Shaw, Gary | Vol (Investigation)

Transcript of the Testimony of Gary Shaw

Date: November 7, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 13, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Gary Shaw In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

GARY SHAW

Taken on Thursday, November 7, 2013, from 10:15 a.m. to

10:34 a.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson,

LLC, 626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper,

State of Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

Gary Shaw

In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED that this Sworn Statement may be

taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a

Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into

typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 6-6

Advice of Rights

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 GARY SHAW

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 A. Boy, I didn't realize it was that involved.

6 Q. Yeah, I've been doing this probably, I've

7 been doing a lot of this the last ten years

8 and it's not fun, but it's a necessary job, I

9 mean I can tell you.

10 A. I'll make my statement and then I'll shut up.

11 When I was Mayor we went through a deal

12 where we had to deal with an ethics violation

13 and I had to let one of the guys - and he was

14 a former Mayor.

15 Q. Nice guy probably?

16 A. He was. He just didn't realize there's some

17 duties that you can do as a Council person,

18 certain that you can't. Judge Curchin was

19 very helpful in that.

20 Q. It's a necessary task because unfortunately

21 people do get out of line, and the real

22 problem with it is there's really so much to

23 be aware of these days and the pay is so

24 great, you know.

25 A. Didn't put me in another bracket by any


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1 means.

2 Q. Yeah. Should I refer to you as Councilman

3 Shaw?

4 A. Just Gary is fine.

5 Q. Okay. Gary, I have just given you the Advice

6 of Rights Form, Exhibit #A. You've read that

7 and do you understand it?

8 A. I believe I do.

9 Q. So basically you're going to tell me the

10 truth, all the truth, and nothing but the

11 truth?

12 A. Try my best to do that.

13 Q. And I've witnessed your signature and we'll

14 mark that as Exhibit #A, is that okay?

15 A. That's fine.

16 Q. As I understand it you're a former Mayor of

17 the City?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And present Councilman?


21 Q. The Mayorship revolves among the people that

22 are on the Council to elect the Mayor?

23 A. Exactly.

24 Q. So any one of you guys could kind of as you

25 put it recycle?


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1 A. Right. That's true.

2 Q. You know that I've been hired, you're aware

3 of my contract and what I'm doing here?

4 A. Yes, sir, I am.

5 Q. And specifically I was asked to look at three

6 major areas. Under my contract I was asked

7 to look at Mayor Pro Tem Scearce's

8 involvement with bookmaking, the leasing of

9 the building, et cetera and so forth; facts

10 and circumstances surrounding the staff I

11 guess of the handwritten note off of Manager

12 Rohr's desk; and I'm asked to inquire as to

13 Council member Woolston and Charlie Kuehn and

14 Four State Homes and all its subsidiaries,

15 and Wallace-Bajjali, all those issues for the

16 sale and leasing of real estate for future

17 development.

18 A. That's true.

19 Q. In regards to number one it has come to my

20 attention in talking with Lane Roberts, the

21 Police Chief, that before you became Mayor he

22 had a meeting with you and Mark Rohr, I

23 think, concerning the history of Scearce's

24 involvement with bookmaking.

25 A. Well, not before I became Mayor. When I was


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1 Mayor.

2 Q. When you were Mayor. He actually made some

3 statements to you, Lane Roberts?

4 A. I can't actually recall exactly how that

5 transpired, but I was made aware when I was

6 Mayor that the FBI was doing an investigation

7 into some gambling going on in our city and

8 Mr. Scearce was one of them that they were

9 looking at. I don't remember the exact

10 details of how that transpired.

11 Q. But that's about all you were told?

12 A. Yes, exactly.

13 Q. Subject to that?

14 A. Yes, that was exactly.

15 Q. Did they tell you that he was not indicted?

16 A. Oh, yes.

17 Q. And he has not been indicted?


19 Q. And this is a twenty year old matter?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So I have been doing that investigation,

22 Police Chief Roberts told me just exactly

23 what he told you, nothing more?

24 A. That's right. That's true.

25 Q. Huh?


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1 A. That's true.

2 Q. And he didn't tell me anything more than

3 that.

4 A. Okay. Are you talking about what he told

5 you?

