STUDY GUIDE

TO ACCOMPANY VIDEO TAPE

“PSYCHOTHERAPY WITH THE EXPERTS”

FEATURING JOHN KRUMBOLTZ

Jon Carlson

Diane Kjos

Governors State University

University Park, IL

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COGNITIVE-BEHAVIOR THERAPY

with

John Krumboltz

Introduction

This video is one in a series portraying the leading theories of psychotherapy

and their application. This series presents the predominant theories and how they

are practiced. Each video in the series features a leading practitioner and educator

in the field of counseling or psychotherapy. The series is unique in that it features

real clients with real problems. During the course of the series these clients bring

up a number of issues with the therapists.

A theory is a framework that helps us understand something or explains how

something works. Just as there are many different people and personalities, there

are different theories of understanding how people live and how change occurs,

each with its own guidelines for understanding and procedures for operation. The

primary differences between these theories are related to the relative importance

each theory places on cognitive (thinking), behavioral (doing), and affective

(feeling) factors. Each theory has devotees who think and act as the theory

prescribes in order to help people change their lives. Certain theories explain

certain phenomena better than others. The individual counselor or psychotherapist

needs to develop his or her own approach to helping others with problems of an

emotional, behavioral, or cognitive nature. Specific objectives in therapy include

(1) removing, modify, or retarding existing symptoms, (2) mediating disturbed

patterns of behavior, and (3) promoting positive personality growth and

development.

The video begins with a brief discussion with the practitioner concerning the

theory. We then move to the actual counseling session. Finally, the “expert”

discusses the session with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and an audience made up of

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counselors, graduate students, and counselor educators.

Because the video series contains actual counseling interviews, professional

integrity is required to protect the confidentiality of the clients who have

courageously shared their personal lives with us.

Purpose

The series is designed for pre-professional training in graduate and

undergraduate classes in counseling theory. Students will learn about the theory

and watch a leading practitioner work with a client in a "first session" interview.

The series is also appropriate for workshops or individual study for the

professional development of practicing counselors, social workers, clinical

psychologists, or psychotherapists. Professionals will learn from the practitioner

by gaining new ideas and insights which can be helpful in working with current or

future clients.

Learning Objectives

1. Identify theoretical concepts.

2. Recognize specific interventions or techniques.

3. Describe the range of applications of a theory.

How to Use the Video

1. As a standalone activity for professional development or orientation to

Reality Therapy. If you are using the video this way, it might be helpful to first

read about Reality Therapy. See page 28 of this guide for a list of suggested

readings. Or, you may wish to watch the video, read about the theory and then

watch the video a second time.

As you watch the video, note the questions included on the enclosed test.

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This will help you identify key points related to this theory. If you wish continuing

education credit, complete the test and submit it as directed.

2. As an integral part of a course in counseling theory with the textbook,

student study guide and instructor's guide. The text by Jon Carlson and Diane

Kjos, (1998), Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights,

MA: Allyn & Bacon with accompanying Study Guide to Counseling and

Psychotherapy, and Instructor's Guide to Introduction to Counseling and

Psychotherapy, published by Allyn & Bacon of Needham Heights, Massachusetts,

are coordinated with the video tapes and can assist in guiding the student through

the learning process, including key concepts, application, and techniques.

3. As an adjunct in classes to demonstrate a practical application of Reality

Therapy or to demonstrate specific interventions and techniques. Guidelines and

suggested discussion topics will be included in Carlson and Kjos, (1998),

Instructor's Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham

Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon..

4. As a basis for a series of class sections or a workshop for either professional

development or counselor education. You may choose to use all or parts of the

video to support specific teaching objectives. Suggestions for scheduling,

discussion questions and other activities will be included in Carlson and Kjos,

(1998), Instructor's Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy,

Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon.

Abstract of Cognitive-Behavior Therapy Video

This video is approximately 120 minutes long and is divided into three parts:

Part I: Introduction of the theory with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and John

Krumboltz.

Part II: An initial therapy session with Dr. Krumboltz and Robin, a white female,

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where the presenting issue is Robin’s relationship with her mother-in-law.

Part III: Discussion of the therapy session with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, John

Krumboltz and a panel of counselors, counselor educators, and graduate students.

Cognitive-Behavior Therapy with John Krumboltz

John Krumboltz received his Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota. He has

been on the faculty of Stanford University since 1957 where he is a professor in

education and psychology. John has a number of publications covering topics such

as learning theory, behavioral counseling, counseling methods, career decision

making, and assessing career development. He currently serves on the editorial

board of the Journal of Career Assessment and the Educational Research Journal.

Among the many awards he has received for his outstanding work are the

Distinguished Professional Service Award from the American Personnel and

Guidance Association and the Eminent Career Award from the National Career

Development Association. He is an APA Fellow and has held leadership positions

in several professional organizations including serving as President of Division 17

of APA, Counseling Psychology.

Transcript

TH 1 Robin, you and I have just met, and uh, we, are here making a film, and we

have camera people around and three cameras going, and, uh, this film is going to

be seen by thousands of people (CL laughter) I n the years ahead and, uh, the

ground rules here are that you and I have 40 minutes to work together, and we are

going to see if we can accomplish whatever we can accomplish in 40 minutes.

CL 1 Okay.

TH 2 And I am looking forward to doing that with you. (CL laughter) And, uh, I

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understand that you have something on your mind, and I would like to know what

it is.

CL 2 (laughter) Well, I guess, I'm having trouble in, uh, relationships are

complicated with people. Um, but I am having specific problems right now with

my in-laws, and I know that that's common, that everybody, you know, you always

hear all the mother-in-law jokes and things like that, but, um, uh, I'm having some

real difficulty knowing what my boundaries are, how much should I give, how far

should I bend, uh, (T H-Mhm) how much should I really care, should I let it bother

me, should I not? Um . . .

TH 3 It does bother you though.

CL 3 It does.

TH 4 Yeah.

CL 4 It very much does.

TH 5 I, I hear that.

CL 5 Um. My husband is an only child, (TH-Mhm), and for a long time

everything that my mother-in-law said I took personally. Now I know I t's just, it's

because who her son married, it has nothing to do personally, but accepting that is

extremely difficult for me. Um. Anything she says, anything she does, I still take

personally (TH-Mhm), even though I shouldn't.

TH 6 What do you mean you shouldn't? Why shouldn't you take it personally?

CL 6 Because it's not against me personally. It's against the person that married

her husband.

TH 7 Yeah, but you are that person.

CL 7 Or her son.

TH 8 You are that person.

CL 8 Yeah, but . . .

TH 9 And so, tell me more about the specifics of this. What, what exactly, um,

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happens?

CL 9 Well, I mean, I could start from the very, I mean, there is so much history

between us. Um, I don't know how far to go back, um . . .

TH 10 Well, why don't we not go back too far. Why don't we start with more

recent.

CL 10 Okay.

TH 11 What's the most recent thing that's happened?

CL 11 The most recent thing was this past weekend. (TH Mhm) What had led up

to the point was, um, I have a son who is 14 months old. (TH Mhm) When he

was born, I really thought that this would be a time for his parents to become more

involved in our lives and want to have some thing to do with their grandchild.

They never showed any interest whatsoever. (TH Mhm) Um, they live locally

where I do, (TH Mhm) and they only visited maybe 5 times within that year. (TH

Mhm) That was very disturbing to me. (TH Mhm) Um, this past weekend they

came down for a visit completely unexpected. (TH Mhm) I was not prepared. I

don't like surprises. (TH Mhm, Mhm) Um, my husband immediately dropped all

our plans and catered to everything that they did, (TH Mhm) and the fact that the

holidays are approaching, (TH Mhm) I've already made my holiday plans.

Normally we don't do anything with them because they don't want to be involved

with us. (TH Mhm, mhm) Well, all of a sudden now , they want my husband to go

to Tennessee with them to visit their family for Thanksgiving, (TH Mhm) and, um,

I wasn't invited and neither was my son.

TH 12 Oh my! Mmmm.

CL 12 So, um . . .

TH 13 That hurts.

CL 13 It hurts, but I mean, I know that it causes some conflict with my husband

and I, but my husband's not one of those ones to stand and tell his mother, you

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know, don't, don't say anything against her, blah, blah, blah. Because he knows

that she doesn't come around much. But the ridicule that she gives me, she also

gives to him. (TH Mmm) But he's been raised in that type of environment, so he

can ignore it. He doesn't let it bother him.

TH 14 Tell me about this ridicule.

CL 14 Um, well, I've been told that I'm not good enough for her son, that I don't

take care of him enough, um . . .

TH 15 Told to your face?

CL 15 Yes.

TH 16 Mhm. In just those words, "You're not good enough for my son"?

CL 16 Yeah. When I, um, when we were planning our wedding, (TH Mhm) I

wanted to include her and offered her, you know, if she had anything she wanted,

and she said "No, I'm sorry I just can't, I can't be involved in it because I don't

think you're good enough for my son. You don't, you don't treat him the way you

should."

TH 17 Mmmm!

CL 17 I mean . . .

TH 18 Mmmm! Wow, that is really cruel.

CL 18 (giggles) Well, she's the only woman I've ever encountered that can't like

me. (TH Mhm, Mhm) I think I have one of those personalities that I've never met

a stranger . . .

TH 19 Yes, I, I sense that about you, too. I mean, you have a very friendly,

outgoing nature, and I image everyone you meet would just love you.

CL 19 Mhm. And she's the only one that doesn't. And that hurts so much and I .

TH 20 Of course.

CL 20 I can't gain her approval. They're, they're, I mean, I've tried . Um, I've tried

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to kill her with kindness, you know, (TH Mhm, Mhm) remembering her birthday,

holidays, things like that. I've, I've tried it all.

TH 21 Mhm, and what happens when you do that. I mean, you remember her

birthday - what does she say when you . . .

