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HB:

TB:

HB:

I w o u ld agree wi t h tha t . I ’ll tel l you s o m e t h i n g , I p e r s o n a l l y

fel t m y s e l f to be ve r y m u c h a f e mi n i s t and ve r y adv an c ed . And

w he n I l ook at t he k ind o f l i t e r a t u r e t ha t we p r o d u c e d f rom

tha t p e r i o d , f rom the F e de r a t i o n , we were a l way s a p p ea l i n g as

m o t h e r s , as d au gh te r s , as s i s t e r s . It was t he k ind o f l an gu ag e

and a t t i t ud e s o f tha t t ime.

W h y was t ha t ?

I ’ll tel l you why it was . F i r s t b e c a u s e the r e w a s n ’t a f e e l i ng o f

f e m i n i s m a m on g w o m e n pe r se as such . And the c u l t u re o f

w o m e n g e ne r a l l y , the d i f f e r en c e tha t b l a ck w o m e n fel t t owar ds

me n and we were on l y a f t e r all a few w h i t e w o m e n who were

o r g a n i s i n g thi s t h ing . The s ec on d r e aso n wh i c h I r ea l l y feel

t ha t th i s is the m a i n t h i ng is t ha t we a lw ay s had to keep the

q u e s t i o n o f n a t i ona l l i b e ra t i o n to the fore. The w o m e n ’s

q u e s t i o n to e v e r y b o d y e l se in the A N C and so on was a

s ide l ine . T h e r e is l i t e r a t u r e ab o u t the w o m e n in the 19th

c en tu r y in A m e r i c a who we re f i g h t i ng a ga in s t s l av e r y and I ’ve

got a b o o k wh e re t he re is a l e t t e r to one o f t he se w ome n

say i ng ,

"Dea r s i s t e r we k n ow tha t w o m e n ’s r i gh t s are i mp o r t an t

in t he Sou th bu t no w our m a i n i n t e re s t is to end s l ave ry ,

p l e as e put a s i de the t h i ngs t ha t you wan t . "

And a l t ho u g h we fe l t ve r y k e e n l y abou t the need for w o m e n to

l i b e r a t e t h e m s e l v e s in so m a n y pe e l s and so m a n y ways , at the

same t i me we c o u l d n ’t go f u r t he r than the ANC, the a t t i t ude o f

HILDA

46

& RUSTY BERNSTEIN

the A N C g e ne r a l l y t o w a rd s the q ue s t i on o f w o m e n ’s r i gh t s . I

t h i nk tha t J u l i e ’s c r i t i c i s ms are qu i t e a fa i r one . I m i g h t not

ag ree wi t h e v e r y th i n g she says .

TB: So i f the n a t i o n a l i s t caus e h a d n ’t b een put to the fore all the

t ime , w ou ld w o m e n h av e d one t h i n gs d i f f e r en t l y?

HB: Up to a po in t . I t h ink tha t g e ne r a l l y the sor t o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g

o f wha t w o m e n need and w ha t t hey wan t and w ha t t he y are

f i g h t in g for w a s n ’t g re a t l y d e v e l o p e d . Al l we wa n te d was equal

r igh t s for w o m e n and to see w o m e n g e t t i n g equal j o b s and all

t hose t h i ngs . It w a s n ’t the k i nd o f mi l i t an t f e m i n i s m tha t grew

up in A m e r i c a and Br i t a i n , I t h ink , in the 1960s . The gener a l

o b j e c t i v e s , I s u p po se , we re the same bu t al l the k i nds o f

t h i ngs , for i n s t a nce , use o f l a n gu ag e s , t h i ngs l ike tha t . T h e r e is

a ve r y g o o d b o o k by J ac k i e Kok ca l l ed "M a id s and M a d a m s " -I

don ' t k n o w i f y ou r ead it - and some o f the w o m e n i n t e r v i e we d

the re , an A f r i c a n w o m e n sa id - I r e m e m b e r one p a r t i c u l a r l y

sa id , "I am s t ro n g e r than he is bu t I d o n ’t let h im k n ow it

b e c a u s e I d o n ’t wa n t to spoi l his p r i de or s o m e t h i n g l ike tha t . "

So the re was t ha t d i f f e r enc e . And the A N C and t he se were

b l a c k me n and a lot o f t he m wer e m i s o g y n i s t s j u s t l ike

e v e r y b o d y el se . The one p e r s o n in the A NC who was

s y m p a t h e t i c to w o m e n and the w o m e n ’s o r g a n i s a t i o n was

W a l t e r S i su lu . He had a b e t t e r s y m p a t h y and u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f

wha t it was al l about . I t h ink the o the r s t h o u g h t j u s t l i ke t hese

p e op l e d u r i n g the 19 th c en tu r y in A m e r i c a t ha t th i s is a s i de l ine

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

and for C hr i s t sake l eave it a lone , w e ’ll deal wi t h it la ter .

A ny way .

TB: o you t h i nk the appea l to w o m e n as mo t h e r s , was tha t a - I

mean , m a y b e it is j u s t s o m e t h i n g tha t a c a d em i cs se i ze or much

la t e r f e mi n i s m. I t h i nk al so Ju l i e c r i t i c i s es the F e d e r a t i o n for

thi s e mp h a s i s on wha t she ca l l s the " m o th e r i s m" not r e a l l y

w o m e n as p e op l e in t he i r own r i gh t but in the s ens e o f as

m o t h e r s , as p e op l e who are g o i ng to b ea r and look a f ter

ch i l d r en . Tha t it is in t ha t c ap a c i t y t ha t t hey d e se rv e equal

r i gh t s and so for th . Do yo u t h i nk tha t is l ike an a ca d e m i c

a r g u m e n t or is it s o m e t h i n g p e op l e we re d e b a t i n g at the t ime?

HB: No t hey w e r e n ’t d e b a t i n g at the t ime . I t h i nk it was a

r e f l e c t i o n o f the gene r a l a t t i t ud e o f t ha t t ime . T h a t ’s wha t I

t h ink it was . And I d o n ’t t h i nk - I t h i nk my own sor t o f

f e m i n i s m only c ame to r e a l i s e wha t it r ea l l y me an t a f t e r I wen t

to E n g l a n d and b e g a n to r ead all the s t u f f t ha t was c o m i n g out

o f A m e r i c a and Br i t a in . No I t h i nk it was a fa i r r e f l e c t i o n o f

our g e ne r a l a t t i t ude . It was not an a c a d em i c q ue s t i on at all .

TB: W h e n did you b o t h l e ave? No, t he r e is a l ong s to ry abou t the

a r re s t s and all o f tha t . I d o n ’t w an t to sk ip all o v e r that

b e c a u s e i t ’s so but I t h i nk yo u m i g h t h a ve wr i t t en abou t it in

o t h e r p l ace s so m a y b e - yo u k n o w, you gave me y o u r overa l l

i m p r e s s i o n s o f the 1950s , le t me ask you abou t the t i me o f

Sh a rp ev i l l e , t h e r e ’s the b a n n i n g o f the o rg a n i s t i o n , t h e r e ’s the

f o r ma t i o n o f MK - t h o s e year s . Y o u ’d c ome out o f wha t you

47

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

w o u l d cal l no w the h i gh o f the 1950s and no w th i ngs are

g r a d u a l l y b e i n g shut d o wn a r o u n d you. Wh at did t ha t p a r t i c u l a r

t ime feel l ike - the ea r ly s ix t i e s?

RB: I t h i nk the s ix t i e s was the t i me we we re c on sc i ou s tha t the

s t a t e was c l a m p i n g d own on us and in f ac t we were r e t r e a t i ng .

We were no l o n g e r in the sor t o f p o s i t i o n o f adv an c i n g . We

we re b e g i n n i n g to r e t r ea t . And t hey s ta r t ed wi t h t he S ta te o f

E m e r g e n c y wh e n t h o u s a n d s o f p e op le we r e l ocked up and

p r a c t i ca l l y al l the ac t i v i s t s in the w ho l e M o v e m e n t we r e in

p r i son . We r e a l i s e d t hen thi s was s o m e t h i n g new, we had n e ve r

b e en in th i s p o s i t i o n w he r e t he y cou l d j u s t wh ip you all o f f for

no r eason . I mean , t hey d i d n ’t need to ca t ch y ou c o m m i t t i n g an

o f f enc e , t hey j u s t a r r e s t ed you. T h e n the r e was the r e a l i s a t i o n

t ha t t h in gs we re c h a n g i n g and I t h i n k tha t was the pe r i o d whe n

p e op l e b e g a n to t a lk abou t h a v i n g to f ind new ways o f de a l i ng

wi t h t he G o v e r n m e n t ’s threa t . An d thi s was w he n the t a lk o f

a rme d r e s i s t a nc e and U m k h o n t o and so on b e g a n to deve l op .

But I t h i nk it was at al l t i me s the sor t o f f e e l i n g t ha t we are

not any l o n g e r in c o m m a n d o f the s i t u a t i o n - t he y are and we

are no w r e s p o n d i n g to t he i r a t t a ck r a th e r t han the o the r way

a r ound . And , o f cour se , it got w o r s e as t i me we nt on b e c a us e

a f t e r the E m e r g e n c y was over , t hey s t a r t ed b a n n i n g p e op l e

mor e , the bans b e c a m e mo r e and m o r e o ne r o u s and w i d e s p r e a d

and p e op l e , all sor t s o f p e op l e we re h o u s e - a r r e s t e d 24 h ou rs a

day. Si su l a , Mb ek i , Ko t a ne , e v e r y b o d y was g i ve n 24 hou r s a

48

HILDA

49

& RUSTY BERNSTEIN

day h ou s e a r r e s t wh i c h v i r t ua l l y m a d e t hem use l e s s . Th e y were

u na b l e to o pe ra t e in the M o v e m e n t and so on so tha t was

a n o th e r p l an wh ic h s ee me d to c l ose t hem down. An d then they

i n t r o d u c e d th i s 90 - d ay D e t e n t i o n Law and they s t a r t ed

t o r t u r i n g p e o p l e and that was a n o t h e r th ing . So I t h i nk we had

t h r o u g h o u t the 1960s the f e e l i n g tha t the t ide had tu r ned

a ga i n s t us and - [ i n t e r r up t i on ]

HB: F ee l i ng in d a n ge r the wh o l e t ime. P a r t i c u l a r l y I t h i nk the 1960

E m e r g e n c y b e c a us e we were b o t h d e t a i ned .

Yo u see by tha t t ime I had four c h i l d r e n and whe n I was

a r r e s t ed my y o u n g e s t ch i ld was on l y three . So t ha t was a very

p a i n f u l t i me and p e op le were l e a v i n g and so on. In a way , I

t h ink , I fe l t I w ou ld l ike to l e av e the c o un t r y and t ake the

ch i l d r e n to sa f e t y bu t R u s t y was a d a m a n t t ha t he was not go i ng

to be d r i ve n out o f thi s c ou n t r y and so on. So we d i d n ’t

a c t u a l ly t h i nk s e r i ou s ly abou t l e av i n g un t i l a f t e r the R i vo n i a

Tr ia l s . A f t e r the R i v o n i a Tr ia l t he y c ame to a r r e s t me and I

w en t into h i d i n g and by tha t t i me we b o t h fel t t ha t not only

was our s i t u a t i o n i m p o s s i b l e bu t we wer e ac t ua l l y a d an g e r to

o t he r peo p l e . A n y b o d y who c ame to our h o u s e or c ame ne a r us

was a m a r k e d p e r s on . It w a s n ’t l i ke it had been wh e n you were

able to go to s ec re t m e e t i n g s , t r y i n g to m a k e sure you w e r e n ’t

f o l l o we d or me e t in p l a ce s t ha t y ou fe l t safe and tha t sor t o f

t h ing . It was deep u n d e r g r o u n d wo r k and we we re a danger .

HILDA

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& RUSTY BERNSTEIN

W h e n t h e y c ame for my book , The Wo r l d tha t was Ours -

[ i naud i b l e ] .

RB: But you see apar t f rom the way i n d i v i d u a l s m i g h t have fel t ,

wh a t was h a p p e n i n g was tha t b e c a u s e o f t he se i nc r eased

r e s t r i c t i o n s , the use o f 24 hour s a day h o u s e a r res t and th ings

l ike tha t , p e op l e were l e av i n g the c o un t r y wi th a r eason . You

t ake a chap l ike Kotane . H e ’s got a h o u s e in A l e x an d r a . You

c a n ’t r ea l l y go out there . Who k n o w s who is n e i g h bo u r s are

k e ep i n g an eye on h im. He d a r e n ’t m o v e ou t o f t he hous e and

n o b o d y da re go into the h ous e to t a lk to h im b e c a u s e he was

p r o h i b i t e d f rom t a lk in g to p e op l e so he is t o t a l l y u se l e s s . He is

a p r i s o n e r v i r t u a l l y o f the s t a t e in his own h ome . So the re is no

p o i n t in h i m s t ay i ng . And p e o p l e sa id , "go and do s ome t h i ng

us e f u l in Dar es Sa l aam. " So th i s was h a p p e n i n g . And at the

s ame t i me the r e was this sor t o f i n c r e as e d p r e s su r e on us, the

o r g a n i s e d s t ru c tu r e s o f the M o v e m e n t were b e g i n n i n g to

d i s so l v e b e c a u s e p e op le we r e e i t he r b e in g h e ld in p r i s on for 90

days , t o r t u r e d and m a y b e he ld a n o t h e r 90 days or they were

l e av i n g the coun t r y . So the o r g a n i s a t i o n a l s t r u c tu r e s were

b e g i n n i n g to d i s so l ve at the same t i me wh i c h al so a dded to the

f ee l i ng t ha t we were in d i re s t r a ig h t s , you k no w , or we were

a p p r o a c h i n g d i re s t ra i t s . And I t h i nk e v e r y b o d y m u s t have fel t

th i s at t ha t t i me even wi t h the f o r m i n g o f U m k h o n t o which

l oo k e d l ike a f o r wa r d d e f i a n t ge s t u r e . But in fact it was a

g e s tu r e t a ken in a t i me when we r e a l i s e d yo u r back was aga ins t

51

the wal l and i f you d i d n ’t f igh t b ack n o w yo u were f i n i shed .

So it w a s n ’t t a ke n f rom a p o s i t i o n o f s t r e ng th , bu t f rom a

p o s i t i o n o f w e a k n e ss .

TB: Can you tel l m e abou t the d ec i s i on to a c t u a l l y l eave? How did

you go ab ou t i t?

HB: Wh i l e Ru s t y was in j a i l , I ’d been i n v o l v e d wi t h a co up l e o f

pe op l e one o f w h o m was Y u s u f C a c h a l i a who is no w dead in

g e t t i n g p e o p l e ove r the borde r . We wer e a r r a n g i n g for peop le

to go over .

TB: To B o t s w a n a ?

HB: Yes , m o s t l y to B o t sw a na , yes . And w h e n t hey c ame to ar res t

me, I e sc a p e d f rom the ho us e and w e n t in to h i d i ng - y o u ’ll

p r o b a b l y f i nd it in the book . And t hen we c o m m u n i c a t e d wi th

each o the r t h r o u g h va r i ou s peop l e . My d au g h t e r , Toni , was

u n d e r g o i n g n u r s e r y schoo l t r a in in g and a t e a c h e r t he re wou l d

g ive h e r a n o t e t ha t s o m e o n e had p a s s e d on f r om me or f rom

Rus t y and she w ou l d t ake the note . It was t h r o u g h a cha in o f

p e op l e t ha t we a r r a n g e d t hese t h i ngs and we j u s t fe l t t ha t we

now had no f u t u r e and not on l y no f u tu r e , bu t we had no way

o f d o in g a ny t h i ng . And , o f cour se , the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f the

ch i l d re n as wel l .

