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DALEMINAMIINTERVIEWTHESOULOFAMERICAKUNHARDTFILMFOUNDATIONDaleMinamiCivilRightsAttorneyJune7,2019InterviewedbyKatieDavisonTotalRunningTime:1hour,3minutesSTARTTC:01:00:00:00BackgroundandconnectiontoFredKorematsu’scase
01:00:08:16
DALEMINAMI:
MynameisDaleMinami,Iwasinvolvedinthecasethatoverturnedhis
conviction,Ihadalsoreadaboutthesecases,theKorematsucase,landmark
casethatalllawstudentsreadinlawschool.Myparentswerevictimsofthe
governmentincarcerationofJapanese-AmericanssoIknewthisfroma
personpointofviewandalegalpointofview.
PearlHarborandtheracismthatledtotheJapanese-Americanincarceration
01:00:36:09
DALEMINAMI:
December7th,1941theimperialforcesofJapanattackedtheUnitedStatesat
PearlHarbor,andthatdayofinfamy,asPresidentRooseveltcallsit,leadto
yearsofinfamywiththeimprisonmentofJapanese-Americanssuspectedof
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beingspiesandsaboteurs.Under20,000AmericansofJapaneseancestry
werebanishedfromtheirhomes,takentothenetherregionsofthiscountry,
imprisonedforindefiniteperiodsoftime,withoutanydueprocessrightsto
anattorney,righttoahearing,righttoanoticeofcharges.Theylivedin
abysmalconditionsforyears.ThestorybeginsbeforePearlHarborbecause
theyearsofracismthatwasvisiteduponChinese-Americansandthen
Japanese-Americanswasbegunyearsbefore,100yearsbefore.Sothewhole
settingoftheincarcerationwasprestagedbytheracismthatafflictedAsian
Americans,sothetimewasripeforthatracismandtheriversofracismto
overflow.Andthecountrywaspredisposedtobehostileandantagonisticto
Japanese-Americanssoitwasn’tadifficultmoveforthemtoclaimthat
Japanese-Americanswerespiesanddangerous.
01:02:14:18
TheincarcerationofJapanese-Americanswasnotanaberration.Ithadbegun
yearsandyearsagowiththeadventofChinesetothiscountrywhowere
welcomeinitiallyascheaplaborandeventuallybecamethesubjectof
hostilityandantagonism.Theywereseparatedinschools,theyweredenied
certainoccupations,therewereactuallynching’s,killings,burningoftheir
communities,andfinallyin1882thefirstImmigrationActagainstanyethnic
groupwaspassedagainstChinesefromcomingintothiscountry.Intothat
void,becauseChinesecouldnotcome,JapanesewererecruitedfromJapan,
andtheybothinheritedthegoodwilloftheChineseatthestartandinherited
theantagonismlateronastheydevelopedtheirownfarms,because
competitivetonon-Asianfarmers,sothesecondImmigrationActwaspassed
tobanJapanesein1924.Sothatwholesettingofracismordiscrimination
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againsttheseAsianswasastagefortheincarcerationofJapanese-Americans.
Therewere,wholecommunitieswereburneddown.Theyweredenied
occupationswiththestate,segregated,theywerenotallowedtoownlandas
immigrants,andthatwasn’tchangeduntilthe60’s.Theycouldn’tmarry
outsidetheirrace,thatwasillegal,miscegenation.Theyalsosuffereda
numberofotherlegal,theyalsosufferedlegaldiscriminationinotherareas.
Minami’sfamilybackground
01:04:04:05
DALEMINAMI:
Mygrandparentscamehereintheearly1900sfromthesouthofJapanwhere
manyJapanesecamebecausetheywerefarmers,awholehostofhistorical,
societalandculturalconditions.TheythoughtliketheChinesetheywould
stayforalittlewhile,pickupthegoldbricksthatthestreetsweremadeof,
returnhomeandlivelikekings,andessentiallyweresoldabillofgoods
becausetheywerethenrelegatedtotherailroads,mining,themostmenial
conditionsinordertosurvive.TheyspokeJapanese,soIcouldn’t
communicatewiththem,andpartofthatreasonisgrowingupasathird-
generation,myparentswereborninSouthernCalifornia.Theydiscouraged
usfromknowingmuchaboutJapan,beingtoo“Japanese,”becausethatwould
beasignthatweweretoovulnerable.So,wenevertalkedaboutthose,the
imprisonment,wedidn’ttalkabouttheinjustice,wedidn’ttalkaboutthe
hardshipstheywentthrough.Theydidn’tliketotalkaboutthoseissues.In
ordertoassimilateandbecomepartofthisgreatAmericancell,howeveryou
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wanttocallit,theyfelttheyhadtoomuchtrappingsofbeingJapanesewasa
deficit,wassomethingthatyoudidnotwanttodotocallattentionto
yourself.WhileweoccasionallyateJapanesefood,wewereprettymuch
encouragedtobeasCaucasianaswecouldasquote“American”aswecould.
AndIthinkasonecommentatormentioned,theywerelikerapevictims.This
wasnotsomethingpleasanttotalkabout,thiswasahorriblesituation,a
terribleinjustice.Toacountry,byacountrytheyloved.Forthemitwas,they
wouldratherleavethatinthepast,thedarkrecessesoftheirmindsandtry,
inasensetoprotectuspsychologicallyandintermsofourfuturecareersas
well.
ExecutiveOrder9066
01:06:09:18
DALEMINAMI:
PresidentRooseveltonFebruary19,1942signedexecutiveorder9066
whichdelegatedtothemilitarycommanderofthewestUnitedStates,
GeneralJohnL.DeWitttomakesuchordersappropriate.Congress,withina
dayortwo,passedPublicLaw503whichmadeitacrimetodisobeya
militaryorder.It’samilitaryorderthatwasyettobeissuedsoitwasallvery
stagedandcoordinated.Thenthemilitarycommander,JohnL.DeWittorders
acurfewofallalienGermans,ItaliansandallJapanese,whethercitizensor
not.ThatledtoanexclusionactthatwasaimedatJapanese,whetheryouare
Americancitizenornot,wheretheyhadtoleavetheirhomes,theyhadto
reporttowhattheycalled“temporaryassemblycenters”whichformy
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parentswastheSantaAnitaracetrackswheretheylivedinhorsestalls,with
horsemanureonthewallandhayontheground.Andthentheyweremoved
andtransportedacrossthecountrytoruralArkansasoroneofthetenother
designatedcampsforJapanese-Americans.So,thatwastheyearsofinfamyI
mentioned.YearsofinfamyforJapanesetohavenothingtodowithPearl
HarborandyetbetakenawaywithouttheirrightstotheseGodforsaken
placesinthiscountryforindefiniteconfinement.
01:07:49:01
TheexecutiveorderdidnotrefertoJapaneseatall,anditwasasomewhat
commonexperienceforJapanese-Americans.IfyoulookattheAlienLand
Act,whichprohibitedessentiallyJapaneseandChineseimmigrantsfrom
owningland,itwaswrittenneutrally.JustliketheMuslimban,whichdoes
notspecificallytalkaboutMuslimsorArabs,theexecutiveorderwaswritten
neutralonitsface.Itwassoobviousthattheseappliedtoaspecificgroup,
andit’ssoobviousthatitwastheresult,tomymindatleast,ofsomekindof
discrimination.Andyettonameatargetedgroupwouldundoubtedlyaffect
theeffectivenessofthatparticularorder.Ifyoucouplethatwithcontextual
circumstances,theracismexhibitedbyGeneralJohnL.DeWitt,thepublic
opinionatthetimeagainstJapaneseforexample,youcouldfigureoutif
you’renotanidiotthatthisappliestoJapanese-Americans.
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GermansandItaliansnotbeingmassivelyincarceratedlikeJapanese-Americans
01:09:03:19
DALEMINAMI:
WewereatwarwithGermanyandItaly,soitwasobvioustherewerepeople
inthosecommunitiesthatwouldbesuspectaswell.TheFBIhadfileson
prettymuchallofthefolkstheydetermineddangerous,sosomeofthose
folkswereroundedup,buttheyweren’ttakeninmasslikeJapanesewere,
whichincludedcitizens.Ithinkifyoulookback,that’swhythathistoryof
racismcomesintoplaybecauseyoudidn’thavehistoryofracismforthat
manyyearsagainstGermansorItalians,andsecondlyifyoulookathow
AmericaorthiscountryhastreatedAsians,asexotic,asinscrutable,
unknowable,asunassimilable—andthat’skindofacodewordusedinmany
contextstojustifydiscriminatorytreatment—youcanunderstandthat
Japanese-Americansweresingledout.Theywerenotwellknown;theydidn’t
havequote“Europeancustoms”thatwereapassforGermansandItalians
nottobetakeninmass.
J.EdgarHooveropposingExecutiveOrder9066
01:10:17:08
DALEMINAMI:
Themilitaryhaddirectauthoritytoissuetheseordersofbanishmentand
exclusion,buttherewereopponentswithinthegovernment.Membersofthe
JusticeDepartmentdidnotfeelthatthiswasrightorfairornecessary.EvenJ.
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EdgarHoover,whoisnofriendofcivilrights,wasagainsttheexclusion.He
declared,“Ihavefilesoneverybodyinthiscountrysowedon’thavetotake
awaythesepeopleasanentireracialorethnicgroup,wecanidentifythe
dangerousones.”Therewasresistancewithinthegovernment,buttheir
voicesweredrownedout.
EarlWarrenandpoliticsbehindExecutiveOrder9066
01:11:00:06
DALEMINAMI:
Partofitispurepolitics,andthat’swhereEarlWarrencuthisteethandgot
hispowerbase,bydeclaringthatJapanese-Americansweredangerous,and
oneofhisfamouscommentswas,“Thefactthatnosabotagehasoccurredisa
disturbing,thatmeansthatitisprobablygoingtooccurbyJapanese-
Americans”whichisofcourseillogical.Buttherewereelectionsduringthat
periodoftime,EarlWarrenwasveryambitious,aswerealotofpoliticians.
Therewasalsowarhysteria,therewasracism,andifyoucombineallthose
elements,allthosedifferentfactors,you’repointingtowardsacivilrights
disaster.
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Thepoliticsoffear
01:11:50:13
DALEMINAMI:
Ithinkthepoliticsoffearhavebeenastapleofprettymucheverycountry,I
wouldn’tjustsingleouttheUnitedStates.Feardrivespeopletodothingsand
getsotherpeopleelected,andthat’shappeninginEuropetoday,forexample.
So,Ithinkit’saverycommonprinciplethatweshouldnotbesurprisedat,
butweshouldbeverycarefulwhenfearisusedasamotivatingforcefor
electedofficialsaspartoftheirplatform.That’sdivisive,that’sdangerousand
thatleadstotheseterribleconclusionsandactionsbythegovernment.
FDRandwhitesupremacyduringtheJapanese-Americanincarceration
01:12:32:19
DALEMINAMI:
Ifyouread“ByOrderOfThePresident,”it’sabookbyaguynameGreg
Robinson,FDRwasessentiallyawhitesupremacist.Hewasaeugenics
devotee.HefeltJapanese-Americanswereunassimilable,andyethe
suppressedalotofthoseopinions,andtobefairhedidhavesomevery
complimentaryviewsofJapanese,butIthinkhewasveryisolated.He’sin
WashingtonD.C.,allthisstuffishappeninginCaliforniawherethegrowers,
thefarmersaredemandingtheousterofJapanesebecausetheywere
competition,politiciansarescreamingfortheirincarceration,soIthinkhe
wasprettyisolated.IfhiswifeEleanorwerePresidentthiswouldnever
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happen,becauseshewasverymuchmoresympatheticandunderstandingof
thehumantragedythatwasabouttounfold.
Conditionsoftheincarcerationcamps
01:13:38:21
DALEMINAMI:
Thecampswerenotcamps,theywereprisons.Theywerebarbedwireonthe
outside,gunsandguardstationswithgunspointedin.Commonlatrines
withoutdoors,thefoodwasterrible,inadequatemedicalcare.Theywere
placedinsomeoftheworstlocationsyouneverwanttovisitbecauseitwas
veryhotandhumidinthesummer,coldinthewinter.IwasinManzanara
monthago,andwhileitwasfairlybenign,itwasstill90degrees,anditwas
fortunatebecausethewindwasn’thowlingandthrowingsandeverywhere.
Theylivedindustybarracks,twotothreefamiliesatatime,therewere
cracksinthewalls,sotheyhadtostuffnewspaperintostopthewindfrom
blowingin.Theyhadnopersonalfreedom.SoIthinksomeoftheworst
damagewasnotjustthephysicaldifficultyoflivingintheseconditions,itwas
theabjecthumiliation,theshamethatwasimposeduponthesepeople.The
lossofdignity,isasubjectivenotion,thelossofdignityisoneofthemost
devastatingthingsyoucanexperienceasanindividual,especiallyina
countrythatclaimstovalueindividualfreedom.
01:15:05:00
Thegovernmenttriedtosellthisasmodelcitieswherepeoplehaveenough
toeat,theyplaybaseball.So,they’rejustshowingaverysmallsliceofhow
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badtheseconditionswere.Andaspartoftheproofofthat,DorothyLangthe
famousphotographer,wascommissionedtotakephotographsoftheprisons,
andherpictureswerenotflattering—theyshowedterribleconditions,
peopleinmisery.Sothosephotographsweresuppresseduntilthislastyear,
2018,whentheywereopenedupandyoucouldseethatthereisanotherside
tothestoriesthegovernmentwastryingtoselltotheAmericanpublic.The
storiesthattheyweresellingwasthatwe’redoingthisfortheirprotection,
they’relivingingreatconditions,theygetthreemealsaday.Andthatreally
didselltotheAmericanpublic.Tothisday,theysay,“Welltheywereluckyto
beinthesecamps,”whentheywerereallyprisons.“Theydidn’thavetowork,
threemeals,greatmedicalcare,”andyethowmuchdoyoupayforthelossof
liberty?Howmuchisthatworthtoyou?Isitworththreemealsaday?Idon’t
thinkso.Truthfullytheconditionswereabysmalanddismal.Itwasanawful
placetobe,notonlyinthegeographiclocations,butinthetypeoflifestyle,
services,amenitiesyoucouldhavewhenyoulivedathomeinLosAngelesor
Seattle,WashingtonorSanFrancisco,andnowyou’vegottoliveinthese
barracksinterribleconditions.Ithinkthoseconditionswerenotwellknown
totheAmericanpublicpartlybecauseofthepropaganda,sofolksthought
thesefolkswerelucky.Whattheydidn’tshowverymuch,theydidn’tshow
barbedwireinanyofthose,orthegunspointingin,sotheylooklike,quote
“camps.”
