Press Coverage of Hearings on Proposed Bill

7/28/2019 Press Coverage of Hearings on Proposed Bill

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Page 1 of 67 2013 Factiva, Inc. All rights reserved.

Buttimer: 'Big ask' to have abortion legislation enacted before recess ....................................................................3

Floodgates will not open as abortion bill is far too 'restrictive'.................................................................................. 4

In an all-too familiar battle, the Voice of Reason takes middle ground again...........................................................6

Suicidal women 'can get early delivery' at late stage ...............................................................................................7

Inching towards Oireachtas approval ....................................................................................................................... 8

Legislation for killing of babies, says lawyer...........................................................................................................10

Punitive measures go significantly beyond current law. .......................................................................................12

Hearings show proposals need to be redrafted. Central difficulty relates to suicide clause and absence ofgestational limits. .................................................................................................................................................... 13

Abortion law incompatible with human rights values, says Binchy......................................................................... 15

Fianna Fil finance spokesman calls on party leader to allow free vote. ............................................................... 16

Government will examine penalties for illegal terminations, says White. Bill includes provision for unlimited fineand up to 14 years.................................................................................................................................................. 17

Leading barrister says government will need to rethink proposed abortion laws................................................... 19

We're not gatekeepers; Politicians hear from psychiatrists on abortion ................................................................. 20

With all this talk about choice, you'd forget there are many who don't have any ................................................... 22

Medic says abortion bill will send wrong message to suicidal................................................................................23

Committee to hear from junior health minister on proposed abortion laws ............................................................ 25

Abortion is no treatment for suicidal tendencies ...................................................................................................26

Abortion Bill risks normalising suicide, says psychiatrist. Prof Kevin Malone warns of sending wrong signal tovulnerable young men. ...........................................................................................................................................27

Still no clear answers as debate goes on. There was little agreement among witnesses...................................... 28

Real risk of suicide during pregnancy................................................................................................................... 29

Psychiatrists are doctors, not judges. Legislation could increase risk of suicide in young males, UCD professorsays. ....................................................................................................................................................................... 30

Doctors differ, patients fly and majority in Leinster House give abortion Bill wide berth. Oireachtas hearingsmatter little to the women leaving Ireland for abortion . ..........................................................................................31

TDs who vote for abortion 'cannot seek Communion' ............................................................................................33

Martin wades into abortion debate ......................................................................................................................... 35

Majority of FF believed to back Bill on abortion . Some Senators privately saying they will defy whip if partysupports Bill. ........................................................................................................................................................... 36

Sherlock warns Catholic Church about making incendiary remarks..................................................................... 37

Archbishop in warning to TDs over abortion ..........................................................................................................38

Support for suicide abortion down: Poll; FF leads over FG, no comfort for Labour, Martin most popular leader

Justice Minister refuses to quit in 'bow................................................................................................................... 39

Dr Reilly ducks out of abortion debate; Fine Gael colleagues round on minister over his early exit from abortionBill talks .................................................................................................................................................................. 41
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We're not trying to kill babies - we're trying to save their lives, committee told......................................................44

Rotunda chief warns of rise in number of abortions...............................................................................................46

Minister under fire for not taking questions; Early exit is labelled a 'farce' Hogan forced to defend Reilly............. 47

Can we all take deep breath, please? .................................................................................................................... 48

Doctors say bill would put lives at risk without major changes...............................................................................50

Abortion legislation still fails to meet real needs.....................................................................................................51

Obstetricians clash over suicide grounds fears...................................................................................................... 52

Government likely to face pressure to modify draft abortion Bill. Master of Rotunda Hospital concerned at suicidalintent as grounds for termination............................................................................................................................53

Doctors best placed to make calls on viability........................................................................................................ 54

Spectre of suicide haunts proceedings and is set for return. It wasnt long before sparks started to fly as tempersfrayed. .................................................................................................................................................................... 55

Nobody can say risk of suicide will never occur, committee hears. ....................................................................... 57

Jail term of 14 years for having abortion in Ireland bizarre................................................................................... 58

Maternity hospital masters differ over suicide provision in planned legislation. Medical experts addressOireachtas committee on first day of hearings. ......................................................................................................59

Pregnant women should be entitled to abortion if risk of dying by suicide exists, top doctor says ........................61

Archbishop criticised for expressing abortion fears................................................................................................ 62

Officials have no information on suicides by expectant mothers............................................................................ 63

Kenny dismisses claims abortion legislation will be too liberal............................................................................... 64

Committee hearings on abortion Bill to be confined to medical and legal experts. Three days of evidence beforeall-party health body to begin tomorrow. ................................................................................................................ 65

Bill would bring clarity to doctors on abortion issue. A cabal of politicians has come under the spell of anaggressive anti-choice campaign. .......................................................................................................................... 66
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Bu ttime r:'B iga sk'to ha vea bortio nle gisla tion en acte dbe fore rece ss

Buttimer: 'Big ask' to have abortion legislation enacted before recess

160 words22 May 201309:13The Irish ExaminerIRISEXEnglish Irish Examiner, 2013. Thomas Crosbie Media, TCH

The Chair of the Oireachtas Health Committee says "it is a big ask" for the government to have abortionlegislation enacted before the Dil's summer recess.

The Committee has heard three days of expert evidence on the proposed draft legislation, much of whichfocused on the inclusion of suicide ideation as grounds for a termination.

A report will be given to the Minister for Health James Reilly by the end of the month.

Fine Gael TD and Chair of the Committee Jerry Buttimer says the government has committed to enacting thelegislation by July but it will be difficult.

"It's a big ask but that's a matter for the chief whip and how they initiate it. First of all it's about the minister forhealth to come back with the legislation itself.

"The plan according to government is to do so by the end of July."

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Flo odg ates will noto pen as abort ion billis far too 'rest rictiv e'

NewsFloodgates will not open as abortion bill is far too 'restrictive'

Dearbhail McDonald

611 words22 May 2013Irish IndependentIINM3; National14English(c) 2013 Independent Newspapers Ireland Ltd

THE "floodgates" will not open if the Government''s planned abortion bill is made law because it is "toorestrictive" according to a former Supreme Court judge.

Retired judge Mrs Justice Catherine McGuinness, speaking on the final day of the Oireachtas committeehearings, said most women will travel abroad for a termination rather than apply to secure a terminationunder the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill.

Testy In a day dominated by testy disputes over the divisive 1992 X case - including the risk of suicide andthe absence of time limits for termination - Mrs Justice McGuinness said that it was "disappointing" that theproposed definition of the unborn does not cover the foetus incapable of independent life.

Senior Counsel Sunniva McDonagh, a member of the Mental Health Commission, said that certain matterswere not considered by the Supreme Court in the X case which, she said, "formulated a test without thebenefit of medical evidence or best practice".

"X is silent on some of the issues that revolve around the threat of suicide," said Ms McDonagh, adding thatthe medical evidence seemed to be that abortion was not a treatment for suicide.

Ms McDonagh said there was a possibility of "forum shopping" by both patients and doctors if women seekingterminations were not required to be examined by a panel of two psychiatrists and an obstetrician or

gynaecologist. The current heads of the bill say that women "should" rather than "shall" be examined byspecialists. "In law a mere exhortation is not mandatory or enforceable," said Ms McDonagh, adding it wasunderstandable that there would be a reluctance to subject a woman in distress to any rigorous or invasiveprocedure.

Dr Ruth Fletcher, Director of the Research Centre for Law, Ethics and Society at the Keele University in theUK, said the legislature needed to exclude, from the proposed definition of the unborn, foetuses with lethalabnormalities that would not have a future independent life.

"Foetuses are the bearers of biological life and future persons, but this is not the same kind of life as that ofbreathing, feeling, thinking women," said Dr Fletcher, who added that criminalisation did not protect foetal life.

Barrister William Binchy, legal adviser to the Pro Life Campaign, said there was no obligation on theOireachtas to legislate for the X case, which he described as a "wrong decision".

But Mrs Justice McGuinness, who defended the Supreme Court''s decision, said it was disappointing to be"going over" the X case when it was "the law of the land".

Senior Counsel Frank Callanan said lawyers could not deny that the X case was law, even if they did notagree with it. "It is woven into the fabric of modern Irish politics ... the X case is part of the constitutionalacquit," said Mr Callanan. Dr Maria Cahill from the faculty of law at University College, Cork, said theConstitution was uncompromising in its defence of human life.

Under the rules of statutory interpretation, Dr Cahill said it was difficult to see how the proposed legislationcould be interpreted so as to prohibit late-term, full-term or even partial birth abortion.

? FIANNA Fail leader Micheal Martin is facing fresh calls from senior TDs in his party for a free vote on theGovernment''s abortion legislation.

Finance spokesman Michael McGrath said allowing TDs and senators vote according to their consciencewould "represent a form of new politics we have signed up to".

Mr Martin has ruled out a free vote, and would like his party to back the Coalition's legislation.


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Ina nall -too fam iliar battl e,th eV oice ofR easo nta kes mid dle grou nda gain

NewsIn an all-too familiar battle, the Voice of Reason takes middle ground again

Lise Hand


MOLLY Malone is to be relocated, indecorous decolletage, wheelbarrow and all from College Green to MooreStreet. And so there's a space for a new statue of another Irishwoman on a podium (there are few enough ofus as it is).

So let's erect one called The Voice of Reason, carved in the diminutive but indomitable likeness of formerSupreme Court judge Catherine McGuinness.

There was a flock of legal eagles in the abortion committee hearings yesterday, and once again - ashappened with the politicians, the obstetricians and the psychiatrists - there were ocean-wide differencesbetween them, in particular over the fraught question of the inclusion of a suicide clause.

And in opposite corners during the second session of the day were two old sparring partners, Dr WilliamBinchy, long-time legal adviser for the Pro-Life campaign, and Mrs Justice Catherine McGuinness, whodeclares herself to be "expressing the middle ground" in the never-ending abortion wars which have raged inIreland across three referendums and four decades.

Both are on all-too familiar ground, and Catherine McGuinness was surefooted as she dissected theFloodgate Defence. If it's argued that Irish people are so strongly opposed to any form of abortion beingintroduced, then how can it be the same Irish people who will comprise of the flock of doctors carrying outabortions and flood of women seeking them, she asked.

"Is there not an inherent contradiction in this?" she wondered.

William Binchy fought his corner like the seasoned pro that he is, arguing that the Government is under noobligation to legislate, and that there were "options". Catherine McGuinness countered that the commentscame "out of the mouth that is trying to reduce options".

There were closely fought arguments from the four legal eagles - the other participants in the session were DrMaria Cahill and Frank Callanan. Many of the questions from the politicians had a familiar ring to them afterthree days of covering the same ground, over and over.

And maybe FG's Billy Timmins was suffering from a bit of gate-fever when he proclaimed in his own defencethat politicians might be swayed by lobbyists from either side of the argument.

"I did not get elected to respond to lobbyists or to represent the will of the people. I got elected to do what Ibelieve is right in the common good," he declared.

That's us voters told. But he should see about getting that statue of Catherine the Great sorted. In thecommon good, of course.

Catherine McGuinness was sure-footed as she dissected the Floodgate defence

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Su icida lwo men 'can ge tearl yde live ry'a tlate sta ge

NewsSuicidal women 'can get early delivery' at late stage

Michael Brennan


WOMEN who become suicidal at a late stage of pregnancy will be allowed to get an early delivery - but theirbabies will have to be kept alive in hospital incubators by doctors.

The Government has now confirmed that women who are suicidal and approaching the final stages of their40-week pregnancy will be entitled to get an early delivery - but not an abortion.

And, as the Oireachtas health committee concludes almost 30 hours of hearings, the Coalition has saiddoctors will have a duty to keep the baby alive.

But one prominent Labour TD stated that allowing for such early deliveries was "unheard of in any civilisedsociety".

Junior Minister for Primary Care Alex White laid out the official position by confirming that a woman with a lateterm pregnancy who was suicidal could get an early delivery - but not an abortion.

"This means that where a woman has a pregnancy that puts her life at risk, and her foetus is or may beviable, she may have a right to bring the pregnancy to an end, but not a right to insist that the life of the foetusbe deliberately ended," he said.

Criticism There had been criticism of lack of a time limit for getting an abortion in the Government's draft

legislation - compared to the general 24-week pregnancy limit in Britain and the USA.Nearly all pregnancies are viable after the 27th week.

Under the Government's draft legislation, unborn babies which are old enough to survive such a procedureare likely to be kept alive in a hospital incubator.

Labour chairman Colm Keaveney, in his first intervention in the debate, said he believed these provisions inthe draft legislation were "unworkable".

"It technically allows for late term terminations/early delivery of healthy babies which is unheard of in anycivilised society," he said.

Mr Keaveney questioned how the panel of three doctors - two psychiatrists and an obstetrician - would beable to come to an agreement.

"For example, if two psychiatric consultants recommend that a termination is the only solution for a suicidalwoman, will a consultant obstetrician ever recommend the late term termination/early delivery of a baby of30-week gestation for whom they have a duty of care?" he asked.

The draft legislation is now going to be published by Government, and the final laws pushed

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Inch ing tow ards Oire ach tas appro va l

Michael CliffordInching towards Oireachtas approval

1,012 words22 May 2013The Irish ExaminerIRISEXEnglish Irish Examiner, 2013. Thomas Crosbie Media, TCH

It is as if the cabinet lobbed the abortion issue into the committee and ran for cover as havoc ensued, writesMichael Clifford.

THREE days of hearings represents two steps forward for Enda Kenny, and perhaps one step back. TheOireachtas health committee hearings into the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill concluded yesterdayafter more than 30 hours of hearings since last Friday. Now, its onward ho to the full parliament and debate,with the bill making the hard inches towards Oireachtas approval, possibly before the Summer break.

In reality, these hearings were designed by Kenny and his honchos as a political exercise to soften up theFine Gael parliamentarians who are opposed to the bill, and particularly the suicide provision therein.

And it largely worked. For those who might be windy about voting for the bill numbering maybe a halfdozen strong the hearings presented the opportunity to reassure themselves, or, at the very least, feel thatthey are actually being listened to. Ego-massaging is a political tool, and rounding up a group of obstetricians,psychiatrists and lawyers for questioning was a nice touch in steadying nerves.

Kenny was conveniently on the far side of the Atlantic for most of that time. Some of his party members most notably the voluble Peter Matthews were peeved that he didnt put in an appearance on an issue thattugs at primal chords. Even more of the Blueshirt brigade were cheesed off that the minister for health JamesReilly scampered from the Seanad chamber immediately after opening proceedings. Its as if the cabinet hadlobbed the abortion issue into the committee and ran for cover as it wreaked havoc within.

Its hard to blame the band of sceptical Fine Gaelers and their kindred spirits in other parties who attendedthe full hearings over the three days. The tone of contributions, and the desperation that manifested itself attimes, is rooted in the belief that they are impotent to stop the march of this bill all the way into law.

In fact, at times the hearings had the appearance of a Fine Gael parliamentary party with a few, evangelicalanti-abortionists from other parties and none thrown in for a bit of colour. Jerry Buttimer kept a tight rein onproceedings, only resorting to a school masters tone on a few occasions.

The fare on the last day differed little for the previous two. A phalanx of lawyers marched into the chambersand divided into the two camps. Some old foes, like William Binchy and retired judge Catherine McGuinness,locked swords once more in what will surely be their last joust, over 30 years on from the days when theydiffered so much on the amendment that kicked off all the hassle over abortion.

The most cogent contribution yesterday was from barrister and doctor Simon Mills. He addressed one of themain fears of the nay-sayers that this bill will open the mythical floodgates through which legions of womenmight flow demanding abortions. Mills dismissed the comparisons that have been made with otherjurisdictions where abortion was introduced in limited circumstances. In particular, anti-abortion groups haverepeatedly cited the experience in California in 1967, and Britain the same year.

"Im aware of no country that introduced a test along the lines of the 2013 bill (the current bill)," he said."California was bad legislative drafting the English text was far vaguer than what we have here this isrestrictive. Nobody has been able to point to an identical bill."

