TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC MEETING - United States ... MEETING ***** BEFORE: LARRY JOHNSON, Community...

SDMS DocID 2089752

COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

DEPARTMENT OF EVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

* * * * * * * * *

IN RE: EPA'S PROPOSED CHANGES (RYELAND ROAD ARSENIC

SUPERFUND SITE)

PUBLIC MEETING

* * * * * * * * *

BEFORE: LARRY JOHNSON, Community Involvement

Coordinator

Chris Corbett, Remedial Project Manager

Wednesday, February 13, 2008

7:38 p.m.

Bethany Children's Home

1863 Bethany Road

Womelsdorf, PA 19567

WITNESSES: None

HEARING:

LOCATION:

OR!G

Reporter: Ben Hunter Mengel

Any reproduction of this transcript

is prohibited without authorization

by the certifying agency

Sargent's Court Reporting Service, Inc.(814) 536-8908 AR500125

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I N D E X

OPENING STATEMENT

by Mr. Johnson

STATEMENT

by Mr. Corbett

PUBLIC COMMENT

CERTIFICATE

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P R O C E E D I N G S

M R . J O H N S O N :

I appreciate everybody taking their time.

I'm Larry Johnson. In case you don't know me, I'm the

Community Involvement Coordinator for Ryeland Road

Site, and I'm going to go ahead and introduce you to

Chris Corbett, who's the project manager for the

Ryeland Road Site, in a few moments. What I want to

do is just kind of lay out a couple ground rules for

what we're going to be doing tonight. I want you to

know that everything that is said in this room tonight

is being recorded for the public record. This young

man over here, Ben, is doing that recording for us.

He's a professional stenographer. And this document

will be available as part of the Administrative Record

at some point after it's finalized.

This comment period is for how many

days?

MR. CORBETT:

Thirty (30) days.

MR. JOHNSON:

Thirty (30) days. And the final day for

the comment period, those of you who read it in the

newspaper, is


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MR. CORBETT:

February 25th.

MR. JOHNSON:

is the 25th of this month. And those

comments need to be addressed to Chris. We do have

the address for e-mailing that or for mailing and that

is in the fact sheet that we sent out on the site. If

anyone doesn't have one, we have some extra copies

back here to save you all the trouble of writing all

this down.

Now, as we get ready to begin to the

presentation and this is . We don't have

PowerPoints and slides and all that. We're going to

keep this very small simply because there's really not

a whole lot of information and it's not a whole lot of

technical stuff that we have to describe. So Chris is

just going to talk through it. But I would like for

everybody just to go ahead and let Chris go ahead and

make his presentation, and then we'll go ahead and

entertain questions and answers. When we do get to

the question and answer period, in order to help the

stenographer with his transcription, if you could

speak your first and last name and then spell your

last name for him, so he doesn't have to come back to

you later and try to figure out how to spell your name


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right. You know, this is going in to Washington. You

want to make sure that your name's spelled right.

And also, I know from experience that

there are some people who are just simply not

comfortable speaking in public or, you know, just

basically sounding off in front of others. So what

Ben is going to do, he's going to be available as we

start to adjourn the meeting for anybody who'd like to

speak to him in a semi-private atmosphere so that you

don't have to stand up and, you know and feel

uncomfortable speaking in public. With that being

said, I'm going to go ahead and let Chris take over.

And thank you for your time, and we look forward to

working with you as well as we've worked with you so

far. It's been a great project and we think we're

moving along pretty well. And I hope everybody has

of course, if we're not doing the job right,

please tell us. You know, we're always open 24/7.

Well, he's not. I am.

MS. CORBETT:

Thank you everyone for coming, especially

with the way the weather's been this past week. The

purpose of the meeting tonight is to discuss four

changes to the original cleanup plan. After we go

through the four changes, I'll also give everyone a


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quick update as far as what we've been doing over the

last six months or so as far as the cleanup is

concerned, and what things look like in the next six

to nine months.

With that, I will just jump right into

the proposed changes. If anyone has any questions

throughout these, feel free to stop me. You know, we

can answer your questions and then continue to move

forward there. Or you can submit questions at the end

also .

The first change is replacing the water

line. As many of you know, there's a water line that

originates at the Bethany Children's Orphanage here.

There's a very large spring that runs down Ryeland

Road and provides water down to the vacant lot area.

All of the homes here receive their water from this

water line. As we were doing some of our digging last

year, we uncovered the existing water line and we

found it be a fragile and a very old system. There

are no existing maps, so we don't even know the exact

location of where it is. It's been in place for a

long time, and it's been maintained by the homeowners

that live along here. There's no water system or

water company. It's just maintained privately. It's

a very unique system.


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And our concern was when we broke the

water line, it took two days for us to get everything

fixed. And because there's no shutoff valves, we

basically had to cut the water off to the whole street

due to repairs. Now, we're planning on doing a lot of

soil excavation work in the front yards in the spring.

We also have excavation work to do on this property at

this location and this property at this location here.

I probably can't give the names of the residents just

because Larry, what's the law that ?

MR. JOHNSON:

Privacy Act.

MR. CORBETT:

Privacy Act. Thank you. But if anyone

would like to come up and look at the map, I'd be more

than happy to point out the homes. To make a long

story short, we think if we dig continue to dig

around this fragile water system, we'll probably

repeatedly break the water line and disrupt the water

to the residents on numerous occasions. Our other

concern is that after we backfill our soil and do the

little bit of compaction we have to do, the system's

so fragile we may create a leak in the system by

backfilling after we're done. And then a month or two

months later, we're gone and this water's leaking


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under the ground. And it might take a long time

before people realize that we messed up their water

system.

So to prevent all of these problems and\

potential problems, we're proposing to put a new water

line in. And we're thinking we don't have a

design for it yet. We're actually in the process of

doing that now. But we're actually thinking of

running part of it through the backyards of the homes

and then running our lateral connections to the homes

from the backyard, keeping the new water line away

from the contaminated soil, which we know that it

exists up along the road here. Now, we would have to

cross over the road at some point to connect in these

two homes. And we're also going to have distribution

points with cutoff valves at the three residences that

we knock down. So that if there's any future

residential development, the water the water line

will be there ready for the new homeowner if the

township decides to put homes at those locations.

That would be up to the township after the cleanup's

complete.

The water line would be installed before

we shut the other one off. The goal here is to

minimize any disruption to the neighborhood, and the


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plan would be to install the new water line, and then

at some point in time after notifying the residents,

we would then switch over. It would probably only

take an hour or two to divert the water from the one

pipe into the other. After the new water line's in

place, then we would clean up the soils along Ryeland

Road, dig out the old water line, if it's in

contaminated soil. If it's in clean areas, I guess

we'll have to check with the township. It might just

be left in place. Or if they require us to take it

out, we might have to take it out. But that's kind of

a minor point, and we'll cross that bridge when we get

there.

But this first change and it's not

part of the original decision, the original cleanup

plan, and that's why we're here tonight is to replace

the water line. If there were multiple disruptions

and we have to keep coming back in, we'd probably not

only annoy the residents greatly that live along there

and disrupt their water service, but it would probably

also cost us more in the long term than it would in

the short term to just go in and replace the water

line, rather than having to go back, go back, fix it,

go back, fix it. And at that point, probably everyone

would be screaming and we'd have to put a new water


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line in anyway .

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Yes , sir?

MR. YARNALL:

What size and what material is that line

going to be?

MR. CORBETT:

I

like, you can 1

do not know at this time. If you would

eave me your name and .

MR. YARNALL:

I '

there . In othe

places and they

the 1 ine itself

and some areas,

for the powers

them size that

problems down t

line is gravity

m just asking from my end of the deal

r words, I've worked on a few of those

have booster pumps right now because

had eventually closed up; some rust,

of course, had some leaks in it. And

that may be, if you could, please have

properly so that we do not encounter

he road because of lack of that

only. That is not pressure fed and it

is because of head pressure only from the springhouse

up here . So I

you can allevia

MR

I

MR

I '

just want to let you know so that maybe

te some problems when it does happen.