TB: So it w a s n ’t good e no u g h to j u s t l i ve , you had to be do ing

s o m e t h i n g ?

RB: Wel l , we c o u l d n ’t you see. Apa r t f rom the fact t ha t the po l i ce

had c ome to the h o u s e l o o k i n g for H i ld a so we k ne w i f she

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

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& RUSTY BERNSTEIN

came b a c k and t r i ed to s t ar t l i v ing , t h e y ’d c ome b ack again .

And i f she d i d n ’t c ome back to the h ous e , I was a l r eady hous e-

a r r e s t ed and out on ba i l on a cha r ge u n d e r t he S u p p r e s s i o n o f

C o m m u n i s m Act . I f she d i d n ’t c ome b ack to the h ous e , the

c han ce s were 50 /50 that t h e y ’d a r res t me and ho ld me u nd e r

9 0 - d a y d e t e n t i o n to f ind out wh e re she was . So, I m e an , we

were f i n i shed . T h e r e was j u s t no f u tu r e for us r ea l ly . We wou l d

e i t he r have b o t h f i n i sh e d up in j a i l or we had to l eave . The r e

was no op t i o n o f l e a d i n g an o r d i n a ry l i fe t he r ea f t e r .

TG: Thi s is the s ec o nd t ape , f i r s t s ide.

The B e r n s t e i n s h a v e g o t t e n to 1963.

HB: 1964 ac t ua l l y . R u s t y is ou t o f j a i l .

TB: And y o u ’ve d e c i d e d thi s is an u n t e n a b l e s i t ua t i on . You c a n ’t

l ive in y o u r h o us e , yo u c a n ’t m o v e out o f y o u r house . I ’m sure

y o u r c h i l d re n m u s t h av e f o u n d thi s an i n c r e d i b l y d i f f i cu l t

pe r i od wi t h t he i r m o t h e r j u s t d i s a p p e a r i n g in to t h in air. I c a n ’t

r e m e m b e r f r om the b o ok i f you had to j u m p the g a r den f ence or

wha t you had to do bu t it m u s t have b een t e r r i b l e for them.

RB: I t h i nk by tha t t i me t hey had had so m a n y o f t hese sor t o f

t r a u m a t i c e x p e r i e n c e s o f p o l i c e r a i d i n g and o f my be i ng

a r r e s t ed and so on tha t in one way or a n o t h e r they were , sor t

of, h a r d e ne d to it.

HB: Not h a rd e n e d , Rus t y . It had a t e r r i b l e e f f ec t on them.

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

RB: I mean , it d i d n ’t c o m e to t hem out o f the b lue . T h e y ’d a l r eady

had so m a n y o f t h e s e e x pe r i e nc e s t ha t th i s was j u s t -

[ i n t e r r up t i on ] .

HB: No but st i l l p e o p l e l ike Ke i th c o u l d n ’t u n d e r s t a n d w hy and

w ha t was g o i ng on.

RB: No. He c o u l d n ’t u n d e r s t a n d but I me an it w a s n ’t the f i r s t t ime

it had h a p p e n e d - p o l i c e m e n c o m in g in the h o u s e and t ak i ng

our b oo k s out and so on.

TB: Can I ask you. I ’ve a lw ay s w on d e r e d wha t as you have a sense

tha t t h i ngs are g e t t i n g wors e , wha t do you say to y ou n g

ch i l d re n to he lp t h e m u n d e r s t a n d tha t t h i ng s are g o i ng to

h ap p e n tha t you as t he i r pa ren t s c a n ’t con t ro l .

RB: I d o n ’t k n o w i f we h a v e an a n sw er to t ha t one.

HB: I d o n ’t k no w i f we h a v e an answer . I do r e m e m b e r I was go ing

out one n igh t and I sa id good n i gh t to my d a u g h t e r Fr anc i s

who was abou t s even , s o m e t h i n g l ike tha t . And she said,

" wher e are you g o i ng ? " And I said, "I 'm g o i ng to see a man

abou t a dog. " W h i c h was the way I e x p l a i n e d to he r w he n I

d i d n ’t wan t he r to kno w, b e c a u s e i f she was a sked by p e op l e it

m i g h t be d a n ge r ou s . And she l oo ke d at me and said, " d o n ’t

g ive me tha t a n swe r . " And then she sa id , "do you wan t me to

do the same t h i n g s t ha t you do whe n I g row up?" And at that

m o m e n t my hea r t s ank to the b o t t o m o f my shoes . And I said,

"wel l , I d o n ’t k n o w , w e ’ll see . " And I sa id " ma ybe . " And she

said, " then ho w can I k n o w wha t to do i f yo u d o n ’t tel l me

53

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

wh er e you are g o in g and wha t y o u ’re d o i ng ?" But it was a

d i l e m m a b e c a u s e c h i l d r e n u n w i t t i n g l y can say, "oh, my daddy

is not home " wh e n h e ’s s u pp o se d to be h o m e or s o m e t h i n g l ike

tha t i f s o m e o n e p ho n e s or s om e t h i ng . I d o n ’t t h i nk we h a nd l ed

it ve ry we l l , to tel l y ou the t ru th .