6 Q. I'm telling you what he told me and what he

7 told you are the same things?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That's basically what the note says. Have

10 you seen the note, the famous note?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. Here is the famous note marked Exhibit #1.

13 You're one of my bosses, you ought to be able

14 to know this stuff. Nothing very important on

15 there.

16 A. I don't see anything extremely important to

17 me anyway.

18 Q. Got the names on there.

19 A. Right.

20 Q. You see the editor's name, Stark?

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. You see the guy that went to prison's name,

23 Lovett.

24 A. Lovett, I remember that. Read that in the

25 Globe.


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1 Q. You see some kind of contributing to a

2 criminal investigation or something like

3 that?

4 A. Yeah, I don't know. I just know of the name

5 that I've heard from the Globe.

6 Q. And you see the date, 8/12/13?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. All right. This is the note that was

9 allegedly stolen from --

10 A. Mr. Rohr's desk.

11 Q. Rohr's desk. That's number two that I'm

12 supposed to investigate.

13 A. I understand it was a little note.

14 Q. A little note, it's been blown up so we could

15 try to read it.

16 A. Right.

17 Q. I have gone over this with Mr. Rohr. He has

18 identified this is his handwriting, this is

19 the note.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. There's not much on here except the editor's

22 name and helpful and contributing to a

23 continuing criminal - I guess what I'm

24 telling you is this is all there is. Is that

25 all there is? This is it.


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1 A. As far as I know that's all there is.

2 Q. I'm not particularly persuaded by this, are

3 you?

4 A. No, Mr. Rohr is one that in when dealing with

5 him he makes notes and he has his notes

6 available. I mean when we have briefings he

7 has a list and he has notes. I do the same

8 thing.

9 Q. Only I try to make them in a more - you know,

10 you can lose these things easily.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Suffice it to say that I want to make sure

13 you're aware there was important information

14 allegedly stolen and that it is.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Chief Lane Roberts hasn't explained anything

17 more to me. I guess he hasn't explained

18 anything more to anybody.

19 A. No, he hasn't. Not to me anyway.

20 Q. There is nothing else to explain apparently,

21 and I'm not going to get that FBI report nor

22 is anybody else. It's not centered around

23 Mr. Scearce.

24 A. It's not.

25 Q. Centered around a lot of other people that


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1 have got nothing to do with it. This guy was

2 questioned because he rented something.

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Do you know anything more about that so I can

5 go forward?

6 A. As far as his association with gambling and

7 that type of thing?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I've known Bill for a number of years, you

10 know, off and on. We've never been what you

11 would call social buddies and all. I knew

12 him vaguely when he worked for the City.

13 Q. What did he do for the City?

14 A. He was in the Parks and Recreation

15 Department, my understanding.

16 Q. Did you ever work for the City?

17 A. No, other than do Council. Of course I was

18 on Zoning and Planning and Historic

19 Preservation.

20 Q. You've been on the Council how long?

21 A. This is my twelfth year.

22 Q. Okay. The next issue that I wanted to deal

23 with you because I was told that you were

24 briefed on this gambling and I wanted to know

25 if they told you anymore than they told me?


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1 A. No.

2 Q. So apparently not?

3 A. No, it was just because he was a Council

4 person and I was the Mayor at the time and

5 the fact that something could come out of

6 that investigation that might involve him

7 that the City Manager and the Police Chief

8 informed me it wasn't in the form of gossip

9 or anything, it was just in the form of

10 telling me what they knew so that I could be

11 prepared if anything came out of it. Nothing

12 ever came out of it as far as when I was

13 Mayor.

14 Q. No indictments, nothing else?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Wallace-Bajjali, is there anything that you

17 have, any fact or circumstance surrounding

18 Council member Woolston's I guess

19 relationship with Charlie Kuehn or Four State

20 Homes, anything you know about that?

21 A. The only thing that I know, of course I've

22 known Mike. Mike and I have been on the

23 Council for about the same number of years.

24 I knew Mike's father before I knew Mike

25 actually.


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1 Q. What did Mike's father do?

2 A. Mike's father had a car lot, a used car lot,

3 nice guy. In fact, he took a set of Titlist

4 set of golf clubs in on a car and I bought

5 the golf clubs. I haven't played in six

6 years, but I bought them from Dale. But

7 actually my knowledge of Mike has just been

8 since he's gotten on Council. I did ask, you

9 know, being 72 years old and being on the

10 Council now for my twelfth year there are

11 people in town that ask me, you know, what I

12 think of this person and what I think of that

13 person. When this information came out in

14 the meeting, which again I think sometimes we

15 act like children rather than adults when we

16 start accusing one another, the accusation or

17 the inquiry that Dr. Rosenberg wanted to make

18 with Mr. Woolston came out and became

19 knowledge to the paper I had people call me

20 and wanted to know what I know about it. So

21 I did, I went to Mike and I said, Mike, is

22 there anything that you've done that's

23 questionable or that's out of line because

24 people are asking me about whether they

25 should support you or not, and I said I just


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1 need an answer from you, is there anything

2 you've done? And he said, no, Gary, there's

3 not. So that's the only discussion I've had

4 along those lines.

5 Q. Have you had the same discussion basically

6 with Scearce?

7 A. I never did ask Bill. I never did ask Bill.

8 Bill is a different personality. I deal with

9 people, I'm a church administrator by trade,

10 and I deal with a lot of people. Bill is

11 kind of a little bulldog. I get aggravated

12 with him sometimes because he doesn't see

13 anybody else's point of view but his own, but

14 still he has a good heart. I see some of the

15 things he's done for other people. In fact,

16 to my surprise a year or two ago when his

17 stepfather-in-law passed away they brought

18 him back here from Florida and Bill asked me

19 to do the graveside for him, which I did. So

20 I mean other than on the Council that's the

21 only interaction I've had with Bill. We

22 don't eat out together, that type of thing,

23 it's just mainly professional through the

24 Council.

25 Q. What do you know about City Manager - what's


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1 your relationship with the City Manager?

2 A. Well, I think he's done an outstanding job

3 for us and I'll be honest with you I have

4 maybe a closer relationship than a lot of

5 people.

6 Q. What is that relationship?

7 A. Pardon me?

8 Q. What is that relationship?

9 A. That relationship is he's a member of our

10 church. That relationship is that several

11 years ago I married him to his wife. That

12 relationship is that when children are born I

13 go to the hospital and see them, but other

14 than that we don't - I think that over the

15 years that Mark has been here his wife and my

16 wife and I and the two of us had dinner maybe

17 once or twice together. Mark and I have gone

18 to lunch once or twice together. I have a

19 great deal of respect for Mark and I've let

20 it be known publicly.

21 Q. My understanding is you're basically the

22 pastor of his church?

23 A. I'm the church administrator. We have a

24 pastor. There are actually eight of us that

25 are considered pastors of the church.


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1 Q. So you're kind of like a council or

2 something?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. What church is that?

5 A. Central Christian Center. The mailing

6 address is 410 Virginia.

7 Q. Do you feel that relationship, have you ever

8 felt that relationship requires you to when

9 he's questioned about his involvements do you

10 believe you should refrain or abstain because

11 of your knowledge of his --

12 A. I haven't gotten into any situation where I

13 felt that our relationship as pastor and

14 church was a conflict, no. If it would I

15 certainly would try to be knowledgeable of

16 that. I told you I'm not a real sociable

17 type person. In other words I love people

18 and we do a lot of things, but at this point

19 in my life by the time I start working at - I

20 get up at 5:30 in the morning. When the

21 evening comes I'm ready to go home and put my

22 feet up and enjoy the dog and my wife, you

23 know, so I don't do a lot of other things.

24 But, no, to this point have I stood up for

25 Mark in some situations? Yes, because I


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1 thought he was right. Not because of our

2 friendship.

3 Q. So essentially anything else I can glean from

4 you as to anybody you would refer me to to

5 further my investigation, any names that you

6 can give me that you would be interested in

7 me talking to these people to acquire

8 additional information?

9 A. Concerning any of the three issues?

10 Q. Any.

11 A. You know, really I don't think so. I think

12 you probably have as much knowledge on them

13 as I. I have a tendency to be the type that

14 does the job that I'm asked to do and was

15 elected to do and I let people take care of

16 their own lives and I take care of my own

17 life. If I'm asked to be involved I am, and

18 if I don't I don't normally stick my nose in

19 where it's not supposed to be.

