Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 5 AUGUST 1913

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

778 Paper. [ASSEMBLY.]

LEGISLATIVE ASSEIVIBLY.

TUESDAY, 5 Auac~r, 1913'.

Tho SPE.\KEH (Hon. \Y. IJ. \rmstrong, Lod:yu) took the choir at half-past 3 o'clock,

PAPER.

Tb,,., followin?: paper, laid on the table. WM ordered t-o be print0d :-

Report of the Government Resident at Thursday Island for tho year 1912.

[ llon. A. H. Barlow.

QUESTIONS.

ADMINISTRATION OF AGRICULTURAL BANK AcT.

Mr. B. H. CORSI~R (Burnett) asked tho Secretary for Agriculture and Stock-

" 1. Has suffici<>nt money always been available to the trustees of tho Agri­cultural Bank to enable them to ~tdmin­ister the Agricultural Bank Act, as amended by Parliament in 1911, in reference to the £1 for £1 amendment up to £200?

'' 2. \Vill he supply retnrns showing­(a) The number of applications for ad­vances under the amended Act dealt with during tho first three (3) months of it~ administration; (b) the number refused or reduced; (e) the nnmber of applications under the amended Act dealt with by the tru,tees ttfter the first three months of its administration; (d) the number refused or reduced?

"3. Are the trustees of the Agricul­tural Bank administering the Act ~n accordance with the conditions of 1911 amendment thereof?"

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURI<i ~\.ND STOCK (Hon. J. White, 11tusgra11e) replied-

" 1. Yes. "2. (a) 401; (b) 109 reduced, 29 de­

clined; (e) 2, 777; (d) 913 reduc<'d, 486 declined.

"3. Yes."

COLOXIAL SuG.\R REFINING UOC!PANY AND \YORKERS' COMPEXSATION AcT.

Mr. THEODORE (Chillagoe) asked the Chief Secretary, for the Attorney,General-

" 1. Has approval been given for the recognition of the Colonial Sugar Refin­ing Company's Employe:e~' Benefit Society in lieu of the prov"sron• of the \Vorkcrs' Compensation Act?

" 2. Is it compulsory for employees to join the society?

" 3. Are employees compelled to pro­duce a oortifi"ate of good health from a medical man before being admitted to membership in the society?

" 4. Do the rules prevent emp_lo_yees from joining this society and partwrpat­ing- in th" bPnefits until after three months' sorvire in tho employ of the company?

" 5. Arc those employocil who are not members of tho e'ooicty entitled to the benefits of the \Vorker,<' Compensation c\.ct in the <cwnt of injury whilst in the employ of th<' company?"

The PRE~,IIER (Ilon. D. F. Denham, OxlPy) replied-

" 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. The necro·;ary inquivies are being made in the matter."

Mr. THEODORE : I would like to ask thr> Chief Secretary, without notice-

" Will he place the informati.on asked for before this House when it is avail­able?"

The PREMIER replied­" Certainly."

Jury Btll. [5 AUGUST.] Jury Bill. 779

MARSUPIAL PROOF FENCING ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Han. J. Tolmie 'l'oo­'ooornba), this Bill was read a third ti~e, tmd ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council by message in the usual form.

JL'RY BILL.

INITL\TION.

The> HOME SECRETARY (Han. J. G. Appel, Al1Je1· ,.), in mo;·ing-

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve it•,elf into a Committee of the Whole to consider of th" desirable­ness of introducing a Bill to conoolidate and .amend the law relating to juries,"

said: I take it that the deputy leader of the Opposition called " Nat formal " t0 this ~notion ior the purpose of eliciting some 1nforxnation conct,rning this propos0d 1nea-suro.

Mr. THEODORE: Hear, hear ;

_Th'~. HOME SECRET.\RY: . \.!though this Btl! IS on all-fours with that which has already been introduced, and which was passed th:ough the Legislative Council, rPad a first tlme !wre,. and i;s second-reading stage reached m th1s Chamber, I am always on.ly too r(:ady an~ willing to sati·,fy the thirst for mformatwn that may arise in th_e minds of han. members in connection With any measure which r am about to intro~uDe-(heur, hear, and laughter)-more esp~~1ally when I know that that thir,,t is leg1tu;na~e ":nd masonab!e, as I am of opinion that It ,IS m this partrcular cas~. (Hear, he~~!) !'ho propoted. '?'lea ''ure 1s really a roct1ficahon of fi,·e e:nstmg J m·y Acts which at t':le present time regulate tl;e law ,o far as jutles arc CDncernod. -. ~r. Conm: D<ws it pro,-id<' for eoroncrs' JUr!t''S?

The HOME f'ECRETARY: H does not provide for a coroner's .iury. It also pro­J~os.es t.:> repPa] J?ortion of '>ection 74 of the }<,vidence and Dncoyerv .\~t of· 1867 like­wise two section., of th~ District C:omts Aci­D! 1891,. wl_1ich e.:ction deals with the que-;~ twn of JUrH•q. ;t IS proposed that tho Bill sho~ld be 0ivided into eight parts. The maJor portiOn of Part I. will consist of interpretation and definition clauses. It will also provide for tl-(c r"peal of certain enact­Inents, and it contain3 tho provi;::ions in con­nection with the gc•neral dut ie" of shNiffs.

iY~r. MunrHY: Docs it gin' juries the right to tmpooe f-t>ntenccs?

Tho HOME SEC'RET~ IRY: I do not in­tend. to satisfy thn thirst of that hon. member for n,f<Jrmation on tlw.t noint at this par­ti?nlar st~.:ge. Part II. -propose, to deal wrth tht' qualifications of jurors and with the exc!:nptions "hich may be allowed tho so who will not be rc•quired to serve upon juri<''. There is an altMation in th·, law in this particul:tr part so far as coriCerns tl!e qual_ifications of jurors. All pprsons wt!l be hable to scn-u betwePn the ago of twPn~y:flvo yc~rs and sixty-five year'", save aborHJmal natives of the St~.te, natives of Chi'na, or Sonth Sea Isl:mder,q. Theso clau~<;s w_ill pra~ticall.v abolish the property quahncatwn whwh at the present time is

necessary to enable a juror to be qualified to act in that capacity. Part III. will deal with matters 'in connection with iury dis­trich. Part IV. will deal with jury lists and provid;, the necc:- '''-'Y machinery in con­nection therewith. Part V. deals with the fees to be paid to jurors and tho number of jurors in criminal cast·H, and will deal with special jurors in the above cRsc, and special jurors 'in civil caseP. It will also deal with the right of trial by jury in special cases. It also contains tho methous by which trial by jury might be exp0ditnd, which is not possible under pr~"''3Ctd conditiont~.

Mr. 'l'HEODORb: Is that the majority verdict?

The HOiv1E SECRET ArtY: No; I have not come to that :, ct. It ,]so makes pro­Yision for c;nnpensation paid to jurors. Part V. also deals ·w·ith jury prec-;,ph and panels, and ;,vill also rna ko the nece.ssary provision as to surnrnoning and excusing jurors by the sheriff and other administrati\ e details in connection ther<:cwith. Part VI. will deal with the forming of juriu; and the method of choosing and ch1Ucnging, such a,; the '· stanr1 bv" bv the c;,own and the "chal­lengf•" by th~ prhoner, over the wholu array. It alPo d0alS with peremptory chal­lent;e'. So far as the chall.-ngr' of the whole array is conc<>rned, the provisions contained in the Criminal Code will not bB interfer-ed with. In connection with peremp­tory challenge·:, tho number which tlio ar ~used will h .. ve "'"" th~ro ddhc'd. In CCJ,pital ca ,8s they aw limited to eighteen, and in other crimes and misdemeanours they arc limited to twelve. Of course there ma:v h<', ontside of tl1.1t. clnllen:res for reasons to which there is no limit. Part VII. also con­tains provieions in connection with the dis­charge of juries by the court; also that either party ma~· pray a tales. Now, I sup­po'e that is so much Dutch to hon. members. although it is really Latin-(laughter)-and I muy as well ~·xplain ·what a tales is. It is described in the Latin words "tales tic circum . .l!tanibu8."

:Mr. Mt:RPHY: \Vhat :· (Langhte1·.)

The HOME SECRETARY: ~ow, I bee· that thr·,e hedge lawvers and the·•f' non-1-.:•dge ]ay,-yers arc &m.iling audibly, and I u,sk them ilot to do so. I propose to give an explalJation ao to what this means. If a ;,ufficient nu1nber o£ jurors do not appear, by reason of challenge,·• or oxe::1ptions, to enable a jnry to be imp,nnelled, eithr>r party m:ty pray a tu !cs, and then the sheriff may -;ummon any person who is on the panel or· any person y, ho is P]igible to act. The Bill proposH b define t.hat. and extend the right to both 1 :>~tics. The nmc part a! o pro­vides for majority verdiclc; of three-fou1·ths of ilie jnry, but ·Zi,at must not be leoq than nin.e in n;1mber. That applies, first of all, to civil cas~"9, and, in connection with crimi­nal ca·ce-:, to misdemeanonrs, and other· c>rimes, but, so £al' as capital criiTI.f'') are con" cerned, thBre n1u-t be a unanimous verdict of the jury. Part VII. likewiMC; conocrns other matters in connection with the dis· charge of juries in civil cases, with the Yiew of the particular locality-t1w locus in qno-makes provision fer the refreshment which is to be provided, and also that aliens shall not CJe Pntitled to a m 'xed jury, bnt only to a jury snch 11.s may be sworn to try any Briti,~I subject. Part VIII. will con­tain gf:ll''rtJJ provisions, having Tefer:•ncn-

Hon. J, G, Appel.]

Cr{minal Code [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bzll.

'to non-attendance of jurors personation o~e!'ces by the sheriff, and oth~r offences and mistoasa~c~s by the clerks and police, ancl also oomai_ns tlw necessary power to make rules and .regulation~. . As far as lies in my p01<\CT, Without 1na~nng :a s0cond-readin0' llP<;ech, I. have given practically all th%. ~I:>ts WhiCh are the mo,f; important in the ;Bill whiCh I am now asking for leave to mtroduce.

Mr. THEODOHE: l think the thanks of hon. me1nL~::rs ure d,~:,e to the han. gentle­In~n .for his. CJJrte-,v in haYing given u:3 this HJJor~nation. It .:-;,pp\ ars tl1at the Bill is ftanwd very much on·· the lines of the Bill which w~c. subiJ•it~ed ll'st sc·"ion. "\.r..d I rather r"gret t!_at tho Governn1t.:nt havr, seen fit tJ reintroduce a. Bill containin<,­the pew principle of m:;jority verdids. I adm1t ~he nec~:,-:;ity for 1n~king some amend­ments m our JUry laws, and, so far as those are concerned, tho Bill will be Wi'lcomed, but I hopo that the han. member will con­siuer some amendmenb of the provisions regarding majority verdict0. ·

Que•:ion put ;md pu•, sed.

·CRIMINAL CODE Li\H~::\'DMEKT BILL.

INITL\TION.

,,, Th: ,.~T~C:lP.T ',<;,Y, F(\R, ~~BLIC IN-S .... R'CC:L10~, (dun. "· \,. 111.nr, lpswtcli), 11:1 HlOVIllg-

'.' Tnat L<tY( 1~" given to introduce a Bi:: t-) u·r:_":nti , :k Cri1ninal Code Ly e>t."bli.~hi!lg a court of c~iminal appeal ~tnd ~na~1ng b.ctter provision for a1.-peals ~n ~rn .. unal CJ.BI:.~s, and for oth~ r purposcN lllCH{ont{t] b the afon"aid objects,"

;:;aid: l s-atlv.::r tlnt •• N"Jt icfln~J" ,~as c<.tll0d to this motion in or<ler to a J~rtain :, 1me of th~ contents of· the proposed Bill. I do not th1nk that, so Iur us criminal l.J\V is cDn­-c-ernt'J., a IIlOrD hnpor~aut Bill ha;; been iu­trod':'c 'd than this for LHmy ye.trs prrot. I thmk hon. member~ v. ill ,,c'come it be-­cause it giYes to a prison»r right:; which her~­tofo2:e have nev-•r been secu:._:::d to that in­<li,·idual. 'I'll·' Bill is "r<l< tic:dk fr.:med o 1

th>_ Engli h 111C>LSUre of 1!:1{)7 a;ld t:'le New So:lth Wales Act of 1912. Thoro are somo <liff,crcrc"s which go to >hv.v th.;,t th·c pro· p{>;{ d ill<'lF :n·-c is a l c L ---~· one in eyer ~'t.'..,~Jec~·. It is b1ought in at this particula;· JUncturr, not as r "e_;larate .:n.qusure

1 l i_lt as an

un1endmcnt o? tLo Cri1ninal Cc-,:e. Th3 rcrt­so~l .for tha' is thiJ : Practically ull our errmrn:~~- L-n .. is LJntainccl ir1 t11e Code 'vhich "\Vn;J .dr·:,·n u J l··-- s:r P.l::11U'·l Griffith and 1.vas pa">-2d .intr:)_ L:-,:v 1·{ th,- th<:-n .Atto ... -_:tf'y­

G€~1cral, Sn· ~lrthur R_lJec.~~cJ ,vith f:e> a~'-IS!~_ncr of 1~ of ju<..~scs. ..A.U p_rovr-1ons -ctJ:.dl1~ ~. •pca.'·J on tt~,-. Crown Sid·' are conL ined in tlE.t Code. The pre­"·:-·n~ riphts ~hat ~ n:i,·o!,_-•r 1L~3 to ap~ ... c:1l are 1.u~utea ,?o?t:Irc~~. One 1~, of an ?l-.-.--Jl~-.0 typ~·. c.aJcd '' r1t 01. ·r'rr.,:n·, and r, c ~.l.do1n If (n:er,. rBsort'·'1 to. I c:tn r£/_olb(i: no ~ase With!n

1the last .d:'cade or hm in which that

P·l',.rtrcu.ia.r provifllOn hr:s been 1nn.do use of. The second, which is praoticallv the mo·.-t usc:d, is th~t in \·.Thich po\Yer is [;iven to re­serve :t pomt of la-,c·, but th;,t is restrict"d to. such an ext··nt th.;;t in manv case;. a prFoner cannot ha.ve the right to appeal, so th.at a rc:mcdy Is brought in to -provide pre.caoally an excvptional ren1eJv \Yherc, in a . cas~ of an exceptional char.acter there nught be done a grievous wrc'1g. If the

[Hon. J. G'-. Appel,

prisoner is represented by counsel, counsel may at the trial reserYe a point of law in his favour, but he must do that before the jury gives its verdict. The prisoner, if he is m•·are of the point, may reserve it himself, but he must do it before the verdict is given. If the vurdict of tho jury is once given, .all right of the prisohn· to appeal on the point of law is gone. If counsel has forgotten to reserve the point, or the point has not OC>ourrod to him, or if he has ruerved a wmng point, thoro is no remedy for the pri C'ntr, althoi..tg'h a mi:-icarriage of justice 1nr:y take plnt:e. .t\.not..:113r rnethod is when th:.; j udgt. at his ov>"n '-li;;cn,tion, r·es€rves a point r< law, either after he pronounces jud,.;·merit or k fore; bctt that is solely in the discretion :af Le jt:dge, .and is not a matter o1 right for the pric,,,m,,r ::Lt all. The only other remedy in the Code is for the prisoner or his counsel to move in arrest of judg­ment, Lut that is only on very extraordinary grounds indeed. It is seldom or never used. ·what this Bill pNposcs to do is this: It propose.e to give a right of appeal to the prisoner convicted of any offence, on any grounds which involve a qu<>,tion <>f la.w alone. It gives to the prisoner that right ttbsolutely. Secondly, \Vith le.ave cf the court, where the trial ta' es place or upon certifi­cate of the judge of the court of trial that it is a fit 'ase for appe1.l againct his con­victimi, the pri<oner can cni.>or an appeal ·which i_.volves :t Lwt alone, or a question of n1ix.ed facts and ]a,v, or any other ground. whid1 appea:, to the ccmrt to bB 'Ufficicnt. Thirdh·. with the leave of the court, he' mav appe:.f a;::ainst th~ ssnten<''' passed on him on eonviotion. Once this Bill beco·ne; law it will be the right of every prisoner to appeal ag.:tinst anv coaviction rna de against hin1 on any point of law. It will aho ho his right-­which he I.eVH had before and has not no\v in Quevn~land-to e,ppPal fro1n any deci­sio-n on any grou·q~ of fact, or law, or mixe<l f:\ct end Ia"'· Let us assn''' thilt the jury hlF:: made a 1ni,t-"ke, sm-ne unfor>:.1natc mis­t:d,;:e, ·which it is not possibh.\ to corr-ect now: but undOI' this Bill, wh. ::t it hccomes law, it will be possible t-o corrcd it, by appeal to <a higher r•m:, Th2.t court r:•.n go into the qw~,.,t;on of the fact and cleciJe ,;c·he:her or not an c q·or hn \ tL,.:ri n1ade. So, if the pri onrr t"~jnks ·.,b.-: ~f'nLnf·' is too d~astic, a • ig)1t of app _tl will be given to him ag!limt it. 'Ihc CO<c·t of c·npeal is to be con.,tituted

·lJ:; prac1 io~lly the ·QuoonsLmrl Full Court--1:>r o j cd[;os~who will d0cic;~ the matter. T•1 t,_,J pr<"" ·_--lt E:1s;lish Act there is an ap,+eal 6thc to be High Court or to t'1e Privy C)nr ;il, but only b:, leave of thi· High Court or Priv-y C( -_1n~iJ, ard not a:; a rr~-·tter of ri~·l1f. \-.-,~hC'n +~li·. Bill bec-Jn-. ~ law thu,t wit

a nJ.~\U. ~· of right to the pris;olV<', and he _, ,y-ill have the SE·_rno right 0f appeaL

aln.o: , as a li~igo,nt , •. -ould have on ihe civil sid<· d th·• <'ourt. I pe. '·.onally wc>lcome this nw·,,ure. I think thnt it is an apt and fit corollary to the Jury rill. and ·'ho•.e who h-ave h_~d ir·-·rs nnd have e.",::pre'"~0 l thorn in tl:is Hottse in l'<'gard tr' t]'.,, majority wer­dld'. J·o a gr. <t extent "'I' ill h r.-c +heir doubts o:~.· < 1 >·--~.~ultil·.-, -·,H·;ye--1. This "•lf':1surn will ~ivc u\.,olut-.:: ri,--;-ht' < t a;~pL<al \vh.:reYer- ther>i3 h~s heE'n an" all0ged faihue or rwy ;,ossible sc;g;ge·" od fECilure in C<'llnec' ion ":tb t.he trial.

Mr. THEOD0R2 : Will it interfere with the prorogative o£ the Crown in co.nmuting death sentences?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION : No, it does not interfere

01·iminal Code Amendment Bill. [5 AUGUST.} Prickly·pear, etc., Bill. 781

with the right of tho Executive Council to cun-iJer rrco:,mPndoJions made by the judge at the trial, or made by the court of .appeal. That will remain exac;ly ae it is now.

Mr. BERrRIM: Docs the New South '.Vales Act provide for majority verdicts?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: I am not certain that the Ne.w South Wal<'s Jury Act does. That would be in the Jury Act. It certainly does in connection with civil cases, but I ,]o not know that it has gone to the extent of criminal CJ~es. It is propos ;d to give lege.! assistance to the appellant, and that is to be practically under the Pc·Jr Prif.oners' Defence Att, or rather an extension of that Act in sections in this Bill. The appellant is· to have a right to be present in person during the hearin!l" of the .appeal in order that pos3iLly v hen the evidenc0 is discu SP•i, if any point strikes him, he i. •entitled if the court allows him or he dp·jrq it, to give evidence at thut stage, although he has not given evidence at the c1urt from ._,·hich the matter has g0ne for appeal, or the point has not been raised before the court of trial.

Mr. KIRWA~: Can they call a fresh witness?

Th··, SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: The judges will have power to call fr:-,~h 1-vitnesf,es, pO\\ or to inv,y,~tigate thoroughly, p•.>wer to c~ll experts if neces­sary to go into a question of han.lwriting or anything of the kind, in order that abso­lute justice m"y be done. This Bill goes further than the English or the New South Wales Act in this respect: that it prov:dcs "" right of new trial. For example, if on nppeal the judges constituting that court think that bcclmicelly the c mviction shoul-d be quaPhcd but that suLtantially the accused Bhould be convicted, they would have tho right to order a new trial. The idea. is not to allow the guilty to escape, but to see that no mis:.:arriago o£ jastice takes place. Po1ver is given to nppc.a] against a sentence:, but in

order that frivolous appeals may [4 p.m.] be cltecked it is provid0d that if

the conrt of appeal to which application is made by the prisoner consid<>rs that the sentence is too short they shall have the power to increv~e the sentence. That will discourage frivolous appeals. Full pro­vision is made with regard to giving notice of appe~J within a certain time, and the applicant may be admitted to bail during th~ time the appeal is pending if the c0urt <l.pprove•. Power is also given to deal with property e lleged to have been stolen. At prp,;ent such property goE>·s to the rightful owner on the conviction of the prisoner.

The SPEAKER: Or-d~,· ! I <~m afnid th<e hon. membf'r is making- a second-ren.Jing spee<-h.

The SECRl~TARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTIO='!: I apologice, Mr. Spcak£r. It is very difficult •o give any infOPmation ith l"ft'".lpccli to a 1n_ a,~ ure of thh f.,,')l't 1 ithout going :·-ome·.c-hct into detail.

The SPEAKER: The hon. member can dec.! wi:h th3 lri:-,•i;•k.. of the m~:asure wi; hout g--oing into deta.ils.

'l''H> SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: I shell end<:avour to con­for,a to the pmctica in the few remaining remarks I have to offer. Power is given to deal with P"operty for the time being so as to prevent the vesting of that property.

Those are practically the whole of the pro­visions of the Bill. As the Speaker has said, this is practically a sccond·reading sp<>·Jch, and, that Leing so, I hope I shall be excused from inflicting a repetition of it on the House when we come to the seoond reading of the measure.

Question put and passed.

The PREMIER (Hon. D. F. Denham, Oxl•y) presented a message from His Ex­nllency the Govrrnor, intiml1ting that, hav­ing been informed of the objects of the Bill, h~e rrcommended the necessary appropriation to giye effect to its provision,.

Mr. THEODORE: I ask whether, in view of the late prc-;entation of that message from His Excellency, th<· introduction of the Bill is not rather irregular, and whether a Bill of such a nature ought not to have been initiated in Contmittec?

The PREMIER: No; the procedure is LJUiiP regular, and precedents can be shown for it if de~ired.

The SPEAKER: Do I under -tand the hon. 11'-''mber for Chillagoe to ask his ques­tion o; the Chief Secretary or of mysf-lf?

Mr. THEODORE : Of you, Mr. Speaker.

The SPEAKER: With regard to the ques­tion ntisod by the deputy leader of the Opposition, I point o··i t;,at a mc.•"'.,ge of the r.:ature of the on'l which has just been read to the Houso is usually present:.d in con­n<Jction with a Bill of this character ; the prrscnt prooodure is some,,.hat irregular.

FIRST READING.

On tho motio:: e;£ thJ SECRET \.RY FOR PPBLIC I:'\STRCCTION, the Bill was read a first time, and the ;Second reading made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

PRICKLY·PEAR DESTRUCTION ACT AMEND)1ENT. BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS CHon. J. Tolmie, Toowoornba) : In moving the second Teading of the Prickly-pear Destruction Act Amendment Bill, I desir<> t<> say that the nwasure was very fully ex­plained when asking for leave to go into Committee to comider tho dc3irableness of its introduction. It is a very short measure, c:mtaining only twv clau· "', v.nd the prin­cipleil comprised in it un· not numerous. The principal pro,:ision is that which give& po,ver to valida·l ,_; the ag-:·oP;Jlent ~nterr<l irto betwe3" th;• DPnartmcnt of Public Lands n nd Hr. Roberta· for the gnnting of 100,080 l.l·Jl; d o~ pric;·\L':r-p ·:tr land und-;~ t1~.e tz'rms set 0ut in the original .c-\ct. Under th3 proYisions of that Act t!u Mini· t·cr i~ hims0lf a narty to the emtract. ucod the con­tractor nuiv be tho lY:'·rc"'.y o: tlH ~Tinbter in ca3'1 of "disr-_lt'. Of cuu~~sr·, l·" rna·- haTf' 1'€Cour~-- und8r the. Act to tlP SLlprt:rne Court s:.:.ould a d~ .:;utc arl' ~ L :"'Y,;~f'n hill! tl_ld tl'.-1 der "Htn1':'r't:, but v1_e :-2ve no ~~ir,, t..J havo any r('r-ourEo to th-_, Suprmne vourt if it crrn b-• avoided, and this n1t.-.1.sure is introduced for the purpose of m'"'Jdng the Land Court the sole arbiter in caE' s whete disputes m;~y arise be-tween· the contractor and the Minister. Hon. members who have read the Bill will notice that it providea that one nrember of the Land Court may

Han. J. Tolm.ie.]

.782 Prickly-pear Destruction (ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

-constitute the court of appeal, uud that his decision is to be final. The Bill also validatBs the agreement which has been entered into between Mr. Roberts and the department, in so far that it purports to have been p asr cd as a portion of the original Act of 1912, and provides that any agree­ment made under the Act of 1912 shall be read and cunstnwd as if this measure had ·been in existone• · and had formed part of the original Act. The only other portion of the mcasurP to which rpferen~e need be made is the provision which gives power to make regulations for th•' proper carrying out of the Act. It was an ovcrsiq-ht that in the Act of last year no provision was included which g-ave power to the Governor in Council to make such rcg-ul«tions; and. seeing that it is necessary to amend the Act in connec­tion with the contract entered into with Mr. Robert•, we have taken ad\ antage of the opportunity to insert a provision giving the Governor in Council power to make regulations to carry out the purposes of the Act. Tho··<' arc the whole of the principles oi the Bill. The main principle enables us to carry out an agreement into which we have already entered, and which, I believe, will be a very satisfactory one for the Stat,;. I hope and believe that it will lead to prickly pear being d•"troyed in such large <juantities that we shall be able to secure for settlement very rich lands, which at the pre~cnt time are unasailable. I haYe much pleasure m moying the Bill be now road a second tim€).

Mr. HARDACRE (Leichhardt): I do not think there can be any objection to the general provisions of this Bill. It is quite right that the Land Court, or any member of that rourt, should be appointed as the body to decide any questions in dispute be­twoon the contractor and the Government. As the Minister has said, the Act paosed last year stipulot~d that o'rtain things should be gr.mted to the contr~ctor on certain sp,,ci­fied conditions, but made no provision for any re·:ponsible person or body int.rvening in the case of a disnute between the con­tractor and the department. Apparently, the,·efore, there is some• need for the appoint­mc:l1t of som>,,one to discharge that function ; but, while it may be right to prov·ide for such contingencies, it se<'ms to me that there is a little danger in connection with one of the provisions of the Act passed last year. Paragraph (b) of subsection (ix.) of section 3 oay•-

" After the expiration of the two yt ars immediately succeeding the period fixed by the agreemerrt for tho freeing of the land or any specifi,-,d block from prickly pear, the contractor shall, upon payment of the deed fee and assurance fee, be entitled to a deed of grant in fee-simple of the land or of such block, as the case may be, which has been freed and kept free.''

The danger may arise under that provrswn that, the ::VIinist«r h nin g made a contract with some person for ' e clearin<; of prickly pear irom a certr.,in areu, of land, and having gr:mted certain conce·,,;ions for that purpose, tho contn• ctor may obtain the freehold of a porti·m of the lsnd which has been only J.ightl~: infeeted with pear in comparison with the total area of land included in the contract. Therdore, under this provision, it is quit-e possible, unless we have some other amend-

[Hon. J. Tolmie.

ment, that the Land Court will have nothinJO to guide them. The contractor, being abso­lutely entitled to the area which he may have cleared off, may clear one of the most lightly-infc steel portions of the land, and when that nrovision comes before the Land Court, may say, "I can claim under that provi~ion to have this lightly-infested area given to me in fee-simple at the end of two veare, as I have cleared it, and you ca.nn~t do anything to prevent me under the Act." I think the Minister will see the danger. Subsection (xi.) of the principal Act provides-

" For the purpo:es of this section no area of land sh;tll be deemed to be hcaYily infe3ted the co:.t of the clearing of which from prickly pear would not in the opinion of the Land Court amount at least to the actual Yalue of such land if not so infe~ted."

That proYi,·ion would e.ppl;, to the whole of the land.

The Sr0RETARY FOR PUBLIC L.INDS : That would affect every section.

Mr. HARDACRE: If that is allowed to stand as it is at present, it will leave the door open to an entire evasion of the pur­poses of the Act. A man may rome along at.d gBt a contract for a large area of land and det about clearing one of the lightiy­infested portions of it; he may do that year after year, and final!y having g'?t 1!-ll, that he de .. ircs he can leave the heavrly-In1ested parts uncleared, and abandon the contract, having secured the b. 't pori·wns cf the area, without fulfilling the conditions.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The agreement specifies the portions he has t'(} clear, and the conditions.

Mr. HARDACRE: Whibt I have no ob­j<c--ction to the ,,oco_nd re;1~ing of th~, f3ill,, as therp is a resr .. onsrble body for decramg ~rs­putes, still, there is .a danger of. evas10;1, and I hope in Commrttee tl!e Mmrster wrll accept some amendments whrch wr!l provrde against the pov.Sibility of evasion or fraud.

Mr. HUNTER (i!Iaranua): ·while I am quito sntisfied it i~ a right thing to allow the Land Court to settle disputes which n,ay arise between the department and the e:Jn· tractor I am not at all desirous of sevmg lJOWer 'given to iRsuo regulations i_n. connec­tion with this matter. I am of opmwn that this Prickly-pear Bill is gomg, one day or anoth<>r, to land Queensland into a very nice mess and the smaller the area of land that' is dealt with under these conditione, the bettBr it will be for Queensland. vV e are told that the pr<:sent contractor is going to make a big success of his venture--that the specific used by him is beyond q:ues­tion a succes'. I have not seen the eun­'tractor .,t work but I have heartl very cap· abl~ mr,n exp~e:-,s their op1nion on this matter and thev ,·Jiffer .from the reports we hear from time to time in this ChJJ.mber. I have had an idra for a considcrahk· timo !hat it is a pa01ic in th" departm~nt thai has lee! to thio a:tmnpt which is being 111ads at the presenc time by the G;.;vcrnment to have land freed from pear. For quite a fo'v vears the r~f'nart~I....ent have ber)me sud­denly panic-stricken with the pr];-k1y-pear pest, and they are makonc; ag"eementa with private individuals for h .nding over hun­dreds of thousands of acr<· s of spare land_; while there are hundreds of thousands of

Prickly-pear, etc., Bill. [5 AUGUST.) Pearl-a!ull, etc., Bill. 783

'acres of land which is only lightlv infested adjoining htavily-infested land, "and · thes~ lands are being neglected while the Govern­ment are making all sorts of efforts to clear lands that are actually not worth clearing. ·For that n·ason I do not think the House is justified in spending much time over legis­lation of this description, for I believe that before many years we will find a profitable method of dealing with our heavily­infested lands. While I am quite satisfied that differences might arise between the contractors and the department with reference to contracts entered into I do not think more power should be rrivdn than has been given under the Act. "While the Government has a commission travelling <~tbroad, and are waiting for a report which may lead to some other methods of dealing with pt·ar land, I think we should not pro­cE\ed with further legislation on the matter. For those reacuns I intend to vote in Com­mittee against this clause.

Mr. B. H. CORSER (B<qnett): I am pleased to see this amending Bill brought forward by tho l'llinistcr, and I shall be pre­pared at an.r time to so am<:nd the Ant as to make it a perfect mea,ure. I conteHd that the amP!ldment making the Land Court thB arbiter between the t\\ o parties is fair, and I do not think am han. member vill oppc.,e it. I take tho opposite view to the han. member for :'!1aranoa in rPgard to the making of land availahle under this Act·. as it is a good thing, and that is proved by his own words when he states tlut the contra.ctor, who has already taken over 100,000 acres of pear-infested land, is about to make a good thing out of it. That shows that it is doing some good, nnd if we could amend ,tho Act so as to "nable the State to make a littl<: more out of it, wo would thereby be improving the measure. I would like, an explanation from the :Minister with regard to that portion of th;e I\ill dealing with the regulations. It is provided that the Governor in Council mav fron1 time to time make all such regulations as in his opinion are m·cessary for giving due effect to the ~\.ct. When the original Bill passed, the House decided that it shoald be operated upon to its fullest degree, and the Mini '·ter should make it pos-.ible for residenh of the State to take np areas under the Art vith the gnatest facilitv. It is a pitv the Min­·ister, when introducing the Bill, said it was not his intention to allow at the pre­,,mt timll anybody dse to h11ve the facilitieA -offered by thA measure; but I hope he will not rl!ow this sririt, which is crmtrary to the intention of the Act, to exist, but will enable as many people as may wish to take up land under the Act. The Bill might have been amended in one other particular to the interests of the State-I conte 1d that the Shte should have reserved to itself some right to a patent if it is proved t.j be a good one.

The SECRET\RY FOR PUBLIC LA":W0 : Mr. Roberts is prepared to sell it.

Mr. B. H. CORSER: He is prepared to sell, b,,t "18 C""own has m:•<le available to him 100,000 acres of L•nd free which, in itself, i• a "l~oiont reward to the man who is t•!ea-ing the land, and the State should have soF· ·i· h• at the end of that time to the !Hi ·., t to enable those who are not in '' ·ch po~ition as :Mr. Roberts is to clear lar~c :· r•'a~ of land to be able to do so a.t .the lc:azt po;, .iUe price. When the Minister

says it is desirable to propose an amendment which will give the State a right to a patent, then the Act will be a penect one. I hopE> the Minister will make it clear that such is his intention, and that any eradicator proved effective under this mea­sure can be made available for the ri"sidents of the count~y if they wish to make use of it.

Mr. COYNE (H'a,-rego): It seems to me that there is some· danger attached to this measure. Previously the Minister could deal with Mr. Roberts, or anybody <•lse who got this grant of 100,000 acr<>>, or any less area, wh!'n the Act was passed last year, but now it appears that thme is something new creep­ing in. Out of 100,000 acr<>s, it is quite possiL!e to find 10,000 or 20,000 acres not very heavily infested with pear. If I were a lessee, the first piece I would tackle in clearing the pear would be the most lightly­infested portion, and when that was cleared at a very small cost-even without the aid of the process-I could apply to the Minister for tho fee-simple of that portion as being properly cleared of pear. It is now in­ttmded to shift the r< 9ponsibility from the JI<Iinister to the Lanil Court, and I do not think that is a good thing. If the Minister took the responsibility upon hims0lf when the original Act was passed, it is only right that he should stick to that r<,•ponsibility. 'The chance" are that we will have the thickly-infe<"ted pear increasing in density, while the lightlv-infe.ted part will be cleared, and that would, under any circum­.,tances, be cleared if it were made available to th!'l ordinary settler. I cannot see that it is n1uch UBO encouraging any process what­ever unless it clears the thickly-infested pear land.

The SECRETARY FOR PT7BLJC LANDS : That is the agreement.

Mr. COYNE: If that is the case, that removes my principal obj<'ction, But if it w~re not so there is a great objection against amending th<' princioal Act in any way. I was against th•' original Act, and I think I was right then. As it has been made the Ia<~, we ought to stick to it, and not tamper with it as this Bill proposes. This measure lllerely proposes that if the Minister makes a mistak<', the Land Court should take the responsibility of it, and I do not agree with that.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDo : It ii not a mistake, but a disagreement.

Question-That the Bill bo now read a second time-put and passed.

The committal of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-monow.

PEARL-SHELL AND BECHE-DE-::\1ER FISHERY ACTS AMEND:ME:'~T BILL.

SECOND READING.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Be.rnes, JJuLnba) : A fc·w days ago, in seeking lf'P.Ve to introduce thic Bill, certain ques­tions were asked c•nd some information supplied to han. ~emb·"rs in connection with the Bill. Hon. members since then will hctve been in posse ;;io" of thf' Bill. and they will have Loticcd, in , ·tr"fully going through it, that the principal object of the Bill is to help tho-e co , "ned to feel that at last there is at lca"t sam<: security 'hhilst en­!l"ag-ed in the industry. The principal object of the Bill is to help those who are

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

784 Pearl-Bhell and Beche-de-Mer [ASSEMBLY.] Fuhery Acts Amendment B~ll.

engaged in the industry to feel at least that they have some security while engaged in that industry. Hon. members will know

that from time to time this in­[4.&:J p.m.] dustry has received some very

considerable attention not only from the Queensland Legislature, but from elsewhere. A very considerable amount of canital has been sunk by some of those who ar~ engaged in that industry, and at the present moment Mr. Tosh is engaged by one of those who has a very large inlerc•-t in it, and it is klt that it is important that men \\ ho are epgaged in that indu,.try should not only have the necessary right to be engaged in that industry, but that there should be some protection for them in con­nection >rith th:tt wodc Now, in addition, it has boon found th:1t som•·times conside:e­able sums of 1.1oney have been expended in placing shell in certain v:aters, und there has been no protection vthc.twer 1to thB parti.:s who pLcf·d the shell therP. This Bill seeks to protect those who are endeavouring to bre-od shell and to protect them from tho men who come from e;utside and take advant.tge of their labour and the money which they have expended.

Mr. McComiiACK: Tell us how you are going "to catch them.

The TREASURER: No doubt the hon. member is a pretty good hand at that kind of thing, and h' will perhars be able to tell us how to do it. .\t the present time, those people have their boats over tbt•se leases, and it is not possible for the ownor of the shell to send those prople M> ay-,•:en alth m h it may be surmisrd that they may

he the;e for the purpose of taking away the •hell. Hon. m;·mbcrs will agree that, whE>re people go to the e'l:pUN:l of breedi1ig ~holl in ordDr to cultivate an industry such as this, some protection should be given to

them. It is pleasing to know that tho industry itself, so far as the returns £ron~ the pcarl-sh<>ll are conc~rr;ed, is increasing. It increased un to the end of !art year fran-. 82,000 tons of pearl-shell to 92,000 tons of pearl-shell. Whilst that may not be a very big increase, still it indicates that the efforts of the pcopln Dngaged in this particular industry are being met with some measure of success. The Bill makes it possible for applict~tions for leases to be made hs those who already hold leas<•s. That moans that they can comn under the proyisions of t.his Biii straight away. Provision is made for forfeiture in th0 Dvent of non-payment, and pov- er is also gh·en to seize certain shipf'l ew.;e.ged in tho indmtry. No person shall r·· chell with or without a Iicnnsc from. any 1•cd land. \Vhat •·, nw•mt by th:.t is this: An objec'.ion is take'1 by .come p•ec-)E> P'?aiP .t n .. ,-·ir rcr . .._ova} r.<[rnply bcc;:cUP8 they hold a lici"lsc. This Bill •.;·ovides that evu1. if ;} D0'·~,~·n h~s a pearl-d.nll a·-d h;che-dc­nwr hcensP, he c~n::ot go ('..:.1 tbn -ropert·.-.r of som: :~r~'} cl t~ i\lld f~·ke hi.s IL,l. It is imnc.· ~ibl-} for that tv b~ d 1:r:.0. unf!cr a PO;,.tlty Y,hir.-;1 is laid dov,fi in n;e ~ill, ~-f £50. There is another phase Dl t:;e Prll which is a md cor rc0omrrc -·mkd by +hG Govr·mmed A''"·nts, and it has met with the i.ppron I of all thos? engaged. _in !he inrl~::stry. _._q_t t1:-J present hmeJ ~l con! ;rbub'?n of ls. ner head is m·>· 1e by men f ngagC'd rn the in<lustrv. The Bill makes provi,ion for incrGa -ing that contribc:tion from ls. to ls. 6d. per head.

!Han. W. H. Banus.

Mr. THEODORE: What is the object of that? Is that to go to the hospital funds?

The TREASURER: Yes. The hospital needs are such that it requires assistance from theF•< men. As we know, these men follow a precarious and a risky ~ailing, and the parties have expressed a desire through the Government agent that an. extra charge may be made so that the hospital may have the fulle ,t advantage of it.

Mr. COYNE: I suppose the men are prac­tically forced into that position?

The TREASURER: Tho hon. gentleman is probably thinking of something that happened not long ago. In this case there is no forcing. Ther~ is one other matt"!lr mentioned in the Bill. Hon. members w11l c'ee at the end of the Bill that there is a s-cientific term given for pearl-shell. When this term was used before we were told that th·• pearl oyster was described as a wild animal.

Mr. CoYNE: It is a very tame animal.

The TREASURER: Yrc:, it is very tan;e. If this scientific name is left in the Bill, and there is a prosecution, i~ will ~reak -down because the correct tArn1 IS not g1ven, so consequently the words relating to the scientific name of the pearl oyster ar~ le!t out of the Bill altogether. I do not thmk tt is necessary to make a long s;;eec~. Although the Bill is not a long cne, rt ~Vlll be fou!'ld to be ver: helnful to a most important m­dustry-an industry w_hich is surrounded y ith a good deal of difficulty and trouble. I have very much plf'ao,ure in moving the ,,. ond reading of the Bill.

Mr. THEODORE: I thought it was pos­sible that the hon. member for Cook, who has been interested in the peJ,r!-sh!'ll and beche-de-mer fishery, might have giV:en us smEe infomation with regard to . rt. .I thought perhaps he might have grven us some information wrth rczard to the finan~es of the Straits H{'opital, to justify the m­mease of the wages tax imposed npon thos0 <:mgaged in the pearl-sheil industry. I would like to call the attention of the Treasurer t<> the condition of this industry at present. We know that the employees in that in­dustry almost wholly are ~siatics, a;nd that the C<;mmonwealth is takmg cert<:tm steps which will no doubt, reoult in white men being solely employed in thi? industry. They a '"0 taking those steps wluch they <>xpe'?t will be brought about b;- the end of this year. I think tl;at the Sta~e G~v:wnme':t of Queenslar- 1 mterest~d Itself . 111 this mathJr, but it could easrly have rntereste? it~glf yr-ars ~~g·o 1 and if . it h~~d ,dol}e

1 so It

"\Voul--1 have hcon a vvh1te 1:>~1'1 s 1nc:.ustry to-'' 'J'· (Hrar, lwnr !) I _think thcct the 'I'reasur~r will freely a-dm1t tt 1~ rf Jhe St: tc Govo:rniT·~n:- had ::tke:J t<lrhnn ac,Ion in t:1e last ye,:~r or t\vo, the industry y.-ould have b{'en a "·hi+ • man'·, industry by 11ow. .._'\_q t2le r, .suit of t~c irquirics LEtde by the Co1nmon'\'f<~~!~1 G<JY .... _·rninent in reg<tr-d tq tl:._e pnarl-shell i1 t1c,ozry, it is thought th":t It n1i~.:;ht be 'Cliff·~ nit to gr~t Eu1 :J}leJn d1vm.s who would be \;illing to take on tho work, but in order h meet that difficulty the Commonwealth anthoritie·; are following up a "W'"o-estion made by tho e engag0d in the indu;t';v to train Europezm divers and fit them for the particular busines" of eli ving for pearl-shell. I think that that sugges-

Pearl-Bhell and Beahe-de-Mi!'i· [5 AUGUST.]' Fishery Aats Amendment Bin. 785

tion might be followed up by the State Go­vernment, <tS the State Government will have more direct control of the industry than the Commonwealth Government. The Common­wealth Government can only indirectly con­trol !t by prohibiting the employment of oertam forms of labour. The State should h~ve made provision for training European drvers. The State should .also have made inquiry into the cause of the great mortalitv amongst divers in order to reduce it as much as ~ossible. vVe know from the reports of the ms;w<:tors of pearl-shell fishing that the morta!Hy Is.\ ery mgh. In 1911, the latest figures ave.Ilable, there were twenty-one deaths amongst divers out of a total of 192 engaged in ~he indu,_try. That is a very heavy mortality, n'ld 1t practically a•nounts to the nme perceLtage year by year. The Govt:rnrdcnt should do somethino· to reduce that mortality if porsible even aluhouo-h the deaths take place principally a~on:rst Japan~se. It i'' for the Government to make this i,·dustry attractive to white men because i~ is a va_luable indu try, and, if made attrac­trv•', whrtu men mrv be more extensively employc>d in it. If is an industry from· which a considprab1e source of revenue can be obtainPd by tho State, while it rebrns to th<J<:"') .. :_-ngab'Od in it a considerable sum of monc,·c, amounting to many thousands of J?,ounds. It woul~ b~ of g~c:Jt advanta_go to ;:!:.3 State to rna_,;e It a T.r.tntc :r_nt_tn's In­dustry, and it could be made a business worth following up by white men. The Com­monv. ea lth arc taking steps to carry that out, and that result will be brought about. I hope when we get into Committee that the TrcH ;ur-er v ill tdl us why it is that the s,tate poverm;cent has been_ ':'' glecting its c,ec~r cut/ '' rt.1 l"·~·,w l to thrc mdustrv and why it ha•; Jc[t it ~olelv in the hands "dr the Japan:·-e, while no pr~vision was made for removmg th0 causes which lead to the heavv mortality among the men engaged in it. ·

Mr. DOUGLAS (CQ~k): It was purely out of courtesy to the deJJutv leader of the Opposition that I refrained from rising to addrc3s the House when the Treasurer sat down. I expected th:<t we would have some bona fide criticis:n from the Opposition, and I therefor•o reframed from taking precedence ahc~.d of the deputy leader of the' Opposi­tion. I listened carefully to what the deputy leader of the Oppo;ition had to say, and .I mu.ct confess that I am entirely at a loss to undor;3 and his reasoning from the point of view of making this industry a white man's industry, working on the iines proposed by the Federal Government. I have dwa·,·s held, since I have been a mem­ber of this House-and the records of the Roval Commission of which I was a member will show that our ideqs were the same­t1rat a>sistance ·J!wuld b" given in th,, cultiva­tion of pearl-"hcll, as that would be one of the chief means of making this indu try more beneficial fer the peonle of our own race. I mninta•in that we should assi3t in the cultivation of pearl-shell in the sa"Yle way th"t we assist in the cultivation cf our agricdtnral lands, and that would be the very best means whereby we could sr 't!e a larger number of people and get a larger ~umber of white persons engaged in this mdustry. I am very pleased to sc•e t bat this Bill is going to give some protcu;ion to those who, I hope, will take up leases tu,der our existing Pea:d-shell Acts. The endeavour

1913-3 0

is being made to modify the provisions of section 16 of the Act of 1891, which reads--

" The Governor in Council may grant a lease oi the whole or any part of an outlying reef or bank, or of the fore­shore of an island, or of any Crown lands lying below high-water mark in any river, inlet, estuary, or creek, or any lands lying below tidal waters within the limits of the territorial jurisdiction of Queensland, for the collection, storage, cultivation, or propagation, of pearl oyster shell or of heche-de-mer, or of sponges or other products of the sea," et.c.

Some years ago thes•' Acts were availed of fairly largdy by one company which had considerable interests in that indu'•try, but, unfortunately, the unscrupulous alien divers, who either had boats of their own or who were employed on other persons' boats, came along and p·oached on those leasehold' and actually stole the shell which had been laid down by those who had spent a groat deal of money in trying to propagate the pearl oyster. The pearl-shell was marked, and •it was identified afterwards as being the property of the Clark Cultivation Comparcy. A case was brought before the Dc>trict Court, wrd it was laid down by the presiding judge that pearl-shell was not capable of being stolen as it was " a wild animal," and could net be stolen. This Bill

• seeks to rectify that matter. It also lays down clearly that those who take up lenses on the fm·c"c·hor<es of Torres Strait w1ll have ampk protdction from persons who may be inclined to poach. It provides that nobody but tho.e authorised by the lessee may be allowed to go on the area covered by the lease, that he may be ordered off and pro­ceedings may be instituted for trespass. I think that is going to be very beneficial in the interests of the industry, and I hope many more leases will be taken UP. The Treasurer, in introducing the Bill, made reference to Mr. Tosh, the biologist, who had been engaged by the Government, and who had recently again taken some part to discover the best means to cultivate pearl­shell. His efforts have been suppo reed from private financial resources, but I main­tain that a man of Mr. Tosh's ability and knowledge of pearl-shells should have been engagpd from a public point of view-that. his services and the knowledge he possesses should have been made available for the b<'nefit of the whole community. And per­haps it is not too late to hope that something

, might be done •in the future. I think that it is one of the best things that we could look forward-to encourage this cultivation of pearl-shell. We go in for cultivation and experimental farms in the South and in the North, and I think this indmtry is deserving of more consideration than it has had at the hands of the Government. I may say, this Bill will go some way in assisting people who desire to take up !eMf'S, and I am glad to see that it has been intro<tuced. We have been a long time battling for it. Eut there are one or two other provisions that I hope may be introduced into the Bill in Committee. I would not like to see any monopoly created in the matter of licenses to vessels. I think that in one section one or two words will have to be cut out, because we do not want to create any monopolies.

Mr. Douglas.]

786 Pearl-shell and B~che-de-Mer [ASSEMBLY.] Fishe'1'1J Acts Amendment Bill.

And I would abo like to see some amend­ment to prevent any fresh licenses to any Asiatics to engage boats in the industry. I hope we may 1nake son1e little am~ndment to section 2 of the . \ct of 1899, whiCh pro­vides-

" No ship or boat shall be licensed unless owned wholly by pe1sons of the following description (in this Act re­fBrr0d to as qualified pBrsons), namely-

(a) Natural born British subjects; (b) PBrsons naturalised by or in

pursuance of an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom or by or in pur­suance of an Act or Ordinance <Jf the proper legi ·lative authority in a Briti::h po~>. ,ession:

(c) Persons made d<>nizens of Queens­land bv letters of denization;

(d) Bodies corporate, consisting wholly of qualified persons, established under and subject to the laws of some part of Her Majesty's dominions."

Well, I want to see this amended, if pos­aible, to provide that no aboriginal native of Australia, Asia, or Africa, or the Islands of the Pacific, or any penon who, by lineag<cl, belongs to any of th0 aforesaid race", shall bo qualified to engage in it. The rpason is that for "Ollie years past, as I think the Trea•vrrer well knows, the 'licenses have been in existence for certain naturalised alien.- to (·.ngage in the incluf.\ry. ThesP. persons wor1.: their vescels through other aliene, who are not naturalised, on s ,me sy•<trm which no one e':actly understands or can fathom, and it is a curious thing that these boats g. •t enormous cn.Lhes of pc.ul-shell and other ma;·ine products, far greater than the bo•>.t J

which arc vng2g-ed by the ordinar.f Britioh subjet·is "ho work their ve•:,L from the shore. The onlv conclusion is that there is some system of· illicit traffic on the grounds -that io, the divers who are employed by the Europcnn ov.ner', sell or barter, trade their sb•ll in eomc "'"Y to these bo~t.s owned by th.• natur<tlised ali•ns. And I would like to see some amendment that no further vessel" shall be licensed to an.v person who is an abori,;;inal native of Asia, Africa, or any of th<> Australian ;,Jande. I excel>t, of <'ourse, the nati'. of Torre• Strait who, I think, should have licenses wher" the Home Secretary thinks such should be; givLn. If this amendment of this section is not made, there may be illicit traffic for many vears to Ull1l", until we bring a further Bill to prevent it. The Treasurer knows very well that in the last two years pro•,r·cutions have heen in tituted againfi"t one particular indi­vidual, who W<ts working V<'••RBls in the in­duntry apparently under th~ dumm,·ing SJstem, harking under the namo of a <•"'­partner, who was a naturali<·•cl British ·sub­ject. He was several times prorecuted at 'I'hur:,day Island, but no proof could be shown of what connection he had with this other man. People in th,, industry are e:>c­tremely desirous of seeing this condition of things straightened out, and I hope that the House will give very serious attention to the mn.tter, and we shall get an amendm<'n:t on the lines I have indicakd. We have this provision in our Electoral Act, and I do not; see any re~son why it should not be inserted in the P0arl-shell Bill. If there is an:y difficulty in applying it, it might be done by making them comply with a language

[Mr. Dmtglas.

test and I hope we shall have the support of hon. member'• on the other side ?f the House, and that the Govprnme!lt wrll see their wa\ to meet the sugge<twn I have made. I' wish to call :rttention to a section of the A.ct of 1891 to which I did not see anv ref;rcnce in t~ Bill. It is in referen~e to· the persons who are eligible to deal m pearls. As the Hou·e is aware, frc:m the re~ords which come before us from trme to time, thBro is a co,1siderable export of pearls. It is raLhcr difficult to get at the value, but the Customs' records show that last ynn, for instance, they amounted to £12,000-not a ven large sum, but there are. many 'Y~ys of getting pearls out to Au_straha of wnrch there is not meanq uf chvckmg; th;· value. I think ,•.omething should l~e dow·· to alter our existing Acts so f~tr ae those persons ;;ho are allowed to deal in pear Is are concerned. Section 14 of the 1891 Act provides-

" The police magistrate at Port f'=0!1· nedv rna"\ arant to any per,,Dn ,,~ ho 1s, rn his ~piniOn~ of good charac.ter and repu­tation, a liccm3 to deal m pearls. .A fee of twentv-five pounds shall be pard for the licen,e.''

Section 15 of the s1.1me Act provides for the sale of pearls only by licensed do:tlers .. It means that a per"on who may be passmg through Thur:oday Island and sea:·~ then:J for a few -days, may want '~ ·:> acqurre a few pearls and tho Act provides that these per­sons ;h,JI not brr allowed to purchase these Jx.u-h from anybody but a licnn-ed deale.r. 'l'l;e obj"'ct whc n the Act went t.hrough m 1891, introduc"d by the la.tB. Eon. D. f~. Dalrymple. who tnen was. ~~i;u ter for. Ag~r­culture, was to prevent rlhcrt traffickmg m pearls. But in thore days the .ystem was quite different from what it is to-day. In thoee clays the boats W' re cwnecl by J<;uro­P' ·lhd--as they are to-day-br;t the drvers were supposed to give up the pearls they found to t~e o·,,·mr, as th• y gi<e up the ehell ahd other marine product<, but it J::as been found impossible to force div(lrs to grve up the ... · pearls, which can ea<.ily be sec~eted in their p!lrBom·. The s} -;+em now rs to allow the men who get tL pearl-shell to keep tL·: pearls and do '• hat they li. c with them. Thi'' !Hems that the industn may be a ver:· protitable one from the diver'e, pc:int of view. A man may be very fortunate m get­ting· good pearls , .. hieh h' em sell, but the ownf'rs of the boai·s recognise that they may ;ust as v; ell give them the pearls and say ~othing abou~ it, The Act, as it ;reads to­cia" ;, simply a dead letter. I thmk there ar~' rome five or six liccmsed dealers who pay their .£25 to t1 n Trea~·1rcr,. and a rev,_,nue is provided of "omsJthmg like £150 pN annum. It '"ems to me unjust taxation, henause no prOS()cuticrC1 takes place, and the illicit traffic is going on withoL~t any che~k. There have been a f!lW cases o, prosccutwn in past oears, but nothing hits been done for some time, simply because t1ce system ]1, allAred from what it was in the old dave. I think this s;:-ction should be am•'nded, ,~, "d that a reduc('d license fpe rhould be cho.re;cd, a nominal fpe of, say, £5. The r. ve: ue derived from the licen• by the 'l'rUJ,~ urer would probably be just ~ 1nuch as it is to·clay, oecause a !"reat many more peo•:]n would bke out licenses if the fee ''as w.v'll. It means thnt to-clay peo:Jle refuse to tdw th,,m out because the fee is so high. I think it is a mistake that this state of affairs should be allowed to exist .and to

Pea1·l-shell and B6che-de-Mer [5 AuGUST.] F'1shery Acts Amendment BiU. 787

~ontinue. I would much rather see it abo]. ished altog-ether, beeaus(J anybody wi10 does not know of these conditions may come and buy from an unlicemcd dealer, and so be liable to a heavy penalty. Consequently I would like to ,,ee some amendment made in Committe.,. I do not think there is anything very conbcmtious in the Bill other ,,·ioe. I welcome it myself as a means of providing for more profitably carryi11g on the industr:, now and in the future. It means that if we ran establish cultivJ.tion farms, tiH· cost of producing- pearl-ohell ;··ill be reduced. The cost to-day is about £170 per ton, and, according to th.e report of the Government Hesident, I notic., that the official records show that the declared. val uP last ye:tr was

-<:>ver .c£200 per ton. It IS rather hard to get at the actual value, because the sk·ll is sold on tho London markets, and they often give a value higher than vcas deckred at tb~ timE> of export. Tho industry has been cc~rried on v, ith good returns during· the lent fr>w years, but there is no permanency. It has gone throu!':h many ups and downs, :" many as any industry in Australia, and perhaps

more. UnL, •s son1e ~y:;tem of cn­!5 p.m.] com·aging cultivation is adopted,

I do not see how it can be looked upon as a very permanent industry, more partic.ularly for our own people. If pearl­shell farms r J.n be esta :,lie hed along various islands in Tor;·e> Strait, pcarJ-qhell can be produced at a cost of about £150 per ton, employment will be given to a large number of people, and a largo quantit:v of sh.ll will ·be sent to the mark<et. It is imp a •. ,iblcr for thor.e v.l10 tn,.de in pearl-shell and utilise it for commercial purposes to go be.) mod a cor­rain limit in price. The greater part of the pearl-shell produced is U;o(·•l in the manufac­ture of buttons for clothing and such like purposes, and when the price of the ·shell excr cds a c<·rtain limit, the m:mufacturers sub3titnt.e some other m:ttorial for pearL This Bill will go a long ·xay tow:wds .1S,,ist­ing in the 1 c·oper cst.tbLhment of the in­<l.ust"y from the nearl-Bhf'll agricultural farm point of view. I hope thac the m<easure will commend itself to the favourable considera­tion of the House, and that when we get into Cnmmi;~ee some little a.me.ndments may be made on the lines I have indicated.

Mr. IL\HDACRE: The han. member who ha.s ju·.t wt down certainly knows more about tho ;--earl-sh,-ll industry than I do, but I have p;lanc••·d over the provisions of this measure, and it see1ns to me that it proposes to give to the Minister too lar7e .a power with respect to the ]e,,sing of areas for· pearl­shell cultivation. At preoent, under the princip,,l Act kases of foreshores may be grantd for the purpose of cultivating oysters, but ;n this moasure it is propo'''J to go a much lon7t:r distance, and give the Govern­ment power to lease superficial areas of the ocean.

Hen. R. PHILP: We are doing that now in Morebn D''Y·

Mr. IIAHDACHE: Yes, but in this mea­Bure it id propo cod to !SO Yory much hrther than we h11ve gone in any other memure up to thcJ present time. It 'Nil! actually giv<e the Govemment power to lea~'> areas of the

-QCAan below high-water mark and within Queensland t0rritory, !tlld to allow only the lesser> to take pearl-shell and heche-de-mer lrom that part of the ocean, every other

person being prevented from going on that particular are" with any ship or boat, unless compelled to do so by stress of weather or any other reasonable cause. Moreover, the .:\linister ;3 to have power to !<ease an;--. <1J:CCa, no matter how big; for there are no llmita­tions impt ,vel, and tho arc-a may b? 20 or 100 or 1,000 square miles. J'\ at on!} IS them no limit as to the aroo which may be leased, but there is also no limit as to the period of the leaoe. \Yhere lea,es have been granted in <eonnection with other industries, as, for instance, th<e p;J.storal industry and the mining _industry, there has .always been a. limitation as to time and a limitation us to area imposed. l\o doubt something should be clone to regula.rise . the condition un~er which those engtcged m the pearl-shell n:.­dustry sh·Juld hold cultivation areas, but It is going too far whPn we give power to g:=t leas· s without lin1iration as to area or t1m0, a,1d make it a),colutely prohibitivP, under a penalty of £50, fer r,ny person to go on ;a. leased area with a ship or boat un]e,s he IS driven there by stress of weather. A lN!.sed an--ct may be useful for other purposes be­sid•" pearl-she'] fishinf!O. and Fame other boat might go tlwre Jar the purpose of caLhing some other kind of fish, and might do so wi'chou'; interfering in any way with the pearl-shell cultivation: but this measure a.> it at prcsPnt stands would pr~vent any P'cr.-on fi,hing on a leased area without the leave of tho lessee. 'Jlhere is also danger of clashing between the Stah: legislation .and the Commonwealth legislation on this sub­jc:ct. The Commonwealth Governme:'t are going to bring in a measure. to rest;Ict the indu,-try to Europeans, and It IS qmte pos­sible that the State may agree to the em­ployment of aliens i<I ~he. i~dustr.y, so t~at W<: mav find our· elves m tlns pos1tron: tnat aliens ·own a ]eas~o and white men are employed to work i.t. But the fir ,t danger I have referred to IS the most sec·wuR, and I horye that when we go into Committee ····0mrthing will be done to limit the time and. area of the leases, and to modify the posi­tion which prohibits any person other than the Jrosee from going on to a l<'ase? are~. The lease which may be granted unuer this measure is very like a lease v-.hich. would give a pastoral le'coee the exclusive rrght to overythins: included in his leas" arla, where­as we know that every pastoral lease is ,u'Jject to limitations, and. does not gi.ve the le'''l' the right to the timber or mmerals or gems which may be found cu his land. I trust that while we shall ,endfl!1vour to off<>r every facility and encouragement to the p--·arl-shell industry, 1ve sJ:all tRke ca:re to a\oicl t~v~ (~x-:-r~-'<llO of granhng leases without c:_-:: ... y litni~ -~-icn v.ho1tSo1-·ver.

Mr. FORSYTH (iliurrumba): The han. gentlema'l who has just sat down--

The SPEAKEH : Order ! nH mber a.-"" :_1_ressing me?

Is the han.

Mr. FORSYTH: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The han. mun '· , •. wLo has just sat down is very much afro' , thd if this mensurP is paosf'd large> ~~e:ts wi'; he tak:m up by pm·sons w_ho may wi,,h to engage rn the pearl-shell m­dustry. Sur the hon. n1en1ber is a·ware that th" nr"·' nt law authorises anyone who likes to t :tk'.. up land for the purposes of pearLbcT tcl:iivation, and that very few perscnn ta1~e advantage of its provisions. We must all be agreed that if a man goes to th•

Mr. Forsyth.]

Pifi:lrl•'shell, ·etc., ·Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] 'Railways Bill.

trouble and expense of laying down spat for the purpose of cultivating the pearl-shell he ia entitled to some' consideration.

Mr. HARDACRE: Nobody objects to that.

Mr. FORSYTH: If a man has leased a small piece of land on an island or on the mainland for the purposes of pearl-shell cultivation, it is only right that he should have protection with respect to the land on which he has put down spat or young shell, so that he may afterwards get the shell he has put down, and that nobody else should be allowed to go there and take ·away the shell. Some ~ears ago a ·quantity of shell was put down at Thur&day Island, and a lot of it was stolen by Japanese. This shows the necessity for in.\erting some provision· in this Bill to protect lessees who engage in pearl-shell cultivation. I am by no means as sanguine as some person,; seem to be with regard to the success of p<·arl-shell cultiva­tion. The whole thing is an experiment, and we c:.mnot tell what the result will be. If it is a success, it will be a good tJ.,ing for the country. A large proportion of the shell at Thursday Island is obtained by aliens, and I think it is most advisable that a measure should be passed to protect Euro­peans who go into this particular industry. With regard to the terms of the leases, I hold that a man who gets a l<>ase under the provisions of this measure should have it for a period of ten or fifteen years, because he has to wait sev8lal years after nuttino· down the spat bofure the shell comes t~ maturity. I agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Cook that licenses have been gretnted to Japanes0 and Chinese, and that they work in with other aliens r;ho are using boats belonging to white men-that they have bE'~n in the habit of taking shell in boats belonging to white men and then sellin;; that shell to aliens in other boats. It is a very wise thing to prevent this illicit selling of shell, and I would go even further and forbid the granting of licenses to alien.;. I also think that no license should be grant-ed to any native of Australia, but that all lice~ses should be entirely in the hands of wh1t-e men. If a: clause to that ~ffect were inserted it would be a great Improvement to the Bill. With re,.ard to the pro;)osal to incroose the amount d~ducted from WaiTeS for hospital relief from 1s. to Is. 6d. per month, I think that is a very good provisiml. I should think that pearls and sh<ells would be worth £150,000 a year to Queensland, a.nd that i~ a consideration. ·with regard to the hospital charge, we must bear in mind that this ls. levy will onlv amount to £500 a ye<l.r. There are .a great many aboriginals and Jaoanese up there 8.nd it takes •a lot of m~ney to run th~ hoicpital, and, therefore, I do not see why theta should be any objection to pay this am0 unt. Tl:.<Jy cannot expect hospitals to be run. up there like they are in other parts of Queensland, as the conditions are so different. I think this should be altered in the dimction of increasing the amount. The hon. member for Cook is quite right in his suggested amendment ·Fhen the Bill comes into Committee, and I think it would be ·a benefit. For th0se r~·Jl·'ons I intend to sup­port the second reading of the Bill.

Question-That the Bill be now read a zeoond time-put and passed.

The c~mmittal of the Bill was ma.de an Order of tho Day for to-morrow.

(Jlfr. Forsyth.

RAILWAYS BILL. CoMMITTEE.

(ilir. J. Stodart, Logan, in the chair.} Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, put and passed. On clause 4-" Repeal"-

Mr. ADAMSON (Rockhampton) wished to r-efer to subclause (iv.), which read-

" All rules, regulations, and by-laws in force at the commencement of this· Act having reference to tho Stat-e rail­ways, and not inconsistent with this Act, shall be read and conbtrued as if the· same had be•·n made, and shall be deemed to have been made as by-laws und0r the authority of this Act, and shall be and ,·emain in full force untir alter<·d or repec.Ied under the authority of this Act."

During the discussion on the second reading, references were made to the obnoxious nature of some of the regulations and by­laws in force at the present time, especially to No. 18 in the Staff Regulations, which mad-

" Employees of all ranks are to re­frain from taking any part in political affairF, othorwise than by exercise of the franchise."

This was a matter which had be-en dis­cue-ed in the House a gre:.t many times, but they had never received any satishc­tion. Again and again th,, matter had been brought under the notice of the Han. the Min.ister. Railway servants had a right to tho full citizenship of this State just as tnuch as anyone e~se, and a raihva.\7 e1n­ployee should be eligible, without hct ving to resign his position, to stand as a •nember of ParliamEmt and discus' politicnl matters as freely and openly as an~- other citizon, ar.d they should do ••omothing towards repealing •·tafi regulation 18. Then there were other roguhtions which had to do with the enter­inco of men into the workshops and different places of th•• railway service. They must enf..r after twenty-one, and before thirty­five, but many men aft.·.,r thirty-five were quite a.s fit to do certain work in the service as any man under thirty-five. There were othPr regulations which provided that un­less a m:m passed a kind of certain litBrary examination he should not be either a ekilled labourer, or a blacksmith's striker, and so on. Those things were foolish and' altogether unnecessary. He would like with­out moving any amendment ·in th0 matter­though he would be prepared to do so if tlvy coul<l not g0t something satisfactory f~·om the ::l,linicter-before any other regula­tions \vere ,npproved-and the existing rcgu­iations, ino, ,,hould be amended in scm<> wa.u-to n1.ake then1 more in conformity with comm.Jn sen···d, and 1nore in acc~Jrdanee with fair play so far as politi~al things were co:wcrned.

~1Ir. :KIRW XN (Bri?bo'>le) fully expect"d' th0 Mini·rer would rise and sav that it wa,;· pos!'ible to haYc ~n alteratio:e:l in son1e of thG'·' regulationn. \Vas it likely wlwn this Bill had been passed that all the regulations that had hitherto been deemed advi"able, as far as th, heads of the department and the Minister were concerned, would still exist, and no alterations be rr '!.de? Sur-ely the hen. gentleman did not take up the attitude that they were go in~< to be like the laws of the Medes and Persians.

Th,~ SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: They wereo­altered last year.

Railways Bill. [5 AUGUST.] Railways Bill.

Mr. KIR\VAN: .As far as staff regula­tion 18 was concerned, the House gave an <ilXpre,sion of opinion, and the Han. the Min­ister stated the other evening that Parliament was supreme in these matters, so he hoped the Minister would seo that Parliament was supreme as far as that regulation v, as con­cerned, and would wipe it out. If it was not wiped out, he hoped tho Minister would be absolutely fair as far as its enforce'Uent ''as concerned. Th,··v knew that tho.·.e em­ployees who had sec'n fit to come out !md advocatB the principles of a certain p:trty, either on the public platform or by their actions, had been penalised, while on more than one occasion some officials had got off \vork for a dayJ and hN n paid, in order that they might support the party on the CTreasury b~ nches.

The SECRm'ARY FOR RULWAYS: I think that is incorrect.

:Mr. KIRWAN would be sorry to make any statement that he did not bBiiBve to be absolutely correct. However, ;tS the han. gentleman had questioned it, he could pro­vide him with the nams of the individuals­it happened at Roma Street and the Ipswich workshops. If the supporters of -one party were to be penalised, then tho supportArs of th., party to \Yhich the han. gentleman belonged should Le penalised. But he wa,, not advocding that; he was advocating that thr,,e men should be per­fectly free on an election day to support or advocate the principles of any party they might deem best fitted to govern the ·de$tinies of this State.

A'f r. CoYNE: B,,fore or after election day. Mr. KIRWAN: Before or after election

•day. He did not say these men should wear any uniform, or take part in a debate on a public platform whik on duty, but once -off duty, the Commissioner should order that the Staff Regulations should not apply to these men. If an individual saw fit to join the railway service, it was no reason why he should sacrifice certain of his righh as a oitizen. He would like an expression from the Minister as to whether it was the inten­tion of the department to adhere to rule 18, notwithstanding that this House had ex­pressed its opinion that it should be abol­ished. There Wl1S another matter he would like the Minister to give information about, which ramo under the question of regula­tions. Was .it the intention of the Railway Department in hture to pay the wages that private cmplocers were compelled to pay? Men who had joined the service y<-ars ago, before v, a:;-es boards were introduced, now found them ·elve·. in the position that while the private employee outside benl'fited when a W&ges board award was given, he was kept ·down by some ref~ulation or by-law. Surely the department was in a pogition to pay the wage thee the privat•i·' employer who ran his businoss for the ),urposc of making a profit and a living Wrts eompellf·d to pay 1 He trusted that the Haih;ay Department would not be known as a sweating institution. There were instances of a differpnce of lOs. or ·15s. per week in regard to the wages paid for the same cla.ss of work.

Mr. COY!i'.c : For the same class of work? Mr. TROUT : Is it the same elass of man ?

Mr. KIRWAX: Did the han. member in-sinuate that all the men in the department were wasters, and that they should be put

;Cn a lower wage? Did he suggest that the

Commissioner employed a lot of incornp!!~ tents and ne'er-do-wells 1 There were men in the department who were doing equally as good work as the private employees out­side and they were entitled to the same rem~neration. He hoped they wo~l?- have a declaration of policy from the lVhmster as to whether it was his intention to r!)peal rule 18, and to pay the wages private em­ployers outside were compelled to pay.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Vith. respect to rule 18, there was a dis­cussion some twdve months or two years agp in the HousE' when he stated he thought It was not in the interests of public servants that they should take a public part in J?O~iti­cal matters, and he was still of that opm1on, and he felt certain that a vast number of ~he public servants of the State did not desm; to do so. • He was of opinion that rule ~8, as it was a few years ago, was too drastiC. '.rhey had altered it, and it now read-

" Employees of all r::nks ap;: to refrain from taking any part m pohti_cal affairs, otherwise than by tht: exercise of the franchise."

·what did that mean ? It m<•an.t that every man. whether he \\a& in the railway or the public ,,ervice general_ly, cou_ld tal~e any _r;art he chao,, in connectiOn with his poht10al belief, if he did not ov('rstep the bounds--

~11r. Conm: He is precluded by )OUr regu­lations fro1n doing· .,4o.

The SECRETAEY FOH RAIL\\;"AYS: As a matter of fact, unless a man ~aid chat he proposed to flout th_e re~':'Iatwns, no notice WaS CYCI' bken of It. Vi Ith reference to the matter brought forward by thB han. member for Brisbane as to the rates o~ pay, the waf;es in the Railway Department, In o~e or two instanccf;, perhap,', were , not. tl:o>e arranged for by wages boards m similar trades out"ide.

::\1r. BERTR.\·:.c : Why is that?

The SECRETARY FOR ;RAILWAYS: Because the men in the Railway Depar:t­ment got many l~rivile_ges that the men m private employ did not.

Mr. KIRW.\X : My word, they pay for them!

The SECRETARY FOR R"'\ILW A~S: Xot only tlut, but they were _m cc;_nstant employ, and the feet that they chd no• want to lea,·c the dcr·.trtment y;;cs the best answer that he could give.

'>lr. COYN'C: Some of t',c. r, plies given by the ::1fini: !cr to the questwn> that .~ad been a::.kcd hin1 were rathf'r v,<3"ue. Iho l1linister .-aid that the r<'a'on tno Govern­Iucnt did IH .. t pay railway n1rn the sarr;e

wages "• private employ~rs pa1d [5.30 p.m:] their f'mployees for domg t~e - · ,,:me kind of work was that the

raihvay :rue~ had . privilt>,-rcs \V~ich the private empwycc did not have. ~ho han. member for Brisb:;nc >aid he knPw of cases ·where there \Va)\ a di:fforPllC\l of 15~. a '\Veck between the rak", paid ~~' the Ra~lway De­partment and tho"" pa1~ by pnv;;oto em plowrs. The Minicb•r smd they must not forget that the Railway J?cpartmr·nt gave permanent employment to Its servants, and that was the reason why they got less Wa!)"es for doing the same c~ass of work whiCh a privat-e employer paid more for. If a private employer went to a wages board, and said, " I do not want you to fix the

. Mr. Coyne.]

700 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

same rate of wagC'l for my employees as rnen engPged in the sa1nc 'vork in other indu,trih, !J,,cause my friend only gives nsual employrumt., "·hile I givo permanent employment to my ci"Jlloyecs," the wages bovrd would take no notice of him what­ever, but would fix one rate for the lot. It showed tho lamene's of the excuse e;iven by the :\Iinistm·, and no court would take anv notice of it at all. A man was not pa1d becauco ho had permanent omplo;·­lllVlt, but tor the \;ark he pnformcd. It did not 1nath'r if rncn \Yere cng<Lg,- d for a few <lays or for hfi ,. years, they should be paid fnr tho work they pcdorned, and at the uno r. te that a private cmplo) er paid.

:,Ir. K B. ('. Co>mR: The railv.ay man los<"c no thu<• I'nnni:,lg about :voking for a job.

::\Ir. COYXE: Ti:· t had nothing 'lhatever t1 do 1vith it. The• H'·m f'hould h0 paid for ihe work they did. With rcg:ud to re~:ula-1 io_l 18. it avp{'ar0d fro1n ,, Lat tho f!:'cro-1 'l~ fnr Railway" said th:tt once a In .. tn jl1ined t]:,,, ra.il·~ ay ;-,PrYic,~ be bcf'arne a daYc, and !J herd not r;ot the fro \dam that. • -:1y other eiti:r.t·n in the Stato had g-ot.

Tho SP'JHE'I'ARY IOR HAIL\L\YS: \\hat about Dth{'r p 1"lblic 8:'rYanl-c; '!

:\Ir. COYKE: What about the Federal pub lie ·· n anc · c \Vhat about the public scrnmts in \YPstr: ll Auc·t mlia? Tho·.· we l'<'

L:0t donim_i tlL ir ordina1:y rights as Citizmls a·· tlwy Wd'~ 6 'nir'cl them here, and yet thoy hc~~d no:·hrng about a revolution taking nlaco in t 1 H~ ~ur,·:c:·· of the Conrnlonr\·ealih or in \Yc<t~rn A u'trali:•. Tlwro 1\'US no chanrc of tho public .,,w, .1nts abusing th<> privilc7,c. becetn " there "·ere too many opposed to them, too many bos•.c.,, who had control over tlwm \Yho would send them to th·.' right-aboui if ilwy abnscd their privi­k"·oc. He hoped the Hc·lH' would do some· thin~ to CLablo th(· raihvw~~ S<-'rYants to exercise their rights as citizens.

l>ir. GILLIES (Eacham): The Minister himself had given Y.'ry ~;ood reasons wh:~· rule 18 should b" J1<0dified. The Minister said th:rt th,, majoritY of tho men working under the r<>gnlation would not ask for am; modific:' .. tion, but surely if the majority wLr~' not concerJkrl at all ahout it, tlwu it would uo-: h::l n.ny bl'"'at it'-''Jnvcnien< ,J to alloY·-" tlH' minoritJ to <>xorc'<,J thp riJ!hts th0Y :1sk for. While it was all right that a man in nnir')l'll1, such ' ., a railwa:'-· 1nan or a polic~!­nwn, ·chou1d not interfere in political 1rattcns while ('\1 duty, still as Loon as he fini~hr rl hi' d;; · 's "·ork he hould have full ciYic a' :! politir .:I ri1)1ts, and be allowed to ''"crci>,' th•·:n. 0 "' of the fint acts of th•· I•'ed ·ral Lah0ur p · rt.y ''·as to gi.-c full lJoliti~ nJ Pncl civic> rights to th0 n1{'mbers of thP Fedrrr l 1)ublie Ecrvicc\ and there had be<>n no re,olution .·o far as thJ Federal ruhlic ;,c ·vice w •S COW •Jrned. The railway men ··hould be allowed to C''cerciso tlwi'r civic and political rights the · .. ame as the public servants did in \Yc>skrn Australia, and the Minister W'>u]cl be well advised if h·~ decided not to enforce tlH' regulation in futurr'. The :Vlini,;ter said tho regulation '"'·as (lldon1 f''lforf'f"'ld now. That was. a good reason why it should be modified. Tho ::VIinister told them that the railway nwn were allowncl to exercise i 1ce franchise-that was, by going to the ballot-box and voting.

.Surely the Jl.iinister would not suggest that thr> ra!Jway men 'hould be denied the right of gomg to the ballot-box and voting! Surdy the men in the civil service should

f.Vr. Goyn~.

not be compelled to be mere n~achine> but; thr>;· should be G !lowed to exerCise th<nr fuU citizen rights "-hC'?'l they finished their day'a \'-:..rk.

::\Ir. WIXSTAi\LEY (Quanton) was in thorough accord 1vith tho opinions expressed. by members en the Opposition sidB with i'rgard to .the public ·ervants havir:g full ciYic and political rights. Rcgulat10n 18 not only interff'n d with their civic rights, but it also intrrfercd with their 1:eligious righis in 1nany instancc'J. For instance,, a raik·av man >vonld not be allowed to give his testimony in the Salvation Army any more than h.• would bn .. dlow<cd to addrn' 3

a political mc,cti,c-. \Yith regard to wag;e> and conditio~.<;" th,·:-e \Y-crr' nutny anon1ahe-i insidP th'"' rc-.·ih, :LV RcrYit>.?. The 1nen in charge of the ptuni>ing orurines had t,) pl!mp wai ·r fro·n the' river L>r the usc of i ho loco­rnotiYf~, and in the ~naj ority of instances on the N orlhern lii·o thcv were cla- .... eel as lahourers, and p;··icl £,., ~ day.

J\Ir. KmwA~ : Have they got ccrtificato3?

Mr. WINSTA:\:LEY: They v auld hws to hold certificate , if they did that work out·~ide -.c'f the raihva\.~ service, as e·vun a boi~~-'r t>.':tcndc>~It Lad "to hold a certifiC'JJ~1 outside the sc1Tic2. The 1nen engaged at the Ip3Y. ich \Yorkshops to handle tllo crane were clae .ed as skilled labourer", and got lOs. a dav. How could it be ctrgued that the man" at the pumping station had special privilr~· s and pcrqui3itcs whr n he only got 9s. a· day on the Xorth~rn l'm,? The lllll11)1 oJ'S had to live lonely hves, aml the\· had 11othing in the sha1:c of privileges ou .. :icle their wages. The )\1inis!er ,:101.tld put them on a bpttcr foo~mg than they w:ore on at the pre,,·'JJt ti,,w. The :>1inist'r had ,-i,-en his assurance that he would inquire mto the condition of the night oflicors, l•ut thc;re wm: oth, r employees in th~. service who were entidcd to some recogmtwn and d<·c <JrvcJd better tn .:ttment th:;n the;<· roet ivPcl at the present time.

Mr. PAYNE (Jiiti71cll): Thov were told bv thB :Ctiinister that groat advi\nccs had b~en made of late years' to the men wo,:king in the Railway Dcpnrtmcnt, more particu­larly to the men on tho lower rung of lho ladder.

The SECRETARY FOR R.ULWHS: That is pPrfectly true.

::\lr. PAYNE: For the information he had received-and he had made honbt inquiries from a nnmbc;: of the"O men-the n1ajority of them W< ro no better off when receiving Ss. 6cl. a day now than they \Yero a few years ago, when thcv only got 6s. 6d .. a day, more particulady those who had a wife and family. It was not a question of Wa'l\cq, but a quhtion of living. He knew a num­l" of men who livoJ within 5 miles of Bri bane who were emplovc·d in ihc Railway Department, and if it wue not for the fact that their wives collected a littlr> money through rearing and selling fowls, they would not ha.-e enough money to enable them to rear their families. When they co~siclered the tremendous increase in the cost of living and in house rents, they could quite understand that men were better off some y•oars ago, although they recgived less wages. E,-en if a man receh·ed only 2s. a clay, and he could get better and cheaper living than he did before, he would be better off. It was a matter thAt wanted con­sidering by the Minister. With regard to regulation 18, he could not understand why

Ratlways Bill. [5 AuausT.] · Railways Bill. 791

public servants should be' debarred from enjo1~ng ~heir C?mmon natural rights. The ::V1•Imscer ror ~ailwnys made a great mouth­ful about public :,crvanb recordin~ their votes, as if he were giving them so,;ething He believed that members on the Govern: ment side th

1ou::cht tho:c· were giving a privi­

l<'ge to men ".! al!ov.ing· tlwm to walk about. The men m the .l\Iitchell district told him that, although they now rec~ived 1s. or 1s. 3d. a_ d~y more than formerly, they w3ro dis­tmct.y '"'r-.o off than they \VOH before. Thc.re was ~on:e _trem•·ndons forr·• controlling the. co4 o1. hvmg, and the Sccrdtary for Rarhvays, rf he WPnt carefully into tho que.-_:..Ion and a,eor·i ~ined hoYv~ n1uch it cost some of hiJ men to liv0, would find that, if they he"! a rea•0n .. bl" familY, it must take then; al~ their l irrn h exiJt, unl<'•·· some of th~ .anrrl;r v 21'•' working. If there "Pre six cluldn:n m the. family, it meant that, with tJ::e Wife and lumself .. tho man had to pro­Yide thrn meals for erght persons each day. That meant. if he did it for 3d. ecwh, that he would ha...-e to find 2s. per E ?al. or 6c. per day. He could not got any kind ,;f a hou>'' under 10,. or 12s. a wee\. and whore on e:trth was he to get <'othc" for th0';1 out of his 8c; .. a day, or £2 3s. per wecH<? It was practiCally a starvation wage and it mc>ant that the wiYes of suth mer~ had to . tQ to earn a fev: shi!1;ngs a week by roarmg· fowls or by domg a little modlc­work. It -.vas a disgraceful state of affairs for any public dcpn·tment.

Mr .. BERTRAM was not at all surprised t~at It '!"' not propo,od in this Bill to ?-',Ive pu~hc servants fullyolitical privi!eg-es. Ihey did not expect It from a Liberal Government ; experience in the pa t went to sl,ow that tlw c things were not done by Liberal Governments but by Labour Governments. Tho Commonwealth Govern­ment had gi· .. en th:,t to their s<:'rYants, and. tho Labour Go-.;ernm0nt' of New South \Vales and ·western Australia had followed the example. His objed. in rising was to reply to a statement that had been made by the Secret:try for Railwuys in regard to wage,. Only yesterday an instance ca1ne under_ his not;c~ which went to show how shab,bily the Goyernmrnt tr-~ctted wme of •its emp1oyees. Over on the railway whctrv0s at \Voolloongabba, he . fo!'nd men doing work for 7e-. 6d. a day, sumlar to tho.t for -...-hieh the coal worke,·s r-ot ls. 3d. per hour. That work~d out at ll~d. per hour, and thoo0 n1en, \vho "\Vf'ro ca~;nals, had no assu:tanc-e that they would get 0ight hom·c' or four hours' work on any clay. They sometimes were called out at 6 o'clock in tho mornino· and they might get two hours' work, a;ci th,,n be told to go hack in the afhrnoon They might wait >.bout all dav and the;1 go back in the afternoon and get another tw? or ~hree hour! work for which they were pard 11, d. per hour. They had no a'·· ,urance t~at they would get ninety-si': hours a fort­mght, and that was a state of affairs that shoul<l not exist. The same thing applied to the men who were v.orking cranes for the Governme~t. '!'here was a wages board award whrch "aid that a man working a crane should get £3 5s. a week, but he was t'?ld P"terday-although not bv the man him•elf-that he was receiving 'only 8s. a da~, or £2 ~s. per weE>k. The Secretary for R':rl:ways ea1d that these men got certain p:rviiegc3, but they v;.;re casuals and they did not get them. There was a time, he und<>r·,tood, when mE>n who were casuals

got 6d. per day more than the permanent men, but that did not apply to those men. He had no idea till rec'ntlv that men wero bdng paid such miserable· wages. It was work that he would not care to do for double the amonnt. He had watched them at work, and it was yery dangerous, and it surprised him the dcpa!'tmr•nt was' a blc to get men to do it at that wage.

Mr. LARCOMBI~ (Keppel): So far as Central Queensland was concerned, he could bear out what tho hon. member for Maree h.cd j,;o,t sbttecl. Th,, Government there were p~ying a 1.nuch lo·wer rate in ·wages in 1nan3 inst z nccs than VYas being paid by private employers. He considered that thc- Government should be model < mployers. Thcv should set a ,,t~ndard to which the ,,·ages bo;,rd might refer when they were making their awards. \Vhen tl10y found a. Gm·ernmcnt pa}'ing a low rate of wage•, it was y,'ry hard in.:cecl to get a wages bo_,_rd to fix a higher rate. IIe would also point out to the Government that some years ago, when the Kidston Govc-c'nment was in po:,;cr, a pro1n:3o vvas n1ade that C:\'rtain ratE:~,, of wages would be paid to Incn on constr-tetion work in the different divisions of the State.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: They are being paid.

:1-Ir. LARCOMBE : It was being paid in the North and in the South, but not in tho Cont,·al ~]iyision.

TbJ SECRETAllY FOR RAILWAYS: It is. Mr. LARC'01YlBE : He was assurrd on in­

formation from the Central district that it \Vas not.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The infor­tnation is not colTfJct.

Mr. LARCOMBE : It was not very long since tho Railwa·. Commission?r acl1nitted that the rates of \1 ages started by the Kid­stan Government were not being paid. Ho thoroughly supported tho remarks of the hon. member for Rockhampton regarding the advisability of giYing railway servants full political rights. The Secretary for Railways said he did not think it "as in the best inter0sts of the worker-. That sepmed to him a very objectionable kind of paternal­ism. Th0 men were the best judge<. 'l'hey knew that it was not in the intr wsts of Icnnv private employees that they should tak9' full advantage of th-. ir politic:<] liberty, and they were victimised for Joing so. According to <the dictum of tho 1:\ecretary for I:ailwavs, i' would bA jmt as logical to argue that they should cJ, priYc private <·mplo~'et i of their nolitical liberty. The hon. n1enrber's rmnarl~s \\ere in keeping \vith modern thought and what was being done in other States, and he hoped he \Yould move an anwndr.1Gnt f'xpreh'dng his view"'. I£ he did so, he should <:irtainly supf"1rt it.

Mr. CRIBB (Bremer): lie thought that clause 18 of the rr:;ulations would be better taken awa:c-. (Hear, hear!) The men who were working in the railway yards in Ipswich had e.xpr0.ssed an opinion to him more than once that it was infringing on their liberty. They contended that they gave eo manv hrurs to the Government, and then, having 'left the yards and gone: home, their time was their own. As to whether it would clo them, his party, any harm or ~ot, lie thought the Government would be JUSt as strong as the Labour party. Men were working there who had been there for many

M1·. Cribb.1

792 Railways BtU. ·[ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

years, who were r~Jasonably thinking men, men who had homes and families, who would like to take an act.ive ·part in politics, but they were afraid because of the regulation. Others ,aid they would rather di;; than not help their party, and consequently there was bitterness. He thought the Minister should take an· expression of opinion from the House, and ask th., Commissioner to wipe it out. It would be received with rejoicing at Ioswich. ·Mr. THEODORE: The House· has carried

resolutions twice, and the Commissioner has not acted on them.

Mr. HUXHAM (Buranda): He must s:ty that he supported most heartily the propo,n.l that public servants should have full politi. cal rights. The Chief Secretary, when speak. ing the other day, said that the proportion of public servants to the community was one in eightf'<en, and it seemed to him that that was a very strong argument in favour of the suggestion.

Mr. ADAMSON moved that the following proviso be added to the clau•1e :-

. "Provided that regulation 18 of the Staff Regulations be repealed, and that the regulations framed under this Bill when it becomes an Act be laid on the table of this House for consideration before being approved by the Governor in Council."

He was not going to make a long speech on the subjeot, but would just say again that members on that side of the House had always stood for the railway servnnts. and all public servant.s being treated as citizens in every sense of the word.

Mr. GRAYSON: So have we. Mr. ADAMSON: Then, if the hon. mem­

ber approved of treating public servants as citizens, he wonld support this amendment. There were ever so many other vexatious resolutions which were useless, and indeed foolish, and he held that the regulations

. should come before the House [7 p.m.] and be considered by the House

before they were approved by the Governor in C'onncil. The regulations were framed by the Commissioner, who fixed the wages of the railway employees as he thought fit. The railway m'ln had no wages board, and could not appPal to the Arbi­tration Court to fix their wag<"·•, in the samo way as other working men could, and it was only right that the House should have a chance of reYiewing the wages paid to tht>m, and seeing that they wr rc fair and reasonahlt! and equal to the current rates paid for labour of a similar c]ac,s in tho distl'ict in which thc;v vmrked. They had that in New South \Vales and 'in Western Australia, and the Commonwealth public servants were al<o treated as citizens. It was time that this Sht" marched in the van of progress and treated its public ser­vants in t.he way that the most progressive States and the Commonwealth treated their servants.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He was not aware whether tho Chairman proposed to accept the amendment as being in order; bnt he would point out to the hon. member for Rockhampton that clanse 18 dealt with the Commissioner's powers. Subclause (2) pro'l'ided that-

" The Commi"sioner shall appoint and employ such officers, clerks, and other employees to assist in the execution of this Act as he thinks necessary."

EMr. Cribb.

Subclause (4) said-" The Commissioner inay dismiss any,

employee; and may discontin~e the offices of or appoint other pers5ms. 111 the pla.oo of employees who are dismissed, <;>r die, or resign, or vacate office as heremafter provided."

And subclause (5) said-" The Commissioner shall pay such

salaries wages, and allowances to the cmploy~es respectively as Parliament from time to time appropriates for that purpose.,

Then clause 130 provided that-" The Commissioner may from time

to time make bv-laws with respect to l'll or any of the following matters"-

and then followed a numbm: of matters, which included the qualifications of candi· dates for admission to the service, the examination of candidates, examinations for promotion status dutiec;, and privilegea of the employe< ,, a~d so on. Those headings covered the whole of the mat.t~rs which were dealt with in the regulations of July, 1912. The objed in appointing a Commissioner f.or Railways who was resnons1b!e to Parlia­ment and onlv removable by Parliament, was to take ·the control of the railway service away from poJ.itical influ0nco. If the amencln1ent WE '3 in order and it was accepted, it would i:tke thP railway em­plo;yees away from the control of the qom­missioner and pla~e them under the direct political control of Parliament, because. the amendment said that th<> Staff RegulatiOns should be laid en the table of the House for consideration before the received the ap. proval of the Go.-ernor in Cr:uncil. He. did not think that was what Parliament desired. He thought the Parliament of this State desired that the Railway Department should he nnder the control of the Commissioner. There might be anomalies in the regula· tions, for anomalies a] ways crept in, but they amended the regulations la'Jt year .with ~he object of removing all the anomahes whiCh were removable. Objection was taken by some hon. memben to the regulation in­.oisting tlc~t no man ·hould be under a cer­uin heigh\. or che>t meJ.snremPnt, and that he should po·.c0 ; corbJin Prt"'cribcd physic'!'! aualifications. While he admitted that It did seem somewhat of an anomaly that a 1nan "\vho v,.a,, required to 'vork as an e~­gim."" or coachbuilder should be of a certai_n height, he thought hen. m.embers must admit that in a department wlnch t'mnloyed from 9,000 to 10,0;:'0 men, any n ~ul<;tion adopted should be of general applicatiOn. Every­bodY in the service had to undergo the eye­sight test.

Mr. FOLEY: There is no ner.essity for that in some branchc,, of the service.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Probably liOt, and there wa' no necessity for the height regulation in some cases ; but such r<:gulation., had to be made of general application. He did not think it advisable for the Committee to accept the amendment. As a fatter of fact. he believed it was not in order; but even ·if it was in order, it was not proposed in the proper place. Although he very strongly objected to the control of the staff beJing taken out of the hands of the Commissioner, who • was a non-political officer, and being placed in the hands. of a poUtical body such as the House wae,, yet

Railways Bill. [5 AUGUST.] Railways E1 f..

he would say that, as far as he was con­<Jerned, he did not think it mattered one bit whether staff regulation 18 was included in the regulations or not. The unwritten rule of the department was that, as long as men did not appear in uniform, it did not matter whether they took part in politics or not.

0PPOSITIOX MEc1BERS : Oh, oh !

The SECRET.\RY FOR RAILW_\YS: He thought members would agree with him that it was not advisable for public servants, whether employed in the Railway Depart­!nent o.r. any other department, to take part Ill . p<;>htwal matters when the.) "ere in unuorm.

An OPPOSITION ::YlEMBER: No one su"gests that they should. 0

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: 'Vel!, he had stttted distinctly that the un­written rule of the department was that !here slw.uld be no interference with the men 1f they d1d not take part in political matters when in uniform.

Mr. BOWMAN: There was interference at the last State election.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL\VAYS: ~here was one case at the le,st Stat-e election.

Mr. BowMAN: Yes, young \Velsby.

The. SECRETARY FOR RAIL,VAYS: Y_es, h1~ nar;;e was WeLby. Welsby was told <l.Istmcby,. Now, don't do it," and he ~Imply said, " I propose to do it whpther it IS ag·ainst the regulations or not." "While the ~<'gt:!ation was .t~ere, if a man put him­self m direct oppositiOn to the Commissioner or his supC'rior officer and to the reo-ula­tions, of conrse, some action had to be t:ken. It ha:f been b>id that railwa0 men in Ipswich and m. the Roma Street yards were paid Yt;ry highly to do political work for the Liberal partv. He did not think that anv 'Of!icial of the Railway Department would dare to let any member of. the ~taff go out and do wo;k other .than his railway work, li!'-d pay I~Im full hme, and if any official di~ allow It he should he di,misscd at onc,,·. With l"(''pect to regulation 18, he would ~e]Wat that. so far as he was concern,,•d he v;;ould just as .•<oon see it opt of the regula­hone, but he could not ar,cept the amend­ment, lwcause he did not think it was in order. If the Committee decided that rc"U­lvtion 18 should not be permitted to remain, he would ask the CommissionPr whether it could not be dclet!'d.

Mr. COYliE: Trust to him whethf'r it is or not.

The SECRET AllY FOR RAIL\VAYS: He thought, if he gaYe his word to the Houst,, it ·wns gcner,-lly taken.

Mr. KIRV,'A!\: \Ve do net say that but he ll('()d not follow your advice. ' '

'I'he SECHE'I'ARY FOR RAIL\VAYS: Tl;es.e regulations wore i",ued by the Com­InH~~noner, under an order fron1 the Exe<'·l­tive .Council, for the rf'gulatiun of the railway PerviCe of the State. He would ask the Com­missioner to delete rule 18 for the reason that he would per,sonally rather see it out of the regulations. ·

Mr. THEODORE : The hon. gentleman had raised the objection that the amendment was proposed in the wrong place.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Not in .oruer.

Mr. THEODORE : After reading clalliie 4, one could come to no other conclusion that the exception that the han. member for Hockhampton desired must be moved here, as subclau~e (iv.) provid<'d that all rules and regulations and by-laws in force shou~d con­tinue in force. The hon. gentleman said that if the Committee expressed a dc·'sire that regulation 18 should be repealed, he would confer with the Commissioner with a view to having it abolished; but the han. gentle­man, in common with other hon. members, only three y<,a.rs ago expressed a desire to have this regulation repealed, and nothing had happened. The House practically unani­mously carried a resolution for the repeal of regulation 18 in 1910.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: We modified it very much.

Mr. THEODORE: Nevertheless, the same infringement of ordinary citizenship rights was exercised against the railway employees, and the hon. member for Rockhampton objected to any limitation of the civi~ and political right of employees of the railway or any other service. On two separate occa­sions-in 1904 and 1910-the Assembly had carried a resolution in favour of repealing regulation 18, and the Commissioner for Railwavs had not acted on that expressiOn of opinion. Therefore, he thought that han. members would not follow tho sugge~tion of the Minister, but would see that an amend­ment was imcrted in the Bill limiting the power of th<o Commissioner in that respect. 'I'he hon. gentleman had said something about his position in not being able to accept, undC'r any circumstances, the latter part of the amendment, in reference to the right of Parliament to review regulation5 made by the Commissioner.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Because you give tlw Commission.-,r full power under two Acts.

Mr. THEODORI<; : Quite so. They gave the Commissioner full powor under this Bill, but even so, the Commissioner had not full power to make rpgulations and 31pply them himself. 'rhov had to be submitted under this Bill for tho approval of the Governor in Council.

The SECRETARY FOR R.o\lf,W.\YS: That is so.

Mr. THEODORE: Then, if the han. gen­tleman was right in the contention that there should be no int!'rference with the Commis· sion0r. it \vue;; uot right that. ihe Exeuutive Counc.il should review regulations which the Commis~ioncr drew up. If the Executive Crqncil had ;he right, this HousP should havo a. gr{\ate1· right, bt:l~<-tuse it was a .m~Jre repre­sentative bodv. Clause 130 provided ohat no bv-law ohot~ld have effect until it had met v, ith' the annroval of the Executive Council, and was l)~bbhed in the " Gazette," and in reg·ard to 0ertain by-laws, until it had ap],£anod by advertisement in the " Gazette" for a certain number of days, clearly show­ing that in that rt"'pect the power of the Commi"sioner was limited. The han. mem­ber for Rockhampton merely desired that all regulations should be tabled in the House for the review of han. members.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAn, WAYS: All regula­tions under all Bills or Acts of Parliament have the approval of the Ex••cutive Council.

Mr. THEODORE: Practically all regula­tions were tabled in the House for the review of members, as parliamentary papers, and

M·r. Theodore.]

794 Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

subsequently had the review of han. m"m­bers, and any han. member _might raise objec­tion to them. and that was all the han. mem­ber for Hm\hampton wanted. \Vhew th•• Commissio:>er, who was endowed with very great pawN under this Bill, framed a regu­lation which in any way might limit the political or civie rights of ~:.embers of the service, han. members should have the right to criticise that regulation. Th:1t was a per­fectly fair limitation of the Commi<;ioner's power, and •ms not interfering in tlw practi­cal nlanhgmu;,nt of the railwav-only lin1iting tho pOWl:-"'1:' of tlF~ f1mn1nisioncr over his em­plo} ws in rco:a:d to matters th.1t did not conc""n s0rvic, in the Rnilw<Ly DJ'lpartmPnt. Thov did not dce<ire to intcrfc·re .vith the Coni:ndb· ioncr's n1nnager~:cnt of the railway, or the otlwr r >wer,; conL•rred upon him.

Tho SECRE1'\LY FOR RAIL\' AYS: Th< se re •. ·u­lations aro the nmnagomr·1t of th~ railways.

3-fr. THF.ODORE: Ye b1.t th0r<> were Cf•r\,-~in re~uh~·:ioll: ·,1 thC' regulations dr;t-;vn np by Hk Conuni·-~ion;~r ~""·~1ich in no sense aff,_ (+~d thf• n anag-cn1Pnt of the railways, hut affoc: :-d th0 individual· employd by the Conunn'nonL·L Ilo\Y eou1d tho regulation limitin<; th. · action of <·mployee' ~:lking part in politic:d Inatt+·rs afft'{'t the nlanagP­mcnt of tho railway 9 He hovcd tlw amend­m<'nt would bo c·arried.

The SECR:F:T \RY FOR PrBLW IN­STRUCTI0:\1: While not que,tioning the eomcientiou;; fcPl\ne: which had prompted the hcv1. r;.v·n1ber "\Yho haJ 1novcd this .amen<ln1Pnt, lJ~' thought it war-; in the ·wront:, place. ('hen"' 4 )no··.-i<i•d simply 'or the f~D ',·ing of th ... ~ ru1t..: and regulation~ which now exi ~tt-~d .. until ibe-y "\Yl're altc~rr·J by the authorih YCSIPd in the Cmnnjs.:;ioner b' this Bill Tl· Minister had droadv tol(l the II OUR<< t hd lw ncr>'mMlly thougl1t that regul>tion 18 m;cd1t b" deleted. He agreed with him tl. 1t it might be d,loted without Hn: both0r ·at all. bnt tho position \Yas this: Th., am('odrnnnt movPd bv the hou. member for Rockhampton rcnlh- 'did not nwan anY-thing. It road- · "

"ProYided th:At r{'.r;ulatiou 18 of th~ fltaff R(o-ulatic'" lc.c l'"J'>:J]od, and that thn r·:·gul ,tiono framed on thiJ Bill when it becomes an Act bP laid on th<> table of thi' Hous~ fr:· con,idontion before being n pproved bv tlw Go\-ernor in Corn1eil." L

The ::\F.CHET<\HY FO, R\ILW.\Yii: That is. that it shou;J ],,. ·· 1hnittcd to a political body. •

The SECRET_\RY FOR Pl.~BLIC IN­RTHGCI'ION: .\s fnr a iw < mlJ ~ather froPl th'l wordin:;, wh; t th< hon. member int••nJnd to move >,;::.' to the dJ'ect that the regulation·,,_, after being ap~>roYed by t.11n

Goven•.Jr in Cmn:il, ,hould be laid on the tablo of the 1-Io~- r- for a C'!'.c'tain tirn(', in or~c!· that tho House might ! 1lfn pa,,;; an op1n1on for or again::l thmn.

Mr. c\DA'!ROK: ::\o, '> 'on: being sub­mitted.

The SECHETARY FOH rrBLIC IN­STHTCTION: If it \H>rc in that way, it would be unconstitutional-it would simply be interposing the opinion o£ members ·of Pa.rliainf•nt to get an opinion, perhaps, foisted on the Cornmi,,ioner, who \\'US abso­lutely in charge of a cnrtajn bl!'·ln<'SS. \Vhat would h~:O!Wn with re.o-ard to this proviso if the Hous0 were not sitting 1 \Vhen the ,\ct came into opernt.ion these

[Jfr. Theodore.

regulations '"auld be laid on the table for con,ideration before being approved b.v th,, Governor in Council. If the CommiF~,ionor wanted to pass a r<'gulation 1,vh ·n tho J:Iou~"' was not in sesc·ion, was he to be compelled to wait six months nntil the House met again, and the fnrtlPr time after it was lo id on tho tahle of thQ House for con­sideration? He thought this was not the place for the amendmf'nt. The pla~o for such an amcndm;mt in this consolidation Bill \Y:"!R in clause 1~0, where pu\vcrs were given to make bv-la»a and n•gulations. By clauer, 131 the bv-laws had to b., submitted. as it \Va:~.' to thO Governor in Council. !-IP 1\'0U;d point out ihat the> hon. mnnber had a safeguard-he could ha•:e his ronfc'·"nc • "-ith the ConnniRsionnr about the regula­tions and thov could thPn b" submitt<>d to tho bov.Prnor'" in Cou'lcil anel de-dt with. He Mk,,d thr hon. nwmbcr ·~ con;iclor ,. hethcr it would not be wi'·r· to withdraw the a:nrndment, a•1d l•'OYe it again, if h thought fit. aft·<r clause 130, adding a pro­vi•.') 'that even if r: guhtion 18 w,rs in fore" it ::hould be wiped ont. Tho am,,ndmDnt w•s movcJ hero prartico<lly on the last d:.::Jso of a. tYing- proYi>Jion, and hP J:.ad neY-c-r vet known of an -arnendmrnt be1ng 1novcd .. on 1:1 m-ere saving clan:,.}, the rea~"')H for which was to keep the law as it stood.

Mr. ADAMSO~: It was wonderful how differently lawyers looked at things to ordi­nary people. This amendment ,,.,s dr:;twn on tho spur of the morm;oct; the·· obnoxwue rt'!mlation~ had been rcfNrTn to, and they hojJCd to bring them up fo,· discussion, and tb\~n it wa.J sugg0"'tad thLy 1nigh~ tret a ?lro­,-',o in ·alon[; the lines ho had su;;:ge·:ted. Tl1PV did not mind whcthoor tho nrovi:·o was put · in here or in clause 130. fie did not doubt the word of the Minister, and if h<e was prepar<>d to say he would ine'.'rt this in dans:• 130 he was prq,ared to wrthdraw th:. c;mendmcnt.

Thr SECRETARY FOR Rm,wAYS: I did not say that. I haYe given y0u my a;;,surance about rule 18 already.

Mr. ADA:\ISO::\': Did he undcr·,tand that the I\Iinist0r would insert a cbusc.rcpealing rule 18?

The SEC:·ETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I have said I y,,ill confN wi:h tho Commi.,ioncr with a ,-icw to deleting it.

:11r. ADA::V1SON: It seemed to him that they ''auld ju<t leave it in the hands of tho Commissioner to do what he liked. Tha Minister hud raic,,d the point that they wanted to interfere ,,-ith the Com:nis"ion,•r and brine: political influence to b<>ar in the matter of having regulations /.ai.d on the table. \Yhy bring in a Bill at all ? Why not let the Commie,ioner frame his own Bills, and n<'Yer consult the House in rela­tion to any matters at all? :Many matters of detail were of far mort' imporhnce in practi­cal workinz than some of the great prin­ciples of the Bill, and if they Wf're not t.o have anything to say in regard to thosa

details, why bother with the prin­[7.30 p.m.] ciples at all? Aprarently mem-

bers of Parliament were not allowed to have any say in an:vthino: and were not allowed to criticise any Railway Bill at all. All they could do was to criticisil railway matters on the F:;;tirnates, when they could not movv any r•·solntion and co:!ld not get anything effective ·done. They had just to take­the Hon. the Minist0r's promise. Hl' quite

Railways Bill. [5 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 79&

believed that the Railway Commissioner was an honourable man so far as these matters were concerned, hut he did not think he was the only man who should have tho right to say what should be done in regard to the m'lnagement of the railways. He thought that Parliament had a right to criticise Bills and regulations too. If the Minister was prepared to say that they could get regula­tion 18 repcnk,l and put it in th;' Bill, he would accept his assurance.

Tho SECilETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Yo can do it without putting it in the Bill.

Mr. ADAMSOK : He did not like to re­fl<~'t on the hcmour of tho Mini,ter, but he would like 'umething put in the Bill to compel tl1e Rai!cc·ay Commi,•.ien.··J' to do what the House wiohed him to do. In regard to tho arnendment being in the 'vrong p~ace, he ,,·ould have consulted the Par:iamentary Draft•m"n, Lut at the time hP wanted him he was not available.

Mr. PAYNE understood from the ::\1inistor for Education that part of tho amendment was in order, but the latter part '\ euld comD in better after clause 130. He quih agre<er( that the Cmnmic:,lon<" for H.ailwa• s was an honour,"bh man; but \Yhy should tl;ey s>..ultify the House? Tho House had certain rights, an:l it was 0010 of the rights of the House to so<> that the regulation was delet,;d, and so stated in the clause of the Bill. It "auld not be any offence to the Minichw or the Commissioner to have it inserted in the Bill. Members of Parliament were elected 1.>y their electors, and they bad a right to frame their Bills in their own way. He hopPd the hon. member for Rockhamnton would alter his amendment to include regula­tion 18 in clause 4, and then they \\auld sec if they could get that 1egulation deleted. They were told some years ago that some­thing wa' going to be done \cith regulation 18, IJut it was never .clone, and now they wanted to serJ it in the Bill.

Mr. GRAN'r (Fitzroy) : A fair amount of time hfld been wasbed becauc0 both sides of the lion,,o arrived at the same conelusion wiLl regard to .regulation 18. The Minister said he would consult with the Co:mnissioner ,,-ith regard to its rcpNtl, and that was <>quivalcnt to he.ving it done. The hon. mrmbcr for Rodrhampton had \\·eighted his amendiH:nt with other material which m< cn­lJers on the Gov(C :mnent side mir.:ht not feel inclinc,l to support, althoug·h tl>·"·Y would follow him so far as th'l repeal of re;:;ulation 18 was cuncorncd. The hon. member fo1· Rockhampton wanted a provision in·ert"d whereby every regulation framed by the Co.mnissionm hiwuld be placul on the table of the Hou ·~ and approvrd by the House. That wa.; going too far. Parlianwnt dok­~·at9d to :\finis< c ,., the duty of carrying on the o-Y?Cutivc bu:-:-iness of tllt' Etate, and Parliament always 1had control 'ov.or :its

Minis:ers. They cc,dd discuss tho EstimateR and t~1ev could cut down the Mini,ters' Estimates and turn them out.

)/[r. BowMA).; : That is practicalh- impos-5ihk- und<•r party hUYernnl{'nt.

- Mr. GRANT: In sticking to the amend­mrnt as framed, the hon. member for Rock­hamptvn was likely to lose the substance for the shadow, because there were some on the Government side who wonld support hin'l so far as the repeal of .regulation 18 was concernPd. The hon. member for Reckhamp-

ton wanted to have all regulations approved by the Honse, which meant having a full­drrss debate on every regulation la1d on tho table. Parliament had full power over the :\linistc1s and could UL a! with tL •m ·when their Estin1ates came on.

11r. :MURPHY: You cannot increa"' expen­diture on the Estimates.

Mr. GRANT: No; but they could cut them down, and he had seen it done. .In somD cases perhaps it would have been w1so if they had ha·cl a discussion on the regul<:-­tions, such as tho:.e J<,,ued b:. the Hydrctulw Enrrineer's Denartm<,:It with regard to a"rt~·,ian bores. ·The hon. member for Rock­hampton woul<l , , -.;ell advi,,"d if he ace: n:ed the 11inisic:r's aeour tnce that regu­lati,;n 18 woul<l Le delob,d, as he would then ha' ·• a fairly unanimous House with him.

Mr. HuXTER: But ·ne has not got that as~1u·ance.

::'.'lr. GRANT: The hon. member would not get t!w ;,upport of the majority of the Hou'n if he stuck to his amendment that Pverv re:rulation should l:G approYed of by thC' 'Hou~e.

Tho CHAIR:UAJ'\: I think the han. mem­ber for Rockhampton would be well advised if he withdre\1 this amendment. .\s it is, it will only lead to manv complications; but if he y, it!; draws it now- and waits until we roach clamo 130, he will bt able to bring in tho amendment ho desirr '· I do not rul<> hj9 aincmchn~?nt out of order~ u.s I would not like to do that. but I think hP would be "ell advised if he withdrew it for the timo being.

Mr. FIIIELL Y (Pa<l<Z::~gton) reminded the Chairn:an that he had risen twice to speak on the amendment, but he uould not manago to c"Jch the ('h.cirman's eye on either ocoa­,ion, althou:~h other hon. member, had seen him ri>e in his place. He thought the anrencl­lllent "\Vas an eminently proper one.

The CHAIRMAN: I did not quite catch \Yhat the hon. m-"mber '"lid. Does the hon. member sav that I did not give him a proper opportunit}· to address the House 9

Mr. FIHELJ,Y: I simply pointed out that l ros:l twice but I could not <'~tch your eye, aud I wish to ,.,peak to this an1endn1ent.

:&Ir. MuRPHY: I han' often risen twenty tinc:·s and could not got a chance to speak.

::\1r. FIHELLY considen.-rl that the amend­nwnt was an eminently proper one at the present time. IIo had listened patiently to the ar1cuments of the otlvr side, and also to tho remarl,s of tln Ministrr. He did not think the ::\finis'ccr for Railways had be<_'Il quito f~anl\: with the, .H;ouqe. ~he Inere

1 col­

laburatlon of the lVIunster w1th the Com­mi·3ioner for RaJways was not sullicient ~or p., rliament, Parliament was an authonty over thf' Railway Commissioner, and if the J.1inister for Ralhdtys exprc~sed a wish, or u,rvr· instruction to the Commissioner that ho ·was to carry out instructions received from the House. then no pow or could stop him from carrying them out. That was the whol~~ question.

l\1r. :\IuRPHY: The Commissioner n'light resign.

Mr. FIHELL Y : It woula perhaps be a good thing for tho State if the Comr.nis­sioner and some of his officers did res1gn. Tlwy had had a number of pleasant little

Mr. Fihelly.)

'79G Ra·itways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

~ophistries from the hon. member for Fitz­roy, who told th.em that the proposed amend­ment was so weighted that it was not likely to get support from members on the Govern­men~ side pf the House. That was ,.;1ere casurstry. Tney '':"ante~ the amendment agreed to by the Committee m the form in which It :vas pres;'nted. They wanted the ~Ylinister to mstruct the Commissioner to give everv employe~ . in the Railway Department th~ same pnnlegcs and the same power that he would have if the railwe.ys were run pri­vately by a private syndicate. In order to illustrate tho Commissio wc's attitude on the matter of regulation 18, he pointed out that a person named \Velsby was told that he should not take the platform on a cer­tain occasion. The Minister hinted that n. person who was in uniform should not be allowed to take part in public meetings.

The SECRET \cRY FOR RAILWAYS: I said it. I .did not hint it, or insinuate it.

Mr. FIHELL Y: Then he would like. to know from the Minister if 'Yelsbv was in uniform? No, he was not. in uniform, yet he was S'lcked. \Vhat reliance, tlwrdore, could the Committee place on certain­well, comprehensive statements made bv the Minister for Hail ways? They would be' only too happy if the Minister would toll them if he was going to give his emnloyees full

·ci':ic power; ~ut, i.f the ~li1~ister \vas n:terely go~ng to. \ubnnt 111s t:~lggc_,ho1_:S to a highly­paid dhcial, whose mteresh might not be the saT!W a3 those of his mnployees because that hif l,_ ~,Hi ria~ lllUSt necet-t-,a;ily have vested mterc ,t.,, It ''as not enough. The P?Sition was peculiar from every point of VIew. He brought to the notice of the Mini·.,ter the resolution that was carried previou.•Jy in the Hom••. That resolution was absolutely ignot2d by the Commissioner. The Commiesioner knew the wishes of Par­liament, and he had powm· in do what that resolution asked hin1 to do. and ye,t hr· did not do it. He reminded ·the M!nister for Railways that r!'guhtions cuuld be nnde, which, although they complied with the letter of ihe Act, ere quite c.mtrary to the spirit of the .Act. The Secretary for Edu­c<ttion v.ould admit that they could easily frame regulatiune, which "·ere contrary to the spirit of the \ct.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I'&STRUCTION : I do not agree with that at alL

Mr .. FII~ELL Y: He was ver:-;· glad to heae that mterJ< bon from the 1finistr,, because it only made his (Mr. l<'ihell:v's) contention all the more act urate. (L~ughtf'r.) He reminded the :\linist!'r that the State had thirty u.iHions of :rron0y inwsted in rail­wayRJ. while

1 t~e p>:ivate lines ha? only a

few LllOUS".tnas ElVt>tod, yet the p:tn-ate svn­<licat\:S, which th0 Govorn1nent worshipp~d, gave each of their emnlovecs full ch-ic rights, and the Labour partv" asked for the san1e proyision for the cin.Pioyc0s engaged <>n the railways in which the Stahl had £30,000,0C!J invested.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS thought the han. member for Rockhampton wo:rld agr<;e that this was not the right place to msert his amendment. He would give the han. member this assurance-that to-morrow morning he would confer with the RailwaY Commissioner and see if an Order in Council -could not be issued deleting regulation 18.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS:

~They were not likely to reach clause 130

[Mr. Fihelly

to-night, as they had been nearly two hours on clause 4, but when thev reached clause 130 the hon. member could· again propose his amendment. He could not give the assurance that •it would be inserted in clause 130, but he would giYe the assurance he had stated with re,:;ard to rule 18.

Mr. ADAMSON: He had accomplished his purpo.>e in moving the amendment. Of course, he would like to move it at the right place, but as tho Minister was prr_·pared to do what he had ~aid he would, he was pre­pared to withdrcnv his amendment. But, if nece,o;;;uy, he "·ould move it on claus~ 130.

Am'"'dment, b0 ]cz, ,-e, withdrawn.

Mr. KIR\\"A:1\ thought it was just as well that the Commissioner should know the feeling of the House with regard to certain matters. He was rather astounded to hear the han. member for Queenton sa2 that men >ver<' doing the work of c0rtificated engine­drivers, and were clas,,pcl as labourers, and paid .a;; such. He did not think the House would ag1"" with that, so for ao the wages were concerned. On the other hand, he did no1' think it was a wise thing for the Government io bo permitt<?d to unploy in­compct .. nt m<cn when they forced private ]H!rsom to employ fullv qualified men. Regarding the w;,ges paid in tho depart­nlent [h unnpared ·with those raid outside, the hon. membu· for J'vhree had shown that men on the Railway vYharf at South Bris­bane weru paid lHcL per hour for the same work for doing what pri•·ate employees got 1s. 3d. per hour. If th:tt was so, men in the GovernnHmt mnploy were getting £2 5s. per ,, . ._,ek, whereas private employees were paid .£3 12:;. D~r week. That was a difference ,,·hicl1 should not exi"t. Ther<J was another matter to which lw would like to call the attention of the Minister, who could ask the Con1missioncr if it were corn,ct Rule 17 rnovided that employees would not be, unless in special instances, and then only by autho­rity of th" Cor.Imi.ogioner, allowed to engage in any employment outside their office.

The SECI!f,1'ARY FOR RAILWAYS: The Com­missioner i" barred. too.

Mr. KIR\YAN: That was 'O, but " largc• secHen of mnployees did !lot g€t the sam'~ fialar~,7 as th~.: Conunissioner got. 'rhe point to \\Thich h:::· 'ivj,.hod to dr,nv attention v1ag tha~ h · v::~.· inforn1e<l th;,~t if a r,:iilv1av cnrplcj en in his spare tinu: 1n.1·+ any paT­ticular invt :ltior::_, nd subnli~ tf- d it to the ConYni.3;1onr>:~, b:._· \vas n -Ti:ed by one of tht' offic£>'S at whnt pcll'ticular time he made it, and if he said jn his spare timr. he v.raB dealt 'Yith under the regulation. Pc•rsonally, he could Lardly credit it, bui he "as in­formed that it w;;,s so.

The SEm:srARY FOR R_m,,;AY~: Why, that kind of thing is foc.icred by thr dr•partment.

Mr. KIR\YAX: He was led to believe that the Commissioner had nafd a bonus to an employee in the railway- ••orkshops, but he did not know whether that man had done the work in his sparz, tir.re or in the Com­Inh"ioner's time. If the 1-iinistr·~ aRsured the House that such a state of things did not exist, it would 'atisfy those individuals. He hoped that the Minister and the Cabinet, whf.'n the Estimates were being considered, would see that the Government paid the same rate as WaS paid by priYate employeFS for similar services.

(5 AUGUST.] Rail-ways Bill. 797:

Mr. MAY (Flinders) could bear out the litatement th:tt thoro \\ere officers who were in the position of drivers who were not gLt­ting tho same rate of Wclg''S as they would get if they were driving, say, for a mining com pan). The Udlal rate in his electorate was fairly high, but when the men went into the Railwuy Department they were put down to a very low rate. The case he lud in his mind's rye was one in the Cloncurry district-he would not give the no,nw of the man or in which particular part of it he was, because it might result in his being victimised. He was working for very long hours, he had no decent habitation to go to, and he was driving a boiler, which, if it were undn the Factoric; and Shops Act, or under the Mar·hinery and Scaffolding Act, would be cm1dernned. He trusted the Go­vernment \Yould see to the matter.

Mr. GILDAY (Ithaca) 's•as given to under­wtand that so ao three year, ago it \VG'; a wish of a majority of that Hou •o th"t rule 18 should be o l J!ished. Now, undf' :· tho Rail ways Act, all these matters had to be approved of by the Govoruor in Council. If that were so, ho did not blam<J the Ccllnmis­sioncr; he threw the responsibility on tho Executive Council. ,\nd it was hardly ~uffici,-mt a-~surancd that ha.d bt,~n given at the preq0nt tiP1i:- 1 notwithshtndiL~' the fact that th,, Secrcbry for Railways would confe;· with the Commi' 'ioner and would v,ce what coul<l be done. It was :t burninil' qur"tion at the pre,,Dnt time with the railway em­ploy<'es--tbat they should h:tvo tho same privileges as m ,.,,l wc-rking for priYate com­pani<•'l or firms. During last 'ession he asked a question with reference to a person, o! tho n:unu of W elsby, who had been dis­missed for participating in a political mp,-,t­ing. During the last election, in the Oxley el.rC'torate, i here was a puLlic servant on the Liberal committ'e who worked rivht through th., election. l-Ie wa< not going to say that the Go, 'Tnment or any particular· party was recpomible, but if it '>YaB good for one individual to pnrticip.:tie in an ~--lection, tho other individual ,c,hou!d have tho ;c:me right. He did not b'lliove i> p:,-b!ic ?orvants taking part in politic,,] matters in their working hours, but one,_, th"Y left the yoke they should be free citizens. Thu0 was anoth,,r questi0'1-with rF,.ard t'J wages. They had the other day pas<cd an Act compelling sugnr-growers ICJ pay 8s. PP< day. lf they had a rig.ht to do that, why had tlwv not a righL t'> say th<' Gove~nment omp1ovces shoald got c'lrbin romuner:ttion? They should have a perfrct. ri.;;ht to lay down a mini;:nur:1 belo-w whir'h railvlaJ onp1oyees shoul'l net W'Hk. TlH_-y had set up W"13"PS boar(h, and con1pdlcd employer-, i-,', oth'-r calling!'J tn -;ive their employDe{ crriain lwncfits, but 'vhr-n they lllcntio"'-'led t~1at

nUt:''·"" to th Goy ern-> ·qc.t, the,,­[£: p.l.t:.] said: "~S~ou r~~rdl not Jo t1i2t;

"'" shall ont"ust 'hat to the Com­mission~r." Dissatirfactio-1 ( zisted, :1Ld he thought the rcprc·r·ntatives of the ;uonlo •hould have somdhi"g to Fay in rcc~ifymg grievance·,:, Thev knew th?t thl're was a cia"'"' latPr on under which railway em­ployeeq might be put in the same category as private employees h get overtime for any work in cxress of eight hours a day.

The CHAIRMAN: Order !

Mr. GILDAY: He thought that hon. li1embers should see that railway employees got a 5pecial rate for overtime. They had

been told times out of number that under their r0gulations they were working forty­eight hours a week.

'I'he SI'CRETARY FOR RAILWA<S: Ninety-six hours a fortnight.

Mr. GILDAY: If they worked lZO hours one fortnight and only eighty hours the next fortnight, thBy still got the ordinary pay, and did not receive overtime rate.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: If they work more than ninety-six hours in a fortnight, they are paid at the rate of time and a· quarter.

Mr. •GILDAY: He was informed that if, in the followino- week, they worked a lee"er number of hou~s than ninety-six, the excess time which they worked in the previous fort­night was deducted from the. time for th~t fortnight and added to the t1m.e worked m

, the fortnigi1t when they put m less than ninety-Pix hours.

The SFCREl'ARY FOR RAILWAYS: No, no!

Mr. GILDAY: That was th,, impression which had been made on his mind, but he w<.s glad to }>,r,ar that it was not correct. He hoped that the Minister would induce the Commi& ,iolH;r to wipe ont r0gulation 18.

Illr. FHIELL Y thought the Commissioner had do<tlt veery harshly with the men who 1Yent out on ::.trike. 'The tramway 1nen \;o;ho went out on strike had the option of going back to thnir old positions at the old rates of pa v and ,c :J had tb' wharf lumpors, butcJc,8,'s, and otb o:,·s who too!t part in tl:at strike. The Minister had g1von a spem.fic promi·-o 1r1at th'3 railwa,v men would be reu;­siated in their old positions and at their old salari13s.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I said they would be put back as soon as possible.

Mr. FIHELL Y : The hon. gentleman had st:lted distinctly that they would be put back at the first opportunity, and yet ;not one .man receiving a w.tge of over 8s. per <1av had been reappointed to his old position. he thought that the present time "as opportune to got a promise from the Mini>'ter tha~ he w~uld p~t them bndk in their old pos1t10ns unmed!­ately. They h,-,,d suffered suffici~nt p~~ish­ment, having now been out of their pos1t10ns for more than a year, and he wag sorry that both tiP Minister and Commissioner were RO stony-hearted in the matter that they refused to reimtatn thos,,, employ!les. He. hoc,cd that the· Minist0r would m:tke some sta:-te1nent a:1 to his intention regurding this matter.

Mr. PAYNE : If the Minister said that the men who w•~nt out on strike at•d then wont back to worl' were put on their old mark e"s "OOn as pci',sible, he told the Oom­n1i::' ~} Fome: \ ,_ing that was not cotrect. I-~o knew of three men, one of whom had been m the department for fifteen years, another fot• fourteen years, and tho third for about twelYa years, m:cl on thOJir going back to work after the strike they rcc,,,ived ls. a day less tiu:n men who h1.d been in the country only SIX months and who were put over their heads. That was very hard on a man who h~d .been fifteen y<'ars in the service, even admittmg­and ho did not admit it-that the man had mado a mistake. The result was that those men stayed nine months in the railway f'!er­vice and then left. As a matter of faot, the 'department victimised those men and treated them worse than dogs. It would·

Mr. Payne.]

798 Railv.-'a!JB Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railu·ays Bill.

have been very much more manly for the Minister for Haiiways and the Cabinet to have told the House that a" those men had gone out on strike·, they would not have them any more, than to have promised that they would be put back in their old positions and to have failed to keep that promise.

Mr. KIR\VAN: Some two vears ago the ·Commissioner saw fit to issue what he called a "clean sheet "-that was to sav, that every employee, no matter what his offences might havE' been previously, start,·d with a dean sheet; but he was told that when an em­ployee got into trouble, he had not got a cletm sheet, hut that all his past record was dug up and ucod against him.

The SEORr'T'·RY FOR RAILWAYS: That is libso­lutely wrong.

l'ilr. KIR\VAK: He was g·lad to have that as~ .. r~t.ncv. \Vhl n he \\as told of this, he Mid he did not \.Jelicvu it, but the persons who told him said they were quitn prepared to n1ontion .a, t',-tSC in 'vhich an official was ;:uspended fer the b,eac h of a certain reg'llation, nnJ that when that occurrrd the department went back to a mistake he had commiEed some eight year" pr.,viou1ly. I{owcvcr, h0 simply broug,ht the matter for­ward 8) that if :here was nothing in it they might have ::he truth hom the Minister.

Mr. FIHEIT~Y wae surprised that the Mini, ter did not vouchs::tfc an answer to tho statemeds m,do bv himself and the hon. member for :J,Iitche'Il, a_: the n1atwr was of sufficient importanc<' to deHrve some reply.

The SECR\TGY FOR RAILvc-AYS: I thought you \\-ere bringing· it under rny notice.

Mr. FIHLLLY: He had broug·ht it nud,or the han. genCen1 >n's notic0 in order to get ~orne ,,tatcm<mt from him that e. ,,ning. The pro1.ai )£' E1ade b::· the J\1ir.ister last year \)\'"as not carried out, :md, unfurtunatdy, tho m<'n who went out on ;,trike wer<J at the m•rcy of the Commi;,>,,ioner and of the P' rmanent ·officials under him, and not one r:1an getting more than 8s. a day was put back in his position at the ;:,~me rde of pay a' h: for­merly received. No other strikers in Bris­bane, a3 br a:, h0 knew, W<Jre reduced in wages wh·cn they return"d to work, and it was to be r· p·et'ed that the Government •hould make a point of vindictively treating­the few rctilway mployet', who went out on 11trike at that t'mr. He hoped that they would get from the Minister that evening a pn:nise tht\t thc··e men ,,-odd be at once nut 1 'de inh il"'i.r old pcsitions at their old sr_larif>:;. I.~::-st se~('ion he poin+pd out that vnc nLLn ~-vith a farnily Df ninf· children, the . ., ld 'St of who: 1 v. as «bout twelvP, was asked to live and educate his family on 7s. a da::- _ How were t~cy going to get good citi::P.ns undp.r FU('h Cirrun1f"tancf';3?

The CHAIRMAN: Orler ! The han. mem-1,cr is getting away from the question befoTe i;},e Cu:;"mittee in going into these details.

TVf1. FIHELL Y: He \vas just poin+ing out the <Yay in which the Commi'<ioner governed hi· 'e;-urtment, "nd giving Pasons why the ll,'l:ic i··ter should give ttem some statement w'th r<·g:Jrd h tho matter. The action of t.he •'epartment wa.s srandalous. People like Mr. Badgn, who caused the strike, still receoved their old nlaries, one! there was no rea:'m why the railway employees should not; get a f.:ir deal and he reinstated in their old position at their old salaries.

f.Mr. Payne.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The hon. member for Mitchell said it would h.tve been very much bet1.•r if the Govern­ment had said to the strikers, "Get away, and don't come b.·wk," and the hon. mem­ber for Paddington desir<Xt that they should be reinetated in their old posit.ions. It was thercforn very difficult to deJJJ with the matt.r in a way that vould satisfy both.thoL•e hon. mrmbt rs. T!te matter was pr,evwusly ihn,hect out <1lmost to the dre;ss, and it was thoroughly under,,tood by members that the men "' ho went out on s! rike had left thmr employmo,·nt, and that if thBy •:·ent bacl~ ~hey would go back under eeTtam C•Jnditrons. \'i'hen the matter ;,-as discussed last year, he had s:tid tLnt a •; soon as possible those men \1 ho '" ent out on strike should get back to their old positions. The han. member for Paddington coulJ not cxpe0t him, when he got np on the spur of the moment, to sa' whether these men had got back or not.

::\lr. FIHELLY: I say they have not.

'fhe SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Thev had to take: the hon. member's word, but "the hon. member was exceedingly loath to aoecpt his (::Y1r. :Paget's) word. He would again speak to the CommiE, ioner about these men and find out in -what position they were.

Clause put and passed. Clause, 5 to 9, inclusive, put and passed.

On clause 10-" Su>pension and removal iron1 office"-

Mr. I-i::IRWA:;\f asked <1e Mini,.ter for Hailways wh:-thcr, pr<>nming the ~1inister had sufficient and ample ground for suspen­cion-and hon. members were' perfectly well a ware that no suspension of "u' .h a serious chariH"<8r could bke p]aoc CX''''Pt upon those conditions--,hether it rcsb'l 'sith the hon. gentlcban to put him back ag>~in into J:is position, if the charges ma.de against h1m had not been upheld, or would it r,,st entirely with the Hou,.e to restore the Commissioner. Subclause (3) rt'ad as follows:-

" The Co_~1rPis:.ioner so nlspt'nJed shall be restored to office unles< the Legis­lative Council and 'the Legislative Assembly, within twenty-one days from the time when such stat'lmeat has been laid l-·efore them respec1in:y, "'',·rally tJcoL.re bv rcoolu+ion that the Commis­sioner ouiht to be removed frQm effie,:; and if '" ithin th<~ sa~d +1me the Lr·g-1s~ lative Cecuncil and the L-,gislative Assembly so de<·,~al'C7 tJ-e CJinrljl'sioncr sc1all b,, remover\ by the Governor Jn Counc'l ac' ordingly." ·

Mr. LARCOMBE moved the deletion of the words " both Houses of FarLuDent," on lirw; 37 and 38. 'TL~ object of H,:3 amend­ment was to insert the words "Legislative A>•-e·nbly," and the a:nendmrnt. if c·.rried, ;,ould rustrict to th? Lagislati: ,. Acsembly th~ power of removing the Commissioner. 'J ~,,Bre s~em,:.d no adequate r0ason for asking thJ eoncurrence of the Council in this matteT, whi<'h w:>s a semi-administrative aDt. There w"'' a prBced0nt for the am,·n<~ment he in­tPnded to move later on. The pr<>sent PP'­mier of Now South \Vales movd Ia ~t ;,es&: on for the deletion of similar words in a mea­sure pn;sing through the New South Wales :Parliament; it was dons in that State, and it could be done here with advantage. He did not rely entirely on precedent. 'The

RaMcays Bill._ [5 AUGUST.] Ra~lways Bill. 799

-stand he took in regard to prooedent was that if it was good follow it, but if it was bad then disc<crd it. He trusted that the words would be deleted and that there would be an opportunity lahr on of inserting "Legislative Assembly."

Th•' SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS did not SPfl anv reas•Jn for the amendment. If it became ·necessary for certain reasons to "uspend the high officials, such as the Com­mis"ioner for Railways, he bhought it was •quite neceesary to have provision that both Houses o~ Parliament should have the onpor­i;unity of saying whether that suspei-t·-ion Bhould be upheld or not. Their Constitution provided for two Hous01 of Parliament, and there was no reaoon why they should depart from th'l system which had been in vogue since 18"8. They had been in the happy posi­tion that no Commissioner had ever been sus;--ended. They had always be-qn fortunate enough to dro,w the Commissioner from the ~·anks of the department, and he hoped they would be in the happy position of never having to su•pend the Commis.,ioner. It would be advisa!Jle that the h<Jn. member should not press his am<mdment. The clause waq taken frDm the old Ad of 1888, and the Commissioner was an Dffioer of Parlia­ment, and both Houses should have gn oppor­tunity of saying whether they dejrcd the suspension to be removed.

Mr. KIRWAN was surprised tho Minister 11ad no othP-r ar;.run1cnt to urgP in f2vour of the c:J.use as it stood than that it was in the 1888 .\ct. If the han. gentleman's officials suggosh:d t.he muking of a nevt type of engine, W;)u]d he tel] those officials that be­<'au.se a certain engine '' ,'ts P:ooJ .Pnough in 1888 it wa, good enough to-da~-? vVere they never ;>:oing to m<Jve forward?

The :'!ECRETARY FOR R UL WAYS : You want to abolish the Lc'gislative Council; it is one of your planks.

Mr. IGRW AN: He had no time for the other branch of the Legislature. It would 1,, · just a.-: Rensibh" to have hvo PrPmif'rs hvo Ministers for Railv, ays, or two Minister~ for Lands. He h"d not yet heard n valid argu­ment v.-hy ·another ~',sfuembly should be neces­Bary to discu '' a Bill of this kind or any other Bill. Snrely a delibe :ttive _A,,3embly such as this should have the power to sav v, he' her the Commissioner should go back to his former position or not, witihout th-3 nwersity Df referring it to another Cham:Jer.

Mr. FIHELL Y agreed vith the, han. mem­b0.r for Brisbane that, no satisfac~r,rv explana­tion heel becn ,;;iven as to why the' Assembly which appropriated the mom'> for the Coni­missioner's salary, ·Jnuld h''VC partner in such a purely di--cr·-etion~ry pc.we:. The salary could not be int· rfered with bv th<?

, other Chamb9r, 'md I hey should ha·: e no say in sud- a maHer. The han. mer.1ber for Briobane had malo an excellent illustra­tion with regard to .raih,,ev er-_~in~·. Th,,y would see some in ~he Exhibition shortly­a pe of the firot engine and of tho latest engin0,

Tho SECilETARY FO~ RAILWAYS: Not quite th,: first, (Laughter.)

Mr. FIHELLY: If the l'inister could get 3omcthing from the Non,, m Conqut•st, it would form some argument from h's point of view in safevuarding the pc.·ition of the Upper House and the position of the Com­missioner. He did not see any reu,son why

they could not fall into line with more demo­cratic Aeoemblieo, and exercise the power over the C'ornmi·-swn0r as being the represen­tives of the taxpayers~not sor,le nomine<> Chamber whore thev graduat9d by getting· very old, very incapable, or very rich.

Mr. FOKSYTH: ThorC' arc sam•: v2ry c~pable men there.

Mr. FIHELLY: That was no argument for the people outside who pr,id the taxes. It wns a matter of taxation and represntatim1, and members of th-• Ae-,,L.bly chuuld s-.y as to whether the Commissioner had dor:e right or v, '"ong. Personally, u.:~ to the 11urphy's Cr~c-'k ,.jl.iir, he thought the .\se·;mbl0 should have sa:d that the Ccmmiesioner had done wrong, and that so:ne of his oflicus----not. parfcularly tho''" who wore <li.,ra~_,d-had done grievous wrong to the neoplL' ,,;lQ had entrusted thehl with £33,C1JU,OOO wm·th of s:,)c~L Th~..... a1Lendn1ent was pe'-'fcctly reason­able.

i\Ir. TFEODOHE thought tho amendment '' :1s v:Grthy of cvnsideration by.., tlL, ('ha.rnber .. and one v~'orth pre9sing to a divi~ion. He could not se'l any lm·ic in the argument of the Minister, who thonght it n<o~: ·e".try to rctoin :his pov.cr in the h'\Nls of the Lrgls­btive Council.

The S>X~TETARY FvR RAILWAYS: AbJ!ition is not a plank in my platform.

Mr. 'I'HEODOTIE: It dicl not necessarily invoh r the abolition of th,, Co :nail by restrictinb' th-eir po1v c,r i::1 this regard. See­ing that it v. "' purely :m arhninistrative Act r'L'~~'lrJing tL,~ control of th:) C:->mnjsbioner, and that in tb' expeuditure of public money the Conlmis3ioner was rcsJwnsible to this Chamb,,r alone'. any mat'-er wh'ch rn.ight involve his suspension should render him liable t<J this Chamber.

The 2ECRE1ARY FOR RAILWAYS: So he is under the clause.

:Hr. THEODORE: He was responsible to both branches of tho LegiFlature, and not solely to this branch. No matter how strongly hon. members of this Chamber might feel with rc-sard ·to any action taken by the CommisJioner, they had no power over him oxc;,pt with the cons.,nt of the Upper House. In the other States, they had s, Gn tb,_~ weak­Hess of ~l:t\·~:r~::' ::rwh a res:ric1iun with regard to public (fhcials. In New South i'Vale" it bad b"com~ a vtblic nuisance--the Cmrw.is­"ioaer h .. d pov. er 1o flout not only the wishes of the )Ji;,;.,ter v :d tbe Governmcrtt, but gf Parliament itself, 'mtil they had him occu­pying tlw pc·~itio:l of going· counte: to the ,vishes of the p1•oplo. _A large ma]or:ct.y of thu people of New South iV:.lns wr re againot tlw poliny ;cdopkd by Mr. Joh1Fcon, th(· pre­s~~-nt C'ltnn1i'-·..;joner there. There v:as no doubt from the r2port' in th" nev:spapC'rs, that Mr. Johno.ton was n<Jt foliowing out the policy on<:-lrsGd by the pee ph of that State.

Th<> Sl,CRETARY FOR PrBLIC LA~;DS: It dt <>s not follo:·c that it i" wrong.

Mr. THEODORE: En~ it follow .,1 that it did not 11ieet with 1 w anproval of the wishes of the people, ard the opinion of the majority of thn p -ople should pmvail. They w.mld be wi; .. _. in loavi:JC <·his power in tho handR of th 0 As3emblv, \rhich ho was com·i1-<< d could bo dono without an;;- danger 'o j·.h,- interr->(s of the people. The members of this Ch:unber wore charged with a cerL;in aa,ount of responsibility, and it would not he an irrespon­sible policy to take the power out of the

M-r. Theodore. J

80'0 Railways Bm. [ASSE.MB'LY.] Railways Bill.

hands of the Council, and let the ~\ssembly alone control the Commissioner for Railways. He intended to support the amendment, and if the Minister did not see his way clear to accept it, he hoped the hon. member for Koppel would call for a divis:on.

Mr. ADAMSON intended to support tho amendment. It was not a proposal to abolish the other House, although, if it were, he would heartily support it, because it was time the non-representative Chamber ceased to exist as far as Qm·•msland was concerned. Tho amendment was in harmony \Yith what was ta!.ing place in Great Britain, in the

mother of Parliaments. Every­[8.30 p.m.] body knew that Lloyd George

and those associated with him had determined thal Lhe powers of th0 Hou&•> of Lords should be greatly restricted, and they were only acl ing in harmony with the moth<r of Parliaments in seeking to take any power the:; could from th0 Lc;-islativc Council, and make the Assembly the supreme Chamber. Both New Routh Wales and Western Australia were acting in a similat· way. The \Vestern Australian Government were proposing to make the Railway Com­missioner am0nable to ParliamPnt in a way he had not ber;J for some years. '£hey felt that Parliament should have more say in regard to the co1:struction and management of raih· .~, anJ it \YUS. bcc_:uRo he believed the Asd0mbly shmlld be supreme that he intenderl to support th0 amendment.

Mr. HUNTER said he lv,d no dosiuc to :we the position of Con1n1issioner for Rail~ ways made a politic"! one, but he failed to see any reason fur rf'i,ainii~_g the C'lause as it "as. He hoped that the hJn. member for Keppel would c'1ll ior a divisio;J on the l!.ffiO'H1mt:-.~..:.t, ar;;. there was no need to refer a matk,r of th.'s kind to "he second Ch't ,ber. The Assembly dwuld deal with it, us it was purely a question of adn1iniFtrution. He de,irGd to see the other House wirF·d out altogdher, and while that could not be done, they should oiideavour to restrict its powers. The lee; work there was for the other Chamber to do, the less necessity there would be for that Chamber ~<Jeeting.

The SH'RETARY FOR RAILWAYcl: They oom­plain that we do not give them sufficient to do.

Mr. HUNTER hoped they would get le's from tho Assembly. He did not think it was necessary .for them to get aDsib,ing to do from the Assembly. The provision wv.s alto­gc-ther uncallt•d for, and they mighb just as well ask the other Chambnr to confirm the appointnnYlt of a railway station~master or oth'.'r officia]g. To follow it to its lo'(ical oonclusion, no officer in the State should bo dismissed or appointed without first having the endorsement and approv"l o" the other Chamber.

Mr. GILDAY honed the Minister was not going to treat that Bill in tho same way that the Indmtrial Peace Bill wns treated. When that Bill was introduced, the Minister in charge said he was going to put it through without am,:ndment.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I have met you in a mo_;t liberal fashion.

Mr. GILDAY: They had got up to clauso 10 and no amendment had been ac<Jepted. He thought the precedent laid down, both in New South Wales and in Western .AUB•

f llf r .. Theodore.

tralia, and also by the English Parliament, should receive very serious cons_ideration. The Minister in charge of the Brll merely laughed when the amendment was moved, but the hon. gentleman must not forget that, as an Opposition, it was their duty to point out any anomalies, and manY: times the Oppo<ition had been. able. to pornt out some verv dangerous anomalu, that were found to· exist. He failed to sec why the Committee should allow a matter of that kind to go to the other Chamber. They were there as the represenbtivcs of tho people, while the members. of t,he oth~r House were simply the nomm0.f'S of the drf­fer,·nt Governments that had been in existence over sine,, Parliament had been established; but the Government, in their wisdom, felt that they were not conwewnt to deal with those matters, and rt was necessary to get another body to step in and help tlwm out of their difficuities. The Opposition was in a position to say t~at Parliament was quito qualifi,_•d to deal wrth matters of that description, and they failed to see any necescity for bringing in th(} assistance of another Chamber. If the Minister wished to pass legislation to meet modern requirerwms, those parochial ide::ts thnt had been in exi"tence for years should be discarded D.'l the time had arrived when new method~ should bn adopted in dealing with many matt.ers in that Chamber. He hoped the Minister would accept the amend­ment and make the Bill fit to look at.

J'.1r. BOOKER thought tho clause was a propc.r safeguard. The argument of tho deputy leader of the Opposition, in connec­tion with the position in Kew South Wales, only emphasised the nec0ssity for a provision of this nature. If the Conuni"ioner, by any act or lack of recognition of political in­fluence, failed to do certain things to please a Government which had a majority in the ~\ '"embly, he could be penalised even to the extent of !o,ing his a;opointment; and when a clause similar to this bore UTJOU his posi­tion, the judicious, calm, and -dispa·osionate· judgment of the Upper C'hamb't would pr:c­vent any injustie'.' from being done. He d1d not think that Parliameilt could cast any reflection upon any individual me,nber of the other Chamber, so far a' their equip­m<mt, by experi,nce and business knowledge, to give a right judgment on the dismissal of tho Railway Commissione1·, was concerned. H<> thought this o~s a very necessary safe­guard, not only in the interc3ts of tl:" Commissionrr, but in the infoorests of public expenditure, and in the intereets of tho Legislative Acsembly, which controlled pub­liQ expenditurr·. The argument> of m•-mbers oppnite Haint~ined the position laid down by the Han. the j}.'[inister. The CommissioneJ" fDr l?rtih•·n.1:::: in Ke,1~ SGuth Vv'a1Ps li-v.as un~ popular with tho majority of the New South \Vales Parli,·,mtnt because he was a ''-ong man, well "'luipped and well quali:fic -1 to fill his pooition, and the opinions of the majority of ParliamE>nt did not affect him. Tho same thing might crop up in Queens­land·, and, i' tho amendment were passed, then it woulc' be a dang-erous position for the Commissioner himself and also for the Legislative Assembly, which was responsible for the financial administration of the Com­missioner.

Mr. HUNTER : The han. member for Wide Bay had paid the Le!!islative Assembly the poorest tJompliment he had 'heard it

Railways Bill. (5 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 801

paid since he had been in the House. The hon. member for Wide Bay practically told them that the majority of the LP-gis­lative Assembly could not be trusted to give ·an impartial and fair decision with regard to an officer of the State. That was the position he took up-that seventy-two mem­bers of the Assembly could not be trusted to deal with one individual who happened io be a servant of the State. The members of the Assembly wore rf·Sponsible to thl> country, and the electors would be able to see if there was any pNsonal spleen u~p,d against the Commissioner. He sinct>rt>ly regretted to hoar such an exprec.sion of opinion come from any member of tho Chamber as came from the hon. memb0r for \Vide Bay. They WL're responsible to tho people, and surely they were more to bo trusted than a nominated bodv y.ere ! Surely the body responsible to tho people were more likely to see that j ustiJe was meted out to an officer of the Stat~e, whether he was in a higher gmde of the service or in a lower grade. \Vhether it was c•n tPe Tory side of the Hause--

Mr. FOR9YTH: There are no 'l'ocios herl'. We are Liberals.

Mr. HUNTER: The hon. member was the biggest Tory of the lot. (Laughter.)

1\i[r. FoRSYTH : You ar<' a Tory in dis­guise.

Mr. HUNTER: Wheth•'r it was a Tory Government in power, or whethe1· it w:w a Labour Government in power, they could always be trusted to accept their responsi­bility, and do the fair thing with 1 (·gard to the offiwn of the State.

Mr. FORSYTH (JIUJ·rumba): Tl:wy were making a great deal of fuss about nothing. What did it c. II mem1? The clan· e provided that if the Commissioner was suspend"<!, ho should not be removed from office until the n,atter h:cd been brought before both Houses of Parliament-tho Upper Hou;e us well as the As•,embly. Members (,pposito would agree that they had many experienced men in the Upper House, and that thev gave a calm and collected oninion on ail matters submitted to them. -In the Vic· torian Act there was a provision that in , case of suspension the matter should go before both Houses of Parliament. It wos true the Upr:er House in Victoria was elec­tive, but the members were not paid. A Rimilar provision was provided for in othBr States. If it were left to the Assembly ,alone, they might pass a resolution while in a state of excitement: but the Upper Houso w.1s a eool, calm, and collected Chambe1', and wore not likely to be carried away l::y any excitPn1•.:nt, and they rnight, therefon,, gr'': a bett.•r jud;::-ment from th •'n. It did E•Jt m11ke very much difference. The Lcgis­la'ive Couneil would look at the case fairly and ddiberatelv, and in an unbiassed wav. In the c:cse of a suspeneion, all thev W>nt~d "as t ,, get all th0 evidence and infcmYution th0y c<mld, so thai thBv could arrive nt a fair Lnd a just conclusion. He thougl1t it would be 'bett.~•r to discus!\ somB other clouse of the Bill, that would h·" of more importanc" to the officers and men in the department.

Mr. KIRWAN: If there was nothing in the clause, .as suggested by the last hou. member who spoke, then the Secretary for

1913-3 D

Railways could at once stop the discussion by accepting the suggestion to drop the Upper House out of it. He had reo~ivcd a lecture from the hon. member for \Vide Bay, but he would ae'lure that hon. member that his views were ~bared by people outside. The Legislative Assembly might be safely trnsted to deal with the Commissioner in a fair and iust way when the time arrived. and there' was no necessity to send it to another Chamber. He had no he,,itation in saying that on every avail~ble opportunity he would clip the win!;S of the other place, because it was the bulwark which stood between th<' people and what they actually d0sired. Tho hon. member for \Vide Bay ntid that the Lr>gisiative Council was like the umpire, but with all the hon. gentl<e­lnan's political knov, ledge and expP~ien('ce,. he could not givo one instance 'Where the l.'pper House had acted as an umpire. An umpire wao known for his impartiality, but b,· no stretch of imagination could anyone s~y thnt the Upper House was imparti.al. In fact, with one or tw0 solitar.v exceptions, it represented entirely one political party.

Mr. GRANT pointed out that similar phraseology wac: used in other Acts o~ Par­liament with refernce to the susnens10n of judges, members of the Land Court, the .\uditor-General, and any other official who '"a" taken out of thP direct control of the lYlinistor. The .amendment was just an attempt, a• tho han. member for Brisbane vut it, to ciip the wings of another House. It would be a much more effective way of doing that if the Labour men who ''ere srmt in+o that Chamber made a move in that direction themselves. There was a man in that Hou-;c directly representing unions, but, so far as he knew, he never made a sinr:Ie move to ·abolish that Hone,~, beuause onc•o he got there he was probabl,y so anxious to remain that he did not desire its abolition. And he thou~>:ht the same thing was true oi New South w·ales. He thou~?ht thA.t they should keep the phraseology of the Bill while the other Houso had direct legis­lative powers with them.

Mr. FIHELL Y: The arguments he had heard on the other side only confirmed him that it was desirable to accept the amend­ment. If they took the advice of the mem· bers on the other side, they would appoint two or three commissioners to run the whol!l show. He would agree with the hon. mem­ber for Wide Bay that that might be well with the present standard of intelligenc0 on the other side; but later on they might have a Labour GoYernment in power, and they 'benld have some intelligent administration. The hon. member for Wide Bay judged mental crrlibre in the ratio of his own value, and he sneered at the young men of the Hous"l. but, so Lr as he could seA, he was not one of those who had forsaken his follies with his ;.-outh. He hopod that Chamber, which was the repres;cmtative Chamber, would insist on its being recognised as the outward and visible sign of what the people of Queensland thou2'ht. Thov were there repre­sent'ng the gc,1eral taxpayer. but the people in another place were representing mostly their own interests. He did not' say that some men there were not good men : he had some very closely related to his family. But because some were wealthy, it did not mean that wealth was synonymous with intellect. This was the Chamber that appealed to the

jj.[r. Fihelly.J

802 Ra~lways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

pe~ple every three years, and it alone should have power owr the Commissioner for Rail­ways.

Mr. LARCOMBE regretted to hear the han. member for Fitzroy take advantage of the amendment to make a personal attack on the members of the Labour party. It was characteristic of his speeches, which he fre­quently ;poiled by making such attacks upon inembers, undBr cover of amendments sub­mitwd to the House. The bon. member for Murrumba said there was nothing in the amendment. If that were so--which he dis­puted-it would be similar to the hon. gen­tlBman's argumBnt. He talkBd all round the question. He started from nowhere; he went nowhere, and finished at the same place. (Laughter.) He rPgretted that thP Minister for Railways had drawn a red herring across the track in attempting to show that his amendment was moved with the object of attacking the Legislative Council. HP studi­ously avoided making any attack on the Legislative Council, or any reference <to the bi-cameral system. He had his own Htrong opinions as to that system, but he based his argument on very substantial ~rounds-that the Act was only a semi-admin­Istrative Act and not a legislative Act of tho ordinary nature at all. The Secretary for Railways opposBd it because the clause had remained for the last quarter of a century ..

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL WAYS : Oh, no; I said that the Constitution provided for two Houses of Parliament, and this mattr>r should be dealt with by both.

Mr. LARCOMBE: If they were slavishly to stick to what had been done in the past, thBre would be no need for legislation. In New South WaiBs they had the bi-cameral system, but the Legislative AssBmbly had seen fit to restrict the removal of certain commissioners to themselves, and rightly so, because it was a Sflmi-administrative Act. Even if he were the strongest believer in the existence of the L<'gislative Council, he would still move the am<'ndmt-nt for the reason he had stated.

Mr. KESSELL (Port Curtis): The bon. membBr who had just resumed his seat sa.id that the hon. member for Murrumba had starwd from nowhere and was going to nowhere and got back nowhere. If he did, it was like the amendment. It meant no, bing else than a chance for a little talk at the expense of the Upper House, and it was a pity that the House's time was so religi­«usly waswd by hon. gentlemen opposite in vainlv trying to challeng·H the Treasu rv benches. That Liberal lamb in the wolf''s clothing of the socialist, the bon. member for Maranoa, sometimes gut up and abusod the Upper Hous<'. He was the one man on that side of th., HousP, nominally a Labour ma.n, who was an aboolute authority on any To~-v mE'!tSUrB ever introducvd in the House because he wa,s a Tory of Tories 0f the Labour part:--. It was mosl: unfortunate that the New South \Vales railways had been in­troduc,,d them, because everybodv knew that what had been the trouble with them for ~h"' lnst few years was the intolerable politic-al inte•'f<>rences of the Labour party.

~fr. KIRWAN: Give us a few facts to sup­port that.

. [Mr. Fihelly.

Mr. KESSELL: The bon. member would not recognise a fact if he heard it. Every­body knew that the actions of the Labour party in New South Wales, in forcing the Commissioner's hands, making him increase eYerything and pand<'r to on!' secti~n of ~hP communitv, had resulted m therr bemg faced witii an alarming deficiency. (Laugh­ter.) He quit£ recognised that hon. gentle­men laughed when they heard " deficiency " mentioned, because they did not understand the A B C of finance. In Queensland we had two Houses which were in every respect

co-ordinate in their powBrs, and [9 p.m.] we must recognise the Upper

House. HB quite agreed with the bon. member for Maranoa when he said that thev could not truPt some of the members of the. Assemblv to deal with certain matter~. He would be very sorry to su]Jmit the. Ra~l­way Commissioner, or any h1gh offi01al m the Railway Department receiving over £500 a year, to the judgment of members ?PPO­site, because any man who was not nommally a working man in their sense of the te.rm would have "Bucklcv's chance" of gettmg a fair deal. There would be the usual pan­dering· to th<> Labour vote, and to the La~JOur vote only. He trusted that the Comm1ttBB would not countenanc<' any propo••al to ignore the Upper Hous<', or to make its abolition a subject of party strife. They should not denrive themselves of the benefit of the m~tured intC'llect of the m(>n who were in the Upper House, or refuse t~ listen to the opinions formBd from c_xpNience _by the business men who occup1ed seats m that Chamber. One member of the Opposition who had spoken in this debate did not seem to know that there wBre no Government rail­ways in Great Britain, for he stated that the British Parliament had done what t'h:ls amendment suf<gested should be done m Queensland.

Mr. Ifl'NTER: No; you are clean off the track.

Mr. KESSELL: Apparently the han. mem­ber to whom he refnrred was le.bouring under the delusion that there were Government railways in Great Britain or he would not :have .advanced tho argnments he did. He trusted that this qLh'stion would come to a speedv divisiDn, and that they would get down· to solid business.

Mr. BERTRAM rose to support the amend­mBnt and in doing so would point out to the 'bon. member for Port Curtis that scurrilitv was not argnment. The bon. mem­ber had" done whnt he usually did-abused members of the J_,,;bonr party and indulged in personalities. While the hon. member was speaking h,_ reminded him of .a despic­able chaTader C'etllBd " Uriah He., p," in one of Dickens's novels; he did not know any member of that Chamber whom he =uld liken to that character more than the hon. member for Port Curtis.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I hope hon. members will discuss the question before the Commiti,,ee, and not W<i"te time deb""ting these personal matters.

Mr. BERTRAM: It was not often that ihe critieieed in this way members opposiw, or any other members, but he thought that his remark •'as justified afwr the tira,de of ·abuse they had had from the han. mem­ber for Port Curtis. There had not been on9

Railways Bil!. (5 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 803

:argument advanced by the hon. member which was worth anything as far as the .aniendment was concerned. The hon. mem­. ber who moved the amendment gaye good .Yeasons why it should be accepted, end no >tttempt had becm made to refute his argu­ments, but insteed they had had abuse from a number of members on the Government s·ide of the House. He hoped, with the hem. member for Port Curtis, that they would get to a speedy division on the ques­'tion, and that they would find a number of . members opposite Yoting for the am<mdment.

Mr. ADAMSON wus sorry to have to get up and reply to a lot o£ scurrility from a political accident. If there was any man in the House who was there by sheer accident, and not by any real honest me,·it of his own, !it was the hon. member for Port Curtis. The hon. member stated that he (Mr. Adamson) did not know what he was t.:tlking about whBn h<' was speaking about the bi-cameral system of goyernment in Great Britain.

Mr. KESSELL : I did not say it of you.

l.lr. ADAMSON : He knew that there were no railways under tJw control of the British Parliament, but what he was ref0rring to was the bi-cctmeral rysfem of government.

Mr. KESSELL rose to <t point of or.der. He did not refer to the hon. mBmber for Rockhampton as not knowing that there were no railways under tl1e control of the British Government. He had stated that by way of interjection, and, while he referred ·to .a member on the other side, he did not refer to the hon. member for Rockhampton, and he hoped the han. member would take his word for it.

Mr. ADA:MSON: He accept<'d the dis­" claimer of the hon. member for Port Curtis, because it was always courteous to do that in the Hou,e. If the han. memb~r .did not refer to him, he t~"ferred to some other mem­ber on that side of the House who, he hoped, would get up and reply to him. The

,speeches made at any time by members on ·thB Opposition side of the House would bear .favourable comparison with any speeches 'made b:v the hon. member for Port Curtis in the House.

Mr. PAYNE: He did not agree with the .argument put forw,ard by members on the Government side of thB House, as, for in­.stan~'. th:>t advanced by the hon. member for Murrumba, who said that the matter they were dis,;us•ing was rBferred to both Houses of Parliament in Victoria, and that iu that State the "Cpper Housa was elected on .a rath(·r re,tricted franchise. It did not matter how rt!!,tricted the franchise might he, there could be no comparison between a Hou'e which was electe"d even on a re­stricted franchise, and a nominee Chamber. He ma,de no individaul attack on any mem­ber of the Up"'er House, but he felt satis­ficcl that this Hom3 alone could deal with this matter. He regretted to hear any ho-q.. member insinuating tJ1at the Labour party were alwavs after votes. Th,, hon. member for Port Curtis said that this amendment was moved for the single purpose of catching Labour votes. Ee knew of no man in the House who had •' smoodged" and crawled more than the hon. member for Port Curtis ;to get voteR.

The CHAIRMAN : Order t

Mr. PAYNE: J:\o one should be anJwed to rise in his place and make such falsu ,,tatements .

The CHAIItMAN : Order ! The hon . member is not parliamentar:;r in acc~sing the hon. member for Port Cnrtrs 111 malnng false statements-he is not in ordC'r in domg so.

Mr. PAYNE: In response to tho Chair­man's decision he would withdraw tho words, but he thought it was not right for any member to rise in his pi au' and make deliberate attacks on other hon. members . If they were opposed to the amendment, they should oppose it straight out, and not insinuate that it had been moved for other reason8. Every man on this s.de had. signed a platform, one of tho planks of \Yhrch wa' the abolition of the l~ pper House.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILwAYS: And you try to bring it about by a side-wind.

Mr. P .\ YNE : The Commissioner for Raii­ways or any other public servant, would suffe~ no harm in being dealt with by mem­bers of the Assembl.;. The:· would be safor if dealt with bv th<s Chamber than by the Upper House, because. the members of the Assembly were responsible to the electors for th!lir actions. He hoped that the amendment would be carried,

Mr. FOLEY: ThP arguments used by _th<• other side were not, in his opinion, sufficrent to y, arrant tho House in refusmg to carry the amendment. The only argullJent that had been used was uw d by the Secretary for Rail ways, who said that, because there was a certain plank in the platform of .the Labour party, this amendment was a side­wind to bring it in. The argum<cnts of thos~· who had supportcd the amendment from this side were that, because the House was respon­sible to the people, it should be able. to say whether the Commissioner had done his duty, without relegating it to an irrPsponsiblo body, which was accountable to nobody but them­selves. Members of the Assembly had to fac;e the electors once in every three years, 1f not oftener, and might be called t) account for not doiil7 their duty properly. . lion. members opposite said that t~:s side obJected to an arbitrator coming rn m the shape of the Upper House, but if a dispute_ ':"rose between the Commh,cioner and the _Mmrster, and the matter was submitted to ~his H_cn~se, members had to act as arbitrators .m. decrdmg whether the Minister or the Con:missroner was ric;h'"; and if the Hou·e decided th';Lt the :Th-1inisL~r was wroiH~, thP;tc~ would . reinS~ tat~' the Co •>mi. ~icnPr, h,t if the-.: drc1ded thai the Commj>sioner '\Vas wro:n~? t~e! '-'ro;1l~l carrv a recolution that he be '"'· ni3ted. 'l h1s Ho11,; "·a3 ree·Jonsible to ·ihe people for the exv'CJditure o( the public J,wney, and som?· thii'>' like £30,000,000 1 ad been expc,-,ded m raih~, av <·onstrucFon. Th~~ IJ:ouh· mt;;ht con~ sider ·i~F', 1j the Comrnis:;ioner had done so.:pe­thing .wl~ich should b~ the c:ause of ~p;novn1f!. him fro•11 his ollie<>, but an n·r••sponsi~k+ body might r<>fuse to C'd'l':J such a res'">lutron,_ and the r<·sult would b0 that the Comm•ss1oner would be reinslatRd. For 1he r<>a,ons he had indica+~d, he \':ould mpport the arr •nclmcnt.

Ho+:. R. PHILP (Tmrnuille) : When the olcl Con1n1isri.oncrs \vere nboli .;hed, and Com­n1issioacrs \VE'l'O £P-;l,oint"d \Yho \VCre respon­sible to Parliament, they thol!ght that all politicvl favouritism in the railways woul_d

-be doric away v·ith, but no man worth ~IS salt would acccpt the po8ition of CommiS· sioner for Railways and be bound only by

. H on. R. Philp.]

804 Railways B~lt.. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bili.

one House. They would soon make that man a politician, and they vc anted to keep the: politician out of the thing altogether.

Mr. THEODORE : Do you not trust this House?

HoN. R. PHILP: This House was a party House.

Mr. BowMAN : The other House i~ a party House.

HoN. R. PHILP: The other House was not a party House. The hon. member for Fortitude Valley was as responsible a8 any other member of the House for the appo:nt­ment of many of the members of the Upper Hous0.

Mr. BowMA~: No, I am not. HoN. R. PHILP: When the hon. member

was running the Ministry on this side of the House, he made seven appointments in one day.

Mr. BOWMAN: I never made one appoint­ment.

HoN. R. PHILP: If the hon. member only put his little finger up, the Ministry would have gone out of office. (Laughter.) Nothing was done without consulting him, and why, when he was in charge of the House, did he not alter th's thing? This House could do nothing by itself. Parliament meanL the two Houses--that was tho Constitution-tho Lower and the Upper House, and until they abolished the Upper House it had co-ordinate powers with this Chamber. If they sent this up to the Upper House, did hon. members think they would pass it? They were only beating their wmgs, and wasting their time. When the hon. membe1· for Keppel had been a little longer in tho House, he would know it was impossible by an amendment like this to abolish the Upper House.

Mr. LARCOMBE: I am not seeking to abolish the Upper House.

HoN. R. PHILP: They were strongly entrenched, and it would take more than a dozen things of this sort to perturb the members of the Upper House.

Mr. BowMAN: It will take more than that to shift Barlow out of it. (Laughter.)

HoN. R. PHILP : If they knocked tho words out in this House, he was satisfied they would restore them in the other Cham­ber; they would never pass the Bill with one House in it.

Mr. THEODORE: WhY not assist us to abo!ich the Upper House?

HQN. R. PHILP: They were a useful body, and he would try tD make them elective.

Mr. KIRWAN: That is making them worse. Ho,.-. R. PHILP: Making them stronger_

He hoped the Committee would pass the clause as it stood, and 111ake the Commis­sioner, whoever he was, a strong man.

Mr. THEODORE: Like Johnston is in New South Wales.

HoN. R. PHILP: Yee, ~nd a very good man, too. It wac only waste of time to dis­cuss the amendment, because even if it were carried it would be put back in another place, and he hoped the Committee would vote again't the pror~sal.

Mr. BOWMAN: The hon. member for Townsville had stated that he (Mr. Bow­man) had rnadf' several appointments to the Upper House.

Hon. R. PHILP: Are you ashamed of your. appointments?

. [Hon. R. Philp.

Mr. BOWMAN said he had never made one, although he admitted that in some~ degree he was the power behind the Go. vernment at that time when they wanted any decent legislation passed; but when the hon. member said that they were prepared to keep the Legislative Council intact, it did not apply to him at all.

Hon. R. PHILP : elective.

I wanted to make it

Mr. BOWMAN said they had had experi­ence of elective Councils in three different States in Australia : In Victoria, under a very restricted franchise; South ~ustra.lia, less restricted; and Western Australia, fairly liberal; but in the three other States a nominee CounciL He was not opposed to the individual personality of any member of the L0gislative Council, but to the system of a second Chamber, because he thought the Assembly was quite capable o~ passing laws. The hon. member for Townsvilll' knew that the 1908 general election was practically fought because democratic legislation was refused by the other Chamber, an~ when tho Government came back they submitted prac­ticallY the same legislation again, and the other· House was forced to pass it without amendment.

Hon. R. PHILP: Yes, after you had "stuffed" the Upper House.

Mr. BO\VMAN : I never " stuffed " the L:pper House.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon. mem­ber must keep to the que<tion before the Committee.

Mr. BOWMAN: The hon. member for Townsville had interjected about the powers­he (Mr. Bowman) once had, and he was very sorry he had not used those powers ta a greater extent than he did, because if he had done so the Legislative Council would not ha vo been in existence to-day.

Mr. LARCOMBE: Hon. members generally would agree on the .force of the argument that had been used by members of the Op, position in favour of the amendment, and the nature of the argument of members­opposite was an illustration of the weakness of their case. The member for Townsvill& used arguments which really surprised him, because the hon. member must know they were not in accordance with the facts. The> hon. member said no Railway Commissionel' would acc~pt the position under the condi­tions which it was proposed to impose by the> amendment. The New South \Vales Commis­sioner< accepted the position under simi­lar circumstances, so what was the use of arguing in tho face of what had taken place in the sister Stat£,? The hon. member for Townsville aho arzued that it was necessary that the- two Houses shcmld review the dis­missal of the Commissioner, for the reason that the Assembly had a strong political colouring, and inferentially that th" Council had not. Every re:c-onable person would admit that the Council was just r~s strongly, if not mOl''' strongly, tinged politically than the Assembly. Hon. members opposite had attempted to argue that the Council was a necessary safeguard because the Assembly might attempt to peremptorily dismiss the Commissioner without reasonable grounds. The history of the Legislative Council, and the history of the House of Lords, had shown that they had never been on tho side

Railways Bill. (5 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 805

·<Of progres'5; that whenever they had stepped in as a barrier, it had always been on the side of retrogression.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! I must ask ·the hon. member to keep to the question.

Mr. LARCOMBE: It was significant that in Canada there were only two provinces where the bi-cameral system was in existence,

and wherever it existed it was (9.30 p.m.] always against progress. All

the amendment asked was that the power of dismissing or removing the Commissioner should be restricted to the Legislative Assembly, and he hoped the Committee would agree to it.

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted (Mr. Larcombe's amendment) stand part of the clause-put; and the Committee divided:-

Ans, 37. Mr. Appel , Barnes, W. H. , Bebbington , Bell " Blair

Booker , Bouchard , Bridges ., Corser, B. H. , Corser, B. B. C. , Cribb ,. Denham

Douglas , ForRyth ,, Grant ,~ Grayson

Gunn , Rodge

Kessell

Mr. Luke , Macartney

Mackay Mackintosh. }iacrossan

, Paget Petrie Philp Rankin Roberts Somerset

, Stevens Swa:rne Tolmie Trout Vowks White Williams

Tellers: Mr. Douglas and Mr. Kessell.

NoEs, 24. ::Mr. Adamson Mr. Ruxham

Barber "

Kirwan " Bertram I, and

" Bowman

" Larcom be

, Coyne "

Lennun " Fihelly

" May , Foley

" McCormack

" Gilday

" Murphy

" tiilllPS "

O't;u!llvan "

Hamilton " Payne

" Hardacre "

Theodore "

Hunter "

Winstanley Tellers: Mr. Bertram and Mr. Larcom be.

Resolved m the affirmative.

Mr. HUNTER: The 3rd para;;raph of clause 10 read-

" The, Commi,,sioner so suspended shall be, re"':ored to office, unkc.s the Legislativ" Council and the LegiFlative Assorbly within twenty-one day1 £rom the tinw when such statcmimt he<s been laid before them. re pectively, se'. ,,rally denlerc h;- n-:.•_olution that th0 Con1n1is­sioner oug·ht to be removed from office."

"11ho argutncnt used by the othr,r sido \vas that tb-_cr; was a dan15rr of the party in 1'ower showinp: political bias, or by having t~ome quarrel \Yith the Con1n1issioner, n1ak­ing him suffer on account of th" power they held. 'The clause as iG stood put in•) the hands of the Minider ihe power to tyrannise over the Commissioner, and absolutely sus­pend him. If the Commissioner wouid not do something that the Minister wished him ,to do, the ~[inistcr could suspend him, and unless both Houses of Parliament moved a -re•olntion to re,tore him, he i\a3 sacked.

The responsibility for taking action for the dismissal of the Railway Commissioner then fell upon some other person, .and, as tJ:!e result, if no action were taken, the Commis­sioner remained in office. If Parliament went into recess, the Minister could again suspend him. That was the sort of argument that was used by the other side <tf5ains:f; . the amendment, and if the Han. the Mm1ster thought it was a silly argument he would know that it was the same as that he used himself in the former ca,'e. If the Legislative As.>embly could not be trusted to deal with the Commissioner, then the Minister himself could not be trusted to take charge of such a grave re·ponsibility. If seventy­two members could be guilty of bringing political power and spleen to bear against the Cotnmissioncr. surely s0ven men1bers of the Cabinet, and one member in particular, should not have that power. It would be much better to leave the power to the one Chamber. If the Hon. the Minister thought it was a worthle's argument, then it was one which he had used himself to deal with the suspension of the Commissioner.

Question put.

Mr. HUNTER moved an amendment by inserting the word "not" after the word ·• shall," on line 43, so that it would read-

" The Commis,ioncr so suspended shall not be restored."

By this he was throwing the whole respon­sibility on the Ministm for the suspension and dismissal of the Commi•,>ioner. If the Commissioner',s offence was grave enough to require his suspension, then when the Minis­ter came into the House he should be pre­pared to move a motion for his dismissal, and not leave it for some other member of the· Chamber to do. The Commissioner should not be restored unless the Minister moved in the Chamber that he be restored, .and the act of 'suspension would remain good and receive the confirmation of the House.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: That is not your amendment.

Mr. HUNTER: It would require another amendment as well, but this amendment would throw the n PD'''ibility on to the Minister.

Mr. THEODORE thought that the Min­ist-er might reply to the ;,rguments of the hon. nwmber for lHarar.o,'. He supposed that if the Commissione;' were ·'"'ponded, the Minister would in dutv be bound to make a ',tatement to the House:

The SEOREURY FOR RAILWAYS : One would think so.

Mr. THEODORE: He, thought the sugges­tion made bv the hon. member for Maranoa. might be pr.;fer .ible because it would in.dicat<> clearly what must be done.

J\1r. JYLicRO"'S.\N: This sa.ys, "shall cause."

Mr. THEODORE : It seemed to him "" very direct v-ay of getting out of the diffi­culty in justice to the Commissioner himself. He thought the suv:."cstion wzts worthy of the attf'ntion of the Mmi ,ter.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He saw no need for the amendment. Subclause (2} of clause 10 contained these words-

" If the Commissioner is so suspended the Minister shall cause to be laid before

Hon. W. T. Paget.]

806 Ra1lways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rail·u·ays Bill.

both Houses of Parliament a full state­ment of the grounds of such suspension within seven days thereafter if Parlia­ment is in se,sion and actually sitting, and, when Parliament is not in session or not actually sitting, within seven days after the commencement of the next session or sitting."

That gave the opportunity for Parliament to say whether they desired the suspension confirmed or not.

Mr. COYNE did not think that what the Minister had said was very clf'ar. He thought that if the Minister took on himself the sus­pension of the CommiHioner, he should take the onus of the act on his own shoulders, and it should be compulsory on the Minister to brin(l" it up in Parliament before the Com­misswner should he restored to office.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Subsection (2) says he must.

:!.\1r. COYNE : It says lh• must make a statement, but it makes no refercnoo to restoration.

The SEORET.\RY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : The JY1ini··ter do•c·l nut su:-pend him: it is thf' Governor in Council.

Mr. COYNE : It wa, no usc splitting straws.

The SECRETARY FOR PvBLIO INPTRUCTION : It makes a big difference here.

Mr. COYNE: Nobody wa·, going to assume that the Governor would go against the advice of his responsible adyisers. If the Commissioner was suspended for any cause ~h<;tt the Minister thong.ht good enough, tho Mrmster was to come before Parliament and make a full statement as to why he caused tho suspension. Under the Bill 'as it stood the House ne0d not take any action at all, and after twenty-one days, whether the ::\finister was wrong or right, the Commis­sioncn· was b1·ought back to office automat.I­cally.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Bv takino­no action to disapprove of the susp.ension. "

Mr. COYNE: They mig·ht either approve or disapprove of it without taking any action in the House.

Mr. MACROSSAN: That is, if a Bill went through without discussion, You would sav they did not <wprove or di·approve. '

Mr. COYNE: A~ a matter of fact. if a Bill went through without discussion it wa. then deci'C],od in th0 affirmative. There was nothing to specify that the motion should be made b.'' thtl Mininor, and it would be like the regulations sometimes laid on the bble­they would hear nothing more <tbout it. The words propos'ld would compel the Minister to make his s'at"mPut _wiih. ": Yiew to getting the Hou·r• to toke h·s opmwn on that state­ment.

Amendment (Jir. Hunter's) put and negatived.

Clause 10 put arvl passed. Clauses 11 to 16 agreed to. On clause 17-" Secretary and other em­

ployees''-

Mr. McCORMACK noticed that one of the suhclauses read-

" (2.) The Commissioner shall appoint and employ such offic•••rs, clerks, and other employees to assist in tho execution of this Act as he thinks necessary."

He believed there should be some other [Hon. W. T. Paget.

method than that whioh applied at present.. All oyer the country they had disagreements between the Commissioner and his workmen. Thev found that the Commissioner refused to pay' the same .as the private employer wa& paying. It seemed remarkable that the Go­vernment which had taken credit for intro­ducing a Bill which was going to give them industrial pea-ce should be the only en;tploy~r continually being involved in industrial drs­puteJ. During the dis'?u~sion in conn_:ction with that Act the Mmrster for Railways told them that Parliament was the wages board that Parliament would fix the wages of tl1~ employees on the railwa~s, but th~y. found that it was passed on to the Commis­sioner. He hoped that something yvould _be. done to give the employees ,an rmpartr~l tribunal where thev could have their grievances rectified Jiko any priYate em­ployees.

Hon. R. PHILP : Do you suggest a wages­board?

:'vir. MoCOR)IACK: We would not care· ''hat it was so long as it was an impartial tribunal so lono- as one man who was really the em,;loy<'r ciid not have the right to fix the rat~s fo;. tho whole of Queensland. They had it recently in a case whore the Govern­ment refused to pay the rate which privato employers werP forced to pay und:r an award in connection with the pamters. They had it at Mount Cuthbert and in other dist;ict~.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Our 1nen are working under rE'gulations and not under 1\·a.g<'s boards.

:.VIr. ::YicCORMACK: That was just what he was disputing.

::.Vfr. E. B. C. CORSER: The works are not parallel.

:Mr. }.rlcCOR::'vlACK: They 1Yere. · VIr. E. B. C. CORSER: One is permanent work.

Mr. McCORMACK: Was pick and shovel work on a railway permanent?

::Ylr. K B. C. CORSER: You said painting.

::\lr. McCORMACK: In the case of ::'vfount Cuthbe1·t at which he was a representu.tive of the m'eu, thP Government refused to pay the rat~ ruling in the district. He refused tD giYc them within 1s. 6d. per day of the­rates obtainirw in that distri<Ot for the same clasc; of hhot~r. The Hampden Company were building a branch line, the J\!acgregor Company were building a private railway, and they were ~ot~ paying lls. 6d. P';'r da;r, and the C>Jmmldswner J:efubed to grye hrs men more than 10.'s. a day, and they went on strike.

The SECRETA!\>' FOR RAILWAYS: They did not go on strike for more wages; they went on strike because some of the men had not nnion tickets.

Mr. :McCORMACK: No; the uriginal dispute wa< oyer ·wage·' The cost of living was greater by 40 per cent. in Cloncurry than it was in Townsville, and yet they had the same rate · of wages fixed :for both places by the Commissioner, 1md he said. he. eould not alter it. \Yhen they were passml\" the Industrial Peace Act, the Government, wisely or unwisely, refused to allow .t~eir own employees to come under the provrswns­of that Act, and it was nec<">&:ny that there­should be some tribunal to fix wages of rail-

Railways Bill. (5 AUGUST,] Railways Btll. 807

1\'ay employees. Certain classes of railway employees in the Korth of Queensland were not getting a li~ing wage, and he challenged the Minister to submit the matter to a wagcs board. He believed that such a tribunal, even with a Tory chairman, would give those 1uen an increase in their "''ages. Nnw South \Va.Ies made provision for fixing thu wages and conditions o£ employment on Govern­ment work as well as on private work b' an independent tribunal, and something similar should be done in Queensland. If tho award of such a tribunal determined that 6s. or 7B. or 8s. a day should be paid to nien employed on railway construction works, thnn tho l\1inistcr could conw to tbe I-IousP a.nd say, "'Yon asked us to give. those people a fair deal, and that is the rcuson wh, wo have to incrt'nP·' taxation." This gq_~at p·a,ver of fixing wageo shonld not b • in rill' hands of the Commiss:oner.

l\<.h. MACROSSAN: 'Why didn't you put that amendment iu the Industrial Pear·e Act Y

2\lir. I:fcCOID.L\CK : They tried to do so. Mr. J\IACROSSAN : You ''ere asked to do it

anJ refused. :Mr. McCORJYIACK : An amendment Hl

lhc,,t direction w:u movod by a member on this side of the House.

l\Ir. MACROSSAN: I asked you to move it, and you refused to move it.

Mr. McCORMACK: Whether such a provision was in the Industrial Pc-,tce Act or not. did not troublE' him. \Vhat he oon· tended wa' that some tribunal should deal with the matter, and that the public would he prepared to pay a sufficient wage. The milways Wt>re the only place of employ­ment ¥<here the employees could go on 'trike or the employers decide upon a lock­out :1s they pleased, and that should be avoided by the appointment of a competent and independent tribunal to fix the rates of wag{'S and conditions of employment.

'rhe SECRETARY FOR RAILW_\YS: The han. member for Cairns said the strike which o~curred on the Cloncurrc· railway con,tructwn works, that was 01 the line from Cloncurry to ;}1ount Cuthb0rt, was due to a dispute about wages. He interjected that such WI>' not the cas<>, As a matter of fact, that 'trike was not ovu a dispute about wage~, but was brought about bv th" organisers of the Australian \Vo;kers' Asso.:iation, who went to the' resident €'U­

gin.::l'?T and said there '':"Jre thr :>e or four men '''Orking on that job who had not union i'icket", and the men then said they would tako time off ; they did not s.ty they were goi,,g on s"rike. That was some three weeks b;Joro Christmas last year. Afte;· Chrictmas the men h·-ld a meeting and \\ere prepared to go back to work. but their organi(er went to Cloncurry and told them that t!wy had not held thBir meeting in accordance with the rules of the organisation, and that they were not to go b;,Jk to work unless they we_re paid lls. a day. 'l'he men were being pa1d 10s. a day. The rule of the department was that men employed on con,·truction works in the South should lw naid Ss. a day ; the men employed on oonstruction works on the coast, in H1e Centre, and thP North. g_,_ a day ; and the mPn employed in the \Vc,t, lOe, a day: Rnd thoPc had been the rates paid ever since the inauguration of the pre,ent policy of railway construc­tion h·o years ago. There were other people to be considered in connection >vith

railway construction besides the men em­ployed on that work. These railways were constructed under thf' 1906 Act, certain esti­mates of the cost had been made, and the people in the railway districts had to bear the responsibility of guaranteeing 3 per cpnt. on the cost of construction. It was a Yery easy matter for members opposite to say that the wagu of the men should be incre-ased ; and it was particularly ensy for members who had not the rP9!JOnsibility of ilnding the money. After the men came out on strike, and before he received the tele­gram< from thE> hon. member for Chillagoe asking for lOs. a day, he had given spcmiic instructions that the men employed on the ::'viount :Y1ulligan line should be paid 10". per day.

::\Ir. THE;JDOR:C: ThG instructions were not follcm £d.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Tho mea went out on strike simply because the Au -tralian \Yorkers' Association said ther~' was to b(' no piecework.

:Y1r. THEODORE: You seem to be obsessed with that idea.

The, SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: There was no obsession about it. He was <'iYing the hon. member plain, hard facts. ifhc han. member for Cairns knew perfectly w<:>ll that by adopting the piecework system

the men on tho Cloncurry-Mount [10 p.m.] Cuthbert line earned a great deal - more than 10,. a day ; and the

Railw;,y Department desired to offer the same conditions t•> the men on the Mount :Mulligan line if thev desired to avail them· selves of them, but the union stepped in and said they would not allow them to do any piecework at all.

Mr. THEODORE : The men turm,d down th<> proposal the-mselves with scorn.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS' The han. member did not like to hear the hard facts. It was immaterial to tha de­partment whether the me~ accepted. th<> wages which were current m the Ra1lway Department in that district or whether they accepted piecework. Pers<;mally, he would like to see thcl<l accept p1eeework, beca~se they could earn more money than by takmg day wages.

Mr. :\lcCon~L\CK : You '-rant to gBt ch:'0ap work.

The P.ECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The hon. member knew that that was not so. In no shape <'r form had the depa':t­mcnt att,·-mpkd to cut down the rates pa1d fe-<· piece••·ork. The bon. member also knew tha+ the men e:.rned from 14s. to 17s. a day ;•t pi;·~ework on the Clonourry-Mount Cuth­DE'l't 11ne.

Mr. THEODORB: The men there are sooth­ing y·ith disratisfaction.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS ' If there >vas di,dati.sfaction, he had not heard of iL and he was not awa;e of !lilY dicMtisfaction on the Monnt Mulligan !me.

Mr. THEODOI\E: We h,lse had the greatest difficulty in keeping the men from striking.

The SECRET ArtY FOR RAILWAYS : H.e had alwa"s taken the word of the hon. ~embers for Chillagoe and Cairns that they did not desire to sec strikes on railw:ty con­struction works, but somA of the union ofiicialc; were evidentlv not of their opinion. He dicl not know whether they desired that men should be idle or not, but he should:

Hon. W. T. l'aget.]

808 Railways Bill. (ASSEMBLY.) Railways Bill.

have thought it was better for the men to be at work, as they could then provide more funds for the union, because, if they were n_ot at work, they could not take out union tickets. The han. member for Chillagoe could not deny that, before his teleo-ram reached him (Mr. Paget) in connection "with the wages on the Mount Mulligan line, he had given instructions that an extra ls. a day should be added to the day wages; but, m sp1te of that, bNmuse some of the men desired to do piecework, the men were all called out. The hon. member for Cairns said he considered it was advisable that there should be an outside tribunal to con­trol thP wages and conditions, especially in connection with railway construction works; but he would point out to the han. member that the subclause the han. member was referring to applied to the whole of the wages throughout the railway service. He did not think it was advisable that any out­side tribunal should say what wages or con­ditions bhould be given in the public ser­vioo. There was an outside tribunal in New South Wales, which had been dealing with the wages of railway employees, with the result that the Commissioner said some few weeks ago that, owing to the conditions that were imposed upon him, the railways were not paying their way. Evidently an outsid€} tribunal was not able to prevent strikes in the department E'ither, because quite a large number of men at Darling Harbour went on strike, and practically held up the goods traffio of New South Wales for some days. The men went on strike in spite of the out­side tribunal. That House controlled the expenditure of the Railway Department as well as of other departments, and he thought that House was the best wages board the men could have. •

Mr. THEODORE: The Secretary for Rail­ways made some reference to the cause of the strike that occurred among the men em­ployed on the Mount Cuthbert linD. The men knocked off work lx>cause of some grievanoes from which they were suffering. One of the things that led up to the dispute between them and the resident engineer was the fact that there wer<' a number of men employed who m,1de themselves obnoxious to the other men. Bnt tho principal i'sue was the qu~stion of wages. A considerable pe,·iod before that the wages in the district. ior similar work had been raieed to lls. and lh. 6d. a day. For outside work on the sur­fp~o lb. 6d. a day was being paid.

The SECRETARY ron RAILWAYS: You were talking of the Mount )Jullig,•cn line.

Mr. THEODORE: IIe was speaking of the Mount Cuthb-rt line. The han. gentle­man s ,;d tho dispute 1: ~ s not dne to "ages at all.

The SECRETARY FOR R\ILWAYS: Not th,,n.

Mr. THEODORE: He quite admitted that there was :,: disput.• obout a few men who made thoP:sdves particularly obno-,ious.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL WAYS : Boca usn thPy had :.ot union tickets.

Mr. THEODORE: But the principal issue '''"'" the question of wages. The han. gen­tleman knew quite well that the men refused to work after Chri,tmas because the depart­ment refused to give them lls. a day.

The SEICRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Didn't they hold a meeting and agree by a majority to go to work?

[Ron. W. T. Paget.

Mr. THEODORE: No; they decided not to resume work. That waf\, why the work was not resumed. No doubt, that was only one of a number of similar instances. In connection with thB Mount Mulligan Railway, the date of commencement of the construction was spoken about some months before it was started, and the men had asked him to wait on the Commissioner to point out that there has been an increase in that district for the class of work cimilar to that on the railv, ay construction. rrhe Comrni~sioner ¥.-'aS not there, but he asked the secretary what the intention of tho department was with regard to paying for the work on that ],ne, and Mr. Crowther said thev would pay the cbssi­fication rate of 9s. "He (Mr. Theodore) pointnd out that the rate for North Queens­land had been increased to lOs. It was as early as March la~c that he had had this interview, and when he went North the men had commenced work at 9s., and they asked him to wire to the Minister.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Yes, and before I got your wire I authorised lOs.

Mr. THEODORE: The hou. gentleman had informed him of that, and the matter was rectified. But the men were confronted with another difficulty. Tho han. gentleman had probably instructed th~ n >ident engineer to circumvent his position by letting the work on piecework. They found that the work which had been done on dav h 1x,ur -,.Yas to L, done on pioco,vork. ""

'fhc SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Only if the men cksired.

Mr. THEODUB,E: The men had no other option at that time. ),fter the han. gentle­man's wire cume to him that the rate for day labour on that '•I ark was to bu lOs., they could not get their job back, but they 'vere offered piecework. The n1en were naturally inceneed when they saw the Minis­ter was evidently trying to evade the payment of the rnling 'rate. He assured the han. gentleman that that W,c$ lhe fec·ling which inspired the men noti to take np work. 'l,here was no outside pr(-·,ure brought to bear on them whatevu; they decided whatmer action they took for then,selvcs on the spot.

'I' he SECHETARY FOR RAnW \YS: Is it nc>t the intention of tlw unio1F, 1 , abolisl1 piece­work?

l\1r. THEODORE: 'l'he union was operat­ing in 1nany centr-t1 -i where piec.rn ork was pre' alent, and there was no difiiculty about it in the ,,ugm industry. The point ruised by the hon. m.!n1bur for {;air:'s ,,,'J'1 a very importa:1t one, aad s;wuld b~ cc ··.idercd by the Hou:, -~. Almas~ evcr.v tirrh_•, 1 .-·rp a line started in a new dis' rid "here there had be~n an in,.,r< ;~ sc in "<..he rulinrr r ~ tc for na vrv work, there >cemed to be -&Dill'' difficulty with the deparrment, which F2\med to lag behind in anc incre, se in In 1910, ,,·her wurk was progressinc: on Atherton-Ev2lyn line, the \YOrk \: n brirc.," vid for at the rate of Bs. 6d. a day, 1Yh·lfl the ruling race in the district was 9s.

Tho bell indic:tt€-d tha-~ porjo:n i.-f the hoa. nH :nber'& time had c.....-:pin:d.

Mr. THEODOICE would ta'<c further time. The men v:f'nt out on strik.P, a11d remained out for three man: 110 be for~ gct!ing 9s. a da:·. On th0 Towns,illc to Inphum line there "·as also a dispute•. There were half a dozen instJ,nces in connection V1 .ith raihvav "\vork in Queensland during the last three vcars where men had to take drastic action. Simply because the department said here we:s the classification rate, the ::Ylini"ter put this argll-

Railways Bill. [5 AUGUST.] Railways Bill. 809

ment up against them. Hon. members were .communicated with ny the men and waited upon the Commissioner, who sai'd he sympa­thised with them, and that the railways should pay the best wages possible, but that he was bound by the clacsification rates of the department and could not depart from them. The men had no alternative but to sav thev would not work for that rate. In" 1911 durmg the heavy rainfall in North Queens~ land, and between the hovy slips which uccnrred on the Cairns Railway, large num­bers of mPn were employed there, and the classification rate was 9s.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Did I not raiH} it when I went there?

Mr. THEODORE: The men were threaten­ing to strike; they h"d bGen working for that for six 11eeks, and they had to cease work in connection with the No. 10 tunnel­they were employed at 9s. a day. and thev 'had struck work for half a day before word came that the increase asked for was given. H outside tribunals Increased wa~res for the same class of work in ·a· district, the Commis­sic:ner should fall .mto hne and adopt that mm1mum. If he d1d not do that, it was best for the House to put the matter in the hands of an outside tribunal. It was no argument to tell the men that the classification rates in Queemland prevailed for all time; it was after all, merely a subt"rfur;e, because th~ ·department gave way and granted the increase notwithstanding. The Min:stcr should see the wisdom of not placing this difficulty on the shoulders of the Commissioner. He was quite sure the Commissioner did not lilw to be haggling on every occasion when new works started ~s to the wage tho ~en should get, but desm:~cl to pay the rulmg rate in th" .district. • -

ThE> SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I am <1fraid the people in the railway districts \voulct have to takG more responsibility th<1n they do.

Mr. THEODORE : He hoped the Minister auld give consideration to the proposition. Mr. McCOR:\L\CK would like the Minis-

ter to put his mind back six months before the trouble occurred on the Mount Cuthbert line · he referred to the building of the Malbo{,_ to Duchess line, in connection with which sev<;ral members had waited upon him to get an mcrease from lOs. to lOs. lOd. which was being paid by the mining compa~ies for the sam., class of work. The men returned to

· work on the Mount Cuthbert line because the Commissioner sa'id he had let a long contract, and that the man 1\ho took the contract could pay .the ruling rate if he liked. That >vas the unclet·~tun?ing. He was there, and ,attended thf\ ll1CC'ting, and ~he n_._·L:l r· :used piec'-'Work, and th('y rl'fu · Dd t;1e off'-~r of 19s. a day \Vhich 'vr.s ll'-n<: . .) by tbn Conlmi~­rwnoncr, and preferred to remain on strike sooner tLan accept the 1(1,_ per dav. In regard to the mat+e,· v:hich had been r~ferred to ?~- the hc;m. rnJembcr for Chillagoe on the Ca~rns Railway, he would point out tlu:t he happened to be in ch<1rge of the ~tnkc, and f ~n in th, CdirnJ district, tha.t wa~ below the range, 9r. 1'' r day was the rulmv rntc, but c:tJ!l tL.e Railwav IJcnccrt­ment only paid 2':. per da:;. ·The ·,non !:Lpproached tho late C ommi· ·imwr, and the mat.t•'r was sidc-step:>ed f<c fully ,cix months, and to g-et th. '·.anoe rate o{ wa.g~ that "'a,, paid bv private cmployere the m.;:n had to wait. till tho departmc'nt was in a <:crner. Tho whole com,nunication waR blocked with thB bwk c··mntry, and after .t:he men w:'re on strike for eight or ten hours

the Commissioner agreed to give 9s. a day . That condition of affairs should not be allowed to operate, and yet it was operating on every occasion. The Hon. the Minister should consider some idea for fixing tho rates. He knew men in the Railway Department who were only getting 4s. 9d. "' day, and he was sure if the position of those men came

• before a ages board they would get an incr,ase in wages. Why shou:d not the poorly-paid State ('mployees ·get just the eamo consideration as the highly-paid officials received? IV ere they not just as important as the highly-paid officials? Just as im­portant; but still hon. members opposite rdu:·ed to give the men in the lower-paid branchc• of the service an impartial judge to fix the rate of wages and conditions of employment. The members who were sup­porting the Liberal party wer!} always talk­ing about the pioneers. 'Who were the pio­neers but the men who constructed the rail­ways, and still on every occasion the Liberal party said, " Speed them up. If they want an increase, let them strike for it, and let th<·nl rmnain six months on strike sooner than give thorn tlw ruling- rate in the dis­trio'." and then thev said Parliament was the proper placc1 to· fix tho raoe of wages. The men who worked on cou-truction work wry rarely stayed long enough to get any privilege,, nnd those men had to put up with bad living, wet w()ath n·, -and lo.3s of time. If the Minister went to th,· trouble to make up th<: aYerage wages of the men employed on raih,..ty construction works, ho would be surprised at the low 1.:1-tc of wage• they received per annum.

Tho bell indicated that the hon. member's second portion of time had expired .

Mr. McCORMACK said he would take a furtlwr five minute-s. Those m0n wero doing very important work in cunnoction with the opLling up of ti.c country, and they were never gi.-· n ·my COD"idcration. On the only occasio~u-~ they 1\ t'rc rnentioneU in the House they were mentioned in the light of speedin,; up. Lately the Comrni,·,ioner had bhen making some arrang-ements to get food eartf'd to them at a cheaper rate, but only quito recently. In the Cloncurry dictrict waq the first occasion that that had been done, but there were plenty of arrangements rnarle for stopping their wa;:cs. He would like the 11ini~ ter to give FC'l~lo assurance that he v:oulcl con·icler tho question of c qtablishing o.n impartial tribunal if onl;r £nr construc:icn \Yor1c Over £2,000,000 a year v;,•;e being sp:·nt on that class of work, and why ·>hould thu men not have the same ri;;ht tc. haTe th.~ir wn.r·es fixu~ })y a tribun~l as men in the other industrie:,? Only the oth0r day t;1o Mount Morgan ~11ining Com­pa·ty "'-gre.·d to pay 6d. a day J,.ore than \V.1S l'"id by th" Co _nnissioncr for Rail­ways. In nvN·y part of Qu·•eml:: · d that ''as h:.cppening, and s~ ill thP:: Ltd tho same old argument. If the ~~l:!nistt r v,ould givn them " trib.Jina! it would b,; P'!iiiciNtt arKu­ment for the Com:•lis .. ionPr to say that when he si"' rb,,,l a r -tihvnv in anv district he would t:rivn t~~-') ustwl· rate of ·, .. agLs.

llrr. E. B. C. CORSER said that it was interc,ting to hear hon. members opposite advrc::~te th0 P'tablishnwnt of a wag~c; board for the raih\av sr·rvice, :1nd ••.hnn the oppor­tunity v. as offered to them in 1907, no less than seven members now sitting on that side of the House voted absolutely ag'fiinst it.

Mr. McCoRMACK : I never said a wages hoard; I su.id a tribunal.

Mr. E. B. C, Corser.]

810 [COUNCIL.] Acting Ghaaman of Committees.

Mr. K H. C. CORSER: You mentioned a. wages board.

Mr. McCORli!ACK: I said a tribunal, which i.~ a very different thing.

3.1 r. E. l \. C. CORSEn: A wages board as advocatr·d in 1907, and it was knocked

out by hon. members sitting opposite, and no ,cttrmpt was made when the Industrial Pv1cv Biil ,, .. a, bc·fore the House to get the railway senwe brought in unaN that 1ncasurc.

11r. \VIN3HXLEY: Yon aro entire!;· wrong.

:ifr. E. B. C. CORSER: If hon. members ou]d lc:.-,k at " Hansard " for 1907, pages

682 and CS5, Lhey would ""'" tlw nature of 1 h~, Inot.iun pro post d, and also tho division list, and in thd list the n:;nws oi Mr. Adamson, :'.1r. l~uber, Mr. Bowman, Mr. Hunter, l\olr. Lannon, :Mr. May, Mr. O'Sulli­van, and l\t1r. Payne appeared in thr ... c• wh1) oppos-ed it.

Mr. Bo\v:.:.Ax: niYl' tho reason.

l\fr. E. B C'. CORSER oaid the n>;teon 1'\ as not giYen. \Yhat justification v, -1s therp

to turn down a wage' board for [10.30 p.m.] t}w 1'1 ilway ""·vice at tint t.imc

when they h~Hl un op:tJOl·tunit,r­of votivv for it? If thev had voted for it it. woulci h:1ve been carr'ied. If thoru ·.vas no 12-a-un wh:- they ;hould l·e brought under n \-:'age·7.1 Leard at that tiJu.(', t herr_, Yras no H'&'>on for it no\v.

Mr. THEODORE rose to spettk. 'I'he CHAIRMAN : Tho hon. membPr has

~poken tlnec times on this question. Mr. THEODORE: I only spoke twice. I

rose and spoke and you rang the bell, and I took another five minutes.

The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member has spoken three times.

The House resumed. The CHAIR1!A~ re­ported progress, and the Committee obtained INn·e to sit again to-morrow.

PERSONAL EXPLAN.\TION. Mr. GRANT (F'itNoy): I desire to make a

personal explanation. Th,· SPEAKBR: Io it the pleaoure of the

House that the hon. member b,, allowed to make a porsunal 0xplannion?

HONOURABLE MEJ!BERS: Hear, hoar !

Mr. GRANT: I thank the House for its indulgence. In spc ·tking on the sepMation question on Thursday last I said that I had received circular, but I had not been con­sulted bef(:tC thE' circular wa'J drdted or before it wets taken into consideration at all. That speech y, as &<'nt up to tho Rook­harnpton "Record," and it shv'Bd th~Jt I had denied having received that circular. As me1nhe.cs list:r•ning to me here virill romem~

·ber, I di,finctly stated that I recei>ed the circular. I would not have taken this opportunity of rnfPering to the matt-or had not a member who was si+tinp: here at the time writ:i"l to th" " Record '' and practi­cally sc:ltcd that I w,:s hlling lies-that I denied having received the circular. I admifj_ed having r' ,- in·d t1w ci:·.;uln.r, but I was wrong·ly reported. and that message was wrongly transmitted to Rockhampton.

Mr. \DAMSON: I beg to ask kave to reply to that stnrement .. I would like to make a personal explanatwn. Th~ SPEAKER: Order!

[Mr. B. B. G. Corser.

ADJOURNMENT.

The PREMIER : I beg to move that this­House do now adjourn.

Mr. ADAMSON: Mr. Speaker,-Has a. member of this House a right to make a personal explanation and accuse another member of telling lies, and that member to· have no right to speak in reply?

The SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. ADAMSON: Have I no right to reply

to the hon. member?

The SPEAKER: Order! This House never refuses to allow a member to make a personal explanation, but the sense of the House wiil see that a debate cannot originate out of a personal explanation. I cannot allow the hon. member for Rook­hampton to reply to the hon: men;tber for Fitzroy. If on further consideratiOn, the hon. memb~r feels that it is nece~sary ~or him to make a personal explanatiOn with regard to any statement which has b~n made in this House, I am sure that the House will grant him Pf'l'n;tissi~n. At the present juncture, however, m view of the fact that I have no knowle.clge that he was accused, I cannot .allow him. to .make. any reply to the personal expl<>natiOn JUSt gtven.

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear r The PREMIER : I beg to move that~ the

House do now adjourn. The first busmess to-morrow will be the initiation of the Jury Bill in Committee, and after that t!lc second reading of the Criminal Code Btl.!. Af~er that we will proceed with tho consideratiOn of the Railways Bill in Committee.

Qu0stion. put and passed.

The House adjourned at twenty-five minutes to 11 o'clock.