TB: I am c e r t a i n l y not a sk i ng th i s in the c r i t i ca l s ens e but , I mean ,

i f you l ook b a c k in h i s t o r y , t he r e s eems to h a ve been this

spec ia l t i me w he n p e o p l e l ike y o u r s e l v e s w e r e so i n v o l v e d in

p o l i t i c a l work . You had a f a m i l y l i fe t ha t I ’m sure you

l a v i sh ed as m u c h a t t e n t i o n as you cou ld on, and k e ep i n g all o f

thi s g o i ng at the s ame t ime . The n the n a t i o n a l p o l i t i c a l s tory

b e g i ns to c ome in to t hose t h i ngs ever y m i n u t e and I ’m a

m o t h e r and h av e two c h i l d r e n and I t h i nk a lot abou t how do

you m a n a g e t h o s e ve ry , ve r y - ho w does one m a n a g e those

very , ve r y - [ i n t e r r up t i o n ]

HB: I d o n ’t t h i nk we m a n a g e d it v e r y we l l . I t h i nk tha t all the

c h i l d r en o f t he p o l i t i c a l a c t i v i s t s had a ha r d t ime . An d w he n I

was d o i ng the "The R i f t " t he r e we re a n u m b e r o f ch i l d r e n I

i n t e r v i e w e d who d i d n ’t in the end get in to the book , bu t they

all e x p r e s s e d the s ame f e e l i n g s t o w a rd s t he i r pa ren t s . They

e xp r e s s e d r e s e n t m e n t and the l ack o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g as to why

the i r p a r en t s put t he i r c ause b e f o r e t he i r f a mi l y , and at the

same t i me love and a d m i r a t i o n for t he i r pa ren t s .

So it was a d i c h o t o m y for t hem too. A d i v i s i ve th ing . A nd re w

Kasr i l sa id, "I k ne w my dad was on the r i gh t s ide bu t I d i d n ’t

54

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

kn ow wh y he put hi s c au s e b e f o r e his f ami l y . " And Glor i a

[ na me - un c l ea r ] d a u g h t e r o f a t r ade u n i o n i s t e x p r e s s e d the same

th ing . "I t h o u g h t my dad d i d n ’t love me. I t h o u g h t he loved his

cause m o r e than he l oved hi s f ami l y . " Th e y al l r e s en t ed

p l a y in g s ec on d p l ace . I s u p po se , I m e a n t hey al l had t r aumas

and th i ngs bu t i f you t h i nk abou t the w ay p e o p l e l ive and

p eo p l e who are not p o l i t i c a l l y i n vo lv e d and wha t t he i r ch i l d ren

go t h r o u gh and e v e r y t h i ng , I d o n ’t k now. I d o n ’t know.

A n y w a y t he y ' r e g rea t c h i l d r en , t h e y ' r e b e a u t i f u l , good , l ov ing ,

s u p p o r t i v e c h i l d r e n , and we are ve ry p r o u d o f t hem.

TB: I ’m sure you are. You had the b e ne f i t o f d i f f i c u l t i e s bu t t h a t ’s

not a bad th ing . W ha t we r e the d a r k es t days o f the s t r ugg l e for

you, the da rk es t days?

RB: I s u pp o s e for me, i m m e d i a t e l y a f t e r t he R i v o n i a a r res t s

b e c a u s e t hen I k n e w tha t , a l t ho u gh I had the f e e l i n g tha t the

M o v e m e n t was b e i ng d r i ve n b a c k w a r d s and was on the

d e f e ns iv e and was f i gh t i ng for its l i fe , I t h i nk a f t e r the R i von i a

a r re s t s thi s was r ea l l y t he f i n i sh o f it. At l eas t t ha t p hase o f

h i s t o ry wh e re our M o v e m e n t and o r g a n i s a t i o n was f i n i shed . It

was s mas he d . I t h i nk t ha t was p r o b a b l y the d a r k es t days for

me. I c a n ’t t h i nk o f a p e r i o d tha t was qu i t e as w i t h o u t h ope or

- wel l , yes h op e I s u pp os e , qu i t e as b l e ak as t ha t pe r i od .

HB: Wel l , t h a t ’s the same for me , it was t he R i v o n i a ar res t . I got

sor t o f p e r i od s in my l i fe wh i c h

55

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

I t h i nk were m o s t t r a u ma t i c , and that was the R i v o n i a a r res t s ,

and r e a l i s i n g wha t was g o i ng to h appen . The l a wy e r s said,

" l ook t hey ' r e g o i ng to ask for the dea t h s e n t e n c e for these

me n . " And h a n d l i n g tha t , s t i l l b e i n g i n v o l v e d p o l i t i c a l l y ,

h a v i n g the ch i l d r en , g o i ng up w he n the t r i al s t a r t ed b a c k w a r d s

and f o r wa rd s f rom Pr e t o r i a , f rom the cour t , it was r ea l l y a

p re t t y t ough t ime.

And it was all t he se p eo p le - N e l s o n and W a l t e r and Gov a n and

the w ho l e c rowd o f t hem, Ka th y and e v e r y b o d y , k n o w i n g them.

W ha t we t h o u g h t a f t e r wa r ds t h e y ’ll p r o b a b l y ask for the dea th

s e n t e n c e for some o f the l e ad in g p e o p l e l ike N e l s o n , Wal t e r

and G ova n , and the o t he r s wi l l get l i f e i m p r i s o n m e n t . The re

d i dn ' t s eem to be any h op e for us in the l eas t . We j u s t p re s sed

the l u ck y b u t t o n s o me ho w.

