P R O C E E D I N G S - Tynwald · TYNWALD COURT, MONDAY, 20th JULY 2015 _____ 2 JT2015 Present:...

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings,

Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2015

T Y N W A L D C O U R T

O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L

Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

JUNIOR TYNWALD HANSARD

Douglas, Monday, 20th July 2015

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:

Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office. Supplementary material

subsequently made available following Questions for Oral Answer is published separately on the Tynwald website, www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Hansard Appendix

Volume No. JT2015

http://www.tynwald.org.im/

http://www.tynwald.org.im/Official

TYNWALD COURT, MONDAY, 20th JULY 2015

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Present:

The President of Tynwald (Hon. C M Christian)

In the Council: The Acting Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (Mr Callum Royle),

Miss L Anwar, Mr M Fleurbaay, Miss H Lobb, Miss C Maddrell, Miss A O’Boyle and Mr H Watson, with Miss A Quinn, acting Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan SHK) (Garff);

Miss R Tumelty (Glenfaba); Mr A Johnson and Mr T Gough (Ramsey);

Mr B Layton (Ayre); Miss I Callister-Wafer (Michael); Mr J Cushing (Peel); Mr H Butler, Mr W Whittle and Miss F Ferris (Onchan);

Mr L Chapman (Middle); Miss K Lamming and Miss A Thompson (Douglas North); Miss E Mason and Miss R Mellon (Douglas South);

Miss K Sharman and Mr P Smith (Douglas East); Mr J McDaid and Mr M Jones (Douglas West);

Miss E Hicks (Castletown); Miss M Dransfield (Malew and Santon); Miss A Harris, Miss I Boyles and Mr J Holmes (Rushen);

with Mr J D C King, acting Clerk of Tynwald.

In attendance: Mr M R Coleman MLC; Mr P Karran MHK; Mr L I Singer MHK; Mr C C Thomas MHK;

Hon. J P Watterson MHK; and Mr T P Wild MLC.


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Business transacted

Questions for Oral Answer ..................................................................................................... 5

1. LGBT rights – Further steps to equalise ................................................................................ 5

2. Chief Minister and Legislative Council – Election by the public ............................................ 6

3. The Island’s Budget – MHKs to propose amendments ......................................................... 7

4. Financial regulatory legislation – Potential for damaging the Island .................................... 7

5. Flat rate tax cap – Justifiability of £125,000 rate .................................................................. 9

6. Manx language and culture – Mooinjey Veggey nurseries; financial support .................... 10

7. Representing electorate needs – Opportunity to replace MHKs ........................................ 11

8. Funding of wind farms – Government plans for renewable energy sources ...................... 12

9. Key Stages 3 and 4 – Department spend per pupil ............................................................. 13

10. Investment in school buildings – Equality of provision ..................................................... 14

11. University grant system – Fairness for students ............................................................... 17

12. Disability Discrimination Act 2006 – Reason for non-implementation ............................. 19

13. Teenage mental health issues – Departmental actions .................................................... 20

14. The right to die – Personal choice ..................................................................................... 22

Questions for Written Answer .............................................................................................. 24

15. Referendum on equal marriage – Consultation of the Bishop and the public ................. 24

16. Participation in Island politics – Improvement in rates amongst 16- to 20-year-olds ...... 24

17. Small businesses – Availability of Government help ........................................................ 25

18. Provision of 4G and Wi-Fi services – Steps towards improvement .................................. 26

19. Waiting times for Mental Health Services – Potential plans for reduction ...................... 26

Order of the Day .................................................................................................................. 28

2. Government back offices – Relocation to north of Island – Motion lost ............................ 28

3. Role of the Lieutenant Governor – Abolition – Motion lost ............................................... 33

Procedural – Congratulations by the President to participants.............................................. 38

The Council withdrew. ............................................................................................................. 38

House of Keys ...................................................................................................................... 38

The House adjourned at 12.06 p.m. ............................................................................................... 38


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PAGE LEFT DELIBERATELY BLANK


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Junior Tynwald

The Court met at 10.30 a.m.

[MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair]

The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald. The President: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members. 5

Members: Moghrey mie, Madam President. The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayers. The prayer books are before you and

you are invited to respond where you see bold print. We will be taking the Lord’s Prayer in the Manx language and you have a phonetic copy, I understand, in front of you. 10

Lord Bishop.

PRAYERS The Acting Lord Bishop

Questions for Oral Answer

CABINET OFFICE

1. LGBT rights – Further steps to equalise

The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Kathryn Sharman) to ask a representative of the Cabinet Office:

What the Government has done to further equalise LGBT rights since this issue was raised at Junior Tynwald last year? The President: Please be seated, Hon. Members. We turn to the first Item on our Order Paper, the Question Paper. Now, I understand some of you have prepared your Questions by means of wishing to read

them out in their entirety, and others have prepared simply to ask if they can ask the Question 15

which is standing in their name. I am happy for you to deal with it whichever way you prefer. So we will come to Question 1. I call on the Member for Douglas East, Kathryn Sharman, to

ask a representative of the Cabinet Office, Mr Watterson, the Question standing in her name. Miss Sharman: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 20


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The President: Mr Watterson to reply. A representative of the Cabinet Office (Mr Watterson): Madam President, from the point of

view of the law of the Island the position is unchanged since last year’s sitting of Junior Tynwald. However, Hon. Members will be aware that last year the Government held a public consultation 25

on a comprehensive Equality Bill which, if enacted and brought into operation, would be a very significant step towards equal rights for LGBT persons.

Unfortunately, the completion and introduction of the Equality Bill has been delayed somewhat; but it is the Chief Minister’s view, and mine as well, that we remain strongly supportive of equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people – and also the rights 30

of people in other minority groups. The President: Do you wish to ask a supplementary question? Miss Sharman: If a couple in a gay marriage moved from the UK to the Island will the 35

Government recognise their marriage? The President: Mr Watterson to reply. Mr Watterson: My understanding is that may be covered at the moment under the Civil 40

Partnerships Act – I would need to check that – but it would not be considered marriage under the Isle of Man law.

The President: Are there any further supplementary questions? If not, we turn to Question 2.

2. Chief Minister and Legislative Council – Election by the public

The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mr Smith) to ask a representative of the Cabinet Office:

Whether (a) the Chief Minister, and (b) the Members of the Legislative Council, should be elected by the public? The President: I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Smith. 45

Mr Smith: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question written in my name. The President: Mr Watterson to reply. 50

A representative of the Cabinet Office (Mr Watterson): Thank you, Madam President. If the Chief Minister were to be given an all-Island mandate from the public, this would

essentially attach presidential status to the Chief Minister’s role. Therefore, in answer to Questions (a) and (b), the Chief Minister is of the view that the current process of elections work satisfactorily. 55

The President: Any supplementary questions?


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TREASURY

3. The Island’s Budget – MHKs to propose amendments

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Ailish Thompson) to ask a representative of Treasury:

Whether Members of the House of Keys should be able to propose amendments to the Island’s Budget rather than simply voting for or against? The President: Question 3, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Ailish Thompson. 60

Miss Thompson: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: A representative of the Treasury, Mr Thomas, to reply. 65

A representative of the Treasury (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Madam President. Members of the House of Keys who are Ministers are strongly involved in the Budget

process; non-ministerial Members might also be involved. I hope the Hon. Member would accept that it would be impractical to analyse new proposals

raised during the Budget debate – for a start, this might involve adjournment for scrutiny which 70

would put at risk the Budget timetable. Budget proposals need to be evaluated in terms of financial impact, value for money and

alignment with Government’s aims. However, Members can move amendments although this has not been common in recent years and each attempt has been unsuccessful. For instance, in 1989 a report was sought on priorities for capital spending and there were subsequent examples 75

in the following decade. These were declaratory motions but, with Treasury concurrence, an actual financial

amendment could be moved. My understanding is that Treasury concurrence does not mean that Treasury has to agree the amendment, merely to have agreed that the financial costings and estimates in it are valid. 80

Of course, the inequality of resource between Government and someone outside Government – officers, budgets, information – makes moving any amendment difficult. Most importantly, the timetable requires a significant lead time; but it is possible.

Also, note that Members can vote against items of the Budget in that there were actually 20 items voted on last year in the Budget itself. And finally, Members have the opportunity to 85

register concerns or qualify their support in their speeches. Thank you, Madam President. The President: Any supplementary questions? If not, we move to Question 4.

4. Financial regulatory legislation – Potential for damaging the Island

The Hon. Member of the Council (Henry Watson) to ask a representative of the Treasury:

Whether financial regulatory legislation such as FATCA and similar UK and EU legislation could affect or potentially damage the Isle of Man?


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The President: The Hon. Member for Garff… ah, he is sitting up here! (Laughter) 90

The Hon. Member of Council, then, Henry Watson. Mr Watson: I beg leave to ask the Question written in my name: whether financial regulatory

legislation, such the FATCA and similar UK and EU legislation, could affect or potentially damage the Isle of Man? 95

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas, to reply on behalf of Treasury. A representative of the Treasury (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Madam President; and to the

Hon. Member for asking this important Question. 100

US FATCA, similar arrangements from other nations and Common Reporting Standards are initiatives that could not be ignored without risking damaging the Isle of Man’s economy and society. I acknowledge that such agreements place substantial compliance responsibilities on business entities and residents in the Island, but it is vital that we continue to work closely with them to provide support during the transition and thereafter. Moreover, it is crucial that the 105

Island fully understands what compliance involves, not imposing too much or too little when we legislate and regulate locally.

But, Madam President, these agreements and our commitments in them are a prerequisite for the Island to continue to operate as an international business and financial centre. Being blacklisted by the international community would not only have devastating consequences for 110

our business community, but for our wider economy and entire population. So this Government remains fully committed to preserving the Island’s status as a top-class financial centre with high standards of regulation and co-operation with other nations.

Madam President, I do, however, stress two policy directions for our Government in coming years. One is that we acknowledge a new focus internationally on business erosion and profit 115

shifting – and we will respond to this appropriately, as we have done to the initiatives on information exchange. Alongside this, Hon. Members should be aware of our focus on localising business and on making international companies become more local so that the international pressure reduces.

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The President: Any supplementary questions? The Hon. Member for Douglas East. Mr Smith: May I ask… the Hon. Member talks of international businesses becoming national:

could you give us any evidence of any businesses such as this? 125

The President: Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President, for that excellent question. There are lots of businesses that are currently focusing on how they can convert. I think what

the Hon. Member is referring to is the localisation of things like the food industry and 130

localisation of building products, and localisation to take advantage of our wonderful Island for the tourist economy – and also for residents spending locally on their own holidays and leisure.

But what I am also referring to is the transformation of some international companies into local companies so that more of their substance is actually on the Island – and there are already examples of that, but I do not want to be specific at this stage. 135

Thank you, Madam President. The President: We turn then to Question 5, if there are no further supplementaries.


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5. Flat rate tax cap – Justifiability of £125,000 rate

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Tom Gough) to ask a representative of the Treasury:

Whether the flat rate tax cap at £125,000 is justifiable? The President: The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Gough. 140

Mr Gough: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: A representative of the Treasury, Mr Thomas, to reply. 145

A representative of the Treasury (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Madam President. I am feeling some empathy for Mr Teare with all these excellent questions coming at me

quickfire from the floor! Sixty-five individuals have made five-year tax cap elections since this regime was introduced

in the 2014-15 tax year, giving direct tax revenue of approximately £39 million over five years. 150

Treasury and Economic Development have estimated that these individuals have secured over 1,400 jobs on the Island, resulting in £17.8 million of Income Tax and National Insurance receipts per annum, which means a total annual public revenue benefit of £25.6 million. And these figures do not take into account the wider economic benefits probably derived from local spend.

The tax cap, alongside the zero-10 tax regime, has been an important plank in Treasury 155

taxation policy for a decade. In fact, for half a century this type of policy has been core to the Isle of Man Government's approach to economic development ever since the abolition of Income Tax surcharge. However, Government’s 2013-16 Tax Strategy needs to be rolled forward – or amended slightly in coming years – and thus officers are reviewing and evaluating all tax policies as they did back in 2012. Growth has to be useful so that Government gets its share and people 160

have money in their back pockets. There is much independent expertise out there and officers are currently investigating how

this can be harnessed for the good of our nation. Current thinking is that if the tax cap were to be removed our tax yield would reduce. Wealthy individuals always have the option to relocate somewhere else. Moreover we have to remember, Hon. Members, that over 2,400 additional 165

individuals with income of at least £30,000 would be needed to generate the equivalent tax revenue of our current tax-cappers.

In summary, Madam President and Hon. Members, tax efficiency, competitiveness and fairness are all important. I would encourage all Hon. Members in this Court – and experts and interested parties outside this Hon. Court – to come forward in the coming months to make sure 170

the review of our current taxation strategy is comprehensive and balanced. The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Harris. Miss Harris: Does the Treasury Minister feel the MHKs’ stance on non-domiciled persons 175

represents an opportunity to the Island? The President: Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. 180

Always throughout the Isle of Man’s history, developments across – particularly in the United Kingdom – have been important for us. Certainly the ‘non-dom’ changes announced in this year's Budget will provide an opportunity – but also threats – and that is one of the issues that officers are currently reviewing for the Department.


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The President: Any further supplementaries? 185

We move then to Question 6.

CABINET OFFICE

6. Manx language and culture – Mooinjey Veggey nurseries; financial support

The Hon. Member for Michael (Isla Callister-Wafer) to ask the representative of the Cabinet Office:

Whether the recent closure of the Mooinjey Veggey nurseries was due to funding issues; what the Government is doing to ensure that continuation of provision for the Manx language; and what other financial assistance and support is given to Manx culture? The President: I call the Hon. Member for Michael, Miss Isla Callister-Wafer. Miss Callister-Wafer: Gura mie ayd, son yn caa shoh. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 190

The President: A representative of the Cabinet Office, Mr Singer, to reply. A representative of the Cabinet Office (Mr Singer): Thank you, Madam President; and can I

thank the Hon. Member for her Question. 195

Can I take the second part of the Question first, the support given to Manx culture? The advisory teacher for the Manx curriculum has been in post at the Department for six

years. She works with primary and secondary schools to help staff teach about their local history, heritage and culture. Through the advisory teacher for the Manx curriculum, organisations such as Manx National Heritage and Culture Vannin work closely with the 200

Department to provide workshops, videos, books, CDs, concerts and much more – all of which promote our Manx culture within schools.

The Department also funds the secondment of four teachers to Manx National Heritage who assist with the provision and planning of educational workshops. Island teachers are given free access to Manx National Heritage sites to undertake planning and pre-site visits. Training and 205

professional development activities – including twilights, secondary subject network meetings, sessions for staff new to the Island and regular staff meetings – are provided to all schools, and online resources are kept up-to-date by the advisory teacher.

The history, geography and art curriculums have all been updated to reflect Manx content and the music curriculum is currently being developed. The Department runs the annual Manx 210

Folk Awards for primary and secondary students – these celebrate Manx music, song, dance and recitation.

If I can refer now to the first part, Bunscoill Ghaelgagh offers primary-age pupils from all over the Island an immersion language education through the medium of Manx Gaelic. There are 70 pupils on roll at the school and this has been consistent for the last three years. Numbers are 215

predicted to remain constant for the foreseeable future. Links are made with the wider Gaelic-speaking community through Manx-speaking volunteers who support in school.

The school enjoys links with the Gaelic educators from other Celtic countries and maintains a high media profile due to the contribution made to language revival. And on a personal note, can I say when I made my visit to that school I was very impressed, not only with the Manx 220

content but with the overall education standard.


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In relation to Mooinjey Veggey nurseries, there will be one Mooinjey Veggey nursery operating at Ballasalla School from September 2015. As a commercial organisation Mooinjey Veggey falls outside the responsibilities of the Department of Education and Children so, as such, we are not able to comment on its operation, other than it was a business decision not to 225

apply for new contracts. Thank you, Madam President. The President: Any supplementary questions? We have a slight hiatus with our Question

Paper. 230

The Clerk: It is Mr Cushing. The President: It is? Right, he is not the Member for Middle, then.

7. Representing electorate needs – Opportunity to replace MHKs

The Hon. Member for Peel (Joshua Cushing) to ask a representative of the Cabinet Office:

Whether the Manx electorate would be better served if the electorate were provided with the opportunity to replace an MHK if they judged that he or she was no longer representing their needs or those of the Isle of Man? The President: Question 7, the Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Cushing. 235

Mr Cushing: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The representative of the Cabinet Office, Mr Singer, to reply. 240

A representative of the Cabinet Office (Mr Singer): Thank you, Madam President. There is no Government policy on this matter. As Hon. Members are aware, a House of Keys

general election is held every five years in accordance with the Representation of the People Act 1995. Registered voters are encouraged to take part in the democratic process by voting in the House of Keys general election. 245

Should the Manx electorate consider that their elected Member of the House of Keys does not represent their needs, they can choose whether or not to vote for that Member at the next general election, should the elected Member seek to retain their seat.

However, it should be noted that certain proportional safeguards already exist within the current legislation, which does allow for a seat of a Member of the House of Keys to be declared 250

vacant under certain conditions. It is therefore not the case that once an MHK is elected they cannot be removed from their seat under any circumstances.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: Any supplementary questions? We turn to Question 8. 255


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8. Funding of wind farms – Government plans for renewable energy sources

The Hon. Member for Middle (Lee Chapman) to ask a representative of the Cabinet Office:

Whether the UK has stopped funding land-based wind farms, what plans the Isle of Man Government has to develop renewable energy sources and when they will be implemented? The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Chapman. Mr Chapman: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 260

The President: The representative of the Cabinet Office, Mr Singer, to reply. A representative of the Cabinet Office (Mr Singer): I am getting very busy, Madam President.

I thank the Hon. Member for the Question. On 18th June this year the UK government announced that it would end subsidies for 265

onshore wind farms from 1st April 2016, as there are enough subsidised projects in the pipeline for them to meet their renewable energy commitments. Public subsidies were only ever intended to help kick-start the industry.

In recent years the Isle of Man Government has invested heavily in a natural gas network and combined cycle gas turbine power plant at Pulrose which allows us to produce electricity with 270

lower carbon emissions than that of our neighbours in the UK, despite not having significant numbers of renewable devices, such as wind turbines, connected to our electricity network.

Unlike the UK, we also have ample generation capacity to meet our needs and so it is not felt necessary at present to subsidise renewable electricity.

We are, however, committed to reducing emissions from electricity generation on the Island 275

to near zero by 2050, so we have to start planning now for what will replace our power stations at the end of their useful lives. This may be achieved through any combination of: connecting new sub-sea cables to the UK, using the Island’s renewable energy sources such as biomass, wind and tidal, or carbon capture and storage.

Thank you, Madam President. 280

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Smith. Mr Smith: Is the Hon. Member aware that the IPCC report, which is the Intergovernmental

Panel on Climate Change, concluded that the use of wind farms or any action to combat climate 285

change would not have any positive effect for hundreds, if not thousands, of years? Surely it would be more financially beneficial if the Manx Government were to spend money

on protecting the promenades of the Isle of Man in the case of rising sea levels, for example, so that businesses on the front can still carry on as usual?

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The President: Mr Singer to reply. Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. I think there are many opposing views on global warming… whether in fact it is manufactured

in order to help business, or whether in fact it is a phenomenon. 295

I can remember back well before you were born, but probably about 25 or 30 years ago, the hot topic was that we were going into another Ice Age. So, who knows? We have so-called experts and we have to make a judgement on which of them are right. We will have to wait and see… for example, apparently the warmth of the seas has not been increasing over the last few years as much as it was doing. 300


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So I think the Hon. Member is right and we have to look at a way that we can protect our Island. I think that the Isle of Man is a tiny spot in the world and okay, let's make our contribution, but I think that contribution has got to be a help to the Island and I am not sure how much contribution we can make to the rest of the world. And I must say that is my personal opinion. 305

EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

9. Key Stages 3 and 4 – Department spend per pupil

The Hon. Member of the Council, Helen Lobb, to ask a representative of the Department of Education and Children:

How much his Department spends per pupil at KS3 and KS4? The President: Question 9, the Hon. Member of the Council, Helen Lobb. Miss Lobb: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: A representative of the Department of Education and Children, Mr Wild, to 310

reply.

A representative of the Department of Education and Children (Mr Wild): Thank you,

Madam President; and thank you to my hon. colleague for the Question. The direct expenditure by the Department of Education and Children on secondary education 315

in financial year 2014-15 amounted to almost £25 million. This is known as the ‘revenue budget’ and does not include expenditure on loan charges linked to capital – that is building – projects, or to central services provided for the secondary schools.

This expenditure was allocated between the five secondary schools in part based on pupil numbers, but also taking into account a range of factors such as split sites, variable costs linked 320

to building age, and changing school size. When the budget total is allocated to each school it is not broken down into an allocation for

each key stage. When schools receive notification of their total and set their budgets, they work under an extensive range of budget headings such as teaching staff, support staff, heating and lighting, or books and materials; but the schools do not normally allocate a proportion of the 325

budget under key stage headings. Sadly, it is therefore not possible to identify the exact sums spent on the pupils in Key Stage 3

and Key Stage 4. The nearest information available would be the amount of revenue spending in secondary schools on a pupil basis.

In September 2014, the total school roll across the five secondary schools was over 5,400 330

including Key Stage 3, Key Stage 4 and sixth forms. The expenditure on this basis was approximately £4,600 per pupil.

If the additional services provided centrally by the Department of Education and Children for secondary schools are added to the revenue expenditure, this figure rises to £5,200 per student.

It should be noted that this figure does not include loan charges on capital spending and does 335

not include expenditure by other Government Departments, such as Infrastructure on caretaking and maintenance, and Health and Social Care on the school meals service.

Thank you, Madam President.


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10. Investment in school buildings – Equality of provision

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Adele Harris) to ask a representative of the Department of Education and Children:

Regardless of where a student goes to school in the Isle of Man, whether they should expect the same quality of provision in terms of investment in buildings and classrooms? The President: Question 10, the Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Harris. 340

Miss Harris: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Member for the Department of Education and Children to reply. Mr Wild. 345

A representative of the Department of Education and Children (Mr Wild): Thank you, Madam President; and thank you for the Question.

The level of investment at a school property is prioritised on: capacity needs – do we need more accommodation to meet a rising roll of pupils; suitability issues – for example, are the facilities fit for the changing educational needs; and building condition matters – are the 350

structure and the fabric of the building in need of maintenance or replacement? Clearly, the level of investment and what works can progress also depends on budget

availability, an ever-dominant factor – and my colleagues in Treasury will be fully aware of this in these challenging financial times.

Within the Department’s property portfolio we have buildings of a very varied type and age, 355

from Victorian schools constructed in the late 1800s, through to St Ninian’s Lower School at Bemahague which opened in 2012; and inevitably the nature and quality of the accommodation varies from site to site.

Clearly, it is not possible to replace our entire portfolio at a stroke with new 21st century, fit-for-purpose facilities across the Island. What we must do is progressively improve our facilities 360

on a year-by-year basis. We must continue to seek to raise the bar in terms of the accommodation we are providing and quality of the learning experience, through continuing to promote sustained and appropriate levels of capital and revenue investment.

Our Henry Bloom Noble project is an example of where, next summer, we will be able to replace the time-expired Victorian Fairfield and Ballacloan buildings – which have served the 365

Department well – with modern facilities on the old Noble’s Hospital site. Thank you, Madam President. The President: Supplementary question. 370

Miss Harris: Is it right that Castle Rushen High School has had just over £470,000 of major capital investment, representing only 0.79% of the 11-year capital spend?

How do you feel this will impact the education of the children who are going to a school where there are leaking ceilings?

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Two Members: Hear, hear. The President: Member to reply. Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. 380


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I perhaps anticipated that question, because it is a well-known fact that there have been relatively low levels of investment at Castle Rushen High School compared to the other secondary schools on the Island over recent years.

This is known to the Department and accepted by the Department, and the Department continues to pursue the case for significant further investment in the school. What is important 385

is that the correct decision is made on the nature of this investment – an appropriate decision for future generations who will be attending the school. At the same time we must continue with our ongoing maintenance and refurbishment programme. We have laboratory and changing room refurbishment schemes this year, progressing over the summer, to improve facilities for the existing students and staff. 390

I, myself – as a Member of the Department – and my other political colleagues and the Minister, are all fully aware and we have all visited in our own individual capacities.

Thank you. The President: Any further supplementaries? Miss Harris. 395

Miss Harris: What are you actually going to do? (Laughter) The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Wild. 400

Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. (Interjection and laughter) I think, speaking from my own perspective, that you have two options: one, you either look

to obtain Treasury funding – and that is within what we call the ‘Pink Book’ – and look to try and complete a project over a period of time, and that will be medium- to long-term. That is a fact of life because… and I forget the exact figure, but Lower St. Ninian’s was around about £36 million. 405

But certainly if you are talking about a new school, you are talking somewhere in the region of £20 million to £30 million – and at the present state of time that, to me, is not practical.

My own short-term tactical solution would be to do a refurbishment at a much lower cost that will create a better environment for the students within the school, and allow a bridging period to enable the economy to recover so that the proper spend can deliver the proper 410

outcome. I came into this parliament from outside industry and I came from a very dated building; and

my successor proved that if you spend a certain, relatively substantial, amount on an old building it can be made fit for purpose by… even simply if the carpets were replaced in Castle Rushen, all the tiles went through and it had a nice modern colour scheme. 415

So there are ways that you can actually improve the student experience in the interim. I ultimately think that you need a new school but that will take some careful financial management.

Thank you. 420

The President: Any further supplementaries? The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Holmes. Take your time. Mr Holmes: A personal query, Madam President. Is it natural for MHKs to get flustered when they are about to – 425

Mr Watterson: It is perfectly normal, I will assure of that! Absolutely normal! Mr Holmes: Thank you. Continuing from what you have been saying with Miss Harris, which is more important: Castle 430

Rushen or Douglas promenade?


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A Member: Hear, hear. A Member: Well done. 435

The President: The Member for Education, Mr Wild, to reply. Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. There was a Gerry Anderson series called ‘UFO’ back in the 1960s – which I remember well 440

and most of you will not – and there was one particular programme which had the title ‘A Question of Priorities.’ It was to do with the fact that the Commander of the Earth’s Defences’ son was dying of cancer and they had to bring in a piece of medical equipment, but at the same time there was an incursion onto planet Earth and he had to make a decision – and he made a decision that the incursion was more important than his son's life. So he took a priority. 445

I think we have got to balance everything in that type of way: it is a question of real priorities. So Castle Rushen School is important to me, I have been there and people know I am actively involved through the IT Academy, and I think the school delivers excellent results given the fact that when I first came to this Island in 1976 a lot of my friends lived in Castletown and went to the school – and from what I gather it hasn’t changed! 450

We are trying our best, in terms of the Department, to balance changing facilities, toilets, the new computer room and new laboratories; but the Island has to grow its economy and to grow the economy you have to have confidence… confidence from the external world, people coming to this Island to open new businesses, invest and create new jobs – and I am afraid it is a balance. 455

I do not think there is an option between Castle Rushen High School and/or Douglas promenade. The promenade is important because the business community here – and the business community externally – needs confidence in the Isle of Man. If you come to Douglas at this point in time it is ready for a refurb – and I am afraid that is one debate; and then the second debate is to find the money to look after Castle Rushen High School. 460

Thank you. The President: Supplementary question, Mr Smith. Mr Smith: Thank you, Madam President. 465

Like the Hon. Member, I too know Gerry Anderson and there was a series – I am sure he is well aware – called ‘Thunderbirds’. I remember a television programme when I was very small where ‘Thunderbird 2’ had to make a decision between saving an individual and saving a group of people.

I cannot remember the outcome… (Laughter) 470

But I would ask the Hon. Member how does he decide between two schools? For example, Castle Rushen, I know, is in need of dire investment, but St Ninian's still has classrooms that have cracks in the walls and have damp.

So how does the Hon. Member choose between two schools? 475

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Wild. Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. (Interjections) The President: I am pleased to see you are keeping him on his toes! (Laughter) 480

Mr Wild: Yes, and I must admit I was quietly sitting having my breakfast this morning, when

the Minister phoned me and said he could not make it and would I mind stepping in! (Laughter) And there must be some sort of moral to that enthusiasm.


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How do you judge between one thing and the other? It is a question of spend: if by leaving 485

something, the spend will increase to a certain level, rather than spend now to maintain a structure. It is a balance.

There is an Estates Department within the Department of Education run very ably by a colleague and they make those decisions and make recommendations to the political membership and the Minister, and the actual Department itself. It is very difficult to balance 490

where you spend; in my view it is down to basics and at the moment, from a Castle Rushen High School perspective, it is down to basics.

I did go down after the speech my hon. colleague for Malew and Santon gave, when he referred to pupils and students sitting in duffel coats following… I think the windows were broken, weren’t they, so they had leakage…? And yes, to me that is a priority, but cracks in walls 495

are not; they are a nice not to have, but your priority is maintaining the fabric and creating the environment.

So they are very difficult decisions to make when there is very little money. But it is a bit like a battalion of an army: every part of that battalion has its own goal, and it has to go for that goal, and it should not be distracted by other goals. So at the moment Economic Development 500

has a goal and that is the regeneration of our towns, our villages, Douglas our capital, the retail strategy and inward investment. And there is money allocated to that, and I am afraid we go in that direction and spend that money.

In the same way, the Department of Education has got its own budget and it has to make decisions about whether it spends it… I don’t know, on the new school, on the old Noble’s 505

Hospital site – or it spends it on Castle Rushen High School. These are difficult decisions. The problem is the answer is probably that you do need a new school at Castle Rushen but it is how achievable that is given the present financial constraints, over what timescale and therefore do you have to put a fix in place?


11. University grant system – Fairness for students

The Hon. Member for Malew and Santon (Molly Dransfield) to ask a representative of the Department of Education and Children:

Whether the Isle of Man university grant system is fair? The President: We will move on to the next Question in order that we can try and get

through them all in the time available, but I do thank you for asking supplementaries and I commend the young man from Rushen for persevering.

Question 11, the Member for Malew and Santon, Miss Molly Dransfield. 515

Miss Dransfield: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Member for the Department of Education and Children, Mr Wild, to reply. A representative of the Department of Education and Children (Mr Wild): Thank you, 520

Madam President. I will just sort my papers out… The President: Perhaps we could keep the replies fairly succinct? (Laughter)

525


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18 JT2015

Mr Wild: Thank you! (Laughter) The Department of Education and Children provides financial support for Isle of Man

students undertaking higher education courses within the Island, the United Kingdom or overseas.

This support is provided under the Student Awards Regulations and is aimed at providing 530

access to higher education for all students, regardless of income or background. However, the Department must operate within budget, and certain eligibility criteria are applied to ensure that support is provided where it is most needed and most effective. Specifically, support is limited to students who are ordinarily resident in the Isle of Man, have previously attained a required level of academic achievement, are undertaking an approved course and are within 535

designated age limits. Grants are available to assist with the substantial part of the cost of tuition fees and, for

families on lower incomes, to assist with the student’s living costs whilst at university. All students studying off-Island are required to make a £2,500 contribution towards their

annual tuition fees, for which the Department offers a loan facility. Families with incomes in 540

excess of £100,000 per annum are required to make an additional contribution towards tuition fees, up to a maximum of £6,500.

The level of support provided by the Department compares very favourably with that available in the United Kingdom and, whilst restrictions do apply, the regulations are administered in a fair manner where students are treated without favouritism or discrimination. 545

Thank you, Madam President. The President: Any supplementary questions? The Hon. Member for Douglas East. 550

Miss Sharman: Does the Minister not agree that the system is unfair as it does not take into account the number of children in each family?

The President: The Member to reply. 555

Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President, I shall try to be succinct. No! (Laughter) Thank you. The President: Any further supplementaries? 560

Miss Sharman: Does the Minister not agree that bigger grants should be given in order to

encourage university education rather than discourage? The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Wild, to reply. 565

Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. It is a balance, again, in life and in my view I think if you go to university or college you ought

to have a very firm direction. We all have different views on this – to me it is all about CV, CV, CV. You really ought to think, ‘Where do I want to be in 10 years’ time?’ 570

You ought to have a game plan that builds up in terms of experience – work experience or whatever – and qualifications, and working in the community such as charitable work. I think at the moment the Isle of Man is trying its best in terms of protecting students going to mainly the United Kingdom – and it hits Liverpool, and works outwards in that direction. In my view this level of support is fair and adequate. As we have said in the Department it is open to annual 575

review and we obviously take into account the views of parents, teachers and students alike. Thank you.


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The President: Supplementary, Mr Smith. Mr Smith: Thank you, Madam President. 580

What is the Department doing to actually entice graduates back to the Island? The President: It is a little indirectly connected with the Question but, Hon. Member, you

may reply. 585

Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. It is a good question and a difficult one to answer, because a lot of graduates do not want to

come back to the Isle of Man straightaway – some do. If you take my own particular circumstances, my son is a dentist in Liverpool and he would like to come back but at this point in time: (a) he cannot because there is no foundation training, and (b) he wants some experience 590

working within a national – in a United Kingdom sense – dental hospital for experience to bring back onto the Island when he is ready. My daughter, on the other hand, has come straight back and she is working in the corporate services providers’ market.

The Vice-Dean of Manchester University said to me that the best thing you can ever do for a student is to bring them back for their first year of work, and that hooks that individual to where 595

they came from; and they will probably go back off-Island – but they have got the hook and they come back.

So you can perhaps try and encourage… and perhaps through the ICT schemes and the Academy, and the fact that an individual knows they can come back to the Island to work within a company, they will come back. And then, maybe after two or three years they will go back to 600

somewhere in the world – but then eventually come back here. It is a 50-50 balance because in reality we are bringing in graduates from the United Kingdom system, or the international system, and Manx graduates are working around the world.

So it is a balance, but I do agree if a Manx graduate wants to come back we should try our best to help them. 605

Thank you.

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

12. Disability Discrimination Act 2006 – Reason for non-implementation

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Rubee Mellon) to ask a representative of the Department of Health and Social Care:

Why the Disability Discrimination Act 2006 has not been implemented? The President: Question 12, the Hon. Member from Douglas South, Miss Rubee Mellon. Miss Mellon: Why has the Disability Discrimination Act of 2006 not yet been implemented? 610

The President: A representative of the Department of Health and Social Care, Mr Coleman, to reply.

A representative of the Department of Health and Social Care (Mr Coleman): Thank you,

Madam President; and I thank the Hon. Member for Douglas South for the Question. 615


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20 JT2015

I would refer Hon. Members to a statement made by my colleague, the former Minister for Social Care, to Tynwald Court in November 2013, highlighting the phased approach to the implementation of this important piece of legislation. I will be pleased to circulate copies of this to this Hon. Court if Madam President would allow?

As I am sure the Hon. Member understands, such an important piece of legislation cannot 620

just be implemented. A lot of work is required and while that work is taking place – which involves the collaboration of the third sector and private agencies – it is important to ensure that all businesses on the Island are able to deal with the implementation of the Act.

The Isle of Man Government has also done significant work on the Equality Bill which, when brought in, will actually revoke the Disability Discrimination Act in its entirety. Because of this, a 625

balancing act has had to take place to determine which aspects of the DDA to concentrate on and deliver, in the time available before the Equality legislation comes into force.

Unfortunately, when the Cabinet Office announced its legislation programme until the end of the current parliament, it was noted that there is a slight delay in the Equality Bill – although it is still hoped to be introduced into the Legislative Council in 2016. 630

Members will be pleased to note how topical this Question is, because there is an almost identical question which has been put down as motion 46 by the Hon. Member, Mr Thomas, asking the very same question – and I am advised that the Health and Social Care Minister will actually provide fuller details at that time.

I do not think it is right for us to pre-empt his announcement at this coming Tynwald, and 635

unfortunately that is where it really has to end. We will have to wait with anticipation the Minister of Health’s statement when he answers Mr Thomas’s motion in Tynwald.

Thank you. The President: Did you wish to ask a supplementary question – but it might be curtailed 640

because of what the Member has said? Miss Mellon: An amount of £4 million was granted from the Government to make sure

schools are more accessible; however, most schools in the Island are barely more accessible than they were before. 645

When will the Government set aside more money to ensure all schools are accessible? The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Coleman. Mr Coleman: Madam President, the allocation of the funding for these things has been 650

complicated by the fact that we have been trying to process two Acts at the same time and allocations have been reserved for that. I would suggest, again, that we wait for the Minister’s response in this coming Tynwald – which will obviously be this week.


13. Teenage mental health issues – Departmental actions

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Ellie Mason) to ask a representative of the Department of Health and Social Care:

What is being done to tackle teenage mental health issues? The President: Question 13, the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Miss Ellie Mason. 655


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Miss Mason: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: The Hon. Member for Health and Social Care, Mr Coleman, to reply. 660

A representative of the Department of Health and Social Care (Mr Coleman): Thank you, Madam President.

I’ve lost track of what Question… is it 14? The President: Mental health, Question 13. 665

Mr Coleman: Question 13? Okay. Madam President, I think if we go back to the Chief Minister’s comments when we looked

into the passing of the funding for the new mental health facility, he openly said that mental health on the Island has perhaps been a little behind in the funding with reference to mental 670

health – and, also, versus other priorities within the system. In relation to Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services, the Department of Health and

Social Care currently operates a service that offers assessment and treatment interventions on a daily basis – but currently this does not have an out-of-hours service.

During the period January to June 2015 extensive analysis and planning for Child and 675

Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS) has taken place to improve the existing services. This includes an interim provision from September 2015 for 24/7 on-call cover from qualified CAMHS staff, who will also have access to Health Care Assistant cover should a child be admitted into a bed in Noble’s Hospital. On admission, the CAMHS team will activate a wrap-around service that ensures the child receives the right care and treatment whilst occupying a general 680

medical bed. In the longer term, there is an option to offer the positioning of four dedicated CAMHS beds

on the Island, to reduce the need to send children with mental health problems to an off-Island placement. They will be assessed and treated where they can access their families – and their families can access them. Both of these options require initial funding but in the longer term this 685

will reduce the need for expensive off-Island placements. At the moment the current waiting times for children accessing support for mental health

issues are as follows: the waiting times for generic referrals currently stands at eight weeks, and between five and six months for neurodevelopment disorders and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. All referrals are prioritised based upon clinical need, risk and presentation. CAMHS also 690

operates a daily duty system to prioritise some referrals based upon a comprehensive risk assessment.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Peel. 695

Mr Cushing: Two months ago my younger brother passed away, and I am now a member of

CAMHS, as you say. I visit there every other week and it is a fantastic organisation – and without it I would not be standing here today.

As I visit there every two weeks I notice that it is tucked away behind Noble’s Hospital and it 700

is a very small building. Why isn’t there enough money and funding into it to expand and make it better – as it has done me so much good? It needs to be bigger and better and have more people, because without it I would not be here today.

Thank you. 705

The President: Hon. Members, I am sure we would wish to express our condolences to the Hon. Member. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) (Mr Cushing: Thank you.)

I invite the Member to reply.


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Mr Coleman: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Hon. Member for Peel for his comments – they reflect my own views completely. 710

When we had the Scottish inspection to do with children, it recommended that we had an additional five CAMHS clinicians appointed. We also had another inspection done by a lady from the UK which actually confirmed the estimate of five. We have just got approval for three.

At the moment CAMHS is looking after 533 children, and the number of people that the Mental Health Service is looking after is 3,000 – just under 3% of the population. These are 715

current cases and these people may be accessing one or more of the services within the Mental Health Service.

Trust me, we are trying to get there but we are starting a little bit from behind the eight ball – but we are trying desperately to get there, and we are getting some additional funding coming through to pump prime certain initiatives. But rest assured, we are trying to get there. 720


14. The right to die – Personal choice

The Hon. Member for Castletown (Evie Hicks) to ask a representative of the Department of Health and Social Care:

Whether people should be given a choice about how they want to die? The President: Question 14, the Hon. Member for Castletown, Miss Evie Hicks. Miss Hicks: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 725

The President: The representative of the Department of Health and Social Care, Mr Coleman, to reply.

A representative of the Department of Health and Social Care (Mr Coleman): Thank you,

Madam President. 730

People have a fundamental right to self-determination. We all want our death to be a ‘good’ death with dignity, compassion, comfort and support. Most people die a natural death, and the Department’s services do their best to allow them to do this in the manner they prefer. We recognise that we do not always achieve that, and continue to work to improve things to allow people to have a good death. 735

Those choosing to end their own life may find life intolerable due to physical, psychological or social reasons. Society's attitude to suicide seems to vary, dependent upon which of those underlines this decision, with many expressing support for those with life-limiting physical problems who take this step.

One has to remember that it is only within the last 60 years that if you attempted suicide and 740

failed, you would actually be prosecuted – it was a crime. We have come a long way with reference to the discussion about ending your own life. However, there is an awful lot of controversy around those who may have the mental capacity to end their life, but not the physical capacity to do so.

While suicide is illegal [sic] now, assisting a suicide for a number of reasons is illegal. Clearly, 745

some think clinical professionals should be in a position to assist in such cases, as is the case in some other jurisdictions, notably Switzerland and some other European countries.


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Therefore, as a society, we must make the decision whether assisting suicide in appropriate circumstances with appropriate safeguards, is something we wish to decriminalise. This is a matter for wide-ranging debate throughout our Island and for Tynwald to decide. 750

Only once that concept has been agreed can the Department consider how to implement it. This is an issue not just for the health professionals, this is an issue that affects the Isle of Man society and they must decide what they wish to be acceptable.


The President: The Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Cushing. Mr Cushing: My brother was the subject of suicide. Do you think it is fair to say he broke the

law, a 14-year-old boy? 760

Mr Coleman: Madam President, no I do not. But what I said was that the law was changed about 50 to 60 years ago; and the reason the law was like that comes from the 1800s when, if you took your own life and you were a male, potentially you could not serve in the military at that time.

No, I do not think it is right that a person who attempted suicide would be prosecuted, I think 765

it is totally wrong, then and now. The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Michael. Miss Callister-Wafer: When you said that it is an issue affecting the citizens of the Isle of 770

Man, would you not consider, then, putting it to the public to decide, say in a referendum? The President: The Hon. Member. Mr Coleman: This is not really my departmental responsibility, but speaking as a human 775

being I think that would be the most suitable way to go. The President: Now, Hon. Members, I am conscious that we have got an interest in this but

we also have a timetable and I will call a halt to Questions at this point. The remaining Questions, unless we come to them later depending on how well our debates go, will be for 780

Written Answer.


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24 JT2015

Questions for Written Answer

CABINET OFFICE

15. Referendum on equal marriage – Consultation of the Bishop and the public

The Hon. Member for Glenfaba (Rachel Tumelty) to ask a representative of the Cabinet Office:

What plans the Government has to hold a referendum on equal marriage, whether the Bishop has already been consulted and what plans there are to consult the public? A representative of the Cabinet Office: The Council of Ministers has not yet considered the

issue of equal marriage and the Government currently has no plans to hold a referendum or to formally consult the Bishop or the public on this issue. 785

The Government set out its legislative priorities for the coming year at the June 2015 sitting of Tynwald and at present this does not include provision for the introduction of equal marriage rights.

EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

16. Participation in Island politics – Improvement in rates amongst 16- to 20-year-olds

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Kate Lamming) to ask a representative of the Department of Education and Children:

What his Department is doing to improve participation rates in Island politics amongst the 16-20 age group, and what plans the Department has to increase the level of citizenship education and the chance to learn about Island politics? A representative of the Department of Education and Children: Under the Curriculum Order,

linked to the 2001 Education Act: ‘all teaching [in the Island’s primary and secondary schools] 790

shall… contribute to their education in the field of… citizenship’. This involves a great deal more than what we might consider when we think of ‘politics’.

Citizenship education includes human rights, justice, cultural diversity, the role of the media, global interdependence and numerous other areas, and is taught across the curriculum in English, History, Geography, RE, foreign languages and other timetabled subjects, as well as 795

through assemblies and the ethos of the school. The Department provides a programme of study for citizenship in Key Stages 1, 2, 3 and 4,

which expects schools also to cover the principles of democratic and parliamentary government, the key characteristics of Tynwald and the Island’s relationships with the UK, the European Union and beyond. 800

In delivering the various elements of citizenship education, schools work with many partners: the One World Centre, the United Nations Association, local companies, international charities and other non-government organisations and individuals, as well as with Members of Tynwald.

Junior Tynwald is, itself, part of the Citizenship Education Programme, raising the awareness in our sixth forms about how Tynwald works, and some of the key issues of the day. We are 805


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25 JT2015

grateful to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office for their role in this event.

Next year, 2016, is already recognised as an important year in citizenship education in the Isle of Man as it has local authority elections in April and House of Keys elections in September. When elections are topical, the Island’s schools will use the high level of public interest to 810

introduce lessons on the Island’s local and national government. Indeed, meetings have already taken place bringing various groups together to discuss the preparation of resources to support schools in doing this. A new DVD has been produced by Culture Vannin at the request of, and in consultation with, teachers leading on the Citizenship curriculum.

In closing, there is a final point that I would like to make. In a September general election, 815

even with a voting age of 16, there are not many young people in our schools with a vote. Between the Island’s sixth forms and the very small number of Year 11 pupils who will have turned 16 before the election, perhaps just 20% of the 16- to 20-year-olds eligible to vote for the first time will be in schools. But, after all, in a democracy, participation in elections must be the responsibility of the individual. 820

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

17. Small businesses – Availability of Government help

The Hon. Member of the Council, Max Fleurbaay, to ask a representative of the Department of Economic Development:

What is being done to help small businesses on the Isle of Man? A representative of the Department of Economic Development: The Department of

Economic Development recognises the important contribution small businesses make in helping to diversify and grow the Island’s economy and in creating new job opportunities. This is reflected in the Vision 2020 ‘Isle of Enterprise’ strategy. In comparison to the UK and further afield, most of our businesses across a range of sectors would be classified as small. The 825

Department has in place a broad range of relevant and targeted financial and practical support to support business’s needs.

Support is provided to individuals in the pre-startup phase. There is a ‘Safe Start’ training course specifically aimed at empowering clients to make the decision whether to quit full-time employment and create their own business. 830

Our primary scheme aimed at supporting small businesses is the Small Business Start-Up Scheme. Established in 1993 this scheme provides training, financial support in the form of a living allowance, a grant and business mentoring for 18 months. Each year this highly successful scheme trains almost 200 clients and creates between 40 and 60 new businesses.

Once established, small businesses can receive support from the Department in several 835

additional ways including interest-free green loans for energy efficiency projects, and grant support under the Business Support Scheme for improvements such as website and e-commerce projects. Finally our Financial Assistance Scheme can provide larger scale capital investment of up to 40% for eligible businesses.

In summary, Madam President, the Department offers a wide range of tried and tested 840

support for small businesses on the Isle of Man. We will continually review that support to ensure that it remains relevant.


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26 JT2015

COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

18. Provision of 4G and Wi-Fi services – Steps towards improvement

The Hon. Member of the Council, Charlie Milner, to ask a representative of the Communications Commission:

What steps are being taken to improve the provision of 4G and Wi-Fi services? A representative of the Communications Commission: The Isle of Man has been at the

forefront of mobile communications since the early days of mobile telephony. In the 1990s, the 845

Island was the first European jurisdiction with a commercial 3G network, and in 2006 Manx Telecom launched the world’s first 3.5G mobile network.1

The Communications Commission licensed Manx Telecom and Sure to provide 4G mobile services in 2013. The 4G service enables users to access mobile broadband at very high speeds, and is available to 99% of the Island’s population.2 The Isle of Man is considered to have the best 850

4G coverage in the world.3 Free Wi-Fi is available at many of the Island’s cafes, pubs and restaurants, and tourist and

entertainment venues. Free Wi-Fi is also offered at the Sea Terminal and Airport.4 This allows Isle of Man residents and visitors to conveniently access the Internet in public places. There are many locations around the Island with free Wi-Fi and the number continues to increase. 855

Links 1 http://www.whereyoucan.com/Blog/How-the-Isle-of-Man-became-a-digital-business-success-Byte-by-byte.aspx 2 https://www.manxtelecom.com/mobile/4g/4g-qas.aspx 860

3 http://www.techworld.com/news/networking/manx-telecom-hails-isle-of-man-as-country-with-best-4g-coverage-3535341/ 4 http://www.manxtelecom.com/internet/wifi.aspx. https://isleofmanhelp.sure.com/hc/en-gb/articles/200327812-Where-to-find-Sure-WiFi-hotspots

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

19. Waiting times for Mental Health Services – Potential plans for reduction

The Hon. Member for the Council, Leena Anwar, to ask a representative of the Department of Health and Social Care:

What the waiting times for Mental Health Services are for (a) prisoners and (b) the wider population, and what plans there are to reduce these? A representative of the Department of Health and Social Care: In answer to the Hon. 865

Member’s Question, it should be recognised that Mental Health Services provides a wide breadth of services from, for example, art therapy to clinical psychology, and Drug and Alcohol services to Crisis Response, with all referrals being prioritised according to the individual situation or risk.

Therefore regardless of where, and the type of service required, waiting times can and do 870

vary. In this way it is difficult to provide a definitive answer to the Question.

http://www.whereyoucan.com/Blog/How-the-Isle-of-Man-became-a-digital-business-success-Byte-by-byte.aspx

http://www.whereyoucan.com/Blog/How-the-Isle-of-Man-became-a-digital-business-success-Byte-by-byte.aspx

https://www.manxtelecom.com/mobile/4g/4g-qas.aspx

http://www.techworld.com/news/networking/manx-telecom-hails-isle-of-man-as-country-with-best-4g-coverage-3535341/

http://www.techworld.com/news/networking/manx-telecom-hails-isle-of-man-as-country-with-best-4g-coverage-3535341/

http://www.manxtelecom.com/internet/wifi.aspx

https://isleofmanhelp.sure.com/hc/en-gb/articles/200327812-Where-to-find-Sure-WiFi-hotspots


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27 JT2015

It should also be noted that there is no specialist prison mental health service, and that the Department provides mental health services to the Island population as a whole. The services accessed by the prison population are delivered through what we call an in-reach service from existing departmental resources. 875

To provide some clarity for the Hon. Member, I can state that a client who is subject to a standard referral to Mental Health Services might wait six weeks to see a psychiatrist, less than that to meet with a community mental health professional, and longer to see a psychologist or allied professional; whereas a person in crisis will be seen within 24 hours.

This compares to prison in-reach services provided by the Community Mental Health Service 880

for Adults (CMHSA) where two Community Mental Health Professionals (CMHPs) visit on separate days each week. They currently see 11 individuals from the prison population of less than 100.

The CMHSA Principal Clinical Psychologist visits the prison a half day per fortnight. A CMHSA Consultant Psychiatrist visits on an ‘as required basis’; and where there is a mental health crisis a 885

prisoner can be seen within 24 hours. The Department is currently reviewing its Mental Health and Wellbeing Strategy and this

document will provide options for different delivery models which will be designed to enhance the existing service provision, which in turn will improve access to mental health services in the Isle of Man. 890


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Order of the Day

2. Government back offices – Relocation to north of Island –

Motion lost

The Hon. Member for Ayre (Mr Bradley Layton) to move: That Junior Tynwald believes that it is time for Government back offices to be moved from Douglas and distributed to the north. The President: We turn now to the second Item on our Order Paper, and we move to the

debate promoted by the Hon. Member for Ayre. I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Bradley Layton, to move the motion standing in his name. 895

Mr Layton: I beg to move the motion to this Junior Tynwald that it is our belief that it is time for Government back offices to be moved from Douglas and distributed elsewhere around the Island.

It is currently the case that Douglas, like London, is the economic centre point of this Island and as a result of this the Government machinery is concentrated here and unfairly distributed. 900

We seek to address this imbalance by, similarly to the UK, devolving our governmental duties. Government strategy is to regenerate other areas of our Island; however, they are still failing to re-distribute their back offices to these areas which would further aid this policy.

So I ask you: is it fair that we ask some of our dedicated civil servants to commute long distances just to do their job? By moving our back offices we can reduce costs for our civil 905

servants, as they will no longer have to commute further than necessary – and by reducing travel distances we will also help the environment.

Additionally, by dispersing and redistributing back offices, congestion would be reduced. On a daily basis civil servants from across the Island experience nightmarish traffic, worsened by the existing policy of Government offices being located in one town. By distributing offices 910

elsewhere the traffic flow in and around Douglas can, and will, be reduced. This measure will increase productivity and will also increase the ease of travel within Douglas; and we, here, believe that these are very useful things for the community.

Furthermore, in Douglas, parking is in short supply and it is clear that one benefit of our proposal is to alleviate that parking pressure on our capital. By spreading jobs throughout the 915

Island we will reduce strain on the parking infrastructure and make use of the existing facilities provided in other areas. In Douglas, spaces are charged at around £6 for a single working day – and on top of that include the poor availability.

Ramsey, for example, is clearly a better alternative. All spaces in Ramsey are free and there are more than 300 available in the centre of town – and many more elsewhere. 920

Finally, by implementing our proposal we can in fact make money – which, in such economic times, has to be a welcome thing. These profits can either be large up-front, or small and forever. Properties which are currently used by Government in Douglas can be sold for around £380 per square foot then replaced in Ramsey for only £100 per square foot. Alternatively, we could rent out offices that will be emptied by our proposal for £20 per square foot per month, 925

compared with £8 in Ramsey. If we go down the selling route we can make around 300% very quickly – but only once. However, if we follow the renting strategy we can double our money every year.

Therefore, it is clear that our proposal will make money for this Government, whilst it also reduces strain on Douglas parking, along with congestion. This measure will help protect the 930


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29 JT2015

environment and stop back office staff having to travel an inordinate distance simply to do their job.

Of course I assume, and hope, that all of the representatives from the areas that stand to benefit will be voting in favour of this motion. And not only are the areas outside of Douglas standing to benefit from our measures but so will Douglas – which means that I hope and 935

believe we should all vote for this motion as it is the right thing to do. I commend the motion to this Junior Tynwald.

The President: Do we have a seconder for the motion? 940

Mr Johnson: I second the motion that Government back offices should be moved from Douglas to elsewhere round the Island. By moving back offices we can better understand the local issues and achieve a better understanding of the spread of opinions around the Island.

This redistribution will greatly aid this Island, not least by improving the economy; and it is for that reason, and those mentioned by my hon. friend, that I second the motion to this Junior 945

Tynwald. Thank you, Madam President. The President: I thank the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Johnson, for seconding the motion. Now, it is open for debate. Does anyone wish to speak in favour, or against? 950

The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Holmes. Mr Holmes: This is actually constructive criticism of what Mr Layton is proposing. To move

Government back offices from Douglas to elsewhere sounds agreeable, but it says that you plan to move them only to the north of the Island. 955

Will that not only further increase the north-south divide in this Island? The President: Any further comment? Can I just explain procedure, Hon. Members? The motion has been moved and seconded and

it is now open for you all to contribute, but the mover will reply at the very end of the debate – 960

so he can be making notes as he goes if he wants to respond to points like those which have just been made.

So if anyone else wants to put an argument for or against…? The other Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Harris. 965

Miss Harris: Douglas is a very central area where everyone can travel to reasonably, in about half an hour. For people who are coming from south and are then having to travel to the north, that could be an hour-long commute. Is that really necessary when the central location is perfectly accessible for all?

Also, maybe that would encourage people to work in areas such as those where they are not 970

having to worry about long commuting times? That in itself would increase emissions and could, in fact, cause more congestion because people are having to travel longer distances.

The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Sharman. 975

Miss Sharman: My hon. colleague mentioned the travel distance that you referred to. Surely as well, moving to the north would cause more problems. And, as you mentioned for the environment, with regard to CO2 emissions for the infrastructure side, moving to the north would not only increase the travel distance for some southern civil servants but also with regard to the infrastructure of building a new Civil Service. 980

The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Miss Mellon.


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30 JT2015

Miss Mellon: Unlike Douglas, the north of the Island’s electrics run above ground rather than below, meaning that they are easily damaged during storms, resulting in the back offices – if they were to move – losing power. This, therefore, would mean that the move would not be 985

ideal. The President: The Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Cushing. Mr Cushing: Is it practical to move all the offices elsewhere, rather than them staying in 990

Douglas? The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Sharman. Miss Sharman: Does the Hon. Member not realise that moving Civil Service offices to the 995

north, where it is away from the Legislative Buildings, could slow down the system and cause more problems than it solves?

The President: Hon. Members, there is just a point of procedure here, and that is that

normally in a debate Members can speak only once – so you tend to have to think about what 1000

you want to say, and say it. However, I will be fairly flexible today if Members want to come back with a second bite at the cherry.

Right, does anyone else wish to contribute? The Hon. Member, Mr Wild.

1005

Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. On the basis that I have not said enough today, I thought I may as well say a few more words.

(Laughter) The President: Keep it short! (Laughter) 1010

Mr Wild: I would just like to support my hon. colleague for Ayre, and also point out that in

fairness you did say that it was not specifically the north, it was across the Island. I will just make a general point from an Economic Development perspective: I am not sure

whether it is necessary for the Civil Service to be spread out far and wide, it might be a more 1015

efficient model for the Civil Service to actually be in one place. But, certainly from an Island perspective and an Economic Development perspective, we should be encouraging growth north, south, east and west.

You only have to look at Laxey, where I live, on a morning or an evening when the Mountain Road is closed, the traffic coming down from the north and going back up to the north cannot be 1020

a good economic green footprint either. So I would say it is probably a wider debate that we should encourage regional development, full stop.

Thank you, Madam President. The President: Do any other Members wish to speak? 1025

The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. Mr Watterson: Well, just with a view to taking a different angle on this, Madam President, I

think we have seen an awful lot of debate about traffic movements, emissions and things but we are missing the complete digital revolution on this Island. Shouldn’t we just be encouraging 1030

more people to work from home? Has a feasibility study really been done to say that people who work in Treasury processing

Income Tax forms couldn’t just have some of them sent up there and they could process them at home on their home computers and then bring them back?


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31 JT2015

So, there are potentially things – without having to build whole new buildings in Ramsey and 1035

Peel and Port Erin – so that we can be more inclusive as a society and people can work from home. Admittedly, they will not have the social life of the office camaraderie, it may be that their home environment is not ideal and it may be that meetings become more difficult… but maybe this is something that we really ought to look at and maybe that is something that other Hon. Members would have a view on? 1040

The President: Do any Members have a view? Yes, the Hon. Member for Ramsey. Mr Gough: Could I just point out that there is a great deal of office space within Ramsey itself 1045

– and I am sure across the Island. So it would not be necessary to build new buildings, but just make better use of the ones we have got, which would be much cheaper to buy and rent; and, as pointed out earlier, would generate revenue through renting out the existing buildings that are already used.

1050

The President: Are there any further contributions? The Hon. Member of Council. Miss Maddrell: Hon. Member, you mentioned earlier – and from our tour guides – we all

know that this has been in place since the 1800s. Is it really a Manx tradition to move it all to 1055

Ramsey when it has been in place in Douglas for many years? The President: Thank you, Miss Maddrell. Are there any further contributions on that debate? The Hon. Member for Council, Mr

Watson. 1060

Mr Watson: Surely, though, as the Isle of Man Government does need to find money

somewhere, by reducing their costs by putting back offices in Ramsey they could help find money elsewhere to invest in schools and the promenade, as has been mentioned before?

1065

The President: If no-one else wishes to speak… oh, the Hon. Member, Mr Smith. Mr Smith: Thank you, Madam President. Is it actually economically beneficial to take everything from Douglas – well, not necessarily

everything, but what you are proposing – and ‘up sticks’ to Ramsey? 1070

Surely it would be far more beneficial to keep it here and keep it the way things are? The President: I think Miss Sharman was itching to have another go… were you? No?

(Laughter) Right, I call on the mover to reply. 1075

Mr Layton: First of all I would like to – as my hon. friend did earlier – address the myth that

we have to build more space, because the fact is that there are many commercial and office space properties already listed on estate agent sites around the Island.

While the motion does say it is just to the north, we would of course be open to distributing 1080

it elsewhere – it is purely the concept of ‘out of Douglas’ to spread it around. I have to say that I believe by spreading it – and the argument has been why should we change it – I would say that is to advance the economy. Right now we have, essentially, Douglas pulling up the rest of the Island’s economy, so if we want to have a balanced economy – and to secure a recovery – we need to have all the areas of the Island pulling their weight. So by distributing these jobs around 1085

the Island we are capable of increasing the growth of the economy.


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32 JT2015

As for the time to travel from both sides: we are all aware of the congestion, not only within Douglas but also travelling to Douglas, so I would say that swapping or redistributing the places will actually reduce that, because not as many people will be converging on Douglas, rather they will be staying where they live. And of course we are not proposing to simply move everything 1090

out and shift everything to as far away as possible, we want a balanced redistribution to ensure that it has the maximum benefit possible.

While it is the case that this would be away from the Legislative Buildings here, simply by picking up their Government-issued phone they would be able to call here without any interference. So the fact that they are down the road, or that they are in the north or the south 1095

of the Island, would make no actual difference as they would simply be picking up the phone to confer about what they are doing – they are simply back offices, they are not actually going to interact with anyone, so any information needed from them would still be easily obtainable.

As for the working from home, that could be something that we might be able to look into, although I think one of the arguments has been for the decentralisation, or against it, that it 1100

would not be practical in terms of communication, so I think the working from home would only serve to exacerbate that.

Other than that… did I miss anyone? No? Okay. The President: Thank you, Hon. Member. 1105

We now proceed to a vote. The motion before the Court is that Junior Tynwald believes that it is time for Government back offices to be moved from Douglas and distributed to the north.

If I can just check with the Clerks… is it anticipated that we do an electronic vote? The normal procedure, Hon. Members, is that we do an oral vote and then if there is perhaps

a division called we will take an electronic vote. So, first of all you do not need to put your 1110

fingers on buzzers, you just have to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. I think the noes have it. A division has been called. That means we need to take an electronic vote and count

accurately, so press your buttons for yes or no.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows: In the Keys – Ayes 5, Noes 19

FOR Mr Johnson Mr Layton Mr Gough Miss Whittle Miss Thompson

AGAINST Mr Butler Mr Cushing Mr Jones Mr Smith Mr Chapman Mr Holmes Mr McDaid Miss Dransfield Miss Boyles Miss Callister-Wafer Miss Ferris Miss Harris Miss Hicks Miss Lamming Miss Mason Miss Mellon Miss Sharman Miss Tumelty The Speaker

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 5 votes for, 19 against. 1115


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33 JT2015

In the Council – Ayes 5, Noes 4

FOR The Acting Lord Bishop Mr Milner Miss Gordon Miss Lobb Mr Watson

AGAINST Mr Fleurbaay Miss Maddrell Miss Anwar Mr Thomas

The President: In the Council, 5 votes for and 4 against. There is a difference of opinion in the Branches, the motion therefore fails to carry. That is the conclusion of that motion, Hon. Members.

3. Role of the Lieutenant Governor – Abolition – Motion lost

The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mr Peter Smith) to move:

That Junior Tynwald believes that the role of the Lieutenant Governor in the Isle of Man should be abolished. The President: We move now to Item 3 on our Order Paper, the role of the Lieutenant

Governor. 1120

I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Peter Smith, to move the motion standing in his name.

Mr Smith: Thank you, Madam President. Hon. Members, this morning we are to debate whether or not the role of the Lieutenant 1125

Governor should be abolished. However, it is vital in our forthcoming deliberations to be conversant with the position and role of the Lieutenant Governor in its current format.

As we will all be aware, the Island is a Crown Dependency. Our Head of State is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Lord of Mann, and her representative on the Island is an appointed Lieutenant Governor. The position cannot simply be abolished, but current roles and 1130

responsibilities can be removed. The role of the Lieutenant Governor is currently divided into three elements. Firstly,

constitutional: the very limited powers of the Lieutenant Governor derive directly from the Crown. The purpose of the constitutional role is to maintain the legitimacy and continuity of Government, as this is the foundation of civil peace maintained by the rule of law. As such, the 1135

Lieutenant Governor appoints our first and second Deemsters, plus the Crown appointments within the Church of England. On our behalf he also makes recommendations for public honours to the Queen.

Secondly, his community role: the Lieutenant Governor and his wife are patrons of many Manx charities and support many local organisations. He is also responsible for the appointment 1140

of the captains of each of the 17 parishes on the Island. Thirdly, ceremonial: the Lieutenant Governor takes part in public ceremonies as a

representative of Her Majesty the Queen. These include duties such as presiding on Tynwald Hill during the Tynwald ceremony, attending the National Remembrance Day service and holding occasional honours investitures. He also hosts visiting ambassadors and high commissioners, in 1145

conjunction with the Island’s authorities.


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34 JT2015

Now, how some people may perceive elements of this current role brings to mind a rather unique and rarely-used word – and that word is floccinaucinihilipilification. It is derived from Latin and means the action or habit of estimating something as worthless. Some people may consider it worthless to appoint someone from the adjacent isle who may be lacking in the 1150

appreciation of the intricacies of Manx customs, culture, practices and lifestyle. As such, in their eyes, they may wish that the role be abolished. Others may wish to expound upon the worthlessness and abolition of the position in pursuit of an idealistic Manx independence.

Yet I wish to suggest that the role of the Lieutenant Governor is far from worthless. In the future it will undoubtedly be essential for maintaining the Isle of Man's unique position, 1155

prosperity, relationship and standing as an integral part of Great Britain. As the Lieutenant Governor's current role may be perceived as having minimal or irrelevant impact on the life of the Island it should be abolished, to be replaced with a new and enhanced role for our Island’s advancement.

Junior Members, my proposal for your consideration is that the current role of the Lieutenant 1160

Governor be abolished and a new and elevated, more effective, position at the heart of our governance be established. I propose that to improve the links between the British government and our Crown Dependency, to provide greater security in a fluctuating economic and socially-dividing world and enhanced communication with other islands, we should aim to develop the role of the Lieutenant Governor. To this end, we should provide a role for the Lieutenant 1165

Governor on our Legislative Council and use their skills to help further our economic independence and development.

As was once the case, a position on the Legislative Council would provide for the nation an exceptionally experienced, critical ear plus an independence to the due process of government. We would then have a Lieutenant Governor whose enhanced role had greater impact and was 1170

more focused on the welfare of the Island, its population and future generations. To be effective participants in the global economy, we should use the wealth, talent and

experience at our disposal to develop our position and standing. Every five years we are gifted a talent with a plethora of experience. We should analyse and evaluate the opportunities that this provides and then use it more judiciously and effectively to our betterment. 1175

Thank you. The President: Thank you, Hon. Member. Do we have a seconder for the motion? Miss Thompson: I move to second this motion, but wish to reserve my comments for later. 1180

The President: The motion is seconded by the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Miss

Thompson. Now, do we have any views on this motion, Hon. Members? The Hon. Member for Michael, Miss Callister-Wafer. 1185

Miss Callister-Wafer: I personally disagree with all of the roles of the Lieutenant Governor. I could maybe agree that the role at the least is ceremonial, because I understand we are a

Crown Dependency; but I disagree with the idea that he should be a Member of the Legislative Council, because I think it is important as well to establish that we are a strong nation and we 1190

have our own parliament. The Lieutenant Governor’s best interests are possibly the Queen’s best interests and, although we are a Crown Dependency, I feel that our Government should have the Isle of Man’s best interests at heart.

I do agree that it is important to maintain links with the UK, but not by allowing the Lieutenant Governor to sit on our Legislative Council. 1195

The President: Thank you. Are there any other Members?


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35 JT2015

The Hon. Member, Mr Singer. 1200

Mr Singer: Just briefly, if I may, Madam President. You are quite right that the Lieutenant Governor’s powers now are ceremonial, but it is also a

fact that in the last few years the experience of the Lieutenant Governor – whether it has been in the diplomatic or as a member of one of the Forces – has had close connections with people in the UK, and he has used that knowledge to introduce and ask questions on behalf of ourselves 1205

when perhaps we would not have been able to get those answers. So we have had a lead-in to various sectors of the UK government, etc.

Does the Hon. Member not think that over the past maybe 50 to 60 years – certainly since the war – that we have been working continually to get more and more independence; and we have probably got more independence now than many of the countries that are under the 1210

British Crown? Does he not think that it is to our advantage that we have now removed the powers of the Lieutenant Governor and that he is a ceremonial head?

We have taken away the Lieutenant Governor who was sitting in the position in which Madam President is now sitting, and who basically had control over the Isle of Man – what he said, went, basically, and now we have got our own control. But we still have the Lieutenant 1215

Governor here as a ceremonial head to meet and greet, and to represent the Isle of Man in that context.

The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Harris. 1220

Miss Harris: As the Lieutenant Governor is elected, or chosen, by the Queen, I think it is important particularly for links and communication with England that we do have them. However, as an independent Island I think it is also important that we stay true to ourselves and have our own parliament and our own Madam President – and that we do not have the Lieutenant Governor in that role like we used to. 1225

I do feel it is important that ceremonially they are here so we do maintain that communication in that sense with them, but we are still our own independent place.

The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Miss Ferris. 1230

Miss Ferris: Is the role of the Lieutenant Governor sustainable as a representative of the British monarchy, as global politics is becoming more democratic?

The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Chapman. 1235

Mr Chapman: You say you want to improve the roles of the Lieutenant Governor to drive the economy forward, but not the economy of the nation; but surely that should not be just left to one man, it should be left to the whole community?

The President: The Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Bradley Layton. 1240

Mr Layton: I fear, through his plethora of language, that I may have got slightly lost in this…

but I wonder within the motion that we are voting on to abolish the Lieutenant Governor, if we are looking for fewer ties with the Crown – as seems to be suggested by the title of the motion; or are we in fact looking for stronger ties with the Crown, as would happen through giving him 1245

the control of the Legislative Council? I wonder why, having just removed him from the Legislative Council, we are now seeking to

put him back into his old position and regress on the progress that has been made in the past years in this place. I wonder what he has to say on that? 1250


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36 JT2015

The President: Hon. Members, that is a very interesting point made by the Member for Ayre and I was going to comment at the end, but I will do it now.

Bearing in mind that the mover has spoken in favour of replacing the Lieutenant Governor with a new role, and looking at the wording on the Order Paper I have to guide you that what you are voting on is simply what is written down on the Order Paper, i.e. the abolition of the 1255

position of the Lieutenant Governor. You will not be voting to give him another role because that is not what the motion says,

although the mover talked about it. So bear that in mind when you come to your vote. Does any other Member wish to speak? The Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Cushing. 1260

Mr Cushing: I second the Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Harris, that we should keep the

Lieutenant Governor and his connections, because I do not believe that the Isle of Man could thrive on its own without the connections of the other nations of Great Britain.

1265

The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Holmes. Mr Holmes: I think we should keep the post of the Lieutenant Governor for the sake of

convenience because without him who would represent the Queen at formal occasions, such as Tynwald, our Remembrance Day service and various other whatnot that happens over here? 1270

And I said it! (Interjections) The Clerk: Madam President, I wonder if any Hon. Member might wish to consider moving an

amendment? I do not know if the Hon. Members have been briefed on the procedure for this but if, for 1275

example, you wanted to change the word ‘abolish’ to ‘modified’ then you could have a separate vote on the two proposals that have been talked about in this debate?

So I will leave that to Hon. Members and if anybody would like to move an amendment they could have one drafted –

1280

The President: The Clerk would help you to do it if you wish to do it. The Clerk: No takers? The President: Right, as there is no amendment in the offing I will call on the mover to reply, 1285

please. Mr Smith: Thank you, Madam President, and I thank all Members for their valued

contribution. I will try and address each point individually to the best that I can. What I am suggesting – 1290

and I apologise that I did not make it clear enough – is that the Lieutenant Governor sits on the Legislative Council but not in the role that he used to many years ago. Madam President presides over Tynwald – quite rightly – but what I would suggest is that the Lieutenant Governor has a place on the Legislative Council along with Her Majesty’s Attorney General and the Bishop of Sodor and Man to provide, again, that independent clarity of thought when scrutinising Bills 1295

that are brought forward from the House of Keys. So I hope that has addressed your question. As I have said, I am not suggesting to replace Madam President in the slightest. However, a

lot of people have talked about Manx independence and I would like to remind Hon. Members that the Isle of Man is a self-governing Crown Dependency, but the Crown has ultimate responsibility for its good governance. So as such I think the role of Lieutenant Governor is vital 1300

and it is vitally important.


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37 JT2015

Her Majesty’s government is responsible for the Island’s defence and international relations, but the Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom. The UK Parliament has paramount power to legislate for the Isle of Man on all matters, but it is a long-standing convention that it does not do so on domestic matters without the Island’s consent. So, I believe that it is vitally important 1305

that links with the United Kingdom be improved for the betterment of all people living on the Isle of Man.

I would like to address the Hon. Member for Ayre’s question about my plethora of language – I will quite happily go through my speech with him if he is still slightly confused. (Laughter)

But, Hon. Members, I think it is vitally important that the role of Lieutenant Governor be 1310

improved and be modified, for the betterment of the Manx people so that we can use him effectively. Many Lieutenant Governors have a vast wealth of experience and knowledge through years of diplomacy, or through senior positions in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, and as such we should use that to our advantage – we should not allow him to purely represent Her Majesty, but actually have a part in our Government and sit on the Legislative Council, and 1315

provide a critical independent clarity of thought when criticising and scrutinising Bills and legislation that are passed through the House of Keys .

I thank Hon. Members for all their points; and thank you very much, Madam President. The President: Thank you, Hon. Member. 1320

We will take a vote now. The motion before the Court is that Junior Tynwald believes that the role of the Lieutenant Governor in the Isle of Man should be abolished.

Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows: In the Keys – Ayes 5, Noes 19

FOR Mr Johnson Miss Callister-Wafer Miss Ferris Miss Lamming Miss Mellon

AGAINST Mr Butler Mr Cushing Mr Jones Mr Layton Mr Smith Mr Chapman Mr Gough Mr Holmes Mr McDaid Miss Dransfield Miss Boyles Miss Harris Miss Hicks Miss Mason Miss Sharman Miss Tumelty Miss Whittle Miss Thompson The Speaker

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 5 votes for, 19 against.

1325


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In the Council – Ayes 1, Noes 7

FOR Mr Milner

AGAINST The Acting Lord Bishop Mr Fleurbaay Miss Maddrell Miss Anwar Miss Gordon Miss Lobb Mr Watson

The President: In the Council, 1 vote for and 7 votes against. The motion therefore fails to

carry, Hon. Members.

Procedural – Congratulations by the President to participants

The President: That concludes consideration of the business on our Order Paper. Hon. Members, I just want to congratulate everybody who has participated this morning – it

has been excellent in the way that you got going on the supplementary questions. And in terms 1330

of the two motions, I particularly want to thank the movers for the way in which they prepared and argued their cases; and in particular, what is harder is responding at the end of the debate because that is not something you can prepare for, it is something you have to do at the time.

So congratulations to everybody who has been involved, I think you have all done extraordinarily well. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) 1335

Tynwald will now adjourn and we will have some lunch. Mr Speaker, do you wish to deal with the House of Keys in the normal way? Normally, I leave

it to Mr Speaker to deal with House of Keys… We will do it in the normal way, so Council will now adjourn and leave Mr Speaker to put

before the House such business as he wishes to put before them. 1340

The Council withdrew.

House of Keys

The Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will stand adjourned until the next sitting which will take place in Junior Tynwald Court next year.

Thank you, Hon. Members.

The House adjourned at 12.06 p.m.

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