. CORBETT:

. YARNALL:

m sure you know that, but I'd like to


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put it on the record.

MR.

Tha

they were discus

CORBETT:

nk you. I'm trying to remember if

sing a two-inch or four-inch line.

I'm just not sure. I'd rather not say. If you'd like

some information

MR.

on that, though .

YARNALL:

A two-inch line is not going to be

enough,

MR.

Yea

MR.

CORBETT :

h, that ' s .

YARNALL:

not for ten homes. Not with today's

water volume required for each house.

MR. CORBETT :

Right .

MR.

It

MR.

Is

UNI

YARNALL:

was back then, but it's not today.

CORBETT :

the existing line a two-inch line?

DENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Some of it's one .

MR. CORBETT :

Yeah. We will talk about that. We're

going to size it properly. In fact, we're talking to


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local plumbing folks that will be bidding on the job.

That's all going to be subbed out, so . But the

design .

MR. YARNALL:

Just so it's part of the record.

MR. CORBETT:

And John, I assume from a supply

standpoint, this spring could handle

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER;

I'm sure it could handle .

MR. CORBETT:

a little additional volume?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

The spring could handle that.

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah, I know. But I just want to make

that clear. Okay. Thank you very much. Any other

questions regarding the water line?

The next issue is what we call leaving

naturally occurring arsenic at depth. What we found

in several areas, mostly in this area here and a

little bit in the front I think there was one spot

here. We're finding some areas where we're

sampling now before we dig, and we're seeing a little

bit of contamination at the surface. It's very hard


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1 to not find a little bit of contamination at the

2 surface in this whole general area. But then we're

3 seeing soil eight feet, ten feet, sometimes even 12

4 feet. And then when we're down at like 14 or 15 feet,

5 we're finding a trace amount of arsenic, between one

6 and ten parts per million, over our cleanup level of

7 12 parts per million. Naturally occurring arsenic in

8 the area we've seen at depth usually below 10 parts

9 per million. We've also seen it up on the surface

10 back behind the site a half mile up South Mountain,

11 and also at other levels in the park, we're seeing it

12 around 20 parts per million. So sometimes you do have

13 naturally occurring arsenic, it seems, at levels

14 slightly above this cutoff of 12 parts per million.

15 What we're proposing to do is not dig up

16 eight feet of clean soil to go after a couple of parts

17 per million of arsenic. The cost savings for this

18 change alone would be about $75,000. It would also

19 create a pretty good disruption on this person's

20 property here because, well, number one, the house is

21 still there and on the surface we have just low levels

22 of arsenic. It's very easy for us to clean up the

23 upper two feet. But for us to dig down 10 or 12 feet

24 to try to find an isolated location because we had a

25 single hit of 15 parts per million arsenic, it just


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didn't seem to make sense.

The trend we found since the last 15

months of digging in this area here as well as in the

vacant lot is you'll see elevated arsenic near the

surface. You'll also see layers of it at some point

either four feet below or six feet below the ground.

But you'll see a general trend, as you go down through

the clay, you'll see the level decrease. It might be

in the 1,000s at one point, in the upper six feet or

so. But by the time you get down to eight or ten

feet, you see the levels drop down to 500, 300, 50, 30

and then we hit 12 or 10 and then we're done digging.

We've never seen places over here where, you now, it

was clean for eight feet and then all of a sudden we

have arsenic at depth. So we're really thinking it's

probably not site related. It's just because we're

sampling the heck out of the soil.

The way we do our samples, we'll dig down

through the soil for 15 feet and we'll sample every

foot or every two feet. And if we're clean for 10

feet or 12 feet and we see a little bit of arsenic,

you know, at a depth of 14 feet, it just doesn't seem

to make sense that it's from the site. And since this

is taxpayer money, from a risk standpoint, it really

doesn't hurt anyone leaving it in at depth. Yes, sir?


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MR.

How

15

YARNALL:

much of that soil was replaced a

second time around, which was however many years ago?

MR. JOHNSON :

None .

MR.

All

two feet .

MR.

Coul

MS.

CORBETT:

the previous digs were just the upper

YARNALL:

d that have affected that?

CORBETT :

Probably not, because it seems to be

totally undisturbed soil. I mean, it's like eight

feet of clay. And we also know where those digs were.

Those digs were over on these properties here. This

property here, I

in the past . Was

don't think had been excavated at all

there some excavation in the past?

Okay. The homeowners can verify it. Yeah. I mean,

what we're seeing we are seeing shallow

throughout this whole property here, we're seeing a

foot, two foot of

MR.

And

MR.

Les s

contamination in the upper soil.

YARNALL:

what do you call clean soil?

JOHNSON :

than 12.


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MR. CORBETT:

Less than 12. Yeah. See the state's

required for under what's called Pennsylvania Act

II for residential areas is to clean the arsenic down

to 12 parts per million, down to a depth of 15 feet or

bedrock if it's shallower than 15 feet, or if you hit

the water table. If you hit the water table, you can

stop. Now, most of our excavations have been down to

well, 12 to 15 feet. And that's even after we

stripped about a foot or two of soil off the surface.

So we're actually down in the problem area. I mean,

this is the area where the factory was. This is where

we're finding very high levels of arsenic. You know,

over here what we're finding on the surface, 30, 20.

I mean, they're low levels.

MR. YARNALL:

Residual pushing from .

MR. CORBETT:

Yes, yes. Residual. Exactly. So that's

the second change. Okay. The third change and the

fourth change are both related to the Farr Nursery

property. That's the property on the other side of

the tracks. The reason we've been concerned about the

Farr Nursery property is the arsenic that was located

where the factory was and where the disposal area was


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has been leaching into the ground water. The arsenic

is leaving the soil. It's migrating into the ground

water. And it's coming out at a spring that feeds the

tributary that starts just on the other side of the

culvert. There's a culvert that goes underneath the

railroad tracks. And there's one spring here.

There's another large spring that feeds a pond here.

And there's a general area where there's a pretty good

spring here at the surface. And then we know there's

also some smaller springs that are feeding into the

pond as well. Basically this whole area here, your

groundwater is coming up to the surface and is coming

out in the springs in this area.

Now, our original plan was to dig the

sediments out of the pond and then fill the pond in

and allow the springs to migrate into the field there

and eventually if there's enough flow going back

into the tributary. The change we're proposing

tonight is to leave the sediments in the spring feed

pound. We started to design the cleanup back there.

And what we're going to do is we're going to pump the

water out of the pond. And the concern was that we're

going to be pumping and pumping and pumping. It might

be hard to dewater that pond completely. There's a

good chance between the springs that are flowing


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1 we can divert the springs from the surface. But the

2 flow that's coming in from underneath, it's going to

3 be pretty tough to stop that.

4 So we talked about what a mess we're

5 going to making back there, digging the sediments out

6 and have to dry them. And then we started asking

7 ourselves, well, do we really need to dig the

8 sediments out of the pond. There is elevated arsenic.

9 It goes up to about 100 parts per million. But the

10 pond is deep. It's a man made pond, and it's about

11 nine feet deep from what we can tell. In fact, even

12 on the edge of the pond, you can see it drops off to

13 three, four feet or so within the first foot or two.

14 So we looked at the state's cleanup

15 standards for soil on this property. We have a

16 different cleanup standard on the Farr Nursery. Just

17 so I can backtrack a little bit, this is not

18 considered a residential area and it can never be a

19 residential area because it is part of the

20 Pennsylvania

21 MR. JOHNSON:

22 Conservancy Act 42.

23 MR. CORBETT:

24 Conservancy Act 42. Thank you. You

25 know it a heck of a lot better than I do, that's for


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sure. Anyway, unless I'm corrected, the property can

never be used for residential. It can be used for

agricultural purposes.

