Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 4 SEPTEMBER 1877

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

876 AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.~ PeNtion.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

Tuesday, 4 6eptember, 1877.

Petition.-Kangaroo Point Schools.-Qnestiomt-Runs in the Port Curtis District.-Snpply-resnm ptiou of committee.-New ~1ember.-Supply.

The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past three o'clock.

PETITION. 1\fr. 1\fclLWRAITH presented a petition

from certain rcRidents in the Maranoa dis­trict, with reference to faeilities for the ~ale of colonial wines in the interior.

Petition received and read.

Runs in Pol't Cu!'tis District. [,j, SEPTE:IIBEH.] Supply. 877

KANGAROO POINT SCHOOLS. ::\Ir. THO:IIPso~ explained that in the

debate on the Estimates brought forward by the Minister for Instruction on Wed­nesday last, in making use of the expres­sion with rt>spect to excessive punishments, "the Kangaroo Point case was notorious," he did not rpfpr in any way to the present masters of Kangaroo Point schools. On tlw contrary, he was happy to say that those sehools were now admirably nutnaged.

QUESTIONS. ::\Ir. BEATTIE asked the Secretary for

Public \V orks-1. vYho bas been' employed as forwarding

agt>ut or agents for the Government since the 1st cf J an nary, 187 6 ?

2. The amounts paid to such agents for receiving, cartage, delivering, stomge, and com­Inission?

The J.VlrxrsTER FOH \YonKs (Mr. Thorn) replied-

1. l\Icssr;. George Harris and Oo. act as forwarding agents for waterworks material, and they were also emploJ·ed for railway material up to December, 1876, sinee which time the railway storcman has aetcd as agent.

2. Amount paid to Messrs. Harris and Oo. : On aceount of railway material, earlage and lighterage, £1,38612s. ~cl.; on aecount of wator­'Yorks material, cartage and lighterage, £ll7 4s. 6cl.; wharfage and storage at. Ipswich, £35 19:<. 3d.; receiving and delivering pipes for Board of Waterworks, £3 13s.; incidental expenses, £9 10s. ; eartage of railway material to con­tractors, £702 15s. 3d.; storeman's expenses, £27.

Mr. "r_tLSH asked the Sceretary for Publie ·works-

"\Vhat charge is macle to the Corporation of Brisbane by the Railway Department for the <·otwevance of roacl metal from Banclanba to the Bi·isbane terminus ?

'l'he l\IrNISTEH FOH \VOHKS replied­The railway charge on road metal is ls. 6c1.

per ton, with 4;J;d. per ton extra added when metal is brought in special trains.

RUNS IN THE PORT CURTIS DISTRICT. The PHEMIEH (Mr. Douglas) said he

wi~lwcl to postpone the following resolu­tions stamling on the paper in his name :-

1. 'l'hat, in pursuance of section 10 of the Crown Lands Alienation Act of 1868, this House resolYes to resume from the leases o.E the undermentioned runs the -areas hereinafter spec·ificcl, as clescribocl in the schedule laid on the table of this House of the lands proposed to be resumed from the runS' in the mid district-

SETTLED DISTRICT OF PORT 0URTIS.

About 112 square miles to be resumed from Canal Creek or Canoona No. 9 Run.

About 20 square miles to be resumed from Illar.rmle Run. .

About 22<!- t-qwtre milt's to be resumed from \Voocllancb or Tea-tree Run.

About 59 square miles to be resumed from Canoona Run, consolidated.

About 38~ square miles to be resumed from Lake Learmonth Run.

About 91 square miles to be resumed from Rosewood Run, consolidated.

2. That the foregoing resolution be forwarded to the Lpgislative Council for their concurrence, by message in the usual form.

Mr. W .A.LSH would like to know why the honourable gentleman postponed the motions?

The PuE:IIIEH said there was no very strong reason for either postponing or bringing them forward. He was bound to bring thPm forward at some time, in conse­quence of a pledge he had given to that effect on a previous occasion. The hon­ourable member was continually express­ing an opinion that it was most important that Supply should be considered, and that the Government ought to lose no opportu­nity of advancing what he termed the real business of the eountry. This might be urged as a reason for postponement; but as he himself had no particular desire to postpone the motions, he would promise to bring them forward this day week.

J\fr. vV ALSH said he had asked the ques­tion because the Premier had formerly shown great alacrity in resuming a large portion of the country, and now, strangely enough, he was equally anxious to postpone resumptions in one particular district.

Motions postponed.

SUPPLY-RESUMPTION OF COM· MITTEE.

The House went into Committee of Supply.

The MINISTER FOH INSTRUCTION (.l\fr. Griffith) moved a vote of £2,015 for Gram­mar Schools. This, he said, consisted prin­cipally of sums for exhibitions. The vote taken last year was somewhat more than was reqmrecl, and the consequence was that there was some little balance saved. The amounts asked for this year were, how­ever, as nearly as possible the exact sum required. There was one item of £.L50 for exhibitions, to be granted in January, 1878, and this was founded upon the basis of the Bill of 1875, the principle of which was affirmed by the House. There would be sixty new scholarships offered at £15 each, and the travelling expenses of the scholars, as honourable members would sec•, wPre put clown at £150. Another itPm to whieh hl• would eall atten­tion was £500 for a girls' Grammar School at Brisbane. This was a new votP. 'l'hc Brisbane Grammar School some time ago undertook the con duet of a girls' as well as a boy's school, ancl the services rendered to the cause of education by that school wa:; com;iclemblP. It wa,; found, howevPr, that the subsidy gr,mted to the Grammar

878 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

School of £1,000 a-year was iusufllcient to enable the two schools to be carried on without a loss. The grant of £1,000, no doubt, enabled the boys' Grammar School to be· carried on, not only satisfac­torily, but so as to leave Rome little surplus. The girls' Grammar School entailed the appointment of an additional staff; and it was now proposed to assist them by this grant of £.)00. There could be no doubt that if the part of the Bill to which he had referred had been passPd in 1875 girls' Grammar Schools would have been establislwd in Bris banc as well as in other parts of the colony bdore now ; and he could not help expressing an opinion that it was very desirable that provision should be made as much for the higher edueation of girls as for boys. The necessity, probably, would not be so general; but some pro­vision at any rate should be made. There was no reason why the scholarships granted to Grammar Schools should be confined to boys only. As a matter of fact, some were granted to girls, £or at the examination last ,January scholarships were won by girls ; and he trusted this system would be continued. He might mention that the whole vote £or £2,015 was founded upon the principle afllrmed by the House in 1875. He should be glad i£ he wrre in a position to state that as nmch of the Secondary Education Bill as related to the Grammar Schools would be passed this yPar; but he could not see that there was much prospect o£ this being dour. It was highly important that the subjeet of secondary education should not be lost sight of; and ever since the Bill of 1875 was introduced they had regarded the expression o£ the House as almost unani­n1ons upon that part of it. It was in con­templation immPdiately to give notice that Pxaminations should be held in December for scholarships next year, and upon that understanding the vote was founded.

Mr. \V ALSH objected to the vote, because it was, in plain terms, setting aside the la1Y. Again and again this session the law had been broken, and it was now to be broken again. The Act made no mention whatever o£ provision £or a girls' Grammar School. The present girls' Grammar School wtts, therefore, improperly founded, and was improperly attended to by the masters o£ the boys' Grammar School, whose duties were thereby being divided. It was, in short, nothing but a private semi­nary got up by certain gentlemen for the education o£ their own daughters or the daughtt>rs o£ their friends. Inferentially, girls WPre excluded altogether by the Edu­cation Aet, which wrnt. upon the basis that the scholars should be able to qualify themselves for the Sydney University. The trustees had altogether gone beyond their £unction.>, and had done a thing never sanctioned by Pttrliament ; and he had no

doubt, if the masters of the boys' school were consulted, it \YOuld be found from their evidence that this illegal aet had bpen a great injury to the boys' Grammar School. They all witnessed the wretched squabble that took place twrlYe months ago between the trustees o£ th!' boys' Grammar School and its master and the managers of the girls' school. All this, he believed, was entirely in con­sequence of the trustees o£ the boys' Grammar School going b0yond the law. As far as the application of money was macle with respl'et to the boys' sehool, they had Pxhausted all and more than the Act authorized' the Gon'rnment to sub~iclize them with. The Act to provide £or the e~tablislnnent o£ Grammar Sehools provided in its seconc1 section that whenrvrr a sum o£ not less than £1,000 should have bren raised within any distriet there should be nominated and appointed a number of per­sons to be called the trusters of the selwol; and it was evident that there had bPen no sneh trustees appointed for a girls' Gram­mar School. The third section o£ the Act said,-

" It shall be lawful for the Governor wit.h the achiee of the Executive Council whenever fees to the amotmt. of two hundred and fifty pounds per annum shall be promised byrespm;. sible persons for a period of not less than thrC'e years by warrant under his hand to direct to be issued and paid out of the genemlrevenue of the colonv to the credit of each of the said bodies of ·trustees by four equal quarterly pay­ments on the first day of J>tmutry the first. day of April the first clay of July and the first doty of October in every year a sum or sums not exceeding in the whole fiye hundred pounds as a fund for defraying or contributing to the seveml stipends which slmll be appointed to be paid to the several masters or tcaclwrs in the s>tid schools respectively and for or towards

"cliseharging all incidental and neces~ary current expenditure connected with the said schools." I£ the girls' Grammar School wa~ a let,riti­mate one there was no occasion for the Government to come down and ask for this separate sum, beeause the GoYernor, hy warrant, could guarantee a subsidy for three years. He would ask the Attorm'y­GPneml i£ a guarantee o£ this sort had been granted to the girls' Grammar School P He (lVIr. \Valsh) maintained that it was absolutely illPgal to pay a penny o£ money to this school. In the fourth clause it was very clearly sePn that only a boys' Grammar School was contrmplatecl, for it said,-

" It Rhall be nevcrthc!eRs lawful for the Gov­m·nor with the advice of the ExccntiYc C0uncil to retain and reserve in any year that he may see fit from and out of >tll and every or one or more of the seveml snms payable under the last section to the said several bodies of trustees respectively any sum not exceeding ten per centum of the amount payable in each year and all such sums when &o retained and reserved shall form a general fund for providing one or

Supply. [4 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 879

more scholarships or exhibitions of an anmml value to be determined by the Governor in Council at any British or Australian University and such scholarships or exhibitions shall be open to the pupils of all the Grammar Sehools established under the provisions of this Act Provided that such scholarships or exhibitions shall only be obtained after public competitive examination according to such regulations as by the Governor in Council may be established."

Surely that indication excluded girls from the operation of the Aet ; and he hoped the eonmtiLtee would see that they were not justified in voting a sum of monPy that was asked for an illegal purpose. A sepa­rate Aet of Parlittment was rcquir<•d before the GoYermnent would be able to make such a grant. He trusted that honourable members, however much tht•y, like himself, wished to see a general system of education rrrrried out throi1gh the length and breadth of the land, would be still more anxious to st'e the law faithfully observed throughout the length and breadth of the land. Last week it was pointed out that the Govern­ment were fostering a brea<;h of the laws in respect to the judges, and now they were violating the Grammar Schools Act. He protested against it, and would move that the sum of £500 be omitted.

'l'he MINISTER FOR INSTRl!CTION said the honourable member for vVanego was very fond of saying that things were clone illegally. There was nothing in the Act to show that Grammar Schools should be established for boys only, and that it was not desirable to educate girls as highly as boys. He quite• agreed that it would be illegal to pay this vote without the sanc­tion of the committee. This girls' school was a branch of the Brisbane Grammar School ; it was all one school, and the question now was simply as to whether an additional grant should be given the school.

1fr. KING said the girls' Grammar School was either a new school or part of the old one. If it was a new sehool, where were the subscriptions which had to be contri­buted according to the At't P If it was part of the old school, then the amount of the subsidy was already fixed by Act of Parliament, and the committee were being improperly asked to grant a larger amount. If the Minister for Instruction thought that girls were entitled to the higher branches of education, he should have brought in a short Act to repeal the old Act. \Vhat­ever he might have clone if the proposal to allow a girls' Grammar School to be estab­lished had boon brought forwartl, he cer­tainly should not vote for the cxpenditme of the public moneys after the country had been committed to the establishment of the school by gentlemen who were not mem­bers of the House or in any way responsi­ble to it. These gentlemen virtually came

to the House and said, "There is the school; you must assist us because you cannot do without it."