20 Q. I mean you would be disappointed in me if I

21 didn't follow any potential lead and that's

22 what I'm here for?

23 A. Absolutely, yeah. If I thought that I had

24 information that needed to - I don't go

25 looking for things like that, but certainly


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1 if they come to my knowledge I would be more

2 than happy to whether it had to do with Mark

3 or Bill or Mike, either one, any of the

4 three, but I really don't have. I think you

5 probably with the information is given you

6 you probably know as much about most of it as

7 I do.

8 Q. I'm starting to acquire a good deal of

9 information about your city.

10 A. Well, it's a great place. I'm very proud of

11 it. I have traveled in the past to thirty

12 countries in the world as part of my job

13 years ago with another organization and to

14 say that you love an area people think it's a

15 little old and corny, but I do. And that's

16 why I'm on the Council. It's not because I

17 feel like I know more than anybody else, I

18 just want to give back. Other men and women

19 have volunteered to serve, that's why our

20 city has been what it is, and it's a great

21 time to be a part of it.

22 Q. I think it is. I think you've got a pretty

23 good Council. Right now I know it's somewhat

24 divided,

25 but --


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1 A. Well, it is, and from that perspective I

2 think that there's been a little alignment

3 going on, you know.

4 Q. Posturing.

5 A. Posturing, exactly. And I don't approve of

6 that. When I got on the Zoning and Planning

7 was the first one where you were put in a

8 position to make decisions that affected

9 citizens and everything. I was instructed

10 that you would be given information and you

11 would go and look at the property that you

12 were going to be zoning and that type of

13 thing, but that all your decisions both in

14 the Zoning and Planning and Council you're

15 like a judge. That you made the decisions in

16 the presence of and based on the materials

17 that were brought before you. So I've tried

18 to operate that way.

19 Q. That's what I'm trying to do.

20 A. I understand that very much.

21 Q. And it's a tough situation to be in, but I do

22 want to - I have been in this for a number of

23 years trying to get to these kinds of things

24 and I have acquired certain expertise in

25 trying to get there.


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1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. And I will be making some recommendations to

3 you all, but I would be remiss if I didn't

4 pursue absolutely everything.

5 A. I understand that. And, you know, if there's

6 anything that - again I have a tendency to

7 deal with things that need to be dealt with

8 and then move on and if there's things that

9 come up that you'd like to ask me about I'm

10 free any time to answer anything that you

11 want to ask me.

12 Q. I'm going to give you one of my cards and if

13 something does come up to your attention that

14 we have not talked about that you think, hey,

15 Mr. Loraine is not doing his job unless he

16 looks at one more issue please feel free to

17 call me.

18 A. Oh, I will.

19 Q. Okay?

20 A. I'll do it.

21 Q. Thank you, Mayor. Anybody that ever gets to

22 that position has my admiration because it is

23 a tough job to get there and a Councilman is

24 a tough job.

25 A. Well, really our Mayors are not like a lot.


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1 There's some of them that do a little

2 politicking to get where they were. If that

3 was any indication in my case I wouldn't have

4 done it because I don't do that. I'm just

5 sorry, I don't. That's not my personality.

6 But I had a young engineer with MoDot ask me

7 one time we were at a Life Choices banquet

8 and he was impressed to be with the former

9 Mayor, but that doesn't really mean anything

10 to me other than he asked me, he said, what

11 was your most favorite thing about being

12 Mayor, and I kind of blew him away when I

13 said going to the schools and reading books

14 to the kids and being involved in their lives

15 because it meant something to them for the

16 Mayor to come to their school.

17 Q. Sure does, yes.

18 A. And that's what my whole life I've been

19 involved in. I've been blessed by the people

20 and I just want to try to help people.

21 Q. Thank you for your time.

22 A. Nice to meet you.

23 Q. My pleasure, sir. I really do appreciate you

24 coming in here.

25


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1 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

2

3

4


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 7th

day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Shaw, Gary | Vol (Investigation)

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