MR. JOHNSON:

That ' s correct .

MR. CORBETT:

It can be used as a ---

MR. JOHNSON:

A n u r s e r y .

M R . C O R B E T T :

n u r s e r y , a n a t u r e type use , I guess

would be the best way to describe it.

MR. YARNALL:

Or whoever's in the office at the moment.

MR. ZERBE:

It's a preserve .

MR. CORBETT:

It's a preserve .

MR. YARNALL:

Is it forever ?

MR. MENNING:

Oh, yeah. It's not reversible.

MR. HIMMELBERGER:

You always hear people say you can buy

the building rights back; it's never been done.

S a r g e n t ' s C o u r t R e p o r t i n g S e r v i c e , I n c .( 8 1 4 ) 5 3 6 - 8 9 0 8 AR500143

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MR. MENNING:

Not with .

MR. HIMMELBERGER:

You can do that in Clean and Green. This

was done under Farmland Preservation. It's not

revers ible.

MR. CORBETT:

At EPA, we understood that it was

nonreversible also. That was one of the reasons

actually, had it not been, we would have put what's

called institutional controls, you know, if we were

going to not clean up the area.

But to make a long story short, we're

kind of asking ourselves what are we gaining by

digging the sediments out of the pond as opposed to

just burying it under with nine feet of clean soil.

And the answer we came up with is, well, we're saving

a lot of work and really from an environmental

standpoint not creating any, you know, additional

harm. The levels down there are not so high that we

have to worry about the arsenic leaching into the

ground water. It's already been in contact with the

ground water for years.

So what our plan is, is to simply just

fill to pump the pond down as much as possible,


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get it down, you know, six feet or so and start

filling it in. And filling it in was always part of

the cleanup plan. Our plan was always to close the

pond. So the one change here is not to excavate the

sediments out and just fill the pond in it its current

state.

The last change is to expand the wetland

area by eliminating poplar trees. The original

cleanup plan had poplar trees in it because

because we knew we were creating . By closing in

the pond that's being feed by springs, we know this is

going to be a very soft muddy type area. It will be

an area that will be conducive for wetland plants

which we're planning on putting in there all you

know, the whole time. We thought we would add poplar

trees if we had to control the water. Poplar trees we

use sometimes in our cleanups because they suck up a

lot of water. They draw a lot of water out of the

ground and basically they help dry things up. Well,

we realized it would kind of defeat the purpose if we

put poplar trees if we're trying to create a more

wetland type area. So why put poplar trees in there

that are going to defeat the purpose?

So that's how we came up with expanding

the wetland by eliminating the poplar trees, which in


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my opinion I probably never should have put in there

in the first place. But it was in our original

report. We had discussions back and forth with the

contractor at the time, and it was left in. And it

probably wasn't a good idea. Poplar trees are good

good in other locations. Sometimes they use them

even on top of landfills to try to eliminate water

that migrates into landfill areas.

Here, we're very happy with this being a

natural muddy type environment. We're going to put

wetland plants and try to get the wetland species to

grow. And probably naturally occurring wetland

species will start flourishing in there regardless of

what we plant .

That's it for the changes. I did want to

take some time to give everyone an update. Those of

you that live near the site probably heard the noise

of the sheet piling. That went in over the last two

weeks. That has been completed. After we excavate

along the railroad tracks in the back here, we will

pull the sheet piling up. So there'll probably be a

little more noise when we pull that piling up. We'll

then do some excavation behind the sheet piling on the

embankment itself. But we won't be able to take off a

whole lot of soil. We'll probably only be able to go


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down about two, three feet there.

We realize as a result we're going to be

leaving a little bit of arsenic in place along the

railroad tracks. That was part of the original

cleanup plan. To make sure that homeowners aren't

impacted by that, we'll be calling for to have

institutional controls to have restrictions on the

property back there so that if someone was to build a

house here, if for some reason they wanted their house

to extend all the way to the railroad embankment, I

doubt anyone would actually want to be living that

close to the railroad, but they wouldn't be allowed.

There'd be like a 25 foot buffer or so in there.

MR. YARNALL:

That would come under the railroad's

right-of-way also. They would want that, I'm

assuming.

MR. CORBETT:

The right-of-way, from what we

understand, actually goes to around the fence line up

at the top of the tracks. Yeah, that's their only

right-of-way. We're in there digging right now.

We're not on railroad property where we're digging.

So that's what they told us anyway.

MR. YARNALL:


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That's strange because that's not what I

have written at my property which is further up the

road. That's kind of strange.

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah, I don't know. We have a map from

the railroad that what'd they say, 20 . Maybe

it was just because we're digging. They said not to

dig within 25 feet of what, the center line and

the closest track or something. I have to double

check that. But anyway, the bottom line is .

MR. YARNALL:

I would imagine that has more to do with

the trains running through there, that's probably why

they said that.

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah, probably. The bottom line is we're

going to be leaving a little bit of arsenic in place

here. So what we're going to do is add some of the

chemicals that they're treating the soil that we're

excavating the soil that we excavate, some of it

gets treated out a facility near York, Pennsylvania.

And they mix lime and ferrous sulfate into the arsenic

contaminated soil, and that helps bind the arsenic so

it doesn't leach out. We've talked to their supplier,

and what we're going to do to at the bottom of the


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hole when we're digging back here, over the railroad

bank, we might only be able to go down eight feet or

six feet, depending on how deep the sheet piling is.

Because we can dig to half the depth of the sheet

piling.

So when we get to the bottom of the hole,

if there's still some arsenic, we're going to spread

some lime and some ferrous sulfate in the bottom of

the hole to help neutralize some of the arsenic that's

remaining in the soil there. We realize it's not

going to treat all the way down through. But even if

there's a foot or two of mixing in there, if we could

stabilize that soil, it will be that much less that

leaches out in the future. And that small area back

along here will be the only arsenic really left in

place. We're hoping the groundwater will then clean

up within the next two or three years. We'll be

monitoring the groundwater back in this area as it

flows into the springs.

And we did have a successful pilot test

with our ferns. We planted ferns in the wooded

wetland area where the stream is here. We have five

plots of 100 ferns each. And the ferns absorbed a

pretty good amount of arsenic. We're actually

analyzing them now in the lab. We did some


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preliminary testing of the ferns in the trailer with

the testing equipment that we have, and it looks like

the ferns absorbed quite a bit of arsenic. So any

residual arsenic that's kind of flushing through the

system, as we complete the excavation work here and

clean up the sediments in this part here over the next

six months, we're hoping to see the groundwater start

cleaning up. And the ferns will be used in through

here for a couple of years to just absorb any

additional arsenic that's getting into that stream

system.

MR. MENNING:

How often will you harvest those ferns?

MR. CORBETT:

Annually.

MR. MENNING:

Annually?

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah. We will do that in September

before the first frost. We did test the native ferns.

We've bought ferns from Florida and we've bought ferns

from Virginia. And it looks like the Virginia ones,

though they were more expensive, worked a heck of a

lot better. The native ferns we tested, they really

didn't absorb any arsenic at all, unfortunately. We


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were hoping that the native ones would do the job just

as well, but they didn't work. So .

MS. ZERBE:

ferns ?

How many years will you do that with the

MR. CORBETT:

I'm guessing five. It might be less. If

the system flushes through quickly like in a year or

two, then there'd be no reason to plant any additional

ferns. We were going to put about 5,000 ferns in this

year. We did 500 last year. And we're going to be

cleaning up the sediments in this stream between now

and probably the summer sometime. I'm not exactly

sure when. After we clean the sediments out of the

stream if there's if we're still in the growing

season, we will try to get some ferns in. The reason

I say we're not exactly sure when we're going to do

this, the priority in the spring is to get the houses

completed. We have to do the front yards here. This

house we actually have to do the backyard. This home

here we have to do the front and the bac.kyard. And

this home here we have to do the entire yard. We

really want to work on the residential areas in the

spring when we can get sod or seed, depending on the

homeowner's preference, to grow real well. We don't


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want to be doing that in July and August.

So if we have time before the spring, we

might be able to get the sediments cleaned out of

here, if we have time. If we don't, let's say we're

still digging the sheet piling and in February we get

hit with bad weather, we're down to two, three weeks

because of ice and snow, maybe we don't finish near

the railroad tracks until March, then we probably will

just go right in to the residential areas to start

them, you know, early April or so. You know, that'd

be our best time to probably do the residential work.

So the timing of this is a little up in

the air. By the summer, though, this should be

completed. And then the last phase of the project is

to move into the park in town behind the VFW and

excavate the sediments from that property that

property there. By this time next year, I'm hopeful

we'll be done except for ferns and sampling

groundwater back in that area. Yes?

MS. ZERBE:

My name's Zerbe, Z-E-R-B-E. Are you

going to take the sediment out of the stream all

from the pond all the way down to the park, or

just ?

MR. CORBETT:


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No, ma'am. Only about 1200 feet. It

goes from the culvert pipe here where that first

spring is and down before the two streams combine,

you know how the other spring comes in the stream

from the Bethany spring?

MS. ZERBE:

Uh-huh (yes) .

MR. CQRBETT:

It's before that point. And the way

we'll do that is we'll have what's called a hydrovac

truck, basically like a big vacuum cleaner that .

MR. ZERBE:

How are you going to get it in there?

MR. CORBETT:

With 12-inch or so hose. We've already

started cutting some paths. It's very dense

vegetation. So we're going to run the truck parallel

to the tree line. And it has about a 150-foot hose.

MR. ZERBE:

Okay.

MR. CORBETT:

So we've already been starting to cut

some access points in through there. It's tough going

back in those woods. And the whole goal is to try to

get the fine grained sediments out. The coarse


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grained material we know doesn't absorb a whole lot of

contamination. So the goal is whatever fine grained

sediments are in there it will probably only take

us a week or two to go around and basically just

(makes noise), you know I don't how he's going to

write that. Basically just kind of suck up the fine

grained sediments. And not impact you know, and

not impact the stream itself. I mean, it will be

some, but we'll try to minimize that.

MR. JOHNSON:

I wonder how the stenographer interprets

a slurping sound.

MR. CORBETT:

Slurping sound, yeah. Jason?

MR. CHESTNUT:

Is this vacuum truck an option to clean

sediments out of the nursery pond, instead of capping

those?

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah, it probably would be.

MR. CHESTNUT:

My only question with capping that

you said the springs that are bottom fed that

water's got to go somewhere. Isn't it going to carry

those fine sediments? Now, where's it going to go?


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MR. CORBETT:

Well, that's a very good point there,

Jason. As we fill this in, there's going to be a big

mud hole, a soft gooey mud hole, for lack of a better

term, and that's exactly what we're trying to create.

We're trying to create a place where it's soft and

where you'll get species, like newts and salamanders

and, you know, a real messy wetland area so to speak.

The springs are going to flow out. We're going to

before filling it in, the first thing we're going to

do is get a six inch pump in and pump the heck out of

it, and flow it right onto the ground here and see

what kind of stream channel does that create. Rather

than take a bulldozer and create our own channel

that's, you know, straight and lined with riprap,

we're just going to basically flood out the field and

see what type of channel it creates. If it creates a

straight channel that's cutting deep into the soil,

then we'll probably try to throw in some meanders to

slow it down a bit. But we're hoping it actually

comes out and starts to fan out. If it came out and

started grading itself and spreading out a little bit,

that would be the best scenario. But we're really not

going to know until we until we pump it out.

But again, if we want to take the


32

1 sediments out, we would probably either use a hydrovac

2 truck or they're talking about what they call a clam

3 shell bucket. I guess they get in there and kind of

4 drain a lot of the water and stuff out. I mean, the

5 big problem with it is we'd probably be creating more

6 of a mess trying to do it than just kind of pumping it

7 down. I mean, hopefully we get it pumped down to

8 maybe three or four feet. Then we'd fill it in quick.

9 You know, we'll be running trucks and trying to fill

10 it in within like within two or three days.

11 MS. YARNALL:

12 Is that water contaminated? I mean, if

13 you're pumping it out across there, are you filtering

14 it as you're pumping it out?

15 MR. CORBETT:

16 No. The filtering would just be natural

17 filtering into the soil.

18 MS. YARNALL:

19 And then you're going to clean that soil?

20 MR. CORBETT:

21 Well, the water well, what the goal

22 is is that after the source of the arsenic is out,

23 this water should be cleaning up pretty quickly. And

24 to the extent that there is some residual arsenic in

25 there, that's another area where we would try planting


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ferns. Let's say we do have a little bit of

contamination, you know, going into that field there.

Well, that would be another place that we would look

at, at possibly putting the ferns in.

MR. JOHNSON:

That pond constantly runs. So it's

constantly flushing and recharging itself. So once we

eliminate the contamination, .

MS. YARNALL:

So it's not that bad. That's what I

meant. Like, if you're pumping it all out at one time

across that land, would that be contaminated? That's

what I'm trying to ask.

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah, there would be a small amount of

arsenic. There certainly would. There would be a

small amount of arsenic going into the soil there.

The difference is the water that's in the pond

when you sample water, the cleanup standard for water

is at 15 parts per billion.

MR. JOHNSON:

Something like that.

MR. CQRBETT:

I t ' s in the par t to b i l l ion r a n g e ,

w h e r e a s the soil c leanup is 12 par t per m i l l i o n .


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Actually, on this property here it's 54 parts per

million because it's nonresidential. So what we'd be

pumping is in the part per billion range. So

theoretically, yeah, if you did it long enough, you

could have a couple parts per million building up

there. But it shouldn't be at a level where, you

know, it would be a significant problem. And if we

did see that the levels were climbing, the only

problem would be if we tried to put ferns right away,

the first year before we have other vegetation, we'd

have to put in a bunch of shade cloth. Because we did

try growing them in the open sun back there and they

they did not do well at all. We put up some shade

cloth and while it lasted it disappeared after a

couple weeks or so. I don't know if the wind blew it

away or someone found it and said, oh, there's some

free shade cloth. I don't know.

But if we put shade cloth back there, we

can get them to grow. Yeah, that's a very good point

there. But the contamination would be pretty low

levels .

MR. HIMMELBERGER:

So you don't think that water that

water source would ever clean up if you'd clean out

the pond and let the water fill back in and retain a


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w a t e r source?


The problem would be the stuff at the

bottom of the pond sediments are up to about 100 parts

per million. And if we left them at the bottom, you

might not even get that pond to clean up into the

well, 15 parts per billion is the drinking water

cleanup.

MR. HIMMELBERGER:

But if you leave that in and fill it in

and put ferns in it, you're going to draw probably out

of the first six inches of soil.

MR. CORBETT:

Right. But 100 parts per million of

arsenic buried at depth is not going to contaminate

the groundwater. Having 100 parts per million at

depth below 12 feet of soil in a place where you can't

dig and put in a home . In comparison, the state's

cleanup standard is 180,000. So when you get below

two feet at the Farr Nursery, if you had arsenic at

levels up to 180,000, which is actually 18 percent

arsenic, it would be allowed by the law. Now, the

reason you probably wouldn't see that is you also have

to consider what's called a soil to groundwater

release. If you had arsenic at 170,000 parts per


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million, 17 percent arsenic, it would be leaching into

the groundwater. And so the state would make you

clean it up because of the leach.