Mr. BELL said he was surprised that honourable members should raise any objection to the legality of this vote, after accepting the illegal mode by which education in the colony was made free. Education in this colony was made free by a scratch of the pen ; and he could not, therefore, see why the committee should make any bones about this small item. The question was, as the 1iinistrr for InstrncHon had put it-vY as it desirable to give girls the same opportunity of obtaining a higher edueation as boys had P As to the legality of the vole, he n'peated that they were only straining at tt very small point after accepting a very much larger one under the Education Act. So far as he was concerned he should vote for the item, beeause he thought it was too late to question the legality of this procedure. It had been accepted as the act of the Gov­ernment; at all eYents the aetion of the Government in establishing the girls' school was within the knowledge of hon­ourable members, and no exception "·as taken. He would ask whether it was the intention of the Government to build a girls' Grammar School and supply greater accommodation than was at present pm­seHscd r He thought favourably of the item before the committee ; but to his mind it seemed a very small sum to vote for a girls' school, and he could not diseoYer from the Estimates whether this was the whole amount that was necessary to defray the expenses of the school.

The MINISTER FOR INSTRUCTION said that the item represented the whole ex­pense that would have to be borne by the GoYernment. The building of a school was in the hands of the trustees of the Grammar School, not in the hands of the Government. It was not the intention of the Government to build a new school.

Mr. MACROSSAN was considerably sur­prised at the argument used by the hon­ourable member for Dalby, for, according to it, Government would be justified in doing anything. It was rather an aston­ishing argument to use, that because some­thing was illegally done seven or eight years ago, and not called in question, the Government were justified in this course. The question was not whether a girls' school was desirable, but whether the GoYcrnmcnt had acted legally ; and he thought that they had not, and that the MiniHter for Instruction had failed to answer the argument of the honourable member for Ravenswood.

The 1fiNISTER FOR INSTRUCTIO::><, in reply to the honourable member for Ravenswoocl, repeated that this was a branch of the Bri~bane ~ehool, which school was estab·

880 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

lished long ago. There was notl{ing in the Act prohibiting instruction to girls being given in the Grammar School, and the question was simply whether that instruc­tion should be subsidized.

Mr. Knm said, according to what the MiniRter for Instruction now ~aid, the item was put down incorrectly in the E~timates. The Minister now said it 11-as clown in the l<~stimates because the school was part of the Brisbane Grammar School. His (Mr. King's) reply to this was, that the Aet of Parliament limited the subsidy to that ~ehool, and that before the subsidy could be increased the Act must be altered.

]\,fr. J. ScoTT said honourable members had failed to Rhow that thne was any ille­gality whatever in the l'Stablislunent of the f.,rirls' school as a branch of the BriRbane Grammar School. That school had bcPn inereased, to a certain rxtent, beyond what had been intended at one time, and the vote wa~ required in addition to the original ~ub~idy. There wa~ nothing wrong m this. He could not understand why, £1,000 ~hould be given for the higher cdueation of boys and nothing for the higher education of girls. 'l'his vote was nothing more than fair, and was only towards carrying out what had already been sanctioned.

Mr. BEr.L said the honourable member for Kennedy had misapprehended Ins con-

. tention, which was, that this was a very small question compared with a larger one which the House had permitted to pass without any censure.

Mr. vV ALSH said the member for Spring­sure had not shown, as he ought to have clone, that this girls' school was establi~hed in conformity with the Act. He had been informed that the trustees had not appliPd for assistance until a month or two ago ; and he presumed that they had heretofore maintained the sehool from the fees de­ducted from the parents of the pupils. Before a new Grammar School could be established a certain amount must be sub­scribed, a.nd cNtain Executive action must be taken, which conditions had not been complied with in this instance. The girls' school was not cstabliHhed in conformity with the Act, and the committee had no data whatever to go upon in deciding upon the vote. J'\ o trustees had been legally appointed, but the ma.nagemPnt of the school was in the hands of an incor!Jorated body, which seemed to give itself the same powers as was possessed by legally appointed trustees. The committre also found that the necessary buildings for carrying on the sehool had nen•r bren erertPd-an iudispensable condition before an endowment could be elaimed. He con­sidered the cxpenditme most illegal.

Mr. PETTIGREW said he was surprisrd at the item, and could only account for it appearing on the E~timatcs by SU}'posing

that it was put forward as a. feeler. He had yet to learn that the young ladies of Brisbane rPquired a higher Nlucation than the young ladies of Toowoomb[L and Ips­wich, in whieh towns there were abo Grammar Sehools. He would support the vote, provided the :Minister for Instruetion would gi,·e a distinct pledge that he woultl place similar amounts on the J~stimatt•s so soon as thPy were requin'd by the other Grammar Schools in the colony, and the necessary ·accommodation for girls' schools was surplied. He objected to one place in par,ticular being singlNl out, for it lookPd very mneh like as if it was intended that the daughters of residPnts of Brisbane should be pducated to be ladies.

The :VIrxrsTER FOR IxsTRUCTIOX said he was prepared to promise that so soon a.s girls' branchPs were established in connec­tion with the Ipswich and Toowoombu Grammar Schools, in the same way as the Bri,bane branch, he should be very glad to plaep a sum on the l<~KtimateK. and would do cn'rythiug in his power to bring about that Pncl. At prPsent the fact was that the Brisbane Grammar School was the only one which had a braneh for girls.

NEW ME~IBER. :\fr. J\IciLWI\AITH said, as it seemed

likely that the House would remain in Committee of Supply for some time, and as there was an honourable gentleman entitled to a seat in the House who wished to be s1\-orn in, he would move that the Chairman leave the chair and report pro­gress.

The PmnnER said he had no objection to the motion, on the understanding that it would meet with the convenience of the hon­ourable gentleman who \Yished to be sworn in. I£ it had been left to him he should have been very happy to move the proposi­tion.

Question put and passed. The CrrAIIDIAX accordingly reported

progress. The SPEAKER announcrd that he had

received from the returning officer a return to the writ issued for the election of a member for vYide Ba.y, to_ the (':ffect that J\1r. vVilliam Gill Bailey was duly elected on Angmt 2;3.

]\fr. Bailey was, thcrdorl', introduced to the Speaker and sworn in.

SUPPLY. On the motion of the Cor.OXIAL TnEA­

SURER tlw House again went into Com­mittre of Supply.

Mr. IIocKrxas said there did not apvear to be anything in the Art to 11revcnt the trustees of the Brisbane Grammar School taking the eourse which had been adopted. They clescrvPd to be commended for havi11g established a branch for the higher cduca-

Supply. [,j, 8EPTE1IBER.] Supply. 881

tion of girk He took it that provision should be made for the edueation of girls as well as boys; and he hoped to see girls' Grammar Sehools in other rarts of the colony, and that the committee would be equally lilwral in the assistance to be ex­tPndecl to them. He considered the vote now aRked for very rPasonable, ancl that it should pass the committee.

.Mr. MciLwR.UTH said that three years ago the trustees of the Brisbane Grammar 8choolrecei yed an endowment of £ti.OOO in cmnpcnsation for a portion of tlwir la11d taken for a railway station; and at the present time thry had claims for eompen­sation anwunting to double that sum. These facts, ancl the very much Pnhm:cecl value of the land, they he ]cl, wPre sufficient reasons to induce him to reject the vote askl'd for.

:Mr. PAL1Iiht said !hat there was nothing in the Act to prenmt the trusters of the (rrammar 8chool from giving girls the benefit of seeondary edueation. "'Yhether thPy were right or wrong in doing HO wa~ a quc~tion he did not at tlutt time intend to argue; but the }JOint at issue was, that the school in quc~tion was either a frP~h Grammar School or an addition to the existing one.

The .J1:rxrsTER FOR IxsTRUCTIOX: Yt>s. Mr. P.n>IER said then if it was not a fresh

Grammar 8chool they hac1 no right to come and ask the House for a vote for it. The quPstion was a simple one. If the trus­tees wished to admit girls to grmmnar school education there was no law to pre­vent them, but let them come forward with their subscriptions. The vote was a mere bagatelle; he would have no objection to giving £500 to the girls' Grammar 8chool, but the item was irrPgularly and and impro­perly placed on the Estimates.

'l'lw J'IIINISTER FOR INSTRUCTION said that the proposal was really to increase the annual subsidy to the Grammar School from £1,000 to £1,500, to meet the in­creased expense which the trustees incurred in carrying out an addition which was generally considered a proper and desirable one. If the item was improperly in the Estimail•s so were the endowments to two Grammar Schools last year.

J\fr. PAL11ER: They were from loan. 'l'he Jl.fiNISTER FOR INSTRUCTION saicl they

knew very well what those sort of loans were. He could not understand why hon­ourable members should persist in calling the vote an illegal one. There was nothing to pr<'vcnt the committee from voting £10,000 if it thought proper. \Yith rc'spcct to the objection taken by the honourable nwmbt'r for J'lfaranoa, that the Grammar School had reeciYedlarg<' amounts as com­pc•nsation for land, he wi~hl'd to point out to honourable members that thl'8e amounts did not increaoe its income. The prol!o:,i­tion before the committee was to a:s:;i;:;t the

trustees in carrying out what \Yas generally fl'lt to be a necessity-the l'Sta bli~lnnPnt of ~L ~ystC'm of high-class education for girk

Mr. BELL said that the Act clid not de­clan• that £:31)0 should not be put upon the Estimates for this purl!Ose; therl'foro it was quite legal for the committee to vote the sum.

Mr. \Ynsu said that the Act only gaYe powpr to Goyernment to subsidize amounts annuall.Y guaranteed; and the l\linister for Instruction had shown them noproofthat a11y such guamntPl'S had been gin·n. It was pasy enough to eonform to the Aet. If the Yote was in conformity with the Aet, why was not one asked for last year? He lmew the school was a Yery unsatisfactory Olll',

being nc·ithrr a Gon•rnment, grammar, priYatc, nor any other sort of definPd school. A rintl school had been estab­lished, which he heard was a grpat success, and he bc•lieved that the rivalry had arisc•n c•ntirely through the• unsatisfactory state of the girls' Grammar 8ehool.

:\Ir. ,J. Scorr said that if the forms whieh the honourable member deseribl'd had been gone through, the trustees would not haYC been compelled to come to the Home ; thPy "-oulcl ha Ye got the money otherwise.

l\Ir. \V.nsn said that the honourable member admitted that the Aet lmd not bePn complied "-ith.

l\Ir. ,J. 8coTT said he did not. He sairl that if certain forms had bc·en complit>d with the trusters would not have been compelled to come to the House. It >Yas bccau~e they had not been able' to get the monpy by one process that they were com­pl•lled to adopt another.

.Mr. P.H)IEI\ said that the certain forms of which the honourable member for Springsnre spoke wt>re the requirements of the Act. 'l'hc whole thing was merely another attempt on the part of Government to build sehools in Brisbane without IJroper contributions from the inhabitants. If the trustees wanted £.300 they must rai~c the proper amount by subscription. 'l'hc Act laid down the specific amount that could be granted-a sum t>qual to the amount raised by subscription. It was simply anothc·r attempt to do what had often been clone with primary schools in Brisbanr, to build entirely on Governnwnt grants; and he was astonished that honourable mem­bers g<'ljfrally could not see it. If a man lived in the bush, or even at thirty or forty miles clistance from Brisbanr, and wanted to build a primary school, he hacl to raise thE' full vroportion of private subscriptions; but it was notorious that in Brisbarw this was clispensecl with. Ko one knPw that fact better than the honourable mrmbrr for \Yickham; for when he (J\Ir. Palmer) was on the Board of Education they had to build a school there entirely without printe contributions. It was a matter of necPssity; thPy could not get the money. The people

882 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppi,y.

who sent their daughters to a girls' Grammar School were in a position to subscribe towards the erection of a primary school. He intended to vote against the amount if it was pressed for.

The MINISTER FOR INs·rnucTION said that he would be quite willing to ask for votes for the assistance of girls' Grammar Schools in other parts of the colony if they wore in existence. 'l'he honourable mem· bu for Port Curtis was entirely wrong when he said that the amount of endow­ment could be increased by raising private subscriptionN, for it was limited ·by the Act. to not more than £1,000. As a matter of fact, the primte contributions were grratly in excess of the amount required to entitle the school to the £1,000. They were not allowed by law to increase the annual endowment, only to subsidize the building fund. ·with regard to the cases that honourable member had referred to, of the erection of primary schools without any private contribution, he could not see any great harm in it. But that was under the Board of Education. Now, the rule of demanding contri?utions in aid was rigidly adhered to, and 1f any favour at all was shown it was to outlying districts, where the people were in most need of assistance. The question before the committee had been put on a false issue. The only way in which the trustees of the Grammar School eould claim a subsidy of £500 would be by establishing a new and separate Grammar School, and this it was not considered desirable to do. The laws relating to secondary education were in a most unsettled and transitory state, and if they were not altered this session it would merely be because the House had no time. Two years ago they had affirmed the desirability of a change. If this change had been effected the amount would not have appeared on the Estimates, as it would have been obtained otherwise.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN would like to ask the Attorney-General why there was not an amount of £500 for the girls' Grammar School in Ipswich?