His point was notable because the other precedents were cited over the days, and in the wider debate overthe last few months.

Anthony McCarthy, a peri-natal psychiatrist who gave evidence on Monday, was of the opinion that the billwould change little. Those who always went to Britain would continue to do so, he said, rather than besubjected to the strictures of the restrictive regime that the bill would herald.


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Catherine McGuinness pointed to the most vulnerable being the only ones who might end up being providedfor in the new law. "Anybody who has the means to go abroad will go abroad," he said. "On the other hand,we need to deal with the under 18s and people who havent got the capacity."

Despite the fears that have been generated, fanned and pumped up, its difficult to see how anything but ahandful of cases will be come under the new law. The general population can rest assured that the issue willcontinue to be sub-contracted out to the UK in particular, and everybody can continue pretending that there is

no abortion in Ireland.

The suicide issue was at the kernel of the hearings, and among some of the interesting insights into the blightwas one from Professor Kevin Malone of UCD. He claimed that inclusion of a suicide provision would"normalise" suicide, which could lead to more young people losing their lives. His opinion, while highly valued,was relatively isolated on that issue.

One way of the other, the dye is cast. The hearings may bring about amendments in areas such as theprovision of minors, and particularly those in care. But overall, the general thrust of the bill, thrashed out over50 drafts between the coalition parties, will remain intact. A few Fine Gaelers will go overboard, but nothinglike the 20 or so it was once feared might be lost.

Fianna Fil has a problem of a different hue. Finance spokesman Michael McGrath called for a free voteyesterday, putting it up to his party leader. At the hearings, the health spokesman Billy Kelleher acquitted

himself well, but the other side of the party was ably represented by Senator Jim Walsh. The party has all theappearance of being split down the middle on the issue. It hasnt completely gone away. The age old problemofabortion has the potential yet to do some damage in the political arena.

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Leg isla tion forki lling ofb abie s,sa ys lawye r

IrelandLegislation for killing of babies, says lawyer

707 words22 May 2013The Irish ExaminerIRISEXEnglish Irish Examiner, 2013. Thomas Crosbie Media, TCH

Proposed changes to Irelands abortion regime legislate for the killing of babies, it has been claimed.

During a day of clashing views over whether the threat of suicide should be included as grounds for abortion,barrister Paul Brady said doing so creates a statutory basis to allow the "direct and intentional termination ofan unborn childs life".

"Is this legislating for the killing of babies?" said Mr Brady. "I would say that certainly what it is doing is it is

moving the test for real and substantial risk by moving that to the grounds of suicidality away from physicalissues.

"Therefore if the womans threat is based on the existence of the child, the continuation of the pregnancy If I have to give birth to this child I will kill myself and so on what that person is looking for is an abortion,not some other form of treatment.

"And in that sense, I think it can be only a fair reading that it does legislate for as you said [the killing ofbabies]."

Mr Brady made his comments on the third and final day of public hearings on the proposed legislation beforethe Oireachtas Health Committee.

If enacted, the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill 2013 will legalise abortion where there is a real and

substantial risk to the life of the mother, including the threat of suicide.

The bill aims to legislate for 1992s X case judgment from the Supreme Court, which found abortion is legal ifthere is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother, including the threat of suicide.

The case was taken by a 14-year-old rape victim who became pregnant and was refused permission to travelfor an abortion.

The loosening of the rules is also intended to meet requirements from a European court decision that found awoman in remission from cancer should not have been forced to travel oversees for a termination.

Former Supreme Court Judge Catherine McGuinness insisted there was no danger that the changes wouldlead to doctors "killing babies".

"Were talking about real-life Irish doctors, not some legal concept," she said.

Ms Justice McGuinness also dismissed ongoing suggestions from anti-abortion campaigners that legislationwould "open the floodgates" to more widespread abortion.

She said the proposals were "sufficiently rigorous" to ensure that very few cases will be dealt with under theelement that legislates for the threat of suicide as grounds for abortion.

Doctor and barrister Simon Mills argued that a lack of evidence concerning pregnant women at risk of suicideshould not be used in the argument against the proposed legislation.

Dr Mills said it was a "stunning assertion" to suggest the issue of suicidality should be excluded from theproposals simply because the area has not been studied thoroughly.

"Youre talking about a tiny cohort of women for whom the threat of suicide in pregnancy is a problem and a

number of those for whom the question of termination might arise," said Dr Mills.Meanwhile, Mr Brady claimed, including the issue of suicide within the legislation marked a distinct change ofthe law.


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He said it would be inaccurate to suggest otherwise.

"Under head four, it will be statutorily provided for that the aim of the procedure can be to bring about thedeath of the unborn child," Mr Brady said.

"That will be the desired aim of the procedure not some other form of treatment, not some form ofrelocation, not some form of therapy to the mother which has that consequence.

"But that its the actual goal of that procedure, thats a new departure."

Mr Bradys comments were in stark contrast to past claims from Taoiseach Enda Kenny, who has continuallyinsisted the proposed legislation merely clarifies existing laws and provides doctors with a legal frameworkunder which to work.

Mr Bradys pro-life stance during the public hearings was echoed by barrister William Binchy, who said theX-case principle is not acceptable for legislation.

He said to implement it would be "a disaster in terms of human rights protection and contrary to science andgood medicine".

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Pu nitive me asu resg osi gnifi can tlyb eyo ndcu rre ntla w.

Punitive measures go significantly beyond current law.

Marie O'Halloran

529 words22 May 2013The Irish TimesIRTI7English(c) 2013, The Irish Times.

Provisions to criminalise abortion in proposed legislation "significantly" overstate the offence in existinglegislation, the Oireachtas hearings have been told.

Barrister Simon Mills said the section of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill creating a criminaloffence forabortion with imprisonment of up to 14 years, was "overbroad in the offence that it creates".

Dr Mills said it was a significant overstatement of the position contained in the 1861 Act, which criminalisedabortion. If the Bill intended to restate the 1861 Act it "misses that mark", he said.

"And some issue may also wish to be given to the question of the criminalisation of the vulnerable anddesperate pregnant woman, which the Act also contemplates. Offence Under heading or section 19 of theproposed Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill, it is an offence for a person to do any act with the intent todestroy unborn human life. The section will restate the general constitutional prohibition on abortion.

"It may well be that that's dealt with by the need to [pursue] prosecutions only through the Director of PublicProsecutions but it is certainly a matter I ask the committee to give some consideration to," Dr Mills said.

Solicitor Caroline Simons said, however, that abortion remained illegal in Britain and a woman had beensentenced to eight years for having an abortion at 30 weeks, so there was a need to retain the provision.

She called for an extension of the right to conscientious objection in the Bill to include trainee doctors, nurses,

pharmacists and others involved in assisting in an abortion.

She said a decision had been made in the courts in Scotland recently in which two midwives were relieved ofany obligation to supervise nurses participating in an abortion on the basis of conscientious objection.

"You do not have to have any religion to have a conscientious objection. A religious objection is somethingthat comes from the tenets of a particular faith which you follow,'' she said.

Dr Mills asked how extensive the right to conscientious objection was. There was a need to balance the rightsinvolved between freedom of conscience and access to a constitutionally available right on the other.

He said: "To what extent is there an obligation on an individual to notify either the existence of aconscientious objection or the existence of previously publicly expressed views of which a patient may not beaware?"

Statutory basis Barrister Paul Brady said allowing abortion for a suicidal woman marked a change in the lawand it was inaccurate to say otherwise. Mr Brady said section or head 4 in the draft legislation "creates for thefirst time a statutory basis in Irish law for what may be a direct and intentional termination of an unborn child'slife".

"Head 4 marks a change in the law. I don't think it's accurate to say otherwise," he said.

The Government fell back on arguments of legal necessity and lack of freedom of choice, he said, "ratherthan offering stand alone or policy-based arguments to justify the drafting choices that have been made".

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He aring ssh ow prop osa lsne edto be red rafte d.C entra ldif ficu ltyre late sto suici de clau sea nda bsen ceo fge stati ona llim its.