CL 21 She talks specifically to my husband, Ed, and says, "Oh, thank you for that

card", or "Oh, thank you for that gift. You picked it out so well", and my husband

will immediately say, "Well what did you get? I don't know what you got be cause

Robin bought it", (TH yeahm, yeahm) you know, that type of thing. But she

never acknowledges.

TH 22 She won't acknowledge that you did it.

CL 22 No, no. (TH Mhm, mhm) Everything comes from her son. (TH Mhm,

Mhm) But yet, before I came along, he never did anything for his parents. (TH

Mhm) You know, but, that's . . .

TH 23 Mhm, mhm. I can, I can see that would be very, very difficult to take.

CL 23 It is. And it's a relationship that's, that for most people is difficult anyway,

but I guess when I, when I look at my son and know that someday if he decides to

marry, I'm going to be a mother-in-la w, (TH Mhm) and I think to myself, no way

am I going to even think about mistreating, you know . . .

TH 24 Your, your daughter-in-law.

CL 24 Yeah. Just because . . . it's almost inhumane.

TH 25 It is not almost inhumane. It is inhumane. It is, it is.

CL 25 But I don't want, I mean, it has, it has caused problems in the past with,

with my husband. Now, we've basically come to terms that, when they come

around, we try to just be friendly and, you know, and then if they don't come

around, (TH Mhm, mhm) that's okay too. Uh, but, and it doesn't cause problems,

but yet the underlying current is still there, you know, because it, one time I did

confront her that I didn't feel part of the family. Uh, it, it doesn't register with her.

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(TH Mhm) It goes in one ear and out the other. (TH Mhm) I me an, (TH Mhm)

she immediately changes the subject. So, there, there is nothing I can do or say to

her to get her to understand. It's something that I have to learn to accept (TH

Mhm) how to do that and still keep my sanity. It's like . . .

TH 26 Mhm, Mhm. Well, that's, that's an interesting dilemma that you are in.

Let's, let's, so, let's kind of concentrate a little bit on how you might work on this.

Your mother-in-law is not going to change.

CL 26 No. The only person who can change is me.

TH 27 That's right. That's right, the only person who can change is you.

CL 27 Mhm.

TH 28 Your husband probably cannot change.

CL 28 Nope.

TH 29 And, so you and I have this rare opportunity right now to (CL Mhm) see if

we can't think of a way to deal with this situation so t hat you will not feel so

devastated when you get these cuts.

CL 29 Mhm. Yeah.

TH 30 So, let's, let's, let's first, Uh, kind of think now, why, why do you suppose

your mother-in-law does this? I mean, can you, can you put yourself in her shoes

for a moment and . .

CL 30 Yeah, I've taken her son away.

TH 31 Yes, you have. Her only son.

CL 31 Her only son, yeah.

TH 32 And you, Robin, have stolen (CL Yup) her only son. (CL Mhm) And your

husband loves you (CL Mhm) maybe even more than he loves . . .

CL 32 Her

TH 33 his mother.

CL 33 Mhm, mhm, yeah. The, the, it goes without saying there is an intimacy

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between a husband and wife that is not with a parent, uh, (TH Mhm, mhm) uh,

that's why I sometimes think that she's got a problem because she, she had an

unhealthy relationship to begin with, with her son. She was very possessive with

him.

TH 34 Oh, she, oh, she was.

CL 34 Yeah.

TH 35 Mhm. And now her possessiveness is really challenged (CL Mhm) by your

presence.

CL 35 Mhm. Definitely.

TH 36 She must feel absolutely threatened.

CL 36 I think she does.

TH 37 At a, at a very deep level she is, she is, uh, so insecure in, her, uh, herself

that, that she sees what is, to anybody else a normal happy marriage, as a threat to

her.

CL 37 Mhm, mhm. But see she feels insecure, so how she responds is to make me

insecure.

TH 38 Exactly, exactly. That's . . . well, what a wonderful way to do it. What a

wonderful . . .

CL 38 She succeeds very well. (laughter)

TH 39 Well, I hear that. She's, she's a master at this art of making you feel bad.

(CL Mhm) But she is doing it because she herself is threatened by the loss, what

she perceives, as the loss (CL Mhm) of a son. Now, it's, it's a sick way to look at

it. (CL Mhm) I mean, a normal healthy individual would say, "Oh, how

wonderful. Now, not only do I have a son, but I have a daughter and a grandson,

(CL Mhm) and wonderful. What a terrific (CL Mhm) pleasure to have our family

increase so delightfully."

CL 39 Right.

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TH 40 That would be a healthy way to look at it.

CL 40 Right, and she doesn't.

TH 41 She's not a healthy, she's not a healthy person.

CL 41 No.

TH 42 And the more you try to cater to her, the more you try to please her, what's

going to happen?

CL 42 It doesn't affect her. It just makes me more frustrated because I feel that I

can't accomplish anything.

TH 43 Mhm. Exactly, exactly. And do you think that she might even know that at

some level?

