DISCUSSION on Second Rated MFE Programs _ Page 2 _ QuantNet Community

2/18/2015 DISCUSSIONonsecondratedMFEprograms|Page2|QuantNetCommunity

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DISCUSSIONonsecondratedMFEprograms

charlieLuosaid:

Idisagreewiththis.Youappeartobelookingatthisfromtheviewpointofsomeonewhoisattendingorhasgraduatedfroma"1sttier"school.Ifso,yourviewpointrepresentsaminorityofallinvolved(theschools,otheraspiringstudents,headhunters,andemployers).

Takemyselfasanexample.Iamarecentlymarriedteacher,andamthusstuckinthemetroareaforaconsiderableamountoffuturetime.Ihappentowanttochangecareers.Ifaprogramcosts40k(i.e.Fordham)butgetsmeastartingsalaryof60kwithraisesthatwillaverageouttogreaterthan5%eachyear,thenattendingthelowertierprogramisamuchbetterfinancialdecisionthanstickingaroundasateacher.Inamatterof5yearsIwillhavemoremoneythanifIcontinuedtoteach.

Facedwiththisconclusion,Iammorethanwillingtoattendanon1sttierschoolaslongasIwillreceiveacompetenteducation.OfcourseIwouldprefera1sttier,butIamrealistic.Idonotthinkthat"ifcannotgetintoa

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CarlMember

Thefirsttierprograms

Ithinkitmakesalotmoresensetofigureout"thefirsttierprograms"

othersarethosewhodonothavegoodplacement.ifsoitdoesnotworththe$$$$$$.sosimplyavoidem.noneedtolearnmoreaboutthem.ifcannotgetintoafirsttier,dosomethingelsemaybeisabetteridea.thisissimilartoMBAs.anything2ndtierorlowerhasmuchlowervaluethanthefirsttier.

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#21

#22

firsttier,dosomethingelse,"isagoodidea.

Unfortunately,thereishardlyanyinformationconcerningnon1sttierprogramsotherthanthatfoundontheprogram'swebsite(somewhichhasbeenshowntobe,attheleast,verymisleading).

It'sgreattoknowthegoodthingsaboutprograms.Itisalsogreattoknowthebad.Thisway,Icanavoidmakingahorriblemistake.

Carl,3/4/08

Carlsaid:

Iagreewiththegeneralthrustofyourresponsebutthereareacoupleofissuesherethatneedclarification.Thefirstisthatgarbageprogramsmaybeorientingtheirstudentstojobstheyhavenorealisticchanceofsnaggingquantjobsatbigfirms.Theskillsetrequiredforthosejobsisdifferenttothoserequiredforhumblerpositions.Iftheyfillyouupwithstochasticcalc,MonteCarlo,etc.,you'rebeingpreparedforaquantrolewhichyoumaynotgetbecauseyourschoolhasabadreporyouhaven'tbeenproperlytrainedortherearesimplytoomanyapplicantsforalimitednumberofjobsbutyoucan'tapplyforMBAtypejobsbecauseyouhaven'treceivedagoodoverallfinanceeducation(IknowMFEtypeswhocan'treadfinancialstatements,thoughthat'sabasicskill).Relatedtomypreviouspoint,theMFEhasyettocatchon(butprobablywillinthefullnessoftime)asacompetitortotheMBAnotjustinIBs,hedgefunds,andfinancialboutiques,butacrossAmericanbusinessasawhole,astheyunderstandtheneedformorequantorientedpeoplethanwhatMBAprogramsmaybechurningout.Andsecondtierschoolswillhavetolearnhowtocatertothisgrowingmarketbyprovidingpeoplewithamixofquant,computing,andbasicfinancialskills.Thishasyettobedone.Andinmyhumbleopinion,there'salatentmarketforthis.

bigbadwolf,3/4/08

bigbadwolfWellKnownMember

Idisagreewiththis.Youappeartobelookingatthisfromtheviewpointofsomeonewhoisattendingorhasgraduatedfroma"1sttier"school.Ifso,yourviewpointrepresentsaminorityofallinvolved(theschools,otheraspiringstudents,headhunters,andemployers).

Takemyselfasanexample.Iamarecentlymarriedteacher,andamthusstuckinthemetroareaforaconsiderableamountoffuturetime.Ihappentowanttochangecareers.Ifaprogramcosts40k(i.e.Fordham)butgetsmeastartingsalaryof60kwithraisesthatwillaverageouttogreaterthan5%eachyear,thenattendingthelowertierprogramisamuchbetterfinancialdecisionthanstickingaroundasaClicktoexpand...

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#23

Ifaprogramcosts40k(i.e.Fordham)butgetsmeastartingsalaryof60kwithraisesthatwillaverageouttogreaterthan5%eachyear,thenattendingthelowertierprogramisamuchbetterfinancialdecisionthanstickingaroundasateacher.

Thequestioniswhetheryouwillgetthisjob.Yesofcoursemanyjobsgotononfirsttier(whateverthatmeans),butthatisnotguaranteed,andyou're100%rightthatinformationonthelessbrandedschoolsissparseandunreliable.AsaHHIdothiscrapforaliving,andIstruggletogetareliableview,someonejustgooglingisgoingtohaveithard.$40Konateachingsalaryisabiglumpofcashand12yearsisserioustimesoyouhavemysympathy.FordhamisthefirstprogrammewhereI'vereceivedinformationthattheyareactuallylying,butchoosinganythingbasedsolelyuponbrochuresisnevergoingtoworkoutwell.Theyaresalespitchesforhighpricedproducts.ARolexaddoesnotsay"Ourwatchesareprettygood,butnotforyouifyouwantadigitaldisplay,orareallergictothealloyweuse,alsosomepeoplefindthemabitthick".Theyhavesomesportsdudeimplyingthatifyouwearone,youwillbemistakenforTigerWoodsandDavidBeckham.FordhamusesDescartesandJamesJoyce.Sameidea.

TheotherproblemforbothmeasaHH,andpeopletryingtomakegoodchoices,isthatasonemoves"downtier",thenumberofprogramsgoesuprapidly.TherearesomeprogrammesthatIliterallyhavenodataatall.

DominiConnor,3/4/08

bigbadwolfsaid:

ThatisaseriousmisunderstandingofOxford'sadmissionsprocess.Oxford'sadmissiontutorsareextremelyinterestedinmarks.ECs,leadershipandpersonalqualitiesarecompletelyirrelevanttotheprocess(unlessyourECisthatyouwereontheInternationalMathsOlympiadteam).AstheparentofonestudentatOxford,andanotherwhoisapplyingtoOxfordandtheIvies(asasafetysinceOxfordissoferociouslyhardtogetinto),IcanassureyouthatOxfordarefarmoreobsessedbyacademicexcellencethantheIvies.

AmericanswhoapplytoOxfordareexpectedtohaveATLEASTmid700s

DominiConnorQuantHeadhunter

israelrtNewMember

ThusOxford,forexample,basesitsadmissionprimarilyonaninterview.Ipersonallyknowofcaseswherethey'vemadeoffersaskingforonlytwo"E"gradesatGCE"A"levels.



#24

#25

inall3partsoftheSATs(ie:scoreof1500CR+Mor2250CR+M+W),plus3SATSubjectstestsinthehigh700s,plus4APswithascoreof5each.Thisisjustforstarters.Inaddition,theresultsofthecoursespecificstandardisedentrancetestsrunbyOxfordareextremelyimportant.TheseincludetheLNAT,HATandtheSTEPforlaw,historyandmathematicsrespectively.InthecaseofUKapplicants,theylookatmarksstartingfromtheyear10GCSEgrade,the"predicted"Alevels(sincethestudentsapplybeforetheyhavetheirfinalAlevelresults).ThepredictedAlevelscoreneedstobeatleastAAAforthecandidatetoevenbeconsidered.AAAAAiscommonandAAAAAAAisnotunknown

IFyouscoreextremelywellontheacademicsections,youarecalledtoaninterviewthatistechnical/brainteaserbased.Ifyoudowellattheinterview,youareplacedonashortlistofcandidateswhoarecomptetingforthelimitedplacesineachsubject.Ifyouareoneofthebest,oncemarksandtheinterviewareconsidered,youareofferedaconditionalacceptancewhichisusuallybasedonyouachievingaAAAontheAlevels.Ifyoufailtomeettheconditionalscore,youdontgetin.

Iftheadmissionstutors(ie:theactualprofessorswhoteachyouthesubjectwhenyouarrivethere)thinkthatyouareamazinglybrilliant,theymay(veryrarely)offeryouaEEasaconditionofacceptance.Thisismerelymeanttosignalthattheyreally,reallywantyouandthinkthatyouarenearlygeniuslevel.ThekidswhoareofferedEE,normallygetAAAAsincetheyareusuallythemostacademicallyproficientoftheentireapplicantcohort.

Realistically,unlessyouareatleastatthe98thpercentilelevel,applyingtoOxfordisawasteoftime.Infact,theiradmissionwebsiteisquiteopenaboutthis,sayingthattheyarelookingforapplicationsfrompeopleinthetop2%orbetteroftheircohort.

israelrt,3/4/08

"FordhamusesDescartesandJamesJoyce."

IfailtospottheconnectionbetweenFordhamandthesetwofinegents.AFAIK,DescarteswasafrenchmanandJoyce,althoughborninIreland,livedalloverEurope(includingFrance).

Poirot,3/5/08PoirotNewMember



#26

#27

WhichprogramshouldIchoose?

Iamaninternationalstudent.IhavegotadmissionfromMSCF@CMU,MSFM@UChicago,MFE@UMich,andpotentiallyfromMFE@Columbia

Cananyonegivesomecommentsandperspectivesontheseprograms?Especiallyregardingjobopportunitiesforinternationalstudentsintheseprograms,andalsootherimportantaspects.Thankyouverymuch!

Feng,3/5/08

Ofthefour,CMUhasbeenupfrontwithitsinternshipandplacementdatawhiletheother3providesnothing.WordsIheardisthatMFE@Columbiaisreallybadwithitsplacementthisyear.Only15ofthe67orsograduateshasfoundjobsduetoitslargeclasssize,terriblemarketcondition,foulweather,badfengshui,etc...UMichisabigschoolbutnotexactlyatthecenterofafinancialcenter.UChicago,Ihavenodatapointtosayanythingeitherway.

IfIwereyou,IwouldcallupUChicago,askabouttheircurrentplacementsceneandthenmakeachoicebetweenCMUandUChicago.Oneisexpensivewithgoodplacementandlocation.Theotherislessexpensiveandpotentiallygoodplacementandsecondbestlocation.

Talktotheheadhuntersaroundhere(Dominic,ToddFahey,Eric,etc).TheyknowthemarketbetterthanIdo.

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AndyNguyen,3/5/08

YouarenotaloneinnotseeinghowFordhamcanclaimcreditforthesepeople.AsIsay,itslikethewayRolexwouldlikeyoutobelievethata$10Kwatchwillmakeyouagreatsportsman.Fordhamgoesfurther,andtoquotetheirwebsite:AtFordham,youwillexperiencethesameJesuitapproachtoeducationthathaschallengedsome

oftheworld'sgreatestthinkersformorethan400years.JesuiteducatednotableshaveincludedDescartes,

Molire,AlfredHitchcock,Sting,JamesJoyce,DeeDeeMyers,andCaptainKangaroo.

DescartesandMoliereareFrenchwithnoconnectiontoFordhamwhichdidnotexistatthetime.AlfredHitchcock'sconnectiontoFordhamisthatforawhileheworkedonthesamecontinent,anditispossiblethatheflew

FengNewMember

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#28

overitonce.AsithappensI'msittingnearwherehewaseducated,inEngland,thousandsofmilesfromFordham.StingisaBuddhist,educatedinEngland,notsurewhatthathastodowithapromotingaUSJesuitcollege.DeeDeeMyershasamuchcloserconnectiontoFordhamthananyoftheothers,sinceshewasactuallyeducatedinAmerica,albeitinacollegeasfarawayaspossiblefromFordhamasonecanbeinthelower48states.

JamesJoycewasIrish,againwithnoconnection.HedidhowevergetsomeJesuiteducation(alittlemorethanme),howeverhewaskickedoutasachildbecausehisparentscouldnotaffordthefees.FeesareofcourseasorepointwithFordhamsincethey'veagreedtoreimbursestudentsafterrunningastudentloanscam,aftercriminalinvestigation.

Idon'tknowwhat'sgoingonatFordham,anduntilsomeonecomplainedtome,Ididn'treallycare,butitdoesnotlookgood.

DominiConnor,3/5/08

Thankyouverymuchforyouradvice,Andy.IwillcallUChicago

IknowthatMSCF@CMUhasverygoodreputationinthestreet.Yetmanyotherfactorsmakesmefeelthatit'snotperfect.Iknowthere'snoreasontoaskforperfectnessatanytime,butIthinkyoucanunderstandthisbecauseIamgoingtopayalargeamountofmoneyforthat.

ThefirstreasonformetovacilateistheoverallreputationforthenameofCMU.OutsideUSA,almostnoonehavehearedofit.(SinceIamacomputermajorstudent,IknowCMUwellthough)IthinkthiswillhavesomelongtermeffectifsomedayIamgettingbacktoChina.

IappliedtoPittsburgcampusofCMU,soregardingthelocationIthinkUChicagoisbetter.

ThoughthedirectorofMSCF@CMUtoldmethatplacementoflastclasswas"muchbetterthantheyhadexpected",Ialsoheardthatonly1studentinthisyear'sNYclasshasgotjobofferinNY,manyAsianstudentshavetogetbacktoHongKong(Icannotbesureabouttheaccuracyofthisinformation).AlsoacurrentstudentatCMU'sprogramtoldmethatit'snotagoodtimetogotoUSforaMFEprogram.SoIamkindofworriedaboutthejobmarket.

ItseemsthattherehavealwaysbeenalotofdisputesoverColumbia'sMFE

FengNewMember



#29

program.DoyouknowthatthebadplacementrecordofColumbiaisonlyforthisyear,orithasneverperformedverywellinthepast?AtleastplacementrecordofCMUthisyearisalsomuchworsethanthoseinpastyears,thoughIhavenosolidstatisticsyet.

Feng,3/5/08

israelrtsaid:

Idon'tdisputetherestofyourpostsohavesnippeditout.WhatI'veunderlinedaboveistheonlypointI''mtryingtomake:I'mnotawareofanysuchproceduresamongtheUSIvies.I'mawareoftwopeoplewhogotintoOxfordonthebasisofhavingtogetonlyEE.Inbothcases,ifmemoryserves,theygotAAAA.ThequestioniswhyweretheygivenEEoffersinsteadofAAAA.Iarguebecausetheadmissiontutorswerecognisantthatmathematicallytalentedyoungstersmightnotperformthatwellinstandardtests(suchas"A"level).Andhencethatresultsofsuchtestsmightnotbeareliable"filter."

Inpassing,Ialsohadafriendwho*only*achievedAAA,didn'tdotoowellatinterview,butsincehehadalreadydoneayearatBirkbeck(LondonU),wasadmitted.Butthisisgoingbacktwentyyears.AndOxford'sadmissionprocedureshavepossiblybecomemorestandardisedsincethen.YetIwonder.TherearerecordnumbersofBritishyoungstersachievingthehighestlettergradeat"A"levels,andthere'sagrowingrecognitionthattheexamnolongerservesitpurposeofdistinguishingthewheatfromthechaff.

Withregardtoforeignapplicants,theydoubtlessusemorestringentandexplicitcriteria.AsIseemtorecall,CambridgetherealjewelinthecrownofscientificeducationintheUKdoesmakeoffersbasedon"A"levelperformanceusuallyAAAA,Ithink(andsomeoftheirentrantsachieveAAAAA).

Postscript:You'remakingadmissiontoOxfordouttobemoreintimidatingthanitreallyis,thoughthefiguresyoucitecannotbearguedwith.Ifyouhaverealmathematicaltalent,eitherOxfordorCambridgewilladmityouasamathundergrad,asthat'sallthey'rereallylookingfor.UnliketheUS


Iftheadmissionstutors(ie:theactualprofessorswhoteachyouthesubjectwhenyouarrivethere)thinkthatyouareamazinglybrilliant,theymay(veryrarely)offeryouaEEasaconditionofacceptance.Thisismerelymeanttosignalthattheyreally,reallywantyouandthinkthatyouarenearlygeniuslevel.ThekidswhoareofferedEE,normallygetAAAAsincetheyareusuallythemostacademicallyproficientoftheentireapplicantcohort.



#30

#31

#32

#33

Ivies,whoseemtohavemovinggoalposts,andseldommakeexplicitwhatmixofqualitiesthey'relookingfor(andinwhichacademicpotentialseemstobeonlyoneingredient).

bigbadwolf,3/5/08

(OFFTOPIC)Pardonmyignorance,butwhatisthisA,AA,AAA,AAAAAbusiness?MyexperienceisverylimitedsinceIcamefromCuba.IonlyknowtheCubanandtheAmericansystem...andBTW,thecubansystemisextremelysimplebutveryefficient.Yougetintocollege/universitybaseonatest.Ifyoudon'tdowellonit,toughluck.Harshbutitworkssomehow....andafteryouarein,itissurvivalofthefittestbecausetheprofessorsmakeyourlifealivinghellforthefirstcoupleofyearsto"filter"peopleout...Ah,ifyoufailed,youareout,plainandsimple...atanylevel.

alain,3/5/08

ContrasttheOxfordthingwiththeIndiansystem(likeCuba).Forentrancetoanyschool..beitforengineeringormedicine..thereareexamswhichareheldonceayear.ForIndianInstitutesofTechnologyortheIndianInstitutesofManagement,approx2.5lacstudentsappearfor2000oddseats.Ifyoumakethatexam,youareinelseyoucan'tdoanythingevenifyouarethesonofthePresident.So,you'llseealotofstudentstoppingtheirClass12thexambutcomingacropperintheentranceexaminations.Ofcoursetherearebothprosandconstoit...thereisnotaniotaofnepotismbutthenagainonlyoneexamdecidesyourfurtureandifyouhaveonebadday,youcannotmakeit.Formedicinestudentsit'seventougherwherefor25oddseatsinAIIMS(AllIndiaInst.ofMedicalSciences)over2lacstudentsappear.

Sachin

Sachin,3/5/08

IfyoucouldalsopostyourfindingabouttheUChicagoplacementrateandyourdiscussionswithotheruniversities,Iwouldappreciateit.Thanksinadvance!

bobbychopra,3/5/08

alainOlderandWiser

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#34

#35

#36

alainsaid:

"A"meansoneAgrade(e.g.mathematics)atGCSEadvancedlevel"AA"meanstwoAgrades(e.g.mathandphysics)"AAAAA"meansfiveAgrades(e.g.math,furthermath,physics,chemistry,biology).SinceEnglishdegreestypicallyconcentrateononesubject(e.g.math,physics,orbiology),Idon'tseethelogicoftakingsomanysubjects.

bigbadwolf,3/5/08

Well,Iamverygladtosharetheinformation.

FromwhomItalkedtoatUChicago(someoneintheadmissionoffice),theirlastyear'splacementratewasnear100%.Andaccordingtoherwords,thisyear'splacementseemsevenbetterthanlastyear.MostjoboffersarewithinUS(thisiswhatIconcernbecauseIamaninternationalstudent).Theyhavealsogot2professorsnowinchargeoftheirstudent'scareerservice.Theywillinviteemployerstotheschool.Theydonothavegraduatesfirstyearsalarystatistics.

That'snearlyallIgotfromthephonecall.

Feng,3/5/08

IhaveahighregardforChicago'sproactiveworkinhelpingtheirstudentsfindjobs.Can'thelpwithplacementstatistics,sinceofcoursethisisnotsomethingheadhunterssee.

OnthesubjectofreturningtoChina,myfeelingisthatCMU&Chicagohavethebeterinternationalvisibility,thoughIcannotbe100%aboutChina.

Butwhatwillbemoreimportantisthebrandofyouremployers,especiallyifyouareuncertainaboutwhenyouwillreturn.Unlessafirmisbiginternationally,youwillfindthatit'sbranddropshardonceyougoforjobsoutsidetheUSA.

AbhishekNajbile,3/5/08


(OFFTOPIC)Pardonmyignorance,butwhatisthisA,AA,AAA,AAAAAbusiness?

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#37

#38

ButstillCMU'scareerserviceisstronger?

DominiConnorsaid:

Feng,3/6/08

Internationalqualificationsareanissueatmasterslevel.Thevastmajorityofpeopledotheirfirstdegreeintheirhomecountry,andit'squiteclearfromwhereIsitthatthereisawidevarietyofoptimalityoftheselectionprocesses.

ButthereisnorealstandardforwhataMFEprogramwillaccept,andthequalityoffirstdegreesvariesglobally,asdoesthelevelofcorruptionintheprocess.IndiahasdoneafirstratejobinmakingitsIITdegreesaninternationallyvaluedstandard.ChinesestudentsarefacedwiththeproblemthatsomanyofthepeopleinterviewingthemhavepreviouslymetROCgraduateswhoclearlyhadtheirdegreeboughtforthembytheirparents,orsomeotheruncleanmeans.WenotethatanincreasingnumberHKstudentsoftengotosomepainstopointoutthatnoneoftheirqualificationscomefromthePRC.

FordhammaybetheworstcaseintheWestofmoneygoingtotheheadsofpeoplerunningfinanceprogrammes,butitisnoalone.Wegetfeedbackofcourseswhere50%dropoutaftertheyhavepaidtheirmoney.It'shardtoconfirmthisexactly,sincenoMFEprogrammepublishesitsdropoutrate,andthepeoplewhoenduptalkingtoP&Darethosewhogotouttheotherside,sooursampleishopelesslybiased.

DominiConnor,3/6/08

Sorrytobringthisup,butIthinkyouareunawareabouttheUChicagoprogrambeingextendedtoSingapore.Informationisstilltricklingin.Iam

FengNewMember

IhaveahighregardforChicago'sproactiveworkinhelpingtheirstudentsfindjobs.Can'thelpwithplacementstatistics,sinceofcoursethisisnotsomethingheadhunterssee.

OnthesubjectofreturningtoChina,myfeelingisthatCMU&Chicagohavethebeterinternationalvisibility,thoughIcannotbe100%aboutChina.

Butwhatwillbemoreimportantisthebrandofyouremployers,especiallyifyouareuncertainaboutwhenyouwillreturn.Unlessafirmisbiginternationally,youwillfindthatit'sbranddropshardonceyougoforjobsoutsidetheUSA.




#39

#40

tryingtogatherasmuchinformationasIcan.

SingaporeProgramhttp://finmath.uchicago.edu/new/msfm/news/press_02508.php

Theuniversityconductedasurveyacoupleofweeksago

MyimpressionisthattheuniversitywillsoonhavesomesortofcareercenterforfocusingonopportunitiesinSouthEastAsiaandinSouthAsia.Italsowantstoattractcandidatestothenewprogramlocation.

Maybeinayearorso,theSingaporeprogramwouldawholelotofopportunitiestoofferinthatregion.

bobbychopra,3/6/08

SadlyIhaveyettotalkwithanalumnusoftheIITStuartprogramme.Butthedescriptionlooksgood.IthinkitisuniqueamongstfinanceprogrammesinthatitmayrequireyoutodoabasicC++coursebeforeyoustart.ManyprogrammeslikeFordhamclaimtheycanturnoutskilledMFEswherenoC++happensatallTheysaytheyuseAnsiC++,whichisgood,butelsewhereIhaveheardtheyuseuseC++/CLIwhichI'mlesshappyabout,simplybecauseitisnotC++,andwillcausetheirstudentstofailtoanswermanyinterviewquestions.AlsoC++/CLIisalmostunknowninprofessionalfinance,somuchsothatinterviewerswillaskC++questionsandbedisappointedbytheblanklooks.

TheyalsorequirestudentstodoVB.NEtwhichismorethanalittlebitodd,andmoreMScentricthanishealthy.ButmygripewiththatismostlythataquantneedsmoremathsthanheneedsVB.NET.It'sextremelyhardtotellsimplyfromthecourseoutlinewhetherthemathscontentisadvancedorrelevant."ComputationalFinanceIII"Isuspectismoreadvancedthan"ComputationalFinanceII",butthat'sasfarasitgoes.

DominiConnor,3/6/08

bobbychopraNewMember

IfyouwouldconsiderSingaporeasyourstudylocation,wewouldliketoknowthedecidingfactors....(chooseallthatapply)a)ChoosingSingaporeallowsmetocontinueworkingandstudyparttimeb)ChoosingSingaporewillallowmetostudywithlessfinancialburdenc)Singaporeisclosertomyhomeandfamilyd)ChoosingSingaporewillprovidemewiththeopportunitytoexploreadifferentcultureandnewfinancialnetworkse)Other(pleaseexplain)




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DISCUSSION on Second Rated MFE Programs _ Page 2 _ QuantNet Community

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