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The University of British ColumbiaFirst Nations Studies Program

Research PracticumFashion & Feminism: The Blanche Macdonald Project

ResearcherChloe Erlendson

SupervisorAlexis Macdonald Seto

Dr. Sheryl LightfootTanya BobFNSP 400Final ReportMarch 2014

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Tuesday, March 4, 2014Fashion & Feminism: The Blanche Macdonald Project

Table of Contents

1. Summary of Project......................................................................................................... 3

2. Archiving and Digital Timeline....................................................................................... 3

3. Blanche’s Important Moments....................................................................................... 4

1930s........................................................................................................................ 4

1940s........................................................................................................................ 5

1950s........................................................................................................................ 7

1960s........................................................................................................................ 9

1970s....................................................................................................................... 10

1980s....................................................................................................................... 11

Final ReportMarch 2014

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4. Making the Story Available........................................................................................... 14

5. Interview Transcripts.................................................................................................... 15

5. a) Pamela Baker.................................................................................................. 16

5. b) Gail Davidson................................................................................................. 31

Fashion & Feminism: The Blanche Macdonald Project

1. Summary Of ProjectThis project was the initiative of Alexis Macdonald Seto, the daughter of

fashion mogul and Indigenous women’s activist Blanche Macdonald. Alexis has

abundant information, photos, letters, diaries, and newspaper clippings that

document her mother’s life, and wanted it organized and digitized into an easily

accessible format. The project involved archival components, as well as interviews

with a two women who were close to Blanche Macdonald. In the future (beyond

the practicum), Alexis envisions this project going on to an exhibition at the Final ReportMarch 2014

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Museum of Vancouver and/or a being published as a book. The deliverables for

this project can be found in this Final Report.


2. Archiving and Digital TimelineAll physical raw data made available has been sorted through and

categorized into significant sections (ie. The Blanche Macdonald School, personal

correspondence, activism, financial records, etc). Photos have been scanned,

cropped, edited, and saved into their appropriate decade. A folder exists on

Alexis’ personal iPhoto that has all scanned photos sorted into chronological

order. In Section 4, Making the Story Available, I explain the doubts that Alexis

had about making any pictures or documents publically available at this time. For

this reason, I did not watermark the digital photos since they are currently for

private use only.


3. Blanche’s Important Moments1930s


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Blanche Mae Brillon was born to John Brillon and Marie Aloysa Ouellette on May 11, 1931 in Faust, Alberta. Throughout her mother Aloysa’s life, she was also known as Eliza, and then called herself Ella after marrying her second husband. Her father John was French, and her mother was Cree Métis. Blanche was one of five children born to John and Eliza; Wylie Leonard Brillon (April 14, 1929), John Brillon (June 8, 1925), Lawrence Martin Brillon (May 2, 1927), and Helen Corrine (Sheila) Brillon (November 28, 1935). At this time of Blanche’s life, she was growing up in a very proud Métis family. Given the social conditions in the 1930s of tension between the Indigenous population and European settlers, being Métis meant fighting that much harder for your spot in society. Blanche was influenced by her strong, Cree speaking maternal grandmother, who refused to let her children and grandchildren go through the Residential School System. The influence of Blanche’s grandmother, along with witnessing traditional Aboriginal practices as a part of everyday life rooted the rest of Blanche’s life as a proud, strong Aboriginal woman. She would never forget the hide tanning, mink farming, or family gatherings with music, dance, food, and laughter. Blanche was adored by her brothers and father throughout her life, and always enjoyed spending time with family.

Blanche, 1937 Blanche’s childhood home in Faust, Alberta

1940sFinal ReportMarch 2014

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In 1942, the marriage between Eliza and John ends, and the Brillon family splits in two. Blanche and her sister Sheila moved to Edmonton with their mother, and the three brothers stayed behind with their father. The boys would later move around throughout British Columbia. This time in Blanche’s life molded her into a responsible adult at a young age. With Eliza working as a waitress to make ends meet, Blanche was to look after her younger sister. The three Brillon women were living in a rooming house and were taken into foster care for approximately two months or less. Eliza got a job cleaning at the foster house so as to see her daughters. One day she let them know that she would be coming back for them that night. In the middle of the night, Eliza kidnapped her daughters back and travelled to Vancouver for a fresh start. Around 1943, Eliza, Blanche and Sheila were living in the Downtown Eastside in another rooming house on Powell Street as the girls attended Strathcona School for around 3 months. Blanche was in grade 7 at the time.

Blanche and Sheila in Edmonton, 1942 Blanche and Sheila in Vancouver, 1944


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Blanche, Eliza and Sheila in Edmonton, 1942In 1945, Eliza moves her girls again to Bremerton, Washington where she meets her second husband, Charles Johnmeyer. The family was in Washington for around 8 months and loved the American way of life. Blanche noted that compared to her hometown of Faust, there was no prejudice in America. No one cared that they were Métis, and they were freed from the expectations put onto Canadian Aboriginal peoples. Blanche’s stepfather, Charles was a naval engineer, and was soon repositioned to Kodiak, Alaska in 1945. The family experienced the same kind of freedom in Kodiak, and enjoyed life for many years. In her teenage years, Blanche made many close friends, was cast as the lead in the school play, had a new baby sister, Joni Johnmeyer (October 2, 1945), met her first boyfriend, Bill, and enjoyed the outdoor lifestyle of Kodiak.

Bill and Blanche in Kodiak, Alaska, late ‘40s Blanche and friend in Kodiak, Alaska, late ‘40s


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Blanche and Peggy in Kodiak, Alaska, 1946

In 1949, at 17 years old Blanche was diagnosed with TB, and sent to the Tranquille Sanatorium in Kamloops, BC. She would stay there for 1 year.

1950sAfter her treatment for TB, Blanche returned to Kodiak for about one more year. In that time, she stared in another theatre production and took trips to see her beloved brothers who were living in the Queen Charlotte Islands and Prince Rupert. At the age of 20, Blanche moved to Vancouver to attend a Secretarial School. This allowed Blanche to be closer to her brothers as she lived at the ‘Blue Triangle’ (now the YWCA) downtown. Blanche then worked at Ker and Ker Real Estate where she met her next boyfriend, Ross Ker, a young lawyer and the son of her boss. The two dated for two years. At age 21, Blanche had a relapse of TB and returned to Tranquille for approximately 1 more year. Blanche credited her recovery to a Christian Science Practitioner, and was a devout Christian Scientist for the remainder of her life. When she returned to Vancouver in 1952, she joined the modeling school Elizabeth Leslie. As Ross dropped her off at her interview, he warned her not to sign anything until he had seen it, but Blanche being Blanche went in and signed everything, enrolling in many classes. Before Blanche even made it through one course, Elizabeth Leslie had her teaching at the school. During the year of ’52, Blanche was living in the West End, and won the Miss


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English Bay Pageant. For the next two years, Blanche continued to model and work for Elizabeth Leslie (ages 22-24).

Blanche, Miss English Bay. Vancouver, BC 1952In 1954, Elizabeth Leslie asked Blanche to move to Edmonton to open another branch of the school. This is where she met her husband Jack Macdonald, the brother of a student at the new school. For two years, Blanche taught classes and wrote articles for local newspapers. In 1956, she decided to move to Los Angeles, where she got a job at Loretta Young Way. Blanche was modeling, and working in the office by day, and teaching classes in the evening. At this point, Blanche really fell in love with teaching. While in Hollywood, Blanche and Jack were writing letters to each other, and Blanche had suggested that things between them would not work since they did not see eye to eye on the issue of Aboriginal rights. Jack felt that he was going to lose Blanche, and flew out to Hollywood to visit. 5 days later, in November of 1957, they were married. The newlyweds moved to Dawson Creek, BC, and soon Blanche was pregnant with her first daughter, Alexis. Blanche and Jack were back in Edmonton visiting family when Blanche went into labour two weeks early while out dancing. She gave birth to Alexis Macdonald on September 13, 1958. As a late honeymoon trip, Blanche and Jack went to Europe


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for 5-6 weeks in July of 1958. Blanche was already a few months pregnant with her second child. In Dawson Creek, Jack ran a jukebox business where he serviced all the local businesses with jukeboxes, while Blanche taught classes to wives of oil industry workers and wrote for local papers. In 1959, the young family moved to North Delta, and their second son, Allan Macdonald, was born in Surrey on December 8, 1959.

Blanche holding Alexis (4 months old), 19591960sIn 1960, the Macdonalds moved to the British Properties in West Vancouver and opened Blanche Macdonald Ltd. at 630 Seymour Street. In the ‘60s, Blanche really started to identify as a Native woman. This is something she had suppressed slightly since meeting her husband Jack. 1 year after the Friendship Centre opened (called The Vancouver Indian Centre at the time), she was sitting on the board with the likes of Simon Baker and Minnie Croft. Through the ‘60s, Blanche was focused on raising her two young children and growing her school. Her life consisted of fashion shows, lectures, social events, working with designers, hair salons, airlines, department stores, creating specialized courses, starting a modeling agency with Jerry Lodge, and running a cross country tour to promote Canadian fashion. Blanche was at the forefront of Vancouver’s emerging


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fashion scene and culture. In 1968, Blanche’s marriage to Jack began to fall apart and in 1969, Jack got his own apartment in the city.

Blanche (middle) and employees in front of school The Blanche Macdonald School employees (Blanche far right)


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Blanche portrait, 1960s Macdonald family, 1961

1970sBlanche took her children in May of 1970, and moved back to Kodiak, Alaska. Her and Jack were officially divorced later that year. She sold the school to business partner and Toronto agent Jerry Lodge and started teaching classes in Kodiak at a local department store. This was a time of grounding for Blanche and her children. She rediscovered her roots and culture as a Native woman and worked to open minds to new culture and Indigenous folks from different regions. 15 months later, in 1972, the family moved back to Vancouver in Horseshoe Bay. Blanche borrowed money from a close friend and bought back her school, now on Pender Street for $800, which had become run down in her absence. Blanche paid her friend back within a year and worked to build the school back up to its previous state. She worked to create programs to build the long lasting careers of women who wanted to become self-sufficient. Blanche brought her youngest sister Joni up from California to develop and open a Fashion Merchandising school. The next year she started her esthetics program. The Blanche Macdonald School raised the standards for education in this field.


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Blanche also worked with First Nations designers and discovered and promoted Indigenous models. Blanche ran Self Appreciation classes in prisions (for men and women) at Oakalla, Matsqui and Maples Women’s Prison. Blanche was working for the United Native Nations of which she organized the first ever United Native Nations Conference, the Friendship Centre, and was a founding member of the Professional Native Woman’s Association. In 1973, Blanche moved and rented a house with Alexis and Allan in North Vancouver. In 1975, she attended a 3 month pre-law course in Saskatchewan, and in September of 1975, she attended UBC Law School and lived on campus with her children. At UBC Law, she met two life-long friends, Gail Davidson and Laura Alper. In 1977, Blanche quit law school and changed the name of her business to Blanche Macdonald Career Colleges.

In 1979, Alexis left for New York to pursue a modeling career, and during her absence, the school moved to 361 Water Street.

Blanche, 1971 Alexis Modeling for School Promo, 1979

1980sWith the new Gastown location, Blanche and her two children Alexis and Allan all worked together to expand the school even further. In the early 1980s, a


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recession had hit North America, and although it was a good time for the industry, the raised interest rates affected the business. Blanche was living with her children on the Musqueam Indian Reserve and was also teaching classes to Musqueam youth from her home. In 1980, Blanche was adopted into the James Sewid Family at an Alert Bay Potlatch Ceremony. In the same year, she joined the board of the Modeling Association of America (of which she became a Director), and hired an agent and established a professional modeling agency. In 1981, she opened a satellite school in Surrey which offered teen classes for acting, make up artistry, and esthetics.

In 1982, Blanche went to San Miguel de Allende where she studied sculpture for 3 months at Instituto Allende. When Blanche returned to Vancouver, she started a journalism program for Indigenous students in 1983. This was a completely separate venture from her school and she sat as the CEO of the new business while letting Alexis, Allan and other trusted managers take the reigns at her thriving Careers Colleges. In the same year she sat on the board for The New Play Centre and the Woman’s Network. She changed her school’s name to Blanche Macdonald Institute and had 15 full time employees and 40 part time instructors. Blanche continued her involvement with Native lead organizations and was hired by the Native Communications Society. Blanche redesigned and wrote for the Kahtou Newsletter and was instrumental in bringing broadcasting to northern British Columbia.

In 1984, Alexis developed rheumatic fever, and Blanche took time off to care for her. In this year, Blanche sold the Modeling School and Agency, but retained the Fashion Merchandising, Esthetics and Make Up Artistry portion of the business. In the fall of ’84, Blanche began to get sick and was diagnosed with lung cancer in January of 1985. In 1985, she won the YWCA Woman of Distinction Award for Business and the Professions. Blanche passed away in June of 1985.


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Alexis and Allan continued to run the school until selling Blanche Macdonald Institute to Lily Lim in 1988. The school continues to run today as The Blanche Macdonald Centre with three locations in downtown Vancouver.

Blanche (centre) at Alert Bay Potlatch, 1980


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YWCA Award Newspaper clipping, 1985 Allan, Blanche, and Alexis in front of Blanche Macdonald Inc. 1980


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4. Making the Story AvailableWhile the original intentions of the project were to make it publically

available online (via a website, Facebook page, Instagram, and/or Flickr), it

became obvious during as Alexis and I got deeper into the research, that we were

neither comfortable nor equipped to install and upkeep these resources. After

doing research, I discovered that the type of website that Alexis and I envisioned

(an interactive timeline of Blanche’s life) is a task best suited for a professional

web designer. In turn, Alexis decided that she would like to create a book (or

multiple versions of this book) to tell her mother’s story. Alexis came across a

website that provides layouts and options for different “homemade” books that

can be printed for a fee and sent to the customer. The website, Artifacts

Uprising1, is a great fit for Alexis at the moment since the books will only been

seen within her close circle of friends and family at the time. If there comes a

time when Alexis sees the need for a more public social media page, or more cost-

effective method of printing books, she will look into this further, but for the stage

that the project is currently at, Artifacts Uprising is sufficient. I spent time with

Alexis helping to organize her photos on the website, so they can be easily chosen

and uploaded to her liking.


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__________________

1 http://www.artifactuprising.com/site/home


5. InterviewsThis project allowed me the time to interview two women from Blanche’s

life. The first interview conducted was with Squamish artist Pamela Baker. Pam

was young at the time that she met Blanche and has looked up to her as a mentor

and role model ever since. Blanche inspired the successful fashion career and

business that Pam currently runs. An advocate for Indigenous female voices, Pam

is carrying on with the work (both professionally and within activism) that

Blanche initially inspired her to do.

Gail Davidson was one of Blanche’s best friends for 10 years. The two met

on the first day of Law School at the University of British Columbia and were

close friends ever since. Gail has insight into the personal life of Blanche, her true

character, and how she dealt with and felt about important events in her lifetime.

Gail has a deep love for Blanche and the Macdonald family and stays loyal and

respectful to her late friend at all times.


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5. a) Interviews: Pamela BakerChloe: My name is Chloe Erlendson and I am a FNSP 400 Research Practicum student and I just want to get your verbal consent that I have the permission to do this interview

Pam: Yes, yes you do.

Chloe: So, my first question: just tell me how you knew Blanche Macdonald

Pam: Well I met Blanche when I was a young girl, I think I was probably 16. Um, her daughter and my brother dated for a while, and I basically got to know everybody... and it was... yeah, it was quite an experience, I met her when I was about 16. And I met her by um... Well I knew of her, and my sister who was more ladylike than I was, I was more into sports and my sister had taken a course: Etiquette... kinda like Etiquette 101. I was kinda like, why am I not taking the course? I wanna take it too, so I was funded to go take the course and I really enjoyed it. Once I had taken that course at Blanche Macdonald’s, I kind of... it took me to a different level of being this tomboy/sports athlete/athletic person, to a little bit more of a lady. So that’s how I met her and known her ever since till she passed away


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Chloe: Do you have any comments about Blanche and your relationship with her?

Pam: Actually yes! She had a... I went to United Native Nations to work one summer, I think I was a practicum student and I um, was a clerk/business administration in school; that’s what we were all trained as back in those days, and then um, I ran into her somewhere. I can’t remember how this happened. She told... Oh! Actually, yeah! She came flowing into the office one day, and I was sitting there, this little Indian clerical person, and I seen her just float by and I was like, wow! She was beautifully dressed, and just great poise and just strength and I was like wow, that’s a strong woman, you know you got that right away. So then she came by again, and then she came by again, and finally we talked then we realized you know, that I knew Alexis, and then we um... she was the first person who handed me over a lot of responsibilities in any kind of organization. She said, “here, I want you to do the banner, I want you to do this, I want you to do that.” And I was like, yeah, sure I’m all over it! So I was; I ordered the buttons and the banner and I worked on the banner at her house and um, that’s what I really remember about... my strongest memory is that she walked through that room emitting all kinds of strength and... I don’t like to use the word power, cause power can be misconstrued so it was more about a very strong self image which a lot of Native people didn’t have at that time. Yeah, so it was really really cool and then she um, invited me to the school then. That’s when she said “hey we have a program going on. After you graduate you might be interested in it,” which was fashion merchandising. And I was like, sure I’ll take it! But I didn’t really even know what fashion merchandising was! So I jumped in the course and um, I took the course and at the end of the training... or it might have been before, she said “oh, Alexis and I are going to New York, would you like to come with us?” And I was maybe 16 and a half, maybe 17. My father had just passed away, and I had a trust, which was – back then – a lot of money, about two thousand dollars or something. I begged my mom to give me the money to go to New York – chance of a lifetime, right? So I went with them to New York and we stayed at the Waldorf Astoria, and uh, they went on model calls, and I went shopping, and they came back, we went to dinner. It was just an experience a little rez kid wouldn’t – I


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mean, we are urban Indians here – but going to New York, and crossing the boundaries of the reserve line, I was like, wow, this is an experience. So ever since that – and also I remember we uh, she said, “oh, we’re going to dinner tonight.” And I was thinking, jeez, how do I dress? I don’t know. But I had already taken the etiquette class right, so I knew etiquette, and then we went to this beautiful apartment in Manhattan, way up on Broadway – 27th floor – you could see the whole city and they use all of the, you know, the New York touches – silver and serving, different serving plates, and it was just like, wow, I want this kind of life someday. It opened my eyes and opened the doors to the whole idea of where I was going after that. So it was pretty exciting, yeah. She was one of my number one role models, besides my parents.

Chloe: So you definitely just shared a good one, but do you have any other memories about Blanche that really stand out to you that speak to her character? Something that is classic Blanche?

Pam: Well Blanche was very well spoken. Again, you didn’t really see that a lot. My mother did, cause she was part of the BC Women’s Native Association, and uh, you really didn’t have – I’m thinking that I know Blanche, when she, she grew up on a small reserve, and she was Métis and they weren’t accepted by the First Nations and they weren’t accepted by the Europeans, so she had a lot of struggle. So that’s where I see she gained a lot of strength. She had mentioned that before, that because of all those struggles, you become stronger, right? You become more of a survivor that’s going to keep climbing to be successful. And from the tools that she learned when she was a young person, she was able to utilize them as a mature person – survival – basically survival skills, so... And that’s something that I’ve gone through too. A lot of times when you look at my life and her life – I raised two kids on my own as well, I went to school, I got my degree in LA, and um, when you see one First Nations woman being able to do that – this was like, 1977/78, you’re thinking, wow, I can do it if she can do it. And she pretty much opened the doors to a lot of people. One of – I was really amazed when she called me into her office – yeah, I was kind of like, wow, why me? This little tough Indian


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lacrosse player/soccer player – she asked me into her office after I completed the course in Fashion Merchandising. She said to me, “I want you to teach courses across Canada doing self image and self improvement for First Nations – well, of course we said Indians back then – girls across Canada.” And I was like, yeah, I’m totally interested. I was like, 17? So I was going to fly all over the place to different villages and teach. And I said yeah, sure I’ll do it, and then I fell in lust and moved to San Diego, and there went that opportunity, right? When I moved back to Canada, I ended up meeting with Alexis again, and I ran, I designed a course, and we did run First Step. So basically what Blanche had always dreamed and, I guess pursued, she – her goal was to work with – I feel – was to work with Native women to bring them up to the next level, and I continued that. From what she taught me, that’s what I continued to do. So yeah, nonstop doing the fashion, I came home, I started a fashion... or a modeling troupe, and we travelled around, and the main goal was to work on self improvement/self image, and promote Native designers and models and artists. So I feel like a lot of times, I carried on what she was moving towards. So I continue to do that, I want to plan the biggest First Nations self-empowerment conference by 2015 – I’ve been talking to some powerful women so I hope we can come together and do that. So that’s some of – most of the memories have always been that... I think if I didn’t meet her, where I would have went, cause my mother was very powerful as a matriarch, you know, very silent type, stoic image in my life, and my father was very entrepreneurial. So, my father and Blanche were very similar, you know they came – my dad came through Residential School and went through all the hardships, and they could only go to eighth grade, so as an eighth grade graduate, he build a big business himself. So, with the two of them, kind of backing you, you’re like, wow, you can do anything. So basically, most of my family has been like that because of our father, and I’ve just taken it a different direction because of where she [Blanche] was.

Chloe: So if you want to, describe Blanche and her qualities – I know these might be a bit repetitive – but her qualities that stood out to you.


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Pam: She was very beautiful, she was very stoic, um, respectful. She was very community oriented – she did her best to help bring communities together, and the part that I really didn’t know a whole lot about was she was political. I found that out later, she was involved in a lot of political issues. I probably would like to know more about what she accomplished in that field, but I’m happy to hear that she did do that, because we had the quiet little ladies that were doing it for the women’s – BC Women’s Association? I can’t remember the exact name of it. My mother on the board, and my mom is 92 so that was quite a while ago. You also had women who came in in her age group in the 70s and 80s, who were allowed to be a lot more vocal, you know? So that’s what I respected about her, after I heard about it. But otherwise, she was just – kinda almost like a Native movie star! Right? You know, you didn’t have that! So that’s something that I respected. And raising two children on her own – that wasn’t easy, I’ve gone through that. But, I also remember one time I was at her house, in Musqueam, and I was painting the banner for the First United Native Nations Conference, and I went into her house and her... I don’t want to call it her maid, but her house lady – she was like a Jamaican lady, and she was serving us – cutting up fresh fruits and everything, and I was like, this is kinda like, weird you know? [Laughs] I’m not used to this – at home you know, it was your basics! Really well balanced – my mom was really good at well balanced meals but getting all these little fancy little plates, I thought this was something I would like to do in the future too, you know? So yeah, she had a different lifestyle, that’s for sure. Compared to, you know, people on the res, you know? So I said, if that’s the kinda lifestyle she lives, we all can do that, you know?

Chloe: Were you witness to any of the struggles or obstacles in Blanche’s life? And if so, do you recall how she dealt with them?

Pam: Um, actually I think one of the only obstacles that I could talk about was going up against the men – the Native men that I always say stay stuck. They have their way of thinking, and think their way is the right way. And when you have someone who was as entrepreneurial as she was and she could answer a lot of


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questions – they weren’t willing to listen. So that’s still a struggle today. You know, I sat on council and have been doing business for a long time, and you go in there with great ideas and you’ve educated yourself and they’re just not hearing you. So the way I used to tell some of the young ladies to approach it was to make it look like their idea, and then just let them do it and make it happen and then you can go from there. [Interruption from staff member at Pam’s salon]What was I saying? Oh yeah, I would say the political thing with the men at that day and time was really tough. The other thing I did, I came home and she had cancer, so I went to see her, but she was still really strong. I mean, I had never met anyone who had cancer at that time, and it was like wow. And I flew in from Indiana, and they um – she wasn’t seeing anybody – nobody was allowed to see her, and when I called, they said, “yeah, she’ll see you.” So I was like, you know, honored to see her. She was still strong, she was just, in her last week or something like that. So, basically, I fed her some soup and we talked a little bit – not much because she was very weak. But even in her weakness, you could see that she was still holding her... proud... I think she was more in touch with her traditional ways too. Like, I think when they left, there wasn’t a lot of tradition. A lot of people don’t have that anymore, but I think she got more in touch, especially with the Native communities. So you could see that spirit was still there. I guess that’s what it is, more her Native spirit was still within her, and she knew it was her time to go, and she just went with it. I mean that’s how I want to be too – I’ll joke around for the last minute – you know? [laughs] – with my kids or grandkids or whatever. So that’s – I didn’t have the opportunity to see so many struggles, I know – I would say number one is being involved in Native politics, with the men and the communities, and then her struggle with cancer.

Chloe: And in regards to dealing with the Native men, do you remember how she personally dealt with that?

Pam: I think she basically just went head-to-head with them, you know? In a diplomatic way. Cause I can recall some of the men she had to go up against, and


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to this day some of them are still very adamant in their ways. A lot of growth happened, like when we did the UNN – the United Native Nations first conference – it pulled together a lot of people and the direction was going in a positive way, yet as a female, and an entrepreneur, I still get a little upset because the guys somehow still stay stuck. it frustrates the hell out of me because there’s a lot of women that could come together – ‘cause we’re born to organize, you know? We can organize, we can coordinate, we can multitask, we can do – like right now, I’m doing about 5-6 projects. My checklist is right there and today I’ll go right through it all, and then make my next checklist, you know, so that everything’s – and that’s why I think when women come together and we... like if she was here today, we could, we could just blow everything apart and make some really positive changes in Indian country.

Chloe: So, do you have any comments about the Blanche Macdonald School and what it contributed to Vancouver and/or British Columbia?

Pam: The Blanche Macdonald School was the school. You know, cause I grew up here on the North Shore, and you seen schools popping up here and there and her school stayed strong. I think it was because – of course she was the leader, she was the head master I guess you could say – and made sure that everything stayed on track. When I went to the school I really loved it cause there was excellent teachers that had worked in the industry. And that’s when I went to LA, that’s the same thing, you’re working with the top notch teachers, right? So she – I think her success came from having the best teachers, probably in Vancouver, in the modeling field and the self improvement field. The school also had a personal touch – cause some of these young people opening schools, it’s all gotta be really modern, and you walk in there and you’re like, this doesn’t seem like much fun. But if you have a bit of that personal touch, you’re kinda like, more apt to be involved. Yeah, the school – I love the school because I went there for one thing, and I knew the owner. A lot of people didn’t know the owner, you know? So that was a bonus for me. Yet I still had to do my work [laughs] I couldn’t BS around


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and not do my homework. Yeah, so I would just say it was one of the top – was the top school, I’m not sure if it still is, I have no idea –

Chloe: Yeah, I’m not sure. I think it’s been owned by different people for quite a while now, but I think that it’s pretty well known. Pam: I think that one of the owners there, she’s been with them a long time.

Chloe: Peggy Morrison, yeah.

Pam: Oh! Peggy’s still there?!

Chloe: Yeah, she’s still there.

Pam: Woooow! Yeah, she was great! I loved Peggy. I ran into her a couple of times. A few occasions – I can’t remember – it might have been a fashion week or something like that. But yeah, she’s still – wow, that’s great!

Chloe: Yeah, she’s still there! Do you have any comments on any impacts the Blanche Macdonald School made on the Aboriginal community in this area? Of if it did? I know she did sponsor some students and was involved in the community

Pam: I think what happened with that is that, when she started working in the Native communities and focusing on a lot of the issues that were happening within Native country, she influenced a lot of the tribes and then met a lot of us young girls who were just around and headed us in the right direction. I think there’s quite a few other ladies that you might – I don’t know if they’re on your list, Native women like myself who may have went to the school – I think part of that big picture was, when she asked me to do that across Canada, and then I kinda let her down and moved ‘cause I fell in lust, and went across down to San Diego. But that was part of her plan, you know? I’m not sure where Alexis was – I think Alexis was in New York at that time and then when Alexis came back, she started running the school for a while, but they didn’t have a Native component


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yet. So when I came back to Canada from Indiana, we got together, and she said, “you design we’ll call it First Step.” So when First Step started, I think we ran it 3 years, and we brought a lot of First Nations students into the school, which was exciting because a lot of – they enjoyed it. It was well rounded, we taught the medicine wheel – I taught the medicine wheel ‘cause that’s one of my trainings. We taught modeling, etiquette – everything, you know, again. Then when – it was shortly thereafter when Alexis sold the school, Alexis and her brother... what’s her brother’s name?

Chloe: Allan.

Pam: Allan, yeah! Alexis and Allan sold the school, and then Alexis told me, “you can take the course, you can continually run it.” So I did. I ran it in a couple offices in Vancouver, I ran it over here in International Plaza Hotel – it used to be the hotel – and I still run into some of those students that I trained. I went to like, Mount Currie to do a training, I went up to Northern BC to do a training. So I’d work with 10 students there, 10 there, 15 there, whatever... and I run into a lot of them nowadays, and they say “I went to your training!” And this is 20 years ago, so a lot of times I can’t remember who they are! And “I’m so – I love what you do! I remember when you did this!” Some of them are in politics, have a good education... I’d say because of that influence of Blanche, and then me taking it on, the one’s that I continued to influence, I’d say 85% of them have gone on in a positive direction. Yeah, might have lost a few, like anywhere else, you know they may have kids or went the wrong, negative road. But yeah, I think, again, if I didn’t know her, and if Alexis didn’t carry it on, I may have never carried it on. And it’s still here [points to head] that it has to continue, you know? I came back from LA, I went to school and got my degree in fashion design and I had a design school here. Same thing with building up the women, if you can do it. I still run into a lot of them these days, and they’re doing pretty well – we stay in touch not with facebook, you can stay in touch with everybody, right? So yeah, her influence will carry on or a long time. I was kinda hoping one of Alexis’ daughters would take on some role of carrying on the positive impact to women and young girls.


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Chloe: I think one of her – her eldest daughter is pretty passionate about women’s rights... Yeah. In your opinion, would you describe Blanche as a feminist?

Pam: I don’t know if I would say a feminist, because... I wouldn’t call any Native women feminists. I don’t know.

Chloe: Yeah, there’s definitely a debate about that word.

Pam: I don’t know... I have no idea if I would.

Chloe: Okay. I know that she didn’t describe herself as a feminist either. So what do you think Blanche’s contribution to fashion or First Nations issues in Canada were, and were you aware of her course called Self Appreciation? And do you think that had an impact on the community?

Pam: Self Appreciation? Can you explain?

Chloe: Yeah, she had a course called Self Appreciation, and I think it was maybe what your course stemmed from? Kind of just taking the etiquette and taking that and learning how to be a strong woman and assert yourself...

Pam: Oh, yeah yeah. I think I got that certificate in one of my books! I should show it to you, you could take a picture of it. But yeah that was a great course. Cause I was thinking, was it called Etiquette? But Etiquette was one of the courses that fell under Self Appreciation, so I did take that, yeah yeah. And it was awesome. I mean, I always remember one of the instructors – her name was Dalse [check spelling] – you may have heard of her from Peggy, but she was this petite little... I don’t know if she was English, but she was really old. She had a little black bob.


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Chloe: I think I’ve actually seen a picture of her.

Pam: Yeah, you probably have. She was very – she brought etiquette and she was so good at it, you know. But today, as a Native person, I’m thinking, why do we wanna learn that English etiquette crap anyway? But yet, let’s say you’re flying to New York and you’re gonna meet – well actually I’ve been to Dubai in a meeting where you better at least act like you know what you're doing, right? So there are those situations where you’re gonna fall in – I taught some kids, I brought them to a big dinner in Vancouver at the Hyatt Regency, and I showed them you know, how to use what spoon and knife, forks, whatever. And they really enjoyed it. Say you go on your first date with somebody of another race maybe, and you think, hmm how does this work? But today, it seems like young people don’t even care anymore so there’s no – there needs to be some kind of etiquette brought back. You know, respect? Cause you know that’s – to me I look around and I get really frustrated, you know? This morning I did my 3 mile walk. I do my exercise everyday – well I’d say 6 days of the week, 5 days of the week – and I have to really appreciate myself everyday. And I coach basketball too, I coach boys basketball, and I always say, well how am I gonna go out there and be a coach, if I’m looking all raggedy, you know? I better be in shape to be a coach, right? So that’s the way I think, and working with a lot of young women – because I work with young women I also work with young men and I push them towards entrepreneurship, education. All my basketball teams, I’ve coached at least 60-70 boys, you know for quite a while, and a lot of them are young men and some of them have done pretty well. I give them books – hey, this book on Millionaire Mind, read it, come back and tell me about it – So again, back to Blanche. If I didn’t see a woman that was like that, cause my mom was very... well, trained in residential school – set the table, eat properly, sit at the table, no running around, very, you know, old school teachings. But if I didn’t see that other side of the picture – the outside world – I probably... I don’t know where, what direction I would be. Still coaching probably, but I don’t know if I would have been involved in fashion! But in regards to fashion, she was very fashionable. But I was reading on of her articles and it said she was nominated as one of the top ten best


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dressers on the North Shore at the time. And she’s like, just ‘cause you’ve been in fashion all the time, people expect you to look that way all the time. That’s the same with me. Most of the time, I’m looking pretty fashionable, but today I didn’t – last night I got home late from the feast and just thought, it’s a blue jeans and sweatshirt day and I’m not gonna worry about it. But most of the time, like when I go to LA at the end of February, cause I’m gonna be at the school, working with Tod Oldman, the designer from New York – we’re working on a collection for the senior class down there – I gotta figure out what am I gonna wear, you know. I gotta walk in there looking like I know what I’m talking about – which I do, cause we’ve been doing it forever! [Laughs] that’s kinda funny. So she was very fashionable, even in like, jeans and a belt, you know making sure everything’s kinda coordinated – her nice little shawl, she always had a little wrap. And then I realized that later, Candace Bergman (?) right, the actress? When you got older, and she was still acting, she always wore turtle necks, so you can hide your age right? I better start doing that in five years [laughs]! I gotta use all the tricks of the trade! I just found one of my books and I was getting ready to throw it away, and one of the guys who works here was like, “don’t throw it away!” So I did the layout for a New York fashion show, it was one of my assignments to do a fashion show layout – I got the book right there too. I was like, ahh I just want to throw it away, and he was like, “no look at the fashions in there!”

Chloe: In your opinion, what was Blanche’s legacy?

Pam: Her school, for one. That’s a big legacy, to still have your name existing after you’re gone – how long has it been since she’s been gone? Was it ‘83?

Chloe: ’85.

Pam: Oh yeah, ’85. I guess I flew back – yeah, okay ’85. Yeah her legacy is ongoing, I think it’s going to be ongoing for quite some time. I don’t know if the school ever has a recognition, or educational session – where she’s from, when she started the school, is there a picture of her in the school anymore? I mean,


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that needs to live on. You should just have people like, “oh I’m going to Blanche Macdonald’s,” and you don’t even know who she is. Right? I think it’s important that they know who she is because even today, the school could be focusing on First Nations again – I kinda would be willing to go in there, but I always say, ehh I’m too older now, they could find somebody else to do the teaching. And I have some perfect models who one of them – well, two of them but – one of them, she’s a teacher now in elementary school, but she’s modeled nationally, she’s a tall, beautiful lady and is willing to teach courses. Another young lady who’s modeled for me – they just went to Vegas with me in March – and she’s modeled in Japan... Japan not China. I think another thing about the first trip to New York – it gave me the bug. I’ve been all over the world. You know, I’m not afraid to go anywhere. And one of the main things I learned from Alexis, which she probably wouldn’t even remember saying this, was one time I called Alexis and I said, “hey, somebody wants to hire me to do a session workshop and I don’t know what to do!” And she says, “always say yes, and think about it later.” So I’ve lived by that forever. Like if somebody called me right now, and said something that was very challenging, “would you be interested in it, la la la?” I say, “yes, yes I’m totally interested.” Which I did two weeks ago, I jumped on another... bandwagon or something! I say, “Yeah, I’m into it!” And then I hang up and I’m like, holy crap, how am I gonna do this now? So I just figure it out, right? I actually did that for a foster child. My son, when I was coaching the basketball team and we were at a big tournament, this kid got home, he came back – I was dropping him off, and I knew there was something going on, and his foster mom was kicking him out. And so the ministry picked him up, and the lady was saying, “where would you live if you had your choice to live anywhere? Who would you live with?” And he said, “coach.” So I get this phone call like, “hey, he said that he would love to live with you...” and I said, “yeah, sure! No problem, I don’t want that boy out in the streets.” And I hung up and I went – I didn’t even ask my sons what they thought, right? And Damen (?) says “yeahhh I’m gonna have another brother!” Cause his big brother just went to school. So I called my son down in LA, and he goes, “Mom, you gotta do what you gotta do. He’ll be our brother no matter what.” So it


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was like, okay, we got another brother! So I raised him for 5-6 years. So that’s their other brother. We had several foster kids just to keep them off the streets.

Chloe: That’s amazing. Do you have any comments about the role that creativity and creative expression played in Blanche’s life? And maybe the role that it played in your own life as well.

Pam: I guess you could say – well I know that she was modeling in LA, right? And then she came home. So when she got a taste of that life, she could see what had to be done here. So she had to really be creative in making the money. Women, females, us entrepreneurs – we’re always creative about how we’re going to make money and how we’re going to invest it. Like, I was on a shoestring budget and I did another new line of jewelry. And it’s out there. You know, you’re just always being creative. How am I gonna sell this? Where am I gonna go next? How do I need to focus on it? So yeah I would define her creativity as – for some of us it was like, how do you be creative in financing your next project? How are you going to dress your kids? You know, she might have sewn something. As a single mom, you totally have to be creative – it doesn’t mean sewing creatively and designing creatively, but you have to have the vision. I’m sure she had the vision to create her future. You know? You don’t just sit there and say, “oh, I’m gonna open a modeling school today.” You have to really think it through. Like me one time, I was sitting here thinking, oh if I don’t rent those offices upstairs, I’m just gonna build an apartment in two weeks. So It’s always thinking about how are you going to generate – I call it passive income – how are you going to keep that passive income? If you lose your job tomorrow, how is that income going to be coming in? And when she grew up, it was a lot tougher. 70s and 80s... I’m sure she could have left here and went to New York and stayed there, she went there a lot. She could have stayed there and worked there, but I think her roots, because her roots are here, she kept coming back and attempting to make her footprint and change within the Native communities. I’m not too worried about the other communities, cause my focus has always been on the Native community and First Nations. I think she... I don’t know, if we didn’t have a Blanche Macdonald, it


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would have been a whole different outlook for a lot of Native women. And you know today, they always talk about the crabs in the bucket syndrome, I think she had – here’s one thing I just thought about! She had the benefit of maybe one of the good things of not growing up on a reserve, she didn’t have as many crabs in the bucket, ‘cause people supported her from the outside world with her business. Like my family here had a business, and there was all kinds of turmoil going on, you know? It’s because people don’t understand business, they think you’re making millions, and they want to pull you down. And I think she was in a way lucky that she wasn’t sitting on this reserve or any reserve. She knew the outside world and was able to strategically plan her life to be successful and creative. I don’t know if that really answers your question.

Chloe: Yeah, that’s great. And what about the way that creativity has played a role in your life?

Pam: Just again, seeing how she worked and realizing that you can pretty much obtain anything you want goal-wise and how you can be strategic in making things happen. Like I said, that one quote that I mentioned that stuck with me forever, just say yes and then think about it later, I’ve lived by that for a long time. I’ve worked really hard at carrying myself well, forever. Cause she’d always walk and carry herself, just this beautiful, stoic woman that you were like, holy smokes! My mom very much is exactly the same, but she was the older generation, and when you saw someone you could relate to... I mean, anywhere I’ve gone after I went to her training, I’ve always carried myself, everywhere across Canada, in a good way. I never went and partied, or got drunk or acted up or anything like that. I always did that, for... ever. To this day, like I walk in a room, like I went to the Bayshore Inn, a big event over there – I really don’t like going to the events like that, but I said, oh I better go, I’m getting a free meal, my auntie’s receiving an award, so I went – and people are like, “oh, you just sweep into a room! And I’m thinking, they don’t know that the black dress I had on, I have had that dress for 25 years! And I just wear a jacket and my own jewelry, and then you just stand out like you're very sophisticated if you know how to carry


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yourself, but that’s what I’ve been taught! Just by seeing how my matriarch and how Blanche carried herself. I think that’s one of the main things I’ve taken from her. And with Alexis and Allan, Alexis has always been more of a free spirit, very creative. And I think she got her mom’s creativity in regards to using her hands and being able to visualize photos and live her own life. ‘Cause sometimes you’re expected to do what your mom did, but she’s doing it in her own way. By writing this book, I think it’s really important that Blanche’s story is shared. Because you don’t want to lose her! You know, young women could read that and it could become part of some curriculum, somewhere. I even want to write a couple of books. I’ve even got the titles, but I can’t just sit down and do it. Yeah, I even want to do little comic books ‘cause my mom was so cute when she was little – she lived in villages and knows what it’s like to live in a cannery, and move from village to village, going to live in a big house and Indian dancing and but then now she’s in the modern world, and so you think about how you could do a cute little book and educate our young people. This is going off topic, but I just had lunch with my younger son, he’s 23. And he said, “mom I don’t feel like sitting down, I just like to get something and bring it back.” And I said, “No, you’re here, I’m in town, let’s sit down and touch base. And then we ran into his cousin, my niece, and I said “oh my son doesn’t want to sit down with me,” and she says, “you go sit down with your mom! You gotta sit cause she’s here right now.” And he says, “yeahhh, I’m going.” But we sat and we talked and talked, and he said that him and his friends are starting to write a book – couple of books. And I’m like, how many young 23 year-olds that you know, are already contemplating how they’re gonna write it? So I shared some things with him [record glitch]

Chloe: So that’s pretty much it, now I’ll just ask if you had any last thoughts or comments about Blanche or anything that we’ve talked about.

Pam: Yeah, I had something really good that I was thinking – it came to my mind and then I forgot it – it was quite powerful, but when I think about it I’ll email it to you or something. But it had something to do with her background... yeah it will come to me. But yeah, I don’t know, she was just, to me, she was a role model and


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I was luck to have her enter my life. The first day I saw her – really saw her – walk into the United Native Nations, I was like wow, there’s really an Indian woman like that? Wow, she’s got appointments, she’s in and out of the office, she’s flying around, she’s delegating. So she was one of the project coordinators. She was hired on to coordinate a conference, which, nowadays that’s easy, I’ve done big conferences too, and you just see that somebody could have the skills, and you just say, how do I harness and how do I train myself? You know I’ll sit her till midnight working. And I’m not getting paid, but I love what I’m doing. I was just reading, I got an invitation to Santa Fe Fashion Week – I just got the invitation, and I’m like, do I wanna go? Cause I know I wanna bust out onto the scene – I was really well known for quite some time up till the 2010 Olympics, I’ve been designing forever, and then I kinda just slipped off the radar for a while cause of this court deal we’re going through, my family. So I was just gonna chill out and move to Seattle for a while – rebuild and just get the strength to just conquer all of this crap that’s going on. I said if the end result is that my family has to pay the tribe anything, I want to pay it, so let’s just go to Seattle and make lots of money. Just say “here you blah-blah-blahs, here’s your cheque, now leave my family alone.” So that’s the way I think I can always support my family. I hire my sister, I hire my brother, I pay my brother for this... and I’m the youngest. So I pretty much think about how to always keep them all afloat. Why do you do that, you know? [Laughs] I could friggen move to Mexico and say “see you all later!” Oh that’s the other thing too! When I came back to Canada, and I was like, why do I come back here? Here, all the political tension and people backstabbing you left, right and centre, and I say to my mom, I wonder why I always come back. And she goes, “all fish come back to their spawning grounds.” [Laughs] And I was like, okay, where did she hear that from?! Or did she make it up? I don’t know, I never asked her where she heard that from. Yeah, you always come back to where you know best, I guess. This house, I’ve been in it for forever, and I’m always building onto it, and see people don’t like that. They think you’re a multi-millionaire or something, but I paid off my loan you know? I built it and paid it off in 10 years. But you now, the res mentality is just so stuck, and how do you change... that’s hopefully one of the goals my sons will be able to do. Or my sons one day too may


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just wanna say, “eff this crap. My mom’s done a lot for this community, and people don’t appreciate it, you know?” And then I say, ahh I’m done with this crap, I’m retiring from coaching basketball... and now I’m the head coach for Team BC for the Indigenous Games with 19 boys, so I’m glad I’m getting back in there! If I think of what I was going to say I’ll email it to you. I hope I was a help.


5. b) Interviews: Gail DavidsonChloe: So my first question is how did you know Blanche?

Gail: I met Blanche on my very first day at law school. Blanche and I were both at the law school at the University of British Columbia. That was in September of 1975.

Chloe: Okay, do you have any comments about Blanche and your relationship with her?

Gail: Oh yes, I have a lot of comments! I will first of all tell you how I met her. I had already had kind of a rough day, this was at midday – I met her in the middle of the day. And I had already been thrown out of not just my class, but my whole section – first class I attended. So, um, that was interesting, and I was an older student, I was in my 30s, and I was a little bit surprised by the fact that many of the people, most of the people at law school seemed to be younger than me and they seemed to be all, um... people coming from the same social and economic class. So when I walked into the coffee room, Blanche was standing at the coffee island in the middle of the room and... [laughs] I can’t believe she even became


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friends with me! I walked up to her, smiling, and said, “are you an Indian?” She said, “yes,” and I don’t know if we hugged then, figuratively or actually, and we were friends from that moment on. I was so thrilled to... I don’t know why I felt that we were comrades in a way, and we were friends ever after that. And Blanche was a very um – I feel like saying Blanche is because I very much feel, even though Blanche died in 1985, I still feel her influence over my life – she was a very radiant person. So, when I walked into the grey coffee room where she was, she was a very radiant person. She was a person who had a tremendous capacity for embracing people. So, she embraced people literally – she was very big on hugging people – but she also embraced people spiritually and emotionally and was supportive of them. She was a person who believed in the power of accepting people; that power to accept and believe in them, and therefore enable them to be the best that they could be. So, being Blanche’s friend and being accepted and chosen as one of her special friends was a hugely wonderful thing to be. We had lost of fun together. We also had lots of intellectual learning together.

Chloe: Do you have any specific memories about Blanche that stand out to you?

Gail: Yes, I have many, many memories. One of the memories is that everywhere we went, for sure, whether we would be on the bus, whether we would be walking, whether we’d be in some sort of shop or restaurant, whether we would be at the university, whether we would be at some kind of community gathering, always at some point, you could count on somebody at some point coming up to Blanche and starting out by saying, “excuse me, you might not reme-“ and they would get there and Blanche would say, “of course I do remember you!” And the person would then go on – it was always a woman – the person would then go on to say, “you changed my life,” and then they would tell some story of how Blanche had inspired them to believe in themselves. Yeah. So that was something that I not only remember that – of course I would remember that – but it’s also emblematic of what Blanche did, the gift that she gave people.


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Chloe: Can you recall anyway that Blanche may have had an impact on you and your life.

Gail: She had a big impact on me and other people in that she – through her example, not through her instruction, ‘cause that wasn’t really what she was like – allowed people to learn the value of not being judgmental. The value of recognizing automatic prejudices – not prejudices but I just mean the prejudices that you absorb from the culture – recognizing that setting them aside and then seeing the person that you are meeting for their own qualities and abilities and humility and beliefs and so on. Yeah, that was certainly one of the things that I learned from Blanche. I would say that I learned many things from her. I also learned the value of telling people when you admired people – when you admired a person, when you saw something special in a person – then I learned the value of saying that right away, saying it clearly and un- um, contaminated with any kind of artificiality. Just telling the person that; I certainly learned the value of that. And I learned a lot of negative things from Blanche – the power of racism, the negative power of racism. I learned about the sadness of hope, because Blanche of course was very hopeful and she believed in people, even people who weren’t very nice to her. And also she believed in her ability to overcome obstacles, and that wasn’t always possible. So, I guess I believe I learned also from Blanche, the power of privilege, because – I don’t come from a wealthy family, but I’m privileged and I’ve always seen myself as being – I didn’t before I walked into the law school – but I certainly learned more about that, knowing Blanche. That the privilege of being of the dominant, um, racial group, um, a member of the dominant racial group, and um... yeah.

Chloe: If you can in any way, describe Blanche and her qualities that stood out to you.

Gail: Well the things that I’ve described about her – essentially loving and forgiving and accepting nature and the fact that she was a very radiant person. She radiated a kind of inner beauty. She was outwardly very beautiful as well.


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And she was a very courageous person. She was personally courageous – she didn’t look to anybody to take care of her, or to make the way for her – make the way for her in the world. And you know, as all women – everyone brought up in the time the Blanche was brought up – we were all brought up in the grip of the 20th century... worship of image. And Blanche was able to use that as a tool to achieve independence and acceptance by the culture that had rejected her as being a – when she was a child, they rejected her as being halfbreed, which was what people said back then. And at the same time, she was also a prisoner of those images because when she sometimes, within First Nations culture people saw her image within a non-First Nations culture, people saw her image and that’s all they saw. And so they looked at her image and they saw a person of privilege, which of course she was privileged to be who she was, but she wasn’t a person of privilege at all. She wasn’t a person to come from privilege or who had any privilege that she could fall back on.

Chloe: Were you witness to any – I know you listed a couple of them already, but – any of the struggles or obstacles through Blanche’s life? And if so, do you recall how she dealt with them?

Gail: Certainly, I was witness to a great deal of the struggles and obstacles in her life, and I wouldn’t want to talk about all of them on this interview. And I also was witness to how Blanche dealt with them. And some of these struggles that I was witness to: I was witness to the struggle that she – [glitch in recording] other people had with law school; I was witness to the struggle that she made to make a positive contribution to the First Nations community; I was witness to her – not struggle, but her – ongoing life and seeking acceptance from a number of different communities; and I was witness to her struggle as a single woman and a single parent; and lastly I was witness to her struggle with lung cancer. And how did she deal with those struggles? With courage and with um, I would say a spiritual commitment to optimism because it was beyond just a commitment, it was that she was committed to being optimistic in the face of challenges seeming insurmountable. She dealt with those challenges with kindness I would say, and


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generosity towards other people. And very often, I though that that wasn’t actually deserved – the recipients of her kindness and generosity didn’t really deserve that. Although, I much appreciated the fact that she responded like that, cause I though, oh [laughs] that means that I’m always going to get generosity and kindness from Blanche also. My children adored her and so did I.

Chloe: Do you have any comments about The Blanche Macdonald School and what it maybe contributed to the community of Vancouver or British Columbia?

Gail: Um, I wouldn’t probably be the best person to talk about that, but the Blanche Macdonald school was an example of Blanche’s ability to believe in something. It was also an embodiment of Blanche’s grace. So, first of all, for her to have created that school as a Métis woman at the time when she did is incredible. It’s incredible because she was battling racism. Not overt racism, but covert racism. She was bucking a situation where people felt quite entitled to be overtly – did I say it was covert? It wasn’t covert, it was overt – people felt entitled to be overtly discriminatory. And, also she created the school at a time when it wasn’t very easy for a woman to create the school, and then she recreated the school as a single mom of two kids. So she created it on more than one occasion. She recreated it. The school – of course I never was a fashion follower. That wasn’t what I was like, and the whole time that Blanche and I had a very very close friendship, she never gave me a single bit of fashion advice in her life – it never came up! She never said, “oh you should wear makeup, why don’t you drop by the school?” It wasn’t an issue, like for Blanche, it wasn’t an issue. But of course I visited the school lots of times, and of course I knew lots about the school ‘cause it was very much a part of Blanche’s life. It was this kinda thing that she had to think about and worry about and take care of. It was like having a great big child... or a whole bunch of them! So I knew lots about the school, and I knew the people at the school, and um, one of the things – one of the threads that she made sure was always running through the school was her self appreciation classes, and this was invariably what people would come up and tell Blanche about how it was so wonderful, where she would give these classes in self


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appreciation. And certainly, the feeling of the school when I would go there, the seemingly the attitude of the people who worked there was all similar to Blanche, you know what I mean? It was all embracing and accepting. So when I would tromp in there in my threadbare corduroy pants and my great big boots, nobody ever, I didn’t feel at all apologetic, or I didn’t feel at all unaccepted. So to me, the whole school seemed like Blanche.

Chloe: In your opinion, would you describe Blanche as a feminist?

Gail: As a feminist? Definitely. Absolutely. Absolutely, yes. And it’s interesting, because you know before we had our interview today, you were showing me a lot of photographs of Blanche and they were all – not all – but many, the preponderants of them were image photographs. So if one only looked at those photographs, one might think, oh, was Blanche really a feminist? Because she was so, she seemed to be so into the image of um, you know in the 20th century, let’s say I’m sitting on this couch – women became let’s say a vehicle, an image vehicle from clothing to cars to houses, they [record glitch]

Chloe: Did she ever describe herself as a feminist, to your knowledge?

Gail: Oh yes, yeah.

Chloe: In your opinion, what was Blanche’s contribution to First Nations issues in Canada?

Gail: One of the important things that she did in her life was her involvement with Native Communications Society, and what she – just as an example – because what she gave to them wasn’t what she contributed to that organization, it wasn’t just her expertise as a business person. I admire her expertise as a business person, I just mean she knew how to take an idea and for grading and organization and to give life and reality to that idea. She knew how to go through those steps because she’d done that on a couple of occasions with her school. So


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she brought that to the Native Communications Society. Also, she brought certainly, a vision of what could be, and that was definitely another gift that Blanche had – was to look at the big big picture, and to say – so for instance with the Native Communications Society – the goal was to say, okay let’s have Native communications. Let’s have First Nations television and radio. Let’s start on the North, and we’re gonna start with having radio, and part of the radio will be in Indigenous languages. And then we’ll have a newspaper, and the newspaper will start out in English, but also with our newspaper, we’ll have a journalist training program for First Nations women, of course, had to be in there [laughs]. I think at first all the journalists were women but maybe I’m wrong. So she could have this big vision and really believe in it and say, “of course we can do it.” The newspaper was called Kahtou.

Chloe: Yeah, I think I’ve seen it! What do you think Blanche’s legacy was?

Gail: What was Blanche’s legacy, I think was that ability to both inspire and then believe in idealistic developments and as far as projects are concerned that would’ve been good for people. And also, with respect to individuals, to believe in the ideal of the individual and what each individual could be and contribute, and yeah, become.

Chloe: Almost done! Do you have any comments about the role that creativity or creative expression played in Blanche’s life, or your own life?

Gail: Well I think that it was completely central. And, I don’t mean that in a – creativity and creative expression, Blanche was an enormously creative person, because, in this way she was enormously creative, but what I mean basically is that Blanche was an independent thinker, she was really smart, and she really had a well developed critical thinking ability, so she could take a problem and say, “hmm, what would be the creative way to solve that problem?” And it isn’t all of us that can do that. And then she could fashion a solution and make that solution happen. She wasn’t as good at doing that for herself, as she was for other people


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and for, you know, social problems. And I don’t think that that’s an uncommon thing to say. She often didn’t focus her wonderful creativity on solving her own problems, but rather, she adjusted to them. So, does that answer your question? You said creative expression and creativity...

Chloe: Yeah, just the different ways that people approach creativity in regards to problems and just everyday situations.

Gail: Yeah... and you know in the later years of her life she started sculpting and it’s a pity that she didn’t start that a lot earlier. That was a very different thing for Blanche to do in this respect because Blanche’s creativity was all focused, before that, on other people. So it wasn’t focused on creating things just for herself or for the beauty of them, it was focused on helping to resolve other people’s problems and helping to run her business of course, which was a big creative endeavor, and um... So, when I saw what she did in sculpting, I thought, what a surprise!

Chloe: So my last question is just if you have any last comments about Blanche.

Gail: I think we’ve covered quite a bit, of course I could talk to you all day about Blanche. I just have to say that my friendship with her, for me, what very very special. There was three of us at university together – myself, a woman called Laura Alper, and Blanche and we became friends that first day in law school, and we stayed friends since then. I think I can say that it’s true for Laura as well that I’ve never um... I’ve never... adjusted I guess would be the word, to the death of Blanche. So even today, many many years since Blanche died in 1985, I regret that Blanche died. She was a wonderful source of light, and life, and love, and those things, no matter how depleted her energy was, no matter how underserviced her needs were, she was always, for people around her, a source for love, and light, and acceptance.

Chloe: Thank you very much. Final ReportMarch 2014

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Gail: Thank you Chloe.


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