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Japanese-Americanssuppressingwhathappenedtothem
01:17:16:02
DALEMINAMI:
Japanese-Americanwhentheylefttheprisonsinthemid40sdidnotwantto
talkaboutthis,sotherewasverylittleliterature,verylittlecommentary
aboutwhathappenedtothem.Therewerelegalissuesthatwerepublicized,
buttheyreallywantedtogobacktotheirhomestorebuildtheirlives.They
feltthattheydidn’thavetimetodwellontheseterribleinjustices.Theyhad
tomakealiving,hadtoraisetheirfamilies.So,allofthatwassuppressedfor
yearbytheJapanese-Americancommunityuntilthecivilrightsmovement.
Thecivilrightsmovementsparkedaninterest,ignitedtheimaginationof
Japanese-Americanstodiscoverwhatreallyhappened.ThatledJapanese-
Americansdownthatpathtoself-discovery,tofindingtheirvoices,totalking
aboutwhathappened,towritingaboutwhathappened,tothepointthat
manyinthatcommunitywhowereterriblyoutragedbecausetheyhad
suppressedallthatangerandbitternessforyears,andnowpeoplewere
writingaboutitandtalkingaboutit,whenAfrican-Americanswhoblazedthe
pathforJapanese-Americanstobegintalkingaboutcivilrightsandwrongs,
thatJapanese-Americansbegantoopenup,andmoreinformationbecame
availabletothepublicatthattime.
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HowMinamilearnedabouttheJapanese-AmericanIncarceration
01:18:55:08
DALEMINAMI:
I’vereadaboutthecasesandtheincarceration,oneparagraphinhighschool,
alittlebit,fiveparagraphsincollege,andwhenIreadtheKorematsucasein
highschool,itsparkedaninteresttounderstandingwhatreallyhappened,
becauseitwasatthesametimethethirdworldstrikeswereexplodinginthe
country,andthosestrikespartofthegoalwastodiscoveryourtruehistory.
AsIlearnedmoreaboutwhathappenedtoJapanese-Americans,themoreI
realizedthatthiswasaterriblecivilrightstragedy.Atthatpointmyinterest
wassparkedandthenItaughtatBerkeleyandlearnedmoreandmore
becauseIhadtolearnthematerialstobeabletoteachtheclasses.That
probablyputmeontheroadtonotjustself-discovery,butdiscoveryin
relationshiptothiscountry’shistory.
CasebackgroundforFredKorematsu,MinYasuiandGordonHirabayashi
01:20:00:04
DALEMINAMI:
Theoriginalcasesbeginin1942and‘43andalawyernamedErnestBessig
fromtheNorthernCaliforniachapteroftheAmericanCivilLibertiesUnion
approachedFredandaskedhimifhewouldbeatestcase,andFredwhowas
reallyupsetaboutbeingimprisonedandabouttobeexcludedagreedtodo
this.SoACLUpreparedatestcaseforFred.Fredchallengedtheexclusion
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anddetentionofJapanese-Americans.Hiscasewenttoappealwithtwoother
Japanese-Americanswhochallengedthemilitaryorders,GordonHirabayashi
andMinYasuiinSeattleandPortland,respectively.Fred’scasewasheardin
SanFrancisco,andeventuallyallthreecasesfoundtheirwaytotheSupreme
Courtin1943.Fred’scasewassentbackdowntothe9thCircuitandthis
wholerecord,thiswholejourneyofthosethreecaseswasmanipulatedby
theSupremeCourt.Itwasacontroversialsetofcases,soGordonandMin’s
caseswereheardfirstontheissueofcurfewandexclusionin1943.The
courtruled,inGordonHirabayashi’scase,onlyontheissueofcurfew.It
skippedtheexclusionwhichwasessentiallyastratagembyboththe
governmentandtheSupremeCourttoavoiddealingwiththelarger
deprivation,exclusionvs.curfew.SothecourtinHirabayashilaidoutthe
rationaleofholdingthecurfew,andlatertheexclusion.Theproblemforthe
court’sopinionwastheyhadnoevidencetoprovethatJapanese-Americans
weredisloyalorcommittedanyactsofsabotageorespionagebecauseno
Japanese-Americanhadeverdoneso.So,theywereleftwithabarrenrecord
onGordon’scase,sotheyessentiallyhadtomanufacturearationale.
01:22:08:23
Andtheycreatedthisrationalecalledthe“racialcharacteristics,”or“ethnic
characteristics”usingperipheralfacts,factsthathadlittlebearingon
whetheryou’regoingtocommitsabotageorespionage,likeJapanese-
American’sworshippedShinto,theysenttheirchildrentoJapanfor
education,thattheylivednearsensitivemilitaryfacilities,eventhoughthe
facilitieswereactuallybuiltaftertheJapanesehadsettledthere.Andthat
Japanese-Americansspokeadifferentlanguage,theysenttheirkidsto
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Japaneselanguageschools.Theywentonwiththesesociological-cultural
facts,factsthatdidnotsaytheycommitespionageorsabotage,andtheyhad
todothisbecausetheyhadnootheroptiontojustifywhattheyweredoing
withouttheevidenceofanyactualovertactsofespionageordisloyalty.
Basedonthat,essentially,theyconcludedthattheseethniccharacteristics
determineapredispositiontodisloyalty.Andonthatbasis,theyupheldthe
militaryjudgement.OneoftheinterestingthingsI’vealwaysfoundwas,one
oftheholdingstheymadeinHirabayashiandlaterinKorematsu,was
extremelyweak.TheywouldusethedreadeddoublenegativewhichEnglish
teacher’scringeat:“Wecannotsaythatthemilitaryjudgementwas
unfounded.Wecannotsaythattheauthoritiesdidnothavereasontobelieve
blahblahblah.”It’slikegoinghomeonValentine’sDayandtellingyour
significantother–“HoneyIcannotsayIdonotloveyou.”It’snotastrong
wayofmakingaconclusionorsayingadeclaratorystatement,ora
declaration,andyetthat’swhattheSupremeCourtdidbecauseyoucould
smelltheweaknessinthatdecisionbecausetheyhadnoevidence.Yetthey
hadtobow,theyfelt,tothemilitary.Theywereinatimeofwar,theyhad
someofthemostesteemedleadersinthecountrywhohadproducedthis
travesty,youknow,FranklinDelanoRoosevelt,sotheyupheldthedecisionin
Hirabayashi.
01:24:32:03
DALEMINAMI:
Andayearandhalflater,Korematsu’scasecomesup,butit’samoreserious
claimbyFredKorematsu.It’snotonlytheexclusion,theleavingand
banishingfrommyhome,buttobedetainedinaprisonwithoutdueprocess
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rightsbasedonracialdiscrimination.So,Fred’scaseraisedsomemore
difficultissuesforthecourt.SoforexamplethecourtinHirabayashiruled8-
0infavorofthegovernment.InFred’scaseitwasnow6-3.Thereweresome
vehementdissentsthatareclassicstatementsofadissentingJusticeatthe
time.WhethertheyusedthesamerationaleasHirabayashi,thedecision
itself,ifyoubreakitapart,ifyoudeconstructit,it’sludicrous.Itsays
“Korematsuwasnotexcludedfromthemilitaryareabecauseofhostilityto
himorhisrace.”Wellwhatotherreasonwasheexcluded?Noothergroupin
masswasexcludedotherthantheJapanese.Italsostartswithanincredible
magniloquenceabouthowimportantourrightsare.Thatwe“can’ttakeaway
ourrightsintheemergencyunlessthereisagreatimminentdanger”andgo
ontosayotherstatementsthatofcoursetheyignore.Thenfinallyoneofthe
most,Ithinkproblematicpartsofthatdecisionwastheindifferencetothe
judgementoftheexecutivewithoutjudgingthefacts.Theysaid,“Wellyou
saythey’reindanger?We’regoingtoacceptyourrationale.”Andthattotally
abdicatestheroleofacourt,whoissupposedtodeclarethatnobodyisabove
thelaw,andwehavearighttoexamineyourrationaleforwhyyousaythisis
importantenoughtoimprisonthatmanypeopleforthatlong.So,Fredlost
hiscaseintheSupremecourtin1944basedontherationalethatJapanese
havethesecharacteristicsthatpredisposethemtodisloyaltyandpossibly
espionageandsabotage,andalsobecausewearegoingtodefertothe
militaryjudgement,orexecutivejudgement.
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Korematsu,HirabayashiandYasuidenyingExecutiveOrder9066
01:27:04:22
DALEMINAMI:
Allofthemphysicallydeniedinsomeleveltheorders,andit’sreally
extraordinarilycomplex,butFredchallengedboththeexclusionandthe
detentionoftheSupremeCourt.Andthemanipulationthatoccurredin
Gordon’scase—Gordonwassentenced,hewasconvictedofrefusaltoobey
thecurfewandtheexclusionorders,theorderstoleave.Hewasgiven30
daysforeachcount,soatotalof60.Gordonobjected,andheobjectedina
strangeway,hesaid,“JudgecanIhave90days?”Maybethefirsttimein
historyadefendanthadaskedformoretime.Andthejudgesaid,“why?”and
hesaid,“becauseIresearchedthis,andifIget90daysconcurrently,thenI
cangoonaroadcrew.I’dratherbeonaroadcrewoutsidethanindoors.”
Judgesays,“I’llindulgeyouthesentencesareconcurrent”meaning45days
each,90daysaremergedforbothconvictionsasopposedtostackinga30-
dayona30-daytomakeit60.Wellthecourtfastenedonthatinhiscaseto
nothavetodealwiththeexclusion.So,thecourtsaid,thecurfew,whichis
notahugedepravationofrights,butwe’renotgoingtodecidetheexclusion,
becausetheexclusion--thesentencewasmerged,soevenifweruleonone
versustheotherhe’sstillgoingtohave90days.Itwaskindofanartifice,a
manufacturedwayofavoidingtheexclusionissuewhichisamoredifficult
issuetodecide.SowhenFredbroughthisup,hishadboththeexclusionand
theimprisonment,andthosetwowereveryserious.Andsothecourthad
givenitselfayearandahalftotrytogetitselftogetherfromthe8-0decision
wheretheywereintensivedissentseveninGordon’scasetogettoFred’s
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casetothepointwheretheyhadenoughtohopefullyholdamajority
together.Andwhatthecourtdidtherewasonlyruleontheexclusionand
lateronsay,becauseFreddidn’traisedetentionasanissueearlieron,we’re
notgoingtoevendecidethat.
01:29:34:00
Andsotheyavoidedeventhemoreseriousofallcharges—the
imprisonment—asawayofmanipulatingthedecisiontocometoa
conclusion.AndpartofthehypocrisyofthatisevenintheKorematsu
decision,itsaysthat‘Wedon’thavetodealwiththedetentionthereisplenty
oftimetodealwiththatlater,’andlateristwocaseslater,andtwocases
laterisacasecalledExparteEndo,andsheraiseddetentionasa
constitutionalissue,andthecourtsaidinKorematsuthatwe’lldealwiththe
constitutionissuelater.InEndo,theyfinallyruleinfavorofher,buttheyfail
toaddresstheconstitutionalgrounds.So,whiletheysaytwocasesearlier,
they’regoingtodealwiththeconstitutionalcase,theyfailtodosoinEndo
twocaseslater.So,it’ssoclearlymanipulationofawholejudicial,
jurisprudenceofthesecasesthattomeisjustoneoftheirritating,kindword
tosay,reallypissedoff,waythiscourtsystemhastreatedJapanese-
Americans.
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DissentingopinionsinKorematsuv.UnitedStates
01:30:47:18
DALEMINAMI:
ThreeJusticesdissented.JusticeRobertsfastenedonthecontradictory
orders,oneorderrequiringpeopletostayinoneplace,andanotherorder
requiringthemtoleave?Wellwhatdoyouchoose?Eitheroneyou’re
violatingthelaw.HisdissentwasnotasstrongasJustice,twootherJustices.
JusticeMurphy’sdissentwasscathing,itsaid,“Idissentfromthislegalization
ofracism.Thisputsusintheabyssofracism,thisdecision.”AndthenJustice
Jackson,whowaslateraprosecutoratNuremberg,parentheticallyIguess.
JusticeJacksoncomposedoneofthemostquoteddissents,calling“This
legalizationofracismliesaroundlikealoadedweapon,layingaroundforany
authoritywhocouldputforwardaplausibleclaimofanurgentneed.”What
hesaysis,“Byinstitutionalizingthisdecision,thisgivesaprecedentonany
kindofdiscriminationyoucoulddeclareonthebasisof,withoutfacts.”So,
it’scalledtheloadedgundissentandusedoverandoverbecauseit’sso
powerful.
MinamilearningabouttheKorematsucaseandrecognizingfallacies
01:32:08:15
DALEMINAMI:
Theyteachthesecasesinalmosteveryconstitutionallawclassforlaw
studentsandtheyareabstractdiscussionsabouttheconflictingrights,the
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discriminationvsthepowerofthemilitary,thingslikethat.I’mreadingthese
casesandofcoursethisisverypersonalbecauseI’mreadingaboutmy
parentsbeingimprisoned…Andso,I’mreadingthejustificationsthinking,oh
that’sB.S.,thisdoesnotseemtoapply.AndasIlearnmoreabouthistory,I
realizedthefallaciesthatwereputforwardinthesecases.AndIcaneven
recognizesomeoftheinternalandexternalcontradictions,thelackoflogic
onsomeofthedecisions.Infactinlawschooltherewasaprojectthatwas
ledbyaprofessor,aJapanese-Americanprofessor,whogotagrantifhe
couldoverturnoneofthesecases,andIvolunteeredforthatprojectandyet
theyhadenoughpeoplesoIwasrebuffedIdidn’tgettoparticipate.Nobody
atthattimethoughtthesecasescouldbereopened,thesespecificcasesof
thesethreemencouldbereopened.
LegalcriticsreviewingJapanese-Americanincarcerationcases
01:33:25:21
DALEMINAMI:
Legalcriticshavelookedatthesedecisionsfromthestart.Sixmonthsafter
Korematsu,afamousarticlecameoutbythedeanoftheYalelawschool
scathinglydenouncingthisdecision,theKorematsudecision.Similar
commentshadcomeoutovertheyearsthroughoutthe60sand70sabout
thesedecisions.Itwasn’tuntilthecontext,thehistoricalcontextwas
discoveredandpromulgatedaboutJapanese-Americanhistorythatfolks
startedgettingtheideathatthiswasreallywrong.Andnowweunderstand
atthattime,wewouldsay,nowweunderstandthosejustificationswerevery
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weak.Andsothat’swhenpeoplestartedtakingnoticeevenmoreandasI
readsomeofthosecommentaries—therewereanumberofthembytheway
thatcriticizedthesedecisions,itjustmadeyoumoreandmoreupsetthatwe
couldhaveajudicialsystem—I’mstudyingtobecomealawyertopromote
justice,andtoseethissortofthinghappenintheSupremeCourtbythese
supposedlywiseJustices,andit’spersonaltomyfamily.
BecomingoneofFredKorematsu’slawyerstooverturnhisconviction
01:34:48:18
DALEMINAMI:
YouknowIreceivedacallfromamannamedPeterIrons,hewasaprofessor
andalawyer,andhediscoveredevidencethattherewereliespresentedto
theSupremeCourt,thattherecordwasfraudulentlymanipulatedand
manufacturedtojustifythepollingoftheHirabayashi,YasuiandKorematsu
convictions.AndheaskedifIcouldhelpwiththecasesandItoldhim,thatI’d
liketoseetheevidencefirst,becausethissoundedmiraculoustome.And
sureenough,hehadallthesememosfromthedepartmentsownattorneys
andfromothersourceswhichprovedexactlywhathewassaying,thatthe
entirerecordwasmanufacturedtowinthesecasesatallcosts,eventhough
theywerefalseclaimsthatwerebeingmadeintheSupremeCourt.So,I
helpedputtogetheralegalteam,andwegavehimanaudience,wesawthe
documents.Theywereexactlyliketheysaidhewere…andessentially
smokingguns.Wethought,yeah,wecoulddothis,butarethesemenstill
alive?AndPeterassuredme“Yestheyare,”andsureenoughtheywereall
21
willingtostandupandchallengetheirconvictions.Sothat’showwestarted
onthatsetofcases.
01:36:18:08
Hehadreceivedmynamefromacouplesources,lawyersthatIdidn’treally
knowverywellpartlybecauseIhaddonealotofimpactcaseswhichwas
suingthegovernmentandsuinginclassactionsforexample.Ihavehadcases
inWashington,SpokaneIhadcasesagainsttheSanFranciscopolice,against
CaliforniaBlueShield,andinmypublicinterestlifewhenIwasdoingso
muchmoreofthat.PetergotmynamefromoneofMinoriYasui’sattorney’s
inLosAngeles.Andsothat’s,hewantedtofindsomebodyontheWestCoast.
AndtheinterestingthingaboutPeterwashewantedtomakesurethiswhole
effortwasledbyJapanese-Americans,butofcoursetherewerenotalotof
Japanese-Americansdoingpublicinterestwork.Infact,therewerenotalot
oflawyersofAsiandissentatthattimewhenIstartedpracticinginthedark
ages,sothat’swhyIgotthecall.
TheneedforemotionaldistancefromacaselikeKorematsu’s
01:37:21:08
DALEMINAMI:
Asalawyerifyougetemotionalandtooemotionalitcloudsyourjudgement,
sowehadtodistanceourselves.Weunderstoodthemissionwassignificant
historically,possiblyimportant,butatthesametimewehadtomakesure
thatwewereobjectivelyevaluatingthecaseitself,thefacts,thechancesof
winning,thelegalarguments.Astimewentonofcoursewegotmore
22
emotionallyinvestedanddeepdownwewereverymuchsoinvested
becausemostoftheattorneysonourteamweresansei,they’rethird
generationJapanese-Americans.Andsotheyhadbeeninvestedingeneral,
butIthinkweprettymuchsuppressedalotofthatinordertokeepoureye
ontheprize,whichwastowinthesecases.
TheargumentmadeinoverturningKorematsu’sconviction
01:38:13:16
DALEMINAMI:
Thecoreoftheargumentwasthatmisconducttaintedtheentireprocessin
theSupremeCourtandbecauseofthatitcausedamanifestinjustice,andifa
manifestinjusticecanbeprovedwithnewlydiscoveredevidence,whichwas
PeterIronsdiscoveriesandAikoYoshinagaHerzig’sdiscoveries,thenyou
couldreopenyourcaseandgetyourconvictionthrownout.Soourwhole
argumentwasthiswasafraudontheSupremeCourt,anditwasadeliberate,
intentionalmisrepresentationbycourtofficersliketheSolicitorGeneralthat
ledtoamonumentalinjustice.Thatwasthebasisofourargument.
FredKorematsu’sattitudetowardsreopeninghiscase
01:39:00:21
DALEMINAMI:
Fredwasveryquietandreservedwhenwefirstmethim,ofcoursehe
changedovertime.Hewasveryenthusiastic,whichsurprisedus.Weknew
23
GordonandMinwere,onewasaprofessor,onewasalawyer.Fredwasa
draftsmanandawelderwhenhegotarrested.Wefeltthatwedidn’tknow
Fredverywell,butasweprogressed,wecouldseeFredwasreallyoneofthe
strongestadvocatesforhisownright,notjustforhimself,butforothers.I
thinkithastobementionedthatFredandhiswifeCatherine,Catherinewas
apartofthatteam.ShewasaCaucasianwomanfromSouthCarolina,andjust
abrilliantwomanwhohelpedusbothlegallyandpolitically,sheunderstood
thingsandwasveryhelpfultous.Fredhadastrongsenseofrightandwrong.
Thingsinsomewayswereverysimpletohim.HewasanAmericancitizen.
Whyshouldhebetreateddifferentlythananyothers?Andyoucomparehim
toGordonandMin.Gordonhadarationalethat,toseedtothemilitarywould
belikewavinghiscitizenshiprights.Minhadalegalargument:thisis
discriminationIshouldnotbeapartofthistaintedprocess.Fredwasvery
simplehesaid,“Thisisjustwrong.”Andthatsimplestrengthwasas
powerfulasanyotherrationaleyoucouldeverdiscover.
TheoutcomeofreopeningFredKorematsu’scase
01:40:44:12
DALEMINAMI:
Wewentthroughaseriesofhearingsandwentthroughwhatwerecalled
discovery,obtaininginformation.Andatthefinalhearingthatwewere
supposedtohave,wearguedthatFred’sconvictionhadtobeoverturned,
andnotonlythatwehadtohavefindingsoffacts,wehadtohaveconclusions
oflaw.Weneededanopinionfromthejudgethatwhatwasdoneto
24
Japanese-Americanswaswrong.Anditwasnecessaryonmanylevelsnotjust
forFred’ssatisfaction,theJapanese-Americancommunity,butitwasforthe
battleofredressinCongressthatwaswagedatthetime,andweneededa
legalopinionthatwouldcounterthe1943and44decisionsbytheSupreme
Courtthatopponentsoftheredressmovement,redressforJapanese-
Americanswereusingtotrytodefeatthatredress$20,000apologyfor
Japanese-Americans.
01:41:54:21
Atthatdayincourttheyhadtochangethecourtroombecausesomany
peoplewantedtogo,andtheymovedittoaceremonialcourtroom.Andthe
workteamsfromHirabayashiandYasuicasescamedownandtheaudience
wasfilledwith—itwasabsolutelypacked—peoplewereinthejurybox,we
hadreportersthere,council.Anumberofthefolks,perhapsamajoritywere
Japanese-Americans,theretowitnessthetrialtheyneverhad.Theywerea
majorityinthecourtroom.Iopenedwithmyargumentwhichwas“Weare
heretodaytoseekamajorofjusticedeniedtotheJapanese-American
communitysome40yearsago.”AndIwentontoarguewhyfindingsoffact
wereabsolutelynecessary.Wehadtopublishanopinion.Notonlyoverturn
hisconvictionbuthaveawrittenopinion.Atonepointtheotherattorneyfor
theUnitedStatesgovernmentgavehisrebuttal,whichwasessentially,“Let
bygonesbebygones.”Anditwasaveryweakargument,whichofcourse
nobodyboughtatthetimeincludingthejudge.Andthenweaskedthejudge
toindulgeusandletFredspeak.Andunusualforyourclienttospeakin
court,butFredgaveaverypowerfulpleatotalkabouthowhehadcometo
thiscourtroomyearsagoinhandcuffs,andhehascomeheretodaytomake
25
surethatthisdoesnothappentoanyotherAmericanagain.Withthatthe
courtclosedtheargument.And,incourts,inargument,whenyouarguein
courtthejudgesusuallytakeitinsubmissionwhichmeanstheydon’tmakea
rulingandtheywalkoffthebench.Wellshedidn’tdothat;shegaveusher
oralopiniondirectlyfromthebench.Anditconfirmedandvalidatedalmost
everythingwesaid,thattherewasmisconduct,thegovernmentattorneys
knewit,thatsomeofthedecisiontoincarcerateJapanesewaspropelledby
racism,andhadthecourtknownofthiscontraryevidencethatcontradicted
theirownargumentsintheSupremeCourtin1943and1944,thedecision
mightbedifferent.AndwiththatshethrewoutFred’s40yearoldconviction.
01:44:35:00
InthatcourtroomasIwasarguingyoucouldhearpeoplesnifflingandcrying
andJapanesetendnottoshowtheiremotions,butyoucansensethe
intensityofwhatwasgoingoninthatdayforthetrialtheyneverhad.After
weleftandwentoutsideinthehall,folkswerecrying,hugging,theywere
reallyecstaticabouthavingtheirdayincourtthroughFredKorematsu.And
afterthattheJapanese-Americancommunity,withfindingsespeciallywhich
wereverypowerful,reallyembracedFredKorematsuandwhathehaddone,
andthelegalcasewehadbroughtthatwasdoubtedbyalotofpeople,that
we’dwinthese.
26
Trumpvs.HawaiiprovidedanopportunitytooverturnKorematsuvs.UnitedStates
01:45:25:11
DALEMINAMI:
InordertogetbackintotheSupremeCourtyouneedafactualsituationthat
isexactlylikeorsimilar.TheCorumNobusisaspecialkindofprocedurethat
onlygetsridoftheconvictionofthedefendant,itdoesn’toverturnthe
SupremeCourtrulingbecausetheSupremeCourtrulingis,itdoesn’t
overturntheSupremeCourtruling.Soyouneedanotherfactualsituation
thatisfairlysimilar.EnterTrumpvs.Hawaii,andthatisascloseasyoucan
gettooneofthosesituationswhereacourtcouldoverturnKorematsu.
SimilaritiesbetweenKorematsuvs.UnitedStatesandTrumpvs.Hawaii
01:46:10:18
DALEMINAMI:
Trumpvs.Hawaiiwasachallengetothequote“travelban”against
predominantlyMuslimcountries.ItwasreallyaMuslimban,andifyou
reviewthestatementsmadebyDonaldTrumpthatwereanti-Muslim,that
wantedthemtoceaseimmigrationhere,toerectblockagestotheir
immigration,thatledtoeventuallyanexecutiveordertoblockimmigration
fromMuslimcountries.Theorderwasamendedafewtimes,butitwasreally
predominantlyMuslimcountries.So,itwasreligiousprofiling,unlikethe
racialprofilingJapanese-Americansendured.Andso,tocastagroupwith
suchbroadstrokesnotonthebasisofindividualdanger,whichwasdoneto
27
Japanese-AmericansmadethiscasequitesimilartotheKorematsu,
HirabayashiandYasuicases.ItfounditswaytotheSupremeCourt.Trump
hadlostineverycircuitcourtandalmostevery,heloston,Trump’sexecutive
orderlostoneverydistrictcourtandcircuitcourt,beforeitgotitthe
SupremeCourt.AndwhenitgottheSupremeCourt,JusticeRobertsupheld
theMuslimban,andherefusedtolookatthereport,uponwhichtheMuslim
banwasbased,becausethegovernmentrefusedtoproduceit.Itwasnot
dissimilartothesuppressionofevidencewhichledtotheKorematsu
decisionin’44.Healso,JusticeRobertsfailedtodoanyactiveinterrogation
usingrigidscrutiny,whichisthestandard,tolookatthisasacasewhereyou
havetolookveryclosely,testtheevidence,determinewhethertherewasa
justifiablerationale.Instead,healmostsaid,“becausethePresidentsaidit,
we’regoingtobelieveit.”
01:48:15:10
Andthat’sthedangerofthatdecision,becauseitisreallyKorematsu
revisited,it’sanechoofhistory.JusticeSotomayordissented,andinher
dissent,eventhoughJusticeRobertsclaimsthatKorematsuwasoverturned,
shesaysthatthisisessentiallyahollowvictorybecauseitredeploysonebad
decisionforanother.IfyoureadtheRobertsquote“overturning”of
Korematsu,it’snotreallyoverturning,symbolicallyit’sveryimportant,but
it’saveryhollowvictoryinthesensethatheparseshiswords.“Korematsu
wasoverturnedinthecourtofhistory.Itwaswrongthedayitwasdecided.”
