Post on 04-Jun-2018
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11/2001 VHS Auto 1
Point type Ignition Flow Chart
Auto 2Trouble Shooting
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11/2001 VHS Auto 2
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11/2001 VHS Auto 3
Fixing something that is broken
How can you fix something efficientlyif youdont even know how it is broken?
To troubleshoot something that doesnt workcorrectly you need:
To know how it is suppose to work
The basics of how it works
Critical thinking comparing what isnt working to howit is suppose to work
A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of theproblem
Proper tools
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11/2001 VHS Auto 4
Trouble shooting
If you had never seen an apple, never read
about an apple, and no one had ever told
you anything about an apple, it would very
difficult for you to tell me what is wrong
with these apples.
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11/2001 VHS Auto 5
Trouble shooting
It would even be more difficult for you to
tell me how to fix what is wrong with these
apples
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11/2001 VHS Auto 6
Trouble shooting for no spark
In the same way, if you havent learned how wemake spark in the ignition system, it will bevery difficult for you to figure out why anengine doesnt have spark
If you dont know the basics of electricity, itwill be very difficult for you to diagnose what iswrong
If you dont know how to use test equipment, itwill be very difficult for you to find yourproblem
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11/2001 VHS Auto 7
Logical testing & elimination
Hopefully you learned by now:How the primary ignition system works to
make spark
Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and
can apply the knowledge
How to select the proper electrical measuring
tools and how to use them
So now we need to learn how to use aprocess of elimination to diagnose a vehicle
that doesnt have spark
8/13/2019 Point Type Ignition Flow Ch
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11/2001 VHS Auto 8
There is usually more that one
rightway to fix something
The flow chart I have made for point type
ignition is just the way that is logical and
works efficiently for me
By no means is it the only way
Since we dont have a lot of experience yet
with diagnosis, lets use my method for
logically eliminating all the causes of an
ignition system that is not working correctly
8/13/2019 Point Type Ignition Flow Ch
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11/2001 VHS Auto 9
Primary Ignition
We had better know bynow:
Key on, points on,primary current flows
and creates a magneticfield around primarywinding of coil
Points open, magnetic
field crashes inducinghigh voltage intosecondary windingcreating spark
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11/2001 VHS Auto 10
Draw primary ignition on back of
flow chart fairly large
+ -
RUN
+-
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11/2001 VHS Auto 11
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 12
Using remote starter to crank
B+
S
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11/2001 VHS Auto 13
Make sure you are checking at the proper end of wire
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11/2001 VHS Auto 14
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
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11/2001 VHS Auto 15
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
With key on, Is
There power to +
Side of coil?
NO
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11/2001 VHS Auto 16
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
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11/2001 VHS Auto 17
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11/2001 VHS Auto 18
Making sure test light works
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11/2001 VHS Auto 19
Points closed
Points open
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11/2001 VHS Auto 20
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
If we didnt have power to + sideof coil, what would be the causes?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 21
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
With key on, Is
There power to +
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,
wiring to +
side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
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11/2001 VHS Auto 22
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
If you have power to coil positive
Then you know this side of circuit
Is doing its job and we can moveonWhat should we
Check next ?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 23
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
With key on, Is
There power to +
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,
wiring to +
side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
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11/2001 VHS Auto 24
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
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11/2001 VHS Auto 25
Must have primary wires for coil hooked up
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11/2001 VHS Auto 26
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
With key on, Is
There power to +
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,
wiring to +
side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
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11/2001 VHS Auto 27
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
When we crank the engine
What should the points do?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 28
Must have primary wires for coil hooked up
CRANKCRANKCRANK CRANKCRANKCRANK
CRANKCRANK
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11/2001 VHS Auto 29
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
YES
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
With key on, Is
There power to +
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,
wiring to +
side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
NO
STAYS OFF
(NO VOLTAGE)
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11/2001 VHS Auto 30
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
So while cranking the engine
The light stays off
How much voltage should be left on the - side of
Coil with the points closed and current flowing?How much voltage should be on the - side of
Coil with the points open?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 31
Write on back of flow chart
With voltage to + side of coil, there areonly four things that will cause no voltage
to - side of coil while cranking (light stays off)
1. Points always closed
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11/2001 VHS Auto 32
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What else would cause
The light to stay off?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 33
Write on back of flow chart
With voltage to + side of coil there are
only four things that will cause no voltage
to - side of coil while cranking (light stays off)
1. Points always closed
2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil
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11/2001 VHS Auto 34
Open Primary windingDont forget to isolate one side of the coil
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11/2001 VHS Auto 35
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What else would cause
The light to stay off?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 36
Write on back of flow chart
With voltage to + side of coil there are
only four things that will cause no voltage
to - side of coil while cranking (light stays off)
1. Points always closed
2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil
3. Grounded condenser
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11/2001 VHS Auto 37
Grounded condenser
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11/2001 VHS Auto 38
Checking a good condenser
It will
charge
up and goto infinite
resistance.
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11/2001 VHS Auto 39
Write on back of flow chart
With voltage to + side of coil there are
only four things that will cause no voltage
to - side of coil while cranking (light stays off)
1. Points always closed
2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil
3. Grounded condenser
4. Grounded wire between coil - and points
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11/2001 VHS Auto 40
Shorted primary wire to ground
Ch ki C ti l I iti S t
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11/2001 VHS Auto 41
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
YES
Is there spark
while cranking?
With key on, Is
There power to +
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,
wiring to +
side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
NO Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
Lets continue on
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11/2001 VHS Auto 42
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
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11/2001 VHS Auto 43
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
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11/2001 VHS Auto 44
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
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11/2001 VHS Auto 45
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for a
grounded condenser
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11/2001 VHS Auto 46
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for a
grounded condenser
BAD
Replace
GOOD
Primary wire between
- side of coil and
points is grounded Repair
Th k f
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11/2001 VHS Auto 47
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for a
grounded condenser
BAD
Replace
GOOD
Primary wire between
- side of coil and
points is grounded Repair
That takes care of
The staying off side
#1
#2
#3
#4
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11/2001 VHS Auto 48
Crank engine, does test
light blink on - side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for a
grounded condenser
BAD
Replace
GOOD
Primary wire between
- side of coil and
points is grounded Repair
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
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11/2001 VHS Auto 49
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark
while cranking?
With key on, Is
There power to +
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,
wiring to +
side of coil or
ign switch is open
NOIs there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
P i i iti
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11/2001 VHS Auto 50
Primary ignition
circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 51
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: does
Test light blink on
- side of coil?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 52
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
When we crank the engine
What should the points do?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 53
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
So while cranking the engine
The light stays on
How much voltage should be left on the - side of
Coil with the points closed and current flowing?How much voltage should be on the - side of
Coil with the points open?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 54
Write on back of flow chart
There are only three things that will cause
voltage all the time to - side of coil while
cranking (light stays on)
1. Points always open
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11/2001 VHS Auto 55
Point always open
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11/2001 VHS Auto 56
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What Else would
Cause the light
To say on ?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 57
Write on back of flow chart
There are only three things that will cause
voltage all the time to - side of coil while
cranking (light stays on)
1. Points always open
2. Open primary wire between - coil and points
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11/2001 VHS Auto 58
Open primary wire
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11/2001 VHS Auto 59
Primary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What Else would
Cause the light
To say on ?
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11/2001 VHS Auto 60
Write on back of flow chart
There are only three things that will cause
voltage all the time to - side of coil while
cranking (light stays on)
1. Points always open
2. Open primary wire between - coil and points
3. Points not grounded or contacts bad
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11/2001 VHS Auto 61
Points not grounded
Is there power to the
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11/2001 VHS Auto 62
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: does
Test light blink on
- side of coil?
NO
Are pointsalways open?
Is there power to the
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11/2001 VHS Auto 63
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: does
Test light blink on
- side of coil?
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NO
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
- side of coil and points
Check & repair
Is there power to theIf the light blinks
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11/2001 VHS Auto 64
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: does
Test light blink on
- side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
- side of coil and points
Check & repair
If the light blinks
while cranking. .
GREAT
It has to blink
To have spark
Is there power to theIf the light blinks
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11/2001 VHS Auto 65
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: does
Test light blink on
- side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
- side of coil and points
Check & repair
If the light blinks
and the dwell is
set correctly
Is there spark?YES
GREAT If vehicle
wont start, restart
at top of flow chart
Is there power to theIf still no spark
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11/2001 VHS Auto 66
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: does
Test light blink on
- side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
- side of coil and points
Check & repair
If still no spark
Is there spark?YES
GREAT If vehicle
wont start, restart
at top of flow chart
NO
Test coil & coil wire
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11/2001 VHS Auto 67
Checking Coil Wire
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11/2001 VHS Auto 68
Open Secondary Winding
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Is there power to the
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11/2001 VHS Auto 70
Is there power to the
- side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: does
Test light blink on
- side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
- side of coil and points
Check & repair
Is there spark?
YES
GREAT If vehicle
wont start, restart
at top of flow chart
NO
Test coil & coil wire
BAD
Replace
GOOD
Condenser is either openor not rounded Re air
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11/2001 VHS Auto 71
Checking a good condenser
It will
charge
up and goto infinite
resistance.
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11/2001 VHS Auto 72
Open condenser
It wont
charge up.
Always atinfinite
resistance.
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11/2001 VHS Auto 73
Condenser not hooked to ground
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11/2001 VHS Auto 74
Weak Spark
Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000
volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least
and be blue in color
Lets write this up at the to right of flow chart Weak spark can be caused by:
Dwell out of specs
Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)
Bad condenser
Pitted points that arc
NEW PITTED
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11/2001 VHS Auto 75
We should be able to succeed
Next time we are in the shop, you will have50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehiclethat the customer complains of a NO START
It will have at least one problem in theprimary ignition system that causes nospark
You will also be responsible to make surethe dwell is set correctly before you give itback to the customer
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11/2001 VHS Auto 76
Questions?
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
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11/2001 VHS Auto 77
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
YES
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11/2001 VHS Auto 78
Spark at coil wire
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
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11/2001 VHS Auto 79
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
Fuel system must
be in order
Is there spark at
one or two plug wires?
YES
S k l i
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11/2001 VHS Auto 80
Spark at plug wire
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
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11/2001 VHS Auto 81
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
Fuel system must
be in order
Is there spark at
one or two plug wires?
NO
Repair bad
cap or rotor
YES
Bad cap and bad rotor
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11/2001 VHS Auto 82
p
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
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11/2001 VHS Auto 83
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
Fuel system must
be in order
Is there spark at
one or two plug wires?
NO
Repair bad
cap or rotor
YES
Make sure firing
order is correct
Is distributorin time?
YES
Firing order and distributor in time
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11/2001 VHS Auto 84
Firing order and distributor in time
Firing OrderHave to know which way distributor rotates
Have to know firing order
Have to know where #1 plug it
Distributor in time
Remove #1 plug and start upon compression
stroke
Turn by hand (less than turn) to TDC
See if rotor is point to #1 on cap
Fi i d
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11/2001 VHS Auto 85
Firing order
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
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11/2001 VHS Auto 86
Is there spark from coil
wire while cranking?
Fuel system must
be in order
Is there spark at
one or two plug wires?
NO
Repair bad
cap or rotor
YES
Make sure firing
order is correct
Is distributorin time?
YES NO
Correct
Ifstill have spark but wont start, check for
mechanical problems (compression)
YES
C t l ti
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11/2001 VHS Auto 87
Congratulations
Once we learn fuel systems, you should be
able to efficientlydiagnosis why a car with
point type ignition wont start
i
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Questions?