Hearings show proposals need to be redrafted. Central difficulty relates to suicide clause and

absence of gestational limits.

Paul Cullen669 words22 May 2013The Irish TimesIRTI7English(c) 2013, The Irish Times.

Following the divergences in opinion among obstetricians and psychiatrists over the first two days of thehearings, it was hardly surprising that the lawyers, too, aired wide disagreements at the Oireachtas healthcommittee.

After all, the witness list on the third and last day of the committee's hearings on abortion included

warhorses of pro-life campaigns past and present, such as Prof William Binchy and Caroline Simons, as wellas familiar speakers on the liberal side of the argument.

At times, it seemed like Groundhog Day, with Binchy re-arguing the ins and outs of the X case as though itwas only yesterday.

Perhaps these differences are only reflective of wider disagreements within society on abortion, but thewillingness of lawyers to process the same set of facts and come out with radically different interpretationswas worrying.

Barrister Tony O'Connor averred that the High Court and the Supreme Court were not the places to fight outthe issues involved and yet one senses it is precisely in these forums that difficult cases and challenges willbe fought out.

Practical realitiesIt fell to retired Supreme Court judge Catherine McGuinness, seeking to occupy the middle

ground in the argument, to locate the debate in some practical realities.

McGuinness tackled the frequent claim by Fine Gael backbenchers that the suicide clause in the legislationcould open "the floodgates" to abortion.

These arguments were illogical, she said, because it was claimed that the vast majority of Irish people wereanti-abortion and yet it was also argued that a flood of Irish women would seek abortion on false excuses.

"Surely there is an inherent contradiction here, and the 'floodgates' argument assumes that the reality is thatthere is a large proportion of the Irish public who actually want wider access to abortion, and will get it unlessthey are legally prevented by a minority who oppose this access?"

Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin's concerns about the absence of a gestational time limit on terminationswere understandable, she said, but this was an "unfortunate outworking" of the decision to insert the rights of

the unborn into the Constitution in 1983.

She said the Government was right in arguing that a constitutional right could not be time-limited. It might,she suggested, be "worth a go" to insert a time limit in the Bill and see whether it proved constitutional.

There was no agreement among the lawyers on whether it was at all necessary to legislate for the X case, onlegal developments since that case and on whether the removal of the suicide clause from the proposedlegislation would be acceptable to the European Court of Human Rights.

Three days of hearings have shown that the Government's proposals are in need of redrafting on severallevels.

First, experts have pointed to the need for technical changes in respect of definitions in the Bill, conscientiousobjection, locations where a termination can be carried out and the role of various types of medicalpractitioners.

Other witnesses have pointed to areas where the Bill fails to provide the required detail, most notably inrelation to consent and confidentiality issues for under 18-years-olds, and in relation to women with impairedmental capacity. The question of how many doctors should assess a suicidal woman seeking a termination


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did not feature as strongly as might have been expected, and the balance of evidence supported somesoftening of the proposed penalties for illegal abortions.

However, the central difficulties raised by many of the expert witnesses relate to the inclusion of the suicideclause in the legislation and the absence of gestational time limits.

Minister of State Alex White wrapped up proceedings last night by asserting there had been a "high level of

consensus" on most provisions, but that seemed overly sanguine to anyone who sat through the 30 hours ofevidence from 45 witnesses.

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Ab ortio nlaw inco mp atib lew ithh uma nrig hts valu es,sa ys Bin chy.

Abortion law incompatible with human rights values, says Binchy.

Michael O'Regan


The Government was proposing, for the first time since independence, to pass a law prescribing the death ofinnocent human beings, Prof William Binchy, legal adviser to the anti-abortion campaign, told the committee.

"It does so in the face of the evidence of psychiatrists to the joint committee last January, as well as theoverwhelming evidence of international research," he added.

"It falsely claims that it is bound to take this step because of the judgment of the European Court of HumanRights, whereas, in fact, the judgment merely requires clarity in our law.''

He said the legislation was incompatible with the core values of human rights which respected and protectedthe equal dignity and worth of every human being.

Prof Binchy said the intention in the suicide provision was to terminate, not protect, the life of the unbornchild.

Former Supreme Court judge Catherine McGuinness said she saw herself as expressing the middle-groundview in the debate.

"Despite the emphatic, not to say virulent, nature of some of the argumentation on both sides, I remainconvinced that very many Irish people will approve the Government's action in finally bringing forwardlegislation in accordance with the Constitution in this difficult area," she said.

Ms McGuinness said that, legally, the Bill's heads were well and carefully drafted so as to provide fortermination of pregnancy where that was constitutionally permitted and to clarify the position of the medicalpersonnel involved.

She said it was perhaps unfortunate that a situation where the foetus was clearly unviable had not beenincluded. At least the situation where the foetus was dead before birth might have been dealt with by achange in the definition of "unborn''.

Dr Maria Cahill, of the UCC law faculty, said the Constitution was uncompromising in its defence of humanlife. This was evidenced by the fact that it prohibited the direct and intentional taking of not only innocent life,but also even of guilty life by forbidding the introduction of the death penalty in the strongest terms.

It would be very difficult, she added, not to conclude that the suicide provision was simply unconstitutional.

Frank Callanan SC, said there had been a great deal of talk about the fact that there was no psychiatristinvolved in the X case. But there was a very experienced child psychologist whose evidence was of a verycogent kind.

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Fia nna Fil fina nce spoke sm an calls onp arty lea der toall owfr ee vote .

Fianna Fil finance spokesman calls on party leader to allow free vote.

Mary Minihan


Fianna Fil finance spokesman Michael McGrath has publicly called on party leader Michel Martin to allowTDs and Senators a free vote on the proposed abortion legislation.

Mr McGrath, who is Mr Martin's constituency colleague in Cork South Central, said the situation wouldbecome difficult for many TDs and Senators if a party whip was imposed because there were "very divergent"views within the parliamentary party.

"I think that's no secret at this stage. I suggested at the last [parliamentary party] meeting that we shouldconsider allowing people the right to vote in accordance with their conscience, to allow people a free vote onthis issue," Mr McGrath said.

"I think that that would represent a form of new politics that we have signed up to."

Fianna Fil has remained split on the Government's draft legislation on abortion despite strong signals fromthe party leadership that the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill should be supported.

A large group of Senators and some TDs expressed concern about the inclusion of a suicide clause during aprivate 4 hour meeting of the parliamentary party earlier this month, with some insisting they could notsupport the planned law in its current form.

They agreed to return to the contentious issue after the Oireachtas health committee hearings on the Bill,

which concluded last night. The parliamentary party is expected to meet again in the coming days.

Mr McGrath, who has not spoken publicly about the matter before, was launching a Bill to strengthen thedeposit guarantee scheme outside Leinster House yesterday afternoon when he was asked about the party'sposition on abortion legislation.

"This is a particularly sensitive, divisive issue. People have very strong personal views and I think for ourparty that that should be recognised," he said.

"And we also do have to bear in mind that only a few weeks ago our ardfheis, through the new democraticone-member-one-vote system, did pass a number of strong pro-life motions. We have to have regard to thatas well."

Mr McGrath said while the objective of the party was to come to an agreed position, he thought that would be

difficult. "I don't believe it is the type of issue where a party whip system should apply," he said. "I think thatwe should strongly consider allowing each individual TD and Senator the right to vote in accordance with theirown conscience. I think it is a unique situation."

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Go vern men twil lexa min epe nalti esfo rille gal term ina tions, sa ysW hite .Bill incl ude spro visio nfo run limite dfi nea ndu pto 14 years ...

Government will examine penalties for illegal terminations, says White. Bill includes provision for

unlimited fine and up to 14 years imprisonment.

Mary Minihan696 words22 May 2013The Irish TimesIRTI7English(c) 2013, The Irish Times.

Minister of State for Primary Care Alex White has said the Government will look again at the section of theplanned abortion legislation dealing with penalties for illegal terminations.