TB: Sor ry , I d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d you - p r e s s e d the l u c ky b u t t o n?

HB: Wel l , I d o n ’t know. Ru s t y was found not g u i l t y at the end o f

the t r i al . W hy j u s t h im? T h e r e was no ev id en c e , j u s t as l i t t l e

e v i d en c e a ga i ns t K a t h r a d a and ag a i ns t A n d r e w Ml an g en i .

RB: No, R a y m o n d Mhl aba .

HB: R a y m o n d Mhl aba . So why , you kno w, p e o p l e say, "why were

you found not gu i l t y?" I d o n ’t know.

TB: Y o u ’ve no idea.

RB: I t ’s l ike d r a w i ng a t i c ke t in the s we e p s t ak e . The j u d g e could

h av e f l i pped a coin and said, you k n ow, " c o m es d own heads

y ou ' r e gui l ty . I f it c omes d own t a i l s y o u ’re not gu i l t y . "

56

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

HB: T h e y a d j o u r n e d the cour t to f ind a m e m b e r o f the Spec ia l

B r a nc h and the re was a b ig r u g b y ma t ch on.

RB: T h a t ’s r igh t . T r an s va a l was p l a y i n g W e s t e r n P r ov i nce .

HB: An d all the Spec i a l B r a n ch we re there . So a n y w a y we we re out

on bai l and whe n t he y c ame to a r r e s t me tha t was the t ime , you

k no w, we d e c i de d tha t we had to p r e pa re to l eave.

RB: T h er e was no p o i n t in s t ay i ng .

HB: Yes , t he re was no p o i n t in s t ay i ng .

RB: But it was r ea l l y a l u c ky c h a n c e t ha t I got ba i l .

HB: Sure . A lu c ky a ch an ce you we r e found no t gu i l t y and a l ucky

c han ce t ha t you got ba i l . So i n t e r e s t i n g and lucky l i fe.

TB: Th i s is 1964. Y o u ’ve s k i pp ed ba i l and you se t t l ed in E ng l and . I

t h i nk y o u ’ve d e sc r ib e d t ha t p e r i o d- [ i n t e r r up t i on ]

HB: Ru s t y d e sc r ib e d it in his b o ok . I d i d n ’t wr i t e abou t tha t , I on ly

wr o t e to t he t i me we left .

TB: M a y b e you can t hen j u s t t e l l me abou t c o m i n g back to Sou th

Af r i ca . N ow you are on a v i s i t bu t a f t e r 1990/1991 w h e n did

you f i r s t c ome back?

HB: In 1992 we got a m n e s t y to r e t u r n b e c a u s e o t h e r w i s e we

c o u l d n ’t r e t u r n w i t h o u t b e i n g a r r e s t ed for l e av i n g the c ou n t ry

i l l e ga l l y , etc. An d we c ame b ack in 1992 for the f i r s t t ime

r ea l l y l ike t o u r i s t s , d i d n ’t we?

RB: Yes .

HB: We h i r ed a car and we nt - [ i n t e r r up t i on ]

TB: Af t e r a lm o s t 30 year s?

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HILDA

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& RUSTY BERNSTEIN

HB: Yes and we t r a ve l l ed a ro un d the coun t ry .

RB: Had a l ook at the c ou n t r y aga in .

HB: We had j u s t f o rg o t t en ho w b ea u t i fu l it was . We were t r a ns f ix e d

by it. And then we came in 1994 for the e l ec t i ons . Rus t y

w o r k e d for the A NC b e f o r e the e l ec t i on s and I s u pp o s e d w e ’ve

b een b ack ever y co u p l e o f yea r s , m o r e or l ess .

RB: Mor e or l ess , yes.

HB: My e l des t d a u g h t e r is he re in the Ca pe at t he p r e s en t t ime . She

m a k es d o c u m e n t a r y f i l ms and she is m a k i n g a f i lm for BBC

W o r l d ab ou t the o r g a n i s a t i o n in Sou t h Af r i ca . An d she c omes

b a ck the mos t f r eq u e n t l y . The o t he r s - two o f t hem came

d u r i n g the e l ec t i ons bu t t h e y ' r e all m a r r i e d and h av e c h i l d r en

and al l t he res t o f it.

TB: An d the f ami l y now r e a l l y has i t s roo t s f i r ml y in Br i t a in .

RB: Wel l , al l o f t he i r r oo t s are in Br i t a in .

HB: Ex c e p t Toni . My o l de s t d a u g h t e r was a sked not l ong ago, "do

you feel y o u r s e l f to be Br i t i sh or Sou th A f r i ca n?" An d she

said, "when I ’m in E n g l an d I feel Sou t h A f r i c a n and w he n I ’m

in S o u t h Af r i ca I feel I ’m Br i t i sh . " But she was 21 w h e n we

lef t and she was m a r r i e d to h e r p r e s en t h us b an d .

RB: The o t he r s were m u c h y o u n g e r and i f t hey r e m e m b e r a n y t h i ng

ab o u t Sou t h Af r i ca , t hey d o n ’t r ea l l y feel a t t a ch e d to the

c o u n t r y in any way. T h e y d o n ’t t h i nk o f t h e m s e l v e s as Sou th

A f r i ca ns .

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

HB: Wel l , Ke i t h my y o u n g e s t son who r e m e m b e r s l eas t , h e ’s a

p h o t o g r a p h e r and he c ame b ack in ’94 for the e l ec t i on s to go

a r o u n d wi t h M an d e l a , f o l l o w i n g and t a k in g p i c tu re s . An d at

the end o f t ha t t i me he said, " I ’m g l ad I spen t a c oup l e o f

m o n t h s in So u t h Af r i c a b e c a u s e no w I k n o w I d o n ’t w a n t to

l ive in th i s coun t ry . "

TB: I f y ou cou l d r e wr i t e Sou t h A f r i c a ’s h i s t o r y , wha t w o u ld you

i n c l ud e ?

HB: I d o n ’t t h i nk I wou l d dare to do such a t h ing .

TB: Sure you wou l d .

RB: W h e n yo u say to r e wr i t e Sou t h A f r i c a ’s h i s t o r y , you m e a n to

r e f a s h i o n h i s t o r y or j u s t to wr i t e it d i f f e r e n t l y f rom the way

i t ’s b een wr i t t en .

TB: To r e f a s h i o n it. T h a t ’s a b e t t e r wo r d to use in such a ques t i on .

HB: Yes , I ’d go r i gh t b ack to c o l on i a l t i mes and t ake the Br i t i sh

out and t he i r e x p l o i t a t i o n o f the m i n e s and the p e op l e he re and

so. I d o n ’t k no w, ho w can you do tha t ?

TB: No, I d i d n ’t m e a n to c han g e even t s . I m e a n t the p e r s p e c t i v e on

h i s t o r i c a l wr i t i ng . I f you we r e g o i ng to r e w r i t e it. I ’m s or ry I

m i s u n d e r s t o o d you. Wh a t p e r s p e c t i v e w o u ld you use?

HB: The w o m a n ’s p e r s p ec t iv e .

TB: And you?

RB: I w o u ld use the p e r s p e c t i v e o f - f rom the p re - Sou t h Af r i ca n

h i s t o r y f rom the p o i n t o f v i ew o f m a s s m o b i l i s a t i o n o f p eop l e

as b e i n g the w ay in wh i c h t r a n s f o r m a t i o n m i g h t have h a pp en e d

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HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

or co u l d h av e h a pp e n e d or sh ou ld h a ve h a pp en e d . B ec au s e all

t he s u cc e s s e s o f our p o l i t i c a l m o v e m e n t , in my v i ew, i n c lu d i ng

t he new C o ns t i t u t i o n and the i n t r o d u c t i o n o f a n o n - a p a r t h e i d

g o v e r n m e n t and so on, all o f th i s in the l ong run c omes down

to the fac t t ha t the wh o l e M o v e m e n t was c o n c e n t r a t e d for m a ny

yea r s on the m o b i l i s i n g o f p e o p l e en m a s s e to m a k e the i r

i n f l u e n c e fel t . No t on g e t t i ng p e o p l e into o f f i ce to a d m i n i s t e r a

new so c i e t y bu t to c rea t e a new s oc i e t y f rom the b o t t o m. I

w o u ld l i ke to r e w r i t e Sou t h Af r i ca ' s h i s to ry I 'd l ike to r ewr i t e

w ha t w o u ld have h a p p e n e d in the new r e g i m e b e t w e e n 1990

and 2001 i f t ha t p e r s p e c t i v e had b een m a in t a i n e d . I f the re

h a d n ’t b een an a t t e n t i o n to p r o d u c e a new s oc i e t y by

a d m i n i s t r a t i v e m e n t i o n - [ unc l e a r ] . I f the wh o l e m o v e m e n t had

s t uck to i t ’s o r i g i na l v i e w p o i n t wh i c h was tha t c han g e c omes

t h r o u g h m a ss m o b i l i s a t i o n . I b e l i e v e [ inaud i b l e ] Sou t h Af r i ca

for the good.

HB: I j u s t t h i nk w o m e n have b een w r i t t e n out o f h i s t o r y gene r a l l y .

So t h a t ’s w ha t I w o u ld do. Wr i t e it f r om the w o m a n ’s

p e r s p ec t i v e .

TB: S ee i ng it t h r o u gh those eyes .

HB: Yes . And the par t t ha t t hey p l a y ed tha t p e o p l e d o n ’t k n o w

about .

TB: I did an i n t e r v i e w wi th Mr W i l t o n M k w a y i and at the end o f

h i s i n t e r v i e w he m a d e a p o i n t s i m i l a r to the one you are

m a k i n g but f r om a s l i gh t l y d i f f e r e n t angle . He said in his

62

HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

e x p e r i e n c e - I ’m p a r a p h r a s i n g - it was so i m p o r t a n t for a

l e ad e r to be wi th peop l e . Th a t you l ive wi t h t hem, you ta lk

wi t h t he m, you i n te ra c t wi t h t hem on a da i l y ba s i s and very

c o n s t a n t l y and, i f I 'm r e m e m b e r i n g c o r r e c t ly , he was i m p l y i n g

tha t was s o m e t h i n g t ha t the M o v e m e n t had lost . He was

r e m e m b e r i n g his days in N e w B r i g h t o n wh e re you we nt to t a lk

to p eo p l e , you hea r d w ha t t hey were s ay i ng , you know. There

was a ve r y k i nd o f p e r s o n a l , k i nd of, da i l y i n t e r a c t i o n there .