The J\fiXISTER FOR INSTRUCTION : There is not one there.

.Mr. O'SuLLIVAN reasserted that there was a girls' Grammar Sehool, and asked for what purpose Harris' s buildings had been purchased ? •

The MINISTER l'OR INsTRUCTION: A girls' primary school.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN said that the honour­able gentleman might. call it what he liked, it was praetically a Grammar School. The one on Wickham terrace had been for years a private school. He would ask why similar votes were not asked for Cooktown, Townsville, \V arwick, Rockhampton, and other places P Did the girls in those places not require l$rammar school education also P The M mister for Instruction had

given as a reason, that there was only one established, and that was in Brisbane. It was because parents were only encou­raged to break the law there.

The MnnsTER FOR INSTRUCTION said that the honourable member was entirely mistaken about the building in Ipswich; it was a State school-a primary school for girls; the Grammar Schools were under trustees. The girls' school at Brisbane had not been a private school at all; it had been entirely established by the trusters of the Grammar School who had raised the neces· sary funds, and got the mistresses.

J\fr. l) ALliiER: And dismissed one of them., too.

'l_'hc J\lrNISTER FOR INSTRUCTION said that the fact of a Grammar Sehool not retaining the same head teacher was not a reason for its ceasing to exist; he believed that the heads of both branches had been changed.

Mr. PALMER said that the proposition wa~ simply to add another £500 a-year to the already enormous endowment of the Brisbane Grammar School. These endow­ments had become of far greater value than had ever been expected, and he be­lieved the Government intended to give them another large sum as compensation for a piece of land which never belonged to them. He had stated in the House last. year that that land had been made a reserve for public purposes by the Mac­kenzie Ministry. The question for the committee was, whether they were prepared to add to the already enormous endowments of the Brisbane Grammar School another £500 a-year P

The PREJIIER said he was surprised at the opposition offered by the honourable member for Port Curtis to this vote. He (Mr. Douglas) thought that so ardent an advocate of public education would have been only too happy to recognize the really noble efforts of the trustees of the Brisbane Grammar School. It was a novel experi­ment, but it was generally admitted that it was a step in the right direction; and he was surprised that the honourable member had retrograded so far in his views on eel u­C<ttion as to oppose it. The question was one of the utmost importance, as it was now generally admitted that women's edu­cation should be in every respect on a par with that of men. In his opinion the trustees deserved entire praise for having taken on their shoulders this responsibility, which they were not in any way bound to do. He took exreption to the remark of the honourable member for Stanley, that they were educating girls to be ladies. The most prominent feature of the plan adopted in the ~irls' Grammar School was that it had been adapted to train useful and instructed" women, fitted for every position as daughters and mothers. The proposal before the committee was to vote a sum of mont>y

Supply. [4 SEPTE::IIBER.] Supply. 883

to a~sist in giving an eLlucation to girlH which had no~ previously been attempted, but which was generally felt to be nC'ces­sary. It was in the power of the House to >otc £500 or £5,000 for so good a purpose. He hoped that pPrmancnt building~ would soon be PrPcted ; but that was a task which should be undertaken by the citizcns of Brislmnc, and they should be prepared to put their hands in their pockc>ts for the purpose. He was sure that the LcgiHlature would assist them. He hoped that the >OtP before the conunittc>e would prrss.

J\1:r. P.U1IER congrrrtulrrtcd the Premier on ha1·ing at ll•ngth returned to hiH old "form," and on haYiug b:•gunagainlceturing honourabh• members ; but he denied that he (Mr. PalmPr) had in any way rPtro­graded in his views about edueation. The PrPmier, ·with his usual subtlety, had led the committee away to the gen'eraJ ques­tion of girls' schools ; but he wished to bring them back to the fact that this was an additional vote asked for the Brisbane Grammar 8chool. That was the question. "\Y ere they prepared to gh·e another £500 a-year to a xchool already too much endowed-a ~chool which was actually in clanger of becoming too rich? And it was just as bad for a sc-hool to be too rich as too poor. He ("Mr. Palmer) was in no clangl'l' of retrograding in his opinions on the education question, nor were the people of the colony likely to think so. He was now, and always had been, far in the >an of the Premier. If he were to agree to vote the £500 asked for he would think llE' was retrograclin". 'l'he J\1:iniskr for InHtrnc-tion had als~ enclea>onred to lead honourable mcmbPrs away on a false scent. Although additional subscriptions beyond £::1,000 might not entitle the trustees of the Grammar School to an additional endmnncnt, they should enable them to cnrry out their project without coming to thP House for assistance. He had no objec­tion to the establishment of a girls' Gram­mar School. He had exprPssly guarded himself on this point in the beginning of the de bate ; but if the trustees could not do it. out of their own resourees they had no right to attempt it. They had no right to eome to the House for as~istance ; they should haYe applied, not necessarily to Bri~ bane, but to the country for assistance.

The MINISTER FOR IxsTRUCTION said that the Brisbane Grammar School did not gd a large enclowment,-it only got £1,000 a-year.

Mr. MciLwlLUTH said it got £0,000 for part of its land.

'rhe NhNrsTER FOR IxsTRUCTION said that all the money the trmtees got they wanted for buildings ; their land brought in no in<·ome. The honourable member for Port Curtis spoke as if the land endow­ment \l'as income-as if the school got more than £1,000 a-year from Government. He

admittPd that the school hacl a handsome endowment in land, but the trustees required it all to pay for buildings.

Mr. FRASER said that he was not going to say a word against secondary education for girls; but it was a question whether the step taken by the trust6'es of the Gram­mar School in establishing the girls' school had been a very wise one. Since its estab­lishment it had not been carried on in at all a srrtisfactory manner, but it hrrd effectu­ally shut up all the existing establishments for training girls. People living in the suburbs were not able to send their girls in the hot summer weather all the way to the Grammar School. He was not dis­posed to vote for the item. It was quite competent for the trusteps to establish a girls' Hehool, but it should have been attached to the existing building. He understood that th"ey intended to erect a building on a site which might, as far as people living in mrrny parts of the town were concerned, be at the other end of the colony, as they would not be able to avail themselves of it. He would like to know when they would arrive at the stage in which Grammar Schools would be under Government control P When a dispute occurred now there was no mpans of getting at the root of the matter. It rtppearecl that the girls' Grammar School had forfeited the confidence of many of the parents of children, rrncl an opposition school hrrd been established which was more con­siderable in numbers, and, he belie>ed, in efficiency.

'!_'he 1\ll:rNISTER FOR INSTRUCTION would be glad if all Grammar Schools were under Government control; but there was no law to that effect in existence. The Bill before the House proposed to remedy the defect.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that he had long thought Gr~mmar Schools ought to be in­spected. As a rule, the trustees of these schools were not selected for their scholas­tic attainmPnts, but rather for their breeches-pocket intellect. He would say nothing against the head teachers at any of the Grammar Schools in the colony, but it was on coming clown to a lower grade that he found cause for complaint. There was no power of removing a man from one place to another; trustees could only do so by dismissing him. In Ips­wich there had been men as teachers in these schools who, if they could have been transferred to the National schools, would have found thPir proper level; but, owing to there being no provision to r~move thl'lll from one school to another, the1r ser­vices wPrc simply dispensed with. Some of the head teachers had complained to him of this as a real grievance. He was astonished to find that the Premier had attrrcked him so warmly. He had simply stated inferentially that it seemed the intention of the Government to bring up

884 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

the girls of BriRbane aH young la(lies, and the boys as Ci>il servant~; but his oppo­sition was disarmed ;ylwn the l\I inistcr for Instruction saiu he was IJrepared to grant the same assistance to other towns ;yherc Grammar ~ehools were established, for he knew Ycry well there was not the slightest prospeet of eountry boys eYPr getting into the Civil senice. He hoped the eommittce mmld pnss the yotc.

Question-That the item of £500, girls' st'lwol, BrisbarH', be omitted from the proposc(l vote-put.

The committee divided as follows :­AYES, 13.

1\f""·'J'S. Palmer, \\'alsh, O'Sullinw, l<'raser, :\I ell wraith, King·, I<' ox, }faC'rossan, t:ltevenson, '\V. :Scott, Low, 1\foreheacl, and Ivory.

::"roEs, 17. l\Ic,srs. Griffith, Douglas, G. Thorn, Dick8on,

l\Iilcs, Pt'!tigrew, Buzacott, J\feLean, Kings-· ford, Hoekings, Bell, J. Seott, Grimes, :Stewart, lleattie, :Foote, and Tyre!.

Question, therefore, resolYed m the negative.

l\lr. l\lonEHEAD said he iYas far from satisfied with the result of the diYision, and he wi~hed to cntPr hi~ protest ag·ainst thi.-; enormous expl'nditure of public money on edueation in Brisbane, while the outs;de dis­t.riets were ldt destitute o£ instruction for childrPn. He hoped some of the members of the committeP would reeonsider thP Yote they had just gin'n, and that thosl' mPm­bers who sent their l'hilclrl'n to this Gram­mar School iYOuld ha;-e the good taste not to Yote. The faets hacl been clearly pointed out by the honourable nwmbPr for Port Curtis, and hP could not undqrstand iYhy gentlemen who reprPsented districts outside of Brisbane shonld han >Oted for an increase of taxation, which wonld not benefit their constituents one iota. The StatP, in his opinion, had no right to give anything beyond a primary education to the children of the colony, and he protestpd strongly against a high-class education bei11g gin'n to the children of the inhabitants of Bris­bane, while the children of the intt'rior were allowed to go unPdncatecl altogether. It almost made one's blood boil, as the honourable member for \Yarrpgo was in the habit of saying, to know that the eolony was callecl U]lon to spend £ll0,000, or at the rate of lOs. vor head of the population, to educate the children of Brisbane. The committee was asked to pamper the inhabi­tants of Brisbnne-for the divi~ion was almost entirrly a Brisbane division-by giving £i500 to the alrC'ady over-fPd Bris­bane Grammar School. He would movl', as an amendment, that this vote be reduced by £.1.!)() lUs.

llfr. J. ScoTT wislwcl, bl'Ioro the ques­tion was put, to ask wltethc>r it ;yas in order, as the committee had alreadv decided that this partieular yote should bland unaltered P

After some discussion on the point of order,

'l'lw CHAIIDIAX rnlP<l tlmt, according to the 2Hl>it ~Handing Order, the question could not be put. That order was as follows:-

" '\VheJ'e it has been proposed 1 o omit or reduce items in a vote, the quPstion shall be afterwards put upon the original vote, or upon the reduced vote, as the case may be, without a1uendment. '' Any item subsequent to the £.)00 coulcl be opera tPd on ; but he eould not allow a quc>stion to be put whieh would aficet a ;-otc that had bL·cn already passed.

Mr. JVfoiWHKU> was quite willing to gi>e ;vay, ancl would move that the i1·holo vole bP rPClu('ed by £.J.\J9 l(Js.

The Cu.un1ux said the amendment was out of orclc-r, as nothing could be put which i\-ould afi'eet a >ote that had already been pa~sNl, all<l if the amt•Julment Wl'l'<' earri<'d it woulcl eause a ecr!ain rcduetion to be made in the item for the girls' Grammar Sehool.

J\lr. \Y.u.sn sug~cstl'd that the it.Pm should be withrlraiYn and a short Bill introduePd, asking Parliament for a sum of mOJH'\' for thi~ new inst.itution.

Origi;ml qm·stion put and past<ecl. The l\ltxJsTER FOR lxsTJWCTIO.Y movPcl

that the sum of £8,t50 be granted for OrphanngPs. The only increase in this vote on that of last year was the sum of £.:1'1) in aid of the orphnnage building at Roekhampton. Last year the-re was a small balance of £200 or £:300, which would probably be suffieient to eoYer the expenses of iucre:tsl'd attendance in the orphanagl's during the 11resent year.

1\lr. 'YALSH would like to know wlwt "-as the highest a;-eragc agl' of the children in the Dr]Jhanagt'S, what kind of instl'U(•tion they recPiYed, and what became of the girls on lca>iug the institutions P

The JYinnsTER I'Oll IxsTnUCTIOX replied that in the Diamnntina Orphanage the children, with ono exc·cption, iH're all under ten years of age, and there was n rpgnlar t<ehool conductt-d there for tho~e who were old enough to attend. In the St. Vincent Orrhnnage, thL' highest age at whid1 ehilu­ren WL're allowed to remain was, lin'lve for boys arul fourtcl'n for girls : but the great majority of the children in that institution wPre under ten yenrs of ago. The educa­tion there was imvart eel by the Sisters of Mercy in charge of the establishmonL

lYfr. IYALRH n~.lred what became of the girls over the ago of t.Pn years P ' The J\f INISTI;R FOR IKsTRUC'TIOX rrplied that some were adopted by respectable people, othPrs went out to SC'r;-ice, and others were discharged or returned to their parent~ or relative~. Applit·ations for ehildrcn "el'P rnt<>rtaincd by a ladies' eom­mittc•e, who took ev<>ry pctin~ to asce-rtain that the children wou!d bt' properly taken

Suppl,y. [4, SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 885

eare of in their new honws. It was an informal way of carrying out tlu: boarding­out system, and he had hoped to introduce during the present session a Bill to put that system on a satisfactory fooling ; but he no~ feared, from the state of public busi­Jwss, that he should be obliged to give up the idea for the ]H't•sent yea~.

J.\Ir. GRnms said he noticed that the sum of £:l, 7 •30 was put duw!t for the Diamantina Orphanage, while £;3,750 was put clown for tlw St. Yinrent Orphanage. The latter was a denominational institution, and. the body represented by it numbered only one­third of the population. It seemed to him as if a number of those who did not bdong to that body were taken to the Roman Catholic Orphanage, or else that that por­tiOli of the community were not doing what they ought to provide for their own orphans.

The JUrNISTER FOR IxsrRUCTION said that the difference was in the number of children, and he did not think there was any reaROn to suppose that thc•re were any children there.who had no right to be therP. According to the last return there were 11-18 children; but the average of the year had varied from thrrt number to 191. I"ast year a sum of £;l,:~24 was spent on the St. Vincent OrphanagP, and £2,427 on the Diamantina OrphanagP, rrnd a smrrll bnl­ancz' upon additiourrl buildings.

l\fr. BELL wished to know in what way the rdigion o£ the children was to be decided upon r

'I'he 1\i(rsrsTER FOR IssTRUC'TIOX said that they genprally took the rPligious cl<'no­minations of the parents.

J\Ir. GRDIES asked what protection the Government had against chil<lren being sPnt to the Orphanage who wPre not really orphans P

The 1\i(rxrsTER FOR Ixsrrn:rrrox saitl there was no grl'at protection, mHl that sonw law on the subjeet was YPry mueh rPquiretl. At present it wa,s found im1Jossihle to compel the relatives of ehilllren in the orphanage' to support them. The Gov­ernment had to get OVt'r the diffieulty in the best way they could bv saying Hurt the children would be SPnt home on a certain day, and, as a rule', when that was distinctly understood, the parties submitted to take the children away.

1\Ir. PAL11ER was quite awarr !hat ad van· tage was taken of those institutions by a greilt number of persons, but tlwre wa~ no renwdy for it; of that he was quite cer­tain. He had always been of opinion that it was much cheaper to take. children into the orphanages and briTig them up than to leave them till they grew up, to be takPn in charge by the police. They were neg· lected children to all intents and purposes. 'i'he money spent on the orphrrnages was not very great, and eYen if it were, it was,

he considered, the duty of the State to take charge of those neglected children rather than leave them to grow up to become inmatrs of penal estrrblishments.

J\Ir. PrlTTIGI!EW said that the reason why more money was requil'l•d for the St. Vincent than for the Diamantina Orphanage wrrs, because the Rornrrn Catholics took more care of their children, and did not allow them to leave at such an early age. He had seen poor children from the Dia­mantina Orphanage very badly treated by so-rallt•cl respectable people, who gave them no wages, but undertook to clothe aml educate them,-insteacl of doing which, however, they simply destroyed them. He thought it would be much better to keep the children in the orphanage till they were twelve years of age, when they would be old enough to become useful to their relatives, who would take them away. It would, in his opinion, b,, to the a cl vantage of the Dimnantimt institution if the persons connected with it took rxample by the St. Vincent Orphanng<', and prrid more atten­tion to the children. As rPgarded the boarding-out system, he believed it was altogPthPr a rotten one. .

JUr. PAL}!Eit said that when the Esti­mates were last under consideration a. sum was put clown for a permanent building, and at the time he called the attention of the Gon'rmm'nt to the fear of fire in the present building; yet he found from the daily papers that the Government had bP3n adding two fresh rooms to the Diamrrntina Orphanage. He was also informed that rrlthough water wrrs laid on to the buihling there were no hydrants to be used in case of fire. He thought it would be much bettPr if the GoYPrnment would come down and ask for a sum of money to erect a proper building, and do away with the system of sending one set of orphans to one pla<'e a.nd one to another. He brggPd to eall the rrtt<'ntion of the Government parti­cularly to the fact that there were at }ll'PSPnt no means of rxtinguishing rr firt', whilst the buildi11g ought to b,, surrmmclecl with hydrants.

The J\frXISTER FOR lNSTIWCTION said he might inform the honourable memlwr that the expenditure was authorized months ago £or carrying water OYer the building, but the pipes were found to be too small. The reason why a new building was not erected was that the pre~ent law was so unsatisfac­tory that it was diJiicult to form an estimate as to the nrrture of the building rPquirl'd or the prinrirl~?. on whieh the institution shonltl b,, con• luetJd. \Vith regard to the additions recently made to the Diamantiua Orphanage, he quite agreed with the hon­ourable rncmbnr that it was inadvisable to make any more; but in the present instance it was found to be absolutely neressary to rrovide some extra accommodation, as the school was so fulL It was also considered

886 Sztpply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

advisable to separate from the others any children who were suffering from disease.

Mr. BEATTIE was glad that the honour­able member for Port Curtis had brought the want of a sufficient supply of water under the notice of the Attorney-General, as he found that nothing had been done tc assist in extinguishing fires or to prevent fires. There was not the slightest means of escape for the children should a fire break out ; and it was horrifying to think that, should a fire occur, there would be a great loss of life in consequence of the inadequate supply of water.

The MINISTHR FOR INsTRUCTION could only repeat that the expenditure had bt,en authorized for a necessary supply of water. He did not think there was any reason to apprehend the loss of life suggested by the honourable member, as there was plenty of access and egress to and from the wards.

The PREli:IHR said that, of course,.the building was an unsuitable and ram­shackle old place, and he much regretted that the vote authorized by the House last year was not made use of at once. There was no more difficulty, in his opinion, in applying a vote in the way mentioned than there was at Rockhampton. It could be done here by an Order in Council, in the same way as that by which effect was given in regard to the Rockhampton Orphanage.

Mr. MACROSSAN said that when the salary of the visiting surgeon to vessels was bdore the committee, exception was taken to it on the ground that that gentle­man was also paid £150 a-year as Inspec­tor of Orphanages. It was then agrePd that the sum should be reduced, and he would, therefore, move that the item be reduced by the sum of £150.

The MINISTER FOR INSTRUCTION trusted that the reduction would not be acceded to, as the duty of the Inspector of Orphanages was a very important one and required a most trustworthy person. He was not aware that there were any abuses, but they must always be on the look-out for them, and, if any existed, the inspector should be such a man as to deal with them without fear or favour. For such services he did not think that £150 a-y<>ar was too much. He would also remind the committee that it was not pro­posed to strike off an increase, but to reduce a salary which had been paid to a gentleman for two years at any rate.

Mr. MACROSSAN said that the gentleman in question had been receiving the salary in a surreptitious way, because had his salary been all put in one sum the commit­tee would never have voted it. The Attorney-General had told them that the duty of Inspector of Orphanages was a very important one ; but if that was the case, he would ask the honourable gentle­man who did Dr, Ohallinor's duty when he

was sixty clays on board a vessel in the Bay? He believPd that £,1,30 was very good pay inclPrcl for an officer whose only duty was visiting ves,~els and inspecting orphanages, and that at that salary he would be better paid than many others .•

Mr. O'SuLLIVA~ should like to know who did the work before Dr. Challinor was appointed, and at what salary? He remembered hearing that there was a sus­picion that the office was made for Dr. Challinor ; and he also heard that it was the intention of the GovernmPnt to give the gentleman who had been performing the same duties for eight or nine years, ancl who had had to keep a horse, a gratuity of £100.

The MrxiSTHR FOR I~sTRUCTIO~ said that lVIr. McDonnell had succeeded Mr. Manning as Inspector of Orphanages for some years, and received a bonus when he discontimwd performing those duties. It had formerly been the usual practice to appoint some oflicer high up in the Govem­ment service as Inspector of Orphanages.

Mr. \VALSH said that when the question of the salary o£ the visiting surgeon (Dr. Challinor) was under consideration there seemed to be a detrrmination on the part of the committee, seeing that there was another item in another part of the Esti­matPs connrl'ted with that gentleman, to reduce his salary ; and he renwm bPrPCl that some membrr of the Govprnment poinkd out that if a reduction was to Le made it would better to make it when the salary of Inspector of Orphanages emne o;L It was, therpfore, clearly a breaC'h of fmth for the Government not to propose that rPclnetion now.

The MINISTER FOR INSTRUCTIO~ said that the salary had bPen paid for t"·o years. He rememberpd that there was a long dis­cussion on it last year, when the question was whether the salary of the officer shonl<l be refused. The committee did not usually rNluce salaries, especially when an offil'er receiving it had bePn for many yc·ars in the service.

Mr. MciLwRAITH said that the salary was eommencecl in April, 1875; but it first appeared in the Sur)plementary Estimates in such a small form that no one took any notice of it, the amount being only about £25.

The l\frNISTHR FOR INSTRUC'TIO~ pointed out that the money must have been voted for 1875-76 and 1876-77.

Mr. MACROSSAN said that there was not a member of the committee who knew until last year how Dr. Challinor was paid; but that as soon as they found out, a general objection was raised to it. Had the Gov­ernment shown, in the first instance, how that (\entleman wall to bP paid, he w-as quite certam that the committee would never have submitted to it.

[4 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 887

The l\frNISTER FOR INSTRUCTION said that before honourable members insisted upon the reduction, he must point out to them that it was a most unprecedented thing to do, to reduce the salary of a Civil servant. against whom no complaint had been made. 'l'he officer being absolutely necessary, it was a most unusual step to propose to reduce his salary, and, unless it was wished to drive him out of the service, he could not understand the object of the reduction. No reason had been given to show why this officer's salary should be reduced. It was a very necessary office ; the most careful inspection was required to prevent abuses creeping in ; and it was important that the officer should receive an adequate salary.

Mr. P AL1IER said that a very good reason had been given for the reduction of the salary. The vote was smuggled through the House last year, through the way in which Dr. Challinor's salary was divided. It had been maintained that when an officer held two appointments, for each of which he received a salary, a foot-note should be put under each. This foot-note was omitted last year, and it was again omitted this year. He thought, and a good many other honourable members were of the same opinion, that £550 per annum for the services which Dr. Challinor performed was a great deal too much; and that the salary given him for inspecting orphanages was too high, seeing that the duties of the office were performed for eight or ten years by a gentleman who only got £100.

The lYIINISTER FOR IxsTRUCTION said that the gentleman who received £100 a­year did not do anything like the work Dr. Challinor did. The inspection was merely nominal then, but it was actual now, and Dr. Challinor was responsible for the returns upon which the capitation allow­ance was based. As to the accusation of smuggling the vote through last year, he thought, from the very considerable discussion that took place upon the subject then, that there was not a single member who did not now know that Dr. Challinor was also in receipt of another salary, although the foot-note was accidentally omitted; the omission might be a very good reason for censuring someone; he was prepared to take the blame ; but it was no good rPason for depriving an officer of £100 a-year.

Mr. PALMER maintained that a great deal more work was clone by the previous Inspector of Orphanages (Mr. McDonnell) than was done now, almost the whole management of the institution devolving upon him.

The J\fiNISTER FOR INSTRUCTION said that Mr. McDonnell did the work during his usual office hours, and it could not, therefore, have been very heavy. Actual inspection was now required, and it was a

very important check upon the exp~nditure of the department.

Mr. PALMER said that if Dr. Challinor cUd his duty as viHiting surgeon for St. Helena and Dunwich, and also the dutiPs required by the quarantine rPgulations, he could not attend to the inspection of the orphanages.

The MINISTER FOR I:~~sTRUCTION said that Dr. Challinor had ample time for the inspection of the orphanages. He inspected every institution once a-week. Honourable members must bear in mind that he had to keep a horse to perform these duties, and that if a salary of only £50 were voted, it would not pay the cost of travelling to the different institutions. It would certainly be necessary to keep up some system of inspection.

lYfr. MACROS SAN said he had no desire, and he did not think any other member had any desire, to drive Dr. Challinor out of the service ; but he was of opinion that he was receiving far too high a salary for the work he was doing. As comparison had been made between Mr. McDonnell and Dr. Challinor, he would defy the Minister to show that Mr. McDonnell had not the same work to do as Inspector of Orphanages as Dr. Challinor. As regarded the state­ment that Dr. Challinor visited the insti­tutions once a-week, he would ask whether he went there once a-week during the sixty days he was in quarantine 1' The argu­ment that it was unprecedented to attPmpt to redure an officer's salary after it had been rereived some time, was the same as was used last session-after Dr. Challinor had been receiving his salary in a most unprecedented way. Had the salary been brought forward in a fair and honPst way last year, £550 would not have been voted ; but it was introduced surreptitiously by the Government, and voted by a mistake. He maintained that £450 was quite suffi­cient for the duties Dr. Challinor per­formed, and that if that gentleman did not see fit to do the work, another offirer equally as suitable could be obtained. He might mention that Mr. McDonnell had also to keep a horse, but he received nothing for it.

Mr. MclLwRAITH said that Dr. Challi­nor was only voted £:300 last year, as visiting surgeon for St. Helena and Dun­wich. How came it that he got an addi­tional £100 this year P

The MINISTER FOR INSTRUCTION said that £100 additional was afterwards voted on the Supplementary Estimates, and it was affirmed on a division that the salary should be £-100 a-year.

Mr. MACROSSAN said he thought it was a most extraordinary mistake that £300 should be put on the Estimates-in-Chief if the proper salary was £400.

The MINISTER FOR INSTRUCTIO:N said he was not responsible for the Colonial Se ere·

888 Supp1y. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

tary's DPparhnent last year. ThP mistake was explained when the E~timatcR-in­Chi~·£. were going through, and the £100 acldltwnal was Yoted when the Supple­mentai·y Estimates were brought on.

Mr. MommEAD said he should like to know what peculiar qualificatio11s the Yisit­ing surgeon for Dunwich and St. Helena po~sessed for inspecting the orphanages, and why Mr. ~IcDonnell vms r0placed by a gentleman who might be at any momrnt called from 13ris banc to perform duties in connection with the quarantine regulations ? 'l'he inspectorship of the orphanages should be in the hands of a gentleman who was able to attend to any pi·essing call to Yisit them. He also maintained that the two offiees Dr. Challinor held should. not be mixed up in any way.

Mr. 'VALSH said he did not consider it clesira ble that a gentleman who had duties to p,n·form in comwction with the quaran­tine regulations should be Inspector of Orphanages.

The MrxiSTER FOR IxsTlniCTION said it was thought necessary to get a gentleman to fill the ofilre of Inspector of Orphanages who was already in receipt of a good salary for another office, in whom full con­fidence could be placed, and who wn,s abb to form an opinion as to the sanitary arrangements of the orphanages. Dr. Challinor was qualifierl for the office be­cause he was a doctor, because he could be thoroughly relied upon, and becau~e he had a rt>pntation for finding out things that ought to he discoyered. The putting clown of hi~ ~alary at £300 in the Estimates-in­ChiL'f last year was probably a clerical mistake.

Mr. ::VIr ILwRAITH said that what the honourable gentleman called a mistake was just what justified the honourable member for Port Curtis in saying that the yote had been smuggled through the House. The explanation given by .Ministers last year dilTere,l, as he rememberPd it, entirely fl'Om that described by the l\iiniskr for liHtrurtion. VVhen the item came on for r1iscnssion first, the Attorney-General said that the remainder of the sum appeared in anotlwr item on the Supplementary Esti­mates ; and when those Estimates came on it was CX}Jlained that the sum had been voted the }JrPvious year. The whole thing haLl bL'en managed in a most disingpnuons manner, for the total salary of £550 would neyer have been Yotecl if it had appeared fully bdore honourable membrrs.

The ~frxrsTER FOR IxsTnucrrox said that the honourable member had been refprring to the wrong J<~stimates ; the full amount voted to the iHRpertor appeared in the Estim.ates of Ul7G-7.

Mr. 1lciLwRAITH said that it appt'arcd as a blank iu 1::>7·~-G, which looked yery suspicious.

The ~liXISTER FOR INSTRUCTION said tha.t the salary wa,s not put clown to the oillee then ; therc was a sum of £·100 on the Estimates-in-ChiP£, a,ncl £150 voted on the Supplementary Estimates for the same office, unclE'r the head of inspector, visiting surgeon, and for allowances.

;\fr. JYfciLWHAITH repeated that the man­ner in which the votes had been put down on the Estimates showed the disingenuous­ness of the GoYernment, and justified the accusation that they had smuggled the in­spector's salary through the House last year. Now honoumble members were told that the salary should be yoted because it had been paid for two years.

Mr. \V ALSH sa,id that he thought Dr. Hobbs had been Yisiting surgeon to the orphanages.

The Mr~rsTER FOR INsTRUCTION said tlwt Dr. Challinor's salary was put clown for 187 5-G as iHRpector and Yisiting surgeon. At present he was not acting in the latter capacity.

.Mr. IYORY said that the sole reason why they were asked to yote this salary was, apparently, because it had been voted the two preYious ypars. Because they had ina(lYertently done this, they wcre asked to yotc for this gentleman a salary over and aboYe his merits. It was eYidPnt the matter had not been brought forward in a direct form before.

Mr. MAcnossA~ said that Dr. Hobbs haclnner been visiting surgeon at the St. VinePnt's Orphanage. 'Vhen the people there wanted a surgeon they sent to town for one.

Mr. MoREHEAD said that the only pos­sible benefit to be derincl from Dr. Challi­nor Yi~iting the orphanagL'Woulcl be deriYed from his going there in a medical capacity. He would ask, if this was not the rase, why a change had been made, and why Mr. ~fcDonnell, who was an effieit>nt officcr, was no longer inspector? He maintained that the two oilices held by Dr. Challinor werE' incongruous, and the duties of the one interfered with the clue performanee of the work of the other.

lYfr. PETTIGREW said that there nn.tst be something extraordinary about so small a vote to provoke such an amount of discus­sion. I£ they wanted an inspector he did not see why Dr. Challinor should not be a thoroughly competent man to fill the oflieP, and more so than a non-professional man. He thought that Mr. McDonnell, although otherwise a most eflicient oilicer, was leRs qualified as inspcctor on account of his not being a doctor. Dr. Challinor did visit the orphanages, and inspect them effol'tually ; perhaps that wa,s the reason an objection had bPen raised to the yote of his salary. Rurely £15(1 was not a large amount to a~k for this service. The orphanages cost large sums annually, and it was necPHsary to ha Ye a competent man for impector, cnpn-

Supply. (4 SEPTE~fBER.] Supply. 889

ble of seeing justice done to the children. Dr. Challinor was, in his opinion, a most competent man ; rather opinionated, but not a worse inspector on that account. He would vote for the item.

Question-That the sum of £8,150 only be granted-put.

The committee divided. AYES, 10.

Messrs. Palmer, O'Sullivan, Mcilwraith, \Valsh, Ivory, Morehead, Macro ss an, Stevenson, \V. Scott, and J. Scott.

NOES, 19. Messrs. Douglas, Dickson, Griffith, Miles,

McLean, Pettigrew, Tyrel, Fraser, Garrick, Fox, Beor, Beattie, Foote, ::itewart, Low, Grimes, Kingsford, Hockings, and Buzacott.

Question, therefore, resolved in the nega­tive.

The original vote was then put and passed.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER in proposing a vote of £4,07 4 for the Treasury Depart­ment, said that when the Estimates were framed it had been his intention to have asked for one or two increases, which, in spite of the laudable spirit of economy dis­played by the committee he thought would have been passed; but owing to recent legislative action, which would necessitate changes in the Treasury, he had only been able to ask for the same votes as last year, with an addition of £19 increase to two mes­sengers who had been several years in the department, and for whom he asked this small increase. There were many other deserving cases for increases which would no doubt have been considered on their own merits, but he should not bring them for­ward on the present occasion.

Mr. MoREHEAD asked why all those cases were to be abandoned, if the officers in question were such deserving men?

1'he CoLONIAL TREASURER said he had already mentioned that, owing to legisla­tion that had taken place this session, cer­tain changes would probably be made in the department which would lead to pro­motions ; and, in the face of those promo­tions, he did not see his way to ask for an increase in addition.

J\ilr. PETTIGREW wished to know if the promotions were to go in the department, or whether some outsider would be brought in?

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said it had been his practice, during the time he had been at the head of the department, to endeavour to give promotions to officers as vacancies arose, and to place new officers at the foot of the ladder. 'Without giving any more distinct pledge, he should en­rleavour to carry out that line of action when the contemplated changes took place in the department.

Mr. IvoRY said he should like to know what was the recent legislation referred to

1877-3 K

by the honourable the Colonial Treasurer, and who were to be promoted ? It was only due to the committee that they should be inarle acquainted with the changes that were to take place.

Mr. W ALSH said, if the committee were to vote salaries they ought to know what they were for. Unless they had this infor­mation before them they might find that the result of these contemplated changes, whatever they might be, would be to increase the Estimates next year.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER saidhethought it was unusual to ask such a question as that put by the honourable member for the Burnett, inasmuch as the Executive themselves had not yet had an opportunity of considering the question of promotions. There was a possibility of changes being made in the department, and beyonrl that he could give the House no distinct promise.

Mr. MoREHEAD said he would ask the Colonial Treasurer a direct question. Was it the intention of the Government to remove the present Under Secretary to the Trea­sury and place him in the position of Auditor-General?

The CoLONIAL TREAS'URER replied that as soon as the office of Auditor-General was vacant, if the Under Secretary to the Treasury was inclined to accept it, it woulrl be offered to him. But as the office was not yet vacant it would have been improper for him to have made such a Rtatement, unless a direct question had been put to him.

Mr. PETTIGREW wished to say that as far as the Treasurer's estimates were con­cerned-and, in his humble judgment, the Treasury was certainly, without exception, the best conducted Government office in Brisbane-ho would not offer the slightest opposition to any of the items.

Question put and passed. The CoLoNIAL TREASURER moved that

the sum of £635 be granted for the Stamp Office. In this estimate there were two increases of salary asked for. It was pro­posed to give the clerk in charge an increase of £25. That officer had been a long time in the service, and his duties had very largely increased of late years. The other case was that of a junior clerk, whose salary it was proposed to increase from £140 to £160. He considered that this officer was justly entitled to even a larger increase than the one asked for, as he was entrusted with very responsible duties, and the increase would be a recognition of his ability and integrity. The contingencies showed an increase of £20, making a total increase on the whole vote of £75. He would remind the committee, however, that from this department Government received a revenue of £50,000 per annum.

Question rmt and passed. The CoLONIAL TREASURER moved that

£2,300 be granted for the printing and

890 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

lithographic department. He pointed out that there was a decrease in the salaries on account of one of thE' lithographic printers having retired and his place· having been filled by a junior workman at a salary of £20 less. In the contingencies there was an increase of £400, caused by the department requiring an additional amount of :paper for issuing securities, the stock whwh was on hand having been exhauRted by the issue of debentures last year, and a fresh supply having bE'en indented for, in expectation of a new issue.

Q.uestion put and passed. 'l'he CoLONIAL TuEASURER moved that

£18,500 be granted for miscellaneous services. Although this item showE'd a decrease of £5,000, that decrease, he wished to point out, was only nominal, inasmuch as the items of unrendercd claims and miscellaneous were purposely omitted, in order that they might be inserted in the Rupplementary Estimates, so that the attention of the committee might be directed to all· expenditure in excess of Parliamentary appropriation which was incurred in each department.

Mr. BELL thought that the plan would result in an unnecessary burdening of the Supplementary Estimates.

The· CoLONIAL TREASURER rE'plied that it would enable the committee to see what devartments were exeeecling their appro­priation, and the ineentin to the depart­ments to delay sending in their Yonchprs at the end of the finan!'ial year would be done away with.

Mr. P ALMER said the real rea~ on for the change was that it suited the Treasurer's Financial Statement, as it would enable him to show a larger balance than he would actually have at the end of the year. The Colonial Treasurer could not throw dust in the eyes of :honourable members. Every sum he managed to cut off from the Estimates-in-Chief helpPd to swell the imaginary surplus, and he might. just as well have told them that at once, for every­body knew it.

JYir. BELL said he hardly thought that was thP object of the Colonial Treasurer, for the itl•m in question was so small, but still it would have that tendencv. 'l'he question was, whether it would not"be much better to have as large a numbPr of items as possiblE', and as full as pos~iblP, placed on the Estimates-in-Chief, with a YiPw to kePp­ing down the Supplementary Estimates; and he would throw out that suggestion for the sake of future Treasurers and also for the convenience of the committee.

JYir. ]./[elL wRAITH said the effl'ct uf the change would be simply to complicate still further the Supplementary Estimates, for the money would have been spent before those Estimates were brought before the committee.

The CoLOXIAL 'l'REASURER said he was 1·eluctant to increase the Supplementary Estimates, evPn by the small amount of £4,000 or £5,000; but he thought that it would be advisable to do so in order to allow the House an opportunity of discuss­ing the expenditure of the departments in excess of Parliamentary appropriations.

Mr. JYiciLWRAITH said it was not a mat­ter of £"t,OOO or £5,000 only, for last year it was a matter of £11,000. Last year £1,565 were voted for miscellaneous, whereas £5,105 had actually been expended.

'l'he CoLOXIAL TREASURER said that the balance between the appropriation of last year and the amount actually expended would be laicl before the House on the Supplenwntary Estimates, and that fact still further c«mfirmed his statement as to the necessity of the whole amount for unrcnderPd claims and miscellaneous being brought forward in that form. The sums vreviously voted for those purposes had never met the full exvenditure ; and it would be better that the total amount so spent should be placed on the Supplemen­tary Estimates, than that the committee should imagine that this amount coyerecl the requirements of the departments.

Thir. BELL said he could see no reason why the Treasurer should not be able to make as reasonably good an estimate for those requirements as for the others. If the amount voted in prcYious years had bePn insufficient, why not ask for a larger sum, {'\'l'n at. the risk of increasing the Esii­mates ? 1 t was not a sufficient exeuse to say that the previous Estimates had not met the amount expended.

Mr. MchwRAITH said the Colonial Trea­surer's argunwnt about placing the extra expenditure on the Supplementary Esti­mates was, in fact, an argument against EstimatPs-in-Chief altogether. He hoped the honourable gentleman would give the committee some idea as to how the extraor­dinary expenditure of last year came to be incurred.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said it would be rather a difficult matter for a Treasurer to foresee the amount of unrendcrcd claims and miscPllaneous requirPments of the diffPreut departments during the forth­coming year. I,ast year the miscellaneous vote had been largt>ly increased by pur­chases of land in the north, and for the additional requirements of the Ijands Office in Brisbane. Those items must have been entirclv unforesPcn when the vote was placpc( on the Estimates last year. \Yhen provision was made on the Estimates for unrendered claims and miscellaneous there :''aS a greater inclination Oil the part of the Government to operate upon the vote than there would be if it was known that each item expended haLl to come before the House in detail. He was inclined to think that it was yery little

Suppl,y. [4 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 891

use making partial provision, and he drd not think that any Treasurer could make complete provision, as he could not foresee what the various departments would r<'quire. -Whilst the Treasurer might be able to forecast the expenditure of his own department, he could not do so for the other departments. He believed that the change he had made, by omitting those two item~, might be beneficial in one resprrt-namely, that when the various amounts came to be ('OnsiderPd by the committee in the Supple­mentary Estimates there >ery likely would bC' some reductions madC' in the amounts.

Mr. BELL said the honourable gentleman tried to make out that it was the duty of the House to check the expenditure of the departments, whereas that ought to be done by the Executive; and it showed weakm'ss on the part of the Govprnment if they could not check expt>nditure within the compass that the House desired it to be kept.

Mr. MciL>YHAITH said tlu're was one point in connection with the >ote to whieh he wished to draw the attention of the Treasurer, and that was to the word " sub­di,·ision" being put above the various services under the head of "miscella­neous." He eould not see what connec­tion there was between the "proportion telegraph receipts due other coloniPs," "commission, exehange, &c.," "unforeseen elaims and miHcellaneou~." and "unfore­~cen expPnse~ ;" and, therpfore, he thought that the ~ubdivision ~lwuld be struek out altogether in the presPnt instance, although he could quite understand the use of it in many other cases. Ho ·would alw point out that by the way in which the item 11·as put down, it was almost impossible to say how the money had been spent ; however, his objection was that thPre should be the word subdivision at all.

The CoLONIAL TREASUR}m said that the remarks of the honourable member were Yery pertinent, but it had been the custom for the Treasury estimates to be brought up in the same shape. He had, however, uo objection to strike out the word "sub­division."

lVIr. ~IciLwR.I.ITH mond, that the word " subdivision" be struck out

Question put and pasHed. Mr. lYiciLWRAITH should like to know

what 11·ere the "unforeseen expenses" that were indicated by the sum of £2,000 P

The CoLONLU TREAsrmm said that up to the 30th ,June last tlwy amounted to nearly £1,300, and included a variety of small sums ; the balanr·e rPmaining would go to reduce "unrenderPtl daims."

Mr. MchwRAlTH thought that they should strike out the item altogether, as it was not wanted, and pul it into the Sup· plementar.> E·-timalL'i, the &ame a:; nnren­dered daim '·

The CoLoNIAL TREASURER did not see why the it~m should be struck out, as it had always been on the Estimates. As he had remarked before, it included numerous small amounts spread over the various departments.

Mr. BELL thought the Colonial Treasurer was now arguing directly opposite to his previous position, as he· was using the same argument that the honourable member for ::Yfa.ranoa and others had taken np in regard to the two last items.

Mr. Melt wRAITH said that the only dif­ference would be that it woulclnot stop the Government from spending money at all, but would merely show the committee how the money was spent. If it was placed on the Supplementary Estimates it might still be passed in a lump sum. In its present form the item merely excited the curiosity of honourable members.

The CoLONIAL TREASlCRER said that there was a difference between unforeseen expenses and unrendered claims, as the former were operated upon by different departments, as contingencies arose from time to time; but nnrendered claims pro­vided a fund to cover the negligence of persons not sending in their claims in time.

Question put and passed. The CoLoNIAL TREASURER moved that

the sum of £9,387 be granted to defray the expenses of Customs in Brisbane and in ::Yioreton Bay. He might mention that there were some increases, commencing with thB landing-surveyor and inspector of bonded ~tores, who was put down for an incrPase of £:33. That gentleman was one of the old­est officers in the Customs Department, having been for eighteen and a-half years in that serviee. He had to inspect the dis­charging of vessels at the different wharYes, ;vhich, as honourable members were aware, had greatly increased in number and extent of late. The other elerks who he proposed should receive advances were the four land­ing-waiters for whom he in>ited an increase of £;50 eaeh. Honourable members would recollect that there was a strong expression of opinion last year, whPn the vote was under consideration, that those officers should have their salaries increased. They had b,'en in the senice of the Governnwnt, the youngest for ten years, and the oldest for seventeen years. Those were the only large increases shown upon the Esti­mates ; and he felt justified in placing them before the eommittce after the ex­pression of 01Jinion last year with regard to those officers who might be regardPd, as it were, as the eyes of the Customs in protecLing the revemtP. Other incrc>ases were very small. Of the seven clerks, the second was put down for £15 extra, and one al .t~O extra; lhe ! wo gaugers vt J..:lf) a-veur more, the lo,:ker' at £10 eiich addi­tional, aud th(l. tide->> ai!crs at au increaaa

8!)2 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl;y.

of £10 each also. As a coast-waiter was rt•quired for Moreton Bay, Captain Page, of the steamer "Rate," had been appointed at a salary of £25 a-year. \Vith the rxception of the landing-waiters and the landiug-suryeyor, the other increases were only of £10 each; and as the reYenue col­lected at the port of Brisbane amounted to nearly £:300,000 annually, he thought that thP small increases should be regarded as granted more as a marked approYal of the conduct of the oJiieers than in any way as submitting an extraYagant estimate. All the increases had been put down on the recommendation of the head of the depart­ment.

Mr. P.nMrm said thrre was no doubt a very strong expression of opinion last year in favour of incrPasing the salaries of the tide-waiters, but he should like to know what the tide-surveyor at Lytton had done that he should be ldt out in the cold, Pspt•cially as he was an old servant and had about the roughest work of the lot.

The CoLONIAL TREASURim said that the permanent hP ad oft he department had rpcom­nwnded that gentlenwn, as wPll as many otht>rs, for increases, but he (the Colonial Treasurer) found it was necPssary to exercise rconomy in making any increases ; in fact he had only been induced by the very strong expression of opinion last session to propose the increasPs he had mentioned. He believed that J\lr. \Yebb had strong daims for an incrl•asP, and he should be very glad to see him havp it when the finances of the eountry wPre in a more prosperous eondition.

:\Ir. JYionEHE.~D was about to refer to a matter which by some honourable mem­bPrs might not be considered relevant to the question before them, but whieh, he considered, might very properly be bronght forward at the prl•sent time. He wished to draw the attention of the committee and of the country to the very anomalous position occniJied by the Collector of Customs. They found that gPn!leman first of all sitting in anothPr place, to ;vhich great honour was attachPd, and next he was sitting outside the Assem­bly as the suborclii~ate of an honourahle membrr of that committee. He thought thr sooner that state of things was alterl'd the better. He did not wish to say one ,-orcl against the gentleman oecupving the position of Collector o£ Customs," but he knew one thing for certain, that if Pver he was a Minister o£ the Crown he should offer that gl'ntleman the choice of two things-either to resign his seat in another place or his appointment as CollPctor of Customs. It was a eonstitutional ques­tion whether the subordinate of tlw head of a dPpartment slwuld be able in another place to al'iually rcvisP thP actions of his rhie£ in anotl1er Chamber. liP mentionPd the matter to }lrovoke remark<, uml noi

with the smallest intention of casting any reflection upon the gentleman occupying thP }Josition he referred to.

The l'rm~nER did not agree with the honourable membPr, that it was a subject whieh they should discuss in Committee of Supply. If it was to be considered as a eomtitutional question it should be intro­dmed in the proper way by a resolution. \Vith regard to the PXCt>ption taken by the honourable member, he did not think there wpre good grouncb for it. J\fr. Thornton was appointed as a mPmbPr o£ the other Chamber, notoniy because it was considered that he might be o£ use when discussing questions of tariff, but because he was a gcntlpman of very large experiencl', and one enjoying the esteem of the community as a whole. No objection had ever been taken to his occupying a seat in the other House ; aml so far as he (the PrPmier) had heard. J\fr. Thornton had never exereisrd his position in sueh a way as to giye the smallest cause of offence. He was an independent man who did his duty in another place ; although at the same time the propriety of h1s occupying such a posi­tion might be discussed. If it was thought nel'essary that the subject should be debated, the honourable member should fmme a resolution to that effeet.

J\fr. 0'8FLLIVAN was inclined to think that thP honourable nu•mbPr for J\Iitehell had properly brought the question hrfore the House. The quPstion \Yas wlwther any ptLid sernmt of the State should hold a seat in another branch of the Legislature and yote his own ~alary. He was in the country when Mr. Thornton's appointment was made, and he objected to it then, aml had alway~ looked upon it as a violation of the rule that a man shoulclnot be the judge o£ his own cause. The votes to the Civil sernmts should be in the hands of a power above the servants of the Statt>, and the Civil seryants should not also be masters of the Stak The respectability of Mr. Thorn­ton had nothing to do with the question. It was a Y<'ry dangerous principle ; and he should malw an attempt to proYe the posi­tion he took np when his priYate motion came before tlll' House on Thursday. 'rhe GoYPrmnt:'nt 1vlw nominatPcl .iHr. Thornton must han• bN•n blind. He must ~ay, in jus!iee to :Nir. Tlwrnton, that lw was per­fectly cerrnin that the appointment ,-as forcPc1 upon him, and that he did not think it \vas an honour to him to hold a seat in the other Chamber. He did not belit'YL' any Civil st'rYant wished for such a pr»;ition.

Mr. J\IoREHEAD would point out the in­cousi~tentT of the remnrks of the Pn'miPr in justiiic1~tion of .i\lr. Thornton holding a. seat in thl' Cpp,•r ChambPr. The Premier had saitl that lw was appointed for 11 spl'eial pm·post• -·JHtlill'iy, tlw rPvi.;ion of the tariff. .:\ ow he (..VIr. J\lorelwad) look

Supply. [4 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 893

it that when that gentlPmanlwcl prrfornwd that duty he should lttwP retired [rom that position, and have cPased to be a membPr of the Upper House. He also maintained that it was not the duty oi an outside member to take the action which he sug­gested; it was the duty of the Government to move in the matter. The appointing Government, or the sneeeeding Gon'rnment, should have asked for .Mr. Thornton's rPtirempnt.

Mr. McLEAN would like to know why the under-lockers wrre recommended to have their salaries increased, while no increase was put down for the first loeker ?

'l'he CoLmiiAL 'l'REASCRER said the first locker was in receipt of £2:W pL'r annum, which was considpred quite sufficient, his duties being the same as those of the other lockers.

Mr. "\V. ScoTT said thrre was another gentleman in the Upper House whose name ought to be mentioned in connection with Mr. Thornton's. The sooner the Jlrinciple was affirmed that Civil sernmts should not hold seats in the Upper House the bPtter. He did not lwsitatl' to say that Dr. Hobbs and lvir. 'rhornton romistpntly supportPd every Government, whethPr Liberal or othPrwise, which was in powC'r. vVhcn the honourable membPr for l'ort Curtis was in power he pcrfeetly remembered that tllPy always supported his measures.

Mr. .Th1ciL WRAITH diffPred from the Premier about this not being an appro­priate time for discussing the question; but as the whole principle upon which these appointments were made >rould proba­bly come before the House on Thursday, as had been mentioned by the honourable member for Burke, it would be well to leave over the discussion until then. There was another matter connected with this estimate which he should like to discuss, especially as this was the only time honourable members could have for discussing it, unless a private night was occupied for the purpose. He referred to the question of port charges. Since bringing the matter forward the other evening an article from the London Mer­r-anti1e Gazette had been published in the Brisbane papers, in which it was stated that there were British ports which con­trasted unfavourably even with foreign ports in the matter of expenses, and a special reference was made in that article to the port of Brisbane. The pnormous charges that had to be paid here were a matter of comment in shipping circles. He did not mean to sav that thP Govern­ment were responsible for all these charges, because many of them were private charges. The Government had an opportunity, how­evPr, of taking a step, at very little expense, from whirh the colony would derive great advantages. The whole of these port exactions did not realize a

revC'nue of more than £10,000, of which probably £0,000 was derived from the steamers employed in the mail st>rvire. It must be borne in mind, though, that this amount of £5,000 was taken into comidera­tion by the contractors, and that if it were remitted it would be taken off the contract for the mail service. He would also remind honourable members that it was only the ships which called at the ports which paid the light dues for the Torres Straits route. Ships which passed on to Sydney or Melbourne paid nothing; the burden, therefore, bore very unequally. The principle of having no port charges had cPrtainly lwrn affirmed this year; tolls had bC'en aboli~hed on the roads and bridges, and on the same principle tolls should be taken o±l' the sea. The argument tolL! with tenfold force when applied to port ehargrs. The committee saw that the atten­tion of the whole shipping world had been directed to the excl'ssivC' charges of the port of Brisbane. There should be an entire abolition of the whole charges, and the Government ought to take the initiative in the matter, and make it known to the world, so that shipping might be inLlucPd to come to Queensland ports. The loss in revenue would be but trifling, as he haLl shown. The port charges were not more than those of other colonial ports, but they amounted to a large sum in this colony. because there were so many ports and so many lights. 'l'he Colonial 1 reasurer, he repeated; would lose very little by doing a>Yay with the port charges, and the good that would be clone to the colony would bL> inealculable. They wanted ships to come to their ports, and they were not likely to come until the charges were abolished. He had brought this matter for>mrd at this time, because it was the only practical way by which he could introduce it, and hP hoped the Colonial Treasurer would see his way to do something definite in the matter before the end of the session.

The CoLOSIAL TnEASCRER said he was thoroughly in sympathy with the honour­able member for Maranoa on the mattPr of remitting the pilotage and harbour dues as soon as practicable; but the question was, whether it was desirable to do so now? A good deal of capital had been made out of the newspaper article which the honour­able member had read; but if the port charges mentioned in it were analyzPd it woula be found that the bulk consisted of private agents' exactions. The bulk seemt•tl to be very llPavy ehargeR in connection with shipR' business in ports. He might inform the committe-e that the pilotage and light duPs upon a vessel of 641J tons, entering the port of BriRbane from London, discharging her inward cargo, ancl clearing with hl'r outward cargo, amounted to only £W. There was another charge which prPSSPLt heavily, but with which the GoYernmeut

8()1. Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl;IJ·

hadnothingtodo; it was an entirely private <•harge. He was informed that the towagP from Cape :l\foreton inwards and outwards would amount to" £1CO on such a veHsel. 'rhat had been set down as part of the port charges, but it had, in reality, nothing to do with the Government scale of pilotage and light charges. The harbour and light dues of Queensland were not heavier than those of other colonies. This colony had a larger number of ports, but the Government had always been ready to meet regular trading vessels by making exemptions. The Netherlands Steam Navi­gation Company's vessels were entitled to visit our ports as frequently as they liked by paying the regular dues only once every six months. He could not consi­der any parallel existed between the highways of the colony being free and the ports being made free. It must be remembered that in the management of our ports . a skilled professional class of labour was maintained, from which vessels derived a substantial advantage, by having a guaranteed safe-conduct into port at their disposal, and towards the cost of which they might fairly be asked to contribute. ThPre was no such labour upon our highways, and, comequently, the analogy was not com­plete. Honourable members should be chary of remitting harbour dues. The harbours of the colony were only in their infancy, and a very heavy expenditure must be incurred in making them better ports and suitable for a b<-tter class of shipping. He would go further, and say that it was not outside the bounds of pro­bability that the management of some of them might be placed in the hands of har­bour trusts. I£ such trusts were appointed, they must have some means of revenue. He certainly thought that when the finances of the colony were in that flourishing con­dition that harbour and light clues might be remitted, their remission might be a ques­tion to take up; but the finances were not in that position at present. He held that it was only right that vessels which occa­sionally visited our ports should be called upon to pay the port charges, unless it could be shown that a large material advan­tage would be derived from their visits to counterbalance the remission of the har­bour dues.

Mr. PALMER had hoped at one time that the Colonial Treasurer would have risen to the occasion, and acted upon the suggestion of the honourable member for l\faranoa; but he had takE'n a narrow, one-sided, and not altogether correct view of the question. The Queensland port charges were exces­sive on ships of large burden. Since this subject had been debated he had been told by the agent of the Nether lands Steam Navigation Company that they had pur­posed sending in one of their vessds to the

port of Brisbane; but as the eharges would come to £170, and the promised freight and passenger fares to only £80, the vessel was allo\ved to go by the port. He remembered perwnally, on one occasion when detained in Sydney, that he and other passengers wished the Eastern and Australian Com­pany to send in to Brisbane one of their vessels, which was bound for the North ; but they would not, unless they were guaranteed forty cabin passengers. When honourable members came to consider that the loss to the revenue by the remis­sion of the dnes would only amount to £9,000, as had been shown by the honour­able member for ::\faranoa, and the great eorresponding advantages that would be derived, he was rather astonished that the Colonial Treasurer had not seized upon the opportunity which was presented to him of doing an act which would redound more to his credit and glory than anything done by any previous Colonial Trl'asurer. It was almost impossible to estimate the advantages which would accrue from having our ports free. The other day the Brisbane bridge was made free-a structure which had cost something like £125,000, ancl ·the interest on the cost of which came to over £6,000. "When they came to compare such a paltry local affair as the making of this bridge free with the importance of making all our ports free, he was surprised that the Colonial Treasurer did not rise equal to the occasion, and thoroughly grasp the subject. Thl'rc never was a time when the remission of the charges could be entered upon better than now. It might be carried on with enor­mous advantage to the colony. It. was only necessary to see what the making of Sydney a free port had done for it. It was quite true that it was not entirely free ; but it was free as regarded many charges which had to be paid in Queensland. If all its ports were made free, Queensland would be put in the van of all the other colonies, which was the position she ought to occupy. He believed that honourable members of that committee, considering the paltry snm gained by these charges, which never­theless caused the greatest annoyance and were con~tant sources of disputes, would come to the conclusion that their abolition would be one of the boldest and best strokes for the colony, and would place it in the van of the Australian colonieR. He wished for a moment to refer to a statement made by the Colonial Treasurer the other night, which would lead the Home to imagine that by putting the Netherlands-India Steamship Company on the same footing as the A.S.N. Com­pany he was doing them a great benefit. He was absolutely doing none at all, as the ships of that company would only come in once in six months, while the A.S.N. Com­pany's boats came into port once or twice

Supply. [4 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 895

a-week. TheN ether lands Company would, therefore, gain nothing. He was not allud­ing ~pecially to this case, however; because there were many ships passing the port in partial distress which would run in if it were a free port, and spend a great deal more money in getting supplies and repairs than the whole of the harbour dues would amount to. This was a matter well worthy the consideration of the Colonial Trea­surPr. There never could .be a better chance than the present of getting Queens­land to the front.

Mr. BELL regretted that he could not agree with the honourable members for Port Curtis and l\{aranoa, who should, in his opinion, be prepared to go a step fur­ther and advocate the remission of all other taxes. On what principle, he would ask, were harbour and light dues to be done away with and other taxes left? They were objected to because the shippers found them excessive ; but it seemed to him that shipowners did not find the taxes imposed by_ the LPgislature so excessive as the overcharges made by the Brisbane agents and merchants. The honourable member for Port Curtis said that the abolition of port charges would place Queensland in the van of the Australian colonies; but he (Mr. Bell) w_as at a loss to understand how the remission of so small a sum could have that effect. '\Yas it intended that they should rush into free trade at once? If there was anything in such a poliry, and he for one thought there was nothing in it, and that protec­tion was best for a young colony, there was nothing in the case brought before the commitee on its own merits. He hoped he would not see the day when those charges would be remitted, and he thought the Colonial Treasurer showed a want of prin­ciple in expressing a wish for their remis­sion, for the finances of the colony were in a sufficiently sound condition to justify it now if necessary. He hoped that when this matter was definitely brought forward it would be as part of a wry broad ques­tion-there was no use dealing with it piecemeal. Fortunately the southern colonies were trying the experiment, and they would be able to see the result. He was not particularly wedded to his own belief ; at present he thought the course pursued by Vietoria was the best for a young colony, but if not, he had no doubt the other colonies would follow the example of New South '\Yales. He hoped that no Colonial Treasurer would propose to re­lease shipping from these charges while other taxes were untouched.

The PRE~IIER said he was rather inclined to agree with the honourable membPr for Dalby than with the honourable member for Port Curtis, for while it would be a very fine thing to get rid of all port eharges, it would not be fair to confer all the

advantages of remission of taxation on the shipping and mercantile interests. The real tax on shipping visiting the town of Brisbnne was not made up by the harbour nnd light dues, but came from the mercantile charges and those necessitated by the posi­tion of the town on a river. They might re­move many of these impediments by spend­ing a million on improving the navigation of the river, and this was not only possible, but they would have to consider the advis­ability of doing it before long. This expense would have to be met in some manner, and the best way would be by a charge on those interested. He did not think the subject under discussion had anything to do with free-trade or protec­tion ; it was a question of the inci lence of taxation. It would be a very joyful thing if the Treasurer could come down and abolish the ad valorem duties. They had only to look down the list of taxes to find many that it would be very pleasant to do away with. No doubt the miners would be glad to be relieved of the £10,000 or £12,000 they contributed to the revenue ; and so on 11·ith many others. But, before they did away with any tax, they must first find some means of supplying its place, and unlpss they were prepared with better ones it was inadvisable to do away with taxes that had been sanctioned by experi­ence. The revenue was, no doubt, won­derfully elastic; but he considered the amount of their necessary expenditure did did not justify them in abrogating any tax. He would think any Treasurer a very san­guine man who imagined he would be able to come down with a proposal for any remission of taxation, in view of the large and increasing claims on the public expen­diture.

Mr. MchwRAITH said that it was evident the Premier did not understand the ques­tion at issue. It was not a tax on shipping, but an impost on consumers, who not only had to pay the £10,000 he had already mentioned, but commission on it. His proposition was to make this charge a direct, not an indirect tax, and to make the people pay for the lighting of their own harbours. He would like to have heard the same speech from the Premier on the Brisbane Bridge Bill. The Colonial Trea­surer said tliat there was no analogy between light dues and tolls on bridges, as the first employed professional and experienced men. He would ask if profes­sional men were not also emJJloyed in the construction of roads and bridges ? In fact, the analogy was in his favour, as the lights were only used to guide shipping into the harbour. · The Colonial Trt>asurer also spoke about his (Mr. Mcilwraith's) case as being a weak one, because the Me'l'cantile Gazette showed that the private charges were more than the public ones. It was not the amount that he insisted on ; that

896 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

was, he admittccl, small ; but the fact that port charges were levied at all. These, added to the enormous private charges, made this port the most expensive one in the world. He thought that his Tiews would ultimately be carried out. The Treasurer's principal objection seemed to be that he would lose £10,000 ; but he would have to give it up some day. He estimated that he would have an excess of revenue over expenditure amounting to £86,000, and he could afford the item out of that.

Mr. HocKrNGS said that the proposition had his warmest sympathy, but it was a question whether the colony could afford it. :From inquiries he had made at the Port Office, he thought that the Netherlands­India Company had little to complain of. The real difficulty in this matter was, that whereas the tl·ade of New South Wales was concentrated in the one port of Sydney, they had a great many ports on the eoast of Queensland, and steamers having to call in an three or four ports found the total charges burdensome. The advantages of coast lights were shared by the vessels of neighbouring colonies, who enjoyed their advantages free of cost, while the charges acted as a sort of punishment to those vessels which put into our ports. It was a mistake to suppose that because an impost was small in amount that it did not interfere with commerce ; the smallness of the toll on the Brisbane bridge did not make it more acceptable to the public, or prevent it from dividing the town almost into two parts. The idea of abolishing these port charges was a bold one, and he would be glad if it could be safely done. He was not aware that any port was free of these charges, and as for the excessive private charges to which reference had been made, he thought they would cure them­selves, as the effect of the imposition would recoil on those who made it. If a large expense was incurred in deepening the river he supposed that a trust would have to be created and charges made. The question was whether it would be wise to make all ports free at a cost of £10,000, and as the charge fell on the consumer, whatever was done it might as well fall in this direct manner.

Mr. PETriGREW did not understand how this trifle of £9,00lJ should be allowed to stand in the way of making Queensland the most complete colony in Australia; if he had voted for six railways in globo and a free bridge he would not have stuck at it. He could tell honourable members how to make Brisbane a free port. There were thousands of acres of valueless land down the river; let them make, instead of the Bundaberg railway, a tramway down the river, so that the material dredged from it might be laid upon the land, which, so im­proved, would sell for thousands of pounds.

At vre~~:nt they paid 10s. a ton more on goods from Europe than was charged to Mel­bourne or Sydney, and the difference arose from the long distance from the sea-board. Ships were also compelled to employ two tugs when one would be sufficient. It was all very well to say that the country could not afford the abolition, for25 per cent. could be struck off the cost of the Civil service without any detriment to its efficiency. At present it was eating out the vitals of the colony. They were making a dry dock at South Brisbane which would not be of any use unless Brisbane was made a free port, and vessels were thus induced to come here for repairs.

Mr. STEWART said this was one of the taxes that was collected without any cost at all. On a vessel of 800 tons the whole of the Government charges inward and out­ward did not amount to more than about £120, and if she left in ballast it would not be more than about £60. He did not be­lieve the remission of this tax would benefit the colony to any great extent, and would much rather see the money spent in deep­ening the river. The Government charges were not by any means heayy ; indeed he knew of one port, namely, Glasgow, in which they were three or four times as heavy. He had been a member of the wharfage commission, and from the evi­dence given before them, he believed that if the Government would provide towage, so as to do away with the existing monopoly, there would be but little cause for complaint. His firm had extensive shipping connections with both Melbourne and Sydney, and there was not an average of more than 5s. differ­ence in the freights from London by the same class of vessels to this port and that of Sydney. Shipmasters would have very little to complain of here if the merchants made their charges as light as the Govern­ment.

Mr. WALSH, referring to the quotations of freight to Sydney and Brisbane in the European Mail of July 6th, asked why the freight of fine goods to Sydney was put down at 25s., and to Brisbane at 4.5s. pertonP

Mr. STEW ART replied that the quotations were only what shipowners would like to get, and not what they would actually take. If the honourable member would go to his office he would show him instances in which freight had been charged to this port at the rate of 20s. for fine goods.

Question put and passed. The CoLoNIAL TREASURER moved that

£820 be granted for the Customs depart­ment at Ipswich.

Mr. PALMER asked what was the use of a branch Custom-house at Ipswich, now that the railway had been opened?

Mr. BELL said that since that question had been raised it might be advisable to adjourn, for the debate upon it would take up the whole night.

Supply. [4 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 897

The CoLONIAL TREASURER pointed out that the Customs receipts at Ipswich last year amounted to £17,250; and he con­sidered that that was a sufficient answer to the question put by the honourable member for Port Curtis.

Mr. vV. ScoTT could not see why Ipswich should be favoured in this way, and he thought the custom-house there should be abolished. .

Mr. vV ALSH said it was an absurdity to have a Custom-house at Ipswich, and he was sure the inhabitants of that town would not be in favour of the continuance of any such absurdity.

Mr. FooTE said it was not an absurdity. There was a great necessity for it ; and it had hitherto proved a great convenience to the people of Ipswich.

Mr. MoREHEAD suggested that progress should be reported.

The PREMIER regretted that honourable gentlemen opposite appeared unwilling to proceed with the Estimates. The Govern­ment were endeavouring to do their best to get through what many honourable members considered was the main busi­ness of the session ; and in order to comply with the wishes of the House they had set aside other business of very great importance. There had never been a session during which discussions had been so unnecessarily protracted. vVhen the honourable member for Mitchell got up and intimated that there was going to be a long discussion over a matter which did not need discussion at all, there could be very little doubt as to what he meant.

Mr. MclLwRAITH said he should like to have the Treasurer's own opinion as to whether he considered that it was necessary to have a sub-collector, landing-waiter, clerk, and locker at Ipswich-whether all the work could not be done as well in Brisbane? Was it not a fact that since the opening of the railway to Ipswich the customs collections at that port had very much fallen off?

The CoLONIAL TREASURER replied that any alteration at the present time would be exceedingly inconvenient to the people of Ipswich. There was nothing in the returns to show that this branch was unnecessary. Last year there was certainly a decrease of £2,000 in the customs collections at Ips­wi~h, but then there was also a decrease at some other ports. His own opinion was, that the establishment should be continued for the present year, and if during the year the receipts show a marked falling off, he should be prepared to advocate its abolition.

Mr. FoorE pointed out that the cus­toms revenue had also fallen off at Mary­borough, Bundaberg, and Port Curtis, and from the very same reason-namely, the depression of trade. He did not see why Ipswich should be robbed to enrich Bris­bane.

The CoLONIAL S.ECRETARY saill that the returns for the last quarter were within £100 of those of the corresponding quarter of 1876.

Mr. GRAHAM said the actual amount of increase or decrease was not a fair thing to go by. The question was, whether the work done in the custom-house at Ipswich could not be as well done elsewhere. If it was necessary that there should be a custom-house at Ipswich it was equally necessary that there should be one at Toowoomba, Dalby, and Warwick.

Mr. J. ScoTT said that if he remembered rightly there was an implied promise given some two or three years ago .that the cus­toms establishment at IpsWich should be abolished.

Mr. MoREHEAD asked whether it was not a fact, that in 187 4 the committee decided that the establishment at Ipswich should no longer exist P If so, why had the item been placed on the Estimates again ? He should also like to know whether the Government intended to start similar establishments at Toowoomba, Dalby, and "\Varwick ?

Mr. GRAHAM said that if Ipswich had continued to be a port it might have been useful to continue a custom-houHe there, but the Government had done all in their power to destroy Ipswich as a port by their railway charges.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said the item had never disappeared from the Estimates since it was first put on. There was cer­tainly an intimation made three years ago of the intention to discontinue it, but on the representation of the mercantile com­munity of Ipswich that was not done. It was not the intention of the Government to make branches of the customs department at the places mentioned by the honourable member for ¥itchell. The opening of the railway had rather increased the customs collections at Ipswich than otherwise.

Mr. MclLwRAITH said the Colonial Treasurer was hardly correct in his state­ment, for on the Estimates for 1875 the vote was put down at £200 for six months only.

Mr. IvoRY asked whether it was the practice of the railway officials to carry goods in bond on the railway?

The CoLONIAL TREASURER replied that it was.

Mr. IvoRY said that in that case he could see no reason why Ipswich should have a custom-house.

Mr. Fox thought the Colonial Treasurer had better withdraw the item. It looked like a political job; and he was evidently afraid of offending some political sup­porter at Ipswich. The establishment would have to be abolished some time, and it might be just as well done now. .

Mr. BEATTIE asked whether goods m bond sent by railway were sent in charge of a customs official?

898 Supply. [ASSE;\fBLY.] Supply.

The CoLOXIAL TREASt'RER replied that the goods were sent up propPrly secured and sealed in vans. It must be borne in mind that in connection with the customs department at Ipswich there were sub­stantial buildings, and the present vote was simply for the salaries of the staff.

Mr. \V ALSH suggested that the building ~hould be turned into a Government school. He trusted the Government would take the debate as a warning that this was the last time the item was to appear on the Esti­mates.

Mr. ]\foREHEAD said it was decided three years ago that this item should be voted for six months, provisionally, and should then exist no longpr. It would be much better to allow the buildings to go to ruin than that the country should be taxed to maintain them to the extent of £850 a-year. He would ask whether it was Ipswich pressure which had been brought to bear upon the Colonial Treasurer P -This was a most improper and unjust vote ; and he would, therefore, move that it be reduced by the sum of £819 19s. lld.

Mr. FooTE rose to correct a statement that the bonded store in Ipswich had been given over as a public school. There was not a word of truth in that statement. and he denied it in toto. Some stress had been laid upon the fact that bonded goods were sent by rail. · That might occur oceasionally, but it was very seldom. The principal portion of the goods was taken b1 the river. In rderenee to the estab­li~shment of bonded warehouses in inland towns, sut'h as 'l'oowoomba, Dalby, or \Varwit'k, he t'onsidered it would be; vPry benefic·ial to the inhabitants to have them, and hP did not see why they should not have bondetl stores and warehouses as well as the small places along the coast. Honourable members on the other side thought nothing of voting £10,000 or £20,000 for a northern district, but they were always tumbling ovt>r straws in their desire to be econo­mieal when a paltry vote such as this came before the House. It would be a very gi'Pat inconvenience to Ipswich if the ainenllml'nt were carried, and he did not ~ee >rhy the custom-house should be abol­Ished.

::\fr. I \"ORY thought that it would be more advisable to reduce the amount by half; and he ·would suggest to the honour­able member for M:itchell that he should put his amendment in that form. That would be allowing six months' supply for the Ipswich custom-house, and would give the Government some time to make different arrangements.

Mr. MoREHEAD said, although he was quite willing to accept the suggestion of the honourable membl'r for Burnett, he would point out to the eommittee that thPy might be tricked in the same way that they were some years ago. Six months' esti-

mates were then passed for the Ipswich custom-honsP, on the understanding that at the expiration of that period it should be abolished; but the understanding was never carried out. \Vith the permission of the committee, however, he would with­draw the Ol'!ginal amendment, and would move the reduction of the item by £410.

Mr. FooTE objected to the withdrawal of the amendment. If it was carried, he would take care that th.e Bundaberg and Port Curtis custom-houses should not pass.

Mr. IVORY was quite unaware that Buudabcrg and Port Curtis occupied simi­lar positions to Ipswich, which was a little petty place at the head of navigation, with the capital of the colony intervening between it and the ocean.

Question-That only 1d. be granted on account of the Ipswich custom-house­put.

The committee divided:­AYES, 12.

Messrs. King, Walsh, J. Scot.t., Graham, Mcllwraith, :Fox, Buzacott, W. Scott, J. Low, Morehead, Stevenson, and Ivory.

NoEs, 13. :Messrs. Douglas, Dickson, Miles, McLean,

Hocking~, Griffith, Fraser, Beattie, Murphy, Foote, Perkins, Stewart, and G. 'l'horn.

Question, therefore, resolved in the nega­tive.

Mr. MoREHEAD said that after the close division which had taken place he con­sidered it would be an act of good grace if tlw honourable the Colonial Treasurer were to move the Chairman out of the chair so as to leave the vote for the consideration of a fuller House.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said that be­fore th!J vote came on he took upon himself to ask the leader o£ the Opposition if he would consent to its being considered this evening, and that honourable member, who was not now present, offered no objection. 'Gnless honourable members had some fair ground of opposition they ought to let the vote pass, especially as everything had been said which could be said about it. Some misconception appeared to have arisen about the six months' vote passed in 1875. In the Estimates and Supplementary Estimates for that year provision was made for the full term of twelve months, and the pro­priety of retaining the custom-house was subsequently affirmed by the additional appropriation on the Supplementary Esti­mates.

Mr. vVALSH said that in the absence of the leacler of the O}Jposition the vote had been most unexpectedly opposed by an independent member on his side of the House ; and the reasons he had given for his opposition had commended tuemselves to the common-sense of honourable mem­bers, I:J:e WQUlcl suggest to the honourable

Formal Business. [5 SEPTEMBER.]

the Colonial Treasurer that six months' supply should be asked for, ami that it should be given as a warning to the Ips­wich people that the continuance of this useless branch of the customs department would be then and there determined.

Mr. FooTE hoped the committee would vote the whole amount, as the custom-house was needed.

The CoLOXIAL TREASURER could not accept the honourable member's suggestion; but as honourable members did not appear wiliing to allow the vote to pass that even­ing, he would move that the Chairman do leave the chair and report progress.

The CHAIRMAN reported progress accord­ingly, and obtained leaye to sit again to­morrow.

The House adjourned at seven minutes toll o'clock.

Supp(IJ· 899