Section 19 of the proposed Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 restates the general prohibition onabortion in the State under article 40.3.3 of the Constitution and includes an unlimited fine and up to 14

years of imprisonment."I take the point . . . in respect of head 19 and the fact that the restated offences are cast, at least in one view,in relatively broad terms, and that is something that we will look at and consider," Mr White said.

The Minister addressed the Oireachtas health committee at the conclusion of its three days of hearings onthe broad outline of the planned law last night. He said it was "regrettable" that the possibility of allowing forabortions in cases of fatal foetal abnormality could not be considered under the legislation.

"I think it may be that this is an issue that will be revisited either by these Houses or by the people at somefuture time. If I may be allowed to express a view, that I would support such a course of action."

However, Mr White said everything that had been raised in the course of the hearings would be addressedand considered by the Government as it prepared the full text of the Bill.

'Greatest concern' He acknowledged that the issue of legislating for abortion in the case of a pregnantwoman expressing suicide ideation had caused the "greatest concern" at the hearings.

Referring to the evidence presented by the State's chief medical officer Dr Tony Holohan on Friday, Mr Whitesaid it could not be said a "real and substantial" risk to a woman's life could never occur as a consequence ofsuicidal ideation.

"We simply can't make such an assertion that it would never occur."

He urged TDs and Senators to consider how "onerous" the test would be: "It's worth pausing sometimes andreflecting on the nature of that test, which is a very onerous one."

Fine Gael Senator Fidelma Healy Eames had earlier insisted legislators were not obliged to legislate for the Xcase, "as it's not based on best medical practice".

Responding to Ms Healy Eames, Mr White said there would be scope for addressing amendments relating totechnical and drafting issues, "but a Bill there will be". He said the Government would introduce the legislationto the Houses of the Oireachtas and it would "certainly be based in large part on what's been before thiscommittee in recent days".

The end of July remained the target for completing the passage of the legislation.

Earlier, the committee heard evidence from medical ethics experts, including Dr Ruth Fletcher, seniorlecturer in law and director of the centre for law, ethics and society at Keele University.

She said the proposed legislation did not do enough to meet the ethical obligation to value women's lives,and referred to the "troubling mistrust" of women with suicidal ideation.

Dr Fletcher called for more consideration of the definition of the term "unborn" in the legislation. She said

foetuses with lethal abnormalities were going to die after birth "and therefore do not have a future aspersons". Fine Gael Senator Paul Bradford objected to her terminology. 'Orwellian' "There's something verycold to say that people do not have a future as persons. I think that's something which sounds a bit GeorgeOrwellian almost and frightening language," he said.


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"I think that's why some of us are so fearful of this legislation. That's the sort of scary thought place where itmay take us if we're not careful."

Sunniva McDonagh SC said she wanted to make some "constructive criticisms" in relation to the Protection ofLife During Pregnancy Bill 2013. She said the planned new law could result in what she described as "forumshopping" by the patient or doctors involved.

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Lea ding ba rriste rsa ysg ove rnme ntw illn eed tore thin kpro pose da bort ion laws

Leading barrister says government will need to rethink proposed abortion laws


A leading barrister said the government will need to rethink the proposed abortion laws when it comes toappeals such as if a woman is refused a termination under the suicide ground.

Dr Simon Mills - who drafted his own abortion bill at the last oireachtas committee hearings - is appearingbefore the final day of hearings on the legislation.

The draft heads of the bill allow for an appeal by a woman who is refused an abortion under the grounds laid

out - but do not allow for legal or other representation.

"It strikes me that this requirement arises possibly in two settings, one relates to the simple fact that a personmay not be best placed to put their own case and may require a case put for them whether some form ofassistance would be required is a matter for the Oireachtas," said Mr Mills

"But there is another area as well that arises and that relates to capacity to argue ones case."

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We 'ren otg ateke ep ers; Politi cian she arfr om psyc hia trists on abort ion

NewsWe're not gatekeepers; Politicians hear from psychiatrists on abortion

Niamh Lyons

1,184 words21 May 2013Irish Daily MailIRDAIM2; Eire6English 2013 Associated Newspapers. All rights reserved

THE State's three perinatal psychiatrists, who will be key in deciding whether a pregnant woman's life is atrisk from suicide, gave evidence at day two of the Oireachtas hearing yesterday. The Protection of the Lifeduring Pregnancy Bill hearings heard from consultant psychiatrists Dr Anthony McCarthy, of Holles Street, DrJohn Sheehan, from the Rotunda, and Dr Joanne Fenton, from the Coombe, at the meeting in the Seanad.

Yesterday's hearing was mainly focused on Head 4 of the Bill which is concerned with the risk of loss of lifefrom self-destruction.

Dr McCarthy said it cannot be ignored that women are travelling abroad for abortions but that their mentalstate can never be gauged, while Dr Sheehan raised concerns about the role that the new Bill will confer onpsychiatrists. Dr Sheehan also fears that women who travel to the UK for terminations may 'flout' the law. Hesaid: 'The extent of mental health problems and suicidal ideation among this population is unknown andhence, the utilisation of the proposed legislation on this population is unknown.

'This is a role Irish psychiatrists have not been involved in to date.

The role could be construed as making psychiatrists the gatekeepers to abortion. Psychiatric practice relatesto assessment and treatment of patients, not assessment and adjudication.

Psychiatrists are not judges.' Dr McCarthy said he feared vulnerable women may turn to buying dangerous

abortion pills online and self-harm in the absence of laws defining when an abortion can take place here. Hesaid there was a 'terrible Irish social history' of the treatment of distressed women in pregnancy.

He then told how he has treated elderly Irish women who had previously harmed themselves with knittingneedles after they learned they were pregnant - before abortion became legal in Britain in 1967.

Dr McCarthy, who is president of the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland, said: 'I think it is a sign of our nationalability sometimes just to ignore difficult questions and say 'let them go to England' or wherever they go now tohave their terminations or, increasingly, let them take their medication that they buy over the internet and takeit in their hotel rooms here, or in their homes, and abort their babies here, as women over centuries havedone.

'I have seen women, now in their 80s, who have talked about sticking knitting needles in themselves beforeabortion was available in England.

'I have seen people who have stabbed themselves in the stomach and who have taken multiple overdoses inpregnancy who were not mentally ill - they were profoundly distressed and at serious risk to their own life andthe life of the baby.

'We must dismiss the notion that somehow we can neatly discriminate between mental illness and distressbecause they interact.' The committee also heard self-harm is the single best predictor of subsequentsuicide.

It was told that one in 100 people die by suicide within a year of a self-harm episode.

The country's third perinatal psychiatrist, Dr Joanne Fenton, also spoke to the committee. The three leadingmedics will work as part of a team including an obstetrician / gynaecologist and psychiatrist to decide whethera pregnant woman's life is at risk of suicide without a termination.

Elsewhere, an expert in suicide said he is concerned the proposed Bill could see an increase in young mentaking their own lives.


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Professor Kevin Malone, who published a major study on suicide yesterday, said he believed the measurescould have unintended consequences.

He said highlighting female suicide in the law could send a signal to young males that the State is legitimisingsuicide.

Professor Malone said, contrary to the notion of saving lives, the net effect of the Bill could lead to greater

loss of life by accelerating suicide rates among men in Ireland.

He said: 'The legislation, which is based on the outcome of a 20-yearold risk assessment of suicidality,excludes 50 per cent of the population - males. Such a focus in excluding men in relation to legislation aboutsuicidality further eclipses the problem of male suicide in Ireland.' Consultant psychiatrist Dr Sen Domhnaill said: 'This Bill is not about saving lives because it allows for the killing of a physically healthy baby.'Consultant psychiatrist for Tallaght Hospital and Trinity College Dublin Professor Veronica O'Keane, andconsultant psychiatrist for Tallaght Hospital Dr Yolande Ferguson were also in attendance.

[email protected]

WHAT THE EXPERTS TOLD THE COMMITTEE DR ANTHONY MCCARTHY AS president of the College ofPsychiatrists of Ireland and a specialist in perinatal psychiatry at the National Maternity Hospital, HollesStreet, Dr McCarthy said: 'Suicide in pregnancy is real; it is a real risk and it does happen. This is always a

tragedy as at least two lives are lost and many others are affected.

'Abortion is never a treatment for suicide, but neither is counselling, psychotherapy, antidepressants oranything else. There is no treatment for suicide.' He said the question was whether there was ever a casewhere a woman would kill herself because of an unwanted pregnancy.

'If so, what can we do to save her life and would that ever be a termination of pregnancy? This Bill is aboutlegislating for that very small but real possibility.' DR JOHN SHEEHAN DR John Sheehan, a perinatalpsychiatrist in the Rotunda Hospital said he fears the new bill will be 'flouted' by women who travel to the UKfor terminations, and that people will see psychiatrists as 'abortion gatekeepers'.

He said: 'I believe the referred women are likely to be from those who travel for terminations. The extent ofmental health problems and suicidal ideation among this population is unknown and hence, the utilisation ofthe proposed legislation on this population is unknown. 'This is a role Irish psychiatrists have not been

involved in to date. The role could be construed as making psychiatrists the gatekeepers to abortion.Psychiatric practice relates to assessment and treatment of patients, not assessment and adjudication.Psychiatrists are not judges'.

DR JOANNE FENTON CONSULTANT perinatal psychiatrist in the Coombe, Dr Joanne Fenton said shebelieved the Bill was adequately restrictive but that suicide was a real risk for pregnant women.

She told the committee: 'The proposed legislation is very restrictive and with regard to my role as a perinatalpsychiatrist, I would not be intending to abuse it.

'Suicide is a real risk in individuals who have mental illness and has a devastating impact on all thoseinvolved with the woman. I have never seen a woman where termination of her pregnancy was the treatmentfor her mental illness nor do I believe that a termination of pregnancy is a treatment for mental illness.However, I cannot say there will never be a situation where a woman is in such a state of distress and turmoilthat, for her, a termination is a life-saving option.'

'There is a terrible social history'

'This Bill is not about saving lives'

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With all this talk abo utch oice ,yo u'd forge tth erea rem any wh odo n'th ave any

NewsWith all this talk about choice, you'd forget there are many who don't have any

Lise Hand


AFTER 11 hours on the psychiatrists' couch, this abortion legislation must have developed some seriousself-esteem issues by the close of yesterday's committee hearing.

It was surely left feeling unloved, unwanted, problematic, inadequate, confused and even despised.

It may have even felt as vulnerable as children who find themselves in the care of the State - but never mind

the Born, it's the Unborn who count here.

For while it may have been evident, as Fine Gael's Billy Timmins observed, that there is "clear division"between psychiatrists over the most contentious part of the draft abortion bill - the suicide clause - manyother perceived shortcomings were held up to forensic scrutiny in the Seanad chamber.

Dr Anthony McCarthy was incredulous over the notion that a suicidal woman with a crisis pregnancy would begrilled by 12 medics. He demanded: "Who came up with the conception that a woman who might be suicidaldepressed in pregnancy would see 12 people? What was he or she thinking? Was the thinking based on theidea of some young girl who got drunk one night and had casual sex, who did not take the pill and gotpregnant, and who would come along and fool us and, therefore, we must have 12 people hear her? "Did heor she ever think that this woman may have been sexually abused or raped, that the baby might be herfather''s or that she might have already tried to remove that baby by stabbing herself in the stomach? Howcould such a woman be expected to talk to 12 people?" Dr McCarthy added: "There is a terrible Irish social

history of the treatment of women in pregnancy in distress".

But this is psychiatry, and abortion is an issue in which one person's rationale is another's irrationality.

And so at the other side of the argument was consultant psychiatrist Dr Sean O'Domhnaill. He left thechamber in no doubt as to his stance. "Abortion has no place in modern medicine. It's a medieval solution inmodern medicine," he declared.

Dr O'Domhnaill lapsed into emotively lurid language, graphically stating how "anyone who has witnessed thecorpses left behind by the victims of abortion would not want this legislation. This bill seeks to turn doctorsinto abortionists," he added, before urging the legislators present to "display the integrity expected of you bythe people of this nation".

Integrity Fine Gael TD Catherine Byrne took exception to Dr O'Domhnaill's exhortation. "I don't question your

integrity, and I think it's wrong to question ours," she said."I take an offence to that.

I've five beautiful children and had five unfortunate miscarriages and I know what it's like to lose a baby at 23weeks and hold it in your hands, and I can only imagine the dismay that people go through."

There were so many wildly varying opinions and viewpoints, particularly over the suicide clause. This isn't justabout religion or morality or medicine. This is about class. Time and again there were references by thedoctors to girls in care.

"This is probably the main group of pregnant teenage girls for whom the proposed legislation will, in effect,apply," said Dr Maeve Doyle.

It's the poor, as always, who don't have the luxury of being pro-choice or anti-choice. For so often they don't

have any choices at all.

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Me dicsa ys abo rtion bill will send wro ngm ess age tosu icid al

NewsMedic says abortion bill will send wrong message to suicidal

Eilish O'Regan


THE Government's legislation allowing for the threat of suicide as a ground for abortion could end up givingthe wrong message to the suicidal and vulnerable young men in particular, a psychiatrist has warned.

Professor Kevin Malone, a researcher and psychiatrist in St Vincent''s Hospital in Dublin, said he feared that itcould have the effect of giving the impression of "legitimatising suicide" and accelerating the rate at whichyoung men are taking their lives.

"Contrary to the notion of saving lives in an extremely small number of females, it may be placing a greaternumber of young male lives at risk than currently," he said.

Prof Malone was appearing before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children which heard theviews of medics over two days on the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill which allows for abortion inlimited circumstances.

Although major divisions remain among psychiatrists, in particular on whether suicide should be included as aground forabortion, the majority of medical witnesses saw a need for the legislation, with several calling forkey changes to reduce difficulties faced by women seeking abortion.

Dr Eamon Moloney, a psychiatrist in Cork University Hospital, said a suicidal pregnant woman, who isseeking an abortion, should be assessed within 72 hours, not seven days as envisaged in the proposed

legislation. He was among a number of doctors who called for earlier access to assessment for pregnantwomen threatening suicide.

He also said the medical opinion of a GP and a psychiatrist should be enough to determine if a woman iseligible for an abortion, rather than an examination by two psychiatrists and an obstetrician. The strongestopposition to the legislation came from Dr Sean O Domhnaill, a HSE psychiatrist and director of the LifeInstitute, who told the committee that it was a "medieval solution to crisis pregnancies". However, earlier, DrAnthony McCarthy, a perinatal psychiatrist in the National Maternity Hospital in Holles Street, and president ofthe College of Psychiatrists of Ireland, said: "This bill is about saving women''s lives. Suicide in pregnancy isreal, a real risk, it does happen.

"This is always a tragedy, at least two lives are lost, and many others are hugely affected. We must doeverything we can to prevent such deaths."

Referring to arguments that there is no evidence of abortion preventing suicide, he added: "I believe thatthere will never be statistical evidence to prove this point one way or the other. Trying to prove anythingstatistically for such a rare event is extremely difficult if not impossible.

"Abortion is never a treatment for suicide, but nor is counselling or psychotherapy or antidepressants oranything else." Anyone who says there will never be a woman in this predicament "does not understand themess and the horrible nature of life sometimes, he added.

Dr John Sheehan, a perinatal psychiatrist in the Rotunda Hospital, took a more cautious approach than hisperinatal colleagues and warned that women should not make irrevocable decisions in such a crisis state.The risk of a woman dying by suicide in pregnancy is between 1 in 250,000 to 500,000 live births, he added.

"In practice, it is impossible for any psychiatrist to accurately predict which women will die by suicide inpregnancy," he said. Being unable to predict who will die by suicide is likely to lead to multiple false positives.

Dr Maeve Doyle, a child and adolescent psychiatrist, said girls who are in the care of the HSE who becomepregnant and seek an abortion are likely to be most affected by the legislation.


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Unlike those not in care, they cannot travel freely to the UK. The legislation must take account of this group,she said.

SUICIDE REPORT: PAGE 16 TODAY'S HEARINGS Session A: 9.30am-12pm Medical Law Session B:12.15-2.45pm Constitutional Law Session C: 3.30-6pm Medical Ethics Session D: 6.15-8.45pm ClosingStatements 'Law must cover terminations in acute hospitals' THE Government will have to allow forterminations to take place in acute general hospitals to allow for women who have life-threatening heart

disease, a leading cardiologist has warned.

Under existing terms of the legislation allowing for limited abortion, terminations would only take place in oneof the country''s 19 maternity units.

However, Dr Kevin Walsh, a cardiologist in the Mater Hospital, said it would not be possible to carry out atermination on a pregnant female patient whose life is in danger due to heart disease in a maternity hospital.

"When termination is required to save the life of a woman with critical illness then it would have to beperformed in an adult major teaching hospital with access to intensive care and the relevant specialists," hesaid.

"This clearly would not be the case in any of the public obstetric hospitals in Dublin."

" And Dr Janice Walshe, a medical oncologist in St Vincent's Hospital, said it would be necessary for thelegislation to allow for two cancer specialists to certify that a woman should have a termination in alife-threatening situation. This could be done in consultation with her obstetrician.

She said the administration of chemotherapy to a pregnant woman might have unintended complications,potentially putting the mother's life at risk.

Eilish O'Regan

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Co mmit tee toh earfr om junio rhe alth min iste ron prop ose dab ortio nla ws

Committee to hear from junior health minister on proposed abortion laws


The final day of hearings on the proposed abortion laws will hear from lawyers and the junior health ministertoday.

The Committee will then report back to the Government ahead of the final drafting of the proposed new laws.

Yesterday psychiatrists differed on whether the coalition should be including the threat of suicide in the law.

Last night medical experts outlined their views on possible medical cases.

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Ab ortio nis notr eatm en tfor suici dal tend enci es

IrelandAbortion is no treatment for suicidal tendencies

399 words21 May 2013The Irish ExaminerIRISEXEnglish Irish Examiner, 2013. Thomas Crosbie Media, TCH

Abortion is not a treatment for suicidal tendencies and there are no statistics on women threatening to killthemselves who do not want a pregnancy, a leading psychologists told an Oireachtas committee.

The second day of hearings into the Governments planned abortion legislation yesterday heard frompsychiatrists and other specialists.

Consultant perinatal psychiatrist Anthony McCarthy told the Oireachtas Health Committee abortion was

never a treatment for suicide. However, Dr McCarthy, president of the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland, saidthe nation had been ignoring the issue of abortion for too long.

He added that the country had let women go abroad or even let them take illegal abortion medication.

Dr McCarthy also said the proposed appeals process was too long and complicated, especially for someonewho may be mentally ill.

His colleague, John Sheehan, said it was impossible to say if someone would commit suicide. "Being unableto predict who will die by suicide is therefore likely to lead to whats termed false positives," said Dr Sheehan.

He said there was evidence to show that terminations could increase mental health problems among women.A very serious issue with the proposed legislation was that it could potentially normalise the issue of suicidalthreats in Irish society, the committee heard.

Dr Sheehan said incidence of suicide in pregnancy was between one in 250,000 and one in 500,000.

However, psychiatrist Peadar OGrady said legislation could complicate procedures. There was no need forobstetricians, as was the case in Britain, or three to four doctors to review a case, he said.

Psychiatrist Sean ODomhnaill said the bill would "turn doctors into abortionists". Abortion rates due tomental health issues were high in California and Britain, said Dr ODomhnaill, and Ireland would be nodifferent if the legislation was passed.

Fianna Fil health spokesman Billy Kelleher asked if it was not better that a suicidal woman had a procedurehere rather than abroad.

Fine Gael senator Fidelma Healy Eames warned that the threat of suicide to sanction abortion had openedthe floodgates for terminations in other countries.

The committee will conclude public hearings today and hear from a number of medical, constitutional, andlegal experts, and junior health minister Alex White.

The committee will then produce a report for Government ahead of a vote by members of the Oireachtas.

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Ab ortio nBil lrisks no rma lisin gsu icide ,sa ysp sych iatri st.P rof Kevin Ma lone wa rns ofse ndin gw rong sig nalto vu lnera ble you ngm en.

Abortion Bill risks normalising suicide, says psychiatrist. Prof Kevin Malone warns of sending wrong

signal to vulnerable young men.

Paul Cullen, Marie O'Halloran, Michael O'Regan582 words21 May 2013The Irish TimesIRTI1English(c) 2013, The Irish Times.

The Government's plans to legislate forabortion could have the unintended consequence of pushing moreyoung men towards suicide, according to a leading psychiatrist.

The inclusion of a suicide clause in the legislation could cost more lives than it saved by "normalising" it, ProfKevin Malone told the second day of the Oireachtas health committee's hearing on the proposed abortion

Bill.Dr Malone, professor of psychiatry in UCD and co-founder of the charity Turn the Tide of Suicide, had earlierin the day launched a major report on suicide among Irish males. By highlighting suicide, the State could beseen as legitimising it, thereby sending the wrong signal to young men who were most at risk, he warned.

There were sharp divergences in the stance of the 13 psychiatrists who gave evidence to the committeeyesterday, with claims by some witnesses that they were excluded from the decision-making process of theCollege of Psychiatrists of Ireland.

The college, which supports the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill, said its position was arrived at by itscouncil, the decision-making body representing more than 800 psychiatrists in the State.

Lack of unanimity Amid the continuing lack of unanimity among professionals over inclusion of the threat ofsuicide as a ground for providing a termination, there were also signs of further restiveness among Fine Gael

backbenchers over the proposals.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames described abortion as "a medieval solution to crisis pregnancy" and saidIreland had "done the right thing" by waiting so long to legislate for the X case. She shared Prof Malone'sconcerns that Ireland could be "legitimising" suicide by including it in legislation on abortion.

Dublin TD Peter Mathews accused the Government of rushing the Bill and said he wished the Taoiseach andTnaiste were present for the hearings. "This is their Bill and they should be here, not just the Minister forHealth. They're over there in America but here is where the focus is for this country."

About 50 anti-abortion activists protested against the attendance of Taoiseach Enda Kenny outside theBoston College graduation ceremony, where he was the guest speaker yesterday. The protesters heldplacards and banners outside the college's Alumni Stadium where the ceremony took place, objecting to hisappearance over the Government's abortion legislation.

'Hopelessly divided' Independent Senator Ronan Mullan summarised the first two days of evidence at theOireachtas hearings by saying that "the obstetricians are split over abortion and the psychiatrists arehopelessly divided". That "tells its own story," he said.

Dr Anthony McCarthy, president of the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland and one of only three perinatalpsychiatrists in the country, acknowledged there was a wide range of opinions in the profession on abortion,reflecting the deep divisions in society on the issue.

He said the issue was seldom black and white, and attempts to present it as such did a great disservice toanyone with mental health issues.

"The question here is not 'does abortion treat suicide?' but is there ever a case where a woman will killherself because of an unwanted pregnancy, and if so, what can we do to save her life and would that ever be

a termination of pregnancy? This Bill is about legislating for that very small but real possibility."Document IRTI000020130521e95l0004c


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Still no clea ran swe rsas deb ate goe son .Th erew as little agre em enta mon gw itne sses.

Still no clear answers as debate goes on. There was little agreement among witnesses.

Paul Cullen


Regardless of whether you are in favour of or against the planned abortion legislation, it is difficult not to beconcerned by the divisions between the professionals on its contents. There was a clear divergence ofopinion between the masters of the State's main maternity hospitals when the Oireachtas health committeebegan its hearings into the legislation last week. Divided psychiatrists Yesterday it was the turn ofpsychiatrists to disagree about the proposals in the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill to permitterminations in cases where there is a threat to the life of a woman because of the threat of suicide. It was

clear that there are deep divisions within the profession in relation to their envisaged role of assessing suchwomen.

Even the perinatal psychiatrists were split, and there are just three of them in the State. Again, the divergencewas most marked between staff working at the two big Dublin maternity centres: the National MaternityHospital at Holles Street and the Rotunda.

Dr Anthony McCarthy, who works in Holles Street and is also president of the College of Psychiatrists ofIreland, siad that, while rare, suicide in pregnancy is "a real risk, it does happen".

While accepting that abortion was never a treatment for suicide, he said the Bill was about legislating for the"very small but real possibility" that a woman might kill herself because of an unwanted pregnancy.

However, Dr John Sheehan, perinatal psychiatrist at the Rotunda, said the legislation will lead to multiple"false positives", where women are wrongly diagnosed as suicidal.

A number of witnesses called for a shorter time period for assessing women seeking terminations, but DrSheehan argued that medical and obstetric emergencies require very different interventions. The firstinvolves the speedy delivery of a baby but in a psychiatric emergency speedy delivery was "contra-indicated"as it was likely the patient had impaired capacity. 'Normalise' suicide Fine Gael backbenchers again raisedthe spectre of the suicide clause opening up the "floodgates" to abortion and Senator Fidelma Healy Eamesargued that it would "normalise" suicide in society.

Independent Senator John Crown countered that a woman trying to "game" the system by pretending to besuicidal to obtain an abortion would only be able to do so with the "informed collusion" of two psychiatrists,an outcome he suggested was not likely to occur.

Kevin Malone, professor of psychiatry at UCD, also expressed concern about the effects of "normalisingsuicidality" in legislation. One result could be to increase the suicide risk among Irish men as well as women

who are not pregnant, he suggested.

The divergences between witnesses grew. Dr McCarthy talked about hard cases, about a woman "who'sbeen kicked three times in the stomach" while pregnant and who knows that if she has the baby she'll neverget away from the man abusing her. Life was messy and seldom "black and white", he said.

On the other side of the argument, psychiatrist Sen Domhnaill claimed the Bill would "turn doctors intoabortionists".

Some new light was shed on issues relating to consent and confidentiality applying to minors under thelegislation, but overall it was clear that the profession with the key role in operating the legislation ishopelessly split.

Some psychiatrists are set to opt out on grounds of conscience. Others see their job as merely assessing

whether a woman is eligible for a termination with the patient herself choosing the treatment. For Fine Gael,itwasn't a good day for settling the horses.

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Re alris ko fsu icide duri ngp reg nancy .

Real risk of suicide during pregnancy.

Michael O'Regan


It was extraordinary that those opposed to legislation in Ireland disregarded the fact that some women goingabroad for an abortion needed psychiatric care, president of the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland DrAnthony McCarthy told the hearing.

"These women could be psychotic, have voices in their heads telling them to kill their babies,'' he added.

Dr McCarthy, a specialist in perinatal psychiatry at the National Maternity Hospital, and a psychiatric assessorfor the confidential inquiry into maternal deaths in Ireland, was speaking on the second day of the Oireachtashealth committee's hearings on the heads of the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill.

He said women who regretted having an abortion, and suffered because of it, might not have gone abroad ifthere was psychiatric assessment and treatment in Ireland. Their children might be alive today.

Dr McCarthy said pretending there was no issue involved in women travelling abroad for an abortionrepresented a sign of our national ability to ignore difficult questions.

"Let them go to Northern Ireland, Norway, or wherever they go now to have their terminations or, increasingly,let them take their medication that they buy over the internet, in their hotel rooms here or in their homes, andabort their babies as women over centuries have done,'' he added.

"I have seen women in their 80s who talk about sticking knitting needles in themselves before abortion was

available in England.''

Dr McCarthy said suicide in pregnancy was a real risk and did happen. "This is always a tragedy, at least twolives are lost, and many others are hugely affected,'' he added. "We must do everything we can to preventsuch deaths.''

He said much had been made about the so-called lack of evidence regarding abortion and whether it wouldever prevent a suicide. He believed that there would never be statistical evidence to prove that point, one wayor other. "Because trying to prove anything statistically for such a rare event is extremely difficult if notimpossible,'' Dr McCarthy added.

Founding member of Doctors for Choice Dr Peadar O'Grady said imposing a requirement for three doctors toassess a suicidal pregnant woman would cause unnecessary delay.

"There is no medical basis for differentiating between a medical emergency and a psychiatric emergency,'' headded. "All psychiatric emergencies are medical emergencies.'' Dr O'Grady, a consultant child andadolescent psychiatrist, said children were not specifically mentioned in the legislation, even though theywere most likely to experience difficulties in their ability to travel for an abortion. This could result in thembeing at increased risk of suicide.

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Psyc hia trists are do ctors ,no tju dges .Le gisla tion cou ldin crea se risk ofsu icide in youn gm ales, UC Dp rofess or says.

Psychiatrists are doctors, not judges. Legislation could increase risk of suicide in young males,

UCD professor says.

Marie O'Halloran544 words21 May 2013The Irish TimesIRTI7English(c) 2013, The Irish Times.

Psychiatrists could be seen to be the "gatekeepers to abortion" if the provision allowing for terminationswhere a pregnant woman is suicidal is enacted, the Oireachtas health committee has heard.

Consultant perinatal psychiatrist Dr John Sheehan told TDs and Senators that "psychiatrists are doctors, notjudges". He said that under section 4 of the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill, "psychiatrists are being

asked to determine if there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother in order that the mother mayprocure a termination".

Section 4 would create a role "many Irish psychiatrists have not been involved with to date. I think that manyIrish psychiatrists will not see this as their role as medical practitioners."

He said: "The role could be construed as making psychiatrists the gatekeepers to abortion."

Three perinatal psychiatrists in Irish maternity hospitals have never had a single case of suicidal intent duringpregnancy. The actual incidence of suicide in pregnancy was between one in 250,000 and one in 500,000."In practice, therefore, it would be impossible for any psychiatrist to accurately predict who will die. So it couldlead to multiple false positives." Patient profile He said if the section on suicide was enacted "it may wellchange the patient profile currently seen by Irish psychiatrists. Women who currently travel are more likely tobe referred for treatment in Ireland." And the extent of mental health problems and suicide ideation in thatpopulation was unknown.

Consultant psychiatrist Prof Kevin Malone said legislation to allow abortions for suicidal women could actuallyplace more young males at risk of suicide. The UCD professor of psychiatry and co-founder of the charityTurn The Tide of Suicide, told the Oireachtas health committee, that by highlighting suicide the State couldbe seen as legitimising it, sending the wrong signal to young men who were most at risk of suicide.

He asked how mental health literacy would be taught in schools, where suicidality is legitimised for women insome circumstances where the risk is two in a million while it is never legitimate in any circumstances foryoung men where the risk is 350 per million.

Overall he said the effect of the legislation might be greater loss of life than life-saving. Dr Malone said therewere more than 12,000 cases every year of people presenting at A&E for suicidal behaviour.

Consultant psychiatrist Dr Sen O'Domhnaill warned that the legislation would turn doctors into abortionists.

Abortion has no role in modern medicine he said and termination was a medieval response to crisispregnancies. Appropriate treatment Consultant psychiatrist Dr Jacqueline Montwill said "we do not need thislegislation". She said the appropriate treatment for any suicidal patient was to ensure their safety either athome or in hospital, to offer psychological support and counselling and psychotropic medication.

Dr Bernie McCabe, consultant psychiatrist at Navan hospital said suicide could not be predicted even in thosewith mental illness. No research "has been carried out on those who are suicidal simply due to the pregnancy.Yet the Government is proceeding as if such evidence exists."

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Do ctors diffe r,p atie ntsfl yan dm ajori tyin Lein ste rHo use give abo rtion Bill wid ebe rth. Oire achta sh earin gs matte rlitt leto the wo men leavi ng Irela ndfo ra bortio n.

Doctors differ, patients fly and majority in Leinster House give abortion Bill wide berth. Oireachtas

hearings matter little to the women leaving Ireland for abortion.

Miriam Lord955 words21 May 2013The Irish TimesIRTI7English(c) 2013, The Irish Times.

Doctors differ and patients fly.

This was the one indisputable fact from day two of the second round of Oireachtas hearings into theproposed abortion legislation.

Two groups of psychiatrists appeared before the Oireachtas health committee and presented differing views.But to the thousand

Press Coverage of Hearings on Proposed Bill

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