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Transsubjectivity: The Space Where Psychoanalysisand Architecture MeetValerie Tate Angel aa 115 East 61st Street, New York, N.Y., 10021, USAPublished online: 06 Nov 2010.

To cite this article: Valerie Tate Angel (2000) Transsubjectivity: The Space Where Psychoanalysis and Architecture Meet,International Forum of Psychoanalysis, 9:1-2, 76-83, DOI: 10.1080/080370600300055977

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Transsubjectivity: The Space Where Psychoanalysis and ArchitectureMeet

Valerie Tate Angel, New York, USA

Angel VT. Transsubjectivity: The Space Where Psychoanalysis and Architecture Meet. Int ForumPsychoanal 2000;9:76–83. Stockholm. ISSN 0803–706X.

The use of space as an image for engagement is the framework of the dialogue between architect,Richard Meier, and psychoanalyst, Valerie Tate Angel. The interrelated nature of architecture andpsychoanalysis heightens the awareness of experience in the self’s relation to intimate spaces.Thehomogeneity between architecture and psychoanalysis is the bringing together of a sense ofopenness and a freedom of possibilities in the place where one lives.

Key words:Psychoanalysis, space, mutuality, architecture, engagement

Valerie Tate Angel, M.S.W., 115 East 61st Street, New York, N.Y. 10021, USA

Through understanding the interrelated nature ofarchitecture and psychoanalysis, the self trans-cends into deeper encounters in intimate spaces.The architect and the psychoanalyst establishrelationships within intimate spaces. The architectshapes space by processing images into forms andthe psychoanalyst shapes space by composingunformulated images into language. The Frenchphilosopher, Gaston Bachelard states, “when theimage is new, the world is new” (1:48).

Richard Meier, the recipient of the 1984 PritzkerPrize, an award as noteworthy as the Nobel prize,spoke with me at his office in New York City, toengage in a dialogue regarding psychoanalysis andarchitecture. The office is an open, airy and lightspace with architectural models surrounding thespace. The feeling is of works in progress. Themeeting took place in a conference room with largeexpansive windows overlooking the open spaces ofNew York. There was a rectangular dark woodconference table with eight chairs. Richard Meiersat at the head of the table, near the door. I sat at theside, two seats away from him. There was a senseof accessibility and engagement as our meetingprogressed. I originally met Richard Meier in theSpring of 1998, at the New York HistoricalSociety, where he was a panelist at a symposiumon the preservation of New York City landmarksand architecture. The use of space as an image forengagement framed the discussion of our meeting.

Gaston Bachelard, in his book,The Poetics ofSpace,reflects from a phenomenological view-

point how our homes and shelters can shape ourthoughts and memories. Bachelard comments onthe, “paradox of a phenomenology of the imagina-tion, which is: how can an image, at times veryunusual, appear to be a concentration of the entirepsyche? How – with no preparation – can thissingular … image, react on other minds and inother hearts, despite all the barriers of commonsense?… This transsubjectivity of the image couldnot be understood in its essence, through the habitof subjective reference alone” (1: xviii). Bachelardcontinues, “Only phenomenology – that is to say,consideration of the onset of the image in anindividual consciousness – can help us to restorethe subjectivity of images and to measure theirfullness, their strength and their transsubjectivity”(1: xix).

Within every psychoanalytic process there is anew beginning. In this new beginning of inter-related interactions there is a non knowing.Bachelard states that “non knowing is not a formof ignorance but a difficult transcendence ofknowledge” (1: xxxiii). To a psychoanalyst it isessential to listen to the exact words of theanalysand and co-create the underlying meaning.In the process of discovery between the analyst andanalysand, the power of words illuminate past andpresent experience. The nature of the experience oftwo subjectivities interrelating is called the analy-tic third. This concept developed by Ogden (2) issimilar to the space which Bachelard calls trans-subjectivity. For this article, the dialogue between

2000 Taylor & Francis. ISSN 0803-706X

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Richard Meier and myself is transcribed for thereaderto have his/her own experiencewith theinterrelated nature of architectureand psycho-analysis.

Interview With Richard Meier – September24, 1998

Angel: I recentlyvisited Barcelonaandwhile Iwaswalking in theRavelarea, thehistoric district,I cameacrossthe MuseoD’Art ContemporanideBarcelonain the PlacadesAngeles.It is remark-ableto notethejuxtaposition of amodernstructurein a historic district.

Meier: It’s especiallyremarkableif you cameacrossit withoutknowingthemuseumis locatedinthat area.

Angel: I knew the museumwaslocated in that

areaof Barcelonabut I didn’t expectto comeuponthe opennessof the square at that particularmoment.It mustbe an honorto haveyour designin the Catalancity of Barcelonasurroundedbyworks of Gaudi, Miro, andPicassoandDali.

Meier: It’s really terrific. I hopethe museumiskept up. Right now the museumis in an interimperiod between directorsandthat could evenbe achangefor thebetter.

Angel: The useof the spaceand its relation tothe environment reveals a mutual engagementbetween the two.

Meier: Right.Angel: What type of direction were you given

aboutthespace andthesurroundingarea?Meier: I went with the Mayor of Barcelonato

look at differentsitesandtogetherwe selectedthelocation. Whenwe started theareawasfilled with

Fig. 1. BarcelonaMuseumof ModernArt. PhotoScottFrances(Esto)

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dilapidatedbuildings andwe tore down someoldbuildingsto makethesquarepossibleandthespacepossible.

Angel: The PlacadesAngeles.Meier: I don’t know where that name came

from.Angel: Besides the square you designed a

building to containcontemporaryart.Meier:Well, wedidn’t knowwhatkind of art the

spacewould contain becausecontemporaryart ischangingandwedesigndifferentkind of spacestoaccommodate whatever.

Angel: You had no idea but your designaccommodatesa need.

Meier: It is an emerging museum and anemerging collection, which basically begins in1985.It’s not asif thecollectiongoesbacka longway. It is a museumof whateverhappens.

Angel: You build a spaceandwith this museumthe function follows the form and you build forwhateverhappens?

Meier: I think it workswell. Thedesignis largeandsmall spacesandlight spacesanddarkspacesall relating to the ramp and to the Placa desAngeles and you always know where you aresituatedin themuseum.It’s a goodmuseumandIthink it shouldwork well.

Angel: The spaceengageswith the function oftheexhibits.Themuseumfits in with thelandscapeof this city. In psychoanalysisthe more themeaningof one’s behavioris madeconsciousthemore the unconscious expands.This fosters thedevelopment of the self and hopefully the devel-opmentof theself within one’senvironment.Youwere able to build a structure for an evolvingcollection of art.

Meier:Well, it changesabit. Strangely, theyaddon to it now andthen.

Angel: Are you sayingthat you created some-thing that is ever-changing?

Meier: Thespacedoesn’tchangebut whatgoesinto it changesand they might try to modify thespaceaccording to the exhibits.

Angel: I noticedthat thereareseveraldifferentexhibits going on simultaneouslysuch as video,painting,andsculpture.

Meier: Very different projects.Angel:WhenI visitedthemuseum,I noticedthe

light. I think theuseof light andtheangles of thespaceinvite the viewer to look around the corner,to go into the next exhibit. The environmentis

most welcoming and there is a co-creating, acohabitationbetween thespace,theexhibit andtheviewer. I wonderhow you are able to bring thataltogether.When did you becomeinterested inbecomingan architect?

Meier: I was always interestedin architecture,from thetime I wasyoung.I didn’t haveto choose.A lot of peopleare lucky when they know whatthey want to do. It is a fortunate thing, butsometimesa personneverdecides.

Angel: You werefortunate.What’s thecreativechallengeof eachproject?

Meier: Well, it really dependson the project.Sometimesyou wonder how you ever becameinvolved in a project. Someprojectscan be verylimited and other projectsare much freer. Everyprojectis differentandyou don’t really knowuntilyou get into the project. I think, for me, themuseumin Barcelonawasfreebecausetherewererelatively few people involved. There was nodirector at the time and the limitation was thebudget,the amount of space, and therewas littleoutsideinterference.

Angel: The design and form is before thefunction.

Meier: Absolutely.Angel: When you designdo you think of the

function?Meier: You think of the spacein termsof how

peoplerelateto it. What it means. How it will beused.

Angel.Thespace is howapersonengagesin theenvironmentyou created. In the creating processyou are creating inner and outer space.Do youbeginfrom an internalplace?

Meier: I don’t think I begin from oneplaceorwhereonethingtakesprecedenceoveranother.It’sabackandforth thing.You think abouttheinternalworking and you think aboutwhat that meansintermsof theoutside.It goeson all the time.

Angel: You’re creating a spacefor people tocome to which is similar to the playwright whowrites a play and the audience comesto seetheplay.Whenwatchingtheplay, theaudienceis ableto enterinto a “sharedcreativeexperience” (3).

Meier: It’s thesamething.Angel:A personwhoentersyourbuildinghasan

experiencewith the imageof the space.Meier: You can’t predict who will come. You

know peoplewil l come.Angel: A personwill cometo seethe placenot

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justwhatis inside.Thespaceyoucreate takesonalife of its own.At whatpoint in thecreativeprocessdo you let go?

Meier: Prettyquickly.Angel: Pretty quickly?Meier:Soonafterits completed.Almostthenext

day.Angel: Almost the nextday?Meier: Well, it pretty amazinghow fast that

happens.Angel:Tell memoreaboutthelettinggoprocess.Meier:Assoonasthespaceisoccupiedbypeople

whoareintendedto occupyit, it takesover. It’s likewhenyou moveinto a houseevenif someoneelseworksontheinteriorandit’s all donefor you,whenyouoccupythespace,youtakeit over.

Angel: The personwho occupiesthe spacehashis/herownengagementwith thespace.Theletting

go happensimmediately andyou go on to thenextproject.

Meier: Hopefully you havesomethingto go onto.

Angel: You hope.Meier: Thereare separate projectsgoing on at

different stages.One may be underconstruction,while anotheris being designedand eachprojecthasit own time. Eachonehasa time schedule.

Angel:Your lastcompletedprojectin theStates,TheGettyCenterin Los Angeles,took a long time.

Meier: Fourteenyearsof time.Angel: Fourteenyearsof your life?Meier: A long time.Angel: I understand that the texture of the

building, the travertine limestone envelops theenvironment.

Meier: The textureis a part of it.

Fig. 2. TheGetty Center,Los Angeles,PhotoScottFrances(Esto)

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Angel: Do you have a hallmark, a specialcharacteristic that you areassociatedwith?

Meier: Not really—somepeopleassociatemewith white.White really takeson color. It takesonthecolorof theday,thecolorof thelight, thecolorof the season.It takes on the color of whatsurroundsit.

Angel: White takeson the color.Meier: It’s really the color that’s aroundit, the

color of thenight, thecolor of theday.Angel: The light of the day.Meier: Exactly, but it’s neverreally white.Angel: Thespaceyoubuild cohabitateswith the

environment.Do youfind thereis a transformationthattakesplacewhenyouareworking onprojects?

Meier: It really depends.The fun part is in thedesignand the rest is getting it done.If you areworking on a designyou are in your own worldthinking aboutit andthenyougetthedesignto thepoint of getting it built. The nutsandbolts is thatpart.

Angel: And the fun part?Meier: It’s about 10. Some projects you feel

personally closer to while other projects aresometimesmore bureaucraticand you feel moredistant.If it’s a good project with lots of peopleinvolved you may not feel aspersonally involvedaswith somethingsmaller.

Angel: Do you havea preference?Meier: I like themboth. I think thereis a good

balance.I don’t want to do too muchof onethingso I like different things—largescaleand smallscale.

Angel: As long asyou havespaceandlight anddiscoverhow to get from onepoint to another.

Meier: Thewholerouteor circulation—thewayyou movethroughthespace.

Angel: How to get from hereto there.Meier: That’s whatarchitectureis all about.Angel: Tell me more aboutthat.Meier: It’s abouthow to go from hereto there

andwhat thatexperienceis like. A persondoesn’tsay I want to get from hereto there– but that’swhat thearchitectdoes.

Angel: It’s akin to thepsychoanalytical process.A persondoesn’t saythat theywantto discover.Aperson talks about their symptoms and in themutual engagementof the analytic processhope-fully the person discovers the roots of his/herissuesratherthana relief of symptoms.It is hopedthat the thinking mind of the presenthelps the

patient move toward positive self-experiences. Ialwayswonderwhat thepersonis about.

Meier:That’ssimilar to figuringoutspace.Mostpeopledon’t knowaboutspaceandtherelationshipof spaceandhow to figureout the space.

Angel: In psychoanalysis the term “potentialspace”asdevelopedby theBritish analyst Winni-cott means the space where“meaningful commu-nication” takesplace(4). It seemsas thoughyouinterpret how to use space. It’s a processofengagementand co-creating. As I sit in youroffice, I seemanymodels.

Meier: A model gives the architect a way toimaginemoreclearly.

Angel: It givesyou dimensionanddepth.Meier: I think modelsarea goodway to convey

an idea. People understand models a lot moreclearly than they understanddrawings. A persongivesyou somethingandyou work it out.

Angel: You mentionedthatyou wantedto beanarchitectfrom anearly age.

Meier: It wasabout13 or 14.Angel: Wereyou exposedto something?Meier: No, but I workedin anarchitect’soffice

in high schooland I worked on construction andgot a senseof what it wasabout.

Angel: And now you know?Meier: Now I know just a little bit more.Angel: What areyour projectsnow?Meier:Theprojectsareall over.We’refinishing

a housein Florida,andI hopeit doesn’t gethit bythe hurricane, and a church in Rome, a smallmuseum in Rome, and an office building inGermany.Lots of different projects.

Angel: That’s quite anexpanse.Meier: They aretotally different.Angel: Tell me a little about the Church in

Rome.Designingachurchprobably conjuresmanydifferent imageson many levels, spiritual, emo-tional, existential.

Meier: Certainly.Angel: It’s different from a museum.I don’t

know your backgroundbut perhaps when youdesigna churchone possibility is that a person’sreligiousbelief is illuminated.

Meier: It certainly makes you think aboutsomethingyou might not usuallythink about.

Angel: What is thatsomethingyou arereferringto?

Meier:For instance.In thisparticularplacewhatshoulda churchbe like? What kind of spacedo

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peoplewantto go to?How will thelight comeintothe space?How will the light change?In certainways it’s like the rest of my work. It’s not anundergroundchurch.Theform is differentandthespaceis different but I am doing just what I do.

Angel: And eachpersonwill havehis/herownrelationshipto that space,andwith the imageyoucreatedfor thatchurch.Eachpersonwill beshapedby his/herown experienceof the meaningof theimage.What liberty did you havein designingachurchfor theVatican?

Meier: This was a competitionand I won andfortunatelythe Vaticanliked thedesign.

Angel: You seemto get satisfaction from that.Meier: Most of the time.Angel: You won the competition. Where in

Romeis thechurch to bebuilt?Meier: It’s in a working class district about

twentyminutesfrom thecenterof Rome.It’s asifit werelocatedin theBronx.It changesthecontextof thewholeenvironment.

Angel: The church is for the people of aneighborhood.It soundsthrilling.

Meier: It’s terrific.Angel: Becauseit’s a church in Rome.Meier: It’s Rome. It’s everything. It’s in a

historical center– a place in history-in a presentmoment– it’s not isolated.It’s like awork of art ina museum.It’s in a context which allows it tochangethat context.

Angel:It changes the context of the entireenvironment.

Meier: Well, the place is very different fromwhen webeganthere.It’s in adistrict that’stwentyminutesfrom the centerof Rome.It’s a churchtocelebrate the Year 2000. It’s a church for theneighborhood. The church will celebrate theneighborhood.Its armswill reachout to a greaterareathantheneighborhood.

Angel:That’squitesymbolicto think in termsofachurchreachingpasttheconfinesof thestructure.Therecertainlyseemsto beacohabitationbetween

Fig. 3. RomeChurch,PhotoScottFrances(Esto)

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your projectsand the environmentand how youunderstandtheuseof space.

Meier: It hasan effect which is far greaterthanthe useof the object.You’re very goodat pullingtheseideastogether.I just createmy projects.

Angel: Theeffect is far greater thantheobjects.Thestructuresyoucreatehaveanenergywhichco-blendsthespaceyoucreatewith thefunctionof theproject.It’s asthoughhopefullythe architecthasasocialresponsibilityto theenvironment.

Meier:You arewriting anarticleon themeetingof psychoanalysis andarchitecture.

Angel: Haveyou evergiven any thoughtto theconcept of the meeting of psychoanalysisandarchitecture?

Meier: I guessover thirty yearsago I was inanalysisand tried to deal with that but I don’trememberit goingvery far.

Angel: The artists, writers, and actors in mypractice at first express a discomfort regardinganalytic work and then experiencethe processasliberating and become more curious and lessfearful. As awarenessabout the unconsciousincreases,apersonhasgreaterinsightinto thoughtsandfeelings.

Meier: I don’t rememberanydirectarchitecturalanalogy.

Angel: As psychoanalysismovesfrom a one-person psychology to a two-personpsychologythereis an emphasis on illuminating the pastandco-creatingandco-constructing meaningswith theanalyst.Within thespacethearchitectcreatesandthe space the analyst and patient co-construct,spacecan be conceptualized as a metaphor forengagement.

Meier: Right.Angel: There is a blending, a cohabitation

between the architect and the environment. Abuildingtakesonapresencein thelandscapeof theenvironmentandtheimageof theform impactsonthe individual. The architectbuilds spacewhichwill contain,andtheanalyst is thecontainer.Thereis the relationshipbetweenthe containerand thecontained,but that’s for anothermeeting.

Meier: As you developthe article further andthink aboutwhat we talkedaboutyou cancontactme to talk further.

Angel: I’ll give you thearticle to read.Meier: There may be ideas I haven’t thought

about.Angel: Thankyou.

Reflectionson InterviewIn the early 1970’s RichardMeier was part of agroupof architectsknownasthe“New York Five”(5). He assertedhis individual style of classicalmodernismthroughreinterpreting the work of LeCorbusier(6). During the time I waswriting thispaper,I took a walk into a major bookstoreandsurveyedthe books in the architecturesection.Ibeganto talk with a NY architect, M. Peckham,who mentioned that the architecthasa gift to seethree dimensionally. I discussedthe architect’sperceptionof space and the ability to engageinspacewhenI met with RichardMeier becausetheanalyst also is concerned with perception. Apsychoanalystunderstandsthree dimensionallywhen reflecting upon a person’s self experience.This includesthe continuity of self, the cohesive-nessof self andtheaffective colorationof positiveandnegativeimagesof self (FosshageJ. Personalcommunication 7/28/99).

To understandwherearchitecturemeetspsycho-analysis, my first association was to Freud’swriting on the uneasinessof culture in “Civi liza-tion andits Discontents” (7). I thought of Freud’swork on Leonardoda Vinci (8) where Freud’svision setthestagefor thepsychoanalyticexplora-tion of art. Light imagesare also significant in“Mourning and Melancholia”, when Freudstates“the shadowof the object fell upon the ego” (9).While I spokewith RichardMeier,I becameawareof howboththearchitectandtheanalystusespaceasametaphorfor engagement.TheBritish psycho-analyst Winnicott eloquently conceptualizespo-tential space as located “between the subjectiveobject and the object objectivity perceived, be-tweenme-extensionsandthenot-me” (10:100).

Concluding RemarksThe homogeneitybetweenarchitecture and psy-choanalysisis the bringing togetherof opennessand a freedomof possibilitiesin the placewhereonelives.WhenMeierstatesthatheis notbuildinganundergroundchurch,I understood thesymbolicimportanceof light andspace.Illuminationof lightentersourpsychein botharchitectural andpsycho-analytic spaces. Richard Meier, a talented andgifted man, useshis abilities to create spaceinwhich each of us can experience a senseofengagement. Hopefully a person can seek his/her

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creativepotential,not only from creatingobjects,but also through living fully each day. Wherepsychoanalysisand architecture meet is in thevitality and alivenesseachattendsto as a personconnects,accepts,andunderstandshow to fit intothis world.

References1. BachelardG. Thepoeticsof space.Boston:BeaconPress,1969.2. OgdenT. Subjectsof analysis.Northvale,N.J.: JasonAronson,

1994.3. Emde R. Fantasyand beyond: A current developmentalper-

spectiveon Freud’s “Creative writers and day-dreaming”.In:PersonE, FonagyP,FigueiraS,ed.OnFreud’s“Creativewritersandday-dreaming”.New Haven:Yale UniversityPress,1995.

4. DavisM, WallbridgeD. Boundaryandspace.NewYork: Bruner/Mazel,1981.

5. JodidioP. RichardMeier. Germany:Taschen,1995.6. Cruickshank D, ed. Sir Banister Fletcher’s: A history of

architecture.20thedition.London:ArchitecturePress,1996.7. FreudS.Civilization andits discontents.London:HogarthPress

1953:SEXXI.8. FreudS. LeonardoDa Vinci and a memory of his childhood.

London:HogarthPress1953:SEXI.9. Freud S. Mourning and melancholia.London: Hogarth Press

1953:SEXIV.10. Winnicott DW. Playing and reality. New York: Basic Books,

1971.

Summary in SpanishAngelTV. Transubjetividad:el espaciodondeel psicoana´lisisy la arquitecturaseencuentran.

La utilizacion del espaciocomounaimagenparala relacionesla estructuradeldialogoentreel arquitectoRicardoMeieryla psicoanalistaTate Angel. La natural interrelacion dearquitecturay psicoana´lisis logra el conocimiento de laexperienciaen la relacion del self con los espaciosıntimos.La homogeneidadentre arquitecturay psicoana´lisis es elaporteconjuntode una sensacio´n de aperturay libertad deposibilidadesenel lugardondeunovive.

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