first page there is



Page 119

1 a quotation there that says we've completed our

2 evaluations of the county attorney's office and

3 we find their performance to be satisfactory.

4 Is that a statement that you heard him make in

5 an open forum too?

6 A. Possibly. I don't recall.

7 Q. Okay. And then there's another

8 quotation below that attributed to Commissioner

9 Carrington that says Jeff is all in, we're

10 moving forward. Did you hear him say that in

11 public or in some open setting?

12 A. David, I don't remember -- David

13 Smith, I don't remember if David Carrington said

14 that in a public setting or -- I just don't

15 remember.

16 Q. Okay. And --

17 A. I think that he did. I think I was

18 sitting at the bench looking at him, but I won't

19 swear to it because I just don't remember.

20 Q. Okay. So the public comment here is

21 that what's being -- the work being done by your

22 office is satisfactory. Is that -- did you take

23 issue -- well, beg your pardon. We've looked at

24 that quotation. My question to you is did you

25 take issue with that evaluation of being



Page 120

1 satisfactory?

2 A. I don't take issue with that quote.

3 Q. But was that evaluation provided at

4 that time?

5 MR. LOWE: I object to the form.

6 What evaluation is there in this? And this is

7 an article from Barnett Wright with AL.com; who

8 knows whether he's quoting correctly,

9 paraphrasing or what. I mean, there's no reason

10 for us to even believe that he's accurately

11 quoting. So why are you asking him to validate

12 something that we don't even know whether it's

13 authentic?

14 MR. SMITH: The --

15 MR. LOWE: This isn't a quote by

16 Jeff, this is a quote presumably by David

17 Carrington who Jeff has said he doesn't recall

18 whether he made it or not.

19 MR. SMITH: I just didn't remember

20 these objections being made this morning when

21 questions were asked about quotations that were

22 perhaps more positive.

23 MR. LOWE: I thought you were

24 objecting, saying that it would invoke

25 privilege, and in most instances we didn't



Page 121

1 answer them.

2 MR. SMITH: I don't think that

3 applied to that question.

4 MR. LOWE: Well, that's not what

5 we're talking about now. I'm just saying.

6 MR. SMITH: No, what we're talking

7 about now is newspaper quotations, and the

8 precedent in the deposition --

9 MR. LOWE: Right. And they're

10 hearsay and they're -- he's said he doesn't

11 remember being made.

12 MR. SMITH: I'm not --

13 MR. LOWE: Look, just go on. I've

14 made my statement. Let's go on. You're right,

15 let's quit wasting time. Ask your questions.

16 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Well, there's a

17 quotation here that says we've completed our

18 evaluations and we find their performance to be

19 satisfactory. Is that an evaluation that you

20 heard at that time?

21 A. I don't remember what I heard at what

22 time.

23 Q. Okay. And so as of this time frame,

24 October up to November 1st of 2012, you don't

25 remember how the commissioners evaluated the



Page 122

1 performance of the legal department, do you?

2 MR. LOWE: Or do you?

3 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) You just said you

4 didn't, as I heard you.

5 A. You used the word evaluation. I

6 don't recall ever seeing an evaluation or being

7 given an evaluation -- a written document.

8 Certainly no criticism of anything.

9 Q. And so satisfactory would be -- you

10 wouldn't regard the satisfactory rating as being

11 in any way critical of you?

12 A. No.




16 MR. SMITH: Okay. Let me show you

17 what I'm marking as County Exhibit 6.

18 Jay, this is a memorandum to

19 Jefferson County Commission from Jeff Sewell,

20 County Attorney, March 13, 2013, subject,

21 recommendations to reduce outside legal

22 expenses.

23 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Is this a memorandum

24 that you prepared?

25 A. Yes.



Page 123

1 MR. LOWE: Let me interrupt for a

2 second. By introducing this into this

3 deposition, are you saying this is in no way

4 subject to the attorney/client privilege and

5 that he can respond to anything in it?

6 MR. SMITH: I want to ask a couple of

7 foundation questions. I haven't had the chance

8 to ask him about it until now, and so until I --

9 Mr. LOWE: Well, you have marked it

10 as an exhibit in this deposition.

11 MR. SMITH: I have. I have.

12 MR. WILSON: You've provided it to

13 me, I'm not somebody in privity with the

14 county.

15 MR. SMITH: Correct.

16 MR. WILSON: And I don't think you

17 have a choice at this point, you've marked it,

18 it's on the record, it's been exposed to me, I

19 don't think you can make a claim that anything

20 in here any longer is privileged.

21 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) When you issued this,

22 this went to the public; isn't that right?

23 A. Not by me it didn't. If it did, it

24 was -- I mean, I recall there being a newspaper

25 article about this, so it --



Page 124

1 Q. Is this about managing budgetary

2 issues?

3 A. The subject line is recommendations

4 to reduce outside legal expenses.

5 Q. In terms of the -- the expenditure of

6 money on lawyers?

7 A. On outside law firms.

8 Q. Right. Which is a budget matter that

9 requires commission action to pay the lawyers;

10 right?

11 A. It requires commission action to

12 establish a budget which includes a lot of

13 things, including paying outside lawyers.

14 Q. It would be a yes, wouldn't it?

15 A. It would be what it is.

16 Q. And this is all public information,

17 isn't it, the rates you're paying the lawyers?

18 A. The --

19 MR. LOWE: Look through it to make

20 sure.

21 A. I mean, I don't know what you mean by

22 this. The --

23 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) The information here

24 is -- is what's being paid by Jefferson County

25 to lawyers?



Page 125

1 A. The dollar amounts that are in here

2 are the hourly rates and such and so forth, yes,

3 that's all public contracts, public contracts or

4 public records or both.

5 Q. And in providing the -- this

6 evaluation to the county commission, did you

7 have as your ultimate recommendation that the

8 size of the legal department under your

9 supervision be increased?

10 A. That was an -- a recommendation.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. That was a recommendation in

14 connection with the March --

15 A. Yes. This memo was the result of a

16 request made to me by the commission or someone

17 on the commission as to, you know, how can we

18 reduce, what can we do to save money on the

19 outside lawyers. This was written in response

20 to a request for the information.

21 Q. And this is the subject of the memo

22 that's been marked earlier as Sewell Exhibit 2;

23 is that right? The --

24 A. I don't think I have kept that, so --

25 Q. Item four; is that right? Is that



Page 126

1 not still over there?

2 A. No.

3 MR. WILSON: We'll find it.

4 THE WITNESS: Which one is that?

5 Which exhibit -- what's the date?

6 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) It's the April 2nd

7 memo to you.

8 A. From David Carrington?

9 Q. From David Carrington.

10 A. And then what was your question?

11 Q. And I'm saying this memo is the

12 subject of item four on this memo; right?

13 A. Your Exhibit 6 is the subject of

14 paragraph four of the --

15 MR. LOWE: That was his question.

16 A. -- of Number 2?

17 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) That's my question.

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. And so is it correct -- have you got

20 2 in front of you as well now?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thanks. I'm reading from paragraph

23 four of Sewell Exhibit 2. It says your

24 evaluation of billing rates was grossly

25 misleading in that it compared apples to



Page 127

1 oranges. Do you know what that means? Did you

2 understand that sentence when you reviewed this

3 memo?

4 A. I -- I can read the sentence, but I'm

5 not -- the purpose of the memo was not to

6 evaluate billing rates, the purpose of the memo

7 was to -- I mean, the billing rates are what

8 they are, they're -- that's absolutely factual.

9 The purpose of the memo was to try to figure out

10 a way to do more work in-house at less cost.

11 Q. But would you agree that what you did

12 in the memo was make a comparison between

13 expenditures on the outside lawyers and how it

14 could be different with a larger legal

15 department reporting to you?

16 A. Well, I don't think I made a

17 comparison. I think I stated what the facts --

18 the facts are the facts.

19 Q. Well, all right. If the word

20 comparison isn't appropriate, then did you

21 describe how much money would be saved by

22 growing the legal department reporting to you as

23 compared to engaging outside counsel to the

24 extent the county was at the time of these

25 papers?



Page 128

1 A. I think that the memo speaks for

2 itself.

3 Q. But you can still answer the question

4 whether it does or not?

5 A. I can -- I mean, I can answer the

6 question, there's no comparison in here. I

7 don't really understand your question.

8 Q. When you give a five-million-dollar

9 figure, is that based on comparing one thing to

10 another?

11 A. What are you referring to?

12 MR. LOWE: Where is that stated in

13 here?

14 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, guys. Let me

15 be sure that that's -- that this is where I get

16 that number. (PAUSE)

17 No, it's a fair question. Let me

18 withdraw mine.

19 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) The memo, the April

20 2nd memo goes on to say, as I've shared with you

21 before, billing rates for outside attorneys

22 include items that are not paid by in-house

23 attorneys, items like client development,

24 vacation days, sick days, holidays, staff

25 payroll and benefits, employer contributions to



Page 129

1 health insurance, employer contributions to

2 Social Security taxes, overhead contributions

3 for rent, utilities, insurance, et cetera. Is

4 that true? Is that statement in this memo

5 true?

6 A. I don't know if it's true or not, I

7 don't understand the statement or what relevance

8 it has to this memo. It is in the memo.

9 Q. It's in the April 2nd memo?

10 A. Uh-huh (INDICATING AFFIRMATIVE). I

11 mean that, what you just read is in the April

12 2nd memo, but it -- I don't know --

13 MR. LOWE: You're asking him to

14 explain David Carrington's thought processes,

15 which may be impossible to do.

16 A. I mean, it suggested to me how

17 hastily this was prepared, how quickly the April

18 2nd memo was thrown together without a whole lot

19 of thought. And I believe this memo is also --

20 this March 13 memo was also referenced in item

21 number five of the April 2nd memo.

22 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) And is the

23 information in paragraph five correct, too?

24 A. No. Carrington is completely wrong.

25 It's completely false.



Page 130

1 Q. Okay. Will you explain that?

2 A. Yes. If you read on April -- the

3 April 2nd memo, paragraph number five,

4 Mr. Carrington refers to a memorandum, this

5 County Exhibit 6, dated March 13, 2013. He says

6 that I represented that your -- my office had

7 reviewed 1298 contracts in the year 2012, and

8 that is a correct statement. It says, in fact,

9 a detailed review of the 2012 -- commission

10 agendas is what he's referring to -- indicates,

11 A, the total number of contracts and amendments,

12 many of which were minor -- and so forth and so

13 on -- that were presented to the commission for

14 consideration was approximately one-half that

15 amount, indeed the total number of items on all

16 commission agendas was actually less than 1298.

17 When I read this I realized how

18 quickly again this was -- it was thrown together

19 because the assumption that underlies that

20 statement is that a contract only is reviewed

21 one time in the county attorney's office.

22 That's wrong. The other assumption is, is that

23 a contract that is reviewed in the county

24 attorney's office ever makes it to the county

25 commission agenda. That's also wrong.



Page 131

1 Q. So --

2 A. It is -- when a contract comes in for

3 review in the county attorney's office it almost

4 always is incomplete, something's not right, it

5 is logged in, it is logged out, it goes away for

6 days, weeks or months, it comes back, gets

7 logged in, it gets logged out again. The number

8 1298 is absolutely one hundred percent accurate.

9 The secretary in the office keeps a log of these

10 and that number was derived from that log and

11 there were 1298 contract reviews in the year

12 2012.

13 Q. And if a contract, single contract,

14 was reviewed five times, is that a one or a

15 five?

16 A. It's five.

17 Q. That's a five in the 1298?

18 A. Absolutely. And there also -- it is

19 very common for contracts to be reviewed that

20 never make it to the agenda and never get voted

21 on because along the way it just falls apart.

22 Q. Is there anything in the memo that

23 explains that where one contract is reviewed

24 multiple times, that you treated that as a

25 multiple as opposed to the one for the



Page 132

1 contract?

2 A. Everyone that works for Jefferson

3 County that is involved in the contract process

4 that has any experience or tenure there knows

5 that. Someone who had some experience --

6 Q. I think my question was is there any

7 reference in the memo to that?

8 A. There's no reference to that, there's

9 no reference to where the elevators are or the

10 public restroom, because people that have been

11 there a little while understand that.

12 Q. Well, I don't know -- no one there

13 has been there as long as you had; right?

14 A. Almost no one.

15 Q. And so in the memo it doesn't explain

16 that 1298 represents the multiple times one

17 contract would be reviewed as opposed to just

18 the number of contracts themselves?

19 MR. WILSON: Objection to form. I

20 mean, you're going around and around. The

21 document says what it says, and the document

22 doesn't actually say contracts reviewed, it says

23 contract reviews.

24 THE WITNESS: Plural.

25 MR. SMITH: Is that an objection to



Page 133

1 the form?

2 MR. WILSON: That is an objection to

3 the form.

4 MR. LOWE: And thank -- thank you for

5 making it.

6 A. So the point is, is that on April

7 2nd, paragraph number five of the April 2nd memo

8 was just -- it's just false, it's wrong.

9 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Did the commission

10 approve your recommendation in the March 13

11 memo?

12 A. Let me look at my recommendations.

13 (COUNSEL AND WITNESS CONFERRING.)

14 I recommended that the office be

15 comprised of six qualified competent in-house

16 attorneys with adequate skill sets, along with

17 some clerical positions being created. I'm not

18 aware that those recommendations were ever

19 implemented. It's certainly possible they have

20 done so since I am not there anymore, but I'm

21 unaware of it.

22 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) The last you knew,

23 this recommendation had not been approved in any

24 way, had it?

25 A. I think that's right.



Page 134

1 Q. And did you provide them any

2 comparison in this analysis of the compensation

3 in the Jefferson County Legal Department to the

4 legal department of any other local government

5 subdivision?

6 A. Not in -- not in this memorandum, I

7 did not. There had been previous conversations

8 and discussions with this and former commissions

9 that go back for years that looked at the

10 workload done in-house at Jefferson County

11 with -- you know, comparing that to similar

12 in-house legal offices in other parts of the

13 United States, including Jacksonville, Florida,

14 Duval County, Florida, and other counties around

15 the country, but that was not in this document.

16 Q. But in -- that would be relevant,

17 would you agree?

18 A. That was not what I was asked to do.

19 The purpose of the memorandum was to advise

20 about how to save money on the cost of outside

21 counsel, what to do to accomplish that goal.

22 Q. If you were a decision maker about

23 how to manage this money, would you be

24 interested in knowing how do the salaries in

25 this department compare to similar departments?



Page 135

1 A. If I had -- if I were a decision

2 maker I would -- and I wanted to know that, I

3 would ask for it.

4 Q. So you -- but you would regard it as

5 relevant?


7 A. If I were a decision maker? I don't

8 know if it would be relevant -- to whom it would

9 be relevant to, but if I wanted to know I would

10 ask for it.

11 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) And did you

12 understand when you reviewed the April 2nd memo

13 that Commissioner Carrington wanted that kind of

14 information or would have found it useful?

15 MR. LOWE: Object to the form. It's

16 asking him to speculate what Carrington wanted.

17 He's already told you what he was directed to

18 do.

19 A. If Mr. Carrington had wanted that

20 information he could have asked me for it, but

21 he didn't.

22 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Do you know, as of

23 this time period of March 2013, how the

24 compensation in your office compared to any

25 other Alabama local government legal department?



Page 136


2 A. You talking about the in-house

3 compensation?

4 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Yes. I do, yes,

5 uh-huh (INDICATING AFFIRMATIVE).

6 A. I had just general knowledge of how

7 it would compare to the compensation, not just

8 in Alabama but in other parts of the country

9 with similarly sized counties with similarly

10 sized legal issues and problems.

11 Q. And what is your understanding of how

12 your salary compared to other people in similar

13 positions across the country?

14 A. Well, you have to understand that in

15 March of 2013 there was no other county in

16 the -- that I'm aware of in the United States of

17 America that was going through what Jefferson

18 County's going through. So to compare the

19 county's -- Jefferson County's compensation

20 scales to let's just say Pike County, Alabama,

21 would, in my judgment, that would be an apple to

22 orange comparison, but perhaps a comparison to

23 Duval County, Florida might not be, where the

24 county attorney earns substantially more than

25 $375,000 a year.



Page 137

1 Q. But if you went back, you say the

2 county circumstances were peculiar in 2013, your

3 salary increases had been on what percentage

4 increases for the three years before?

5 A. Zero.

6 Q. And so in 2010 your salary was three

7 seventy-five?

8 A. I think you -- perhaps you're not

9 following this.

10 Q. I may not be. I thought you said you

11 had zero percent increase for three years?

12 A. I had no increase despite -- despite

13 the resolution of the county commission that set

14 up a ten-step 5 percent per year increase.

15 Q. Let me ask a better question.

16 MR. LOWE: You know, let me interject

17 a second. I don't -- is Mr. Sewell's pay an

18 issue in this employment lawsuit that -- why are

19 we delving into why he got paid, when he got

20 paid? He signed a separation agreement with the

21 county that ended all issues and disputes

22 between Mr. Sewell and the county. Are we going

23 to delve into those for the rest of the day?

24 And, by the way, I'll raise the

25 seven-hour limit rule since it looks like we're



Page 138

1 going to bump into that on this deposition. So,

2 I mean, where are we going with all this?

3 You get to cross-examine him within

4 the scope of what he asked this morning, but

5 admittedly I'm not up to speed on what the

6 issues are in this lawsuit, but I don't think

7 anything has anything to do with what, you know,

8 he made and his salary and why he got an

9 increase or not. I mean, if you want to talk

10 about why he got terminated, I guess -- I'm not

11 even sure that's relevant, but --

12 MR. SMITH: Well, what I'll say is --

13 MR. LOWE: That was a polite way of

14 saying --

15 MR. SMITH: I know what you're

16 saying.

17 MR. LOWE: -- I think you're really

18 outside the scope of what's going on. It's

19 getting late in the day, it's getting more and

20 more tedious. I don't know, I'm just saying can

21 we cut to the chase?

22 A. I don't remember your question. I'm

23 sorry.

24 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) In 2010, was your

25 salary approximately $375,000?



Page 139

1 A. My salary was exactly $375,000, two

2 thousand eight, nine, ten and eleven.

3 Q. The circumstances in 2013, which were

4 being in bankruptcy, weren't the same in those

5 years, was it?

6 A. I don't follow your question.

7 Q. We weren't in bankruptcy, Jefferson

8 County was not in bankruptcy until 2011 as I

9 recall; is that right?

10 A. Jefferson County had not filed a

11 petition until November of 2011.

12 Q. My point is this: You responded a

13 moment ago that -- that your salary was

14 justified, my word, because being in the county

15 attorney's office in 2013 was so uniquely

16 demanding. Am I paraphrasing correctly what you

17 said?

18 A. I don't feel like I'm trying to

19 justify my salary. I don't follow your

20 question.

21 MR. LOWE: And it's not relevant to

22 this case.

23 MR. SMITH: Well, the commission's

24 dissatisfaction with Mr. Sewell is. It's not an

25 issue in my mind in the consent decree



Page 140

1 litigation --

2 MR. LOWE: Okay. Well, just ask him

3 questions about their dissatisfaction and

4 I'll --

5 MR. SMITH: Well, this is a subject

6 of the memo.

7 MR. LOWE: Okay.

8 MR. SMITH: So I am.

9 MR. LOWE: All right. Keep going.

10 MR. SMITH: But I'm happy to -- I've

11 cut out a lot of my outline during lunch, so I

12 wouldn't be so pessimistic. But -- but if I

13 can't get an answer to the question and so I can

14 go to the next one --

15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) You were a very

16 highly paid county attorney by any standard,

17 wouldn't you agree?


19 A. When I took the job as the county

20 attorney I agreed to accept the job at $88,000 a

21 year less than my predecessor, with the

22 understanding that there would be a pay scale

23 established as a matter of public record that

24 would treat all of the lawyers in the county

25 attorney's office the same as other employees of



Page 141

1 the county who all have a ten-step 5 percent pay

2 scale by operation of the merit system. And

3 that was the first time that had ever been

4 done.

5 And that was a requirement of mine in

6 order to -- there were two requirements that I

7 had when I took the job. One is the commission

8 must create the same pay runway for the lawyers

9 as they -- as was created for all other

10 employees of the county. That was one

11 requirement. The other requirement was that

12 there would be a unanimous vote of the

13 commission to hire me as county attorney and if

14 there was not going to be a unanimous vote I was

15 not going to accept the job --

16 What had happened by March of 2013,

17 all of the other employees of the county who

18 were now reporting to the county manager, all of

19 their 5 percent merit raises had been reinstated

20 a year earlier, but the commission was the

21 appointing authority for our office. In our

22 office they had not been restarted, so we were

23 being treated odd man out from all the rest of

24 the employees in the county, which was a premise

25 that all of the commissioners understood fully.



Page 142

1 So it's very disingenuous to suggest

2 there's something sinister about all of our pay

3 which was established years earlier.

4 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I don't know why you

5 read my question that way. I'm simply asking

6 you to confirm that you were aware in 2013 that

7 your salary was a particularly high salary level

8 for the position you occupied in the market

9 across the country.

10 MR. LOWE: I object to the form, plus

11 it's been asked and answered.

12 MR. SMITH: Did he answer?

13 MR. LOWE: Yeah, he has.

14 MR. SMITH: What's the answer?

15 MR. LOWE: He said compared to

16 others, no. And he even said Duval County

17 several times.

18 MR. SMITH: He said Duval County

19 once, and I don't know --

20 MR. LOWE: No, he said it --

21 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) But is there --

22 other than athletics coaches, was there anyone

23 paid higher as a public employee in Alabama than

24 you?

25 A. Absolutely, yeah. Carroll Garrison,



Page 143

1 Malcolm Portera, the chancellors, the CFO of the

2 University of Alabama system. Auburn, yeah, the

3 college systems all through Alabama, yeah,

4 absolutely. Paul Hubbert.

5 MR. LOWE: The junior college

6 systems.

7 A. The junior college systems.

8 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Make more than

9 $400,000?

10 A. Yeah. The AEA director, and just go

11 on down the line.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. And if you will actually go do the

14 research, you will find that a $375,000 annual

15 salary for a county attorney in a similarly

16 sized county with a similar number of years of

17 experience is -- that's not out of line.

18 Q. Not out of line with other county

19 attorneys?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And who are all the county attorneys

22 by whatever location that you include when you

23 say that?

24 A. The ones that come to my mind right

25 here, sitting here today, are Duval County,



Page 144

1 Florida, Broward County, Florida. There are

2 others around the country.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Including Jefferson County Alabama in

5 the 20 or so years before I became the county

6 attorney.

7 Q. And so your testimony about your

8 salary level, would it be fair to summarize it

9 as being you thought it was at a completely

10 appropriate level?


12 A. If I didn't think it was an

13 appropriate level, I would have objected to it.

14 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Well, you did.

15 A. The county commission established the

16 salary.

17 Q. You did object to it.

18 MR. LOWE: Objection.

19 MR. WILSON: It's not a question.

20 MR. LOWE: That's arguing with him.

21 A. It really is.

22 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) But you did object to

23 it, didn't you?


25 A. What is it?



Page 145

1 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) To your salary level

2 not being enough?

3 A. No. No.

4 MR. LOWE: He's already answered

5 that.

6 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) The memo that's March

7 13th, had that analysis been done before that?

8 A. What analysis?

9 Q. Had you ever done a previous similar

10 analysis?

11 A. To what? To Exhibit 6?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I had done -- actually I had not

14 done, the -- my predecessor had done an analysis

15 and had a file that went back many, many years.

16 And when attorney compensation for the county

17 attorney's office was his concern and not my

18 concern, he had quite a file on this matter and

19 from time to time over the last 25 years, the --

20 you know, the pay was adjusted for the lawyers

21 in the county attorney's office. When I started

22 to work for Jefferson County in 1982, my pay

23 was, I think, if I recall, was less than $3 an

24 hour.

25 Q. Well, so your answer about whether



Page 146

1 that analysis had been done by the county

2 attorney's office before, the answer is no?

3 A. No, the answer is there had been an

4 analysis before of, you know, compensation type

5 analysis for the lawyers, in-house lawyers, but

6 it predated me as county attorney.

7 Q. Comparing outside lawyer rates to

8 in-house lawyer salaries?

9 A. I -- yes. Yeah. Yes.

10 Q. But the outcome of the March 13th

11 memo was no change was made in the face of your

12 recommendation?

13 A. I think that's right.

14 MR. SMITH: Okay. Can we take 10

15 minutes and let me sort out my outline?

16 THE WITNESS: Sure.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

18 (Whereupon, a short recess was had,

19 2:47 p.m. - 3:21 p.m.)

20 MR. SMITH: All right. Thank you.

21 We can go back on the record. I have 6 marked;

22 is that right?

23 THE REPORTER: Yes.





Page 147


2 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) My question to you --

3 MR. LOWE: Hold on.

4 MR. SMITH: Have we got it marked

5 yet?


7 MR. WILSON: You might want to

8 identify it for the record and for Jay's benefit

9 too.

10 MR. SMITH: What we have marked as

11 County Exhibit 7 is an e-mail sequence where the

12 last e-mail of the sequence is at 9:30 p.m. on

13 February 25th, 2013.

14 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Is this, Mr. Sewell,

15 an e-mail sequence that you've seen before?

16 A. I think it's part of an e-mail

17 sequence I've seen before.

18 Q. Is this a correct presentation of

19 these -- of the dialogue had on this occasion by

20 these e-mails?


22 A. It's probably correct. I don't think

23 it's complete, but the part that's here I think

24 is correct.

25 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. And this --



Page 148

1 the e-mail responses that are attributed to you

2 here are statements that you typed for yourself?

3 A. Probably. I think so.

4 Q. All right. Thank you.

5 In the public hearing on April 12th

6 that's been talked about before, Commissioner

7 Knight, you may recall, raised the subject of

8 Commissioner Carrington having made a proposal

9 for an amendment to the resolution of

10 organization to add a committee for the county

11 manager and to add a committee for the county

12 attorney. Do you remember that subject coming

13 up in that April 12th -- I'll call it a

14 hearing -- committee meeting?

15 A. Committee meeting. I remember Knight

16 saying something along those lines, but it was

17 not -- it was not a -- what he was referring to

18 was not a proposed amendment to the resolution

19 of organization. That's not what -- that's not

20 what he said -- may be what he said, but that's

21 not what the document was.

22 Q. Well, let me read an unofficial

23 transcript of it, and that's what I acknowledge

24 to you it is, it's a transcript of the hearing

25 that day that's been typed for my use. I'm



Page 149

1 reading from commission -- what is attributed to

2 Commissioner Knight: And would it be prudent

3 for you as the county attorney to say, hey guys,

4 we've got this coming up? You know, you may

5 have forgotten about it, but I don't know, but

6 you knew about it and I don't feel like you

7 communicated that to us. The April 2nd

8 memorandum, because here we had this

9 organizational chart of 2010 when we came in and

10 it says what it says, and we had the consent

11 hearing, the contempt hearing, with several

12 months passed by and the issue never became

13 paramount until April 2nd, 2010 -- I'll tell you

14 is what he said, I believe he meant 2013.

15 Continuing with reading Commissioner Knight: I

16 think that was in response to Mr. Carrington

17 putting forth a resolution to add another

18 committee for the county manager so that we

19 could kind of shift all those departments under

20 county manager to him and then have the county

21 attorney to have a committee. And I know you

22 and Mr. Carrington, I think y'all told me y'all

23 had talked and we're in this committee meeting

24 and then you pull out a memorandum and put it

25 out and we kind of stepped back and took that



Page 150

1 deep breath.

2 Do you remember that subject coming

3 up that day?

4 A. I remember trying to follow what --

5 that rambling discourse, and I didn't understand

6 it then.

7 Q. Was there a committee meeting that

8 was open to the public on or about March 26th,

9 2013, where Commissioner Carrington discussed

10 making adjustments to the resolution of

11 organization?

12 A. There are -- all committee meetings

13 are open to the public.

14 Q. Well, if you could answer about the

15 one I'm asking about.

16 A. I don't remember dates. I don't -- I

17 couldn't tell you about dates, but I don't

18 recall -- I don't recall Commissioner Carrington

19 coming forward with a -- with an amendment to

20 the resolution of organization. No, I don't

21 think that's right.

22 Q. Was there a meeting -- well, first,

23 do you dispute that there was a committee

24 meeting on March 26th?

25 A. I don't know.



Page 151

1 Q. Do you have any reason to say that

2 didn't happen, like you were out of the country

3 or --

4 A. I wasn't out of the country.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I mean, there were committee

7 meetings, I guess, every other Tuesday.

8 Q. But was there a meeting where you

9 came in with an amended redlined resolution of

10 organization where in an open public meeting you

11 passed it around to all the commissioners?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in that meeting before you did

14 that passing out of your draft, had Commissioner

15 Carrington's idea of adjusting the committee

16 structure to have these other two committees

17 discussed?

18 A. I don't remember --

19 MR. WILSON: Could I have that read

20 back?


22 MR. WILSON: I think there's a word

23 missing.

24 MR. SMITH: It does seem less than

25 complete. Why don't I -- if there's no



Page 152

1 objection, I'll just try to state it again.

2 A. I didn't understand that.

3 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) At this meeting where

4 you handed out your redline of the resolution,

5 had Commissioner Carrington discussed in that

6 meeting the idea of making committee adjustments

7 to add these other two committees?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Okay. Do you deny that he did that

10 before you handed out your version?

11 A. I don't -- I don't remember.

12 Q. I understand. I'm asking whether you

13 deny it or not.


15 MR. LOWE: He's answered the

16 question. If he doesn't know, he can't deny it

17 or affirm it, so --

18 MR. SMITH: Okay.

19 MR. LOWE: It would be unfair to

20 press him to do so.




24 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Let me show you what

25 I'm going to ask to have marked as County



Page 153

1 Exhibit 8. Let me ask you to look at that

2 exhibit.

3 MR. SMITH: And for the benefit of

4 Jay, this exhibit is four pages of type, and on

5 the front page it begins, "Now therefore be it

6 resolved by the Jefferson County Commission."

7 And there's a handwritten note on the right

8 corner of it that says "134 Carrington

9 Resolution."

10 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) So my question -- did

11 you get the water?

12 A. No. I'm -- I've got a little bit

13 over here.

14 MR. LOWE: Y'all don't need to wait

15 on him, he'll be fine.

16 THE WITNESS: If I choke and hit the

17 floor, go get water.

18 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) My question about

19 County Exhibit 8 is, if you look at that, does

20 it give you any recollection of whether that's

21 something that you had seen either in that

22 meeting -- well, first, in that meeting before

23 you handed out your version?

24 A. This -- this does -- I've seen this

25 before, but I don't remember when I saw it and



Page 154

1 whether it was before or after, same time. I

2 just don't remember the temporal flow of what

3 you're trying to ask me about.

4 Q. Well, in the hearing -- the committee

5 meeting of April 12th, did you take issue, to

6 your recollection, with Commissioner Knight

7 saying y'all both had your ideas being advanced

8 in that meeting and -- and it became something

9 of a battle of ideas at that point?


11 MR. LOWE: Object.

12 A. I didn't understand what Joe Knight

13 was saying. I couldn't -- it was just rambling

14 and broken and made no sense at all to me.

15 Still doesn't.

16 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) All right. And so my

17 question, I guess, is when you handed yours out,

18 what was the context of it, what did you say as

19 you handed it out in this open meeting?

20 A. Words to the effect that I'm -- let

21 me pass this report out to you that you -- that

22 I was asked to prepare and here it is. That

23 wasn't -- that wasn't done as a random act of

24 something -- you know, I was doing that at a

25 request of a -- commissioners, more than one



Page 155

1 commissioner.




5 Q. Let me ask you to look at what I'm

6 going to ask to have marked as County Exhibit

7 9. And ask you to take a second -- Mr. Sewell,

8 if you'll take a second and let me know if that

9 appears to be the document that you handed out

10 in a committee meeting on or about March 26th,

11 2013?

12 A. This appears to be a document that I

13 handed out. I don't recall the date. I just

14 don't recall the circumstance of who was -- who

15 said what, when, where at that meeting.

16 Q. Well, let's put it at least in some

17 context whether you remember March 26th or not.

18 Can you confirm that was before Monday, April

19 1st?

20 A. No. I don't remember when -- in

21 March and April when committees met. I don't

22 remember the dates -- I just don't remember,

23 David. I'm sorry.

24 Q. Well, but, you know, April the 2nd is

25 the day you've testified a great deal about and



Page 156

1 that's a Tuesday, I'll represent to you.

2 Monday, April 1st, is the first day of April,

3 and I'm asking about a late March committee

4 meeting. So it seems -- I'd like to ask again

5 as you put that in context whether you can say

6 one way or the other whether you presented the

7 commission in an open committee meeting your

8 proposal about this amendment to the resolution

9 of organization?

10 A. Did I present it? Yes.

11 Q. Did you present it before April 1st?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. You just don't know one way or the

14 other?

15 A. I don't remember -- I don't remember

16 when the committees were meeting.

17 Q. Do you have any reason to believe

18 that you did this after the April 2nd memos?

19 A. I don't know. I don't remember when

20 the meeting -- when the committee meeting was or

21 this was passed out.

22 Q. Well, let me ask it a different way,

23 then. After you got your April 2nd counseling

24 about performance deficiencies that's marked as

25 Sewell 3, after you got that did you ever



Page 157

1 present the commission -- did you ever present

2 the commission -- Sewell 3 is what I said.

3 A. I'm sorry.

4 Q. That's okay. It's the April 2nd

5 counseling on -- according to the document,

6 performance deficiencies.

7 MR. WILSON: 3, here we go.

8 MR. SMITH: I'm thinking that -- have

9 I said the number wrong?

10 My apology, it's Sewell 2. I'm

11 sorry.

12 MR. WILSON: I saw that here

13 somewhere.

14 MR. SMITH: Are you okay?

15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, fine.

16 MR. SMITH: I mean, do you need water

17 before we keep going?

18 THE WITNESS: No.

19 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. Do you have

20 any recollection of providing a redlined amended

21 resolution of organization after the time when

22 you had counseling with Commissioners Carrington

23 and Brown on April 2nd?


25 A. I don't remember when I -- when the



Page 158

1 meeting was when I handed -- I'm sorry, I just

2 don't remember when the meeting was.

3 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) All right. So if the

4 -- if what Commissioner Knight was saying in his

5 statement here can be boiled down to there was a

6 meeting and both Carrington and Sewell presented

7 their thoughts on the resolution of

8 organization, if that's what he's getting at,

9 your testimony is that you don't have any

10 recollection at all of when that was?

11 A. I don't have a recollection of when

12 that was, but the way you phrased your question

13 is not what he -- is not what he was getting

14 at. That's not what happened.

15 Q. Well, those are two different things.

16 A. I don't think you understand what

17 happened.

18 Q. Well, I wasn't there for sure.

19 A. I was. I don't remember when it was.

20 Q. But I'm using the same meeting

21 information that was the subject this morning,

22 and so that's the way I'm trying to get into the

23 fact that there was a meeting. So -- so you

24 don't remember when the meeting was, but you do

25 remember handing out your redlined amended



Page 159

1 resolution of organization?

2 A. I do -- I remember handing out -- you

3 know, drafting and handing out a -- this

4 exhibit, County Exhibit 9. I just don't

5 remember when it was.

6 Q. All right. And can you confirm for

7 me that when you did that, it was the first time

8 you had ever submitted that document to the

9 client?

10 A. To the county commission?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No, cannot confirm it.

13 Q. You don't know one way or the other?

14 A. No, I do know.

15 Q. When was this distributed before?

16 A. It had been discussed in executive

17 session prior to the meeting.

18 Q. Well, I don't want to get into

19 executive session, so -- so we'll move to strike

20 that testimony. Assert privilege over anything

21 that happened in executive session.

22 MR. WILSON: Well, you asked -- you

23 asked the question.

24 MR. SMITH: I know that, but that

25 doesn't change his responsibility where I don't



Page 160

1 know the answer to --

2 MR. WILSON: He didn't tell you

3 anything about the substance, he simply answered

4 your question about whether it was discussed

5 with the commission before.

6 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) All right. So if the

7 question to you is whether you knew Commissioner

8 Carrington had some ideas about amending the

9 resolution of organization in late March, your

10 answer is yes or no?

11 A. Commissioner Carrington was not

12 trying to amend the resolution of organization.

13 Q. Okay. So your testimony would be

14 that he had no ideas that he put forth in this

15 open meeting on March 26th about amending the

16 resolution of organization at all?

17 A. That would be correct.

18 Q. Okay. And what you've got over there

19 as County Exhibit 8, does it relate to the

20 committee structure?

21 A. It would -- it would -- if this, if

22 Exhibit 8 has been adopted, it would have

23 circumvented the resolution of organization. It

24 didn't amend, it was -- if you look at it

25 carefully, it purported to amend the resolution



Page 161

1 of organization without following the procedure

2 in the resolution of organization for amending

3 the resolution. It was circumventing it.

4 Q. I'm not saying that this was

5 presented as a motion. Do you have some memory

6 that he asked for this to be approved in a

7 motion in this open meeting of March 26th?

8 A. I think that what I would have to say

9 about what his intent was and what he expressed

10 to me would be covered by the attorney/client

11 privilege.

12 Q. No, I think what I asked was in this

13 meeting of March 26th, wasn't there some motion

14 to approve this as an amendment?

15 A. I think you would have to go back --

16 not as an amendment.

17 Q. And so was this a discussion of ideas

18 about how to adjust the committee structure?

19 A. There had been a -- I'm going to say

20 a very little bit about this.

21 Q. Well, I don't want you to go to

22 privileged information. I'm asking about the

23 March 26th and whether you can say whether or

24 not this was a part of a discussion on how to

25 amend the resolution and structure committees?



Page 162

1 A. It was not a discussion about how to

2 amend the resolution of organization.

3 Q. Was it a discussion about the

4 committee arrangement in the resolution of

5 organization?

6 A. No. No, it was not. It was quite

7 the opposite of that. And it had been the

8 subject of discussion in an executive session.

9 Q. I'll ask another question.

10 Now, in County Exhibit 9, in the open

11 meeting, do you remember -- and I'm talking

12 again on March 26th and you've said you don't

13 remember the day -- but the meeting where you

14 handed out your redlined version, do you

15 remember that it was an occasion where -- where

16 after you handed out yours that there was

17 discussion and then consensus that we'll review

18 this and then come back to it?

19 A. I don't remember that.

20 Q. Do you have any basis for denying it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In that open committee meeting that

23 day, did you provide any recommendations in that

24 meeting for your version to be approved as read?

25 A. Not in that meeting.



Page 163

1 Q. Did Commissioner Carrington's

2 document say anything explicit about not

3 complying with the county manager act?

4 A. Which document?

5 Q. County 8.

6 A. I don't think so. I don't think it

7 addressed the county manager act at all.

8 Q. Did the -- did Mr. Carrington's

9 document say anything about not complying with

10 the Federal Employment Discrimination Consent

11 Decree?

12 A. Exhibit Number 8?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. I don't think it mentions the consent

15 decree.

16 Q. Does the document that Mr. Carrington

17 submitted in that meeting, which I'm handing to

18 you as County Exhibit 8, did it recognize the

19 role of the county manager more than the

20 resolution of organization that was in place at

21 that time?

22 MR. WILSON: Object to the form.


24 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Does the -- does the

25 existing resolution of organization provide for



Page 164

1 the county manager to have a committee?

2 MR. WILSON: Objection. Now I don't

3 know which -- what's the existing?

4 A. Yeah, I don't know either. I haven't

5 seen the current one.

6 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) All right. Your

7 version, which we've got marked as County

8 Exhibit 9, was a comprehensive amendment of the

9 resolution. Is that a fair description?


11 A. My version was a lawful amendment to

12 the resolution.

13 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) What I mean to ask is

14 it was, from beginning to end, the version of

15 the existing resolution of organization with

16 redlining to the extent you thought it should be

17 changed?

18 A. It was that. It was more than that.

19 Q. But was it that?

20 A. It -- it was that, but it was more

21 than that.

22 Q. Well, I'll ask the next question.

23 And your version changed the committee structure

24 within the commission from five committees to

25 one committee; is that right?



Page 165

1 A. It proposed that.

2 Q. Yes, I understand it was never --

3 A. Approved.

4 Q. -- acted on in the way of approval.

5 A. Right.

6 Q. And what did your version provide in

7 the way of an amendment for elected officials or

8 agencies that didn't report to the county

9 manager?

10 A. The document that I drafted, that I

11 handed out that I don't remember when I handed

12 it out, I don't remember the day --

13 Q. But you do acknowledge it was a

14 public meeting?

15 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely -- well,

16 when it was handed out, when this version was

17 handed out, it was a public meeting. There had

18 been prior executive sessions which we're not

19 going to get into.

20 Q. Well, which I didn't ask about and I

21 don't want to have testimony about.

22 A. Okay. This Exhibit 9 was -- was a

23 proper and lawful amendment to the resolution of

24 organization which was never approved.

25 Q. My question was did your draft



Page 166

1 provide any amendment for the elected officials

2 or the agencies that don't report to the county

3 manager?


5 Q. Well, look if you would and let me

6 know what, if any, change of that sort was

7 made.

8 A. If you look at the two exhibits, A

9 and B, that were lined through, I don't see any

10 reference at all to -- in the original version

11 or the revised version to elected officials

12 other than the county commission. Maybe I don't

13 understand your question.

14 Q. Well, did you make provision for the

15 fact that there are people in the county who

16 don't fall under the county manager and how --

17 who their appointing authorities would be or how

18 they would be fit within the organization?

19 A. The -- this document would not be the

20 place, you would not put something in this

21 document about an elected official reporting to

22 the county manager in a situation where the

23 elected official doesn't report to the county

24 manager. An elected official is an

25 independently elected, either statutory or



Page 167

1 constitutional office in the State of Alabama,

2 and would not report to the county manager or

3 the county commission.

4 Q. And so is that addressed in any way?

5 A. I'm not following you.

6 Q. The place of elected officials or

7 their relationship to the county committees or

8 who's a liaison to what, does it address those

9 in any way?

10 A. The -- again the elected officials

11 are independently elected officials, they

12 don't --

13 Q. But what about the agencies where

14 they are?

15 A. If you have something in here you'd

16 like me to look at, I'll be happy to look at it,

17 if you can just direct me to it.

18 Q. You've struck a lot of language on

19 page six; is that right?

20 A. There is -- there is redlined or

21 lined out language on page six.

22 Q. And is any of that provided for

23 elsewhere or is that just all deleted?

24 A. I don't remember -- without sitting

25 here and going through all of this, I don't know



Page 168

1 if it was moved or -- I don't remember.

2 Q. Does the county manager act require

3 that the county have just one committee?

4 A. The county manager act makes the

5 county manager directly and solely responsible

6 for all operating departments of the county.

7 Q. That wasn't my question. My question

8 was does the county manager act require that the

9 organization of the county be one that has only

10 one committee?

11 A. It doesn't expressly state that, but

12 I think that is a fair inference of the act and

13 I think that is clearly the legislative intent.

14 Q. So am I correct that your answer is,

15 no, it doesn't?


17 A. My answer is my answer.

18 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) But is it a correct

19 answer to say, no, the county manager act does

20 not address the number of committees that are

21 permissible?


23 MR. LOWE: Asked and answered.

24 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Is that right?

25 A. I've answered your question.



Page 169

1 Q. Can you point me to any provision in

2 the county manager act that addresses the number

3 of committees?

4 A. No.


6 the county manager act that specifies who can

7 chair a committee?

8 A. No.


10 the county manager act that says what a

11 committee's agenda may consist of or not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. I can't quote you the page and verse,

15 but the county manager is given the exclusive

16 and sole authority to supervise the operating

17 departments of Jefferson County. To me that

18 means, among other things, that a county

19 commissioner does not have the authority to

20 supervise an operating department. And to have

21 a committee in place that suggests that a county

22 commissioner is supervising an operating

23 department of the county is not -- is not

24 appropriate.

25 Q. I did not say anything in my



Page 170

1 questions about supervising anybody. My

2 question was -- and I'm asking a different

3 question obviously rather than reading what I

4 just said, but does the county manager act have

5 rules about the way that the committees are

6 organized at all?

7 A. I think -- I think the county manager

8 act informs how the committees are organized.

9 Q. All right. And by answering it as

10 you did, I assume that there's nothing explicit

11 there about committees, is there?

12 A. The word -- I don't remember the word

13 "committee" being used in the county manager

14 act, I don't recall that.

15 Q. All right. And so would you agree

16 that changes made to the resolution of

17 organization as you have made them in County

18 Exhibit 9 are not the only way to bring the

19 resolution of organization into full compliance

20 with the county manager act?

21 A. I would -- no, I don't know that I

22 would agree with that. I would agree that the

23 Exhibit Number 9 is "a" way. Whether it is

24 "the" way, I haven't thought about that.

25 Q. Well, that's my question.



Page 171

1 A. But it's clearly in my judgment the

2 best way to bring it into compliance with the

3 law.

4 Q. I'd suspect that since you handed it

5 out to everybody, but my question is, is it the

6 only way?

7 A. I don't -- I would have to research

8 that and study that. I don't know. It may be.

9 Q. And how can you make a case when the

10 county manager act says nothing about

11 committees, that perhaps the only way to be in

12 compliance with the county manager act is to

13 make changes so that it has one committee by

14 your design?

15 A. Because when you take the label of

16 operating department away from the name of the

17 committee, you no longer have any practical way

18 to differentiate among the committees, and you

19 no longer have any need, practical need, to have

20 five separate committee meetings when one would

21 do. It makes no sense.

22 Q. These were ideas you chose to advance

23 in this open meeting; right?

24 A. These -- well, this was an effort to

25 bring the resolution into compliance with the



Page 172

1 county manager law in the best possible way.

2 Q. Does the county manager act prohibit

3 having a committee of the county manager's

4 domain for the county manager to chair? Does it

5 prohibit that?

6 A. The -- the county manager law does

7 not address a committee -- it doesn't address

8 committees for county managers.

9 Q. And does the county manager act

10 prohibit having a committee of the county

11 attorney's domain for the county attorney to

12 chair?

13 A. Again, the county manager law does

14 not address, to my memory, a committee for a

15 county -- it doesn't address it.

16 Q. Now, looking at the transcript of the

17 April 12 proceedings of the administrative

18 services committee, let me read again -- and

19 everything I read from this is -- is unofficial

20 and prepared simply by my office, but I have

21 reviewed it and I'll represent to you that I did

22 my best.

23 In the context of Mr. Knight's,

24 Commissioner Knight's statements about this

25 March 26th meeting and the drafts being



Page 173

1 discussed, presented, handed out, you were given

2 an opportunity to respond and the response I'll

3 read. You said in the hearing, the issue of

4 compliance with the county manager law and need

5 to amend the resolution was one of a longer list

6 of items that I had finished going over with you

7 in an executive session.

8 Now, did you tell the commissioners

9 before you said that that you were going to go

10 into privileged communications without

11 authorization?

12 MR. WILSON: Object to the form of

13 the question. You asked him several times and

14 he's told you he doesn't know the date as March

15 26th. Unless you're representing to me that

16 Commissioner Knight at the April 12th hearing or

17 meeting, whatever you want to call it, said

18 March 26th, you've asked an improper question.

19 MR. LOWE: No, now also it sounds

20 like he's insinuating that he did something

21 improper at this meeting by raising some

22 privileged information in an open meeting.

23 After he was terminated from his employment he

24 entered into an agreement where it washed away

25 any prior problems that may have been had. If



Page 174

1 we're going to sit here and rehash that, we're

2 leaving, because that has nothing to do with

3 this lawsuit.

4 Now, if you're talking about that's

5 one of the reasons he was terminated, then we

6 can get into that, but it wasn't on his list of

7 reasons or issues he had with him that

8 Mr. Carrington came up with. I don't see any

9 point in going through this or insinuating that

10 Mr. Sewell did anything wrong because it has no

11 relevance to this case.

12 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'll read the entire

13 response: The issue of compliance with the

14 county manager law and need to amend the

15 resolution was one of a longer list of items

16 that I had finished going over with you in an

17 executive session on March 14th, and it was

18 canceled. The fact that your -- the fact that

19 the executive session was canceled doesn't

20 change my obligation to inform you and tell you

21 what my advice is. Let me read another, I'm

22 going to read another Rule of Professional

23 Conduct. It involves a lawyer who has an

24 organization for a client, and specifically a

25 governmental organization. Before I read that



Page 175

1 to you, though, before I forget, let me tell you

2 that, you know, why was this a burning issue on

3 April 2nd.

4 Mr. Knight said yeah.

5 Then you said: There are a lot,

6 Jefferson County's got a lot of burning issues

7 and all of them came across my desk in the

8 intervening period from March 14th and April

9 2nd, the other things that were the higher

10 claims. The buildup included our Eleventh

11 Circuit brief which had to be substantially

12 revised and edited, which was done the week of

13 March 18th. All that had to be done. There was

14 an audit opinion letter I had to do to Warren

15 Averett regarding the school's warrant fund.

16 There was the mediator's statement that we were

17 working on, plan docket we were trying to

18 prepare, disclosure statements we were trying to

19 get done, and all the other hundreds of things

20 that occupy my time day and night. It was April

21 2nd when I finally got around and transmitted

22 the memo to you and that's just because there

23 were so many things ahead of it that were even

24 higher points.

25 So as I understand what you were



Page 176

1 saying in the public meeting, between a March

2 14th meeting that was canceled and April the 2nd

3 when a memo was sent you were busy with other

4 issues and it was April 2nd before you finally

5 got around and transmitted the memo.


7 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Is that true?


9 A. Which memo?

10 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) The only one that you

11 wrote on April 2nd that I know of.


13 A. No, there probably would have been

14 more memos on April 2nd.

15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'm sorry?

16 A. There would have probably been more

17 than one memo.

18 Q. Are you really saying you don't know

19 which one I'm talking about?

20 A. I'm -- I'm assuming you're talking

21 about the April the 2nd memo to the county --

22 Q. The privileged memo?

23 A. -- to the county commission, the one

24 that's been redacted.

25 Q. No. No.



Page 177

1 A. No, no, I mean the one -- I'm sorry,

2 the one --

3 Q. No, no. The privileged memo --

4 A. Yeah, I know which you're talking

5 about, the one delivered was that morning.

6 Q. It was being talked about in the

7 April 12th hearing, so my question again is

8 between March 14th and April 2nd you were busy

9 with other issues and it was April 2nd before

10 you finally got around and transmitted the memo;

11 right?


13 A. I'm lost. I'm sorry. Mr. Knight, if

14 I heard what you said, Mr. Knight brought up the

15 date of April 2nd in his question to me. Right?

16 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) He does make

17 reference to April 2nd.

18 A. I don't -- yeah, I don't recall

19 referring to an April 2nd memo. Maybe I did,

20 but I don't really understand what you're asking

21 me.

22 Q. Well, let me try to do a better job.

23 Your statement in the opening proceedings to all

24 assembled was that the reason that the April 2nd

25 memo did -- went out when it did was that that's



Page 178

1 when you finally got around to it because there

2 were so many burning issues for the county to

3 deal with. Is that true?

4 A. I suppose it is. I don't have any

5 reason to think that it isn't, if that's what I

6 said.

7 Q. The delay from March 14th which you

8 mentioned in your statement as the date a

9 meeting was canceled, the delay was due to the

10 volume of major issues you had to handle; is

11 that right?

12 A. I don't have -- excuse me. I don't

13 have what you're reading from.

14 Q. Well, I'm reading from questions that

15 I wrote up, so --

16 A. That's why I don't have them.

17 MR. LOWE: That's why they're

18 confusing, too, apparently.

19 A. I don't -- I'm sorry, I just don't

20 have it.

21 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Well, I'm sure I'm

22 not doing the greatest job, but I mean my

23 question should be clear and if it's not then

24 I'll ask it again.

25 A. I think it would be safe to say,



Page 179

1 David, that there was -- there were a multitude

2 of crises that had to be dealt with almost every

3 day for several years. When -- I've lost track

4 today in July of precise dates and moments and

5 times when meetings occurred, I just don't

6 remember. I could reconstruct it if I had

7 access to records and things, but sitting here

8 today I don't remember the precise dates and

9 when something happened.

10 Q. What I'd like to confirm at this

11 moment is simply this: From March 14th to April

12 2nd you weren't trying to get everyone in the

13 county courthouse to pay attention to the

14 compliance through revising the resolution. It

15 was some -- everybody was busy, it came up in an

16 open meeting and -- and everybody was busy.



19 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Isn't that right?

20 A. No, that's not right.

21 Q. You just said that you were so busy

22 with so many crises between those two dates that

23 that's why you were delayed.


25 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Isn't that right?



Page 180

1 A. No. The -- the assumption behind the

2 question is not right and the question omits

3 facts.

4 Q. Well, I -- you know, I don't envy me

5 deposing you or anybody deposing a lawyer, but

6 the fact is that I'm trying to confirm that

7 there wasn't some big defiance going on at this

8 point, there was discussion going on about

9 revising the resolution, wasn't there?


11 MR. LOWE: Objection.

12 A. There had been discussion going on

13 about doing that very thing well in advance of

14 March 14th.

15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Now, was the

16 importance of bringing the resolution of

17 organization into compliance any different on

18 April the 1st, 2013 than it was in October 2011

19 when Tony Petelos started?

20 A. I don't think so. There was a

21 practical difference.

22 Q. Well, I understand the time --

23 passing of time, but --

24 A. The county manager on the first day,

25 week, month, six weeks was not --



Page 181

1 Q. Can I ask you to wait for a question?

2 A. Sure.

3 Q. Is that fair?

4 A. I'm trying to answer your prior

5 question, but if you would like to, that's fine.

6 Q. Now, you were asked questions today,

7 this morning, about the -- the memo of April 2nd

8 that you delivered and -- and then getting

9 summoned to a meeting that same day, I think you

10 said six hours later. Am I recalling that

11 correctly?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And is it your testimony that

14 Commissioner Carrington decided for the first

15 time that morning when he got your memo that you

16 were not performing your position to his

17 satisfaction, prepared a two-page memo outlining

18 other deficiencies, arranged Commissioner

19 Brown's attendance and participation in the

20 meeting and met with you for three and a half to

21 four hours about his concerns? Is that your

22 testimony?

23 A. My testimony is my testimony.

24 Q. Well, is what I just summarized your

25 belief?



Page 182

1 MR. LOWE: Well, I object to the

2 form. Why do you need to summarize his

3 testimony when he's testified?

4 MR. SMITH: Well, I'm not --

5 MR. LOWE: You just said I summarized

6 your testimony for you and do you agree with my

7 summary, and the answer is no.

8 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Your theory is that

9 the April 2nd memo led to an outcome; is that

10 right?

11 A. It clearly did, yes. Yeah.

12 Q. And the outcome that you've talked

13 about in part was the counseling on that same

14 afternoon; right?


16 MR. LOWE: Objection. In part.

17 A. In part.

18 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) And so my question to

19 you is this: Is it your testimony here today

20 that before receipt of a memo from you on April

21 the 2nd, 2013, that Commissioner Carrington was

22 entirely satisfied and pleased with your

23 performance as county attorney?

24 A. Well, if you believe what he said in

25 the newspaper in October, November, whenever, I



Page 183

1 would have to believe he was telling the truth

2 in November of the prior year. I don't know --

3 that was the first I'd heard of any concern that

4 he had about my job performance from him or

5 anyone else.

6 Q. Do you have Sewell 3?

7 MR. WILSON: Here you go.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Thank you.

10 Am I correct that this is the memo

11 that you got on the morning of April the 8th of

12 2013?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that you were put on leave with

15 pay; is that right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. So as of the point of going on this

18 leave, was there any financial sacrifice of any

19 kind?

20 A. For me?

21 Q. For you, yes.

22 A. Well, it was leave with pay.

23 Q. So no benefits or any other --

24 anything else, nothing else was taken away while

25 you were on leave when you went on leave; is



Page 184

1 that right?

2 A. Well, I mean access to my office,

3 access to my personal stuff, things of that

4 nature were inherent in this.

5 Q. You were given access to your office

6 to the extent you needed access to any personal

7 items; right?

8 A. I was given the opportunity to get

9 in. I mean, it was -- it was clear -- it was

10 clear to me when I got this on April 8th that I

11 was going to be fired. The decision had already

12 been made simply because this document told me,

13 I think, that -- yeah, please let me know if

14 you want to schedule a mutually convenient time

15 to remove my items from the office. That seemed

16 very clear to me that the effort was going to be

17 made to terminate me that morning.

18 Q. On Monday, April 8th, you've

19 described some of what went on that morning. Do

20 you have a concealed weapon permit?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And do you carry a concealed weapon

23 at any time?

24 A. I have -- I keep one or sometimes I

25 have one in my vehicle. I've never had one in



Page 185

1 my vehicle on county property. I've never had

2 one in the courthouse, I've never had one on my

3 body, on my person, while on duty as the county

4 attorney or as assistant county attorney.

5 Q. But carrying a weapon doesn't make

6 someone an automatic threat that they're about

7 to use it, does it?

8 MR. LOWE: That's asking him to

9 speculate.

10 A. I can't tell you what's in someone

11 else's mind, I don't know.

12 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Well, you've made

13 emphasis, as I heard you, about the security

14 guard who came down there being armed.


16 A. Just fact.

17 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) It is just a fact.

18 So what I'm asking you is, isn't he armed all

19 day?

20 MR. LOWE: David, I mean, is there a

21 point to this? I mean, I --

22 MR. SMITH: Yeah, there is a point.

23 MR. LOWE: Well, ask him a direct

24 question about guns or knives or bombs or

25 something.



Page 186

1 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Well, that is a

2 direct question, does he wear his gun in the

3 regular performance of his duties at the

4 courthouse?

5 A. That security guard?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. I guess. I suppose. He had it on

8 that day.

9 Q. There's no reason to imply that -- no

10 reason to think that he armed himself to come

11 excuse you from the property?

12 A. Other than the fact that he was

13 there.

14 Q. I'm saying that he armed himself to

15 do that?

16 MR. LOWE: I think the point is they

17 didn't need an armed guard or guard or any

18 escort, period. The woman could have handed him

19 the letter. Now, I don't -- it's getting late,

20 I mean, if you've got some points to make with

21 this witness, let's make them. That's

22 ridiculous.

23 MR. SMITH: I have questions.

24 MR. LOWE: Okay. Ask them.

25 MR. SMITH: I'm continuing to ask



Page 187

1 them and I'm addressing things that only came up

2 this morning.

3 MR. LOWE: I don't think there was

4 any emphasis on the fact that he was -- he may

5 have been intimidated by someone that was armed.

6 MR. SMITH: I disagree.

7 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Did you understand

8 from your April 8th memo that you got that the

9 county was reminding you of the attorney/client

10 privilege?

11 A. I understood that David Carrington

12 was saying whatever David Carrington said here.

13 Q. Excuse me -- pardon me.

14 In the April 8th memo it says, during

15 this time period you are instructed to have no

16 verbal, written or other contact with any county

17 employees or any professionals hired by the

18 county, including but not limited to the

19 county's legal staff and the county's outside

20 legal counsel. Did you read that when you first

21 received the memo?

22 A. Not when I first received the memo.

23 I read it later in the day. I read the first

24 sentence, put the memo in my vehicle and spoke

25 to the security officer and -- and Demetrius and



Page 188

1 told them that I knew they were probably very

2 embarrassed to be doing this, and I left. And I

3 read the remainder of it later in the day.

4 Q. In the April the 12th, 2013 hearing,

5 Commissioner Carrington spoke at the beginning.

6 Let me read you what he said. I want to ask you

7 some questions about it. Okay? And I'm

8 starting at the end of the first sentence, so

9 I'm going to start with the second sentence:

10 Mr. Sewell was placed on administrative leave

11 with pay because a majority of the commissioners

12 felt like he had not acted in the best interests

13 of his client, the county, in bankruptcy

14 settlement negotiations with our creditors.

15 When placed on administrative leave with pay on

16 Monday, April the 8th, 2013, Mr. Sewell was

17 instructed in writing to have no verbal, written

18 or other contact with any county employees or

19 any professionals hired by the county, including

20 but not limited to the county's legal staff and

21 the county's outside legal counsel, yet Monday

22 evening after being placed on administrative

23 leave with pay earlier that morning, Mr. Sewell

24 instructed the county's outside counsel that

25 they were not authorized to attend a previously



Page 189

1 scheduled creditor negotiation session in

2 Dallas, the very next day, Tuesday, April 9th,

3 that they were not authorized to negotiate with

4 the creditors on behalf of the county even

5 though Commissioners Stephens and Knight would

6 be participating in the negotiations, and they

7 would not be paid for any of their legal fees if

8 they attended the negotiations in Dallas.

9 Now, did you hear what I read?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Okay. And my question is I'm not

12 aware in the committee meeting of April 12th of

13 your denying that allegation. Is this

14 allegation true?

15 A. What is the allegation?

16 Q. That on the night of that -- on the

17 night of April the 8th at 9:30 p.m. Central

18 Daylight Time, that you made such communications

19 to the county's outside counsel. That's true,

20 isn't it?

21 A. You -- I'm sorry, I'm confused.

22 You're asking me if something that David

23 Carrington read on April the 12th which

24 referenced the reason that I was put on

25 administrative leave the morning of April the



Page 190

1 8th was because of something I did the evening

2 of April the 8th?

3 Q. No.

4 A. Because that's what I thought you

5 said, and I don't understand how I could be put

6 on leave on the morning of April the 8th for

7 something that had not occurred.

8 Q. That was not my question. If I

9 phrased it that way, that was not my intention.

10 I was reading what he had read in the hearing.

11 My question is simply this: In the committee

12 meeting the subject was raised that after you

13 were put on leave on the morning of the 8th,

14 that on that night of the 8th, some 12 to 14

15 hours later at 9:30 p.m. that night, that you

16 did communicate and issue directives to outside

17 counsel as Mr. Carrington said in his statement?

18 A. Not as Mr. Carrington said in his

19 statement. His statement contained

20 inaccuracies.

21 Q. But putting aside what Mr. Carrington

22 said, is it true that you contacted the county's

23 outside counsel on the night of April the 8th at

24 9:30 p.m. and told them that they were not

25 authorized to make any settlement officer --



Page 191

1 offer to any GO creditor or warrant holder?

2 A. It's true that I responded to some of

3 the county's outside attorneys.

4 Q. Is it true that you said what I just

5 read?

6 A. What you just read was part of

7 discussions that had gone on. And it's not true

8 that this was not addressed at all in the April

9 12th hearing. It was addressed, but it was

10 addressed in a way that would not reveal what

11 communications occurred between the outside

12 lawyers and me. And that was part of the --

13 part of that, David, was -- was the discussion

14 on April 12 about what a lawful order is and is

15 not.

16 Q. And I want to ask about that. I'm

17 just -- before we go to your view on those

18 rules, I just wanted to get the facts there.

19 Did you communicate with those lawyers?

20 THE WITNESS: Let me talk to you.

21 (COUNSEL AND WITNESS CONFERRING.)

22 MR. LOWE: All right. If you're

23 going to question him about communications with

24 outside counsel, are you going to waive the

25 privilege on it, on what his answer may be?



Page 192

1 I mean, you've sat here and you've read certain

2 alleged comments that were made to and from

3 these outside lawyers. Are we going to get into

4 this or --

5 MR. SMITH: All I have done is we've

6 provided this transcript to the plaintiffs --

7 not the transcript, the recording.

8 MR. LOWE: Well, it's a simple

9 question. Since I'm asking the questions now,

10 it's a simple question. You want to get into

11 this? If you do and you want him to answer it,

12 you have to waive the privilege. Otherwise, all

13 these questions about conversations with outside

14 counsel, he's going to have to invoke the

15 privilege.

16 MR. SMITH: And is that different

17 than the statements that he made in the hearing

18 that day?

19 MR. LOWE: He was asked to respond to

20 things during the hearing. I don't know. You

21 can ask him to confirm or deny the statement he

22 made in the hearing, but if you're asking

23 specific questions about conversations he had

24 with outside counsel at a particular place and

25 time, then I think he's going to have to invoke



Page 193

1 the privilege or either you're going to waive

2 it.

3 MR. SMITH: Well, we'll withdraw that

4 question.

5 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) The -- do you

6 remember what your response was in the meeting

7 as to whether you did make contact with outside

8 counsel?

9 A. My recollection of what was said in

10 the meeting on April the 12th was -- was no

11 discussion at all about any substantive contact

12 or discussion between me and outside counsel.

13 That's my memory of it.

14 Q. And so did you in the meeting deny

15 doing it?

16 A. I don't -- I don't recall whether I

17 did or didn't. I did not want to discuss either

18 there or here communications between me and the

19 county's outside counsel.

20 Q. And so -- so you didn't admit it or

21 deny it?

22 A. I think I made a statement. I don't

23 -- I'm not positive of this, but I think I made

24 a statement that I was not going to address the

25 substance of any communications between the



Page 194

1 outside counsel and me. I think I said that, or

2 words to that effect.

3 MR. LOWE: I think Mr. Carrington

4 opened the hearing by making that accusation,

5 because I was in the hearing.

6 MR. SMITH: Well, that's what I just

7 read.

8 MR. LOWE: I know. He made the

9 accusations. I don't think he confirmed them or

10 denied them.

11 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Well, I'm going one

12 question at a time to the -- the -- and so my

13 question was, did you deny it in the hearing

14 as -- as a contact that you made on the night of

15 April the 8th?

16 A. My recollection, what I said in the

17 hearing had to do with the validity of this

18 purported order that he had given me. And I

19 recall trying to explain how an order can be

20 unlawful and how a lawyer cannot be ordered to

21 do something that violates the Professional

22 Rules of Conduct. That was not a lawful order.

23 There was a lot of discussion of that.

24 Q. What I mean to be asking is, in the

25 meeting you explained why you did it and why you



Page 195

1 thought it was appropriate to do it; isn't that

2 correct?

3 A. I don't -- I don't think that's

4 correct at all.

5 MR. LOWE: Well, if you have a

6 transcript, don't you think that would be

7 helpful?

8 MR. SMITH: I'm trying to lay a

9 foundation for --

10 MR. LOWE: You laid the foundation,

11 there was a hearing, there's a transcript.

12 MR. SMITH: Well, but the transcript

13 is --

14 MR. LOWE: Show him the transcript,

15 read it, if you want to know what he said.

16 MR. SMITH: Come on, come on.

17 MR. LOWE: I am coming on, I'm coming

18 on hard. Get -- cut to it.

19 MR. SMITH: All right. Should we

20 take a break?

21 MR. LOWE: No, we don't need to take

22 a break, we need to terminate this deposition.

23 MR. SMITH: Well, then let me ask my

24 questions. These are appropriate questions, you

25 know these are appropriate questions.



Page 196

1 MR. LOWE: It's redundant,

2 repetitive, irrelevant.

3 MR. SMITH: Bad lawyering, stupid

4 counsel, you can put any label you want to on

5 it, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't keep going

6 ahead.

7 MR. LOWE: I'm not calling you that.

8 I wouldn't signify anyone that.

9 MR. SMITH: Well, I --

10 MR. LOWE: And don't -- look, you're

11 making similar insinuations to things he did and

12 that's -- that's not what we're doing.

13 MR. SMITH: No, that's not. I've

14 asked --

15 MR. LOWE: I want you to get to the

16 point and ask whatever you want.

17 MR. SMITH: Good. Good.

18 MR. LOWE: And get the truth out of

19 him and let's go.

20 MR. SMITH: Good. A straight answer

21 would be helpful.

22 MR. LOWE: Well, you got to ask a

23 straight question, you can't ask these

24 convoluted, rambling questions.

25 MR. SMITH: Well, come on, Clay.



Page 197

1 MR. LOWE: Come on, David. You come

2 on.

3 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Mr. Sewell, in the

4 meeting, you've discussed here today that you

5 talked about an unlawful order; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it was your judgment that being

8 told not to talk to outside counsel was an

9 unlawful order; is that right?

10 A. It was my judgment that an order that

11 had on its face or in its effect a directive for

12 me to violate the Rules of Professional Conduct

13 is unlawful and is not to be followed.

14 Q. Well, I'd rather get a direct answer

15 and then allow you to explain. Were you saying

16 that the order in the April 8th memo was such an

17 unlawful order as it pertains to not having

18 contact with outside counsel?

19 A. I believe I said that.

20 Q. And so am I correct that because of

21 your application of the rules of ethics and

22 professional conduct, that you had that conduct

23 anyway, that conduct with outside -- contact

24 with outside counsel, excuse me.

25 A. I -- outside counsel contacted me all



Page 198

1 through the day of April 8th.

2 Q. And so is that a yes, that you had

3 contact?

4 A. It is what it is.

5 Q. Well, I mean, I know it is what it is

6 you say. You say they contacted you. I'm

7 asking did you contact them?

8 A. I -- I answered a question, several

9 questions, from outside lawyers all day long

10 that were contacting me with requests for what

11 is going on and what are we supposed to do.

12 Q. And did you -- am I correct, then,

13 that you didn't comply with the directive of

14 April 8th?

15 A. The directive of April 8th put me on

16 administrative leave with pay. I complied, I

17 left the courthouse.

18 Q. I mean in terms of the paragraph that

19 says don't have contact with the lawyers, you

20 did have contact with outside legal counsel?

21 A. I spoke to lawyers several times

22 during the day.

23 Q. After you got the leave notice?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did those contacts continue up



Page 199

1 until 9:30 that night?

2 A. I don't remember what time they

3 continued to.

4 Q. Okay. Would you deny that they went

5 on that late?

6 A. I don't know. I spoke with county

7 commissioners calling me on April the 8th, and

8 county employees and county department heads,

9 all of whom were calling asking for guidance

10 about what to do with a particular matter. I do

11 not believe that it's a lawful order to order me

12 not to talk to my clients or to the lawyers that

13 I supervise. I don't -- I think one

14 commissioner acting alone has no such authority.

15 Q. And is there any documentation,

16 without getting into its content, is there any

17 documentation on April the 8th, before you had

18 contact with outside counsel on the subject of

19 this objection you had to the instructions in

20 the memo?

21 A. I don't understand your question.

22 Q. Did you -- is there any evidence of

23 your objection to the lawfulness of this

24 directive other than you saying it now?




Page 200

1 A. Let's just say that April the 8th,

2 Exhibit Number 3, was not the first time I had

3 been given a purported instruction to not talk

4 to or withhold information from other of my

5 clients or some of the county's lawyers. And I

6 didn't consider it then, I don't consider it now

7 to be lawful.

8 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) This memo doesn't say

9 anything about withholding information, does it?

10 A. It says you are instructed to have no

11 verbal, written or other contact. Applied

12 broadly, if I'm called and asked a question, I'm

13 not to answer the question.

14 Q. Is it correct that after your meeting

15 with Commissioners Carrington and Brown on April

16 the 2nd, that you had contact -- without getting

17 into the content of it, that you had contact

18 with outside counsel that was contrary to an

19 order given to you?

20 A. There was no order given to me on

21 April 2nd. I'm sorry, you're confusing me with

22 your date, you said April 2nd.

23 Q. I did.

24 A. I don't understand your question.

25 Q. On the April 11th transcript, still



Page 201

1 in this opening statement, the following is said

2 by Commissioner Carrington: This is not the

3 first time that Mr. Sewell had tried to

4 arbitrarily stop previously scheduled bankruptcy

5 settlement negotiation to the detriment of the

6 county. In fact, there was a similar event just

7 six days earlier on Tuesday, April 2nd, that led

8 a majority of the commissioners to decide to

9 place Mr. Sewell on administrative leave with

10 pay. Commissioner Brown and I met with

11 Mr. Sewell for several hours in the afternoon of

12 Tuesday, April 2nd. During our conversation we

13 had a lengthy discussion about Mr. Sewell's

14 improper attempt to arbitrarily stop bankruptcy

15 negotiations in December 2012. On December 11,

16 2012, during the first afternoon of an intense

17 three-day negotiating session with a significant

18 number of our creditors in New York City,

19 Mr. Sewell instructed our outside counsel to

20 stop negotiations, even though Commissioner

21 Stephens and I were present and actively

22 involved and some progress was being made.

23 Fortunately our outside counsel convinced

24 Mr. Sewell later that evening that his

25 instructions were not in the best interests of



Page 202

1 the county and the negotiations proceeded for

2 the next few days.

3 Did you deny that in the committee

4 meeting of April 12, 2013?

5 A. Did I deny what?

6 Q. Those facts that involved you?


8 MR. LOWE: Those -- do you mean

9 accusations?

10 MR. SMITH: Yes, those accusations.

11 I asked if he denied it.

12 MR. LOWE: You said do you deny those

13 facts.

14 MR. SMITH: I first said --

15 MR. LOWE: Look -- listen, do you

16 have an answer to whatever it is he asked?

17 A. I don't recall, sitting here today,

18 what dates or times I may have given

19 instructions to outside counsel about

20 negotiations. I mean, that's something that

21 occurred frequently.

22 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) The next thing said

23 in the hearing transcript is that during the

24 April 2nd conversation -- April 2nd

25 conversation -- Mr. Sewell was clearly told and



Page 203

1 he acknowledged that he was the attorney and

2 that the county represented by the commissioners

3 was the client. I was disappointed and quite

4 frankly shocked to learn that several hours

5 later Mr. Sewell arbitrarily canceled a

6 previously scheduled general obligation debt

7 settlement conversation at 10:00 a.m. the next

8 morning, Wednesday, April 3rd.

9 In the committee meeting of April

10 12th, 2013, did you make any denial to that

11 statement?

12 A. Which part of the statement?

13 Q. Any part of it or all of it.


15 MR. SMITH: Can we take a break?

16 THE WITNESS: Sure.

17 MR. WILSON: About how long do you

18 expect?

19 MR. SMITH: You know, I don't know,

20 but I'm not going to be trying to go the seven

21 hours, there's no doubt about that.

22 MR. LOWE: Well, the last break you

23 took was 35, 40 minutes.

24 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I'm going to do

25 better this time.



Page 204

1 MR. LOWE: Does that mean more?

2 MR. SMITH: No, of course not.

3 MR. ADELSTEIN: Why don't we set a

4 definite time?

5 MR. SMITH: Sure. No, that's fair

6 enough. Let's say 15 minutes.


8 (Whereupon, a short recess was had,

9 4:39 p.m. - 4:53 p.m.)

10 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Let me know when

11 you're ready.

12 A. I'm good.

13 Q. Was one of the concerns about your

14 style expressed to you by Commissioner

15 Carrington in the meeting with Commissioner

16 Brown about how aggressive and seemingly

17 motivated by self-interest you were at times?

18 Was that a topic presented to you?

19 A. No, not that I recall.

20 Q. In the committee meeting of April the

21 12th, did you say in one context, this is my

22 instructions, if I say we need to go neutral, we

23 need to go neutral, when I say speed up, we need

24 to speed up.

25 Do you remember saying?



Page 205

1 A. Vaguely. I don't remember the

2 context of it.




6 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Before we look at

7 County Exhibit 10, as I recall your testimony

8 earlier about the privileged memo of April 2nd,

9 you said that the names of the senders on that

10 memo are you, Theo Lawson, Ted Hosp and Grace

11 Murphy. And you were less than sure about Grace

12 Murphy, but is that your memory of the four

13 names of who sent that memo?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is that the memo that your theory

16 is led to your separation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And have any of the other three been

19 separated from their job assignment with the

20 county?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Lawson still works for the

23 county, doesn't he?

24 A. Yeah, he does.

25 Q. And so your colleague in the county



Page 206

1 attorney's office who was on the memo is still

2 performing the same job as before; right?

3 A. I don't know if he's performing --

4 he's still employed. I don't know if he's

5 performing the same --

6 Q. You don't know what he does?

7 A. Right. It's my understanding that

8 Ted Hosp, who was the lead outside lawyer at

9 your law firm, has been taken off the case.

10 I may be wrong about that.

11 Q. Do you have any evidence of that?

12 A. I do, but I think it would be

13 privileged.

14 Q. He's still of record in the case and

15 he's moved to Montgomery.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Do you -- and Ms. Murphy is here with

18 us today; is that right?

19 A. She's sitting in the room with us.

20 Q. So according to your testimony, four

21 people sent the memo and one got fired?


23 A. And the other -- other three got

24 their relationship and representing the county

25 in this case significantly altered, is my



Page 207

1 understanding. But again, you know --

2 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Are you the only one

3 who's been terminated from employment of the

4 people who sent the memo?

5 A. As far as I know.

6 Q. All right. Let me ask you to look at

7 County Exhibit 10. Is this the agreement that

8 represents the terms of your settlement with the

9 county?

10 A. Appears to be.

11 Q. And you were in this April 12th

12 committee meeting that we've talked about during

13 your testimony today when the beginning of this

14 deal was struck; is that right?

15 A. Well, when -- when the need for an

16 agreement was first broached, yes.

17 Q. And then the broad financial terms

18 were outlined; right?

19 A. Well, the broad terms generally were

20 outlined.

21 Q. At the end of the April 13th

22 committee -- that was really my question.

23 A. April 12.

24 Q. Excuse me, April 12, 2013 meeting;

25 right?



Page 208

1 A. The -- yeah.

2 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you

3 about the context in which that occurred. Is it

4 correct that this committee, the administrative

5 services committee, when it takes action it's to

6 be referred on to the full commission in a

7 regular full commission meeting; is that right?

8 A. In -- in the normal course of things,

9 that would be the normal course of operations.

10 Q. Yeah. And so in this meeting --

11 A. Of course, there was nothing normal

12 about this event.

13 Q. But in the meeting of April the 12th,

14 the discussion was had and then a vote was

15 taken; is that right?

16 A. There was a vote taken.

17 Q. And the vote in the committee was to

18 consider a resolution to terminate your

19 employment for cause; is that right?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. And --

22 A. Although I never saw -- I never

23 saw -- I don't recall having seen any document.

24 I just don't know -- I don't know that. I mean,

25 I think there must have been something to vote



Page 209

1 on but I don't think I ever saw it.

2 Q. If your employment had been

3 terminated for cause, it would have had the

4 effect of denying or nullifying or preventing

5 the payment of the retirement conversion

6 benefit; is that right?

7 A. No. I don't believe that it would.

8 Q. Well, if it were for cause and that

9 were upheld as the state of things, if that were

10 the outcome, does it have any effect on your

11 retirement conversion benefit at all?

12 A. I don't think that it does.

13 Q. So your testimony today is that at

14 the end of the committee meeting on April 12th

15 when they voted to pass a resolution

16 recommending that your employment be terminated

17 for cause, that you were not in any peril of

18 having the approximate nine-month salary

19 continuation period be pulled away and not owed

20 to you? Is that your testimony?

21 A. Not my -- my testimony is what I

22 said.

23 Q. Well, I'm asking -- why I'm seeking

24 clarification is, are you saying that it wasn't

25 at risk with that vote?



Page 210

1 A. I told you -- you asked me the

2 question, I told you what I thought. I don't --

3 whether it was at risk or not or who might have

4 thought it was at risk, I mean, I -- I don't

5 know what other people were thinking.

6 Q. No, I'm not asking what other people

7 were thinking. I didn't -- did you think it was

8 at risk potentially?

9 A. Well, everything was at risk

10 potentially.

11 Q. Including the retirement conversion

12 benefit in the face of that vote; right?

13 A. Potentially.

14 Q. And so the resolution that was made

15 after the vote that -- in which you kept the

16 retirement conversion benefit was -- was that

17 item that possibly was at risk; is that right?

18 A. I don't know. I --

19 Q. The retirement conversion benefit is

20 paid to you under your severance agreement; is

21 that right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. That's my term. It's called

24 agreement, what we've marked as County Exhibit

25 10.



Page 211

1 So other than the retirement

2 conversion benefit, were you paid any money

3 as -- in your settlement deal?

4 A. I believe so.

5 Q. And I'm including in the retirement

6 conversion benefit there the vacation pay, which

7 is some -- some number of weeks, I think; is

8 that right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. So other than that amount, whatever

11 that is, there wasn't any other money paid to

12 you in the context of your involuntarily

13 retiring, was there?

14 A. Not that I'm aware of.

15 Q. And were you represented by counsel

16 on April the 12th personally?

17 A. I don't know if I was officially

18 represented or not.

19 Q. Your counsel here today, Mr. Lowe,

20 was with you that day; is that right?

21 A. He was in the room. He wasn't with

22 me.

23 Q. He was there as a colleague, friend?

24 A. He was there.

25 Q. All right. And did you have any



Page 212

1 thought that you had a claim as some sort of

2 whistle blower?

3 A. When?

4 Q. April 12th, the day that this deal

5 was made?

6 A. I don't recall when I might have had

7 a particular thought.

8 Q. In the settlement you weren't paid

9 any money separate from involuntary retirement

10 in the sense of different money for other

11 claims, were you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And as a lawyer, you're well versed

14 in what rights you may or may not have; is that

15 right?

16 A. I -- I'm a lawyer.

17 Q. But your -- your honest assessment

18 would be that you're a good lawyer, isn't it?

19 A. I'm a lawyer. I'm not here to boast

20 or brag or denigrate or anything else.

21 Q. All right. If you look at paragraph

22 five of the County Exhibit 10, am I correct that

23 you have received no greater benefits, rights or

24 privileges than anyone who takes involuntary

25 retirement?



Page 213

1 A. I'm not aware that I've received any

2 additional, extra, greater things.

3 Q. All right. Paragraph eight of County

4 Exhibit 10 provides confirmation of your

5 professional responsibility and imposes

6 contractual consequences for a breach of that;

7 is that right?


9 MR. LOWE: Asks for a legal

10 conclusion. Are we contesting his agreement in

11 this case or -- what's the relevance of going

12 through his agreement? Are you -- you're not

13 going to contest it for some reason, are you?

14 MR. SMITH: I'm getting so close to

15 being finished.

16 MR. LOWE: I know, but this is

17 important.

18 MR. SMITH: It is important,

19 absolutely.

20 MR. LOWE: I mean, he has an

21 agreement with the county. You're not

22 questioning the validity of it, are you?

23 MR. SMITH: Oh, no.

24 MR. LOWE: You're not questioning

25 whether he's complied with it, are you?



Page 214

1 MR. SMITH: Well, today's my day to

2 ask questions, not answer them. And these are

3 questions --

4 MR. LOWE: Questions relevant to this

5 litigation. We're not here to open the door to

6 his life.

7 MR. SMITH: You produced this

8 document, so it's clearly --

9 MR. LOWE: It's a public record.

10 MR. SMITH: I'm saying it's in the

11 scope of what we're here about.

12 MR. LOWE: I don't see it and I don't

13 believe the plaintiffs' attorney would agree to

14 that, but, you know, finish up. Ask him --

15 I want to know if you're contesting his

16 compliance with this agreement.

17 MR. SMITH: And I want to know

18 whether you're instructing him not to answer my

19 questions --

20 MR. LOWE: No, no. Did you hear me

21 say that?

22 MR. SMITH: -- unless I answer you.

23 MR. LOWE: No, I'm asking you a

24 question.

25 MR. SMITH: I know, I'm saying --



Page 215

1 MR. LOWE: You're not going to answer

2 it, though, are you?

3 MR. SMITH: I'm trying to get

4 finished and I'm close.

5 MR. LOWE: Well, let's make a point.

6 Let's -- this has nothing to do with this case.

7 All you're doing is berating him about an

8 agreement --

9 MR. SMITH: That is not true. That

10 is not true.

11 MR. LOWE: Yes, it is.

12 MR. SMITH: I am not berating him.

13 MR. LOWE: Oh, yes, you are.

14 MR. SMITH: This is -- no, I am not.

15 MR. LOWE: You're intimidating him

16 with this agreement. You're absolutely implying

17 that he has some obligation that he's violated

18 with the county. You know you are.

19 MR. SMITH: No --

20 MR. LOWE: Yes, you are. That's the

21 way I'm reading it.

22 MR. SMITH: Well, you're wrong on all

23 counts. You're absolutely wrong on all counts.

24 MR. LOWE: Okay. Well, then let's go

25 through it some more.



Page 216

1 MR. SMITH: And -- and this is a case

2 that involves issues about privilege and I am

3 confirming a privileged topic right now for my

4 record.

5 MR. LOWE: He will admit and confirm

6 to you all day and all night that he has a duty

7 to protect the privilege of the county.

8 MR. SMITH: What are you doing now?

9 MR. LOWE: I don't know, arguing with

10 you it sounds like.

11 MR. SMITH: You're really just

12 beating me up to prolong this.

13 MR. LOWE: No, I'm not beating you

14 up.

15 MR. SMITH: Yeah, you are.

16 MR. LOWE: All right. Let's stop.

17 Ask your question.

18 MR. SMITH: Come on.

19 MR. WILSON: The only thing -- I did

20 not show him this agreement. The only thing I

21 asked about is whether he considered it

22 confidential. If you want a stipulation from me

23 that I'm going to -- not argue that it's

24 invalid, I'll give you that stipulation. I'm

25 not sure what this has to do with anything.



Page 217


2 MR. WILSON: You could just ask him

3 is it a binding agreement -- says it's a

4 contract.

5 MR. SMITH: You know, if we had

6 talked before the deposition about what

7 everyone's objectives were, then that would make

8 some sense, but as it is, I think I just need --

9 MR. WILSON: Go ahead.

10 MR. SMITH: -- to do the best I can

11 to ask the questions about it.

12 MR. WILSON: Okay. Go ahead.

13 MR. SMITH: And I think that in this

14 case where your objectives are what they seem to

15 be, that this is highly relevant.

16 MR. WILSON: Go ahead.

17 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Now, to go back and

18 cover what I was in the middle of trying to

19 cover, is it true that you did not receive any

20 money on top of retirement or sick leave

21 conversion benefits to compensate you as a

22 whistle-blower victim of some unlawful

23 retaliation? Is that true?

24 MR. LOWE: Where does it say whistle

25 blower in here?



Page 218

1 MR. SMITH: It doesn't.

2 MR. LOWE: Well, why are you throwing

3 that in here? Your question -- I'm confused.

4 MR. SMITH: Well, just let me --

5 please, please.

6 MR. LOWE: That's -- I just think

7 that's an improper question, but -- now that I

8 know that, just ask it again, that that's not

9 part of the document.

10 MR. SMITH: Would you please read my

11 question?



14 MR. WILSON: Asked and answered.

15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Please?

16 A. As I've told you before, the only

17 compensation that I'm receiving is sick leave,

18 retirement. I think we've covered that.

19 Q. Has the county performed as of today

20 all of its obligations under the agreement?


22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) To your knowledge,

24 have they complied with the agreement as of

25 today?



Page 219

1 A. I don't -- they have complied as of

2 today with paying the sick leave conversion

3 benefit. Other -- other benefits, I don't know

4 if it fully paid other benefits or not.

5 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any

6 failure to perform as of today?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. What is it?

9 A. Pay the health insurance claim. I

10 don't have any evidence that has been paid. And

11 I'm getting letters that it has not been paid as

12 recently as about -- I don't know, about 10 days

13 ago.

14 Q. And what is the dollar amount of this

15 item?

16 A. I think it's $800.

17 Q. And is this the one that we've

18 addressed previously?

19 A. It's the one question we've discussed

20 previously.

21 Q. And is it the one that I understood

22 has been corrected?

23 A. The one that you represented has

24 been, yes.

25 Q. Have you communicated with me before



Page 220

1 this moment, again, that it hasn't been

2 resolved?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Well, then send me the

5 collection notices because it's not my error and

6 it's not the county's error --

7 MR. WILSON: Is that a question?

8 MR. SMITH: No, it's not.

9 MR. WILSON: I thought we were here

10 to ask questions.

11 MR. SMITH: No, it's not, it's a

12 debate because we're having debates.

13 MR. WILSON: So don't spend my time

14 having a debate about whether an

15 eight-hundred-dollar claim has been paid. All

16 right?

17 MR. SMITH: Break for a couple of

18 minutes.



21 had, 5:15 p.m. - 5:17 p.m.)

22 MR. SMITH: Okay. Thank you. We

23 don't have anything further.

24 MR. WILSON: I have one.

25 RE-EXAMINATION



Page 221

1 BY MR. WILSON:

2 Q. Mr. Smith asked you about County

3 Exhibit 9. Do you have that there? That is the

4 redlined version of the resolution that you

5 discussed.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I want you to listen to a

8 portion of the April 12th, 2013 administrative

9 services committee meeting, and tell me if you

10 can identify the speaker.

11 MR. SMITH: Excuse me. Can you pause

12 that one second?

13 MR. WILSON: Yeah.

14 MR. SMITH: Can you identify the time

15 point in the tape? I mean, sometimes you can

16 track that, you know.

17 MR. WILSON: Can we?

18 MS. KOORJI: I can give you the exact

19 point in the tape.

20 MR. SMITH: Yeah, just so I could

21 know.

22 MS. KOORJI: Sure.

23 MR. SMITH: That would help me find

24 it on mine.

25 MS. KOORJI: Yeah, no problem. It's



Page 222

1 34 -- 34 minutes.

2 MR. SMITH: Okay. Thank you. Who is

3 the speaker going to be?

4 MR. WILSON: Well, I'm asking him.

5 That's the question.

6 MR. SMITH: All right. Thank you.

7 MR. WILSON: Start it again, Alaizah.

8 MS. KOORJI: Okay. Ready?

9 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

10 (PLAYING RECORDING.) There are

11 changes to the resolution that you need to make

12 to make that document comply with the existing

13 law of Alabama and you got the memo from me

14 about that. (RECORDING STOPPED.)

15 A. It's me.

16 Q. (BY MR. WILSON) That's you, and you

17 recognized yourself as saying there are changes

18 in the resolution that you need to make to make

19 that document comply with the existing law of

20 Alabama and you got the memo from me about that?

21 A. I -- I didn't hear all of it, but I

22 recognize my voice.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Sounds right.

25 Q. Was Exhibit 9, which is your redline,



Page 223

1 the proposal you made in your April 2 memo to

2 bring the resolution of organization into

3 compliance with the law?

4 MR. LOWE: Is that privileged? Do

5 you need to take another break to think about

6 that one?

7 MR. SMITH: It seems privileged to

8 me. I can't think of any --

9 MR. WILSON: Number 9 was discussed

10 publicly, you established that, at a hearing.

11 MR. SMITH: I understand.

12 MR. MITCHELL: You talked about it in

13 the context of the March --

14 MR. SMITH: I was talking about it

15 only in the context of an open meeting.

16 MR. WILSON: Do you have --

17 MR. SMITH: You're trying to make it

18 into something else.

19 MR. WILSON: Well, I'm asking if this

20 was the implementation of what he was

21 recommending. If the answer to that is yes,

22 then I think you probably waived the April 2

23 memo.

24 MR. MITCHELL: Not on that basis.

25 MR. LOWE: Does anyone have a copy of



Page 224

1 the April 2nd memo that -- could reference this?

2 MR. SMITH: We assert the privilege

3 on that question, respectfully.

4 MR. LOWE: Well, that settles it for

5 them, so --

6 MR. WILSON: I suspect Barnett Wright

7 does.

8 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry?

9 MR. WILSON: I suspect Barnett Wright

10 has a copy.

11 That's fine, if you're asserting

12 privilege, I would like that on the record. And

13 then --

14 MR. SMITH: Was I on the record?

15 MR. WILSON: Was it?


17 MR. LOWE: And then as we've done all

18 day, I instruct him not to answer based on

19 privilege.

20 MR. WILSON: And that's fine.

21 Nothing further. Thank you very much

22 for your time.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

24 THE REPORTER: One thing I need to

25 put on the record, this is a read and sign?



1 MR. WILSON: This is a read and sign.

2 THE REPORTER: Thank you.

3

4 FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT

5

6 (Said deposition was concluded at 5:20 p.m. on

7 the 30th day of July, 2013.)

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25



1 CERTIFICATE

2

3 STATE OF ALABAMA

4 AT LARGE

5 I hereby certify that the above and

6 foregoing deposition was taken down by me in

7 stenotype and the questions and answers thereto

8 were transcribed by means of computer-aided

9 transcription and that the foregoing represents

10 a true and correct transcript of the testimony

11 given by said witness upon said deposition.

12 I further certify that I am neither

13 of counsel nor of kin to the parties to the

14 action, nor am I in anywise interested in the

15 result of said cause.

16 I further certify that I am duly

17 licensed as a Certified Court Reporter by the

18 Alabama Board of Court Reporting as evidenced by

19 the ACCR number following my name below.

20

21

22

23 Jane B. Elliott, CCR

24 ACCR #306 - Expires 9-30-13

25 Notary Public - Expires 11-09-16



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Aa2:5,5,5 4:2 6:24 7:2,5

7:8,9,10,16,19,21,258:7,10,21 9:7,9,12,179:19,24 10:3,10,1510:18,19,20,20 11:211:4,6,7,13,17,2212:2,13,17,18,21,2412:24 13:2,6,8,11,1513:20 14:6,10,13,1714:17,20,23 15:2,515:10,12,14,17,2116:17,22 17:5,7,2018:3,4,8,17 19:9,1719:21 20:9,12,21,2421:2,4,9,13,16,2522:2,5,14,16,20,2422:25 23:4,9,10,1923:23 24:1,4,7,10,1325:1,4,9,13,16,18,2125:24 26:19,23,2427:2,6,9,12,14,17,1727:21,23,25 28:3,728:11,16,21,23 29:329:5,7,8,8,11,15,1730:11 31:6,7,11,1431:17,21,24 32:3,5,832:10,10,15,18,21,2233:1,4,11,12,14,1833:23,25 34:2,4,5,8,934:15,17,21,21,2435:3,3,5,12,14,15,1635:19,22 36:20,2537:9,13,14,15,2138:3,6,17 39:3,10,1239:13,16,16,19,21,2540:2,3,5,7,10,14,2441:6,13,13,19 42:2,742:17,20 43:2,6,7,943:24 44:3,6,8,11,2045:2,12,13 46:2,1046:12,12,13,18,19,1946:25 47:2,10,12,1447:18,20,21,22,23,2448:5,6,9,15,19,24

49:1,7,13,20,24 50:250:5,8,13,13,15,1650:19,25 51:3,7,9,1151:13,14,17,19,21,2252:3,5,10,12,15,1552:15,19,22,25 53:553:7,11,11,15,19,2054:1,6,18 55:1,7,1155:14,15,18,23 56:1156:13,13,14 57:1,1557:23,25 58:7,2459:1,5,9,13,15,2060:6 61:9,11,14,1561:22 62:4,22,2563:6,16 64:12 65:2,665:11,13,17,18,2366:3,15,17,17,2367:1,25 68:15,2169:8,13,18,22,2570:7,11,21,21,22,2471:3,5,6,8,13,18,2172:1,3,3,8,11,18,2172:23,25 73:2,3,6,973:12,14,21 74:2,874:10,14,15,21,2575:4,8,13,17 76:1276:17,21 77:1,5,9,1277:16,20,22,24,2578:19,25 79:5,5,1279:16,16,22,24,2580:6,11,17 81:1,1381:18,19 82:2,5,1082:11,17,21,22 83:283:8,12,15,19 84:3,784:15,20,21 85:4,2286:5,9,11,13,15,1686:18,22 87:1,2,9,987:11,11 88:3,7,7,8,888:9,10,11,14,17,2188:24 89:5,7,10,1389:15,18,21,22,2490:2,4,5,13,17,20,2190:22,25 91:1,6,9,1791:21,25 92:3,4,8,1392:16,20,23,25 93:393:4,6,7,7,9,13,16,20

93:23,25 94:1,4,5,7,994:11,13,18,21,23,2595:2 96:4,8,11,17,2397:2,7,22 98:6,8,1098:10,13,18,23,2399:20,21 100:4,5,6100:13,16,19,22101:5,8,8,15,23102:8,19 103:7,13,13103:15,20,25 104:4,9104:12,19,23 105:2,4105:8,9,12,19,25106:4,7,10,12,16,20107:1,3,9,15,20,23108:1,5,10,14,15109:3,8,10,12,15,15109:17,21 110:16,18110:23 111:2,7,14,16111:23 112:6,8,12,14112:16,16,18,19,24113:4,12,17,21 114:2114:5,7,8,10,18,20115:2,8,12,24 116:5116:6,11,21 117:2,8117:12,13,14 118:3,7118:10,13,15 119:1,4119:6,12,14,17 120:2120:15,16 121:16,21122:5,7,12,14,18,23122:25 123:1,6,17,19123:23,24 124:3,7,8124:11,12,12,14,15124:18,21 125:1,10125:10,12,13,15,15125:20,24 126:2,8,10126:13,16,18,21127:4,10,12,14,16,16128:1,5,8,11,17129:6,10,16,18,24130:2,4,8,9,11,20,23131:2,2,9,13,14,14131:16,17,18,24132:2,8,11,14 133:6133:12,25 134:6,18134:22 135:1,1,7,7135:19 136:2,6,14,22

136:25 137:5,8,12,14137:15,17,20 138:13138:22 139:1,6,10,10139:12,18 140:5,11140:15,19,20,22,23141:1,5,12,14,20,24142:7,23,25 143:7,10143:13,14,15,15,16143:20,24 144:4,9,12144:15,19,21,25145:3,8,9,11,13,15145:18 146:3,9,13,18146:25 147:16,18,22148:3,8,10,11,13,15148:17,18,24 149:17149:21,24 150:4,7,12150:16,19,22,23,25151:4,6,8,12,18,22152:2,8,11,14,22153:7,12,12,24 154:9154:12,20,23,24,25155:3,7,8,10,12,12155:20,25 156:1,3,10156:12,15,19,22157:3,20,25 158:5,11158:11,16,19,23159:2,3,10,12,14,16160:11,17,21 161:5,6161:8,15,17,19,19,20161:24,24 162:1,1,3162:6,19,21,25 163:4163:6,12,14,23 164:1164:4,8,9,11,11,18164:20 165:1,3,5,10165:13,15,17,22,22166:4,8,8,19,22167:5,8,10,15,18,20167:24 168:4,11,12168:17,18,25 169:4,7169:8,10,12,14,18,21169:21 170:2,7,12,21170:23 171:1,7,9,15171:24 172:3,6,7,10172:13,14,14 173:5174:15,23,24,24175:2,5,6 176:1,3,9



Page 2

176:13,16,20,23177:1,4,13,18,22178:4,8,12,16,19,25179:1,20 180:1,5,12180:20,20,24 181:1,2181:4,9,12,17,20,23182:11,17,20,24183:8,13,16,20,22184:2,8,14,20,21,22184:24 185:5,10,16185:17,20,22,23186:1,5,7,12 187:11187:22 188:11,25189:10,15,21 190:4190:18 191:2,6,10,14192:8,10,24 193:9,16193:22,22,24 194:12194:14,16,20,22,23195:3,5,8,11,11,20195:22 196:20,22197:6,10,11,14,19,25198:2,4,8,8,15,21,24199:2,6,10,11,21200:1,3,10,12,20,24201:6,8,13,17 202:5202:17 203:5,12,14203:15 204:3,8,12,18204:19 205:1,4,14,17205:21,24 206:3,7,12206:16,19,23 207:5207:10,15,19,23208:1,6,8,11,14,16208:16,18,20,22209:7,12,15,21 210:1210:9,13,18,22 211:4211:9,14,17,21,23,24212:1,3,6,7,12,13,16212:16,18,19,19213:1,6,9 214:9,23215:5 216:1,3,6,22217:3,3,21 218:16,22219:1,7,9,16,19,23220:3,7,11,14,17,20221:6,7 222:15,21,24223:10,25 224:10,25225:1 226:10,17

aback73:13abide24:22abilities48:2,13ability10:1 56:25 57:2able87:2 111:20about7:8 14:15 16:14 17:19

18:23 19:6,12,1720:17,18,19 21:625:6 26:15 28:5,829:21 30:2,11,13,1330:19 31:1,4,15 32:136:12 37:11 38:3,1439:15 42:1,3,6 43:1443:15 44:24 45:4,745:11,23 46:2,5,1148:13 49:5,21,2550:2 52:14 55:13,1955:21 56:11,15 57:259:24 60:12,21 61:961:25 62:6 63:16,2064:10,19 65:10 67:869:14 70:12 74:1975:12,20 82:16 84:2085:2,12,20 90:993:17 94:17,23 95:1695:23 96:10 98:2399:13 100:1,7 101:6101:9,22 102:16103:8 107:17,19109:18 110:20112:10,12 113:16,23114:16,17 115:6,12116:10,20,23 117:7118:23,25 120:21121:5,7 123:8,25124:1 134:20,22136:2 138:10 140:3142:2 144:7 145:25148:6 149:5,6 150:8150:14,15,17 153:18

154:3 155:10,25156:3,8,24 160:3,4,8160:15 161:9,18,20161:22 162:1,3 163:2163:9 165:20,21166:21 167:13 170:1170:5,11,24 171:10172:24 174:4 176:19176:21 177:5,6 180:8180:13 181:7,21182:13 183:4 185:6185:13,24 188:7191:14,16,23 192:13192:23 193:11 197:5199:10 200:9 201:13202:19 203:17,21204:13,16 205:8,11206:10 207:12 208:3208:12 214:11 215:7216:2,21 217:6,11219:12,12 220:14221:2 222:14,20223:5,12,14

above6:11 226:5absolutely26:17 27:21 76:12

83:2,8 127:8 131:8131:18 142:25 143:4165:15 213:19215:16,23

abundance64:23accept140:20 141:15acceptable47:8 75:16access96:6 110:1 179:7

184:2,3,5,6accomplish134:21accordance116:15according157:5 206:20

ACCR2:2 226:19,24accurate107:25 131:8accurately120:10accusation194:4accusations194:9 202:9,10acknowledge62:3 63:17 148:23

165:13acknowledged203:1acquire94:6across136:13 142:9 175:7act36:8 42:16 154:23

163:3,7 168:2,4,8,12168:19 169:2,6,10170:4,8,14,20 171:10171:12 172:2,9

acted79:13 80:3 165:4

188:12acting6:3 199:14action1:6,11,16 74:20 88:5

124:9,11 208:5226:14

actions35:25actively80:15 81:5 201:21actually13:21 37:12 68:5 76:3

130:16 132:22143:13 145:13

add43:24 148:10,11

149:17 152:7addition



Page 3

18:21additional16:15 51:2 213:2address44:17 92:15 167:8

168:20 172:7,7,14,15193:24

addressed67:4 163:7 167:4

191:8,9,10 219:18addresses169:2addressing57:10,16 67:1 187:1Adelstein2:16 17:14,17 71:11

71:15 101:3 102:4108:6 109:23 110:6113:14 115:4 118:20204:3,7

adequate133:16adjourned15:12adjust161:18adjusted145:20adjusting151:15adjustments150:10 152:6administrative26:25 27:4 71:1 72:5

73:5,17 74:18 76:1076:15,24 77:3,8,1477:19 78:9,10 79:879:11 88:5 92:18172:17 188:10,15,22189:25 198:16 201:9208:4 221:8

admit193:20 216:5admitted14:8 15:23admittedly

138:5adopt97:22adopted93:23 160:22adoption42:15advance13:8 67:4 171:22

180:13advanced154:7advice20:17 30:19,25 31:10

35:18,20,24 53:1754:6,20,22 55:9 66:266:7,10,16,22 68:1270:10 92:5,6 174:21

advise134:19advisory92:24AEA143:10affect116:25affirm152:17AFFIRMATIVE38:18 50:19 52:3

129:10 136:5after7:11 23:22 24:7 36:20

57:25 70:25 98:3154:1 156:18,23,25157:21 162:16173:23 188:22190:12 198:23200:14 210:15

afternoon32:17,24 52:11,13,17

66:5 80:9,25 82:1084:21 182:14 201:11201:16

again55:2 60:2 80:20 97:6

130:18 131:7 152:1156:4 162:12 167:10172:13,18 177:7178:24 207:1 218:8220:1 222:7

against1:8,13,18 12:19agencies165:8 166:2 167:13agenda130:25 131:20 169:11agendas130:10,16aggressive204:16ago12:3 139:13 219:13agree18:1 24:22 36:4

106:24 127:11134:17 140:17170:15,22,22 182:6214:13

agreed56:24 89:5 140:20agreement5:22 55:17 78:19 89:8

89:10,13,20 90:4137:20 173:24 207:7207:16 210:20,24213:10,12,21 214:16215:8,16 216:20217:3 218:20,24

ahead28:10 41:12 68:8

175:23 196:6 217:9217:12,16

airline82:10airliner81:20airliners81:22al1:9,12,14,17,19Alabama

1:2,9,14 3:7,17,23 4:66:3,8 27:17 41:2574:7,16 92:14 96:2135:25 136:8,20142:23 143:2,3 144:4167:1 222:13,20226:3,18

Alaizah4:10 222:7alert78:16all10:19 15:19 17:18

19:10,19 20:11 21:324:2 26:2 27:6 28:2530:23 31:17 34:2337:4 38:14,24 42:2444:1,13 46:10,1747:20 54:25 57:1863:24 68:21 75:2177:23 78:25 82:1884:7 88:23 90:894:21 95:24 103:3105:5 112:17 113:24113:25 115:22,23117:16,19,20 118:4118:12,16 119:9124:16 125:3 127:19130:15 137:21 138:2140:9,24 141:1,9,17141:18,23,25 142:2143:3,21 146:20148:4 149:19 150:12151:11 154:14,16158:3,10 159:6 160:6160:16 163:7 164:6166:10 167:23,25168:6 170:6,9,15175:7,13,19 177:23185:18 191:8,22192:5,12 193:11195:4,19 197:25198:9 199:9 203:13207:6 208:2 209:11211:25 212:21 213:3215:7,22,23 216:6,6



Page 4

216:16 218:20 219:8220:4,15,19 222:6,21224:17

allegation189:13,14,15alleged59:11 69:20 192:2allow34:23 67:25 197:15allowed28:5,13,19 46:2 61:9allowing24:19almost131:3 132:14 179:2alone49:18 199:14along35:6 116:7 131:21

133:16 148:16already56:9 61:8 75:22

135:17 145:4 184:11also4:9 9:18 12:9 25:23

33:5,5,10 58:1986:12 96:12 109:15109:23 129:19,20130:25 131:18173:19

alter22:22altered206:25although58:19 64:21 104:9

208:22always50:11 103:10 131:4Al.com5:3,11,12,14,15 36:18

36:25 40:6 108:16,18108:23 110:3 113:10114:25 118:18 120:7

am12:21 17:14 30:7

133:20 139:16 140:8168:14 181:10183:10 195:17197:20 198:12212:22 215:12,14216:2 226:12,14,16

ambiguity68:12amend98:14 160:12,24,25

161:25 162:2 173:5174:14

amended151:9 157:20 158:25amending160:8,15 161:2amendment97:10 148:9,18 150:19

156:8 161:14,16164:8,11 165:7,23166:1

amendments130:11America1:7 136:17among169:18 171:18amount130:15 211:10 219:14amounts40:23 125:1Amsouth3:16an9:15 12:2 16:5,9 17:22

17:23 18:11 19:1520:2,3 23:20 25:627:19 33:9 34:2336:17 37:6 38:2242:11 43:4,7 44:1045:6,18 46:23 47:151:19,20,23 53:2154:21 58:14 59:1160:9 62:3,12 63:164:23 72:15 73:474:8 75:16 77:11,24

77:25 79:1 80:10,2581:21 82:18 84:1085:5 87:23 88:2190:24 92:2,11,1294:15 98:1 101:22104:22 105:5,6,13106:24 107:11,17,25108:18,22 113:9,10113:19 114:10,25117:1 118:17 119:5120:7 121:19 122:6,7123:10 125:10132:25 133:2 136:21137:17 138:8 139:24140:13 144:12145:14,23 146:3147:11,15,16 148:9148:22 150:19 151:9151:10 156:7 161:14161:16 162:8,15165:7 166:21,24,24169:20,22 171:24173:2,7,18,22,24174:16,23 175:14177:19 179:15 182:9185:6 186:17 194:19197:5,8,10,16 200:18201:16 202:16207:15 213:20 215:7218:7 220:14 223:15

analysis134:2 145:7,8,10,14

146:1,4,5and6:2,5,16 7:3,9,12,12

7:20 8:1,4,12,15,168:16 9:2,2,13,14,229:24 10:7,12,16,2511:7,8,18 12:3,14,2313:23,24 14:1,2115:15 16:2,12,1917:8,10 18:11,15,1919:5,8,11,14,18 20:320:4,10 21:8,15 22:622:12,17 23:3 24:824:23,23 25:5,10,14

25:20,25 26:20 27:327:22 28:1,8,14,1828:19 29:16 30:7,1430:18,21 31:1,2,8,1532:4,7,11 35:6,736:23 37:20 38:2139:15 40:25 41:4,641:25 42:3,14 43:3,443:11,11,15,18,19,2043:21,22 44:2,2,3,4,544:6,6,7,7,8,10,1545:8,10,13 46:149:15 50:17,24 51:151:15,22,23 52:12,1352:25,25 53:1,2,6,1654:3,20 55:1,12,1956:2,8,15 57:12,1757:24 58:6,10,13,1858:25 59:7,14,1860:22 61:10,11,14,1661:17 62:4,6 63:864:2,18 66:4,9 67:767:19,20 68:12,15,1668:18,25 69:17 70:770:12,13,18 71:6,2472:15,15,23 73:1074:3,6,22 75:5,10,1976:13,18 78:12,15,1779:1 80:14,14,1581:5,5,5,9,19 82:1583:3,6,9,13,21,22,2384:11,15,16,25 85:1785:24 87:22 88:1389:16,19 90:6,2391:7 92:14,17,2493:10,14 94:8 95:795:10,20 96:4,6,1896:24 97:3,10,2598:14 100:15,17,20101:6,8,16,22 102:11102:12,15,19,21103:6,14,18 104:3,12104:13,20 106:1107:4,13,21,21 108:3108:7 109:4,10,25110:11,16 112:10,15



Page 5

113:8,10,10 114:1115:10 116:7,22117:4,17,23,24 118:8118:12,22 119:2,7,16120:6,25 121:7,9,10121:18,23 122:9123:4,8,16 124:16125:2,2,5,21 126:10126:11,19 127:13128:25 129:19,22130:7,11,12,12131:10,10,13,18,20132:15,20,21 133:4133:13 134:1,8,8,14135:2,11 136:10,11137:6,21,22,24 138:8138:8,19 139:2,21140:3,13 141:2,5,13142:11,16,19 143:10143:13,21 144:7145:15,16,17,18146:15 147:8,25148:11,23 149:2,6,9149:10,12,20,21,22149:23,24,24,25,25150:5 151:13 153:3,4153:7,16,25 154:8,8154:14,14,16,22155:7,8,21,25 156:3157:23 158:6,6,22159:3,6 160:18 161:9161:17,23,25 162:7162:11,12,17,18164:23 165:6,20,23166:5,9,16 167:2,4167:22,25 168:5,12168:23 169:14,16,20170:2,9,15 171:8,9171:18 172:9,18,20172:21,25 173:2,4,13174:1,14,17,20,24175:7,8,12,19,20,21175:22 176:2,4,5177:8,9,10 178:23179:4,4,7,8,16,16180:2 181:8,8,13,19

181:20,20 182:6,7,12182:18,22 183:14184:22 187:1,19,24187:25,25,25 188:2,2188:7,20 189:5,6,11190:5,16,24 191:7,12191:12,14,16,21192:1,2,11,16,24193:12,14,18,20194:1,12,18,20,25196:10,11,16,18,19197:7,13,15,20,21198:2,11,12,25 199:7199:8,15 200:5,12,15201:10,21,21,22202:1,25 203:1,3204:16 205:10,11,15205:18,25 206:14,17206:21,23,24 207:11207:17 208:10,14,17208:21 209:8,19210:14 211:5,15,25212:13 213:5 214:2214:12,17 215:4216:1,1,2,5,6 217:13217:17 218:14219:10,14,17,21220:5 221:9 222:13222:16,20 224:12,17224:20,25 225:1226:5,7,7,9,10

Andy7:19 8:1annoying37:17annual117:10 143:14another43:24 119:7 128:10

149:17 162:9 174:21174:22 223:5

answer16:10,20,24 17:3,7

19:16 21:5,10 22:1123:11,14 24:17,2226:5,9,14,17 30:24

34:11,15,24 36:6,1036:16 37:8 38:9,9,2039:4,9 45:1 46:2,1854:8,21,23 56:1657:24 58:16,18 60:1560:20,24 61:5 62:1664:23 65:17,22 66:1777:22 78:13,21,2481:18 84:2 86:494:22 95:13 102:23104:10 107:10 111:5121:1 128:3,5 140:13142:12,14 145:25146:2,3 150:14 160:1160:10 168:14,17,17168:19 181:4 182:7191:25 192:11196:20 197:14200:13 202:16 214:2214:18,22 215:1223:21 224:18

answered55:6 61:10 75:22,24

142:11 145:4 152:15160:3 168:23,25198:8 218:14

answering23:12 45:18 48:7

170:9answers17:6 115:23 226:7answer's21:5anticipation63:4any7:22 8:21,22 9:5 13:4

13:12 14:8,21,2415:8 23:5,13,18,2123:24 25:11,12 26:228:4 29:12,22 30:2431:3,25 36:12 37:1138:13 43:2 44:2445:3,5 47:10,25 48:148:11,12,18 53:9,953:17 54:6,16,22

55:9 56:25 57:8,1358:5,9 60:20 61:5,2465:7 69:11,19 70:8,973:7 74:19 75:11,1575:19 76:5,14,19,2077:6,10,13,17 80:282:2,9 88:23 91:3,1092:9 93:12 94:6 97:897:19,20 100:2,11101:2,4,13,21,25102:17 106:14 107:4111:25 122:11123:20 132:4,6133:23 134:1,4135:24 140:16 151:1153:20 156:17157:20 158:9 162:20162:23 166:1,6,9167:4,9,22 169:1,5,9171:17,19 173:25174:8 178:4 180:17183:3,18,18,23 184:6184:23 186:17 187:4187:16,17 188:18,19189:7 190:25 191:1193:11,25 196:4199:15,16,22 203:10203:13 205:18206:11 208:23209:10,17 211:2,11211:25 212:9 213:1217:19 219:5,5,10223:8

anybody117:3 170:1 180:5anymore28:25 106:17 133:20anyone20:14 27:16 48:17

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Jeff Sewell Deposition

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