WORKING GROUP GT 1- 8

(CIP / SAAMI)

Presented by Roger Hancox. 1

CIP/ SAAMI MEETINGS 2016/2017

Ø  June 2016 (USA), attended by Mr. R. Mabbitt & Mr. S. Perry.

Ø  JANUARY 2017 (USA), attended by Mr. R. Mabbitt

Ø  MARCH 2017 (IWA, Germany) attended by members of the working group GT 1-8.

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The seventh meeting of the working group GT 1-8, chaired by Mr. Hancox was held on Friday the 3rd of March 2017. Attended by (10) CIP members and (8) SAAMI members. The following agenda items were discussed.

March 2017 IWA Meeting.

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Agenda Topics

Ø  Presentation and questions Mauro Silvis Director of ANPAM- European proposed amendments to the Firearms Protocol.

Mr. M. Silvis delivered a PowerPoint presentation relating to the recent proposed amendments to firearms protocols in Europe, the main point being.

“All essential components of a firearm should be marked with a clear, permanent and unique marking and registered in the data-filing systems of the Member States in accordance with Directive”.

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� SAAMI/CIP new/ revised calibers

CIP

o  40-65 Win

o  45-110 Sharps

o  45-120 Sharps 3 1/4

o  50-70 Government

o  50-90 Sharps

SAMMI

o  6.5-284 Norma – Status of Nosler supplied V&P Test Barrels

o  280 Ackley Improved, SAAMI accepted January 2008

o  30 AR Rem, SAAMI accepted June 2009

o  20 Nosler, SAAMI accepted January 2017

o  22 Nosler, SAAMI accepted January 2017

o  24 Nosler, new cartridge/chamber introduction January 2017, review period open until June 2017.

o  6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, SAAMI accepted June 2016 5

� 6.5-284 Norma – Status of Nosler supplied V&P Test Barrels

Mr. S. Perry gave an overview in relation to the 6.5-284 Norma project.

Nosler USA has approached CIP in order to ascertain the correct P-max produced for their ammunition under the CIP system of measurement. To obtain good results the tests will be conducted in a similar manner to that of SAAMI reference ammunition system e.g. there will be three independent CIP laboratories conducting the testing, each having the same barrels and ammunition from the same Lot.

The project will hopefully prove a good adjunct to the CIP “Best Ever” ring tests, where barrels produced by hammer forging will be used, as the barrels for the 6.5-284 Norma testing will be from a single producer, but still using a traditional reamer.

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� CIP/ SAAMI Head Space

Mr. R. Hancox informed the meeting participants that he had taken over the Chairmanship of the CIP Headspace Working Group with the sole aim of CIP bringing their maximum headspace tolerances into line with SAAMI’s target headspaces.

Citing the work CIP had previously conducted in relation to this matter, which had concluded that incrementing headspace from the CIP tolerances to SAAMI had no adverse effects.

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Here you can actually see SAAMI manufacturers target production headspace, which even for rimless calibres (the highest tolerance) would only effectively be 0.178 mm after firing. Rounded up, this figure is only 0.08mm above that currently accepted by the CIP. 8

CIP & SAAMI Steel Shot (and other non-lead) Regulations

�  The data you are about to see represents the performance in velocity and momentum terms, of

the current shot shell products of Remington and Federal, supplied By SAAMI prior to the March 2016 CIP SAAMI meeting in Nuremberg. We were informed that this data supports Winchester’s then current products too.

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�  The velocity column and the momentum column indicates in red those products which exceed the current CIP High Performance regulations for non-lead shot.

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�  This includes 12-76 as well as 12-89 chamber length ammunition and other gauges.

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�  This ammunition is safely used in the US and other non-CIP member countries in US made and other makes of shotguns and would be safe to use in similar guns in CIP member states.

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�  The GT1-8 Committee wish to reconvene the non-lead working group for the purpose of revising the CIP regulations accordingly and decisions general which they believe to be over complicated.

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Ø  CIP & SAAMI Steel Shot (and other non-lead) Regulations

Ø  The current CIP regulation for 12 x 76 Maximum Velocity = 430 m/s (1411 fps) maximum momentum = 15.0 Ns

Ø  The current CIP regulation for 12 x 89 Maximum Velocity is 430 m/s (1411 fps) maximum momentum = 19.0 Ns

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� Draft template/ protocol for sharing new cartridge introductions.

Mr. R. Bimson presented to CIP a copy of the SAAMI “Draft Template” which SAAMI use for new cartridge introductions. This matter had previously been discussed between Mr. A. Chabotier and Mr. R. Bimson as possible way forward for a conjoined CIP/SAAMI approach to sharing data when introducing new calibres in the future.

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� Bullet set back and bullet-pull force relative to cartridges used in tubular magazine rifles

SAAMI raised concerns over CIP produced ammunition that could be used in arms with tubular magazines e.g. the .44 magnum round, is often used for level action rifles as well as revolvers. SAAMI manufacturers who are familiar with this practise crimp the bullet into the case, so as to stop bullet set back when loaded into a tubular magazine.

Previous testing in the USA has revealed that in some instances the pressures produced from ammunition that has been subjected to bullet set back can be as much or even exceed Proof pressures.

 

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Ø  Comparison with CIP P-max & SAAMI MPLM

Certain SAAMI calibres, have a higher MPLM than the CIP P-max, and are therefore likely to be manufactured with pressures very close to the CIP limit. This coupled with CIP Proof Houses pressure measurement variation could mean that whilst such ammunition would pass at one CIP Proof House it may fail at another. Mr. Hancox requested from SAAMI a list of calibres for which the SAAMI MPLM was higher than the CIP P-max so as to allow the CIP Proof House concerned with ammunition approval to concentrate on these calibres in particular.

The attached tables for rifle ammunition were prepared by Alan Serven of Remington. They can be accessed from the BOPB as they are attached to the meeting notes of the 2017 CIP/ SAAMI meeting in March.

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Centerfire Rifle Only Sorted by P(max) as a percentage of MPLM

(UPDATED 27-FEB-2017)  

INACTIVE CARTRIDGE  

ADDED 02-27-2017   SAAMI       - - - - CIP Specs - - - -  

Type   Caliber  P(max) as % of MPLM  

MPLM Piezo, psi      

P(max) (psi)  

Pk (psi)   Method   Loc (in)  

Pmax (bars)  

Pk (bars)  

Xducer Loc mm  

CFR   405 WIN   75.3%   472       355   409   Drilled   0.98   2450   2818   25.00  

CFR   221 REM FIREBALL   75.5%   615       464   534   Drilled   0.69   3200   3680   17.50  

CFR   257 ROBERTS +P   86.5%   595       515   592   Drilled   0.98   3550   4083   25.00  

CFR   22 HORNET   86.7%   502       435   500   Drilled   0.69   3000   3450   17.50  

CFR   22-250 REM   88.2%   666       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

CFR   416 RIGBY   88.4%   533       471   542   Drilled   0.98   3250   3738   25.00  

CFR   35 WHELEN   91.2%   636       580   667   Drilled   0.98   4000   4600   25.00  

CFR   338 LAPUA MAG   91.5%   666       609   701   Drilled   0.98   4200   4830   25.00  

CFR   257 ROBERTS   92.9%   554       515   592   Drilled   0.98   3550   4083   25.00  

CFR   470 NITRO EXP   93.2%   420       392   450   Drilled   0.98   2700   3105   25.00  

CFR   270 WIN   93.6%   666       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   338 RUGER CMPCT MAG   93.6%   666       624   722   Drilled   0.98   4300   4975   25.00  

CFR   416 REM MAG   93.6%   666       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   6MM REM   93.6%   666       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   308 WIN   94.6%   636       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   264 WIN MAG   95.1%   656       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   300 WIN MAG   95.1%   656       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   338 WIN MAG   95.1%   656       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   300 AAC BLACKOUT   95.1%   564       537   617   Drilled   0.69   3700   4255   17.50  

CFR   17 REM   95.4%   646       616   709   Drilled   0.98   4250   4888   25.00  

CFR   280 REM   95.5%   615       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

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CFR   30-06 SPRG   95.5%   615       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

CFR   300 REM SA UM   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   300 RUGER CMPCT MAG   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   300 WBY MAG   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   338 REM UM   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   375 REM UM   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   7MM REM SA UM   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   7MM REM UM   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   7MM WBY MAG   95.8%   666       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   9.3x62   95.9%   590       566   650   Drilled   0.98   3900   4485   25.00  

CFR   7MM-08 REM   96.3%   625       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   223 WSSM   96.9%   666       645   742   Drilled   0.98   4450   5118   25.00  

CFR   243 WSSM   96.9%   666       645   742   Drilled   0.98   4450   5118   25.00  

CFR   25 WSSM   96.9%   666       645   742   Drilled   0.98   4450   5118   25.00  

CFR   270 WSM   96.9%   666       645   742   Drilled   0.98   4450   5118   25.00  

CFR   300 WSM   96.9%   666       645   742   Drilled   0.98   4450   5118   25.00  

CFR   325 WSM   96.9%   666       645   742   Drilled   0.98   4450   5118   25.00  

CFR   7MM WSM   96.9%   666       645   742   Drilled   0.98   4450   5118   25.00  

CFR   30 THOM CTR   96.9%   636       616   709   Drilled   0.98   4250   4888   25.00  

CFR   458 LOTT   97.3%   641       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   375 RUGER   97.5%   636       620   713   Drilled   0.98   4275   4916   25.00  

CFR   300 REM UM   97.6%   666       650   747   Drilled   0.98   4480   5152   25.00  

CFR   224 WBY MAG   97.6%   654       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   17 REM FIREBALL   97.7%   564       551   634   Drilled   0.69   3800   4370   17.50  

CFR   243 WIN   97.9%   615       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   260 REM   97.9%   615       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   370 SAKO MAG (9.3x66 Sako)   97.9%   615       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   220 SWIFT   98.1%   636       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   375 H&H MAG   98.1%   636       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

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CFR   376 STEYR   98.1%   636       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   416 RUGER   98.1%   636       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   308 MARLIN EXPRESS   98.3%   487       479   550   Drilled   0.98   3300   3795   25.00  

CFR   338 MARLIN EXPRESS   98.3%   472       464   534   Drilled   0.98   3200   3680   25.00  

CFR   300 PEGASUS   99.1%   656       650   747   Drilled   0.98   4480   5152   25.00  

CFR   450 BUSHMASTER   99.1%   395       392   450   Drilled   0.98   2700   3105   25.00  

CFR   6.5 CREEDMOOR   99.2%   636       631   726   Drilled   0.98   4350   5003   25.00  

CFR   257 WBY MAG   99.6%   641       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   270 WBY MAG   99.6%   641       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   340 WBY MAG   99.6%   641       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   204 RUGER   99.6%   590       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

CFR   7MM REM MAG   99.8%   625       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   6.5-284 NORMA   99.9%   595       595   684   Drilled   0.98   4100   4715   25.00  

CFR   7MM STW   100.2%   666       667   767   Drilled   0.98   4600   5290   25.00  

CFR   8MM REM MAG   100.2%   666       667   767   Drilled   0.98   4600   5290   25.00  

CFR   25-06 REM   101.0%   646       653   751   Drilled   0.98   4500   5175   25.00  

CFR   458 WIN MAG   101.4%   615       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   32 WIN SPL   102.6%   431       442   509   Drilled   0.98   3050   3508   25.00  

CFR   500 NITRO EXPRESS 3"   102.8%   395       406   467   Drilled   0.98   2800   3220   25.00  

CFR   222 REM MAG   104.1%   564       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

CFR   6.8MM REM SPC   104.1%   564       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

CFR   17 HORNET   104.6%   513       537   617   Drilled   0.69   3700   4255   17.50  

CFR   222 REM   104.6%   513       537   617   Drilled   0.98   3700   4255   25.00  

CFR   300 H&H MAG   104.8%   595       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   303 BRITISH   105.2%   503       529   609   Drilled   0.98   3650   4198   25.00  

CFR   6.5 x 55MM SWED   105.4%   523       551   634   Drilled   0.98   3800   4370   25.00  

CFR   7X64 BRENNEKE   106.7%   564       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   7-30 WATERS   107.0%   461       493   567   Drilled   0.98   3400   3910   25.00  

CFR   30-30 WIN   107.7%   431       464   534   Drilled   0.98   3200   3680   25.00  

CFR   7MM MAUSER   108.2%   523       566   650   Drilled   0.98   3900   4485   25.00  

CFR   300 SAVAGE   109.8%   482       529   609   Drilled   0.98   3650   4198   25.00  

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CFR   44 REM MAG   110.1%   369       406   464   Drilled   0.69   2800   3200   17.50  

CFR   6.5 GRENDEL   110.2%   533       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

CFR   223 REM   110.6%   564       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   284 WIN   111.2%   574       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   45-70 GOVT   111.2%   287       319   367   Drilled   0.98   2200   2530   25.00  

CFR   7.62 X 39MM   111.7%   461       515   592   Drilled   0.98   3550   4083   25.00  

CFR   30 CARBINE   113.2%   410       464   534   Drilled   0.69   3200   3680   17.50  

CFR   35 REM   116.3%   343       399   459   Drilled   0.98   2750   3163   25.00  

CFR   444 MARLIN   119.5%   431       515   592   Drilled   0.98   3550   4083   25.00  

CFR   44-40 WIN   141.2%   113       160   183   Drilled   0.69   1100   1265   17.50  

CFR   8MM MAUSER   153.5%   359       551   634   Drilled   0.98   3800   4370   25.00  

CFR   38-40 WIN       N/E       167   192   Drilled   0.69   1150   1323   17.50  

CFR   32-20 WIN       N/E       305   350   Drilled   0.69   2100   2415   17.50  

CFR   32-40 WIN       N/E       341   392   Drilled   0.98   2350   2703   25.00  

CFR   38-55 WIN       N/E       348   400   Drilled   0.98   2400   2760   25.00  

CFR   25-20 WIN       N/E       392   450   Drilled   0.69   2700   3105   17.50  

CFR   25-35 WIN       N/E       442   509   Drilled   0.98   3050   3508   25.00  

CFR   218 BEE       N/E       464   534   Drilled   0.69   3200   3680   17.50  

CFR   348 WIN       N/E       464   534   Drilled   0.98   3200   3680   25.00  

CFR   30-40 KRAG       N/E       471   542   Drilled   0.98   3250   3738   25.00  

CFR   250 SAVAGE       N/E       529   609   Drilled   0.98   3650   4198   25.00  

CFR   225 WIN       N/E       566   650   Drilled   0.98   3900   4485   25.00  

CFR   358 WIN       N/E       587   676   Drilled   0.98   4050   4658   25.00  

CFR   307 WIN       N/E       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   356 WIN       N/E       602   692   Drilled   0.98   4150   4773   25.00  

CFR   350 REM MAG       N/E       624   717   Drilled   0.98   4300   4945   25.00  

CFR   6.5MM REM MAG       N/E       631   726   Drilled   0.98   4350   5003   25.00  

CFR   240 WBY MAG       N/E       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   30-378 WBY MAG       N/E       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   338-378 WBY MAG       N/E       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   375 WIN       N/E       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   378 WBY MAG       N/E       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   416 WBY MAG       N/E       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

CFR   460 WBY MAG       N/E       638   734   Drilled   0.98   4400   5060   25.00  

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THE END

Thank you for your attention.

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