CL 43 Her? No. (laughter) No, not her. I don't think so.

TH 44 You don't think she even knows that?

CL 44 No, I'll be honest. I don't think she smart enough to understand any of that.

TH 45 Yeah. But at an emotional level. Intellectually, she probably doesn't.

CL 45 Emotional level she knows she can get to me.

TH 46 Yeah, exactly.

CL 46 Yeah.

TH 47 Exactly. And if she gets to you enough, I'm, I'm looking at this from her

point of view now, or let's you and I both look at it from her point of view. She

gets to you enough at her emotional level, may be she can . . .

CL 47 Get Ed back.

TH 48 Get him back.

CL 48 Yeah.

TH 49 Get him away from you.

CL 49 Mhm. Oh, she's tried.

TH 50 She has? What do you mean?

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CL 50 Uh, (sigh) we had, we were building a new home. And we sold our home.

We had to find a, temporary housing for six weeks. Uh, my parents could not hold

the two of us. His mother refused to let me live with them for six weeks. So, we

just went ahead and decided and went our separate ways. I stayed with my

parents, and he stayed with his parents for six weeks, (TH Mmm, I see) and, it, it

took us probably three months after that six weeks for us to come to terms with

what had happened.

TH 51 Mhm. I can see . . . Now, can, can you and your husband talk about this

situation.

CL 51 Mhm, very, very well.

TH 52 And what is his, what is his attitude about it?

CL 52 He tries to tell me, and this is what bothers me the most, he says that she

and I are a lot alike, and that's why we can't see eye to eye on a lot of things, that

we, in other words, we both want the best for him. He, he really believes that his

mother wants the best for him, and that's okay if that's what he wants to believe.

Uh, but he thinks that I just need to let whatever she says go in one ear and out the

other because that's what he's done. (TH Mhm, mhm) She will put him down, and

it doesn't even register with him as a put-down.

TH 53 What, what does she say to him that puts him down?

CL 53 Uh, that he's overweight. That he's lazy. He's too picky about his house,

Uh . . .

TH 54 Mhm. Does she, does she ever praise him? Does she ever . . .

CL 54 Never.

TH 55 Never.

CL 55 Never.

TH 56 Has she ever praised you?

CL 56 Never. Well, she did one time. On my wedding day, she told me that I

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looked very beautiful. (TH Mmm) That was it. That's the only compliment I've

ever received. (TH Mmm) You know, so, when you get them, you remember

them. (TH Yeah, yeah) But, she, she, it's, it's sort of like, you know, my mother

told me if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Well, she'll

say, she'll speak her mind.

TH 57 She is just the other way around.

CL 57 Mhm.

TH 58 If she has something bad to say, she'll say it. If she has some thing good to

say. . .

CL 58 She won't.

TH 59 She won't say a word.

CL 59 Mhm.

TH 60 Mhm. So, you are in this dilemma of, uh, of, of really being all alone in this

situation. Because your, your husband doesn't quite understand. . .

CL 60 No, he's a lot like my father-in-law. My father-in-law told me the same

thing when I tried to talk to him, that that's just the way she is. You just accept

her the way she is. Uh, he never says anything. I mean, he's got a heart of gold.

He would do anything and everything for us. But he will never disagree with her.

TH 61 He won't confront her?

CL 61 No, never.

TH 62 And, and, your, your husband doesn't confront her?

CL 62 No. Never. So, so, my situation is, you know, to what extent do I try to

have a relationship with them for the sake of my son? That's his grandmother , but

yet, eventually, he is going to know and be able to see that the re is a difference,

(TH Mhm) in her, (TH Mhm) and he is going to see that.

TH 63 Oh, of course he will.

CL 63 Uh, at what point do you, do you say, we are only going to allow certain

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things to happen, or, we are only going to get together occasionally, you know.

The one thing that I have said, regardless, is that if she wants to have anything to

do with my son, I will be included. That's just a given.

TH 64 Good for you.

CL 64 Just because it's my son. You know, I went through the nine months, and I

went through the labor and . . .

TH 65 Exactly.

CL 65 You want to enjoy him, you'll enjoy him with me.

TH 66 That's good, that's good. So you, you have asserted yourself in that way.

CL 66 Mhm.

TH 67 By making your boundaries clear, right?

CL 67 Yeah, because when I really thought that there might be a change in her

when, when he was born, she would call and ask how her boy was , referring to

my son, and I just laid the law down. I said he is your grandson. He's my son, he's

your grandson.

TH 68 Good for you.

CL 68 Yeah, but I didn't feel comfortable doing that.

TH 69 Well, but good for you. You did it.

CL 69 No, but, I don't like, because to me that's almost being, uh, rude.

TH 70 Uh, well, yes, but you. . . I, I, I, for anybody else, I can understand. That

would be sort of, yeah, kind of rude. Because you, you know, someone else might

have meant something different by it, or a slip of the tongue or something. But

you knew full well what she was saying.

CL 70 Oh yeah.

TH 71 You knew full well, and you confronted her on it.

CL 71 Yeah, but I didn't like it. (laughter)

TH 72 Well, but you did it. You did it. Yeah, I think, I think t hat the thing that

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maybe we could do for a few minutes right here is to think about what are the

alternatives that, uh, you face here. I me an, let's, let's just kind of list the possible

things that you could do in this situation, okay? I'm sure you've thought about this

a lot, so why don't you just kind of list what they are.

CL 72 The one that I'd love to do is just no relationship with them at all, (TH

Mhm). But I know that's not possible.

TH 73 Okay, let's list that. That's, that's the first alternative. Okay. If you don't

mind, I'll just make a few notes here.

CL 73 Okay.

TH 74 Of these things. Okay, first thing is just, no relationship at all.

CL 74 Uh, the second would be setting the ground rules. If she calls me, it has to

be at my convenience. It has to be, you know, okay with me. In other words, no

dropping by unexpectedly. Planned, planned visits.

TH 75 All right, so you would set the ground rules. Planned visits only (CL Mhm)

where you have agreed to it in advance.

CL 75 Right.

TH 76 All right.

CL 76 You know, like a phone call.

TH 77 Yeah, a phone call.

CL 77 Or just let things go the way they are. I mean, uh . . .

TH 78 The way they are? That's a third alternative. Just let things go the way

they are, huh?

CL 78 Mhm.

TH 79 Okay, which means that they'd pop over whenever they feel like it?

CL 79 Mhm, yeah. We used to live in the same town, and they used to do that

very frequently, and I put a stop to that, too. (laughter)

TH 80 Oh you did?

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CL 80 I just told her, I said, and sometimes you have to be very rude and crude

with her. But I just told her. She, she used to do it a lot right after we got

married. And I didn't appreciate it, because I'm one of those people that if I know

somebody's coming over, I'd like the house to be at least presentable. Uh, and

finally, I just told her, well, you know, we are a young couple, we might be doing

something, so I would appreciate it if you would call before you came over.

Because we had given her a key. My husband thought she should have a key, and

she would just help herself right on in. (TH Mmm) In other words, there was no

respect of our home.

TH 81 Mmm. Does she still have a key?

CL 81 Nope.

TH 82 Ha, ha! (laughter) The way you said that indicates that you must have done

something.

CL 82 Yeah, well, we moved. That was one of the reasons why we moved was

mainly to isolate ourselves a little bit. We put 30 miles between our parents

TH 83 Oh, okay.

CL 83 just to give us a little bit more, uh . . .

TH 84 a little more distance.

CL 84 Mhm. That helped a lot.

TH 85 Okay, all right, all right.

CL 85 That has helped a lot.

TH 86 Good.

CL 86 Uh, I'm trying to think if there is anything else.

TH 87 Well, okay, having no relationship at all is one. Setting some ground rules

is the second. Leaving things as is, is the third. Um, okay. Anything else that

you've thought of?

CL 87 Well, one thing that I would love to happen but will never happen is for my

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husband to lay the law down.

TH 88 Mhm, mhm. Okay. But, but since your husband is not here to talk to us,

we can't control his . . .

CL 88 And he's not going to.

TH 89 And you know he's not going to anyway, uh, but, but one thing that it does

suggest is that you could have a heart to heart talk with h im about this.

CL 89 Mhm. Which I have.

TH 90 Which you have had, but you are afraid that would never do any good

anyway.

CL 90 Yeah, it, it probably wouldn't. Uh, uh, well, you know, one of the things,

another thing that bothers her, and I don't, I thought about it a lot, I have a large

family. My family is very involved with m e and my son. You know, big extended

family. She has always been intimidated by that also. So, I mean, like a couple of,

like, when my son had his first birthday, I invited all the family. They came , gave

him his gift, he opened up his gift. When he had finished opening up that gift, they

left. She wouldn't stay with the rest of the family for the rest of the party.

TH 91 Oh, she left early.

CL 91 Yeah.

TH 92 After she had done her thing?

CL 92 Uh huh. Yeah. (TH Uh huh) But yet they came over the next day wh en

nobody else was there.

TH 93 Ahh, interesting.

CL 93 So, I, I sometimes think, okay, she's intimidated by my family. Maybe I

need to make sure that she has her own time. That if I do ha ve a family event,

that I do one thing for my side of the family and o ne thing for his side, which his

side is only his parents. (TH Mhm, mhm) but that's more work for me. But yet it

caters to her.

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TH 94 It does, doesn't it?

CL 94 Mhm.

TH 95 It does. You know, what, what occurs to me is, uh, maybe there is a way

of using your family as a, a, a buffer. That is, uh, uh, the only time that you, you

have certain, say, family gatherings, (CL Mhm ) uh, his family and your family

come at the same time. Now she's not going to like that.

CL 95 Right, right

TH 96 We already know that. Okay. But, that's the family gathering time. And if

you had some sort of a ground rule that, that she only ca me over when it was

agreeable with you, (CL Mhm) then you could control when she appeared. And,

and if you wanted to, I mean, just, just to list another alternative here, you could

say, we are not having a family get together until next month, the 29th of next

month, and, uh, so we are going to invite you and your husband and my family

over then. And we certainly hope that you will be able to come.

CL 96 (laughter) But, then I'd never see them.

TH 97 Well, uh, does that bother you?

CL 97 Uh, yes. But it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers me to see that my

husband then doesn't get to see his parents. See, I guess that's why regardless of

what a horrible person she is to me and really is to my husband, my husband s till

loves her because he's her son.

TH 98 That's right.

CL 98 And I have to be respectful of his feelings. (TH Mhm) And I, I couldn't do

that.

TH 99 Okay.

CL 99 Uh, because I would hate it if he ever limited me to when I could see my

mother. (TH Mhm) See, that's where we are drawing the fine lines, is where, I

mean, cause . . .

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TH 100 But now, wait a minute. You are not limiting him as to when he can see

his mother. (CL Mhm) I mean, he can go see his mother any time.

CL 100 No, no, no, see, he never goes to see his mother. His mother comes to see

him. That's where . . .

TH 101 Well, but, he could go see his mother.

CL 101 That's true. He could.

TH 102 He could.

CL 102 (laughter) But it still frees me. I just don't want to end up being the,

whatever decision I decide to make, I just don't want to turn out to be the bad guy.

TH 103 I hear you. That's right. No, you don't want to be the bad guy. But you

also don't want to be abused.

CL 103 Right.

TH 104 You are being emotionally abused right now.

CL 104 Right.

TH 105 By her.

CL 105 Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. But the, it's so hard. My parents taught me so much

to give other people respect. (TH Yes) And it's hard to, uh . . . sometimes I don't

feel like I'm an adult, uh, that I'm still a child (TH Mhm) and that I still have to

respect her. (TH Mhm) It 's hard to stand up on my own two feet.

TH 106 I hear you, I hear you. Uh, but, now, we've actually sort of talked about,

Uh, five alternatives now. (CL Mhm) Let's just see if we could quickly just try out

uh, uh, uh, a narrowing down. One alternative is no relationship at all, and you've

already said, (CL No) that' s not going to, so we cross off number one. Okay,

possibility number two is setting some ground rules for planned visit. (CL Mhm)

That's a possibility.

CL 106 That's a possibility.

TH 107 Okay. And number three is leaving things as is.

20

CL 107 And that's not . . .

TH 108 No, that's not a possibility. And number four is persuading your husband

to (CL laughter) to change his behavior. And you think that's really impossible.

CL 108 Confront this. Yeah.

TH 109 And alternative number five is using your own family as sort of a buffer

and having them over at the same time you have her over.

CL 109 Mhm. That's . . . I would probably use a combination of those two.

TH 110 Of, of those two? Okay, okay. Now, what, what, so let's, let' s for a

minute then go with these two possibilities. Uh, setting the ground rules for

planned visits, and, and, which could include your family if you decided to it that

way. You wouldn't have to every time.

CL 110 Right.

TH 111 I mean, it's always your choice.

CL 111 Right.

TH 112 Okay. Now, would you find it hard, I mean, I sense you would find it

hard, to set up these ground rules.

CL 112 Oh, yeah.

TH 113 Uh, what, what would be the ground rules that you would like to set up?

CL 113 (Pause) Well, probably one of the, the biggest one is that they call (TH

Mhm, mhm) beforehand.

TH 114 Okay. Let's just work, just work with that one for now. Let's , let's, let's

have a little fun here together. (CL Okay) Let's, uh, l et's see. Why don't you be

your mother-in-law for a minute. Try, try to put yourself in her role. I am going

to try to be you.

CL 114 Okay.

TH 115 For a minute, and I'm going to try, I'm going to try to see if I can't talk to

your mother-in-law (CL Okay) in a way that might be helpful. And you try to be

21

your mother-in-law. You got it?

CL 115 Yeah.

TH 116 Now, how do you address her?

CL 116 Dori.

TH 117 Dori, okay. Now, let's, uh, shall we make this on the phone, o r shall we

make it in person?

CL 117 On the phone.

TH 118 All right, on the phone.

CL 118 I'm more confident.

TH 121 Uh, Dori, how are you feeling today?

CL 121 Oh, it's been one of those days.

TH 122 Yeah, yeah? Not so good, huh?

CL 122 No, I'm down on my back again.

TH 123 Oh, that's too bad, that's too bad. Dori, listen, there is something I want

to talk to you about.

CL 123 Uh huh.

TH 124 And, uh, it's kind of hard for me to, to say, but, uh, it's re ally quite

important for me to, uh, to be able to discuss this with you.

CL 124 Uh huh.

TH 125 Uh, one of the things that my husband and I need to do is to, I s to be able

to plan our time together. And, uh it's sometimes hard f or us to do this, uh, when

we have guests that, who drop in unexpectedly, and, and I was wondering if you

would be willing, uh, when you are thinking about coming over, uh, to call us in

advance and see whether or not it is a convenient time, or, or see if we couldn't

negotiate a good time for us to get together. It would really be a much more

helpful way for it to happen. Do you think that we could do it that way?

CL 125 Am I a guest?

22

TH 126 Well, in our house you certainly are a guest. And we would like you to be

a welcome guest when it's mutually convenient.

CL 126 Well, I, I can't believe you just feel that way.

TH 127 Well, Dori, it is the way I feel. I'm being very honest with you. And it's

hard for me to say this to you, uh, but, it, it really is important to me that we have

control of our own time and that we can talk to each other in advance so that we

can plan mutually convenient times to get together.

CL 127 Well, if that's the way you want it.

TH 128 Well, it is the way I want it, and, uh, so I hope you understand.

CL 128 Bye.

TH 129 Great. That's wonderful. Thanks Dori.

CL 129 Mm hum.

TH 130 Talk to you later.

CL 130 Bye. That's exactly how she'd be.

TH 131 Terrific. All right. Now, what, what, uh, uh, let's, let's re verse the

process. You be you, (CL Okay) and I will be your mother-in -law. I'm probably

going to be more ugly than you mother-in-law is. Just to give you a hard time.

CL 131 (laughter) Okay.

TH 132 Okay?

CL 132 All right.

TH 133 All right, so, call me up.

CL 133 Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring.

TH 134 Hello?

CL 134 Dori?

TH 135 Yeah, yeah. Who's this?

CL 135 This is Robin.

TH 136 Robin who?

23

CL 136 Your daughter-in-law.

TH 137 Oh, my daughter-in-law?

CL 137 Yeah, you know the one that's married to Ed?

TH 138 Oh, oh, oh, uh, oh yeah. Oh, Ed, oh yeah. Hi. Yeah, what's u p?

CL 138 Well, uh, I wanted to talk to you. Wondered if you had a minute.

TH 139 Well, I'm pretty busy right now. My back's paining me, and I'm awfully

busy. I don't really have too much time to talk to you.

CL 139 Well, you know this is really important, and Ed wanted me to gi ve you a

call.

TH 140 Oh, well, if Ed wanted it, then what is it?

CL 140 Well, we've been talking, and you know, family time's real important to us,

and you know, with Ed putting in all the extra hours and stuff, we very seldom get

to see one another, and weekends are our only time, and it, it just seems like you're

coming over, you know, quite often, and you sometimes forget to, uh, give us a

call to let us know you're coming.

TH 141 Well, so, so what. I mean, what am I some kind of a guest or something?

CL 141 Well, yeah, in essence you are, you know. Because we make plan s and

we want to do stuff, and when you come over, it just sort of messes up our whole

schedule, (TH Mhm) and I was just wondering if you could possibly start giving us

a call. That way we can make arrangement s to make sure that we're free and,

could spend some time with you then.

TH 142 Well, I am totally offended. I think this is just a terrible way to treat one's

mother-in-law. It's just awful. I mean, just, I, I , I told you before, that you are

just not good enough for Ed. I just think it's awful that you treat me this way. I

just, I just can't believe that you would call me up and say something so cruel and

rude as you just said.

CL 142 Well, you know, Ed and I talked about it, and he was in agreement with

24

me, but he just didn't feel comfortable calling you. I said that I would call because

he doesn't have much time.

TH 143 Well! I just, I just, I just can't believe that you would say this. I just, I

just am really shocked. And,uh, good-bye.

CL 143 (Laughter)

TH 144 All right, now I was, I was maybe worse than she would have been.

CL 144 Uh huh.

TH 145 You think so?

CL 145 Yeah.

TH 146 Yeah, yeah, okay. Good, okay. So, now, now that I was just as bad,

that's just probably the worst it could be, right?

CL 146 Mhm.

TH 147 So, how do you feel now?

CL 147 I'd be like, I would feel like, that I probably ruint [sic] it.

TH 148 You probably what?

CL 148 That I ruined it.

TH 149 Ruined . . .?

CL 149 Ruined it.

TH 150 Ruined what?

CL 150 Ruint [sic] it. That, that's the southern word. That they probably wouldn't

have anything to do with it and it's probably going to all come back in my face, and

Ed's going to say that I hurt his mother 's feelings and, uh, I shouldn't have done

that. Even though we had talked about it. He can sometimes, she'll sometimes

turn it around to say that I said something different than what I actually did.

Which I s one reason why if I confront her, I like to do it over the phone, bu t I

like to have Ed listening on the other end.

TH 151 Oh, that would be good, wouldn't it?

25

CL 151 Yeah. So that he hears the whole conversation to know . . .

TH 152 That would be good. That would be good. And he wouldn't say a word?

CL 152 No.

TH 153 He wouldn't say a word?

CL 153 No.

TH 154 But he would hear everything?

CL 154 Right.

TH 155 And you would have talked with Ed in advance so that he knew that it

was a planned conversation?

CL 155 Right, right, yeah.

TH 156 And, and so if she did come back and twist it around on you, which I'm

sure she will, (CL Mhm) he at least would know. . .

CL 156 Right.

TH 157 You know, you know, one of the things that sometimes is a good idea on

these kinds of things is to tape record the conversation.

CL 157 Mhm.

TH 158 And then you and Ed can play it back when she begins to distort it, and

say . . .

CL 158 Oh, that's a good idea. (laughter) That's a really good idea.

TH 159 Yeah, yeah. What really took place here? And you can get little, little,

uh, devices from places like Radio Shack that you can attach to your phone and

hook it up to a tape recorder and tape, tape both sides of the conversation just

clear as a bell.

CL 159 Mhm. (laughter)

TH 160 And then you will have evidence in your pocket.

CL 160 Yes.

TH 161 Ever after. Exactly what happened.

26

CL 161 Yes. Mhm. That's a, that's a really good idea. Never thought about that.

TH 162 Well, what do you think about it? Do you think you could do something

like that?

CL 162 You mean far as going ahead and calling her and setting the ground rules?

TH 163 Yeahm.

CL 163 Yeah. I would probably discuss them with my husband (TH Mhm, m hm)

and make sure that he was in agreement. (TH Mhm) He doesn't necessarily have

to be the one to call her and tell her because that's not what he is going to do.

TH 164 That's not it, that's not it.

CL 164 But if he was in agreement with them, yeah, I could probably gi ve her a

call and just say you know, we've talked about it, you know and we understand t

hat you do want to have something to do with us, but it, it's difficult for us.

TH 165 Mhm, mhm. I think you can do it. I mean you just did it with me, and I

was, I was more ugly than even your mother-in-law would be. And you did, you

did a perfect job. A super job.

CL 165 Well, see, I always try to pass the buck and say that it was Ed 's idea.

TH 166 That's all right. But it is going to be Ed's idea. It's going to be Ed's and

your idea. (CL Mhm) Because you are going to agree on it in advance. (CL Mhm)

He, he just doesn't want to do it.

CL 166 Right.

TH 167 But he would support you in doing it. And it's clear to me that you know

how to do it. (CL Mhm) Because you just did it right here . (CL laughter) I

want you to try to do it, but I think you can do I t. And I think, I think that once

she gets over the shock of it, she will shape up. She'll never, she'll never approve

of you. Don't ever hope that that's going to happen, (CL Yeah) but she will

respect you because you are not cow-towing to her bully tactics.

27

CL 167 Mhm.

TH 168 She will respect you.

CL 168 Well, that's probably all I want.

TH 169 Yup.

CL 169 Yeah, that's true. That's very true.

TH 170 I think you can do it.

CL 170 (laughter) I'll try.

TH 171 All right! Let's do it! And I think our time is up for right now.

CL 171 Good, good.

TH 172 Okay?

CL 172 Mmmmm

Treatment Plan for Robin

In the next session, Dr. Krumboltz says he would check to see if Robin had

confronted her mother-in-law concerning the circumstances if family visits. He

notes that if she successfully confronted her mother-in-law and was happy with the

results of the confrontation, she might not need further counseling. With her rich

inner resources and with the courage and skills gained from one successful action,

she would be able to move on her own.

On the other hand, this successful confrontation may give her new confidence

to take on other problems and she may want to work with the counselor to do so.

She might want help with other areas of her life such as parenting responsibilities

or career concerns. Krumboltz believes that the counselor should then work to get

Robin to the point of being an independent problem solver as soon as possible.

If Robin did not follow through on her homework, Krumboltz notes that there

would be a good reason for her not doing so. The responsibility is then on the

counselor to help define a task that is more appropriate for Robin. The

28

counselor’s role would be to develop a better learning experience for Robin. The

counselor would want to explore Robin’s feelings and thoughts concerning the

confrontation as well as what she might be saying to herself that prevented her

from taking action.

To Learn More About Cognitive-Behavior Therapy

BOOKS

Barlow, D. H. (Ed.). (1993). Clinical handbook of psychological disorders:

A step-by-step treatment manual (2nd ed.). NY: Guilford.

Beck, A. T. (1976). Cognitive therapy and emotional disorders. New York:

International University Press.

Ellis, A. & Dryden, W. (1987). The practice of rational-emotive therapy. NY:

Springer.

Freeman, A., Simon. K. M, Beutler, L. E., & Arkowitz, H. (Eds.). (1989).

Comprehensive handbook of cognitive therapy. NY: Plenum.

Granvold, D. K. (Ed.). (1994). Cognitive and behavioral treatment: Methods and

applications. Pacific Grove CA: Brooks/Cole.

Kanfer, F. H. & Goldstein, A. P. (1991). Helping people change: A textbook of

methods. (4th Ed.) NY: Pergamon.

Mahoney, M. J. (1991). Human change processes. NY: Basic Books.