AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION COUNCIL MEETING2011cv00608/62744/21/5.pdf · AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION...

AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION COUNCIL MEETING

FRIDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2011

RECOMMENDATION REGARDING APPLICATION FOR PROVISIONAL ABA APPROVAL LINCOLN MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY

ABA112

Lincoln Memorial University Duncan School of Law v. American Bar Association (TV1) Doc. 21 Att. 5

Dockets.Justia.com

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/tennessee/tnedce/3:2011cv00608/62744/

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/tennessee/tnedce/3:2011cv00608/62744/21/5.html

http://dockets.justia.com/

Lincoln Memorial University December 2, 2011 NRC File # 9278-49

1 BEFORE:

2

3 CHAIR: Dean John O'Brien

4 VICE-CHAIR: Kent Syverud

5 MEMBERS: Jane Aiken

6 Honorable Rebecca White Berch

7 Diane F. Bosse, Esq.

8 General Leo A. Brooks

9 Paulette Brown

10 Edwin J. Butterfoss

11 Michael J. Davis

12 Honorable Christine M. Durham

13 Tracy Allen Giles, Esq.

14 Chuck Goldner

15 Joan S. Howland

16 Dennis O. Lynch

17 Honorable Ruth V. McGregor

18 Gregory G. Murphy

19 Honorable Solomon Oliver, Jr.

20 Maureen O'Rourke

21 Raymond C. Pierce

22 Erika Robinson

23 Pauline A. Schneider, Esq.

24 Edward N. Tucker

25 Honorable Charles R. Wilson

ABA113


1 ASSOCIATE

2 GENERAL COUNSEL: Stephanie Giggets, Esq.

3 CONSULTANT: Hulett H. Askew

4 ASSISTANT CONSULTANT: Scott Norberg

5 EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT: Cathy A. Schrage

6

7

8 LINCOLN MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY REPRESENTATIVES

9 APPEARING:

10 Dean Sydney Beckman

11 Dr. James Dawson

12 Dr. Clayton Hess

13 Associate Dean Gordon Russell

14 Associate dean April Meldrum

15 Associate Dean Terence Cook

16 Professor Jonathan Marcantel

17 Professor Melanie Reid

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ABA114


1

2

3

4

5

6

7 AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION

8 COUNCIL MEETING

9 FRIDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2011

10

11

12 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS of the American

13 Bar Association Council Meeting held at the Ritz-

14 Carlton San Juan, 6961 Avenue of the Governors, Isla

15 Verda, Carolina, Puerto Rico, before Valerie Allard,

16 a Certified Court Reporter.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ABA115


1 AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION

2 COUNCIL MEETING

3 FRIDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2011

4 11:15 A.M.

5

6 DEAN O'BRIEN: If I could begin by

7 apologizing to you and your colleagues for being

8 late. We didn't anticipate the length of the

9 meeting. You're handing out some material. Is this

10 material that we've been previously given?

11 DEAN BECKMAN: Yes; Chairman O'Brien,

12 what's being handed out are two separate documents.

13 Document one is a copy of the brief that was

14 submitted electronically to each member through Mr.

15 Askew. The second documents are color copies of

16 photographs that were presented into evidence at the

17 Committee Hearing in large form. Those were also

18 tendered through Mr. Askew electronically and those

19 are copies of those.

20 DEAN O'BRIEN: I appreciate that. And so I

21 was trying to determine if there was new information

22 in the packet?

23 DEAN BECKMAN: There's not, sir.

24 DEAN O'BRIEN: I appreciate it.

25 As you know, this is a hearing to consider

ABA116


1 the application of the Duncan School of Law at

2 Lincoln Memorial University Provisional Approval.

3 The Accreditation Committee considered this matter

4 at its September meeting and have recommended that

5 the Council not grant approval.

6 Dean, if you would begin by introducing

7 yourself and your colleagues and then we'll go

8 around and do the same thing before we get started.

9 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure, I'd be happy to.

10 Members of the Council, to my far right is

11 Dr. Clayton Hess. He is Lincoln Memorial

12 University's Vice President for Academic Affairs; to

13 his immediate left and my right is Dr. Jim Dawson.

14 He's the President of Lincoln Memorial University.

15 I'm Syd Beckman. I'm the Dean of the Duncan School

16 of Law. To my left is Jonathan Marcantel,

17 Professor, who's been involved with us since with

18 very beginning; to his left my Associate Dean for

19 Academics, April Meldrum; to her left, Terence Cook,

20 who is our Director of Admissions; and Professor

21 Melanie Reid, a professor at Duncan School of Law.

22 DEAN O'BRIEN: Welcome one and all. Chief

23 Justice?

24 CHIEF JUSTICE BERCH: I'm Rebecca Berch,

25 Chief Justice of the Arizona Supreme Court.

ABA117


1 ASSOCIATE DEAN BUTTERFOSS: I'm Ed

2 Butterfoss. I'm on the faculty at Hamlin University

3 School of Law.

4 THE HONORABLE WILSON: I'm Charles Wilson.

5 I'm a judge on the United States Court of Appeals

6 for the 11th Circuit.

7 ASSOCIATE DEAN HOWLAND: Joan Howland; I'm

8 on the faculty of the University of Minnesota Law

9 School.

10 THE HONORABLE OLIVER: I'm Solomon Oliver,

11 Chief Judge of the United States District Court in

12 the Northern District of Ohio.

13 MS. ROBINSON: Erika Robinson, Law Student

14 Division Representative, University of South

15 Carolina.

16 MS. BROWN: Paulette Brown, private

17 practice, representative to the Council, in Madison,

18 New Jersey.

19 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: Ruth McGregor,

20 retired, House of Delegates, Phoenix, Arizona.

21 PROFESSOR DAVIS: Mike Davis, law faculty

22 member of the University of Kansas.

23 MR. MURPHY: Greg Murphy; I'm a practicing

24 lawyer.

25 MS. SCHRAGE: Cathy Schrage, ABA staff.

ABA118


1 MR. GOLDNER: Chuck Goldner; I'm Vice

2 Chair of the Accreditation Committee.

3 MS. BOSSE: Chair of the Accreditation

4 Committee.

5 DEAN O'BRIEN: John O'Brien, Chair of the

6 Council, Dean at New England Law/Boston.

7 MR. ASKEW: Bucky Askew, ABA staff.

8 DEAN SYVERUD: Kent Syverud, Vice Chair of

9 the Council and Dean at Washington University School

10 of Law, Saint Louis.

11 MR. NORBERG: Scott Norberg, ABA staff.

12 MS. GIGGETS: Stephanie Giggets, Associate

13 General Counsel at the ABA.

14 MR. TUCKER: Ed Tucker; I'm a public

15 member. I'm an accountant from Baltimore.

16 MR. BROOKS: I'm Leo Brooks and I'm a

17 public member.

18 THE HONORABLE DURHAM: Christine Durham,

19 the Chief Justice in the state of Utah and past

20 Chair of the Council.

21 PROFESSOR AIKEN: Jane Aiken, Georgetown

22 Law School.

23 MS. SCHNEIDER: Pauline Schneider, private

24 practice, near Washington, DC, and Section Delegate

25 to the House.

ABA119


1 DEAN PIERCE: Raymond Pierce, Dean of the

2 law school at North Carolina Central.

3 DEAN LYNCH: Dennis Lynch, Dean at the

4 University of Miami Law School.

5 MR. GILES: Tracy Giles, in private

6 practice in Virginia.

7 DEAN O'ROURKE: Maureen O'Rourke, Dean at

8 Boston University.

9 MR. BAMBRINK: Carl Bambrink, ABA staff.

10 DEAN O'BRIEN: We should mention also at

11 the start that the acoustics in here are quite poor;

12 so when you're speaking, if you would all just keep

13 that in mind and help us out by speaking up.

14 Dean, I believe the staff has informed you

15 that you are allotted 15 minutes between closing and

16 opening, and you can allocate that in any way you

17 wish. Ms. Schrage is our timekeeper and you're

18 welcome to begin.

19 DEAN BECKMAN: I'll reserve any remaining

20 time for the end, and Dr. Dawson will begin our

21 comments.

22 DR. DAWSON: Thank you. Lincoln Memorial

23 University was established in 1897 as a living

24 memorial to Abraham Lincoln. It has a distinguished

25 history of providing education, including graduate

ABA120


1 and professional programs, to one of the most

2 disadvantaged socioeconomic populations in America,

3 Southern Appalachia.

4 We are proud of our worthy mission and the

5 ability we have demonstrated to deliver this quality

6 experience while ensuring fiscal stability. Our

7 budget surpluses are documented in the audit reports

8 provided for you. The University's graduate and

9 professional students consistently score in the top

10 core title of their peers on board examinations in

11 their respective fields.

12 As President, I insist that our

13 professional schools are successful because we plan

14 them meticulously and provide for them the financial

15 support necessary to achieve their goals. LMU and

16 the law school are -- in the words of the ABA Site

17 Team -- "At the forefront of outcome based and

18 assessment driven legal education using methods of

19 evaluation that, in the near future, will likely

20 become an integral part of ABA standards."

21 As President, I can unequivocally assure

22 you that the Duncan School of Law is, and will

23 forever be, operated with the academic rigor and

24 financial support required to meet and exceed the

25 highest standards. These facts have been verified

ABA121


1 by the Southern Associations of Schools Commission

2 on Colleges, the Tennessee Board of Law Examiners,

3 not to mention your own Site evaluation team.

4 DEAN BECKMAN: Mr. Chairman and Members of

5 the Council, I hereby tender Exhibits 1 through 18

6 for the record. They're down here with the court

7 reporter. They were all previously provided to the

8 ABA, all former documents.

9 From the moment that LMU considered

10 opening a law school to serve the people of

11 Appalachia, every decision has been focused on

12 two things: Ensuring a quality legal education by

13 exceeding compliance with ABA standards, and serving

14 our institutional mission.

15 The Accreditation Committee's

16 recommendation against provisional approval is

17 premised on four conclusions in their corresponding

18 findings of fact. Those conclusions in the

19 corresponding findings of fact, however, lack

20 factual support in the record and are inconsistent

21 with findings by experienced Site teams from both

22 the ABA and the Southern Association of Colleges and

23 Schools, thus the conclusions and their supporting

24 findings of fact are not entitled to deference.

25 Furthermore, an objective review of the

ABA122


1 record indicates the law school has proven that it

2 is in substantial compliance with each of the

3 standards with a reliable plan for bringing the

4 school into full compliance within three years.

5 As to Conclusion A, the Committee found we

6 are not in compliance with Standard 203, related to

7 strategic planning and assessment. This conclusion

8 is premised on six factual findings encompassing two

9 primary areas of concern. First, the Committee

10 found that we did not review the feasibility study,

11 and, second, they found that we have not addressed

12 diminished LSAT takers and decreased enrollment

13 projections in our strategic planning.

14 As to the first finding, the phrase

15 "feasibility study" does not exist in Standard 203;

16 rather the phrase only exists in Rule and Procedure

17 4B, thus requirements regarding feasibility studies

18 must exist, if at all, in Rule 4B. The rule

19 requires that a school produce one feasibility

20 study. That requirement is consistent with the

21 purpose of a feasibility study -- to ensure that an

22 institution has considered all factors pertinent to

23 its consideration of opening a law school. These

24 are found in Exhibits 10 and 11. This evidence is

25 sufficient to demonstrate the school's compliance

ABA123


1 with Rule 4B.

2 In terms of the second factual finding

3 that the school failed to sufficiently demonstrate a

4 strategic planning process because we did not

5 account for reduced LSAT takers and thus reduced

6 admissions. The findings, even if true, are

7 irrelevant to whether we comply with Rule 203.

8 Furthermore -- however the findings are not

9 supported by the record.

