Uber Appeal Florida Driver Employee Hearing 08-17-2015 - Condensed

In The Matter Of:Rasier LLC and Department of Economic Opportunity

0026 2825 90-02, 0026 2834 68-02, 0026 2850 33-02

Protest of Liability Hearing

August 17, 2015

Original File Rasier-DEO_Hearing_8-17-2015.txt

Min-U-Script® with Word Index

Rasier LLC and Department of Economic Opportunity 0026 2825 90-02, 0026 2834 68-02, 0026 2850 33-02

Protest of Liability HearingAugust 17, 2015

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Volume I Pages 1 to 342 Exhibits 1 - 3 STATE OF FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY REEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE PROGRAM - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x PROTEST OF LIABILITY HEARING RE: : : MELISSA EWERS 0026 2825 90-02 : DARRIN E. McGILLIS 0026 2834 68-02 : MICHAEL HUTTON 0026 2850 33-02 : : : RASIER LLC : 1455 Market Street, Floor 4 : San Francisco, CA 94103-1355 : Petitioner, : : DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY : c/o Department of Revenue : Compliance Enforcement : Respondent. : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x BEFORE: Jackson Houser, Hearing Officer APPEARANCES (All Via Speakerphone): Littler, Mendelson P.C. (by Courtney B. Wilson, Esq.) Wells Fargo Center, 333 SE 2nd Avenue, Suite 2700, Miami, FL 33131, 305.400.7565, [email protected], for the Petitioner. Florida Department of Revenue (by Myra M. Taylor, Tax Auditor Supervisor, Compliance Campaigns) PO Box 6417, Tallahassee, FL 32314-6417, 850-717-7385, [email protected] for the Respondent. (Continued on )

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APPEARANCES (Continued) (All Via Speakerphone): Lichten & Liss-Riordan, P.C. (by Shannon Liss-Riordan, Esq.) 729 Boylston Street, Suite 2000, Boston, MA 02116, 617.994.5800, [email protected] - and - Sugarman & Susskind (by Noah S. Warman, Esq., and Michael Gillman, Esq.) 100 Miracle Mile, Suite 300, Coral Gables, FL 33134, 305.529.2801, nwarman@sugarmansusskindcom, [email protected], for the Joined Party Darrin McGillis. ALSO PRESENT: Melissa Ewers, Joined Party Darrin McGillis, Joined Party Michael Hutton, Joined Party Matthew Gore, Uber Representative Adelaide H. Pagano, Esq., Lichten & Liss-Riordan Anne Kramer, Lichten & Liss-Riordan Craig Thomas, Observer, Department of Revenue Celia Ampel, Observer, Daily Business Review Michael Vasquez, Observer, Miami Herald * * * * Held at: Department of Economic Opportunity Reempoyment Assistance Appeals The Caldwell Building 107 East Madison Street Tallahassee, Florida Monday, August 17, 2015 8:50 a.m. (Transcribed from an audio recording by Carol H. Kusinitz, Registered Professional Reporter) * * *

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1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS: EXAMINATION DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT 3 4 Matthew Gore (by H.O. Houser) 98 5 (by Mr. Wilson) 144 (by Ms. Liss-Riordan) 148 6 (by Ms. Taylor) 180 7 Darrin McGillis (by H.O. Houser) 200 8 (by Ms. Liss-Riordan) 249 316 (by Mr. Wilson) 288 9 (by Ms. Taylor) 309 10 Myra Taylor (by H.O. Houser) 32011 (by Mr. Wilson) 329 12 Matthew Gore (by H.O. Houser) 33213 (by Mr. Wilson) 333 (by Ms. Liss-Riordan) 33414 15 * * *16 17 E X H I B I T S 18 NO. ID. EVD. 19 1 Documents offered by the Florida 95 Department of Revenue20 2 Documents offered by the Petitioner 9521 3 Documents offered by the Joined 95 28722 Party McGillis 23 24 * * * *

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right. We 3 should be on the record. This is Docket No. 4 0026 2825 90-02, along with 0026 2834 68-02 and 5 0026 2850 33-02. I'm Jackson Houser. I'm the 6 Hearing Officer for the hearing. 7 We've been asked to contact several 8 observers. So we're going to contact the first of 9 those, Craig Thomas. 850-245-7123. (Phone ringing)10 RECORDED PHONE VOICE: Your call cannot be11 completed as dialed. Please consult your directory12 and call again or ask your operator for assistance.13 This is a recording.14 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right. I'll15 put it on speakerphone, because this is likely to16 take a while. Let's try again to contact the first17 observer. (Phone ringing)18 MR. THOMAS: Hello.19 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Hi. This is20 Jackson Houser, Florida Reemployment Assistance21 Appeals. I am recording. I'm calling Craig Thomas.22 MR. THOMAS: This is Craig.23 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: And, Mr. Thomas,24 you're going to be an observer for the hearing set

Min-U-Script® Doris O. Wong Associates, Inc. (1) Pages 1 - 4



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1 From a consumer's standpoint, they're 2 different -- the consumer is not going to be aware 3 of these different structures. What the consumer 4 sees is kind of, like, cheapest, nicer, nicest. 5 Q. And would it go in that order, that uberX 6 would be the cheapest, and uberSELECT next more 7 expensive, and uberBLACK the most expensive? 8 A. Exactly. So we call uberX our low-cost 9 product, uberSELECT a nicer ride, and uberBLACK is10 more of a luxury product.11 There are other ones as well: uberXL,12 which refers to uberX, but a larger vehicle that can13 seat up to six passengers; and uberSUV, which is the14 same thing, but for uberBLACK.15 Q. Okay. And with respect to Mr. McGillis, we16 have these documents, these agreements in the17 various styles that refer to an agreement, the18 Rasier Software Sublicense and Online Services19 Agreement. Is that the agreement between Rasier LLC20 and Mr. McGillis?21 A. I believe you're referring to the terms and22 conditions for an Uber partner agreement. So, yes,23 that would have been the terms and conditions that24 Mr. McGillis agreed to to partner with Rasier.

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1 Q. Okay. So there is another agreement 2 relating to the other joined parties that is similar 3 but slightly different, because it refers to the 4 other party as a transportation company as opposed 5 to a transportation provider. Why the difference? 6 A. My understanding is that the agreement, the 7 standard agreement, has changed over time from time 8 to time. I couldn't speak to why various changes 9 were made.10 Q. Okay. And so then what we've got in the11 file are what appear to be, like, form agreements,12 you know, like standard agreements, but I don't see13 any sort of agreement where there are any actual14 signatures showing that the parties have executed15 the agreement. Is there a reason for why we don't16 have a document like that?17 A. These agreements were all signed18 electronically.19 Q. In the case of Mr. McGillis, when did he20 sign his agreement?21 A. I don't have that in front of me. It would22 have been whenever he first signed on to the23 platform after being activated. Before you're able24 to receive your first trip request -- and we can

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1 talk about exactly what that is -- you're presented 2 with the terms and conditions to either agree or not 3 agree to. 4 Q. Okay. So how is it that somebody gets into 5 a position where they're even considered for being 6 able to sign the terms and conditions? 7 A. So a potential driver partner would go onto 8 our website, or there might be a mobile channel as 9 well, but effectively the same thing, fill out a10 form to sign up. This would include, you know,11 information about themselves. They would have to12 upload various documents that are required, such as13 driver's license, registration, insurance; again,14 fill out information about themselves and their15 vehicle; agree to a background check. And then a16 background check would be conducted on the person.17 Assuming that all the information and the18 documents and the background check are satisfactory,19 then the person can be activated to have access to20 the platform. That can be -- in most cases it's on21 an app that they download onto their own phone.22 They can also lease a phone from us, which has the23 same application on it. And then they sign into24 that application, using a user name and password

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1 that they establish earlier in the process. 2 Q. So I was going to ask about that at some 3 point. The agreement indicates that -- the terms 4 and conditions indicate that Uber will send the 5 driver a phone to use to, I guess, access the app. 6 So you're saying that that isn't always the case? 7 A. That is not always the case. The driver 8 partner may request a phone to be sent to them, and 9 then they'll pay a security deposit effectively on10 that and a weekly fee, or they can use their own11 phone, and then there's no cost associated with12 that.13 Q. Okay. Is there some sort of cost with14 being able to download the app in the first place?15 A. No. The app is available free of charge.16 Q. And how does -- now, somebody has to go17 through the application process, get approved and so18 on. So how is, I guess, access to the app limited19 to just those people that are approved?20 A. So during the process, when the person21 creates a user name and password, that will create22 an associated account on our platform. That account23 has a status associated with it. I think for this24 purpose, you could basically say either active or

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1 inactive. 2 If the account status is inactive, the 3 person can log in and see information about their 4 account, such as what type of additional 5 documentation is required, where they are in the 6 process, but they won't be able to, quote-unquote, 7 go on-line or log on and make themselves available, 8 which, when we say those terms, we mean make 9 themselves available to receive trip requests. It10 simply won't be possible.11 Once the person has met all the12 requirements including having valid documents,13 background check, et cetera, then internally their14 account will be activated. They will be an active15 partner on the platform. And then when they sign16 in, they will have that opportunity to click a17 button and make themselves available to receive trip18 requests.19 Q. And so what does that background check20 consist of?21 A. The background check is conducted by a22 third-party provider that is accredited by the23 National Association of Professional Background24 Screeners. They will check federal, state and local

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1 records. They run a Social Security trace. They 2 check the motor vehicle record and check the 3 National Sex Offender Registry. There may be some 4 other databases that they check as well. 5 Q. And so if the background check comes back 6 negative in some way, what does Rasier LLC 7 communicate to the applicant, if anything? 8 A. If there is information in the background 9 check that prevents us from partnering with this10 person, then we'll send an adverse action letter,11 effectively, under the FCRA stating that information12 in their background check has led us to decide not13 to contract with them.14 Q. FCRA referring to?15 A. Federal Credit Reporting Act? Fair Credit16 Reporting Act.17 Q. All right. And so then if somebody has18 been approved, to log on they have to, what,19 navigate to the Uber website and log in?20 A. So once they have passed all the steps21 necessary to be eligible to receive requests, then22 they'll download the app onto their phone or log in23 on the Uber phone and use the application on the24 phone to make themselves available for trip

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1 requests. 2 Q. And so what sort of information -- other 3 than perhaps pressing a button saying "I'm 4 available," what other information, if any, does the 5 driver have to provide at that point? 6 A. Once they have an active account, then at 7 that point there is no other information to provide, 8 other than using their user name and password to log 9 on and make themselves available.10 They may never do that. There may be11 partners in the system who have activated accounts12 but have never logged on, because they chose not to13 or just moved on. Or they can wait any amount of14 time that they want to. But at that point, the15 phone's GPS will, I guess, tell the system where16 they are and tell our platforms that they're17 available for requests.18 Q. So you need a particular kind of phone in19 order to access the app; is that right?20 A. That's right. You need a GPS-enabled smart21 phone, an iPhone, or, my understanding is, basically22 any Android phone would be able to do that.23 Q. And you said some people might wait or24 might not ever log on. But doesn't the agreement

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1 say that, if you haven't had any activity for 180 2 days, then you'll be sort of deactivated? 3 A. I believe that may be correct. I can't 4 remember the time frame exactly, but if the person 5 writes back in and says, "I'd like to be 6 reactivated," then we'll just kind of turn it back 7 on. 8 Q. So it's not that they're just removed from 9 the system; it's just they go from active status to10 inactive?11 A. Exactly. There's effectively no difference12 from their perspective, other than -- I believe the13 original goal of that is to encourage people to send14 phones back that they're leasing if they're not15 planning on using the service any longer.16 Q. Okay. Now, what percentage of drivers use17 an Uber phone and what percentage use their own?18 A. I don't know those numbers, but I can say19 that the vast majority use their own phone.20 Q. Okay. All right. Does the technology21 change from time to time such that somebody who has22 been using a particular phone suddenly finds that23 it's now obsolete, they can't access the app anymore24 with their phone?




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1 A. I'm not aware of that having happened, but 2 the technology does change from time to time, in 3 that a newer version of the app needs to be 4 downloaded. 5 Q. So then somebody logs on. The GPS function 6 on the phone tells Uber that the driver is available 7 and where. And so then what happens? 8 A. So when a customer or a rider uses a 9 separate app called the Rider App and they log on10 and make the trip request, our system will send that11 or forward that trip request on to the nearest12 driver partner who has made themselves available at13 that time.14 And so then on the driver partner's phone,15 they'll see that the trip request is being made.16 They'll see the location of the trip request and the17 first name of the person requesting the trip, and18 they'll have a certain period of time to accept the19 trip or not accept the trip. And if they don't20 accept the trip, it will be forwarded on to the next21 nearest partner.22 Q. Okay. So, what, there's like a message23 that comes up and says, "You've got a potential24 rider at such and such a location," "a bill at such

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1 and such a location. Accept? Yes or no," or is it 2 more elaborate than that? 3 A. It's even a little less elaborate than 4 that. It says that, and then there's maybe a 5 countdown on the screen, and you simply touch 6 anywhere on the screen to accept, or you let the 7 countdown expire to not accept. 8 Q. Okay. Is there some rule about how often, 9 if you get notification that there's somebody10 available, how often you have to accept?11 A. Partners are encouraged to accept the12 majority of trips. I believe that there might be13 various literature that suggests 80 percent or 9014 percent as a good threshold, as it maintains the15 reliability of the platform.16 Q. Okay. So what if somebody winds up17 accepting only, you know, two-thirds of the trip18 requests that are sent to them?19 A. It's possible that, over a period of time,20 if it's consistently like that, they might be sent21 an e-mail encouraging them to increase their22 acceptance rate while they're online or reminding23 them that if they're not truly available for trip24 requests or not interested in trip requests at that

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1 time, then it would be best to log off the system 2 and not make it appear that they're available for 3 requests when they're not actually available for 4 requests. 5 Q. The documentation refers to basically 6 competitors or similar companies to Uber. They 7 mention, what, Lyft and Sidecar. What, if anything, 8 do you know about how those companies operate? 9 A. To the best of my knowledge, their10 operations are fairly similar to what I've just11 described.12 Q. Well, could somebody have, you know, three13 different transportation network apps on his iPhone,14 where, you know, where he logs on to Uber for a bit15 and doesn't seem to be getting any trip requests,16 logs off, and then goes on to Lyft, and so on?17 A. Absolutely. And in fact a partner could18 even be logged on to both apps simultaneously and19 then see which one sends them a request first, or20 wait for a request that is closer than the other21 one. The Uber partner that picked me up yesterday22 to take me to the airport actually had a Lyft sign23 in his window. So it's relatively common.24 Q. But the agreement says that when you're

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1 working for Uber, you can't be working for anybody 2 else? 3 A. So my understanding is that refers to the 4 time period when you're actually on a trip. And so 5 a partner would be expected, if they have accepted 6 an Uber trip request, to then not make themselves 7 available on other platforms for that period of 8 time. My understanding is not that it precludes 9 them from making themselves available for trip10 requests simultaneously on other platforms.11 Q. Okay. So if I'm hearing you correctly,12 you're saying, as far as Rasier LLC or a Uber is13 concerned, somebody could log on when they're, I14 don't know, ten miles from the airport and get a15 trip request for somebody going to the airport, and16 then get a trip request from somebody at the airport17 under Lyft or Sidecar and take them back home?18 A. So I'm not sure I understood your scenario19 completely. Once they've accepted a trip request20 from the Uber platform, at that point in time and21 until that trip is complete, then they would be22 expected not to be on another platform and, for23 example, you know, use that other platform to24 decide, "Oh, I'm going to cancel this trip that I'm




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1 in the middle of and go do that other one." 2 But I guess if what you're saying is they 3 use the Uber platform to drop a passenger off at the 4 airport, and then when they're at the airport, after 5 the passenger is dropped off, then they can turn the 6 Lyft back on and see which one hits first, that 7 would be acceptable. 8 Q. And so I'm still not entirely clear. So a 9 driver gets this message that somebody wants a ride.10 The driver, if I'm hearing you correctly, has no11 idea of where the person is exactly, only that he's12 somewhere nearby, and no idea of where the person13 wants to go?14 A. No. The screen will display where the15 requester is. It will show their location. It will16 not show where the requester wants to go until the17 requester is in the car, and only in the case that18 the requester has actually entered the destination19 into the app. They have that option, or they can20 verbally direct the partner where they want to go.21 Q. Okay. So then what happens if the driver22 accepts the request, the person gets in the car and23 says, "Okay, take me to Boston," and he's down in24 Miami. Can the Uber driver at that point -- I mean,

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1 he's accepted the trip. Can he then say, "That's 2 too far"? 3 A. At that point, the partner is free to say, 4 "I don't want to go to Boston. You should request 5 another -- get someone else," and at that point 6 cancel the trip after accepting it. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. That can also happen earlier, before the 9 passenger even gets in the car, because they can10 contact one another via phone or text.11 Q. Okay. But I thought you said that, you12 know, when I was asking about, like, you know,13 competitors, that once a driver accepts the request14 from Uber, they're expected to complete that trip at15 least before going on and doing something else. So16 what --17 A. They can cancel that trip -- I'm sorry for18 talking over you. Please continue.19 Q. So what happens in a case like that, where20 the driver has accepted a trip and then it turns21 out, for whatever reason, the driver decides, "I22 don't want to do this," before he's actually started23 out, I guess, but still -- or it turns out that the24 trip is longer or to a dangerous location or, for

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1 whatever reason, the driver says, "Nah, I don't want 2 to do that anymore"? What happens -- what does the 3 driver have to do? What happens then? 4 A. So in that case, the driver is free to turn 5 down that trip after accepting it, and they can do 6 that through the app, and then it's over. And 7 that's clear from our terms and conditions. 8 The scenario that I was describing before 9 was, for example, if they're taking a passenger from10 Point A to Point B, and they were to leave their11 Lyft app on and the Lyft app says, "Hey, you've got12 a request halfway in between," that they, with the13 first passenger in the car, take a detour and pick14 up another passenger that was requested through15 another platform and commingle those two trips.16 Q. Okay. All right. And so in the case of17 that second scenario, the trip to Boston from Miami18 that I was talking about -- the trip has been19 accepted, but the driver doesn't actually take the20 person to Boston -- does he get any sort of payment21 at all for having shown up and having found out22 where the customer wants to go?23 A. It can depend on the circumstance. If it's24 been over -- I can't remember the exact sort of

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1 logic that our system uses, but if it's been longer 2 than five minutes, and that's when the passenger 3 decides -- or that's when the trip is cancelled, 4 then the passenger will be charged $5. 5 Generally that circumstance doesn't usually 6 occur in this scenario, because if I am a rider and 7 I know I want to go hundreds of miles, I'll 8 generally request the trip, the driver accepts, and 9 I'll immediately call that driver and see if they're10 willing to go that distance. And if they say no,11 then one of us will just cancel the trip.12 Q. So when the passenger through the rider app13 requests a trip, what information are they given?14 A. When the passenger requests a trip, they15 see -- once the trip has been accepted, they'll see16 the location of the vehicle. They'll be able to17 watch that vehicle make its way toward them on the18 map. They'll see the first name of the partner.19 They'll see a photo of the partner. They'll see the20 make and model and license plate of the vehicle.21 And they'll see an estimated time for arrival. They22 are also given the option to contact the driver, as23 I mentioned, via phone or text.24 Q. So then if the passenger, you know,




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1 requests a ride and then they take a look at the 2 photo of the driver or get some information about 3 the car and for whatever reason they want to say, 4 "Well, I don't want to ride in a German car" -- I'm 5 just making something up -- can the passenger cancel 6 the trip at that point? 7 A. Yes, they can. 8 Q. Are they on the hook for some, you know, 9 fee, if they do that?10 A. Again, only if it's been more than five11 minutes. And, again, maybe there's a little more12 logic in there, but only -- that's at least one of13 their requirements for a cancellation fee, that it's14 been more than five minutes.15 Q. If the passenger cancels, does the driver,16 who is sort of on his way but then gets notified, I17 guess, that the passenger has cancelled, does the18 driver get anything in that case?19 A. Yes. When a cancellation fee is charged,20 the driver gets that cancellation fee.21 Q. The documents indicate that whether a22 cancellation fee is charged or not is essentially up23 to Uber. Is that correct?24 A. The system automatically charges a

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1 cancellation fee after the five minutes, in that 2 scenario that I've described. 3 Q. And what about in other circumstances? 4 A. I'm sorry. I'm not sure I understand. 5 Q. Well, if a passenger, a requester, I guess 6 is the term you're using, if the requester requests 7 a ride, and four minutes and 30 seconds later, you 8 know, less than five minutes, cancels it, but the 9 Uber driver has already started, he's driven a few10 blocks and suddenly gets this message that the trip11 is cancelled, what happens in terms of the12 cancellation fee then?13 A. In that case, the cancellation fee wouldn't14 be charged.15 Q. And what information about that is given to16 the driver?17 A. Ahead of time, you mean?18 Q. Yes.19 A. I believe that the service fee schedule20 includes the cancellation fee, which is provided21 along with the terms and conditions.22 Q. Okay. So then once the driver has accepted23 the trip, shows up where the passenger is, what does24 the driver have to say or do at that point, if

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1 anything? 2 A. Once the driver accepts the request, the 3 driver will then make their way towards the location 4 of the passenger. Again, they may choose to call or 5 text if they find the location to be confusing or 6 want additional clarification or want to ask the 7 destination, things like that. 8 They arrive at the location. The passenger 9 will get into the car, either enter their10 destination into the app or verbally direct the11 driver where they want to go. They'll make their12 way to the destination. The passenger will exit the13 vehicle. The driver will press the button on their14 app that says the trip has been completed, and then15 the passenger's credit card will be automatically16 charged.17 Q. And so getting from where the passenger is18 picked up to where the passenger wants to go, who19 decides about how, you know, what route the driver20 is going to take?21 A. That would be between the passenger and the22 driver. Some passengers may choose to direct the23 route. The driver may choose to use their GPS, or24 they may choose to use their personal knowledge.

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1 Q. So there were some documents in the file 2 basically saying that Uber will advise drivers that 3 "It looks like your route on such-and-such a trip 4 was not the most efficient route" or something like 5 that. Is there some sort of communication from Uber 6 to the driver where they've gone on an apparently 7 roundabout trip? 8 A. That will only happen if a passenger feels 9 that they were taken on a roundabout route and then10 the passenger writes into Uber, and then Uber will11 look at the situation. But it's only at the request12 of the rider.13 Q. How does the driver get -- well, what14 payment does the driver get for a standard,15 straightforward sort of trip? How is that16 determined?17 A. So there's a rate schedule set forth in the18 service fee schedule which includes a per-minute, a19 per-mile and a base fare component. That can vary,20 based on the exact geographical location, but21 effectively there's the fixed portion, the time22 portion and the distance portion.23 And when the trip is completed, the smart24 phone that the driver is using will send that




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1 information to the servers. They calculate what 2 that route and total fare would be. They charge the 3 customer's credit card on behalf of the driver and 4 then transfer that payment, minus our fee, to the 5 driver's account, paid on a weekly basis. 6 Q. And why weekly? If the driver is driving, 7 you know, a couple of days a week, why wait for a 8 while before sending the payment to the driver? 9 A. I'm not part -- my guess is there's just a10 high fixed cost with doing a hundred or so11 transactions per person per week. And so if we send12 it over weekly, then it, you know, eliminates some13 of that fixed cost.14 Q. In the documents that we've got in the15 file, it looks like sometimes Rasier LLC will send16 out a 1099 Misc. to the driver, sometimes a 1099-K,17 which relates to basically credit card payments.18 What makes the difference between what sort of 109919 form Rasier LLC sends out?20 A. I'm sorry, I have no idea the answer to21 that question. I am aware that we send partners a22 1099 at the end of the year. I wasn't aware that23 there were different types.24 Q. Okay. Do you know if Rasier sends out more

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1 than one kind of 1099? 2 A. I don't. I don't know. 3 Q. All right. So now, in the application 4 process, at least the agreement says that there are 5 certain restrictions on what sort of vehicle will be 6 acceptable to the company. Is that correct? 7 A. Our products are marketed as, again, as I 8 kind of described, different tiers of quality. So 9 customers are expecting, for the uberX, they're10 expecting a vehicle ten years or newer with four11 doors. For a uberSELECT vehicle, they're expecting12 something that is more than that and of a nicer13 quality, as I described. Likewise, for uberBLACK,14 different expectations there.15 Q. So if somebody is a collector of vintage16 cars and, you know, wants to stand out from other17 drivers by showing up in a '57 Chevy or, I don't18 know, a 1965 Ford Fairlane or something, they19 couldn't drive for Uber is what it sounds like20 you're saying?21 A. No, they wouldn't be able to put that22 vehicle on the platform.23 Q. All right. Now, in the document, there is24 reference to an Uber driver having employees. What

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1 provisions, if any, are there relating to whether a 2 driver can have employees of his own or her own? 3 A. To the best of my understanding, there are 4 two ways that this might happen. With our uberBLACK 5 product, the system is kind of explicitly set up for 6 this. And so the partner may be an owner of a 7 limousine company and that partner does or does not 8 drive, and then they have, you know, separate 9 drivers for their vehicles. So that partner may own10 five vehicles but have ten drivers. There are all11 sorts of arrangements that can be like that.12 But uberX, it would kind of be -- you know,13 our system would be agnostic to it. It's always the14 driver that contracts with Rasier. But I could15 imagine a scenario where, you know, outside of that16 contract, a driver has a contract -- a personal17 contract with the owner of a vehicle and uses that18 vehicle for use on the Uber platform.19 Q. So there are provisions that basically say20 you can't, you know, lend or substitute, I guess,21 the app -- maybe I misunderstood this, but it sounds22 like one of the provisions is that you can't, you23 know, lend or substitute your access as a driver to24 somebody else. Is that correct?

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1 A. That's right. With uberX and -- all those 2 scenarios, each driver needs their own account. In 3 uberX or other P-to-P products, each driver must 4 sign an agreement with Rasier. 5 Q. Okay. And -- 6 A. But that doesn't mean they need to 7 necessarily own the vehicle. For example, you know, 8 as long as they're covered on the insurance for a 9 particular vehicle and the owner of that vehicle has10 approved their use of the vehicle, that's okay. But11 the driver must have signed that contract.12 Q. So I just want to make sure that I'm clear13 here. Let's say somebody who has been approved, who14 is an Uber driver, has access to the Uber app but15 for whatever reason decides that he himself doesn't16 want to drive but is willing to, like, be a17 passenger in the car and let his brother drive. So18 the actual phone is being handled by the approved19 guy, but the actual driving is being done by20 somebody else. Under the terms of the agreement,21 would that be acceptable?22 A. His brother would have to contract with us23 directly.24 Q. Okay. All right.




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1 A. For uberX, that is. Sorry. For uberBLACK, 2 as I described, the system is set up specifically 3 for that. 4 Q. Yes, I understand. Okay. So then at the 5 end of the ride, the documents seem to indicate that 6 the driver gets to rate the passenger and the 7 passenger gets to rate the driver. Is that correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And how do they do that?10 A. On each of their apps it will display five11 stars to select from, and they can click on the star12 rating that they feel was appropriate for that trip.13 Q. Okay. And if a driver is consistently14 getting, like, five stars, does he get a higher fee?15 A. No.16 Q. If he gets, like, three stars all the time,17 does he get a lower fee?18 A. No.19 Q. Is a driver who gets less than -- I was20 going to say stellar, but that maybe isn't the best21 word. If a driver gets below-average ratings, is he22 just kicked off the system?23 A. There is a certain point after a number of24 rides -- and the threshold goes up for different

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1 numbers of trips completed -- a partner would 2 receive a warning that their ratings are 3 consistently lower than expected; and they have a 4 certain time period -- or not time period, but 5 number of trips over which to show that they can 6 increase their ratings or at some point might be 7 removed from access to the platform. 8 Q. Okay. And so if a driver does get a 9 warning that the ratings are low, are there certain10 steps that a driver then has to take?11 A. There's no specific steps the driver needs12 to take, other than get higher ratings, I guess. If13 at some point they're deactivated because their14 ratings are too low, we do allow them to come back15 on the platform under some cases if they've16 completed an independent driver quality course. And17 if they show a certificate that they've kind of18 completed that course, then we'll allow them back on19 the platform for a certain number of trips to see if20 their rating has improved.21 Q. And is it just a matter of the number of22 stars -- what I'm thinking is this: Suppose riders23 in a particular area expect to have, you know, hot24 hors d'oeuvres served to them while they're riding

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1 and a particular driver decides that, you know, he 2 doesn't want to mess his car up like that, so he 3 doesn't serve hot hors d'oeuvres, so he gets 3s 4 instead of 5s. Is the reason for low rating taken 5 into account? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. Is there any particular uniform or 8 dress that a driver has to wear? 9 A. No.10 Q. Is there any kind of sign or marking that11 has to be displayed on the vehicle?12 A. Only as required by law in certain13 locations.14 Q. You said that you were on a trip through15 Uber and somebody had a Lyft sign in the window. So16 other competitors with Uber, do they require some17 sort of distinctive marking?18 A. I think that likely depends on the19 jurisdiction as well and the local laws. But I'm20 not familiar with their requirements, if any.21 Q. All right. So the driver for Uber has to22 designate that he's going to use one -- well, can he23 designate -- he might use one of three or four24 different kind of vehicles?

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1 A. Yes. A driver can do that. 2 Q. As long as the vehicles are up to the 3 standards that Uber approves? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And is there any requirement, in a 6 situation like that, that, you know, the driver use 7 a particular vehicle when he's driving for Uber? 8 A. No. As long as they are vehicles that are 9 eligible and have been properly added to the10 platform.11 Q. A driver's license is part of the12 application process. What sort of driver's license13 is required?14 A. That, again, depends on the jurisdiction.15 Some jurisdictions require a Florida driver's16 license specifically, such as Palm Beach County or17 Tallahassee. Other than that, any driver's license18 would be acceptable.19 Q. So a driver for Uber, for Rasier LLC,20 wouldn't have to have, like, a chauffeur's license21 or anything like that?22 A. No.23 Q. And so the driver also submits insurance24 information; is that right?




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1 A. Yes. A driver submits a copy of their 2 personal insurance. 3 Q. And so what sort of insurance coverage 4 requirements are necessary? 5 A. That, again, can depend on the 6 jurisdiction. In the State of Florida, various 7 levels of coverage are required, whether a vehicle 8 is being used for commercial activity or 9 noncommercial activity.10 In the case of Rasier here, what we have is11 the driver's personal coverage is verified that it12 exists and is in operation, and then we have a13 commercial insurance policy that applies for the14 periods of time in which most personal insurance15 policies are exempted from coverage.16 Q. And how is that paid for, that coverage?17 A. Our commercial insurance policy is -- it's18 bought and purchased by Uber, or by Rasier,19 actually. It is partially funded by a safety fee20 that is charged to the drivers. So that's a $1 fee21 per trip. That fee also partially funds our22 background check processes.23 Q. And so if a driver loses his license or24 loses insurance for whatever reason, how does Rasier

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1 find out about that, if it does? 2 A. We run annual background checks to include 3 the motor vehicle report. And so that would be how 4 we would see that they lost their license. 5 Otherwise we might be informed by a police 6 department or other means. 7 In terms of insurance expiring, we have the 8 insurance expiration date in our system, and so 9 we'll require that they upload new insurance when10 that is renewed.11 Q. So what if they don't?12 A. If they don't upload it?13 Q. Yes.14 A. Then, in that scenario, an account would be15 wait-listed until the person uploads a new document16 showing that they have personal insurance.17 Q. What other circumstances would there be18 when somebody would be on a wait list where they19 couldn't actually drive for Uber until, you know,20 something else happens?21 A. If any of the required documents were22 expired, driver's license, registration, et cetera,23 that might be a reason they're placed on the wait24 list until they upload a new document. If there was

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1 a particular incident, you know, between a passenger 2 and a driver or a driver and police that was, you 3 know, being investigated, that might be a reason why 4 they're removed from access to the platform for the 5 duration of that investigation. 6 Q. In the case of Mr. McGillis, the indication 7 in documents is that he was removed from access to 8 the app not long after there was an accident where 9 somebody ran into the door of his car. Is that10 correct?11 A. He was removed from access to the platform12 after he went to the home of the rider involved in13 that incident.14 Q. That's according to what source of15 information?16 A. I believe, but I would have to verify this,17 that the rider wrote in to say that. But it might18 have also been that Mr. McGillis told us that he did19 that. I'm not sure which.20 Q. When you say "rider," the person who ran21 into the door or the passenger --22 A. Sorry. The passenger who had exited the23 vehicle when the third party ran into the door.24 Q. And so, then, was Mr. McGillis's access to

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1 the application just put on hold, on a wait list, or 2 was he excluded from access to getting rides from 3 Uber at all, or what? 4 A. Once we had determined that it was likely 5 that he had gone to the rider's home, then we 6 decided to permanently remove his access to 7 receiving trips. He separately made a new account 8 after that without our knowledge and did have access 9 to the platform for a period of time.10 Q. And what happened then?11 A. At some point a customer service12 representative noticed that the two accounts were13 the same person and removed access to that account14 as well.15 Q. Okay. So the documents include information16 where Uber says to drivers, you know, "When you17 arrive at a passenger's location, you need to do it18 in a certain way." Is that correct, that there are19 statements like that from Uber?20 A. Are we talking about the documents in the21 very beginning of the exhibit?22 Q. Well, for example, in the summary judgment23 denial opinion, the judge reprints a little diagram24 that seems to indicate that drivers are told they




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1 should, you know, approach in this manner and so 2 forth. Are there actually communications from Uber 3 to drivers like that? 4 A. So, to the best of my knowledge, those 5 documents and similar documents have not been used 6 in the State of Florida. 7 Q. There's a document that's been submitted 8 that looks like it's a message from Uber about ways 9 to avoid getting in trouble if an Uber driver picks10 up a passenger at the Miami airport. Are there11 messages like that from Uber?12 A. There have been messages such as that one13 in cases where we believe that we're -- that the14 platform is not in violation of local laws and, you15 know, any citation officer might be interpreting it16 incorrectly. And that, of course, significantly17 disrupts the rider experience and the driver18 experience, and so we'll send out information on19 those happenings.20 Q. Okay. Well, now, if Uber thinks of21 itself -- some of the documents seem to say this:22 Uber thinks of itself simply as a software company.23 It makes connections or facilitates connections24 between people who want to ride and people who are

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1 willing to give a ride. 2 If there is something like that that's 3 going on -- but perhaps I misunderstand what Rasier 4 LLC's position is on that. Is that Rasier's 5 position as to what Uber is really doing? 6 A. Yes. That's essentially how we operate. 7 Q. But if that's the case, you see lots of 8 news stories about, you know, regulatory issues, 9 say, with Broward County or you've perhaps indicated10 that there might be some regulatory issues with the11 Miami airport. If all that Uber is doing is12 facilitating some sort of communication between13 customer and driver, why is Uber getting involved14 with what's actually happening on the ground?15 A. As I mentioned before -- and I think your16 characterization is correct, that in most of the17 cases, the regulations kind of don't speak to our18 position in this industry or our place in the role19 that we're playing; but nevertheless, they intend to20 sometimes change laws in order to encompass that.21 So you've seen various cities or counties22 pass regulations referring to transportation network23 companies and the actual transportation network,24 which is exactly what you describe, the network that

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1 connects the riders and the drivers. 2 If you take the case of the Miami airport, 3 it's because, again, when people are -- if an 4 officer feels, in my opinion incorrectly, that 5 something is occurring in violation of local 6 ordinances and they issue tickets, that disrupts our 7 network. And so that's why we would involve 8 ourselves in that case. 9 Q. By the way, is there some particular10 frequency or band at which information is sent11 between drivers and Uber?12 A. I'm not 100 percent sure what you're13 asking. I think you may be asking in terms of14 e-mails that we send to driver partners?15 Q. Well, actually I'm asking something --16 maybe I'm asking a little different. Maybe I'm just17 out of my depth scientifically here.18 When I'm buying a book from Amazon on my19 Kindle, they have a connection which they call20 Whispernet, whatever that connection is. So if I21 tell Amazon, you know, I want to buy such and such a22 book, it will be delivered. And sometimes they'll23 say, "Delivering the book by Whispernet," which24 suggests that Amazon has set up its own sort of

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1 private communication network throughout the 2 country. 3 Now, I may be misunderstanding what they've 4 actually done, but that's what, you know, it seems 5 to imply. So what I was asking is, is there some 6 sort of special, you know, private communication 7 network between, you know, Uber that might exist 8 throughout the country or most of the country and 9 the drivers when they're active and are on the10 system?11 A. I don't think in the exact manner you're12 describing. Both the rider app and the driver app13 connect to our servers and interact with our systems14 to log on and log off and, you know, exchange GPS15 information, for example, or exchange rider16 requests, for example.17 I am certainly not an expert in what Amazon18 does. My assumption is that Whispernet is just how19 they talk about using cellular technology to20 transfer books. And I would imagine that they are21 the same AT&T and Verizon networks that we use.22 Q. Okay. And I don't know either, but I23 wanted to ask just in case there was some special24 connection.




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1 Okay. So drivers are expected or at least 2 it's hoped that they will accept most of the 3 instances that Uber informs them that they're the 4 closest available to a customer who wants a ride, 5 correct? 6 A. That's right. They're certainly not 7 expected to make themselves available, but we're 8 asking them, when they do make themselves available, 9 that they're accepting the majority of those trips10 for reliability.11 Q. And are drivers required to log on, like,12 any particular number of days per week?13 A. No, they're not. I think, as you made14 reference to before, there may be a time period in15 the contract, but there's effectively nothing behind16 that. Their account might be temporarily changed to17 inactive and then could just be reactivated at their18 request.19 Q. If there a two drivers that are essentially20 equally close to a customer, a requester, how does21 the system decide which one gets the call first?22 A. I don't actually think that scenario is23 possible. When we're talking about distance, we're24 using GPS out to some degree of decimal point that I

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1 think it's highly unlikely that two cars that are 2 available are exactly the same distance. 3 Q. Okay. So within a few inches could make a 4 difference? 5 A. I'm certainly not a software nor GPS 6 engineer, but to the extent that the GPS reports 7 accuracy to that amount, then, yes. 8 Q. Okay. And so I just want to make sure. So 9 when a driver doesn't accept the request -- the time10 period expires and you haven't accepted the11 request -- is the driver charged anything?12 A. No.13 Q. Now, the documents refer to -- and in fact14 it's sort of a well-known feature, I guess, of Uber15 and maybe the others as well, that they engage in16 surge pricing. And if I understand the concept17 properly, in times when there's lots of demand for18 the services, the price goes up over what it would19 otherwise be if, you know, demand wasn't so high.20 So maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole concept of21 surge pricing, but is that basically something Uber22 does?23 A. That is correct. Just to clarify, it's not24 simply tied to demand; it's tied to the balance

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1 between demand and supply in the form of partners 2 who have made themselves available. So it's more 3 about when demand exceeds supply. 4 Q. Okay. And there's some sort of algorithm 5 that the Uber server, somewhere in San Francisco, 6 applies to determine that? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. So when there is surge pricing in effect, 9 the passenger is being charged more, correct?10 A. Yes.11 Q. Is the driver receiving more?12 A. Yes.13 Q. And the documents, some of them that I've14 seen, look like they're saying to drivers, you know,15 "You'll be guaranteed X number of dollars per hour16 under these circumstances." Are there messages that17 Uber sends out to drivers of that sort?18 A. From time to time we'll tell driver19 partners that a certain period of time or certain20 location we'll guarantee that they'll receive a21 certain amount of fares. And this is used to22 correct the information asymmetry that exists when23 we're reasonably confident that demand will be very24 high and drivers may not know that. And so this is

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1 kind of where how we put our money where our mouth 2 is to improve that and encourage them to do that. 3 Q. So why state it in terms of an hourly rate? 4 A. It's often the decision of terms simply 5 because that's the easiest to communicate. You 6 know, when you think about how busy it will be or 7 how much money you could make, I think those are 8 terms that people will often use. 9 There are times when I've seen experiments10 with other messaging saying, you know, "We'll11 guarantee that you'll make this much per trip," or12 "We'll guarantee that you'll receive this many13 trips," and other ways to communicate that as well.14 Q. So when you speak in terms of a guarantee15 per hour, what, it's just to make it easy for the16 driver to understand, or is there something else17 going on?18 A. I think that's the easiest way to explain19 statistically. Again, you know, we're not -- if20 we're doing this correctly, then we predicted that21 demand will be high enough that the drivers will22 make that much or make more money, and we actually23 end up not needing to pay anything out.24 Q. Now, if I'm driving home -- usually home, I




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1 don't see it in the morning -- but I'm driving home 2 on I-95, the Interstate down to South Florida, from 3 time to time I'll look over, I'll see a van passing 4 me by that will have -- you know, be all decorated 5 with things that say, you know, "Call so-and-so," or 6 "Download our app," like My Florida Car, 7 Incorporated, or there may be some others, that are 8 displaying some sort of a website. Are they doing 9 the same sort of thing as Uber, or are they doing10 something else?11 A. When you say "they," you mean the driver12 partners?13 Q. They -- those other companies that are, you14 know, painting their vehicles with advertising and15 saying, you know, "Give us a call for rides," or16 "Download our app.' Do you know anything about17 those?18 A. You're asking if those vehicles that you're19 describing are in the same business that we're in?20 Q. Yes.21 A. I mean, it would really depend on the22 particular business. You may be describing a taxi23 company that has simply painted things on the side24 of the cars that they own. In that case I would say

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1 that's not exactly the same as what we're doing. 2 But for all I know, Lyft or Sidecar, I guess -- I've 3 never seen that, so -- you've got have to give me a 4 more specific circumstance. 5 Q. Okay. Now, when you read in economics from 6 time to time -- not that I'm an expert in economics, 7 but I've read my share of, you know, essays and 8 books and so on -- one of the things they often say 9 about taxis is that, perhaps surprisingly, it's very10 often the case that taxi drivers will drive until11 they reach some, in effect, predetermined amount of12 earnings for the day, enough to pay the fee to the13 taxi company plus something, and then they'll stop.14 Do you know if Uber drivers do the same?15 A. There are so many driver partners, you16 know, over 10,000 in Florida alone. I would imagine17 any -- you could find a partner that does anything.18 Q. Okay. Could a taxi company just sign up19 for the Uber app?20 A. There are cities, not in Florida, where we21 do partner with taxi companies. And so, you know,22 say, Washington, D.C., New York City, Chicago, for23 example, you can request a taxi through the Uber24 app.

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1 Q. Why not in Florida? 2 A. We've just never made the business decision 3 in any particular market that that was a product 4 that we wanted at a particular time. 5 Q. And would that be a different sort of 6 product, like uberBLACK as opposed to uberX? 7 A. Exactly. So when you open up the app in a 8 situation where there's more than one product 9 available, which is the case in almost every market,10 you see a slider at the bottom where you select the11 product that you want to request, uberX, uberSELECT,12 uberBLACK, et cetera. In the cases that we have13 uberTAXI, it would be another slider next to14 those -- or another selection on that same slider,15 is what I mean.16 Q. All right. Does Uber reimburse drivers for17 any of their gas, oil, maintenance, anything like18 that?19 A. No.20 Q. Does Uber reimburse drivers for any of21 their insurance costs?22 A. No.23 Q. Is there anything further that you wanted24 to tell me about the issue as to whether drivers for

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1 Uber are employees or independent contractors? 2 MR. WILSON: I have some follow-up 3 questions -- this is Courtney Wilson -- if now is 4 good time. 5 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: That's fine. If 6 you want to jump in and begin your direct, that's 7 okay with me. 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. WILSON: 10 Q. Mr. Gore, do Uber drivers have any11 regularly set hours?12 A. No.13 Q. Are they at any time required to be logged14 on to the Uber application?15 A. No.16 Q. And when they make the choice to be logged17 on to the Uber application, are they free to accept18 or reject any ride requests?19 A. Yes.20 Q. And even after they accept a ride request,21 are they free to cancel that ride before picking up22 the passenger?23 A. Yes.24 Q. And are Uber drivers required to display




9

1 A. I believe the slogan is "Everyone's Private 2 Driver," but that is a slogan that's used. 3 Q. And Uber advertises to customers who are in 4 need of car service that they can use Uber in order 5 to obtain transportation to get them from one place 6 to another, correct? 7 A. I'm not aware that we have used the phrase 8 "car service," but I think generally what you're 9 referring to -- yes, we advertise that our platform10 is available for people who want to get from Point A11 to Point B.12 Q. Okay. And, Mr. Gore, how many Uber drivers13 are there in Florida?14 A. I don't know the exact number, but, as I15 stated before, it's over 10,000.16 Q. Okay. And none of these 10,000 drivers are17 currently in the Florida unemployment system because18 of Uber's classification that they're independent19 contractors; is that correct?20 A. Not as far as I know.21 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you a little bit22 about when a driver wants to get started with Uber.23 You answered some questions before about what a24 driver has to do.

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1 There are no special educational 2 requirements to become an Uber driver, correct? 3 A. By "educational requirements," you mean 4 certification or something like that? 5 Q. No. Do you have to have had any academic 6 educational background to become an Uber driver? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you need to have any previous experience 9 in car service to be an Uber driver?10 A. You have to have at least one year of11 having had a driver's license.12 Q. Okay. But do you need to have had13 experience as a limo driver?14 A. No.15 Q. Do you need to have had experience as a cab16 driver?17 A. No.18 Q. Do you need to have any particular prior19 work experience at all?20 A. No.21 Q. Basically you just need a driver's license,22 correct?23 A. Among other requirements, as I described.24 Q. Okay. And Uber advertises for drivers

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1 under the "Jobs" section of Craig's List, correct? 2 A. I know we advertise on Craig's List. I 3 don't know specifically what sections. 4 Q. I think you said before that, when a driver 5 starts driving for Uber, they have to pass a 6 background check, right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And you conduct these background checks, 9 you said, annually on the drivers?10 A. They're conducted annually by a third-party11 background check provider.12 Q. Uber hires that third-party background13 check provider to conduct the background checks,14 correct?15 A. Yes.16 Q. And I think in your answer to your17 questions before you were describing forms -- a18 document that you would send a driver if something19 came up in their background check that might20 disqualify them from being an Uber driver; is that21 right?22 A. Yes. If we choose not to contract with23 them, we'll send them a letter explaining that.24 Q. And you do that in order to comply with, I

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1 think you referred to, the FCRA, Federal -- is it 2 Fair Credit Reporting Act? 3 A. Yes. It's my understanding that any use of 4 a third-party background check requires -- if you 5 take any adverse action based on information 6 provided in that background check. 7 Q. Okay. And you do that because the FCRA 8 requires that employees who are disqualified from 9 employment due to something that comes up in their10 background check have to get certain notices,11 correct?12 A. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm certainly not13 familiar with the FCRA to that extent of detail,14 what in it requires us to do it or not.15 Q. Okay. But Uber does it -- I think you had16 testified before that, under the FCRA, you send17 these notices out. And so you do that because the18 FCRA requires that employees who are disqualified or19 potentially disqualified based on a background check20 have to get certain notices; isn't that right?21 A. You're asking me what in the FCRA requires22 that, and I don't know is the answer. To the best23 of my knowledge, it is simply that the FCRA requires24 them.




3

1 Q. Okay. And, Mr. Gore, would you agree Uber 2 has invested heavily in creating this platform to 3 provide transportation services to riders? 4 A. We've invested heavily in our platform, but 5 it provides transportation network services, 6 provides connection from the rider to the driver. 7 Q. Okay. And I have read in the press that 8 Uber has raised something on the order of $5 billion 9 in funding. So am I correct that Uber has raised10 something in that region to finance its operation?11 A. That sounds about right to me. I also only12 know what I read in the news.13 Q. Okay. All right. And so would you agree,14 then, that Uber has invested quite heavily, spending15 billions of dollars setting up this system by which16 rides can be provided by drivers to customers?17 A. I don't know if the actual investment in18 our platform has been in the billions, and, again,19 I'm not necessarily agreeing with your20 characterization of what the platform does, but we21 have invested heavily in this platform.22 Q. Okay. Potentially on the order of billions23 of dollars, correct?24 A. Potential.

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1 Q. Okay. Now, you talked a little bit about a 2 rating system that Uber uses whereby customers, at 3 the end of their ride, can rate drivers? 4 A. Yes. At the end of the ride, riders can 5 rate drivers and drivers can rate riders. 6 Q. Okay. And then the drivers get their 7 ratings -- their average ratings on a weekly basis; 8 is that right? 9 A. In most cases. There may be certain areas10 where that e-mail isn't sent out. A driver can log11 in at any time to see their average rating, though.12 Q. They can log in at any time, and they also13 get them sent it them periodically so they know what14 number Uber has for them as their rating, right?15 A. I believe it's sent periodically, but I16 don't think it's sent periodically in all cases is17 what I am saying. There may be some markets where18 it's not sent.19 Q. And the drivers have to keep up a certain20 minimum rating in order to continue driving for21 Uber, correct?22 A. Yes.23 Q. And they could be subject to being24 terminated, or I understand Uber's word is

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1 deactivated, if they don't keep up that minimum 2 rating, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And in Florida, in southern Florida, 5 has that minimum rating been somewhere around 4.6 on 6 a 5-point scale? 7 A. That sounds correct to me. It may have 8 changed at various points in times. 9 Q. Who decides what the minimum rating is?10 A. I guess the general manager of a market.11 So the general manager of South Florida.12 Q. So the general manager in South Florida13 could change that up or down as he saw fit?14 A. Yes. I don't know if in practice that he15 would, but he could.16 Q. Okay. Well, if you ever came to the point17 where you had too many drivers on the system and you18 wanted essentially to drop some of the drivers, you19 could raise the minimum rating, right?20 A. I think you could do that to do what you're21 describing. I don't think that we would, but...22 Q. And if you ever needed additional drivers,23 you could drop the minimum rating in or order to24 keep people driving for Uber, right?

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1 A. I agree that would have that effect. 2 Again, I don't think that that would be how we would 3 accomplish it. 4 Q. Okay. Do you know whether that's happened 5 in Florida? 6 A. I don't believe that it's happened in 7 Florida. 8 Q. Now, when the drivers get these e-mails 9 that have their ratings, do they also include10 comments that they've gotten from customers or11 feedback on what customers have been saying about12 them?13 A. It can include verbatim feedback that14 customers have left for them.15 Q. So Uber drivers will get these e-mails16 telling them what their ratings are and basically17 telling them how they've been performing over that18 week, right?19 A. It will tell them what feedback customers20 have left. It could have been about any time.21 Q. And so if customers make particular22 complaints about drivers, do those get passed on to23 the drivers so that they can fix those complaints --24 can fix whatever issue led to those complaints?




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1 A. It would depend on the nature of the 2 complaint. 3 Q. So that does happen from time to time? 4 A. It could happen, yes. 5 Q. Okay. Now, when I asked you about drivers 6 being deactivated because of low ratings, is there a 7 system by which drivers who fall under the minimum 8 rating, say it's 4.6, get automatically deactivated? 9 A. As I described before, there's a different10 threshold, and I'm not exactly familiar with each11 number, but after different amounts of trips. So,12 for example, say you have an average of 4.6 after13 five trips. Nothing is going to happen, right?14 There's one threshold where they'll be sent15 an e-mail telling them that their rating is falling16 below, you know, some threshold. And then I believe17 that would precede a follow-up e-mail at a different18 time that they've fallen below the 4.6 threshold19 that you're referring to and are being deactivated20 and offering them the opportunity, in most cases, to21 do a third-party driver quality course.22 Q. Who makes the decision about whether23 someone will be deactivated if their rating has24 fallen to a certain point?

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1 A. As I mentioned before, the general manager 2 will make the decision to set up the system, and 3 then once that decision is made, then it's 4 automated. 5 Q. Okay. But I thought you just said that if 6 the minimum is 4.6 and they fall to 4.5, they won't 7 automatically get deactivated, right? 8 A. No. What I was describing is that there 9 are a different number of trips that trigger these10 thresholds. So, again, I don't know the number off11 the top of my head, but I'm explaining that it's12 probably after 25 or 50 trips, right, that they'll13 look at the rating, send an e-mail about that14 rating. It won't happen after five trips, for15 example.16 Q. Okay. So you're saying they'll look at the17 rating and they'll send an e-mail. So the general18 manager or someone in the office is looking at it19 and deciding, Okay, it's time we'd better send this20 driver an e-mail. It's not automatically cut off?21 A. It is automated.22 Q. It is automated?23 A. Yes.24 Q. Okay. But I thought you just said that they

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1 look at the rating and they decide -- 2 A. It's a system -- the system, this automated 3 system I'm describing will look at the number of 4 trips and process those thresholds. That's what I 5 meant by "look at." 6 Q. Okay. So is there a system by which drivers 7 get e-mail warnings if their ratings are at risk of 8 being too low and getting them deactivated? 9 A. Yes. There would be that same system I was10 describing.11 Q. Okay. So they get warnings and then a12 certain amount of time to bring the rating back up?13 A. Certain number of trips, generally.14 Q. Okay. And now you said that if the driver15 does get deactivated based on a low rating, they16 can -- they have an option of taking a training17 class, which would make them eligible to be18 considered for reactivation; is that correct?19 A. There's a third-party course that's offered20 by various companies on driver quality.21 Q. Okay. So does Uber put the driver in touch22 with these potential courses they can take?23 A. I believe in some cases, in some markets.24 We may first tell them about one or more courses

0

1 that are available in the area. 2 Q. Okay. And so if the driver has been 3 deactivated for low ratings, takes a training class, 4 does that then make them eligible to be considered 5 to be reactivated? 6 A. In that circumstance, if they send us a 7 completion certificate from that third-party 8 training course, then they'll be reactivated for 9 some number of trips to evaluate whether their10 ratings have improved or not.11 Q. Okay. And are they automatically12 reactivated, or does the manager or someone in the13 office make a decision about whether to let them be14 reactivated?15 A. I don't believe anyone is making a16 decision. If they send in their certificate of17 completion, then they will be reactivated.18 Q. Okay. And then who decides what19 opportunity they get to try to bring their rating up20 to a sufficient standard after they've been21 reactivated?22 A. Then that would be part of the parameters23 of this kind of automated program that I set forth.24 So, again, the general manager might set the




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1 parameters for this automated program, the various 2 thresholds and rating thresholds, and then it would 3 be automated from that point on. 4 Q. Is every driver who is deactivated for low 5 ratings given an opportunity to get reactivated by 6 taking a training class or only some drivers? 7 A. Yes. Every driver, if that's the reason 8 they were deactivated. 9 Q. What if a driver gets deactivated, takes a10 training class, and then still has low ratings?11 They get deactivated again?12 A. After some threshold.13 Q. And then can they take a training class14 again to get reactivated again?15 A. No.16 Q. Okay. So they only get one opportunity to17 do that?18 A. Yes.19 Q. Do you know whether any drivers have ever20 been given yet another chance?21 A. I don't know.22 Q. We talked a little bit earlier about some23 of the things that Uber measures for its drivers,24 and one of them is acceptance rate. Does Uber keep

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1 track of what each driver's acceptance rate is? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And you agreed that drivers are 4 generally expected to accept at least 80 or 90 5 percent of the ride requests that they get while 6 they're logged in? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. And Uber discourages drivers from 9 cancelling ride requests; isn't that right?10 A. I don't think that that's really true.11 Q. Well, that doesn't lead to a good customer12 experience, does it, if they request a driver, the13 driver shows up and then decides they don't want to14 take them or cancels them? That's not good for15 Uber, right?16 A. Generally cancellations would have kind of17 one of the reasons we talked about behind them. So18 I think it's more of an individualized decision on a19 driver's behalf.20 Q. But Uber would prefer that drivers are not21 cancelling customers, right?22 A. It depends -- it would depend on the23 circumstance. If I'm a customer and a driver is24 stuck in traffic and isn't going to reach me,

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1 sometimes they'll cancel out of courtesy. They'll 2 call me and let me know they're cancelling. I don't 3 think it's really possible to characterize a 4 generalized cancellation preference. 5 Q. Okay. Well, what if a driver shows up and 6 finds out that the customer is going somewhere, like 7 the Hearing Officer -- the driver thinks it's a bad 8 neighborhood and would prefer not to take the 9 passenger there? Does --10 A. That's the driver's prerogative. I'm sorry11 for speaking over you. Your question?12 Q. Does Uber discourage drivers from13 cancelling rides because they don't want to take a14 rider to a specific neighborhood?15 A. Not that I'm aware of.16 Q. So it's possible, then, that Uber drivers17 may not service certain neighborhoods if the drivers18 don't feel comfortable going into them?19 A. That's possible.20 Q. And also there was --21 A. But then there will be another driver who22 will do it.23 Q. Okay. But there may be neighborhoods where24 it's hard to get a driver who wants to go into them,

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1 right? 2 A. I've never encountered that hypothetical 3 that you're describing, but it's certainly possible. 4 Q. Okay. And it's not good for Uber if there 5 are neighborhoods that drivers are refusing to go 6 into, right, because doesn't that restrict the 7 service area able to provide transportation services 8 to passengers for? 9 A. I agree it wouldn't be good. In practice,10 the situation you're describing doesn't occur. Part11 of the safety features that are inherent to our12 platform that makes it attractive for our drivers to13 partner with us is that they're not carrying cash;14 the credit card is automatically charged. And so in15 general, you know, the idiosyncrasies of the Uber16 platform make partners feel comfortable going places17 that they might not otherwise feel comfortable.18 Q. Okay. You talked a little before -- or you19 were asked some questions about the airport. I20 understand Uber has had some issues with the21 authorities with drivers going to Miami Airport?22 A. Can you describe what you mean by "issues23 with the authorities."24 Q. Yes. Well, Uber drivers have not been




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1 particularly welcome at the Miami Airport; is that 2 right? 3 A. I mean, we have had conversations with the 4 airport that I think have been quite cordial. There 5 are officers who have felt that Uber partners are in 6 violation of ordinances and have issued citations, 7 as I'm sure you're alluding to. So it depends on 8 the circumstance. 9 Q. Okay. And when Uber drivers have been10 issued citations at Miami Airport, Uber has paid for11 those tickets; is that right?12 A. In many cases we've offered to reimburse13 them as a courtesy, or appeal them as a courtesy.14 Q. Okay. And you've given -- Uber has given15 drivers advice about how to handle the airport and16 how to stay off the radar screen at the airport,17 right?18 A. Yes. You could say that.19 Q. And you've instructed drivers, for20 instance, not to have your -- not to have their21 phone and mounts up on their windshield when they're22 at the airport, right?23 A. I don't think we've instructed them to do24 that, but in the e-mail, we've suggested that that

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1 might lead to a smoother experience. 2 Q. And you've also suggested that they ask the 3 passenger to ride in the front seat with them so 4 they don't look like it's an Uber ride, right? 5 A. That's been a past suggestion. 6 Q. Okay. And then going back to my question 7 before, I mean, Uber would prefer that drivers not 8 cancel trips to the airport, right, because that 9 would reduce Uber's services in providing10 transportation for passengers to the airport, right?11 A. Again, if a driver prefers not to go to the12 airport, that's certainly their prerogative, and a13 passenger could simply request another driver.14 Q. But if a passenger has to request another15 driver because a driver has accepted the ride but16 then cancelled, then that passenger is going to17 experience a delay in getting a car, right?18 A. They would, yes.19 Q. And that's not good for the Uber20 experience, right?21 A. It's not ideal, but it's allowable.22 Q. So would you agree that Uber would prefer23 that drivers don't do that, they don't cancel trips24 that customers request to the airport?

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1 A. Again, you know, we'd prefer that all 2 parties involved have the smoothest experience 3 possible, but it's within their right to do so. 4 Q. Okay. Now, as you described before, in 5 order to become an Uber driver, a driver has to go 6 through an application process whereby they go 7 through a background check, show their driver's 8 license, et cetera, correct? 9 A. I referred to it more as a sign-up process,10 but, yes, they upload various partner information11 and consent to us performing a background check.12 Q. Okay. And once a driver goes through that13 process, they get their own unique ID number or14 login credentials, correct?15 A. Yes.16 Q. Can a driver have somebody else drive under17 their ID or login credentials?18 A. Again, as we talked about earlier, with19 uberBLACK, a partner can have various drivers on20 their account. With the peer-to-peer products of21 uberX, each driver must have their own credentials.22 Q. Okay. And even with uberBLACK, where a23 driver could have other drivers under their account,24 every driver under the account still has to go

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1 through the process of showing their license and 2 submitting to the background check, right? 3 A. Yes, that's correct. 4 Q. And every driver who drives for Uber has to 5 sign a contract with Uber or agree to a contract 6 electronically with Uber, correct? 7 A. I don't know that the drivers who drive 8 under a specific partner for uberBLACK have their 9 own contract with Uber, but in the case of uberX,10 yes.11 Q. Okay. So in the case of uberX at least,12 you're saying that every driver has to have their13 own contract, has to have their own ID number,14 right?15 A. Yes.16 Q. Okay. And it would be against Uber's rules17 for somebody to let somebody else drive under their18 password and login information, correct?19 A. That's correct.20 Q. Okay. And that's to ensure that everyone21 who is driving for Uber is aware of their22 obligations and requirements, correct?23 A. That's to ensure that the person who the24 passenger expects is coming to pick them up is the




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1 person that they say they are and that they've had 2 the background checks that we've told them have been 3 conducted. 4 Q. Okay. So if, let's just say, an uberX 5 driver wanted to hire another uberX driver as an 6 employee, the other driver would still have to go 7 through this process of submitting to the background 8 check, showing their license, and agreeing to the 9 agreement, correct?10 A. That's correct, under our current set-up.11 Q. Okay. Now, Uber sets the rates that12 passengers pay for the car service, correct?13 A. Yes.14 Q. And it's a formula based on both time and15 distance, right?16 A. Correct. Generally speaking. There could17 be cases where it's a flat fee per one location to18 another.19 Q. Okay. But usually it's a formula based on20 time and distance?21 A. Usually, yes.22 Q. And you talked before about surge pricing.23 From time to time, Uber multiplies the rate by some24 factor when demand is high, and that's called surge

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1 pricing, right? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And it's Uber who sets the surge price, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. Our algorithm. 6 Q. The drivers don't set the rates; it's Uber 7 who sets the rates, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And it's Uber that sets the percentage10 commission that Uber takes from the fares, right?11 A. Well, that's in the contract between Uber12 and the driver. So, I mean, it's between them. They13 could negotiate a different one.14 Q. Okay. Well, Uber generally takes 2015 percent from uberX, from every uberX fare; is that16 right?17 A. That's our current standard service fee in18 most areas.19 Q. Okay. But then for some Uber services Uber20 takes a higher amount, like 28 percent; is that21 right?22 A. There are other fees for different23 products, yes.24 Q. Okay. But drivers can't negotiate those

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1 commissions; those are decided by Uber, right? 2 A. They can. There's nothing that I know of 3 that would prevent a driver from negotiating with us 4 to sign a different contract. 5 Q. Are you aware of any Uber drivers that have 6 negotiated and obtained Uber taking a different 7 percent from those default percentages? 8 A. No, I'm not. But it's possible. 9 Q. And the drivers, I think as you said10 before, they get paid weekly, right?11 A. In most cases, payment is direct deposited,12 accumulating all their fares, minus service fees,13 weekly. I believe there are some products in other14 cities, not in Florida, where there might be a15 different frequency.16 Q. Okay. And as we talked about also, from17 time to time, Uber also offers hourly guaranteed18 rates to drivers, right?19 A. From time to time we'll offer guarantees of20 fares, but they characterize it as we're21 guaranteeing that they'll receive that many fares22 during that time period.23 Q. But the way you express it is that they'll24 get a certain hourly rate, like $16 per hour or $20

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1 per hour, right? 2 A. A minimum gross -- it actually could be 3 either. It could be at times expressed as a gross 4 fare received, and so that would be -- less our fee. 5 At times it could be expressed as a net fare 6 received after our fee. 7 Q. But the way it's advertised to drivers is 8 generally as a guaranteed hourly rate, right? 9 A. I think it's advertised generally as a10 guaranteed hourly minimum fare.11 Q. Now, if a customer has an issue with a12 driver or a driver's performance, they'll contact13 Uber to let Uber know, right?14 A. Yes. They can write into our customer15 score team.16 Q. And one of the things a customer can do is17 ask for a refund if they're not satisfied with a18 ride, right?19 A. They can.20 Q. And I believe there was some question21 regarding Mr. McGillis. That includes -- if a22 customer thinks that the driver didn't take the most23 efficient route, the customer can complain, and then24 Uber can decide to refund the customer because the




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1 driver didn't take the most efficient route, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Can a customer request a particular Uber 4 driver? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. And drivers are not allowed to 7 solicit Uber customers to drive them personally on 8 their own time without Uber getting a cut, right? 9 A. Not during the trip.10 Q. Okay. And Uber drivers are also prohibited11 from soliciting customers to take rides through a12 competitor, right?13 A. Again, not while the customer is on a trip.14 Q. Okay. And while an Uber driver is driving15 for Uber, they're not supposed to display any16 insignia or paraphernalia for another company, for a17 competitor company; isn't that right?18 A. Again, they could have insignia of other19 companies when they're online and available on the20 platform. I would imagine when they're actually21 conducting an Uber trip, then they should take that22 down.23 Q. But that would be in violation of the24 contract if they did, because -- and I can pull it

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1 out, but it says, in Mr. McGillis's contract, that 2 while a driver is signed into Uber, "You shall not 3 display on your vehicle any removable insignia 4 provided by third-party transportation service 5 providers, lead generation providers or similar." 6 Are you aware of that? 7 A. I'm not aware of that specific phrase that 8 you read, but, again, my understanding would be that 9 it would refer to the time when they're on a trip.10 Q. Okay. Well, the contract speaks for itself11 on that point.12 So Uber drivers are -- once a driver has13 signed up, gone through the background check, you14 know, shown their license and gotten their15 credentials to drive, they're free to drive for Uber16 as long as they want, unless they get deactivated,17 right?18 A. Yes.19 Q. So they're not signed up for a particular20 discrete amount of time; it's open ended until one21 side or the other decides to end the relationship,22 right?23 A. That's right.24 Q. Okay. And I think you said before, the

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1 reason why -- so Mr. McGillis was deactivated by 2 Uber, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the reason for that, you said, was 5 because he had gone to a passenger home; is that 6 right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Had he been told that he's not allowed to 9 go to a passenger home?10 A. I don't know.11 Q. Okay. Do you know whether he got any12 warning that he was not supposed to go to a13 passenger home?14 A. No, I don't know.15 Q. Okay. And after he was deactivated, he was16 reactivated for some period of time, but then once17 someone at Uber figured out that it was the same18 person who had been deactivated, he got deactivated19 again, right?20 A. That's correct.21 Q. Okay. If you'll just give me a moment, I22 may be just about done. (Pause)23 Okay. So, Mr. Gore, do you have the24 exhibits in front of you that we submitted for this

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1 hearing for Mr. McGillis? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Okay. Could you turn to Exhibit 4. 4 A. I apologize, my documents here aren't 5 broken out by number. Is this the one that says at 6 the top, "Page 3:13-CV," et cetera? 7 Q. Yes. It says "Uber" with a big "U" on the 8 left, and it has a line, and over the line it says, 9 "Everyone's Private Driver."10 A. Yes.11 Q. Okay. So do you recognize this as some12 marketing materials for Uber, this document, Exhibit13 No. 4?14 A. I recognize this logo as one that was used15 by Uber until 2011, approximately. So I don't16 recognize this document in particular in any way,17 but that is an old logo of our company.18 Q. Okay. The document -- I mean, it19 describes -- well, it describes Uber, under20 "Request" on the first page, as an "on-demand car21 service." Do you see that?22 A. I do see that.23 Q. So Uber has described itself as an24 "on-demand car service," right?




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1 A. It would appear that way. Again, I don't 2 recognize this as anything that's ever been used in 3 the state of Florida or in recent years. 4 Q. Okay. Well, if you just look through the 5 document, it goes through and describes certain 6 qualities that Uber expects of its drivers and 7 advertises to the public they can expect from Uber 8 drivers, including professionalism, efficient trip 9 and vehicle quality. Do you see that generally,10 those categories?11 A. I do see that.12 Q. Would you agree that those are -- that is13 how Uber advertises to the public what it can expect14 from Uber drivers and what it expects of Uber15 drivers?16 A. Not exactly. I think this document refers17 to a time when Uber was only uberBLACK. And so it's18 probably referring more to uberBLACK experience and,19 again, at a particular time in California, I would20 imagine.21 Q. Okay. Well, even now in Florida, though,22 Uber expects its drivers to behave professionally,23 right?24 A. To the extent that the customer is

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1 expecting a professional experience. But that's 2 really the customer's definition, the rider's 3 definition of professional. 4 I'm not aware of any instructions or any 5 documents like this in Florida that tell drivers, 6 you know, that they must do this and that and the 7 other thing that are described in this document. 8 Q. Okay. Okay. But you agree generally the 9 reason for the rating system is to ensure a certain10 level of professionalism among drivers, right?11 A. No. I think the reason for the rating12 system is to know if customers are getting the13 experience that they have expected. And that is a14 subjective experience, which is why customers may15 rate differently based on their subjective16 experience.17 Q. Okay. I think I'm done for now, Mr. Gore.18 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Mr. Hearing officer,19 we're probably going to need a lunch break at some20 point. What are your thoughts about how we should21 proceed?22 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: We still have23 cross-examination from the Department of Revenue.24 What I was thinking was that if we can conclude Mr.

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1 Gore's testimony, then we could take a break before 2 we get to Mr. McGillis's testimony. But, you know, 3 if that's not practical for some reason, then, you 4 know, we could perhaps take a break now. 5 Ms. Taylor, let me ask you, do you have 6 some idea of how long your cross-examination of Mr. 7 Gore is likely to take? 8 MS. TAYLOR: I have a minimum of about -- 9 I'd say about ten questions, if that.10 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Okay.11 MS. TAYLOR: I'm fine with a break, if12 y'all want one. It's strictly up to you guys.13 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right.14 Well -- all right. So unless there's some15 particular urgency -- I mean, if somebody is16 diabetic or something like that, you need to eat17 right away, then fine. We've stopped; we could take18 a break.19 If you can hold out for a little while20 longer, then let's finish up Mr. Gore's testimony,21 and then we'll take a break. How is that?22 MR. WILSON: That's fine.23 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: I think that's good on24 our end.

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1 MS. TAYLOR: I'm fine with that. 2 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Okay. 3 So, Ms. Taylor, do you have questions for 4 Mr. Gore? 5 MS. TAYLOR: Yes. Just a couple. 6 CROSS EXAMINATION 7 BY MS. TAYLOR: 8 Q. Mr. Gore, would you consider the fact that 9 customers are picked up and drove around Florida an10 integral part of the business for Uber?11 A. Are you saying if customers were not picked12 up and driven around Florida, would we have a13 business?14 Q. Yes.15 A. Our business model is predicated on16 receiving license fees from partners who complete17 trips. If they don't complete trips, we won't18 receive those fees, that's correct.19 Q. So therefore the integral part is that Uber20 receives funding due to completed trips by drivers?21 A. I'm sorry. Could you say that again. It22 was a little muffled.23 Q. As an integral part of Uber's experience,24 they obtain money due to persons being delivered




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1 driver, of course, could accept that cash. 2 Q. I understand the terms or agreements to be 3 different there. In the terms and agreements it 4 was -- 20 percent of the tip is said to go back to 5 the driver, but they were not supposed to take tips, 6 I do believe. Would you like me to look that up? 7 A. Yes, what you're describing. 8 Q. On June 21, 2014 -- it's under the terms, 9 the third -- it's called "Terms for the Service10 Agreement," Page 4, and it says, "You acknowledge11 that there is no tipping for any transportation12 services that you provide pursuant to the receipt of13 a request. You understand and agree that, for14 mutual benefit of the parties, the Company may15 endeavor to attract new users, fee for service, of16 the software and to increase existing users' use of17 the service of the software through advertising and18 marketing to the effect that tipping is voluntary,19 not required, and/or included in a service fee."20 Do you understand? So that's how the21 marketing -- "to the effect that there is no need to22 leave a tip. It is ultimately to increase the23 number of requests you receive through the service24 software."

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1 A. That's right. So this paragraph says no 2 tip is required and that we'll advertise as such. 3 But I don't understand this paragraph to prevent a 4 driver from accepting a tip at all. I understand 5 this first sentence that there is no tipping means 6 there is no tipping through our application. 7 MS. TAYLOR: Could I have one moment, 8 please? 9 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right.10 (Pause)11 BY MS. TAYLOR: 12 Q. If Uber refunds the customer, is there any13 loss to the driver?14 A. That would depend on the circumstance.15 Q. And Uber would control the circumstances?16 A. Well, by circumstance, it would depend on17 the external circumstances. So, no.18 Q. Could you be more specific with that,19 please.20 A. Well, for example, if a customer -- if a21 rider says, "I never took this trip," then that's22 one circumstance. We didn't control that23 circumstance. The refund will be given and also24 applied to the driver's account.

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1 You know, there may be a situation where we 2 would like to appease a rider and refund money 3 without applying that to the driver's account. In 4 that case, you know, we'll just kind of refund it to 5 the rider as a courtesy, and the driver wouldn't 6 receive less. 7 But generally, I think in a situation where 8 there's been an actual cause for a refund, then the 9 driver will not receive -- will receive zero or10 whatever the refunded amount is less from their11 income.12 Q. Could you tell me what type of training the13 drivers receive.14 A. There is no required training.15 Q. How can they ensure the comfort of the16 riders?17 A. Who is "they"?18 Q. The drivers and Uber. How can you ensure19 the comfort to the riders?20 A. I mean, Uber can't ensure the comfort of21 the rider. The driver can ensure the comfort of the22 rider by taking whatever steps a driver can take or23 decide to take, feels necessary to take.24 Q. Are they given suggestions on what to say

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1 to the client? For example, "Do you want air 2 conditioning or not?" or "Do you prefer country 3 music or rock and roll or heavy metal?" things of 4 that nature, to make the customer more at peace in 5 riding in a stranger's automobile? 6 A. I don't think all drivers are given such 7 suggestions. If they ask for such suggestions or -- 8 they may look through our Frequently Asked Questions 9 on our website. There may be suggestions like that.10 Q. Is anyone to provide something to drink11 and/or a snack if they want it?12 A. Again, there are places -- there may be a13 website or if a driver asks, we might provide14 answers to the effect that "We have heard from15 customers that these are the kinds of things that16 create a good experience." So, you know, these are17 suggestions. You can take them or leave them.18 Q. In going online to decide if an individual19 wants to be a driver or obtain the software from20 Uber, it talks about procedures and policies by21 Uber. Could you explain those to us a little more22 specifically, and/or the code of conduct, which is23 also referenced on the website.24 A. I'm not familiar with these in their




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1 Mr. McGillis. So maybe just a couple more moments. 2 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: We'll wait a few 3 more moments certainly, because he's going to be the 4 one we're going to get testimony next from. So we 5 certainly want to wait for him. 6 MR. WARMAN: Thank you. 7 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Ms. Taylor, are 8 you on the line? 9 MS. TAYLOR: Yes, sir.10 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Let's just wait11 for a few moments. And, Mr. Warman, can you tell me12 when Mr. McGillis shows up.13 MR. WARMAN: Will do. Thank you.14 (Pause)15 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: And we've been on16 a break for a little bit. It is now 2:16, p.m., and17 we're waiting on a couple of folks to get back on18 the line before we can get started with taking19 further testimony. Hopefully we've got the20 observer, Mr. Vasquez, on the line from the Miami21 Herald. Mr. Vasquez, are you there? (No response)22 Of course sometimes when people are23 listening in to a hearing like this, they put their24 phones on mute, they forget about it. So I'm not

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1 hearing anything at all. 2 Okay. 2:18 by my clock. A couple of 3 minutes went by awfully fast. I'm just waiting for 4 a couple of folks to get back on the line, and then 5 we'll go ahead. 6 MR. WARMAN: All right. This is Noah and 7 Michael, and with us we have Mr. McGillis. 8 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right. That's 9 great.10 Mr. McGillis, keep in mind you are still11 under oath.12 I just want to double check on one of the13 observers. Mr. Vasquez, are you there? (No14 response)15 What I'm going to do is wait just a little16 bit longer, just another minute or so, just in case17 there was some traffic or something like that that18 might just delay things. I gave him the number, I19 think, for how to contact our office. So that20 shouldn't be a problem.21 We are showing him still connected, so if22 Mr. Vasquez is listening in and (unclear), that's23 perfectly okay too. But we'll give it a few more24 seconds before we go forward with anything further.

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1 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Mr. Houser, excuse me. 2 Who is Mr. Vasquez? 3 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: He is an observer. 4 He is a reporter, I guess, a reporter with the Miami 5 Herald. 6 MR. WILSON: And who is Ms. Ampel with? 7 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: With the Daily 8 Business Review, is the information I've got. 9 MR. WILSON: Thank you.10 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right. Well,11 let's see. I'm showing it's 2:20 p.m., almost --12 about 30 seconds after 2:20. So, Mr. Vasquez? (No13 response)14 It doesn't look like we're getting any15 response. I'm wondering -- it does show we're still16 connected. When we've gotten disconnected, normally17 the little window shows disconnected.18 Well, all right. We're going to go forward19 with this hearing. Hopefully it's not going to be a20 big problem. All right. So 2:21 p.m.21 Mr. McGillis, we'll be getting your22 testimony now. Keep in mind, as I said, you're23 still under oath.24

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1 DARRIN McGILLIS, Previously Sworn 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: 4 Q. So, Mr. McGillis, you were associated with 5 this company, Rasier LLC, from when to when? 6 A. I made the application online for the 7 background check in the middle of October, and I was 8 approved, I want to say, maybe a week later. So 9 probably -- I started working, though, on November10 1st, exactly on November 1st.11 Q. November 1st of what year?12 A. Of 2014.13 Q. And what was your last day in association14 with this company?15 A. I left, it was, I believe, either March16 30th or 31st.17 Q. Okay.18 A. I think it was March 30th, to be exact.19 Q. Okay. That's 2015, correct?20 A. And that would have been 2015, yes, sir.21 Q. I just wanted to make sure. Sometimes you22 ask a silly question like that and you get an answer23 that you don't expect. So I do need to ask.24 Okay. And, Mr. McGillis, the document that




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1 we've got in the file, that contract or terms of 2 service, terms of agreement that is among the 3 documents more than one place, did you sign an 4 agreement like that with Rasier LLC? 5 A. I recall not signing any agreement with 6 Uber other than doing the background check that I 7 agreed to and gave them information for that. 8 Q. Okay. Were you sent a document like the one 9 we've been talking about, the agreement, sent a10 document to review?11 A. Was I sent a document, like, via e-mail or12 something?13 Q. Yes. Either in the mail or by e-mail or14 some other means?15 A. I never got a document communication with16 terms and conditions.17 Q. And specifically, just to make sure, the18 document that I'm talking about is called "Rasier19 Software Sublicense and Online Services Agreement."20 Were you sent that document by the company at some21 point?22 A. I never received that document.23 Q. And so then what sort of services were you24 providing between November 1, 2014, and March 30,

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1 2015? 2 A. Well, from November, when I started, I had 3 a car I had already previously purchased that had 4 nothing to do with Uber, and I signed up with that 5 car. That was a four-door vehicle, 2014 Mitsubishi 6 Mirage. And that put me on the uberX network that 7 they have. 8 I drove on that network until they cut the 9 rate of pay for the drivers, I believe around10 January 9th, by 20 percent across the board, they11 said because of all the snow and everything that was12 happening and the wintertime -- this was an e-mail.13 And so I went looking to upgrade to the XL model to14 get double money instead of complaining about the15 cut pay.16 Q. Did you in fact do that?17 A. I did do that. At the end of January, I18 purchased an SUV, which brought me into the19 seven-seater model of the uberXL and started driving20 on the XL platform, which gave me double pay.21 Q. And how did you learn about being able to22 drive for Uber in the first place?23 A. My first recollection was something on the24 news, where they were talking about how Uber is --

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1 Uber and Lyft, both of them, were around and how it 2 worked and that people could sign up. 3 There was and there still is a lot of media 4 surrounding the fact that it's illegal and that 5 they're operating outside the regulations of the 6 county government. 7 Q. So you decided to find out about somebody 8 that you thought was illegal? 9 A. Well, that's why -- I learned about the10 name, and then I went on their website and read11 about it, and the wording and everything was that it12 wasn't illegal.13 Q. So you went to the website, and then what14 did you do to apply?15 A. On the main page they have "Sign up to be a16 driver." And I got that and filled out all the17 information that they required.18 Q. What sort of information were they19 requiring from you?20 A. Pretty much everything you put on a credit21 report: your name, Social Security number, your22 date of birth, where you live, and if you have any23 convictions for criminal activity or record. They24 also had a box you could click to request a copy of

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1 the background check, if you wanted it after it was 2 completed. I did that, and then they sent you a 3 copy when everything was done. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. And then at some point after you were 6 approved, they sent you a welcome e-mail with links 7 to videos that you had to watch before you could get 8 the app, if I remember correctly. 9 I remember that unless you watched the10 video training -- which taught you how to pick up11 passengers, how to get higher ratings by having12 water and bubble gum, kind of how to dress -- all13 the things that they wanted you to know you had to14 watch on the website prior to moving on to the next15 step of then getting the app texted to you where you16 could actually work for Uber.17 Q. Okay. And so is that what you did?18 A. I did do that.19 Q. Okay. And then getting the app, what does20 that consist of?21 A. It was a download that was -- it was a link22 sent to you that went -- I have an Apple phone. So23 I went into the iTunes store, and then you would24 just load it like any other app, your bank or




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1 anything like that. And it would present itself on 2 your phone as an app -- as an option to choose on 3 your phone if you chose to. 4 Q. So in order to bring up the Uber app, you 5 just touch the icon on the screen? 6 A. Yes. Just like any other app. 7 Q. And when you do that, what comes up? 8 A. Initially, when I first started, what 9 popped up was a place to put your user name that you10 had created previously and a password that you had11 created previously. You have to input that.12 And then the app or the full app would open13 up, which is basically a map of where you are,14 showed where you are, pinpointed where you are in15 the surrounding area, which you could enlarge or16 decrease if you wanted to see more of South Florida17 or less. And pretty much that's what you see at18 first.19 Q. And would it show where other Uber drivers20 are?21 A. On this particular app, no. If you had a22 passenger app, which is separate -- they separate23 their apps for passengers. It's a different app24 than for drivers. It's a different app. So if you

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1 had a passenger app, you could see where other Uber 2 drivers are. 3 But you would have to have that, which 4 anybody can get. Not anybody can get the driver 5 app. That driver app has to be specifically sent by 6 Uber after you've been approved and after you've 7 gone through the training with the videos. 8 Q. And did you get that passenger app as well? 9 A. Yes -- no, I didn't, because I never wanted10 to be a passenger, so I never sought out being a11 passenger. I never was a passenger. But you could12 get it, if you wanted to, through iTunes. Anybody13 could today or yesterday, and it's free.14 Q. And at what point, at what stage did you15 create a user name and a password?16 A. That would have been after you watched the17 videos that they sent you, after you were approved.18 You had to watch the videos and, I believe, after19 that click to the next step. In order to get to the20 next step, you had to mandatory watch the videos,21 and then they would create your information and an22 account, per se.23 Q. And how long were these videos?24 A. I believe there were three or four videos,

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1 maybe, about -- if I remember correctly, maybe about 2 ten minutes apiece. 3 Q. Okay. Was there any sort of test or 4 anything like that that you had to take after you 5 watched the videos? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. And did you have to, you know, input 8 some sort of, like, certification that you had 9 watched the videos?10 A. No. It would know -- if the video didn't11 complete, you could not click the Next button.12 Q. All right.13 A. So if you were half through and tried to14 click the Next button, it wasn't available to click.15 The video actually had to complete all the way to16 the end. Now, whether you sat there and watched it17 or walked away is a different story.18 Q. Well, so did you try to hurry up the19 process and click to say you completed before it20 actually ran through?21 A. Out of curiosity I did, yes.22 Q. Okay. And so you had to wait until the23 whole video played through. Did you actually watch24 the videos, or did you in fact walk away and get

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1 coffee and just wait until it was done? 2 A. Well, I was very nervous about the whole 3 process because of picking up strangers on the 4 street. So I watched to kind of learn what to do 5 and what not to do. It took me about a week before 6 I decided to get on the road, and the first day was 7 pretty nerve-racking. 8 Q. So after you watched the videos, did that 9 calm some of your fears?10 A. It did, because then I had an understanding11 of what was transpiring, that it was cashless, the12 whole procedure of how Uber operates. I knew that13 it was to feel safe. I would be dealing with people14 with credit cards, not some random person on the15 street who could, you know, rob me or they'll not16 know who I am. I would know who they are.17 Q. Okay. So those were two significant factors18 in your decision to go ahead, that you weren't going19 to be carrying a large amount of cash from fares and20 people who, I guess, got fares at least had some21 sort of means, because they needed to have a credit22 card. At least if I've understood you correctly,23 those were factors in your decision to go ahead; is24 that right?




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1 it mostly -- I mean, you were down in Miami, so I 2 could imagine maybe it was mostly locals or maybe it 3 was mostly tourists or maybe it was a mix of 4 everybody. What was it for you? 5 A. From the first two months, it was a lot of 6 tourists and a lot of locals, Brickell, Miami Beach 7 people. The last month, last two months, I saw 8 pickups in West Kendall, Cutler Bay, expanding 9 outside of the tourist areas as people were getting10 to know the product.11 Q. Okay. But in those last two months, you12 were actually, what, driving a fairly upscale SUV;13 is that right?14 A. Yes, that is correct.15 Q. Okay. So were the trips longer when you16 were with the uberXL as opposed to just regular17 uberX?18 A. You would get groups of people going to the19 beach, groups of people going out to the clubs.20 It's 95 cents per mile on the uberX and $1.95 a mile21 under uberXL. So it was double the money.22 When I upgraded, I made a conscious23 decision, based on the type of money I was making,24 because in January Uber cut the fares by 20 percent

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1 on the X. So it used to be, I think, $1.20. They 2 dropped it down to 95 cents a mile. 3 So I had to figure something out, because I 4 invested in this company, per se, with my time and 5 my money. 6 Q. Now, some of the documents that we were 7 sent were documents that indicated that, you know, 8 Uber would at least refer you, you know, to some 9 place where you can find a vehicle, maybe get10 financing on good terms. So when you upgraded your11 vehicle to the SUV, did you take advantage of any of12 those offers?13 A. No, I didn't.14 Q. Oh, okay. All right. So you arranged for15 the purchase of the vehicle on your own; is that it?16 A. Yes, I did.17 Q. I don't want to inquire too much about18 stuff that isn't really related to this case. So19 that's why I was asking the question that way.20 Okay. Let's see. So then when you --21 well, did you ever get -- not that you've ever got,22 like, really bad ratings, but did you ever get23 graded down specifically because you didn't follow24 one of those things that was set out on the video?

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1 A. If I did, I didn't know it. But obviously 2 everybody starts with five stars. So -- I was 3 driving a lot. So if one person gave me a one star, 4 they couldn't affect my ratings, because I was 5 doing, you know, hundreds and hundreds of 6 passengers. 7 So if I -- I would have to have a lot of 8 people rating me badly. If I was just doing ten 9 rides a day, one person could affect me, you know.10 But because I was working a lot of hours, you know,11 really putting my all into this for personal12 reasons, you know, things were working out well.13 So, you know, they cut the fare. I14 invested into this bigger vehicle hoping to, you15 know, be able to continue down the road with this16 income that was coming in. I was quite happy.17 Q. Okay. By the way, is that the vehicle that18 the guy ran into?19 A. Yes.20 Q. Okay. All right. We'll come back to that21 a little bit later, but I was just curious.22 Okay. You said you were working a lot of23 hours. How did you determine what hours you were24 and weren't working?

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1 A. A lot of it, when I first started out, was 2 circling Miami-Dade County, kind of feeling out 3 where the beeps were coming in, knowing where the 4 beeps weren't coming, the hours of the day. Uber 5 was helping out by giving you hot spot maps, letting 6 you know, These are the hot spots. 7 There were a lot of events going on, New 8 Year's. You had -- I mean, the University of Miami, 9 these kids take Uber religiously. So there are a10 lot of places that I learned -- I had to spend a lot11 of time not making money to learn where to make the12 money.13 Q. Okay. And so --14 A. You went out driving, and everything was15 happening, you know? You had to take the time16 driving around and learning.17 Q. And that was just sort of trial and error?18 A. Trial and error. Lots of hours of nothing.19 Q. Okay. When you first started out, then,20 were you working more hours than when you were on21 after you had some experience? Or was it just the22 case that you were working the same amount; you just23 were getting paid for more of those hours?24 A. When I first started, I don't believe they




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1 Q. All right. And -- 2 A. Typically -- that size vehicle for Uber, 3 I'm a single man, I have no kids. I don't need a 4 seven-seater vehicle. 5 Q. Okay. And, by the way, did you look into 6 signing up -- I guess you've seen in the documents, 7 heard the testimony, there are other companies out 8 there that do something similar. Specifically they 9 mentioned Lyft and Sidecar. There may be others.10 Did you look into seeing if there was some other11 company that you could also provide services with?12 A. I knew of Lyft, but not at the time that I13 signed up for Uber. I just knew it existed. And I14 never had a slow period with Uber, so there was15 never a need for me to seek other employment.16 Just so you know, before Uber, I'm a17 licensed armed security guard. That type of work18 pays good money, and there's a lot of work out there19 in Miami. I'm also a certified court process20 server, and I'm a notary.21 So those things I didn't even do any more22 because Uber full time, it was good money. I mean,23 at some point you're making $30, $40, $50 an hour.24 I mean --

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1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I couldn't make that anywhere else. 3 Q. Now, in some places being a notary is 4 nothing special, but down in Miami, so I'm told, you 5 know, you're actually kind of a personage, as it 6 were. You're more than an ordinary person if you're 7 a notary. Is that correct, or is that just, you 8 know, rumor? 9 A. I do the notary signing agent, which is10 banks call me and I go to people's homes to do the11 refinancing. They'll pay me $100, and I'll sit12 there and make sure everybody signs all their13 documents, and I send them back to the bank. Much14 as a regular notary, but just doing, you know -- a15 signing agent for banks.16 Q. Okay. And you decided not to do that any17 longer after you started up with Uber?18 A. Uber was -- I have some health problems, so19 Uber is a job that allows me to not stress myself20 out, you know, with some of the issues I have21 health-wise.22 It was good money. It was paying my health23 insurance, and it was keeping me from not having to24 exert myself in a way that would destroy my health

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1 further. So for the situation I had, Uber was 2 great. 3 Q. Does that mean while you were driving under 4 the Uber app, you were mostly just sitting in your 5 vehicle, whichever vehicle it was? 6 A. Right. It was sitting, driving people 7 around. The people you were picking up were really, 8 really nice people. I don't think I've ever had a 9 bad ride, except for somebody who threw up once or10 twice in the vehicle.11 Q. After visiting some of those clubs or12 something?13 A. Yes. The young girls cannot handle the14 liquor.15 Q. And -- well, gosh. That would be kind16 of -- would you be able to clean it up yourself, or17 did you need to go to some professional to clean18 that up?19 A. Well, Uber requires that if damage happens20 in the vehicle, that you must send the pictures21 right away. If you clean it up, you can't send them22 pictures.23 In the cases where I had the vomit, I sent24 the pictures. And then Uber somehow, through some

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1 magical calculation, comes up with the dollar amount 2 you're going to get to calculate your loss of time, 3 the damage to clean it up. And then they give you a 4 number, and they give it to the driver right away, 5 no deductions. And supposedly they -- the passenger 6 will get the car cleaning fee. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. But Uber decides that amount and decides 9 when they're going to make the decision and when10 they're going to pay you, if at all.11 Q. So then the actual cleaning, would you do12 that yourself or have somebody else do it, or what?13 A. Well, I would -- since I had a promise, I14 would clean up the initial mess and get as much as I15 could. And then I would have to take it to a16 shampooer to deep clean the seats and stuff, because17 you've got to get that professionally cleaned. I'm18 not going to leave the vomit in there, so I had to19 get that out. I did what I could, you know?20 Q. Sure. Yes. Okay. And did anybody check21 up on you, anybody from Uber anyway, check up on you22 to see what you had done with whatever cleaning fee23 they sent you?24 A. No. They would just simply get the




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1 pictures, and then -- at first I had damage to my 2 vehicle in November, the smaller car. A lady rider 3 spilt some meatball sauce all over the back seat, 4 and within 30 minutes of e-mailing Uber, they sent 5 me, I think it was, a $150 cleaning fee. I went to 6 a deep cleaner and paid them whatever they wanted. 7 They were quick. 8 As time went by, they became very slow in 9 deciding to address the damages. It kind of felt10 like they switched over their base to another place11 in the U.S., because the first two months, they were12 very responsive. The last two months, they were,13 like, nowhere to be found when you had a problem.14 Q. So, gosh, with the meatballs, were you able15 to, you know, immediately or almost immediately take16 the car in and get it cleaned and get back out on17 the road?18 A. Unfortunately, both the throw-up and the19 meatball incidents were on a Saturday night, and I20 lost the whole night on both of those.21 Q. I see. Was there any compensation that22 they gave you for not being able to get on the road23 because of that?24 A. So that's where they say, Uber does, that

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1 they calculate what they believe is the average loss 2 of time and the cleaning. In this particular case, 3 the meatballs, I was driving with uberX at the time. 4 They gave me $150, as I remember. 5 It cost me about $61. I got the receipt 6 for the shampooing. Because of the deep clean, 7 there's the foam in the back seat, so you couldn't 8 sit on it because of the, whatever, shampoo. So 9 then the rest I would assume was my money to keep10 for the loss of time.11 There was no calculation. There was no,12 "Hey, Darrin, how much do you think you lost last13 night?"14 Q. And they sent you --15 A. There was a lot more money to be made than16 what I -- the 75 bucks I got there. I was not happy.17 Plus it was a brand-new car.18 Q. Well, you know, is there any rule that says19 you can't cover all the seats in plastic and avoid,20 you know, many of those problems?21 A. Well, this was, if you can picture,22 probably a good gallon -- what felt like a good23 gallon of barbecue sauce and meat grease all over24 the back set. I don't think there was much I could

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1 do. 2 When I've had soda spilled, I have covered 3 it up. In the soda spill, they gave me, I think, a 4 $50 cleaning fee. So it's based on what type of 5 situation it is. Throw-up is supposed to be the 6 most money they give you for a cleaning fee, and 7 then they move down from there. I think the maximum 8 is $200, if I'm not mistaken. 9 Q. All right. So over the time that you were10 associated with Uber, with Rasier, how many times11 did you have to send in some sort of request for a12 cleaning fee?13 A. I had two throw-ups, a soda spill, the14 meatball grease. I'm going to say maybe six.15 Q. Okay.16 A. Six or less. Definitely no more than six.17 Q. All right. And just to make sure I've18 understood you, because I'm not sure I saw it in any19 of the documents about how they would figure it, but20 they would do whatever their calculations were and21 send you the money even before you had the clean-up22 done; is that right?23 A. That is correct.24 Q. Okay. Did any of those instances, those

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1 half dozen times, any of those instances cost you 2 more to do the clean-up -- the clean-up, not the 3 lost ride time -- but did it cost you more for the 4 clean-up than they sent you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. All right. 7 A. I also want to point out that the scooter 8 accident to the door, they charged the passenger a 9 $250 cleaning fee to cover my deductible through one10 of their two insurances that they used. So they11 were going to charge me a $250 deductible, but since12 the passenger was the one that opened the door, they13 charged -- they called it a cleaning fee. They gave14 it to me.15 Q. Okay. There was a dent in the door,16 correct?17 A. Yes. A dime-size dent. The door does not18 close correctly where there was stress.19 Q. How much did -- I assume you got that20 repaired, right?21 A. Yes. I got an estimate. It was 500 and22 some dollars. Uber gave me the $250 from the23 passenger for the cleaning fee for the deductible.24 I knew the insurance coverage had nothing




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1 MS. TAYLOR: I'm here. 2 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Oh, okay. Great. 3 You may have been saying something and I couldn't 4 hear. 5 All right. So we'll proceed, and -- all 6 right. So, Ms. Liss-Riordan, go ahead with your 7 questions for Mr. McGillis. 8 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Thank you. 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION10 BY MS. LISS-RIORDAN: 11 Q. Hello, Mr. McGillis.12 A. How are you?13 Q. Good. How are you?14 A. I'm doing good.15 Q. Good. Good. Okay, I know it's been a long16 day, so I'll try to keep it a little more brief.17 So my first question for you, Mr. McGillis,18 is, prior to your work for Uber, had you ever worked19 before as a driver?20 A. No.21 Q. So had you ever been a limo driver before?22 A. No.23 Q. Had you ever been a taxi driver?24 A. No.

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1 Q. You had never provided any kind of car 2 service at all prior to working for Uber? 3 A. Never. 4 Q. And so I understand that your previous work 5 experience was working as an employee at various 6 security companies; is that right? 7 A. In 2014, yes. 8 Q. Okay. All right. And so were you running 9 your own business when you were working for Uber?10 A. No.11 Q. Okay. When you applied to work for Uber,12 did you have to show that you had any particular13 work experience?14 A. No.15 Q. Did you have to show that you had any16 particular educational background?17 A. No.18 Q. Now, you talked a little bit about some of19 the training that you had which you viewed on the20 videos in order to start driving for Uber. Do you21 remember that?22 A. Yes.23 Q. Can you tell the Hearing Officer a little24 more about what was on those training videos. What

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1 information did Uber give you before you started 2 doing the work driving? 3 A. Well, each video was geared towards a 4 different topic. One of them would have been 5 showing you how to operate the phone, the app, when 6 you got the phone from them or used your own. It 7 would show you how to use the software, per se, how 8 it operated, picking up passengers, accepting a 9 ride, you know, closing out the ride.10 It was talking about greeting the people.11 It showed a very well-dressed man, more like a limo12 style dress-up. So it gives you the indication that13 you should dress very nicely.14 It gave you --15 Q. You say --16 A. What?17 Q. I'm sorry. Say that again. I didn't mean18 to interrupt. What was that?19 A. It gave you info on how to increase your20 star rating by providing water or bubble gum or21 things of that nature.22 Q. I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt23 occasionally. So did you understand that they were24 suggesting that you provide water for passengers?

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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And providing gum? 3 A. Yes. And they specifically told you, "Do 4 not take tips." 5 Q. You also mentioned that the video talked 6 about greeting people. What did they tell you about 7 how you should greet people? 8 A. You know, "Hello. How are you?" You know, 9 the standard greeting. I guess one of the videos10 might have shown the driver getting out and11 demonstrating to open up the car door for the12 passengers.13 Q. Okay. So did you understand that they were14 suggesting that you should open doors for15 passengers?16 A. Yes.17 Q. Did they give you any other instructions18 that you remember about your interactions with19 passengers, like how to pick them up or what part of20 the street to go to, things like that?21 A. Yes. To, you know, whatever side of the22 street they're on, be there. To wait a minimum of23 ten minutes before you call the passenger. You24 know, that calling the passenger too soon could be




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1 annoying to the passenger; it would not be a 2 customer-friendly atmosphere. You should wait, be 3 patient. 4 Keep your car clean, vacuumed, car washed. 5 You know, the things that make a presentable 6 appearance for the Uber name, basically, is what 7 they were concerned about, the Uber name. 8 Q. Was there a rule they gave you about how 9 long you should wait for a passenger?10 A. Yes. Ten minutes.11 Q. And then what did they tell you --12 A. Call the passenger. Call or text, I13 believe it may have been. But I know call was14 there.15 Q. Okay. But you weren't supposed to call or16 text the passenger until ten minutes had gone by?17 A. Right. That's what I recall.18 Q. And then what happened if you still19 couldn't reach the passenger after you did that?20 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Hang on just a21 second, Ms. Liss-Riordan. We've lost somebody and I22 need to contact them back. I think it's actually --23 sorry. The Tallahassee.24 No. It's shown as connected. So hopefully

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1 we are connected. Okay. We've done about all we 2 can do. 3 Go ahead, Ms. Liss-Riordan. You were 4 asking? 5 BY MS. LISS-RIORDAN: 6 Q. I think my question was, so if you waited 7 the requisite amount of time and then tried calling 8 the passenger and the passenger still wasn't there, 9 what did Uber instruct that you were supposed to do10 at that point?11 A. Call them. If you couldn't reach them,12 then you could cancel the ride. Make sure that you13 have the correct location, of course, wait the14 minimum of ten minutes and then call. And if you15 are unable -- if there is no communication, then16 cancel the ride, which is what I would do.17 Q. Okay. And would you get any compensation18 for having shown up for a ride like that, where the19 passenger didn't show up and didn't respond?20 A. If five minutes have passed, you're21 supposed to get a cancellation fee of $5.22 Q. Okay. And did you typically get those fees23 when that happened?24 A. Sometimes I would see those fees not

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1 appearing, and sometimes I would see them. 2 Q. Did you know on what occasions you got them 3 and what occasions you didn't get them? 4 A. Yes, because I would look for them. But I 5 kind of brushed them off because I was doing so much 6 work anyways that I just was, like, whatever. 7 Q. Right, but -- 8 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: I apologize for 9 interrupting again. It looks like we're getting the10 phone line a little unstable, given the amount of11 time. Let's see if we can get them back on the12 line. (Phone ringing) Now it looks like we're13 reconnected.14 So I'm sorry, Ms. Liss-Riordan. Go ahead.15 You were asking about cancellation fees.16 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Yes.17 BY MS. LISS-RIORDAN: 18 Q. So my question is, do you know whether Uber19 played some role in determining when you got the20 cancellation fees and when you didn't get the21 cancellation fees when a passenger didn't show up?22 A. Yes. Everything was at their discretion.23 Q. It was at Uber's discretion whether you got24 the fees?

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1 A. They had full control. I had no control 2 over any of that. 3 Q. Okay. Now, when you were driving for Uber, 4 there's been some testimony that you got e-mails 5 from them, for instance, showing your ratings; is 6 that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Besides -- well, we'll come back. Besides 9 those e-mails showing your ratings, did you get10 communications from Uber from time to time while you11 were driving for them?12 A. Yes.13 Q. How often did you get communications from14 Uber while you were driving for them?15 A. Almost daily.16 Q. And what kinds of things were in these17 communications?18 A. Oh, they were trying to get me to buy a car19 through their car system; letting me know about20 events coming up in Miami; cutting the fares for21 certain -- why we were cutting fares in Miami.22 Everything that you could think about.23 When it's going to be surging, hot spots.24 Rewards. They are trying to offer you rewards,




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1 discounts through AT&T and Sprint or through stores, 2 stuff like that. 3 You know, you could go in -- they will let 4 you know about your stars, the stars you got. They 5 send you your money that you made for the week. 6 They will let you know before payday how much it's 7 adding up to. A lot of things. 8 Q. And did they send you, in these e-mails, 9 pointers about, you know, how to act, how to be a10 good Uber driver?11 A. Yes. There was always a little how --12 pointers of, you know, what's best to do and not do.13 One of them was telling me how to pick up people at14 the airport and avoid getting a $2000 ticket,15 because, you know, they're still working with the16 Miami-Dade County. And "While we're working out17 this problem, here's what you need to do to avoid18 law enforcement."19 They would have issues in West Palm Beach,20 telling us that you need to have your car inspected21 if you're going to work there. Various things that22 were going on.23 Q. Okay. Do you remember other pointers that24 they would e-mail you about about how to do a better

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1 job as an Uber driver? Like interactions with 2 customers, things like that? 3 A. Yes, customers. You know, make sure you 4 get them to the correct destination. You know, dial 5 up with the customers when you arrive. Be polite. 6 Your standard, basic customer service. 7 Q. Okay. Now, I think you had mentioned before 8 that you were working quite a few hours. How many 9 hours per week would you say you were working for10 Uber during the time you worked for them?11 A. Well over 40 hours.12 Q. And was that consistently throughout the13 entire time you were with Uber?14 A. With the exception of, I think, one week15 where I was a little under the weather, where I16 might have worked maybe 30 hours. It was just one17 week somewhere in the middle of that time.18 Q. And what would you say was the most number19 of hours that you worked in a week?20 A. I would probably -- the week I was sick.21 Q. Not the least.22 A. Oh, the most?23 Q. Yes.24 A. The most I probably worked, I would

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1 probably put it at, my God, almost close to 80 or 2 70. 80. I was putting in a lot of hours for them. 3 Q. So you said you usually worked more than 4 40. You sometimes worked as much as 70 or 80. What 5 would you say is the typical number of hours per 6 week you worked? 7 A. If I were to guess, it would be anywhere 8 from 45 to 55. 9 Q. And was your work for Uber your main source10 of income during that period that you worked for11 Uber?12 A. Yes, it was.13 Q. Okay. Now, the rate that was charged to14 passengers, who decided on those rates, you or Uber?15 A. Uber dictated the rates when I began, and16 they dictated the current fares in January in the17 middle of my employment with them.18 Q. Okay. Did you have any ability to negotiate19 with customers the rates that they would pay for the20 car service?21 A. None whatsoever.22 Q. And what percentage commission did Uber23 take from the fares?24 A. Uber, no matter what the fare was, a $5

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1 fare or $100 fare, they took a dollar off the top of 2 every fare. Once they took that dollar, then it 3 became a percentage. If you were on the X, uberX, 4 it would be 20 percent Uber, 80 percent the driver. 5 If you're on the XL, 28 percent Uber, 72 percent the 6 driver. 7 Q. And were those the rates that Uber charged 8 you? 9 A. I'm sorry?10 Q. Were those the rates that Uber took from11 the rides that you did?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Did you have any opportunity to negotiate14 those percentages?15 A. No.16 Q. Okay. And how were you actually paid for17 your work driving?18 A. Direct deposit into my bank account.19 Q. Okay. So it would pay, like -- the20 passenger paid by credit card to Uber, and then Uber21 paid you?22 A. Yes. They would collect all the monies,23 and then -- the monies would come in and, you know,24 at the end of the week -- the work week began Monday




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1 at 4 a.m. and ended at Sunday at 4 a.m. And then on 2 Thursday, sometime on Thursday, there would be a 3 direct deposit coming through to my account for that 4 week. 5 Q. So if you had wanted to, instead of getting 6 paid through this method by credit card and direct 7 deposit, could you have just taken cash directly 8 from the customers or checks from the customers? 9 A. That's prohibited.10 Q. Okay. So you didn't have any -- did you11 have any opportunity to negotiate or change the12 system of how you got your pay?13 A. No. None whatsoever.14 Q. Okay. Now, the customers who you drove,15 were customers able to request you in particular?16 A. No.17 Q. So were you able to develop any kind of18 special relationship with any of your customers to19 make them repeat customers?20 A. No.21 Q. Okay. I think I saw on some of your22 documents that you had a suggestion at one point to23 Uber that you could dress up as Santa at24 Christmastime? Do you remember that?

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1 A. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. 2 Q. So if you had wanted to try to increase 3 your business by dressing up as Santa to try to 4 attract more customers to you, could you do that? 5 A. It wouldn't attract customers to me. It 6 would just kind of make my star rating higher. So, 7 no, I couldn't do it to attract customers, but the 8 passengers that I had would make my star rating much 9 higher. So I could not do that, no.10 Q. Okay. Okay. Were you allowed to dress up as11 Santa?12 A. There was no opposition to it, but there13 was no -- so I think -- I guess if I wanted to, yes.14 Q. Okay. Uber didn't tell you you couldn't15 dress up as Santa? I thought they told you you16 couldn't do that.17 A. You know, I can't remember. It's such a18 long time ago. Honestly -- I would be lying if I19 told you the answer, because it was a long time ago.20 I remember inquiring. I can't remember the21 response.22 Q. Okay. Did you ever dress up as Santa?23 A. No, I did not.24 Q. Okay. There has been some talk in this

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1 hearing about guaranteed hourly rate. Were there 2 times that you received guaranteed hourly rates from 3 Uber? 4 A. Yes, that is correct. Under certain 5 circumstances. 6 Q. Okay. And did you feel that -- through 7 using these hourly rates or through the surge 8 pricing, did you feel that Uber was encouraging you 9 and other drivers to work at certain times?10 A. Well, not only were they encouraging, in11 order to get that hourly rate, you had to stay12 online working for Uber at least 50 minutes, and you13 had to have at least gotten one passenger ride in14 that hour.15 So this was a very creative way for them to16 lock you into Uber exclusively, preventing you, if17 you did have other work, from doing other work, when18 you were forced to work for Uber to get that hourly19 rate.20 Q. So my question -- Mr. McGillis, my question21 is, at certain times were you -- I think you22 mentioned this a bit in your answers before. Were23 there times that Uber, from what you could tell, was24 trying to get you and other drivers to go to

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1 particular locations at particular times? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And how did they do that? 4 A. They would give certain areas guaranteed 5 hourly rates. They would give incentives to 6 drivers, such as "It's surging in this area. You're 7 going to make a minimum of $30 an hour if you work 8 this area." They used the word "guaranteed" in 9 these communications, in these texts and e-mail.10 Q. So did you sometimes go to the places where11 they said that rates were surging because they had12 told you -- they had given you these messages?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Now, I know there was a lot of discussion15 in your questioning before, but just I want to16 summarize here. When a customer messed up your17 vehicle -- you mentioned the meatballs being spilled18 and some vomiting episodes -- generally, Uber had a19 policy to reimburse for cleaning when there were20 such messes, right?21 A. Right. They called it a cleaning fee.22 Q. It sounds like it was not always so easy to23 get the reimbursement for the cleaning fee?24 A. At the beginning it was easy, and at the




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1 end, the last few months, it was very difficult. 2 Q. Okay. And when you say it was difficult, 3 did you feel like Uber was using its discretion in 4 determining whether or not to pay the cleaning fee? 5 A. You know, not only to pay, but also 6 determining the amount. I had vomit in the SUV in 7 the last two months of working for them, and they 8 took a few days even to respond to my pictures and 9 everything.10 Then when they did respond -- the maximum11 you can get is $200, from what I understand. They12 responded with, I think, $150. And I said, "Well, I13 lost the whole night. I said the last time I had to14 clean up something, it cost me this amount of15 money." So they eventually went ahead and gave me16 another $50, but it took a lot of teeth pulling.17 In one instance, with the soda --18 Q. Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. I just want19 to keep it moving here. So I'm going to move on20 from the cleaning fees. That's okay.21 A. They gave me less than what it cost me to22 clean up on one incident. That's what I was going23 to mention.24 Q. But the point is, did you feel like it was

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1 within Uber's discretion to decide how much they 2 were going to reimburse you? 3 A. It absolutely was. And it changed from 4 time to time, and I have -- 5 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Just so we can move 6 along, I'm not going to ask you for the examples. I 7 think we talked about that at fair length before. 8 Now, we talked about the rating from the 9 client. Did you have an understanding about what10 the purpose of these passenger ratings was or what11 the potential repercussions were from these ratings?12 A. Yes.13 Q. And can you explain that.14 A. If you dropped below 4.6, you would be15 deactivated, fired, terminated from Uber.16 Q. Okay. And then did that affect -- so you17 were aware of that while you were driving for Uber,18 that if your ratings went too low, you could be19 deactivated?20 A. Yes. So regardless --21 Q. Did that affect what you did or how you22 performed your job?23 A. Well, yes. It had an impact.24 Q. Can you explain that.

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1 A. Yes. Because no matter how you were being 2 treated by the customer, you needed to always be on 3 your game, because if your rating was below this 4 percentage, you're gone, with no recourse. 5 Q. So did you understand, Mr. McGillis, that 6 Uber had the discretion to fire you if they wanted 7 to? 8 A. Yes. That was made clear. 9 Q. And did that have an impact on what you did10 as a driver?11 A. It has an impact, and it has a ripple12 effect across the United States, because many13 drivers won't talk to anybody or put their name out,14 because -- in fear of it happening to them, because15 they're afraid of being deactivated.16 Q. Okay. So my question for you, knowing that17 you could be deactivated at any time, did that have18 any kind of effect on you and what you did while you19 were working for Uber?20 A. Oh, yes. Absolutely.21 Q. Can you explain that.22 A. Well, it kept me very nervous and very23 cautious of everything that I was doing, because my24 employer was looking over my back constantly and

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1 checking up on me, based on the rating system. 2 And I had to always, you know, be on my 3 game. It was a stressful situation, knowing that 4 you could be fired at any moment and not know why. 5 Q. Did it make you feel like you needed to do 6 what you understood Uber wanted you to do? 7 A. Yes. I always had the water, always 8 stocking up the water. Even though it was costing 9 me money, these were the things they were saying to10 do to keep your rating high, always having candy and11 other things. And this was costing me money. But12 that's what Uber demanded with their videos.13 Q. So, now, when you were doing the work, did14 you accept all the rides that were offered to you?15 A. Almost all of them. Almost all.16 Q. Did you understand that you were supposed17 to pretty much accept all the rides that were18 offered?19 A. Yes. It was very nerve-racking when you got20 a beep. Then if you didn't accept it, the21 consequences of being terminated. So when you push22 the button, you'd better be sure you're going to go23 get that passenger, because you were on pins and24 needles.




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1 Q. Mr. McGillis, while you were working for 2 Uber, did you ever have any employees yourself? 3 A. No. That was prohibited, even to bring a 4 passenger with you. 5 Q. I know there was some talk a little earlier 6 about your deactivation. Can you describe for us 7 briefly what led to your deactivation, as you 8 understand it. 9 A. Yes. I was told -- well, really I wasn't10 given any reasoning. But somebody had called me and11 told me that, because I requested information --12 requested -- for Uber's insurance form -- Uber13 required the name of the witnesses and passengers in14 the car. I didn't have that. So I --15 Q. Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. I'm going to16 interrupt just to back up for a moment, just to17 describe the context of the insurance form. So I18 understand that there was an accident of some sort19 involving your vehicle?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Can you just tell us briefly what happened.22 A. There was seven people in the vehicle.23 They were going to the Ultra Music Festival, young24 people. I pulled over to the side of the road. The

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1 young man in the back opened the door to exit, and a 2 scooter illegally came onto the sidewalk to bypass 3 me and hit the door and crashed into the door, and 4 that caused some damage to the door. 5 Q. Okay. And then what happened after that 6 incident occurred? 7 A. Obviously the police were called, and an 8 ambulance came for the scooter rider. I contacted 9 Uber immediately.10 Q. Let me just ask you, was there a rule that11 you were supposed to contact Uber if there was an12 accident involving your car?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Okay.15 A. Inside the app it gives you a drop-down box16 for that purpose.17 Q. Okay.18 A. I took pictures and sent them to Uber.19 They told me they would be basically in touch with20 me. They sent me a link to what was called Uber's21 Incident Report, a two-page document, which is their22 internal report. They want you to draw a diagram23 and answer some questions pertaining to the24 accident. It's kind of like a police report, but

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1 Uber's version. 2 Q. Okay. And so you submitted a report to 3 Uber? 4 A. Right. But I couldn't completely fill it 5 out because of the information I needed. 6 Q. What information was that? 7 A. I needed the name of the passengers and the 8 witnesses. Those were the people that were in the 9 vehicle with me.10 I e-mailed Uber requesting that11 information, and they refused to provide it, at12 which point I said, "If you can't provide me the13 info, I have to go to the passenger's home to get14 the info that your document -- you won't reimburse15 me unless you have the document completed."16 So I needed the info from the customer. I17 can't fill out the form. If I can't fill out the18 form, I can't get my car fixed.19 Q. Mr. McGillis, did you go to that20 passenger's home?21 A. Never. I never went.22 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Okay. Wait. I just got23 a message that Uber's attorney got cut off from the24 call.

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1 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right. I will 2 call him back. (Phone ringing) 3 WOMAN'S VOICE: Good afternoon. Littler 4 Mendelson. Deirdre speaking. 5 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Hi. We were on 6 the line with Mr. Wilson, with Courtney Wilson. We 7 got cut off. Can we get reestablished? 8 WOMAN'S VOICE: Okay. Sure. What's your 9 first name, sir?10 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: My name is Jackson

11 Houser.12 WOMAN'S VOICE: Give me just one second,13 sir.14 MR. WILSON: Hi. This is Courtney.15 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Mr. Wilson, we got

16 cut off. Evidently you sent a message to Ms.17 Liss-Riordan. I didn't see it shown on my screen18 that you had gotten cut off.19 When did you last -- what was it that you20 last heard?21 MR. WILSON: The last question was whether22 Mr. McGillis had any employees while he worked for23 Uber.24 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Okay. So we need




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1 to go back just a little bit and -- hmm, maybe a 2 lot. 3 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Okay. I can pick it up 4 from that point. 5 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: What led to the 6 deactivation, basically, was the line of 7 questioning. 8 MR. WILSON: We got off before we even got 9 an answer about whether he had any employees.10 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Let's go back to that11 one then.12 BY MS. LISS-RIORDAN: 13 Q. Mr. McGillis, did you have any employees?14 A. No.15 Q. Okay. Now, after that I started to ask you16 about the events that led to your deactivation. So17 can we run through those again.18 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Before you get19 into that, Ms. Liss-Riordan, let me just say, I20 think that -- you know, yes, that was the answer.21 But I believe that the answer that Mr. McGillis had22 originally given to the question about having any23 employees is that, no, that it was prohibited even24 to have a passenger. So -- for what that's worth.

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1 To the extent it's different, I just wanted to make 2 sure that Mr. Wilson was aware of the full answer. 3 But that's basically what Mr. McGillis 4 said. Is that right? 5 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Yes. That is what I 6 believe he said. 7 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Okay. Great. 8 Okay. So I'll let you go back and reiterate from 9 there.10 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Okay.11 BY MS. LISS-RIORDAN: 12 Q. So, Mr. McGillis, we're going to run13 through again what we had just covered when Uber's14 counsel was off the call, talking about the events15 that led to your deactivation.16 So I understand that there was an accident17 involving your vehicle at some point; is that18 correct?19 A. Yes, that's correct.20 Q. And can you describe for us briefly what21 happened.22 A. I was dropping off seven college students23 who were going to the Ultra Music Festival in24 downtown Miami. I pulled the vehicle over to the

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1 sidewalk where they requested to be dropped off. As 2 I stopped the vehicle completely, the back 3 passenger, a young man, opened his door, and a 4 scooter who was impatient, obviously, came up on the 5 sidewalk, and he hit the door of the car and caused 6 some minor damage. And that's what happened. 7 Q. Okay. And was there any protocol or 8 requirement of what you were supposed to do if your 9 car is in an accident while you're driving for Uber?10 A. Yes. Uber has a drop-down box in the app11 verifying the incident, which I did. I communicated12 with them back and forth that whole day.13 They sent me a two-page Uber incident14 report, which is similar to a police report or an15 accident report. They requested numerous16 information, including making me make a diagram of17 what happened in a box.18 One of the information that they wanted on19 there was, in order to be reimbursed for damages20 through the insurance company, I needed to provide21 the witnesses' and the passengers' names that were22 with me.23 I e-mailed Uber, telling them I need this24 information for their form. And they refused to

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1 provide it. They didn't even respond to me. And I 2 told them, by follow-up e-mails, that I would have 3 to go to the passenger's home to get that 4 information, because you won't reimburse me until 5 you have this completed form, and I need -- you 6 won't give me the information. 7 So they -- 8 Q. Okay. So, Mr. McGillis, I think my next 9 question for you was, did you go to the passenger's10 home?11 A. No, I did not. Never did.12 Q. And then what happened next?13 A. I completed the form with the address14 unknown -- the names unknown of the passengers on15 the form. I submitted it to their insurance16 company. And then another insurance company --17 there were several insurance issues, because they18 wanted a $1000 deductible.19 So they found another insurance company20 that was only $250 deductible. Uber called me and21 said they were going to charge the passenger the22 $250 deductible as a cleaning fee, and they23 contacted the passenger for that. I had no contact24 with the passenger at all, nor did I go to their




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1 house. 2 Q. Okay. And then did you -- were you able to 3 continue driving for Uber after that? 4 A. The day of the accident, after waiting a 5 few hours for the police to do their investigation, 6 I did do probably six or seven more rides that day 7 or that evening, and then I went home. 8 Q. Then did you -- were you able to continue 9 driving for Uber after that?10 A. No. Then I was told that they were11 deactivating me for threatening to go to the12 passenger's home, which is a violation of their13 privacy terms.14 Q. Had they ever told you before that you15 weren't allowed to do something like that if they16 asked for it on one of their forms?17 A. No.18 Q. Okay. And so you were deactivated?19 A. Yes. Well, I was initially deactivated the20 following day because of the accident. They didn't21 know about further damages. They reactivated it22 when they realized I didn't have further damages,23 but then a few hours or a day later, and I had not24 taken any further rides, they deactivated me again

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1 permanently for the passenger's information for 2 their insurance form. 3 Q. Okay. And then as a result of being 4 deactivated, I take it that that affected your 5 income? 6 A. Drastically. And my health. 7 Q. Okay. Mr. McGillis, the hour is getting 8 late, so I do want to wrap up soon, but I just want 9 to run through with you quickly some of the exhibits10 that we submitted. Do you have those there?11 A. The ones that you submitted?12 Q. Yes. The big stack of the ones we13 submitted.14 A. Yes.15 Q. Okay. All right. I'm going to identify16 certain ones. If you could just turn to them as I17 identify them. If you turn to No. 7?18 A. Okay. No. 7.19 Q. I believe you had testified before about20 various e-mails you would get from Uber giving you21 instructions on various things. Is this an example22 of one of those e-mails that you would get from Uber23 while you were working for them?24 A. Yes. And this is just one of several that I

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1 got that stated their information over a period of 2 time. 3 Q. And this is the one about how to act at the 4 airport, right? 5 A. That's correct. South Florida airport. 6 Q. Now, if you flip to No. 8, I understand 7 that you would get e-mails from time to time 8 encouraging you to drive at different times and 9 letting you know that you would get -- can expect to10 get certain hourly rates. Is that right?11 A. Yes, that's correct.12 Q. So is No. 8 an example of one of those13 e-mails you would get?14 A. Yes. That is correct.15 Q. Where it says, "Partners can earn as much16 as $35 per hour or more in fares"?17 A. Yes. That is correct.18 Q. Now, if you flip to No. 9, we've got some19 excerpts from Uber's website on here. The second20 page of Exhibit 9 talks about how acceptance rates21 are calculated, and it says, "You should accept at22 least 80 percent of the trip requests to retain your23 account status." Do you see that?24 A. Yes, I do.

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1 Q. Okay. All right. So you understood that 2 they were tracking your acceptance rate? 3 A. Yes. And I actually accepted 4 90 percent. 5 Q. So that's why you did accept every trip; is 6 that right? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. Okay. And then flip to Exhibit 11, which 9 is also from Uber's website. It has the question,10 "Can I request a specific driver?" The answer is,11 "We automatically connect you with the closest12 driver to get you picked up as quickly as possible.13 As such, it isn't possible to request a specific14 driver." Do you see that?15 A. Yes, I do.16 Q. So you understood that customers couldn't17 request you particularly?18 A. Yes. It was not possible.19 Q. Okay. Now, flip to 12.20 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Before we go on,21 Mr. McGillis, the documents that Ms. Liss-Riordan22 has been asking you about, where she's indicated23 they are from Uber's website, are they in fact from24 Uber's website?




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1 I'm asking you if hit the "Accept" button on the 2 terms and conditions in order to install the Uber 3 application and use it. 4 A. I think you've asked and I've answered that 5 question. I said I don't recall. 6 Q. And you purchased your sport utility 7 vehicle solely for the purpose of switching to 8 Uber's XL platform, correct? 9 A. That is correct.10 Q. And how much did you pay for that SUV?11 A. You mean the full purchase price or the12 interest?13 Q. You can give me either or both.14 A. I believe it was -- I don't know the exact15 number. We're looking at about 50K.16 Q. 50,000 with interest?17 A. Yes. Interest. I have a high interest18 rate. I didn't look at that number. It's scary.19 But, yes, it's pretty high.20 Q. Okay. So at a minimum, you invested $50,00021 in this operation, correct?22 A. I have invested into that vehicle for the23 XL program.24 Q. Now, you said that you watched Uber videos

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1 where they talked about where to pick up passengers, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. That's correct. 4 Q. And you took from that, because the man in 5 the video was wearing -- was well dressed, you took 6 that to be a suggestion that drivers should be well 7 dressed, right? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. And there were suggestions in the video10 that passengers would appreciate being offered11 chewing gum or water during their ride, correct?12 A. Water for sure. I don't know the idea of13 chewing gum, but there was something of that sort.14 Probably gum.15 Q. Are you aware of any action that Uber ever16 took to determine how you were picking up17 passengers?18 A. Repeat the question.19 Q. Sure. You said that the video explained20 how to pick up passengers; in other words, pulling21 off to the curb with the passenger door on their22 side. Did Uber ever take any action to determine23 whether you were doing that or not doing that?24 A. Uber does not disclose what actions they're

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1 taking or not taking. They're very selective. 2 Q. So you're not aware of any? 3 A. No idea. 4 Q. And the same question with respect to the 5 clothing that you wore. Did Uber take any action to 6 determine what kind of clothing you were wearing 7 when you were transporting riders? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Did Uber take any action to determine10 whether you were offering water to riders?11 A. I don't know.12 Q. Did Uber take any action to determine13 whether you were offering gum or candy to riders?14 A. I don't know.15 Q. Do you know of any action Uber ever took to16 determine anything that you were doing in connection17 with driving a passenger from Point A to Point B?18 A. They put everything into the rating system.19 The rating system is their -- they know if you're20 not doing these things, because the rating system is21 going to reflect that.22 Q. But the rating system reflects feedback23 from customers, correct?24 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Not feedback from Uber, correct? 2 A. The rating system is from feedback from 3 customers to Uber. 4 Q. And whether a customer rates you as five 5 stars or one star, you don't know why they do that, 6 correct? 7 A. No, that's correct. 8 Q. And Uber doesn't know why they do that, 9 correct?10 A. I don't know.11 Q. And when you were driving for -- through12 the Uber app, you made your own decisions about when13 it would be most profitable for you to work and14 where it would be most profitable for you to work,15 correct?16 A. With Uber's guidance, yes.17 Q. You said you didn't always trust Uber's18 guidance; you made your own decisions, correct?19 A. Well, if everybody is using Uber's20 guidance, it could get saturated. So I winged it,21 as you might say. But Uber had the bullet points22 and a map highlighted that would show you where to23 go, down to the city block.24 Q. And you said you invested a substantial




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1 amount of your own time testing out what areas and 2 what times were most profitable, correct? 3 A. Not a substantial amount of time, but I 4 winged it for a week to try to fill out where the 5 things were coming from, is it worth coming out here 6 or going over here. But, no, not that substantial. 7 Just, like, a week. That's it. 8 Q. But you used that information that you 9 developed to make your own decisions about what was10 most profitable, correct?11 A. With Uber's guidance, I did that, using12 their guidance and their training and their videos13 showing me what to do.14 There was an article I read from Uber that15 told its drivers that you need to do this. So what16 I did was not my own imagination. This was an Uber17 article that I read that actually had us go out and18 tour the streets, learning different places. So19 while I did it, it was through the guidance of Uber.20 Q. And then based upon your experience doing21 that, you made decisions about when and where to22 work that would be most profitable; is that right?23 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: This has been asked and24 answered. I would ask that we move on.

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1 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: I'm going to allow 2 the question this time. 3 A. Would you repeat the question, sir. 4 Q. Yes. Based upon your experience during 5 that week, you made your own decisions about where 6 and when it would be most profitable for you to 7 work? 8 A. In conjunction with Uber's weekly e-mail, 9 we were -- in conjunction with all the information10 that Uber was providing me, as well as information I11 had independently, I would then make the best12 decision for that week.13 Q. And that decision would be where and when14 it is most profitable for you to work, correct?15 A. Taking everything Uber has provided me for16 that week in account with my own knowledge as a17 smart human being, I would go ahead and make some18 decisions, you know.19 Q. I'm just asking, was the decision that you20 made where and when it would be possible --21 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: I'm sorry, Mr.22 Wilson, to interrupt.23 Mr. McGillis, keep in mind that, yes, you24 know, you may be taking this into account when

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1 you're giving your answers. But when Mr. Wilson is 2 asking a question that basically, in its form, calls 3 for a "Yes" or "No" answer, if you don't go ahead 4 and answer "Yes" or "No," that might sound like 5 you're really trying to evade an answer to the 6 question. That would not be a good thing. 7 Now, you may be trying to explain your 8 answer, but I would suggest to you this, that you go 9 ahead and just give a short, brief, to-the-point10 answer. If you need to explain, I can give you an11 opportunity. But in most cases, you won't have to12 explain, because it will be clear, based on your13 other testimony, what the explanation would be.14 So, you know, if you're worried that you15 might be misunderstood, I would suggest it's16 actually better to just, you know, give a brief17 answer to the question, if it sounds like it's one18 that can be answered "Yes" or "No," okay?19 THE WITNESS: Okay.20 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Go ahead, Mr.21 Wilson. Other questions?22 MR. WILSON: Yes.23 BY MR. WILSON: 24 Q. That being said, then the decision you made

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1 about where and when to go was ultimately what you 2 thought was most profitable, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. By the way, you said that you 5 thought that you had a good sense of humor and if 6 you told jokes to passengers, it would increase your 7 rating; is that correct? 8 A. I'm naturally, by birth, the person that 9 people like to be around. That's just my advantage.10 Q. So your perception is that being humorous11 would help increase your ratings on the Uber star12 rating system; is that right?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Did Uber ever tell you to tell jokes?15 A. Not specifically, no.16 Q. Okay. That's something you came up with on17 your own?18 A. Yes.19 Q. And you believe it was successful in20 increasing your ratings?21 A. Yes.22 Q. Okay. Bear with me as I go through my23 notes. I'm trying to conclude.24 Mr. McGillis, you talked briefly about




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1 times when Uber would offer guaranteed hourly 2 minimum rates or guaranteed minimum rates. Do you 3 recall that? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. Did you have the discretion to accept the 6 offer to work during those periods of time or not to 7 work during those periods of time? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Did you ever decide not to work10 during one of those periods of time?11 A. Not that I recall.12 Q. And when you decided to work during those13 periods of time, was there ever a time when you did14 not exceed the minimum level promised by Uber?15 A. When I didn't work those, did I not exceed16 the minimum -- say that again. I'm sorry. Repeat17 the question.18 Q. Sure. If Uber, for example, said, "We19 guarantee you will make a minimum of $30 per hour,"20 and you worked that period of time, did you ever21 make less from your trips than Uber had guaranteed22 you?23 A. I'm confused, because I want to know if24 you're asking me if -- if Uber never paid me the

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1 guarantee? 2 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: No. What he's 3 asking, Mr. McGillis, is this: On those times when 4 Uber said, "If you do this, this and this, you'll 5 make at least," let's say, "$30 an hour," and when 6 you did work on those occasions and you did those 7 things, did you always make at least $30 an hour? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. If I didn't, they would 9 make up the difference.10 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Do you remember if

11 there was any time when you worked, you did12 everything that Uber said you should do, and they13 wound up having to pay you the minimum instead of14 you making more than that, based on the fares of the15 people that you drove?16 THE WITNESS: There were numerous times17 that they did have to make up the fare.18 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Okay.19 Other questions, Mr. Wilson?20 BY MR. WILSON: 21 Q. With respect to the incident that led to22 your first deactivation in March of 2015, do you23 recall testifying about that?24 A. Yes, I do.

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1 Q. And I take it, from your testimony, it was 2 your understanding that the scooter driver was at 3 fault? 4 A. The scooter driver -- well, the passenger 5 was -- as far as the police were concerned, the 6 scooter driver was at fault. As far as Uber was 7 concerned, the passenger was at fault for opening 8 the door. 9 Q. I asked you who you considered to be at10 fault.11 A. You know, it's a tough one, because I would12 like the kid to actually look before opening the13 door. But then the scooter driver was driving14 illegally on the sidewalk. So to me, I could say15 shared fault, or -- I don't know.16 Q. Okay. And these were students that you were17 dropping off?18 A. Yes. They were college students going to19 the Ultra Music Festival. Very nice.20 Q. And for whatever reason, there came a time21 when you informed Uber that you were going to go to22 one of those passengers' homes, correct?23 A. No. That's not correct how that happened.24 I was trying to gather the information for the

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1 insurance form, and Uber was not responding. And 2 then I said, "If you're not going to give me that, 3 because I can't get the -- I can't get the insurance 4 money from the guys without this information. If 5 you're not going to give it to me, then I have to go 6 to their home to get this information." Did I ever 7 go to the home? No. 8 Q. And I'm not asking if you went to the home. 9 I'm asking if you told Uber that you were going to10 go to the passenger's home.11 A. I have an e-mail that I would go to the12 home -- yes, that I said I would.13 Q. And your understanding is that's why they14 deactivated your access?15 A. That is what I was told. I was never given16 any written explanation.17 MR. WILSON: I don't have any further18 questions. Thank you.19 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right.20 Ms. Taylor, did you have further questions21 for Mr. McGillis?22 MS. TAYLOR: I only have a couple, Mr.23 Houser.24 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Okay. Let me just




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1 worker -- I think he was kind of wondering if he -- 2 I think he was a little nervous when he first made 3 them. He had been making Determinations for a 4 while, but I think sometimes people just like 5 someone else to agree or disagree with their 6 findings. 7 And he had asked the lead worker, and she 8 is, like I said, now retired. But I also reviewed 9 the account and agreed with his Determination.10 Mr. McGillis was the first Determination,11 and then we received, I think it was, maybe Mr.12 Hutton next, just off the top of my head. I'm not13 sure. We received another one and affirmed the14 prior Determination, because they were doing the15 same type of work.16 Q. And then with respect to Ms. Ewers, was17 she -- was her Determination basically because you18 had already made two others and figured she would be19 the same kind of Determination?20 A. Yes, sir. If you notice in the findings,21 Uber or Rasier usually did not mention having any22 other workers to be considered an employee or23 independent contractor. So when this initial24 Determination was made, it was based on the findings

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1 of what Mr. Hall got from Mr. McGillis and from 2 Rasier. 3 So based on his original findings from 4 those two, it appeared it was one person that was 5 treated this way. The Determination was issued, and 6 then other claims started coming in. 7 Q. And then from your review of the files, is 8 there any significant difference, as far as you 9 know, between the situation that Mr. McGillis was in10 and the situation that Ms. Ewers was in with respect11 to Rasier?12 A. They answered whether they were in business13 for themselves differently, and it did appear that14 they talked about, I want to say, training. Bear15 with me a second. Let me grab the other one.16 Normally we would rule on an entire class,17 if there had been several people indicated on there,18 but like I said, they only indicated they had that19 one worker here in Florida.20 Let's see. This particular one I'm looking21 at is for Melissa. And Melissa did indicate she was22 independent. But she was also saying that she23 carried business liability insurance, which, based24 on the testimony, these parties were not carrying

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1 any type of separate business liability. 2 She did say that she had no occupational 3 license. She even claimed she had workers' 4 compensation or bonuses. She got paid commissions. 5 She got paid bonuses. She did not bill. He did not 6 bill. She indicated that they told her when and 7 where and how, the sequence to do the work. She had 8 an identification badge as well. And she received 9 training. So she did have similar answers to Mr.10 McGillis.11 Q. Okay.12 A. Training and those type things are13 considered to be various means of control.14 Q. So you've identified certain aspects of the15 information available that led to the conclusion16 that these workers were employees and not17 independent contractors. Were there some other18 significant aspects of the information that lead you19 to conclude that?20 A. Yes, sir. Upon further research, this has21 become pretty big as far as additional things. Like22 just listening to your radio station, if you have an23 iPhone or listen to Pandora, they advertise for24 drivers. They advertise signing bonuses for

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1 drivers. 2 They call themselves "Uber." And this 3 particular company was not registered to do 4 business -- they were not registered for tax, excuse 5 me, in the state of Florida. 6 And there were various things that lead of 7 course the tax auditor to question certain things, 8 when you have a business here in Florida that's not 9 paying any taxes. And it still concerns me to this10 day, because, based on what I've heard from11 testimony, they could be subject to additional taxes12 if they were to call the Department Tax Information13 Center.14 As far as just this particular case goes,15 we were only dealing with reemployment tax. And16 normally we look at if there's control or any17 incidents which would indicate that. And when we18 looked at this particular case, there were various19 areas, such as they had to maintain certain ratings;20 the drivers had to have approved cars; they had the21 right to terminate without a breach of contract,22 either party could. Without a breach of contract23 they could terminate the relationship.24 The drivers couldn't or were not supposed




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1 to collect tips. The rates were set by the business 2 rather than the driver. 3 They had to wait ten minutes to pick 4 someone up rather than making their own 5 determination. They were prohibited from 6 transporting additional people. And even like 7 myself, maybe you can call me frugal, but sometimes 8 I've rode in the cab to the same motel with someone 9 else and they split the fare. Those type things10 were the beginning of all of this coming out in the11 work.12 The company mandated the passengers be13 transported directly to their destination; they14 couldn't stop and pick someone up on the way. They15 couldn't have other riders in there, things of that16 nature.17 The fact that there was no distinct18 business occupations or license required by these19 drivers. It's like anybody who could have a license20 could drive.21 It's almost like they're not accountable22 for their own actions, due to the fact their23 insurance companies don't even carry them for24 picking up additional passengers. They're not

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1 carrying liability insurance that would secure or 2 protect those individuals if they were in an 3 accident. They don't provide any commercial 4 liability; those drivers don't. 5 Let's see. Other things that... It 6 appeared, reading on the website, I want to say it 7 was like $50,000 or $100,000 liability, commercial 8 liability policy that Uber carried for them. It was 9 pretty much based on all the terms that Uber gave10 that these individuals would work.11 It was an unskilled job, meaning there is12 no particular requirement or education or anything13 of that nature to get this certain position, other14 than just a background check. And it appears that15 that was taken by the business.16 Whether the workers applied instruments or17 anything of that nature, it didn't appear that they18 supplied anything except the vehicle, and that had19 to be prior approved by the company.20 It appears that the length of time period,21 there seemed to be a continuing relationship between22 the two individuals.23 The method of payment. Due to the fact24 that the drivers themselves didn't set the rate, the

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1 drivers themselves didn't bill or anything of that 2 nature. That was all predetermined by the 3 third-party company, as they called it. 4 It doesn't appear that the business itself, 5 Uber, would be making this kind of income if they 6 didn't have drivers, that it is providing a service 7 which is an integral part of that business. 8 Based on a lot of that information, there 9 appears to be controlling factors in the10 relationship, and that's why the Department ruled11 the way they did --12 Q. All right.13 A. -- and then supported his information.14 Q. You heard testimony today. Is there15 anything in that testimony that makes you change16 your mind or feel that the Determinations were17 incorrect or might need to be modified?18 A. No, sir. I'll be honest with you, if I19 owned my own business, I would say and do and20 represent myself to the public as I please.21 Normally people that are true independent22 contractors, we consider them to be self-employed.23 And if they are self-employed, they would set their24 own rates and control their own destiny, in other

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1 words. 2 If someone guaranteed money and they 3 couldn't make it, I wouldn't be getting income from 4 somewhere else, such as that guarantee. The fact 5 that Uber guarantees these people will make $30 an 6 hour during certain time periods, bonuses, anything 7 of that nature in a normal position would be 8 considered wages. It would be considered subject to 9 taxation.10 Q. All right. And was there anything further,11 Ms. Taylor, that you needed to tell me with respect12 to the issue for the hearing today?13 A. No, sir.14 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: All right. Ms.15 Liss-Riordan, did you have further questions for Ms.16 Taylor?17 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: I don't at this time,18 no.19 HEARING OFFICER HOUSER: Okay. And, Mr.20 Wilson, did you have questions for Ms. Taylor?21 MR. WILSON: Yes. I just have a couple of22 questions.23 24




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1 conclude the hearing and thank you all for being 2 available. So long. 3 MR. WILSON: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 MS. LISS-RIORDAN: Thank you very much. 5 (Whereupon the hearing was 6 adjourned at 5:42 p.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

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1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 I, Carol H. Kusinitz, Registered 3 Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that the 4 foregoing transcript, Volume I, is a true and 5 accurate transcription, to the best of my abilities, 6 of a recording made on August 17, 2015. 7 8 9 10 Carol H. Kusinitz 11 Registered Professional Reporter 12 13 14 - - - - 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24


Uber Appeal Florida Driver Employee Hearing 08-17-2015 - Condensed

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Transcript of Uber Appeal Florida Driver Employee Hearing 08-17-2015 - Condensed