United States v. Bin Laden - Day 6 Transcript

7/27/2019 United States v. Bin Laden - Day 6 Transcript

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15 February 2001

Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-

0300.

This is the transcript of Day 6 of the trial.

See other transcripts:http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

2 ------------------------------x

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

4 v. S(7)98CR1023

5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

6 Defendants.

7 ------------------------------x

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New York, N.Y.

9 February 15, 2001

9:45 a.m.

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12 Before:

13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

14 District Judge

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687

1 APPEARANCES

2 MARY JO WHITE

United States Attorney for the

3 Southern District of New York

BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD

4 DAVID KELLEYKENNETH KARAS

5 PAUL BUTLER

Assistant United States Attorneys

6

7 SAM A. SCHMIDT

JOSHUA DRATEL

8 KRISTIAN K. LARSEN

Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

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ANTHONY L. RICCO

10 EDWARD D. WILFORD

CARL J. HERMAN

11 SANDRA A. BABCOCK

Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh

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FREDRICK H. COHN

13 DAVID P. BAUGH

LAURA GASIOROWSKI

14 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

15 DAVID STERN

DAVID RUHNKE

16 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

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18 (In open court; jury not present)

19 THE COURT: Good morning. Please be seated. We have

20 a number of matters I'd like to cover. It's not the first

21 item in terms of the agenda, but so I don't forget, so that

22 there is no confusion with respect to the cross-examination of


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23 Al Fadl, and I do this because there was a request on behalf

24 of counsel for El Hage for another conference to deal with

25 that, I just want to make sure that there is an understanding

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1 what the ground rules are. I'm aware that some of this

2 relates to some classified material and we're in open court.

3 The cross-examination of the witness with respect to

4 such matters as his understanding of the Koran, of the terms

5 of the bayat and so on, is to be conducted by asking him

6 direct questions without references to any documents not in

7 evidence. If in the opinion of counsel the answer given

8 requires resorting to any documents, including the specially

9 prepared documents which was the subject of our robing room

10 conferences --

11 MR. BAUGH: Excuse me. Your Honor, I don't mean to

12 interrupt. I don't believe there are any Swahili interpreters

13 in the middle group.

14 THE COURT: Excuse me?

15 MR. BAUGH: I don't believe there are any Swahili

16 interpreters in the middle group.

17 (Pause)

18 THE COURT: A sidebar is to be requested. Let me say

19 that I will be very surprised should that occasion arise where

20 you have had the example of two cross-examinations of the

21 witness, including inquiry into those matters and there seemed

22 to be no problem in eliciting the witness' responses. Should


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23 that arise, there is to be request for a conference. I will

24 reluctantly, but if necessary, grant that conference.

25 At that conference we will deal with a number of

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1 matters. One, whether there is indeed need for a reference to

2 the document in question. Two, whether the government will

3 take the position that the nature of that inquiry will open

4 the door on the concept of completeness for the government to

5 make reference to other portions of those documents; and

6 three, an opportunity of co-counsel to object as they have

7 indicated in the past they would.

8 That is the protocol which we will follow, if

9 necessary. I say I will be surprised if it is necessary. Is

10 there any question as to the procedure with respect to that

11 matter?

12 MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor, but what we were

13 intending to do, your Honor, is to give you a letter, probably

14 tomorrow, just highlighting what we think if that comes up,

15 just to highlight for the Court what might be.

16 THE COURT: I have a letter request on behalf for an

17 order for a curative instruction with respect to the reading

18 of exhibit 1600T. My understanding of 1600T is that is an

19 exhortation by Bin Laden to his audience to engage in

20 anti-American terrorist activity, and that as evidence of that

21 he cites the vulnerability of the United States as evidenced

22 by, among other things, Somalia. Page 35: Appear before the

23 world promising to retaliate but his promises were only


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24 preliminary things for withdrawals. God humiliated you and

25 you left, and this had seriously shown that you're incompetent

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1 and weak.

2 In other words, my understanding of the context of

3 this is a reference by Bin Laden to the victories, the

4 successes achieved as a result of other terrorist acts. He

5 doesn't claim responsibility for these acts, but he cites them

6 as examples of the sort of activity which has achieved

7 success, success being a humiliation and withdrawal by the

8 Americans.

9 Does anybody quarrel with that as a fair

10 characterization of what Bin Laden is doing in those portions

11 of this document?

12 All right. Silence then is acquiescence. In light

13 of that, Mr. Wilford, what is it that you would have me tell

14 this jury?

15 MR. WILFORD: That these statements contained in

16 1600TT are reflective of Bin Laden's state of mind and they

17 are not reflective of the state of mind of Mr. Odeh.

18 THE COURT: Mr. Bin Laden is not an individual. He's

19 not -- he is, you know, we talk about the pyramid and he's the

20 top of the pyramid, right? This is in 1996.

21 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, the statements that he's

22 making at that time are reflective of his state of mind. What

23 the jury ultimately gets to determine is whether or not Mr.


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24 Odeh or any of the other defendants agreed or accepted that,

25 and the statement that is made and the way that the government

691

1 suggested it, according to Mr. Karas yesterday, was that it

2 was coming in simply to show what Bin Laden's state of mind

3 was and what he hoped to have people believe.

4 THE COURT: You want me to say that exhibit 1600 is a

5 statement issued by Bin Laden distributed by people working

6 for him which constitutes the declaration of holy war against

7 the Americans. You want me to tell that to the jury? I have

8 no difficulty telling that to the jury. I don't imagine the

9 government would have any difficulty my telling that to the

10 jury.

11 MR. WILFORD: I request what is suggested in my

12 letter.

13 THE COURT: Not for the truth contained therein.

14 MR. WILFORD: Yes. Because the government's proffer

15 of this particular piece of evidence, your Honor, was that

16 it's being offered for the state of mind. I wouldn't want

17 jury to be confused and being misled as to what the document

18 is being offered for, and I don't want confusion to occur

19 later on in terms of argument of this particular document.

20 THE COURT: You go on to say -- I'm reading the last

21 paragraph -- therefore, Mr. Odeh requests that the jury be

22 instructed that Government Exhibit 1600 and 1600T were

23 admitted not for the truth contained therein, but rather to

24 establish what Bin Laden's state of mind was and the message


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25 he had for his followers at that time.

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1 MR. WILFORD: Message he had for his followers, not

2 that his followers accepted that message, but that's the

3 message he was putting forth.

4 THE COURT: How does that differ from any other

5 statement made by a coconspirator in furtherance of the

6 conspiracy?

7 MR. WILFORD: Well, there are instances where the

8 statement is more than, it's an agreement between the parties.

9 The statement can be offered as evidence of agreement between

10 the parties. This is not that sort of situation.

11 THE COURT: This is an instruction which he, this is

12 a fatwa which is a declaration of holy war. Exhibit 1600

13 constitutes a statement issued by Bin Laden reflecting his

14 views and the message he had for his followers. You want me

15 to say that?

16 MR. WILFORD: Yes.

17 THE COURT: Any objection to that?

18 MR. KARAS: One moment, your Honor.

19 (Pause)

20 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I would not want the part

21 about message he had to his followers. Also, with respect,

22 it's our position, but, also, if I could just go back to

23 Somalia for a second, because just reading it again and while

24 the specific language in the fatwa does not take credit, if


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25 examined in the context of what the government is trying to

693

1 establish with respect to Somalia, it does have an impact on

2 Somalia.

3 If the government is going to put in, has put in

4 through Mr. Al Fadl already, and I anticipate that they will

5 try to put it in through other statements, not only by Bin

6 Laden but also by another alleged coconspirator is that al

7 Qaeda was responsible, so to put that with this it doesn't go

8 very far to determine the statement of responsibility, and

9 that's why it's a factor.

10 Your Honor, also, it can also have an impact to the

11 jury, that the other issues on Somalia in another context and

12 it has an impact on what our judgment of our needs are.

13 THE COURT: It's what he said, right? It's what he

14 told his followers. He said: Look how we humiliated

15 President Clinton and how they withdraw, and this is the sort

16 of thing you should do to achieve the glorious martyrdom that

17 he describes.

18 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, in terms of the actual, I

19 don't know if your Honor is saying that's the instruction or

20 the Somalia part of it now? If you're talking about

21 instruction, my objection to the part about the followers is

22 that it's a fatwa and whatever fatwa is, it is. I don't want

23 to be part of an instruction that it's a fatwa.

24 THE COURT: I really think that for the instruction

25 to be fair and accurate it will not show any interest of the


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694

1 defendants, because as you say in your letter, Mr. Wilford,

2 this is a message he had for his followers at the time. I

3 don't see any stretching, that would be a fair and accurate

4 appraisal of what this document is would be appropriate.

5 Mr. Cohn, what is your client's views on this matter?

6 MR. COHN: He takes no position.

7 THE COURT: You take no position.

8 MR. COHN: I join the application, your Honor.

9 THE COURT: The application for a curative

10 instruction?

11 MR. COHN: Yes.

12 THE COURT: A curative instruction which will say,

13 among other things, that this is the instruction, the fatwa,

14 the declaration of holy war issued by Bin Laden and

15 constitutes the message he had for his followers at that time.

16 You want that instruction.

17 MR. COHN: Not in those words, your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Those are the words of the request. I

19 have to say this. I do know that there is a very

20 understandable desire on the part of counsel from time to time

21 to get an adverse ruling from the Court for the sake of

22 getting an adverse ruling from the Court.

23 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, just so we're clear, I'm not

24 objecting to the instruction, but I think an instruction that

25 says this is the speaker's state of mind, it is not the state


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695

1 of mind of any of the defendants; it is not proof of their

2 state of mind; it is the speaker's state of mind. I think

3 that's consistent with an instruction with respect to any

4 coconspirator hearsay. The coconspirator hearsay is designed

5 to --

6 THE COURT: Are you under the impression that it's

7 appropriate for the Court after every introduction of a

8 coconspirator's statement in furtherance of the conspiracy to

9 give an instruction to the jury?

10 MR. DRATEL: No, but with something as important as

11 this document, with so much prejudicial information I think it

12 is appropriate in this content.

13 THE COURT: Mr. Wilford.

14 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, also, we agree with

15 Mr. Dratel's statement, not every time, but this particular

16 statement it would be important. If the Court is not inclined

17 to give any instruction, I simply ask that the letter that I

18 submit be made a Court Exhibit.

19 THE COURT: Sure. Court Exhibit 1 of today.

20 (Marked Court Exhibit 1 of 2/15/01)

21 THE COURT: One other matter with respect to the

22 opinions that were filed under seal on Monday, I'm sure our

23 friends in the media would appreciate it if they became

24 available early tomorrow morning so that if you could let us

25 know by 4:30 today, whether there is anything that has to be


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696

1 redacted.

2 MR. COHN: Your Honor wanted it in writing so we'll

3 have it for you by then. The changes we have are very minor.

4 MR. KARAS: Judge, just two things with respect to

5 the declaration of jihad. One is on page 35 at the very top

6 there is a word there spelled R-A-Y-E-H-R-I-C-S. As bad as my

7 pronunciation has been I don't think that's a word. I think

8 it's supposed to be media theatrics, not media racist. Page

9 35 at the very top.

10 THE COURT: Media theatrics you think that is. You

11 know there are a few other instances.

12 MR. KARAS: The other thing, your Honor, is when

13 there is a reference to PBUH I've been reliably informed that

14 stands for peace be upon him. That's how we will read it from

15 here on out.

16 THE COURT: Ask them to bring in the jury.

17 (Continued on next page)

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697

1 (Jury present)

2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. When

3 we adjourn today we are going to adjourn until Tuesday

4 morning. It's the last of our February long weekends. It's

5 been a while since I reminded you not to read or listen to

6 anything in the media, and this may be a good time for me to

7 remind you again that that is the standing instruction.

8 We are at the point where we are reading the

9 Government Exhibit 1600T, copies of which you should have, and

10 I believe we stopped yesterday at the bottom of page 16.

11 MR. KARAS: Yes, Judge.

12 (Government Exhibit 1600T read)

13 (Continued on next page)

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1 THE COURT: If you would just pass those forward,

2 they will be collected.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: There may be one logistical issue

4 for counsel before the next item, so I wonder if we might take

5 the break earlier.

6 THE COURT: Take a break now?

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge.

8 THE COURT: We'll take a five-minute recess.

9 (Jury not present)

10 THE COURT: What is the next proposal?

11 MR. FITZGERALD: If next proposal is we intended to

12 read the 1997 Grand Jury transcript of Wadia El Hage, but I

13 received a call just before I came to Court this morning from

14 Mr. Schmidt -- Mr. Karas received a call -- indicating that he

15 was going to propose some redactions to the Grand Jury

16 testimony and that's why I didn't want to stand up and go

17 there. We haven't received the redactions yet, I don't

18 believe.

19 MR. DRATEL: I'm going to call him. He was working

20 on it while we were here. This is something that just came up

21 yesterday for the first time. So I have -- I mean, I have

22 gone through it myself, but if I could just go downstairs and

23 call him.

24 THE COURT: We'll take a ten-minute recess.

25 MR. FITZGERALD: My sense from the discussion of the

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1 redactions from Mr. Schmidt, but not Mr. Dratel, is I don't

2 think we will be agreeing. So I just wanted to warn your

3 Honor. But we'll try, but I think there's a serious issue.

4 (Recess)

5 (In the robing room; present: Mr. Fitzgeral, Mr.

6 Karas, Mr. Dratel, Mr. Cohen, Mr. Ricco and Mr. Wilford)

7 THE COURT: A big surprise that this is arriving so

8 it's got to be decided two minutes while the jury is waiting.

9 MR. COHN: Do not look at us, your Honor. Call

10 Typhoid Mary.

11 THE COURT: What is the problem?

12 MR. DRATEL: We have some sections of the Grand Jury

13 testimony that we would like redacted.

14 THE COURT: On the theory that?

15 MR. DRATEL: 403, more prejudicial; there's very

16 little probative value, if any, and they are highly

17 prejudicial.

18 THE COURT: And bear no relationship to the perjury

19 counts in the indictment?

20 MR. DRATEL: They are not alleged as perjurious

21 statements in the indictment. I know that some of them --

22 there may be two that are referred to, one I think vaguely and

23 another more specifically in the indictment, and our position

24 is that it's just simply too prejudicial to -- but they're not

25 perjury counts in the indictment. What I'm saying is there

700


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1 are a couple I think that are referred to within the broader

2 contours of the conspiracy. The government knows better about

3 that.

4 THE COURT: Are they being offered against all of the

5 defendants or only against El Hage?

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Only against El Hage. As an

7 example, your Honor, one of the things --

8 THE COURT: Even if they are not subject, a subject

9 of a specific count, why would they not be admissible as

10 against him as admissions?

11 MR. DRATEL: Because they're not admissions. He says

12 no. A lot of answers are "no," so it's really the question

13 that's the issue.

14 THE COURT: Give me your best shot.

15 MR. DRATEL: Well, can we go through them. Most of

16 them don't have to do with things that are in the indictment,

17 so I would like to proceed that way. First, I'll read out the

18 section, the government will say whether they agree or not

19 agree, then we will know whether we have to argue.

20 The first one we've resolved, which is page 2 --

21 THE COURT: Just tell me things you haven't resolved.

22 MR. DRATEL: Just for the purpose of knowing what's

23 going to come in and not come in. We've resolved fewer, so

24 it's actually probably easier.

25 Page 2, line 23, through page 3, line 3, there is a

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1 question put to Mr. El Hage about John Draid, D-R-A-I-D. I

2 think the government's agreeing that --

3 THE COURT: Page 2?

4 MR. DRATEL: Bottom of page 2.

5 THE COURT: Oh, yes.

6 MR. DRATEL: Through the top of page 3, and I think

7 the government has agreed that it will stipulate that they're

8 not contending that Mr. El Hage ever used that alias.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: And I'll interrupt the reading by

10 the paralegals to state that at that point in time, if that's

11 easier.

12 THE COURT: Very well. Okay.

13 MR. DRATEL: Page 18, line 13 through 22.

14 THE COURT: Page 18, line 30 --

15 MR. DRATEL: 13 through 22. And that is a photo

16 presented to Mr. El Hage which he does not recognize, but he

17 says -- well, I'm sorry, he does recognize it. He says, "I

18 don't remember the name, but I have seen his picture in the

19 news. He is the one involved in the World Trade Center

20 bombing."

21 I think that's too prejudicial, since he does not

22 know the person other than through the media.

23 THE COURT: But then he continues, he goes through --

24 it's 13 to 22.

25 MR. DRATEL: Right, because the second question is --

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1 THE COURT: What is --


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2 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, I don't see what the

3 prejudice is. He looked at a picture --

4 THE COURT: What's the point? He doesn't remember

5 the name but he's seen his picture.

6 Granted, 13 through 22.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: The problem we're going to have,

8 Judge, since I just got these redactions now, is we've scanned

9 in the Grand Jury testimony so we could do it with the jury

10 and I just got the redactions now, so I don't know what we're

11 going to do about displaying this to the jury.

12 I don't see what the prejudice is to someone saying,

13 I saw a photograph of a guy on T.V. but I don't know him, and

14 we're not going to argue that he in fact knew him.

15 THE COURT: We'll just orally instruct the jury to

16 disregard it.

17 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor --

18 THE COURT: What do you want me to do?

19 MR. DRATEL: The fact that their technology can't

20 accommodate this should not be why we --

21 THE COURT: How many of these are there going to be?

22 Do you have copies of these for the jury?

23 MR. FITZGERALD: We were going to display it on the

24 screen page-by-page.

25 THE COURT: Don't display that page. Just read that

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1 page. I think the fact that the technology shouldn't override


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2 the substance is a good point.

3 Next.

4 MR. DRATEL: Page 19, line 11, through page 21, line

5 23.

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 MR. DRATEL: This is with respect to Mr. El Hage's --

8 the question of Mr. El Hage with respect to Sayyid Nosair.

9 This is one of the ones where there is a reference in the

10 indictment not specifically, but there is a reference.

11 The problem we have is just that the Nosair,

12 particularly New York, is so prejudicial because there was

13 involvement in the Kahane murder, and in fact the Kahane

14 murder is mentioned specifically at page 21, line 5.

15 THE COURT: Mr. Wilford is smiling because what he

16 would say if he weren't so deferential to co-counsel is your

17 assumption as to what will be immediately known to the jury is

18 not -- if he went in there and he asked who was Sayyid Nosair,

19 no one would know.

20 MR. COHN: That wasn't why Mr. Wilford was laughing.

21 He was thinking about lunch.

22 THE COURT: The jury is going to be taken to a fancy

23 restaurant. So that's to make up for the day they're being

24 subjected to.

25 Overruled.

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1 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can we at least take out 21,

2 line 2 through 21, line --


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4 MR. DRATEL: Yes, page 21, line 2, through page 21,

5 line 16?

6 THE COURT: Yes. How about that?

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge --

8 THE COURT: Yes, what is the probative value of his

9 knowing that Nosair is in jail?

10 MR. FITZGERALD: First all, we'll be offering proof

11 at this trial that he visited Nosair in jail, which he didn't

12 admit because he visited Nosair in jail with a man by the name

13 of Elnore, who he denies knowing one of the photographs of the

14 people he says he doesn't know.

15 THE COURT: That's different.

16 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, but that can be involved

17 with lines 1, 2 -- 2 through 4, rather. We don't need 5 and

18 beyond. Where is he now? He's in jail. That satisfies that.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: I think, Judge, what we're now doing

20 is stripping away the facts as to why Mr. El Hage might want

21 to lie.

22 THE COURT: No, overruled. Leave it in, subject to

23 the government's representation that there will be other proof

24 of his visiting him.

25 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he never lied, he never --

705

1 THE COURT: What's next?

2 MR. DRATEL: He did not ask whether he ever visited


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3 Nosair and says no, he never asked that question.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: He lied about knowing Elnore, who he

5 visited with, and he asked whether he saw him in New York and

6 he said in Brooklyn. He never mentioned traveling to Rikers

7 Island.

8 THE COURT: Next.

9 MR. DRATEL: The next is page 27, line 25 -- I'm

10 sorry, page 27, line 17 through 25. That's another reference

11 to Nosair as well as to Abouhalima, who is a convicted

12 defendant in the World Trade Center bombing. There are two

13 questions --

14 THE COURT: Overruled. Next.

15 MR. DRATEL: Page 30, line 18 through line 23,

16 there's a question that Mr. El Hage answers "no" which has to

17 do with someone who visited him in the Sudan whose name he

18 didn't remember, and the question is: "Did anyone indicate to

19 you that he was on the run from anyone who was looking for

20 him?

21 "A. No."

22 That would be what we would -- and the next

23 question --

24 THE COURT: Then he says --

25 MR. DRATEL: Yes, then the next question as well.

706

1 THE COURT: Then he says, "I thought he was sent by

2 the American Embassy to check on me probably." Was that with

3 respect to the same person?


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4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

5 MR. DRATEL: Yes. But wait, that's the next page,

6 but the part that we were looking at was before that.

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 MR. DRATEL: Which is, "Did anyone indicate to you

9 that he was on the run from anyone who was looking for him?"

10 Answer: "No." Next question: "Did anyone indicate he was

11 wanted by any authorities?" Answer: "No."

12 That's the portion that we think is more prejudicial

13 than probative, or there's no probative value.

14 THE COURT: Is the next series of questions with

15 respect to the same person?


17 THE COURT: Overruled.

18 MR. DRATEL: Next were page 37, line 5 --

19 THE COURT: How many are there of these?

20 MR. DRATEL: There are about five more.


22 MR. DRATEL: Line 5.

23 THE COURT: Yes.

24 MR. DRATEL: Through page 47, line 25. And that is a

25 whole discussion of Mr. El Hage's relationship with Abouhalima

707

1 who is a convicted defendant in the World Trade Center

2 bombing, has to do with Mr. El Hage's purchase of weapons from

3 Mr. Abouhalima that he never picked up.


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4 This is not charged as a perjury count. None of

5 these are charged as perjury counts. It's very prejudicial.

6 Interspersed within this is discussion of the fact that he's

7 in jail for the World Trade Center bombing and that there's

8 also a question about whether these weapons were for use at

9 the JDL, which Mr. El Hage denies knowing about, and so that's

10 why we would ask that this be deleted.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, among other things,

12 during this conversation where Mr. El Hage is asked about

13 Abouhalima, he first says, "I never had a special discussion

14 with Abouhalima. Then he's confronted with the fact that

15 Abouhalima called him to ship weapons to New York, and then he

16 admits to that. I think it goes to his pattern of showing he

17 can't answer the questions.


19 MR. DRATEL: Page 36, line 14 through page 36, line

20 22, which is purely:

21 "Do you know where Abouhalima is today?

22 "He is in jail.

23 "Do you know what he is in jail for?

24 "He is accused of the World Trade Center bombing.

25 "So he is in jail for the World Trade Center bombing?

708

1 "Yes."

2 I don't think there is any reason for that to be in,

3 your Honor, even under the government's theory.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: The government's theory is, knowing


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5 that what the person being investigated or being asked about

6 is involved for, he is accused of being involved in the World

7 Trade Center, it's truthful answers.

8 THE COURT: It makes it more -- the conclusion that

9 the answers are deliberately false is enhanced by the

10 notoriousness of the person about whom the questions have been

11 answered.



14 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can we get an instruction

15 that the World Trade Center was not part of this case,

16 something like that? You know, that this is not --

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, it already is not part of

18 this case. Already we've had --

19 Hold on.

20 We've had two things happen. In the opening,

21 Mr. Schmidt told the jury that the government --

22 THE COURT: Excuse me. Are the defendants praying

23 now?

24 MR. COHN: No, they're sitting outside waiting.

25 THE COURT: Why don't they pray now?

709

1 MR. COHN: Because nobody suggested it until your

2 Honor, in its wisdom.

3 THE COURT: Look, we'll be another five minutes?

4 MR. DRATEL: I think that we will be, yes, another


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5 five to ten minutes, I think, just to be --

6 THE COURT: Tell the marshals. Is it all right if I

7 tell the jury, since they are going to be read to again, that

8 the jury should understand that we have adjusted the schedule

9 somewhat to take care of Mr. Schmidt's indisposition?


11 MR. DRATEL: We're talking about the World Trade

12 Center. Obviously, without this, we don't need the

13 instruction, but because this is reference number three,

14 basically, to the World Trade Center now, with this and so --

15 THE COURT: So what would your instruction be?

16 MR. DRATEL: That the World Trade Center is not

17 charged in this conspiracy.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: But what it may be relevant to is

19 the perjury case as to whether or not he's telling the truth

20 about the World Trade Center.

21 MR. DRATEL: That's notice charged as part of this

22 conspiracy. No one is being charged with involvement in the

23 World Trade Center bombing.

24 MR. FITZGERALD: Can we also instruct the jury if El

25 Hage lied about people involved in that event, that's relevant

710

1 to the perjury counts?

2 MR. DRATEL: I don't think we need an instruction on

3 that. I think the government can argue that.

4 THE COURT: Suppose I said, apart from possible

5 relevance to the perjury counts against El Hage --


25/183

6 MR. DRATEL: I almost would rather have nothing than

7 that.

8 THE COURT: Yes.

9 MR. DRATEL: But just my question is, why does the --

10 the government's going to argue that no one can argue the

11 opposite. In other words, the government can argue that

12 because -- the government can argue that it is relevant and we

13 can't say -- I mean, what can we say in response other than

14 that he didn't perjure himself?

15 MR. FITZGERALD: We are not going to argue that he

16 blew up the World Trade Center. It's reciprocal.

17 MR. DRATEL: Well, but there is one inference, and

18 our inference is nowhere in front of the -- in other words,

19 it's sort of a one-sided inference.

20 THE COURT: I can't say it's irrelevant because it

21 clearly is relevant to the perjury charge.

22 MR. DRATEL: I didn't say irrelevant, that it's

23 irrelevant to say -- the Court has decided it's relevant.

24 THE COURT: You want to say that the bombing of the

25 World Trade Center is not --

711

1 MR. DRATEL: Charged in this case and no defendant

2 is --

3 THE COURT: Is not charged against any defendant in

4 this case?

5 MR. DRATEL: Right.


26/183

6 THE COURT: You have any problem with that?

7 MR. FITZGERALD: No.

8 THE COURT: I'll do that first time there is a

9 reference to the World Trade Center.

10 MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor.

11 Okay, the others, the JDL reference at 46, line 2 to

12 line 9 as part of the same piece.

13 THE COURT: Which page are we on now?

14 MR. DRATEL: 46, line 2.

15 THE COURT: Page 46, line 2.

16 MR. DRATEL: Through line 9.

17 THE COURT: "Did Abouhalima ever tell you that the

18 guns were to be used to fight against the Jewish Defense

19 League?

20 "No. He never said that."

21 From lines 1 to where?

22 MR. DRATEL: Through 9, the two questions, the two

23 answers.

24 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, again, the Grand Jury's

25 investigating what the guns were going to be used for in New

712

1 York. We had a good faith basis to ask that question. He

2 said no. That goes to materiality of what he is discussing

3 about these weapons, which he claims, first, he didn't mention

4 in response to Abouhalima; second, he claims he never shipped.

5 THE COURT: No, I sustain the objection to page 46,

6 lines 1 through 9, and we'll follow the same procedure --


27/183

7 don't flash that page on the screen.

8 MR. COHN: You want a report, Judge? They can pray

9 during lunch. We don't have to delay at all and it's fine.

10 Judge, don't ask me to be logical. I'm just merely

11 the messenger.

12 THE COURT: But there is a pattern developing about

13 how things are important only if the Court denies them.

14 MR. COHN: Judge --

15 THE COURT: Okay.

16 MR. COHN: Prayer is a floating time, depending on

17 the position of the sun.

18 THE COURT: But I have a calendar on my desk with an

19 explanation from the imam.

20 Let's go on.

21 MR. DRATEL: The next one we have agreed on, I think,

22 which is --

23 THE COURT: Fine.

24 MR. DRATEL: Can I say what the agreement is so we're

25 clear that the government will state during the course of the

713

1 deposition, page 56 through 61, which discusses the murder of

2 Mustafa Shalabi that there's no contention that Mr. El Hage

3 was involved in any way.

4 THE COURT: And the government will say that?


6 THE COURT: Very well. Okay.


28/183

7 MR. DRATEL: The next is a large section, page 72,

8 line 23, to page 90, line 15, which involves the murder of an

9 imam in Tucson by the name of Rashad Khalifa.

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 MR. DRATEL: And it's not charged in the perjury

12 count. The government's position is that it is relevant

13 because they are going to contend that the same person who

14 Mr. El Hage visited Nosair with is the same person who visited

15 Mr. El Hage in Tucson.

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 MR. DRATEL: Well prior to this murder. So the

18 question is really no connection between the murder and this

19 visit, other than what the government is going to try to draw

20 an inference without saying, because there have been people

21 who have been charged with this murder, with conspiring to

22 murder. They live in Colorado in their --

23 THE COURT: What is the relevance of the murder?

24 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, specifically, the Grand

25 Jury did charge that one of the material facts for the Grand

714

1 Jury to determine, and I'll read from the indictment at page

2 108, subsection 6: "The nature of the role, if any, played by

3 defendant Wadih El Hage in the murder of Rashed Khalifa in

4 Tucson, Arizona in 1990 and the identity of the person in from

5 New York who visited Wadih El Hage in Tucson prior to the

6 murder."

7 It's the government's contention that the person who


29/183

8 came from New York, who Mr. El Hage would lie about after

9 being shown this photograph and whom he would then visit

10 Nosair in jail with in 1991, was involved in the surveillance

11 prefatory to a murder, not necessarily the murder. Mr. El

12 Hage lied about it, explains why he lied about it. It goes

13 directly to materiality and was charged in the indictment.


15 MR. DRATEL: Okay. I just want to say I don't think

16 the government is going to have any proof that there's any

17 connection between this visit and the murder. It's just, I

18 think, an unfair inference that's totally prejudicial to

19 Mr. El Hage.

20 THE COURT: My ruling is made on the representation

21 of the government, and if there should be no -- well, but it's

22 what the Grand Jury was inquiring into which defines what was

23 material for purposes of their inquiry.

24 Overruled. Let's move on.

25 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, also within that I think we

715

1 have an agreement that there's part of page 85 that will go

2 out.

3 You don't agree?

4 MR. FITZGERALD: No.

5 MR. DRATEL: I thought you were agreeing.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: I wrote down I understood your

7 argument.


30/183

8 MR. DRATEL: Page 58, lines 22 to 24, which is really

9 just exchange between Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. El Hage.


11 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I think that's extremely

12 prejudicial. That has no relevance to anything.


14 MR. DRATEL: There's also within that section, page

15 81, line 15 -- I guess I missed this one. It has to do with

16 Mr. El Hage possessing a weapon in Texas and it has nothing to

17 do with that issue. It just is within that. It says, "Do you

18 have a gun?" "Yes, I have a shotgun."

19 THE COURT: A shotgun in Tucson. What is the

20 significance of that?

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, a lot of -- this is the first

22 time I'm hearing this one.

23 MR. DRATEL: I forgot to mention it. It's on the

24 same line. I'm sorry.

25 MR. FITZGERALD: He asked him if he had a gun in the

716

1 house, he had a shotgun. I don't --

2 THE COURT: Take it out. Take it out and don't

3 screen that page.

4 MR. DRATEL: Page 107, line 2 through 4.

5 THE COURT: Page 107,lines which?

6 MR. DRATEL: 2 through 4. That's again an issue as

7 to why a particular defendant is in jail. I don't know that

8 the government is even alleging that he's lying about this


31/183

9 person Azmarai, and the question is why that's relevant. Just

10 the fact that he's in jail and he's in jail for the World

11 Trade Center.

12 THE COURT: We're going to have the World Trade

13 Center stipulation that will cover.

14 MR. DRATEL: Then page 115, line 5.

15 THE COURT: 115?

16 MR. DRATEL: Line 5.

17 THE COURT: Line 5.

18 MR. DRATEL: Through 116, line 22.

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 MR. DRATEL: Which is a recap by Mr. Fitzgerald of a

21 variety of different situations that involve fatalities and

22 then try put Mr. El Hage connected with them, and it's really

23 like a summation, it's really argument, your Honor. It's a

24 series of questions about that, recap of earlier testimony,

25 and it's just -- it's unnecessary. It's all there already.

717

1 It's prejudicial, sort of summation.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, a couple of things.

3 First of all, it is telling the witness directly what he is

4 saying and giving him an opportunity to give a truthful

5 answer, which is he was asked if he ever thought he was being

6 part of a terrorist group, and he said no. Even at the end of

7 the Grand Jury testimony he's asked if there is a single

8 answer he wanted to change anywhere in his testimony, and I


32/183

9 think it's important when --

10 THE COURT: Yes, the objection is overruled. I'm

11 cutting you off because I think what you are about to say is

12 clear.

13 You are the questioner?

14 MR. FITZGERALD: That's been redacted.

15 THE COURT: That's been redacted. That will not be

16 disclosed to the jury.

17 MR. DRATEL: One additional one, page 120, line 26.

18 THE COURT: 120, line?

19 MR. DRATEL: 26, through 122, line 8.

20 THE COURT: To line 8, that he heard about -- what's

21 the significance of that?

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we had offered a

23 stipulation that no one in the case was charged with

24 participating in the Mubarak assassination.

25 MR. DRATEL: Okay. I guess I forgot.

718

1 THE COURT: Okay.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

3 THE COURT: All right.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: So we can do it at the same point in

5 time.

6 THE COURT: Is that it?

7 MR. DRATEL: That's it.

8 THE COURT: And I will tell the jury that the reason

9 why they're having a day of reading is because we're working


33/183

10 around Mr. Schmidt's unavailability. And this will take how

11 long?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Take the balance of the day.

13 THE COURT: The balance of the day.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: It's 183 pages. Sans redaction,

15 175.

16 MR. DRATEL: And if you granted more, it would be

17 shorter.

18 (In open court; jury present)

19 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, two things: One is

20 I want to explain the longer recess we had and the fact that

21 there's going to be some more reading and explain that,

22 although we made a commitment to try not to waste your time,

23 we have had to do a little reshuffling because of

24 Mr. Schmidt's flu. So please understand why that has taken

25 place, and we are doing every effort, making every effort not

719

1 to waste your time.

2 I'm told that the next order of business will be the

3 reading of sections of the questioning of the defendant El

4 Hage before the Grand Jury, which is relevant to the counts in

5 the indictment naming the defendant El Hage and accusing him

6 of committing perjury before the Grand Jury.

7 These are the perjury counts in the indictment which

8 are Counts 287 to 308, and understand, then, this testimony is

9 admissible and is relevant only to the defendant El Hage. I


34/183

10 think that's the first occasion in which I have advised you

11 that testimony is not being received, is not admissible for

12 all purposes, but for a limited purpose, the limited purpose

13 being with respect to the defendant El Hage and with respect

14 to the perjury counts of the indictment, 287 through 305.

15 I'm also handed a stipulation which says that if

16 called as a witness -- remember I told you there are two types

17 of stipulations, one is as to facts and the other is as to

18 what a witness would say if the witness were called, and this

19 stipulation is that, if called as a witness to testify,

20 Careyann Rosenblatt, an official Grand Jury reporter for the

21 Southern District of New York, would testify that Exhibit 400

22 is a true and accurate transcription of the proceedings before

23 a Grand Jury in the Southern District of New York, which took

24 place on September 24, 1997.

25 It is further stipulated and agreed that Government's

720

1 401, 402, 403A through 403A5, 404 through 410 are copies of

2 the Grand Jury Exhibits 1 through 10 referenced in that

3 testimony.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge. At this time the

5 government would just offer those exhibits referred to in the

6 Grand Jury testimony with the exception that to the extent

7 photographs are looked at but not recognized, we will not

8 offer those exhibits.

9 THE COURT: Very well.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: So, for the record, that would be


35/183

11 Exhibits 401, 402, and 403D, H, L, M, N, O, P, Q, Z, AE and

12 AG, and as to those exhibits just the specific photographs are

13 referred to, which has page 2 on it, and then Government

14 Exhibit 405, 409 and 410.

15 (Government Exhibits 401, 402, and 403D, H, L, M, N,

16 O, P, Q, Z, AE and AG, and 405, 409 and 410 received in

17 evidence)

18 MR. FITZGERALD: And we will proceed by having

19 paralegal specialist Abigale Sada and Gerrard Francisco will

20 read the transcript into the record, with Ms. Sada doing the

21 introduction or time and the questions by the questioner, and

22 Mr. Francisco will provide the answers. And there are also

23 three other stipulations between the government and counsel

24 for El Hage which I will interrupt the reading to recite that

25 stipulation at the appropriate point.

721

1 THE COURT: All right. Understand, ladies and

2 gentlemen, that the answers are being given by a paralegal.

3 His demeanor, his inflexion is irrelevant. It's simply to

4 speed the process that is taking place.

5 Very well, you may proceed to do that.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Also, Judge, we'll be displaying the

7 pages on the screen, with the exception of I think three pages

8 for which there had to be a change. So there will be three

9 pages that won't be displayed on the screen, but otherwise the

10 jury will be able to follow along.


36/183

11 MR. FRANCISCO: United States Grand Jury, Southern

12 District of New York, In Re: John Doe, May 1996, additional,

13 United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, New York,

14 10007. September 24, 1997, 11:04 a.m. Appearance by

15 assistant United States attorney, whose name is redacted,

16 Careyann Rosenblatt, RPR, CSR, RMR, Acting Grand Jury

17 Reporter.

18 "Colloquy precedes.

19 "Time noted: 11:06 a.m.

20 "Witness enters room.

21 "WADIH EL HAGE, called as witness,

22 "Having been first duly sworn by The

23 "Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined

24 "And testified as follows:

25 "EXAMINATION

722

1 "BY ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY:

2 "Q. Mr. El Hage, can you tell the Grand Jury for the record

3 what your name is and please spell it.

4 "A. It is Wadih, W-A-D-I-H, and last name is El Hage, E-L

5 H-A-G-E.

6 "Q. Legally did you have a different name at a different time

7 in your life other than Wadih El Hage?

8 "A. No.

9 "Q. You have to speak up so everyone can hear you.

10 "A. Okay.

11 "Q. Were you ever known as John Draid, D-R-A-I-D?


37/183

12 "A. No.

13 "Q. Do you know anyone by the name of John Draid, D-R-A-I-D?

14 "A. No."

15 THE COURT: Just a moment.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: There's a stipulation that the

17 government does not contend that Wadih El Hage ever used the

18 name John Draid.


20 "Q. I would like to begin by advising you of what your rights

21 are before the Grand Jury. And for the record, my name is"

22 (redacted) "and I am an assistant U.S. attorney here in the

23 Southern District of New York.

24 "This Grand Jury is investigating violations of Title

25 18, United States Code, Sections 371, 844, 921, 1958, 1959 and

723

1 2332. I will tell you what those numbers mean.

2 "Section 371 is a conspiracy statute. Section 844

3 relates to bombings of buildings in interstate commerce.

4 "Section 921 relates to transportation of weapons.

5 "Section 1958 relates to interstate and foreign

6 travel in aid of racketeering activity.

7 "1959 relates to murders and violent crimes in aid of

8 racketeering activity. And Section 2332 and the ones that

9 follow relate to terrorism.

10 "Those are the charges that this grand jury generally

11 is investigating.


38/183

12 "In the course of its investigation, if the Grand

13 Jury uncovers evidence of other alleged illegal activity, it

14 also has the power to charge or investigate those other

15 federal crimes.

16 "Do you understand that general nature of the

17 investigation? You have to say yes or no for the record.

18 "A. Yes.

19 "Q. You have a Constitutional right to refuse to answer any

20 questions if a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you

21 personally.

22 "Do you understand that right?

23 "A. I do.

24 "Q. And if you choose to answer a question, any statement

25 that you do make can be used against you in a court of law or

724

1 other legal proceeding.

2 Do you understand that?

3 "A. Yes.

4 "Q. If you decide to answer any questions, you may stop

5 answering at any time and invoke your privilege against

6 self-incrimination.

7 "Do you understand that?

8 "A. Yes.

9 "Q. You have a right to consult with an attorney if you wish.


11 "A. Yes.

12 "Q. And while you do not have the right to have a lawyer


39/183

13 present in the Grand Jury room, the Grand Jury would permit

14 you, if you wished, a reasonable opportunity to step outside

15 the Grand Jury room and consult with an attorney if you so

16 desire.


18 "A. Yes.

19 "Q. And you understand that if you could not afford an

20 attorney, you could apply to the Court to have an attorney

21 appointed for you.


23 "A. Yes.

24 "Q. For the record, today you are not represented by an

25 attorney?

725

1 "A. No.

2 "Q. Now, the testimony that you are about to give, if you

3 choose to do so, will be under oath. That means that the

4 Grand Jury has the power to indict you for perjury if it finds

5 that you have willfully testified falsely as to any material

6 or important fact.


8 "A. Yes.

9 "Q. And the maximum penalty for each count of perjury is five

10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.


12 "A. Yes.


40/183

13 "Q. And you should also understand that if you tell multiple

14 false statements, if you tell more than one lie in the Grand

15 Jury, you could be charged with more than one count and get

16 higher penalties?


18 "A. Yes.

19 "Q. You should also understand that based upon your

20 association and conduct with others, that your conduct is also

21 being investigated by this Grand Jury for possible violations

22 of criminal law.


24 "A. Yes.

25 "Q. Do you understand your rights?

726

1 "A. Yes, I do.

2 "Q. Now, what I would like to do if you are willing to answer

3 questions, I would like you to begin by telling the jury where

4 you were born?

5 "A. I was born in Lebanon.

6 "Q. In what year?

7 "A. 1960.

8 "Q. Can you tell the jury when you left Lebanon and where you

9 went?

10 "A. When I was two years old I left Lebanon to Kuwait with my

11 parents.

12 "Q. And did there come a time when you left Kuwait?

13 "A. The year?


41/183

14 "Q. Yes.

15 "A. 1978.

16 "Q. When you left Kuwait in 1978, where did you go to?

17 "A. I came to the states.

18 "Q. What particular state?

19 "A. Louisiana.

20 "Q. From 1978, how long did you stay in Louisiana?

21 "A. Until 1983.

22 "Q. And where did you go in 1983?

23 "A. To Pakistan.

24 "Q. And where in Pakistan?

25 "A. Peshawar.

727

1 "Q. And what did you do in Peshawar?

2 "A. I worked with the Muslim World League helping the

3 refugees, Afghanistan refugees.

4 "Q. For how long did you stay in Peshawar working with the

5 Muslim World League helping Afghani refugees?

6 "A. Until the end of '94 -- '84. Until the end of '84.

7 "Q. And where did you go at the end of '84?

8 "A. I came back in the States.

9 "Q. To what state?

10 "A. Louisiana.

11 "Q. Just focusing on your first trip to Peshawar in 1983, did

12 you have any contact at that time with a person by the name of

13 Sheik Abdullah Azzam, A-Z-Z-A-M?


42/183

14 "A. Yes, I met him in Peshawar.

15 "Q. Did you work with him at the Muslim World League, with

16 shake Abdullah Azzam at that time?

17 "A. No, he wasn't working with Muslim World League.

18 "Q. Did you engage in any firearms training in Peshawar

19 during the 1983, 1984 time period?

20 "A. No, I didn't.

21 "Q. Did you carry a weapon?

22 "A. Just carried a weapon, yes, for the interest of carrying

23 a weapon.

24 "Q. Did you ever travel into Afghanistan during that time

25 period?

728

1 "A. No.

2 "Q. So you stayed in the country of Pakistan at all times?

3 "A. Yes.

4 "Q. Now, what did you do when you got back to Louisiana in

5 1984?

6 "A. I continued my studies in the university.

7 "Q. Which university was that in Louisiana?

8 "A. The University of Southwestern Louisiana.

9 "Q. Did you get a degree from that school?

10 "A. Yes.

11 "Q. When did you get the degree?

12 A. In 1986.

13 "Q. From '84, once you returned to Louisiana in 1984, did

14 there come a time when you left Louisiana? Did you go


43/183

15 somewhere else?

16 "A. In the States?

17 "Q. Yes.

18 "A. Yes, I did.

19 "Q. Where did you go?

20 "A. To Arizona.

21 "Q. What year did you go to Arizona?

22 "A. In '95.

23 "Q. '95 or '85?

24 "A. '85, I am sorry.

25 "Q. How long did you stay in Arizona?

729

1 "A. For about two weeks.

2 "Q. The purpose of your trip to Arizona was?

3 "A. To get married.

4 "Q. And after you got married in Arizona, where did you go?

5 "A. I went back to Louisiana.

6 "Q. Did there come a time when you left Louisiana again? Did

7 you go somewhere else?

8 "A. I visited a few other states.

9 "Q. Did you go back to Pakistan at any time after 1985?

10 "A. Yes, in 1986.

11 "Q. When you went to Pakistan in 1986, where in Pakistan did

12 you go?

13 "A. It was the town of Q-U-E-T-T-A, Quetta.

14 "Q. When you went to Quetta, what did you do?


44/183

15 "A. I worked with Mektab al Khidemat.

16 "Q. M-E-K-T-A-B A-L K-H-I-D-E-M-A-T.

17 For how long did you work for Mektab al Khidemat?

18 "A. Almost a year.

19 "Q. Does Mektab al Khidemat in Arabic mean Services Office?

20 "A. Yes.

21 "Q. When you worked for the Services Office for a year, who

22 did you work for? Who was your boss?

23 "A. Well, the boss for Mektab al Khidemat in all Pakistan was

24 Sheik Abdullah Azzam.

25 "Q. Did you work directly for Sheik Abdullah Azzam or did you

730

1 work for someone else?

2 "A. My immediate bows?

3 "Q. Yes.

4 "A. No, it was someone else.

5 "Q. Who was he?

6 "A. His name is Abu Jandal.

7 "Q. Abu, spell the last name.

8 "A. J-A-N-D-A-L.

9 "Q. Abu Jandal?

10 "A. Yes.

11 "Q. The word Abu means father of?

12 "A. Yes.

13 "Q. Do you know what his real legal name was besides Abu

14 Jandal?

15 "A. No.


45/183

16 "Q. Was it is a practice in Pakistan and Afghanistan to use

17 Abu names rather than real names?

18 "A. Yes, it is a practice in many Arab countries.

19 "Q. When you lived in Arizona, did you have an Abu name?

20 "A. No.

21 "Q. Were you referred to as Abu Abdullah?

22 "A. Yes, after I had my child.

23 "Q. And your child's name was Abdullah?

24 "A. Yes.

25 "Q. Sometimes people would call you Abu Abdullah?

731

1 "A. Yes.

2 "Q. Are you also known as Abu al Sabbur, A-B-U, separate word

3 A-L, separate word S-A-B-B-U-R?

4 "A. Yes.

5 "Q. And also referred to as The Engineer, Abu al Sabbur?

6 "A. Some people might call me. Whoever knew that I studied

7 and had a degree in the States, they would call me engineer,

8 but it wasn't a famous name.

9 "Q. Now, when did you leave -- in the period of 1986 when you

10 were working for the Services Office, did you have any contact

11 with Usama Bin Laden?

12 "A. He visited once. I saw him. We didn't have any talks.

13 I just saw him coming to the office and talking to the boss

14 there.

15 "Q. Was that the first time you ever saw Usama Bin Laden?


46/183

16 "A. Yes.

17 "Q. Did you know if he had any relationship with the Mektab

18 al Khidemat, the Services Office, or Sheik Abdullah Azzam at

19 that time?

20 "A. Yes, I knew he was the financier for Mektab al Khidemat.

21 "Q. You understood Usama Bin Laden was providing the money to

22 Mektab al Khidemat?

23 "A. Yes.

24 "Q. During the time in 1986 when you were in Pakistan, did

25 you engage in any firearms training?

732

1 "A. No.

2 "Q. Did you engage in the shooting of any firearms?

3 "A. No.

4 "Q. Did you carry a weapon?

5 "A. Probably once or twice for the same reason of being

6 interested in carrying a gun or -- a gun.

7 "Q. Why would you be interested in carrying a gun? What was

8 the reason?

9 "A. Just, I don't know, a hobby or something like that. Many

10 people like to carry guns.

11 "Q. What kind of gun did you carry?

12 "A. An AK-47.

13 "Q. An AK-47.

14 'Did you ever travel into Afghanistan when you were

15 in Pakistan in the 1986, 1987 period?

16 "A. Yes.


47/183

17 "Q. When you traveled into Afghanistan there was a war going

18 on, correct?

19 "A. Right.

20 "Q. And the war was against the Russians?

21 "A. Yes.

22 "Q. Did you fight in that war?

23 "A. No.

24 "Q. Did you carry a gun when you went into Afghanistan during

25 wartime?

733

1 "A. There was a time once or twice when I carried a gun.

2 "Q. Were you ever trained how to use a rocket-propelled

3 grenade launcher, RPG?

4 "A. No.

5 "Q. Have you seen an RPG?

6 "A. Yes, I have.

7 "Q. Were you ever shot at while you were in Pakistan or

8 Afghanistan?

9 "A. Was I shot at? No.

10 "Q. Did you ever shoot at anyone?

11 "A. No.

12 "Q. During the time that you were in Pakistan in 1986, 1987,

13 did you ever meet a person by the name of Azmarai,

14 A-Z-M-A-R-A-I?

15 "A. '86, '87, no.

16 "Q. Now I am going to show you what has been marked for


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17 identification as Grand Jury Exhibit 3, the report. I will

18 describe it so the record won't be confused later.

19 "It has two Grand Jury exhibit stickers. One of them

20 says 9 on it without a date. That is from a prior use. And

21 for today I put a sticker on it, Grand Jury Exhibit 3 with

22 today's date, which I believe is September 24, 1997.

23 "It has pictures in it numbered 1 through 77, and on

24 the back page of 77 an unnumbered picture which has more than

25 one person in it. So there should be a total of besides the

734

1 pictures numbered 1 through 77 on yellow Post-Its, there is

2 one additional photograph on the back of page 77 showing

3 multiple males carrying weapons.

4 "What I am going to ask you to do, Mr. El Hage, is to

5 look through this book, I think you have seen it before, and

6 just look at each number, read the number out loud and tell

7 the Grand Jury whether or not you recognize the person in the

8 picture, and when you have done that, we will go back and ask

9 you particular questions about who the people are and how it

10 is that you know them.


12 "A. Yes.

13 "Q. Please take whatever time you need.

14 "(Witness perusing exhibit.)

15 "Q. If I could ask you to do one page at a time and read out

16 the number. If you recognize, say No. 1, I recognize him, or

17 No. 1, I don't recognize him, so we are clear on the record


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18 who you know and don't know.

19 "A. No. 1, I don't recognize.

20 "No. 2, I don't recognize.






735

1 "No. 8, I recognize.

2 "Q. And before you go on, No. 8, what, do you know the name

3 of the person pictured in No. 8?

4 "A. He is Azmarai.

5 "Q. Okay. We will come back to that. Continue with No. 9.

6 "A. No. 9, I don't recognize.



9 "12, I don't recognize.



12 "15, I recognize.

13 "Q. And what is the name of the person you recognize in No.

14 15?

15 "A. Zindani.

16 "Q. Do you know Zindani's first name?

17 "A. I don't remember.


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18 "Q. Z-I-N-D-A-N-I.

19 "Continue with No. 16.

20 "A. I don't recognize.






736


2 "23, I recognize.

3 "Q. Okay."

4 MR. FRANCISCO: Lines 13 through 22 are redacted.

5 "Q. And when you went to Kuwait, what high school did you go

6 to?

7 "A. The Ahmadi High School.

8 "Q. Spell the name of your high school.

9 "A. A-H-M-A-D-I.

10 "Q. What years did you attend the Ahmadi High School in

11 Kuwait?

12 "A. '74 through '78, four years.

13 "Q. The person in No. 23, did you ever see that person when

14 you were in Kuwait?

15 "A. No.

16 "Q. Continue with No. 24.


18 "25, I do recognize.


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19 "Q. Who is No. 25?

20 "A. He is Sayyid Nosair.

21 "Q. Sayyid Nosair. Have you met Sayyid Nosair in person?

22 "A. Yes.

23 "Q. Where did you meet Sayyid Nosair in person?

24 "A. At the Services Office here in New York.

25 "Q. The branch office of Mektab al Khidemat, the Service

737

1 Office in New York?

2 "A. Yes.

3 "Q. What year did you meet Sayyid Nosair there?

4 "A. I can't recall. I came here about three, four times. I

5 can't recall exactly which year was it. I can find out.

6 "Q. How would you be able to find out? What would help your

7 memory?

8 "A. From my previous passport entrance and exit of the

9 States, because I just came here.

10 "A JUROR: Are we supposed to hear him?

11 "ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes.

12 "A. I came to this office when we were traveling to the

13 States from Pakistan back to this office, so it was the only

14 time I met him. It was one of those visits.

15 "Q. Do you know who else was present in the room when you met

16 Sayyid Nosair?

17 "A. I believe Mustafa Shalabi. Yes.

18 "Q. Anyone else you recall?


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19 "A. Maybe Zindani, maybe Abouohalima. Those are the people I

20 met here in New York. I can't recall if they were all at the

21 same time or different times.

22 "Q. But the people you met in New York included Sayyid

23 Nosair, Zindani, Abouhalima and Shalabi?

24 "A. Yes.

25 "Q. Do you know where Mr. Sayyid Nosair is today?

738

1 "A. He is in jail.

2 "Q. Do you know what he is in jail for?

3 "A. For a crime, killing.

4 "Q. Killing whom?

5 "A. Kahane.

6 "Q. Is that the Rabbi Meyer Kahane?

7 "A. Yes.

8 "Q. Did you ever discuss with either Zindani and Shalabi or

9 Abouhalima whether Sayyid Nosair killed Kahane?

10 "A. No, never.

11 "Q. How do you know Nosair killed Kahane?

12 "A. I heard it in the news.

13 "Q. Did you ever travel to firearms training with any of the

14 people in New York?

15 "A. No.

16 "Q. Did you ever shoot a gun at a range or anywhere else in

17 New York, New Jersey, or Connecticut?

18 "A. No.

19 "Q. Why don't you continue with picture No. 26.


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21 "Q. Sorry?

22 "A. 26, I don't.

23 "Q. Have you ever seen that person before in the newspaper or

24 magazines?

25 "A. I don't recall.

739

1 "Q. Does he look like anyone you know?

2 "A. Maybe Sheik, the blind Sheik, Omar Abdel Rahman?

3 "Q. So he looks like the blind Sheik, Sheik Omar Abdel

4 Rahman?

5 "A. Close.

6 "Q. Have you personally ever met with Sheik Omar Abdel

7 Rahman?

8 "A. Yes, at the mosque here in New York.

9 "Q. How many times?

10 "A. Probably twice at the prayers.

11 "Q. Have you ever met with the Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman

12 outside of New York?

13 "A. No.

14 "Q. At the mosque you met Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, what was

15 the name of the mosque?

16 "A. Al Farouq.

17 "Q. F-A-R-O-U-Q?

18 "A. Yes.

19 "Q. Is that located in Brooklyn?


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20 "A. Yes.

21 "Q. Have you ever had any personal conversations between you

22 and Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman?

23 "A. No.

24 "Q. You have never seen him outside of New York?

25 "A. No, never.

740

1 "Q. You never saw him in Afghanistan?

2 "A. No.

3 "Q. Why don't you continue with No. 27.

4 "A. I don't.


6 "29, I have seen the face, but I can't remember where

7 or when or how.

8 "Q. Okay. Do you know if you ever saw that face in the New

9 York area?

10 "A. It could be. I can't remember exactly where, but I

11 remember seeing this face once before.

12 "Q. Do you know who might have been with that face when you

13 saw it?

14 "A. Can't remember.

15 "Q. One more question. Do you ever recall seeing that person

16 on a trip to Saudi Arabia?

17 "A. No.

18 "Q. Continue on with No. 30.

19 "A. No. 30, I recognize.

20 "Q. And who do you recognize No. 30 to be?


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21 "A. I don't know the name, but I have seen him also at

22 Services Office here in New York.

23 "Q. Okay. Have you ever spoken to him, as far as you know?

24 "A. Once said hi, that's all.

25 "Q. Have you ever seen the person pictured in No. 30 outside

741

1 of the New York State area?

2 "A. No.

3 "Q. Have you ever conducted any business with the person

4 depicted in No. 30?

5 "A. No.

6 "Q. No. 31?


8 "Q. No. 32?


10 "Q. No. 33?

11 "A. I do.

12 "Q. Where did you see the person pictured in photo No. 33?

13 "A. In Sudan.

14 "Q. And when in Sudan?

15 "A. In 19 -- either '93 or '94.

16 "Q. And do you know if you ever saw the person prior to that

17 time anywhere else in the world?

18 "A. No, I don't remember.

19 "Q. Do you remember the name of that person pictured in No.

20 33?


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21 "A. Could be Abu Malik.

22 "Q. Could be Abu Malik, A-B-U, M-A-L-I-K?

23 "A. Yes.

24 "Q. But you are not sure?

25 "A. Not sure.

742

1 "Q. The person depicted in No. 33, do you know what country

2 he is a citizen of?

3 "A. He is American.

4 "Q. So you saw an American citizen in the Sudan, the person

5 in No. 33, in 1993 or 1994?

6 "A. Yes.

7 "Q. Where in the Sudan did you see him?

8 "A. In Khartoum.

9 "Q. Where in Khartoum?

10 "A. At the company I used to work at.

11 "Q. And the name of that company was?

12 "A. Taba.

13 "Q. T-A-B-A?

14 "A. Yes.

15 "Q. Taba Investments?

16 "A. Yes.

17 "Q. Who owned Taba Investments?

18 "A. Usama Bin Laden.

19 "Q. Where was the Taba Investments office in Khartoum?

20 "A. In town.

21 "Q. Was it in the Riyadh section of town?


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22 "A. No, not Riyadh section. I lived in the Riyadh section.

23 It is a famous street, I can't remember the name of it.

24 "Q. Do you remember the name of the building?

25 "A. It was a house. It was a house turned into an office.

743

1 "Q. Tell the Grand Jury what you recall about the time you

2 saw the person pictured in No. 33 being in the Sudan at the

3 office at Taba Investments.

4 "A. Excuse me?

5 "Q. What happened at the time you saw him in the Sudan? What

6 was he doing there?

7 "A. I don't know what was he doing, but when he talked to me,

8 he said I am American, I am from New York, so I invited him to

9 my house, and we had lunch together.

10 "Q. Did he tell you whether or not he was ever in the

11 American military?


13 "Q. Did he look like he was fit and trim?

14 "A. Yes. I think he was martial art. He had training.

15 "Q. Training in martial arts?

16 "A. Yes.

17 "Q. Do you know if he had ever been to Afghanistan?


19 "Q. And do you know if he had ever been to Pakistan?

20 "A. I don't know, I don't recall.

21 "Q. Do you know whether or not the person depicted in No. 33


58/183

22 knew Abouhalima from New York?

23 "A. I don't know.

24 "Q. Do you know whether or not the person depicted in No. 33

25 knew Nosair from New York?

744

1 "A. I don't know.

2 "Q. Do you know if he knew Shalabi from New York?

3 "A. No, I don't know.

4 "Q. Now, you were in the Sudan in 1993 and 1994 living there?

5 "A. Yes.

6 "Q. And you knew three or four people from New York --

7 correct? -- from the Services Office?

8 "A. In Sudan?

9 "Q. When you were in New York you had met three or four

10 people?

11 "A. Yes.

12 "Q. And this fellow shows up from New York as an American

13 citizen, which is unusual in the Sudan, correct?

14 "A. For me.

15 "Q. Did you ask him about the people you knew in New York

16 from the mosque?

17 "A. No, I don't remember asking him, no.

18 "Q. You mentioned an Abu Malik. You are not sure whether

19 that his name or not?

20 "A. Right.

21 "Q. The person you remember as Abu Malik, had Abu Malik been

22 to Afghanistan?


59/183

23 "A. Abu Malik, I remember someone called Abu Malik, but I

24 can't remember his picture how he looked like.

25 "Q. What did Abu Malik do in Afghanistan?

745

1 "A. He was with the mujahadeen.

2 "Q. And the mujahadeen were the people fighting the Russians?

3 "A. Yes.

4 "Q. They carried guns and RPG's and shot at the Russian

5 soldiers?

6 "A. Yes.

7 "Q. What did the person named Abu Malik do for the

8 mujahadeen?

9 "A. I met him in Peshawar, and he told me he was with the

10 mujahadeen.

11 "Q. In what year?

12 "A. In '89.

13 "Q. Did you ever see Abu Malik again after that?

14 "A. No.

15 "Q. The person in No. 33, you are not sure whether he is Abu

16 Malik, you are just sure you saw him in the Sudan?

17 "A. Yes.

18 "Q. Who else did you see at Taba Investments' offices in the

19 Sudan besides Abu Malik?

20 "A. I really don't know.

21 "Q. Did Madani al Tayyib, did he work at the same office as

22 you?


60/183

23 "A. Yes.

24 "Q. Do you know if the person in No. 33 spoke to Madani al

25 Tayyib when he was there?

746

1 "A. I don't remember if he spoke to him or not.

2 "Q. Do you know if the person depicted in No. 33 knows Usama

3 Bin Laden?

4 "A. No.

5 "Q. Did you ever discuss mujahadeen with the person depicted

6 in photograph No. 33?

7 "A. I don't remember, no, I don't think so.

8 "Q. How many times did you see the person depicted in No. 33

9 in the Sudan?

10 "A. Just that one day.

11 "Q. Just once?

12 "A. Yes.

13 "Q. Did anyone indicate to you that he was on the run from

14 anyone who was looking for him?

15 "A. No.

16 "Q. Did anyone indicate he was wanted by any authorities?

17 "A. No.

18 "Q. What did you think of the person in No. 33 when you saw

19 him in the Sudan?

20 "A. What did I think of him?

21 "Q. Yes.

22 "A. I thought he was sent by the American Embassy to check on

23 me probably.


61/183

24 "Q. Why do you think the American Embassy would send him to

25 check on you?

747

1 "A. Because I was in Sudan and the Sudanese government was

2 one of the governments that is not favored for other

3 countries, and mainly the United States.

4 "Q. So that we are clear, so you didn't think he was coming

5 to do you a favor from the embassy, you thought he was there

6 to spy on you?

7 "A. Yes. This thought came to me.

8 "Q. And you invited him home to your house for lunch?

9 "A. Yes.

10 "Q. Was that before or after you thought he was there to spy

11 on you?

12 "A. Probably before.

13 "Q. Did you talk to anyone about the person depicted in No.

14 33, any of your friends, and ask them what they thought of

15 this person?

16 "A. No.

17 "Q. Now, you saw him once and you invited him to lunch at

18 your house?

19 "A. Yes.

20 "Q. Did he come to lunch?

21 "A. Yes.

22 "Q. Who was there for lunch?

23 "A. Just me and him and my family was.


62/183

24 "Q. And how long did he stay for lunch?

25 "A. Probably hour and a half.

748

1 "Q. Do you know what he was doing, if he had gone to any

2 other countries on the way to the Sudan on that occasion?

3 "A. He told me he left his wife and children in Egypt and he

4 came to Sudan.

5 "Q. Do you know where in Egypt he left his wife and children?

6 "A. Cairo.

7 "Q. Cairo. Do you know why he left his wife and children in

8 Cairo?

9 "A. No.

10 "Q. Do you know if any family events were going on at the

11 time in his life when you saw him?

12 "A. Family events?

13 "Q. Any weddings, funerals, things like that?

14 "A. No, I don't know.

15 "Q. Do you know where he went after he left Khartoum?

16 "A. I don't know.

17 "Q. Do you know if he ever traveled to Yemen?

18 "A. No, I don't.

19 "Q. Do you know if he ever traveled to Somalia?

20 "A. I don't.

21 "Q. What is your best recollection of the year that you saw

22 this person depicted in photograph 33?

23 "A. The year I saw him? Either '93 or '94.


63/183

24 "Q. Do you recall what time of year it was?

25 "A. No, I can't.

749

1 "Q. Anything else you can recall about the person depicted in

2 photograph No. 33?

3 "A. That is it.

4 "Q. Why don't you move on to photograph 34.


6 "Q. You have never seen the person pictured in No. 34?

7 "A. No.

8 "Q. 35?

9 "A. Don't recognize.

10 "Q. 36?


12 "Q. 37?


14 "Q. 38?


16 "Q. Have you ever been to Denmark?

17 "A. No.

18 "Q. Ever been to Copenhagen?

19 "A. No.

20 "Q. 39?


22 "Q. 40?


24 "Q. 41?


64/183


750

1 "Q. 42?


3 "Q. 43?


5 "Q. 44?


7 "Q. 45?


9 "Q. 46?


11 "Q. 47?

12 "A. I do.

13 "Q. Who is No. 47?

14 "A. It is Abouhalima.

15 "Q. And where did you first meet Abouhalima?

16 "A. At the Services Office.

17 "Q. In?

18 "A. In New York.

19 "Q. New York. Did you ever meet Abouhalima outside of the

20 United States?

21 "A. No.

22 "Q. Do you know if he ever went to Afghanistan or Pakistan,

23 Abouhalima?

24 "A. No, I don't think he had ever been there.


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25 "Q. How many times did you see Abouhalima in New York?

751

1 "A. Probably three times. At three different visits.

2 "Q. Why don't you tell us about the first time you met

3 Abouhalima.

4 "A. First time?

5 "Q. Yes.

6 "A. Could have been '87.

7 "Q. Do you recall how it is that you met him?

8 "A. Excuse me?

9 "Q. Do you recall how it is that you met Abouhalima?

10 "A. At the office, at the Services Office.

11 "Q. Do you know who introduced you?

12 "A. He was there in the office and I just talked to him.

13 "Q. By the way, do you know where Abouhalima is today?

14 "A. He is in jail.

15 "Q. Do you know what he is in jail for?

16 "A. He was accused of the World Trade Center bombing.

17 "Q. So he is in jail for the World Trade Center bombing?

18 "A. Yes.

19 "Q. When you met him in 1987, when was the next time you met

20 him after that?

21 "A. Probably on my way back, because when I met him the first

22 time I was going to Pakistan. I went there for a month and

23 then I came back. He also came to Mektab al Khidemat and I

24 met him.

25 Q. That was the second time that you met him?


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752

1 "A. Yes.

2 "Q. Do you recall who was there the second time you met

3 Abouhalima?

4 "A. Probably Mustafa Shalabi."

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I believe at this point

6 your Honor was going to give an instruction regarding the

7 World Trade Center bombing to the jury.

8 THE COURT: Yes. The instruction is that there is no

9 count in this indictment alleging that any defendant in this

10 case was involved in the bombing of the World Trade Center.

11 The bombing of the World Trade Center is not charged against

12 any defendant in this case.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.

14 "Q. By the way, do Abouhalima and Shalabi look alike?

15 "A. Yes, very much.

16 "Q. And do you recall what you discussed with Abouhalima on

17 the second occasion, the second time you met him?

18 "A. We never had any special discussion together.

19 "Q. We will come back to that.

20 "Did there come a third time you met Abouhalima?

21 "A. Yes, in '89.

22 "Q. And where was that?

23 "A. The same place.

24 "Q. And who was present in 1989?

25 "A. Same people, probably.


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753

1 "Q. And do you recall what you discussed with Abouhalima on

2 the third time you met him in 1989?

3 "A. That was when Shalabi died.

4 "Q. Shalabi was murdered, correct?

5 "A. Yes."

6 MR. FITZGERALD: If I could interrupt. There's also

7 a stipulation that the government did not contend that Wadih

8 El Hage participated in the murder of Mustafa Shalabi or had

9 any prior knowledge of the murder.


11 "Q. And was that the last time that you saw Abouhalima or did

12 you see him again after that?

13 "A. No, that was the last time I saw him.

14 "Q. We will come back to Shalabi's murder in a minute.

15 "Now, you understand it is important to give full and

16 complete answers to the Grand Jury.

17 "A. Yes.

18 "Q. You said you never had any special discussions with

19 Abouhalima; is that correct?

20 "A. Yes, at those visits.

21 "Q. Did you have special discussions with Abouhalima on any

22 other occasion?

23 "A. We probably talked over the phone.

24 "Q. Approximately how many times did you speak by phone to

25 Abouhalima?


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754

1 "A. Three, four times.

2 "Q. And what did you discuss by telephone?

3 "A. One time he asked me if I can buy weapons for him to come

4 and pick it up because he wanted to take it for the training,

5 training the people he was sending to Afghanistan.

6 "Q. So he called you to buy weapons so that he could pick

7 them up and use them to train people for Afghanistan?

8 "A. Yes.

9 "Q. When he called you, where did you live?

10 "A. In Texas, Dallas, Texas.

11 "Q. He called you, as you understood it, from New York?

12 "A. Yes.

13 "Q. What kind of weapons did he want you to buy?

14 "A. AK-47 and a Seminov.

15 "Q. S-E-M-I-N-O-V?

16 "A. I think so. I am not sure.

17 "Q. How many AK-47s did he want you to buy?

18 "A. One.

19 "Q. How many Seminovs did he want you to buy?

20 "A. Two.

21 "Q. And did he want you to buy any handguns?

22 "A. No.

23 "Q. What year was this?

24 "A. In '89.

25 "Q. And how do you place the date in your mind? Why do you


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755

1 remember it as 1989?

2 "A. It was before I left, I think it is the same period when

3 I left Dallas to Pakistan. Probably '89, '90, in that period.

4 Probably six-month period.

5 "Q. And at the time that Mr. Abouhalima asked you to buy

6 weapons for him, did you have any weapons yourself already?

7 "A. Yes, I had a handgun.

8 "Q. What kind of handgun?

9 "A. A revolver.

10 "Q. A revolver?

11 "A. I think it was a .45 revolver.

12 "Q. Was that a licensed weapon?

13 "A.

United States v. Bin Laden - Day 6 Transcript

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Transcript of United States v. Bin Laden - Day 6 Transcript