10 First, the Committee's conclusion is

11 inconsistent with the two findings of two other

12 accrediting bodies, one of which is recognized the

13 U.S. Department of Education; second, the conclusion

14 is inconsistent with the findings of ABA Site Team

15 which found the DSOL has, "Regularly identified

16 specific goals for improving itself, identified the

17 means to achieve these goals, assesses the success

18 in realizing these goals by assessing its activities

19 daily, weekly, monthly, and annually, and uses this

20 information to re-examine and revise its means and

21 goals," and further found, "a culture of assessment

22 at every level -- indeed, every aspect of the law

23 school operation."

24 Furthermore, our burden to demonstrate

25 compliance with 203 is not as broad as the Committee

ABA124


1 suggests; that is, the Committee believes the DSOL

2 was charged with assessing the number of LSAT

3 takers, presumably repeatedly, to demonstrate an

4 effective strategic planning process. No such

5 requirement exists either explicitly or implicitly

6 within the language of the Standard; rather, the

7 Standard requires that the school demonstrate it

8 identifies established goals, identifies means to

9 achieve those goals, and periodically assesses and

10 evaluates those goals. We have met this burden.

11 We have completed two strategic plans.

12 Evidence of our strategic planning can be found in

13 Exhibit 3 at Tab 73 and Exhibit 9, Tab 35. Each of

14 our strategic plans delineates specific goals, means

15 to achieve those goals, an assessment of the goals,

16 and a process for remediating unrealized goals.

17 More specifically, each strategic plan includes

18 goals related to admissions and marketing to

19 increase the school's admission profile.

20 Furthermore, in addition to the strategic

21 plans themselves, we have presented evidence that

22 proves we have continued to assess enrollment

23 figures in our strategic planning process --

24 specifically referring to the budget in Exhibit 9,

25 Tabs 7 and 8. The evidence indicates that LMU and

ABA125


1 DSOL have continued to adjust the law school's

2 enrollment and revenue projections in a timely and

3 effective manner; thus, even assuming Standard 203

4 requires us to prove we have addressed decreased

5 enrollment and admissions in our strategic planning

6 process, we have introduced sufficient evidence to

7 demonstrate that we have complied with the Standard.

8 As to Conclusion B, the Committee

9 concluded that we do not comply with Standard 303 or

10 Interpretation 303-3 based on the findings that the

11 director of academic success lacks experience, the

12 entrance credentials of entering cohorts have

13 declined, and the Academic Standards Committee

14 permitted the readmission of six previously

15 disqualified students.

16 The first finding implies that the

17 director of academic success is unqualified because

18 he lacks experience as a director. While he lacks

19 experience as a director, the record is replete with

20 evidence that he is qualified, including clerking

21 for a judge, four years of teaching, a juris doctor,

22 and a master of library science.

23 Interpretation 303 requires that a school

24 possess sufficient academic support services to

25 provide each student an opportunity to succeed. The

ABA126


1 inquiry is whether the school provides necessary

2 services. In that regard, we have introduced

3 sufficient evidence into the record to demonstrate

4 the ASP program is extensive in its breadth, focused

5 on individual students, and tied to doctrinal

6 courses to ensure maximum efficacy.

7 For instance, as reflected in Exhibit 1,

8 Tab 7, the school provides mandatory ASP components

9 for all students, including a prematriculation

10 Bridge Week and a three-hour per week ASP class in

11 their first semester. Students thereafter are

12 required to participate in formal ASP courses free

13 of charge, if their grades identify them as at-risk.

14 Academic tutoring and counseling are also

15 individually offered to any student at any time.

16 As to the second finding, that the

17 entrance credentials of entering cohorts has

18 declined; as noted in the brief, that finding is

19 inaccurate. However, even if accepted without more,

20 that evidence is irrelevant to whether we comply

21 with Standard 303. Standard 303 says nothing about

22 entrance credentials; to the contrary, the Standard

23 addresses what a school must do to support students

24 once they're admitted, thus, the Committee's

25 reliance on entrance credentials as a means of

ABA127


1 supporting Conclusion B is without merit. In that

2 regard, as stated a moment ago, we have a formal,

3 comprehensive tailored ASP program.

4 Furthermore, we have a aggressive academic

5 standards and attrition policies. Specifically, the

6 evidence in Exhibit 1 at Tab 7, indicates that DSOL

7 reviews each student's performance each semester to

8 determine whether each student is performing in

9 accordance with our academic standards.

10 In the event a student's cumulative GPA

11 declines below 1.25, the student is automatically

12 withdrawn. In the event the student's cumulative

13 GPA is above a 1.25 but below a 2.0, the student is

14 placed on academic probation. These standards,

15 combined with our strong mandatory curve, are

16 sufficient to demonstrate the law school does not

17 inculcate false hope or continue the enrollment of

18 students who are not capable of succeeding.

19 As to the final finding under Conclusion

20 B, that we have admitted six previously disqualified

21 students. The factual finding does not support the

22 Committee's conclusion, that is, the mere fact that

23 the DSOL has readmitted six students does not,

24 without more, provide any basis for assessing

25 whether the DSOL has sound academic standards or

ABA128


1 continues the enrollment of students who are

2 incapable of successfully completing the academic

3 program; rather, the analysis should be whether the

4 school has appropriate readmission policies and

5 applied those policies.

6 In that regard, our readmission policies

7 are consistent with the readmission policies of

8 other ABA accredited schools. Specifically,

9 determinations are made by the Academic Standards

10 Committee, a committee composed of faculty members.

11 To readmit a student the Committee must find, one,

12 extraordinary circumstances contributed to the

13 student's inability to meet the academic

14 requirements of the school.

15 Two, the student's failure to meet the

16 standards for continuing his or her studies does not

17 indicate a lack of capacity to complete the program

18 of study and, in fact, the student possesses that

19 capacity.

20 And, three, the circumstance resulting in

21 a student's disqualification have been remedied or

22 no longer exist. In each of the six readmission's

23 cases, the Academic Standards Committee made

24 positive specific findings of fact for each student

25 regarding each of those criteria.

ABA129


1 As to Conclusion C, the Committee found

2 the school does not comply with Standard 501,

3 asserting it does not maintain sound admissions

4 policies. However, this conclusion is based

5 exclusively upon the academic credentials and

6 standardized test scores of matriculants and the

7 purported relationship between LSAT scores and

8 academically dismissed students.

9 The Committee's criticism implies that we

10 should not have admitted students reporting LSAT

11 scores at or below 148. While it is true that most

12 of our academically dismissed students had an LSAT

13 at or below 148; it's also true, as documents

14 submitted to the Committee during our hearing

15 indicate, that the vast majority of students

16 admitted with an LSAT score below 148 are in good

17 academic standing and have evinced the capacity to

18 succeed in law school.

19 Additionally, as referenced in Exhibit 1,

20 pages 195 through 196, a correlation report

21 generated by the LSAC, reveals that none of the

22 students academically dismissed had a predicted

23 first-year average of below a 2.0. Furthermore, as

24 recommended by the LSAC cautionary policies, LSAT

25 scores are only one factor in our admission process.

ABA130


1 In that vein we consider, and by federal

2 regulation are permitted to consider our mission

3 when reviewing applicants. We also review a host of

4 other factors. Nevertheless, if the Committee and

5 this Council believe that LSAT scores below 148 are

6 appropriate benchmark, there are eight fully

7 accredited law schools with scores that do not meet

8 that benchmark and, in some cases, are well below

9 148. Clearly, it would be arbitrary and capricious

10 for this Council to adopt the Committee's

11 recommendation that the DSOL is not in compliance

12 based upon LSAT scores. Finally, a strict LSAT

13 cutoff score would thwart our mission.

14 Regarding Conclusion D, the Committee

15 found that we are not in compliance with Standard

16 511, asserting we have failed to demonstrate that

17 our Career Services Department is effective in

18 assisting students to make sound career choices;

19 this finding is without merit.

20 In Finding 67, the Committee found that

21 our Career Services Department conducts programs to

22 improve student interviewing and application skills,

23 post employment openings, and is accessible to

24 students. In addition to these functions, the ABA

25 Site Team found that Career Services attended

ABA131


1 various legal functions, obtained student

2 internships -- including two Tennessee Supreme

3 Supreme Court internships -- and posted job

4 opportunities.

5 Finally, and perhaps most convincingly,

6 the ABA Site Team found, "The large contingent of

7 students that attended the scheduled Team Meeting

8 with students was uniformly positive in its

9 assessment of the adequacy of such student

10 services." Nevertheless, it appears the Committee

11 believes that we do not comply with Standard 511 on

12 the basis that, at that time, we only employed one

13 person in our Career Services Department. That

14 position is not supported in the record.

15 First, as the Committee found in Finding

16 67, we had plans to hire an additional person for

17 that department. I'm pleased to report that has

18 occurred; but even without the additional person,

19 the Committee appears to have misunderstood the

20 process by which we deliver career counseling to our

21 students. Like academic counseling, career

22 counseling is not exclusively provided by one person

23 or even one department at the law school.

24 While career services facilitates efforts

25 to ensure our students are in a position to make

ABA132


1 sound career choices, career counseling also comes

2 from each student's faculty advisor, virtually all

3 of whom have been practicing attorneys. That one-

4 on-one role that each advisor plays in shaping the

5 career planning and decision-making in the lives of

6 students seems to have been overlooked by the

7 Committee as they focused solely on the career

8 services director.

9 In conclusion, for the foregoing reasons

10 and based upon the information in the brief and

11 Exhibits 1 through 18, we respectfully request that

12 the Council reject the Accreditation Committee's

13 recommendation and grant provisional accreditation.

14 DEAN O'BRIEN: Thank you, Dean, and thank

15 you, Dr. Dawson. We'll now open the floor to the

16 Council for questions.

17 Yes, Maureen.

18 DEAN O'ROURKE: I wonder if you could

19 expand on how you've adjusted the strategic plan in

20 light of market conditions? I understand that

21 you've adjusted the budget and the University has

22 made commitments with respect to finances based on

23 what enrollment looks like it's going to do.

24 But what I wasn't clear on was how you've

25 adjusted the strategic plan in light of trends in

ABA133


1 the economy, trends in the legal profession, and

2 trends in application numbers and how that connects

3 up with the mission of the school. In particular,

4 it wasn't clear to me how, if students are coming

5 out with 80 to 100,000 dollars in debt, that they

6 would actually be able to be employed in the way

7 that you would hope that they would be employed. So

8 that was one question, the adjustment of the

9 strategic plan to the realities of the economy apart

10 from simply adjustment of the budget.

11 And the second though, I'll connect up to

12 the budget, which is the law school, the extent to

13 which the University has committed its financial

14 support. What I think I'm struggling with is how we

15 can be confident of that given such shifting sands

16 in the economy. So I wondered if you could say a

17 word about endowment or how you can be confident

18 knowing that at the undergraduate level there are

19 demographic shifts coming so there are fewer

20 students going to college, you know, how you can be

21 confident that with all the changing sands you can

22 make this kind of un-dollar quantified commitment to

23 the law school over a period of time, or if there

24 isn't one.

25 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure. There's a number of

ABA134


1 factors to your question, so I'll try to address

2 each of them and just let me know if I do not. Let

3 me start sort of at the macro level with regard to

4 the University and its commitment, if I may, and

5 then Dr. Dawson may have additional comments with

6 regard to that.

7 Our University is in a unique position.

8 Our University, from certainly the time that I've

9 been there and as far as I'm aware in its history,

10 has actually never relied on its endowment for

11 operating costs; that's a fairly unique position.

12 Instead, the University has created a situation

13 where we have, in many respects, adopted a business

14 model and from that, we're very careful of our

15 costs, we're very thoughtful in the way we spend our

16 money. And our planning has proven that, in fact,

17 that has beared true as we have been financially

18 sound over the years and continue to do so.

19 What we submitted to the Committee, at

20 that time, was unaudited financials for this last

21 year. At the time, we didn't have audited

22 financials. We have them. We're willing to tender

23 them, but I understand that's new information. But

24 that showed, I believe an eleven-and-a-half million

25 dollar -- surplus isn't the right word, but I'm not

ABA135


1 an accountant so I don't want to use the wrong word

2 -- it actually turned out to be much higher than

3 that, by $2 million. So we're thoughtful in our

4 costs in and the way we....

