Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower

8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower

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1 SUPERI OR COURT OF CALI FORNI A

2 COUNTY OF ALAMEDA

3 BEFORE THE HONORABLE J UDGE ROBERT MCGUI NESS

4 DEPARTMENT 22

5

6

7 J ANE DOE, ) No. HG115588324 )

8 Pl ai nt i f f , ) ) ASSI GNED FOR ALL PURPOSES TO

9 v. ) J UDGE ROBERT McGUI NESS, ) DEPARTMENT 22

10 WATCHTOWER BI BLE AND ) TRACT SOCI ETY OF NEW )11 YORK, I NC. , a )

cor por at i on, et al . , )12 )

Def endant s. )13 )

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ )14

15 J URY TRI AL

16 J UNE 5, 2012

17 DAY 5

18

19 ATKI NSON- BAKER, I NC.COURT REPORTERS

20 ( 800) 288- 3376www. depo. com

21

22 REPORTED BY: KATHRYN LLOYD, CSR NO. 5955

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24 J OB NO: A604D27

25


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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:

2 FOR THE PLAI NTI FF:

3 FURTADO, J ASPOVI CE & SI MONS

4 BY: RI CK SI MONS, ESQ.

5 BY: KELLY KRAETSCH, ESQ.

6 22274 Mai n St r eet

7 Haywar d, CA 94541

8 Tel : 510- 582- 1080

9 Fax: 510- 582- 8254

10 Emai l : Kel l yk@f j s l aw. com11 Emai l : Ri ck@f j s l aw. com

12

13 FOR THE DEFENDANTS:

14 THE NORTH FREMONT CONGREGATI ON OF

15 J EHOVAH' S WI TNESSES

16 THE McCABE LAW FI RM

17 BY: J AMES M. McCABE, ESQ.

18 4817 Sant a Moni ca Ave, Sui t e B

19 San Di ego, CA 92107

20 Tel : 619- 224- 2848

21 Fax: 619- 224- 0089

22 Emai l : J i m@mccabel aw. net

23

24

25 ( CONTI NUED)


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1 APPEARANCES ( CONTI NUED)

2 FOR THE DEFENDANT:

3 THE WATCHTOWER BI BLE AND TRACT SOCI ETY

4 OF NEW YORK, I NC.

5 J ACKSON LEWI S, LLP

6 BY: ROBERT SCHNACK, ESQ.

7 801 K St r eet , Sui t e 2300

8 Sacr ament o, CA 95814

9 Tel : ( 916) 341- 0404

10 Fax: ( 916) 341- 014111 Emai l : Schnackr @j acksonl ewi s . com

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1 I NDEX OF EXAMI NATI ONS:

2 PAGE

3 WI TNESSES FOR THE PLAI NTI FF :

4 WI TNESS: ELI ZABETH PONTON, M. D.

5 VOI R DI RE EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 21

6 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 29

7 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SCHNACK 48

8 REDI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 51

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10 WI TNESSES FOR DEFENDANT, NORTH FREMONT CONGREGATI ON11 OF J EHOVAH' S WI TNESSES:

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13 WI TNESS: BERNI CE MUNOZ

14 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 54

15 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 63

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17 WI TNESS: SYLVI A MUNOZ



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21 WI TNESS: PAMELA FI GUERI DO



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25 ( CONTI NUED)


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1 I NDEX OF EXAMI NATI ONS: ( CONTI NUED)

2 PAGE

3 WI TNESS: MONI CA APPLEWHI TE, Ph. D. ( by vi deot ape)



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7 WI TNESS: ALLEN SHUSTER



10 REDI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 18411

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1 I NDEX OF EXHI BI TS:

2 NUMBER ADMI TTED

3 Pl ai nt i f f ' s 60, Def endant ' s 29 163




7 ( EXHI BI TS NOT ATTACHED)

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1 J UNE 5, 2012 8: 02 A. M.

2 PROCEEDI NGS

3 ( Wher eupon t he f ol l owi ng pr oceedi ngs

4 wer e hear d out s i de t he pr esence of j ur or s)

5 THE COURT: On t he r ecor d, Candace Cont i

6 ver sus Wat cht ower Bi bl e and Tr ac t Soc i et y, I nc . , et al .

7 Counsel , what woul d you l i ke me t o addr ess

8 t hi s mor ni ng?

9 MR. SCHNACK: I see t hat Dr . Pont on i s i n t he

10 audi ence her e t oday. I want ed t o make sur e, gi ven t he11 deposi t i on t est i mony and some ot her t hi ngs t hat have

12 happened her e dur i ng t he t r i a l t hat she not ment i on

13 Kat hy Cont i ' s abuse by an e l der , t hat she not ment i on

14 t hat Kat hy Cont i - -

15 THE COURT: Why don' t you hol d because,

16 Doc t or , I want you t o l i s t en.

17 Doct or , why don' t you come on i n and si t i n

18 t he j ur y box .

19 Why don' t you come on up. Wel come. And l et

20 me get you set t l ed.

21 THE WI TNESS: Thank you.

22 MR. SCHNACK: And, agai n, t hat t her e be no

23 ment i on i n f r ont of a j ur y of Kat hy Cont i ' s abuse by an

24 el der . And, agai n, Kat hy Cont i i s Candace Cont i ' s

25 mot her . And Kat hy Cont i ' s par ent s wer e J ehovah' s


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1 Wi t nesses.

2 THE WI TNESS: I ' m j ust goi ng t o wr i t e some of

3 t hese down. Sor r y, your Honor .

4 THE COURT: Let ' s do t hat . So l et ' s go t opi c

5 number one. And, Doct or , I made - - j ust f or your

6 i nf or mat i on, I made a s er i es of r ul i ngs ef f ec t i vel y

7 det ai l i ng and put t i ng s t andar ds and l i mi t s i n ev i dence

8 on bot h s i des . So I want you t o l i s t en ver y c l ear l y as

9 t o what i s of f l i mi t s r el at i ve t o your t es t i mony.

10 F i r s t of al l , Kat hy Cont i hav i ng been abused11 by an el der i n J ehovah' s Wi t nesses.

12 THE WI TNESS: Okay.

13 MR. SCHNACK: And second t hi ng i s t hat Kat hy

14 Cont i ' s par ent s wer e J ehovah' s Wi t nesses.

15 THE WI TNESS: Okay. The gr andpar ent s f or

16 Candace.

17 MR. SCHNACK: Cor r ect .


19 MR. SCHNACK: That Kat hy Cont i was r ai s ed as

20 one of J ehovah' s Wi t nesses.

21 The onl y t hi ng t hat can be r ef er enced wi t h

22 r espect t o Kat hy Cont i i s t hat she was sexual l y abused

23 as a chi l d, per i od. Not hi ng wi t hi n t he chur ch, not hi ng

24 r ef er enc i ng t he chur ch i n t hat r egar d.

25 THE COURT: Al l r i ght .


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1 And i n f ai r ness , Doc t or , i n t er ms of cont ext ,

2 I have al l owed Ms. Cont i t o t es t i f y about hav i ng been

3 sexual l y abused.

4 THE WI TNESS: Uh- huh.

5 Was she unabl e t o ment i oned t hat i t was a

6 J ehovah' s Wi t nes s?

7 THE COURT: Ri ght . Absol ut el y . That ' s par t

8 of my or der s.


10 THE COURT: But we don' t want any ass oci at i on11 s t uf f r el at i ve t o t hat abus e i n t he c hur c h.

12 THE WI TNESS: Thank you.

13 MR. SCHNACK: The next t opi c deal s wi t h

14 del ayed r epor t i ng or del ayed di sc l osur e or as what mi ght

15 be cal l ed Chi l d Sexual Abus e Acc ommodat i on Syndr ome.

16 One i s t hat , al t hough t he syndr ome can be ment i oned, t he

17 cr edi bi l i t y of t he per son mak i ng t he del ayed r epor t

18 cannot be ment i oned.

19 THE WI TNESS: Thi s wi l l be a l i t t l e mor e

20 c onf us i ng, I t hi nk , f or me.

21 So I can ment i on t he s yndr ome - -

22 MR. SCHNACK: Sur e.

23 THE WI TNESS: - - t he Chi l dhood Acc ommodat i on

24 Syndr ome. But t he c r edi bi l i t y, I don' t qui t e under s t and

25 what you ar e sayi ng.


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1 MR. SCHNACK: You t est i f i ed t hat del ayed

2 r epor t s shoul d not be di scount ed, t hat t hey shoul d not

3 be vi ewed as not bei ng cr edi bl e j ust because t hey wer e

4 del ayed. And t hat you cannot do t hat her e t oday.


6 MR. SCHNACK: Do you under s t and t he r ul i ng?

7 THE COURT: Wel l , l et ' s t al k about t hat one,

8 Doc t or , j us t f or a mi nut e.

9 So l et ' s go - - you s ee, I haven' t s een t hi s

10 depos i t i on t est i mony.11 So you say t he Doct or t est i f i ed how? As t o

12 what ?

13 MR. SCHNACK: She t est i f i ed t hat del ayed

14 r epor t s o r del ayed di sc l osur e shoul d not be di scount ed

15 and not be bel i eved si mpl y because t hey wer e del ayed.

16 And, i ndeed, she went f ur t her t o say t hat ,

17 s t at i s t i cal l y, f al s e r epor t s cons t i t ut e, I mean, 2 t o

18 8 per cent of al l r epor t s , somet hi ng al ong t hat l i ne.

19 THE WI TNESS: Al l r i ght .

20 MR. SCHNACK: And t hat get s i nt o t he

21 c r e di bi l i t y of r epor t s . We di s c us s ed t hi s wi t h r es pec t

22 t o Car l L ewi s , Mr . Si mons t r i ed t o get hi m t o br i ng i t

23 i n. We had a coupl e s i de bar s.

24 THE COURT: Your Honor , I f ul l y under st and

25 and I know t he hi st or y.


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1 MR. SI MONS: I woul d di sagr ee wi t h t he

2 depi c t i on of Mr . Si mons t r y i ng t o get t hat i n.

3 THE COURT: Oh, don' t wor r y about t hat . I

4 t hi nk t hat i s j us t l awyer s bei ng l awyer s . But t he f al s e

5 r epor t i ng aspect s , I don' t t hi nk ar e ger mane t o what we

6 ar e doi ng her e. So t he t est i mony as t o what i s f al se

7 r epor t s and t he c r edi bi l i t y, t he i nf er r ed c r edi bi l i t y we

8 shoul dn' t be t al k i ng about . But t he del ay and t he

9 r easons why and what not , of cour se.

10 MR. SI MONS: Your Honor , i f I may, sor t of ,11 r es t at e t hat f or t he Doc t or .

12 What we ar e t r y i ng t o st ay away f r om i s any

13 t est i mony wher e we say, I f ound her bel i evabl e, or I

14 bel i eved her , or her t es t i mony i s cons i s t ent wi t h what

15 ot her vi ct i ms may show connect i ng Candace Cont i and t he

16 i s s ue of her c r edi bi l i t y di r ec t l y wi t h t he var i ous

17 st at i s t i cal and r esear ch i nf or mat i on t hat we have on

18 del ayed di sc l osur e.

19 THE COURT: And, Doct or , I don' t know how

20 many t i mes you have been an exper t wi t ness , but t he j ur y

21 has i t s f unct i on, you have your s wi t h t he exper t i se you

22 br i ng t o i t . And you ar e not t he j udge of t he

23 c r edi bi l i t y as pect s .

24 You know, you ar e s i t t i ng her e t o educat e t he

25 j ur y as t o t he nat ur e of t he syndr ome and t he


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1 c i r cumst ances wi t hout pi npoi nt i ng i t as t o t he

2 c r edi bi l i t y of a par t i c ul ar per s on.

3 THE WI TNESS: So i f I wer e t o say del ayed

4 di scl osur e i s ver y common i n chi l dhood sexual abuse

5 v i c t i ms , woul d t hat be - -

6 THE COURT: I t hi nk t hat ' s f i ne.


8 MR. SCHNACK: Your Honor , I do di sc our age

9 what Mr . Si mons ' sai d onl y t o t he ext ent t hat i t i s not

10 nar r owed t o what he sai d. Yes, you cannot t i e Candace11 Cont i ' s r epor t s . I bel i eve her t hat s he i s c r edi bl e

12 because of t he del ayed r epor t . But t hat i ndeed del ayed

13 r epor t s ar e c r e di bl e.

14 I t i s a gener al s t at ement as wel l t hat i t ' s

15 excl uded, not t hat i t ' s del ayed r epor t i ng i s common. I

16 don' t di sagr ee wi t h. But t he f act t hat t hey ar e common

17 and t hey shoul d not be di sbel i eved goes a st ep f ur t her .

18 THE COURT: I don' t di sagr ee wi t h t hat .

19 MR. SI MONS: And nei t her do I .

20 THE COURT: No.

21 MR. SCHNACK: So t he next t opi c I have i s t he

22 whol e i s sue of chur ch di sc i pl i ne. Your Honor , t he i s sue

23 of di s f el l owshi ppi ng t hat came up, what you cal l " t he

24 wal k i ng dead" i n your r epor t .

25 Any t hi ng r el at ed t o chur ch di sc i pl i ne, ot her


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1 t han J onat han Kendr i ck havi ng been r emoved as a

2 mi ni st er i a l ser vant i n t he November 11, 1993 r epor t ,

3 shoul d not be r ef er enced what soever .

4 THE WI TNESS: So r un t hi s by me agai n.

5 Mr . Kendr i ck' s was r emoved i s my

6 under st andi ng. I can say t hat , yes?

7 MR. SCHNACK: Yes .

8 THE WI TNESS: Bel i eve me, di s f e l l owshi p - - I

9 am not an exper t on t he f ai t h, s o I wi l l s t ay away f r om

10 t hat t opi c .11 MR. SCHNACK: I t doesn' t mat t er whet her you

12 ar e an exper t on i t , but t hat you shoul dn' t r ef er ence

13 t hat at al l .

14 THE COURT: Doct or , I want you t o know t hat I

15 r ul ed t hat ef f ec t i vel y di s f el l ows hi ppi ng i s a pr ot ec t e d

16 act i vi t y. You acknowl edged t o me t hat you ar e not an

17 exper t on t he pr ocess or t he nat ur e of t hat . St ay away

18 f r om t al k i ng about what happened t o Mr . Kendr i ck.

19 By t he chur ch, I have al l owed evi dence i nt o

20 t he f act t hat he had been r emoved as a mi ni st er i al

21 s er vant , but I don' t want any edi t or i al i z i ng on t hat

22 ei t her ot her t han acknowl edgment of t he f act .

23 MR. SCHNACK: And al ong wi t h t hat , no ot her

24 f or m of c hur ch di s ci pl i ne. I f t hey di dn' t di s f el l ows hi p

25 hi m, t hey shoul d have done somet hi ng el se. Not hi ng


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1 al ong t hat l i ne.

2 THE COURT: That ' s not your pr obl ems, Doct or ,

3 and nor i s i t har dl y ev i dence.

4 MR. SCHNACK: The next cat egor y I have, t her e

5 wer e sever al r ef er ences bot h i n your r epor t and wi t hi n

6 your t est i mony about chi l d abuse wi t hi n t he J ehovah' s

7 Wi t nesses chur ch or gani zat i on or wor ds t o t hose ef f ec t ,

8 t hat we ask be st r i cken as wel l and not r ef er enced

9 what soever her e.

10 MR. SI MONS: I agr ee.11 THE COURT: Now, Doct or , any quest i ons as t o

12 t h a t ?

13 Agai n, we ar e f ocus i ng on t hi s par t i cul ar

14 mat t er , not ot her goi ngs- on and what not .

15 THE WI TNESS: I wi l l do my best . But j ust ,

16 i f I am over s t eppi ng, pl eas e i nt er r upt me.

17 THE COURT: Oh, I can ass ur e you counsel

18 wi l l .

19 I am havi ng t hi s l i t t l e s es s i on t o avoi d - -

20 and i f you have any quest i ons - - because what I ' m goi ng

21 t o do i s I ' m goi ng t o di r ec t you t o obey t he r ul es I ' ve

22 al r eady made cont ext ual l y so t hat we don' t have i ss ues

23 wi t h t he j ur y.

24 And i f you have any quest i ons , t he poi nt i s

25 t o ask t hem now so we can make sur e we have a cl ean


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1 pr esent at i on.

2 MR. SCHNACK: And t hat ' s my concer n t oo wi t h

3 t he l as t comment , J udge, i s i f she f or ces us t o set up

4 and have anot her si de bar t hat we have t o do r epeat edl y,

5 t hat c r eat es t he pr obl em we ar e t r y i ng t o avoi d. So I

6 don' t appr ec i at e t hat you shoul d t r y. I t hi nk you

7 shoul d j us t do i t . That ' s my sugges t i on.

8 THE COURT: Wel l , gosh, I wi sh l i f e wer e

9 t hat - -

10 MR. SCHNACK: I do t oo, j udge, but we have11 had t o do a number of s i de bar s i n t hi s t r i al .

12 THE COURT: But I ' m a j udge t hat obser ves t he

13 j ur or s ' r eac t i ons and what not , and t hey under s t and i t ,

14 and I have t ol d t hem s pec i f i c al l y. So, c ouns el ,

15 under s t and t hi s , t hat I have a l ot of - - her e and I

16 t hi nk t hey get i t . I t hi nk t hey under s t and t he nat ur e

17 of t he pr ocess her e. And I t hi nk t hey ar e al l ver y much

18 on boar d under st andi ng what i s goi ng on and why.

19 But , Doc t or , I need - - we ar e goi ng t opi c t o

20 t opi c now t o ass i s t you i n t he or gani zat i on and

21 under s t andi ng so we can avoi d any pr obl ems .

22 I mean, we have al l been her e over t wo weeks

23 t o pr esent t hi s case and I have comment ed, whi ch i s r ar e

24 f or me, t hat counsel have gone t he ext r a number of

25 yar ds , i f not mi l es , t o make sur e t hat t he j ur y get s a


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1 c l ean pr esent at i on of each s i de of t hei r case. So I

2 need your at t ent i on and back i ng on t hat , at l east .

3 THE WI TNESS: Wel l , I wi l l make ever y at t empt

4 t o f ol l ow t hi s . I was j us t t hi nk i ng t hat t her e mi ght be

5 somet hi ng t hat I had not t hought about or known about .

6 That ' s al l . I ' m r eal l y i nt ent on f ol l owi ng t he r ul es .

7 THE COURT: I know. And i f you have any

8 quest i ons bef or e you answer , I wi l l al l ow a br eak j us t

9 so t her e i s no mi sunder st andi ng.

10 MR. SCHNACK: Ther e was al so r ef er ence i n t he11 r epor t t hat J onat han Kendr i ck was an e l der or t hat

12 Candace was abus ed by an el der wi t hi n t he chur ch.

13 Ther e has al r eady been an i nst r uct i on t hat he

14 was not i n t hat pos i t i on ever . So t hat shoul d be

15 exci sed f r om your t est i mony compl et el y .

16 THE COURT: And f or what ever r eason, and I ' m

17 not sur e what t he r eason i s, t her e was some

18 mi sunder st andi ng, i n at l east a coupl e ar eas o f ev i dence

19 her e, t hat Mr . Kendr i ck was an el der . He never was.

20 And I don' t know - - i t i s l i ke a vi r us . You get t hat i n

21 one r epor t and t hen you f i nd i t i n t hr ee r epor t s . But I

22 woul d want you t o know t hi s, as a mat t er of f act , he was

23 not an e l der .

24 THE WI TNESS: He ser ved i n t he capaci t y as a

25 mi ni s t er i al as s i s t ant .


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1 THE COURT: " Ser vant " i s , I t hi nk, what you

2 cal l i t .

3 MR. SCHNACK: Yeah. You di dn' t get t he name

4 r i ght . But i t i s " mi ni s t er i al s er v ant . "

5 THE WI TNESS: A mi ni st er i al ser vant . Okay.

6 Am I al l owed t o say t hat ?

7 THE COURT: Yes .


9 THE COURT: And act ual l y, i t has been a

10 wonder f ul educat i on f or t hi s Cour t i n t er ms of t he11 s t r uct ur e. But mi ni s t e r i al s er vant , I bel i eve, i s t he

12 t i t l e.

13 MR. SCHNACK: And t he l ast t hi ng I have i s,

14 agai n, because Paul I nman was r ef er enced yest er day when

15 she shoul dn' t have been dur i ng Car o l yn Mar t i nez ' s

16 t est i mony. We don' t want any r ef er ences t o Paul I nman.

17 The name I nman s houl d not be br ought up. And I di dn' t

18 see i t i n your t es t i mony, so t hat ' s pr obabl y not an

19 i s s ue.

20 THE COURT: I t hi nk we ar e gi vi ng I nman maybe

21 a l i t t l e mor e due t han he' s wor t h.

22 But , agai n, I don' t know what t hi s pr of ess i on

23 di d i n t er ms of I nman.

24 How i s I nman i n your r epor t ?

25 MR. SCHNACK: Di d you r evi ew any deposi t i ons


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1 of Paul I nman?

2 THE WI TNESS: Not t o my knowl edge.

3 MR. SCHNACK: Okay. So j ust don' t use t he

4 wor d " I nman" dur i ng your t est i mony, I t hi nk we wi l l be

5 f i ne.

6 THE COURT: I t sounds l i ke t hat i s al most a

7 gi ven.

8 MR. SI MONS: And I woul d, your Honor ,

9 di sagr ee wi t h t he Sov i et s t y l e of r emoval of Paul I nman

10 f r om hi s t or y . The f ac t t hat Car ol yn Mar t i nez was11 mar r i ed t o hi m was c er t ai nl y not , I t hi nk, i nt r us i ve i n

12 any way of t he Cour t ' s r ul i ngs .

13 THE COURT: Yeah, I di dn' t r egar d i t as a

14 make way pi eces of c i r cumst ance. I can have a l i t t l e

15 sket ch up her e t o t r y t o keep ever ybody, t he f ami l y t r ee

16 her e i n or der .

17 MR. SCHNACK: Wel l , we di sagr ee wi t h t he

18 scope of t he r ul i ng t hen.

19 But , nonet hel ess , f or our pur poses her e

20 t oday, t he wor d " I nman" shoul dn' t c r oss your l i ps ,

21 Doct or .

22 That ' s al l I have, Your Honor .

23 THE COURT: Al l r i ght .

24 And i f you want t o c hat wi t h Pl ai nt i f f ' s

25 c ouns el , agai n, I wi l l c er t ai nl y gi ve you an


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1 oppor t uni t y .

2 Al l r i ght . I ' m gl ad we had t hi s s es s i on.

3 You can r evi ew your not es and r el ax . We s t ar t at 8: 30

4 and I wi l l swear you i n at t hat poi nt i n t i me.

5 And, agai n, I wi l l advi s e you t o s t ay wi t hi n

6 t he l i nes of t he r ul i ngs I have made. And I have done

7 t hi s spec i f i cal l y because of wher e we ar e i n t he t r i al

8 and ever ybody' s good f a i t h ef f or t t o compl y.

9 Al l r i ght . Anyt hi ng el s e?

10 I saw your spec i al ver di c t . I haven' t had a11 c hanc e r eal l y t o c ons i der i t .

12 MR. SI MONS: That ' s f i ne, Your Honor .

13 Wer e you abl e t o open i t ?

14 THE COURT: I can open i t and - - i t coul d

15 onl y happen i n t hi s t r i al . For some r eason, when I get

16 emai l s f r om you, t hey won' t p r i nt . Somet i mes t hey wi l l

17 pr i nt f r om you; somet i mes t hey won' t .

18 I have had my I T guy i n her e once. He' s

19 goi ng t o be back i n her e.

20 But I have been abl e t o open i t and r ead i t .

21 I ' m j us t not abl e t o pr i nt of f of i t . I ' m havi ng my

22 c l er k pr i nt of f of her s .

23 MR. SI MONS: I t hi nk I have a har d copy her e

24 wi t h me t oday s omewher e.

25 THE COURT: Wel l , you sai d you wer e goi ng t o


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1 br i ng i t s o - -

2 MR. SI MONS: Yeah.

3 THE COURT: - - you know, wi t h pl ai nt i f f s '

4 l awyer s t her e' s al ways hope. So I was hopef ul you' d

5 show up wi t h i t .

6 MR. SI MONS: Yes. And I ' m wonder i ng - - I

7 di dn' t not i ce i t i n t he t op of my not es wher e i t usual l y

8 woul d be, and I ' m wonder i ng i f I wal ked out of t he door

9 wi t hout i t .

10 THE COURT: Wel l - -11 MR. SI MONS: But i n whi ch case I deci ded t o

12 br i ng i t - -

13 THE COURT: - - I am cer t ai nl y not goi ng t o

14 hol d you t o - -

15 ( Di scuss i on of f t he r ecor d)

16 MR. McCABE: You know, one t hi ng I not i ced i s

17 t hat , Your Honor , t hat i t l umps t he t wo def endant s

18 t oget her and I obj ec t t o t hat .

19 MR. SCHNACK: Ther e ar e ot her i ss ues.

20 ( Di scuss i on of f t he r ecor d)

21 ( Wher eupon t he f ol l owi ng pr oceedi ngs

22 wer e hear d i n t he pr esence of j ur or s)

23 THE COURT: Good mor ni ng, Ladi es and

24 Gent l emen of t he j ur y.

25 Mr . Si mons?


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1 MR. SI MONS: Yes, your Honor .

2 The Pl ai nt i f f woul d cal l Dr . L ynn Pont on.

3

4 LYNN PONTON, M. D.

5 WAS DULY SWORN TO TEL L THE TRUTH BY THE CLERK

6 AND TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS:

7

8 THE CLERK: Woul d you pl ease s t at e your name

9 and spel l your f i r s t and l as t name f or t he recor d.

10 THE WI TNESS: Cer t ai nl y.11 L ynn, L - Y- N- N, El i s abet h, E- L - I - S- A- B- E- T- H,

12 Pont on, P- O- N- T- O- N, M. D.

13

14 VOI R DI RE EXAMI NATI ON

15 BY MR. SI MONS:

16 Q. Dr . Pont on, what i s your occupat i on?

17 A. I am a c hi l d and adol es c ent ps yc hi at r i s t and

18 a pr of essor of chi l d and adol escent psychi at r y at t he

19 Uni ver s i t y of Cal i f or ni a i n San F ranc i sco at UCSF .

20 Q. And coul d you t e l l us , pl ease, about your

21 f or mal educat i on.

22 A. Yes , I wi l l . Hopef ul l y, I wi l l r emember i t .

23 I am f r om a Fr ench Canadi an backgr ound f r om

24 Nor t her n Wi sconsi n. Went t o t he Uni ver s i t y of Wi sconsi n

25 i n Madi son, and st udi ed Engl i sh and bi ochemi st r y. Then


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1 f ol l owed t hat up and went t o t he Uni ver s i t y of Wi scons i n

2 Medi cal School .

3 Af t er t hat , I compl et ed medi cal school i n

4 1978 and t hen t r ai ned i n pedi at r i cs i n New Yor k Ci t y at

5 Bel l evue and St . Vi ncent ' s Hospi t al .

6 And t hen f ol l owi ng t hat , I went t o t he

7 Uni ver s i t y of Pennsy l vani a i n Phi l adel phi a and t r ai ned

8 i n adul t ps yc hi at r y.

9 Then I came her e t o t he Uni ver si t y of

10 Cal i f or ni a i n San Fr anc i s co. I t r ai ned i n c hi l dhood11 adol es c ent ps yc hi at r y, f el l ows hi p, f or t hr ee year s .

12 And t hen I s t ayed on as f acul t y . And I have

13 been at t he Uni ver s i t y of Cal i f or ni a i n San F ranc i sco

14 si nce 1980 t eachi ng and wor ki ng.

15 I n addi t i on, I have ps yc hoanal yt i c t r ai ni ng

16 and I ' m a t r ai ned psychoanal yst at t he San F r anc i sco

17 Ps yc hoanal yt i c Cl i ni c .

18 So I do a l ot of t eachi ng, pr obabl y t he mai n

19 doct or t her e who t eaches i n t he ar ea of adol escent

20 psychi at r y . And I wor k wi t h al l t he k i ds wi t h cancer

21 and psychol ogi cal pr obl ems at Mof f et t Long. So i t i s a

22 gr eat j ob, and I get t o wor k wi t h some gr eat peopl e.

23 Q. Can you t el l us i f you ar e boar d cer t i f i ed?

24 A. Yes, Mr . Si mons.

25 I am boar d c er t i f i ed i n adul t ps yc hi at r y and


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1 i n chi l d and adol escent psychi at r y . Bot h wer e obt ai ned

2 i n 1985.

3 And t hen f ol l owi ng t hat , I wor ked f or bot h

4 t he boar ds, and I have been a boar d exami ner f r om 1985

5 t o t he pr esent t i me.

6 I n my ar ea of exper t i se , chi l d and a

7 adol escent s, I ser ved on t he boar d commi t t ee and wr ot e

8 t he psychi at r y boar ds , bot h adul t and chi l d and

9 adol escent s , f or t en year s .

10 So I ' m ver y i nvol ved i n r eal l y hel pi ng young11 psychi at r i s t s l ear n about t he f i el d and hopef ul l y pass

12 t hei r t est s and go out and wor k wi t h peopl e.

13 Q. Now, what does i t mean t o be " boar d

14 cer t i f i ed" ?

15 A. A coupl e di f f er ent t hi ngs , Mr . Si mons .

16 I t i s a l engt hy pr ocess because you have t o

17 f i r s t pass t he Amer i can Medi cal Boar ds , t hr ee par t s , and

18 get your bas i c l i censur e.

19 Then, wi t hi n your subspec i al t i es , your

20 spec i a l t y ar eas, you have t o t ake bot h an or al and a

21 wr i t t en exam.

22 Unf or t unat el y, f or t he young doc t or s , i t

23 cost s a l ot of money and t i me, and we ar e t r yi ng t o l ook

24 at how t o make i t as expedi ent as possi bl e so we can

25 r eal l y educat e mor e doct or s .


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1 Q. And, Doct or , af t er havi ng t aken t he exam

2 your sel f , now you wor k on cr eat i ng t he exami nat i ons f or

3 t hese f ut ur e spec i al i s t s i n adul t and chi l d psychol ogy?

4 A. That ' s cor r ect . I do. I l ove wr i t i ng. You

5 k now, I s ound l i ke I ' m a ner d. But wr i t i ng i s my

6 s t r onges t s ki l l pr obabl y bec aus e I s t udi ed Engl i s h i n

7 addi t i on t o chemi st r y . And t hat ' s pr obabl y why I have

8 been abl e t o be adept i n cer t ai n ar eas.

9 Q. Tel l us a l i t t l e bi t about t he wr i t i ng t hat

10 you have done dur i ng your car eer .11 A. I have wr i t t en - - t o be a f ul l pr of es s or at

12 t he Uni ver s i t y of Cal i f or ni a. That , I have t o s ay, was

13 not easy f or a woman. I n 1989, I sued t he Uni ver s i t y of

14 Cal i f or ni a, Cl ass Ac t i on f or t he Women' s Facul t y . And I

15 won equal pay and equal advancement f or Women' s Facul t y

16 i n a c l as s s ui t .

17 I obt ai ned t enur e bef or e t hat t i me and t hen

18 had some st r uggl es wi t h t hem, as mi ght be expect ed.

19 So I am ver y ac t i ve at t he uni ver s i t y t r yi ng

20 t o wel come young f acul t y, and r eal l y f acul t y f r om al l

21 backgr ounds and hel p t hem t o become t eacher s and

22 c l i ni c i ans t her e.

23 I have wr i t t en pr obabl y about - - you know, I

24 woul d have t o l ook at t he CV because t hey change ever y

25 coupl e of t i mes , and see how i t i s l i s t ed her e - - but


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1 s omewher e bet ween 125 and 150 ar t i cl es.

2 I have wr i t t en The Text book of Adol escent

3 Ps yc hi at r y. I ' m one of t he f i ve aut hor s on t hat . The

4 Handbook of Adol escent Ri sk Taki ng.

5 I have wr i t t en ot her t hi ngs . I have wr i t t en

6 some popul ar books about r i sk- t ak i ng behavi or s ,

7 sexual i t y , sexual abuse, t hat ar e wel l known, and I have

8 al s o wr i t t en f i c t i on.

9 Q. Ar e you l i censed as a doc t or i n Cal i f or ni a?

10 A. Yes, I am. I have been si nce I moved her e i n11 1980.

12 Q. And have you had speci al i zed exper i ence and

13 t r ai ni ng i n t he f i el d of chi l dhood and adol escent sexual

14 abuse?

15 A. Yes.

16 I had t he good f or t une t o have t r ai ned i n

17 pedi at r i cs i n New Yor k Ci t y when t he f i r st mandat or y

18 r epor t i ng was comi ng about . And I r emember t he f i r st

19 case t hat I had t o r epor t as an i nt er n at Bel l evue. And

20 t hr ee daught er s wer e abused by t hei r f at her . And t hey

21 sai d - - I r emember my at t endi ng sayi ng, " We have a new

22 r ul e t hat you ar e goi ng t o have t o repor t t hese cases . "

23 And i t t ook me a l l day t o wr i t e t hem up and

24 r epor t t hem. And t hat , I have t o t el l you, has

25 cont i nued over t hese 35 year s . Ther e i s a l ot of


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1 r epor t i ng.

2 At UC, we r epor t about one case a week i n

3 Mof f et t Long of sexual abuse. So I have t r ai ned t he

4 younger doct or s i n how t o do t hat . I wor k wi t h t he

5 soci al wor k t eam. And I wor k ac t ual l y wi t h t he s t at e

6 agency s ome t oo.

7 Q. Now, i n your t eachi ng assi gnment , who ar e t he

8 st udent s t hat you ar e t eachi ng?

9 A. I t each young and chi l d adol escent

10 psychi at r i s t s , and t hen al so t he pedi at r i c i ans because11 t hey have t o be al er t ed about sexual abuse r epor t i ng.

12 The nur s i ng s t af f at UC, so, ps ychol ogi s t s who ar e

13 t r ai ni ng t her e and soc i al wor ker s .

14 I t i s r eal l y a wonder f ul env i r onment t o wor k

15 i n, a col l abor at i ve envi r onment of about 45 t o 50 peopl e

16 wor k i ng as a t eam t o hel p t he k i ds .

17 Q. Now, do you act ual l y see pat i ent s? You cal l

18 i t , I gues s, c l i ni cal pr act i ce.

19 I s t hat t he r i ght t er m?

20 A. I s ee pat i ent s i n t wo c ont ext s . I n t he

21 mor ni ng - - not t oday because I ' m her e - - but we have

22 wal k- ar ounds, and we wi l l see t he cases t hat ar e i n t he

23 hospi t al at UC. And I ' m t he mai n at t endi ng. And t her e

24 i s a gr oup of ot her at t endi ngs of younger doct or s . We

25 wal k ar ound wi t h t he ki ds wi t h cancer .


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1 One of t he boys i s dyi ng t oday who has

2 cancer . And t he t eam i s meet i ng wi t h hi m and wi t h hi s

3 f at her t o r eal l y hel p t hem ac cept t he s i t uat i on. He i s

4 ver y t r aumat i zed by i t and i s i n t he i nt ens i ve car e

5 uni t . And I wor k wi t h al l of t hose i npat i ent cases .

6 And I ' m i nvol ved i n bot h t he psychol ogi cal and some of

7 t he medi cal ar eas r el at ed t o i t .

8 I ' m qui t e knowl edgeabl e about pai n cont r ol as

9 connec t ed wi t h psychol ogi cal aspec t s o f i l l ness .

10 Then i n t he af t er noon, I see t he pat i ent s i n11 t he out pat i ent set t i ng. Usual l y about 25 t o 30 per

12 week.

13 I ' m known par t i cul ar l y f or wor k i ng wi t h young

14 peopl e, l i ke Candace Cont i , so t he age gr oup of young

15 peopl e, bot h boys and young men who have been abus ed

16 t oo.

17 Sadl y, many young men have been abused al so,

18 and i t i s not as wel l - known. You know, somet i mes t he

19 Cat hol i c pr i est abuse cases have made i t mor e f ami l i ar

20 t o peopl e, and some of t he cases wi t h coaches. And I

21 wor k wi t h t hose cases t oo.

22 And i n t he af t er noon, I see a l ot of pat i ent s

23 and I enj oy t hat . And hopef ul l y I ' m done by 7: 00 t o

24 have di nner wi t h my husband, or i f any of my ki ds ar e i n

25 t own, you know, I have di nner wi t h t hem. I t r y t o get


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1 t hem t o have di nner wi t h me.

2 Q. Have you exper i enced, out si de of t he

3 Uni ver s i t y set t i ng, wi t h chi l dhood t r auma, and i n

4 par t i cul ar wi t h addr ess i ng pr ogr ams f or chi l dhood

5 t r auma?

6 A. Oh, yes . I ' m ver y ac t i ve wor ki ng wi t h t he

7 Amer i can Psychi at r i c Assoc i at i on and wi t h t he Amer i can

8 Academy of Chi l d and Adol escent Psychi at r y.

9 I was t he f oundi ng chai r i n t he ' 80s of t he

10 Di s ast er and Tr auma Commi t t ee f or t he Amer i can Academy.11 You pr obabl y appr eci at e t hi s because I got

12 t he i dea af t er t he Loma Pr i et a ear t hquake, when I

13 wat ched my own chi l dr en r eact t o t he ear t hquake and have

14 a l ot of t r aumat i c s ympt oms.

15 And t hen we or gani zed t own meet i ngs f or

16 Oakl and and San Fr anci sco and f or Mar i n f or par ent s

17 about how t o hel p your chi l dr en wi t hi n a f ew days af t er

18 t he ear t hquake. I a l so wor ked wi t h t he Oakl and F i r e.

19 And I ' m c ur r ent l y ver y i nvol ved i n t he San Br uno f i r e

20 cases.

21 So my exper t i se i s r eal l y deal i ng wi t h

22 post - t r aumat i c s t r ess d i sor der and di sast er and t r auma.

23 I t hi nk what I am most wel l - known f or i n t hat ar ea i s

24 t hat I went on nat i onal t el evi s i on and t hen went t o New

25 Yor k Ci t y af t er 2011 - - or Sept ember 11t h, and went on


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1 af t er Pr es i dent Bush t o t al k about hel pi ng t he nat i on' s

2 c hi l dr en wi t h pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der .

3 So I know a l ot about t hat ar ea and

4 espec i al l y how t o hel p chi l dr en, adol escent s and adul t s

5 r educe t hei r t r auma l oad r eal l y t hr ough a l i f et i me of

6 bei ng i n a t r aumat i c event .

7 MR. SI MONS: Your Honor , I woul d of f er Dr .

8 Pont on as an exper t i n t he f i el d of psychi at r y and chi l d

9 and adol escent psychi at r y.

10 THE COURT: Any quest i ons f or Dr . Pont on?11 MR. McCABE: No, your Honor .

12 MR. SCHNACK: No.

13 THE COURT: I woul d f i nd her qual i f i ed as an

14 exper t f or t he t wo r easons s ought .

15 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON

16 BY MR. SI MONS:

17 Q. Now, Dr . Pont on, di d I ask you t o eval uat e

18 Candace Cont i ?

19 A. You di d, Mr . Si mons.

20 Q. And di d you meet wi t h her ?

21 A. I di d. I met wi t h her sever al t i mes .

22 Q. And i n addi t i on t o meet i ng wi t h her , di d you

23 r evi ew some ot her mat er i al s?

24 A. I di d.

25 I want t o f ol l ow al l t he gui del i nes her e, but


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1 I r evi ewed a number of deposi t i ons and medi cal r ecor ds

2 and many document s, r ea l l y l ooki ng at t hem r el at ed t o

3 t hi s c as e.

4 Q. Di d you r evi ew Candace' s medi cal r ecor ds,

5 i nc l udi ng t he medi cal r ecor ds f r om her chi l dhood and

6 adol escent year s?

7 A. I di d.

8 Q. And di d you r evi ew t he deposi t i ons of var i ous

9 heal t h car e pr ovi der s who have t r eat ed Candace over

10 t i me?11 A. I di d, Mr . Si mons .

12 Q. When was t he f i r st i nt er v i ew t hat you had

13 wi t h Candace Cont i ?

14 A. Let me l ook at t hi s and make sur e of t hi s .

15 I t hi nk t he dat e was i ncor r ect on my

16 eval uat i on, but I saw her i n t he f al l of 2011. And I

17 bel i eve t he f i r st dat e was Sept ember 20t h, 2011.

18 Q. And when was t he l ast dat e t hat you s aw her ?

19 A. I don' t have i t . I woul d have t o check my

20 bi l l i ng r ec or ds , but I woul d s ay wi t hi n t he l as t t wo

21 mont hs I met wi t h her .

22 Q. Di d you devel op an opi ni on as t o whet her or

23 not t he chi l dhood sexual abuse Candace Cont i exper i enced

24 was a cause of har m t o her ?

25 A. Yes, I have, Mr . Si mons.


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1 Q. And what i s your opi ni on i n t hat r egar d?

2 A. I bel i eve t hat t he chi l dhood sexual abuse

3 such as Candace Cont i endur ed f or a l engt hy per i od of

4 t i me s i gni f i cant l y har med her .

5 Q. And you ment i oned ear l i er post - t r aumat i c

6 s t r ess d i sor der , PTSD.

7 What i s pos t - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der ?

8 A. Post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der came out

9 af t er , ac t ual l y, t he war t hat t he wor l d has par t i c i pat ed

10 i n.11 We pr obabl y saw t he f i r st cases of t he Shel l

12 Shock Syndr ome, you know, af t er Wor l d War I and Wor l d

13 War I I . Even t he Spani sh Amer i can War had ear l y

14 r epor t i ngs of i t . You can see t hr oughout t i me - - or

15 human t i me - - s t or i es r ef er r i ng t o i t .

16 But begi nni ng i n t he ' 80s - - af t er ' 70s and

17 ' 80s , af t er Vi et nam, and par t i c ul ar l y at t he Uni ver s i t y

18 of Pennsyl vani a wher e I wor ked, we wor ked wi t h a l ot of

19 Vi et nam Vet s and i t came up. Real l y s t ar t ed t o see a

20 syndr ome. At f i r s t t hey at t r i but ed i t t o Agent Or ange

21 i n t he Vi et nam war . And t hen t hey r eal i zed t hat i t was

22 some sor t of anx i et y di sorder .

23 And pos t - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der i s a

24 anxi et y di s or der . So i t i s i mpor t ant t o k eep t hat i n

25 mi nd.


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1 Ot her anx i et i es ar e gl obal . Ther e i s a

2 gl obal anxi et y di sor der t hat i s ver y common. Fear s .

3 Spec i f i c f ear s ar e al s o anxi et y di s or der s . But t hey ar e

4 t r aumat i c , r eal l y, event s t hat r eal l y awaken i n t he

5 body, psychol ogi cal and physi cal r esponses.

6 So wi t h pos t - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der - -

7 whi ch I somet i mes cal l i t t he Queen of Anxi et y Di sor der s

8 - - t her e i s a t r aumat i c event t hat makes t he per son f eel

9 t hat r eal l y under ver y ser i ous t hr eat or j eopar dy t hat

10 occur s i n t hat way. I t can be a f i r e, such as t hose who11 wi t nessed t he San Br uno f i r e.

12 Sexual abuse makes a chi l d f eel ver y

13 t hr eat ened i n t er ms of body i nt egr i t y. And t he DSM,

14 whi ch i s our di agnos t i c manual i n psychi at r y , t hi s r ed

15 book , i t r eal l y desc r i bes how wi t h chi l dr en, pos t - sexual

16 abuse, r eal l y makes t hem f eel t r aumat i zed and at t acked.

17 Because you can see, i t i s har d t o see, but a

18 f i r e and a s exual abus er , i f you' r e a c hi l d, ar e

19 s i mi l ar . But t hey r eal l y ar e s i mi l ar i n t er ms of some

20 of t he body' s r esponse t o i t .

21 So t her e' s a t r aumat i c event . I t r eal l y

22 di s t ur bs t he f unct i oni ng of t he young per son. And t hat

23 can be how t hey do i n school , how t hei r emot i onal st at e,

24 t hei r phys i cal r esponse.

25 And t hen t her e ar e t hr ee cat egor i es of


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1 sympt oms t hat we' r e r eal l y l ook i ng at . The f i r s t one,

2 al most ever ybody knows about . The r e- exper i enci ng

3 sympt oms, whi ch ar e l i ke f l ashbacks, bad dr eams, t hat

4 you j us t can' t f or get t hi s t r auma. You can' t get i t out

5 of your mi nd and i t keeps c omi ng back.

6 And wi t h Ms. Cont i , one of t he most

7 di s t ur bi ng t hi ngs - - s he i s qui t e a wel l - r ead young

8 woman, and t he f i r s t t o r eal l y descr i be Edgar Al l an

9 Poe' s The Pi t and t he Pendul um st or y t o me.

10 But s he f eel s l i ke s he i s down i n t he pi t i n11 her dr eams and s he i s bei ng hel d down and abused. And

12 t hat r ecur r ent dr eam r eal l y r e- enac t s t he t r auma t hat

13 she has exper i enced. So t he r e- exper i enci ng sympt oms

14 ar e ver y i mpor t ant .

15 The s econd cat egor y ar e avoi dance s ympt oms .

16 You t r y t o avoi d t hi nk i ng about , f eel i ng or t al ki ng

17 about t he t r aumat i c event . And we have al l done t hat .

18 I r eal l y s t r ongl y enc our age avoi danc e, i f t her e i s a

19 t r aumat i c event i n pl ay and i t i s on t he t el ev i s i on.

20 You don' t want t o wat ch i t . You don' t want t o expos e

21 your chi l dr en t o t he t r auma of t he r epeat ed v i ewi ngs of

22 v i deos t hat ar e t r aumat i c .

23 So t hat as pec t i s r eal l y, r eal l y i mpor t ant t o

24 use s ome avoi dance.

25 But i f you avoi d i t c ompl et el y, t hen i t s t i l l


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1 i s i ns i de you, as i t was wi t h Ms . Cont i . She avoi ded

2 t al ki ng about i t . Real l y hi d i t . Not f eel i ng s af e t o

3 t al k about i t . And i t r eal l y af f ec t e d her i nt er nal

4 wor l d i n a ver y i mpor t ant way and cont r i but ed, I t hi nk ,

5 t o some of her s i gni f i cant pr obl ems, you know, whi ch

6 wer e subst ances and al so depr essi on, you know, t hat wer e

7 used, I t hi nk , t o soot he her and hel p her wi t h t hi s .

8 The t hi r d cat egor y ar e physi cal sympt oms wi t h

9 post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der . And t hat can be

10 hyper vi gi l ance, you ar e j umpy, you ar e wat chf ul , you ar e11 r eal l y c hec ki ng t hi ngs out . You ar e c ar ef ul l y l ooki ng

12 at ever yt hi ng because you have been t hr ough somet hi ng

13 t hat has r eal l y t aught you t o wat ch t hi ngs i n a

14 di f f er ent way.

15 So t hat ' s what t he di agnos i s i s . That i s how

16 i t i s made, t hr ough t he t hr ee cat egor i es . And t hat i s

17 r eal l y t he way we t hi nk about i t .

18 Q. Do you have an opi ni on, wi t h r easonabl e,

19 pr of ess i onal cer t a i nt y, based on your knowl edge and

20 educat i on and t r ai ni ng, and your wor k i n t hi s spec i f i c

21 case, as t o whet her or not Candace Cont i exper i enced

22 post - t r aumat i c st r ess s yndr ome as a r esul t o f her s exual

23 abuse?

24 A. I do, Mr . Si mons .

25 Q. And what i s your opi ni on?


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1 A. That she has sever e chr oni c post - t r aumat i c

2 s t r es s di s or der .

3 Q. You used t he wor d " chr oni c. " What does t hat

4 r ef er t o?

5 A. Chr oni c means t hat i t ' s l as t ed l onger t han

6 s i x mont hs . And, f or her , i t has l as t ed f or y ear s .

7 Q. And i f we coul d l ook at Exhi bi t 55.

8 Now, you ment i oned t hat you had r evi ewed Ms .

9 Cont i ' s medi cal r ecor ds?

10 A. That ' s c or r ec t . I have. And I ac t ual l y11 t agged t hi s and my copy of i t . Thi s par t i cul ar r ecor d,

12 I t hi nk I have i t .

13 Q. And t hi s i s a r ecor d f r om August of 2002.

14 A. That ' s c or r ec t .

15 Q. Why i s t hi s r ec or d s i gni f i c ant t o you i n

16 f or mi ng your opi ni ons? And par t i cul ar l y wi t h r egar d t o

17 t he opi ni on you j ust expr essed about chr oni c PTSD.

18 A. Wel l , t hi s i s an ear l y di s c l os ur e of abus e.

19 I mean, i t i s r eal l y goi ng t o be, you know, year s bef or e

20 Ms. Cont i i s f or t unat e enough t o get t he t r eat ment t hat

21 she needs.

22 But i f we l ook - - l ook at t he s t ar - - t hi s i s

23 Dr . Af r uma' s r epor t . And i f you l ook mi dway down t her e,

24 t he abuse i s r epor t ed, pr esumabl y, by Candace t o hi m f or

25 age 9 t o 13. And i t i s i nt er es t i ng - - t hat ' s an


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1 appr oxi mat e, you know, age. And I woul d guess t hat

2 Candace sai d t hat she had been abused f or a coupl e of

3 year s.

4 Why t hi s i s i mpor t ant i s she i s much younger

5 at t hi s poi nt i n t i me, but s he i s gi vi ng t hi s

6 di s cl os ur e. And i t r eal l y ai ds i n cr edi bi l i t y and i t i s

7 r eal l y l ook i ng at t he s t or y over t i me.

8 So i t i s i mpor t ant t hat t hat had come up and

9 she was t hi nk i ng about i t . I t i s i mpor t ant t o know, i n

10 sexual abuse, t hat i t can be di sc l osed and t hen t he11 per son get s scar ed agai n and doesn' t t al k about i t . So

12 i t has t o do, r eal l y, wi t h how s af e you f eel i n t he

13 env i r onment t al k i ng about i t .

14 So she t al ks about i t her e. She al so

15 acknowl edges , at t hi s poi nt , t hat i t began at about 9

16 year s of age when she was a ver y young chi l d. And you

17 have t o t hi nk, 9 i s ver y young. I t i s r eal l y an

18 el ement ar y st udent . And you see t hose ki ds on t he

19 pl aygr ound, pr obabl y have your own gr andki ds and ki ds,

20 and t hey ar e ver y, ver y young.

21 I t hi nk what i s i nt er es t i ng about t hi s - - and

22 I have t o say somet hi ng about our pedi at r i c gr oup, whi ch

23 I ' m par t of t oo wi t h s ome t r ai ni ng - - i t i s wr i t t en,

24 " not di s c us s ed f ur t her . "

25 And I wi l l j us t say somet hi ng about i t , not


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1 s o much a comment about Candace, of t en t hey do not s ay

2 " not di scussed f ur t her " because t her e i s t he quest i on of

3 mandat or y r epor t i ng appl i cabl e at t hi s poi nt i n t i me.

4 And t hey say t hat because t hat cover s t hem i n t er ms of

5 not r epor t i ng.

6 So I t hi nk t hat t hat ' s why t hat i s wr i t t en i n

7 t hat par t i cul ar way, but i t suppor t s Candace' s l at er

8 di s cl os ur e.

9 MR. SCHNACK: Your Honor , can we have a s i de

10 bar , pl ease?11 THE COURT: Sur e.

12 ( Si debar Di scuss i on)

13 BY MR. SI MONS:

14 Q. Let ' s l ook at t he second page of t he Dr .

15 Af r uma' s heal t h f or m, August 2002.

16 Now, ar e you f ami l i ar wi t h t he st andar d

17 medi cal r ecor dkeepi ng t echni ques?

18 A. I have t o say t hat we j ust went t o Apex t oday

19 at UC. And not bei ng t her e, I am mi ss i ng bei ng or i ent ed

20 on i t . And s o i t i s c hangi ng. But I r ead a l ot of

21 medi cal r ecor ds ever y day. Yeah.

22 Q. I s t her e a s t andar d des i gnat i on f or t he " OAP"

23 t hat we see i n t he mi ddl e?

24 A. Yes . I t i s ac t ual l y " SOAP" . They ar e c al l ed

25 " SOAP not es. " Subj ect i ve Obj ect i ve Ass essment and Pl an


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1 i s what t hey mean. I t i s our s t andar d f or mat t i ng f or

2 not es. Not ever ybody uses i t . And i t has become

3 r eal l y - - we ar e goi ng t o t he box syst em wi t h Apex al l

4 over t he count r y . I t s t ar t s t oday at UCSF . And we

5 check boxes. And we ar e usi ng a new f or mat . So SOAP i s

6 pr obabl y goi ng t o go by t he ways i de. So i t i s

7 chal l engi ng.

8 But what i s i mpor t ant her e i s , i f you l ook at

9 t he assessment par t t her e, t hese ar e t he doct or s '

10 di agnoses and post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sorder , depr ess i on11 and i nsomni a. And t hen t he r ecommendat i on under t he

12 pl an i s r eal l y encour aged t o di scuss wi t h t he counse l or ,

13 ps yc hi at r i s t , c ons i der c ogni t i ve t her apy as par t of t he

14 t r eat ment pl an.

15 And I t hi nk t hat ' s - - what cogni t i ve t her apy

16 i s , c ogni t i ve t her apy i s a t her apy t hat t ar get s

17 t hought s. And cogni t i ve t her apy was devel oped by Aar on

18 Beck at t he Uni ver s i t y of Pennsy l vani a. And i t r eal l y

19 i s us ef ul i n r ec ur r ent t hought s f r om pos t - t r aumat i c

20 s t r es s di s or der i n hel pi ng t he i ndi vi dual t o c ope wi t h

21 t hem.

22 You gener al l y need i t , al ong wi t h a l ot of

23 ot her t r eat ment i n somebody who has a chr oni c case l i ke

24 t he one wi t h Ms. Cont i .

25 Q. I s t hi s r ec or d t he f i r s t s ugges t i on i n any of


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1 Ms. Cont i ' s medi cal r ecor ds about a poss i bl e

2 pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der t hat exi s t ed pr i or t o

3 your eval uat i on of her ?

4 A. I t i s t he f i r s t one, Mr . Si mons , t hat I have

5 s een. You know, we don' t al ways have ever y medi cal

6 r ecor d.

7 I t hi nk t her e i s one mor e poi nt I woul d l i ke

8 t o make of f of i t , as I put on my gl asses her e, I can

9 r eal l y s ee bet t er - - and t hi s doc t or al s o s aw, and i t

10 s ays - - i t ment i oned how t he dr ugs c an be used t o numb11 t he exper i ences.

12 So Ms. Cont i ' s use of subst ances coul d have

13 been used t o numb her sympt oms of post - t r aumat i c s t r ess

14 di s or der . And t he doc t or v er y ni c el y s ai d t hat i t i s

15 best t o have a pr oper di agnosi s and t r eat ment pl an.

16 So I t hi nk what t he doct or was t r y i ng t o do

17 was r edi r ect her e and set her on a pr oper cour se. Of

18 cour se, she i s a ver y young gi r l when she comes i n f or

19 t hi s .

20 Thank you.

21 Q. Now, wi t h r egar d t o t he chr oni c par t of PTSD,

22 does PTSD t hat has exi st ed i n a chr oni c st at e of mor e

23 t han s i x mont hs have mor e di f f i cul t y bei ng subj ec t ed t o

24 t r eat ment t han ot her f or ms of PTSD t hat may be acut er or

25 of s hor t er dur at i on?


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1 A. That ' s cor r ec t , Mr . Si mons .

2 Ther e i s a coupl e of t hi ngs we l ook at . What

3 makes a case r equi r e l onger per i ods of t r eat ment ? One

4 i s t he chr oni c i t y, r eal l y how l ong i t has been t her e.

5 The ot her ar e what we wi l l cal l " co- mor bi d

6 di agnoses , " t he ot her pr obl ems t hat go al ong wi t h i t .

7 I n Ms . Cont i ' s case , t he depr ess i on t hat goes

8 al ong wi t h i t makes i t har der t o t r eat , and t he hi s t or y

9 of subst ances makes i t har der t o t r eat t oo.

10 So t hose t hi ngs r eal l y mean t hat you have t o11 s pend mor e t i me, you have t o have a much mor e of a

12 t al k i ng r el at i onshi p wi t h t he young per son.

13 For exampl e, af t er t he San Br uno f i r e , we

14 wor ked i n sever a l of t he school s i n t he San Br uno ar ea

15 t o t ar get pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der i n t he f i r s t

16 f our weeks af t er t he f i r e. And we had some success wi t h

17 t h a t .

18 But t hat ' s ver y ear l y i nt er vent i on, you know.

19 And i f you have a s i t uat i on t hat i s ex i s t i ng much

20 l onger , i t i s r eal l y much har der t o wor k wi t h.

21 Q. You ment i oned t he dr ug use.

22 F i r s t of al l , you ar e awar e of Candace

23 Cont i ' s sust ai ned hi s t or y of subst ance abuse?

24 A. I am. I don' t know how much of t hat we ar e

25 t o t al k about . I want t o f ol l ow al l t he r ul es her e, Mr .


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1 Si mons , t hough.

2 Q. Do you have an opi ni on as t o whet her or not

3 her year s of subst ance abuse ar e caused i n subst ant i al

4 por t i on f r om t he sexual abuse she exper i enced as a

5 chi l d?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. What i s your opi ni on?

8 A. As Dr . Af r uma s ai d her e, I t hi nk i t i s ver y

9 l i kel y t hat Candace was usi ng t hese dr ugs t o numb her

10 s ympt oms . I t hi nk s he had ver y s t r ong s ympt oms of 11 pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der . And I t hi nk t hos e

12 dr ugs - - many of t he dr ugs t hat peopl e se l l on t he

13 st r eet ar e ant i depr essant s . You know, t hey ar e not what

14 we buy or use and t hey ar e not what we wi s h f or peopl e

15 because t hey ar e badl y made and have l ot s of si de

16 ef f ec t s , and t hey r ui n peopl e' s l i ves . But t hey ar e

17 ant i depr essant s .

18 Q. Now, do you have f ami l i ar i t y wi t h t he var i ous

19 s t udi es a nd st at i s t i c al i nf or mat i on conc er ni ng genet i c

20 f act or s i n subst ance abuse?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And based on your i nf or mat i on wor ki ng on t hi s

23 case and your pr of essi onal knowl edge, do you have an

24 opi ni on as t o whet her or not i t woul d be mor e l i kel y

25 t han not t hat Candace Cont i woul d have been i n sust ai ned


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1 subst ance abuse absent t he chi l d sex abuse?

2 A. I don' t know how I can say t hi s and st ay

3 wi t hi n t he r ul es , but I wi l l t r y.

4 I bel i eve s he s uf f er ed ver y s i gni f i c ant

5 sexual abuse at an ear l y age. Ni ne i s ver y ear l y . You

6 know, i t i s not j us t f ondl i ng. I don' t k now i f t he

7 det ai l s of t he di sc l osur es have been gi ven. And i t went

8 on f or a s i gni f i cant per i od of t i me, and t her e wer e

9 mul t i pl e epi sodes . So al l of t hat makes i t ver y

10 s i gni f i cant .11 Wi t h r espect t o your quest i on about genet i cs

12 and subst ance abuse, i f a f ami l y member was usi ng

13 subst ances and, you know, genet i cal l y car r i ed t hat

14 pr edi sposi t i on, you know, how woul d t hat af f ect

15 Ms. Cont i ?

16 Ther e ar e s t udi es t hat i ndi cat e t hat t her e

17 ar e hi gher r at es i n chi l dr en of subst ance abuser s t hat

18 ar e goi ng t o use subst ances t oo.

19 But t her e ar e - - al s o, t he vas t maj or i t y of

20 chi l dr en of subst ance abuser s do not use subst ances.

21 You know, and many of us know t hi s , becaus e we have

22 par ent s who mi ght dr i nk, and we i nst ead deci de we ar e

23 never goi ng t o do t hat and we ar e goi ng t o st ay away

24 f r om i t , and, you know, t hi ngs l i ke t hat .

25 So I t hi nk t hat i s t he maj or i t y of peopl e.


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1 So j ust because your par ent s had a genet i c pr opensi t y ,

2 you know, t o use and car r y t hat genet i c l oadi ng, doesn' t

3 mean t hat you ar e necess ar i l y goi ng t o become a user .

4 Q. Di d you do a t r auma ass ess ment of Candace

5 Cont i ?

6 A. I di d. I wi l l l ook f or t hat r i ght her e.

7 Q. And whi l e you ar e l ooki ng, can you t e l l us

8 what a t r auma ass ess ment i s ?

9 A. We ar e t r y i ng - - much i n t he l ast f ew year s,

10 we have t r i ed t o nor mal i ze t he t est i ng t hat we ar e11 doi ng. And we ar e espec i al l y t r y i ng t o do i t wi t h t he

12 bi g cases , so we can get val i di t y on our t es t i ng

13 mechani sms f or post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der . So t hi s

14 i s t he pos t - t r aumat i c st r es s chec kl i s t , t he

15 c i v i l i an var i ant . And i n t er ms of her s ympt oms, you

16 know, I wi l l go t hr ough t hem so t hat you have some i dea

17 about t hem.

18 She has r epeat ed di st ur bi ng memor i es, as I

19 ment i oned t he dr eam of The Pi t and Pendul um, you know,

20 and bei ng hel d down. That i s one of t he most di st ur bi ng

21 t hi ngs f or her . She has a l ot o f t r i gger i ng wi t h

22 phys i cal r eac t i ons , whi ch i s hear t poundi ng, t r oubl e

23 br eat hi ng or sweat i ng.

24 You know, one of t he ways you can f i nd out i f

25 somebody has had t r auma i s i f t hey ar e t aken i n f or


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1 pani c at t acks t o t he emer gency r oom, you have a f ami l y

2 member at home t hat has had an exper i ence l i ke t hat ,

3 of t en t hat i s l i nked i nt o t hat . So t hat i s a key, I

4 t hi nk , t o keep i n mi nd.

5 And she had a l ot of physi cal sympt oms t hat

6 wer e r epor t ed t o var i ous docs.

7 Then l oss of i nt er es t i n t hi ngs t hat she used

8 t o enj oy i s ver y , ver y i mpor t ant .

9 What i s a l so not ewor t hy about adol escent s i n

10 t hi s , i n pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s , i s t hey f eel as i f t hei r11 l i f e i s goi ng t o be cut shor t i f t hey have exper i enced a

12 t r aumat i c event . And she has t hat f eel i ng t hat she wi l l

13 di e young. J ust because she exper i enced somet hi ng so

14 bad so ear l y , she i s conv i nced t hat t hi s i s goi ng t o

15 happen t o her .

16 That , wi t h adol escent s and chi l dr en who have

17 had t r auma, i s i nc r edi bl y c har ac t e r i s t i c of i t . So t hat

18 i s a maj or pr obl em.

19 Then ot her t hi ngs , she i s super al er t and she

20 f eel s j umpy.

21 So t hose ar e t he t hi ngs t hat showed up on

22 t hi s scor i ng mechani sm.

23 Q. Over t he t i me t hat you have s een Candace

24 Cont i , have you seen s i gni f i cant i mpr ovement i n her

25 over al l c ondi t i on?


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1 And f i r s t of al l , l et me s t ar t out , you ar e

2 awar e she' s been i n t r eat ment ?

3 A. I am awar e of t hat , Mr . Si mons . I s t r ongl y

4 suppor t ed t hat .

5 Q. And have you seen i mpr ovement f r om t he f i r st

6 t i me you saw her t o t he l ast t i me you saw her ?

7 A. Ver y much so.

8 Q. And i s t hat i mpr ovement a s i gni f i cant

9 f i ndi ng?

10 A. Yes . Bec aus e i t r eal l y i ndi c at es - - I t hi nk11 when t he abuse i s di sc l osed and a per son i s abl e t o t al k

12 about i t and r eal l y f i gur e out how i t made t hem f eel and

13 r es pond as a c hi l d, i t i s ver y hel pf ul .

14 And knowi ng t hat she has r esponded so wel l ,

15 now t hat t he abuse st or y has come out , i s r eal l y ver y

16 i mpor t ant i n t hi s case.

17 Q. What i s your pr ognosi s f or her ?

18 A. Wi t h t r eat ment - - and she wi l l r equi r e a l ot

19 of t r eat ment - - I bel i eve she has a f ai r t o good

20 pr ognos i s .

21 They say you never r eal l y r ecover f r om

22 chr oni c sever e post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der . Meani ng

23 t hat i f a t r aumat i c event happens l at er i n your l i f e, i t

24 r e- t r i gger s i t .

25 But you get wonder f ul copi ng s t r at egi es f r om


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1 t her apy, and r eal l y t he s ens e t hat your r es i l i enc y i s

2 i ncr eased and you can mast er t hi s.

3 As I sai d i n my r epor t , I am r ecommendi ng t wo

4 year s of i nt ens i ve, t hr ee t i mes per week, t her apy f or

5 her and f ol l owed by s i x year s o f i ndi v i dual t r eat ment of

6 one t i me per week.

7 I t hi nk t he t ot al amount , f i nanc i al l y, was

8 about $160, 000 f or t hat i n t oday' s wor l d i n money.

9 Q. Do you have an opi ni on as t o whet her or not

10 Candace Cont i exhi bi t s o r suf f er s f r om any ot her11 ps yc hi at r i c i l l nes s or di agnos i s of s i gni f i c anc e t hat

12 woul d af f ect any of t he mat t er s we have t al ked about so

13 f ar i n your opi ni ons ?

14 A. Yes. I a l r eady ment i oned t he depr ess i on.

15 And she meet s - - s he was di agnosed as depr ess ed her e by

16 Dr . Af r uma year s bef or e.

17 The t ype of depr ess i on t hat I di agnosed her

18 wi t h i s dyst hymi a. And t hat i s a depr essed mood t hat i s

19 r eal l y ongoi ng, chr oni c and over a per i od of t i me. I t

20 cont r ast s wi t h maj or depr ess i ve di sor der , whi ch you have

21 pr obabl y hear d about .

22 Bot h need t r eat ment . Dyst hymi a i s mor e

23 common when somebody has had depr es s i on. They may have

24 had a maj or depr ess i ve di sor der , as she di d, pr obabl y at

25 t he t i me of t he abuse and f el t l i ke har mi ng her sel f , di d


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1 some sel f - mut i l at i on and cut t i ng, whi ch i s ver y

2 char act er i s t i c of young gi r l s who have been sexual l y

3 abused. But t hen i t evol ves i nt o a chr oni c depr essed

4 s t at e, whi c h i s what t hi s di d.

5 I n addi t i on, as you know, Mr . Si mons, t he

6 subst ance abuse di sor der s ar e psychi at r i c di agnoses t oo.

7 Q. What about par anoi a or ot her s i mi l ar t ypes of

8 di agnoses? Does she have any evi dence t hat she exhi bi t s

9 i n her r ecor ds o r i n your i nt er vi ews wi t h her of t hose

10 t ypes of di agnoses?11 A. I t i s i mpor t ant t o s ay, I t hi nk, what

12 par anoi a i s .

13 She does not , f i r s t of al l , and her t hi nki ng

14 i s ver y c l ear . I am ver y i mpr es s ed wi t h her abi l i t y t o

15 r ead, use her mi nd, use t her apy. That i s r eal l y comi ng

16 t o l i ght . And I wi s h her wel l i n her c ar eer wi t h

17 ani mal s. Ani mal s need t r eat ment t oo. They ar e not my

18 f avor i t e. I ' m not an ani mal per s on. But t hey r eal l y

19 need hel p and she l oves t hem.

20 And so I t hi nk t hat t hat ' s ver y i mpor t ant .

21 So she has got a pat h of pur sui t , and i s r eal l y i nt ent

22 upon t hat . And t hat i s r eal l y ver y i mpor t ant .

23 MR. SI MONS: Thank you.

24 I have no f ur t her quest i ons .

25


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1 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON

2 BY MR. SCHNACK:

3 Q. You t est i f i ed t hat Candace exper i enced what

4 you cal l a l engt hy per i od of abuse; i s t hat cor r ec t ,

5 ma' am?

6 A. Yes . I f you coul d pl ease cal l me " doc t or . "

7 I know i t i s a l ot t o as k, but i t i s my t i t l e and

8 f unct i on her e and I wor ked har d f or i t .

9 Q. I ' m not s ur e t hat I di dn' t addr es s you as

10 doct or .11 A. You addr essed me as, " ma' am. " But t hat ' s

12 okay.

13 Q. Okay. Ther e i s no mal i ce i nt ended t her e.

14 A. Thank you ver y much. Thank you f or doi ng

15 t h a t .

16 THE COURT: Al l r i ght , Mr . Schnack.

17 MR. SCHNACK: Thank you, your Honor .

18 BY MR. SCHNACK:

19 Q. I n your r epor t , you wr ot e t hat Candace t o l d

20 you t hat she had been abused, quot e, mor e t han t wi ce per

21 mont h, and of t en i t happened f our t o s i x t i mes per

22 mont h, c l ose quot e, by Mr . Kendr i ck.

23 Do you r ecal l t hat ?

24 A. Yes. I have got my r epor t her e, and I knew

25 you wer e goi ng t o quest i on me on t hat .


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1 Q. Ma' am - - I ' m s or r y, Doct or , i f you coul d j us t

2 answer t he quest i ons wi t hout t he s i del i nes , I woul d

3 appr ec i at e t hat .

4 A. Okay. Can you pl ease r epeat t hat ?

5 Q. Cer t ai nl y.

6 Do you r ecal l wr i t i ng i n your r epor t t hat

7 Candace r epor t ed t o you t hat f or t hr ee year s s he had

8 been abused, quot e, mor e t han t wi ce per mont h and of t en

9 t hey happened si x t i mes per mont h, c l ose quot e, by

10 J onat han Kendr i ck?11 A. I have i t her e. I don' t r ecal l wr i t i ng i t ,

12 but i t i s i n f r ont of me and I wr ot e i t .

13 Q. And t hen f ur t her down i n t hat same par agr aph,

14 you, quot e, i n summar y, Candace' s sequence of abuse by

15 J onat han t ook pl ac e over t hr ee year s and i nvol ved

16 hundr eds of epi sodes of sexual abuse, c l ose quot e.

17 Di d I r ead t hat c or r ec t l y?

18 A. Yes . Thi s i s i n my par t of t he r epor t ,

19 descr i pt i on of t he event s as r epor t ed by Candace Cont i .

20 So i t was what she t ol d me dur i ng t hat f i r st

21 i nt er vi ew.

22 Q. And - - okay. Let ' s t ur n now t o your

23 deposi t i on. You char ged $800 an hour f or t hat

24 depos i t i on; i s t hat c or r ec t ?

25 A. The r at es ar e set by t he Uni ver s i t y of


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1 Cal i f or ni a, whi ch I am a f acul t y member o f . And t hen

2 t hey go i nt o my uni ver si t y compensat i on pl an whi ch pays

3 f or my s t af f .

4 Q. I s t hat a yes or a no?

5 A. I di d char ge t hat . They char ged t hat , yes .

6 Q. And how much ar e you char gi ng Mr . Si mons f or

7 appear i ng her e t oday?

8 A. I t hi nk t he r at e mi ght be $900 f or cour t

9 t est i mony.

10 Q. And i s i t f a i r t o say you have char ged 25 or11 $30, 000 or mor e f or t he eval uat i on of t hi s case?

12 A. Not at al l . I t hi nk you s aw t he bi l l i ng.

13 And I wi l l get i t f or you, and I c an t el l you.

14 Q. How many hour s have you put i nt o i t ?

15 A. I wi l l f i nd i t . I want t o make s ur e.

16 I t hi nk , i f you r emember f r om my depos i t i on,

17 t hat t he bi l l i ng was r emar k abl y l ow i n t hi s c as e, par t l y

18 bec aus e I ' m ver y - - I ' m a s peed r eader , and i t i s

19 r el at i vel y qui c k. So l et me l ook at t hi s .

20 And I t hi nk - -

21 Q. Wi t h al l due r espect , we di dn' t di scuss your

22 bi l l i ngs i n your depos i t i on.

23 But go ahead and r espond.

24 A. I br ought t hem t her e f or di scuss i on and was

25 not asked about t hem.


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1 But I t hi nk, appr oxi mat el y, t he t ot al

2 bi l l i ngs her e ar e wel l under $8, 000. And t hat ' s up

3 unt i l t he t i me of t he depos i t i on. I woul d guess t hat

4 s i nce t hat t i me, pr obabl y , you know, i n pr epar at i on, you

5 depo- ed me i n one hour , s o t hat was $800.

6 I pr obabl y - -

7 Q. But I pai d t hat . Cor r ec t ?

8 A. Yes. But I got t hat money. So you di d pay

9 me.

10 Thank you f or doi ng t hat . I put i t i n my11 comp pl an.

12 But I t hi nk pr obabl y t he t ot al on t hi s i s

13 much cl oser t o t wel ve t o $15, 000 f or bei ng mor e t han a

14 year at wor k on t he case.

15 MR. SCHNACK: Okay. No f ur t her quest i ons .

16 THE COURT: Mr . McCabe?

17 MR. SI MONS: No, t hank you, your Honor .

18 THE COURT: Mr . Si mons?

19 MR. SI MONS: Yes. I have one quest i on.

20

21 REDI RECT EXAMI NATI ON

22 BY MR. SI MONS:

23 Q. Doct or , di d I under st and you cor r ec t l y t hat

24 t he money t hat you char ge and r ecei ve act ual l y goes

25 t hr ough t he Regent s and i nt o your depar t ment , and not t o


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1 you per sonal l y?

2 A. Ri ght . I t goes i nt o a s har ed uni ver s i t y

3 compensat i on pl an and pays f or a per cent age of our

4 sal ar y and i s used - - I have t wo ass i s t ant s . And

5 es pec i al l y, s i nc e I ' m s wi t c hi ng t o t he Apex, we al l have

6 t o t r a i n, and t hey hel p me a l ot . They ar e younger .

7 Q. So t hat does not go t o you per sonal l y?

8 A. Does not go t o me per sonal l y, no.

9 MR. SI MONS: That ' s al l I have.

10 MR. SCHNACK: Not hi ng f ur t her .11 THE COURT: Doct or , t hank you ver y much f or

12 your t i me. You ar e now excused.

13 ( Wher eupon, t he f ol l owi ng pr oceedi ngs

14 wer e hear d out s i de t he pr esence of j ur or s)

15 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . P l ease have a seat .

16 The j ur y i s out s i de of t he cour t r oom.

17 MR. SCHNACK: Yes , your Honor . We want ed t o

18 move f or a di r ect ed ver di ct on t he puni t i ve damages

19 c l ai ms , t he l as t cause of ac t i on al l eged i n The

20 Wat cht ower Bi bl e and Tr ac t Soc i et y ' s Compl ai nt , t her e i s

21 no evi dence of mal i ce of pr essur e and t hought , or much

22 l ess c l ear and convi nc i ng evi dence of t hat , and we ask

23 t hat t hat be s t r i c ken f r om t he c as e at t hi s poi nt .

24 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Mot i on f or Di r ec t ed

25 Ver di c t not ed as t o i t s t i mel i ness and c i r cumst ance.


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1 I wi l l r eser ve i t unt i l t omor r ow f or ar gument

2 and i n br i ef i ng and what anybody want s t o do. Because I

3 expect we wi l l conc l ude f ai r l y ear l y t omor r ow. And I

4 wi l l dec i de t he mot i on at t hat t i me, af t er due

5 cons i der at i on of any t hi ng f ur t her and al l ev i dence.

6 Al l r i ght . Let ' s t ake a br eak unt i l t went y

7 t o 10 and we cont i nue t o go f or war d.

8 ( Br eak t aken)

9 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Mr . McCabe, your

10 f i r s t wi t nes s.11 MR. McCABE: Def ense woul d cal l Ms. Ber ni ce

12 Munoz t o t he st and, your Honor .

13 THE COURT: Wel come, Ms . Munoz .

14 P l ease st and and r ai se your r i ght hand.

15

16 BERNI CE MUNOZ

17 WAS DULY SWORN TO TEL L THE TRUTH BY THE CLERK

18 AND TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS:

19

20 THE CLERK: Woul d you pl ease s t at e your name

21 and spel l your f i r s t and l as t name f or t he recor d.

22 THE WI TNESS: Ber ni ce Munoz, B- E- R- N- I - C- E,

23 and l ast name Munoz i s M- U- N- O- Z.

24 THE COURT: Woul d you pl ease move t he chai r

25 f or war d so t hat you ar e mor e comf or t abl e, a l i t t l e mor e


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1 f or war d. And t hen i s t hat comf or t abl e f or you?

2 THE WI TNESS: I t hi nk so.

3 THE COURT: Okay.

4

5 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON

6 BY MR. McCABE:

7 Q. Coul d you t e l l us wher e you l i ve?

8 A. F r e mont , Cal i f or ni a.

9 Q. And ar e you mar r i ed?

10 A. Yes, I am.11 Q. What i s your hus band' s name?

12 A. Dani el Munoz.

13 Q. How many chi l dr en do you have?

14 A. Four sons.

15 Q. Do you have any gr andchi l dr en?

16 A. Yes , I do.

17 Q. How many?

18 A. Twel ve.

19 Q. Wow, congr at ul at i ons.

20 Do you have gr eat gr andchi l dr en?

21 A. El even.

22 Q. Okay. And ar e you one of J ehovah' s

23 Wi t nesses?

24 A. Yes, I am.

25 Q. When di d you become bapt i zed as one of


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1 J ehovah' s Wi t nes ses?

2 A. I n J une of 1987.

3 Q. And wer e you ass oci at ed at t he t i me of your

4 bapt i sm wi t h t he Nor t h Fr emont Congr egat i on of J ehovah' s

5 Wi t nesses?

6 A. Yes , I was .

7 Q. Ar e you s t i l l as s oc i at ed wi t h t hat

8 congr egat i on?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Di d you at t end meet i ngs at t hat congr egat i on11 i n 1993 t hr ough 1997?

12 A. Yes , I di d.

13 Q. I ' m goi ng t o show you what has been

14 pr evi ousl y mar ked as Def ense Exhi bi t Number 132, and ask

15 you i f you r ecogni ze t hi s phot ogr aph.

16 Do you r ecogni ze t hat ?

17 A. Yes , I do.

18 Q. Can you see i t wel l enough?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What i s t hi s?

21 A. I t i s t he ent r yway of t he Ki ngdom Hal l of

22 J ehovah' s Wi t nes ses .

23 Q. Okay. I s t hat t he Ki ngdom Hal l t hat you

24 at t end, t he ent r yway?

25 A. Yes.


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1 Q. The next s l i de.

2 Do you r ecogni ze t hi s one?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What i s i t ?

5 A. I t i s t he bac k s i de of t he Ki ngdom Hal l .

6 Q. Okay. I t l ooks l i ke t her e i s doubl e door

7 t her e.

8 I s t hat what you see?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And i s t hat t he ent r yway t o t he Ki ngdom Hal l ?11 A. Yes , i t i s .

12 Q. And i s t hat wher e most f ol ks come i nt o t he

13 meet i ng and ent er i n t hr ough t hat door ?

14 A. Yes, uh- huh.

15 Q. And do t hey al so exi t out t hat door ?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. The next phot ogr aph I woul d l i ke t o

18 show you i s anot her pi c t ur e.

19 Do you r ecogni ze any of t he peopl e i n t hat

20 pi c t ur e?

21 A. Yes , I do.

22 Q. Okay. Do you r ecogni ze t he i nt er i or , what

23 t hat r oom i s ?

24 A. Yes , i t i s t he Ki ngdom Hal l .

25 Q. Okay. And t hi s l ook s l i ke an audi t or i um wi t h


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1 a - - l ooks l i ke an ai s l e goi ng down her e.

2 I s t her e one or mor e ai s l es separ at i ng t hat

3 ar e t hese seat s?

4 A. Ther e i s t wo ai s l es .

5 Q. Okay. So one down t hi s si de?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And t hen one down t he ot her s i de wher e t he

8 mai n gr oup of peopl e ar e pi ct ur ed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know how many s eat s ar e on each s i de11 of t he ai s l es ?

12 A. Maybe 25.

13 Q. On t he s i des or i n t he mi ddl e?

14 A. On t he s i de ai s l es?

15 Q. Yes , on t he s i des .

16 A. Maybe l i ke ar ound 30.

17 Q. Okay. How many peopl e can be s eat ed i n t hi s

18 audi t or i um, i f you know?

19 A. Somet i mes maybe over 200.

20 Q. Okay. For a nor mal meet i ng cur r ent l y, what

21 i s your at t endance l i ke?

22 A. Maybe about a 180.

23 Q. How about back i n t he 1990s? ' 94, ' 95, ' 96?

24 A. I t was pr et t y much t he same.

25 Q. Okay. I t ' s a mi x of adul t s , c hi l dr en,


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1 younger , ol der peopl e, f ami l i es?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you r emember back i n t he mi d- 1990s a

4 f ami l y i n t he congr egat i on known as t he Cont i f ami l y?

5 A. Yes , I do.

6 Q. Do you r emember who made up t hat f ami l y?

7 A. The f at her , t he mot her and a c hi l d. A l i t t l e

8 gi r l .

9 Q. Do you r emember what t he l i t t l e gi r l ' s name

10 was ?11 A. I bel i eve i t was Candace.

12 Q. Okay. Do you r emember what s he l ooked l i ke?

13 A. Yeah. She was whi t e and she had r eddi sh

14 br own hai r .

15 Q. Do you r emember what t he f at her and mot her ' s

16 names wer e?

17 A. I ' m s or r y .

18 Q. Fat her and mot her ' s name, do you r emember

19 what t hey wer e?

20 A. Neal Cont i and t he mot her , I bel i eve, was

21 Kat hy Cont i .

22 �

Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower

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Transcript of Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower