Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 5 OCTOBER 1911

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Adjournment. [5 OcToBER.] Questions. 1:331

THURSDAY, 5 OCTOBER, 1911.

The SPEAKER {Hon. W. D. Armstrong, Lockyer) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PETITION.

LIQUOR BILL,

.i\1r. ALLAN (Brisbane South) pre,ented a petition from 1,485 members and adherents connect.0d with the Presbyterian Church of Australia in the State of Queensland, pray-ing that certain provisions be incorporated in t]y, Li·:juor Bill.

Petition read and r.ecBivecl.

QUESTIONS.

UNEi\fPLOYllD IN ::-IAHYBOROUGH DISTRICT.

11r. =-"TULLA.~ (Charter? Totoer."), in tlie absence of Mr . .Adamson, asked the Chief Secretary-

" 1. Is he aware that there are large nuln-bers of mPn out of work in the 1Vlaryboroug1t district?

" 2. Is he further aw'lre that thc',c unetn-ployecl ~"':len are soli··itin ~ citizens in that dis-trict for foa.l Lend r:.Ihv~tY fare:-:; tn e.:.wblc the1n to get tn plac-:s where en1pl'""'yment offers?

" 3. Seei:cg that m~ n are "':'

133~ [ASSEMBLY.;

The S:?CRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (l-Ion. VI. T. Paget, ... liac}aJ/) replied-

1'1'easury Bills Bill. [5 OcTOHEll.] Tiwtsur." Hills Bill.

lo\vor rate of in tore··; than ha·, 2 a doubLi\ll invesbnent v>"lH.ro the interest ';vas larger. \Yould the Tre , urer limit it to "'custraii:1?

I-1 on. H. Prn=.:e: That \. ould bt.:') un\Yi~e. The T~~:E.\Sl.1 Li.'l~: I cannot E,ive a pro1nise

to do thaL Jlr. ~~-::T;LL_\_:\~ ((1h .to of afl:'airs.

}1r. ~1-r:RPHY: But the~.T c.1-11!10t fiLd th8 £2,000,000 thilt ho,s been spent.

:._.rl'. ~\lTJLiu:'t~: The fret that Govz;rn-thJ n1vne-,- in tlw,t case ... ,-as

ag; :. in, • the· soun.dnc•; of tl~e ~{a,;}lL.ung a sinking rund. l.f

OI"i.'-=' in Quee-ns] a :ad, the pro~ be {k~vDt,~d entirely to tho

the bonJ::5 in (_onnection \',-ith 11., ~,!1d then thPre ,_--ould Le TID danger.

Of courso, if .a ~inking fnnd -,\·-,-3 avai~~tl;Je for other purposf's, ther · would be no use in h.~ving it; })ut ;s: ~ _ -.:'1'-2 \-::ondnctcd on sound buaiPe,.:; lint-·-", it ·would he an un-doubl -·d aclv,,N.tagP. I£ tho C+ovf.:r 1n1ent '','·nlrl '1. iH'h_'.dc-nt. tl:

1334 Navigation Arts [AS SE11BLY. J Amendment Bill.

to prevent such an occurrenc-e in th.i11-tradc is gone.

i\1r. RYAN: Perhaps that might be so; but ho ·p·ould sugg£·st to the Treafurer to mal~ethe nilot liablG in thiS' Bill the same as 1n tho clam.d of the Fcdcrr:l Bill he just c~t~d. \_'fhv should thoro be one la'"' in Queensland and~ another hnv in anothtr part of AustrJlia?

~T~1 .u TnEASTJllER: 1 a~,:Ul1l8 that the Con1~ moH·v0~lth law y·il! supersede t.his. Tl fine a pil;>t up t~ .. £10~· for anv .~ccidPnt, ·· s sorr:.c 01 thmn r~ld nou g'et ,H;re than £200 a year.

Mr. LE);NON: £300 a year is the lowest.

Navi,qation Acts [5 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1:335

}lox. R. PI-IILP: Son1e of the pilots in ;\forth Quecnsiu.nd do not get more than £260.

Tho TRGASURER: rrhr: Brisbane Rivet pilo\-; range from c~'3CO to £430 a year.

Il0~. R. PHILP : Y csseh of 14,000 tons c;::,p_,,Fity 1· ere brought up to tho vd1arf near the \'i{ Loria Bridge, and it rcquir-'·d a goc cl df'rt.l of ;:kill t·o bring tho:::C vc.~jel.J up the riYo~·, and the pilot :"orvicc of Queensland ttf ~CTYI_rl cvel·y credit. Ten years a.go noth-ing like that tonnag"' "I.Y·:s bl'ought up th·J riye_·. Ilc had been connt'·· ~_cd 1sith ship-ping for : ·-lJlC yca.r::me to the ha't" con-

rus:l th,- Bill t'lroug:1 rui.nerl.

ll:l

fcvv ~.. '• ~- el:tNtdy pc1.itl ,--L . .J,OGD ·,o " r\.u

13.36 .L·Yavigation Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

\fhe TRK\.&CRER: 1'\o: h..; thou.nt of skill. They could gc::t a nloi~e e:::{}Jl.an..;,to_._·y int

L 5 0C1'0B1:R. J Amendment Bill. 1;337

1 L1 cLJ a 1nis .. 1kc. cycn though thB be n-c.v." to him, and ho diLl not

cat-chnJCnt ui - ind or tho effect of tho tide on her, ho should bo

hang·-ed, dra1-vn, .and 1 for rnaking -a 111i2take. Then he \\ th, ro-n1ark ho n~adc the othrT if Cvl)-tO:'t!.n of the "• :' n1ade an

ho be

=',J.f.r. RY A~ thought thG :vlinistc r ought lH-Y s-o1no attcnticu to the ~enutrks the

'l11e1r' ~(_'l' r or It w, s Pll id::.1t 1.-. in-

piloc, or -,-hat or an act;on

that it ,, a, tb.e better

nhjoction perhups not

·' l'CiL"fJil::iblc."

ant o·~ lT ·-.son-~ ~Je re;a ~o_nable : . ..:~11

or r -~.c. ~ .. l-nch -,--olLd J E]Wll a 1)artie:ular ci!'. 1.-linslancP.

B·1t th hon. Hl·"iH~lC:i: fo.:· ·rcJ to

-w:•· ,L, t-~~ b-bc_n ~~:~'~1l~i'i :~~~l fort ~~ ~~i_~~ 111 [L1 {'ll1Cl'( '?:1CTT. th__~ught

v J.s. a perlc'8tly r ~so1:-'l 11le thing· for bim d< '3HC\ an._~ th r~;entionu_1 on the "rcadi~c. he bad ~;ken tl~C' o:Jport ""' 01 con.u~c_~_·inr;·

ith tne Parhamontar. DL.ftsTnar!. wn:h 1 e-g._;_rd t) tl.: \VOr·:1s '' -..vsnt o,.. skill," ard JYlr. \Vc ~tat-cd that it. ·h"lS highlv .Y ho ,, 1!: ; he h~~rl In,?relv not ac ~pt it. ·

Inic··h~ be the he

1\lr. BARBER (BuwlalJcrg): Tho idea to ~~sPrt t,h.e won!.'\ rm;~on~,blo '' \Yas a g·ood or:e. 1~ ron1 .:.1.ts roacung ot tne report, of the In-{luiry into the a ,~ident to the s.s. ·· \Yaipara" he thon.~l~ he v;·as safe in say.ing . that there was pTobaoly n1ore croE.:J-cxr.nuna.tlon regard-ing the tin1e that the vess-el actu ~1ly passed one of the beacons or buoys in the channel. ..._~!]JOne turning- up the report would see tha~ the pilot y, as que sti:;med, the captain wa; qu{3 ... ~ioned, and the mates w-ere cross-(-;> t\mined in t.h"~ mutter, and the mat--' v,;ts the only one \;:ho s· tted th_,!J he ..;:1\V tho particular buoy rcfcrrPd to that aft8i":r:;oon. Tho phrase "physi::al disability or 1-r"lnt of skill" was the wording of the clause, but on that o:rasion the pilot said he never 3aw thr: particular buoy o~vi:ag to a heayy i'ain squall co1ning on at that pal"t:"ulo.r time. \Yhat he >vould like to kJ.·Jv,r was tha~ in the event of a p;lo'J being in charge of f hip~ and O\Ving to a fog dro~:ping on thern p;:-etty suddenly:, or a he·tyy rai 1 syuall corning up quickly nnd ,hutting; out the lead, or buoy. Or b. on. thG ::.hip ;.::-t.ting on ono of tl~c banks--"\\Ould not that giYc tho pilot an opportunity of puLlr:;g a yo::-y strong case before the board of inqnir,} as to the particular poiat that rnit,; ht be urged a,q-ajnst him that it \'1:.Tas throug·h want of skill on hi'J part that the ves,e! had run ashore. In fuin1Bss h) the pilot the 'vorC "reasonable" shonld be iDc:ertect He did not see how the pilot "\' :::s to set up vny par-ticlllar lino of dofenr r ~any strong defence at anv r:•,tc~-in anv inr;uir"T unless :-'uch a \YOrd "'v~·a~ ins.~~ytcd, ~becau::3e ~t~~3 court 1night ignor0 altogf~,her tho fact-he did not ~-._ty that they · · m.1d, 8 s th.ey 1.;.:ere fairly reason-2 ble men! as all sailors v.:ere. and the 1ncn1 hers of the board were men 'vho hnd spent a C"Jn-~·ide,ahlo time at t",·::.a·---nt the smno tirne it n1ight bo stated that i~· 'T:a.s no excu.:.e. for the pilot to sa 7 he could not sec the buoy. m bE1DOn. m !e,ds, as the

1338 l'Vavigation A.cts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

deal fairly with the trawllinb public. The Marine Board was appointed to inquire 'into these matters and fuilv investigate all the circumstances of a marine n,cciclcnt. and thPy might safely truct the board to deal fairly v ith captains or Pilot•. He did not think the insei:-tion of th-e '' ord '' reasonable " vvas going to make things any better for tho pilot. Vi"hen tho pilot took charge of a ship, he had the safety of the travelling public under his command. If an accident oc

1Vavigation Acts, Etc., Bill. [5 OcTOBER.~ Electric Ligltt, Etc., Bill. 1339

his license shou1d bo CPncclkd. If, as was suggested by the hen. member for To\vns-vill the vof;;;cl \vould not answer hor hf-·lm, and the pilot could pron that he gayo cer-tain orders to the man e~.t '.he "l1c .,1 and those orders \Yero Cttrried but '\YOre inef-fectual, surel.' no i-Iarine Board would consider tLat the pilot had chown any· ,,_~ant of skill. The insertion of the Vv"'ord " rc·t~onablo" ,~;ould not afford hin1 an;,"' groaL.~r lJI'Otcction in that C3. '-'C than th~ clause as it stood. So far as tho :0-Iarino Bottl'd cot::.c~rned, the com_plaint l1ad bo~n that '_"',e--re rather lenient \Yith capta .. ins and pilot"· ·who bee-~ n:;"',pon~ siblc to a c9rtain extent for accident "l.

Idr. LE~-JXOJ"-; di:::.- i;;recd last sp(

1310 Electrw Li,qld and Pow@;: [ASSEMBLY.] Act .Ame,zdment .E;?l.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: If the hon. member had read the whole of the clause, instead of only a portion, he would dearly understand the position. He (?dr. B:unes) would road the whole clause to £how £hat, after all they v. ere only bringing tho law into line. 'The clause read~

" X otv-H:ls~.lndiug anything in this Act, an electric authority shall nnt be authorised to r,lace :_· H el( ~..tric lln~e aboYe ground, along, O'Ter, o~ aero··~; any street, except in the man-lF'r pre:c,_Tibed by the Tf gulations and with th1:1 c::..:pr, ,·on:;ent of the l\lin~ .;t ~r. and the ~

A'lect rie Lig!t: and Puzce1· [5 Ocromm.J

the matter referred to by "''' hon. member for 11usgraye and hcn1. Llen1bcr for Bun-daber;,. ThG Com had been exceed-ingly consid0rntc tlw,t afternoon, and he hor,ed they would continue' ;'o and alloY·.' the clause to I' ) through fairly promptly.

l\lr. FOLE-Y '':as !:"Oing to oppoH? clause 3, if for no other reason thD-1]_ that it took awa,~ fro; 1 local authorities tLo right to saf~guard publiC? _?·:t~f·~y in }his particular nunter. The _~.\:i j,n1ste1· eta ted that the arncnd1nent propo>ed in tho clauPe .,, vuld Ri,r;_;pl~- br!ng th.e

1 8€~Jnd para~~ a ph of scc~io~

2-~ lllL·O hno. "-ltn _ tne preced111g pantgr.~tpn of that section. He would ratht>.' the '· ords "local authoritv" in_"-~rt-=.,-1 the

·agraph than ~mit thon1 fron1 thC' pnra~"l,_tph.

The SECRETL'\UT FOE PuBLIC \YORKS, I 2"n1 carrying out the r~qut v of the Loc~Ll :\uthorit.ies' Conference.

n1o-;-· ' hni:

.::,:nd there \Yf: _e 1-•J\Yll,

al ':L~l nicn 1 •.-drn ·were l!J§? ~ ) forrn a, company for that purpose.

\Ya ·1t0d all obJtacles re1novcd started on. tho bu~lnoss. The

\Vas taking a\,·ny tho right to public interes+ bv re1no in:" a

erected in a dan~rorous" -.._,osition~ or it ~ rr-:ted in a proper n1~nner. The

hsd bFPn in the Act till now, tht=>re had 1-:-cen no cornplai1tlt abou it.

but aldern1cn ·who "·anted to start an elP·Cl· tric plan' w ·rc a~king to haYc thi~ right taken ,::,_wnv fro

1342 Electric Light and Power [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amencl111ent JJiU.

Order in Council for the eonstruction of electric ,,·orks within its houndan·. Tlwre was nothing in the clause that would prevent them from doing so, and nnLll~r the principal Act the loc.tl authorities could ob·.ain an Order in Council from the Governor in C0un~ cil for the construction n£ works to light the town or city by electricity.

::'\Ir. LENNON: Could not the Government grant that power irrespccti\'8 of the local authoritic•,?

~\Ir. BOL"CHARD: No. Under section 10 of the principal Act the G ovcrnor in Council could not grant it unleH by the consent of the lo.ca.l authority.

lVIr. LEXNON: ... ~nd thev a.ro now se ·kint; to withdra•:., that? ·

lion. R. PHILP: No.

J\Ir. BOUCHARD: Subsection (2) of sc• tion 10 of the principal Act of 189c, '··Lid-

" An o~rder authorising the supply of f'lec-tricity by an electric authority '.;iihin the district of a local authority sh.tll not be grautc_;l by the Govi~rnor in Council, except with the con: 0nt c~ the loc:.._l authority, unless the GoYernor in Council, in any case in which the consent of the local authority is rc.i'used, i.s of opinion that, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, such con, -c'nt ought to be (i pensc:d v; it 11."

~h. :lJcLAcHLAN: There you ate. It ;. tk~s th13 whole' power away from the local autho-nhc". If the local authorities s1v "Ko" tho (}overno.r in Council sa:,- " Y ec- .·;,

l\Ir. :qoUCHARD: If any person or com-pany w1shed to get an Order in Council to .c_on~trw?t €lectric works, one of the pre-hminanE''' 'vas to give notico to the lor.::.tl authority, and if they could not .c;et authority fro.m the local anthoritv t.hev h -td to sho; .. · good g-rounds to the Gov:drnor ·in Council \'>·hv the cons mt of the local anthoritv should he dispen·ed with. · ·

:\Ir. 1\IcLACHLAN: But it still gives the Governor in Council the ri _. ht to act eYen although the con·-·ent of the. local authm·ity vvas not given.

l\Ir. BOUCHARD: Quite so; but no Go-vernor in Council or Government would arhtrarily grant permission unle,s for very good reasons.

l\Ir. BARBER: Do vou think this Govern-ment would do it? •

:\Ir. BOUCHARD: No.

:lir. LElmON: This Government "ould give awa::~ the light from the sun if they t;Quld do it.

:' 1r. BOUCHARD: The clause under dis-cu"ion did not affect it in the slighte,t, as it only dealt with overhead wirec,. If it were not as the 1finistB-r said-that the Bill was aslwd for by the Local .\.uthorities' Con-ference-he '"'ould have cpposed it, a.s he thought the loco.! authorities should retain all thi:o'1's like that, especially when there v:ad a chance of the electric 'vires bf :ng a dan2"t to tho travelling public. But the Local Authorities' Confen-1lce, in tb'-:ir "'ds~ dom, a.skt J the Government to a1nend the original .._,;_ct in that respect.

::\Ir. Rn \ND: Or was it in their foolish-nPss?

1\Ir. BOUCHARD: He und0rstood that the junjor Ineml \_~r for Tov1rnsvi1le was the one who moc·ed it in the conference.

Mr. LENNON: But he explained that he was only !he ddeg-atA of the Towns-rille Council, and was not in sympathy with the motion.

[iffr. Bouchard.

Mr. O'SULLIV AX (KcnneC:y): The fact that the Local Authorities' Conference recom-mended the amendment did not woich with him at all. It showed that they did not look ahead far enough. It showed that the men who wore elected to the local authorities did not have the best interests o.f the community at heart and had no civic pride, or they would not barter a·., ay their civic rig·hts in that way. Instead of looking aJtcr the inter>•sts of the people, th.-.y found repre-sentatives of tho local authorities parting with their responsibilities like that. It was not merely a matter for electric lighting; it was also a Pmver Act that they v.'ere amend-ing: a~ it related to electric power as well. Thev w•cre told that the T',-ea,_ urer had officials who would look out and see that there was no danger, but they would not he as careful in looking aftnr the public interest as the local authorities, espe~Cially where there was likely to he any danger. They Jaw that one of the municipal councils agreed the other clay to open only one side of the stree i. so that they could! carry the gas rnains. ~\ at.er mains! and telephones in the one channel and ··'s l'Ights. He laid the whole bJ.. n1e on the restricted franchise.

J\fr. RYL _\~D: Tho l~on. ntcmb'er for Bri

Electric Light and Power [.5 OcTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill.

tn(.ar.·,, used f:Jr the purpo~e of conveying, traw:anitting, tranr3forming, or distributing electricity, with :ctric light work.-., or an electric powDr-house, in sorne local authority"s aroa, !Und

'"' re a c;ksd to take a y~·ay the po\ver of lo< 1l _uthority to object lo that com-

pan~· cowrnencing Ol)erfltions •rithin its rarp.a :and confine t~~D pnwtr of: objection t-o the~ Mini·, '1'. so that the 11inistor might grant a concc-,ion over tho head of the local auth-ority. 'I he lo

Electric Light and Po1 er [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

c.lause \Yas LJcing av~ .1y fron1 the local autkori-ti'" ,, a. rJncurrent pO\\er and vesting the \Yhole po·ver in tl o hands of tl1o ::\Iinister. Tho local anthol·ity at rroY,'l~SvillC', :o,r in-stan~:. rni}:ht f.ind from son1o accident, or fron1 the a.pl ea.n:nce of the ir( , ov'--rhcad, that tl1ev dano:~~rou..;. \",.hY sho•_11d thcv not. hasC powei of au::;in:; a cornpla~-it io be laid. ,, ) that it might be inq1•.i1·cd i:ato? v,,.here "\','aS i he lo ~·ic of the Pl'Opc ition to de~ete the loc 1l atJ.tlwritv a.nt1 nnt t\,; burden on the ivlinister? The focal a{lthorih- ·;·as 111 _j he bes; position to jndce wlv:tlF r- cont-phint shouL1 be 1na.de or not~ and .t~l.e ::\Iiniste:' \"'; oulc1 b(~ w0ll-cHlvi, ~ 1 to alLr1Y tlus cla.use of tl c JJiH to be 1' ivec_1. Th ~ junior mClnber -fo.r Fortitnfle raisc~l intc2.·e.shng fc:'0int in ro· ard J:o of t~1e te:rn1 ·' c'?l ·ri& Enc. line," a.ccorc1in~· t1 rhe definiti0n bhe Act---

Those 'C·c·e the thin.Q's were rnado o£, provil:cct lines ·were

the e bv an electric .nthority. ..c\n elcctr~c ~utho~ity ·" v:as dealt · ,ith in Part

I1. of the ~\ct. 1xhich provided-

Goye-;.·no.r. in

TlH- ·eforo th .. "\ r·lcctric autho:r.it.v \"· . !":: rri,·en ~n"n po\Yers with re2: :~d to th~o pla~l1;g. ~f

- ·was defined i~ the order. Thnt was lin1it, and it an ex: taordinnrv

locttl houkl not h · ·01' r -L.u.:

Eleetric Ligld and Power [5 OcTOBER.J Act Amendment bill. 1341>

{)ouncils, and now, one of the most import-ant things-lighting and tramway services-the Governmont proposed to take completely out of the hands of the local authorities. All :t private syndicate would have to do would be to go to the Secretary for Public Works and ask permission, and he would grant them the power of taking charge of the light-ing and tramway system of a town. lYe had in Brisbane an example of the evil of that sort of thing. All theso things should be municipalised wherever possible. V\"hy did not the Government, instead of taking away power from local authorities in this matter, introduce a measure making it easier for town councils to estabJi,,h electric lighting and tramway companies in their respective towns? 'rhe hon. member for Drayton and Too-woomba, Mr. Roberts, could give some in-formation to the Committee as to what had been going on in Toowoomba for some time in connection with the establishment of tram-ways in that city, and advanoo very good reasons why the local authorit~- should hold the power of veto in their hands. He (Mr. Hunter) intended to oppose the clause, and hoped that the Committee would not give its consent to shorten or in any way limit the powers at present possessed by local autho-rities.

Ho1i. R. PI-HLP did not think he should have taken part in this debate if it had not been for the remark of the last speaker !hat that people o.f Townsville wanted to " per-petrate a job." He might tell the hon. mem-ber that the people of Townsville were just as honest as he was. Two cit.ies in Q•Ieenb-land had tramways. In Brisbane we had the overhead wire system, and it had been work-ing for a great number of years with advan-tage to the people of Brisbane. There was another tramway syst"m in Rockhampton.

Mr. }IANN: It killed a man the fhst dav it was opened. ·

HoN. R. PHILP: We heard o:f people being killed in Sydney almost every v.eek. The Rockhampton tramway was one of the most pronounced failures we had in th£ State. Fo:r many years the people of Towns-ville had been trying to get a tramway established. At one time a gentleman there, and Labour man, :i\Ir. Willard, who on one occasio.n won a seat in the New South VVales Parliament, had the right to build a. tram-way in Townsville, and he held that right for many years, but could not ca.rry out the work. Now, apparently, there were some enterprising peopl.e in TownsYille who wanted to build the tramway, and they wanted the overhead wire system, such as we had in Bris-bane. ThnJ, he beJi.eved. was one of the reasons why the local autho.rity at Towns-ville wished to have this amendment made in the ~\ct. They submitted the proposal to the Local Authorities' Conference, where it was brought forward by his collettguc, who explained that he introduced it at the request of the council, but v:as opposed to it per· sonally. The conference, however, approved of the proposal. and he thought that if the Local Authorities' Association approved of the proposed amendment, members of that Committoo might very well adopt it. One o.f the biggest concessions ever given by any Government in Queensland was given by a Go.vernment which had tho entire support of the Labour party, and at that time the present Premier was not a member of the Kiclston Ministry.

An HoNOURABLE MEMBER: \Vhat was the concession?

1911---4 0

HoN. R. PHILP: The concession was that which was given to the Brisbane Electric Light Company, and rhat concession was given by the Kidston Government, supported by the Labour party. The man who spoke against that concession was a member of the Opposition, :\Ir. ,Jenkinson, the then member for Fu,sifern. He was the first man to oppose it in the House, and the members of the Labour party were dumb on the ··ubject.

1\Ir. HARDACRE: l'\o; they were not. :\lr. J. :!\I. Hl:NTER: That v·as clone by an

C'rclc:· in Council, and not by this House.

HoN. R. PHILP: The Government did it, and no.t one of their supporters raised their voice a.g-ainst it.

Mr. :f.IARDAC'RE: Y o;;r party supported the Kidston Government against us in that matter.

HoN. R. PHILP: If the hon. member would look up the records of the debate, he would find that the only member who spoke against that conce.-,ion "as the member for Fassifern, and he spoke from the Opposition side of the House.

:VIr. HARDAOllE: J\'o; he ',poke .frou that side_

l-1 ON. R. PHILP: He spoke from the Opposition benches.

:\Ir. MANN: He was a member of the Philp party, and he took up the full time, so that nobody else co.uld speak.

HoN. R. PHILP: He spoke so well that there was no need for anyone else to speak. However, the people of TownsvilJ,o wanted an overhead wire system of tramways, and he understood that was the reason why they suggested the amendment propo-ecl in clause 3'. They did no.t want to invest money .in the enterprise under present conditions, as if the Labour party got into power they might be ordered then to take clown the w"ires. In view· of the fact that the Local Authorities' Association had adopted the amendi!ljent by an overwhelming majo.rity, he thoug·ht the Committee might safely pass it.

Mr. LENNON: The Premier and other members on Jhat side of the House, more persistently than decently, kept up the jibe against the junior member for Townsville that he actually proposed this reform, so called, at the Local Authorities' Cbnfcrence, and that, too, in face o.£ the fact that the bon. member had oxplainecl that he was opposed to the amendment, and in proposing it was merely acting as a dPlegate of the Townsville City Council. He thought that hm1. members opposite should accept the dis-claimer of the han. member, but appar·cntly the Government and their supporters wished to fix a charge on the hon. member, without any rf'gard to ifs truth or otherwise. It seemed to him that bv this amendment the Government wer.e anxious to take away from the local authorities a eertain power which they now possessed_

The. PREMIER: The Local Authorities' As-so.ciation asked for it.

:\lr. LENNON: As was explained by the junior member for Townsvi!J.e, there wag ncithing to show in wha,t condition the members of the conference wPre when they passed the motion.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: That is an unfair reflection.

Mr. LENNON did not think it was a re-flection at all. Possibly they were not in a

Mr. Lennon.]

l34ti Elect1'1:e l.igJd.and PoweJ· [J.SSEMBLY.] Ad Amer,dment Bill.

proper frame of mind to consider the dtf ca-tion. He did nee know whether they had a

mandate from the preceding Go-[7.30 p.m.] vernment, but it seemed to him

that they would give a mortgage over the :eery sunlight if they thought pro-per, and 1t appeared to him that underlying tlus very mild and innocent looking jll'D-posal might be some deep-seated scheme-·· as suggestea by tho hon. junior membe;· for Fortitude V alle.·~·to take away the flOwers of the local authorities of dealing vv1th tile proposals rnach~ fD:i_' txtendod franchise cmn~ in r, frorn tinw to tirno frorn the lJrescnt Bris-b:1no Tramways Company. He. hoped hon. n1en; lJers opposite \Vould sec that it \vas verv desire.ble to take this clause out. The Go-vernrrlent seemed dt t\_tminod to force it th1·cugh if they possibly COL!ld, and it was the duty of members on this side to do everv-thinr; possible within reaoon to block tl;o GovL rnrnent in their inl:cnt.i.on.

OP:::>oSITIO~ ME.)IJ3EHS: l:Iear, hear !

Mr. LE='!NOf.i: By and by it might be too late when they discovered that their powers had been whittled away in the same way as in n,c;ard to tho £600,000 which was so nicelv od old gag and guillotine. ":\1r. L ...... si : GlYi:ag ::nvay valuable con-

t~sBions and. thu1 puttin.:._- the gag on. "\Vhat a dc-no .... rati;J Goyernn1ent: \Vhat a lovely, lT'.odeol, { 1 ocratic G::n·,-:-rnment! A lot of " bocdlers " ~ "

It was h< l'Llh· fair to accuse the member.> of tho LaLom: party of having had anything to say at all in the granting of that con-co: Jion. There was no saying how the vote would have gone if it had beoi1 put to a vote.

Mr. D. HuxTER: You were oppming this Goverw,wnt at the time.

Mr. MURPHY: It was unfair u say that the Labour party wo .. Jd have supported that concession, unlc''·- they could produce in Han-sard a division which showed conclusively that they did support it. He himsel£ was ag~\,inst the concession, and lafor on tho hon. mem'Jer for Cairns and himself criticised the propmal, and it was not fair to say :hat the Labo~r varty agreed to the COllC"""'ion.

Hon. R PHILP : I sttid the Labo·c~r party s~tpportcd the GovernnlPnt after the concns-:)1011.

M:r. UliRPHY: There was no doubt the Labour party supported the Government after th.:tt C

Eleetric Ligltt and Powu [5 OcTOBER.] Act Amen lment Bdl. 1347

should J)C met by a national tax, and that was .ca;·ried by a large majority. Would the Go· vornment do that"? ·when this was read over how tnany of t.~1e delegates who were pre-_,,ent 1;oanl tho motion or rca !I v understood what the tcnns of it were? .,

The 8ECRETARY :FOR Ptrni ... IC IKSTHGCTION: The hon. rnen1"....-er for Townsville n1oved it.

:'.~r. ;,;_.1,1\N: It was mordy read over and ther~' \Yas no discussion on it at all, so that the members thure did not get the hang of it. ;-:)c,~ing that a Labour 1nan like ~\1r. Foley moved it, and a sound L!beral like }Jr. Hartill Law seconded it, the delegates felt that with such a combination thev must be absoluttlly >afe in letting it go thr~ug-h.

The SECHETARY FOR PcBLIC IxSTHUCTIO'I: \Verc there not a lot of Labour delegates at the r~onfercnco ?

'Jr. 'IAKN: Thoro might have been. He kDew one delegate who "~·f~nt to a confe1·encB fron1 Cairns, and ,vhcn he came back he rc ported that he voted for every· thing "chat "·1s carried and voted against m·er;;·thing that was lo ,t. (Laughter.) He rnusf .iut Yu just 1li.'atchcd how 1nany hands v-Pnt np, alld he ,\-onld shoot his hand up accordiug us to how the majority \Vent. (L pchtcr.) If tho Goverrcment v, ,,re justi-

.ficd in bringing in the amendm

lB48 Electric Ligl!t and Puzcer [ASSEMBLY.] Af·t A111endment B~ll.

deleted, then fifty shareholders of the gaH company could say the wires were a men

Hlectri(' Li£rht and Pmur [5 lJCTOBER.j Act Amendment Bill. 1349

iocal authority the power of looking after public safety, and he would give a

[8 p.m.) case to show the benefit of the local authority having that power.

There was a certain doctor in Townsville who had an electricC1l establishment of his own, and he wanted to stretch a wire across tho road from his laboratory to his private ho"pital.

The bell intimated that the hon. member's time had expired.

Mr. FOLEY (continuing): He wanted this for the purpose of applying the X-rays. He put up a wiro in a flimsy 1nanner, and the mayor ordered the wire to be removed, be-cause he reckoned that it was unsafe for the public. Tho doctor appealed to him (Mr. Foley), being an alderman, to see if per-mission could be granted to erect the wire. and he asked the wayor if he wonld cancel his order on condition that the doctor put up a perfectly safe pole to carry the wire. 'The rna) or consid-ered tho matter and gave his permission on that condition. If there had been no power for the council at that time to interfere, the chances were that a flimsy ctffair might have been put up, and a load of furniture or something els•. might have come in contact with it, and somobodv rnight haYo been injured or killed. ·

Mr. \VHITE: What bearing has that on the clause?

IIIr. FOLEY: It had this bearing on the clause: If th'_"re had not been power for tho local authority to sec that tho wire v. :cs properly erected, the result might have been loss of life. During the referendum the argn-ment on the othc~ side was that we should not give away our powers to other people. but now they proposed to take away power from the ]o, a! authorities and centralise it in Brisbane.

:\Ir. ROBERTS (Dmyton aud Toowoomba): It has been said that the :\Iinister introduced this amendment because of the resolution passed by the Local Authorities' Conference; but they could see from the proceedings of the conference that the resolution was pas.;ed without discussion. 'That led him to infer that it was near the close of the session. 1e·hen the delegates were anxious to get away, and he believed a number of them had alreadv left. All the local authority was permitted to do under section 24 of the Act was to state a case, which would be settled by justices, and under the circumstances he thought it would be a mistake to amend the Act as pro-posed by this clause of the Bill. 'The hon. member for Musgrave said that electric light was not established in the towns and cities of Queensland. There was a very efficient

1350 Electric Light and PowPr [ASSEMBLY.] Art Amendment 1Jtl1.

c~me along and made a succe,s of any par-ticular thmg, then members opposite "anted to get control of that particular industry.

Mr. LENNON : IV e want to get control in the first place.

Mr. MORGAN: They did not want to do the experimenting work. 'fhey wanted the experimenti'lg work done for them, and ~vhen it_ \Va~ a pro\~cd success, they 'yanted r.o step Ill. rhe} never wanted to step Ill and take over something that was not a success.

Mr. LENXON: You do not state the case fairly. . Mr. MORGA"'.: The leader of the Opposi-

tiOn wanted to grve more control to the local authorities, and accordipg to his own state-rrwnt, they \vcre a set of "old fossils," and were not r apable of carrying on their work.

J\4r. LEN NOl-i : I never said anything about therr competency; not one word. Don't mis-represent 1nc.

Mr. :UORGA::'\f: The hon. mc·mhr said they v. erB incapable.

1\lr. LENNON: ~\Ir. Stodart,-I call vour attention to the fact that the hon. mer;1ber for lllurilla persists in savin~ that I said the loc.1l authoritieJ are not· co~petent to carry on thmr busmc·,;. I absolutclv deny makin.r any_ s;;ch statement. I own up to "old fossrls.

OPPOSITION 1IE1rBERS: ·withdmw!

Mr. MORGAN: If the hon. member did not mean to convey tha.t thev were not capable of ca-rrying on thBir duties, he would withdraw, but when the hon. memher culled them "old fossils," one naturally thought he meant they were no.t capabl.e of doing the business they WBre sent there to do. I-I~ (Mr. Morgan) had attended two local authority conferences in Brisbane, and h had also attended conference' in the other States and the d~legates who .;vere sent to Brisba~e by the drfferent loca1 authorities ·vere just as capable of carrving out their dutif'~> as any in Australia. · ·

IVIr. RYAN: Then why do you want to take away their po.wer? ·

Mr. MORGAN: His onlv reason for takiniT away their power was that men interested i~ gasworko 'would not be able to prevent tho erection of electric lighting plants. They could trust the Minister in charge of that department to see that whenever an electric lighting plant was established, everything would be carried on satisfactorily.

Mr. For,JW: You mean to sav that tlP local authorities cannot be trusted.

Mr. MORGAN: The local authorities could be trusted in many instances, but if there was only one case where electric lighting would be stopped, thBre was sufficient justifi-cation for an alt"ration being made. and hon. members opposite must admit that it was ,advisable that electric lir(hting plants shouttd he e'tabii·hcd throu;d1out Queens-land. In Victoria almo.st every little town with a population of 1,000 had th0ir own electric lighting plant, and in almost every case it was run by a company. ·

Mr. LE>vay o.f companie:; erecting electric lig·hting p13.nts. Hon. members oppositf' ,,·ished to place the whole power in the hands of thB local autho-rities and take it away from the Minister.

Mr. FOLEY: No ; the :i'dinister still has the ~a.me power.

f.Mr. lJ.forgan.

J\Ir. 'HORGAN: U the local autho.rities said "No," the Minister could not 0\·,er-rid" them.

:\lr. FoLEY: Yes he can.

:\Ir. MORG~l."-1: H the 3.1inister could over-ride the local authorities, there wou"'l be no necessity for the alteration. He did not think the :\linister c•-ould take upon himself the responsibility of ovBr-riuing a decision arrived at by a local authority. He hOJ,JBd the cia use would he agreed to, so tnat throug-hout queensland, wherever desirable, clBctric ]ig·hting plants could be established, so that the people would get a cheap and effective light.

i\ir. HARDACRE wished to refute a state-ment made by the senior member for Towlis-ville, who. accused the Labour party of '-UP-porting the Kidston Government in granting a conc€;ssion to the City Electric Light Com-pan:c of Brisbane. Th< f a':ts of the case were that the Order in Council was g·iven sccrBtly, that it was subsequently di,;covcrcd by the hon. member for Leichha.rdt, and immE' lia-tely after it was disco.-cred th2 Lal;our party o.;opose i the Government.

Mr. 2YlANN: Kot on that ground.

::\1r. HARDACRE: On that and other grounds, and the Opposition, which was at that time led by Mr. Philp, supported the Government. Th0 Order in Council was granted on tbc 15th April, 1908, and on t]p 20th April tl1P present Premier, in the absence of Mr. Philp, who had gone to Svdn,w, announced the formation of a eoali-ti-;m between the Opposition and the Kid-stan Govcrnment-

Mr. \VHITE: what bearing has that on the subj eet? It is a Ilfere fluke that that occurred five days afterwards.

Mr. HARDACRE: On the 20th April Mr. Denham, the present Premier, said in the House-

" I just wish to exprer;s the opinion generally that the country will be gratified to know that the three-party sy,tem in the House is likely to con1e to an end.

" N,[r. BowMAN : And the long lost brother will be taken back.

" RoN. D. F. DENHAM: I will not say more than that, as you, Sir, will rule me out of order. I believe that the Premier's attendance at the PremiErs' Conferenc'J will be strength-ened by the knowledge that there is to be a cohesive party behind him.

" Mr. Bovvii'IAN : Say a coalition at once. " Hox. D. F. D~JNHA~1: There is very little

divergence of opinion between the two parties.'~

At the cooiL>l('Il

Electri(' Lignt and Powe1• [ 5 OcTOBER.] Art Amendm~n! JJill. 1B5l

the Gowrnment, that after an Order in Council had been granted permitting a com-pany to become an electric authority, and tho company had spent a consiclorablo sum of nlOllf'Y in erecting plant, it was not a fair thing that the local authority should have power to interfere and order the com-pany to take down their linc·s. But on further consideration he had come to the conclusion that the amendrrc•1t proposecl was not the propn way to get over the difficulty. Sec-tion 24 of the prin ?ipd Act, which it was proporcd to ampncl, provided that when an electric line had b en erected above gronnd by an electric authority, and th, local autho-rity ''7 as of opinion that. it ·was dangerous or likolv to become dangerous to public safety, they might make eo?nplaint, and have the matter determined by two justices, who might make an ordc1· for the removal of the line. An~· part'· feeling aggrieved by their decision had tho right to :·•ond the matter to arbitration. He adn,ittcd at once that it was hardly fair, after the Govc_rnor in Council h::d granted 'Pl order permitting a cDmpany to eetablish works for the supply of clcctri(' light or pow0r, that two justicer an order 1nay, in 2dditjon to any regu-lati:-~n::: which n1ay be 1nHde under the provi-~ions of the last pn;c,·c any by-laws ultra -vires.

Ti1e SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Apparently the hon. n101nbcr was more of a iawy-r than he wa,c. Tho hon. o-entleman \Yf..3 altog;other wrong, and he .iliould be Yel"• doubtful about accenting his law on the' subiect. He took it that whatever side of tho l1oue2 hon. members wore on, the7 at least had considerable confidence in the Parliun1cntary Draftsman, and recognised hi,o great ability. If this particular clause r>rOY••J -lfra ,.-;,·es, as the hon. member for )Iaranoa said, would t.he Parliamentary Draftsman have pOJt it in?

Mr. J. M. HUNTEH: I F.aid the by .. laws.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: 'The·,, had had a lot of discussion, and if the thin.g was not right, lot them knock it out, and not waste valuable time. The hon member Tefcned very largely to what w~s behind this. It would be admitted that m a hot climate such as ours whore you could g-et development along th" lines of the lighting of a small to''~ n, rt was a great rh:tn\'back w"IJon £n-,n1 3~Y rca,,on there \Vas ~ restriction there for · hoalth's sake and for !'n:1ny other thing'"· .Jnst a~ sincerely as hon. n1cn1hers oppot,it _, he had no 1nore ,ympathy ,; .. ith anything which wa'· going i; thP direction of depriving local authori-ties of their legitimate powers than they had, and he would ask them to get on with business in view of the importance of some other Bills which, after all, were of

H on. W. H. Barnes.]

1352 Elect-ric Light and Pmcer

much greater interest to the community-the Factories and Shops, Machinery and Scaffolding, and Wages Boards Bills, which he would like very much to see out of the way. He would say at once that hon. mem-bers opposite had been verv considerate in their criticism generally, but he thought there had been sufficient criticism and dis-cussion to-night, and if the thing was wrong, let them get to a vote and wipe it out and pass on to other Bills. Some hon. members on the other side had complained to-night that it might happen that some members might not have backbone, but he, at anv rate, was going to have sufficient backbone to have this clause in the Bill, and he as sure hon. members opposite would re-pect him not one •.vhit the leso.

' Mr. COLLINS: The hon. member for

Murilla led them to believe that nearlv evc:;ry Iitle tovm in Victoria with a pop~latwn of 1,000 had electric :ight. It wt" not long ago since he (:\lr. Collinc.) was down there, aud he did not see the electric light in places where the nopulation was greater 1-han 1,000. 'rhe Victorian Year Book said that tho number of eleLtric light and power stations in Victoria in 1909 ,,,,._, 13, but the han. member for Murilla would lead them to believe that nearlv ever·y little village in Victoria was lighted up under private ent0rprisc with a splendid systern of electric light. Such was not the case. V-.-ictoria \Vas no 1nore progressive than Queensland; in fact, it was a long \VaV behind Queensland. The hon. member \\ on"t on to say that private enterprise generally started these works, and & s soon as l;By made them productive and profitable, thern was " cry for the municipalities to take them over. As a rule in the past it wca the municipalities who did tho unproducti.-e wo~k, such a.s the making of roads, and Jhey pard no drvrdends, but thcv left to privnlc enterprise the things that" were profitabh. The tcndc,ncy in modern local government throughout tho civilised world was to muni-cipalise all these utiliti0s in the interests of the people, but the clause sought to take away some of these powers from the local government. He was against taking away any of the powers of the local authorities, because he believed in the local authorities having control. It was a sort of municipal socialism. He attended the Local Authori-ties' Conferenc0 as a delegate himself, >end there were over 300 delegates there. He saw by the report of the conference that ~he. proposal was carried by a large ma-JOrity, and that there was no discussion on it.

The s~cCRE1'ARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : Were there not a lot of Labour men there?

Mr. COLLINS: There were about half a dozen Labour members. He did not remain himsGlf, because he saw it was a farce, and he declined to take part in such a farce. When the Labour members got up to speak, they did not meet with a verv good reception. 'i\'hen 1\Ir. Theodore got n]'" to propoce a motion. it wac. like hell ld loo.s, and he was howled down.

The SECHETARY ron PUBLIC Jl,;,,TRUOTION: How was it that the Labour members did not protest against this when one of their numbPr moved it?

Mr. COLLI='JS: He was only responsible for himself and not for ·any resolution that

J!Ion. W. H. Barnes.

.!J ct Am-endment Bill.

was moved. Because the Local Authorities' Conference wished for this clause, that wag no reason why it should be p.!aced on the statute-book. :Members of Parliament were elected on a different franchise to what the local authorities' del0gates were. The mem-bers of local authorities represented vested interests, while members of Parliament re-presented the masses of the people, and he \vas not going to retard progress by voting in fayour of taking away from the local authorities rhe power to construct utilities in the interests of the people.

Mr. \YHITE: Then vou will vote for this clause? "

:Mr. COLLI='JS: The clause would restrict the powers of the local authorities, and that was why he was going to Yote against it. Tho hon. me nlw,· for Murilla was a member of a Shir·c Council in Victoria·-thc Donald Shire Council-and it was one of tho most conservative shi:n~ councils iu Victoria. In fact, they \Yould hand over tho roads to private cnt >rpri"" i£ they could, seeing that they h ,c] handed over the electric lighting, althmrr h he did not know that that particu-lar shire \\·as lighted by electricity.

Mr. li.UtDACRE asked the Minister to accept an amendment that would meet the views of the Opposition.

::VIr. RYLA"D: Let it go to a vote and we can get in an amendn1ent afterwards.

:VIr. HARDACRE: Xo. If thev went to a division, and· wore defeated, they could not then amend the clause.

n1r- RYLAKD: \Yo can put in a new clause.

Mr. HARDACRE: The Governor in Council had power to establish an electric authority, 'which might be a local authority, or a private company. Say that in a small town like Longreach or \Vinton, or Charle-ville, the 1Governor in Council granted an Order in Council to an electric authority which -,,as a pri.-ato company, that corn· pany might wish to put up overhead elec· tric wires which would cross the street and which might be a danger to the life of the cmn: mnity. If the ~VIinister carried his amendment, then the local authority con· cerned, who were on the spot, would have no say in the matter at all, although thd wires might be dangerous to the community. It would not be pos;iblo for the local autho-rity to interfere and have the wires re· moved, and it would b.J left to the Go-vernor in Council in Brisbane, who would not realise the danger, and nothing would be done to remove the wires. At the pre-sent time the local authority had power to call attention to tho matter, and tal

Hlect1'ic Light and Power [5 OcToBER.] Act Amendment liill.

interfcwd with to that extent, and he hoped thG Minister would accept an amendment on those lines.

The bell indieatcd that the hon. member's time had expired.

Hax. R. PHILP: When the principal Act ~vas paFsed fifteen years ago it was believed rt 'Yould be taken advantage o£ all over Queensland, but outside Brisbane, Thargo. mindah, and Ch11 rtcrs To~A'Crs, there was no place which has installed an electric lighting sysh•m. Tho l'eason for that was that nobodv would invest moncv with the risk of ha;·ing two justices tefling them, after thev had spent £40,000 or £50,000, that they lnu&t ta k>J awav their wire.~.. It was much better to have' the power in the hands of the Ministry, who, if the thing assu~ncd any din1en"ions, -;vould appoint an cxpr·rt, 'vith whom people could consult before they put up works, and whom thev would ha.-e to satisf:.· that the;:,· ,_.,rc doing the proper thing bdorc: th 'Y started to spend tnon; Y· If th0y ,, ent to I~ongroach to-rnorro•,\-, he- qur ·~tioned if theY "\Yould :6nd anyonL "·ho know anything about electric lighting. There \Vere fc\Y experts in Queons-!and. He would like to see electric light-Ing all ovc1· Queensland. It was much safer, n1uch cooler, and, he bc-lie~:ed, nuwh chPaper than g:", but for some reason it had not conw into use since the paf~sing of the Act in 1896. HP did not know what moved the people of Towns.-ille to bring the matter up, but apparen: l;r the whole of the loi!Rl authm-ities in th" State approYed of tho motion. H o could not understand the hon. mcmlv·r for Burke, who posed as a demo-crat, -::antin;- to give this power to such -conF.ervatlYt: bodies as the local authorities. If thev "antd electric light to become gen· era!, they should leave the power in the hands of the :'\.1inister, who could afford to have an expert to advise P

1351 Electric Light and !'ower [ASSEMBLY.j "-! f'! Amendment Bill.

most up-to-dat or' until such local authority has €~;>_rci··cd H-. powers of purchase in thE" _\ rt o:r 0rdcr or in this Rection containEd, or has otherwise ac1uin:d the under-taking of the con:pany."

'l'he present Minister for Ao-riculture was the author of that provision. "' In proposing the clause the hon. member said-

·: The nc ~v cluuse provided lhat, at the Pxpi-ratwn of SIX month~ after the nasHing of the Bill, .t}le loeal authority r.ait_,_ht -purchas(, and that II thE- ~:as com.pnny f;:· il•_-,d to as-ree t1 a sale, the :to cal nuthJrity IEight 8tart ga .;~;vcrks of their mv11. \Vithnnt the last parac;raph of t~e clauGe .th~:-c would be abc~olutdy no protec-twn t:::> eXISting C"lmpanies, and he con:;;idered that it was a rc~.sonable pro\Ti:;iOn."

So the whole thing was put in for the bene-fit of companies ank. and the g·as company, by some undergwund mc•ans, p1·aetically closed them down and got the control of the electric light, which was nDt a gDod thing for the people of Charters Towers. The local authority should have seized the opportunitv and taken the business up and carried it on in the· inter

Eiertric Ligld and Power [5 OcrOBER.j Ad Amel!d""""t Li I.

were local authorities only too willing to have electric lighting established, but under the _pres~mt Act they had ~ot the power to do It. The Bundaberg Town Council very recently we~t. to sorne expense in getting an expert to v1Slt the town, and they intended to go on With electric lig-hting, but their attentwn was called to clause 149 by the gas company, and it "as found that the Bunda-berg Town Council wor.- unable to go on with the work. They g-ot cotmP>l's opinion, but it was absolurcly against th,·m, and they had to give up the whole idea of lighting the town by electricity, as they did not w,mt to take over the Bundaberg Ga•.workr. He would likE> to impr• •. s upon hon. members that if thev got co.mpetition between a.n electric Iiahting con1pany and a ~as con1pany, they would get a b•ttor and clwaper light.

),Ir. ltYLAXD: Then you •·•·ill hav-e a trust. l\lr. WIHTJ

H56 Electric Light and Puv:er [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

Mr. 'WHITE: I wouldn't touch it with a pole.

Mr. BARBER: He was against the pro-posal, and would do all he could by his voice and vote to prevent a syndicate bleeding the public of Bundabcrg.

Mr. liiORGAN: What are the gas company doing now'!

Mr. BARBER: They were doing very well; they had a monopoly at the preoent time.

Mr. IVHTTE: And you are perpetuating it. Mr. BARBElL Yes; he stood by the p1 e-

sent lighting system until they could g·et the Local Authuritie:J Act amended iu ,uch a way as would allow the Bundaberg :\luni-cipal Council to establish a lighting system of their own, and thus enable the ratepayers, and community generally, to patticipate in the profits derived from the supply of light and electrical motive power. In Queensland we were a century behind other places in th s matter. In a very large majority of the small towns, harnlot~\ and villages in the old country~ as well as in the large Continental countrir s, Canada, and the ·Gnited States, th'':V had a lighting sy>tem of their own, and the prnf.t; from the enterprise went into tl>e pooket'· of the community generally instead of into the porl;et·. of private individuals. Ace 1rd· ing to the report fnrmshed to the municipal council by the electrical en !!inecr employed for that purpose. it would be a Yerv easv matter to e'tablish a system of ~lectric lighting in Bundaberg, and as he wished to see that wcrk undertaken by the courcil, ho would vote against the amendment when it went to a division.

Mr. ·wHITE wish8d to sav a few words in reply to what had been s~id by tlce hem. member fot Bnndabcrfi. Th" hon. m0mbe m.ade a. pm·>,onal attack on himself.

Mr. BARBER: No, I did not.

:\lr. WHITE: He did not think the hon. member would ever be accused of trving to do any good for the town he represcnt.ed.

Mr. BARBER: Thanks for your opinion. I knocked you out, any,yay.

Mr. WHITF:: He did not think the hon. member would :knock him out again. ;f he tried.

Mr. BARBER: I will give you th,·ec to one on it.

M1·. WHITE: He hoped the hon. member would allow him to sp.','HITE: It •ns !lot for sc•ndieates.

It would crf'atc gre.ctt competition between e-ns cnn"!nttnicR anrl electric companies, \vhich ·wo•er £or Buudaberg had ever put his hand to anything that was going to improve the place. lie (Mr. White) had spent a good deal of money in Bundahcrg.

Mr. BARBER: And vou made it nearly all there. .

Mr. WHITE: He had a good deal of moneY before he went there. Th~ bell indicated that the hon. member's

time had expired.

Mr .. J. :':1.1. HUNTER: The hon. member for Muso-ravc had said that this was not intended" to favom· svndicatcs, but the Bill would >enable syndicates to get possession of electric lighting power in the s0;me way that gas companies controlled gas. Had that hon. member, who happened to hav

Ez, ctric Light ond .Po'wer [5 OcTOBER.] 1357

by-laws in opposition to that, takin"' to them-selves rights which this amendr:::ent took away from them? He was surprised to hear the Treasurer, after telling them that he had been connected with local authorities for so many years, state that it did not matter what the House did, because the power was still in the hands of the local authorities to make regulations. Members on. this ~ide w~re not going to allow legis-lation hke thrs to pass through without some l?rotest, but they were asked to quietly allow rt to g·o throuo:h because the Treasurer had some other important Bills to bring f?rward. There was no more important Bill tnat could be brought forward than this. If it . were only t? give to the municipal cou!'crl at Townsvrlle the power they were askmg for he ';·ould not mind it, but this was a far-reachmg amendment and applied to every town council in Queensland. and every ratepayer in Queensland would resent any action in the direction of taking away the'e powers. ·

The bell inCii.cated that the hon. m

Fltctric light and Powe1" [ASS ~:MBLY.J Aci "1mendmen t Bill.

be !-! ) amendment were acceptc l T h _ section would read-

" \VlH-:>n an eJ,'Olctric light ha -ueen placed ground bv an electric authority in any

if th ·.Minh~ter or a majority of elec-1YPn. is of opinion that such electric

or i·. likf'1Y to become dangerous to the 1 frty, etc."

'I'hat would give perfect safdy. and put it on a democratic basis. Th,·, complaint of tho hon_ meuber for :\lnsgrave '

[5 Ocrom;R.] Act Ame~ptable to members C!f the Committe,:-". The id~-a \vhich str._lck .h1n1 111 list ·ening- t•J. the discussion and y, atchm!.(· th~ obstinacv of the ;vlinistN in rdusmg to ac-cept an}' amendment, wu' that .. there must certainly he son1e vrry strong 1nHuence be-hind tl1e GoYernrrwnt t~:at was ·forcing them to bring this thing to a hC'·td. Not one rp-;olnti~).ll pas~8t1 by the Local _.:\uthC?rities' Conference had been submitted to the House for a.pproval, except the one_ relating to the provision in thio clause. \'v hen that parb-cnlar resolution "''a,~ carric'd at the conference ~.vithont objection and \vithout discussion, it struck him tha.t the whisper must havB g'!ne round the whole nu tin~· that tho motr:o.n must be carried. He c0uld come to no other conclusion, ueca.use he expected when he moved it that there would he very strong-0ppositio·' on the part of the dcleg:~tcs to alJ,1.'\~in9."" the pov.rer of n1alnn~ COf!l~)hant to lw t.akcn a" ay from locco,l authorltles. He con1d not; unfterl--fand hov;,r a.lrlie>rrcen and members oi that Chamber could acot'pt. such a, nronosition. \Y er-e the,- callous to t.he safety· of the public? Were they not m· t.f'-'Y'Stcd in th-e sa.f{•ty of thP pu bhc, or vn·rrJ they onlv interested in the best way of mak-in

13ti0 E/e,·tric Light and Power [ASSEMBLY.] Ad Arnendmeut Bill.

down of liYe wires before any actwn was taken in the matter. An incident like the one h~ had brought forward to-hight about the wne across a street in Townsville might have caused an accident to several people before the Minister might have been warned of it. T~te safety of tho public should be in the keepmg of the local authority, and the Government which tried to take that power from them was not doing right. It would not be safe to remove that power from them. He hoped the :\linister would recon,ider his decision t? accept no arnendrncnt"l, and so ~ive the Committee an opportunity of hav-mg an amendment drafted which would make up for the deletion of tllG words pro· posed. If that was done the Bill YYOnld paEs ail right. IIo had no objection to the Bill, so long as something was put there to ensure the safety of the public ;, tho electorates throughout the StatL

Mr. O'S"CLLIVAJ'\ supported the amend-ment of the han. member for Charters Towers, YYhich was moYed in order to pro-tect the public. It would also protect the municipalit.ies of the future from the grip of _monOJ?Ohsts who might, by the oppor-tumty thrs would grve them, fix their talons on the people. 'l'he gas industry, which might be termed a dying industry, was to-day protected from competition with local authorities by the old Local Authorities Act, and they could not be 'hifted unless they were bought out. The priYate electric com-pany would compete with them. but this par-ticular power would allow local authorities to declare that any overhead wires were dangerous to life. They also wanted to pro-tect the rights of future local authorities which might have more public spirit than what they had to-day. He was surprised they had not heard something from the Home Secretary, who was such a great democratic State socialist.

The HOME SECRETARY: That is more than the han. member is.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: But the han. gentle-man had not raised his voice because he was not a true socialist. This clause was simply paving the way in a young country like this for syndicates to come along and take advantage of the privilege given them, and so be the first in the field with this modern illuminant, or power, which was going to revolutionise the means of produc· tion in the future. It was placing a load on the people in the future. These loads were sometimes piled on unthinkingly, but he believed that in this instance there was a designing mind behind it. No argument had been brought forward by han. gentle-men opposrt,e to prove that these local authorities represented the ratepayers. They knew that they should represent the rate· payers, but they did not represent the people, and this House should decide whether anything was injurious to the life of the people. A democratic Government would have seen to that, but the Govern· ment only made a pretension of democracy; they did not do anything for the interests of the people. He hoped to see a greater civic pride· in our local authorities; and by defeating this Bill they would bring about that civic pride in the future, and those who took the place of the reactionaries who controlled local government would bless the Opposition and those who might vote for this amendment.

fMr. Foley.

Question put. Mr. RYAN hoped the Treasurer would see

hi' way to get up and give the Committee some explanation of the reason for the clause. So far they had no explanation. and the ~\linister must see that the Opposition had made up its mind to get some sensible ex-planation for the exclusion of those words from the principal Act, and that explanation should be given. The matter of taking away from the local authority the right to make a complaint appealed to him so strongly that hG thought they should insist on getting some explanation of it from the Treasurer before they allowed the clau;e to g·o through. At present the local authoritir' could appeal to two justices, with the further right of appeal to arbitr:.ttion. It might be left to tho local authorities to decide it and then it would be said ~hat the local authmity would be open to mfluences. The Minister for Lands, as a lawyer. must appreciate the point taken by tho Opposition, and perhaps he would bring his legal acumen to bear and explain the reason for the clause. The reason could not be only because it was passed by the Local Authorities' Conference. because, as the han. member for Cairns pointed out, other resolutions were passed bv the confer-ence which the Government did not c~rry out. The ::\Iinister should have the courtesy to make an explanation, if he could. If he could not make an explanation. he should say so, and then they would p0rhaps be able to go to a division.

Question put.

:VIr. J. iii. "HUN'I'ER: The Minister did not seem disposed to give an explanation for taking away the power which the local authorities held to-day. The real explanation was one which the 2\Iinister would not dare to make. It was reallv to enable the Minister to giVe an Order in C>Ouncil to syndicates similar to that given to the Brisbane Electric Lighting Company some time ago. If the clause were passed, the :Minister would be able next morning to grant power to any syndicate to light any town in Queensland by electricity. They had to fight to get the provision vested in the local authorities, and they should fight to allow it to remain there. The Local Authorities Act at present provided that a local authority could not start the electric lighting of a to":,vn without first buying out the loc11l gas company, and he thought they should get that Act amended so that they could have electric light installed by the· local authorities for the benefit of the com· munity, and the ratepayers would b

Electric D.rJ!'t and Power [5 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bi1l 1361

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: The Minister should consider the desirableness of amend-ing the Local Authorities Act in the direc-tion he had sugge•·-ted rather than in the direction of taking away powers which the local authorities should possess. He intended to support the amendment.

Mr. HARD_\CRE: The discussion clearly showtcd that the Minister must have been under a misapprehension when he introduced the clause, because he was barking up the wrong tree· 'Vhat he desired to do was to prevent local authoritie" from interfering unwarrantably with oycrhead wire~ put up by an electrjcal authority, but it had been shown that local authorities had no pow.-·r at all to interfere with overhead wires. They had the powcv to lodge a complaint, but. that was not the power the Minister had in Yiew when he brought in the clause. It was YGry proper that a local authority should haYe power to make a complaint, because it was on the spot and knew all the· circumstances. The Minister was going to leave the same incompetent tribunal to de~! with complaints, and he would suggest that the hon. gentleman should move the Chair· man out of the chair to give himself time to reconsider the whole position. If he

1362 Electric Light and Power [ASSEMBLY.~ Act Amendment IJill.

He regretted it very much, hut he must mo,ve that the Chairman's ruling be disagreed to.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: It was quite within the pro':inc~ of the Committee to say when any leg1slatwn should come into force. It was a. most pernicious ruling to say the Comm1ttee was not competent to insert in any Blll an amendment stating a time when the thing should come into force. If they could not do that, it would take away their rights as legislators.

The ?REMIER rose to a point of order. Accordmg to Rule 116, the objection to the Chairman's ruling must be stated in writing.

Mr. MULLAN : There would be no trouble, but the Chairman would have to give time to write it. ·while the hon. member was stating his oLjection in writing it would only Le fair to put the matter in a reason-able lig·ht. According to the ruling of the Chairman the Committee could not insert a proviso in a clause whereby its operation would be deferred for a certain time. In the Mining on Private Land Act of 1909 there were several clause>; which expressly provided that those particular clauses would not come into operation until a certain month in a certain year, while generally the Act_ came in~o force the follow_ing year. It was m operatiOn now, but certam clauses were deferred. They sought to defer the operation of the Bill until the 1st of January, 1913. A similar provision had be-en in-serted in numberous Bills passed by the Committee. He thought that the position taken up by the Chairman was absolutely unsound, and that it would lead to many complications if it were endorsed by the Committee. A question of order was in no sense a party question, and he hoped, for the sake of the honour and good name of the House, that this question would be decided on its merits, being assured that if it was, the ruling of the Chairman could by no means be sustained.

Mr. LENNON thought the Chairman had made a mistake in his ruling, and that a moment's consideration would convince him of tho fact. 'Tho ruling was that the amend-meO!t was irrelevant. The amendment was a distinct proposal that a particular part of the Bill should not come into operation until a specified date, and was therefore, in his opinion. particularly relevant.

Mr. MURPHY thought the ruling of the Chairman in this matter was wrong, because it would be absolutely absurd to debar th-e -Committel· ous the Chairman was passing judgment upon it before the hon. member who moved it had placed his reasons before the Com-mittee.

An HoNOURABLE MEMBER: Oh, no; he gave his reasons.

Mr. RYAN: He was proceeding to give his reasons.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC INSTRUCTION: No; he sat down.

Mr. RYAN: Well, his reasons were not frivolous; they were very good reasons. The reasons were that the words proposed to be repealed should be, allowed to remain in the Act until the electors of the State had an opportunity of pronouncing judgment on the amendment. With regard to the statement that the amendment was inccmsistent with the rest of the Bill, he failed to see any inconsist-ency whatever in providing that a clause should not come into operation until a certain date. It must be obvious to every member that the members of that party were seized of th., fact that an important power was to be taken away from local autho.rities-the power of bringing before a court a cause of complaint relating to public safBt.y. No rea-sons had been advanced by the Minister why such an alteration should be made in the Act. Therefore members on that side considered it necessary to take every constitutional step within their power to prevent the pro-posed repeal taking place until the ele"-tors had an opportunity of considering the matter. He trusted that the Chairman would reconsider his ruling, because it was undesirable that such a matter should be decided by a party division, when the dif-ficulty could be got over in another way.

Mr. FERRICKS: During the passage of the Health Act Amendment Bill there was a precedent set which was against the ruling which the Chairman had given. The Hon. :Mr. Davey moved an amendment providing that the clause prohibiting the use of card-board or paper in the soles of boots should not come into operation until a certain !,late, so as to allow bootmakers time to get rid

of their pres-ent stocks. The re-[11.30 p.m.] presentative of the Government

in the "Cpper House thanked the hon- gentleman for this suggegtion, and ac-cepted the amendment without division. So that if this que-.tion went to a division, members opposite would be placed in the invidious position of having to support a ruling which was in conflict with the atti-tude taken up by the representative of the Government in the other Chamber. Rather than see this go to a division, he would like the Chairman to reconsider his ruling and admit the amendment.

Electric Lig 11 atd Puu·er [5 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1363

Mr. MULLAN joined with the hon. mem· her for _Bo.wen in ·expressing the hope that the Chairman would reconsider his decision. He pointed out that it was provided that the Mining on Private Lands Act of 1909 should com_e into operation on 1st March, 1910, but sect10n 15--

'The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mom· ber has already spoken.

Mr. WINSTANLEY thought the Chair-man's ruling was entirely •vro.ng. In addition to the precedents quoted by other hon. mem-bers, there was one in connection with the Local Authorities Act passed in 1902. Whilst the bulk af the Act did not come into opera· twn tlll a later date, the valuation clause came into operation at once. That showed distinctly that it was in the power of the House-a power which had been exercised over and over again-to make one section, if they chose, come into operation immediately, while the general part of the Bill did not beco.me law till a later elate. Circumstances had arisen in the past, and in all probability would arise again, when it would be wise and just for some specific parts of the Bill to come into operation at a different time to the general part of the Bill. For that reason whatever ·else might be wrong with th~ amen_dment moved by his colleague, it was certamly no.t frivolous nor inconsistent with the general practice of the House, and it wat not inconsistent with the rest of the clause.

Mr. ~ARDACRE. th_ought the ruling of the Chairman was entirely wrong, and in proof of that he would point out that a sil_llilar ?Ccasion arose in dealing with the RI_ghts 111 Water and ·water Conservation Bi!l •. in which there_ wa~ a clause giving the Mmister, whenever m his opinion water from an ar~sian well was being wa ted, power to close It down. After a long discussion there was a proviso added that it would not be interfered with, provided that the section should no.t come into operation until ten years after the commencement of the Act. Therefore, an amendment limitin~r the time when a particular clause of a 'Bill could come into operation was not out of order as being against the practice of the House. and no new Standing Order has been brought in to alter that practice. As to the point that it was frivolous, he contended that the dis. cussion was not frivolous or inconsistent with the previous part of the clause. Sufficient argument had been adduced to show that they should hesitate befor.e bringing this pro-vision of the clause into operation. It was also a fair thing that it should not come into operation until the general election had occurred. giving the electors an opportunity of consid€ring the matter. It would be uri-fortunate if the Committee by a party vote were to limit the rights of the Committee to make such an amendment, and for that reason he hoped the ruling would be with--drawn.

Mr. McLACHLAN trusted that the Chair-man would withdraw his ruling, because if a division was taken it would be on party lines. He felt co.nfident that the majority of the members on the other side, on giving· the matter consideration, would be satisfied that the House should have the right to say at what particular tinie a.ny clause should come into operation. They had precedents with-out number in the reco.rds of the House for amendments like the one before the Com-mittee. When the hon. member for Charters Towers was spealdn" he had intended to quote an Act passed recently, some of the

clauses of which were brou!ifht into operation at different times, but by reason ot 1us ha v· ing spoken before he was prevented from doing so. He was going to refer to the regulations in connection with the Mining on Private Lands Act, assented to on 29th De-cember, 1909. Section 2 said the Act wo,uld come into force in March, 1910, but section 15 provided that a portion of section 15 would not come into force until 1st September, 1910; and, further do.wn in the same section, a portion of the section which referred to the saving of certain mining rights would not come into operation until 1st January, 1911. That was legislation that had been passed as recently as 1909, where there were two parts of o.ne section that came into operation at different times. The amendment was not therefore inconsistent with the practice adopted in the House. :Neither was it frivolous, as it sought to gain the object intended by the hon. member introducing it. He hoped the Chairman would consider his ruling and withdraw it.

Mr. HAMILTON did not like to vote aljainst the Chairman's ruling, and he hoped that the Cha'rman would reconsider it, and withdraw it. Standing Order No. 257 pro-vided that any amendment could be made to a clause or other part of a Bill provided that the amendment was relevant. If, there-fore, it was relevant, it must be consistent. There was a provision in the Water Bill which provided that the section would not come into ·force for ten years. It was intro. cluced by the Government after the discussion ahout closing down artesian bor€s. There were also oth€r Acts of Parliament in which a time was stated for the Act to come into operation. It was no discredit for a Chair-man to reconsider his ruling, and withdraw it if he were wrong, as any Chairman was likely to give a wrong ruling, and he hoped the Chairman would withdraw his ruling rather than let it go to a division.

Mr. LENNON pointed out that there were other Bills where the time for the Bill to come into operation was stated. He hoped the Chairman would withdraw his ruling.

The CHAIRMAN: I have listened care· fully to the arguments of han. members, and I have decided to adhere to my ruling. The question is that my ruling be disagreed with.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: The Chairman, in ruling that the amendment was frivolous and incons;stent, was reflecting on the Opposi-tion, and they had a right to resent it. They were strongly of opinion that the amending Bill had no right to be passed by the Hous0, and they wanted to fix the time for it to come into operation, so that another amending Bill could be introduced repealing it. There was no frivolity about the amendment at all, and he was sure that the amendment would appeal to the common sense of the Committee.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS ros,, to a po.int of order. Standing Order 116 provided that-

" Wlwn the debate on the question of the Chairman's ruling exceeded thirty 1ninutes the Chairman sball be entitled to put 'the question to be decided forthwith by the Committee."

The time specified had now been exceeded, and he asked the Chairman's ruling on the point.

The CHAIRMAN: The time is up, the debate having exceeded the half-hour allowed by the Standing Order.

Hon. W.H. Barnes.]

l:3ti4 Electric Lipht und Puwer [ASSE::\lBLY.l Act Amendment Bill.

Question-That the disagreed to--put; divided:-

Chairman's ruling be and the Committee

AYF.SJ 22. Mr. Allen Mr. McLachlan

Barber Ma;.· Collins Mulcahy Coyne Mullan Ferricks Murphy Foley Nevitt Hamilton O'Sullivan Hardacre Ryan Hunter, J. M. Ryland Land Theodore Lennon Winstanley

1'cllcr8: Mr. Collins and l\l;·. Theodore.

NOES) 27. Mr. Allan :\Tr. :wacartney

Appel l\Iackintor;h Barnes, G. P. l\forgan Rarne-:, w. I-I. Paget Bouchard Petrie Brennan Philp Bridges Roberts Cribb Stevens Denham Swayne Grant Tolmie Grayson Trout Gunn \Yelsby Hodge Wienholt Hunter, D.

'l'cllcrs: ·ur. Grayson and ':\Ir. Robert·

PAIR.

Aye-Mr. Lesina. No-Mr. Thorn.

Resolved in the negative.

Mr. RYAN. With a view to extracting from the Minister his reason for introducing the clause, he proposed to move the omission on line l!l of the words " or the local author-itv."

··The PRE~HER: We have pa

Electr·ic L·gkt and P01cer '5 OcToBER._] Act A>rnnu me )It Bill. 1.365

"Provided that such repeal shall not ap~ly :to electric lines in existf'"1Ce at the date of the passing of this Act." If the only object sought to be obtained was to mako it easier for companies in the future .to carry on any lighting business they might desire, then the amendment ought to be ac-cepted as it would still leave the local authorities the power they at present possessed with regard to existing companies.

Mr. RYAN thought the amendment would .improve the clause, 'There we1e a number of lines in existence at the present time, and it was desirable that the local authorities should 'hUYC the pO\VGf to take ar]tion when they thought tho~e lines were clangorous to public safety. 'That was not, of course, all that members on that side desired, but the ~Iinister would give no_ explanation of the reason why the clause was introduced into the Bill. so that if members could not get what they wished. they must take "hat they could get. even though that was very little. It seemed to him that the clame was imerted in the Bi]] for the benefit of some private syndicate or individuaL \Vhat other reason was th0re for the provision? 'The l'\Enister gaYe no reason for it. If the local authoritv com-plained, "ho would decide the matter?- \Vhy. two justices. the very bame authority as would decide the matter if the Minister made a complaint. 'The fact of the matter was that the whole thing was going to be worked by the ·Minister. who would make what com-plaints hE' pleased, and appoint what justices he pleased. 'The Government would not move ·at ail, unless under exceptional circumstances. ·and when they did move, no doubt it would be through justices whom they considered ·favourable to their views.

Mr. RYLAND : 'fhe clause would inter-'fere with and bring existing companies under· a new Act altogether, which practi-cally amounted to repudiation, because it introduced a new set of circumstances to the pr0sent Act, but the amendment of the bon. member for Fortitude VaHey provided that thev would remain under the Local Authorities Act, as they were now. It was only new companies which would come under the amendment. Mewbers on this side were standing by invested Papital, to see that it was not disturbed : they did not want to have any hasty legislatioi-I which would have that diect. He supported the amendment, which he honed would be carried, as it would teJce the sting out of the proposed 1egislatjon.

:Y!r. FOLEY supported the amendment, which prm·ided that the Bill should not apply to lines already in existence, but only to new lines being erected. Neither the Minister nor anyone on the other side ·had shown any good reason why the clause should be passed, and they could only assun1P that there ·were certain private com--paniC'; who were waiting to instal electric Iip-hti:1g· plants in the various large towns of tiE' State, ;;tnd who wer0 anxious that ·this particular clause should be put in force ·before they brought their n pplications to the Gowrnmcnt. 'The Minister, in justice to the people, should not refuse to accept the amendment unless he gaYe some good reason why it should not be accepted. It was onlv when the electric line was danger-ous that tho local authoritv would interfere and have it removed. -

Mr. HARDACRE was surprised that the amendment was not accepted if only in the

interests of tho Brisbane people. The clause would give the Brisbane 'Tramway Company greater power than they had at present, as they could erect overhead wires wherever they liked, whether they were dangerous or not, and the local authority would not b,e able to object to it.

:Yir. J. :Yr. Hl:N'TER was surprised that the democratic Home Secretary, who was never tired of proclaiming his socialistic leanings, should oppose an amendment which embodied the principle of municipal social-ism. The Treasurer had gained his point with regard to the formation of new com-panies, so there \YUf no reason in vvanting to make the clause apply to works already established. The hon. gentleman should be wiiiing to display the same interest in safe-guarding life and limb that he had exhibited in regard to the safety of the money of his friends. He did not for a moment accuse the hon. g0ntlcman of making any profit out of tho business, but, knowing his plastic dispo"ition, considerable concessions might be secured by some of his friends, who might profit from his lack of knowledge. The late Pr0mier had given a Yaluable con-cession to tho Brisbane Electric Lighting Company. and they knew what a set-back it had gi,-en to the city of Brisbane. He did nof suppose the late Premier knew the injury he was doing in granting that concession, and probably, when he found out, he would have been prepared to do ail in his power to take it back again.

The SECRE'T.\R Y FOR PUBLIC WORKS: In justice to an absent man, don't forget that the local authorities were parties to what was done.

Mr. J. :YI. HUNTER: There was no question that local authorities were better judges of tho value of such a concession than the Minister, and they ought to be in a better position to gauge whether they could undertake the work themselves; .and, if they hat! any doubt, they could refer the question to the ratepayers, and ask them whether a concession should be granted to a company or whether they should under-take it themselves. They knew what power ful influences could be brought to bear by such companies as the EIPctric Light Com-pany and tho Tramways Company, and an injury might be done to Brisbane and othet cities by taking this power from the loca authorities.

Mr. RYLAND desired to draw attention U. the danger from the deterioration of works, and the great necessity for supervision after they be~

1366 Electric Lipht and Power ~A::iSEMllLY.] Llc' Amendment Bil.

Mr. RYLAND (continuing) said he had seen steel ropes in mines that to all appear· ances were in perfect condition, but when they were tested they were found to be almost eaten through with rust.

The bell indicated that the bon. member's further time had expired.

Mr. COLLINS rose to support the amend-ment which was moved for the purpose of prote~ting existing rights. In this country thev were very much lcehind the times so tar as municipal government \'\as concerned, and if they allowed rrivate companies to get a footing in regard to electricity. which was the coming power, they would hanchcar the progresJ of the people, and later on tlw municipalities wou:d have to. buy out these companies at an enormously enhancc_d value. The amendment was in the right clirectwn, and when the municipalities throughout Clueensland had time to consider tlw question, they would come to the conclusion that the Labo.ur party had done the right thin!\" in sticking up ·for tbeir rights~for their home rule.

Nlr. O'SL'LLIVAN supported the. ame!ld-ment because he thought it was a wrse thmg t.o preserve the right of local authorities. to supervise existing lines, instead of remov111g what little supervision there was by agree-ing to the clause wth~ut amendnre:r:t.. It was nec.e safeguarded against the onslaughts of pn· vate enterprise. There must be some v:ry strong reason for the Governmen~ forcrng the Bill through as they were dorng. He was satisfied that the discussion would :1

Eleve some man ho-n being- electrocuted. It woulrl not be a had thing i£, in addition to the Ministpr and local authorities, they gave progr0ss a'~sociations, farmers' unions, and industrial unions the power to draw the attention of the justices to the dangers of live wires. The onlv concern of syndi-cates \Vas big- dividPnds, and so long as they got dividends thev cared very little for the safety of the public.

Mr. BARBER. sup:-orted the amendment. If the clause went through as it stood, it

would l1:"C'H'nt the Bundaberg [3 a.m.] local authoriL:: from carrying

out certain "-arks for the benefit of the co1nn1unity. The;.~ \VE're against any concessions being granted to private indivi-duals with rccpect to electric light and power.

Mr. MULLAN drew attention to the state of the Committee.

The TEMPOHARY CHAIRMAN sai~ 1)-e was satisfied that there was a quorum withm the precincts of the Chamber.

Mr. MULLAN said it was an hour since the bell wau rung, and he knew of his own knowledge that several members had left the precincts since then.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN quoted the Standing Order c!' th~o su~ject of a quorum, which gave him d_Iscretwn not _to cause the bell to be rung If he was satis-fied that a quorum was p,csent within the precincts.

?vir. BAHBER continued his remarks.

Mr. M"CLLAN apain called attention to the state of the Committee.

The TK\lPOR \RY CH .URMAN called upon :\Ir. Barber to continue.

Mr. BARBER continued his remarks in su 11port of the amendment.

Mr. RYAX urged the ::Ylinister to give some reason for insisting on the clause and not acceptiPg the amendment. . He would like tho hon. gentleman to d1vulge ~he secret reason for t.hc introducti;m ~f the Bill. If Ministers continued to mamtam a. ~tubborn silence it would not tend to faCJhtate business in the future.

Mr. HARDACRE: Whatever might be said about the other amendments that had been moved, this one was perfectly reaso~able ; and he could not understand the atti-tude of the Minister.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER protested again_st the manner in which the a~guments m favour of the amendment were Ignored, and expressed the hope that the Gov~rnment would yet give the amendment favourable consideration.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN, in supporting t_he amendment, pointed out some benefiCial results of good local government, and some of the evils of inefficient local government.

[4 a.m.] Question-That t.he words proposed to be

added (Jfr . .llcLachlan's amcnclment) be so added-put.; and the Committee divided :-

AYES, 18. :\Ir. Allen

Barber Collins Coyne F'Prricks Folev Hardacre Hnntrr, J. :\1. Land

Mr. Lennon McLachlan May Mulcahy Mullan 0' Suiii van Ryan Ryland \Vinstanley

NoEs, 27. ~'lr. AIIan !\lr.

Appel Barnc

1368 Questions. =A::lS_EMBLY.J

Mr. J. M. HUNTER moved that the fol-lowing words be added to the clauoo :-

" Provided that such repeal shall not affect any lO< al authority \vhich signifies its r1eslre to retain the powers mentioned in , c~ti0n 24 of the principal _ 'ct on or before the thirtieth day of June 1 one thousand nine hundred and twelve." If that amendment was accepted by the Minister, the desire of the Townsville Coun-cil would be met, and at the same time other local authorities would be in a position to retain a small measure of the power given to them.

Mr. FOLEY, in supporting the amendment, again referred to the motion he moved at the Local Authorities' Conference, and said he felt sure that a whisper was passed round at the conference that the motion had to be passed, as he was surprised to find it passed without discussion. He failed to see how the Minister could refuse to accept the amend-ment.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC 'V"ORKS said there was not a great deal in the amendment either way; but he was prepared, assuming that the opposition to the Bill would cease, to compromise the matter by substituting "thirty-first day of March" for "thirtieth day of June."

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr. LENNON intimated, on behalf of

the Opposition, that the compromise would be accepted.

Mr. J. M. HUI'\TER, as mover of the amendment, said he was glad the Minister was prepared to accept it with the com-promise he proposed.

Amendment amended and agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

Clause 4 put and passed.

The House resumed. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN reported the Bill with an amend-ment, and the third reading was made an Order for a later hour of the day.

The House adjourned at twenty-two minutes to 5 o'clock a.m

Supply.