InsayingthatheoverturnsKorematsu,inthenextbreathheupholdsthe
travelbanbydeferringtothePresident.SothatdeferraltothePresident,or
deferraltothemilitaryortheexecutive,isthemostdangeroustypeof
28
precedentyoucouldhave.It’sthesameonethatwasusedinKorematsu,it’s
thesameonethatwasusedinTrumpvHawaii.
Nationalsecurityasajustificationforignoringcivilrights
01:49:28:23
DALEMINAMI:
I’vealwaysfeltthathistoryhasshownthatthereisalwaysgoingtobea
tensionbetweencivilrightsandnationalsecurity.There’sgoingtobea
balancesomewherealong,butalsoinmymind,andtheKorematsucase
provesthisaswellasTrumpvHawaii.There’sgottobesometransparency,
yougottohavesomepublicrationale,andofcourseintimesofwaryoucan’t
tellmilitarysecrets,butsomebody’sgottobeabletoofferenoughevidence
tojustify,whichisessentiallyagraveviolationofcivilrights,orracial
profilingforthatexample,religiousprofiling.Inordertodothatsomebody
hastobeabletotesttheevidence,andthatsomebodyisusuallythecourts.
Whenthecourtsstepdown,whenthecourtsabdicate,whentheygiveup
theirrole,youonlyhavetwobranchesofgovernment,becausethePresident
isgoingtogettodowhateverhewants.Thatwholechecksandbalances
systemfallsofthefailureofthecourtstoexercisetheirproperrole.Ifeelthat
whenyouhavethesenationalsecurityjustificationsfordoinganything,given
ourlensofhistoryasJapanese-AmericansorwhathappenedtoKorematsu
orHirabayashiorYasui,weareskeptical.Andwefeelthatthecourtsneedto
domoretoensurethereissometransparency,ortheexecutivegovernment
29
needstodomoretoprovideanhonestjustificationthatisrationalandleads
totheparticularexecutiveorderthatisannounced.
Learningthelessonfromthepast
01:51:21:20
DALEMINAMI:
Youknowtheadage,“Thosewhofailtolearnthelessonsofhistoryare
doomedtorepeatit.”That’saverysimplisticwayofexplainingavery
difficultconcept.Historyisverycomplex,becausewhatI’verealizedisthata
lotofpeopleunderstandhistory,butforotherreasonsfailtoapplyit.Think
Vietnam,thingAfghanistan,thinktheJapanese-Americanincarceration,think
ofwhat’shappenedtotheMuslimregistration.They’rerepeatinghistoryall
thetime,andatlargepartbecauseofpoliticalexpediency.Historycanbe
distorted,too,historycanbechanged,andtherearerevisionistswhosaythe
Holocaustneverhappened,sothathistoryisadynamicprocessthatneedsto
bereaffirmedinitscorrectnessallthetime.
01:52:12:19
Everygenerationhastorelearnthisandknowthisagainbecausethereare
peoplewhodeliberatelydistortwhathappened.Therearepeoplewhofailto
learnorapplyhistorybecauseofpoliticalexpediency.It’sadynamicconcept
andIusetheexampleofavocadoes,becauseyearsagotheytoldus
avocadoesarebadforyou.YouknowIloveavocadoes,andlateronofcourse
theyfindout,ohnoitcontainsreallygoodfat,it’sreallygoodforyou,there’s
aguacamolereliefact.AndIwasdelightedtobeabletoeatavocadoes
30
withoutguilt.Butthat’sanexampleofhowthingschangeandyouhaveto
understandthathistoryisdynamicconceptandjustbecausehistoryas
declaredinonepointintimedoesn’tmeanthathistoryisthesamehistory
thatyouwilllearntoday.Thebiggestpointthoughisthathistoryis
manipulated,subjecttopoliticalexpediency.Decisionsyoushouldmake
basedonpasthistoryarenotalwaysmadejustbecausepeoplefeelthatout
ofexpediency,theywanttomaketheirdecisionsadifferentwayorina
differentdirection.
Ignoranceasthecauseoffear
01:53:34:04
DALEMINAMI:
IdohavesomeempathyforpeoplelivingontheWestCoastatthattime.
Theywereignorant,theydidnotknowwhotheJapanesewere,theywere
scaredbecauseofthepoliticianrants,sotheywerenotalwaysthemost
informedpeople.Buttherearetimeswhenhistoryisveryclear.Thereare
timeswhenhistoryisveryclear.Whenyoumassacre6millionJews,howare
yougoingtojustifythatby,‘Ohitwasthetimes.’Idon’tthinkso.Howabout
segregationorslavery?Therearetimesyoucanunderstandwhypeopledo
thingsorhowtheybehavethatway,butitcertainlydoesn’tjustifythese
kindsofinjustices.
31
Theimportanceofspeakingoutagainstinjustice
01:54:20:12
DALEMINAMI:
Ithinkit’sincumbentuponcitizenstospeakoutagainstinjustice.It’snotan
easythingtodo,it’sverydifficultandIthinkwerelysomuchonourpolitical
leadership,soit’suptoustoelectgoodleaders.Butonanindividuallevel,I
thinkspeakingoutagainstignorance,speakingoutagainstbigotryare
importantthingstodo,becauseonamaybeamacrolevelitmaynotseemto
makeanydifference,butonadaytodaycitizentocitizenlevel,orpersonto
personlevel,asyouchangethecultureofthecountrybyeitherexampleor
byspeakingoutorbyjoiningwithotherpeopletomakeadifference,
changingthecultureisalong,longprocessbutissomethingweneedtobe
committedtodoaseverydaycitizens.
Ordinarypeoplecaneffectchange
01:55:23:22
DALEMINAMI:
WhenIwasincollege,westudiedthegreatman,theycalleditthegreatman,
theydidn’tsaygreatwoman.Thegreatmantheoryofhistory,theyhadall
kindsofdifferenttheoriesofhistory.AlndIreallybelieved,Istillbelievethat
massesofpeoplecreatehistory,andinsomecases,agreatmanwillstandup.
MartinLutherKingJr.,MalcolmX,changedthedirectionofthiscountryto
fightagainstracism.ButIthinkpeoplelikeFredisoneofthebestexamples
32
ofsomeonewhowasanordinarycitizen,andIhatetousethewordordinary,
becausehewasanextraordinarycitizen,orhewasanordinarycitizenputin
extraordinarycontext,andsomanytimesthosepeoplestandupanddo
somethingheroic,anditdoesn’thavetobeheroicitjusthastobesomething
thatmovesusforwardalittlebit.So,Ibelievethateverydaypeopleallofus
asAmericanscancontributetothemovementofsocialjusticeforward,that
archofhistory,thatarchofjusticethatMartinLutherKingJr.talksabout.
Andifyouseeyourselfinisolationofcourseyoucansay,“WellIcan’tmake
anydifferenceI’mjustoneperson,”butifeveryonesawthemselvesthatway
thennothingwouldhappen.Butifyouseeyourselfasalargergrowing,
evolvingcommunityofpeople,likeapartofariverthatisflowingforward,
thenyouunderstandthatyou’repartofalargerflowofevents,ofculture,
society,thateventuallycanachievesomesocialjusticedowntheline,
upstream.
Minami’sfatherbecomingarepublicanaftertheincarceration
01:57:19;16
DALEMINAMI:
MyfatherwasaDemocratuntilhewasputintotheprisonsbyFDR.Afterthat
pointhebecameanalmostlifelongRepublican,andhisexplanationforthat,
whichIdiscussedwithhimwhenIwasofvotingageandwantedtobea
Democrat,wastheyputusintheprisons.So,hewasembittered,andthat
washiswayofatleastshowingusdispleasure,Iguessyoushouldsay,at
beingtreatedthatwaybyDemocrats.Buthewasalsoasmallbusinessman,
33
ownersoI’msurethatledintoit,andyethenevervotedRepublicanuntilmy
motherwhowasprettymuchalwaysaDemocratcommittedhimhehadto
voteDemocratwhentheVietnamwarwasraging,sohevotedforEugene
McCarthyforthefirsttime.AndsoafterthathestayedaDemocratwhichwas
interestingtome,becausemaybehewasretired.Heharboredalotof
bitternesswhichweneversaw,andwedidn’tseeituntiltheredress
movementstartedandloosenedthetonguesofJapanese-Americanstohelp
themreclaimtheirpoliticalbirthright,theirlegacyofbeingAmericans
citizen.Andatthatpointhestartedtalkingmoreandmoreandwelearned
moreandmore.Thiswasinmymid30s,soalongtimeaftermyyouthful
years,butIthinkoncehisvoicewasloosened,hewasabletotellussomuch
moreabouthowupsethewas,showedusdocumentswhichIstillhave,and
wasquiteanimated.
WhatoverturningKorematsu’sconvictionmeantforMinami’sparents
01:59:15:02
DALEMINAMI:
Yeah,myparentswerealivewhenwearguedtheKorematsucase.Myfather
passedawayaboutfouryearslaterafterthecase.Hewasextremelyproud,
notjustofme,butthathehadsomesortofvindicationforalltheliesthat
weretoldaboutJapanese-Americans,alltheracismheenduredinhis
lifetime.So,Ithinkhefeltgoodabouttheideaofredress.Heneverlivedto
gethis20,000dollarsapology,buthewascertainlyquiteelatedthatheknew
heneverdidanythingwrongandnowitwasprovenincourt.
34
Reasonvs.emotioninthedecision-makingprocess
01:59:59:19
DALEMINAMI:
Reasonisadifficultcounterweighttoemotionaldecisions.OvertheyearsI’ve
doneenoughtrialstoknowthatjuriesprettymuchrespondemotionallyto
theevidencesotospeak,andthenanchororjustifytheirdecisioninsome
intellectualbasisorreason.We’veseenthatinthemostrecentelections.
Peoplewillvoteagainsttheirself-interestbecausetheyhaveanemotional
connectionandsotheirself-interest,whichisrational,doesnotcomeinto
playasmuch.It’saverydifficultpropositiontochangepeople’semotional
justification.IthinkyouhavetoengageindialogueIdobelievethatyoucan
changepeoplebytalkingtothem,butyouhavetotalktopeopleinamanner
inwhichyoucancommunicate.So,ithastobeinexperiencestheyknow
aboutorcanrelateto.Itcan’tbeoverwhelmingthemwithfactsnecessarily.
Andithastobeappealinginsomewaystotheirownself-knowledgeorithas
toappealtothemthroughtheirownexperienceorcommonalityof
experiences.InthatsenseIthinkyoucanreachpeople,becauseyou’vegotto
gettotheirheartasmuchasyougettotheirminds,becauseifyoudon’tget
tothememotionally,Idon’tbelieveyoucancreateintellectualjustifications
thataresopurelycorrectthatyou’regoingtochangesomebody’smind.ButI
dobelieveifyoucandoitinawaythatrelatestotheircommonalityin
experienceortheirexperiences,youcanactuallycreateadialoguethatthen
allowspeopletoeitherthinkaboutwhatyoumighthavesaidoratleasthave
somechangeofheartbasedonwhatyou’veagreedupon.
35
ExplainingtheJapanese-Americanincarcerationtoothers
02:02:07:18
DALEMINAMI:
Youhavetodescribewhattheprisonswerelike,becausejustsayingthere
wasterriblewater,ifyoujustsaytherewasterribleconditions,youhaveto
bealittlemorespecific.Youhavetotalkaboutlossofdignity,becausepeople
needtofeelwhatit’sliketobereallyhumiliated.Peoplemightnot
understandsleepingincotsorhavingtogotoopenlatrinesorgetting
inadequatemedicalcare—thoseareprettyabstractconcepts,butifyoutalk
aboutthehumiliationthatpeoplesufferwhentheyaretreatedasanimalsor
lessthanhumanorlessthancitizens,peoplecanallrelatetotheideaof
humiliationmoreso.SoIthinkthat’sonewayofdoingit.Theotherwayisto
connecttotheirownexperienceofracialdiscrimination.Ifyou’retalkingto
a,especiallyagroupofpeopleofcolor,andorwomen,too,theytendtoget
thingsaloteasier.So,tothatextentyoutalktothemintermsofracial
discrimination.Others,especiallyinlawschool,thereisasenseofjusticethat
peoplehave,anditmaybedifferentkindsofjustice,butifyouexplainthe
Korematsucase,orcasesthatweworkedonintermsofthekindof
manipulation,thefraud,themisconduct,peoplehaveasenseoffairness
wheretheysay,ohthatwasn’tfair.Theycanrelatetothat.Theymightnot
agreewithyouintermsofotherproposalsyouhaveorotherideas,buta
senseofjustice,IdobelievethatsomanypeoplehavethatandIthink
appealingtothatwithconcreteexamplesishelpful.
36
ThepossibilityoftheKorematsudecisionbeingoverturnedintheSupremeCourt
02:04:06:10
DALEMINAMI:
Youknow,therearedifferentpartsoftheKorematsudecisions.Thepartthat
saysyoucanincarcerateanentiregroupofpeoplewithoutdueprocess,I
thinkthat’snotonlyoverturnedinthecourtofhistorybutIdobelievethat
legalcommentatorshavedamagedthatprecedenttosuchadegreethatit
won’tbeusedagain.TheprecedentthatyoucandefertothePresidentorthe
executivewithoutanexaminationoftheevidenceisreallyadangerousone
thatisevennowmorestronglyembeddedinourjurisprudencethroughthe
Trumpvs.Hawaiicase.That’sthemoredangerousoftheprecedentsandthe
onewe’regoingtohavetolivewith.Atsomepointyou’regoingtohaveto
hopeforanotherbranchofthegovernment,otherthanthejudiciary,tostep
upandmakeadifferenceintermsofthedecisionsthatarenotgoingtobe
overturnedbythejudiciary.
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