AUDIENCES WITH THE SHANKARACHARYA IN ALLAHABAD 1979-82

I. Nolan Howitt (N.G.H.), Brigit Howitt (B.R.H.), & Michael HARRIS (M.J.H.), 6 audiences: 21.12.79 to 01.01.80, translated by Shri Narayan Agrawal pp1-76. II W. WHITING (W), 5 audiences: 20.1 80 to 25.1.80 Translated by Shri Jaiswal; listed as pp 100-148 and indexed accordingly III. R. GUYATT (R.G.) & Lady M.ALLAN (M.A.): 2 audiences, 9.2.82 and 10.2.82

Translated by Shri Jaiswal; listed as pp 200-233 and indexed accordingly

(NOTE The Index relating to these particular visits is not included in this volume. Reference should be made to the General Index.)

AUDIENCE 1 21st December, 1979

His Holiness inquired about our comfort at the Hotel and the trip to India, after which we

began with a short meditation.

N.G.H. Your Holiness, my wife and I are so pleased and privileged to be here with you

again. Since our last visit the group in New Zealand has continually persevered in trying to

put your words into practice. Many of the questions we ask stem directly from this practice.

We would like to introduce to you Mr. Michael Harris, a lawyer who has been a member of

our group since 1961, being initiated into the meditation by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. In 1971

he and his wife went to London where for five years they helped Dr. Roles in many

capacities related to the introduction of meditation to new people. On his return to New

Zealand, Michael and his wife now look after the whole administration of the meditation in

Wellington.

M.J.H. Could you convey to H.H. how grateful I am to Him and Mr. Howitt for being able

to come to H.H. The guidance of H.H. and the meditation have been the most important

influence on both my wife and myself during the whole of our adult lives. H.H. has said so

much over many years that most questions can be answered, but if H.H. can help in allowing

deeper experience in meditation I would be most grateful.

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N.G.H. We have a number of questions from Dr. Roles in London and

people in New Zealand which we would like to put later this visit. First I should like to relay

a message from Dr. Roles.

Dr.R. I would like to convey the solidarity as a School with the many different groups

around the world of those who meditate and live by the Shankaracharya’s instructions. I

would like you to realise that anything you give to one of us, it gets around to all the

different groups. For instance, this term all these people have been receiving the material

from your last audiences with Lady Allan’s group and have been sending interesting

observations about these natural possibilities of Samadhi every day, of which they had no

idea before. The people are all very much alike and belong to three categories which Mr.

Howitt wrote to me about. I have asked Mr. Howitt to describe the three categories to you.

N.G.H. The following is the essence of Mr. Howitt’s letter to Dr. Roles:

‘‘I have found with the people here in New Zealand that, in practising to find the

point of rest between desires, they fall into three categories: the first are those who never

seem to find the point of rest, in fact they even forget to look. The second category of people

always seem to ‘wake up’ in the middle of an action, so for such people life seems to be

nothing but desires, action. They easily despair of ever finding the point of rest.

‘‘The third category is of those who actually find the point of rest. Some, when they

find it, start thinking of how they can intensify and prolong the experience and so lose the

point; others observe from this quiet point that action is going on around and is actually the

interplay of the Gunas. They observe how the appropriate energy is exactly measured

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to each action. Others see everything as a great play going on which is not real. Behind the

play they speak of a unity whose qualities of Bliss permeate everything but yet are not

touched by the Play. There is the knowledge that the unity of Atman and Param-Atman is the

Truth, the Real meaning of life.’’

I wrote this to Dr. Roles and he said it was in keeping with his own findings. Could H.H.

comment on these three categories of people in relation to the natural Samadhi?

(NOTE: In translating the above question to H.H., it appears the word ‘Shanti’* was used for

the whole phrase ‘point of rest between desires’ and when the question was reiterated (after

Shri Narayan was asked to put one question at a time to H.H. for his answer - not to read the

whole list of prepared questions at once) - the question was asked in terms of people of

Sattvic, Rajasic and Tamasic tendency - could H.H. say something about these?)

H.H. In the world there are only three types of persons - mankind can be divided into

three categories which he describes as sattvic, rajasic and tamasic. But he clarifies that the

three categories are not mutually exclusive. One has got predominance of tamas - but sattva

and rajas are there also. Similarly in the case of rajas, tamas and sattva are also there. In

tamas there is no desire for getting into sattva so people don’t even desire the higher plane.

In the case of rajas, people also have a desire but because of the predominance of rajas, they

do not get success in achieving it. In sattva they desire and also achieve success.

* ‘Shanta’ - peaceful, calm, tranquil.

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Now the question arises how to get more sattva than either of the other qualities? By

associating themselves with people of sattva, with atmosphere where sattva is prevailing,

with literature which is full of sattva, they can increase their sattva, higher qualities, and

control the other two qualities.

So it is by associating yourself with that type of person, place and literature that you can

improve.

N.G.H. Though some of the people are meditating and they are hearing knowledge of the

Shankaracharya and regularly come along to hear the good words, there are still people who,

even though they do all this, still do not find that natural samadhi or that point of rest. Is

there anything extra that we can do to help these people?

H.H. For people who regularly come and attend your meetings and try to hear the good

words which have already been given and yet do not find the point of rest, the main reason

for that is because of their inborn tendencies (samskar). They still have in them a certain

disturbed element, and due to that they are not able to make their own all that is told to them,

and when they go back, they again get engulfed in their previous samskar. They should

continue to meditate and reflect again and again about what they have heard so that in due

course of time their previous associations will get wiped off and there will be room for

taking in the new things which they have been told.

To illustrate this:

There were two ants; one was living on a mountain of salt, the other was living on a mountain of sugar candy. And it so happened once that the two ants met and they were talking about themselves.

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The ant who was living on the sugar candy was given a piece of salt by the other ant. When she tasted it, she said, ‘It is horrible! How can they live on this?’ The first ant invited the other to her place and so this other ant went to the sugar candy mountain with all her sisters and other ants, and thinking there wouldn’t be enough for them to eat there, they all took a small piece of salt in their mouths. When they arrived, the sugar candy ant gave them a small piece of candy, but since they already had a small piece of salt in their mouths they could not get the taste of candy - the two tastes got mixed up - and they said, ‘You praise your own place so much, but it is almost the same as ours.’ Then the first ant said, ‘Well, go and wash your mouths and then come again.’ They did so and again tasted the pieces of candy and found that It was really sweet. So then they never went back to their own place.

Similarly, the previous associations are so deep in these people that the element of

disturbance is there. That has to be washed off and the only way to do that is by constantly

repeating the hearing of the messages that have been given to them and thereby they will be

able to imbibe them.

N.G.H. There is another type of person who finds a point of rest, but at the same time,

having found it - I think it would be the Buddhi - will then come in and say ‘Oh, this is good

- I’ve found this point of rest, now how can I intensify it, how can I make it longer?’ and this

seems to take them away from the point of rest. I was wondering if H.H. could help us with

these people, because they seem to be in a different category.

H.H. For such people they should not try to prolong this period of the point of rest too

much or too suddenly - it should be done gradually. Effort should be made not so much to

increase it, as to digest it.

His Holiness gives an illustration:

In the same way when you eat something then for a time you find you are able to digest it. If you keep on putting more and more food in, expecting your system to digest that as well, you will only upset your stomach and instead of digesting it, nature will revolt.

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So the effort should not be so much towards increasing the period of the point of rest as to

making the point of rest natural with you and then of course it will gradually increase of its

own accord.

H.H. gives another illustration:

There are certain medicines which lose their efficacy by passage of time, but there are others which increase their efficacy by becoming older, particularly in Ayurvedic medicine. In our Indian system of medicine where there are some medicines made out of herbs, they cannot be kept for long. However, there are others which are of chemical preparation - the longer they stay the more efficacious they become.

So with Sadhana, the older it becomes, the more power it gathers. He stresses the same point

again, that instead of trying to do it for a longer period and then exhausting yourself and

reverting to the previous position, the position of disturbance, it is better to do it slowly,

slowly and in the course of time your endurance power will be increased and you will be able

to get that point of rest for a longer period.

N.G.H. On a different line, I would like to ask about the practice of bhakti-yoga. (This was

the introduction of a question, but was put to H.H. at this point.)

H.H. You don’t have to prepare a very long scheme for practising bhakti-yoga. Whatever

you are doing, you can continue doing the same thing; you have only to change your

approach. Now when you are doing anything with a view to gain something personally, then

the approach should be ‘I am doing this not for any gain, but as a service to God, what I am

eating, I am not eating just for my own satisfaction, but as an offering (prasad) - it has been

given to me by the Lord to enable me to

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serve Him,’ so that whatever you do, you connect that with the Lord - that will become

bhakti - you don’t have to change your course of action - action will be the same, but the

object will be different.

N.G.H. Concerning desire, often when the mind is at rest, there is the strong desire that all

men everywhere should experience Friendliness, Compassion, and Happiness. These seem to

be the natural expression of Man’s nature. Man’s power seems unlimited when desire relates

to the expression of his true Nature? Could H.H. say something on this?

In this state it seems that Nature (Prakriti) employs the least possible energy to achieve the

desire of Param-Atman.

N.S.A. I’m not very clear as to what - how I should put it to him?

N.G.H. It’s more that the divine friendliness, compassion, happiness seem to be the natural

qualities of man’s nature - when all else falls away this seems to be what arises - is this the

natural state of Man?

H.H. Yes, it is true that this is natural but the power, though unlimited, is obstructed by

virtue of the previous tendencies. Just as sunlight is pervading the earth, a small cloud

appears and obstructs that light. Similarly, if the previous actions are good, they help in

Man’s natural Friendliness, Compassion and Happiness - if they are not good, then there is

an obstruction. If his previous associations are good and present ones are not, then there will

be obstruction; but if previous are not good and present associations are good, then probably

this will overcome these previous associations. If these previous associations were good and

the present also good, then this will be helpful to further advancement.

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N.G.H. Whenever the thought of H.H. or Dr. Roles comes to mind, I receive no particular

image, but instead a great love arises for they remind me that the Param-Atman is in

everyone. There comes a strong feeling that everything is the expression of the Param-

Atman. At such times, there is no difference between ‘I’ and ‘That’, there are not two

identities. At such times, the ordinary sense of ‘I’ does not exist. Only the Self exists. Do I

need to persist in bringing in an image?

H.H. There shouldn’t be the need to bring in an image because if an image comes, then

there will be two. What our philosophy says is that there is only One. We have to wipe off

the two and if you try to bring in an image, then instead of wiping off that dualism, you will

be creating a dualism. You are on the right path, so you needn’t bother about the image. If

there is no image then you will reach the goal quicker, otherwise this dualism will bother you

more.

N.G.H. Where does that image arise in man? Into which part of the mind (Antahkaran)?

H.H. You come to know each other by the medium of the image, but once you know, the

image has finished its work. We have to move towards realising that we are all one, unity, to

move towards unity. if this bodily existence, or the image, continues, then that unity will not

be possible. We cannot go to the unity except through the medium of the image, so the image

is the cause of unity as well as the cause of the creation of separateness. We have to leave

this medium to go forwards towards that unity.

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Actually, your question was in what part does this image arise. He explains that there are

four subdivisions in Antahkaran - Ahamkar, Chitta, Manas and Buddhi - so this image arises

in your Antahkaran and passes through these four divisions. He gives a very good example:

People living in London can come to India and meet people here, and people living in India can go to London and meet people there, but India and London cannot meet. People living there can come here and people living here can go there and meet.

So similarly the Atmans can meet, although the Atman is there and here also. But the bodies

cannot become one. The souls, which are inside the bodies can become one, but the two

bodies cannot be welded together for they have got their separate existence.

N.G.H. So the Param-Atman relates to the unity or the Real where the image relates to the

Play or the Maya?

H.H. Yes, it is all Maya except Param-Atman. There are five elements with Akasha the

atmosphere - that unity is one and the same, but as you go towards more solid things like

water, fire, these are what we call elements (JADA), they move towards increasing solidity,

from ethereal element we go to more solid element. Akasha is ether and we move towards

earth which is more solid, so unity is possible amongst ethereal elements, but not amongst

solid elements.

N.G.H. Since my last visit to H.H. I have noticed a change in the experience of Ahamkar.

Often the Ahamkar identification with the body mind aspect has fallen away. The realisation

and memory that the Param-Atman has become everything knocks out the usual Ahamkar

sense.

H.H. There are two types of Ahamkar. One is pure Ahamkar and the

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other is impure Ahamkar. Now pure Ahamkar relates to Atman and impure relates to the

body, so the purer your Ahamkar is, the more it is associated with the Param-Atman. If it is

impure, it is related to the body. It is desirable to eliminate the impure Ahamkar. The idea

that ‘I am Atman’ cultivates pure Ahamkar. Your realisation that you are Atman is also

Ahamkar, in this case it is pure Ahamkar.

N.G.H. What you said before about Bhakti - that attitude - I have found that since my last

visit that attitude of mind has been developing and growing and this seems to have this

strong effect on the Ahamkar. It gets more and more related to Atman and this is what has

brought up this question.

H.H. The key word is Aham, which means ‘‘sense of individuality’’. If this Ego is

connected with the body, then it becomes Ahamkar - Kar is ‘vehicle’. So if the bodily

vehicle is attached to Aham, then it is Ahamkar (it is impure), but if it is attached to your

Soul (Param-Atman) then it is pure Aham.

N.G.H. At times it seems to do away with ordinary feeling of there being an inner and outer.

With the lessening of identification with the ordinary picture of myself, the mind comes to

rest. There is an emptiness. Confidence grows in the truth of the statement that the Self has

become everything. At such times, everything is seen as an expression of that Self. It is a joy

and light-heartedness to enter into play of everything. I have become everything.

H.H. There are two divisions or aspects of Sadhana, practice; one

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aspect is that ‘I am everything’ - that is Bhakti; and the other is that ‘everything else is in me’

- that is Jnana; ‘affection for everyone’ is Bhakti , and ‘there is nothing else except Atman’ is

Jnana. (This is made of metal (pointing to tape recorder), that is made of metal (to window

frame), so many things are made of metal, this is one aspect, this is Bhakti. The other is,

there is nothing except iron - one is all things are made of iron, there is nothing but iron.)

Manifestation - there are two ways, manifestation of Lord in everyone - cause and effect -

those who see the cause, that’s Jnana - those which see the effect, that’s Bhakti - there’s

nothing but God that is cause - that is Knowledge - Jnana. By looking at man, one knows that

this is the creation of God, God is the creator - that’s knowledge, Jnana, but when we say that

He is Himself present here, that is Bhakti.

N.G.H. What would be the effect of the purified Ahamkar in the Antahkaran - what effect

does the purification of the Ahamkar have on the Antahkaran?

H.H. Antahkaran is lighted by Atman so the Shuddha Ahamkar throws a lot of light on

the Antahkaran, so that the purification of Ahamkar elevates Antahkaran.

N.G.H. And how would a Realised man - how would the purified Ahamkar affect the

actions of a Realised man? Everything he does would be the expression of the Self?

H.H. The only difference would be that when Antahkaran is not there,

then the light will exist - Atman will exist.

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The sun is lighting this house – when the house is no longer there, the light will still be there – but when the light shines on the other hemisphere, then there will be no light – the house will be dark.

Similarly, when there is purified Ahamkar, then there is enlightenment in the Antahkaran.

When the Antahkaran is in the body - when the body is not there - the Atman still will be.

(N.S.A. I can’t conceive of the Atman going to another hemisphere!)

The difficulty arises by our feeling that Atman is inside the Antahkaran - this is the general

concept - while the fact is that the Antahkaran is inside the Atman.

There is light in this room, but this light is not of the room, it is coming from outside,

it is from the sun. So it would be wrong to say the room has light - the source of light is

outside the room.

So the Atman is outside. Antahkaran is in the Atman, not Atman in the Antahkaran.

N.G.H. What is the best way to weaken the identification of the Ahamkar with the

body-mind machine?

H.H. If you identify yourself with the Atman and not with the body, that is the best way.

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Allahabad AUDIENCE 2 28th December, 1979

N.S.A. I showed the map to H.H. and he understood the position of New Zealand vis-à-vis

other countries. Then I expressed my regrets to him that I did not bring it to his notice earlier

- my mistake - about permission for Mr. Michael Harris to initiate. He said that there is no

difficulty - he has his blessings. Then I told H.H. about the Sanskrit that you have (Initiation

Ceremony) and he says he will do as you wish. Now, today’s programme.

N.G.H. Yesterday, H.H. said there are two aspects of Sadhana; the Bhakti aspect ‘I am

everything’ would seem to be the easiest and best Sadhana for the Householder. Is this so?

H.H. H.H. confirms that the Bhakti aspect of Sadhana is the easiest and best for the

Householder. He re-emphasises that by thinking that ‘Everyone else is my own Self’ there is

a feeling of oneness with them and that is responsible for creating a sort of affection. When

‘I am present in everyone’ then I love myself so my love is spread out to everyone of them

and that is Bhakti.

N.G.H. I was wondering how much knowledge is needed in the way of the Householder,

because a householder must have a certain knowledge as well.

H.H. Knowledge is also a kind of Bhakti - devotion. Because without knowledge there

can’t be any devotion. You have to have some knowledge to have devotion. So the two -

devotion and knowledge - are inter-

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related. Knowledge will be there if there is devotion. It will automatically come. So let a

householder start with Bhakti and the necessary knowledge will come automatically.

N.G.H. So if one does see the Self in everyone that is knowledge also, isn’t it?

H.H. Knowing is Jnana (knowledge) and accepting something is Bhakti. if you know and

then accept then that is perfect. If you accept something without knowing, then there is room

for doubt and there is a likelihood of getting muddled. But if you know and then accept, that

is perfect.

N.G.H. That of course is necessary for the householder.

N.S.A. Yes, excuse me, why only for the householder? Why not necessary for everybody?

N.G.H. Yes, of course.

Yesterday H.H. also said that the way to weaken identification of the Ahamkar with the body

was to identify myself with the Atman. This identification with the Atman seems to have two

aspects - one related to knowledge and one related to action. First, I need to know I am

Atman. I need to know that I was not born, I need to know that everything is going on within

me. This is the knowledge aspect; and second, I need to act in relation to my occupation in

the market-place. How does one act while remembering the Param-Atman?

H.H. The disassociation of yourself with the body will kill your false

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Ahamkar (ego) in both these respects: in the respect of knowledge and in respect of action.

Because, when you do something and you consider it is being done not by you as doer, but

because it is your duty, it being a service, you are doing it because somebody else has desired

you to do it. Therefore you are not the doer of it, you are only carrying it out at the behest of

someone else.

N.G.H. Is this the idea of Dharma?

N.S.A. H.H. used the word ‘seva’, ‘sevabhav’, instead; ‘karta’, ‘kartabhav’, means ‘doer’

and seva means service. So you do it as part of your duty as a service and not with an ego

that ‘I am doing it’. So, when you disassociate yourself with the body, that will kill your

Ahamkar of action also. So when you are not the doer, then you will not be responsible to

reap the consequences of that doing (action). Someone else will be responsible for it, and

therefore you will get liberation.

The bondage comes when you consider yourself to be the doer. When you are not the doer,

then the effect of the consequences will be reaped only by the person who is doing. If you are

not doing, then you will not get the consequences of that action. You will get liberation.

N.G.H. The following question is from Ross Mitchell, who accompanied us on our previous

visit:

R.M. Sometime ago, as the result of carrying out an exercise to remember the Param-

Atman at all times, I had the following experience when walking one morning: ‘‘Suddenly,

for a brief moment, creation as we usually know it, disappeared. It simply was not there.

There was

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instead only One. Unknowable by the normal mind, but familiar. Dark but not empty, potent,

joyful, real, eternal. It was recognisably the same as one has experienced in meditation. After

a moment this passed. I realised that I had seen things as they really are. They are always like

that - just a sense of pure consciousness and existence. It was just as simple to attach the

sense of ‘I’ to that pure consciousness as to the mind-body machine as I habitually do.’’

I realise that this experience has enabled me to pass on the teaching to others with a degree

of understanding previously not possible. Because it has given me an understanding of the

fundamental Vedantic Teaching: Brahman is Real, the universe is not Real, Brahman and

Atman are One.

I would be grateful if H.H. could explain what the Shankaracharya Tradition teaches about

the states of consciousness experienced with the above experience.

H.H. The Shankaracharya Tradition is that Brahman and Atman are One. This is correct.

As far as your experience is concerned, the consciousness of ‘I’ you speak of - is only a

situation; this is the sort of position which is different from the person who is seeing it. The

person who is conscious is separate from what he is seeing around him. He saw that

everything had vanished. Who sees it? That everything has vanished? That person is separate

who sees that everything is vanished. There are two individualities - one who says that

everything has vanished, he is separate from the things that have vanished. So that is why it

is only a situation.

But this situation is also sattvic, it is good. One should feel happy that such situations do

arise - it is sattvic.

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N.G.H. I wonder if you could ask H.H. if there is some exercise that Mr. Mitchell could

practise - he finds it very useful to have something to carry in mind. Is there something we

could take back for him to practise?

N.S.A. Practise to do what – to get what? He is getting those sorts of experiences?

N.G.H. To help him in his endeavours.

H.H. It is not necessary to have many practices - many ways of practise.

He gives a very good illustration:

You pass a law degree and then you start practising. Now when you practise you gain experience. A person with one year’s practice will have lesser experiences than someone with fifteen years’ practice. But you don’t have to pass Law finals again and again. You have passed it already and by your practising in the courts you get certain experiences.

Similarly in meditation also, you have learnt the theory and method of meditation; now you

practise it. You don’t have to change it from one practice to another; you have to go on

practising the same thing. As it goes deeper and deeper, your experience will be increased.

So you don’t have to change practices or acquire new practices. Whatever practice is being

done, it is to be continued and given greater time.

In India, in the beginning under the British Raj, there was a rule that no-one may ride in a carriage with four horses without permission of the Government. Once upon a time there was a person engaged in the business of building carriages. He built one and harnessed four horses and then went around to try it out and see if it was all right. When he reached a crossing, the traffic police stopped him in the street and asked him whether he had permission. He said he had not, so they arrested him. Later on he was produced before a court and let off on bail. He went around to the lawyers one after another and they all said ‘The rule is you can’t ride in a carriage with four horses without permission, so naturally, there is no escape for you’.

18 Ultimately, he went to a lawyer who was very old and who had learned the

same law as others, but he had lots of years of practice to his credit. So he said when the carriage-builder approached him: ‘I will need to see the carriage and horses before I can give you any advice.’ The carriage and horses were brought. He inspected them and then asked for a fabulous fee. ‘If you pay me this fabulous fee, I will be able to get you off.’ In order to save his own skin, the man paid the money. The lawyer said, ‘Appear on the fixed date along with carriage and horses.’ The carriage-builder objected: ‘I was arrested for only going out once on a trial run - if I go out in the carriage a second time, which will be to the court, I do not know what will happen to me!’ The lawyer said, ‘Don’t worry, I am responsible for whatever happens.’

So the carriage-builder went to the court, the lawyer appeared and said: ‘My

lord, you can inspect the horses, the alleged horses, and you will see there is only one horse and three mares - (laughter) - so he has not committed any offence.’

The knowledge of law was the same as it was for the others, but it was the older lawyer’s

power of observation which he had developed by virtue of his long practice. That made the

difference.

So H.H. says that by continual practice, he will get that aptitude which will be helpful in

getting him what he wants - not by changing the method of practice.

N.S.A. (To M.J.H.) It appears H.H. is conscious of your presence!

(M.J.H. is a lawyer.)

B.R.H. At times, when for a moment the habitual identification with the moving mind

(manas) weakens, I am aware of a continuous ‘underground’ current of desires like an engine

left to run all the time. This seems to determine the limits of one’s ordinary level of

consciousness. Occasionally, when a brief space occurs between these desires, a quite

different dimension is experienced. It is completely different from the ordinary state. This

ordinary state seems, by contrast, to be very limiting and confined, instead of being

‘weakened’ by such an experience, i.e. opened out.

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(N.S.A. sought some clarification re ‘engine left running’, ‘ordinary level of consciousness’,

‘different dimension of consciousness’.)

N.S.A. It appears that H.H. understood your question much better than I do!

H.H. He says that there are two types of desires, one is natural desire, for example, one

feels hungry and eats. Now this is a normal or natural desire - it keeps on coming and being

satisfied and then naturally, if it is not satisfied, after a time it rises again. The same desire

comes up again; for a while you feel you are satisfied, but after a while that desire comes

again. So there is a desire that comes up, gets satisfied, lies low, comes up again, gets

satisfied, lies low, this sort of thing - you don’t have to bother about that.

But when you get something which you like, and you are feeling attached to it, then there is a

very keen desire to hold onto that particular thing. When there is that keen desire then you

have to control it. In the other case, you don’t have to control that desire, for it will just come

and go. But when there is a very keen desire to hold on to anything, then you have to control

that desire, rather than let it be fulfilled.

Then there will be no puzzle as you feel, within the gap of the fulfilment and unfulfilment.

Because if it is fulfilled there will be happiness, and if it is not fulfilled then there will be

unhappiness. Therefore, the best thing in such cases is to control the desire rather than allow

it to be fulfilled and in the other case, let it be unfulfilled.

B.R.H. Could H.H. say more about the control of that desire? It’s one thing to force it away,

but quite another to control it.

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H.H. The best way to control is to have contentment - the feeling that God alone is the

best judge of what is best for me; what He has given me is best for me. And if you have that

sort of contentment, then you will be able to control that keen desire and you will feel happy

in whatever circumstances you are placed.

Some sage has said that when your desire has not been fulfilled, you should feel happy that the desire of God (Param-Atman) has been fulfilled, because nothing happens without His desire, and whatever has happened, that is His desire that has been fulfilled in preference to your desire. And so, since you claim to be affectionately attached to the Lord/Param-Atman, you should feel happy that His desire has been fulfilled. ‘The desire of my Beloved has been fulfilled instead of my own desires.’ This is the way to live a happy life.

A person who can bear with adversities will always remain happy. It’s a sort of meal for

Atman to remain happy always because we are part and parcel of Sat-Chit-Ananda. Ananda

is the quality of God and we are part and parcel of God. Therefore, we like to be happy, and

if we are happy, then that is a sort of food for Atman.

B.R.H. This underlying current of activity seems to be powered by ideas of ‘me’ and ‘mine’

and ideas of achievement, but is usually beyond my ordinary awareness. The only thing I

have found to be of real help is the idea of surrendering the activity itself and any results to a

higher Intelligence - to That which lives within the hearts of all. Is this a form of Bhakti?

H.H. Surrendering the activity is really Bhakti, there’s no doubt about that. But the results

of one’s actions are controlled by that Higher Intelligence (Param-Atman) because if they are

not controlled by that Higher Intelligence (Param-Atman) then we will accept the result of

our

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good actions, but will not like to accept the result of our bad actions. So someone else has

got to get control - that’s why a person who is a devotee will consider that whatever is

happening, although the result of his own actions, it is being controlled by someone else.

B.R.H. (To N.S.A.) What is the word used for Higher Intelligence in this context?

N.S.A. I understood by what he said, the Creator, Lord, Param-Atman.

B.R.H. Because it seems to relate more to Intelligence than the Heart. (Yes) But that is just

the way I experience it.

M.J.H. I woke this morning with great joy to be here and be in Satsang with H.H., and the

story of the merry Mahatma came to mind who sat under the tamarind tree. I long to be like

him. He was so overjoyed at getting the message he did from the Lord, that the Lord came

down and embraced him then and there. Can H.H. talk further about the ‘direct route’,

perhaps further illustrations?

H.H. (laughs) (H.H. says that)

There are a number of persons living abroad, not all of whom come here. They don’t get this

possibility of Satsang, of being with H.H.. Well, you are indeed - I don’t know whether I

should use the word ‘lucky’ - you are indeed favoured, in the sense, by the Lord that you got

this possibility. So this itself shows that you have been accepted and you are being embraced

by the Lord. The experience which you had this morning was only a reflection of that

situation.

M.J.H. H.H. recently (in August) gave Lady Allan’s party knowledge which had enormous

significance for many, including myself. I refer to what H.H. explained about the moment of

Samadhi, which is provided by nature

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between the cessation of one desire (vasana) and the arising of the next. If we can register

and extend the gap between one desire and the next, we can be recharged with energy by

nature. If a person fails to register and benefit from these moments of natural Samadhi, will

this not limit the person’s ability to experience Dhyana during his practice of meditation?

H.H. He says there is very little difference between Samadhi and Dhyana (deep

meditation) because in either of them, the effort is to be without any desire (sankalpa)

(vasana). When a desire (vasana) arises and in between the fulfilment of it and the arising of

another desire, there is a gap.

Now in meditation also we try to be without any vasana, without any sankalpa. To be

without any vasana we try to create a kind of vacuum - mental vacuum - and that is a sort of

samadhi. So there’s not much difference from Samadhi. Of course with Samadhi there are

different types also; but meditation itself is a sort of Samadhi so the question of limiting

doesn’t arise. The longer the period of this gap, the greater will be the charging of energy for

doing your every-day work. Even when you are awake you can experience this gap, and if

you can increase this gap even then you will get energy. He says that everything is related in

the Cosmos; Vyashti and Samashti, individual and cosmos. Now if you remember that

connection, that relationship, then you receive power, but if you forget that relationship, the

source of power is disconnected. He illustrates this:

It is like a tank which you can fill or empty. This is like there being the arising of desire (that is painful) - if it has got some spring inside - in the bed of the tank - then if you let it for some time it will get filled up automatically.

If you are connected to Samashti, if you remember your connection with

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the Samashti then you will get power, then you are still. When there is no desire coming up.

During that period, it will work like a spring inside the bed of the tank, and you will get

charged.

He says something more about this charging of the battery. You get power while you are

still, but being still doesn’t mean that you don’t do any work. You can do work and yet be

still. That means that you know the work is being done by the body, but in the manas, in your

mind, there is no desire coming up or going down. If there is a vacuum of desire in your

mind, even though you may be doing some work by hand, you know that this work is being

done by the hand or the body, not by the mind (manas). Then there is a stillness there and

that will be responsible for charging your battery, your power.

M.J.H. H.H. has really anticipated the next question, but it might be just worth putting it in

case he adds anything. During Mr. & Mrs. Howitt’s last visit, H.H. described how Samashti

can recharge Vyashti through Dhyana. Is a similar thing taking place when a person is

recharged with energy during the natural Samadhi between one desire and the next?

H.H. He gives an illustration:

A battery, when it is discharged, has to be connected to a charging apparatus, but when it is charged, it is put on and connected to the car. While the car is running, the battery gets discharged and charged, both functions go on simultaneously. The use of the battery by the various mechanisms means that the battery is discharged, the functioning of the battery causes loss in its energy, but at the same time, the dynamo is charging it also.

The same thing happens in natural Samadhi. Both things go on simultaneously, discharging

and charging with the rise of your vasana and its being fulfilled and the gap between.

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A person who is very ill needs a long rest, but a person who is healthy takes his rest as he works; the two things go on simultaneously.

M.J.H. During Lady Allan’s party’s recent audiences, the description of the Samadhi

naturally available between desires (vasana) led on to a description of how a man can learn

to act without attachment to the fulfilment of desire. I have noticed that an underlying desire

to get my work finished consumes an enormous amount of energy. Does not the attachment

to the fulfilment of desire rob a man of the energy which he gains through Dhyana or by

connecting with the natural Samadhi between desires?

H.H. When you make a determination that you will finish this work, then there is a sort of

burden which causes this enormous loss of energy. If you do not have that determination, but

let the thing be done, let it start, let it finish, but do not get attached to that determination that

‘I will finish it’, ‘I will get up only when I have finished it’, then that loss of energy will not

occur. It will be a natural thing for the work to come up and to get finished. Work should be

done as a part of duty. No work will ever get finished.

In big factories, as the bell rings, the work is left there where it is, and when there’s a break for lunch or time is up, then work wherever it is is left there and then. And then restarted from there again - there’s no determination that ‘I will not go home until I finish it.’

The second illustration uses a court of law:

As soon as the clock strikes four, the court rises. The case is adjourned and left where it is. It will be taken up again at the next hearing from that place onward.

So if you do not have that ego sort of thing ‘I will not get up until I have finished it’ -

‘then only will I get up’ - then there will be no burden and the extra loss of energy which

you are experiencing will not be experienced.

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M.J.H. Perhaps I could just add that the approach which H.H. has just been describing is

one of the most noticeable differences between our way of life in the West and here in India.

It is also one of the chief obstacles to our people experiencing deep meditation because in the

West we try to cram so much in so short a period of time through desire.

H.H. What H.H. has been recommending does not mean laziness or lethargy. In life

everything has got a sort of place and every work should get equal importance. When we try

cramping things in a small space, that only means we are robbing some other work of its due

importance, by trying to finish it at the cost of some other thing that is waiting. One has to

give equal importance to all the aspects of work, and that can only be achieved when you

think you are doing it for the sake of your duty. This will not mean any laxity or lethargy.

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Allahabad AUDIENCE 3 29th December, 1979

The audience was started with a question of Prasad. The full understanding and practice of

Prasad, it was felt, would be very significant in the life of the Householder. The practice of

Prasad, it was felt, was a powerful idea to weaken the narrowing down view of the limited

ego sense.

N.G.H. The descriptions given over the last two days of Bhakti by H.H. have shed much

light for me on the path to God Realisation for the householder.

Could H.H. explain the concept of Prasad? Could he explain its Cosmic and individual

aspect?

H.H. Whatever we have is part and parcel of the Cosmos. This body represents the Earth

of the Cosmos; Mind represents Moon; the power of Seeing represents the Sun; the Intellect

represents Brahma; Chitta represents Vishnu; and the Ego (Ahamkar) is the particle of Shiva.

Shiva is known to be the God for Ahamkar. So that whatever we have, the individual is the

particle of the cosmos.

Shiva experiences two states of mind. When He is completely absorbed in His own Self, He

feels ‘I am He’. In that union, neither body nor mind functions. But when Shiva realises His

own Self, He dances about in joy, exclaiming, ‘What am I’, ‘What am I’.

Now, coming to the Prasad - normally it is associated with what we offer, and then we get

back from the Lord, that is the Prasad. The gift from the Lord is known as the Prasad; but

before we get the gift, we make our offering. So when we make an offering the Lord gives it

back.

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If I may use an illustration of my own (N.S.A.): You bring the basket of fruits to H.H. and

then what he gives you back that is prasad. The best way of prasad - this is connected with

Bhakti - is whatever we have got, it is the present of the Lord. In whatever circumstances we

have been placed - that is the prasad of the Lord. And that is the best aspect of the word

Prasad.

N.G.H. What is it that mankind as a whole offers back to the Creator? Does the whole of

man have some sort of function in reflecting back to the Creator?

N.S.A. I do not fully understand your question.

H.H. He doesn’t give anything back, he accepts it for himself. According to us, it is a sin

to accept anything without its being given by the Lord and being made prasad. We should

accept only as prasad and nothing else. And if we accept anything else without offering it to

Him first, then that is according to us, sin.

H.H. gives an illustration:

We cook our meals. Now having cooked the meal, if we offer it first to the Lord and then take it as prasad, that will be very healthy. But if, after cooking it, we start eating it without offering it, that would come under the category of sin. It will be very helpful for spiritual progress if we accept everything only after first offering it.

It is so even in doing our work - in performing our duties. Supposing we are in

the profession of law, when we start our day’s work - we first offer it to Him, ‘With your help, God, with your prasad, I’m going to argue this case’.

So whatever we do, we should first offer it, even apart from our own consumption, in our

work and duty, we can make it a prasad.

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N.S.A. Easy questions are answered easily. H.H. puts a question on your behalf: What is

the advantage of prasad? What is the utility of prasad? I said, ‘Let’s hear that Sir’.

H.H. The biggest effect of accepting prasad is that your individual ahamkar is removed.

Your personal ego is killed - that is the biggest advantage.

And it purifies your intellect if you accept by taking prasad, you purify your mind and your

body. And you become more suitable - eligible - for God’s spiritual roles.

N.G.H. In the life of the householder, when he sees everything going on around him as a

Great Drama and he plays his allotted role without identification, then happiness arises. Is

this what H.H. meant when he spoke of happiness being a sort of food for Atman?

H.H. H.H. was talking about food for Param-Atman. He was thinking that Happiness

comes in two ways.

If it is due to some external object, then it is certain that at one time or other, the external

object will go away. Whatever you get externally will also get lost. It is true that there is

some happiness when you get your desired object, but that happiness is transitory.

The happiness which is associated from inside - which comes from inside - that is the real

happiness. That will stay for a long time. And that is the real food for Atman. The happiness

which you get from inside - that being of a particular nature - that is the food for Atman.

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N.G.H. The following is a message from Mr. Channing-Pearce who is in charge of the

Auckland group. (Mr. Channing-Pearce visited H.H. with Mr. Howitt and Mr. Pickering in

January 1976)

J.C.P. H.H. said to me at the audiences in January 1976 that he would exercise his power -

his subtle person - to assist us in the holy efforts we were making. Since that time, His power

has been very evident and a constant reminder to us all. We are all very grateful for the

continuing knowledge and love which has been transmitted to us via Dr. Roles and Mr.

Howitt.

There are many times when the world seems to ‘catch up’ and a dark period arrives. His

power has come in through that darkness as a reminder and a guiding light and re-established

the direction we have to aim for. The opening of the heart: it is known that the answer to this

lies in the continued application of this work, but so many of the blockages that are known to

be there now seem to stand in the way of some of this application.

Can H.H. assist in giving some more help in this? So much of the problems with ourselves

seem bound up with this drying up of the juices of Love and one longs to be able to just

stand in awe and love for the Atman.

H.H. The juice of Love never dries up, it is perpetual. What happens is that we forget

about love because of our worldly problems. The forgetfulness intervenes and we lose sight

of that love for the Atman. But it is wrong to say that it vanishes or dries up. Now what we

have

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forgotten can be remembered again by Satsang and by remembering once again the

all-affectionate nature of Atman.

N.G.H. I am sure that will help the Auckland people.

N.S.A. Now a question from Mrs. Howitt - (a very intelligent question).

B.R.H. What effect do the moments of natural Samadhi that arise between desires (as

described yesterday) have on the Samskar - that is, on Prarabdha, Sancita and Kriyamana?

H.H. (N.S.A: An intelligent answer for an intelligent question.)

That is life (Jivan) and that is power (Shakti) - the natural Samadhi which intervenes between

two desires. He gives a very good illustration:

There is income, there is expenditure. In between the two there is balance. If there is no balance, then all expenditure and power will finish.

Similarly, if there is no power, there will be no further life. Life is the energy which you get

between these two desires, that is this period of natural Samadhi. Unless the life is

rejuvenated, the power recharged, there will be extinction.

B.R.H. Can I ask here if this power helps to dissolve the Samskar - the past associations?

H.H. It works both ways: it kindles good Samskar and destroys bad ones.

N.S.A. Mr. Harris: also a good question.

M.J.H. Yesterday, H.H. said that if one remembers the connection between Vyashti and

Samashti, one will receive power and be recharged.

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When we go home, we are sure to be asked: What are the best ways of remembering

Samashti? Could H.H. expand on the use of Antahkaran to establish this connection?

H.H. The connection is there already. It is not that you have to establish a connection. But

what happens is that when we get connected to worldly affairs, then the power or energy

which we get is lessened. But when we remember our connection with the Samashti, we feel

joy - we feel happy about it. You need to take medicine when you fall ill, so you need to

remember your connection with Samashti when you forget it. If you do not forget it, there is

no need to remember; the remembrance will be there automatically. Now every time you feel

you have forgotten, you have to remember - that is the easy way - to establish you

connection. Because the connection is there, it is not that it is disconnected. You have only to

keep it in your memory that the connection is there.

He gives a very good illustration:

A small child - a schoolboy - used to keep his pen in the upper pocket of his coat; that was his usual practice. One day he put it in the inner pocket. Now when he had reached his class and he had to write something, he searched the place where normally he kept it. Well, it was missing. He reported to the master: ‘I’ve lost my pen, someone has pinched it.’ The teacher asked other boys. No-one admitted that he had taken his pen, and the teacher admonished them. There was a great hoo-ha, everyone was bothered over it - even the boy himself was unhappy about it. After some time he remembered that that morning he had put his pen in the inside pocket. He found it there and was happy. Everyone else was happy as well.

And similarly about our connection with the Samashti. The connection is there, we just

forget and that forgetting makes us unhappy. We get mixed-up with different troubles of the

world. But amidst those troubles of the world we are reminded of our connection with

Samashti - we feel the inner happiness and that happiness is the source of energy and power.

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M.J.H. H.H. has said that the closest relationship in the universe was between Jivatman and

Param-Atman. In our Antahkaran we continually forget that loving relationship.

H.H. There is a chamber in the Antahkaran which is known as Buddhi (intellect). This

forgetfulness is the function of that particular chamber - Buddhi*, intellect; remembrance

and forgetfulness.

N.S.A. H.H. was enquiring what word I was using for Buddhi. H.H. says that he tries to

speak very simple Hindi so that you (Mrs. Howitt) might be able to follow it.

M.J.H. H.H. told Lady Allan’s party in August that we should have less desires so that

better use could be made of consciousness. He gave the analogy of a canal and how the

number of openings onto the fields should be reduced. H.H. said: ‘Consciousness is only

consumed through desires (vasana)’. I would like to ask about that principle at the level of

Samashti. Is there a part of H.H.’s system which speaks of consciousness being consumed

and fixed into all the forms of the creation through the operation of the vasana of the

Creator?

H.H. It is the multiplicity of vasana (desire) which has to be stopped in order to gain

energy. If there are numbers of desires, we get lost into it and there is wastage.

The simile of the canal fits in this fashion, in that if there are a number of openings in the canal then not only the field will be watered, but there is a likelihood of water being wasted.

So that only a limited number of essential desires should be there.

*Note: Root ‘Budh’ - To wake up as from a swoon’.

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Superfluous desires, which are not essential, should be stopped, plugged to save water, to

save energy. And as far as the connection of these (desires) Vasana with the Samashti is

concerned, the Vasana of the Creator is very limited - only one. And that is a good Vasana,

and by that Vasana the creation comes out. He doesn’t have to desire many things at the

same time; there is only one desire, and that gives rise to this Creation.

So there is no objection to the desire being there, but the objection is that - reduce it to the

minimum, only when it is absolutely essential then throw up a desire. Otherwise try to avoid

it; and by avoiding it you will be increasing the gap between two desires. And by increasing

the gap between two desires, you will be feeling happiness.

N.G.H. Could I ask a simple question: what is the function of desire?

Desires are not independent; mostly they are connected with your previous Samskar. But

some new desires arise by virtue of present associations.

He gives an illustration:

A man is standing in the road and a very good car passes by. Instantaneously he feels like owning one himself - a desire arises; now if his Prarabdha helps him and he has got money also, then probably he may be able to fulfil that desire, otherwise it will just remain a futile desire in his mind. Now at this juncture, H.H. was reminded of an old lady who happened to come here. She was blind. She had four sons. The first thing she said to H.H. was ‘Sir, do something by which I might get back my sight’, and in a minute thereafter she said, ‘I’ve got four sons, my second son has got no child, can you bless my son to have a child?’ She said, ‘The two wives of two sons, they don’t obey me, kindly do something that they may obey’, then again she said, ‘My eldest son is not doing well in business, can you shower your blessing

34

so that he may improve’. This way she narrated about seven or eight desires, one after the other. H.H. heard her patiently, and ultimately said: ‘Look here, you are on the verge of death, why don’t you ask, ‘‘Kindly let the Lord do something by which He may have pity on me and may do something by which I may achieve the purpose of my life and be happier hereafter.’’ You have asked for so many things, all things are not possible. If you had asked only one thing, then it would probably have been possible to help you. But to help you in getting all those circumstances suitable to you, that is not possible.’

Similarly, when we have many desires, then the Lord will find it very difficult to fulfil all of

them. And actually all of those desires are not exactly essential ones, many of them are not.

The purpose of desire (which was your main question) is if it is associated with your

previous Samskar* to finish that Samskar. If it is a new one, it will create new Samskars.

The lesser the desire, the lesser will be the chance of creating new Samskars, but if you say

that you have no desire, that is not possible because you have been given this birth because

of your previous Samskars. In order to reap the result of those Samskars, you have got to

make certain desires, so the effort should be to limit the desire so that we only do the reaping

part, not the cultivating part.

N.G.H. What is the substance of Antahkaran? Is it the substance of Prakriti?

H.H. Antahkaran is not any substance. It is a place which in Hindi we call Hrdaya

(essential centre). It is different from heart. Heart is something substantial. Antahkaran is not

any substance, it is just like this room, a space, where the light of the Lord is being reflected.

Just as through this window the light of the sun is coming into this room,

*Note: Dictionary has only Samskar - prenatal tendency.

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similarly in the Antahkaran, light is being reflected of the Almighty, Param-Atman. (N.S.A.

He was trying to explain it from the Yogic Prakriyar (one of the Scriptures) and the various

Sushumna and other Nadis - I said it will not be possible for me to explain it in English.)

By the side of the heart there is some space. That space, according to our scriptures, can be

measured by ten fingers, and in that space there is what is known as purusha, the size of a

thumb, which is responsible for energising all our organs. What we see, what we hear, what

we speak, what we touch, it is all energised by that purusha. That is the source of energy for

all the various organs. We call it Jiva.

N.G.H. We have been told that the Antahkaran functions at different levels - what is its

natural function on the causal level when sattva predominates?

H.H. H.H. starts with an illustration:

Antahkaran can be equated with a power house of electricity. Now the power house feeds energy by which we can make a fan work, neon light work, make the radio work, but the energy is the same. We can use it for different purposes with the help of different instruments, but the latent energy is the same.

Now in the case where Sattva predominates, there is peace; when Rajas predominates, there

is turbulence (Vikshepa), and when tamas predominates, then there is lethargy.

As far as causal level is concerned, what we call Karana Sharira, there the energy is dormant,

it’s not actually employed at causal level; the energy not actually functioning is in a dormant

state. When it comes up to other levels, subtle and gross, it manifests.

When it comes into the physical and subtle level, then it starts

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functioning, but at the causal level, it is in a latent stage.

B.R.H. (To translator) You used the word Sushupti*, what did H.H. use that for? We

previously had the word Sushupti as between causal and physical so that is middle level.

N.G.H. Does Antahkaran cease to function in Samadhi?

H.H. The power is there but no work.

N.G.H. Could H.H. explain the meaning of the words Sakshi** and Sakshicaitanya?***

H.H. The person or elements which knows everything is Sakshi; when I say I am Sakshi

of this table - it means I am seeing this table. Sakshi means the person who knows

everything. Sakshicaitanya is the consciousness of that person. He illustrates:

The learned person and his learning. The learned person is the Sakshi, and his learning is the Sakshicaitanya.

N.G.H. Could H.H. confirm: Is the Atman the reflection of the Param-Atman in the

Antahkaran?

H.H. He illustrates his reply:

There is sun and there is light of the sun. Now, the light is different from the sun in the sense that here you get the light but not the sun. But there can’t be any light without the sun, so the two are one and yet they are different.

Similarly, Atman is part and parcel of Param-Atman. Yet it is different. It is here as well as

there.

Note: Dictionary * Deep and dreamless sleep.

** Passive witness, seer.

*** Witnessing consciousness or intelligent reflection.

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In the Antahkaran, there is Atman; it is part and parcel of Param-Atman, and yet Param-

Atman is something far away also. Atman is not the entire Param-Atman, it is only a part of

Param-Atman and yet it has got all the properties of Param-Atman. It is small in size and yet

it has got all the qualities of Param-Atman. It is part and parcel of Param-Atman, yet it has

all the qualities.

N.G.H. Sometimes the word ‘Param-Atman’ is used for ‘Absolute’, and sometimes the

word ‘Brahman’ is used for ‘Absolute’. Could H.H. explain the different usage of these two

words?

H.H. There is the concept ‘space or vacuum’. Our word for ‘vacuum’ is Akasha and we

can describe it on three scales. One is in the pot, inside which there is space. There is space

in this room also, and there is vacuum beyond the Earth’s atmosphere (cosmos). Empty

space is there in all the three, but when it is connected with the Cosmos, it is known as

Brahman; when it is connected with the house, it is known as Param-Atman; when it is

connected with the pot, it is Jiva.

N.G.H. During my last visit, H.H. made it clear to me that the Atman is Knowledge. How is

the direct Knowledge of Atman made available to the Buddhi?

Could he explain the words ‘Abheda-Buddhi’* and ‘Akshara vidya’** and ‘Pratibha’***.

Note: Dictionary * The Buddhi that beholds unity.

** The imperishable knowledge: process of meditation

or Brahman.

*** Intelligence: Splendour of Knowledge.

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H.H. The knowledge of Atman is acquired by Buddhi, through Buddhi. You know about

Atman through Buddhi. Buddhi is there and by the exercise of that Buddhi you can know;

you can acquire knowledge about Atman.

Abhedabuddhi is that Buddhi by which you know there is no difference between Samashti

and Vyashti. The two are one. There is no difference between the two. Aksharavidya: that

learning by which you know all, is Aksharavidya. He gives an illustration:

All knowledge is not whole, unless you know Param-Atman. So if you know ABCD

then you can recognise it while reading. If you know the alphabet, you can know the

language, but unless you know the alphabet, you will not be able to make progress in the

language.

Pratibha is the expression of the development of Buddhi.

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Allahabad AUDIENCE 4 30th December, 1979

N.G.H. Please tell H.H. we would like to devote today to Meditation - questions on

Meditation. We see the Meditation as a method by which the ordinary space-time existence

may be transcended and the state of absolute Being entered into.

H.H. Yes, that’s correct. You enter into the realm of Absolute through medium of

Meditation. Meditation is not an end in itself - it is only the method to approach the

Absolute.

N.G.H. We feel the need of a little history of this system of Meditation. We have heard that

in the late 1940’s it became apparent to Guru Deva that a new method of work on Being was

needed for mankind today, who did not seem to have the fibre to follow the hard traditional

methods. We would be grateful if H.H. would tell us what events led up to his Master Guru

Deva discovering the simple system of Meditation we have inherited.

H.H. The system of Meditation is very old - the principle of Meditation is old. It is true

that Realized Persons (souls), when they come, try to make it easier, so as to suit the needs of

the present times. This actually, in effect, means that Guru Deva did not invent anything, the

principle of Meditation is always there - he only tried to simplify it for us.

N.G.H. Did he feel there was a need at the time to simplify it?

H.H. That is what H.H. has just said - this is the general property of all the Realized Souls

- they always try to make things easier for the

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generations that follow. Because degeneration is inherent in nature, as we go on from time to

time, degeneration must follow. So Realized Souls always do as was done by the last Guru

(Guru Deva) - make things easier.

B.R.H. Was the form that it was given this time particularly to help those in the West who

have no tradition of Meditation?

H.H. The easier method adopted now was not only with a view to the needs of the

Westerners. It was with a view to meet the needs of all. Even in the East, people were getting

weaker and weaker. They were not able to resort to the same old austere penances which the

Rishis and the Munis used to do before. So that the easiest method of Meditation was

evolved for the needs of all, not particularly for the Westerners or Easterners.

H.H. gives an illustration that ‘Veda’ was originally one word – ‘Om’ Pranav. But later on

it was divided into four sections - Yajurveda, Atharvaveda, Rigveda and Samaveda. Later on

even this was found to be difficult. Commentaries were written. Then it was found that even

the commentaries could not be understood. Then it was further simplified till Vyasa came

and he wrote the substance of them in the form of the stories and anecdotes, history.

So this is very old practice here in India, that as the Realized Persons come, they know the

past, the present and the future, so that they can envisage what is coming, and with keeping

that in view they give their Teachings.

N.G.H. We have heard that the system of Meditation we are practising is based on the fifth

step, Pratyahara; sixth step, Dharana; seventh step,

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Dhyana; and eighth step, Samadhi, of Patanjali’s Raja Yoga. Is this so?

H.H. The previous practice of Raja Yoga was to go through all the eight stages, one after

the other, but it was felt that with the growing deterioration in the capacities of persons, it

would be a very heavy load; people would lose their patience if all the stages were gone

through. So it was thought proper to start with the seventh step, Dhyana. Now when a person

does Dhyana, then all the previous six steps automatically in some degree come. Previously

they were made to practise these previous steps one after another. Then they were considered

fit to enter the realm of the seventh step. But now we start with the seventh step. When you

sit for a Dhyana or a Meditation, Yama, Niyama, Asana and Pranayama, Pratyahara and

Dharana, these six automatically come. For example:

‘Yama’ means control. When you sit, you control yourself naturally; you have a fixed time,

that comes under Niyama – ‘Niyama’ means discipline. ‘Asana’ means sitting erect; actually,

the Scriptures say one should sit comfortably in a relaxed position. It’s not sitting

cross-legged, but essential part is to sit in a relaxed situation comfortably. So you are allowed

to sit in a chair, but you are asked to keep your spine straight, which is a part of Asana.

Then the fifth is Pratyahara. ‘Pratyahara’ means when your mind goes out and you have to

bring it back. So in Dhyana you are meant to keep yourself concentrated, you don’t go out.

Then comes Dharana. ‘Dharana’ means the pause between two desires. So in Dhyana, you

achieve that also to some extent; there is no desire, the pause which comes between the two

desires is being practised in

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Dhyana. So all the six steps automatically are imbibed to some extent in Dhyana. So,

although we start now with Dhyana, the seventh step, actually we are covering the entire

range.

N.G.H. Would you tell H.H. that in Meditation, once the body becomes very still, this

seems to make everything else so much easier. This very still state of the body seems to be a

big key in Meditation?

H.H. The Bhagavad Gita, which consists of the words of Lord Krishna, says one has to be

still and comfortable, in a relaxed position. Before actually going into the next question

which you have just raised, connected with your previous question H.H. gives a history, an

illustration:

Brahma is one of our Lords, Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh. Brahma the Creator. His son Prajekitas and his son Valmiki. Valmiki was the first poet in Sanskrit. But before he became a poet, he got into bad associations - bad company. He was a householder, he had children. And he was meeting his own needs and those of his family by stealing things and by killing people and looting. Once upon a time, some Rishis happened to come down there and they explained to him, ‘Look here, whatever you are doing to maintain your family is not good for your future. You had better go and ask them whether they who are enjoying the fruits of your ill-deeds will also take part in the consequences which you are about to get by doing these deeds. Whether they will be participants in the results also.’ He went home and asked them. ‘It’s none of our concern how you get us the money, how you feed us. We are your obligation and you have to feed us. Why do you do wrong things to feed us? Do only good things. We don’t ask you to do bad things to feed us! So we are not going to share in the result of your bad deeds! Well, that opened his eyes, and he came back to the Rishis and said: ‘Do something, tell me something by which I can now improve my future.’ These Rishis then told him to sit down and chant the mantra ‘Ram’. But he was so much used to these ill-deeds that he could not chant the word ‘Ram’. When he found it difficult, then the Rishis agreed, ‘0.K. If you can’t say ‘Ram’, say ‘Mira’ (which means killing). But say it quickly.’ So he started repeating it. It was natural for him to kill, so he could do it easily. He said ‘Miramiramiramira’. By saying ‘Miramira’ quickly, it became ‘Ramram-ram’. He then got so much absorbed in it that he sat still, and this stillness was the cause of his Dhyana.

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By saying ‘Mira’ and, becoming ‘Ram’ it was the same, he got so engrossed in it that in the period of about a year his entire body was covered with clay. Ants made their home in that clay. He didn’t feel it because he was engrossed in something else. He was so still that he didn’t mind what had happened to his body. After a year, the Rishis came again and removed that earth and they found that he was all enlightened. They said, ‘Now you have become perfect’. After that, he developed the power of seeing into the future, and he wrote the Ramayama even before Rama was born! H.H. concludes from this that it is the sitting still which is the key. Whether you say ‘Ram’ or ‘Mira’ is not the point. It is this sitting and getting absorbed that is the main thing.

M.J.H. At the time of initiation, there are two portraits on the altar. One is of Guru Deva

and the other the present Shankaracharya. These must obviously represent the manifestation

of God. Is it the function of the initiator to link the new initiate with God through the Divine

Teachers?

H.H. This is the old tradition. (He refers to the recitation on the written copy of the

initiation ceremony): It starts with Narayan, from him Vasishta Shakti, from him

Padma-Bhovam (Brahma): these are all teachers, gurus. It comes down to Shankaracharya

then Padma Padan, Hastam Laakam - these are all disciples. So much so that in the same

tradition comes Guru Deva; from Guru Deva comes H.H..

So, it is a long chain, and the Teachings have originated from Narayan himself, the Lord

Vishnu. It is not that the disciples are left to use their own imaginations - the principles are

old. It will look different at the present time and at the subsequent times when the technique

may have changed; but the principle remains the same. They do not have the freedom to

change the principles.

M.J.H. Is it correct that at the moment of giving the Mantra, the Mantra

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is in some way implanted in the Prakriti or the Karana Sharira (Causal Body) of the new

initiate?

H.H. Yes, that is so.

M.J.H. How can the initiator best prepare himself so that there will be the necessary energy

for that implanting of the Mantra to happen?

H.H. It’s not only that you as an initiator have to prepare yourself, you have also to

prepare your disciples. So the teacher has to read before he can teach, and we have to do both

things - you have to prepare yourself by your practice and see that your disciples also learn to

do the practice.

He gives an illustration to which he already referred yesterday:

Those who are old practitioners have an advantage over new practitioners. There can be new drivers of a car and old drivers. New car-drivers and old drivers, both can drive a car, but in the moment of difficulty, the old driver will steer clear, while the new driver will fumble. So the experienced driver will be able to steer clear. Similarly, the initiator who has got longer practice behind him should be able to initiate and teach the newcomers by virtue of his older practice. The length of practice which you have had beforehand will give you power to initiate and bring to culmination your disciples - to teach them properly the process of Dhyana (Meditation).

M.J.H. The implanting of the Mantra at that deep level - is that done by the power of the

tradition and the Divine Teachers in it? Does that take care of it, at the moment of giving the

Mantra?

H.H. That is right, you carry the blessings and the power, energy of the previous

tradition.

M.J.H You remember how I was telling you yesterday that in our own

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society, it is as though people have forgotten the nearness of God. In actual fact, our people

come for the initiation into Meditation with almost no prior training. They have heard about

the Meditation perhaps for only one week. They are told that it will help their efficiency, that

they will find the source of life through it, but beyond that there has not been much other

preparation. We have often wondered whether there should be more.

H.H. That isn’t a difficulty - it doesn’t make any difference. If they come only to improve

their efficiency, that’s all that is necessary. H.H. says that is much better, because they have a

certain amount of attraction; they have, as it were, an axe to grind to improve their

efficiency. if they come with that particular object, it is all right. Because they will get the

energy, they will get efficiency, but in addition to that, they will get in touch with the source

of energy. Not only will they get energy and that by-product will be there, but they

automatically get connected to the Source of energy which will be of greater importance to

them. So H.H. says that it’s all right, it should not be a worry.

Suppose there are two persons who are unwell, one is a child and the other is an adult. Now the adult knows if he takes the bitter medicine that will cure him; the child has not heard about the bitter medicine. But he knows sweet things, so he is given bitter medicine with sugar. In his desire to take sugar he takes bitter medicine also. So that is perfectly all right; we shouldn’t bother about it at all.

M.J.H. Except that there is no sweeter thing than Dhyana!

N.G.H. As Meditation guides in New Zealand, we are often told the experiences of new

meditators. We guide them back to the Mantra, but as guides we feel it necessary to

understand these experiences. Could

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H.H. explain the following:

After being initiated, one person said: ‘A section of my mind carried on the Mantra without

prompting or attention. A light-heartedness preceded a pulsing expansion in the head, but not

in any physical sense. I seemed to rise to a vast overall view that was there and which was

not accessible by either any path or any effort.’

H.H. Internal uplifting does not necessarily have any outside expression, but yet the

internal uplifting is basic, is more important and is fundamental.

A car is moving very fast on the road, say a speed of 80 or 90 miles per hour. You will feel the car is moving very fast, but at the same time, an aeroplane is flying above at a much faster speed. It will appear as if the car is going faster than the aeroplane, because he will see the car nearer than the aircraft. The car will therefore appear to be going faster than the aeroplane.

Similarly, since we are used to seeing outside things, we may not appreciate so much the

internal upliftment as what we are seeing outside. At the same time, it is the internal

upliftment that is the real thing.

N.G.H. Another initiate spoke of how he found the Mantra vibrating at the base of the

spine; it seemed to move up the spine to a place above his head. What is taking place here?

H.H. Some people feel, experience that sort of thing. It is not abnormal. The

Chetan-Shakti (energy) by the recitation of the Mantra gets a tendency to go upwards, and as

the Chetan-Shakti travels through the spine, one feels that the Mantra is going up.

N.G.H. What guidance should one give to such a person?

H.H. The guide should tell him to carry on and in course of time this

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will settle down, because it is in the beginning stage that things like this happen. Sometimes

one experiences jerks. Sometimes one experiences a feeling of pulsation all of a sudden, just

as lightning comes suddenly. That sort of feeling you can get, but it will all settle down. It’s

only in the initial stages that this sort of thing happens.

N.G.H. Another initiate said upon receiving the Mantra:

‘The mind opened up - it seemed immense - unlimited. The vibrating mantra permeated

everywhere. There was light and love everywhere too.’ What guidance here?

H.H. This stage shows that the happiness which was confined before to feelings of joy

and sorrow, is now coming up and developing towards unlimitedness - sort of ananda. The

ananda is developing. Nothing in particular is to be done. He has only to be told you are

getting on along the right lines.

N.G.H. Those who have been meditating longer have given the following experiences

which we would also like explained:

‘I saw this light at the end of a tunnel. It was light that had no external source. It seemed

related to the Self, it seemed to be always there.’

H.H. This tunnel is some Nadi* (pronounced Naree) inside, probably the Sushumna Nadi,

(the seven autonomic plexuses) and at the end of it he sees that light which is his own light in

the head. It is small inside, but he feels that it is very big and so it is perfectly all right.

* Note: Dictionary – “nerve path, psychic current”.

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N.G.H. Could I ask about this light in the head? Could H.H. say a little about what that

light in the head is?

H.H. It is like the headlight of a car and sometimes it shines and other times it disappears.

N.G.H. After a period of good meditation, this inner light seems to come during deep sleep.

When I awaken in the morning, it seems that there is a memory of this inner light which is

ever-shining. Could H.H. explain this experience?

H.H. Dreams in sleep are also of three kinds - sattvic, rajasic and tamasic. In sattva, such

dreams come as you describe.

N.G.H. In Wellington we have a member with a painful form of cancer. He has a strong

desire to meditate, but is concerned that the drugs given to kill his pain produce a state of

Bliss in him. He feels that finding Bliss through the drugs is cheating.

H.H. When he feels this Bliss (even as a result of a drug) at that time, he should try to

meditate. If he can’t, then he should know that his present condition is a result of previous

karmas, and that he has to bear it. But if he chants the Mantra aloud in that state of his health,

that will enable him to improve his future and also get strength to bear with the result of the

past.

B.R.H. One thing he finds difficult is that he doesn't have as much attention as he would

like to give to the Mantra. Is there any way he could use the Mantra so that he can stay with

it more easily? One of

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the effects of the drugs is that he goes to sleep and loses his attention. Could he repeat it

aloud or is there some other way?

H.H. He should get rest, that is primary. As and when after the period of rest or sleep he

comes back to consciousness, he should repeat the Mantra, that will help.

The drugs given are not likely to cure him, but only have the effect that he doesn't feel the

pain which he would otherwise (normally does) feel, and as a result of the drug, he

sometimes loses consciousness also. I suggest that before he loses consciousness after taking

the medicine, when he isn’t feeling the pain, he should recite the Mantra. Should he go off

again, as soon as he regains consciousness, he should again go on with the repetition of the

Mantra. The effect of this will be much more than the drug.

N.S.A. Actually, H.H. has said at an earlier date that the period of this loss of

consciousness, when he isn't repeating the Mantra, will be treated as if he has been reciting

the Mantra throughout.

B.R.H. In what H.H. has said today and also many times previously, it seems that what is

so important is one’s attitude in such a situation. For most people, such an illness is thought

of as a calamity - the worst thing that could happen. Could H.H. say something about it being

a point of opportunity; can it be seen as that? We have been told that everything that happens

is right, it has a reason. Could he say something about approaching such a situation as a

terminal illness from this point of view?

H.H. There are two things, the good of the body and the good of the

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soul. Now this pain which he experiences is in the body. By his attitude he can do good for

his soul. Whatever he is experiencing in the body is the result of his previous karmas, but by

thinking good now, by thinking that whatever God has done is for the good, by taking that

attitude, he will be able to elevate his soul and that will give him energy for bearing this

trouble. As also in finishing the results of his previous karmas. But if he doesn't take this

attitude, and feels miserable about it, then what will happen is he will be creating new

associations which will carry and give him the next birth. He will again have to bear the

result of the bodily existence and bodily pain, so that this will go on.

But if he adopts the idea that whatever God is doing is for the good of my soul, then he

will go through this with a lighter heart, and will be able to finish the result of the previous

karma without creating any further.

M.J.H. The following is from a person who has also been meditating for some time: ‘Often

just after I have meditated, I feel a deep connection with the person who initiated me into

meditation (Mr. Howitt). On one or two occasions, I knew he had gone very deep in his

meditation. I was filled with Bliss from top to toe. Another time, although I was aware he

had not necessarily gone deep, I was in his meditation and not my own. I can remember

thinking how wonderful of him to have such feelings.

H.H. Wherever the initiator will go, he will take his disciple with him. The tradition of

the Guru is like an engine.

If ten carriages are attached to that engine, then these will run

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at the same speed as the engine, so that if ten disciples are attached to one Guru, they will run at the same speed as the speed of the Guru. But if they are disconnected, then you will need the manpower of ten people to even shift one carriage a very slow pace.

N.G.H. We have a lovely place in the country just near Wellington. We go there for one

week quite often and use that whole week for the practice of meditation. The last time we

went, we felt that the very strong presence of H.H. was there. It pervaded the place, and we

found this feeling of his presence did just that - it gave us energy to remember the Self - to

remember the Self has given everything, has become everything and it made the practice of

giving up attachments so much easier. We felt that it was his subtle presence - we were sure

of that!

H.H. By his memory, remembering, the Guru is present inside every disciple.

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Allahabad AUDIENCE 5 31st December, 1979

One hour was spent with two other translators hastily arranged by H.H. because of a sudden

commitment of Narayan’s. Questions with Narayan followed the pre-arranged sheet and

transcript is as follows. Before starting H.H. spoke quite a bit about Pleasure and Pain that

wasn’t translated.

N.G.H. I would like to ask some further questions on Raja Yoga.

It seems the force of pure Chit - Chetanshakti - in man (Jiva) is usually dissipated each day

through countless Vasana. Raja Yoga seems to be a method by which the Chetanshakti

(power) is gathered to one point. This would seem to give great force at that point. Is this

gathering done by the repetition of the Mantra?

H.H. The repetition of the Mantra develops concentration. With that concentration we get

into Dhyana. In other words, repetition of the Mantra leads to Dhyana. And by Dhyana we

get the power of the Chetanshakti.

Antahkaran controls the amount of energy that you are going to get. If it is vikshepa, it is by

vasana, if Antahkaran is in a disturbed state on account of vasana - there is vikshepa, then the

result will be the energy that you get will be reduced.

We get the energy only in Dhyana, but it is being spent during the vikshepa as disturbance

due to the vasana. In other words, by repetition of the Mantra, we get connected - vyashti

gets connected to samashti. So that, the connection being ‘on’, you start getting the power,

just like electric current.

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So your question is answered in this fashion: the repetition of the Mantra helps in

establishing that connection which gets the power; and the power gets concentrated and

charges you while you are in Dhyana.

N.G.H. Could H.H. say more on the stage Pratyahara? Could he please describe the effect

of the three Gunas on this stage?

H.H. Pratyahara actually means getting back your mind (manas) when it is going outside

- calling it back from the world. That is pratyahara. Now in Sattva, you are able to

concentrate quicker. When you do the Dhyana, you are able to get your mind (manas) back

quickly and concentrate. In Rajas you try to call it back, but it doesn't come for it remains

engrossed in the outside world. But in Tamas, even when you want to call it, it goes into a

sort of lethargy and you go to sleep or despair or something of that sort, which is associated

with Tamas. So in the third kind of Pratyahara, Tamas, the manas is not able to come back at

all. In Rajas it comes with difficulty, in sattva, it easily comes.

N.G.H. The purification of Chitta seems to play an important part at the step between

Pratyahara and Dharana; because it seems that in Chitta is held the image of the man in this

particular embodiment. During meditation it is this image that keeps the idea ‘I am

meditating’ going. Could H.H. clarify this?

H.H. This coming up of the image that ‘I am the meditator’ is Sattvic, and that is not to

be avoided; it is not a thing to be deplored. All right, it does come, that is correct - one need

not be bothered about it.

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This state is nearer to Dharana and is connected with Ananda - the pleasure (which is the

characteristic of the Lord - Satchitananda - so this is the Ananda part). The tendency is going

towards Ananda.

N.G.H. Yesterday H.H. said. ‘The principle of meditation is very old; Guru Deva did not

invent anything, he only tried to simplify it for us’. Could H.H. please explain this cosmic

principle of meditation?

H.H. This principle of meditation applies both to the Cosmos as well as the individual.

The individual meditates about the Cosmos; the Cosmos meditates about the individual.

A question was put to Lord Krishna. Once someone went to him and he found that Lord

Krishna was meditating. So he asked Lord Krishna: ‘We meditate about you; about whom

are you meditating?’ He said: ‘I am meditating about Bhaktas - about those who are

meditating about me.’

M.J.H. (Thanked H.H. for pronouncing the Initiation ceremony.) We’ll send a copy of that

part of the tape to Dr. Roles; they would like to have it too.

H.H. Just as H.H. has corrected this record (the written Initiation ceremony) of yours,

similarly he had asked Dr. Roles through Lady Allan in August last that all the records which

he has got so far may be scrutinised once again. If there is any mistake of any kind in the

records, they may be corrected through the agency of Mr. Jaiswal.

N.S.A. I have a letter from Dr. Roles, that he is on the job.

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M.J.H. We would like to understand something of the Initiation ceremony. Could you tell

us what attributes of Param-Atman or of Man the following stand for:

Flowers, white handkerchief, fruit, monetary offering?

H.H. These offerings, as it were, are only a symbolic matter. This only represents that

whatever we have we are offering to the Samashti. And when we use these for ourselves, we

will thereafter use them as a Prasad* from the Samashti. We do this only to start with as a

matter of establishing a connection - a sort of connection with Samashti.

He illustrates it:

When a child starts learning, he doesn’t read the book in one stroke. He is first told the alphabet, then words, then sentences. So this is the beginning where you are taught to make an offering of yourself. So those particular things have no value. They are only sort of representative of what you are using in your life.

M.J.H. We wanted to check this because a long time ago we were told I think for example

that flowers represented Shruddha, fruit the abundance of nature - things like this. We would

like to check whether that is correct and whether H.H. had anything he could add.

H.H. That concept is correct. There is a meaning behind offering these things. And there

is a reason for it also. We offer flowers to the Guru or to the Lord, because we want from

that Samashti, fragrance of Life. So this flower represents fragrance. We offer it to the Lord

and expect that we will get back from Samashti, by way of Prasad, fragrance in our own life.

* Dictionary: Double meaning of “offering” and “grace in tranquillity”.

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Similarly, when we offer fruit (in Hindi we call it ‘phal’ - which also means result) so we

expect that by offering fruits to the Lord we expect that all our efforts will be appropriately

rewarded.

Similarly, we offer Aksha (rice). Aksha means that which does not get finished - which is

eternal - which is perennial. Actually, when we say ‘aksha-tan samar payami’ at that time we

offer pieces of rice. We expect the Bliss of the Lord will never finish. It will continue for all

times.

Then we offer dhoopam (incense). We offer that and that represents the earth (gandh) and we

expect that everything beautiful on the earth will be given to us.

When we offer deepam (light) we say that the light of the Samashti and this (candle-light) is

one: we want to establish the similarity between the two lights.

So it has got purpose behind it.

M.J.H. In fact the next question was about those very things.

N.S.A. H.H. corrects me that I have left out ‘nai-vediyam’. ‘Naivediyam’ means ‘sweet’.

We want everything that is sweet in our lives - we do not want bitterness. Nai-vediyam

means that we are offering only sweet things to the Lord.

H.H. Acha maniyam means water. After every action, we offer water to the Lord. It is

just to wash, wash your hands.

Vastran (cloth). The cloth of the handkerchief represents ‘my ignorance’. We say that which

is a curtain between you and me - the curtain of ignorance - let that be removed. We are

offering this curtain

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which is hiding me by virtue of my ignorance - I am offering it to you so that I may be able

to see the Light and may become One with you.

Sandalwood (chan-danam). This sandal wood is used to remove bad particles of the

atmosphere. It helps in removing bad particles by the smell and it attracts good particles.

Betel leaf (tamboolam) purifies only mouth - cleans it. So the idea is that whatever we have

offered for the Lord to eat, after that it needs cleansing again. Fragrant things are considered

to be pious. The object of offering this is that we may be able to pronounce correctly the

Mantras.

Coconut (shri-phalam) represents wealth. We get back wealth in return for offering shri

phalam.

Camphor flame (ararti kyam) - the same as what was said about light (deepam). It means we

as small lights offer ourselves to the bigger light.

M.J.H. It is marvellous to know the significance. Will you thank H.H.

H.H. Even our people here don’t know the background of all this. (Laughing).

N.S.A. So it is very intelligent on your part to try to probe into all that. (More laughter!)

B.R.H. I would like to ask about holding great principles in mind. I finds the practice of

concentrating on a particular idea - a universal idea, like ‘the world is name and shape only’

- that type of idea, I find the effect of this is to empty the mind; it stirs a feeling of awe, of

wonder, of devotion. I can practise this for a short time - not long. Could H.H. say something

about this? Is this a form of Dharana? How

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could this help Meditation?

H.H. What name or shape do you use?

B.R.H. It is not a particular thing. It is more than name and shape. The idea seems to hold

an understanding of a deeper consciousness underlying everything.

H.H. When you go beyond name and shape while thinking or while meditating - when

you go beyond the name and shape of things, then alone you get Realised. So the going

beyond - thinking that there is something else than name and shape - name and shape is left

behind - something is pervading all this name and shape - that is what you mean, isn’t it?

B.R.H. Yes!

H.H. Something is behind all the name and shape - so by thinking of that you actually

eliminate name and shape; that is the way to get power.

B.R.H. What part of Antahkaran considers such ideas?

H.H. It is Buddhi - intellect, by which we know name and shape. Therefore, the deletion

of name and shape comes through Buddhi.

B.R.H. Does this practice help to purify Chitta?

H.H. Yes, this is the purification of Chitta.

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Monday 31 December 1979

On arriving at the audience chamber, Narayan Swaroop had not yet arrived. We were

ushered in, and after taking our seats and a short meditation, a young man brought in

especially by H.H. through one of the young disciples there said he would do some

translation till Narayan Swaroop returned. He was, however, not able to translate the

particular ideas. H.H. suggested we put our questions in Hindi! After apologising for not

being able to speak more Hindi (in Hindi), B.R.H. tried with no success whatever to get

across the first question. A second person - a professor from some college - appeared to

whom we put a question.

In answer to a question about Raj Yoga, H.H. was translated as saying:

H.H. Raj Yoga means happiness. Happy by your mind. Reciting the Mantra again and

again you will feel joyous.

B.R.H. Yesterday, H.H. said a little about the relationship of the various parts of man -

Buddhi, Manas, Chitta, body etc., to the Gods Brahma, Shiva, etc. We would love to hear

this. Could he say more on this relationship?

H.H. Everything is illumined, lightened by ultimate Reality. He quotes an example:

Sun’s rays and light are everywhere and sun’s light and rays are not different from the sun, but they are not sunlight. They are part of it, but are not sun.

Similarly Atman, Param-Atman, Brahman, ultimate Reality is everywhere, is giving force to

every particle, but it is beyond them. Atman is everywhere, but it cannot be seen. It can be

seen after a life of restraint if you have the capacity to control your mind - your intellect,

your body,

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then you see this light. You will realise it, you will become Brahman.

B.R.H. Could you ask him if he could say something on the Gods. These parts of man have

a universal God, Shiva, Vishnu, etc. For us just hearing these names and how they relate to

parts of man. Could he give us more on that, for example: Ahamkar = Shiva, Body = Earth,

Manas = Moon. This is very interesting for us to hear how these parts relate to the Cosmos.

H.H. Brahman is everywhere in the parts of the body. For instance, he quotes a Sutra:

Light, Fire is his forehead, Sun and moon are his eyes, every dimension (all space) is his

ears, many words are coming out from everybody, these are Vedas.

Universal Air is his Prana - vibration - whole universe is his heart (hrdaya). Hrdaya is more,

higher than heart. Heart is simply an organ and hrdaya is that which feels, etc.

That Reality is found in the universe - Purusha, that is found in body also. And man can feel

and realise through the body that ultimate Truth.

B.R.H. Is this the purpose of Man? Is this his function to realise the universal through the

body as in himself? (Considerable difficulty In getting this idea across!)

H.H. The chief aim of man’s life is to realise the Supreme Truth, and this is possible

through the body as an instrument.

B.R.H. Ordinarily we think we are separate. Each man has different

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life; a different way of expressing himself. What is the importance of each man, each person

finding his own way to express this?

H.H. Different bodies are different, but Atman is one. The Supreme Truth, that is the

supreme goal is one. That is lying in everybody. Therefore Atman is the same. Bodies may

be different, goal may be different, but Atman is the same and to realise the Atman is the

goal of everybody. Therefore, there is no difference in that. Due to Ahamkar (Ego) there is

differentiation, but as soon as it vanishes through the Sadhana, then everything is One, all

things become One.

B.R.H. In the different Sadhana, everything we do - the individual practises - whatever we

do as individuals - does all this - can this all be seen as the food for Atman? It must all be

Desire of Brahman. is everything we do towards realising for His enjoyment?

H.H. God himself becomes so many bodies and his is Bliss, Ananda, Joy Himself. And

His joy is in everybody, everybody’s Sadhana, and he is enjoying Sadhana. God himself is

enjoying. Because God has become everybody. God is ocean of Bliss and from that

everybody, every particle is in God Himself. We are feeling separate through the Ahamkar

and as soon as we try to abolish Ahamkar then we become that God.

He has given an example of a baby who is playing with his playthings, and his purpose is only play, nothing else.

Similarly God’s play is everywhere. Every Sadhana is his play and he is enjoying everything.

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Allahabad AUDIENCE 6 1st January, 1980

N.G.H. Could H.H. say more of the effect of strong Dhyana on Yama, Nyama and

Pranayama?

H.H. In one sentence, the chief effect of strong Dhyana on these various aspects is that

you don't have to do it, they get automatically done. Otherwise according to our old theory

one had to practise these various steps, Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, all these things

had to be practised, but the effect of strong Dhyana is that you don’t have to do them

individually, they get done automatically.

(H.H.’s long answer not fully translated.)

N.G.H. One of the things that new meditators have most difficulty with is distracting

thoughts and ideas that take their attention away from the Mantra. From what H.H. said

yesterday, this seems to be the rajasic aspect of Pratyahara. What is the remedy prescribed

for those with this problem?

H.H. This problem will get automatically solved by practice. If the practice is left and is

not continued, then the problem will increase. H.H. suggests a method also, and that is

whenever while doing Dhyana the manas goes out, or there is a disturbance, at that time the

Mantra should be pronounced in a louder voice, and slowly that louder voice should be

reduced and taken inside to the Antahkaran so that this will help in getting back the manas

from going outside.

N.G.H Is the louder voice spoken out loud and then taken in? (Yes)

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New meditators, after a period of enjoying the Dhyana, often enter a period where the

practice of meditation becomes very dry for them. Strong doubt arises - they doubt that they

will ever be able to meditate successfully. This doubt even enters their dealings with external

life. What is the cause of doubt? What is the best way to deal with new meditators when

doubt dries their meditation up?

H.H. These new meditators raise certain high expectations - they are made to raise high

expectations - from this meditation. But when they do not find a fulfilment of those

expectations, immediately this dryness comes. This is primarily because of their lack of

interest in meditation itself. They have hopes of something, they don't seem to be getting it,

therefore this dryness comes in and they start feeling dejected. The method to overcome this

state of affairs is to educate them - to tell them that the process of Dhyana is not only for

Self-Realisation, but will also give them efficiency in their daily life, but it has to be done for

some time. If they give it up before it has started yielding results, then it is not the fault of the

system - it is the fault of the person who is practising it.

H.H. says that by Dhyana (meditation) one develops concentration, and concentration helps

in the preservation of energy which in itself will lead ultimately to increased efficiency in

every walk of life. If there is no preservation of energy then there will be all expenditure and

no income. Then he goes on to explain that during Dhyana, there is some stillness - some

concentration - and the stillness in itself is of various types, it could be tamasic, rajasic, it

could be sattvic. It is the sattvic rest that

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is really helpful and Dhyana (meditation) is with the object to have that sattvic stillness.

Stillness or rest comes even in sleep which may be of tamasic nature. It may come even in

rajas to a certain extent, but that is not the object of Dhyana. The object of Dhyana is sattvic

stillness - sattvic rest which is bound to give - there can't be any doubt about it - increased

efficiency.

N.G.H. Those ideas will be very helpful.

Dharana is the stage when the attention on the Mantra is deep and fixed. What is the stage

where meditation and meditator become one? The difference between Dharana and Dhyana

seems to be the growth of sattva.

H.H. As long as the meditator, the meditation and the object of meditation, these three

things, retain their individuality, there is the state of Dharana, but as soon as they all become

one (Dhyata, Dhyeya, Dhyana), when the three become One - then it is Samadhi; it is no

longer Dharana.

The ultimate stage will be that all the three will become one and then Samadhi will come.

M.J.H. The ebb and flow in and out of the stage of unity - of Samadhi - is that what the

stage of Dhyana is?

N.S.A. Do you conceive of something flowing in and out during Dhyana?

M.J.H. I suppose it is a sense of being absorbed and then coming out again - of something

bringing one out.

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N.S.A. But does it happen that way?

M.J.H. One doesn't know really what happens in Samadhi.

H.H. After Samadhi there will be no return back to Dhyana. So there will be no ebb and

flow - one will be awake after Samadhi, it will not be Dhyana, it will be coming back to

consciousness. In Dhyana the period of stillness is smaller. In Samadhi it is longer and after

Samadhi from Dhyana one goes on to Samadhi, but there is no returning back to Dhyana.

From Samadhi one wakes and comes back to the consciousness, and after that he may again

start with Dhyana and go into Samadhi.

N.G.H. When the young man was translating yesterday, he said that Raja Yoga means

happiness. Does this mean that the concentration of attention on the Mantra takes a man deep

into his Chitta? Is Chitta the substance of the Self in its immobile state?

N.S.A. H.H. has given a beautiful description, but I am not sure whether your question is

answered. I will tell you what H.H. has said and will leave it to you to tell me whether that

satisfies you.

H.H. He gives an illustration of a machine:

Now a machine runs - then there are a number of pulleys and there is a belt. This belt is put on the various pulleys. Whichever pulley it is put on, the machine at the other end starts functioning.

Now chetan or chitta is the machine that’s functioning, irrespective of the various organs (jada prakriti) - it’s continuing functioning - and this manas is the pulley to whichever particular machine it is connected - eyes, ears or the various five tattvas (elements) which are all lifeless in themselves. But this chetan, life, wherever it is connected through manas, starts functioning. Now you have to give rest to the various (jada) things which do not function unless they are connected through manas with the chetan.

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Each individual machine is given rest by removing that belt. But when the belt is removed from all the pulleys - even then the machine continues to function, the Chetan functions even when not connected to various outside things. But this also needs rest and every eight or ten hours - the Chetanshakti also needs rest, so that you have to stop the machine by putting the switch off to give it rest.

Similarly in using this simile, this Chitta - concentration of attention on the Mantra takes a

man deep into his Chitta.

N.G.H. Is Chitta the substance of the Self in its immobile state?

H.H. Chitta is that immobile state. That is the machine which is resting when the switch

is off, and that starts functioning when the switch is put on, and the belt is put on the pulley,

and which connects the immobile Nature (Prakriti) to the mobile Nature (Prakriti).

N.S.A. Now tell me whether that meets your point?

B.R.H. I would just like to ask what turns the switch on?

H.H. There are three things - Sat, Chit, Ananda, and Chit is responsible for Ananda. The

world can be divided into two things, there is Jada and Chetan (immobile and mobile),

immobile is Jada and mobile is Chetan. So Sat which is the Existence, that is the primary

thing, that is of a perennial nature, that is always existing. That starts Chetan and Chetan

starts Ananda. Chetan experiences Ananda. Sat is responsible for the switching on. This is

made by the Sat which is ever existing, that Jada, this stillness that needs the power of

Chetan to make it move. Without Chitta operating Jada, the still Prakriti will not move. So

that Chetan starts the still Prakriti and Chetan itself is started by Sat.

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N.G.H. After talking to Sri Narayan Swaroop, he has helped me to understand how

differently East and West understand the relationship between Guru and Disciple.

The first thing that stands out is that the physical relationship is just the starting

point. It would seem that as the relationship deepens the disciple begins to feel the presence

of the Guru in everything - he feels Him everywhere. Does this mean that the Guru emits

fine subtle vibrations that cause those who are in tune with him to pick them up, because it

seems that these fine vibrations would cause the disciple to turn to the good in everything?

Distance would make no difference.

H.H. Your question has three aspects. The answer to the first aspect is in the affirmative.

That is that the Guru emits fine subtle vibrations and it is up to the disciple to pick up as

much as he can. It depends on his capability.

For this H.H. gives the illustration of a river:

The river is constantly flowing, and the person goes with a bucket to fill it with water and carry it back to his home. He will take as much water as his bucket can carry. If it is a big bucket, it will carry more water; if it is a small bucket, it will carry less water, but this makes no difference to the flow of water in the river. So the Guru is emitting his blessings on the disciple continuously. It is for the disciple to take as much advantage out of it as he can. That is the answer to the first part.

With the help of this flow or emanation of the Blessings of the Guru, certainly the disciple is

being helped, and the distance makes no difference whatsoever.

After this reply, H.H. is reminded of an incident about a Bengali Swami who was in Varanasi. He was a Realised Soul. He had some of his disciples in Calcutta who were carrying on some business in ships. Now at one time this Guru who was sitting at Varanasi was meditating, and it was summer season, and one of his disciples was

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by his side fanning him in order to give him relief from the heat. Now this disciple was also a very devoted one to his Guru. All of a sudden, the disciple noticed that the Guru shook his body, he shook it two or three times, then the disciple tried himself to see in his own meditation what is the reason for it. And he found he entered into the Antahkaran of the Guru and found that in the Antahkaran of the Guru while he was meditating - not on any incident - he was meditating in the normal course - there was a sea, and in that sea there was a ship which had got engulfed in a whirlpool. And when he shook first, two or three times, then that ship came safe to shore.

The disciple having seen this understood the reason for the shaking in the body of the Guru. After a few minutes, the Guru again shook his body - then the disciple said to his Guru ‘Guruji, the ship is out of danger, why are you shaking now?’ When he said so then Guru rose from his meditation, opening his eyes when he heard the voice, and he said, ‘What do you know about it? What do you know about the ship?’ ‘When you first shook your body, then I tried to go into your Antahkaran and I saw that the ship was caught in the whirlpool, and later on I saw that it had come to the shore’. And he said, ‘Yes, it had come to the shore all right, but it had not got over the entire difficulty - there was a difficulty even at the shore, but now it is out of danger.’

From this he illustrates that there is a stage where disciple and Guru become One, but they

become One only through the blessings of the Guru Himself; there is nothing remaining -

one can know each other’s problems and this is because of the continuous flow of that power

from one to the other.

N.G.H. The Guru is said to be the manifestation of Atman; does this mean that the

fulfilment of disciple is to merge or meet in the Atman?

H.H. The identity is already there. It is the realisation of that identity, the Oneness, that

comes.

N. RABENECK In meditation the state of stillness feels like lightness and more rarely

as Light. It also feels like pervasiveness that penetrates so that a flow of happiness and

well-being is felt all over. Is this because the organs of perception acting on different levels

register the presence

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of that state, each in its particular way? If that is connected with the five subtle elements,

could H.H. be so kind as to add some explanation of their nature and say what feeling each

arouses in the Observer?

(Note: N.S.A. found considerable difficulty in translating this question. He found it difficult

to understand. Eventually we sorted it out.)

H.H. He has said it many times before also that in meditation there is a stillness, but there

are no experiences. If there will be experiences, then there will be no stillness. After Dhyana,

when you come back to consciousness, then you feel happy - a feeling of enjoyment is there

- that is after Dhyana. If that feeling of happiness comes in Dhyana itself, that would mean

that there was no Dhyana, that Dhyana is disrupted. That feeling of happiness will come only

after you have finished your Dhyana.

Just as when you dive deep into the sea and get something from the bed of the sea, you will not be able to tell what you have got till you come out of the sea and see what you have got.

Similarly, when you are doing Dhyana, you will not be able to say what light is there, what

experiences are there. It is only when you come back to consciousness that you will be able

to say what happiness you felt, or what light you experienced.

GILLIAN HARRIS We have three young children all under six years old. When the three

year old son has woken up at night crying, on occasions I have without going to him, brought

the Mantra to mind and his name, David, just the name, not a mental picture. There has been

a unifying feeling and a stilling, peaceful effect on the child. Can one impart the

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qualities of the Mantra to another by bringing it to mind together with the person’s name?

H.H. (To M.J.H.: H.H. wants to know whether these children are hers or yours!)

M.J.H. Ours!

H.H. H.H. corrects me that it is not necessary that the mental picture should be there

(N.S.A. had asked M.J.H. how the name could be brought to mind without a mental image).

At the moment it is the effect of the name that goes and catches that particular person. So

when Mantra is taken with that name, then Mantra goes and hits that person. H.H. illustrates:

If there is a crowd of ten thousand persons and one of those persons sitting in that crowd is by the name of Ram Das, then without seeing that person in the crowd he calls from the stage Ram Das, that voice will reach him and he will say ‘I am Ram Das’.

So the Mantra has that power when associated with a name to go and hit the person of that

name and quieten him.

G.H. The three year old son is very active and talkative - non-stop. He demands a lot of

attention. By nature I also am an active person. We both seem to activate each other; I do not

enjoy the conflict it brings, and I would like to know what I can do to avoid being caught up

in this action/reaction?

H.H. This is a very sweet conflict and time alone will solve it.

N.S.A. A very sweet answer.

H.H. According to our Philosophy and Shastras, we are told to give all

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our affection and love to our children to the age of five. At that time the Antahkaran of the

child is very tender and needs our affection in love. From five to fifteen, our scriptures say

we should train and give him discipline. During this period you can even admonish him.

After fifteen, from sixteen onwards, we have to treat our children as our friends. After

fifteen, we can give them advice, but we can’t admonish them. That is the ruling given by

our Shastras. So that H.H. says that for your child, who is only three, for two years yet the

child has to get mother’s affection.

N.G.H. In the Shankaracharya Tradition, is there a technique of Self Realisation through

Love? I am thinking of stages of development, starting with attraction to the Beauty of the

outward forms of things, then the Beauty of Cosmic Law to the Absolute Beauty? Is there

such a system?

H.H. Lord Shankara has accepted both the methods – Self Realisation through love as

well as through knowledge. But this love has to be different from attachment, which is

Moha. We have to distinguish between attachment and love. Love is unlimited while this

attachment is limited. And the love for the Nature, for the cosmic law which is a reflection of

the Lord, the Creator, is a pure thing and that leads one to enjoy the Absolute. So there is a

mention in the Lord Shankara Philosophy.

N.G.H. One or two of the painters who lived in Ancient China and India have left behind a

record of how they went about their art. Before a painter of nature commenced to paint, he

sat in front of a tree (that he was going to paint) for days, months, years - it didn't matter -

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until he was the tree; not that he became the tree, not that he identified himself with the tree,

but he was the tree.

This meant there was no space between the observer and the observed, there was no

experience as the observer experiencing the beauty, the movement, the shadow, the depth of

a leaf, the quality of colour. He was totally the tree and only in that state could he paint.

Would H.H. comment on this?

H.H. When you want to paint anything, you have to take it inside you. If you take it

inside you, you will become that thing and then you will be able to express it.

Just as with this illustration of the camera, if you want to take a photograph, you have first to take a photo on a film and that will be the negative. And that negative will be upside down. Just in the other way. And when you take it on the positive again it will come right again.

N.S.A. I wonder how he knows it!

H.H. So just as the photo on the negative will be upside down, so you’ll have to take it

inside. The painter will have to see his object and take the object inside himself, and then

alone will he be able to express it. As simple as if you want to teach anybody anything, first

learn it yourself.

N.G.H. What interests me is that when there is this strong concentration on what one is

doing, the disappearance of the space between what one ordinarily thinks as oneself and the

object – I am interested in this concept.

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H.H. If you do something without removing that distance between observer and what is

observed then it will just be an ordinary painting. But when you do it after removing that

depth, or distance, between the observer and the observed, when that distance is eliminated

altogether, then it will be perfection of your art.

N.G.H. Could I ask something that is rather important to us: you remember we have a place

outside Wellington where we go and for a week in very good conditions we can practise

meditation. We usually practise twice a day for half an hour, but we have the rest of the day

with these people who have this love for meditation, we read the words of H.H. and we meet

together. I was wondering if H.H. could suggest what it is that we could do during the rest of

the day, that would help to increase the depth of meditation. What is it that is good for those

people who gather together for that sole purpose. You must have something similar here -

what do they do for the rest of the day?

H.H. H.H. suggests discussions - mutual discussions apart from listening to the tapes and

the meditation, they can usefully discuss what they have been doing, what their experiences

are and what they have heard, what they have understood, what the meaning is of what they

have understood from H.H.’s words. Mutual discussions. Questions and answers amongst

themselves.

When you go to a place like this spot that you mentioned, then you feel as if a load has been

taken off. That is because of your zeal, your keenness. When you are feeling lighter, then

you feel happiness, with

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that happiness when you listen to something, you are able to absorb it better. And with that

absorption, it gives you power to discuss and understand things in a better way.

H.H. is reminded of an instance:

Once upon a time Dr. Rajendra Prasad, President of India was over-worked. He had gone to a small place in India and there he was working from morning to about 4 o’clock in the evening. And he was exhausted. At that time, he called his aide-de-camps, ‘I want to go to the jungle’. They were all afraid, he was the President of India, and if anything should happen, if any accident happened what face would we show to the world? One of the aide-de-camps picked up courage and said ‘Right, I will go’. He took the President in a car outside the city three miles in the forest, and he left the car there alone, and sat underneath a tree, exactly for half an hour. He got refreshed and then he was ready to work again.

It does help to go outside. There one doesn’t get anything physical, but the load which one

carries otherwise on one’s head is taken off and one is able to do his work much better

afterwards.

N.G.H. Is there any advantage in practising the meditation longer than one half hour when

we are away in that situation?

H.H. It has to be regulated according to your convenience. You shouldn’t overdo it to the

point of exhaustion. As much as what you can do with comfort.

N.G.H. I would like to put a question from John Bowater, our Treasurer!

J.B. My meditations often do not seem to have excitement in them. I find that my

fascination for the Mantra can wane, causing me either to become sleepy or to wander off in

dreams. Alternatively, I am wide awake and am very watchful; watching for results and

noting changes occurring. Both these situations seem to block my opportunities to go

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deep. Could H.H. please give me guidance?

