wordsandactions12342078.files.wordpress.com€¦ · Web viewFile name:WAA ep 8 V1 Audio Length:...

File name: WAA ep 8 V1 Audio Length: 0:38:39Date transcribed: 9 April 2019

Jingle [0:00:00 - 0:00:13]

Bernard: Hello everyone and welcome to a new episode of our Words & Actions

podcast, where we look at the importance of language in business,

politics and beyond, as you know by now.

The topic of today's podcast is an interesting one. Leadership and the

role of language and communication in establishing leadership. The

first question we need to address is, "What is leadership? What does it

mean to be a leader? What are the characteristics of a leader?"

And as a listener, you might be wondering at this stage, "Am I a leader

or not?" Answering this question does make you do a bit of soul-

searching because, even if the answer is yes, then you can start

asking further questions. "What type of leader am I? How do I

negotiate leadership?"

It's high time we introduced the other hosts of this show, Erika Darics

and Veronika Koller. I will ask you the same question, Veronika, are

you a leader?

Veronika: Yes. I won't elaborate on it now because this podcast is not about me,

really. (Laughter) So, I'll pass over to Erika.

Bernard: Hello, Erika.

Erika: Hi, everyone. Okay, I will avoid the answer but I will just say that,

when we tend to think of leadership, we tend to think of grand

personas and well-known people from the corporate world or politics.

When I ask this question of my students, they often say things like, "A

leader is someone who can motivate others, who can get others

behind them or behind an idea." Or, "A leader is a guru. A visionary."

Of course, leaders are stereotypically men.

1

www.transcriptioncentre.co.uk

Veronika: Yeah. I guess that's still, really, very much a cultural concept that we

have, right? That leadership is really viewed as something if not male

then at least masculine. Yeah.

Bernard: Erika, when you ask your students to give examples, what do you get

then? Is that Elon Musk, for instance? Or Bill Gates?

Erika: Steve Jobs. Yes, exactly.

Bernard: But never a woman?

Erika: Some are seeping in. Angela Merkel came up.

Veronika: Oh, okay.

Erika: Yes. But I wanted to check on this and I did a quick Google Image

search. So, I searched for words like, "boss." What do you think I

found?

Veronika: I don't know. Some guy in a pinstriped suit? Or some guy in jeans and

a T-Shirt, depending on the industry.

Erika: Oh, no, no. Suit, it was.

Bernard: Bruce Springsteen, the boss? (Laughter)

Veronika: The boss! That would be the jeans and T-Shirt bit, yes! (Laughter)

Erika: Yeah, no... Most of the images had the typical white male in a suit.

Interestingly, there were some other images of women but these

images were mostly schematic or symbolic. Very interestingly, I

thought they were also reinforcing this male stereotype because these

women were helping each other. Either pulling... One woman pulling

up the other on this symbolic hill or one woman pushing up the other.

One of the things that also came up was an empowering campaign for

International Women's Day from a brand that we've already talked

about. BIC, the pen manufacturer.

Veronika: The stationery and the pens. Yeah. Oh yeah, when did we talk about

them? What episode was that? Yeah, we talked about how they had

2


these completely uselessly gendered pens, you know? Specific pens

for women or something like that.

Bernard: True. True.

Veronika: I remember.

Erika: Exactly.

Veronika: What did they do this time? (Laughter)

Erika: Okay. This was a campaign which was supposed to empower women.

It was an advert with a woman, arms folded, arms crossed, in a white

suit, and the image had four lines next to it.

So, I'll read the first two and I would like to ask you... maybe Bernard,

this is going to be a good one for you to tell me what you think.

Bernard: Ooh. Okay.

Erika: Four lines. The first go, "Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a...?"

Bernard: Pro.

Erika: A pro? And what do you think, Veronika, is the last one? "Work like

a..."?

Veronika: Horse. (Laughter)

Erika: A horse! (Laughter) Okay!

Bernard: I had beast in mind. But yeah, a horse is fine.

Veronika: Yeah. It's not too far away, is it? So, what is it really, Erika? What is it

really?

Erika: It was, "Think like a man, work like a boss."

Bernard: Oh.

Veronika: Oh wow. Okay.

Bernard: That's pretty bad.

3


Veronika: So, one thing you can... You can be a girl, a lady, a man and a boss.

But you can't be a woman if you're a leader. I see. Right. So, that's the

subliminal message here, right?

Erika: Yes. And also, you can't do all those things at the same time. So, you

can't be a lady and a boss at the same time because you have to act

like one and work like the other.

Veronika: Yes, there's that. So, perhaps... They put their foot in again, I think.

Bernard: That reminds me of leadership styles that you can find a lot about in

the leadership literature. I think you also have that kind of stereotyping

going on there. Male versus female. But the basic types that we have

or the styles that we have are described as being transactional, on the

one hand, and relational on the other hand. Both are said to have

specific features when it comes to communicating in actual behaviour.

So, transactional... That would be more controlled or controlling and

authoritative. Perhaps even aggressive. So, the kind of things... What

would you associate that with, Veronika and Erika? In terms of

leadership behaviour and stereotypes? A man or a woman?

Veronika: Culturally, in terms of the cultural stereotype, this sort of competitive

and dominant behaviour is associated with masculinity, isn't it?

Bernard: Yeah.

Erika: Yeah.

Veronika: You've got your typical, power-craving boss. In one episode we talked

about how Walt Disney was routinely shouting at employees. Do you

remember? And that's sort of the image that comes to mind.

Bernard: Yeah. So, that would still be the main perception, I think. Yes, indeed.

Veronika: Yeah. Then you get this other style that's called, "relational". There,

you have, basically... In this concept, you have the opposite, then. So,

you have somebody who is really people oriented, gentle and

collaborative. And yes, we need to say it, nurturing.

4


Bernard: Oh, yeah.

Veronika: And requesting solutions rather than imposing them, etc. This would

also be reflected, then, in how these people communicate. A very

transactional leader might be more prone to interrupting others and

giving orders. Whereas perhaps a relational leader is more likely to

ask questions of others, you know?

Bernard: I see. But of course, in real life, people will have to use the right

strategy or perhaps shift between them. Nowadays, unfortunately, we

have this kind of global crisis situation where you actually see

examples of leadership, right?

Veronika: Or lack thereof, sometimes. Yes.

Bernard: Well, indeed.

Veronika: So, you're absolutely right. That any good leader will adapt their style

as the situation requires. And you're right, in a crisis situation, that's a

good context to spot leadership, really.

Erika: I guess we don't have to go very far to spot these instances of

leadership. The Guardian has just reported on this interesting

observation that, when Boris Johnson, on 18 March, broadcast his

press conference, over 10 million people tuned in. So, people are

looking for leadership in the context of a crisis. This Coronavirus

pandemic is certainly one. People even go to the traditional channels

and traditional genres to listen to him.

Veronika: Yes, like radio and telly. Not just go on social media to find out about it.

That's really interesting, yeah.

Erika: Right. So, another leader... This is a female leader, the Scottish First

Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Her message to the nation was very

interesting. I found that quite reassuring. She was very clearly telling

people what to do.

She said things like, "Older people, we are asking you to stay away

from your grandkids and the people who you love. Children, please

5


study and do your homework but also don't forget to have fun." She

says, "Let's all look out for each other at times of crisis." So, her

message was very clear and, because of that clarity, seemed to be

easier to follow.

Veronika: She had three requests in there, right? "We're asking you to do this".

And then you have very clear directives. "Wash your hands, do your

homework" etc., so that it couldn't be clearer, really, in terms of

language.

Erika: Yes. And if you translate it to what we just said earlier about leadership

styles, this is a very good example of transactional leadership style

because it's a command. It's a directive.

Bernard: Picking up on that, the Belgian health minister has a very interesting

profile because she's not just a politician, she's also a general

practitioner. So, a doctor. What we notice on TV is that politicians...

The way they tell people to stay at home is very different from the way

scientists do it.

Scientists just say, "If you want to bring your grandparents in danger,

go and visit them." They're just basically saying, "Stay at home." This

health minister said, blijf in je kot, which is actually a very colloquial

way of saying, "Stay in your shacks." So, that is the scientist in her

talking, no longer the politician. This is a clear command and

people did start to listen to her after that.

Veronika: It's very different from what the British Prime Minister did, Boris

Johnson. Lots and lots of people—as Erika said, 10 million—tuned in.

He's giving daily press briefings, now. But lots of his language is a bit

obscure.

What makes it a bit obscure is because he uses an awful lot of

metaphor. He talks about, "Turning the tide on the Coronavirus" and

"We need to beat the virus" and "The virus can go packing in this

country." I mean, what does that mean? It's a bit of a lack of clarity,

really, there.

6


Bernard: People need a clear message. This is not what he is doing. You get

things like ‘advice’. Then, later on they're ‘urging’ people. I'm not sure

what stage you are at now, Veronika.

Veronika: Warning, I think. The latest was, ‘warning’. But what you also see is...

So, first people were advised, then urged, now warned. But he talks

quite differently to businesses. For instance, pubs and restaurants etc.

in Britain were actually... The government told them to. He actually

emphasised that. "We are telling businesses to do that." But citizens,

people, haven't been told anything yet. They have just been advised,

urged or warned.

Bernard: Yeah. Is he kind of adopting a relational style, then? And if that is the

case, then we'd say it's not very appropriate here.

Veronika: Yeah. It's something that has been described in the literature as

double-voicing. A way where he is a bit defensive and uses language

in a way to avoid criticism.

So, he says, "Yeah, we urge everybody to stay at home. As far as

possible, we want you to stay at home." Then he does things like,

"Some people may, of course, be tempted to go out tonight"—that was

when the pubs closed—"...and I say to you, please don't." So, on the

one hand, you are asked not to do something but, at the same time,

he feels understanding if you go ahead and do it anyway.

That really muddies the message, here. It’s a kind of relational

leadership. But really, in these sorts of situations, it's not appropriate.

Bernard: True. This is the kind of situation where, as a leader, you have to

accept the fact that people will not like what you're saying.

Veronika: Yeah. It's interesting. Keith Grint has looked at that and says, in a

crisis, you need a command style of leadership. You need somebody

to give orders. If you're in a train crash, you need somebody to give

orders. Which is not the same as coming up with a long-term strategy

for something, which would be more of a leadership thing.

Again, it's about adjusting to the context, isn't it?

7


Erika: Yes. Have you guys noticed that we started to talk about how leaders

talk when we are discussing leadership?

Veronika: Yeah, well we would, wouldn't we? We're linguists, really.

(Laughter) But seriously, it's not just us. Lots of people talk about

government and other communications because, you know, it is

important. Especially in these kinds of situations.

Bernard: Yeah. That's true. What we should also probably not focus on too

much is those typical leadership genres that you get in the carefully

crafted CEO letter or, indeed, nowadays, politicians addressing the

public during a pandemic. But also, in daily interactions on the work

floor, at the coffee machine and in small meetings. This is where

leadership actually emerges. It becomes obvious that employees can

be leaders as well, in their own right. So, without this hierarchical

position.

Of course, we also know that you can have really bad leadership skills

by people who do have a hierarchical position that is associated with a

kind of "boss" function.

Veronika: True. Yeah.

Bernard: In fact, actually I had a look at Forbes magazine the other day. What

do you think is the most important skill a leader should have? They

have a list of six very important skills. You might think there are a

couple of very important skills as a leader but they list being a very

good communicator as the first one.

Erika: Why am I not surprised?

Bernard: And the second one is being an expert. But fortunately, people are

aware of that fact, now. Because it used to be a lot about expertise but

now it's all about communication, and rightly so.

Erika: Yes. And we need to be mindful of the fact that it's not just these grand

genres and big CEO speeches, as you said before, but all the small

instances. The everyday emails. We're all getting all these emails from

8


our line managers and our institutions now. People are reading

messages on a daily basis.

Bernard: And I think we all feel it. It's a heavy burden. I think a leader should

also feel that. That sometimes, you do need a moment to lighten up

the mood a bit.

This is what our Head of University, did. He actually retweeted a post

where someone listed the most expensive streaming sites in Belgium.

Of course, what happened is that we have to do all of our teaching

online now. So, there's a lot of streaming going on. In that list, you

could see Netflix, of course, and other streaming services. But you

could also see—and it was the most expensive one—Ghent

University. (Laughter)

Veronika: Oh, because you pay tuition fees in order to watch your lecture talking

to a webcam. I see. Yes.

Bernard: Yes. That's it. The tuition fees, I would say are very low but, of course,

compared to the other streaming services it's extremely, extremely

high. But you know, this is the kind of self-banter. He had the right

timing in sharing all of that with us and with the students.

Veronika: Yeah, that's a good one and I think it was probably really much

needed. But in general, humour is really an important leadership tool

because it can have various functions. You can express solidarity with

it but you can also do power plays with it. So, you can be both

relational or transactional.

[Jingle 0:15:04 - 0:15:09]

Erika: I may know just the right person who can tell us more about the role

and function of humour. She is a professor of sociolinguistics but she

is also the founder of linguistic profiling for professionals, Professor

Louise Mullaney. Hi, Louise.

Louise: Hi everyone.

Veronika: Hello. Hi.

9


Bernard: Hi, Louise. Hi.

Erika: Louise, we were talking about humour in leadership. You ran a very

popular online course called, "How to Read Your Boss". Did your

students learn about bosses’ successful or unsuccessful attempts at

humour?

Louise: Yes, they did. As part of "How to Read Your Boss", we focused on it.

It's one of those features of speech which is very underrepresented in

normal business training textbooks.

We wanted to give a special linguistic angle to it, to say that this is

actually something that we do very, very frequently when we talk,

when we're leaders, when we're in the workplace. It's something that's

really quite subtle and has got multiple layers to it. It's quite a complex

phenomenon but something that's really, really interesting and

important to look at linguistically.

On "How to Read Your Boss", what we did was to teach people how to

profile their boss using some linguistic tool kits. Humour was a key

part of this. But then we also enabled people to profile themselves and

to think about how they use humour and how their teams use humour,

as well.

One of the aspects that we looked at was the multi-functionality of

humour. So, how it can fulfil lots and lots of different functions. We

looked at how it mostly maintains solidarity and collegiality. That it's

something that is an in-group identity marker that makes us feel part

of a community. That makes us feel that we can share knowledge and

share our norms about other people within the business.

We look at how there can be identity categories that are associated

with humour. For example, most workplaces will be able to identify the

joker, the person that's always telling jokes. This can be a positive. It

can be a negative, depending upon how frequently they take place.

But one of the key things to look out for.

10


Then we talk about how different groups of people at work develop

their own humour norms over time. The more you get to know one

another through what we call a "communities of practice" lens, what

ends up happening here is that you will develop and grow the way in

which you use humour.

So, some workplaces that we've worked with use a lot of irony and

sarcasm. That's very standard. It's used every day. It's used to release

tension; it's used to express solidarity and collegiality. It's also used to

critique, as well, which is another key function of humour. Particularly

when we're thinking about leadership discourse.

There can be some really quite subtle and complex elements that go

on with humour in this particular space. For example, a subordinate

can critique a leader. You have to be very careful when you do this but

it can take place through the guise of humour. You've always got that

little adage that you can say, "Oh, I didn't mean it. I wasn't..."

Veronika: "I was just joking."

Louise: "I was just joking. I was just pulling your leg." In the large data set that

we've got at the University of Nottingham, we see this quite a lot. That

you get this idiomatic language, metaphorical language use. "I was

only pulling your leg." Just to say... Well, it gives people a fallback

position to say, "I wasn't really being serious." But there's always that

ambiguity about it. People can never really be 100% certain whether it

was a little dig or whether it was criticism.

There are a few areas of our data collection where we've seen this

used by individuals to critique upwards. It can also be used to critique

downwards by leaders who want to issue criticisms, say, or they want

to issue something that can be negatively perceived, but they don't

want to do it directly. They don't want to do it openly. So, it enables

different opportunities for leaders to be opened up.

I've mentioned already that it can be used to release tension. So, quite

frequently in business meeting discourse, where there's been a very

difficult subject matter that's been discussed or a very difficult decision

11


that's been taken, you might get humour inflected throughout this

difficult conversation just to kind of pull people back and say, "We're

on the same page. We're all together with this." Then it can be used at

the end of that to signal that the decision has been made and they can

all move on.

So, again, it's doing multiple things. It's establishing collegiality but it's

also releasing tension. Signalling, also, like a discourse marker, that

you can move on to the next phase of the meeting or the next agenda

item because humour has taken place. It's used quite a lot to signal

these transitions and adjustments that in made in leadership talk.

Veronika: That's fascinating, how much humour can really do and different forms

of humour. Thanks for giving us a bit of the background about humour

in the workplace.

I just want to briefly ask you to switch your hats, as it were. Because,

apart from doing the linguistic profiling for professionals and running

this online course and doing a million other things, you have also

started a network on language, leadership and gender across various

countries in Africa. Could you tell us a bit about what that is about?

Louise: Yeah. This network started up with a grant from the Arts and

Humanities Research Council in 2018. What we've been doing is

pulling together researchers, NGOs, charities. So, it's a really multi-

disciplinary effort involving people both inside and outside of

academia.

We've started off in East Africa, which is where we had a group of

researchers that had been set up already, where we were already

looking at gender and communication in the field of leadership. We're

taking a very, very broad definition of leadership with the network, so it

can be anything from leaders within very small community groups in

rural locations through to people that are MPs or people that are

CEOs of large, multinational organisations. So, looking at urban and

rural locations.

12


What we've been doing here is capturing narrative reports. So,

capturing life histories about people that have succeeded. And a lot of

the cases are totally against the odds. How they have managed to

pursue a career that was always their dream, what obstacles they've

overcome and what communication challenges they've had,

particularly from the perspective of gender.

We're looking at gender very much from an intersectional perspective.

So, it's gender in relation to age, in relation to ethnicity, a lot of the

time. Looking at a range of different factors that come together,

alongside religion, as well, and other variables that participants have

drawn attention to themselves. So, different cultural backgrounds or

different tribal backgrounds, as well.

What we're basically aiming to do is to build an online resource, which

we've launched now. There's a website that's attached to the project

that's running on the University of Nottingham's website.

What we're looking at doing, here, is growing the membership and

using the stories to give an exchange of information. So, to share

stories so stories can act as tools of inspiration, so people can feel

that they're being mentored by somebody that's been there already.

But we're also looking at the stories of people who are just starting

out. The people that want to be community leaders. Looking at the

kind of challenges that they face.

Veronika: Yeah. That's really fascinating. We'll make sure that we include a link

to that website.

Louise: Thank you.

Veronika: It also deals quite nicely with a recent episode on storytelling.

Louise: Oh, brilliant.

Veronika: I asked you specifically about this language, leadership and gender

network because our next guest—we have two, today—is actually a

member of that network. So, Louise, thank you very much for giving

13


us the background on this, as well. Good luck with all your various

projects.

Louise: Thank you very much. It's been great to talk to you.

Veronika: Okay, bye. Bye bye.

Bernard: Thank you, bye.

Erika: Bye.

[Jingle 0:22:53 - 0:22:59]

Veronika: Good. We're very pleased to welcome our interview guest for today,

Roshni Moneeram. She has had a very varied and interesting career.

She has a background in literature, in English literature, but also

applied linguistics. She has worked for the University of Nottingham,

running the English programme on their campus in China.

But currently, Roshni is a consultant with special expertise in equality,

diversity and inclusion. Also, and interestingly, she founded a political

party in her home country of Mauritius and stood in the general

elections of 2014.

I would like, though, Roshni, to start talking about your current work.

Your consultancy work on leadership and equality. Can you tell us a

little bit about who you typically work with and what your clients' goals

are? And, of course, we're particularly interested in how your

background as an applied linguist influences your consultancy work.

Roshni: Well, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me on this platform.

I'm delighted to be talking about something that I'm very passionate

about. This consultancy that I've created for myself brings together the

things that I'm the most passionate about, which is language and the

true power of language, which I think we don't always understand and

sometimes, as linguists, we forget. I'll come back to that as my starting

point in a minute.

Consultancy brings together my passion about language, my passion

about equality, diversity, inclusion and leadership. So, to start with 14


language... As linguists, we know, obviously, that it is the most

powerful of human technologies. It is something that I took with me to

the workplace and I explain the history of the evolution of language to

give context to how powerful words are. I go back to 70,000 years

ago.

Veronika: Wow.

Roshni: Yes! (Laughter) Homo sapiens in East Africa were just one species

amongst many other species and co-habited with other species but we

were not superior to them. The one thing that triggers everything for

homo sapiens is that our brains evolve language.

Because our brains evolve language, it is a language that doesn't just

allow us to describe the things that are around us—for example,

"Danger here because a lion is coming. Run away or kill it"—but

language also allows us to imagine things that don't yet exist. So,

language allows us to bring into being the unseen and the undreamt.

I start with that before I do anything else when I'm working as a

consultant.

Erika: That's brilliant. Beautiful.

Roshni: Because it's only there... It remains our most powerful technology

because it is through language that we are then able to organise

ourselves and create everything else that we have created, including

the internet.

Veronika: Yes. And making sense of it all, you know, so important.

Roshni: Absolutely. This always works a treat with... I work in industries... The

banking industry, I work with software engineers and highly technical

people like scientists. So, it's really quite marvellous for them to be

able to see that everything they do actually depends on language.

Veronika: Yeah. I sometimes freelance a bit as a consultant and it's... You know,

when they have that moment when they really... "God, yeah! We do

15


talk like that. Oh yeah, that actually does make a difference." This

lightbulb moment. I think that's very rewarding, isn't it?

Roshni: Absolutely.

Bernard: Earlier in the episode, we talked about humour and leadership in

workplace conversations. Now, in these consultancies that you do, or

even perhaps in the project that you have on the women leaders in

Africa, which was huge as well and very interesting... We might talk

about that a bit later.

The notion or the aspect of humour is very important as well. Do you

see that in the client organisations you work with or do you incorporate

that in what you tell them?

Roshni: Absolutely. There is so much about humour. There is so much

intelligence in humour that it is a capital that absolutely must be used

in the workplace. You can also teach people to leverage it, as well.

I think humour is something that is one of those things that makes us

human. The distinction between whatever we're going to be able to do

with robots and AI etc. and who we are as human beings. Humour is

such an important part of us.

Humour is important to us when we are happy. Humour is particularly

important to us in the darkest of times, as we are experiencing at the

moment with Coronavirus.

Erika: Exactly.

Veronika: We've seen so much of people putting out humorous memes on

Twitter or sharing jokes and what have you to get us through.

Bernard: Or changing the lyrics of songs and things like that. And you do feel

that kind of relief, don't you, in these circumstances? And

in companies I guess it's the same thing. We've all been in long

meetings, perhaps sometimes a bit tedious meetings, and then you're

happy to have the joker around to provide some kind of relief then, in

these workplace settings. Indeed.

16


Roshni: Absolutely. That's why I come back to the idea of how much

intelligence there is behind humour. Because it goes back to the fact

that it's a survival strategy. It's a "diffusion of tension" strategy.

It also propels when there is stalemate and people are at loggerheads.

This is the one thing that propels us out of that stalemate to recreate

and to start again with a different conversation floor. So, it is really,

really crucial to the workplace. To meetings, especially difficult

meetings.

One other thing that humour does is that it creates a level playing

field. When you are working precisely in the corporate, when you have

strong hierarchy systems, then humour comes in to create that level

playing field, allowing space for more voices.

Bernard: That's true, yes. Humour is a kind of social cohesion device, on the

one hand, but also as a way, in hierarchical situations, to flatten that

hierarchy a bit. For instance, a leader engaging in self-mockery can

create that social cohesion, too. You're absolutely right.

Veronika: But, of course, you almost have the opposite where you have this

power function of humour. Where humour is used in rather destructive

ways, perhaps to poke fun at somebody or put somebody down etc.

So, where would you come in there, Roshni, with your background?

Roshni: Yes. Interesting. It can happen and obviously it does happen. I haven't

been in situations where that has happened. But if somebody were

using their authority and their position of power to use humour to

cause distress to someone or diminish someone, then obviously you

would have to intervene there and say that this wasn't quite right.

More difficult to do than to say, especially when you're working with

people in positions of power. Humour does have a very, very

destructive component, as well.

Erika: Yes. I was going to ask this question about how you balance the

power and the friendliness and collegiality. Especially in the light of the

very impressive line-up of your training programmes. There is one in

17


particular which really interests me. It's called, "Getting to a positive

'No'". Can you tell us a bit more about that training that you do?

Roshni: Absolutely. This is where you have to look at language and leadership

in context and in cultural context. I was working with Accenture, which

is a global company reaching half a million people across the world. I

was working in the context of Mauritius, at their Accenture office there,

on a project where 50 people were providing service delivery to a

really big, impressive client in Holland.

The was a discrepancy between the KPIs, which were all being met...

But the client was not satisfied with what was going on. It was one of

those wicked problems because it was very difficult to put your finger

on what it was. Because it was not a technical issue, it was not to do

with processes and procedures.

I think this is when consultants with a background in the arts, the

humanities and the social sciences come in with sometimes intangible

tools and qualitative tools that are used to try to understand what the

wicked problem is.

In this case, it was simply that... It was two things. One of them was

the idea of excellence for the Dutch client was very different... was a

little different—but important nuances—from the excellence in the

minds of the team in Mauritius. So, there was a disconnect there

between different ideas of excellence. That was one.

The second issue was that, in Holland—from what I understand—the

culture of the company in particular was, "If you cannot deliver

something, you really, really must tell the client. This might annoy

them. This might be not the thing that they want to hear. But it is so

crucial that you tell them, "No". Because the, "No" is actually

protecting a bigger "Yes". The bigger "Yes" might be your integrity, it

might be the trust that you have been building with a client for 10

years, it might be honesty."

That's where politeness comes in, as well. What does politeness

mean and how is it manifested in different cultures? Whereas the

18


team in Mauritius wanted to be as polite as possible... and

occasionally, quite often, they would say yes to something that wasn't

quite feasible.

Bernard: That's very interesting because, before, we were talking about a

transactional approach to leadership and a more interactional or

relational approach to leadership. The Holland approach, it seems, is

more transactional.

That also corroborates what our general notion of doing business with

people from the Netherlands is, here in Belgium. It's very direct. It's to

the point. It's just business and "get things done." But we also have to

get used to the way they talk, in way, because that can indeed be very

direct. If you're not aware of that cultural background, it can be seen

as somewhat impolite at times, it's true.

Roshni: Absolutely. It can cause unnecessary stress to people and, therefore,

dramatically reduce wellbeing at work and productivity.

Bernard: There's something else I would like to talk about a bit more.

Because you were talking about the power of language before and,

actually, you tap into the very core of our podcast. The importance of

language.

Now, in the conversation that we're having, when we're talking about

leadership and language, we're kind of assuming that the language

proficiency is... that it has a certain standard, so that in using language

as a tool, it actually works.

But I was wondering—because you've done a lot of work on global

Englishes—how important that level of proficiency is to establish

leadership. Are people more lenient towards, for instance, lower levels

of proficiency in these contexts or do you actually see that the lack of

proficiency can be a hurdle in view of the other features that a leader

should have?

Roshni: A very interesting question. I think, for sure, that the lack of proficiency

is an issue from the perspective of the speaker in terms of self-

19


awareness and confidence. But again, it is linked to that self-

awareness and confidence. So, the confidence can sometimes

override the lack of proficiency, to a certain extent.

Then there is also how the speaker is viewed by the audience. Their

own prejudices and their own capacity for inclusion and acceptance.

The capacity to hear the message and not judge on the basis of

perceived or real lack of proficiency. So, it's complex. There is no

single answer to this.

But I think one thing that is really changing—and I've seen that over

the last 10 years—is... precisely because English is so global a

language and nobody owns the English language anymore,

because you have these established world Englishes in India, in

Africa, in various parts of China, and because you have...

When I was in China in particular, I noticed there was a very strong

strand of what we call, "Traveller's English". People from Europe, from

Asia, from various parts of the world, travel and work together globally.

It's not just a traveller's English, it's kind of an international English for

business as well. So, there are different strands of English being

created, co-created, by a number of different people.

I think we're getting away from that idea of what standard English, the

Queen's English, Anglo-Saxon, American might be. That those might

be the standards by which we're judged. I think that's going away

now.

Veronika: So, the point is becoming much more to actually be proficient in that

English that is most relevant in a particular context?

Roshni: Yes, and to get your point across.

Veronika: Yes, indeed. Roshni, I'm afraid we have to come to a close with this.

There are lots more thing we could ask you. There's lots more things

we would like to know. But for now, we would like to thank you very

much for being with us today. It's been a fascinating insight into

20


somebody with a very interesting background. So, thanks a lot for

being with us.

Roshni: Thank you very much. I've enjoyed talking to you, too. Thank you.

[Jingle 0:36:35 - 0:36:40]

Erika: Right. That was fascinating. I was really impressed by Roshni's range

of trainings and courses that she offers for businesses. I really would

have liked to hear a bit more about her techniques. Maybe at another

time.

Bernard: And we also... It would be nice to learn more about the things she did

with the women in leadership positions in Africa as well. Well, to be

honest with you, listeners, we had two interviews already. Most of you

know that humour and analysing humour... It requires a lot of context.

Things like, "You should have been there," is what we often say. So,

we won't do an actual analysis during the podcast but I think,

Veronika, you have something up your sleeve, right?

Veronika: Yes. We have collected examples of humour, especially in workplace

meetings etc. But we thought it might be a bit tedious to listen to us

giving all the context. So, what we'll do is we'll put one, with the

context, in the blog post to go with this episode. We'll also do a bit of

analysis between us. So, you will get it in written form this time

because we think, for humour, that will work better. So, something to

look forward to on the blog, as well.

Bernard: Yeah. And, I think, a link to Roshni's work, right? A project that she had

with the women in leadership positions in Africa?

Veronika: Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Bernard: Great.

Veronika: As ever, the blog post will have lots of extra materials for the readers

and listeners to use. Yeah. So, we hope that you will join us again for

the next episode. For now, it's goodbye from us. Okay. Bye bye.

Bernard: Bye bye, everyone. 21


Erika: Goodbye.

Veronika: Bye.

[Jingle 0:38:11 - 0:38:39]

END OF AUDIO

22


wordsandactions12342078.files.wordpress.com€¦ · Web viewFile name:WAA ep 8 V1 Audio Length:...

Documents

Transcript of wordsandactions12342078.files.wordpress.com€¦ · Web viewFile name:WAA ep 8 V1 Audio Length:...