5 We've had incredible growth, incredible

6 success in our professional level programs. And in

7 doing so, we do planning in different components.

8 We not only plan for the next year, but we are

9 always doing a moving five-year plan. So that

10 planning ties together and includes the net

11 operating losses for the law school as part of

12 University.

13 The University treats each component as a

14 whole. In other words, we're not an island onto

15 ourselves. And so as a result, all of that goes

16 into our strategic plan; the law school's strategic

17 plan dovetails with the University's strategic plan,

18 and it does so at the financial level and other

19 levels too. But your question is financial, so I'll

20 focus on that.

21 So in doing so, we're always looking,

22 well, if these are going to be the losses -- and you

23 do projections, because a pro forma is a projection.

24 And if we look at historical information, when the

25 economy's done poorly, what we know is that LSAT

ABA136


1 test takers goes up and things like that. Nobody

2 expected the decrease, and yet we all have to impact

3 -- our University's impacted by that. So we have to

4 plan based on that. So we do that.

5 We looked at different models in our plan.

6 We do that at the institutional level, and we do

7 that at the law school level all the while thinking,

8 well, what if we get two students, what if we get

9 ten students, what if we get -- we consider all of

10 those models. And we make sure that the funds are

11 there to support the law school and the institution

12 as a whole because, obviously, their concerns are

13 macro and my concerns are more towards the law

14 school, although I, obviously, have the obligation

15 to the entire institution.

16 With that said, let me sort of get into

17 the meat, the other part of your question.

18 DEAN O'ROURKE: So let me just interrupt

19 for a second.

20 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure.

21 DEAN O'ROURKE: So the bottom line then

22 would be that you are tuition and fees driven on the

23 revenue side and you try to control costs on the

24 expense side?

25 DEAN BECKMAN: I believe that's accurate.

ABA137


1 DEAN O'ROURKE: So then the second

2 question would be, one of the things that was

3 noticeable was the percentage of increases that

4 you've had in tuition and fees that don't appear, to

5 me at least, to be sustainable over time.

6 DR. HESS: Just to comment on that.

7 There's a very integrated planning budget and

8 assessment process for the units of the institution

9 and the overall institution. Specifically for the

10 law school, we have engaged a professional

11 recoupement fund.

12 There was evidence in the record that we

13 have brought on a new dean of admissions. We've

14 developed a strategic plan for marketing, a

15 strategic plan for admissions. We have

16 significantly advanced the number of applications

17 early this year over last year relative to the

18 University. All sectors of the University involved

19 in University strategic planning have the law

20 school's support on their agenda for the next five

21 years. That includes our fund raising efforts.

22 There are specific fund raising efforts

23 that will be initiated for the law school. We are

24 very successful in fund raising. We are up in the

25 amount of funds that are raised over last year. All

ABA138


1 indications are that we are going to continue to

2 grow. We have -- the increases in tuition are

3 sometimes related to averages and to the overall

4 programs being introduced.

5 The University has introduced extremely

6 advances professional degree programs in medicine,

7 nurse anesthesiology, nurse family practitioner.

8 Some of these programs have much higher tuition

9 rates. We have a doctorate in education. They are

10 not high compared to our competitors. We are

11 substantially below the national average in terms of

12 our tuition. Our law school is one of the least

13 expensive law schools in the country.

14 Once we are -- if and when we are

15 accredited, we have access to student recruitment we

16 don't have now through LSAT. Those are not

17 available to schools that are not accredited.

18 Students much opt to be in that pool of students

19 that we have access to. There are a lot of things

20 that weigh very heavily in our favor. We have

21 carefully looked at our projections.

22 Also, I would point out that law school is

23 not an island; it's part of the University. The

24 University plans for other programs not only to

25 support the law school, but to grow as a result of

ABA139


1 the law school. When we introduced our medical

2 school, we saw well over a hundred percent increase

3 in all our science enrolments. Introducing the law

4 school, we are seeing increases in our humanities

5 enrollments. We anticipate that that revenue coming

6 to the University can be used to support the law

7 school. There is a lot of evidence in the record

8 that we have very carefully planned for this law

9 school.

10 DR. BECKMAN: You had mentioned something

11 about something doesn't appear sustainable, and I'm

12 not sure we -- what is it that you feel is not

13 sustainable?

14 DEAN O'ROURKE: Well, my question was

15 whether the University's commitment to the law

16 school --

17 THE HONORABLE DURHAM: Would you speak up?

18 We've having trouble hearing you.

19 DEAN O'ROURKE: The second question was

20 whether you had made adjustments to your mission in

21 light of the financial pressures that you could

22 face?

23 DEAN BECKMAN: Oh, no, we've not adjusted

24 our mission. Our mission remains solid. What we've

25 done is, we've certainly looked at and as part of

ABA140


1 our planning process, have adopted some initiatives

2 -- and these are in the early stages -- on what we

3 can do to impact students who really impact our

4 mission after they graduate, such as an initiative

5 where we pay part of their debt over the first year

6 or two. And we're looking at different models. One

7 model we're looking at is one year; another model

8 we're looking at, maybe multiple years. That's one

9 initiative that we're looking at.

10 Now, to be fair, this is part of our

11 strategic planning process, so there's a lot of

12 things that go into that -- the funding of it, how

13 it all ties together -- but that's one of the

14 initiatives that we have looked at. We've looked --

15 of course, another thing that is important is

16 discount rate. And we've looked at our discount

17 rate. We've expanded our discount rate. There's

18 evidence in the record where we were and what we can

19 come to.

20 We're continuing to expand out discount

21 rate in a couple of different of ways -- not just

22 credential based, but need based. And I think

23 that's important. I think those distinctions are

24 important because you may have, again, individuals

25 with low entrance credentials that can be highly

ABA141


1 successful in law school; but yet you have the need

2 and if they fit our mission, I've got to look at the

3 people.

4 We have a lot of people in the Appalachian

5 region that -- I have to backup. It's hard to

6 really understand that region until you live there.

7 And I'm guilty. I was new to East Tennessee and the

8 Appalachian region. And, you know, these aren't my

9 words but a good friend said, these are mountain

10 people. And sometimes they are mountain people.

11 What's interesting is how these people

12 perform versus other groups that we typically study,

13 like minorities. They may not be minority, but

14 they're mountain people and sometimes their

15 performance is similar. And you see that, and

16 they're people that are dedicated. We have a lot of

17 first generation college students. I was one, but I

18 never really understood it until I teach them, and

19 how it impacts them day to day. So we try to --

20 we're constantly assessing and reassessing what we

21 do and how we can improve things for our students.

22 One of the things that we did, and Dr.

23 Hess mentioned it and it's in the record, and that

24 is that we have one of the lowest private school

25 tuitions in the country. And we've made a constant

ABA142


1 effort to be cognizant of what our tuition cost is.

2 We're fortunate in that we have a facility that

3 costs us a dollar a year. I know that a lot of

4 schools don't have that, that's fortunate, we're

5 lucky and we can pass that on. I think it's in the

6 record; it's certainly in the public news that it

7 was about two years ago, LMU froze tuition across

8 the board -- was it two years ago, Dr. Dawson?

9 DR. DAWSON: Two years, yes.

10 DEAN BECKMAN: Two years ago we froze

11 tuition across the board. Again, that comes from an

12 institutional review and assessment of what impacts

13 people. Tuition was going up, you know, the cost of

14 living goes up. You've got to be cognizant of that.

15 But how can we impact this -- every time you add a

16 dollar to tuition, our students are impacted.

17 We've done some other things to impact

18 that. We've looked at what starting salaries are

19 for folks in our part of Tennessee, in Chattanooga

20 which is south and Nashville which is west, in these

21 other areas. And if you look at when a student

22 comes out and they have $100,000 in debt or $80,000

23 in debt, looking at that number -- and I'll be

24 honest with you -- looking at that number is

25 meaningless. What's an important number is, what do

ABA143


1 they pay a month, because that's how it impacts

2 them. Can they make enough money to service that

3 debt on a monthly basis? And that's really the

4 question. Can they; yes.

5 I never met you all. I went through law

6 school. I put myself through, paid all that. I

7 understand that debt. I went to a private school.

8 I get it. You've got to be able to service that

9 debt every single month. I think what's lost is,

10 you know, we're all cognizant of the press. We're

11 all cognizant of the fact that lawyers are getting

12 trampled upon every day in the news and how it's

13 going to impact them.

14 We have a law student here who may wonder,

15 where is my career going to be and how is this going

16 to impact me. But the neat thing about all of us,

17 if we share -- and I realize there's some lay people

18 -- but as an attorney, you can go out and practice

19 law if you can take a bar exam, which is why

20 accreditation is so critical. We have a student

21 that drives two hours every day with four kids that

22 doesn't live in Tennessee. She needs to be able to

23 take the bar.

24 Getting back to your point, Dean O'Rourke.

25 We've done a number of things. As reflected in the

ABA144


1 record, we've hired a firm that does marketing

2 testing. And one of the reasons was because LMU's a

3 small school that a lot of people don't know about.

4 When the University of California starts a law

5 school everybody knows about it, it's national news;

6 when LMU starts a law school, it's not. So we spent

7 a lot of money. We spent a lot of time working on

8 our marketing efforts, not just the effort, but

9 we're improving there. That's in the record.

10 We have looked at all of the various

11 challenges that we face when recruiting students and

12 come up with plans to remediate those challenges,

13 which is part of effective strategic planning. It

14 doesn't mean that it will always work, but that's

15 why you constantly assess and constantly work to

16 remediate those challenges. Everything from our

17 location -- we're in Knoxville, Tennessee, which is

18 a great location by the way, but LMU's not known for

19 that. That's one of our challenges. Our discount

20 rate, our competition.

21 We made changes in our Admissions

22 Department. We hired somebody with a great deal of

23 experience and skill and nohow. It's something we

24 didn't have, and we assessed it and remediated it.

25 We've looked at the economy and how we can impact

ABA145


1 that by keeping tuition low, our discount rate.

2 We're looking at models that will help us such as

3 study discount rates, one of the things that's

4 popular among schools now, scholarships. We've

5 looked at scholarships and how those could impact

6 our students.

7 So we've looked at a lot of different

8 factors. We have plans to remediate, we have plans

9 to assess those things as we move forward and

10 determine whether they are effective or ineffective.

11 DR. DAWSON: Let me just say on behalf of

12 the University that we plan on an annual basis to

13 support the programs that we have instituted, and

14 certainly the law school is among those programs

15 that we will continue to support. And in the

16 foreseeable future, we do not think that there's a

17 problem with our finances and managing the resources

18 necessary to have a fine law school.

19 DEAN O'BRIEN: In the order I've seen

20 them, we have Dennis, Erika, Ruth and Raymond.

21 MR. LYNCH: My question is actually very

22 close but being more specific, not on the financial

23 side, just in what you've learned. You projected

24 100; you hit 55 on the total number you projected.

25 Then you projected 55 and only got 42 --

ABA146


1 THE HONORABLE DURHAM: Dennis, could you

2 speak up a little.

3 DEAN LYNCH: You projected high numbers.

4 You came in significantly lower. The next time

5 around, you projected lower and you came in lower.

6 And now you're projecting higher. What is it -- I

7 mean, I'm not clear exactly in the assessment you

8 just described when you started implementing some

9 changes. What is it that you learned from those

10 over-projections with lower actual yields that have

11 led you to think now, you can get to 80? What

12 specific sort of changes have you put into place as

13 a result of that assessment?

14 DEAN BECKMAN: There are a number of

15 factors; but one of the things that we learned was

16 that we were ineffective in marketing our discount

17 rate and scholarship. In other words, what I mean

18 by ineffective is we were passive about it, as

19 opposed to being aggressive about it. I think

20 that's critical. That's one thing that we learned.

21 Another thing we learned was that by using

22 our marketing firm, we found that our marketing

23 materials were highly ineffective. And so what we

24 ended up finding was that if you look at marketing

25 materials -- and you're shaking your head like

ABA147


1 you've been through this, right. I mean, if you've

2 done any marketing, you understand that something

3 may look great.