Does this make sense? I didn't want to

get into this and confuse everybody. But at 100 parts

per million you don't have to worry about arsenic

leaching into the into the groundwater. We start

worrying about that up at the site usually when you

get we feel like in the low 1,000s. When you get into

1,000 parts per million, 2,000 parts per million, you

know, then rainwater's going to leach arsenic out and

probably impact the soil.

MR. JOHNSON:

And the other thing to remember is that,

you know, we're really looking at drinking water

standards, all right, for this stuff. And which is

why in an industrial area where nobody's going to

be drinking the drinking water, it's not going to

really be in violation of the regulations.

MR. HIMMELBERGER:

But I'm talking cattle.

MR. CORBETT:

Right. Yeah. But best guess is that

within two to three years and maybe even sooner, I

think that water is going to clean up fast back there.


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As far as the cattle moving in, when the source is

gone, I don't . I was having some private

conversations before the meeting started. Two weeks

ago, we dug up what we think is pure arsenic at the

site. There wasn't a lot of it, but it seemed like it

was about a couple bucketfuls that we hit. It seemed

like it was pure arsenic, and it also appeared to be

in an area that was like a sump where there was a

bunch of rocks and gravel below it. And it looked

like this was probably as good a source as any for

what's been contaminating that water back there.

Also, throughout this area where the

three homes used to be, especially in the back in

between these two homes, on a daily basis we were

digging up material that was 5, 10, 12 percent

arsenic, levels that are, you know, 50,000 up to

100,000, 120,000 parts per million. At those levels,

that's the stuff that was leaching out and getting

into the groundwater, you know. In fact, we even

found that that was one of the few areas where

when you got down to the water table, there was so

much contamination right in that area, it was still

contaminated and heavily contaminated. So we went

down and tried to dig out we actually went down

below the water table in some areas and tried to get


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out as much material as possible.

The other point I should make clear,

which I don't think we've discussed a whole lot in

previous meetings, this is not the final remedy for

the site because we didn't include a groundwater

cleanup. The goal here is that by the time we're

done, the groundwater's going to be cleaned up. And

when we evaluate groundwater, we won't have to do a

whole lot to clean it up. We're hoping this is going

to take care of the groundwater problem. If you

notice, we don't have a groundwater remedy. You know,

typically EPA will do things like pumping and

treating, pumping the water out and they'll treat it.

Or sometimes you'll inject stuff into the aquifer to

treat the water. Here we have not addressed

groundwater.

And the reason we haven't is because

we're thinking this is going to take care of the

problem. Let's do this first and then we're going to

put monitoring wells along the back here. We already

have wells on the property here at the nursery. And

we're going to monitor the groundwater, well, as soon

as we're done with the soil. We'll get the wells in

within a couple of months and we'll start monitoring

the groundwater and then decide, is there anything


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else we need to do. Because really that's all it

needs to be, clean water back here. And what's going

to drive that, believe it or not, is contaminated

groundwater. We sample the water five feet below the

surface. That's considered groundwater. And that's

where we get hit with the stringent standard of 15

parts per billion. So that's why we're digging up the

whole source over here. That's why even though we

only have to dig to 15 feet, you know, if there's some

more contamination at 16 or 17, we're actually digging

that out also. And that's why we're going to inject

the lime and the ferrous sulfate not even inject

it really. It comes in a bag, and you just rip open

the bags and spread it along the bottom of the hole.

That's why we're going to place that

material in the bottom of the hole on this area, to do

everything we can to clean up the groundwater so that

two years from now we can go back. We can plant ferns

if there's a little bit left there, monitor the

groundwater and be done because groundwater remedies

are very expensive. And I really don't think it would

be the best use of taxpayers' money to jump in there

and start pumping groundwater because we've done it on

other sites. You clean up the source and all of a

sudden the groundwater cleans up on its own within a


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year or two. Meanwhile you're out there building a $2

million plant. It doesn't make sense.

MR. ZERBE:

That pond, if you look at it and you

actually walk into the woods there, the pond is

actually higher than what the woods are.

MR. CORBETT:

Yes .

MR. ZERBE:

Would it be possible to take where the

overflow is there's an overflow pipe there, just

to remove that and make a channel there to let the

water drain out of the pond rather than just try to

pump it out because you're going to pump a long time

to get that water out of there?

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah. Well, we'd actually be pumping and

then also break the berm in the front. By breaking

that berm in the front, it will you know, it would

flow out also. Our contractor, that was his

suggestion. He said, why don't you just open this up

here. That would be the easiest thing to do. We

could do that in about an hour. Open this up, just

let it drain right into the stream here. Well, it was

our biologists that were involved early on that said


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hey, you know, we should be trying to create some

wetland area back here. Here's a perfect place where

if we let this drain down to this area here, you know,

we'll do what's called mitigation. It's typically

what, you know, EPA or the state would require if a

homeowner or a business wanted to go in and, you know,

remove a pond or .

MR. ZERBE:

What happens if that fills up faster than

you can pump it out of there? Then what do you do?

MR. CORBETT:

What we're hoping to do is it will just

flow right into this field here, you know. It should

my guess is well, there's two schools of

thought. Our biologist thinks it's actually going to

make its way all the way into the stream channel and

it's going to, you know, migrate on the surface maybe

about 100, 200 yards. Our contractor, he thinks it's

just going to get wet and go into the ground and

disappear. And if it does that, that's fine, too.

Because what it's going to do is it's going to migrate

below the subsurface and still make its way. The

water's going to want to get into the stream channel,

you know, regardless if the pond was there or if

there's just springs. It all wants to flow into


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into th i s a rea a n y w a y .

M R . Y A R N A L L :

Is there an estimated GTH for that pond?

MR. CORBETT:

Yes. If you measure it at the outflow

over here, it seems to be about 20, 25 gallons per

minute. It's a pretty good flow. And it's greater

than the spring over here. That's why we know there

must be some other subsurface flow feeding into that.

MR. YARNALL:

So that would be ?

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah. I mean, it's actually an

opportunity we really don't get too many

opportunities to try to create some wetland area. I

mean, it's we did another mitigation over in this

area up here as well. One of the areas we had to dig

up was called a vernal pool. It's these cold water

springs that are in the woods where you get newts and

salamanders and stuff, and you know. And our

biologist, they say, you know, these are very rare

areas these days. So we had to do some digging back

over here, and they asked us to mitigate back here

also and create another vernal pool. Now, we barely

disrupted the other vernal pool, you know.


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And I guess, you know, we could argue and

say, no, we don't need it. I work for the EPA. How

does that look if I'm arguing with my biologist and

all he's asking me to do is try to create another

vernal pool? So one day towards the end of the

excavation work over here, we had the backhoe just go

through and in the course of an hour just kind of dig

a hole and pile the dirt up around it. And our

biologist said, don't make it look neat and pretty,

don't put grass in there. Instead, take a bunch of

sticks, take a bunch of rocks, take all the stuff

that's laying around the area there and throw it in

the middle. Wouldn't you know within two weeks I went

back up there, we had frogs in there. We had turtles

going in. It was great. My supervisor was out, and I

said, while we're out there, I'll show you the vernal

pool we created two weeks ago. And there's a turtle

sitting on the bank, you know, jumping into it.

Now, at the time, it looked like a mud

hole. But you go back there now, a tree fell across

it during the storm that happened back there. If

anyone's walking their dog or anything, take a look at

it. It's actually it looks like it's been there

20 years, and it's only been a year. And, you know,

we created a little bit of habitat and without


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without much effort at all. I mean I think the most

effort was me dragging sticks and throwing the stuff

in there. But I had a couple free hours and nothing

to do, I kind of kept myself busy, but .

And that's what we're trying to do over

here also. I mean, if you notice, we're not talking

about any high technology stuff. We're actually low

technology. Fill the thing in, see where the springs

go. You know, if the springs flow in a crazy

direction or we don't like the way they're going, then

we'll get involved and we'll try to redirect it.

Because in reality when you try to create a stream

channel, it's only there until the first big storm

event. And then Mother Nature decides where it

usually wants to go. And if doesn't get you the first

storm, it will get you the next hurricane.

So the idea is, let's see how Mother

Nature directs the water flow and basically just fill

it in with clean material. Yes, there will be a

little bit of arsenic buried at the bottom, but I

really don't think it's going to hurt anybody.

MS. ZERBE:

How many years will you monitor that

area? Will you come out and do testing like once a

year or something or ?


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MR. CORBETT:

Yes. We would test it at least once a

year, probably start off more than that. Probably

start off at two or three times a year. It would be

part of our groundwater plan. I'll say this is just

the interim. I still have to address groundwater.

And even let's say best case scenario, the water

cleans up within six months. We go back here. We

fill the pond in. We get the springs flowing. I

still have to do an investigation of the groundwater.

I'll still have to write a Record of Decision. And

the Record of Decision is just a cleanup plan. And in

that, that would put on limits in our monitoring.

We'd have to monitor, you know, quarterly for five

years, semiannual up to ten years. You know, whatever

the monitoring requirement would be, it would be in

that plan. And before it's finalized, we would have

to have a meeting. We would make it public. We'd

have people have the opportunity to comment on it.

MR. JOHNSON:

And even after all the work was done and

the site was removed from the National Priorities List

or removed from the Superfund List, we still have an

obligation since we left some contamination in place

with the institutional controls under the railroad to


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do a Five Year Review, every five years until the end

of time.

MR. CORBETT:

Of course, what we'd really like to do is

to get all this stuff up. I mean, if it weren't for

the railroad tracks, folks, all of that material would

get dug up. Otherwise, like Larry said, we have to do

a Five Year Review every five years. But I really

think the groundwater is going to clean up pretty

quick. I think in about two years or so. You know, I

might be wrong, but I think in about two years the

groundwater's going to be pretty clean. Yes, sir?

MR. WERGER:

My question is, if the groundwater

doesn't clean up, if it doesn't work the way you have

planned and you still have contaminated groundwater,

what happens then?

MR. CORBETT:

Then we'll have to come up with a cleanup

plan. One thing would be to pump the water out and

treat it, which would be very expensive. Other

options would be a permeable reactive wall where we

might take material like iron sulfate and make like a

trench that goes down about ten feet or so, so that

the water flows through it. And as the water flows


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through, the arsenic would be bound up in that

reactive wall. So you have iron arsenate accumulating

in the wall, but because it's a stable compound it

kind of just sits there. Or another option would be

to inject. A lot of the new information on

groundwater cleanups, we're now injecting different

things .

One of our last jobs up in Brown's

Battery in Shoemakersville, we injected baking soda

into the water table to neutralize the water, to

it had acid in there with the lead. And when the pH

was neutralized, the lead came out of the water and

then back into the and back into the soil. So you

can inject things also. Other sites, we're injecting

molasses to get rid of organic chemicals. There's a

lot of work on injecting low technology. You know,

again, low-tech natural type stuff seems to be working

pretty good on some projects. So that was one of the

things we looked at.

MR. MERGER:

So it could be an ongoing process?

MR. CORBETT:

It could. In all likelihood, we'll be

monitoring. If we see the levels are decreasing,

let's say it cleans up but it doesn't clean up all the


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way. But it cleans up a lot. Well, then we can show

that we're moving in the right direction and we can

monitor for five years or so and see the goals all the

way to cleanup. We need to show some progress, and I

think this remedy is going to show us a lot of

progress. So you think about it, we're getting all

this arsenic out of the ground. So if I had to bet if

it wasn't if it doesn't meet the clean standards,

we'll probably try to just monitor it or maybe do a

little injection. We'll try not to build a $2 million

pump and treat system, you know. And to me that would

be just crazy. Yeah?

MR. SHERMAN:

I just wanted to say I hope you had fun

at Bob Brown's place. I was his accountant.

MR. CORBETT:

Really?

MR. SHERMAN:

Yeah.

MR. CORBETT:

I'll have to talk to you after the

meeting about that.

MR. SHERMAN;

O k a y . Y o u k n o w , j u s t o n e t h i n g tha t wi l l

be i n t e r e s t i n g to these people is he bu i l t a m a c h i n e


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to break batteries. He would get batteries from Price

Battery and Fran Braun. Those are battery places in

Temple or someplace. Anyway, he'd haul truck loads

and trailer loads of batteries up there, and he'd

build a platform up about oh, eight feet off the

ground. And he put a big hydraulic breaker in there,

a big blade. And they would lay about a dozen

batteries along there, and they'd .

MR. CORBETT:

I heard it was like a guillotine. That's

what we read.

MR. SHERMAN:

Cut the tops off of the batteries, and

then they'd dump the lead and .

MR. CORBETT:

And the acid right on the ground.

MR. SHERMAN:

Right on the ground.

MR. CORBETT:

Yeah.

MR. SHERMAN:

And then he'd scoop it up with a front

end loader and sell it right back to the battery

people.

MR. CORBETT:


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One of the things we found, that was one

of the sites where we dug up the source and all of a

sudden the groundwater cleaned up real quickly.

MR. SHERMAN:

that point.

Oh, yeah. I imagine that would have at

MR. CORBETT:

I mean, it seems to make sense, you know.

MR. SHERMAN:

Yeah. He was married twice, you know, at

the same t ime.

poisoning


Yeah. We heard he died of lead

MR. SHERMAN:

He was married to two women both named

Barbara. Yeah. And when he shot himself and he died,

the two women had a hell of a time trying to figure

out who owned what.

MR. CORBETT:

I heard he was shot down in Florida.

MR. SHERMAN:

He shot himself.

MR. CORBETT:

Oh.


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MR. SHERMAN:

I think it was Rehoboth Beach. He put

the pistol up in here and committed suicide.

MR. CORBETT:

Small world. In a second, Jason.

MR. YARNALL:

Randy Yarnall. I'm sorry. I should have

done that earlier. Y-A-R-N-A-L-L. Chris, have you

received e-mail from Don McNott (phonetic)?

MR. CORBETT:

No, I have not .

MR. YARNALL:

There are four questions that he had

asked. Three of them, of course, are pertaining to

him and his property. I'm assuming you had not. I

will tell him to resend that to you.

MR. CORBETT:

Well, if he sent it in the last 72 hours,

I haven't been reading my .

MR. YARNALL:

S a t u r d a y , the 9 th o f F e b r u a r y , 2 0 0 8 .


Oh, y e a h . I .

M R . Y A R N A L L :

So you w o u l d n ' t have ?


52

1 MR. CORBETT:

2 Last I was in the office was Friday

3 reading e-mails. So that's why I haven't seen it yet.

4 MR. YARNALL:

5 I'll let the first three questions alone.

6 They pertain mostly to his property. The fourth one

7 pertains to I kind of have gotten involved with

8 the sewer authority also. Larry and I had talked

9 about this earlier. I'd just like to bring this up

10 anyway on account of it being an official meeting.

11 It's question number four, and this pertains to me

12 also in some respects in a lot of respects. I

13 have made I may have missed a meeting or

14 correspondence between EPA and Heidelberg Township

15 supervisors and/or Heidelberg Township Authority. So

16 if this question has been fully answered and

17 assurances given, please direct me to the appropriate

18 agency and/or document. I am still questioning a

19 clean corridor to exist for a future public sewer line

20 to be installed along Ryeland Road. I do not see

21 anything in the proposed changes that addresses this

22 question of a clean corridor. If in five years the

23 authority, that is the sewer authority, does propose

24 to install a public sewer along Ryeland Road and

25 approval and/or construction is halted due to


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environmental issues, who will be the responsible

party of record? Will EPA be held responsible at that

time to provide a clean corridor? I am fully aware

that the project has morphed into a much larger

remediation effort than originally anticipated. As a

resident of Ryeland Road, we have been knowingly

impacted negatively for nearly 20 years. I would

expect that once this remediation action is complete,

the area will be a better place environmentally. For

that, we thank you and we truly do thank EPA for your

efforts. And we are anxious for the completion of

this project.

MR. CORBETT:

Yes, there will be a clean corridor.

Yes, if there's arsenic found in the future let's

say they're going to put a sewer line in and there's

some arsenic missed because we didn't sample that area

exactly, then yes, EPA would come back and provide a

clean corridor at that time. So the short answer to

both is yes.

What we did was we sampled along Ryeland

Road. In response directly to this issue, we took a

number of samples along the road. We punched holes in

through the asphalt and sampled all along from

well, the entire length between the vacant lot and


54

1 there. We did find one area where there was elevated

2 lead in the upper two feet. And that area is going to

3 be cleaned up as part of the residential cleanup.

4 We're actually going to uncover part of the road and

5 dig the soil out from under the road and then repave

6 the road. The other areas did not show elevated

7 arsenic above the cleanup standard. So, you know, we

8 felt confident they could put their sewer line in.

9 We sampled, I guess, about every 100

10 feet. So there is a potential that maybe, you know,

11 50 feet from one of our locations there might have

12 been a little patch of arsenic. We think we'll see

13 that while we when we clean the sides of the roads

14 along here, we're thinking if there is anything that

15 extends underneath the road, we'll see it when we're

16 excavating out the old water line on both sides or

17 doing the soil cleanups. Where we're cleaning up

18 soils for the homeowners here is right next to the

19 road. So we'll get we'll be able to sample if

20 we dig down two feet, we'll be right next to the road,

21 and we will monitor the sample of that sidewall. So

22 if we see any other places along here where the

23 arsenic goes under the road, then we'll uncover the

24 road there as well.

25 But yes, the goal here is to make sure


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that you can put a sewer line in or cable or, you

know, whatever. The only place we know that we're

leaving arsenic is back near the tracks. Everywhere

else if it's under the road, we'll uncover the

road.

MR. JOHNSON:

And as far as the documentation, we did

issue to Heidelberg Township a buffer letter.

MR. CORBETT:

We issued a letter and we also attended a

meeting to present the results to them.

MR. JOHNSON:

And they have a copy of that letter that

we provided to them, making sure that the road and

that the corridor does exist.

MR. CORBETT:

Yes. And we'll have that documentation.

We just completed I haven't seen it yet, but

there's a draft of a completion report for cleaning up

the vacant lot. There will also be a completion

report documenting the cleanup for this whole area

including the houses on both sides and the road. We

will have photos. We will have our sample results.

We will have weekly summaries. We have a weekly

summary that the contractor writes up to document


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56

what's done every day out there. So all that material

will be available and on record so that if in the

future they are doing work and there's any question,

we can go right to that report and see the data that

we have there. Yes, sir?

MR. SHERMAN:

Cliff Sherman, S-H-E-R-M-A-N. How far

did you go with the road test with the checking?

MR. CORBETT:

We came up past the homes over here. And

we came down past the vacant lot over here to make

sure we didn't .

MR. SHERMAN:

You don't think there'd be anything

further up than that?

MR. CORBETT:

You know, that was my biggest concern

during that sampling. I was expecting to find arsenic

up and down that whole road from all the years of

traffic, you know, when it was an old dirt road and

stuff. And no, we didn't surprisingly didn't

we didn't find it. I was shocked. I thought we'd

find stuff like in the upper foot or so, you know.

And I thought we were going to have to repave that

whole road and maybe go all the way up the street.


57

1 But we didn't we didn't find it.

2 MS. YARNALL:

3 Was there another path that they took?

4 MR. JOHNSON:

5 Yeah, they took it up South Mountain.

6 That road it was down where one of the houses

7 from one of the houses which used to be owned by one

8 of the by the plant's owner or plant manager.

9 There's a road that goes up there. And that's how a

10 lot of the contamination got in that one property

11 where that whole yard is contaminated. That road up

12 there had some contamination going up about 120 feet

13 past that.

14 MR. CORBETT:

15 Yeah, I guess that could be from .

16 MR. JOHNSON:

17 Yeah. About there, yeah.

18 MR. CORBETT:

19 Yeah, right along here. So we have to do

20 that whole yard.

21 MS. YARNALL:

22 So that whole yard is going to be done?

23 MR. JOHNSON:

24 Yes.

25 MR. YARNALL:


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You mean to tell me last year I drove

down that road it had arsenic?

MR. JOHNSON:

Oh, you're the poacher?

MR. CORBETT:

The levels just so you're aware, the

levels that we are finding back on those properties

are much, much lower. I mean, it's about 12 parts per

million and it's on the surface. I think it's 15

parts per million if it's on the surface. We're

digging up a foot of soil. And we're doing that all

over the place, you know. And that's why it actually

goes up to the front yards of some people. We have to

put in bushes and have to put down sod and water the

heck out of it, John. We're going to have to do a

water line with plenty of pressure because we have a

lot of watering we're going to have to do this spring

and summer to make sure everything grows.

But yeah, if it's at the surface you

know, I should have made that clear before about

leaving naturally occurring arsenic at depth. That's

the only stuff that we're finding. We have to have at

least eight feet of clean soil to make that claim. If

we have six feet of clean soil, the arsenic, it gets

dug up. If we have, you know, the upper two feet and


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59

it's 13 parts per million, it gets dug up. It's only

like 8 or 10 feet, then this is crazy. What else?

Here I thought this was going to be like 15 minutes,

nobody's even going to show up because of the bad

weather. You guys have been a great audience.

But listen, Larry and I will be hanging

around if anyone else has any questions, you want to

look at any of the maps in detail or discuss things,

you know, not on the public records. We'll be more

than happy to hang around and answer all your

questions. Our phone numbers are on there, if you

have any questions even after the comment period ends.

You see trucks speeding down the road. You think

they're our trucks. You know, you see any of our

contractors doing things that they shouldn't be doing,

call us. I'll be more than happy to address it.

MR. YARNALL:

We addressed those situations a couple

months ago. A couple of the truckers

MS. YARNALL:

Big trucks.

MR. YARNALL:

were a little quick and they were

speeding down the road.

MR. CORBETT:


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60

Oh, yeah. We've spoke to them on a

number of occasions as well.

MR. YARNALL:

They have been fantastic. And I want to

thank whomever, thank them all, thank you. They have

been fantastic.

MR. CORBETT:

Good.

MR. YARNALL:

But going 50, 60 miles an hour down that

road is not good. And I'm afraid I'm sorry, but

some of them were. But they are fantastic now.

MR. MENNING:

We've even had trouble with the residents

driving that fast.

MR. CORBETT:

Oh, people fly down there. It's a shame.

MR. YARNALL:

No question. But a trucker especially,

because they can't stop.

MR. CORBETT:

Oh, I know. I've passed them even

just passing them on these roads even a couple miles

from here. You know, it's a nuisance, but we're

coming close to a close, folks. We've already taken


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61

out 65,000 tons there. And although we'll be doing a

lot of disturbance in the next phase, digging up the

front yards, volume wise, truck wise, it's going to be

a lot, lot less.

MR. YARNALL:

I got to say, you know, as a resident on

the road, you're doing a great job. You're how

would you say it? You're quiet. You're very

professional about your business. It doesn't disturb

us at all except for a little bit of extra traffic.

And that is fantastic. Thank you.

MR. JOHNSON:

That's great .

MR. CORBETT:

Thank you. Yes.

MR. JOHNSON:

We really appreciate that.

MS. YARNALL:

I noticed the railroad bridge the

road that goes over the hill where there's the

railroad bridge is breaking down more. Is that going

to be repaired with all the trucks going across it?

MR. CORBETT:

I 'm g lad you b r o u g h t tha t t o ou r

a t t e n t i o n . I w a s n ' t a w a r e of i t .


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MS .

It ' s

62

YARNALL:

breaking down.

ATORNEY SHERMAN:

Yeah , it is .

MR.

I wi

MR.

CORBETT:

11 I will take a look at that.

YARNALL:

I would keep an eye on that bridge

because that bridge has been a problem, and Cliff can

attest to it also

years? Although

says the railroad

It's been a problem for how many

it is state maintained, the state

owns it. The railroad says the

state owns it. And that bridge is in dire need of

replacement, espe

bigger trucks. I

bridge .

MR.

I th

bridge .

MR.

It ' s

MS .

It i

cially now that you're running these

would please go take a look at that

SHERMAN :

ink of that every time I go over that

YARNALL:

dangerous .

YARNALL:

s getting they're getting more

potholes on the bridge.

MR. CORBETT :


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63

I'll take a look at that and .

MR. YARNALL:

I apologize. I forgot about that. But

that and Cliff, you can attest to that. You've

been on the supervisors many times. That is a

dangerous bridge now with those superloaded trucks

going over that thing.

MR. JOHNSON:

that .

Yeah, it certainly wasn't designed for

MR. YARNALL:

I would really take a close look at the

underside of that thing.

MR. CORBETT:

Thank you for calling that to our

attention. I'll mention that to our contractor.

MR. YARNALL:

Because it is deteriorating really fast.

And we're in our winter again, we're going to be

in our winter and spring thing. That's going to help

it even more.

MR. CORBETT:

Right. Now, our position all along has

been if we're responsible for damaging any of the

roads here, you know, we consider it our


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responsibility to

think the trucks

MR.

No.

MR.

And

route .

MR.

No,

64

repair them, so . And I don't

can fit underneath.

YARNALL:

CORBETT :

that ' s why they have to go that

YARNALL:

the tallest one wouldn't fit under,

but you're not running over that. You're running

under it .

MR. JOHNSON :

We're not even running under it.

MS .

You

MR.

YARNALL:

can't fit under there.

CHESTNUT:

I saw a box truck go under it this

morning. I believe it was food service to come up

here .

MS .

Some

MR.

If t

MR.

Clos

YARNALL:

of them that know they can fit.

JOHNSON :

hey go through the middle.

YARNALL:

ely monitor that.


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65

MR. CORBETT:

Thank you.

MR. CHESTNUT:

I know you've uncovered the slab floor of

the old factory. Has that been taken out and cleaned

underneath it, or is that ?

MR. CORBETT:

Yes, yes. We found actually a lot of

concrete, a lot of debris, some little drainage

like little drainage channels and stuff with a lot of

the highest arsenic hits in some of those areas. And

yes, all the foundation material, it all comes out.

It gets decontaminated if necessary. It gets sprayed

down, and then we break it up and haul it out.

In fact, this house was built right on

the foundation of the old factory. When we got down

there, they actually laid block right on top of the

old foundation. Yeah. And it's a good thing we

selected the remedy that we did, because the levels

that we were finding even right next to the people's

foundations, you know . I mean, not that they'd be

exposed to it on a daily basis, but if they would put

an addition on their home or, you know, add a deck on

or a porch, they could come into some contact with

some pretty high levels of arsenic.


66

1 MR. SHERMAN:

2 I was going to bring a picture of that

' 3 factorlflong ago. If there's anybody here who would

4 like to have a picture of it, give me your name and

5 address and I'll send you one.

6 MR. JOHNSON:

7 If it's different from ours, I'd love to

8 have it. You know, because we got a couple of them,

9 but we'd like to add to the archives at any time.

10 MR. SHERMAN:

11 I had dropped one off some time ago.

12 MR. YARNALL:

13 There are a bunch of pictures back there

14 .

15 MR. SHERMAN:

16 No, this was .

17 MR. JOHNSON:

18 It was artist's renderings.

19 MR. CORBETT:

20 Yeah. We had an artist's rendering from

21 I think it was the 75th anniversary book in the

22 library. Or was it the 175th anniversary? You guys

23 celebrated a big anniversary and they made a book.

24 MR. SHERMAN:

25 O k a y . W e l l , m ine comes out of the 2 0 0 t h


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year of the Tulpehocken Region, 1723 into 1923, and

they had a full page ad in the back with a picture of

the factory.

MR. CORBETT:

That might I think that might have

been it. That was it. The 200th anniversary, right.

MR. JOHNSON:

Okay. Then we got that one.

MR. SHERMAN:

Okay .

MR. JOHNSON:

And that's included in the site record

I'll include all the pictures that we're able to

accumulate as part of the site record.

MR. CORBETT:

Anything else? Well, thank you all, once

again, especially for coming out in such nasty

weather. Have a safe evening. And please call us if

there's any issues at any time. If it's anything

really bad, call me or Larry.

MR. JOHNSON:

Everybody, if you don't already have it,

I keep this cell phone with me 24 hours a day, seven

days a week. And it's always on. If you want to call

me, it's 215-266-0374. If there's a truck idling or


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if there's somebody speeding or, you know, you're just

not happy today and you want somebody to talk to, you

know, just go ahead and give me a call, 215-266-0374.

And immediately after I receive this call, I will call

Chris and complain.

MR. CORBETT:

And my number's on the fax sheet also. I

do have a number of extra ones.


I just wanted to say, too, thank you from

the fire company. We had a lot of good practice on

those houses

MR. CORBETT:

Oh, good.


that we tore down.

MR. CORBETT:

I'm glad that worked out.


And it really worked out well. We had a

lot of good .

MR. JOHNSON:

In case anybody didn't know what we did,

was we allowed the local fire departments to go in and

play firemen at some of the houses and actually be


69

1 destructive and cut holes and basically pretend to

2 rescue people from an actual house as opposed to, you

3 know, just simulating it. And in talking to the fire

4 chiefs, they were all very pleased. And it was a good

5 use of the property, since they were going to be

6 destroyed anyway, for them to go in there and get some

7 real time practice so that they can be better firemen.

8 And they also seemed to enjoy it, something about

9 hitting things with an axe. You know, they really

10 liked it a lot. One of them they cut holes in the

11 roof. We're done.

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]_3

1 4 M E E T I N G C O N C L U D E D A T 8 : 4 9 P . M

1 5 * * * * * * * *

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C E R T I F I C A T E

I hereby certify, as the

stenographic reporter, that the foregoing

proceedings were taken s tenographically by

me, and thereafter reduced to typewriting

by me or under my direction; and that this

transcript is a true and accurate record

to the best of my ability.

Court Reporter

•PITTSBURGH, PA

•CLEARFIELD, PA

• STATE COLLEGE, PA

•HOLLIDAYSBURG, PA

•ERIE, PA

•OIL CITY, PA

•HARRISBURG, PA

SARGENT'SCOURT REPORTING

SERVICE, INC.210 Main Sired

Johnstown, PA 15901(814) 536-8908

•INDIANA, PA

•GREENSBURG, PA

• PHILADELPHIA, PA

•SOMERSET, PA

•WILKES-BARRE, PA

•CHARLESTON, WV

AR500194

LAWYER'S NOTES

Page- Line

PITTSBURGH, PA

HARRISBURG, PA

GREENSBURG, PA

ERIE, PA

INDIANA, PA

HOLLIDAYSBURG, PA

STATE COLLEGE, PA

SARGENT'SCOURT REPORTINGSERVICE, INC.

210 MAIN STREETJOHNSTOWN, PA 15901

(814) 536-8908

PHILADELPHIA, PA

WILKES-BARRE, PA

OIL CITY, PA

SOMERSET, PA

CLEARFIELD, PA

•CHARLESTON, WV*

AR500195

TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC MEETING - United States ... MEETING ***** BEFORE: LARRY JOHNSON, Community...

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Transcript of TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC MEETING - United States ... MEETING ***** BEFORE: LARRY JOHNSON, Community...