And tha t j u s t r e m i n d e d me w he n you were s p e a k i n g o f mass

m o b i l i s a t i o n .

RB: Yes , I ’ve h ea r d h im say tha t sor t o f t h i ng too. I t h i nk h e ’s got

t ha t sor t o f v i ew bu t t h i ng s s o m e w h e r e a l ong the l ine b e gan to

change . Th i s a t t i t ude t o w a rd s m a ss [unc l ea r ] a m o n g s t the

p e o p l e d o w n on the g r a s s r o o t s has c ha ng e d , has got away f rom

them. T h a t ’s one o f the r e a so n s wh y h e ’s no t p l a y i n g the sor t

o f ro l e t ha t he r ea l l y is qu i t e c ap a b l e o f p l a y i n g j u d g i n g by his

pas t [ i n aud i b l e ] .

HB: But h e ’s g e t t i n g old l ike us.

RB: But so are a lot o f o t he r p eo p l e g e t t i ng old b u t s ince he came

out o f R o b b e n I s l and has r ea l l y not p l a y ed the ro l e tha t he has

the a b i l i t y to p lay. Pi ty.

TB: A sor t o f a p h i l o s o p h i c a l d i f f e r en ce .

RB: I t h i nk so. I t h i nk i t ' s a shi f t . I t h i nk wha t h a p p e n e d the re was

a sh i f t o f e m ph as i s in the M o v e m e n t f rom l o o k i n g at the mass

m o b i l i s a t i o n o f p eo p l e was a way to c h an g e Sou th Af r i ca into

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HILDA & RUSTY BERNSTEIN

an idea tha t you can c ha ng e s oc i e t y f rom the t op i f yo u get into

p o s i t i o n s o f p o w e r and the new a d m i n i s t r a t i o n . And I t h ink it

was a p h i l o s o p h i c a l shi f t , i f you l ike or d i f f e r en ce . I d o n ’t

k now. I t h i nk i ts u n f o r t u n a t e bu t t he re it is. I mean , t h a t ’s why

I a sked you , you c a n ’t r e m a k e h i s to r y , you can r e - i m a g i n e how

it m i g h t h av e b een bu t you c a n ’t r e ma k e it. Yo u c a n ’t go back

and r e c a p t u r e it.

TB: My l as t q u e s t i o n w o u ld be is t he r e a n y t h i n g tha t you feel I

s hou l d h av e a sked you t ha t m a y b e I s k i pp ed o v e r or d i d n ’t

a sk? S o m e t h i n g t ha t c ame to mi n d wh i l e we we r e t a lk i ng about

s o m e t h i n g else.

RB: N o t h i n g I can t h i nk o f my s e l f . I d o n ’t know. You seem to have

c ov er ed - I m e a n b e t w e e n wha t you have a sked and wha t we

h a ve wr i t t en o u r s e l v es in our va r i ous b o o k s , y o u ’ve got

p r a c t i ca l l y all our h i s t o r y and e x p e r i e n c e s and v i e ws about

ev e r y t h i ng .

HB: N o w you m u s t go and s p ea k to t he c h i l d re n o f all the po l i t i ca l

a c t i v i s t s and h e a r wha t t hey have to say.

TB: T h a t ’s a n o t he r p ro j ec t . But it w ou l d be a ve r y f a s c i n a t in g one.

HB: Yes , it wou l d . F r om a d i f f e r e n t angle .

TB: I h a v e n ’t r ead all o f "The R i f t ." I ’ve read pa r t s . You read thi s

p e r s o n and then t ha t p e r s o n and sk ip a round . I l i ke it for tha t

r e a s on . But t h a t ’s one o f t he m o s t i n t e r e s t i n g an g l e s b e ca u s e

f a mi l i e s are o f t en f o r g o t t en wh e n p eop l e s t a r t s pe a k i n g about

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& RUSTY BERNSTEIN

s t r ug g le and p o l i t i c a l and m o b i l i s a t i o n . T h o s e are ve ry

d i f f i cu l t cho i ce s and the i r r e s u l t s are o f t en - [ i n t e r r up t i on ]

RB: And the h i s to r y t ends to focus on i m p o r t an t peo p l e , you know.

P e op l e in h igh p o s i t i o n s and the r e are a s t ack o f p eo p l e who

p a r t i c i p a t e d and took pa r t w h o s e s to r i e s j u s t go t los t .

HB: T h a t ’s one o f the r ea so ns I w a n t e d to wr i t e "The R i f t " and

w he n Sou th Af r i ca ns who we r e in the M o v e m e n t s t ar t r ea d i ng

t hey look up the n am e s t hey k no w , but i t ’s the n a me s they

d o n ’t k n ow who have the i n t e r e s t i n g s tor ies .

TB: Wel l , t hank you ve ry muc h . I t h i nk w e ’ll end there .

END OF I NTERVIEW

Collection Number: A3299 Collection Name: Hilda and Rusty BERNSTEIN Papers, 1931-2006

PUBLISHER: Publisher: Historical Papers Research Archive Collection Funder: Bernstein family Location: Johannesburg

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This document is part of the Hilda and Rusty Bernstein Papers, held at the Historical Papers Research Archive, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa.