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DALEMINAMIINTERVIEWTHESOULOFAMERICAKUNHARDTFILMFOUNDATIONDaleMinamiCivilRightsAttorneyJune7,2019InterviewedbyKatieDavisonTotalRunningTime:1hour,3minutesSTARTTC:01:00:00:00BackgroundandconnectiontoFredKorematsu’scase

01:00:08:16

DALEMINAMI:

MynameisDaleMinami,Iwasinvolvedinthecasethatoverturnedhis

conviction,Ihadalsoreadaboutthesecases,theKorematsucase,landmark

casethatalllawstudentsreadinlawschool.Myparentswerevictimsofthe

governmentincarcerationofJapanese-AmericanssoIknewthisfroma

personpointofviewandalegalpointofview.

PearlHarborandtheracismthatledtotheJapanese-Americanincarceration

01:00:36:09

DALEMINAMI:

December7th,1941theimperialforcesofJapanattackedtheUnitedStatesat

PearlHarbor,andthatdayofinfamy,asPresidentRooseveltcallsit,leadto

yearsofinfamywiththeimprisonmentofJapanese-Americanssuspectedof

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beingspiesandsaboteurs.Under20,000AmericansofJapaneseancestry

werebanishedfromtheirhomes,takentothenetherregionsofthiscountry,

imprisonedforindefiniteperiodsoftime,withoutanydueprocessrightsto

anattorney,righttoahearing,righttoanoticeofcharges.Theylivedin

abysmalconditionsforyears.ThestorybeginsbeforePearlHarborbecause

theyearsofracismthatwasvisiteduponChinese-Americansandthen

Japanese-Americanswasbegunyearsbefore,100yearsbefore.Sothewhole

settingoftheincarcerationwasprestagedbytheracismthatafflictedAsian

Americans,sothetimewasripeforthatracismandtheriversofracismto

overflow.Andthecountrywaspredisposedtobehostileandantagonisticto

Japanese-Americanssoitwasn’tadifficultmoveforthemtoclaimthat

Japanese-Americanswerespiesanddangerous.

01:02:14:18

TheincarcerationofJapanese-Americanswasnotanaberration.Ithadbegun

yearsandyearsagowiththeadventofChinesetothiscountrywhowere

welcomeinitiallyascheaplaborandeventuallybecamethesubjectof

hostilityandantagonism.Theywereseparatedinschools,theyweredenied

certainoccupations,therewereactuallynching’s,killings,burningoftheir

communities,andfinallyin1882thefirstImmigrationActagainstanyethnic

groupwaspassedagainstChinesefromcomingintothiscountry.Intothat

void,becauseChinesecouldnotcome,JapanesewererecruitedfromJapan,

andtheybothinheritedthegoodwilloftheChineseatthestartandinherited

theantagonismlateronastheydevelopedtheirownfarms,because

competitivetonon-Asianfarmers,sothesecondImmigrationActwaspassed

tobanJapanesein1924.Sothatwholesettingofracismordiscrimination

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againsttheseAsianswasastagefortheincarcerationofJapanese-Americans.

Therewere,wholecommunitieswereburneddown.Theyweredenied

occupationswiththestate,segregated,theywerenotallowedtoownlandas

immigrants,andthatwasn’tchangeduntilthe60’s.Theycouldn’tmarry

outsidetheirrace,thatwasillegal,miscegenation.Theyalsosuffereda

numberofotherlegal,theyalsosufferedlegaldiscriminationinotherareas.

Minami’sfamilybackground

01:04:04:05

DALEMINAMI:

Mygrandparentscamehereintheearly1900sfromthesouthofJapanwhere

manyJapanesecamebecausetheywerefarmers,awholehostofhistorical,

societalandculturalconditions.TheythoughtliketheChinesetheywould

stayforalittlewhile,pickupthegoldbricksthatthestreetsweremadeof,

returnhomeandlivelikekings,andessentiallyweresoldabillofgoods

becausetheywerethenrelegatedtotherailroads,mining,themostmenial

conditionsinordertosurvive.TheyspokeJapanese,soIcouldn’t

communicatewiththem,andpartofthatreasonisgrowingupasathird-

generation,myparentswereborninSouthernCalifornia.Theydiscouraged

usfromknowingmuchaboutJapan,beingtoo“Japanese,”becausethatwould

beasignthatweweretoovulnerable.So,wenevertalkedaboutthose,the

imprisonment,wedidn’ttalkabouttheinjustice,wedidn’ttalkaboutthe

hardshipstheywentthrough.Theydidn’tliketotalkaboutthoseissues.In

ordertoassimilateandbecomepartofthisgreatAmericancell,howeveryou

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wanttocallit,theyfelttheyhadtoomuchtrappingsofbeingJapanesewasa

deficit,wassomethingthatyoudidnotwanttodotocallattentionto

yourself.WhileweoccasionallyateJapanesefood,wewereprettymuch

encouragedtobeasCaucasianaswecouldasquote“American”aswecould.

AndIthinkasonecommentatormentioned,theywerelikerapevictims.This

wasnotsomethingpleasanttotalkabout,thiswasahorriblesituation,a

terribleinjustice.Toacountry,byacountrytheyloved.Forthemitwas,they

wouldratherleavethatinthepast,thedarkrecessesoftheirmindsandtry,

inasensetoprotectuspsychologicallyandintermsofourfuturecareersas

well.

ExecutiveOrder9066

01:06:09:18

DALEMINAMI:

PresidentRooseveltonFebruary19,1942signedexecutiveorder9066

whichdelegatedtothemilitarycommanderofthewestUnitedStates,

GeneralJohnL.DeWitttomakesuchordersappropriate.Congress,withina

dayortwo,passedPublicLaw503whichmadeitacrimetodisobeya

militaryorder.It’samilitaryorderthatwasyettobeissuedsoitwasallvery

stagedandcoordinated.Thenthemilitarycommander,JohnL.DeWittorders

acurfewofallalienGermans,ItaliansandallJapanese,whethercitizensor

not.ThatledtoanexclusionactthatwasaimedatJapanese,whetheryouare

Americancitizenornot,wheretheyhadtoleavetheirhomes,theyhadto

reporttowhattheycalled“temporaryassemblycenters”whichformy

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parentswastheSantaAnitaracetrackswheretheylivedinhorsestalls,with

horsemanureonthewallandhayontheground.Andthentheyweremoved

andtransportedacrossthecountrytoruralArkansasoroneofthetenother

designatedcampsforJapanese-Americans.So,thatwastheyearsofinfamyI

mentioned.YearsofinfamyforJapanesetohavenothingtodowithPearl

HarborandyetbetakenawaywithouttheirrightstotheseGodforsaken

placesinthiscountryforindefiniteconfinement.

01:07:49:01

TheexecutiveorderdidnotrefertoJapaneseatall,anditwasasomewhat

commonexperienceforJapanese-Americans.IfyoulookattheAlienLand

Act,whichprohibitedessentiallyJapaneseandChineseimmigrantsfrom

owningland,itwaswrittenneutrally.JustliketheMuslimban,whichdoes

notspecificallytalkaboutMuslimsorArabs,theexecutiveorderwaswritten

neutralonitsface.Itwassoobviousthattheseappliedtoaspecificgroup,

andit’ssoobviousthatitwastheresult,tomymindatleast,ofsomekindof

discrimination.Andyettonameatargetedgroupwouldundoubtedlyaffect

theeffectivenessofthatparticularorder.Ifyoucouplethatwithcontextual

circumstances,theracismexhibitedbyGeneralJohnL.DeWitt,thepublic

opinionatthetimeagainstJapaneseforexample,youcouldfigureoutif

you’renotanidiotthatthisappliestoJapanese-Americans.

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GermansandItaliansnotbeingmassivelyincarceratedlikeJapanese-Americans

01:09:03:19

DALEMINAMI:

WewereatwarwithGermanyandItaly,soitwasobvioustherewerepeople

inthosecommunitiesthatwouldbesuspectaswell.TheFBIhadfileson

prettymuchallofthefolkstheydetermineddangerous,sosomeofthose

folkswereroundedup,buttheyweren’ttakeninmasslikeJapanesewere,

whichincludedcitizens.Ithinkifyoulookback,that’swhythathistoryof

racismcomesintoplaybecauseyoudidn’thavehistoryofracismforthat

manyyearsagainstGermansorItalians,andsecondlyifyoulookathow

AmericaorthiscountryhastreatedAsians,asexotic,asinscrutable,

unknowable,asunassimilable—andthat’skindofacodewordusedinmany

contextstojustifydiscriminatorytreatment—youcanunderstandthat

Japanese-Americansweresingledout.Theywerenotwellknown;theydidn’t

havequote“Europeancustoms”thatwereapassforGermansandItalians

nottobetakeninmass.

J.EdgarHooveropposingExecutiveOrder9066

01:10:17:08

DALEMINAMI:

Themilitaryhaddirectauthoritytoissuetheseordersofbanishmentand

exclusion,buttherewereopponentswithinthegovernment.Membersofthe

JusticeDepartmentdidnotfeelthatthiswasrightorfairornecessary.EvenJ.

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EdgarHoover,whoisnofriendofcivilrights,wasagainsttheexclusion.He

declared,“Ihavefilesoneverybodyinthiscountrysowedon’thavetotake

awaythesepeopleasanentireracialorethnicgroup,wecanidentifythe

dangerousones.”Therewasresistancewithinthegovernment,buttheir

voicesweredrownedout.

EarlWarrenandpoliticsbehindExecutiveOrder9066

01:11:00:06

DALEMINAMI:

Partofitispurepolitics,andthat’swhereEarlWarrencuthisteethandgot

hispowerbase,bydeclaringthatJapanese-Americansweredangerous,and

oneofhisfamouscommentswas,“Thefactthatnosabotagehasoccurredisa

disturbing,thatmeansthatitisprobablygoingtooccurbyJapanese-

Americans”whichisofcourseillogical.Buttherewereelectionsduringthat

periodoftime,EarlWarrenwasveryambitious,aswerealotofpoliticians.

Therewasalsowarhysteria,therewasracism,andifyoucombineallthose

elements,allthosedifferentfactors,you’repointingtowardsacivilrights

disaster.

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Thepoliticsoffear

01:11:50:13

DALEMINAMI:

Ithinkthepoliticsoffearhavebeenastapleofprettymucheverycountry,I

wouldn’tjustsingleouttheUnitedStates.Feardrivespeopletodothingsand

getsotherpeopleelected,andthat’shappeninginEuropetoday,forexample.

So,Ithinkit’saverycommonprinciplethatweshouldnotbesurprisedat,

butweshouldbeverycarefulwhenfearisusedasamotivatingforcefor

electedofficialsaspartoftheirplatform.That’sdivisive,that’sdangerousand

thatleadstotheseterribleconclusionsandactionsbythegovernment.

FDRandwhitesupremacyduringtheJapanese-Americanincarceration

01:12:32:19

DALEMINAMI:

Ifyouread“ByOrderOfThePresident,”it’sabookbyaguynameGreg

Robinson,FDRwasessentiallyawhitesupremacist.Hewasaeugenics

devotee.HefeltJapanese-Americanswereunassimilable,andyethe

suppressedalotofthoseopinions,andtobefairhedidhavesomevery

complimentaryviewsofJapanese,butIthinkhewasveryisolated.He’sin

WashingtonD.C.,allthisstuffishappeninginCaliforniawherethegrowers,

thefarmersaredemandingtheousterofJapanesebecausetheywere

competition,politiciansarescreamingfortheirincarceration,soIthinkhe

wasprettyisolated.IfhiswifeEleanorwerePresidentthiswouldnever

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happen,becauseshewasverymuchmoresympatheticandunderstandingof

thehumantragedythatwasabouttounfold.

Conditionsoftheincarcerationcamps

01:13:38:21

DALEMINAMI:

Thecampswerenotcamps,theywereprisons.Theywerebarbedwireonthe

outside,gunsandguardstationswithgunspointedin.Commonlatrines

withoutdoors,thefoodwasterrible,inadequatemedicalcare.Theywere

placedinsomeoftheworstlocationsyouneverwanttovisitbecauseitwas

veryhotandhumidinthesummer,coldinthewinter.IwasinManzanara

monthago,andwhileitwasfairlybenign,itwasstill90degrees,anditwas

fortunatebecausethewindwasn’thowlingandthrowingsandeverywhere.

Theylivedindustybarracks,twotothreefamiliesatatime,therewere

cracksinthewalls,sotheyhadtostuffnewspaperintostopthewindfrom

blowingin.Theyhadnopersonalfreedom.SoIthinksomeoftheworst

damagewasnotjustthephysicaldifficultyoflivingintheseconditions,itwas

theabjecthumiliation,theshamethatwasimposeduponthesepeople.The

lossofdignity,isasubjectivenotion,thelossofdignityisoneofthemost

devastatingthingsyoucanexperienceasanindividual,especiallyina

countrythatclaimstovalueindividualfreedom.

01:15:05:00

Thegovernmenttriedtosellthisasmodelcitieswherepeoplehaveenough

toeat,theyplaybaseball.So,they’rejustshowingaverysmallsliceofhow

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badtheseconditionswere.Andaspartoftheproofofthat,DorothyLangthe

famousphotographer,wascommissionedtotakephotographsoftheprisons,

andherpictureswerenotflattering—theyshowedterribleconditions,

peopleinmisery.Sothosephotographsweresuppresseduntilthislastyear,

2018,whentheywereopenedupandyoucouldseethatthereisanotherside

tothestoriesthegovernmentwastryingtoselltotheAmericanpublic.The

storiesthattheyweresellingwasthatwe’redoingthisfortheirprotection,

they’relivingingreatconditions,theygetthreemealsaday.Andthatreally

didselltotheAmericanpublic.Tothisday,theysay,“Welltheywereluckyto

beinthesecamps,”whentheywerereallyprisons.“Theydidn’thavetowork,

threemeals,greatmedicalcare,”andyethowmuchdoyoupayforthelossof

liberty?Howmuchisthatworthtoyou?Isitworththreemealsaday?Idon’t

thinkso.Truthfullytheconditionswereabysmalanddismal.Itwasanawful

placetobe,notonlyinthegeographiclocations,butinthetypeoflifestyle,

services,amenitiesyoucouldhavewhenyoulivedathomeinLosAngelesor

Seattle,WashingtonorSanFrancisco,andnowyou’vegottoliveinthese

barracksinterribleconditions.Ithinkthoseconditionswerenotwellknown

totheAmericanpublicpartlybecauseofthepropaganda,sofolksthought

thesefolkswerelucky.Whattheydidn’tshowverymuch,theydidn’tshow

barbedwireinanyofthose,orthegunspointingin,sotheylooklike,quote

“camps.”

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Japanese-Americanssuppressingwhathappenedtothem

01:17:16:02

DALEMINAMI:

Japanese-Americanwhentheylefttheprisonsinthemid40sdidnotwantto

talkaboutthis,sotherewasverylittleliterature,verylittlecommentary

aboutwhathappenedtothem.Therewerelegalissuesthatwerepublicized,

buttheyreallywantedtogobacktotheirhomestorebuildtheirlives.They

feltthattheydidn’thavetimetodwellontheseterribleinjustices.Theyhad

tomakealiving,hadtoraisetheirfamilies.So,allofthatwassuppressedfor

yearbytheJapanese-Americancommunityuntilthecivilrightsmovement.

Thecivilrightsmovementsparkedaninterest,ignitedtheimaginationof

Japanese-Americanstodiscoverwhatreallyhappened.ThatledJapanese-

Americansdownthatpathtoself-discovery,tofindingtheirvoices,totalking

aboutwhathappened,towritingaboutwhathappened,tothepointthat

manyinthatcommunitywhowereterriblyoutragedbecausetheyhad

suppressedallthatangerandbitternessforyears,andnowpeoplewere

writingaboutitandtalkingaboutit,whenAfrican-Americanswhoblazedthe

pathforJapanese-Americanstobegintalkingaboutcivilrightsandwrongs,

thatJapanese-Americansbegantoopenup,andmoreinformationbecame

availabletothepublicatthattime.

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HowMinamilearnedabouttheJapanese-AmericanIncarceration

01:18:55:08

DALEMINAMI:

I’vereadaboutthecasesandtheincarceration,oneparagraphinhighschool,

alittlebit,fiveparagraphsincollege,andwhenIreadtheKorematsucasein

highschool,itsparkedaninteresttounderstandingwhatreallyhappened,

becauseitwasatthesametimethethirdworldstrikeswereexplodinginthe

country,andthosestrikespartofthegoalwastodiscoveryourtruehistory.

AsIlearnedmoreaboutwhathappenedtoJapanese-Americans,themoreI

realizedthatthiswasaterriblecivilrightstragedy.Atthatpointmyinterest

wassparkedandthenItaughtatBerkeleyandlearnedmoreandmore

becauseIhadtolearnthematerialstobeabletoteachtheclasses.That

probablyputmeontheroadtonotjustself-discovery,butdiscoveryin

relationshiptothiscountry’shistory.

CasebackgroundforFredKorematsu,MinYasuiandGordonHirabayashi

01:20:00:04

DALEMINAMI:

Theoriginalcasesbeginin1942and‘43andalawyernamedErnestBessig

fromtheNorthernCaliforniachapteroftheAmericanCivilLibertiesUnion

approachedFredandaskedhimifhewouldbeatestcase,andFredwhowas

reallyupsetaboutbeingimprisonedandabouttobeexcludedagreedtodo

this.SoACLUpreparedatestcaseforFred.Fredchallengedtheexclusion

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anddetentionofJapanese-Americans.Hiscasewenttoappealwithtwoother

Japanese-Americanswhochallengedthemilitaryorders,GordonHirabayashi

andMinYasuiinSeattleandPortland,respectively.Fred’scasewasheardin

SanFrancisco,andeventuallyallthreecasesfoundtheirwaytotheSupreme

Courtin1943.Fred’scasewassentbackdowntothe9thCircuitandthis

wholerecord,thiswholejourneyofthosethreecaseswasmanipulatedby

theSupremeCourt.Itwasacontroversialsetofcases,soGordonandMin’s

caseswereheardfirstontheissueofcurfewandexclusionin1943.The

courtruled,inGordonHirabayashi’scase,onlyontheissueofcurfew.It

skippedtheexclusionwhichwasessentiallyastratagembyboththe

governmentandtheSupremeCourttoavoiddealingwiththelarger

deprivation,exclusionvs.curfew.SothecourtinHirabayashilaidoutthe

rationaleofholdingthecurfew,andlatertheexclusion.Theproblemforthe

court’sopinionwastheyhadnoevidencetoprovethatJapanese-Americans

weredisloyalorcommittedanyactsofsabotageorespionagebecauseno

Japanese-Americanhadeverdoneso.So,theywereleftwithabarrenrecord

onGordon’scase,sotheyessentiallyhadtomanufacturearationale.

01:22:08:23

Andtheycreatedthisrationalecalledthe“racialcharacteristics,”or“ethnic

characteristics”usingperipheralfacts,factsthathadlittlebearingon

whetheryou’regoingtocommitsabotageorespionage,likeJapanese-

American’sworshippedShinto,theysenttheirchildrentoJapanfor

education,thattheylivednearsensitivemilitaryfacilities,eventhoughthe

facilitieswereactuallybuiltaftertheJapanesehadsettledthere.Andthat

Japanese-Americansspokeadifferentlanguage,theysenttheirkidsto

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Japaneselanguageschools.Theywentonwiththesesociological-cultural

facts,factsthatdidnotsaytheycommitespionageorsabotage,andtheyhad

todothisbecausetheyhadnootheroptiontojustifywhattheyweredoing

withouttheevidenceofanyactualovertactsofespionageordisloyalty.

Basedonthat,essentially,theyconcludedthattheseethniccharacteristics

determineapredispositiontodisloyalty.Andonthatbasis,theyupheldthe

militaryjudgement.OneoftheinterestingthingsI’vealwaysfoundwas,one

oftheholdingstheymadeinHirabayashiandlaterinKorematsu,was

extremelyweak.TheywouldusethedreadeddoublenegativewhichEnglish

teacher’scringeat:“Wecannotsaythatthemilitaryjudgementwas

unfounded.Wecannotsaythattheauthoritiesdidnothavereasontobelieve

blahblahblah.”It’slikegoinghomeonValentine’sDayandtellingyour

significantother–“HoneyIcannotsayIdonotloveyou.”It’snotastrong

wayofmakingaconclusionorsayingadeclaratorystatement,ora

declaration,andyetthat’swhattheSupremeCourtdidbecauseyoucould

smelltheweaknessinthatdecisionbecausetheyhadnoevidence.Yetthey

hadtobow,theyfelt,tothemilitary.Theywereinatimeofwar,theyhad

someofthemostesteemedleadersinthecountrywhohadproducedthis

travesty,youknow,FranklinDelanoRoosevelt,sotheyupheldthedecisionin

Hirabayashi.

01:24:32:03

DALEMINAMI:

Andayearandhalflater,Korematsu’scasecomesup,butit’samoreserious

claimbyFredKorematsu.It’snotonlytheexclusion,theleavingand

banishingfrommyhome,buttobedetainedinaprisonwithoutdueprocess

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rightsbasedonracialdiscrimination.So,Fred’scaseraisedsomemore

difficultissuesforthecourt.SoforexamplethecourtinHirabayashiruled8-

0infavorofthegovernment.InFred’scaseitwasnow6-3.Thereweresome

vehementdissentsthatareclassicstatementsofadissentingJusticeatthe

time.WhethertheyusedthesamerationaleasHirabayashi,thedecision

itself,ifyoubreakitapart,ifyoudeconstructit,it’sludicrous.Itsays

“Korematsuwasnotexcludedfromthemilitaryareabecauseofhostilityto

himorhisrace.”Wellwhatotherreasonwasheexcluded?Noothergroupin

masswasexcludedotherthantheJapanese.Italsostartswithanincredible

magniloquenceabouthowimportantourrightsare.Thatwe“can’ttakeaway

ourrightsintheemergencyunlessthereisagreatimminentdanger”andgo

ontosayotherstatementsthatofcoursetheyignore.Thenfinallyoneofthe

most,Ithinkproblematicpartsofthatdecisionwastheindifferencetothe

judgementoftheexecutivewithoutjudgingthefacts.Theysaid,“Wellyou

saythey’reindanger?We’regoingtoacceptyourrationale.”Andthattotally

abdicatestheroleofacourt,whoissupposedtodeclarethatnobodyisabove

thelaw,andwehavearighttoexamineyourrationaleforwhyyousaythisis

importantenoughtoimprisonthatmanypeopleforthatlong.So,Fredlost

hiscaseintheSupremecourtin1944basedontherationalethatJapanese

havethesecharacteristicsthatpredisposethemtodisloyaltyandpossibly

espionageandsabotage,andalsobecausewearegoingtodefertothe

militaryjudgement,orexecutivejudgement.

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Korematsu,HirabayashiandYasuidenyingExecutiveOrder9066

01:27:04:22

DALEMINAMI:

Allofthemphysicallydeniedinsomeleveltheorders,andit’sreally

extraordinarilycomplex,butFredchallengedboththeexclusionandthe

detentionoftheSupremeCourt.Andthemanipulationthatoccurredin

Gordon’scase—Gordonwassentenced,hewasconvictedofrefusaltoobey

thecurfewandtheexclusionorders,theorderstoleave.Hewasgiven30

daysforeachcount,soatotalof60.Gordonobjected,andheobjectedina

strangeway,hesaid,“JudgecanIhave90days?”Maybethefirsttimein

historyadefendanthadaskedformoretime.Andthejudgesaid,“why?”and

hesaid,“becauseIresearchedthis,andifIget90daysconcurrently,thenI

cangoonaroadcrew.I’dratherbeonaroadcrewoutsidethanindoors.”

Judgesays,“I’llindulgeyouthesentencesareconcurrent”meaning45days

each,90daysaremergedforbothconvictionsasopposedtostackinga30-

dayona30-daytomakeit60.Wellthecourtfastenedonthatinhiscaseto

nothavetodealwiththeexclusion.So,thecourtsaid,thecurfew,whichis

notahugedepravationofrights,butwe’renotgoingtodecidetheexclusion,

becausetheexclusion--thesentencewasmerged,soevenifweruleonone

versustheotherhe’sstillgoingtohave90days.Itwaskindofanartifice,a

manufacturedwayofavoidingtheexclusionissuewhichisamoredifficult

issuetodecide.SowhenFredbroughthisup,hishadboththeexclusionand

theimprisonment,andthosetwowereveryserious.Andsothecourthad

givenitselfayearandahalftotrytogetitselftogetherfromthe8-0decision

wheretheywereintensivedissentseveninGordon’scasetogettoFred’s

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casetothepointwheretheyhadenoughtohopefullyholdamajority

together.Andwhatthecourtdidtherewasonlyruleontheexclusionand

lateronsay,becauseFreddidn’traisedetentionasanissueearlieron,we’re

notgoingtoevendecidethat.

01:29:34:00

Andsotheyavoidedeventhemoreseriousofallcharges—the

imprisonment—asawayofmanipulatingthedecisiontocometoa

conclusion.AndpartofthehypocrisyofthatisevenintheKorematsu

decision,itsaysthat‘Wedon’thavetodealwiththedetentionthereisplenty

oftimetodealwiththatlater,’andlateristwocaseslater,andtwocases

laterisacasecalledExparteEndo,andsheraiseddetentionasa

constitutionalissue,andthecourtsaidinKorematsuthatwe’lldealwiththe

constitutionissuelater.InEndo,theyfinallyruleinfavorofher,buttheyfail

toaddresstheconstitutionalgrounds.So,whiletheysaytwocasesearlier,

they’regoingtodealwiththeconstitutionalcase,theyfailtodosoinEndo

twocaseslater.So,it’ssoclearlymanipulationofawholejudicial,

jurisprudenceofthesecasesthattomeisjustoneoftheirritating,kindword

tosay,reallypissedoff,waythiscourtsystemhastreatedJapanese-

Americans.

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DissentingopinionsinKorematsuv.UnitedStates

01:30:47:18

DALEMINAMI:

ThreeJusticesdissented.JusticeRobertsfastenedonthecontradictory

orders,oneorderrequiringpeopletostayinoneplace,andanotherorder

requiringthemtoleave?Wellwhatdoyouchoose?Eitheroneyou’re

violatingthelaw.HisdissentwasnotasstrongasJustice,twootherJustices.

JusticeMurphy’sdissentwasscathing,itsaid,“Idissentfromthislegalization

ofracism.Thisputsusintheabyssofracism,thisdecision.”AndthenJustice

Jackson,whowaslateraprosecutoratNuremberg,parentheticallyIguess.

JusticeJacksoncomposedoneofthemostquoteddissents,calling“This

legalizationofracismliesaroundlikealoadedweapon,layingaroundforany

authoritywhocouldputforwardaplausibleclaimofanurgentneed.”What

hesaysis,“Byinstitutionalizingthisdecision,thisgivesaprecedentonany

kindofdiscriminationyoucoulddeclareonthebasisof,withoutfacts.”So,

it’scalledtheloadedgundissentandusedoverandoverbecauseit’sso

powerful.

MinamilearningabouttheKorematsucaseandrecognizingfallacies

01:32:08:15

DALEMINAMI:

Theyteachthesecasesinalmosteveryconstitutionallawclassforlaw

studentsandtheyareabstractdiscussionsabouttheconflictingrights,the

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discriminationvsthepowerofthemilitary,thingslikethat.I’mreadingthese

casesandofcoursethisisverypersonalbecauseI’mreadingaboutmy

parentsbeingimprisoned…Andso,I’mreadingthejustificationsthinking,oh

that’sB.S.,thisdoesnotseemtoapply.AndasIlearnmoreabouthistory,I

realizedthefallaciesthatwereputforwardinthesecases.AndIcaneven

recognizesomeoftheinternalandexternalcontradictions,thelackoflogic

onsomeofthedecisions.Infactinlawschooltherewasaprojectthatwas

ledbyaprofessor,aJapanese-Americanprofessor,whogotagrantifhe

couldoverturnoneofthesecases,andIvolunteeredforthatprojectandyet

theyhadenoughpeoplesoIwasrebuffedIdidn’tgettoparticipate.Nobody

atthattimethoughtthesecasescouldbereopened,thesespecificcasesof

thesethreemencouldbereopened.

LegalcriticsreviewingJapanese-Americanincarcerationcases

01:33:25:21

DALEMINAMI:

Legalcriticshavelookedatthesedecisionsfromthestart.Sixmonthsafter

Korematsu,afamousarticlecameoutbythedeanoftheYalelawschool

scathinglydenouncingthisdecision,theKorematsudecision.Similar

commentshadcomeoutovertheyearsthroughoutthe60sand70sabout

thesedecisions.Itwasn’tuntilthecontext,thehistoricalcontextwas

discoveredandpromulgatedaboutJapanese-Americanhistorythatfolks

startedgettingtheideathatthiswasreallywrong.Andnowweunderstand

atthattime,wewouldsay,nowweunderstandthosejustificationswerevery

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weak.Andsothat’swhenpeoplestartedtakingnoticeevenmoreandasI

readsomeofthosecommentaries—therewereanumberofthembytheway

thatcriticizedthesedecisions,itjustmadeyoumoreandmoreupsetthatwe

couldhaveajudicialsystem—I’mstudyingtobecomealawyertopromote

justice,andtoseethissortofthinghappenintheSupremeCourtbythese

supposedlywiseJustices,andit’spersonaltomyfamily.

BecomingoneofFredKorematsu’slawyerstooverturnhisconviction

01:34:48:18

DALEMINAMI:

YouknowIreceivedacallfromamannamedPeterIrons,hewasaprofessor

andalawyer,andhediscoveredevidencethattherewereliespresentedto

theSupremeCourt,thattherecordwasfraudulentlymanipulatedand

manufacturedtojustifythepollingoftheHirabayashi,YasuiandKorematsu

convictions.AndheaskedifIcouldhelpwiththecasesandItoldhim,thatI’d

liketoseetheevidencefirst,becausethissoundedmiraculoustome.And

sureenough,hehadallthesememosfromthedepartmentsownattorneys

andfromothersourceswhichprovedexactlywhathewassaying,thatthe

entirerecordwasmanufacturedtowinthesecasesatallcosts,eventhough

theywerefalseclaimsthatwerebeingmadeintheSupremeCourt.So,I

helpedputtogetheralegalteam,andwegavehimanaudience,wesawthe

documents.Theywereexactlyliketheysaidhewere…andessentially

smokingguns.Wethought,yeah,wecoulddothis,butarethesemenstill

alive?AndPeterassuredme“Yestheyare,”andsureenoughtheywereall

21

willingtostandupandchallengetheirconvictions.Sothat’showwestarted

onthatsetofcases.

01:36:18:08

Hehadreceivedmynamefromacouplesources,lawyersthatIdidn’treally

knowverywellpartlybecauseIhaddonealotofimpactcaseswhichwas

suingthegovernmentandsuinginclassactionsforexample.Ihavehadcases

inWashington,SpokaneIhadcasesagainsttheSanFranciscopolice,against

CaliforniaBlueShield,andinmypublicinterestlifewhenIwasdoingso

muchmoreofthat.PetergotmynamefromoneofMinoriYasui’sattorney’s

inLosAngeles.Andsothat’s,hewantedtofindsomebodyontheWestCoast.

AndtheinterestingthingaboutPeterwashewantedtomakesurethiswhole

effortwasledbyJapanese-Americans,butofcoursetherewerenotalotof

Japanese-Americansdoingpublicinterestwork.Infact,therewerenotalot

oflawyersofAsiandissentatthattimewhenIstartedpracticinginthedark

ages,sothat’swhyIgotthecall.

TheneedforemotionaldistancefromacaselikeKorematsu’s

01:37:21:08

DALEMINAMI:

Asalawyerifyougetemotionalandtooemotionalitcloudsyourjudgement,

sowehadtodistanceourselves.Weunderstoodthemissionwassignificant

historically,possiblyimportant,butatthesametimewehadtomakesure

thatwewereobjectivelyevaluatingthecaseitself,thefacts,thechancesof

winning,thelegalarguments.Astimewentonofcoursewegotmore

22

emotionallyinvestedanddeepdownwewereverymuchsoinvested

becausemostoftheattorneysonourteamweresansei,they’rethird

generationJapanese-Americans.Andsotheyhadbeeninvestedingeneral,

butIthinkweprettymuchsuppressedalotofthatinordertokeepoureye

ontheprize,whichwastowinthesecases.

TheargumentmadeinoverturningKorematsu’sconviction

01:38:13:16

DALEMINAMI:

Thecoreoftheargumentwasthatmisconducttaintedtheentireprocessin

theSupremeCourtandbecauseofthatitcausedamanifestinjustice,andifa

manifestinjusticecanbeprovedwithnewlydiscoveredevidence,whichwas

PeterIronsdiscoveriesandAikoYoshinagaHerzig’sdiscoveries,thenyou

couldreopenyourcaseandgetyourconvictionthrownout.Soourwhole

argumentwasthiswasafraudontheSupremeCourt,anditwasadeliberate,

intentionalmisrepresentationbycourtofficersliketheSolicitorGeneralthat

ledtoamonumentalinjustice.Thatwasthebasisofourargument.

FredKorematsu’sattitudetowardsreopeninghiscase

01:39:00:21

DALEMINAMI:

Fredwasveryquietandreservedwhenwefirstmethim,ofcoursehe

changedovertime.Hewasveryenthusiastic,whichsurprisedus.Weknew

23

GordonandMinwere,onewasaprofessor,onewasalawyer.Fredwasa

draftsmanandawelderwhenhegotarrested.Wefeltthatwedidn’tknow

Fredverywell,butasweprogressed,wecouldseeFredwasreallyoneofthe

strongestadvocatesforhisownright,notjustforhimself,butforothers.I

thinkithastobementionedthatFredandhiswifeCatherine,Catherinewas

apartofthatteam.ShewasaCaucasianwomanfromSouthCarolina,andjust

abrilliantwomanwhohelpedusbothlegallyandpolitically,sheunderstood

thingsandwasveryhelpfultous.Fredhadastrongsenseofrightandwrong.

Thingsinsomewayswereverysimpletohim.HewasanAmericancitizen.

Whyshouldhebetreateddifferentlythananyothers?Andyoucomparehim

toGordonandMin.Gordonhadarationalethat,toseedtothemilitarywould

belikewavinghiscitizenshiprights.Minhadalegalargument:thisis

discriminationIshouldnotbeapartofthistaintedprocess.Fredwasvery

simplehesaid,“Thisisjustwrong.”Andthatsimplestrengthwasas

powerfulasanyotherrationaleyoucouldeverdiscover.

TheoutcomeofreopeningFredKorematsu’scase

01:40:44:12

DALEMINAMI:

Wewentthroughaseriesofhearingsandwentthroughwhatwerecalled

discovery,obtaininginformation.Andatthefinalhearingthatwewere

supposedtohave,wearguedthatFred’sconvictionhadtobeoverturned,

andnotonlythatwehadtohavefindingsoffacts,wehadtohaveconclusions

oflaw.Weneededanopinionfromthejudgethatwhatwasdoneto

24

Japanese-Americanswaswrong.Anditwasnecessaryonmanylevelsnotjust

forFred’ssatisfaction,theJapanese-Americancommunity,butitwasforthe

battleofredressinCongressthatwaswagedatthetime,andweneededa

legalopinionthatwouldcounterthe1943and44decisionsbytheSupreme

Courtthatopponentsoftheredressmovement,redressforJapanese-

Americanswereusingtotrytodefeatthatredress$20,000apologyfor

Japanese-Americans.

01:41:54:21

Atthatdayincourttheyhadtochangethecourtroombecausesomany

peoplewantedtogo,andtheymovedittoaceremonialcourtroom.Andthe

workteamsfromHirabayashiandYasuicasescamedownandtheaudience

wasfilledwith—itwasabsolutelypacked—peoplewereinthejurybox,we

hadreportersthere,council.Anumberofthefolks,perhapsamajoritywere

Japanese-Americans,theretowitnessthetrialtheyneverhad.Theywerea

majorityinthecourtroom.Iopenedwithmyargumentwhichwas“Weare

heretodaytoseekamajorofjusticedeniedtotheJapanese-American

communitysome40yearsago.”AndIwentontoarguewhyfindingsoffact

wereabsolutelynecessary.Wehadtopublishanopinion.Notonlyoverturn

hisconvictionbuthaveawrittenopinion.Atonepointtheotherattorneyfor

theUnitedStatesgovernmentgavehisrebuttal,whichwasessentially,“Let

bygonesbebygones.”Anditwasaveryweakargument,whichofcourse

nobodyboughtatthetimeincludingthejudge.Andthenweaskedthejudge

toindulgeusandletFredspeak.Andunusualforyourclienttospeakin

court,butFredgaveaverypowerfulpleatotalkabouthowhehadcometo

thiscourtroomyearsagoinhandcuffs,andhehascomeheretodaytomake

25

surethatthisdoesnothappentoanyotherAmericanagain.Withthatthe

courtclosedtheargument.And,incourts,inargument,whenyouarguein

courtthejudgesusuallytakeitinsubmissionwhichmeanstheydon’tmakea

rulingandtheywalkoffthebench.Wellshedidn’tdothat;shegaveusher

oralopiniondirectlyfromthebench.Anditconfirmedandvalidatedalmost

everythingwesaid,thattherewasmisconduct,thegovernmentattorneys

knewit,thatsomeofthedecisiontoincarcerateJapanesewaspropelledby

racism,andhadthecourtknownofthiscontraryevidencethatcontradicted

theirownargumentsintheSupremeCourtin1943and1944,thedecision

mightbedifferent.AndwiththatshethrewoutFred’s40yearoldconviction.

01:44:35:00

InthatcourtroomasIwasarguingyoucouldhearpeoplesnifflingandcrying

andJapanesetendnottoshowtheiremotions,butyoucansensethe

intensityofwhatwasgoingoninthatdayforthetrialtheyneverhad.After

weleftandwentoutsideinthehall,folkswerecrying,hugging,theywere

reallyecstaticabouthavingtheirdayincourtthroughFredKorematsu.And

afterthattheJapanese-Americancommunity,withfindingsespeciallywhich

wereverypowerful,reallyembracedFredKorematsuandwhathehaddone,

andthelegalcasewehadbroughtthatwasdoubtedbyalotofpeople,that

we’dwinthese.

26

Trumpvs.HawaiiprovidedanopportunitytooverturnKorematsuvs.UnitedStates

01:45:25:11

DALEMINAMI:

InordertogetbackintotheSupremeCourtyouneedafactualsituationthat

isexactlylikeorsimilar.TheCorumNobusisaspecialkindofprocedurethat

onlygetsridoftheconvictionofthedefendant,itdoesn’toverturnthe

SupremeCourtrulingbecausetheSupremeCourtrulingis,itdoesn’t

overturntheSupremeCourtruling.Soyouneedanotherfactualsituation

thatisfairlysimilar.EnterTrumpvs.Hawaii,andthatisascloseasyoucan

gettooneofthosesituationswhereacourtcouldoverturnKorematsu.

SimilaritiesbetweenKorematsuvs.UnitedStatesandTrumpvs.Hawaii

01:46:10:18

DALEMINAMI:

Trumpvs.Hawaiiwasachallengetothequote“travelban”against

predominantlyMuslimcountries.ItwasreallyaMuslimban,andifyou

reviewthestatementsmadebyDonaldTrumpthatwereanti-Muslim,that

wantedthemtoceaseimmigrationhere,toerectblockagestotheir

immigration,thatledtoeventuallyanexecutiveordertoblockimmigration

fromMuslimcountries.Theorderwasamendedafewtimes,butitwasreally

predominantlyMuslimcountries.So,itwasreligiousprofiling,unlikethe

racialprofilingJapanese-Americansendured.Andso,tocastagroupwith

suchbroadstrokesnotonthebasisofindividualdanger,whichwasdoneto

27

Japanese-AmericansmadethiscasequitesimilartotheKorematsu,

HirabayashiandYasuicases.ItfounditswaytotheSupremeCourt.Trump

hadlostineverycircuitcourtandalmostevery,heloston,Trump’sexecutive

orderlostoneverydistrictcourtandcircuitcourt,beforeitgotitthe

SupremeCourt.AndwhenitgottheSupremeCourt,JusticeRobertsupheld

theMuslimban,andherefusedtolookatthereport,uponwhichtheMuslim

banwasbased,becausethegovernmentrefusedtoproduceit.Itwasnot

dissimilartothesuppressionofevidencewhichledtotheKorematsu

decisionin’44.Healso,JusticeRobertsfailedtodoanyactiveinterrogation

usingrigidscrutiny,whichisthestandard,tolookatthisasacasewhereyou

havetolookveryclosely,testtheevidence,determinewhethertherewasa

justifiablerationale.Instead,healmostsaid,“becausethePresidentsaidit,

we’regoingtobelieveit.”

01:48:15:10

Andthat’sthedangerofthatdecision,becauseitisreallyKorematsu

revisited,it’sanechoofhistory.JusticeSotomayordissented,andinher

dissent,eventhoughJusticeRobertsclaimsthatKorematsuwasoverturned,

shesaysthatthisisessentiallyahollowvictorybecauseitredeploysonebad

decisionforanother.IfyoureadtheRobertsquote“overturning”of

Korematsu,it’snotreallyoverturning,symbolicallyit’sveryimportant,but

it’saveryhollowvictoryinthesensethatheparseshiswords.“Korematsu

wasoverturnedinthecourtofhistory.Itwaswrongthedayitwasdecided.”

InsayingthatheoverturnsKorematsu,inthenextbreathheupholdsthe

travelbanbydeferringtothePresident.SothatdeferraltothePresident,or

deferraltothemilitaryortheexecutive,isthemostdangeroustypeof

28

precedentyoucouldhave.It’sthesameonethatwasusedinKorematsu,it’s

thesameonethatwasusedinTrumpvHawaii.

Nationalsecurityasajustificationforignoringcivilrights

01:49:28:23

DALEMINAMI:

I’vealwaysfeltthathistoryhasshownthatthereisalwaysgoingtobea

tensionbetweencivilrightsandnationalsecurity.There’sgoingtobea

balancesomewherealong,butalsoinmymind,andtheKorematsucase

provesthisaswellasTrumpvHawaii.There’sgottobesometransparency,

yougottohavesomepublicrationale,andofcourseintimesofwaryoucan’t

tellmilitarysecrets,butsomebody’sgottobeabletoofferenoughevidence

tojustify,whichisessentiallyagraveviolationofcivilrights,orracial

profilingforthatexample,religiousprofiling.Inordertodothatsomebody

hastobeabletotesttheevidence,andthatsomebodyisusuallythecourts.

Whenthecourtsstepdown,whenthecourtsabdicate,whentheygiveup

theirrole,youonlyhavetwobranchesofgovernment,becausethePresident

isgoingtogettodowhateverhewants.Thatwholechecksandbalances

systemfallsofthefailureofthecourtstoexercisetheirproperrole.Ifeelthat

whenyouhavethesenationalsecurityjustificationsfordoinganything,given

ourlensofhistoryasJapanese-AmericansorwhathappenedtoKorematsu

orHirabayashiorYasui,weareskeptical.Andwefeelthatthecourtsneedto

domoretoensurethereissometransparency,ortheexecutivegovernment

29

needstodomoretoprovideanhonestjustificationthatisrationalandleads

totheparticularexecutiveorderthatisannounced.

Learningthelessonfromthepast

01:51:21:20

DALEMINAMI:

Youknowtheadage,“Thosewhofailtolearnthelessonsofhistoryare

doomedtorepeatit.”That’saverysimplisticwayofexplainingavery

difficultconcept.Historyisverycomplex,becausewhatI’verealizedisthata

lotofpeopleunderstandhistory,butforotherreasonsfailtoapplyit.Think

Vietnam,thingAfghanistan,thinktheJapanese-Americanincarceration,think

ofwhat’shappenedtotheMuslimregistration.They’rerepeatinghistoryall

thetime,andatlargepartbecauseofpoliticalexpediency.Historycanbe

distorted,too,historycanbechanged,andtherearerevisionistswhosaythe

Holocaustneverhappened,sothathistoryisadynamicprocessthatneedsto

bereaffirmedinitscorrectnessallthetime.

01:52:12:19

Everygenerationhastorelearnthisandknowthisagainbecausethereare

peoplewhodeliberatelydistortwhathappened.Therearepeoplewhofailto

learnorapplyhistorybecauseofpoliticalexpediency.It’sadynamicconcept

andIusetheexampleofavocadoes,becauseyearsagotheytoldus

avocadoesarebadforyou.YouknowIloveavocadoes,andlateronofcourse

theyfindout,ohnoitcontainsreallygoodfat,it’sreallygoodforyou,there’s

aguacamolereliefact.AndIwasdelightedtobeabletoeatavocadoes

30

withoutguilt.Butthat’sanexampleofhowthingschangeandyouhaveto

understandthathistoryisdynamicconceptandjustbecausehistoryas

declaredinonepointintimedoesn’tmeanthathistoryisthesamehistory

thatyouwilllearntoday.Thebiggestpointthoughisthathistoryis

manipulated,subjecttopoliticalexpediency.Decisionsyoushouldmake

basedonpasthistoryarenotalwaysmadejustbecausepeoplefeelthatout

ofexpediency,theywanttomaketheirdecisionsadifferentwayorina

differentdirection.

Ignoranceasthecauseoffear

01:53:34:04

DALEMINAMI:

IdohavesomeempathyforpeoplelivingontheWestCoastatthattime.

Theywereignorant,theydidnotknowwhotheJapanesewere,theywere

scaredbecauseofthepoliticianrants,sotheywerenotalwaysthemost

informedpeople.Buttherearetimeswhenhistoryisveryclear.Thereare

timeswhenhistoryisveryclear.Whenyoumassacre6millionJews,howare

yougoingtojustifythatby,‘Ohitwasthetimes.’Idon’tthinkso.Howabout

segregationorslavery?Therearetimesyoucanunderstandwhypeopledo

thingsorhowtheybehavethatway,butitcertainlydoesn’tjustifythese

kindsofinjustices.

31

Theimportanceofspeakingoutagainstinjustice

01:54:20:12

DALEMINAMI:

Ithinkit’sincumbentuponcitizenstospeakoutagainstinjustice.It’snotan

easythingtodo,it’sverydifficultandIthinkwerelysomuchonourpolitical

leadership,soit’suptoustoelectgoodleaders.Butonanindividuallevel,I

thinkspeakingoutagainstignorance,speakingoutagainstbigotryare

importantthingstodo,becauseonamaybeamacrolevelitmaynotseemto

makeanydifference,butonadaytodaycitizentocitizenlevel,orpersonto

personlevel,asyouchangethecultureofthecountrybyeitherexampleor

byspeakingoutorbyjoiningwithotherpeopletomakeadifference,

changingthecultureisalong,longprocessbutissomethingweneedtobe

committedtodoaseverydaycitizens.

Ordinarypeoplecaneffectchange

01:55:23:22

DALEMINAMI:

WhenIwasincollege,westudiedthegreatman,theycalleditthegreatman,

theydidn’tsaygreatwoman.Thegreatmantheoryofhistory,theyhadall

kindsofdifferenttheoriesofhistory.AlndIreallybelieved,Istillbelievethat

massesofpeoplecreatehistory,andinsomecases,agreatmanwillstandup.

MartinLutherKingJr.,MalcolmX,changedthedirectionofthiscountryto

fightagainstracism.ButIthinkpeoplelikeFredisoneofthebestexamples

32

ofsomeonewhowasanordinarycitizen,andIhatetousethewordordinary,

becausehewasanextraordinarycitizen,orhewasanordinarycitizenputin

extraordinarycontext,andsomanytimesthosepeoplestandupanddo

somethingheroic,anditdoesn’thavetobeheroicitjusthastobesomething

thatmovesusforwardalittlebit.So,Ibelievethateverydaypeopleallofus

asAmericanscancontributetothemovementofsocialjusticeforward,that

archofhistory,thatarchofjusticethatMartinLutherKingJr.talksabout.

Andifyouseeyourselfinisolationofcourseyoucansay,“WellIcan’tmake

anydifferenceI’mjustoneperson,”butifeveryonesawthemselvesthatway

thennothingwouldhappen.Butifyouseeyourselfasalargergrowing,

evolvingcommunityofpeople,likeapartofariverthatisflowingforward,

thenyouunderstandthatyou’repartofalargerflowofevents,ofculture,

society,thateventuallycanachievesomesocialjusticedowntheline,

upstream.

Minami’sfatherbecomingarepublicanaftertheincarceration

01:57:19;16

DALEMINAMI:

MyfatherwasaDemocratuntilhewasputintotheprisonsbyFDR.Afterthat

pointhebecameanalmostlifelongRepublican,andhisexplanationforthat,

whichIdiscussedwithhimwhenIwasofvotingageandwantedtobea

Democrat,wastheyputusintheprisons.So,hewasembittered,andthat

washiswayofatleastshowingusdispleasure,Iguessyoushouldsay,at

beingtreatedthatwaybyDemocrats.Buthewasalsoasmallbusinessman,

33

ownersoI’msurethatledintoit,andyethenevervotedRepublicanuntilmy

motherwhowasprettymuchalwaysaDemocratcommittedhimhehadto

voteDemocratwhentheVietnamwarwasraging,sohevotedforEugene

McCarthyforthefirsttime.AndsoafterthathestayedaDemocratwhichwas

interestingtome,becausemaybehewasretired.Heharboredalotof

bitternesswhichweneversaw,andwedidn’tseeituntiltheredress

movementstartedandloosenedthetonguesofJapanese-Americanstohelp

themreclaimtheirpoliticalbirthright,theirlegacyofbeingAmericans

citizen.Andatthatpointhestartedtalkingmoreandmoreandwelearned

moreandmore.Thiswasinmymid30s,soalongtimeaftermyyouthful

years,butIthinkoncehisvoicewasloosened,hewasabletotellussomuch

moreabouthowupsethewas,showedusdocumentswhichIstillhave,and

wasquiteanimated.

WhatoverturningKorematsu’sconvictionmeantforMinami’sparents

01:59:15:02

DALEMINAMI:

Yeah,myparentswerealivewhenwearguedtheKorematsucase.Myfather

passedawayaboutfouryearslaterafterthecase.Hewasextremelyproud,

notjustofme,butthathehadsomesortofvindicationforalltheliesthat

weretoldaboutJapanese-Americans,alltheracismheenduredinhis

lifetime.So,Ithinkhefeltgoodabouttheideaofredress.Heneverlivedto

gethis20,000dollarsapology,buthewascertainlyquiteelatedthatheknew

heneverdidanythingwrongandnowitwasprovenincourt.

34

Reasonvs.emotioninthedecision-makingprocess

01:59:59:19

DALEMINAMI:

Reasonisadifficultcounterweighttoemotionaldecisions.OvertheyearsI’ve

doneenoughtrialstoknowthatjuriesprettymuchrespondemotionallyto

theevidencesotospeak,andthenanchororjustifytheirdecisioninsome

intellectualbasisorreason.We’veseenthatinthemostrecentelections.

Peoplewillvoteagainsttheirself-interestbecausetheyhaveanemotional

connectionandsotheirself-interest,whichisrational,doesnotcomeinto

playasmuch.It’saverydifficultpropositiontochangepeople’semotional

justification.IthinkyouhavetoengageindialogueIdobelievethatyoucan

changepeoplebytalkingtothem,butyouhavetotalktopeopleinamanner

inwhichyoucancommunicate.So,ithastobeinexperiencestheyknow

aboutorcanrelateto.Itcan’tbeoverwhelmingthemwithfactsnecessarily.

Andithastobeappealinginsomewaystotheirownself-knowledgeorithas

toappealtothemthroughtheirownexperienceorcommonalityof

experiences.InthatsenseIthinkyoucanreachpeople,becauseyou’vegotto

gettotheirheartasmuchasyougettotheirminds,becauseifyoudon’tget

tothememotionally,Idon’tbelieveyoucancreateintellectualjustifications

thataresopurelycorrectthatyou’regoingtochangesomebody’smind.ButI

dobelieveifyoucandoitinawaythatrelatestotheircommonalityin

experienceortheirexperiences,youcanactuallycreateadialoguethatthen

allowspeopletoeitherthinkaboutwhatyoumighthavesaidoratleasthave

somechangeofheartbasedonwhatyou’veagreedupon.

35

ExplainingtheJapanese-Americanincarcerationtoothers

02:02:07:18

DALEMINAMI:

Youhavetodescribewhattheprisonswerelike,becausejustsayingthere

wasterriblewater,ifyoujustsaytherewasterribleconditions,youhaveto

bealittlemorespecific.Youhavetotalkaboutlossofdignity,becausepeople

needtofeelwhatit’sliketobereallyhumiliated.Peoplemightnot

understandsleepingincotsorhavingtogotoopenlatrinesorgetting

inadequatemedicalcare—thoseareprettyabstractconcepts,butifyoutalk

aboutthehumiliationthatpeoplesufferwhentheyaretreatedasanimalsor

lessthanhumanorlessthancitizens,peoplecanallrelatetotheideaof

humiliationmoreso.SoIthinkthat’sonewayofdoingit.Theotherwayisto

connecttotheirownexperienceofracialdiscrimination.Ifyou’retalkingto

a,especiallyagroupofpeopleofcolor,andorwomen,too,theytendtoget

thingsaloteasier.So,tothatextentyoutalktothemintermsofracial

discrimination.Others,especiallyinlawschool,thereisasenseofjusticethat

peoplehave,anditmaybedifferentkindsofjustice,butifyouexplainthe

Korematsucase,orcasesthatweworkedonintermsofthekindof

manipulation,thefraud,themisconduct,peoplehaveasenseoffairness

wheretheysay,ohthatwasn’tfair.Theycanrelatetothat.Theymightnot

agreewithyouintermsofotherproposalsyouhaveorotherideas,buta

senseofjustice,IdobelievethatsomanypeoplehavethatandIthink

appealingtothatwithconcreteexamplesishelpful.

36

ThepossibilityoftheKorematsudecisionbeingoverturnedintheSupremeCourt

02:04:06:10

DALEMINAMI:

Youknow,therearedifferentpartsoftheKorematsudecisions.Thepartthat

saysyoucanincarcerateanentiregroupofpeoplewithoutdueprocess,I

thinkthat’snotonlyoverturnedinthecourtofhistorybutIdobelievethat

legalcommentatorshavedamagedthatprecedenttosuchadegreethatit

won’tbeusedagain.TheprecedentthatyoucandefertothePresidentorthe

executivewithoutanexaminationoftheevidenceisreallyadangerousone

thatisevennowmorestronglyembeddedinourjurisprudencethroughthe

Trumpvs.Hawaiicase.That’sthemoredangerousoftheprecedentsandthe

onewe’regoingtohavetolivewith.Atsomepointyou’regoingtohaveto

hopeforanotherbranchofthegovernment,otherthanthejudiciary,tostep

upandmakeadifferenceintermsofthedecisionsthatarenotgoingtobe

overturnedbythejudiciary.