H.H. Gives advice to your Treasurer. He says that it appears because of his old

associations, samskars, there is a predominance of rajas and tamas. When there is a

predominance of tamas, then he goes to sleep and dreams; when he is awake and watchful,

then he is in rajas. In both occasions, he is not able to enjoy the fruits of Dhyana. So H.H.’s

advice is that in such conditions, he should recite the Mantra loudly and with great love. If he

recites loudly and with love for the Mantra, sattva will arise which will drive away the rajas

and tamas.

N.G.H. Does he speak it out loud or within?

N.S.A. No. he speaks it out loud, and slowly and slowly takes it in.

M.J.H. About these visits, Narayan, we notice how Mr. Howitt and Dr. Roles gain such

refreshment from Satsang with H.H. when they return home to us. Dr. Roles and Mr. Howitt

of course - everyone takes their energy - they have no-one else from whom to draw in

Satsang than H.H. here. It is our wish, if it is possible, that the contact with Shankaracharya

might continue.

(Note: Michael said afterwards that he was here trying to get a clue to the future relationship

with H.H.)

H.H. It is his Blessings that whatever you have heard you will be able to digest deep in

yourself; and make it a part of your life and thereby uplift your life. Jnana (Knowledge) does

not teach the conservativeness - the entire world, the Atman of the entire world is One.

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Wheresoever he may be he has the right to practise and learn.

N.G.H. Thank H.H. so much for the time he has given to us.

-000-

AUDIENCES with the SHANKARACHARYA in ALLAHABAD

20th – 25th January 1980

Mr. Bill Whiting

Translator: Sri Jaiswal

lst Audience 20th January 101

2nd Audience 21st January 112

3rd Audience 23rd January 121

4th Audience 24th January 130

5th Audience 25th January 139

101

First Audience with Mr. Whiting, of School of Meditation.

20th January 1980

W. There may have been 4000 people who have been given the meditation through the

School, and at this moment in time about 500 people are in regular contact with the School.

200 of them come regularly in groups to hear His Holiness’s words and derive great

inspiration from words which I took back with me at the last audience. First I would like to

ask if I could put some questions on initiating people into meditation.

Recently, after Lord Allan’s death in 1979, the School of Meditation has been asked

to initiate the members of the School of Economic Science who wish to meditate. Also it is

necessary to train some people as initiators in the School of Meditation and the School of

Economic Science organisations. There are nine people trained as initiators and over one

thousand people are initiated each year. It would be valuable to have His Holiness’s

confirmations on some of the points regarding initiations.

First, could we ask how should one train another in the function of initiation. What

should they be told?

H.H. One first needs to describe the procedure adopted so that certain points can be

considered. The points in question are these: first of all one has to look at the state of the

individual to be trained to become initiator; how much he has been trained into the science of

meditation and the philosophy behind

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it. How much progress they have experienced by going deeper during meditation. Has it now

become natural for them to meditate easily, and lastly their state of consciousness in putting

the science and philosophy of meditation into practice. From these four points it would be

possible to see that the individuals in question are ready to initiate others. If these conditions

are not properly met then those who receive initiation from them will not be really and fully

benefited.

W. What is the opening remark he wanted to hear from us? (J. "the training of the

initiators and the procedure of the initiation”)

Up to now the initiators that have been trained have been from the School of

Economic Science. Those people selected in the School of Economic Science have been

selected by Mr. MacLaren. They come to the School of Meditation and they observe the

initiation ceremony from the back of the room. This is done through several sessions. After

that they are handed a copy of the ceremony and only after some time are they asked to

initiate.

H.H. It is necessary to understand the principle that only a teacher can impart the

knowledge, because a student, unlike a teacher, hasn’t made it his own. So far he is in the

process of learning. Thus it is important that the selection of those who are going to initiate

others should be thorough. As long as they do not seem to become natural with the

meditation

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and its science you will find ultimately that their initiations do not enter enough into the new

initiate for his further development. The resulting quality will not be as good as one expects.

The initiator must have been meditating properly for some time and must have deeper

experience of meditating. They should have learnt the proceedings involved in the initiation

ceremony in all its aspects, should be able to give the mantra in true form, lead the

meditation process properly inward and, above all, meditation practice should be natural to

him. Only then should such a person be allowed to initiate. Only superficial knowledge and

partial know-how is detrimental.

W. Could we ask about the selection of the servers for the initiation ceremony; could

we ask first the function of the service?

H.H. A server is there to conduct the newcomer to the initiation ceremony. The server

effects in two ways: he almost presents the face of the meditation to the newcomer. Thus his

appearance is very important. Mere appearance of this person should bestow a sense of

confidence in the newcomer that the whole set-up has some qualities to offer. All this means

that those who serve ought to have achieved something in their being through the meditation,

which ought to reflect right from their physical body and manners. The number of initiators

must remain very limited, as few as possible. If the number multiplies, the importance and its

greatness will be lost by becoming commonplace. One does need

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many more helpers in the service of the initiator and the ceremony of initiation and the

administration of checks. etc.

The second quality desirable in servers is the ability to inspire the newcomer into

the proceeding of the ceremony.

W. His Holiness said that the number of initiators should be kept few. I just like to

make sure it is appreciated that in the School of Meditation there is only one initiator and he

is now sitting before His Holiness. But in addition to that there is also some help from a

member of the School of Economic Science. It raises the question whether it would be more

appropriate for someone who has been trained in the School of Meditation for 15 years to

operate in that capacity. There are 9 in the School of Economic Science who operate in the

Mediterranean, in America and down in the Southern hemisphere.

H.H. One initiator at one place in good enough. Having a second will reduce the

importance of the ceremony. Because the whole set-up is most important for the

development of one’s being it is necessary to keep only one person as the guiding source. He

must maintain the supreme authority and supreme dignity. If many such authorities are

created the system is bound to become diluted.

W. Could we now talk about bringing people to initiation. Would His Holiness

comment on how people should be prepared before the initiation.

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H.H. First of all he should be provided with enough information as to what meditation

stands for, and how deep the act of meditation will be able to lead the individual to his

ultimate goal of life in realisation of his own Self. Then it should also be impressed upon him

that the ceremony and initiation is about to give him a new birth, and that he is going to start

a new and fresh life, which he will be able to experience himself.

Secondly, this proceeding and its practice will provide him with extra energies from within.

Each and every one has to face the world in two ways - in relation to Vyavahara, the

everyday affairs of worldly life, and Paramartha, the ultimate realisation of the Self. He

would be able to conduct his affairs in a much more efficient manner, to pave the way for his

further progress and prosperity. This is the physical, material and mundane level.

In relation to Paramartha, he will either be able to realise the Self or increase the level of his

consciousness as a precondition to self-realisation. This is the preparation which should be

provided so that he finds it interesting and reasonable to go whole-hearted for meditation.

Another important factor in all this is that the initiator must maintain a distance between

himself and the initiated. This seclusion creates a sense of greatness and grandeur about his

person (Mahatmabuddhi). Since he has acquired a higher level of consciousness, possesses

true knowledge and has put all this into practical use, he has to remain by himself and can’t

afford to mix with the common level in general but provides his

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grace through initiation and occasional guidance. If this atmosphere and environment is not

achieved then the system tends to become cheap, and cheap things don’t produce good

results.

W. He answers a question before I ask it. I was about to ask for confirmation, because I

make a point of never appearing at a public meeting, and I never see anyone coming for

initiation until they walk over the doorstep during the initiation ceremony.

H.H. This is right and should apply everywhere.

W. The people I am more likely to know are the people who help at the time of the

initiation. From their point of view, this is the most important thing in the whole of their life.

How should we treat people in the quiet room immediately before initiation? We give them a

brief written direction telling them that the ceremony to come will be in Sanskrit, and we

suggest to them that they should approach the ceremony with an open mind, holding in their

heart what it is they truly want above all. And we also suggest that it is as beautiful to listen

to the Sanskrit sound as listening to music. Is this right what we do? Some find the ceremony

strange, some are nervous. Some direction seems necessary.

H.H. The concept of a quiet room is to avoid all types of attractions, visual, audible or

otherwise. There should be no coming or going, least communication, so that the individual

does not find anything to attend to and thus can collect himself.

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Being alone will give him more strength. The process described is agreeable. Each individual

should be initiated separately and no communal initiation be performed.

W. There is one exception to this rule - that husband and wife are given the choice to be

initiated together.

H.H. That is good. Husband and wife are one single unit and they should always be

considered as one in initiation an well. They should be kept together in initiation.

W. They are only given the option to be together.

H.H. The tradition demands that they should always be together once they are married. In

Indian tradition all functions and ceremonies by householders are performed together and

exceptions are rare. Here they are prepared in such a way that even if they wanted it

separately they are encouraged to do it together, for they all have to understand the

importance of unity of husband wife. They have to lead the life together in every way.

The same applies to the work of spiritual realm. The nature of womankind is such that she

inclines to the Vama Marga (left to centre way) and this manifests in great curiosity and

anguish if anything is concealed from them. This feminine nature works better in

conjunction.

It may not matter with the husband but the wife’s mind will not be at ease and could create

difficulties in the household. She should, therefore, be given equal honour so that she

remains responsible and co-operates with her full heart.

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W. May we speak of the actual giving of the mantra. When kneeling and giving the

mantra, at what speed should it be given? We were told to begin slowly and then speed it up

pronouncing it with the initiate. Is that correct?

H.H. The initiator should proceed with the pronunciation of the mantra and ask the new

initiate to reproduce the mantra exactly and then together with the initiator. The

pronunciation must be clear and precise so that the new initiate understands the composition

of the phonemes; the initiator must make sure that it is so. The mantra should be started with

a slow beat and then provide some force to the mantra to speed up. When the mantra is at

raised speed withdraw all forces and let it go naturally, and it will slow down gradually in the

Antahkaran and come to complete stillness in due course.

W. After the mantra has been given and the initiator and the initiate sit on chairs and

mantra is again said out loud, how rapidly should this be said out loud before it is taken in?

H.H. The question of speed is related to the act of meditation in general. At the time of

initiation and introduction of mantra to the new initiate it is essential to see that he gets the

mantra with the proper pronunciation. Then the repetition and meditation proper should be

given. Loud repetitive pronunciation should be followed by mental repetition of mantra.

Thus, checking it loud is good to make sure of the pronunciation; the process with which the

mental meditation takes place will be experienced later on.

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The person who initiates must check after a week again, clear and loud from the meditator so

that it is known if any deviation has taken place or not. This should be done by the same

person who gave the mantra and should not be done by anyone else.

W. We can now take up the problem of those who come to the School of Meditation

and to the School of Economic Science and who have had initiation from the Spiritual

Regeneration Movement. We follow His Holiness’s instructions and do not interfere with

their mantra. However, some of these people ask if their mantra is correct and we have no

way of guiding them.

H.H. It is not known what mantras are being given by the Spiritual Regeneration

Movement, but as far as tradition in India is concerned, the Indian background is different.

Here the tradition in India has been in practice for a long time and people have acquired the

tradition through generations. They also know the different types of worship and the

associated gods with those worships. Some are inclined to worship the Nirguna Brahman*

and others take to Saguna Brahman*. Within this group some prefer Rama while others go

for Krishna, Shiva, Durga, Ganesha, and so on. This makes it possible to give the mantra

which may be suitable to that family background. That is why different mantras are known to

be in use in India; some have two syllables and others may have 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and so on. But

where there

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*Nirguna Brahman - God without form or attributes.

*Saguna Brahman - God with various forms and attributes such as mercy, omnipotence, omniscience etc.

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is no such tradition in practice only the general mantra in prescribed. This mantra Ram in

considered most suitable because there is no such variation an in India. So it is better to keep

the single mantra system.

W. His Holiness has told us before that if people come to the school having previously

been initiated, we should leave them with the mantra they had been given. Sometimes these

people ask if their pronunciation is correct. What therefore should we do with these people?

Do we in any way check with their Mantra? We have some examples here with us about

which doubts prevail.

H.H. Doubt about the mantra in not a healthy situation for anyone for it may lead to some

harm. So such people must be helped only if they are ready to disclose themselves.

The ultimate end for all different mantras is the same. For the purpose served by a

mantra in to limit the attractions of the Chitta and concentration of the being towards the

deity or the Self or the centre. As he practises he moves towards this centre of unity, the Self

or the universal Self.

The prescription of different mantras is not intended to create different effects in the

individuals. The mantras differ only because the individuals are different. Everyone may not

go on the same path due to the associations and samskars. This inclines them to certain types

of deity, which represent these different inclinations in human nature. If a suitable mantra is

provided then naturally he will devote his energies without distractions or agitations.

Whatever the situation, let no-one

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be in doubt about the mantra, and help be provided. If they prefer not to disclose and ask for

new initiation, there should be no hesitation to do so. The correction of mantra is a very

important act and it can be performed only by a person who knows these matters properly.

Without this background knowledge such corrections cannot be done.

W. What do we do?

H.H. This can be done by one who understands these things properly. Whenever such

situation arises, Mr. Jaiswal’s services can be used, for he can check them and also guide in

proper pronunciation of the right mantras. But this should not be done in writing or

correspondence, which will not be useful. So it must be done personally and vocally. Written

words do not usually get pronounced correctly even if they are written correctly.

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Second Audience with Mr. Whiting. 2lst January 1980.

W. Could we speak about entry into the world of stillness. His Holiness has given us

clear direction about entry into the big house and into the world of stillness. At the last

audience he was asked for help on entry into the big house, and he told us of the essence,

Svabhava*. We have spent the last two years discovering essence in practice and attempting

to develop Svabhava. People have found great inspiration in his answers. Would he say more

about Svabhava and entry into the still world.

H.H. What is termed as Svabhava is the nature or what is habitual to the individual,

through which he behaves in his own way*. The substance behind this nature is the Samskar,

the essence of the individual. Thus Svabhava is the product of the Samskar and the available

environment in the world. The essence is the product of Sanga, the company one keeps.

Satsanga, is for the development or purification of the Samskar and thus also of the

Svabhava *.

*Dict. SVABHAVA. One’s own nature or innate potentiality. Here “Svabhava” is the product of the Samskar. (Dict. SAMSKAR: Impression, prenatal tendency?) and the worldly environment and “the essence is the product of Sanga, the company one keeps”.

* In our System the latter would be “personality” so shall we keep Samskars

for inborn essence and Svabhava for its interaction with environment, i.e. personality.

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There are three types of Satsang; the company of the Absolute or the Self which is ever

present but experienced by remembering, by the word of the Absolute. There is the company

of the scriptures or true knowledge. The third type of good company is the company of wise

men.

In these good companies purification of the Samskar takes place and its structures are

transformed. In ancient times, there was a man called Valmiki. Though he was the son of a

sage, yet he fell into the company of a band of robbers at a very early age. Consequently he

learnt to be violent, ruthless, merciless and a robber. This habit of robbing went on for a

pretty long time. Once the seven sages were passing through that forest and fell prey to the

gang of robbers led by Valmiki. A sage asked him if his sin will be shared by those for

whom he commits robbery and violence? Valmiki said he didn’t know. The sage asked him

to go and make sure, to which Valmiki said that meanwhile you all will run away. Although

the sages promised to stay put, he forcibly took away their belongings and tied them to the

trees. He then asked his father, mother, wife and children if they will share the sin as they

share the wealth from the loot. All the family members said that they were entirely

dependent upon him but have never asked him to earn living by violence and robbery. So it

is your responsibility and we can’t be held responsible for your sin. Valmiki got the message

and came back to the sages and apologised for his misdeeds and requested them to show the

path out of sin. The sages initiated him into meditation and gave him mantra Ram. Being

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illiterate his pronunciation didn’t work, and since he was used to killing he was asked to start

and finish with M sound. Thus he learned to pronounce the mantra and started meditation.

His Samskar was such that went into Samadhi and did not rise for long. During this time

wind, storm and rain had created a mound of him and he was reduced to a mere skeleton.

When the sages revisited the forest they found him like a mound exactly where they had left

him. They cleaned him with water and when he rose from Samadhi, the sage assured him of

having been cleaned from all his sins and asked him to lead a normal life. He took to poetry

and created the Shloka metre and is hailed as the first poet whose poetry is a living example

of human emotions, and composed Sanskrit Ramayana.

This shows that Svabhava of an individual arises from Samskar and can also be affected by

environment. Samskar can also change, but very slowly and can be transformed through the

threefold good company. When one enters the big house one is free from outside

environmental influences. One acquires the pure energy which transforms the being and

helps in all actions in one’s life.

W. I am not sure we got the question right. Two years ago in relation to entry into the

big house I asked His Holiness for help. He gave a long answer on the help we need to enter

the big house, in which he told us of the essence which related to the pure fragrance in earth,

the taste in water, colour in fire, touch in air and sound in Akasha, and he went on to give

Sankalpa and Vikalpa in Manas, discrimination in Buddhi and Smriti in,

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Chitta and here he said that the help was needed in the big house. He had very firmly told

that we should go into the big house and live there. So we asked for the help to go in there. In

relation to this he gave us this hope and directed our attention to the Smriti which gives us

feeling and memory of this thread or essence which went through all the universal elements.

He said the elements are moving but the essence is still. It was in relation to that, entry into

the big house, that a question was asked.

H.H. There are two movements in the manifestation of the universe which are creation

and its withdrawal. In the Vedic tradition the name has been described as Aham manifesting

as Idam: Ekoham bahusyami – ‘I am alone and desire to be many’. The process is the

following: first the existence manifests as Avyakta which transforms into Prakriti. This

manifests in two different ways: one composed of the five elements of earth, water, fire, air

and space, Manas, Buddhi and Ahamkar. The other is the consciousness.

The Prakriti manifests progressively into inanimate material and yet is pervaded by the subtle

forces which activate them at all levels of existence. This is how all things participate in

creation’s activity. Prithivi is naturally fragrant. Even if the earth is manipulated through

other elements to remove its natural fragrance, the fragrance will be back if it is left alone for

some time. The physical human body is made with earth element and similarly water

provides the tastes, fire provides the heat and colour, air transforms into Pranas and the ether

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provides space and sound. From Samashti Manas comes the individual Manas, and Samashti

Buddhi provides Vyashti Buddhi, and the Samashti Ahamkar provides Vyashti Ahamkara.

Thus the subtle becomes the coarse or physical. Both the subtle and the physical manage the

progression of the universe.

When one has to find the big house of stillness one has to take the help of one’s Svabhava.

In fact the real nature of all individuals is stillness, for Atman is always at stillness.

Whenever this stillness is broken there is a cause behind it. When a desire arises, and if the

Buddhi approves it and the senses have to go into action, then this stillness is disturbed.

When the work is complete, or one is tired or the time of work is over, then again one

inclines for the rest or stillness. Thus it is still at the beginning and also at the end, but the

middle is under agitation. One proceeds to agitation only from stillness and converges to

stillness from agitation.

For example, water is naturally cold. It can be heated so much that it starts boiling. This can

be done with help from fire. If one removes this boiling water from the fire, after some time

the water will come back to its natural state of coldness. One need not do anything to help it

cool down for it will naturally happen by itself. It will revert to its nature without any help or

activity. The boiling water during this state does not and cannot give up its nature of

coolness. Even the fire which heats it would be extinguished if the boiling water was thrown

over it. The reason for this is because of the cool nature of water and not by artificial

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state of boiling. The Svabhava does keep on changing due to influence of other factors but it

does not die down. So when one engages himself into action and agitation for some time, a

time comes when the Svabhava demands a return to rest or stillness. After a day’s work of

waking, working, eating and running around, everyone naturally wants to return to rest or

stillness. This rest is also twofold. One can go to bed and sleep and be fresh next day through

Tamasic rest, but this does not give the Sattvic rest. If one does manage, one gets very little

Sattvic rest through sleep.

If one can find the way to go into Sattvic rest and stillness then one will not be tired from

activities during the day. The system of meditation is prescribed to help with Sattvic

stillness. Through meditation one reaches to Sattvic stillness, and when one arises from this

one comes with extra vigour and energy for efficiency and ease at work. Common men of the

world find rest in Tamas, and those who have learned the art of Sattvic rest, and when this

becomes natural, then such men are called great men. Their actions have uncommon

speciality.

W. The direction is that we have to live there. People can find the stillness, but the

question is, how can one live there?

H.R. In this pattern of creation which we live in, it is not necessary nor possible to stay at

one place for all time. This creation is triformal for it is governed by the Law of Three. This

Law of Three is at the causal level so they proliferate at

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every level of creation. They have complete reign and pervade all things and all events.

There isn’t an action and there isn’t a being which can escape the Law of Three. The Sattva,

Rajas and Tamas follow each other and yet remain ever together. This is the Svabhava of our

creation and all have to conform to it.

There is one factor forgotten; men believe that they either need to be active in Rajas or be at

rest in Tamas. It has been forgotten that there is a superior realm of stillness which is most

full of potential. This one gets through the meditation. It is not necessary to stay in

meditation for too long to enjoy the stillness, for nature will not allow anyone to do so.

Nature is such that Rajas will take over Sattva and Tamas will take over Rajas. Tamas can

certainly take away the fatigue but can’t provide the enlightening Sattva.

This is where meditation and wisdom comes to help. When one wants to go to the big house

through meditation one is only seeking the Sattva of the big house to enlighten all facets of

his life at all places and for all time. One needs to visit twice a day, and if one has reached

the big house one will be blessed with light for the day, and transform the life.

If one wants to satisfy one’s hunger for all time by eating too much at one time,

nature will force you, after some time, to come back to the table again to honour the call of

hunger as a consequence of the Svabhava of the physical body. This applies to all actions.

No-one can work for too long, no-one can rest for too long. In each case nature will take

over. The Law

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of Three, or the cycle of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, cannot be ignored, but with stillness it can

be brought to a good balance without disturbing the still nature of the Atman. The physical

body is composed of Tamas aspect of nature, the organs of knowledge and actions are

composed of Rajasic aspect of nature, while the Antahkaran of Manas, Buddhi and Ahamkar

is made from the Sattvic part of nature.

Thus, our whole being is a mixture of these gunas, which can rest in Tamas, act in Rajas and

meditate be still, and enlighten in Sattva. The machine is primarily finely balanced but not

properly used without meditation and Sattva.

W. His Holiness has given many words in relation to the function of ladies in the society.

Could he speak about the function of the man, the male in the society.

H.H. Fundamentally the constitution of body of male and female are the same. They are

made from the same five elements, from the same universal mind, Buddhi, Chitta and

Ahamkar. The Atman within is also the same. And yet they are the embodiment of Purusha

and Prakriti. Their form and functions differ.

The male body is hard while the female is gentle and tender. Both are bound by love to

support each other. The gentle nature is suited to serve and care. She can receive what man

produces, and use them for good use of everyone with care and love. Rearing children in

happy atmosphere within the home is best suited to them. The male being hard is suited for

all hard jobs outside the protected home. He goes out

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and faces the world and earns the living for the house and organises the society for a just

order for himself and his fellow men.

There was once a debate about the prohibition of women from Vedic study. Some said the

woman physically is unclean, and goes through untouchable menstruation period each

month. Child conception and generation involves long periods of seclusion and unclean

living, and most of the time her preoccupation in the house does not leave much time and

energy for such Vedic works. Some said she is devotional and need not engage in Vedic

study. But in fact her gentle and tender body has very tender larynx which is unsuitable for

producing Udatta, Anudatta and Svarita sounds which only males can do. This is the reason

for prohibiting them in recitation of the Vedas.

Service is their main feature. Hospitals work better only because they have female

nurses to look after the sick with love and care. If male nurses have to do the same they can’t

match up with what females can do. Even the cruel and violent criminals in very severe

conditions get the same love and care from them, which men could hardly manage.

There is, of course, one aspect of human relationship which does interfere. A

husband doctor can rarely operate on his loving wife. His hands will refuse to do the needful

work and he will have to ask another doctor to take over. The loving wife may also fail to

look after the severe condition of the husband because the love between them would

interfere. The nurse would do anything. Thus man’s work is hard and outside the home and

woman’s work is gentle and inside the home.

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Third Audience with Mr. Whiting. 23rd January 1980.

W. Your Holiness, many years ago when School of Meditation was established, you

sent a message and said, “Time is not yet, when it comes it will be quick, for now take your

rest and train the people who would take responsibility.” Would you say more?

H.H. In the process of this creation time has its own claim. In time things are generated,

grow and mature. When mature, actions are fast. Obstacles arise from two sources; outward

and inward. Outward obstacles are not so difficult as the inward. The inward obstacles arise

from the abundance of Rajas and Tamas in one’s own being and all preparations, disciplines,

and trainings are aimed at elimination or suppression of Rajas and Tamas.

The transformation of the Gunas into each other is a matter of natural order. When the time

has arrived the work is done easily, otherwise even with great effort it hardly gets done. In

early state of discipline when Rajas and Tamas get eliminated, all worldly or spiritual works

become easy because Sattva being increased it gives light and removes fear and inspires all

to one’s duties. The Gita says that the true knowledge is easy and comfortable to practise.

When Sattva is abundant the work will be done faster.

W. His Holiness was speaking before about the responsibility of the male in the society.

Could he say more about this as it seems important that men in the organisation should know

more about their functions.

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H.H. The field of male activity is wide open and it has no limits whatsoever. In order to

establish himself in this unprotected field he is endowed with courage and strength. This

courage and strength are what makes him hard. Hard does not mean being inanimate. He can

survive a hard and troublesome situation. This is the chief indication of the Purusha as

against Prakriti.

There are two general types. Some are soft while others are hard. The softness is the

reflection of Prakriti. The hard ones have great courage for adventure, for true or new

knowledge, and great tenacity to pursue their resolution to its success, come what may.

Obstacles do not deter them; they rather increase their tenacity. They can’t be stopped before

success.

The softer ones also have courage but not enough to initiate action. If conditions are

favourable enough they will work on well, but obstacles are not pleasant for them. They tend

to fear from troubles, if possible give up, or then try their baser wits. They are mercurial,

agitative, and can resort to oppression and cruelty. They don’t hesitate to use hypocrisy to

achieve their ends, or deception either. All this shows the lack of strength to achieve their

goal. In defeat they are sorry and in success they are overwhelmed with joy.

W. Your Holiness, in relation to the instruction to train few men to take responsibility,

is it just that the removal of excess Rajas and Tamas is necessary to raise the level of Sattva,

or in relation to the last answer, is there more to be done?

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H.H. Both these situations, the excess of Rajas and Tamas or the softer nature, are in fact

the manifestation of the same factor, the short supply of Sattva. But the discipline and

training is useful to all, soft or hard. Both can improve if they are ready to put the discipline

into practice. The hard ones being resolute and dedicated will catch up faster while softer

ones will take time. If they do have drive and dedication for the discipline then they also

stand equal chance to be trained for responsible position. Usually they are lazy and keep

postponing the practice of discipline.

Since all are governed by the Law of Three the Rajas and Tamas and Sattva, and

there being no possibility of all not being present under any condition, the possibility to

transform is always open to all. If there is drive and dedication for accumulation of Sattva,

sooner or later anyone can be transformed.

Even the ladies have these divisions. Some are a bit harder compared to others. The

real soft Prakriti of women is very easygoing while hard ones do show courage,

determination for transformation, and they too can succeed. There is no such obstacle in the

discipline but much certainly depends on the dedication.

W. When I was with His Holiness two years ago, in relation to the world of movement

and the world of stillness, it seemed he firmly wanted us to understand and appreciate the

world of stillness, so the more easily one’s doubts would be taken care of.

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H.H. A market is a place of movement where buying, selling and bargaining create a din.

All over people talk and buzz around. When one is proceeding towards the market one can

hear its noise and its din and one knows that the din is there and stillness is here. As one

proceeds the din becomes louder and the sound of silence seems to disappear and is lost in

the market din. When inside the market there is participation in the din and the silence or

stillness is lost. One becomes the market and the stillness is gone.

As soon as one comes out of the market one can appreciate the noise there and stillness here.

This is the usual way of life. Discipline helps to hear the noise and also the silence in the

middle of the market. If one maintains the stillness, then one does not become the market

although participating in it.

W. When reading the words of Vashishtha, in the third stage of yoga and the practice of

meditation he gives the absence of subjectivity and objectivity. It seems that the absence of

being subject and object relates very much to being out of the market when already in the

market.

H.H. Previously a similar concept of levels was given, which had seven levels of

knowledge, which also eliminate the feeling of doer and enjoyer of the objects of the world

to lead one to the ultimate unity or stillness. All concepts of doing and enjoying arise from

Ahamkar, which itself arises from the combination of Aham and Chitta. The pure Aham is

the consciousness, the Chaitanya, and it exists as the witness of all doing and enjoying.

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All associations of doing or enjoying manifest in Ahamkar. The Chitta or the Antahkaran has

four aspects: Chitta for memory and remembering, Ahamkar for ego, “I am this, I am that”,

and so on. The Buddhi reasons the wrong and right of desire or knowledge, and Manas

conveys the desire or rejection or alternatives.

All these four aspects of Chitta work through the light of consciousness which is

called Chit. In Chit is pure Aham and in Chitta is Ahamkar, having claims, but the power is

the same consciousness.

If someone steals then he deserves the title of a thief and gets proper punishment. If

one performs good deeds then again one deserves the title of good man and gets proper

reward for his action. The power of consciousness which remains only as a witness is neither

thief nor good man.

Thus, all claims of being doer of actions or enjoyer of objects relate to Ahamkar.

When the Viveka dawns then the division between the witness and doer takes place and one

understands that one is the witness and not the doer or enjoyer. This witness is the stillness.

The claims of doing and enjoying are the din of the market, the realm of movement, the place

of businessmen. In Gita Lord Krishna says, “The fool, whose mind is deluded by egoism,

considers himself to be the doer.”

As long as there is the feeling of doing and achieving, the individual is in the

movement and not in stillness. If one has a coat and hangs it in the wardrobe, the inanimate

coat can’t go to anyone’s body. It will remain where it is.

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When you put it on it will go along with you everywhere. Similar is the case with

body. Body is the coat; if one claims the body, mind and Chitta to be one’s own, then it goes

with one everywhere, but as soon as it is disclaimed than it belongs to its proper place, that is

Prakriti. Then the Aham becomes the witness, having no attachment. All claims of doer and

enjoyer are also like coat.

When one is on the road looking for a carriage one may call for a rikshaw, but the

rikshaw and the driver are different, and the call is answered by the driver and not by

rikshaw. Thus when we are called by some name it is the name of the body, but people take

it for the Self.

When by reason one learns to differentiate between the body and the spirit, then all

these claims of being the doer or the enjoyer do not matter. All pains and pleasures of body

and mind then do not torment or overwhelm, and remain still in movement.

W. When people meditate, if they are fortunate they come to pure consciousness. Now

in the school, and people meeting in the groups, they seem again to be able to appreciate pure

consciousness and the presence of pure Aham. And then it all seems simple just as His

Holiness said - to go into the market and not become the market. The only problem is, when

they do go into the market, they tend to get mixed up.

H.H. This is exactly the reason that meditation has been prescribed. The situation should

not cause any despair for meditation is available for the help. The creation is as it is,

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we do need to go into the market for we can’t do without it; it is made for us, and in order to

avoid the pangs of pleasure and pains of the market one needs to go into the stillness of the

consciousness as a witness. Both are necessary and unavoidable. One cannot give up one for

the other.

The misconception does prevail, and people think that one of the two must be given

up for a peaceful existence. Some consider market as the necessary and likeable place for

every day need and pleasure, and if one has to be in it daily why bother to go into silence or

stillness. Others find the market place as den of rogues, so keep aloof and refuse to

participate. Both are wrong. One needs market for worldly life and one also needs stillness to

increase one’s power and consciousness.

One eats to satisfy one’s hunger and hunger follows after one eats, but because one

has to face them one after the other one can’t give up one for the other. Thus one should not

worry too much as long as one stays with meditation. Better the act of meditation, lesser will

be the din of the market.

The streets have lamp posts at a distance. Both shed light from this distance and the

darkness in the middle becomes ineffective. As long as the lamp posts are there the darkness

can be transcended easily. Regular meditations and total stillness twice a day is enough to

minimise the terror of the world market. One should give up the terrifying concept of market

as a wicked place if one also goes to stillness. Without stillness the market place could

certainly be overpowering.

An old man could not understand that the distance between

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Joshimatha and Badarinath and from Badarinath to Joshimatha was the same 27 miles. He

thought it must be different. Same is true of market and stillness. They are part of the same

creation and they are both equal. Attend to them equally and then neither market or

meditation will frighten you.

W. In meditation when there is appreciation of stillness then people know what is

meant by Dharma; one finds that there is this sense of bare thread running through all

activities. Is this right? There is the Japa, Dharma and Yoga forming three parts of

meditation. Dharma is maintaining the bare thread between Japa and Yoga.

H.H. Dharma is not separate from Dharmi. (Dharma is the nature and Dharmi is the

Being who has his nature). The meaning of Yoga is to unite, and similarly Vijoga means

separation. When one does Japa, through the repetition of mantra the Chittavritti unites with

the mantra, and this unity is also the stillness which relates to the Atman.

In case of the Dharana in Yoga, the stillness unites with the Atman. All the

movements between two Dharanas become ordinary and have least effect. After the end of

an action or movement and before the initiation of another action or movement there is a gap

and gap is the opportunity of stillness. This gap is ever available between two actions. But

this opportune moment is not ordinarily appreciated. It can be appreciated only when we

have practised the stillness for some time, because in this stillness one knows that the

movement so far has come to a stop, and after some time the movement will

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take over. Thus, between two movements is the Dharma. The same is the Atman, for Dharma

is never separate from Dharmi, that is Atman. This is ever existent in movement or without

movement. The Rajas and Tamas may seem to activate it but its natural state of stillness is

not lost because between two activities the stillness, the gap naturally reappears. It is always

there and available but can’t be appreciated unless one has a taste of stillness in meditation.

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Fourth Audience with Mr. Whiting. 24th January 1980.

W. Your Holiness, your words yesterday made everything seem very simple and clear.

May we continue that conversation. It seems obvious that there is a world of consciousness

as well as a world of movement. One wonders why it takes so long to discover this, when it

is so obvious that in that world of consciousness there is stillness and one cannot be moved.

H.H. Birds have two wings by nature and it is the interplay of both the wings which

allows them to fly high in the sky. If one of the wings is cut off or put out of action, then the

bird is forced to stay on the earth and it cannot fly any more. Similarly, there are two wings

of our existence - the material and the spiritual. Somehow people seem to prefer the use of

one wing only and either cling to the material wing or the spiritual wing. Since both are

naturally necessary there is much strife in search of bliss. Unless people realise the need to

use both wings and refrain from being partial, the Atman will be deprived of freedom and

bliss which all seek. Unless this truth is realised the work can’t pick up speed, nor can the

flight into the spiritual world materialise.

W. One can see that there is no withdrawal, but discovering this other world is like

coming into a new world. It’s like being born, or like being a small child, and the question is

how to speak, how to walk and how to act.

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H.H. It has been observed in the scriptures that the wise man behaves like a child, not that

his actions are childish, but because of the wisdom, he is alive to the present. The goodness

of a child’s action is that whatever the child does it leaves no scar on the Antahkaran of the

child. He always starts afresh. He may be happy now and may cry next but all in the

moment. He enjoys it all and does not hang on to any action. No sooner the act is over, the

memory of it is also gone, the happiness or sorrow is gone as if it did not exist. He is neither

bothered by the past nor hankering for future.

The wise man who behaves like a child is always filled with bliss. He does not leave

his bliss to tackle situations, and he does so without being influenced by the deeds of the past

or due achievements of the future. He is always in bliss and free.

W. When a man becomes established in this other world while dealing fully with the

ordinary world, is he at the stage of Asansakti?.

H.H. This establishment of a wise man in the state of stillness of the spiritual world

corresponds between the higher levels of the ladder of knowledge from Asansakti to the

Turiya. Thus Asansakti is the lowest level for such a man. As was previously explained the

entry into the spiritual world starts with a good impulse, the Shubheccha. Unless one has a

desire of one’s own, the spiritual world would remain at a distance. This good impulse would

demand proper consideration, reasoning and then

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resolution in Suricharana. Having resolved, the discipline is allowed to work which reduces

the abundance of blemishes, Rajas and Tamas at the stage of Tanumansa.

The next stage is thus cleared for growth of Sattva, which throws the light of true

knowledge on all that one perceives, conceives or acts. One feels light, for there is little to be

agitated in Sattvapatti. After which the attachments with the material world loose their grip

and one can naturally deal with all matters without any favour to any aspect or party. This

brings in dawn of universality and justice in Asansakti.

Having severed attachment one has to acquire the true vision of the universe. Just as

people see and value the form of a golden ornament and appreciate the appearance and the

gold, the wise man gives up these values of the world and sees the gold or the Absolute or

the Golden Atman in everything of this creation in Padartha bhawani. From this point the

unity of the Self with the Absolute comes within Turiya in which all is united in pure Aham.

He thus merges into the creative force of the universe. Thus, one who has acquired the

stillness which does not disturb his peace in the market-place, would be at one of the higher

three stages.

W. For years we have been running and running and running, trying to find this very

possibility, not realising that it was already there. Now when one sits with the people in

London and meditates with them, one finds that pure consciousness which still remains when

one comes out, so one may speak with them, move with them but still with that

consciousness. And sitting

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here now, it seems obvious that one can see it. Therefore it seems that it is a practical

possibility to find Asansakti. Is that really so?

H.H. The stage of Asansakti is certainly a higher stage in the development of one’s being.

This is where the detachment comes to maturity. One can consider this stage of securing a

licence for driving. One enters the realm of drivers or leaders of society. You are now trusted

to move with speed on public roads without endangering others’ life or body.

A new driver usually likes to drive with speed to prove his ability. But there remains a

great difference between a new driver and an old and experienced driver. When road is clear

and crossings are wide anyone can drive along, but in points of danger and crisis, only the

experienced driver communicates with natural ease, whereas the new driver gets into panic

and may press the accelerator instead of the brake and bring about an accident.

The experienced driver understands the situation and avoids all danger and meets no

accident. Thus Asansakti is good starting point but one still needs much experience for better

drive.

W. I feel more like a driver of three days, only hoping that His Holiness will give a

push from behind to establish it wore firmly.

H.H. This is a happy situation. You have received the knowledge and experience will

follow in course of time and work. The wisdom would arise from experience and establish

you firmly. It is

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much better compared to those who either leave midway or do not start, or do not even

enquire.

W. It seems that if only just a few men could be established at this stage, then a great

change would take place in the nation, or as you said, even in the world.

H.H. One needs only 5% of the people to be well-informed and trained to lead the other

95%. One in a hundred remains overwhelmed by others and is usually ridiculed. Thus

preparation of good following is most essential. These must have proper information and

they must try to put the discipline into practice so as to be able to deal with problems in

public affairs.

There must be also someone with thorough experience to guide these in all critical

matters. There is an episode from Mahabharata which explains this well. During the great

war, when one day Arjuna was away from the battle to quell uprising somewhere else, the

Kauravas set up a unique battle formation called Chakravyuha. This had 7 gates and each

gate was well fortified to repel entry. Only Arjuna had the knowledge to penetrate this

formation to break open all gates and beat the enemy. Since he was absent the other four

Pandavas were worried and wondered what to do since none of them had any notion to

penetrate this formation. Arjuna’s young son, Abhimanyu, offered his services because he

knew much about it. While in womb he had heard the description of the Chakravyuha from

his father who was describing it to his mother. But there was one snag. By the time Arjuna

spoke of the

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7th gate, the mother went to sleep and the description stopped. The Pandava brothers said to

him that if you could break six gates then we might all help you to break the seventh.

Abhimanyu went to fight and broke through six gates. At the seventh he didn’t

know what to do. This was the gate of deception and all of a sudden a number of enemy

generals appeared and killed him. There was no help at hand because others couldn’t force

their entry even at the first gate.

The story emphasises the need for thorough knowledge and good practice. Without

such background one can achieve much, but the end may not be happy.

Most people have enough knowledge of their origin, their states of pleasure and

pain. They also know the approaching end. They work out a good standard of living and

culture, but then find out that birth and death are appearances, pleasures and pains are

ineffective. That one is eternal and needs no attachments to exist with dignity and honour for

oneself and others is a different level of living.

One who knows this alone, knows, and he lives in bliss within all worldly

movements. Such a person leads the society or nation. Mere knowledge is not enough, for

practice of knowledge is most essential. Smriti must become natural. Only then material and

spiritual worlds work in unison without any hardship.

W. Yes, it seems that the way is clear and it needs to be established. When the birds

grow the other wing, then they are free from the earth. This is presumably the same for the

man, that he enters the world of freedom.

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H.H. In practical worldly life when someone is appointed on a job he is already educated

and trained for that job. He takes oath to be faithful and sincere and then is introduced in the

department. Even though educated and trained his work is not easy in the beginning. As he

gets experience he does the same job with ease and efficiency.

Similarly, in the spiritual world, one needs knowledge, must have resolution, be

faithful and sincere and work with others. Only experience in relation to “Who I am’, ‘What

is this universe?’. ‘Who is the Creator?’ and ‘What are my responsibilities to the Creator, the

universe and myself?’ are helpful. When all this becomes natural and one can manage these

affairs with ease and bliss, then such a person becomes an example for the society and then

he leads them.

There are many men who either take to the physical world or segregate themselves

to the spiritual world. They may be well placed in worldly affairs and lead a good life or,

having renounced the world, fear the practical world and ignore it. Both are partial and

incomplete. The one who is complete is rare. Such a man is like a boatman, single, but good

enough to lead many to the other side of the river.

The wise man could be only one, and even if he takes up one system, he will create

helpers and reform the society or the nation. He will have to work hard in the sense that a

teacher has to study more than the student. People work for money which can buy them

things, for utility and pleasure. Many do this successfully to a limit. They all seek happiness

but real happiness eludes them. They buy

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foam mattress for comfort but their worries don’t let them sleep. A rich man’s son can buy a

fountain-pen for Rp 1000/- but if he hasn’t learned to write, what use is the costly pen?

There are many who know how to earn and how to enjoy the pleasures of the world,

but those who can establish a good worldly life and yet maintain their bliss are rare. They

remain blissful all the time under all circumstances and remain free from everything. The

nations need such free men with unbreakable bliss who both sides are complete, for they

alone are free and can make others free.

W. It is valuable to be reminded that one must clear the fog. This is so very important

in the practice of meditation. Presumably it has been cleared if a man has been established in

stillness. A man who is established in stillness is in constant meditation, as it is given in

many scriptures, as was the story of wise man distributing the bread and staying in constant

meditation.

H.H. In Indian tradition of spiritual study there is a peculiar practice still in use. This is

known as ‘Sinhavalokan’. it is a general knowledge that when a lion moves in the jungle he

stops for a moment and looks back to make sure everything is in order and he is in full

control of the situation. The tradition of scriptural study is that when an important book

(Arshahagrantha - book by a wise man) has been thoroughly studied it is not put on the shelf

for ever. It must be referred to again and again after some interval of time. One need not

study the whole thing

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again. One needs only see some part of the beginning, some of the end, the conclusion, and

some part from the middle. This will revive all the memory and nothing will be lost. This

must be done again and again.

Similarly in this spiritual, or other matter, one must look back and take a note of the

stage one started, the stage one has come to, and what one has done some time in the middle.

If one does so then one will become aware of the shortcomings and then do something about

it. This practice is very helpful to one’s progress on the way.

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Fifth Audience with Mr. Whiting. 25th January 1980

W. When people are given the mantra and they take it in for the first time, most people

find that the mantra slows and they come to a state of peace and stillness. For some people

the mantra does not slow and there is little change. Is there anything that should be done?

H.H. The natural course of meditation remains the same. Give momentum to the mantra

and let it slow and be still of its own natural accord. The Manas has to follow the mantra;

thus the attention is on the mantra. Mantra is not allowed to follow the Manas. Those whose

mantra does not slow down must be keeping up the speed, or they are frightened to turn

inward.

Just as one eats food and knows that it will go through the process of digestion, and

the energies contained will be transformed into the required materials for a healthy use and

growth of the body, the mantra sounds and vibrations work in the Antahkaran in two ways. It

cleanses the impurities and establishes stillness. In the still Antahkaran, which is also pure,

the light of the Atman shines.

The process of meditation is to start with speed and then withdraw force and let it

slow and come to stillness. This will do its necessary job in the Antahkaran. Those who

cannot follow this should be separated from others. They should be asked to pronounce the

mantra which can be heard. Let them do so for 10 minutes, after which they can start mantra

silently and this will help them to slow

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down the mantra and find some stillness.

W. The sounding of the mantra is not clear. Does it need to be done at the time of the

initiation, or would that continue for some time when they are meditating on their own?

H.H. As far as the initiation ceremony is concerned, it has already been said the mantra

will be introduced loud and clear. This instruction is applicable when they can’t find

stillness. So this must be later on. These persons must be kept separate from others during

meditation so that others are not affected by them. The pronunciation doesn’t have to be very

loud, but must be very clear first and later with lips closed.

W. As His Holiness has said, some people are afraid to let go completely. They will go

so far but they are afraid to let go to complete stillness. It seems to be particularly so with

some of the ladies.

H.H. When one has to catch a prey, two modes are supplied; one either shoots them or

attracts them. Human beings can be attracted much too easily. Such people can be induced to

pronounce the mantra in a melodious and rhythmic manner. This they can manage

themselves and no other person needs to lead them on any set rhythm. Ten minutes of such

practice should be enough to bring them round to usual meditation in which mantra would

slow down and then be still.

W. I think we need to clear one point on the arrangements for

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the initiations. I am not sure we made it very clear that in South Africa and New Zealand

they have their own initiators, but for America, Holland, Belgium, Greece, Cyprus, Malta

and many towns in Britain, there are tour initiators based in London who travel to these

places and give initiations, usually at weekends. His Holiness says that people who have

been given the meditation have to be seen one week later and be checked. Would he like to

comment, because normally these people go for two days and return to London to their

duties.

H.H. There is no fixed rule for checking the pronunciation of the mantra. It can be

checked after any interval even after one day or any number of days. The need is that it must

be checked by the initiator and no-one else. A wrong pronunciation may not do any harm as

such but progress will be slow. To avoid such happenings one must check in due course,

before it is too late.

W. One other thing that people respond to very readily in the development in general in

the school is the appreciation of listening and the sound of silence. Could His Holiness say

something on this matter?

H.H. As far as any listening is concerned, the term indicates an action by a being. When

in stillness, the being is supposed to have given up all activity. To listen properly is certainly

a product of discipline. Listening to the sound of silence is either turning inwards to stillness

or creating some inaudible speech in one’s mind. When turned inward one can easily listen

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to the Manas, Buddhi, Chitta or Ahamkar and they do not produce any loud sound. When

totally still you are silence yourself and the Atman is in presence. The real silence comes not

only from absence of physical and audible sounds but also from the silence of desire,

reasoning, remembering or even conceiving some ideas about Aham and Idam. When there

is nothing to listen then Atman is, and Atman does not speak while every other thing does.

Thus, listening to the sound of silence is either being oneself or listening to someone in one’s

Antahkaran.

W. He directed our attention to the subtle qualitative essence in the elements. He said

that the elements are moving and the essence is still. People found great inspiration in his

words and were moved in practice to discover stillness in movement so that one could

apparently appreciate that one is in touch so that that touch would seem to be the touch of

Aham. The taste becomes almost a taste of Aham, or all smell gives the fragrance of Aham,

and also the sound of Aham. Could he comment on that?

H.H. The Atman is fundamentally still, but all that which moves is moved by the force of

the Atman. Thus, whatever seems to move, and that which does not move, are parts of the

same Atman. Atman which is still is at the centre of power. Meditation which leads to

stillness brings the individual to this centre of energy which he can use to conduct all

movements in much more organised way. When mantra does go inward it acts in two ways:

it cleanses the impurities of the bodies, physical, subtle and emotional and that leads it to

stillness, the store of energy.

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Physical body is composed of the five elements and is bound by movement called upon by

nature or one’s subtle and causal bodies. The Antahkaran can be both still and mobile. The

movements are caused by desires (Sankalpas and Vikalpas) reasoning, thinking, worrying

and remembering. When they are reduced the Antahkaran’s movements are reduced and it

can become still. Loss of all desires means a steady Antahkaran. Mantra cleanses the

Antahkaran and with this the scope to experience the pure Aham increases.

Antahkaran acts like a mirror. A clean and steady mirror would give clean and steady

reflection for proper appreciation and enjoyment. But a dirty or mobile mirror will either

give dirty reflection or unrecognisable reflections. Both are useless for understanding or

appreciation. It is therefore necessary to reduce the desires for a steady Antahkaran and deep

meditation to cleanse the impurities in the Antahkaran for clear understanding and

appreciation of the universe made of elements and essence.

As for the touch of Aham or taste of Aham - it is misunderstanding of the terms.

Aham and Idam constitute this creation. Aham is Sat, Chit and Ananda. Idam contains

everything that reflects Sat, Chit and Ananda through elements, essences, sensations,

thinking and feeling. Aham is still, although it provides all the energies necessary for the

Idam and its multifarious forms of this creation to exist, provides all sensations through the

elements and their qualities, and all thinking and feeling. To know anything or think about

anything is to know and think of Idam. It is done by Aham.

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When one experiences the beauty of vision or the essence of the form and colour or

touch and taste one can do so only from Idam. One never sees or touches or tastes the Aham.

What one experiences is the bliss which is the being of Aham. To be Aham is to be still. One

can’t touch it. Aham is beyond experience because it is the experiencer. The eyes see beauty,

but who does really feel the bliss of beauty. Eyes are instruments and the real witness of

beauty and bliss is the Aham, the Atman, which provides the power to see. If that force is

missing, eyes can’t see. They see through the light of the Atman.

Same applies to all organs of senses, organs of action, and also the Antahkaran, with

Manas, Buddhi, Chitta and Ahamkar. They enjoy bliss from Idam because the bliss, the

Atman, pervades everywhere. Consciousness pervades everywhere. Consciousness is not

movement. Consciousness knows itself, and knows everything through these agencies. When

it knows itself then no Idam will be there. It is all in stillness. So the taste of Aham or touch

of Aham is a mistake in terms. It is existence, consciousness or bliss itself.

W. If I can give an experience to make sure that it is clear. When this hand goes on this

table, it can feel a physical sensation, but if one has some appreciation of the inner quality in

the sense of touch, in that touch is the stillness. One appears to be in the presence of that

which is one. And this is so with all the senses.

H.H. When one is one, there is no appearance of another one

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anywhere. Atman knows itself in stillness. When it experiences any sensory qualities it arises

from Idam. It is not possible to experience any qualities of the Atman because it hasn’t any.

All qualities belong to Idam. Atman being the experiencer, can’t be experienced. There is

nothing to be found about it. The taste and beauty in Idam is only due to the power of Aham.

Things become tasteless, or lack beauty, when the power of Aham is not there or not in the

observer.

If tongue is not in order it can’t appreciate the taste, because the power of Aham is not

available. No-one acclaims oneself to himself. No-one consumes himself. The sun does light

his own light. Whenever there is any claim of beauty or touch it relates to the Idam. When

the beauty or taste is experienced as blissful then no claims are made, for it comes from

wisdom that it is all expression of the Atman, which is everywhere. There is no duplicate

Aham to be appreciated.

W. Yesterday His Holiness said that only a free man can help others, and in his last

message to the School he said “May you bring happiness to the Self, to the nation and to the

world by understanding your true path”. Could he say more.

H.H. A man who is free alone can free others. This is true, but a man who is free never

considers anybody bound. For himself he knows and experiences that everyone is free. It is

because of the true knowledge. Freedom, experience and knowledge of freedom is not only

freedom of oneself. it is the freedom in itself. When you reach that stage you do not see

anyone

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bound, but others may, due to their ignorance. Because they feel bound they have to be

liberated by one who does not see any bondage. Such a person uses his knowledge and

ingenuity to see the points where these people suppose themselves to be bound and not free.

The ties can then be released. And then if it happens, when it happens, all these people who

have always found themselves to be bound, would realise their ignorance that they were not

really bound at all. They thought that they were bound. In fact all those things which were

binding them were the expression of their own ignorance. This is what everyone has to

understand.

There are two examples. When monkeys have to be caught, there is a trick in doing so.

A round earthen pot with a small mouth is buried in the open ground. An eatable object with

inviting smell is put inside. When monkeys get the smell they come close and put their hand

inside and clinch the object, which restricts pulling out. Monkey doesn’t know that he can be

free. He doesn’t want to release the thing and yet wants to be free, so he cries and can’t run

away. That is the moment when the hiding man appears and catches the monkey for his own

use.

Most of the people who think that they are not free are acting like this monkey. They

are holding on to something, maybe things of beauty, fragrance or taste. Only if they could

release their hold, they are free, because in truth they are free. And all our knowledge which

is at our service is made available to everyone simply to show to the people that all this

beauty is the creation of your own self, free to be appreciated and create the bliss which is all

you want.

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Don’t attach yourself to anything, because the moment you do so the bliss will

disappear and you will not enjoy this creation which is totally free. There is no bondage

whatsoever. Then there is another example.

A dog is given a dry bone to chew. There is nothing in the bone but because of the

shape, in chewing it his mouth bleeds which he relishes as coming through the bone. This is

all that is happening in this creation. When you hold on to anything you can’t create this

freedom. If you can just let it go and see that this blood which you are tasting is the

expression of your own self, then you will forget to chew the bone. You can appreciate

everything in this creation and be happy and not be attached, or miserable and try to be free.

You are free and you are made free, and free man knows that everyone is free.

Blessings from His Holiness:

You yourself should feel free and understand yourself to be free and in bliss, and

give all this knowledge to all your men so that they can also feel they are not bound. They

are also free and the bliss of this creation is their own. Pass it on to your Society, nation and

the world. I wish you success. When the true knowledge within you will throw its light in the

world, others who have not received will also receive and find the same light. In turn they

can spread that light in their Society and give the true knowledge, establish their freedom and

assure that all the bliss they experience is their own. This is the way the influences of

Sachchidinanda can be passed on to the people and at large to everyone.

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W. It is obvious that this knowledge is there for sure. It is just a question of getting it

realised, as being with His Holiness seems to act as a confirmation of what he has already

said.

R. GUYATT & M. ALLAN

AUDIENCES

9 & 10 February 1982

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INTRODUCTION (M.A.)

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We set off for the Ashram at 8.30 a.m. and the procedure seemed very familiar! First of all the regular car was there, but out of action, and we left in another taxi! Jaiswal in front, Bharati, Richard Guyatt and I in the back. It looked at one moment as if the taxi might break down too, but with the aid of constant choke adjustments we continued. Instead of turning left at the final crossroads and going to the Ashram we continued straight on as if going to the “Sangam” or confluence where the Mela is held. The Khumba Mela finished yesterday (Richard Guyatt and I had been down at tea time when the crowds had thinned out a great deal, and traffic regulations ceased, so that our car was able to take us right down through the camps, prepared for five million nearly to the water. People were still taking their dip and many people were out on the water in small boats). This time we were going for our audience with H.H. at the temple He has restored. It is at the top of the camp and you look from it right down the wide road in the camp to the confluence. There were still many people about and lots of families leaving for home with their bundles, cases etc. We stood and watched the scene while Jaiswal bought some flowers just outside the temple. The temple is simple and unadorned outside, except for what Richard Guyatt called a ‘pink lozenge’ on the top of the tower. Otherwise it is white washed with powder blue shutters and looks more like a small Ashram. There were wide steps leading up to the actual temple with metal shutters open, and people were going in and out, but we were asked not to go in. We entered further down the side of the building by going down a few steps and under a low arch into an open courtyard with rooms round it. A large tree stands at one end of the little courtyard with Sanyasins’ orange robes drying on and beside it (presumably after a dip in the Sangam?). We were shown to a small steep stone staircase - just like the one we ascended in the Ashram. We went up and took off our shoes at the top. As we stepped into the first floor still overlooking the courtyard we were greeted by Sri Narayan. On each side of the courtyard is quite a wide covered area which could be used for a gathering, and rooms opening off by the staircase we had ascended. We turned left and stepped into the room in which H.H. was waiting. Again it was very familiar. H.H. was sitting on a day bed with mosquito frame, and His banner lying across the top left hand side - but the bed was very simple polished wood with no carving behind. On it was an orange damask bedspread and on top of that a deer skin on which He was sitting. He looked little changed but as it was cold He was enveloped in a thick orange wool robe, and only His head was visible outside it. The room was almost

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square with blue shutters closed against the cold on three sides. We sat on the usual chairs in front of the usual table, with our backs to the only solid wall. On H.H.’s left, in the corner, was a large khaki coloured metal cupboard like a filing cupboard. There was a small table near the head of His body with a large round alarm clock on it, and in front of the bed was a simple silver stool with flowers on it. He appeared very warm and welcoming, and we began with meditation, preceded and ended by quite a strong chant from H.H. with the words Shanti, Shanti, Shanti quite forceful and then fading away at the end. When we left the room after the audience Sri Narayan met us again - he asked after Dr. Roles and his health and said he had received Dr. Roles’ letter about the Keertan and would try to record some at some future date. He also asked for a copy of the Index, so we will leave the one we have brought. I forgot to mention the presence of the Shankaracharya’s ceremonial guard - a younger man than the last, dressed in simple khaki uniform, but with a splendid old double barrelled shotgun - the barrels of which appeared to be painted with silver paint. He presented arms at the bottom of the staircase when we ascended to meet H.H., and came out to the car when we left each day, and again presented arms. On the second day H.H. was even more welcoming - the meditation seemed very brief, and He gave us one and three quarters of an hour of question and answer. He gave very full answers on important subjects and then a most welcoming and warm message to us both. The weather was slightly warmer and one of the shutters was open, and when H.H. brought His left arm out of the orange blanket He was wearing, we were amused and surprised to see He was wearing a very modern gold bracelet wrist watch! After I took some pictures of the outside of the temple building, and ascended the steps of the actual temple and was invited to photograph the statues from the entrance (they won’t come out as it was quite dark inside) but I could see life size very colourful and representational statues which I was told were Rama, Sita and Lakshmi. Sri Narayan was there both to welcome us and see us off. We gave him A - M. of the Index and promised to forward the remaining pages when properly typed.

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Allahabad AUDIENCE 1 19th February, 1982.

M.A. Although we know His Holiness has said Dr. Roles inherited all, and this was

re-read to greet Dr. Roles on his 80th birthday, the chance of coming here to His Holiness

was greeted with great joy by everybody, and it brought great happiness in London just to

know of the impending visit. We bring greetings from Dr. Roles, from them all, and

particularly from those missing from our 1979 visit here.

I know Dr. Roles has written to His Holiness in regard to Mrs. Roles’ peaceful end,

and his own personal work. He has continued without an interval to help and inspire us as

usual. We have one personal question from him which we will put later.

He has a wide vision of the role of our Society in the future, after his departure. He

spoke of this just before we left, and gave us again the story of the elephant, the blind people

and the mahout as told by His Holiness. He hoped our Society would be a place to which

people searching or in doubt could come to find True Knowledge through the words of His

Holiness, and confidence and support to take into their own sphere of life as householders.

Has His Holiness any particular instructions for us on this short visit, or may we put

a few questions on the future and our strong desire to improve our meditation, because we

know that only by this method can we become adequate ‘channels’ for these tasks I’ve

mentioned?

H.H. His Holiness offers His blessings and good wishes to Dr. Roles

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and He wishes him to have good health and to keep on serving his Society, to keep on

inspiring his members so that the Society enlarges its scope and fits in to the service of the

nation which it represents, with True Knowledge and with confidence, so that they can

support other people in the nation.

Now He would like to hear some of your questions?

R.G. Firstly, I would like to say how deeply grateful I am to have the opportunity to be in

the presence of His Holiness again and to say how sorry I am that my wife, who was with me

last time, is unable to be here now because of ill health, but she sends respectful messages of

love to His Holiness. We both, jointly, want to express our gratitude for all the help we have

received from His Holiness since our last visit.

H.H. Indicates R.G. should proceed.

R.G. Dr. Roles, in considering the next stage in his journey, has asked us to seek an

assurance from His Holiness that He will continue to support our work with His generous

guidance, so that the activities at Colet House will still retain the untold benefit of His

interest.

In this connection we are aware that, in spite of all the knowledge so freely given to

us by His Holiness over the years, our level of being is such that we feel we are sure to be in

need of guidance from time to time, over the problems which may arise both in the giving of

the Meditation and in our group work. For this purpose, may we keep in touch with His

Holiness so that,

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if we feel a direct approach is necessary we shall be in a position to do so? Dr. Roles has also

asked for His Holiness’s confirmation that we have His authority in relation to the

Meditation, and all of us join him in the realisation that His Holiness’s blessing is essential

for the future work of our Society.

H.H. In the course of time answers to questions arising have been given, and they have

been given to you in such magnitude that, if you look at them again, you will be able to find

the answer to any question that could arise. So, as far as knowledge is concerned, you are

almost self-sufficient. But this does not mean that there will be no contact any more.

As far as guidance is concerned, there are two types of guidance - one is the

manifest, physical guidance which is being conducted here now and which has been given

previously. But there is another level of guidance and care - that is the mental and spiritual

care. That He assures you will always be available, has always been available.

As far as physical contact is concerned, His Holiness has now retired from the

institution which He was leading. He believes that His end is also night and He has to

prepare Himself just as Dr. Roles is preparing Himself for the next stage of his journey. This

being so, it is reasonable that He should devote as much time on inner work Himself so that

the next journey is easy and right. There will be certain limitations on the time available

because He wants seclusion from the world as much as possible.

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Nevertheless if his health allows, and if He is here and if He has free time, certainly

whenever you need help he will be available. The doors are not closed at all. There may be

longer intervals and shorter visits.

As for authority in the Meditation - that was given to you long ago and He does not

see any need to reiterate it in any way.

Meditation is more important than food - it is itself food - spiritual food. without

which the inner content of one’s being cannot be strengthened. One can survive without

physical food for a day or two, but without Meditation one would always feel that something

is missing, inner strength is missing. In order to substantiate that inner strength, one must

always carry on the tradition twice every day. If the Meditation is properly done then as has

previously been said, one reaches the inner core of one’s own Self, and from there all the

finer energy for efficient work is available.

The world today at large is facing difficulties as far as the spiritual field is

concerned, and people are looking for guidance. He believes that your Society, with all the

available knowledge which you possess, and the practice which you have gone through,

should be able to take a leading part in the nation, so that you can guide their destiny, bring

them to the fold of meditation so that their inner being is improved.

It is like a cloud which encircles the sun which is ever shining - now the world is

within this cloud and this cloud has to be removed. Meditation and the Knowledge which has

been given to you should be able to eliminate this cloud, so that the brilliance of everyone’s

Self is made available for each individual and for society.

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Through the Meditation, love among each other and among the community, and for the

spiritual leader should increase, and as it increases, the gain from Meditation and Knowledge

also deepens.

M.A. What His Holiness has just said links exactly with what we felt before coming here

- that we know we have all the wonderful material - which is now in twelve volumes for

which we have finished the index so that it can be readily available, but we feel very

deficient in the inner peace to really manifest it adequately as a thank you for all that His

Holiness has given us. When we heard about the visit, I said to Dr. Roles that I really only

had one question - it was how to have more stillness to work from this deep peace. I said to

you (J) yesterday that if the best way was to sit here and say nothing for two audiences and

learn how to be still, we would be forgiven in London if we took nothing more home because

they all want more of this stillness, deep peace too.

H.H. His Holiness is very pleased to hear your statement.

M.A. We have brought some questions from meditators in London which are very general

- they are all towards getting increased stillness. At the meetings which Dr. Roles holds for

meditators to hear stories and explanations of His Holiness, and at which there are usually

about 300, when we meditate together there is a general feeling of greater physical stillness

in the room, but the individuals say that, although they get this physical

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stillness more quickly now, they still find much movement in their minds, and they ask how

to get more quickly to the deep peace, and to have longer there?

H.H. The achievement of physical stillness is not an ordinary thing in itself - it is a very

important achievement. There are three factors which come together as far as the meditation

is concerned - the body, the eyes and the mind. When the body is totally still, the next

movement is found in the eyes, they will keep on flickering, however slight this may be.

When the eyes are still it is most probable that the mind will follow suit. Mind does move

according to the movement of the body. And there are other factors - but body first, eyes

next, must be followed peacefully by the mind.

Meditation, as it has been given to you, starts with the body, and the training of the

body to become still is the first stage of entry into the spiritual world. His Holiness

commends people that that has been achieved, and He does not see much difficulty in

achieving the stillness of the mind in due course.

There is a sage who wrote the Mandukya Upanishad. Mandukya is a word which

really means ‘frog’, and this sage who had evolved a system says that with ‘three jumps’ one

can get into the deepest level of the Self, just as a frog who happens to be on dry land and is

getting scorched by the sun and wants to be cool and peaceful can jump into the water with

three jumps where he can enjoy the cool and peace of the deepest water. Similarly, these are

the three jumps we need, and with these three jumps it should be possible to establish the

stillness of the mind.

J. Sometimes it seems that the body is totally still and yet mind is moving around on

different subjects. Can His Holiness

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say more about how to still the mind when the body is totally still?

H.H. The relation of mind to body is already established and strong; nothing is

independent, and everything starts with the body. If the body is still there is no reason at all

why the mind should not be still - so if mind is not still the only conclusion is that body has

not yet become totally still - there must be some movement in the body which needs to be

stilled. Once it is totally still then you will find mind surrenders its movement and becomes

still.

M.A. This leads to another question we brought about the “automatic” process -

Q. On an earlier occasion His Holiness said you could not tailor your physical body but

that you could tailor your subtle level, but only by going to the Causal level, and that once

you pronounced the Mantra properly the process was ‘automatic’. Can we know more about

this ‘automatic’ process, and whether faith is needed that it is going on even if one does not

recognise deep peace? In other words if one still feels inadequate about the deep peace, is the

automatic process proceeding?

(Note: ‘automatic’, was the word given in the translation and Dr. Roles wondered if

this meant ‘natural’? J. confirmed that the word was ‘automatic’, and reminded us that H.H.

had given as an example that once you planted a seed in right conditions it automatically

grows, though unseen at the beginning.)

H.H. In situations where mind does not become still one can put a resolution to the mind

that we are disturbed when

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meditation is going on - so (to the mind) ‘I delegate you to be the gatekeeper of my inner

body. You stay there and do not let any movement take place in the body, in the eyes, and do

not allow any thoughts to come into me because I am going to be busy with the Self’. Put a

resolution, make a resolution, delegate the mind, and see that the job which has been given is

carried out by the mind - let it do this job! If it does stand at the gate of the inner being it will

be doing the job properly and you will not be troubled. This is a resolution which you have to

give to your mind.

R.G. (to M.A.) Does this answer the part about the ‘automatic’ process?

M.A. They ask whether, if they start the Mantra, and do have these troubles with the

moving mind which comes and goes during the half hour, the automatic process on the

causal level is still taking place?

H.H. When one sits for the Meditation in a still position there may be distractions outside

while one is trying to meditate, and these distractions will attract the mind. One has to learn

not to be distracted by outer influences. Apart from outer distractions, there are internal riots!

These keep going in the mind, and this is only attending to certain things which one wants to

do, and this is all mind is doing - it is presenting different ‘files’ for your consideration!

When you are almost still you can give more energy to these files, so

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your mind tries to help you to look at those files! In fact this in not the time for those files, so

make a resolution - tell the mind this is not the time for those files - ‘When 1 have finished

my meeting with the Self I will surely attend to those files’. Then you will attend to those

files later and resolve those questions which seem to be bothering the mind. This is the way

-order him - he will follow your commands provided you do command - make a resolution,

let him stay at the gate, and ask him not to allow any files to be presented to you because this

is not the time, you will see them later on. And do see them later on.

His Holiness gives a story which He may have given before:

Someone in pursuit of spiritual knowledge and practice turned to some sort of rituals in order to gain control of a ghost. He hoped to get most of his work done by this ghost so that he would be free himself to meditate, study and do spiritual work. So he gained control of the ghost in order to use it like a servant. But this ghost was very powerful, and very quick to complete the tasks and then return for more orders. Before the ghost had taken on the job it had said that if there was no work, it would devour the man. This was the condition, it must be kept busy all the time! This man thought there was plenty to do so the ghost could be kept busy like any other human being, but the ghost was so fast that very soon it finished all the work the man could think of.

Now this man had an inspiration, and said to himself that with the quickness of this ghost it was impossible to give it enough jobs, so it should be given some job to do which it must attend all the time, but which would never come to an end. He got an idea and asked the ghost to cut a bamboo pole and bring it to him. He asked the ghost to fix the bamboo pole in the courtyard. When the ghost had fixed it firmly there the man said, ‘Unless I ask you to come and do a special job, your general job is to go up and down this pole.’ Now, going continually up and down this pole exhausted the ghost very quickly, and then it settled down at the bottom of the pole to wait for the next order from this holy man.

Now mind is very like a ghost – it’s job is to propose and counter-propose - there is no end to

the variety of counter-

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propositions it can produce. This is the job of the mind, and that is how it keeps people busy.

And so people get tired, not only mentally but physically.

The pole is the Mantra. Order the mind there and it will settle down fairly quickly.

There is no reason for mind not to follow you; mind always follow a command. If you

command it to be peaceful, it will be peaceful. If your command is wavering then you are not

asking your mind to be peaceful.

M.A. One recognised this very well! His Holiness told us that we could not expect a long

period of the deep ‘dip’ because it takes time to add up two or three minutes of this ‘dip’. It

is the transition between these dips that we are finding is connected with movement. The

other thing is like coming this morning - one sits before His Holiness and when one starts to

meditate one feels it should be the best and the easiest, but I found that all the new

impressions of this beautiful temple, and a certain excitement at being here, made it even

more difficult to put the ghost aside. Could His Holiness speak about the length of the dip in

the half hour and the transition which I think is what people are noticing?

H.H. The excitement of seeing Him and sitting before Him after all brings the mind to

Him, (the mind is going towards Him), so under these circumstances even if the mind was

doing this thing it is forgivable and it is not bad, so if such things do arise we should ignore

and accept that it is not a bad factor of mental activity.

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As for the dip or depth which one has to find during a half hour’s meditation - it

may be a few minutes - but those few minutes are good enough to conduct a householder’s

life with great efficiency. The limitation of half an hour is such that any individual who has

to be busy in the family and for his work should be able to find half an hour twice a day, and

should be able to sit properly for half an hour. If right from the start he is made to sit longer,

he might get bored because he might not be doing the job properly, and then he will become

disinterested. So the time of half an hour is simply to induce Him to sit properly and quietly,

and within that half an hour it usually happens that people do go inside, and that is quite

enough.

Nevertheless, this rule is only for beginners. It does not establish a final limit. The

important factor is - “does one love meditation?” When you go and meet the Beloved, you

don’t look at your watch. Time consideration does not arise at all because you simply want to

be with the Beloved. When with one’s beloved the mind never goes back to the clock - that is

why time runs very fast when you are with your beloved. This is everybody’s experience.

Once you get the taste of having the dip inside in your Self by meditation then you

will forget to look at your watch. If that situation does arise do not put a limit to yourself. If

circumstances allow let it continue, and as far as the time inside is concerned, there is no

limit of any sort.

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In one of the diamond mines thousands of tons of stone are cut 300 feet below ground. It is brought up broken up into small pieces, processed, washed then spread out to dry. Then thousands of people are engaged in picking over these small stones and looking at them. All this process goes on and ultimately they may find about 100 grams of diamonds.

This also happens in Meditation - so you will have to give half an hour simply to get just a

few moments of contact with the Self. It is worthwhile because you do get a diamond - the

real force - the most valuable precious material of anybody’s life.

Or it is like diving to the bottom of the ocean - you bring things to the surface - they are not all precious. You examine what you have brought up - throw away the unnecessary things - and keep and collect anything valuable you bring up. It’s just like this - going into the ocean, not knowing what you are going to get - you may get many things, but out of them all you keep the best.

So in that way if few minutes of dip is available it is good, but there is no rule to limit it.

R.G. This seems to lead to the next question we have brought on Meditation -

Q. Why do some people, having once experienced great joy and peace from the

Meditation, sometimes have to go through an arid period which may last months, when it

becomes a duty, whereas before they went eagerly to meditate? They ask why should it not

continue to progress, why should it fall away, how could they avoid this or shorten this

period?

H.H. The experience of an arid period which does not allow easy Meditation is caused by

something in oneself. It is like a disease - when someone is suffering from a disease then he

goes to a doctor and takes some medicine. If the disease is recent

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then the period of taking medicine is usually also short. But if the disease is long standing

then the medication period will also have to be long. So if there is an arid period one should

conclude that there may be certain things within one’s own being which are presenting their

force against the meditations.

Now we do not need to get agitated because of this, if our Meditation does not

seem to work. We should make allowances for this and understand that we have to let this be

for some time. There will come a better time. There are two types of interference which

cause this arid period. One is internal, and the other is external. There are certain times

during the day when Rajas is strong, or Tamas is strong, and even if you have enthusiasm to

meditate, this influence of the physical world is going to have some claim upon you, and it

will disturb you either through Rajas or Tamas. So, be lenient with these influences, and let

them have a little claim, but do not lose faith in the meditation and think that because I am

not doing meditation properly I am either incapable of doing it or it’s of no use. Do not allow

either of these ideas to come in.

The internal interferences are also Rajasic or Tamasic and that goes with the being.

It is very difficult to define all these things but they will appear, so be generous with

yourself. Whatever you have achieved in life, and whatever the body has for you, accept it,

even if it is arid. Allow that period to pass and you will come back with Sattva again.

Everything in this universe is moving - nothing is static - and this modification is taking

place all the time. So, if there is a pleasant time,

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do not feel that this will remain always the same. It will be visited by some interval of arid

period. The same applies to the arid period as well - arid periods do not come to stay - they

are also subject to the same modification. They will be modified by something which is

agreeable, pleasurable and easy.

We were asked to put one more short question as we had already had one and a half

hours.

Q.(From Mrs. Swan who looks after Dr. Roles’s people in Australia). If a person who is ill,

and therefore on medical drugs (such as for multiple sclerosis), asks for Initiation - can they

have the Meditation? One such person who came to Mrs. Swan said she had been told

elsewhere that it might do more harm than good, but Mrs. Swan queried whether the

Meditation and Mantra could ever be harmful?

H.H. There can be no harm in giving such a person Initiation, but if the person cannot sit

properly, as everybody else has been asked to do, do not insist on it. Let the person do it as

easily as he can and he may be given Initiation.

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Allahabad AUDIENCE TWO 10th February 1982.

R.G. Yesterday His Holiness said that He hoped our Society would take a leading part in

helping to remove the ‘cloud of unknowing’ which is encircling the world. This leads me to

the question of language and translation that we spoke about on our last visit.

Dr. Roles now realises that the difficulties involved in the preparation of a glossary

of Sanskrit words are due to the fact that in English there are a variety of interpretations

which could keep changing their meaning with every Group and in every decade. Besides

this, there are certain Sanskrit words for which there is no single precise English equivalent -

words such as Antahkaran, Buddhi, Manas, Chitta, the Gunas, Maya etc.

Dr. Roles suggests, therefore, that the solution is twofold - that we continue to use a

short list of words in their Sanskrit form giving His Holiness’s explanation of them, while

translating other words by reference to the meaning given to them in H.H.’s stories and

expositions.

For example, the word Tyaga can be translated by ‘renunciation’ but in the sense of

giving up ‘I-ness’ (as explained by His Holiness in the story of Kach) as opposed to the

giving up of worldly possessions or withdrawal from the householder’s life. Thus, by

illustrating the meaning and constantly referring back to His Holiness’s own use of particular

words, the leader of the group could maintain the purity of the translation and the level of its

meaning.

These suggestions have been discussed with Mr. Jaiswal who is in complete

agreement with them, and Dr. Roles has now asked

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us to check with His Holiness that we may continue on these lines?

H.H. The way you have described how to handle the problem of language has His

Holiness’s agreement. It will be necessary to keep a family of Sanskrit words which,

because of the tradition of linguistics, cannot for the moment at least be replaced. The trouble

is that if they are replaced by English words the real weight of the meaning is lost, and it

becomes rather superficial, and the transmission of the idea is hindered.

For example, in the English language ‘mind’ has been used for all internal mental

activity, whereas in the Sanskrit tradition we have these four facets which are very different

from each other. Because this has been appreciated in this tradition, these four words have

evolved, so the division of the activity inside the brain is formulated in four different ways –

Manas, Buddhi, Chitta and Ahamkar. This gives the possibility of differentiating where it is

not possible to differentiate in the English terminology.

Another example is ‘Teacher’ and ‘Guru’. However hard we try etymologically the

idea conveyed by ‘Guru’, which has been evolved through the ages and the sort of meaning it

carries, would never be able to be conveyed by the word ‘Teacher’. This is because the word

‘teacher’ belongs to much more of a secular set up - you go to a school and learn something

about education, technology or other subjects, and after leaving school you retain hardly any

connection with the teacher, and there are many teachers who put you through your

schooling period. But a Guru is a very different affair - he is not a teacher in that sense

because he is Master,

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in the sense that he is going to lead the whole of the spiritual life of the individual, apart from

that which relates to physical needs. The etymology of the word Guru has two different

sounds involved - Ga and Ra. The meaning according to the grammatical form in the

Sanskrit language combines these two sounds to give the idea of a person who leads from

darkness to light. It would be very difficult to convey the same idea by the use of the word

teacher.

He would agree, therefore, that some of the Sanskrit words should be used until

proper English words are created through experience of the inner world, because these

involve the inner world unlike technical and other terms. Whenever necessary you can check

from what you have already received in the material from His Holiness so far. So, if you

keep to the text you already have, and convey the meaning accordingly, then there should be

no difficulty in future interpretations.

R.G. We thank His Holiness, and are sure Dr. Roles will be very interested in that reply.

M.A. Western science is taking more interest now in the different functions of the mind in

relation to consciousness, the awakening part of the mind, and recent discoveries about the

two hemispheres in which Dr. Roles has been very interested - they bring much more life to

the idea of ‘mind’ in the West now.

H.H. Another word which needs consideration is ‘heart’. The Sanskrit word is ‘Hrdaya’,

and traditionally the meaning which is attached to this word is very different from what one

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understands from the word ‘heart’, although etymologically both words come from the same

root. So if you use the English word you will get the meanings traditionally evolved with it -

you cannot get away from it.

Now in course of understanding spiritual knowledge it would be necessary to get to

the stream through which it has been evolved. Once you have gone through the stream and

achieved self-realisation then you will find it is possible that you will get the capacity to

create words which have come through your experience. Unless all these things are

experienced thoroughly, not just getting an idea of them, unless they become part of your

being, the creation of words will not materialise. So it is a tremendous job.

His Holiness will be very happy if the day comes when such a thing happens. But

He also warns that no quick solution is possible and one should be wary of replacing the

words, at least for some time.

His Holiness explains the difference between the English use of ‘heart’ and the

Sanskrit use of ‘Hrdaya’. Through ‘Hrdaya’ we understand that Chitta and Manas are

connected with ‘Hrdaya’ whereas they also work with the brain (Mustishka) where Ahamkar

and Buddhi are firmly established. Buddhi also works with the ‘Hrdaya’ - that is why you get

the rational approach in two different ways etc. justice or mercy. Because it is attached to

‘Hrdaya’ you find the compassionate approach of reason. These are the concepts which you

have to go through again and again, and when in the future someone has come to that sort of

realisation, then word creation will be possible.

Hrdaya is also the seat of love, and because it has the basis of love it puts love into

the thinking process. That is how the

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concept of ‘mercy’ arises. Although intellectually, logically just systems can be evolved, yet

they sometimes become very dry and clear cut, and do not consider the oneness of the

universe, which is only possible through love. So the introduction of love is very necessary.

This concept can only be considered through the intellect if you understand what heart really

means, an understood by Sanskrit ‘Hrdaya’.

R.G. Still staying with the question of the role of our Society in the world, we would like

to ask His Holiness if He could tell us more about Sanatan Dharma being the root religion of

all religions? We ask because we have been taught that there are different ways or religions

for people of different types, and it seems possible that part of the work facing our Society

might be to alert people to the necessity of finding their own path to spiritual development,

whatever form that might take. Would His Holiness comment on the possibility of our

Society developing work for the general public along these lines? For example, we are at the

moment in touch with a few leading scientists and artists of international significance who

are convinced of the actuality of a universal consciousness. We should like to provide them

with material to encourage their work, and the trend in outlook which might develop in the

sciences and the arts, as a result of their influence. Though this might not lead directly to the

practice of Meditation it might well help to influence the world to seek for spiritual values

and clear away the ‘cloud’ that His Holiness spoke about?

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H.H. As regards the first aspect of your question and observation, people associate

Sanatan Dharma with Hindus, but this is not true. Sanatan Dharma is not bound by space and

time, or division of the human race at all. It is for the human race as a whole. Other religions,

and development of different cultures, arise from the talents expressed in a certain place, and

then the culture evolves from that talent. Some individual arises in a place who has a vision,

and through that vision he produces a philosophy, ideas, or a religion, and a culture arises on

those basic factors established by that particular individual.

For instance Christianity, although basically coming from the Jewish culture, was

reinterpreted by the ideas given by Christ - this was how the religion arose.

You will not find anything of this sort in Sanatan Dharma - it was not created or

evolved by human mind as it is known today. There is no reference to any individual in

Sanatan Dharma. One does find in India that there are various ways where principles of

Sanatan Dharma have been applied, but Hinduism is not a religion in the sense we

understand Christianity. It is a conglomeration of many different types of approach, and in

fact we do have quite a number of religions which you could equate with Christianity, but all

these religions are supported on the basic idea of Sanatan Dharma.

There are concepts which one finds in Hinduism and divisions of Hinduism,

Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism or any other religion or culture, and you will find all

these ideas there in, Sanatan Dharma, but they have been developed in different ways.

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The basic concept of Sanatan Dharma has been summed up in the ten principles:-

Dhrh, Kshama, Dama, Asteya, Shaucha, Indriya Nigraha, Dhee, Vidya, Satya, and Akrodha.

1. Dhrh is having confidence and patience. If there is no confidence, there can’t be

patience. These two are united in the word ‘Dhrh’. So, Sanatan Dharma wants individuals to

develop Dhrh.

2. Kshama means having consideration, and giving pardon and being tolerant of all the

difficulties and awkwardness and faults of others, so that you provide them with space, and

in due course when they see there is no reaction they may learn something better which you

hold very dear to yourself.

3. Dama means the senses are very fast, and if the mind is turbulent, receiving

impressions from different sources, it is quite probable that sensual hunger and thirst may be

inflamed because of the beautiful things being seen in the world. So every individual needs

to have some control over their sensory appetite and expressions.

4. Asteya means you should take only what you deserve and consider everyone else

equally deserving. So, do not take anything extra - all that you accumulate extra is theft. You

steal from the universe and you deprive other people. So do not keep anything more than

what should be equally available to everybody else.

5. Shaucha is the cleanliness of body and mind. One has to learn to clean one’s body,

one’s mind and one’s heart, and for that one has to find a System through a Teacher.

6. Indriya Nigraha. There is a natural course of use of the senses, and those can be

regulated. The rules are prescribed in every tradition, and from these one has to learn how to

use one’s senses within those limitations. One does not curb the use of the senses but

regulates them. The curbing of excessive use will then take place naturally.

7. Dhee means intellect or Buddhi, reason, and one is expected to use one’s intellect

and find out the causes of things and use them as necessity may arise.

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8. Vidya. One has to acquire the knowledge which is made manifest as far as Sanatan

Dharma in concerned through the Vedas, which are supposed to be not man made. Who

made them nobody knows, so one has to acquire the knowledge of the scriptures.

9. Satya is the Truth. There is only one truth about an aspect, there can’t be two

different truths about the same subject. Everybody in the world is hankering for truth, but it

happens that people want their particular brand of truth. They are not eager or ready to accept

that there can be something different. One may be right or wrong, and then rationalisation is

very necessary. Even thieves, robbers and evil men, they also wish that the people with

whom they co-operate should speak the truth so that they do not get caught by the police. So

truth is important not only for people in highly developed and cultured society, but the need

is everywhere, but somehow people like to serve their own ends through their own concept

of truth.

10. Akrodha which means one should never get agitated under any circumstances.

There may be occasions when a hard line is very necessary, usually for the sake of education,

but taking a hard line is not necessarily getting agitated. One can tell the difference between

righteous agitation or wrong agitation. If one is wrongly agitated one cannot take right

action, so this has to be avoided.

Considering all these ten factors one can see that they do not only apply to the

Hindus of India. They are for all human beings. That is how basic religion, or the concept of

human religion, is Sanatan Dharma. The meaning of Sanatan is that the root of this concept,

or idea, or religion has no end or beginning - it was not started by any particular man, and it

will never end whatever happens. As long as human beings, exist these concepts will prevail.

There is a Sanskrit shloka which says that if one learns to understand that one is part

of this universe, and one has equal status with everyone else, then give to others what you

would like given to you - what pleases you should be made available for the pleasure of

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others - or ‘do as you would be done by’. This sums up the concept of Sanatan Dharma - it is

not a religion, it is a concept for humanity.

The second part of the question was concerning scientists and artists who already

enjoy a fairly important position in society and are influential people. His Holiness recalls

one occasion when Dr. Roles himself asked the question as to what divides the spiritual

world from the world of the scientists. The scientific world works on tangible matter, and

their approach is empirical; they want verification of every aspect of their knowledge. The

limit of their verification is empirical - the material, physical world.

So far they have achieved great heights in their work and have made available much

greater physical ease and comfort and made many discoveries. But their search comes to a

stage where they cannot analyse any further. Nowadays fortunately one finds that even the

scientists agree that there may be something beyond what they have seen and what they can

verify, which they do not know. From there arises agnosticism - ‘there may be something

beyond which we do not know, so we don’t want to talk about it’.

Soon these people will feel the necessity that if something is not known, why

should it not be known? and this will impel them to come to organisations like yours. There

is the opportunity to give them the knowledge that there is another world which is beyond

verifiable work on the empirical level. All that we can find and experience is governed by the

physical world, but the other world which impels and inspires and commands, orders,

appreciates and

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creates concepts is something very different, and there is no empirical verification possible

about that. All that we see is the expression of the power of consciousness - when you see the

actual expression, you can verify, but there is no possibility of verifying that which is

expressing itself.

That which expresses itself through all these manifest forms always remains the

same - it does not change at all. and because it does not change, there isn’t any aspect you

can put your finger on, because it involves all creation for all time - it’s brilliance is all that is

available - and it is very steady. If you get the knowledge of this consciousness, then you

become steady yourself and you begin to enjoy the world without feeling lack of anything in

yourself. Once you have got this steadiness then you will be able to evolve a reasonable or

rational approach to your life which is of benefit to you and everybody else in the universe,

which means your ‘Viveka’ will arise.

Whenever people think that they do not know something, they are simply

expressing their knowledge that there is something which they have not yet been able to put

into words. So even ignorance is a part of knowledge which has not been bound into

manifest form. This un-manifested, that is the realm of consciousness; and the message must

be given to these people who do seem to be coming to you for guidance - keep on helping

them as much as possible and then we’ll wait for the result, whatever comes.

If individuals have to communicate with or visit each other and live in different

places, in villages people use their feet - they walk around; if they have to go a bit farther

they can use other means - cycles or horses. For longer journeys you can use a car, or for still

longer

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distances a train. If you want to go still further – 8 or 10,000 miles, you take an aeroplane.

Science has now provided us with another concept of travel - by rocket, so one can go from

one planet to another planet as well. The verified results of their landing on the moon, and

visits to other planets are already available, and there is no doubt science can achieve all

these things.

But there is another world to which you cannot go by horse, by bike, by car, by

train, by plane or even by rocket, and that world is within the human mind itself. How do you

find the real communication in the mind? What are the ways and means you use?

The inner world is very extensive indeed, and if communications within are not

correct people can go mad, and there is no scientific solution to it. There is only the spiritual

solution, the philosophy, the logic, the reason. Unless you come to these things you will not

be able to find proper communication. The world, which in truth is very little as far as

physical things are concerned, is in fact enormous. The spiritual world is in fact one - it is not

in each single head - but one whole head which is the universe. To communicate one needs

spiritual knowledge, and this spiritual knowledge should be given to scientists.

One of the difficulties you will face is that to find the means of communication in

the inner world you will have to come to some steadiness of your mind. Scientists, as they

are, are not very steady in their minds; they are always running around in different directions.

You will find that introduction of meditation would be one of the necessary aspects of

keeping them under control, or of giving them the proper material. This will come in future.

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M.A. It is very exciting because people like Professor Hoyle, the astronomer, says he has

spent his whole life looking into the materialistic universe and is now going to spend the

remainder looking for the intelligence behind it; and Professor Schaeffer has said that he has

found that everything is living in the universe, and he has spoken of the unlimited power and

energy in the universe and spoken of love as a means of reaching this.

H.H. Although these two scientists have come to the conclusion that intelligence and love

are behind this creation, they have yet to find what it is that uses the intelligence and what it

is that expresses everything through love. That which loves and that which is intelligent has

to be found. These gentlemen should be led to it!

R.G. May I ask one more question about the extensive inner world that His Holiness

talked about, because in trying to think about the mystery of the individuality of each person

who has lived, has ever lived, or will live, unified by the wholeness of the Atman, could it be

said that each of the three worlds or levels of physical, subtle and causal has both an

individual and a universal aspect?

H.H. The difference between an individual and the universe in only one of magnitude -

otherwise materially there is no difference. The individual is the expression of the universal.

Now we know that the individual is made of the three bodies – physical, subtle and causal.

Similarly, the whole universal being is also made of the same three bodies. The expression of

these three bodies has been given some time ago as the nine elements of this creation.

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These are Prithivi, Jala, Agni, Vayu, Akasha, Mahat Tattva, Prakriti and Avyakta, then the

Absolute Himself. So from the desire of the Absolute to express itself comes the Avyakta –

unmanifest, something to be expressed. That something comes into Prakriti, which is

three-fold – Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. The law of three starts with Prakriti, and from that

everything is governed by this law of three. From there arises the concept of these three

bodies.

We find from the make up of the individual that as he is made up of all these

elements which are experienced in the world – earth, water, fire and air and space - we are all

a conglomeration and arrangement of these elements. The universe also is made out of all

these things. From Tanmatra arise all these elements. Tanmatra is the subtler state of the

physical form, so from the subtle comes the physical, and from the causal (which is Avyakta)

comes the subtle. From Avyakta is Prakriti and Mahat Tattva, and then from these two come

all the manifest and physical forms. From His Holiness’s standpoint space is itself a physical

form, although we cannot indicate it by any other form, but just space as one.

If we want to compare the universal world, or causal world, with things such as Manas,

Buddhi, Chitta and Ahamkar which we find in each individual, the concept of the Gods have

been evolved in such a way that they represent all these facets which one sees in the

individual. So the god Chandra represents Manas, which in H.H.’s tradition is Moon (not

necessarily the physical moon but a concept of moon). The God Rudra represents the

Ahamkar, and Vasodeva is Chitta, and Brahma is supposed to be Buddhi. So, all these

concepts of Gods are the embodiment of the causal world - exactly as you find the individual

and physical world. Now, although we do find so many individuals on this earth,

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also solar systems, galaxies, then to Brahman - one form, governed by one Brahman - there

are thousands of such Brahmans which have their own total cosmos, own universe, and they

are all governed differently. Nonetheless, the laws are the same. But the Absolute has no end

- there is no beginning - so we cannot describe where it came from, or where it will go.

So the Causal world is as real as the individual. The only question is how to connect

the causal world with the individual world.

F.R. Dr. Roles sent this question - How can the householder control the pranas before

and during the death of the body. Has His Holiness any hints?

H.H. In reply to Dr. Roles’s question about prana and control near the end, prana is the

physical aspect of our existence - it is totally physical; it is a refined aspect of air. The

moment an individual departs for the next world, the prana becomes universal; it gets merged

into whatever prana is holding this creation. It will merge itself, and there is nothing one can

do about it. It is of no consequence to control it or modify it at the time of departure. One

should just let it be as it is and it will behave of its own natural accord.

But what is necessary to understand - because there is some enquiry behind the

question - is that the carrier of this individual into the next life is the subtle body; that alone

goes. The movement of pranas, or the motions through which a prana can go, is controlled by

Manas and at the time of death the only important thing which does affect the next life is the

ideas which one entertains

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at that time. So whatever you have in your mind at that time will be the prototype of your

next life.

If one wants to see that something is regulated, then clarity of mind and purity of

thought is all that one wants to maintain at that time. One has to prepare, so that one is

always possessed by pure thoughts, truth and the concept of the Absolute, and has no desire

or attachment to anything of physical or intellectual world of any sort. That is the thing one

should try to remember.

If one has prepared oneself to have that sort of clarity and purity of one’s thoughts,

then that will form the next body. The rule is that when a person dies, and this in mentioned

also in the Gita, whatever thought you entertain at the time of death will make your next

body. It would be very difficult to capture the good thoughts when one is about to die if one

has not trained oneself to keep good thoughts all the time.

The last moment may be out of one’s control so one has to prepare slowly step by step

to have pure thoughts, and the proof of prana being physical is this - that when one is asleep,

even then it is working. There is no control over the prana at all; it is the mechanical aspect

of our life, and we should ignore it in considering the next world.

M.A. After yesterday’s wonderful help over the meditation we discussed it, and both felt

the key was the idea that love of the meditation solves any problems we asked about. But, as

we have the chance to ask His Holiness direct, we would just like to confirm how to look

after people. We understand His Holiness advises that the one who initiates should see the

new meditator a week after initiation and be available for occasional guidance.

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We would like to have His Holiness’s advice on how frequently should help be given by

other people in the early stages and then later on. For ‘old hands’ who have been meditating

for some years, should they seek advice occasionally on their meditation or do they become

their own guide?

H.H. Checking is very essential, particularly in the early stages. What one has to check is

that the individual must become totally united and still. There should be no movement of any

sort; this is what one has to check because if there is any movement, that will be the

expression of the movement of the mind, and means that meditation is not being done. It is

wandering here and there.

If the individual takes to the Mantra and goes deeper then there is no such question,

but if he makes any movement and does not sit properly then that has to be checked. If there

are cases where it is very difficult for individuals to sit properly and do any meditation at all,

then His Holiness has previously suggested that some inducement of spoken sound, music,

shloka or some such thing can be applied, so that their mind can be brought together and

away at least from external sources. But if the mind is not settled, which reflects as some sort

of movement in the body, then care of mind is also very necessary. The individual must be

helped so that his mind does become still through the application of the True Knowledge in

which you are almost self sufficient.

Sometimes it is found that having started to meditate and being fairly tired

physically the forces provided by the Mantra are used physically, and the meditator goes into

a very peaceful sleep at that time. If you see that you should very gently

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touch their head or shoulder, so that they come back to awareness again in order that they

can meditate in Sattva and not Tamas.

J. I have given your thanks on behalf of Dr. Roles for all H.H. has given you.

H.H. He is very pleased to see you both and with the trouble you have taken to travel this

long distance, and He is very satisfied with the report you bring, and your questions. He

wishes you well, and gives his blessings. As He said earlier, you have plenty of material -

keep looking into it and you will find most of the answers. Nevertheless if there is any point

needing clarification you are very welcome to get in contact with Him either by letter or in

person.

This is a special message to Dr. Roles. In spirit there is no division between Dr.

Roles and His Holiness. Otherwise, mentally and physically, His Holiness is always

available. He sends his blessing to Dr. Roles for his good health and commands him to keep

complete charge of the Society as long as his body is available for it, but he should delegate

most of the activities for other people to manage, and only keep general guidance of the

Society so that the Society runs peacefully, and also people get experience. Spiritually there

will never be any question of division - He is always with Dr. Roles and he should live as

long as nature allows, very peacefully in bliss, and just keep on guiding the destiny of the

Society and give chance to those who are following.

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