4 Here's what we found: 25 percent of

5 everybody's idea -- we had this brainstorming

6 session -- 25 percent of everybody's ideas were

7 effective, 25 percent were actually effective in the

8 wrong direction, and then about half didn't make a

9 difference at all. That's significant. When you're

10 putting money into marketing -- whether it's

11 Internet, whether it's email, whether it's print

12 materials, whether it's what they call freebee

13 material, it's like give a way -- it tends to be

14 ineffective.

15 I'll give you one anecdotal example. I

16 thought a letter from the dean would be effective,

17 right -- and I write a great letter. It wasn't

18 effective. It wasn't effective. What was effective

19 was a letter from a student. That was effective.

20 So that's some of the things that we've learned.

21 We learned that we needed students to get

22 involved in calling potential applicants. And we

23 used them and a way for them to make some money.

24 They would call because it's a colleague, you know,

25 a potential colleague. That was effective. We

ABA148


1 learned that our admissions director was

2 ineffective. And this is the first cycle that Dean

3 Cook has been with us so he can't take the blame for

4 anything that's happened in the past, that's another

5 thing that I think was incredibly important.

6 We learned that, interestingly, we were

7 not effective in selling our location. Let me tell

8 you what I mean. LMU's been around since 1897. LMU

9 is in Harrogate, Tennessee. Who knows where

10 Harrogate, Tennessee is? I didn't have a clue. I

11 didn't know where it was. The problem is when

12 you're a student, sometimes the city's important to

13 you. And so what we were ineffective in doing is

14 saying, we're in Knoxville, Tennessee. Now, many of

15 you probably know where Knoxville, Tennessee is.

16 I'll tell you, there's no greater place in the

17 country to live, no offense, but it's awesome living

18 in Knoxville. I love Knoxville. So that's one of

19 the things that we learned.

20 We learned that our reputation, LMU's

21 reputation was localized as a small liberal arts

22 school. And we ineffective in showing our programs.

23 So it means a lot when you have all these programs

24 that are available, professional programs.

25 We learned that -- one of the ways we

ABA149


1 market, as I'm sure many schools market, is you

2 target students who have taken the LSAT test, right.

3 Well, what we learned is, the candidate referral

4 service from which you buy your information, they

5 won't sell us information unless a person

6 specifically, affirmatively -- and I use the term

7 "check a box," but it's all electronic -- but check

8 a box that says you can submit to unaccredited

9 schools.

10 Now, how many students out there will let

11 their information go to an unaccredited school; I

12 can tell you, it's a very small percentage. So that

13 means that we have to use a very small percentage of

14 folks from the candidate referral service and then

15 we have to market other ways. And when we're a

16 small school that is not well-known, we've got to be

17 better at that so that's why we've had to target,

18 you know, bring in a marketing firm and do things

19 like that.

20 DEAN LYNCH: Listening to that, it's very

21 informative. I appreciate the explanation. But this

22 tension between whether you alter your planning to

23 assume fewer students learning everything you've

24 learned in terms of the time it may take for the

25 kind of change that you're talking about to take

ABA150


1 hold, or you project up in your planning, do you

2 think you can turn it around that fast?

3 I mean, somehow it doesn't -- in a

4 declining world of applicants and changes in

5 potential applicants dealing with debt-related

6 income and all the issues going on, it still sounds

7 strange that you've been through this marketing --

8 these things you've identified -- is going to alter

9 it better than altering your planning to project

10 somewhat fewer students. You jacked it back up to

11 almost double what you normally would.

12 DEAN BECKMAN: Well, to be fair, two

13 things are important. One, we've implemented these

14 marketing changes and we did all this planning last

15 year. This is all in the record. I mean, this is

16 nothing new. We've done all this. This was before

17 the Committee. This was before. So this is stuff

18 that's happened in the past. So we've made these

19 alterations. That's one.

20 Number two, we have altered and we

21 constantly review. We are in the cycle right now

22 where we do our budget planning. And so we have

23 reduced our numbers moving forward based on that

24 possibility. You have to plan for both. You have

25 to plan for fewer students, and you have to plan for

ABA151


1 additional students; but for budget planning you

2 should always plan for fewer students, so we have

3 done that. And we do that every single year. It's a

4 very detailed, very long process.

5 So the planning actually breaks out in

6 different directions. Part of the planning deals

7 with marketing; part of the planning deals with

8 budgeting. So we've implemented these changes, and

9 we're now in the cycle where hopefully we'll see

10 that. As Dr. Hess mentioned, we've seen an up-tic

11 in applicants. So we're seeing some of that. We're

12 seeing people becoming aware of our institution that

13 were not aware of our institution before. We're

14 doing better effective marketing, and yet we are

15 projecting fewer students; hopefully, we'll

16 compensate for both of those things. I think that's

17 what planning is; you've got to plan for those

18 contingencies in all directions. And we've done

19 that. I mean, we build models to do that so that we

20 have no surprises. One of the things that we're good

21 at is trying to come up with different contingences

22 so, okay, if this happens we do this; if this

23 happens, we do this. Nobody can predict the future,

24 but we try to plan for all of those things.

25 Bringing in -- and I have to say it --

ABA152


1 bringing in Dean Cook has been a huge benefit too.

2 His experience has helped us tremendously in areas

3 based on marketing. Some of the challenges he had

4 at his former institution translate well to East

5 Tennessee. So we've had some great success in that

6 and in the fact that we've seen an uptick in

7 applications, you know, we'd like to think is

8 probative of our changes in design based upon our

9 planning.

10 DEAN HESS: And to be fair, our size

11 institution an our location, there are lots of small

12 institutions in Appalachia. And we are part of

13 associations, like the Appalachian College

14 Association, which is a group of small private

15 colleges. We're networking with those colleges that

16 have students that have a similar background to our

17 students who might be now more comfortable at our

18 law school. And we're beginning to build those

19 networks that we had not built until this point.

20 We're trying a lot of new strategies and a lot of

21 things are beginning to be fruitful for us.

22 The discount rate that was approved by our

23 Board came in late last year and had very little

24 impact on that class. It's available now for the

25 entire recruitment period -- if I'm not correct,

ABA153


1 correct me -- but it didn't make much difference

2 last year because it was approved late and it was

3 not made available early enough to help attract

4 students.

5 We have made strategic initiatives. We've

6 prioritized those initiatives. We are evaluating

7 their effectiveness. We will continue to do what's

8 effective, and we will implement new strategies to

9 be more effective. And as we intend to revise our

10 strategic plan per forma on a five-year basis we

11 will project some downturn in other programs, but we

12 project tremendous growth in other programs.

13 What we didn't and cannot introduce, I

14 misspoke on your previous question, is that we're

15 starting an honors college, and there is great

16 interest in our region in an honors college. And it

17 will be on our campus and it will target pre-

18 professional students. So we're doing a lot.

19 DR. DAWSON: But ultimately when asked the

20 question, what happens if you have fewer students;

21 we are prepared for that inevitability and will

22 adjust the budget accordingly to support the law

23 school as needed with a smaller class size.

24 DEAN BECKMAN: We have a cash strategic

25 initiative, a fully-funded cash strategic initiative

ABA154


1 to handle those things. And that amount, Dr.

2 Dawson?

3 DR. DAWSON: Currently, $7 million for

4 strategic initiatives, the reserve for just this

5 kind of issue.

6 THE HONORABLE DURHAM: Dean, the mission

7 that you offered to us today -- the purpose of a

8 feasibility study, I think it said this directly,

9 the purpose of the feasibility study is to determine

10 whether certain conditions exist that justify the

11 establishment of the new law school. Your

12 feasibility study was completed in 2008.

13 You correctly observed, I think, that the

14 Standards do not require more than one feasibility

15 study, but something happened, again it happened in

16 2008, which is that the country went into recession

17 and that the bottom fell out of the legal market.

18 There are some studies which suggest that the legal

19 profession has been hit as hard or harder than any

20 other industry in the United States.

21 I notice that when, in the transcript of

22 your appearance before the Accreditation Committee,

23 when pressed on this you responded by saying, well,

24 no, we never updated our 2008 feasibility study, but

25 let me tell you a couple of stories, and you

ABA155


1 provided two anecdotes, as I recall.

2 But I have to say, it troubles me that

3 given the nature of the impact on our profession

4 and, particularly, since you have identified your

5 mission to be services to a very particular

6 community, both educational services and legal

7 services, that you haven't undertaken any steps to

8 get some empirical data that would suggest that the

9 conditions exist in your market to justify the

10 establishment of the new law school.

11 DEAN BECKMAN: I don't think that's

12 accurate, and let me go back. I think the

13 disconnect was -- the focus of the Committee on the

14 feasibility study. The appropriate mechanism and

15 process to address those concerns would be on a

16 strategic plan, which we have done with great

17 detail.

18 THE HONORABLE DURHAM: But there's another

19 disconnect because feasibility is oriented to

20 conditions justifying existence of a school; where a

21 strategic plan goes into how the school, once

22 created, manages ongoing challenges. And it's

23 really the former that I'm concerned about.

24 DEAN HESS: One of the ongoing challenges

25 is that market. Our strategic planning process at

ABA156


1 the institution is used as a model by many schools.

2 We break it out into every area of the institution.

3 There are environmental scans that are ongoing to

4 assess the market in each discipline where we have a

5 program.

6 There are changes that are made to all of

7 those recruitment efforts in all of those

8 disciplines to continue to support those programs.

9 Much of the information in that feasibility study

10 has not changed -- population projections have not

11 changed, the age of the people who will be retiring

12 have not, if anything, it's becoming more real.

13 There are many factors in that feasibility study

14 which have now become a part of an environmental

15 scan for strategic planning.

16 The feasibility study had an end date;

17 strategic planning is an ongoing continuous

18 research-based process to improve the program and

19 services of the law school and the University.

20 DR. DAWSON: So we would submit that a

21 part of the strategic planning process is, indeed,

22 that environmental scan which includes a look at the

23 feasibility.

24 DEAN BECKMAN: The other thing is, when

25 you build an institution, you build an institution

ABA157


1 for the long-term, not the short term and not the

2 medium term. As was said recently -- and this is a

3 quote, these are not my words -- "Regardless of what

4 some may see as the desirability of denying access

5 to the legal profession on the basis of even medium-

6 term employment opportunities, the accrediting

7 agency simply cannot lawfully do so." Those are the

8 words of the ABA, I believe Mr. Askew wrote those

9 words in response to a letter from Senator Grassley.

10 Universities, institutions, must build programs

11 based on the long-term. And what's critical is

12 having the ability to handle short-term challenges

13 or medium-term challenges. Not everybody does that

14 well; Lincoln Memorial University has a history of

15 doing it exceptionally well. I mean, we've been

16 around since 1897.

17 The other thing is, we have to recognize

18 that in addition to the comment that the population

19 is growing, Tennessee -- East Tennessee and

20 Tennessee has not been hit as hard as other areas of

21 the country in our Appalachian region. It's not that

22 it hasn't been hit, it just hasn't been hit as hard.

23 And also it's important to know that we

24 have a lot of people -- part of the part-time

25 program is people that have to continue to work, but

ABA158


1 still want to get the same education to become

2 attorneys; and that's an opportunity that really no

3 one else in our region offers, you have to go as far

4 west as Nashville, and that's not an accredited

5 institution, or south to Atlanta.

6 THE HONORABLE DURHAM: That's true. If I

7 might just ask one follow up question. Part of your

8 mission, your stated mission is to produce graduates

9 who will go back into the underserved communities in

10 East Tennessee and serve them, and yet the

11 documentation suggests that paid employment that

12 would support such a service has shrunk in the

13 region rather than even been maintained and

14 stabilized.

15 DEAN BECK: I think that what you see in

16 the region, the Appalachian region, is a shift. I

17 mean, there is some shrinking in certain areas and

18 not in others. I mean, we don't have a lot of

19 really big firms; we just don't. We have a lot of

20 small and medium-sized firms. And I've talk with

21 people regularly, as does career services, as does

22 the rest of our faculty, and I will tell you -- we

23 have an Advisory Board which consists of judges and

24 lawyers throughout the region trying to encompass

25 part of the Appalachian region, and they'll tell you

ABA159


1 they have a lot of work. They do have a lot of

2 work.

3 It changes, the work changes, and the

4 opportunities shift, but they're there. Lawyers, you

5 know, the advantage that you have -- when I came

6 out of college, I couldn't do anything with my

7 degree except go to school. Some degrees, you know,

8 there's a lot of liberal arts degrees that just

9 don't provide opportunities. A law degree and the

10 ability to practice law provides opportunities for

11 individuals at all levels, whether it's hanging out

12 a shingle or partnering up. And the need is there

13 for the legal representation. Let's not get lost on

14 that. The reality is that need is increasing. The

15 need for good legal representation is increasing.

16 Now, they're areas that maybe limited, but

17 it's still there -- it may be family, it may be

18 immigration -- but they're there. There's like two

19 immigration attorneys in East Tennessee, and our

20 fastest growing population is Hispanic in areas that

21 we have immigration issues. So, you know, those are

22 growing. It's shifting; it's not necessarily

23 shrinking, it's shifting. And part of what we do is

24 try to provide opportunity.

25 Additionally, there's court-appointed

ABA160


1 work, you know, which is not necessarily shrinking,

2 but probably growing. So there's lots of

3 opportunities.

4 DR. DAWSON: Let me emphasize, however,

5 that your Standards don't, in fact, emphasize the

6 concerns that you raise.

7 MS. ROBINSON: I have a few questions.

8 DEAN BECKMAN: Yes, ma'am.

9 MS. ROBINSON: The first question is, if

10 you could describe for me the theoretical

11 underpinnings of your Academic Success Program, and

12 what do you mean by -- how you serve students who

13 are struggling, and what evidence do you have that

14 those methods actually worked?

15 My second question is -- it's kind of a

16 comment and then a question. We know that students

17 are generally more successful in obtaining legal

18 employment if they are able to find a clerkship

19 during their one-L or two-L summer. Can you tell me

20 the percentage of students from your inaugural class

21 and your subsequent class that had summer employment

22 and where they were employed?

23 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure. Obviously, two

24 different points, so I'll address them individually.

25 With regard to the academic success, our

ABA161


1 program is, as I mentioned before, has tremendous

2 breadth. It is -- one of the things that we did

3 this last year was, we had Bridge Week, which we had

4 expanded this last year based on the assessment of

5 the previous year. We added some time to it. We've

6 changed the offerings. We do assessment at every

7 level.

8 So with regard to course level assessment

9 -- which this is what it would be -- we do

10 assessment of Bridge Week which is one part, each of

11 the sub-classes -- which is Academic Success I,

12 Academic Success II, Academic Success III -- each of

13 those components. We have writing tutors. These

14 are people that provide one-on-one tutoring. We

15 employ three of them that provide one-on-one

16 tutoring to students that have legal writing issues.

17 One of the things that we have found is

18 that one of the fundamental issues that students

19 face is writing and the ability to write well. And

20 in talking to -- we do a great deal of faculty

21 development. And so one of the things that we found

22 in talking to faculty at other legal institutions

23 across the country, regardless of entrance

24 credentials, writing problems are pervasive across

25 schools.

ABA162


1 So we think it's important, and we put a

2 great deal of energy into helping with writing. So

3 writing tutors. We do academic counseling and then,

4 of course, workshops that are singularly focused,

5 depending on the workshop, in the skill that we have

6 determined really needs help.

7 We also -- the ASP is supposed to help

8 them prepare for classes, prepare them for exams --

9 both, right -- and how to better educate our

10 students in exam preparation. So not just how to

11 take the exam, but how to effectively devote their

12 time to preparing for exams. Things like, you know,

13 we found -- again, through our assessment process --

14 that some of our students struggled with fundamental

15 issues like outlining. So we got together. We said,

16 let's have some workshops and let's do some

17 exercises on how to better outline, how to prepare

18 your materials so that you study more effectively.

19 One of the things that we found, through

20 our assessment mechanisms, is that a lot of students

21 think that, well, if I managed to get through

22 school, undergraduate school with good grades those

23 skills should translate well into law school. They

24 don't -- well, sometimes they do, but they don't.

25 So to help those students, we've developed workshops

ABA163


1 to help them. Look, let's find your weaknesses.

2 And, of course, they can change, which is why we

3 constantly assess each term and each class.

4 The philosophy of ASP really centers

5 around the acquisition of knowledge, the

6 internalization of knowledge, and the application of

7 knowledge. It's not just black and white, as far as

8 black letter law. It's how to think, how to think

9 like a lawyer. We have -- for us, academic success

10 starts before students matriculate. And that means

11 it starts at Bridge Week before they ever take their

12 first class, so that we can try to ramp-up some of

13 their skills in areas that they may be lacking.

14 It provides an overview of the system, not

15 just legal education, but what they do every day.

16 An introduction to the common law system, how to

17 brief cases, our technology. We actually hold a

18 mock class. We hold a mock exam. We teach them how

19 to do IRAP. We give them lectures on things like

20 thinking like a lawyer, time management. Time

21 management's a critical problem for students. And

22 we try to help them from the very beginning to

23 become more effective time managers.

24 MS. ROBINSON: Let me interrupt you.

25 DEAN BECKMAN: Yes, ma'am.

ABA164


1 MS. ROBINSON: My question is: How do you

2 determine that the strategies that you are imploring

3 are the most effective strategies in achieving

4 academic success for students that are struggling?

5 Because I understand from reading the record,

6 reading the transcript, all of these programs, but

7 how did you make your determination that these are

8 the methods that would be the most effective in

9 delivering those services? So I guess that's my

10 question.

11 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure. We can ask, to my

12 left, Dean Meldrum to expand on it; but we do that

13 for not only course-level assessment, we do it

14 through measuring outputs, grades. And remember,

15 one of the things that we have that's unique that

16 gives us the opportunity to measure more outputs

17 than many institutions is, we literally have daily

18 assessment. So that means that, you know, when most

19 of us went to law school, I had a final exam and

20 that was it, and lot of schools follow that model.

21 We don't follow that model. We use

22 interactive technology so every day -- there's some

23 exceptions, but very few -- every day a student is

24 going to know how they're doing on the subject

25 matter in a given class. So one of the things that

ABA165


1 we can look at -- we compile all the data, and we

2 examine all that data. So let's say that you're

3 struggling in an area. And one of the things that

4 ASP will help you focus on is tailoring -- okay, I'm

5 struggling in torts, so let's look at that. And we

6 do that though a number of different ways that

7 things. I won't go into substance; you don't want

8 substance, you want the assessment.

9 So then what we look at is, okay, let's

10 start looking at your daily assessment data and see

11 if we're seeing improvement -- because we can do

12 that daily. We can do that with mandatory midterms.

13 We can do that with our final exams. So we can

14 measure outputs and assess inputs. We can do both

15 and then look at that data. We abrogate that data

16 across the entire institution, not just with regard

17 to students that may be struggling, we do it across

18 the entire institution constantly. With that said,

19 Dean Meldrum, would you --

20 DEAN MELDRUM: Essentially, we had to take

21 two different approaches. Obviously, when we

22 started, we did not have a mechanism for assessment

23 to determine the efficacy of the program. So what

24 we did is, we took a look at undergraduate

25 institutions first because they have a much longer

ABA166


1 history in using Academic Success Programs than law

2 schools have had. So we tried to do a lot of

3 research in other areas to determine what worked

4 with the population and demographics of students

5 that we've recruited.

6 Secondly, we looked at other law schools

7 that also have similar student credentials, about

8 those things that worked and didn't. And what we

9 found immediately is that were losing a lot of

10 students during the first few weeks after they were

11 enrolled. And so what that said, to me at least,

12 is that many of our students are learning very

13 quickly that they're not cut out for this -- they

14 don't have the time to commit, they don't have the

15 desire, or perhaps they don't have the capacity --

16 while we thought they did, maybe they got in there

17 and, at least, self-assessed that they don't.

18 So in light of that, we decided that it

19 would be effective if we create a Bridge Program so

20 that way, before they ever matriculate, they go

21 through a pretty rigorous week of what law school

22 will be like. And we'd bring in the doctrinal

23 faculty, and they give those pretend classes. We

24 give them cases to read and they brief.

25 So what we discovered is we did lose some

ABA167


1 students during that Bridge Week, and we never made

2 money off them. We didn't charge them tuition.

3 They never matriculated and so they never pulled

4 down those federal dollars. And that really helped

5 because it gave them an opportunity to see whether

6 or not they might be successful. So we found it was

7 important to empower them, to give them enough

8 information to decide on their own. So we did that

9 by creating the Bridge Week.

10 Second of all, we created the Academic

11 Success Program I that all students have to enroll

12 in. And we thought that was important because it

13 takes away the stigma of Academic Success. Students

14 don't want to be enrolled in a remedial program,

15 that makes them uncomfortable and I don't blame

16 them, so we created the ASP I program. And we

17 require everyone to take it. Not only do some of

18 the stronger students pull up the weaker students,

19 it allows them all to feel involved.

20 So from that program, once we got that

21 program started, then we'd start assessing how they

22 did. So during the first week, we would give them

23 sample exercises where they have an opportunity to

24 analyze and issue. And then along the way through

25 ASP I, we would compare it back to how they did at

ABA168


1 the beginning to see if they were improving,

2 especially including the practice exams. With those,

3 we actually have the doctrinal faculty that are

4 teaching in the first semester create those practice

5 exams and get practice answers.

6 Because what we have found that the

7 students most appreciate about our Academic Success

8 Program is that it's directly tied to the courses

9 they're taking that semester so they can gauge, not

10 just whether they're learning in theory, but are

11 they actually learning how to apply it in this

12 particular professor's course. So along the way, we

13 always get feedback, both summatively and

14 formatively, to determine whether or not they're

15 making that progress.

16 We keep electronic writing portfolios on

17 all of our students. So everything they've ever

18 written we keep; we pull those randomly every

19 semester. I review them, the director of academic

20 success reviews them, and we actually have a rubric

21 to determine whether or not they're making progress.

22 So I can probably go on and on, but I don't want to

23 belabor it, but that's essentially how we determine

24 whether or not it's effective. And when we find

25 it's not, we change it -- by adding ASP II, for

ABA169


1 instance.

2 We found ASP I might not be enough. So for

3 those students who fell in the gap -- they were

4 above a 2.0, but they didn't have to take ASP, but

5 they weren't doing so well, they needed a little

6 more. They needed a little more help. So we have

7 made ASP II a required course for students who fail

8 to achieve a 2.33 in their second semester.

9 So, again, we get that through assessment,

10 by looking at their needs and how they're

11 progressing through the program. And, again, I

12 think most importantly about our ASP that fulfills

13 our mission, it's all free.

14 MS. ROBINSON: My hope was that are works

15 that available that specifically look at law

16 students. And I'm thinking specifically of Michael

17 Schwartz and his empirical works. And I was hoping

18 that we would you hear you discuss that a little bit

19 more, but I am comfortable enough to move on to the

20 question about students and the students that

21 actually had jobs during your summer program.

22 DEAN BECKMAN: I'll do that, but I do want

23 you to know that we've consulted with Michael. He

24 was a former colleague. I know him very well. He

25 was down in Charleston, down the road from you. And

ABA170


1 that's in the record. As well as the gentleman from

2 Suffolk, his name slips my mind -- Jim Janda. We

3 consulted with him to do this very thing -- to see

4 what we're doing and get some other perspectives on

5 whether we can improve or change those things. So

6 we have done that. We've also consulted with the --

7 again I forget the name, it's in the record -- but

8 the lady who wrote Juris Types. What's the test --

9 the personality test and how it applies to different

10 learning types.

11 MS. ROBINSON: Martha Peters?

12 DEAN BECKMAN: Martha Peters, there you

13 go. Sorry. So we've done all of that in hopes to

14 tailor our program.

15 With regard to your question, we do, in

16 fact, track that very carefully; but I can tell you

17 that -- I can actually break it down. This was the

18 student employment and placements last summer.

19 Everybody who sought placement received it. Now, it

20 was not a huge cohort of students, but everybody who

21 wanted some placement received it. And we actually

22 break it down and I can tell you with exact

23 specificity where they went. And I'm sure you don't

24 want to hear them all, but let me give you --

25 MS. ROBINSON: I just want the number.

ABA171


1 Out of X students, how many students receive

2 placement for the summer?

3 DEAN BECKMAN: Let me make sure I give you

4 the right number. The number who sought employment

5 last summer was 30 and they all got it.

6 MS. ROBINSON: And how many were in the

7 class?

8 DEAN BECKMAN: Well, eligible for --

9 MS. ROBINSON: Eligible for employment.

10 DEAN BECKMAN: 136, but a lot of those are

11 part-time students so they have full-time jobs --

12 some of those are in law firms, some aren't -- so

13 they wouldn't have been seeking necessarily.

14 DEAN MELDRUM: And if I could throw in, 10

15 percent of those were employed in judicial

16 internships or externships.

17 DEAN BECKMAN: Yeah, we have some students

18 that already have gotten full-time employment by the

19 way, offers of full-time employment postgraduation

20 including one with the Tennessee Supreme Court.

21 DEAN O'BRIEN: All right. We're going to

22 move on to Chief Justice McGregor.

23 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: In your response

24 to the Accreditation Committee Report, in that reply

25 in a number of your arguments you refer to and rely

ABA172


1 upon what you describe as the findings of SACS-COC

2 and the Tennessee Board of Law Examiners and the

3 Site Report, and you asked us to reject the

4 Accreditation Committee's Report based upon the

5 findings of those three bodies.

6 Now, for my question, assume with me that

7 his Council finds or regards the conclusions of SACS

8 and the Tennessee Board of Law Examiners

9 interesting, but of no evidentiary value in

10 determining whether you complied -- substantially

11 complied with the ABA standards; and also assume, as

12 is the case, that this Council gives no particular

13 deference to the Site Report findings, unlike the

14 deference we give to the Accreditation Committee.

15 So please set aside for me for my

16 hypothetical question the findings you replied upon

17 on the SACS, the Tennessee Board of Law Examiners

18 and the Site Report. Dean, as a lawyer as a legal

19 education professional, would you argue to this

20 Council that your school has carried the burden of

21 showing substantial compliance with the Standards

22 without relying upon those three sources?

23 DEAN BECKMAN: Absolutely, yes.

24 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: All right. Would

25 you tell me why then in your brief to us you argue

ABA173


1 that we should set these aside based on the ABA Site

2 Team Report and the findings of SACS-COC and the

3 TBLE.

4 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure, I'll do that. I'll

5 address each one.

6 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: And I also want -

7 - and I just want to know -- you don't have to go

8 through lots of detail here, Dean; but as to each of

9 those Standards where the Accreditation Committee

10 found lack of substantial compliance, would you

11 please just tell me what evidence you replied upon,

12 leaving aside those three sources.

13 DEAN BECKMAN: Okay. Dr. Hess --

14 DEAN HESS: Let me just say a word about

15 that. Each of those findings in each of those

16 Standards that you cited those are not just ABA

17 Standards, those refer to Federal Standards. The

18 Southern Association of Colleges and Schools --

19 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: No, no. No, I'm

20 not -- leave aside those findings, because I really

21 think they do not have evidentiary value for us. I

22 don't know whether the rest of the Council agrees

23 with me or not. So I'm very curious to think what

24 you think is sufficient to carry your burden without

25 those.

ABA174


1 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure. I think that

2 although the brief certainly does outline specifics

3 with regard to those other bodies; it also outlines

4 specifics with regard to, yes, the Site Team Report

5 the findings of the Committee.

6 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: Maybe I can

7 short-circuit this because I know we're beyond time.

8 Are there factors you would rely upon, other than

9 those identified in the brief to us; or if we go

10 back and see what factors, other than the three

11 things I've taken out of the picture, if we go back

12 to your brief, will everything be there that you

13 think we should rely upon to be testifying before

14 the Accreditation Committee?

15 DEAN BECKMAN: Yes, remember --

16 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: Okay. That's

17 fine. That's --

18 DEAN BECKMAN: Let me point one thing out,

19 your Honor, if I might. Under the Rules of

20 Procedure, all of the evidence that was submitted to

21 the ABA in the 18 exhibits that I have submitted

22 today are properly before you.

23 Additionally, if you look at the Rules of

24 Procedure, it says that, in effect, the conclusions

25 reached by the Committee are de novo. It's the

ABA175


1 findings -- it's the findings that you must give

2 deference to, unless there's not substantial

3 evidence in the record. So it is our position that

4 there is not substantial evidence in the record with

5 regard to those portions of the particular findings

6 used to support the conclusions.

7 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: And my question

8 to you is: If we set aside your argument that there

9 is no basis for the Accreditation Committee's

10 findings because of the Site Report, then is

11 everything we need to support that argument --

12 because that argument does rely upon, I think you

13 would agree, on the findings of the Site Report --

14 if you set that aside and there are other reasons to

15 find that the Accreditation Committee made arbitrary

16 findings, they're all there in your written

17 argument.

18 DEAN BECKMAN: They are. But can I just

19 give you one example to make sure we're on the same

20 page, if I might, your Honor?

21 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: Okay.

22 DEAN BECKMAN: One example; and I have to

23 put the letter in front of me, so forgive me for a

24 moment.

25 Here's an example. They said that -- this

ABA176


1 is in there -- I'm sorry. I'll give you a specific

2 reference. This is the Committee's letter, page 13

3 of 23 where they talk about the admissions and the

4 first year class profile.

5 What they say is that there's a decline --

6 just this one example, as I said, your Honor -- a

7 decline in yield. So although it's correct; it's

8 misinterpreted. And so I think you've got to look

9 at it carefully to recognize that it is, in fact,

10 misinterpreted.

11 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: And that argument

12 is in your brief?

13 DEAN BECKMAN: It is, yes, ma'am; but to

14 get to your point, it's in here. So it is here. I

15 just think that there should be guidance into how

16 those are looked at.

17 DEAN RUSSELL: Your Honor, if I understand

18 your question, I think you're asking if you put all

19 of these reports aside, does sufficient evidence

20 exist within the record --

21 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: Yes.

22 DEAN RUSSELL: -- to support our petition

23 for provisional accreditation.

24 THE HONORABLE MCGREGOR: No; have you

25 carried your burden of establishing substantial

ABA177


1 compliance?

2 DEAN RUSSELL: And, your Honor, yes. I

3 would specifically point you to the Self Study and

4 all of its exhibits. There are a number of

5 additional updates we provided to the American Bar

6 Association, but the Self Study is our primary

7 compliance document.

8 DEAN O'BRIEN: All right. We'll go to

9 Raymond.

10 DEAN PIERCE: My question's been answered.

11 DEAN O'BRIEN: All right. Let's go to

12 Greg.

13 MR. MURPHY: Dean, can you tell me what

14 percentage of your students come from Tennessee?

15 DEAN BECKMAN: The vast majority. One

16 moment, sir.

17 DEAN MELDRUM: There were 75 to 85 percent

18 came from Tennessee.

19 DEAN BECKMAN: That's not everybody, but

20 that's the last class.

21 MR. MURPHY: So you hope to serve all of

22 southern Appalachia. So you would expect most of

23 those students to stay in Tennessee to serve the

24 population in Tennessee; is that correct?

25 DEAN BECKMAN: I believe that's true.

ABA178


1 MR. MURPHY: And the Tennessee Board of

2 Bar Examiners, as I understand it, before you could

3 open your doors, it said it would allow the

4 graduates of the school to take the Tennessee Bar

5 Exam, right?

6 DEAN BECKMAN: Yes, sir.

7 MR. MURPHY: Has that organization given

8 you any indications that it would withdraw that if

9 this Council did not grant provisional approval.

10 DEAN BECKMAN: We will be reviewed. They

11 have not telegraphed one way or the other what their

12 decision would be; but that letter actually triggers

13 that because their letter understood we were

14 applying for ABA accreditation, and if we aren't

15 granted it, we will go before them again for review.

16 MR. MURPHY: They obviously did their own

17 independent analysis applying their own standards

18 and their own judgment with respect to the decision

19 to allow the students to take the bar examination;

20 you would expect them then, after they hear whatever

21 our decision is, to take another look at that and

22 make their own independent judgment, correct?

23 DEAN BECKMAN: I would expect that, yes,

24 sir.

25 MR. MURPHY: But you've heard nothing from

ABA179


1 them to suggest that if the Council decided not to

2 grant provisional approval, that being the judgment

3 of the Accreditation Committee that would take

4 place, that the Board would withdraw it's previous

5 ruling?

6 DEAN BECKMAN: They have the authority to

7 do that. sir.

8 MR. MURPHY: They have the authority, but

9 you haven't heard anything from them to suggest that

10 they would; is that true?

11 DEAN BECKMAN: Not in either direction.

12 It wouldn't be appropriate under the timeline.

13 We've certainly informed them, as were required to

14 do. We've informed them of the Committee's

15 decision; we had to do that, they're an accreditor.

16 But they have not, no. I mean, the answer is, no.

17 MR. MURPHY: They haven't telegraphed

18 their report?

19 DEAN BECKMAN: They have not, sir.

20 MR. MURPHY: Thank you.

21 DEAN O'BRIEN: Michael?

22 PROFESSOR DAVIS: I don't know which Dean

23 to address this to, perhaps Dean Cook or Dean

24 Beckman. Over the last two years you've admitted

25 about 70 percent of your applicants, but that means

ABA180


1 that 30 percent weren't admitted. Had you admitted

2 more than 70 percent, you probably would have come

3 closer to your enrollment projections.

4 I'm curious, the basis upon which you

5 don't admit students -- and there's two subparts to

6 that -- first, do you have an absolute academic

7 profile floor below which you will not go regardless

8 of what else is implied (a); and (b), what other

9 factors, short of things that attract the attention

10 of character fitness review people, do you take into

11 account when deciding not to admit people?

12 DEAN BECKMAN: So part of your question,

13 the answer is we do not have an absolute floor.

14 That would violate the LSAC's policies regarding

15 good admission's practices, and we don't think that

16 a floor is appropriate. We do look at files in

17 their entirety.

18 And so that means that in addition to LSAT

19 scores and undergraduate GPA, we look at a number of

20 factors. We look at graduate degrees. We look at

21 graduate GPAs. We look at experience post-

22 graduation at the undergraduate level. We look at

23 other areas of service that they may have done. We

24 look at their work in the community.

25 We look at letters of reference. And we

ABA181


1 all know there are substantive letters of reference

2 and not substantive letters of reference. We read

3 them all. We look at their personal statement. We

4 look at their CV. We look at everything in their

5 file that may impact -- now, I'll turn this actually

6 over in a moment to Professor Reid because she

7 chairs our Admissions Committee, and she may give

8 you some more insight. But we do look at everything.

9 We also have the option of personal

10 interviews. And so we'll bring in students that we

11 think, you know, I don't know. I mean, anybody on

12 the Admissions Committee can ask for a personal

13 interview and then we would bring them in. As I

14 understand, that's highly unusual at law schools but

15 that's that personal contact.

16 So let me give you a specific example,

17 sir. One of the things that the Committee talked

18 about, again they focused solely on LSAT scores and

19 we admitted a 138, a very low score. Well, if you

20 look at if from a holistic perspective, maybe it

21 wasn't a bad decision. This individual was a

22 professional educator in East Tennessee. She had an

23 earned doctoral degree. She had an earned education

24 specialist degree. She had two master's degrees, in

25 addition to her bachelor's degree. Her GPA from her

ABA182


1 graduate-level work, I believe the lowest was a

2 3.85. The lowest was a 3.85 across her graduate

3 degrees.

4 We looked at her work. She was a

5 minority. She was going to stay in the area. We

6 looked at everything. We had personal contact with

7 her on two occasions. So, yes, we made the decision

8 on other factors to admit her. We've got to look --

9 we can't serve the mission if we just look at

10 numbers. We can't. So that gives you some insight.

11 PROFESSOR REID: Well, I would just add,

12 we look at the entire applicant's file. So we look

13 at things other than the LSAT and the undergraduate

14 GPA and we make these kind considerations based upon

15 their writing sample, their prior work history,

16 their legal experience because a lot of times,

17 they're paralegals and court reporters, things of

18 that nature.

19 I'm the chair of the Committee and then

20 there's two other faculty members that decide upon

21 and vote. If both decide we're going to approve

22 entrance, it's up to the Dean who then decides, yes

23 or no. And there's actually been times in which the

24 Dean hasn't agreed with us and said, no, I don't

25 think this person is capable to complete the course

ABA183


1 work at the law school. In the case of a tie, as

2 the chair, I make the determination of whether we're

3 going to say yes or no; and, again, that goes to the

4 Dean.

5 We've also received a lot of training from

6 the Dean of Academics taking a look at the LSAT

7 Correlation Study, as well as discussing academic

8 dismissal, and making a determination what type of

9 predictors we look at in the LSAT and undergraduate

10 GPA in determining what we should take into

11 consideration. However, like the Dean said, we look

12 at the entire picture of the person, and there are

13 people who have low LSATs, but -- have I answered

14 that?

15 PROFESSOR DAVIS: You have.

16 DEAN O'BRIEN: Ed Butterfoss?

17 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: Dean, am I correct, you

18 goals for the entering class in 2012 are 80 full

19 time and 25 part time?

20 DEAN BECKMAN: That was the last

21 projection we submitted. We've revised those

22 numbers.

23 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: What is the new one?

24 DEAN BECKMAN: Forty and 20.

25 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: You mentioned an uptick

ABA184


1 in applications. I guess my question is going to be

2 whether the uptick was sufficient to support your

3 hope for 80; but now you're down to 40, that's a

4 couple fewer than last time.

5 DEAN BECKMAN: It is.

6 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: Do you have projections

7 beyond that, for the next two or three years?

8 DEAN BECKMAN: We do.

9 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: What would they be?

10 DEAN BECKMAN: Will you give me a moment?

11 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: Sure.

12 DEAN BECKMAN: For the years following --

13 I want to make sure I have my years right -- next

14 year 40, the year after that 55, 55, 55, and 20, 20,

15 20. When I say that, what I'm talking about is full

16 time, part time. That's what I mean.

17 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: And do you have goals or

18 targets for the median 25th/75th LSAT?

19 DEAN BECKMAN: We do. As part of our

20 strategic planning was a desire to increase that.

21 So what we put in our strategic plan is -- I'll tell

22 you specifically what's in it -- yes, sir; under our

23 statistic plan, the law school shall increase the

24 entering academic credentials of the student body

25 over the next three years with LSAT and

ABA185


1 undergraduate GPA scores increasing in each cohort.

2 The goal under the strategic plan is to

3 have a median LSAT of 150 and a GPA of 3.2.

4 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: And that's what, in say

5 three years?

6 DEAN BECKMAN: Yes.

7 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: In the original pro

8 forma, I think the cumulative investment by the

9 University was projected to be about 4.5 million.

10 DEAN O'BRIEN: Ed, will you speak up,

11 please.

12 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: I'm sorry. In the

13 original pro forma, I think the cumulative

14 investment by the University was projected to be

15 about 4.5 million; is that correct?

16 DEAN BECKMAN: I believe that's correct.

17 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: It looks like in the new

18 operating budgets which have some projections out a

19 few years, that the cumulative never goes above

20 1.75; am I misreading it or is that correct?

21 DEAN BECKMAN: That the cumulative -- I

22 don't think I understand your question fully.

23 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: Instead of 4.5 million

24 as a cumulative investment by the University, it

25 peaks at about 1.75 and then starts going down.

ABA186


1 DEAN BECKMAN: Well, you're talking --

2 you're talking about net revenue, right? Is that

3 what you're talking about -- I mean --

4 DEAN HESS: Yes.

5 DEAN BECKMAN: It goes up every year and

6 then it plateaus. It goes up every year and

7 plateaus. Let me find the budget in the file.

8 DEAN HESS: The University's commitment

9 declines the law schools ability to --

10 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: Right, but I'm talking

11 about the cumulative University investment over the

12 years.

13 DEAN BECKMAN: The cumulative couldn't go

14 down that radically. I just want to make sure I

15 answer your question. The cumulative couldn't go

16 down.

17 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: I'm not saying it goes

18 down; I'm saying in the budget now the maximum looks

19 like 1.75, and the pro forma was 4.5.

20 DEAN BECKMAN: I'd have to look to tell

21 you because I just don't --

22 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: That's okay. Let me go

23 to a different topic.

24 DEAN BECKMAN: Yes, sir.

25 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: I understand you have

ABA187


1 this philosophy of kind of all hands on deck when it

2 comes to career services, career advice, academic

3 success, etc. And I guess my concern is, I'm

4 looking at -- and, again, this is coming from a

5 perspective of someone who's a dean and associate

6 dean, so this isn't from an oppressed faculty member

7 worrying about the workload.

8 I'm looking at faculty obligations. Three

9 classes per semester. When the externship program

10 starts, faculty members will be supervising

11 individual students and will be required to meet

12 with them for at least four hour per students.

13 Office hours are required -- five live, three

14 online. There's a group that chooses the embedded

15 turning point questions, there have to be 15 common

16 questions across the class. They have ten hours of

17 pro bono requirement. And then there's these

18 anonymous reviews of three colleagues that they have

19 to review the classes and write up all the things.

20 I'm just wondering after all of that, can

21 you really count on the faculty to fill in as a

22 career services resource and as an academic

23 assessment source. It just seems like they're

24 overloaded. And, in addition, create scholarships.

25 DEAN BECKMAN: Let me address that from

ABA188


1 two perspectives. First of all, the majority of all

2 those things you talked about were faculty created.

3 They created them. They can change them. I mean,

4 they did. They got together and they talked --

5 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: That's not my question,

6 Dean. Did they overburden themselves?

7 DEAN BECKMAN: Well, you know, they will

8 assess that, obviously, because that's part of our

9 assessment in strategic planning. We talked about

10 those things. You know, strategic planning happens

11 in room like this. We all get together. We talk

12 about things like that. One of the things

13 interestingly enough that comes up is, we have a

14 policy that they have to have their exams graded in

15 10 days. They created it. Because that's a burden

16 so, you know, what's interesting is, it comes up all

17 the time. Because when we first started, I think

18 policy was 30 days. And they'll complain about it,

19 but they won't change it.

20 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: I'm not worried about

21 that. My question is: Is it legitimate for you to

22 point to the faculty, who look relatively

23 overburdened, as supplementing your career services

24 office, supplementing your academic success program?

25 DEAN BECKMAN: First of all, it's built

ABA189


1 into our process and it's what happens. In other

2 words, the reality is -- and you've been doing this

3 a long time, and so I know that you know that you

4 have students that come to you all the time about

5 career questions and career choices. I do too.

6 It's what really happens in school. And so it's

7 effective.

8 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: But I also know that you

9 wouldn't say, therefore, we don't have to hire any

10 Career Services people?

11 DEAN BECKMAN: And that's not what we've

12 done. We've hired two, all right, that was

13 evidenced in the record. And I'm not sure what the

14 benchmark is. The Standard says an active Career

15 Services Department. We clearly have an active

16 Career Services Department. I don't think there's

17 any disputing that. If you want to use a benchmark

18 then we say, well, let's look at other schools.

19 Well, you know what, I did. And I can

20 tell you what the numbers are at every fourth-tier

21 school that reported. I can tell you what they are.

22 And they range from one up to, I think it was John

23 Marshall Atlanta that has 11 -- but that's an

24 extreme -- but most have one, two, and three. Most

25 have one, two, three. And these are fully

ABA190


1 accredited schools with graduates. We have two, we

2 have no graduates yet, and because we constantly

3 assess and reassess, if we need to add three or we

4 need to add four, part of assessment and planning

5 process is that very thing.

6 I can tell you that my budget -- the way

7 our budget works is, we create a budget, sit down

8 with the CFO -- and this is all in the documents,

9 okay, our detailed process is in the documents --

10 and then that goes to Dr. Dawson and Dr. Dawson

11 presents that to the Board.

12 And I've never sat down with Dr. Dawson or

13 the CFO and said, you know, I've got to have four

14 people and they said, no. I mean, I have a reason

15 for it. But they don't, you know, if you've got to

16 have a person and planning says we've got to have a

17 person, then we hire the person.

18 DEAN MELDRUM: Could I, sir, if I may. As

19 it relates to the three classes that you mentioned,

20 while that's our policy that allows us to provide

21 that many courses for faculty without overload pay,

22 we never have exceeded that amount. We've never had

23 to pay overload pay. We've never asked anyone to

24 teach over that. And I have only one time had one

25 professor who taught three courses, and she sits

ABA191


1 here now because she asked me to allow her to teach

2 an elective that she really wanted to teach.

3 All of our faculty thus far have only

4 taught two sections at one time, and all of our

5 sections are very small. The largest class that's

6 ever been taught had 65 students; but most of our

7 classes, as you can tell by the size of our cohort

8 are very small, especially our writing courses and

9 ASP. Those run, I think, 20 students per class. So

10 the burden is a bit diminished because of the size

11 of the class.

12 I would also say that we have an

13 externship director as well because our externship

14 program dovetails into our Career Services because

15 many of our interns, we've turned into externship

16 placement. So the two of those folks work hand in

17 hand. So when asked whether or not we have more

18 than one professional in the Career Services

19 Department, no, at that time we had a Career

20 Services director; but we also have an externship

21 director. The two of those gentlemen work together,

22 as well as the faculty and administrator.

23 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: Do they have an

24 administrative support?

25 DEAN MELDRUM: They do. As a matter of

ABA192


1 fact, they do.

2 DEAN BUTTERFOSS: Dedicated to those

3 offices?

4 DEAN MELDRUM: Let me think about this.

5 No, I would say, no. We have one administrative

6 assistant per five faculty members. And they're all

7 pretty technologically savvy, so many of them don't

8 rely on the faculty assistants at all; others, as

9 you can imagine, rely upon them more heavily, and

10 then all of the administrators. I also have an

11 assistant as does Dean Beckman, so we don't rely

12 upon the faculty assistants to help us.

13 DEAN BECKMAN: And I've got to tell you,

14 as part of our assessment we try to evaluate whether

15 those positions are over-tasked and so we're always

16 looking, well, should it be one per four, one per

17 three, or one per -- one per five is a pretty good

18 ratio compared to a lot of law schools.

19 DEAN O'BRIEN: We'll go to Raymond.

20 DEAN PIERCE: Dean, I have oftentimes been

21 heard to say -- I may my surprise some of my

22 colleagues with this on the Committee and the

23 Council -- I oftentimes say that who I admit into my

24 law school is not the ABA's business.

25 DEAN O'BRIEN: Raymond, you need you to

ABA193


1 speak up, please.

2 DEAN PIERCE: I said, Mr. Chairman, that I

3 oftentimes say that who I admit in my law school is

4 not the ABA's business; who I pass into the second

5 year and who I graduate is. And I say that within

6 the context of the fact that I note that in some of

7 your documents here that you included my law school

8 with respect to LSAT scores. And it's fairly

9 accurate, and it's quite consistent with the

10 demographics of the population that we have bestowed

11 near Lincoln law school which, of course, is tied

12 and related to segregation of this country.

13 But I look at page 24 of your response and

14 refer to Findings of Fact 40, 41 and 42. Our

15 academic dismissal policy is, if you don't have a

16 2.0 grade point average, you've got to go. No

17 questions asked. No appeal. No nothing. If you

18 don't have a 2.0, you're out. And you have to sit

19 out a year. You can petition for readmission, and

20 the chance for getting in are very, very small.

21 I asked my associate dean of academic

22 affairs, I think in my first or second year as the

23 Dean of the law school -- they had brought a student

24 who at the end of the first semester had a 1.6 GPA

25 and the young man wanted to stick it out. I asked

ABA194


1 my associate dean, I said, you know, what are the

2 odds? He said, Dean, 1.7 is about it, because

3 usually by a person can -- they might be able to get

4 2.3, average it out and make it to the second year.

5 But I see you've given a 1.2, a person can actually

6 hit a 1.2 -- and maybe I'm reading this wrong -- a

7 1.25 and still have the chance of going into the

8 semester, unless I'm reading it wrong. I just want

9 to know.

10 I mean, what evidence do you have, because

11 you didn't say it in here, what evidence do you have

12 that students at a 1.2 or a 1.3, or anywhere, can

13 actually hit a 2.8 the second semester to be able to

14 even out and be able to come there next year. And,

15 actually, what my associate dean told me was true

16 because I'm in my seventh year now, and when I see

17 students with 1.6s, 1.7s, I tell them, you may want

18 to leave now so that you don't incur any more debt

19 and put yourself in a financial situation -- which I

20 feel I actually have an obligation to do. So, I

21 mean, what -- help me out. What do you ask?

22 DEAN BECKMAN: Sure. A number of things.

23 First of all, what we started with was what most law

24 schools have, which is only if you get a 2.0; less

25 than a 2.0, you're on probation. And we have that.

ABA195


1 You get less than a 2.0 after your first semester,

2 then you're on probation for one semester; if you

3 can't bring it up, then you're gone.

4 We decided that -- again, as part of our

5 assessment mechanism -- that there were numbers

6 below which students could measure. We had very

7 limited data, but we looked at the data. We looked

8 at the grades. You've had the benefit of a lot of

9 history, so now go back -- as you said, you asked

10 your associate dean -- go back and tell me what

11 works and doesn't work and he came up with a figure.

12 We looked at the limited data we had to

13 come up with a figure so that we could set a

14 particular score below which they're gone. We did

15 that based on the data that we had, and we assess

16 that every single year to see where students are.

17 They're constantly -- if they're below a 2.0, as

18 part of that academic support, they're constantly

19 counseled -- it could be their advisor, it could be

20 Dean Meldrum -- but there's constant counseling on

21 where they are, what their numbers need to be and

22 that sort of thing. We try to look at what

23 contributed to those grades.

24 I think once you admit them, you have a

25 really strong obligation to them, and we want to do

ABA196


1 everything in our power to make them successful.

2 They've got to be able to pass and they've got to be

3 able to pass the bar, and those are two different

4 things because we now measure outputs at the ABA

5 level. Passing the bar is critical.

6 On the other hand, we want people to have

7 a fair shot and make sure that we have done

8 everything. So they get that extra semester if

9 they're on probation, if they've exceeded the 1.25.

10 It may be over time that we find, you know, academic

11 support works from a 1.7, but it doesn't work at a

12 1.699, and we may revise those numbers.

13 But what's important, I think, is that we

14 look at our history. We look at our population. We

15 see whether we're effective in our population

16 because our population isn't your population. And

17 the things that you do in your school for academic

18 support that may be incredibly successful, may not

19 work at our school.

20 And I see, you know, my sister teaches at

21 Southern as an adjunct, and they're an APCU. And

22 she's been there now for many, many years. And I

23 talk with her about the academic support they have

24 there, and it's very different because, again, it's

25 a Southern Louisiana population that works for them,

ABA197


1 that may not work for the folks in the Appalachian

2 region.

3 So we try to do, you know -- what's

4 important is, I agree you. We've got to look at it.

5 We've got to see what works and doesn't work. Even

6 when people are kicked out, if they try to get

7 readmitted -- and that's one of the issues that's

8 been in all the documents -- you know, these people,

9 and I've got stats on every one of them, but these

10 aren't people with a 1.5. This is a 1.993. Does

11 that mean he should have been readmitted? Well, our

12 Committee had a hearing, listened to the evidence,

13 followed the policy, had specific findings that that

14 student met the criteria for readmission. So there

15 was no one below a 1.8, nobody that was readmitted.

16 So that's not -- I don't know that that's actually

17 in the record.

18 DEAN PIERCE: A 1.2, that not ground in

19 cement, you may change that?

20 DEAN BECKMAN: Absolutely. I don't think

21 you'd go down; but, yeah, absolutely, it could go

22 up. Absolutely, if our data shows that people with

23 a 1.6 -- because that's the beauty of our process.

24 And the other thing that folds into that is this.

25 We have a very unique ability. We could look at a

ABA198


1 student and say that student has done exceptionally

2 well on the assessment mechanisms daily, but bomb

3 the final.

4 Now, we've got to look and say, well, is

5 it because they don't understand what they're

6 learning or is it because we have test-taking issues

7 or is it because we have writing issues related to

8 exams. We have more data than -- and, again, its

9 only limit in scope is time -- but that's an

10 incredible tool that over time will get us to what I

11 hope will be a very accurate number with regard to a

12 cut score for existing students they can't make it.

13 I don't want to keep them in if they can't

14 make it, there's no question; here's the thing

15 though, I don't want to kick them out if they can.

16 And it's a fine line, you know. You may have kicked

17 somebody out with a 1.6 that could have made it; you

18 might have.

19 DEAN PIERCE: All the time.

20 DEAN BECKMAN: But we don't want to.

21 DEAN MELDRUM: Dean, if I could also say

22 at a 1.25, when we first opened our doors, we

23 didn't have an automatic dismissal. And just like

24 your associate dean spoke to you, I went to the

25 faculty and I said, we need to have a cutoff at

ABA199


1 which we don't give these folks an opportunity for

2 probation unless there's something extraordinary.

3 And what we found, we've never readmitted an

4 automatic dismissal.

5 We wanted to have, I guess that safety

6 valve in case something truly horrific happened

7 where this person actually had the capacity -- maybe

8 they had an automobile accident or were treated for

9 cancer, something like that -- but I'll tell you,

10 I've never seen it in the few short years we've been

11 there. We've never readmitted anyone who got

12 automatically dismissed.

13 And those few students who have been

14 readmitted, they were very close to the 2.0. And I

15 can tell you that I go back and forth to both the

16 Admissions Committee and the Readmissions Committee

17 and I tell them how these folks are doing that you

18 all saw fit to readmit -- let will tell you how

19 they're doing on their turning point, let me tell

20 you how they're doing on their midterms -- so that

21 they can make informed decisions, and we can learn

22 from them.

23 DEAN PIERCE: Thank you.

24 DEAN O'BRIEN: Did you have a question,

25 Pauline?

ABA200


1 MS. SCHNEIDER: I just wanted to follow up

2 on that point. Just note that, obviously, you have

3 an experiment going on here and you've got a lot of

4 things that had to take into account and a lot of

5 things you want to value, but there's so much data

6 on what or how successful a student is at certain

7 levels of performance. So even as you want to help

8 people, it seems to me that you're adding an

9 additional burden to the school to be willing to

10 accept or readmit or allow the student to remain at

11 1.25 when the chances are extraordinary that they

12 will be able to succeed.

13 The other point is, they're probably

14 incurring debt along the way and so it's sort of a

15 burden, an additional burden you're putting on the

16 student because if they get dismissed, they may be

17 fortunate enough to have gotten a grant or have

18 money to pay their way through law school but many

19 of them don't, and so they're going to have an

20 additional burden and they have failed. They have

21 failed out of school and they have the burden of

22 debt, and you're telling me they're in Appalachia

23 and their prospects for employment are very

24 difficult. So you're adding to -- you're creating

25 additional problems, it seems to me.

ABA201


1 DEAN BECKMAN: Well, I think that first of

2 all, we have to reflect upon the fact that many of

3 our students, we believe, fulfill our mission to

4 serve the people of Appalachia. And we believe that

5 they should have the opportunity for an education.

6 And we know these students and we get to know these

7 students. It's a small cohort of students, and we

8 get to know them at a very deep level. And we can -

9 - it's not to mean that we can devine whether

10 they'll succeed or not, but what we do is a great

11 deal of counseling with them. We do debt

12 counseling, a lot of it, so that they understand

13 what it means to be in debt. They've got to do it

14 from the beginning to the end. It's required that

15 they go to debt counseling, so they understand what

16 that means.

17 Again, there isn't a Standard that says

18 your cut score need to be -- if they don't get a 1.5

19 or a 1.7, you should kick them out. The question is

20 whether or not we meet the Standards as written, and

21 we do we. We do. Most schools don't have cut

22 scores like that. I don't -- I don't, you know,

23 we've looked at lots and lots and lots of academic

24 policies.

25 And there are schools, such Dean Pierce's,

ABA202


1 that have cut scores and there are many schools --

2 most schools do not; so it wouldn't necessarily be

3 fair to say, well, you've got to have a cut score.

4 I think that exceeds the Standards. That said, if

5 we need to increase it, we'll increase it. We

6 didn't have one; we said that we needed one, we

7 added one. We need to bump it up, we'll absolutely

8 bump it up if we can find, in fact, our students

9 don't succeed.

10 But the advantage that we have is students

11 actually learn earlier, in some cases. You think

12 about it. We've had students that at the end of

13 their midterms, they didn't well, they did poorly.

14 They may not have done well on the interactive

15 piece. And they've come and they've said, you know,

16 I'm not sure this is right for me. So we've talked

17 about it, like if it's not right for you, that's

18 okay. So we've had that happen. That's a huge

19 benefit.

20 When most of us went to law school, we

21 didn't know the answer until we got our final exam

22 grade halfway into the next semester. That doesn't

23 happen here. It doesn't happen at all. Does that

24 answer your question, ma'am?

25 MS. SCHNEIDER: Yes.

ABA203


1 DEAN O'BRIEN: Are there any other

2 questions? Okay. Dean, our timekeeper, Ms.

3 Schrage, tells me you have 39 seconds; if you need

4 up to two minutes, we certainly would be happy to

5 accommodate that, but it's time for us to ask you to

6 close.

7 DEAN BECKMAN: Thank you, Chairman

8 O'Brien, I appreciate that very much. I think that

9 what I need to say is that we are in substantial

10 compliance with each of the Standards, with a plan

11 leading to full compliance within three years. And

12 that's the bottom line. We do meet our burden. We

13 have met the standards. We've built a good school.

14 That's what I'm supposed to say.

15 What I'm not supposed to say is that the

16 decision that this body makes today will have a

17 profound effect on some phenomenal students, people

18 you don't know, you don't see; we do. We've met our

19 burden. It's your obligation to review all of the

20 facts. We've given them to you, review them, we

21 stand upon them and reach your decision.

22 Thank you.

23 DEAN O'BRIEN: Thank you, Dean. We'll ask

24 the Committee to remain in place as you show

25 yourselves out. Thank you very much.

ABA204


1 (Whereupon, Exhibits 1 through 18, plus

2 the two handouts were retained by the ABA as these

3 had been previoulsy provided electronically.)

4 (Meeting concluded at 1:15 p.m.)

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

ABA205


1 CERTIFICATE

2

3 I, Valerie R. Allard, do hereby certify that pursuant

4 to the Rules of Civil Procedure, the witness named herein

5 appeared before me at the time and place set forth in the

6 caption herein; that at the said time and place, I

7 in stenotype all testimony adduced and other oral

8 proceedings had in the foregoing matter; and that the

9 foregoing transcript pages constitute a full, true and

10 correct record of such testimony adduced and oral

11 had and of the whole thereof.

12

13 IN WITNESS HEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this

14 8th day of December, 2011.

15

16

17

18

19

20 /Signed ____

21 Valerie R. Allard

22

23

24

25

ABA206

AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION COUNCIL MEETING2011cv00608/62744/21/5.pdf · AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION...

Documents

Transcript of AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION COUNCIL MEETING2011cv00608/62744/21/5.pdf · AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION...