4 T128 14.12.10 - Tynwald · 2012. 5. 22. · R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L...

T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

(HANSARD)

Douglas, Tuesday, 14th December 2010

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website

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Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted upon application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.

Volume 128, No. 4

ISSN 1742-2256

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © Court of Tynwald, 2010

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 14th DECEMBER 2010

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BUSINESS TRANSACTED Page Leave of absence granted ....................................................................................................................473 Papers laid before the Court................................................................................................................473

Questions for Oral Answer 1. Island freight and passenger services – Commercial competition .......................................475 2. Isle of Man shipping firms linked to Iran – USA Treasury sanctions .................................477 5. Isle of Man property owners – Legislation re tax resident status.........................................478 6. Residential development in Kirk Michael – Roadway through Primary School playing field ...................................................................479 7. Supply teachers – Reducing level of remuneration...............................................................481

Bills for signature ................................................................................................................................482 8. Special Needs/Nurture Unit, Queen Elizabeth II High School – Savings from staff cuts..482 13. Breast surgery in UK or Isle of Man – Cost effectiveness ...................................................484 14. Complementary and alternative therapies – Expenditure; medical practitioners employed .......................................................................485 18. Maintenance of DHA transmitters – Manx Radio contract ..................................................486 19. Fire safety audits for public buildings – Policy.....................................................................487 20. Vehicle excise duty – Review ................................................................................................489 21. Planning applications online – Restrictions and difficulties of viewing..............................490 22. Public sector housing – Deficiency costs since 2008............................................................491 23. New build public housing – Policy to reduce energy consumption .....................................495 25. New tax on road fuel – Avoiding sharing proceeds with UK ..............................................497 26. Unmanned Aerial Vehicles – Controlling legislative framework ........................................498 31. Bus drivers – Allotted breaks; cost of empty buses ..............................................................498 33. DHA CEO post – Question not asked....................................................................................500

Questions for Written Answer 3. Silverdale car parking – Council of Ministers review of decision .......................................501 4. Isle of Man Steam Packet Company – User Agreement obligations ...................................501 9. Rio Convention on Biodiversity – Signing up by Isle of Man .............................................501 10. Coastal and intertidal zones – Designation in north of the Island........................................502 11. ASSIs in north of the Island – Reasons for designation .......................................................502 12. Nature reserves in north of the Island – Motorised vehicle events ......................................502 15. Breast cancer issues – Theatre time for breast surgeon ........................................................503 16. Breast reconstruction cost comparison – UK 2008-09; Isle of Man 2009-10 .....................503 17. Breast reconstruction surgery – Surgeon employed by DoH ...............................................504 24. Isle of Man Steam Packet Pension Scheme – Use of valuation money...............................504 27. New bus timetable – Community anger and frustration .......................................................505 28. Governor’s Hill and Willaston bus service – Re-instating original .....................................505 29. Governor’s Hill, Willaston and Anagh Coar bus service – Failure of timetabled bus .......506 30. Changes to the Island’s bus service – Negotiations with drivers .........................................506 32. Isle of Man Steam Packet Company – Possible redundancies .............................................507 34. Communications with public sector – Telephone, electronic and postal facilities .............507 35. Staff employed by regulators – Recording telephone calls ..................................................508 36. Wildlife Park – Employment management............................................................................509 37. Former DTL/new DCCL – New posts created and filled .....................................................509 38. Government Axapta computer system – Financial records for each Department...............510


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Orders of the Day 3. Progress on the Review of the Planning System – Statement by the Minister for Infrastructure ...............................................................................512 4. Housing Policy Review – Statement by the Minister for Social Care .......................................514 5. Taxation and Planning – Statement by the Minister for Economic Development....................517 6. Select Committee on the Committee System – Statement by the Chairman ............................518 7. Disability Access Works to Department Sites – Phase 2 – Expenditure approved ..................518 8. Radar Replacement Project – Expenditure approved .................................................................519

The Court adjourned at 1.03 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

9. Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority – Second Interim Report and recommendations – Amended motion carried...............................524 10. Standing Committee on Public Accounts – Media Development Fund and Public Investment in the Film Industry, 1995-2009 – Debate commenced .......................................................................................................................544

The Court adjourned at 4.53 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.22 p.m.

Announcement of Royal Assent .........................................................................................................549

Standing Committee on Public Accounts – Debate continued – Report received and recommendations 2-5 and 7 approved.............................................................549

11. Tynwald Advisory Council for Disabilities – Appointment of Miss Prudence Angela Cook approved ............................................................562 12. Appointments Commission – Appointment of Mr Timothy Roy Craig approved ...................563 13. Tribunals Act 2006 – Tribunals Regulations 2010 approved.....................................................564 14. Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 – Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Fishing) Bye-Laws 2010 approved.............564 15. Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 – Sea-Fisheries (Ramsey Bay Closed Area) Bye-Laws 2010 approved.......................................566 16. Agri-Environment Scheme 2002 – Agri-Environment Scheme 2002 (Amendment) Scheme 2010 approved .................................567 17. Countryside Care Scheme 2009 – Countryside Care Scheme 2009 (Amendment) Scheme 2010 approved...................................568 18. Education Act 2001 – Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2010 approved ....................568 19-20. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Act 1998 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2010 approved Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2010 approved ....................................................................................................................573 21-22. Social Security Act 2000 – Welfare Reform Act 2009 (Application) Order 2010 approved Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 5) Order 2010 approved ................576 23. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Customs and Excise (Community Instrument) (Application) Order 2010 approved ...............578 24. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax (Emissions Allowances) Order 2010 approved ............................................579

The Court adjourned at 7.40 p.m.


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Present:

The President of Tynwald (The Hon. N Q Cringle, OBE)

In the Council:

The Attorney General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Mr R P Braidwood, Mr D M W Butt, Mr D A Callister, Mrs C M Christian, Mr E A Crowe,

Mr A F Downie, Mr E G Lowey and Mr J R Turner, with Mr J King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff); The Chief Minister (The Hon. J A Brown) (Castletown);

Hon. D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Hon. A V Craine and Hon. A R Bell (Ramsey); Hon. W E Teare (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Mr T Crookall (Peel);

Mr P Karran, Hon. A J Earnshaw and Mr D J Quirk (Onchan); Hon. G M Quayle (Middle); Mr J R Houghton (Douglas North);

Hon. D C Cretney and Mr W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Mr C G Corkish MBE and Hon. J P Shimmin (Douglas West);

Mr G D Cregeen (Malew and Santon); Mr J P Watterson and Hon. P A Gawne (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.


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Tynwald

The Court met at 10.30 a.m.

[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair] The Speaker: Moghrey mie. Good morning, Hon. Members. Members: Good morning, Mr Speaker. The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please be upstanding for the President of Tynwald. 5 The President: Hon. Members, I call upon the Chaplain to lead us in Prayers this morning.

PRAYERS The Chaplain of the House of Keys

Leave of absence granted The President: Hon. Members, the Lord Bishop has leave of absence this morning and, as I

understand it, Mr Malarkey has been held up somewhat – he has been delayed in Budapest. Mr Shimmin will be joining us as soon as he can later this morning. 10

Mr Gill, I understand, is not well and is unable to attend this morning. Mr Henderson likewise, is unwell Hon. Members, as is Mrs Cannell. That may make a slight difference to our running order of the Questions, Hon. Members.

Papers laid before the Court The President: We move on, and I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. 15 The Clerk: Mr President, sir, I lay before the Court the items set out in Item 1 of the Order

Paper:

Tribunals Act 2006 Tribunals Regulations 2010 [SD 998/10]

Sea-Fisheries Act 1971

Sea-Fisheries (Scallop Fishing) Bye-Laws 2010 [SD 766/10] Sea-Fisheries (Ramsey Bay Closed Area) Bye-Laws 2010 [SD 930/10]

Agri-Environment Scheme 2002 Agri-Environment Scheme 2002 (Amendment) Scheme 2010 [GC 039/10]

Countryside Care Scheme 2009

Countryside Care Scheme 2009 (Amendment) Scheme 2010 [GC 040/10] Education Act 2001

Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2010 [SD 976/10] Social Security Act 2000

Social Security Act 1998 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2010 [SD 953/10]


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Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2010 [SD 954/10] Welfare Reform Act 2009 (Application) Order 2010 [SD 955/10] Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (No. 5) Order 2010 [SD 956/10]

Customs and Excise Act 1993

Customs and Excise (Community Instrument) (Application) Order 2010 [SD 925/10] Value Added Tax Act 1996

Value Added Tax (Emissions Allowances) Order 2010 [SD 935/10]

Reports – Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Report on the Media Development Fund and Public Investment in the Film Industry, 1995 to 2009 [PP 105/10] Second Interim Report of the Select Committee on the Manx Electricity Authority [PP 146/10]

Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper Documents subject to no procedure Online Gambling Regulation Act 2001 Online Gambling (Participants’ Money) Regulations 2010 [SD 832/10] Gambling Supervision Act 2010 Gambling Supervision (Permitted Disclosures) Order 2010 [SD 834/10] Superannuation Act 1984

Superannuation (Clerk of Tynwald’s Department) Determination (No. 2) 2010 [SD 962/10]

Companies Act 2006 Uncertified Securities Regulations 2006 (Operators) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 [SD 999/10]

Education Act 2001 School Catchment Areas Order 2010 [SD 1007/10] Value Added Tax Act 1996

Value Added Tax (Definition of Charity) (Relevant Territories) Regulations 2010 [SD 1008/10]

Census Act 1929 Census (Amendment) Order 2010 [SD 1009/10] Bank Holidays Act 1989 Bank Holiday (Royal Wedding) Order 2010 [SD 1022/10] The Reserve Forces Act 1996 (Isle of Man) Regulations 2010 [SI 2010/2643] The Reserve Forces Appeal Tribunals (Isle of Man) Rules 2010 [SI 2010/2644] European Community – EC Secondary Legislation October and November 2010 [GC 057/10]

Reports – Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts – Annual Report 2009 – 2010 [PP 150/10] The Treasury – The Treasury Response to the First (Interim) Report of the Select Committee on Kaupthing, Singer & Friedlander (Isle of Man) Limited [GR 059/10] Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission – Annual Report 2009 – 2010 [GD 035/10] The Treasury – Report for the Period 1 January 2009 – 31 March 2010 [GD 047/10] The Manx Heritage Foundation – Members’ report and financial statements [GD 058/10] Isle of Man Film Limited – Directors’ report and consolidated financial statements for the year ended 31 March 2010 [GD 060/10] Isle of Man Film (DOI) Limited – Directors’ report and financial statements for the year ended 31 March 2010 [GD 061/10]


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Questions for Oral Answer

CHIEF MINISTER

Island freight and passenger services Commercial competition

1. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Chief Minister:

Whether the Council of Ministers is content that the present commercial competition for Island freight service and possible future passenger service between the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and Mezeron Limited should take its natural course? 20 The President: Papers having been laid, Hon. Members, we now turn to the Question Paper. Question 1. I call the Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Question standing in my name, sir. 25 The President: I call the Chief Minister to reply, please. The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Thank you, Mr President. Mr President, the commercial market under which the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company has 30

operated since the company was formed, and including the period since the then Department of Transport entered into the User Agreement in 1995, has never precluded other commercial competitors.

As has always been known, the User Agreement relates solely to the King Edward V Pier – berth, sorry – linkspan, and provides the Steam Packet with preferential rights to use this facility in 35 return for the Company providing certain levels of ferry services for both freight and passengers. The User Agreement does not give the Company any monopoly rights in relation to carrying freight or passengers.

The Council of Ministers is, through a ministerial working group consisting of the following ministers – Ministers Gawne, Bell and Teare – monitoring closely the present situation relating to 40 the Steam Packet and Mezeron operations, and the working group is in close and regular contact with the Steam Packet Company, sir.

The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member for Michael. 45 Mr Cannan: Is the Chief Minister aware that the Chairman of the Steam Packet Company

stated inter alia in a radio interview last Sunday: ‘Today the beneficial owners have given the company authority to fight this commercial battle to a conclusion’; that the Steam Packet Company had lost in excess of 15% of its freight business; and predicted that passenger fares may have to be increased to compensate for the loss in freight income. 50

So will the Chief Minister inform Tynwald how this commercial battle will in any way benefit the economic development of the Island, benefit the existing employees in the Steam Packet Company and possibly Mezeron, benefit the tourist industry if passenger fares are to be increased – as suggested by the Company’s Chairman – and benefit the everyday wellbeing of Island residents, who rely, fundamentally, on a financially sound and reliable ferry service? 55

The President: I think, Chief Minister, there are about four questions in there. I will leave it to

you, sir. Chief Minister. 60 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. No, I am not aware of the radio interview comments made by the Chairman on Sunday. What I

would say is, in terms of the commercial battle that will go on, yes, I suspect we all find it unfortunate. However, that is how the free market works, sir, as the Hon. Member is only too aware. 65

The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan.


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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could I ask the Ard-shirveishagh, first of all, how often has this committee that he set up actually met to discuss the issues? Would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that the last thing we need is for yet more depletion, as far as Government monies is concerned, 70 allowing for the fact that some of us must feel like we have been vindicated after the nonsense of nodding through a User Agreement to 2026, which most of the Members of this Hon. Court were not allowed to see, and does he not agree that this is, yet again, another example of why we need to change the system of government so there is more accountability and more audit in the actions as far as executive Government? 75

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Apart from the usual waffle we hear, Mr President, the answer is

straightforward: the working group was set up on 2nd December and has met regularly since, and 80 that was in response to the recent situation that has arisen between the Steam Packet and Mezeron.

The President: Hon. Member for Malew and Santon. Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. 85 Will the Chief Minister confirm that the fares can only go by RPI minus 0.5%, so it cannot just

be lashed up to take account of the freight losses? The President: Chief Minister 90 The Chief Minister: That may well be so, sir. I think the Member, as a member of the Department, will know better than me. The President: Now, Mr Karran, a direct question, sir. 95 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I expect a civil answer, too. Would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that the fact that 31 of the 32 Members of this Court

voted for the nonsense of the 2026 extension to the User Agreement… would he not agree that the fact is this is yet another policy that has come back to haunt us because of the fact that we have not got the proper systems in place for parliamentary scrutiny, to hold the executive to account as far 100 as making their decisions?

The President: Mr Karran, you are repeating what you said previously. Mr Karran: I would like a civil answer, sir, and I would not want to be heckled by the Chair. 105 The President: The Chief Minister has replied. The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Without the User Agreement that has been in place since it was put in by the Government, with 110

the support of Tynwald, which is what the democratic system is about, there is no doubt we would not enjoy the extensive passenger and freight services that we presently do. (A Member: Hear, hear.) However, the free market is now battling away against that, and we will endeavour to keep an eye on that and, of course, look to see how we can ensure we protect the interests of the Island, sir. 115

The President: Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Can the Ard-shirveishagh explain, when he talks about the preference as far as

freight charges, does he not realise that the freight charges per pound are one of the dearest in 120 Europe? How does he justify saying such statements in this Hon. Court when the reality by the private sector is that they have been bled for years because of the excessive amounts of abuse from the monopoly of the Steam Packet over freight charges?

The President: Opinion rather than question, but Chief Minister, you may answer. 125 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. First, I did not make any statement about the charges for freight.


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Secondly, I think what is important to keep in mind is that we have a User Agreement. It was approved through our democratic system – i.e. the Government recommended it to Tynwald; 130 Tynwald approved it; and that is how the system works.

Thank you, Mr President. The President: Mr Cannan. 135 Mr Cannan: Final supplementary. The Chief Minister, in his reply to my supplementary, said

that he had not listened to the public comments of the Chairman of the Packet Company, when he said that the beneficial owners had given the company authority to fight the commercial battle; the Steam Packet Company had lost in excess of 15% of the freight business and he predicted that the fares may have to be increased to compensate for the freight loss. Would the Chief Minister seek a 140 recording of that public broadcast of the Chairman of the Packet Company to make himself aware of the policy of the Packet Company?

The President: Chief Minister. 145 The Chief Minister: Yes, Mr President, I think the answer to that question is quite

straightforward. We have a working group of senior Ministers, who are actually working with senior officials,

and their role, which has been given to them by the Council of Ministers, is in fact to oversee the work that is ongoing in relation to the present situation. Also I think, importantly, we should keep 150 in mind that there is an Office of Fair Trading report, which we are awaiting, which may well clarify the position in relation to costs, and furthermore we have had quite an extensive Select Committee Report on the Steam Packet, which went into considerable detail over charges, costs and how they are related and that, not so long ago, it reported back to Tynwald on that matter.

So I think, Mr President, whilst the Hon. Member is making the point he is, clearly what we 155 are concerned about is ensuring we can safeguard passenger and freight services to the Isle of Man. We have to recognise that the companies are working in a free market and, therefore there are implications to that, which the Hon. Member for Michael has always been a supporter of the free markets, sir.

Isle of Man shipping firms linked to Iran USA Treasury sanctions

2. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Chief Minister:

Whether the Council of Ministers has any concern that the United States of America Treasury 160 Department has placed sanctions on eight shipping firms, the names of which have been supplied to him, all based in Douglas, as being subsidiary companies of the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Line (IRISL) which could be used to break UN and EU sanctions against Iran? 165 The President: Question 2. Hone Member for Michael. Mr Cannan: I ask the Question standing in my name, Mr President. The President: Chief Minister. 170 The Chief Minister (Mr Brown): Mr President, the Council of Ministers is aware of the

designation of the Isle of Man companies – referred to by the questioner – by the U.S. Treasury on 30th November 2010.

This action was taken by the U.S. Treasury… has been taken, even though enquiries have 175 shown no evidence – and I repeat, no evidence – that any person in the Island has been involved in any breach of United Nations or European Union sanctions or of domestic trade control laws. Such sanctions taken by the U.S. Treasury are only legally binding on American citizens and businesses.

However, it is a matter of serious concern to the Government that any person or company connected to the Isle of Man should be listed in this way, sir. 180


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The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member Mr Cannan: Does the Chief Minister recall that, during the past six years, Isle of Man

Government delegations have been sent to Washington at the cost of thousands of pounds to 185 promote the financial services industry is a properly regulated industry of integrity, only to have any good that all these visits may have achieved undermined by the activities of these shipping services? Is it in the interests of the Isle of Man to have the U.S. Treasury, the CIA and other United States security agents trawling through the business activities of firms operating in the Isle of Man? 190

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: Mr President, I can confirm that, as always, the Isle of Man authorities

have been working for some time in close liaison with the Office of Foreign Asset Control of the 195 US Treasury on this issue. That is, again, an example of the Isle of Man co-operating fully with our counterparts across the world where there is a mutual interest.

I think that our record is one we can hold our head up high on. Again, I would re-emphasise that there has been no breach of United Nations or European Union sanctions in this matter and therefore the actions undertaken by the US authorities are actions that they have determined to 200 take. Again, I would just re-emphasise they are only legally binding on American citizens and businesses, sir.

The President: Mr Cannan, Hon. Member. 205 Mr Cannan: Final supplementary. The purpose of all this is, does it improve the image of the Isle of Man, when the US Treasury

publish documents listing the Isle of Man – and several documents, which I have – as a place where, in shipping circles and in certain circumstances, not to do business, when, on the one hand, we are promoting the integrity of the Isle of Man and, on the other hand, we are getting this bad 210 publicity in official documents… public documents in the United States?

The President: Chief Minister. The Chief Minister: I cannot answer for the US authorities. All I can say is that we believe 215

the actions they have taken are unnecessary and unreasonable. However, they have taken those actions and we have to deal with that. As far as we are concerned, the Isle of Man and these businesses have acted totally appropriately, sir.

The President: We move on, Hon. Members, to Question 4. Hon. Member for Douglas 220

North… No.

TREASURY

Isle of Man property owners Legislation re tax resident status

5. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

If she will support the introduction of legislation that would make it compulsory for all owners and beneficial owners of real property situated in the Isle of Man to be tax resident in the Isle of Man? 225 The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Question 5. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: Minister for the Treasury, please, Mrs Craine. 230


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The Minister for the Treasury (Mrs Craine): Thank you, Mr President. The Isle of Man has always had an open trading economy and we should erect economic

barriers only where it is clear that something should be protected in the national interest. Requiring the owners of real property situated in the Isle of Man to be tax resident here would form a barrier. Non-residents may own Manx land and property for any number of reasons, for example, a person 235 living abroad having inherited a house from a deceased relation. Where land and property produce income, that income is taxed in the Isle of Man, whether or not the recipient is tax resident here. The only exemption to that rule is a pension fund whose income is not subject to tax by law.

As I do not consider, Mr President, there to be any loss of revenue arising from the ownership of Manx real property by non-residents, I do not support the introduction of a rule making it 240 compulsory that such owners should be tax resident on the Island.

The President: Hon Member for Onchan. Mr Karran: Thanking the Shirveishagh Tashtee for her reply, does she not think that the issue 245

is that we need to be looking at ways where we try and get property, especially people’s homes, out of the commodity stakes, and get them back to what they need to be, where they are an investment in life, rather than an investment as far as financial return is concerned?

The President: Minister. 250 The Minister: Yes, I know the Hon. Member’s views on this matter, Mr President, and I do

believe that there is a balance to be struck. At the present time I believe that is what we do.

EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

Residential development in Kirk Michael Roadway through Primary School playing field

6. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:

(a) Whether he attended a meeting with Michael Commissioners on Wednesday, 24th November to advise the Commissioners that his Department, in conjunction 255 with Dandara Limited, intends to seek planning consent to build a roadway through Michael Primary School playing field at Douglas Road Corner, Kirk Michael, so as to facilitate residential development by Dandara at the rear of the school; (b) whether he will confirm that during 2007-08 his Department held meetings with regard to the proposed access road and organised a referendum of the residents of Kirk Michael, to 260 obtain their view; and (c) whether he will confirm that the result of the referendum was against the proposal to build a roadway through the school playing field? The President: Question 6, Hon. Member for Michael. 265 Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Question standing in my name, sir. The President: Minister for Education, please, Mr Teare. 270 The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Teare): Thank you, Mr President. As Minister for the Department of Education and Children, I did meet with Michael

Commissioners on 24th November, to advise them that the Department had received a further approach from Dandara to reconsider a land swap between the school and the adjoining field. Dandara have already secured alternative access and therefore, the original offer is no longer 275 available.

My purpose, in speaking with the Commissioners, was to be transparent with them about the offer and to work with them to get the best possible outcome for the school and Kirk Michael. The Commissioners indicated that they appreciate the Department’s position and understood that the land swap may be beneficial, long term, for the school and the village. They were, in principle, in 280 favour of the proposal and wanted to see plans of the proposed changes. The Hon. Member for


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Michael is wrong in his implied assumption that the land swap allows the developer to go ahead. The ability to progress has already been secured.

I can confirm that the Department held consultation meetings in 2007-08 and organised a referendum and that, at the time, the recorded majority were not in favour of the swap, apparently 285 of the view that this would block the redevelopment of the land in behind. However, the situation has now changed. The developer has access and, as a responsible Department, we are trying to ensure that there is the capacity to meet future needs in an environment which is safe and gives the best deal for Michael’s children and their families.

290 The President: Hon. Member for Michael. Mr Cannan: Would the Minister agree that the development to the rear of the school is zoned

for development and there is no problem; that the residents of Kirk Michael strongly object to the sale or land swap of the existing playing fields at the Douglas Road corner, an iconic landmark for 295 the village, for the TT course and the environment as a whole; and to allow this to go ahead will possibly again cause the residents of Kirk Michael to vote against the proposal, particularly as the developers have an alternative entrance to their development?

The President: Mr Teare. 300 The Minister: There seems to be a misconception there, Mr President, that the land has been

sold. It has not been sold; it has been exchanged, and the Department is getting 1.1 acres of additional land for this swap.

If the original deal had gone through, because at the time the developers did not have 305 alternative access, then we would have been, and were, in a much stronger bargaining and negotiating position. There is a legal precedent in the UK called the Cambridge Principle, which means that if an individual or company or person controls access to a development site, then that person is entitled to a share of the development proceeds. We have lost that.

310 The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan. Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh Ynsee not agree that the change in policy needs to be

encouraged by Government so that, instead of what generally happens, where Government gives everything away for nothing and then pays top dollar for everything, that we will learn lessons 315 from this, to make sure that other Government Departments make sure that they get the best price for the taxpayer, instead of a situation where often the taxpayer ends up having the assets given away for nothing, and having to pay top dollar when they want to buy anything from the private sector?

What lessons have been learned from this experience that need to be taken on by other 320 Government Departments, when these opportunities arise, when the taxpayer can actually get something of benefit for its assets that are owned in the name of the people?

The President: Mr Teare. 325 The Minister: I think this lesson has been well learned, sir, and will certainly be on the front

foot the next time round, if it happens again. The President: Hon. Member for Michael. 330 Mr Cannan: Will the Minister for Education respect the views of the residents of Kirk

Michael and before he makes any agreement with Dandara, who seem to always have a sort of golden access to Government Departments, that he will actually consult the people concerned?

The President: Mr Teare. 335 The Minister: I have consulted the representatives of Kirk Michael and I would like to remind

the Hon. Member that, when a motion was before this Hon. Court, relating to a medical centre in Jurby, he was quite content to see a representative of Michael Commissioners act as the representative of Michael. So that is exactly what I have done. I have spoken to the representative 340 of Michael, sir.


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Supply teachers Reducing level of remuneration

7. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:

(a) Whether he will confirm that with effect from 1st January 2011 his Department intends to reduce the level of remuneration of supply teachers presently paid at the level to which they have achieved, to the lower, Main Professional Grade; (b) whether this decision has the support of the National Union of 345 Teachers; and (c) whether this decision corresponds to the reciprocal pay and conditions that operate between the Isle of Man and England and Wales? The President: Question 7, Mr Cannan. 350 Mr Cannan: I ask the Question standing in my name, sir. The President: Again, Mr Teare to reply. 355 The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Teare): Thank you, Mr President. The Department does intend to limit the remuneration of teachers’ pay, on a supply basis, to

the main professional grade. For clarification, the supply roll should be used for short-term teaching – covering for absent colleagues and fulfilling only the main parade duties of a class or subject teacher. Upper pay spines and other allowances are paid for additional duties, which 360 should not be expected of a supply teacher. In other words, the Department will pay for the job being done now, rather than the rate for a job which some individual teachers may be qualified to do, sir. Where teachers are required to cover other duties – for example, when employed to cover for maternity leave – they should be appointed on a natural discharge contract, a temporary contract, and paid for the post covered. These payments reflect the work undertaken. 365

The measure has been discussed with all the teaching unions, including the National Union of Teachers. It does not have the support of the NUT, but they also recognise that decisions such as this one help protect substantive posts at a time of pressures on resources. The measure does, however, have the support of the two head teachers’ unions, the NAHT and the ASCL. As Minister for Education and Children, I have also met the joint unions personally. 370

Whilst, in general, the Department of Education and Children’s contract with teachers corresponds to the pay and conditions operating in England, different systems for offering supply work operate across England, and it is wrong to consider that the pay and conditions agreement is reciprocal. In the vast majority of areas, supply teachers can be recruited via independent agencies, who pay flat rates. For example: primary teachers in Bradford, £90 a day; primary teachers, West 375 Midlands, £110 to £125 per day; maths specialists, key stages 4 and 5, £100 to £140 per day. The maximum pay paid through the main agency, which is the Reed Agency, is £152 per day. The Isle of Man will now pay supply teachers who are at the top of the main scale, £161.81 per day, which is well in excess of the UK rate, sir.

380 The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Ynsee not agree that, the concern is that

when he talks with the likes of the adjacent isle, we have recognised, in the last 25 years, that we have come from being a low-wage economy into an economy that accepts wages are above the 385 United Kingdom for many services?

Would he not agree that the fact is that we have got a proud record, as far as education is concerned, and that one of the things that we really outshine on a generational basis over the last several generations is education has been that much more superior than the adjacent isle, as far as education is concerned? 390

Would he… does he not think that this is just the easiest way to cut, where he thinks he has got the less opportunity to be attacked, when it is not the most productive way that he should be cutting? What is he doing about all the advisers, all the top management that has been put in there in the last 10 to 15 years, from when one was a Member of the Department? Why has he gone for the easy meat like this, which will have an effect on confidence, will mean good teachers not being 395 prepared to do the job, the supply work, instead of going after some of the cushy numbers that have been allowed to be developed in the Department of Education in the last 15 years?


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The President: Mr Teare. The Minister: Mr President, I think that this is a rational approach to keep jobs. The 400

Department, by this, will be reducing the budget for supply education by over £100,000 and, in round terms, that will enable us to keep three full-time frontline teachers. He is quite wrong when he says it is the easiest way to cut. I have had discussions with the teaching unions. They were not easy but, nevertheless, I am prepared to meet and talk it through.

He makes this comment, which he seems to repeat almost like a record replaying: top 405 managers. Over the past three years, my hon. predecessor and myself actually cut the central overheads by 14%, which is about three times what has happened at the sharp end. So I think that is very commendable, sir.

The President: Mr Karran – direct questions, sir, not debating. 410 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh Ynsee circulate the management structure, as

far as advisers and the likes, as far as the Department is concerned? Does the Shirveishagh Ynsee not agree that representations are being made to me from experienced retired teachers who were an asset to education on this Island, who are now saying that they will not do it, because they are 415 being totally undervalued for the job that they are doing, which is to try and recreate continuity, as far as keeping good standards up? This will have an effect on the recruitment of that type of staff to actually come in and do that relief work.

The President: Mr Teare. 420 The Minister: As expected, sir, I have taken careful advice on this one. I feel that we will still

be able to recruit supply teachers. I did say in my substantive answer, sir, that we intend to pay the rate for the job.

Bills for signature The President: Hon. Members, before we move on to Question 8, there are two Bills for 425

signature: the Income Tax (No. 2) Bill 2009 and the Incorporated Cell Companies Bill 2009. With your agreement, Hon. Members, they will be circulated for signature.

Members: Agreed.

Special Needs/Nurture Unit, Queen Elizabeth II High School Savings from staff cuts

8. The Hon. Member for Peel (Mr Crookall) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:

How much the anticipated savings are which will result from cutting back staffing in the 430 Special Needs/Nurture Unit at the Queen Elizabeth II High School? The President: Question 8, Hon. Member for Peel, Mr Crookall. Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. 435 I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: Again, the Answer is in the hands of Mr Teare. The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Teare): Thank you, Mr President. 440 The changes to nurture at Queen Elizabeth II High School – QEII – were not primarily driven

by cost savings. The unit was scheduled for closure because, over a considerable period, use of the unit was light, with very few students attending. The closure of this under-used resource will free up additional and much-needed space in the special needs area of the school.


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The Department worked with the school to plan delivery of support in a different way. 445 Through the special needs budget, the Department agreed to fund a level 3 teaching assistant to support pupils with emotional learning difficulties to access the curriculum. The nurture unit at QEII has not had a high impact on pupils or practice across the school and, therefore, at a time when the Department is having to make savings across schools and services, the decision was taken to deliver support in a more cost-effective way. 450

The Department’s support plan for the management of social, emotional and behavioural difficulties describes the continuum of care, support and provision. Nurture groups represent one possible support strategy, but many other approaches are available. QEII has decided to take alternative approaches, which include pastoral care, in-class support and some counselling instead of nurture. Central special needs funding is already used to provide staffing for the ‘Chill Zone’ at 455 QEII, which is a unique feature of their support.

The net effect of closing the unit will be a saving of, in 2010-11, part of the year, £6,587, which includes the potential cost of redundancy; and the following year, £41,709, sir.

The President: Mr Crookall, Hon. Member for Peel. 460 Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for his very detailed answer,

sir. Can I just ask, does the Minister then believe that those needing the nurture unit at the moment

will be adequately looked after into the future; and also, would he not agree with me that three to 465 four weeks’ notice for those who were using the service is not particularly long and does not give enough time to adjust to that, sir?

The President: Mr Teare. 470 The Minister: Thank you. In response to the Hon. Member who has just resumed his seat, I feel they will be adequately

looked after. The tendency was – maybe I should step back a bit – a nursery unit is intended for young people who have problems, to step out of mainstream education for a short period of time, get their confidence restored, as it were, and then move back into mainstream education. So, that 475 will help them to reach their full potential.

Three to four weeks’ notice does seem short and I concede that. It should have been longer and I apologise for that, but there should not be people in a nurture unit on a long-term basis. It is an intention to step in and step out, as the need arises.

480 The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can I ask the Shirveishagh Ynsee the numbers of pupils who are

involved, as far as the closure of this unit? 485 The President: Mr Teare. The Minister: My recollection, sir, is two to three, but as I said before, pupils do move in and

out of the nurture unit, so it is a moving figure over a period of time. 490 The President: Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can I ask, as part of this nurture unit, is this part of the way of trying

to deal with not just special needs, but children who are disruptive in classes? What implications are there going to be, as far as anyone who has got problems and is having 495

to be put back into these classes, so that will not end up with a situation where it will be of detriment to other pupils in those classes?

The President: Mr Teare. 500 The Minister: That is a good point. We do not want a certain section of the pupil community

to disrupt the learning experience of the others. We will monitor that and I have said, we have made alternative arrangements.


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HEALTH

Breast surgery in UK or Isle of Man Cost effectiveness

13. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Health:

(a) Whether he can confirm that it is the policy of his Department that it is more cost effective for patients requiring breast surgery to have surgery in the United Kingdom rather than at 505 Noble’s Hospital; and (b) whether he can confirm that recently his Department appointed a breast specialist surgeon who has carried out procedures relating to breast reconstruction at Noble’s Hospital, but has now been stopped from performing them? 510 The President: Question 13, Hon. Member for Michael. Mr Cannan: Mr President, I ask the Question standing in my name, sir. The President: I call Mr Anderson, Minister for Health. 515 The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Mr President. We do undertake breast surgery here on the Island, such as lumpectomies and mastectomies.

This is the most cost-effective way to provide the majority of surgical procedures for breast care. What is not provided here on the Island is major breast reconstruction surgery. This is provided at 520 the Linda McCartney Centre, the highly-acclaimed regional centre in Liverpool. This centre provides the full range of breast reconstruction procedures, gives women the choice of options to meet their needs. There are relatively small numbers of these procedures carried out on our patients in the UK and, at present, the Department believes this is an appropriate provision of service. 525

Our on-Island funded service capacity concentrates on ensuring we meet national targets for suspected breast cancers. We believe the present priority remains to provide a timely breast cancer service to meet the needs of patients. We are not able to undertake breast reconstruction on Island, without additional funding resources being directed to this service. If additional funding is made available, then on-Island breast reconstruction would have to be considered against other 530 departmental priorities, most notably our top priority, which is the introduction of bowel cancer screening.

In relation to (b), the Department has appointed a locum consultant breast surgeon on a temporary basis, who has carried out three breast reconstruction procedures on Island. However, this is not the Department policy to carry on breast reconstruction at the present time. Introducing 535 breast reconstruction procedures on Island would be a service development and would be considered, as I previously advised, along with other considerations.

The President: Mr Houghton. 540 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister inform this Court as to whether the Department has actually established that

particular locum consultant to be a permanent position within his Department, sir? The President: Mr Anderson. 545 The Minister: Mr President, the locum consultant is here for a short time. We do not know

how long she is here for. However, we are putting together a business case for a full-time post and the business case details are being worked up. But before a consultant is put in post, we must have the consent of the Royal College and this has to be factored in as well. 550


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Complementary and alternative therapies Expenditure; medical practitioners employed

14. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Health:

(a) How much has been expended by his Department in each of the last two years on complementary and alternative therapies; (b) how many alternative medical practitioners are employed or funded by his Department; and (c) what is the annual cost of employing them? 555 The President: Now Question 14, Mr Houghton. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name, sir. 560 The President: Again, Mr Anderson to reply. The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Mr President. Complementary or alternative medicine or therapies is a title used to refer to a diverse group of 565

health-related therapies and disciplines which are not considered to be part of mainstream medical care. The therapies provided by complementary and alternative medicine practitioners may be provided alongside conventional medicine or may be viewed by their practitioners as a substitute for it.

The Isle of Man Health Service will only fund interventions that are supported by evidence that 570 demonstrates clinical and cost effectiveness. The recommendation of the Clinical Recommendations Committee, accepted by the Department in January 2009, was that there was insufficient high-quality evidence that demonstrated that clinical and cost effectiveness of complementary and alternative medicine. Complementary and alternative medicines are, therefore, considered a low priority and will not be normally funded unless they are an integral part of 575 treatment provided by mainstream NHS healthcare providers. Time spent on these therapies, however, should not occupy a significant proportion of staff time. If a clinician believes a patient has an exceptional case, then this could be referred – should be referred – to the Exceptions Sub-Committee of the Clinical Recommendations Committee. Mr President, at this time, the policy of the Department remains the same. 580

Turning now to the Question posed by the Hon. Member in part (a), I can advise the amount expended directly on these therapies is negligible. It was not possible in the time available to obtain the full figures for the last two years because this requires detailed analysis of prescriptions, but I can advise the Hon. Member that the expenditure on prescriptions in the first six months of this year was under £100 on only 25 items. There is no identifiable direct expenditure on off-585 Island referrals for these treatments.

In relation to part (b) of the Hon. Member’s Question, I can advise there are no alternative medical practitioners employed or funded by the Department. There are, however, four physiotherapists within the Department who are qualified to use acupuncture and may use it as part of a range of treatments available to them, but it is not possible to accurately attribute the 590 costs involved. These physiotherapists have undertaken specific courses validated by the Acupuncture Association of Chartered Physiotherapists, recognised by the Chartered Society of Physiotherapists. In addition, a small number of GPs may use homeopathetic – (Laughter) (Mr Houghton: Homeopathic!) I think you know what I mean – treatments, although they are not funded to do so. 595

Finally, although we do not directly fund them, the Hospice receives an annual grant towards its running costs and it provides a number of complementary and alternative therapies for NHS patients.

In relation to part (c) of the Question, based on my Answer to part (a) of the Question, I can advise the annual cost is likely to be in the order of £200. 600

The President: Mr Houghton. Mr Houghton: I thank the Hon. Member for his answer.


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HOME AFFAIRS

Maintenance of DHA transmitters Manx Radio contract

18. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

(a) How much the service contract awarded to Manx Radio to maintain his Department’s 605 transmitters is and what his Department gets out of it; when this maintenance contract will be going out to tender; and whether this is a subsidy to Manx Radio Engineering staff salaries? (b) How much money the service contract would cost if Manx Radio was entirely private and the current infrastructure was installed at client rates (DHA & BBC sites); and how much money has been spent by his Department on hardware and fittings for Manx Radio in the last 610 ten years? The President: We move on then, Hon. Members, to Question 18. The Hon. Member for

Onchan, Mr Karran. 615 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: On this occasion, I call Mr Earnshaw, Minister for Home Affairs. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Earnshaw): Thank you, Eaghtyrane. 620 I can confirm for Hon. Members that my Department pays Manx Radio to maintain the

transmission network. In return for payment of the fee, the Department receives expert maintenance support for the network from the Manx Radio engineering staff. I am satisfied with the service and value for money the agreement provides.

There are currently no plans to put the maintenance agreement out to tender, since Manx Radio 625 is the national public service provider, sorry, public service broadcaster, in Government ownership. Between the two of us we have a responsibility to provide and support emergency planning and communications in times of civil emergency. It is therefore in the national interest that the public service broadcaster has an adequate and effective transmission network and, for this reason, the Department works closely with Manx Radio engineering to ensure our network 630 remains robust and operational. My Department is not privy to how Manx Radio allocates the income it receives from us.

In response to part (b) of his Question, my Department has no basis on which to realistically judge how much money the service contract would cost if Manx Radio was entirely private and the current infrastructure was installed at client rates. The Department has not spent any money on 635 hardware and fittings for Manx Radio in the last 10 years, although I assume Mr Karran is really asking about the DHA transmitter network. The Department is only required to keep financial records for seven years, so I regret I am unable to provide 10 years of data, but since 2004-05, the Department has spent the following amounts on hardware and fittings for its transmission network and these are as follows. 640

In 2004-05 it was £3,557; in 2005-06 it was £12,468; in 2006-07 it was £22,487; in 2007-08 it was £34,077; in 2008-09 it was £27,097; 2009-10 it was £121,797; in 2010-11 it was £38,881, giving a total for the seven years of £260,364.

The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan. 645 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie like to just clarify the

costs, as far as the service contract is concerned, allowing that we have got the hardware and the physical costs, as far as this issue is concerned?

Would the Shirveishagh like to clarify how much of a poacher’s pocket is there hidden in these 650 costs for the benefit of Manx Radio, which should be in the accounts, clearly defined, instead of what we are told, that it is only about £800,000 to £1 million worth of subsidy, when in this and several other areas there are major hidden costs of subsidy for Manx Radio?

The President: Mr Earnshaw. 655 The Minister: Yes. What I can say, Eaghtyrane, is this is not a Government subsidy to Manx

Radio. The Department pays Manx Radio for a service we receive to maintain our transmission


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network. The Department is satisfied with the service and value for money that the agreement provides. The agreement was set in 1990, and we have not been asked to increase it since that 660 point, so it is a pretty modest sum by today’s standards, sir, in my opinion.

I think it is not in the public interest to reveal what that particular figure is, Eaghtyrane, with due respect. Manx Radio is the national public service broadcaster, in Government ownership, and between the two of us we have a responsibility to provide and support emergency planning and communications for a civil emergency, which is what I referred to in my original Answer. 665

The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie not agree that the fact is

that it will not be exposed because the fact is it will, yet again, show cross-subsidisation, the fact 670 that we have too much of a cosy arrangement?

Does he not feel it is a bit of an embarrassment, that we are looking at things like the item that was raised by the Hon. Member for Peel, where we are having to cut back on special units for vulnerable and disturbed people, and yet we are not prepared to look at cosy arrangements like this, which must add at least £100,000 a year of cross-subsidisation from his Department to Manx 675 Radio? Does he not feel that if we are having to look at all these areas, to cut costs and save money, why is he not looking at putting this out to tender, if it can save money for the taxpayers of the Isle of Man?

The President: Mr Earnshaw. 680 The Minister: I can appreciate the Hon. Member’s concerns, but I do not think we can

realistically be expected to save money when we have got a contract that has been in existence since 1990, Eaghtyrane. I totally reject and refute that we have got any sort of cosy arrangement.

The word ‘embarrassment’ was used; I reject that as well. We have got a responsibility in this 685 particular area and I think ourselves and the Manx Radio management and their engineering teams fulfil that task in the interests of the public of the Isle of Man, sir.

The President: Mr Karran. 690 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie not agree that it does not

show lightly with his Government’s commitment to transparency, when he is trying to hide the costs and the cross-subsidisation, as far as this issue is concerned?

Does he not agree that the fact is that the situation is this is just one of a number, like a previous Question I put down several months ago, where there was a large amount of public 695 money going into a public body, which was not allocated? How does he justify his Department not having to cut back, like other Departments in health, social care and education, and yet he is not prepared to look at this, release the costs, and actually put it out to tender and save more money for the taxpayers of the Isle of Man?

700 The President: Mr Earnshaw. The Minister: No, I do not agree with that, Eaghtyrane, and that will not surprise Hon.

Members. I believe my Department has played its part in reducing its budget. It has gone down already by 705

about 10% in the last two or three years, and I think further reductions are likely to follow.

Fire safety audits for public buildings Policy

19. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

Whether there is a policy on regular fire safety audits for public buildings; and, if so, what the policy is and how often audits take place? The President: Question 19, Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 710


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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: Again, Minister for Home Affairs to reply. 715 The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Earnshaw): Thank you, Eaghtyrane. In the Isle of Man, public buildings such as licensed and entertainment premises, hotels,

boarding houses and nursing homes, are required to have a fire certificate and meet fire safety requirements. Such premises are subject to periodic re-inspection by fire safety personnel. Premises considered to be at the highest risk are inspected at not less than six-monthly intervals, 720 and those at lower risk, at intervals of up to five years.

Public buildings such as Government offices are subject to the requirements of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and are subject to inspection by the Health and Safety Inspectorate, which is the responsible body for the legislation. In the course of carrying out their responsibility, they may seek guidance from the Fire and Rescue Service. 725

The President: Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I thank the Shirveishagh for his reply. Can the Shirveishagh inform us, what is the period as far as Government offices, particularly in 730

workshops and the likes that are owned by Government? Do they have to have a fire safety check on a regular basis, an audit as far as that is concerned, and how often is that expected to happen?

The President: Mr Earnshaw. 735 The Minister: Yes, good question, Eaghtyrane. There is no prescribed timescale for this. They

are risk assessed by the professionals in the Fire Service team. Those at a higher risk are inspected on a much more regular basis. Those at the lower risk are much less. I think that makes good sense all round. The ones at the higher risk may be inspected every six months. Possibly, it could be more frequent than that, if circumstances demanded, but I think that would be highly unusual. 740 Normally, it would be six months at the lower end, up to five years.

The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. 745 Can I ask the Minister regarding advice given by the Department. Could I say, if there were

concerns about any buildings, public buildings or any buildings, could he indicate to us what the procedure would be, and is the facility there… Well, I know there is, because I have used it, but could he tell us that in public?

750 The President: Mr Earnshaw. The Minister: Yes, if there are any, the Fire Service, as you would expect, take their job very

seriously. This is a high-risk area and lives may be at stake, so anything that would be reported to the Fire Service would, I am quite confident, be properly risk assessed by them and a programme 755 put in place. I can tell Hon. Members that something that is at a high risk, if the risk is downgraded, it slides down gradually. If something is at a low risk but it is suddenly discovered to be a high risk, it goes straight up the order. So it is a slow passage in one direction; a rapid one in another.

760 The President: Mr Houghton, Hon. Member. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Will the Minister acknowledge that the dramatic reduction in fires, and serious fires, is all

down to the excellent work of the Fire Prevention Team and his Department, and that is without a 765 doubt, in fact, across the whole of the land? By acknowledging that, of course, would he also like to inform this Court, or reassure this Court, that even though there are fewer fires on the Isle of Man, he will not cut down his emergency equipment and asset base in that particular area, because we have no-one else to call upon if we do have a big fire in the future?

770 The President: Mr Earnshaw.


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The Minister: Yes, I would like to give that reassurance, that all our efforts in my Department are being focused on protecting front-line services, so if our budgets come under threat, that will be my aim, certainly as long as I am Minister, to make sure the front-line services are protected, 775 and the public are protected as far as possible. Safety is our game in that respect.

The Fire Service: I thank the Hon. Member for North Douglas for his comments in that respect. The way they set out their programme is prevention, protection, and then it is fighting fires at the end of day. If it gets to fighting a fire, really it has been some sort of failure, possibly, on the first two. So there is a lot of effort put into prevention and protection. I think that has been very 780 successful in the last number of years, the last decade or so. I think we are seeing the fruits of that now.

The President: Mr Quirk, Hon. Member. 785 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the Minister, the next time he is talking to his officers, would they give some

consideration to publicising the storage of gases, highly inflammable gases – and I use those examples as acetylene and maybe propane cylinders – and could I ask him, responsible for that Department, to maybe ask the officers to put some more publicity where these particular 790 dangerous substances are stored? (Interjection)

The President: Mr Earnshaw. The Minister: I am quite that the Fire Service will be listening to this question and answer 795

session on this particular point, so I am sure they will already have logged that from Mr Quirk. Thank you for that.

The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member. 800 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can I ask the Shirveishagh can he clarify… So the policy, as far as

fire safety is concerned and its audits, we are in Government buildings. Would the Health and Safety officers have a primary role on responsibility for making sure that there is a regular fire safety audit, or would it be left to his Department?

805 The President: Mr Earnshaw. Mr Earnshaw: For buildings such as the one that we are in, it falls to the Department of

Infrastructure and their Health and Safety team, Eaghtyrane, but they will, if necessary, and I am sure they do, consult with the Fire Service where they need professional Fire Service advice. 810

INFRASTRUCTURE

Vehicle excise duty Review

20. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

If he will make a statement on his review of vehicle excise duty announced earlier this year? The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Question 20, sir. Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr President. 815 I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. The President: I call on the Minister for Infrastructure, Mr Gawne. The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 820 I confirm that the Department has concluded its consideration of the consultation feedback and

intends to bring forward proposed changes to the Vehicle Duty Order to the January sitting of Tynwald. A consultation response will be issued in the next few weeks.


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The President: Mr Watterson. 825 Mr Watterson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Last part first: I do not think there is a delay. We need to get an Order passed by Tynwald, in

advance of the new financial year beginning 1st April, so we have taken our time to properly and thoroughly consider all the responses. The responses were: 125 in relation to the vehicle duty consultation; and 81 in relation to the veteran vehicle consultation; a total of 206 responses. 830

Planning applications online Restrictions and difficulties of viewing

21. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

In relation to viewing planning applications online – (a) why it has been made necessary for potential viewers to register and enter the Government’s central online area before an application can be viewed and if he will review that policy; (b) why the system has been designed so that images above 4kB in size cannot be viewed online 835 and if he will reconsider that restriction; and (c) if he will arrange for hyperlinks to be added to the weekly ‘press lists’ published online so that planning applications can be viewed by that route, without having to register? The President: Question 21, Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 840 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. The President: Again, the Answer is in the hands of Mr Gawne, Minister for Infrastructure. 845 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I am pleased that the Hon. Member has asked this Question as it is a matter to which I will be

referring later in my Planning Statement. The Department has been working for several years to improve public access to the planning

process, and one key part of this has been to improve public access to information on planning 850 applications and the ability to submit comments and representations online. I am pleased to announce that planning applications online went live in September and we continue to develop and improve the service provided.

In respect of the specific points raised by the Hon. Member, I can advise that it is no longer necessary for users to register and log in to the central online Government services on the 855 Government website home page. The Department has always sought an easy, direct, click-on facility. I am pleased to say that this was achieved in November and I would invite Hon. Members to click on ‘Online Services’ on the Government web home page and then click on ‘Planning Applications’ to search for planning applications by application number, property or weekly press release list. Now a user only needs to register if they wish to submit a comment: this is required to 860 enable us to contact the user, if we need to follow up on any of their comments.

In respect of (b), unfortunately, as with all online services, there is a restriction on the amount of information that can be supplied. As a point of information, the current limit is 4 megabytes, not 4 kilobytes. There are 1,000 kilobytes in a megabyte. Providing additional capacity has time and cost implications including, in many cases, the ability of the user’s PC to handle the amount of 865 data. For example, should a customer at home have a dial-up connection and they try to retrieve an image larger than 4 megabytes from any source, it could take a significant amount of time to download – over an hour on a slow connection. Even if the customer was to contact the Division directly for a large image to be forwarded under separate cover, a lot of internet service providers restrict e-mail to block attachments larger than 5 megabytes. However, I welcome the Hon. 870 Member’s Question and his interest in improving the service, so long as it is within practical limitations.

In respect of (c), I would advise the Hon. Member to look again when he goes to the website. If you search by weekly list, you will find all applications listed and, if you click on the application number, there is a direct link to all the information on the application. As I have explained above, 875


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it is no longer necessary to register just to view application details, but it is, if you wish to submit views on a particular application.

Gura mie eu. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan. 880 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, while thanking the Shirveishagh for his reply, could he tell us when

the change of policy came about, as far as the issues as far as (a) and (c)? Thanking him for those changes, would he not agree that the issue, as far as (b) is concerned, it makes it very difficult for people that really take real input, if they cannot see larger plans, as far as a planning application is 885 concerned?

The President: Mr Gawne. The Minister: Gura mie eu. 890 I do not think there has been a change of policy. It was always the policy of the Department to

have the facility as it now exists. However, we use the Government ISD system and it is not always possible for them to introduce exactly what we want, when we want it, so it has taken a bit of time to get that all together, but they are now delivering what we had asked for, which I think is good. I thank the Hon. Member for his thanks! 895

With regard to the issue raised in question (b), yes indeed, if we were all using broadband and we all had superfast connections, it would be very good to have more specific, more detailed pictures available, but they do require considerably larger sized documents and as I say, at the moment we are unable to provide those, because Internet Service Providers would not allow people using direct dial-up connections perhaps to download that size of information. So I think it 900 is a case of speed and being able to access the stuff. Obviously in an ideal world we would like to increase the size available, so that people can get more specific detail.

The President: Mr Karran. 905 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, further supplementary. Can the Shirveishagh explain to us when they actually did change (a) and (c)? Allowing for the

fact that we have to give at least eight days’ notice to the Departments for Questions, has it happened in the last fortnight or has it happened in the last month, as far as the fact that now you do not have to register for names, which I applaud and I think it is important, but I think people 910 need to realise the fact is that it takes at least eight days’ notice for us to be able to ask Departments. When did that actually happen that the change of policy… that you are able to get the Department of Economic Affairs with its computer system to give you the service that you requested a long time ago?

915 The President: Mr Gawne. The Minister: It may take eight days for Hon. Members to put Questions down. We get those

Questions on the Tuesday. I received the Question on the Tuesday, I went online to see what the problems were and I 920

found that the system was working perfectly and that was as soon as I got the Question. All I know is that the information given to me by my officers is that the changes were made in November. Whether that was at the beginning of November or the end of November, I am afraid I have not that specific information, but if the Hon. Member wishes to find out, I am sure we can provide that. 925

SOCIAL CARE

Public sector housing Deficiency costs since 2008

22. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Watterson) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

What the deficiency cost of public sector housing was for the financial years – (a) 31st March 2008;


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(b) 31st March 2009; (c) 31st March 2010; and (d) what the estimated deficiency is for 2011 in light of the recent measures announced? 930 The President: Question 22, Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson. Mr Watterson: Thank you, sir. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 935 The President: This time, I call on the Member for Middle, Mr Quayle, Minister for Social

Care, please. The Minister for Social Care (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 940 In response to the Hon. Member’s Question, the deficiency cost of public sector housing for

the financial years requested were as follows: (a) 31st March 2008, £7,276,549; (b) 31st March 2009, £6,445,982; (c) 31st March 2010, £4,719,203; and (d) estimated to 31st March 2011, £6,484,907.

The recent measures I announced for the financial year 2011-12, of a 5% increase in rents and 945 the reduction of the allowance retained by local authorities and the Department for maintenance, from 33 1/3% to 30%, as well as some minor changes in the capital programme procedures, have the effect of reducing estimated deficiencies for 2011-12 to £7,790,000, which is a saving of over £1 million over the previous estimate for that year.

Thank you, Mr President. 950 The President: Mr Watterson, Hon. Member. Mr Watterson: Yes, thank you. I notice now that the Minister is saying that is a saving over the previous estimate for that year. 955

In his press release he says these will reduce the cost to the taxpayer by £1 million annually, which is not the same thing. Will he accept, then, that the cost is still rising for the public sector deficiency on housing, not falling, as his press release seems to indicate?

The President: Mr Quayle. 960 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think the point was that the rents are being paid by the ratepayers of the local authorities and

such that, when there is an increase in their rents, then that is not a matter for the taxpayers, it is actually for ratepayers who are involved with that. 965

The President: Mr Cretney. Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask my colleague: would he be prepared, in the interests of openness and the full 970

picture, to make sure that the figures are published for the deficiency in relation to first-time buyer support, all of which I think is welcomed, and also the support which is given to private landlords who own property.

The President: Mr Quayle. 975 The Minister: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I do have some information relating to the first-time buyers: the total amount of Government

assistance that has been given to first-time buyers over the last four years, for example, is such that that amounts to £7,820,084 in grants. Top-up loans amounted to £7,619,778, which is a combined 980 total of £15,493,862 over the last four years to the 31st March 2010.

The President: Mr Lowey, Hon. Member. Mr Lowey: Would the Minister confirm that his public sector housing includes sheltered 985

housing, which is a social issue? Would he also confirm that, for the last two years, people who were buying their homes have paid no interest at all on those loans, so not only do they get their


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grant, they get their loans interest free? When was it last reviewed and will he give an undertaking the Department will revisit this situation?

990 The President: Mr Quayle. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President and I am grateful to the Hon. Member of Council, Mr

Lowey, who advised me of some questions he had, including the last one, in fact, where I gave a response to the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Cretney, in terms of all amounts paid in 995 relation to the four years for grants and top-up loans for first-time buyers. I am pleased to confirm that, to his first question, sheltered housing is included.

The second point I think he was mentioning was about the interest rates and it may be noted from the November sitting of Tynwald that there was some information provided by the Department of Social Care that we have already been looking at the interest levels for first-time 1000 buyers, as part of our overall review across the whole of the Department.

What I can say is that, while the proposals are not finalised, certainly we have been considering a change and I can confirm the interest charged on the loans is calculated on the basis of interest rates, less 1%, but as the current rate is 0% we are reviewing that and we envisage, subject to the Council of Ministers and support by Tynwald, then those changes will occur. I think I have 1005 covered the other points in the Hon. Member’s questions. Thank you.

The President: Mr Karran. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that it is a bit… misguiding people 1010

outside this Hon. Court to say that somehow local authorities have some liability (Mr Watterson: Hear, hear.) as far as local authority housing is concerned, whilst it is 100% deficiency on Government (Mr Watterson: Hear, hear.), as far as that issue is considered, and that their rates are nothing to do with the costs of local authority housing? (Mr Watterson: Absolutely.)

Would the Shirveishagh also not agree that at least somewhere in the region of about 30% to 1015 50% in each of these years is the subsidy on sheltered accommodation, which is open to all of us once we reach 60, whether we own property or we do not own property? Does he not feel that it is unfair to give out these figures when we are talking about two different criteria? One is where we have people who cannot afford to buy a house and are in social housing because they cannot afford, because of the lack of the initiatives to bring about affordable housing; and the other, the 1020 sheltered accommodation, is there for people to keep them out of old people’s homes? Will he not circulate the breakdown between the others?

Finally, would the Shirveishagh not agree that it does concern the general public, like the Hon. Member for Rushen, when we get these statements coming out of his Department like the statement that we have never built more council houses in our history in this period of time, when 1025 the fact is that we should also follow that up with we have never knocked down so many council houses in this period of time, either?

Mr Cannan: Hear, hear. 1030 The President: Mr Quayle. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. In answer, I think, not only to the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson, but the Hon.

Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, I have not got the actual press release with me, but I will 1035 certainly have it checked and if there is any need to clarify any point there, I am more than happy to do that.

In terms of the other questions to which the Hon. Member for Onchan referred, I would just like to point out, Mr President, I am to make a statement on the housing policy review that is underway. I would urge all Hon. Members that if they have any particular points, then they could 1040 be wrapped up within that housing policy review. All Hon. Members, the public and the local authorities will be invited to submit their views on any particular matters to do with housing policy, such that we will not be rushing into any changes now, as that would be pre-empting the actual review that is underway.

Thank you, Mr President. 1045 The President: Mr Cretney, Hon. Member.


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Mr Cretney: Could I ask two points, Mr President? The first one: would the Minister take on board that, despite what his press statement may say, those people who now live in 1050 accommodation, whose previous accommodation was knocked down, are very pleased about that. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

The second point, Mr President, if I can ask: if it is not within his remit, could he please, in order to provide balance and the full picture, ask whoever is responsible to make sure that the information is released to the public about how much is spent by Government to private landlords 1055 for accommodation.

The President: Mr Quayle. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1060 I am grateful to the Hon. Member for the question – from Mr Cretney for South Douglas. I do think that it is important to emphasise there is a great amount to be proud of in terms of

this administration, in terms of what it has achieved in replacing very old properties that were well past their sell-by date. People around the Island have benefited immensely from provision of new housing, which has replaced older housing. Also, 1,100 people, I understand, have benefited from 1065 assistance in terms of first-time buyers’ grants and assistance over the last 10 years. So I think the statistics will stand up for themselves. In this five-year period, I think we are on course to have provided more new housing than in the last probably four or five decades.

In terms of the two points, I think yes, I feel sure… indeed, I have met a number of residents, in fact, only last week out at Archallagan and in Cronk Grianagh. The residents of the new 1070 properties, whether

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