TRANSCRIPT OF SENIOR MINISTER GOH CHOK TONG’S INTERVIEW WITH 5th MIDDLE EAST JVP JOURNALISTS ON 7 JULY 2010 AT ISTANA

SM Goh: “Welcome. Please be seated. Yes, I extend my warm welcome to all of you. I hope you’ve had a good and productive visit so far. I know you have been going around asking questions of Ministers, Ministries and, of course, also people walking around town. To give me a sense of your familiarity with Singapore, let me ask how many of you have been to Singapore before on your own? Almost all of you?"

Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi: “No, only one of us has been before this.”

SM Goh: “No, no, he (Mr Neil Farley) has been. No, Mr Chacko has been. Well, then good. So, this is a chance, I think, for a mutual exchange of views, for us to learn from you and for you to learn something from us, I hope. I think you’ve got most of the answers you wanted by talking to the Ministers on the details, on financial relations, economic relations and so on. I will be open to follow up on the larger picture which you may want to ask me about trends and challenges. So, with that, I welcome you and I open the meeting to this discussion. Have you decided on the lead speaker? Mr Tabrizi?”

Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi: “Well, actually, it has not been decided that I should be the lead speaker, but anyway, I can start (Remarks in Arabic). First of all, I would like to thank the Singapore authorities, including yourself, for this invitation and the very excellent reception and treatment. I’m talking on my own behalf we had here and I personally enjoyed. It was very pleasant for me to visit Singapore because as a journalist, sometimes we come across what is happening in this part of Asia. So, now, I got the opportunity to see and to actually visit the place. I should congratulate the authorities, including yourself, for the hard and difficult work they have done and are doing and plan to do. Hard and difficult from this point of view that what we learnt here is your country, though a small one, comprised of different ethnic groups and that’s not an easy job for administration. But still, we have not read in the past decade or so that there are any ethnic troubles here. So, that means special care is taken by the authorities to run this country. So, I once again offer my thanks and congratulations to you.”

SM Goh: “Thank you. Looking at the newspapers, at least I’ve come across your newspaper and also Gulf Times. When I passed through Dubai or when I went to UAE, I think these were the two papers which I normally would pick up. The rest, I’m sorry to say, I’m less familiar.”

Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber: “As my colleague said, we are mostly from Arabic countries, we have only two from Iran with us. We welcome them also. On behalf of my colleagues, we were very inspired from the first time visit here. Since a long time ago, we hear about the Singapore experiment and how it

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transformed many countries and your flag is raised now in many continents. I think you are leading a very successful experiment since independence, a Western and Singaporean experiment, and how it could be developed more and how they can exchange. This happened in UAE as well as many other countries.I would like to thank for the warm welcome which we’ve had and the good hospitality and generosity. We hope that this visit can open more visits in the future for both of our countries.”

SM Goh: “Good. Mr Tabrizi, you are very insightful. Most the visitors we have to Singapore, when I have such a session, they would normally notice the physical environment.”

Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi: “I beg your pardon.”

SM Goh: “The physical environment. In other words, they compliment us on the buildings which they can see, the infrastructure, the economy. That’s what they notice. Not many people would comment on the social cohesion, the harmonious, multicultural, multireligious society which is, of course, a very important aspect of nation-building. And then your word, ‘experiment’, is also the right word because Singapore is, indeed, an experiment in building a nation. As you know, we left Malaysia in 1965. We had racial riots in 1964 and also a minor one in 1969. 1964 was before our independence, leaving Malaysia in 1965. 1969 wasaffected by events in Malaysia. So, from then on, we made strenuous efforts to ensure that racial riots, religious riots would never happen again in Singapore because we saw innocent people dying, being injured for no good reason other than the fact that you are of a different race from me, of a different religion from me. Totally senseless. So, determined efforts made to achieve this. So, it’s an experiment which thankfully for us has succeeded so far.

“In terms of the economy, it’s also an experiment because we have no natural resources. Water was imported from Malaysia, food is imported. At that time, we grew some pigs and some chickens, but today, the pigs are gone, vegetable farms are all gone. So, it’s an experiment in creating a new economy, no guidance, no model to follow. So, experiment. We use the term ‘laboratory’ for measures, for policies and so on, but ‘experiment’ is a better word.”

Mr K T Chacko: “Looking back at the Singapore of the 1960s and the Singapore of today, do you think your ambition, your dreams, your goals have been achieved? Are you satisfied with the Singapore of today?”

SM Goh: “We have achieved many of the goals we set out in the early days, but we are not satisfied. I will explain why. Upon independence, the first goal, of course, would be to hold the people together and then to grow the economy. The two are interrelated. If I am unable to hold the people together, I mean, there is social disharmony, there is no way I can grow the economy. And if you do not do so, the economy and the pie doesn't grow but the population grows

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and people would be fighting over limited resources. Then there will be big problems. So, in terms of economic growth, we have, of course, succeeded. In 1965, we regarded ourselves as belonging to the Third World developing countries. Then, very slowly, we moved up to become a middle-income country and today, most people would regard Singapore as a developed economy. So, on that, we have succeeded. Now, of course, we look at the infrastructure, the buildings, the roads, the subways, the telecommunications, the connectivity between Singapore and other countries, the airport, the sea port, we have succeeded in attaining our goals of building the economy.

“Then of course, the other goal was the social harmony and social cohesion. If you had time, you would have discovered that we actually set up many grassroots organizations. We have an overall framework to actively get the people to mix and to interact. We started off by talking about tolerance for one another’s beliefs, one another’s culture and one another’s religion. Tolerance is passive. We actually become active and we have certain policies and measures to achieve that. For example, in public housing, we ensure in public housing that there is a representation of Singapore in each housing estate, in each housing block. We ensure that it is not a block occupied mainly by Chinese to the exclusion of Malays and Indians and others. We also ensure that no block became a dwelling just for the Malays, for example. You leave to natural events, most people would tend to live in a same block with people of the same kind. You may end up with a Muslim block, a Hindu block, a Christian block and a Buddhist block. Then you are going to have big problems within the housing estate. So, that is a conscious policy, what you call spreading out the population throughout Singapore. So, that’s one key feature.

“Now, when I say we are not satisfied, because on the softer side, what I would call the ‘soft surround’ of Singapore, we have a long way to go. We do not regard ourselves as a naturally gracious society. If you don’t have the rules of fining people, you’ll discover very quickly that the city will become very dirty, people litter quite naturally. It’s the rules, the fines which compel them to behave better. So, that part, we have not quite succeeded. Graciousness is more there than before, but remember, we came from the countryside and the villages, the Malays call it the ‘kampongs’. When we move into high-rise blocks, we regard the external space like a river in a poor country, you just discard everything into the river. Here, sometimes, they just throw things out of the window. So, we have anti-killer litter laws because some of the litter actually killed some people in the past. Now, you would be surprised the people actually threw out their unwanted television sets out of the window and it still happens today. So, we are not satisfied. Hence, there’s an ongoing task, a better behaviour and a better attitude in a natural way, not because of the laws and fines that we have. On that part, we believe we still have some way to go. And in terms of religious harmony and racial harmony, we are very conscious that things can go wrong very quickly. Events outside can have an impact on Singapore. You’ve got to watch that very carefully to make sure a minor incident triggered by events

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outside will not result in greater problems in Singapore. So, it’s a work in progress.

“On the economic side, we have done well, but is there an end point? There’s no end point because this is a very competitive world. We are watching China. Whatever we can do, we believe one day, China can also do. Then where does that leave us? Even leaving aside China, you have countries in the region competing with us to be an air hub, to be a sea hub. On that part, we have to keep running ahead, but can you? We have to. Hence, we are never be satisfied that we have arrived. We will keep on improving. And education, for example, we are still today talking about how to improve the education system, the teaching of mother tongue - Chinese, Malay, Tamil - to a migrant population whose main language is foreign. English is the main language for Singaporeans now. That’s a foreign language for us. Our own tongue - Malay, Indian, Chinese - they are actually a second language for us. We are trying to keep up the level of our mother tongue in terms of expertise, communication and writing skills. We are not satisfied that we have done enough. We can do more there.”

Mr Hamed Al Sewerky: “No, I mean. . .”

SM Goh: “After him. After him, I will give to you, please. Mr Jaber, yeah, you first.”

Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber: “I mean, you said what China could leave you, I think it could leave you with good business leadership. You have been very successful here. I have a question - in view of current world economic crisis and the lack of human resources here, what are the main challenges you are facing and what plans you are putting in mind to cope with it?”

SM Goh: “We are a price-taker. Singapore’s economy doesn’t depend on the domestic situation alone, it depends very much on what happens outside. So, the global economy would have a great impact on the economic performance of Singapore. In that sense, we have to take what comes outside, whether it’s a financial crisis or protectionism or poor growth. So, we take that as something beyond us, an extraneous factor. Well, we track the trends in the world. The global economy in the coming years, I think, would face very serious challenges. First, they have to reform, as they are trying to do, the financial industry, make sure the institutions would not commit mistakes or engage in excesses which caused the financial crisis. Then, the world will also have to adjust to the emergence of China and India. There will be a rebalance of economic wealth in the world. We have to track where the world will be going and try to take advantage of the changes. We are focusing, for example, more attention on China because we think there’s a growth area.

“Then what do we do internally? We are continuously upgrading our economy. We started off by being a labour-intensive hub for multinational companies. They

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came over here to take advantage of the semi-skilled Singaporeans and their very low wages. After a while, we succeeded, not enough labour for that, we moved up into skilled industries and after a while again, you can only do so much given the finite number of skilled workers in Singapore. And, of course, income will not go up so high just based on skills. So, we are now moving towards a common term called knowledge economy, an economy based on ideas. Animation in IT is an example. That is based on ideas. If you can create something and people buy your DVDs, you can protect the intellectual property, well, you get something. We are moving into research and development of pharmaceuticals and, of course, if we can discover something new, then that creates wealth. So, we are moving from that area into an education hub, into a medical hub.

“Then that comes down to what will be the constraints? It’s talent. It’s not just quantity of human resources, it’s talent. You want to move into R&D, you want to go into animation, an education centre, medical centre, you must have specialists. Talent is required and talent is not sufficient in Singapore. Local population is 3.2 million, you cannot have talent to do so many things. So, our policy will be to attract talent from outside and if you can point some of your talented Arabs to Singapore, we would be very happy to welcome them. We are making an effort, you know.”

Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber: “We have journalists.”

SM Goh: “What you write is important. This is a good place for Middle East people to work. We have many Iranians working in our research and development facilities, Iranian students studying over here.”

Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber: “Yes, I know that some leaders were staying here and they copied everything.”

SM Goh: “Yes, please.”

Mr Hamed Al Sewerky: “Yes, Mr Senior Minister. Actually, I have a comment on the Singapore experiment. Do you think that using the word ‘experiment’ is not in the right place and the experiment by itself is a timely thing? I mean, you do an experiment and it failed or succeeded and that’s it. I rather prefer to give it like a more permanent name and that takes me to the question, do you think that Singapore has a chance of lasting and existing in the near or far future in terms of globalization and civilization clashes? Are you going to be dominated by a bigger or stronger civilization? Another point, I believe Singapore has chosen to be a part of the Western civilization by choosing the English language as its first language. If you can..."

SM Goh: “Yes. Now first, I think a very brief reaction to the term ‘experiment’. There could, of course, be a better term, but in many of our policies, when we are

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confronted with a new problem, first thing we do would be to search the literature and search the experience of other countries. What have they done? No point reinventing the wheel, learn from their mistakes, learn from their successes. Then we adapt to suit Singapore’s society. Sometimes, we could not find a good model. Then we have to make judgments and there are times when it's trial and error. You try this, it did not wok, then you have to do something else. So, in that sense, it’s an experiment, maybe with a small ‘e’.

“Your question is one which cannot be answered if you take a long-term view. In a short-term view, medium-term view, of course, we are confident that the Singapore we have in mind will carry on as it is with a lot of changes and adaptations. In fact, prior to your question, many people have asked some years ago whether Singapore will survive Lee Kuan Yew because it’s a very unique country and they knew the leader, Lee Kuan Yew: tremendous determination, tremendous vision, tremendous intellect. He built up this place and the country was shaped after him, after one man’s vision, one man’s values and to find another leader like him is impossible in the short term. So, that was the question, could it succeed?

“Well, Lee Kuan Yew did not run Singapore on the basis of a one-man show. He built institutions and he went out to look for good people, the ablest in Singapore, to come into politics and many of us were not interested in politics. We were what some people would termed ‘technocrats’. We were bankers, we were civil servants, army officers, technocrats. We were actually persuaded to come into politics. Hence, the system of looking for the best people to run Singapore with well-built institutions allows us to continue building on what Lee Kuan Yew had done. So, that’s in the immediate term, in the medium term. We can see for ourselves Singapore carrying on with such institutions and such leadership succession plans in the coming years.

“Over the longer term, we will face two major external challenges, one on the economic side, the other is geopolitical. On the economic side, it depends on our ability to adapt. It is possible that no matter what you do one day, we only have four million people plus foreign talent coming in, foreign guests coming in, six million, limited space. Can you compete against giants - a vibrant Thailand, a vibrant Malaysia and Indonesia with so much more resources? Can you compete? I am looking at a 30, 50-year timeframe. Well, if you can’t then of course talent will flow out of Singapore. The foreign talent will be the first to move and then local talent will also move because people will look for challenging jobs with good income. Once they move out, we will be reduced to a small outpost. So, that’s always a possibility which we are planning for. So we keep on adapting and changing. On the economic side, I am more confident that even 30 years, 40 years from now, we should be able to do well. And the reasoning is this - we are giving our people the best education, the best livable environment, fiscal, social order and our needs are quite modest. That’s what we console ourselves. We need to look after the livelihood of about four, five million

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people, Singaporeans and I think we can do that. China, Vietnam, the whole region is growing. We may not be on top, Number One or Number Two at the point of time, we may be Number Four, Number Five, but Number Four, Number Five, looking after the livelihood of five million people with a prosperous region, we think we can do it. It is possible.”

Mr Hamed Al Sewerky: “About the civilization?”

SM Goh: “Correct. So, civilization, geopolitical side, well, there is no Singaporean civilization, but we pride ourselves that we have a long historical civilization. We are Chinese, we learn English. Of course, we are affected, but we would not regard ourselves as belonging to the English civilization, but we do belong to the Chinese civilization. Many of our religious practices, other than Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, what you call traditional religions, it’s very Chinese and trace our roots back to the Chinese civilization and Chinese culture. We may not be able to read the classics of the Chinese, but the values are internalized in many of us. Over the longer term, will Singaporeans become very different from the Chinese in China? We are different in many ways, but civilization-wise, can we become different? Answer is probably so, but we are making a conscious effort to get Chinese Singaporeans to retain their knowledge of Chinese. So, Mother tongue is, therefore, a very important requirement for us and, therefore, we are now sending students to study in China and many volunteer now to study in China. If we succeed over there, we still have the Chinese civilization of which we are a part.

“We are doing the same thing with India. The Indians, we reach out to the Indian civilization and we are emigrating new Indians into Singapore. The new Indians who come will become part of us, they will have the roots to India. So, while older Singaporeans might not have the same kind of understanding of Indian culture, Indian civilization, the new Indians will ensure that we have links to India. Malays, they are here, Indonesia, Malaysia nearby, less of a problem. They are already part of the Malay civilization within the area and they have the religion. Malays are Muslims, so that’s part of their civilization and Islam will never go away. They have the civilization in them.

“If I want to extrapolate to say that we are a multicultural civilization, which is what Singapore is, that will carry on, I think, but we will become more cosmopolitan because we are attracting people from outside the normal three races. So, you have Caucasians coming from Europe, you have some Americans, Japanese, Koreans. Middle East we have some, not enough, but we are attracting. So, in 50 years’ time Singapore will be even more multiracial. But we use the term cosmopolitan at the time, more people from the world. That might become the Singapore civilization, a cosmopolitan civilization in Singapore.

“Geopolitically, we can’t say. Geopolitically, anything can happen, whether it’s in the medium term or longer term. Just remember that the Japanese came all the

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way from Japan at one time and took over Singapore. So, who can say some big power from somewhere might not come over here and take over not just Singapore but also parts of the countries surrounding us? That we can’t say. What we can do is to make sure and do what we can to defend Singapore. We have the Singapore Armed Forces and, very importantly, we practise diplomacy. Our foreign policy is to make friends with our neighbours, with countries around us and, in fact, countries all over the world and you will find that we are very active in building Asean, Asean-plus architecture and regional forums. We do all that, but if you take a long-term view, 100 years from now, given a small country, it’s difficult to say. Even bigger countries have disappeared. So, don’t talk about small countries.”

Mr Hamed Al Sewerky: “Thank you, sir.”

SMGoh: “Thank you.”

Mr Rashed Saleh Al Oraimi: “Your Excellency, thank you very much for your hospitality. We are really pleased here to be in your wonderful country. I have a question about the major elements other than economics, which you use to design your foreign policy. What are some of them?”

SM Goh: “Well, first make sure that we have very good people in the Foreign Ministry. Otherwise, the policies will depend on just perhaps the Prime Minister or the Foreign Minister. We have, therefore, very good professionals in the Foreign Ministry. The main tenet of our foreign policy is to maximize the number of friends we have and then ensure that amongst them, we have the powers that shape the world to be on our side, meaning our views and their views must coincide. Their core interests and our core interests coincide in some parts, not totally, but generally, in terms of strategic outlook, we share the same kind of views. That’s the approach that we have in our foreign policy. And in terms of the strategic consideration, as I mentioned just now, we are active in building this regional architecture and our belief is that the great powers of the world should be very much a part of Southeast Asia. If you do not have great powers of the world taking an interest in Southeast Asia, then there will be some big powers in the region which believe that they are Number One and then everybody must abide by what they say. Well, our policy is the US has an interest, the US must take an in interest in Southeast Asia and, of course, the US, being a global power, is very happy to do so.

“China also has a right to be a regional power, maybe later on, a global power. Well, you have China, you have US. Fifty years from now, which is the greater power, where’s the balance, we do not know but people think China may become heavier in 50 years’ time. Well, then Japan has to be here to balance, then India. We, therefore, actively brought India into Southeast Asia as a player. India in the past, I think, was not so keen in being an economic and political player in the region. Our policy is to bring all these people in and when there’s a balance

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amongst big powers and medium powers, I think a small country like Singapore can always manoeuvre within this arena. Otherwise, you have no independence. The big boys tell you, do this, you have to do that. But this big boy says do this, the other big boy says do this, we say, no, no, we have our own independent position. We do what is right for us, we are not a puppet of any big power. But we have room to manoeuvre, there is space for us.

“So our foreign policy is always to find space for Singapore, whether it’s economic space, political space or geopolitical space. We look for the area where, first, to create space for us, or find existing space for us, which is why I have been to Iran twice. I mean, Iran has got problems with the international community. So, we have our own independent policy, we’ve got to understand Iran. Don’t just go by what we read in the newspapers, especially since we read Western newspapers. We say, go on our own. I have been to Iran twice. I have met your leaders. So, I have my own view on Iran, right? And I have been to UAE many times and Qatar, and Saudi Arabia and so on."

Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi: “Excuse me, sir, your own view on Iran? You said you had your own view?”

SM Goh: “Yes, yes, yes.”

Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi: “Can you please share?”

SM Goh: “Well, I will be happy to share with you my view. Iran belongs to an ancient civilization, but looking forward, Iran has potential to be a great regional power and maybe even going beyond the region. And I think, speaking frankly, that Iran is making a mistake in pursuing its nuclear ambitions. Yes, of course, I understand the claim and the statement made by your leaders that this is for peaceful purposes. So, no problem as far as Singapore is concerned and, in fact, as far as the world is concerned, if Iran pursues its nuclear ambition for peaceful purposes, that means nuclear energy and so on, that is Iran’s right. We can’t take it away from Iran and we support that. But if Iran, let’s say, is vague, your statement is not vague, but your intent is vague, so most people may not believe that Iran doesn’t have the ambition to become a nuclear weapon threshold state and then, of course, if you are a nuclear weapon threshold state, what will be the next purpose? Maybe to move on to have a nuclear bomb.

“So, this is a part where, looking at Iran as a friend, from the point of foreign policy, even geopolitical strategic policy, we think it’s not a correct strategy to pursue. Of course, we understand Iran’s motivation to protect Iran’s security and sovereignty. If you have that ability militarily, then Iran will be protected, from Iran’s point of view, from other powers with their nuclear weapons and other powers with bigger military prowess. But from our own analysis, you can’t protect yourself just with just a few nuclear weapons. You can wipe off your enemies in the region. When you drop a few bombs, you wipe off not only your

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enemies, you also wipe off your friends in the region. Water will be affected, the air will be affected and the moment you do that, you can be sure that other bigger bombs will drop on Iran and Iran will be annihilated in a matter of days. No more Iran after that and very few Arabs left because you are in the region.”

Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi: “It is exactly because of this that Iran doesn’t want to have a nuclear war.”

SM Goh: “Yes, fair, correct. Therefore, Iran must be seen by the United Nations to be abiding by the IAEA transparency requirement. So this is a part which is a challenge for the international community, for Iran. On that part, you’ve got to make clear, the IAEA requirements are met.”

Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi: “Well, Iran is a member of NPT and all the NPT restrictions are going on there and there are TV cameras, fully controlled. So, actually, the United States is using this question of nuclear weapons as a pretext to put Iran under pressure because Iran, as Your Excellency knows, processing a nuclear bombs is of no use. Even the United States statesmen and politicians, they also know the same thing, that no developing nation will go after this type of weapons, but still they want to make the people know that Iran is going off to this weapon and that Iran is becoming very dangerous. So, this is just a sort of propaganda exploitation.”

SM Goh: “Yes. So my point is without getting into a debate on this, we therefore visited, not just myself but the other leaders from Singapore, Iran, to assess the situation for ourselves and not just be influenced by the United States. That is my basic point, which is why you are here. If we were totally influenced by the United States, we will not be inviting you over here. So, what I mean is that’s our independent foreign policy. We know what the game is about. You and I are not naive. There is a bigger game at play. So, we should not be sucked in by this bigger game. We have to look after our interests.”

Mr Touraj Shiralilou: “Yeah, because Iran respects this type of policy. So, two Iranian journalists are here.”

SM Goh: “That’s right. Please.”

Mr Hossam Abd El Naby: “Mr Senior Minister, the corruption rate in Singapore is the lowest all over the world and Singapore is the easiest place in the world to do business. How have you achieved that? What is your advice?”

SM Goh: “The point is how do we make Singapore the best place to do business?”

Mr Hossam Abd El Naby: “Corruption-free.”

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SM Goh: “You know, you must start at the top. The Chinese saying is if the beam at the top is not straight, the rest will be crooked, like building a house. So, you start at the top. The Number One man and the people in charge must be absolutely, in the eyes of the public, honest and must be so. Not just you are so, but you must be seen by the people that you are honest, you have integrity and people believe you, they trust you. Well, once you have that, then how do you make sure that that value percolates downwards? We set up the anti-corruption agency, prevention of corruption and we are very strict in terms of rooting out corruption. Anonymous allegations will be investigated. Of course, named allegations and so on, you know who they are, you investigate. So you pursue and to ensure that the corruption agency is not appointed just by the Prime Minister and sometimes do the bidding of the Prime Minister, the corruption agency’s director has to be approved by the President, who constitutionally has the right of veto.”

“Ours is a mixed system. The President has to take advice on many issues, but where the use of reserves financial reserves, the appointment of key office holders, he has a veto power. We, therefore, give this veto power to the President. So, the PM cannot just appoint his own man, to do his own bidding. So, the perception is, therefore, very important, plus the reality.”

“Then the other important element of this fight against corruption is pay of your public officials, the ministers. If you don’t pay your ministers well and ministers cannot afford to send their children to overseas universities, he may be looking for ways. He will not be on the take, but if a business friend says, don’t worry, I’ve got a business in somewhere, I’ll look after him, he will say, thank you very much. Please look after him. That’s how he starts. So, ministers must be paid well, officials must be paid well, down to the policemen on the beat, the traffic cop, the customs officers, must be paid well. By being paid well, we meant paid a market rate which he can earn if he was not doing that job. You see, if you are not a customs officer, you have to do another job, that must be the pay. So the customs officer is no less than what he can earn elsewhere. But from time to time, we do have individuals who are corrupt at the low level because they say, this is not good enough for me, I want something else, take advantage. We are very strict with those people. We catch them, we charge them in cou rt, they are fined, they are jailed and so on. So, it’s a whole system. It’s now more or less a value of Singaporeans, a clean society, honest society, that’s more or less the value for Singaporeans now.”

M rTouraj Shiralilou: “Sir, before you. . .”

SM Goh: “Let him follow up, yes. Follow-up, same question?”

Mr Touraj Shiralilou: “Yes, sir.”

SM Goh: “Okay, yes.”

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Mr Hossam Abd El Naby: “Same question, please. I just want to clarify this point. Is it allowed for a public servant to have his private business?”

SM Goh: “No, no.”

Mr Touraj Shiralilou: “Thank you, Senior Minister. I am from Iran. Back to the discussion that we have about my country. I would like to have a very short comment before raising my question. The comment is that the Supreme Leader of Iran, which is the highest-ranking authority politically and he is also a religious leader, has officially and openly declared that pursuing any kind of nuclear armament is religiously forbidden. This is just for the record.”

SM Goh: “Correct, yes, I am aware of that, yeah.”

Mr Touraj Shiralilou: “Thank you, Senior Minister. The Number Two comment is that, as Mr Najafi mentioned, Iran is a member to the IAEA, under all kinds of surveillance and I should say the inspectors travelling to the country, unlike many other countries which I don’t want to name in this session. So, it’s a different case. I would like to have His Excellency’s comment. What do you think of a nuclear-free Middle East? Do you think that Israel should be disarmed of its nuclear defence or not?”

SM Goh: “Well, first, if you can arrive at a nuclear-free world, I think that’s the goal of most countries. If you believe in a nuclear-free world, then surely it follows to a nuclear-free Israel. So, philosophically speaking, we support a nuclear-free Middle East and a nuclear-free world. Okay. But practically speaking, that’s a different matter and you’ve got to be realistic in this world and that comes with Israel’s perception of an existential threat to Israel. So, to have a nuclear-free Israel, you must ensure to the Israelis that they have a place in that part of the world forever and ever. Okay? What else? Yeah, please.”

Ms Boudur Khaled Al Mtery: “To achieve your goals, what is the cost?”

SM Goh: “To achieve?”

Ms Boudur Khaled Al Mtery: “Your goals, what is the cost? Do you believe that the cost to Singapore achieving its goals will be the environment or will you go toward a green policy? Will it slow down your achievement of the goals?”

SM Goh: “Yes, we are emphasizing more and more the environment and you have to balance economic growth with livability of a country. We can certainly grow much faster if we did not pay regard to the need for a green environment, but what is the point? I mean, Singaporeans, foreigners will say this is not the place for me to live; to work, yes, but to live in, no. So, there is this trade-off and the trade-off will come because the world, I think, will come to a certain

agreement on carbon emission and that’s going to affect Singapore because we have a petrochemical industry in Singapore. We are actually producing for the rest of the world. Now, these are very few, but the carbon footprint is in Singapore and we will be under pressure to reduce the carbon footprint and we may not be able to grow in future with industries that have big carbon footprints even though the products are from the rest of the world. So, it’s going to affect our growth. As to what the trade-off will be, what percentage we would not know, but certainly, our growth will be slower because of the need for looking after the environment. And we are consciously, where we can, taking effort to design buildings in such a way that you don’t have air-conditioning inside and you emit through your glass windows’ loss of heat. This is not carbon emission, just loss of heat. Then you need more energy. So, these measures are put in place. We are also experimenting with hybrid cars moving into green cars. There is cost involved.”

Mr Abbas Moussa: “Your Excellency, your national efforts of Singapore, you trying to build a strong and equipped army. Are there any turbulences for your country or from countries from the region?”

SM Goh: “The fear is a philosophical one. As a small country, now 700 square kilometres. When we started, it was about 600 square kilometres. We have grown through reclamation to 700 square kilometres and if we prosper, we are like a shining diamond which anybody with avarice in his eyes can simply put up his arm and take it because it’s sparkling. You just take it, right? And if the investors have the perception that Singapore can be easily taken by anybody, well, they are not going to put in petrochemical complex in Singapore, they are not going to put in high-rise buildings, permanent structures which they can’t take away. They will come here to trade, but to put investments here, sink in investments, they will not do so. We, therefore, have got to give confidence to Singaporeans and to investors that it is not so easy that a passer-by...”

Mr Abbas Moussa: “So, it’s just an indication for others that you can’t protect...”

SM Goh: “We protect ourselves, right. There is no, what you call, perception of a particular enemy because if you do that, then you create an enemy. That enemy is going to build an armed force bigger than yours. So, foreign policy plus defence policy must assure - I mean, if you speak frankly -- our neighbours that Singapore cannot take you over and there is no desire to take you over. If we have an armed force that is so powerful that our neighbours fear that we can take them over, then that’s troublesome for us, because then, they will be like we are on the other side. They will build a bigger one, so although you look at the armed forces, yeah, we build, but there is a balance. We do not fear one another but everybody must have that ability that if somebody from outside tries to take over the country militarily or threaten you militarily, we can defend ourselves.”

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Mr Abbas Moussa: “So, you mean that diplomatic approach is not the only solution for the defending the country?"

SM Goh: “No, you must have both, you must have both.”

Mr Abbas Moussa: “Your Excellency, may I have something related to the foreign policy issue, if you don’t mind. With regards to what you mentioned to an earlier question, what you just now have told my colleague, what do you think would be an option, instead of bringing India here, having nightmares of China bringing in United States, what would be an option, for example, thinking of a Southeast Asian union where you can have a single currency, a unified army and then stop all those nightmares?”

SM Goh: “First, it’s not realistic to think in terms of a Southeast Asian currency because we are at different stages of development and each country has its own monetary policies, fiscal policy and to have one single currency, it’s just not practical at all. And even in the case of the Euro, they discover over time that the single currency creates problems for many countries, different governments, different economic policies for one currency. You do not have the room for economic policies. That’s not all, I understand. But an integrated Southeast Asian economy, that’s what we are working towards. We are now talking about connectivity, airlines, airports, open skies for the whole place, telecommunications, sharing power grid and, of course, no tariffs for most of the products within the Southeast Asian countries. That’s what we do, but beyond just the economic side, there are also forums where the leaders, the ministers get together to discuss our common goals.”

Mr Abbas Moussa: “ASEAN?”

SM Goh: “ASEAN. Do not think that Singapore is the only country that worries about being taken over by others. Malaysia is not a very big country, compared to Indonesia. So, Malaysia has its own worries. Malaysia is not worried about Singapore because we are 3.75 million people, Malaysia has got 20 million, but others are much bigger than 20 million and Cambodia has its worries and Laos. Therefore, all of us, smaller countries, we try and create, as you put it, a larger Southeast Asian community. This is on track, creating a Southeast Asian community, creating a Southeast Asian economy and also creating a Southeast Asian security system, not a common defence system, but certain security understanding.”

Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber: “Your Excellency, as a multicultural and multireligious society, constitutionally do you have an occasion to distribute the high-ranking official jobs in Singapore? If not, how do you assure everybody is represented in the government and Parliament of your state?”

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SM Goh: “It’s a mix of this. The philosophy in Singapore is meritocracy. You promote people on the basis of meritocracy. The moment you change that, it’s very troublesome. It’s not just a ratio problem. Within the same race, you are going to create problems. Nepotism will creep in because I can promote people. So based on nepotism, I don’t have to use meritocracy. The underlying principle is meritocracy. When we do that, it is true that the Malays could be under­represented. They are at the lower educational level to start with, it is a smaller community, compared to the Chinese. So, when you have a job high up, there are three Chinese to one Malay competing for the job, so chances are due to the law of probability the Chinese will get it on the basis of meritocracy. The Indians are very exceptional in Singapore, small community, but big contribution. In Cabinet, off-hand, I think there are something like four Indians and one Malay, four or five. Can do a quick count?”

Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber: “How many?”

Mr Augustin Lee: “Four, I think.”

SM Goh: “Out of how many? I never count. Maybe out of 18 to 20. Out of 20, four. Law Minister is an Indian, the Coordinating Minister for Security is an Indian. Finance Minister is an Indian and Finance Minister was at one time Education Minister, looking after Chinese language and so on and then the President is an Indian, right, and our MYCS is Community Development and Sports, five of them.”

Mr V P Hirubalan: “Senior Minister of State Iswaran.”

SM Goh: “Senior Minister of State Iswaran is an Indian and then there is another one, Balaji is in Foreign Affairs. On the basis of merit, which creates a bit of a problem because there is only one Malay in Cabinet, plus one Deputy Minister and a few Parliamentary Secretaries. But we have to tell everybody that this is on the basis of meritocracy. If you change the system, then the able Indians will be very unhappy with us. Okay, but let me finish.”

“Then there could be a problem in Parliament because people would generally vote for an able Member of Parliament. Where the two are equal, people tend to vote for your own race because it is easier, I can speak your dialect, I can speak your language. So, in Parliament, we, therefore, changed the system from a single member constituency to a multi-member constituency, to a mix. We still have single member, we have multiple-member constituency, ranging from three to six and each of this, we call it Group Representation Constituency (GRC). Group Representation Constituency, in each one of them there must be a candidate from the minority community in Singapore. Indians considered a minority, Malay considered a minority, Chinese majority. So you must always have a member. On that basis, we ensure that in Parliament, the minority

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communities would always be represented, to represent the demographic distribution by race in Singapore.”

Mr Rashed Saleh Al Oraimi: “This is in the Parliament?”

SM Goh: “In Parliament.”

Mr Rashed Saleh Al Oraimi: “Yeah, but in the other jobs, Your Excellency, how could you be sure year after year that this is not going to change it, it’s not in the Constitution?”

SM Goh: “No, you cannot guarantee because once you go on the basis of meritocracy, they have to compete. So, we face the problem. Even today, people ask, the Judges, High Court Judges, why no Malays? Chinese and Indians but no Malays. So, what can we do? Have you got a qualified person? If you don’t have a qualified person, I put you up, it’s a problem. Then top civil servants, permanent secretaries, same comment. We don’t have, but we say it must be on the basis of merit. They have accepted this. Over the years, they have come to realize that when they make the effort, they can produce bright people.

“We went through the argument. At one stage, the Malay community was under­represented in the university because they have to compete against the others. So they suggest that, can you give us an advantage going to university over the others? In other words, please give me 30 per cent marks to start off with. Give me a ladder, 30 per cent marks to compete with you. So, we said, is that wise? We can do that. The others, from base zero, I give you 30 per cent marks, then, of course, you enter university together. What about passing? What about graduating? Do I give you 30 per cent marks advantage? So, of course, we say no, no, no, but after a while no, then maybe you will end up what you call with Class Three Lower Two, the rest are Upper Two, First Class. Well, we give you a 30 per cent mark to pass. You go to the job market, what happens? You are a doctor with 30 per cent marks extra, the others, everybody knows he’s a doctor without 30 per cent marks, who do you go to?

“So, we took them through the argument. We said, in the end, you lower your own self-esteem and dignity. Don’t do it and the Malay community now understood that in order to have self-esteem and dignity, you’ve got to compete and they are doing well. They have now doctors, have many lawyers, and accountants. At one time, very few doctors, very few lawyers, very few accountants. Now, they have them. Next stage will be on their own steam. Move one step up. So, there will be some from the minority community later on, but I think it would always be a smaller number than what the population suggests. So, we don’t go by quota for top jobs and that’s the beauty of Singapore, that all the communities accept that, that this is a fair system. If they think it’s not fair, we'll be in trouble. They say this is a fair system. Yes, yes.”

Mr Neil Farley: “Senior Minister, Singapore wants to attract talent from around the world, but it has only a limited amount of space, people to live here. I was just wondering two things - first of all, are there any limits on the level of immigration to Singapore and, secondly, as Singapore is surrounded by many of the countries with different, with various social and economic problems, do you have any problems with illegal immigration?”

SM Goh: “Well, first, there is a limit on the number of people we can take in. We have done a study of the maximum population, optimal population in Singapore where everybody will still live and work comfortably. That figure, of course, can change depending on how high you want to build up and your infrastructure investment and so on. But it will be, say, in the region of 6.5 million. It’s not an aspirational goal, it’s not that we want to reach 6.5 million. This is what we think is the limit where we can have comfortable living. We are now about five million. We, therefore, have got to have a limit on immigration. But this limit also depends on the total fertility rate of Singaporeans. Being a very urbanized small country, our total fertility rate today is 1.22. You need 2.1 to reproduce yourselves, we are 1.22, very low. So, if Singaporeans are not going to produce in Singapore, you need to have immigrants to come in. That figure will be adjusted, but there is a limit, which is adjustable.

“We would emigrate workers, professionals whom we do not have the skills. The workers, for example, Singaporeans are trained for higher jobs, they do not want to be construction workers, they do not want to be cleaners, but these things got to be done. That we will bring in, but they turn over, they come, they go out. That part, we watch the numbers carefully, on a need basis. Then on the professional part, on the talented part, at the moment, there is no limit. The more we can attract, the better for us. Now, the professionals, the very able people, not just in economic skills, musicians, sportsmen, artists, we want them so that in time to come, Singapore has its own share of very talented non-economic kind of skills. No limit in that. The more we have, the better.

“Now, that doesn’t mean we do not have a political problem, we have a political problem because people at the top say, why are you bringing so and so to compete against me? Without you being there, I will be the professor, but now, the professor is from somewhere else. We have to live with that political problem, but to answer your question, top-level, no limit. Bottom, we watch the numbers quite carefully.”

Mr Ho Tong Yen: “Excuse me, sir, we’ve run out of time.”

SM Goh: “Okay, a few more questions, yeah, one, two more.”

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Mr K T Chacko: “You said the Asean bloc, you have talked about India, China, America. ASEAN bloc, what is Singapore’s priority in developing relationship with the GCC?”

SM Goh: “Oh, we’re latecomers - ‘we’ meaning ASEAN - in forging these ties with the GCC countries, but we have now a GCC-Asean FTA and Singapore was also a latecomer in understanding the Middle East, until maybe about eight, nine years ago. Before, oil was flowing. So nobody bother very much what happens in the Middle East, but that was a very mistaken view. Middle East is much more than just oil or wealth. It is a place where you have a sizeable population that can make a big contribution to the rest of the world and, of course your oil and your wealth give you less strategic leverage over the others. And geopolitically, it’s a very important country and it’s not homogenous, not monolithic. So, we’ve got to begin to understand the problems in the Middle East because they are going to affect us. Your relations with one another, leave alone relations with Israel, with one another, I think would have impact on the larger global situation. Latecomers, but we have made good progress in forging relations with the GCC countries. We should do more. So, this is the reason why we have invited you over here, so that you can see things for yourself, what’s happening over here and to sense for yourselves our interest in the whole region. Okay?”

Mr K T Chacko: “Thank you.”

Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber: “Thank you very much, Your Excellency.”

SM Goh: “Thank you, thank you.”

Mr Rashed Saleh Al Oraimi:“Thank you, sir.”

SM Goh: “Thank you. Just one question to all of you - worthwhile to visit Singapore? Is it worthwhile? You can see things you want to see? This is not a guided North Korean tour for you. In North Korea, you write beautiful stories because you’d be taken to places like you see all they want you to see. What it means is, look at Singapore on your own, go on, the good and the bad. Then you get a realistic picture of Singapore.”

Mr Rashed Saleh Al Oraimi: “Of course, we have great colleagues here who like to make sure their effort for us. And also, we’ve done some homework ourselves after working hours. We’ve seen so many things in Singapore, different things. Besides the economy, there was the tourism, education, finance and personally, I was interested in knowing more about education in Singapore because I know there is a programme with Saudi Arabia. I know there is another programme in health with the United Arab Emirates and for personal reasons, I wanted to know more about education in Singapore. Could it be a substitute for Europe and the United States? And from what I see, from what I saw so far, I think I have seen interesting. Probably, our next meeting is going to be with the

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education authorities. We will ask more but, in general, it was amazing, it was matching the picture we had in my mind about Singapore as an urban society in the middle of Southeast Asia and there is a lot of potential for cooperation between our part of the world and Singapore.”

Participants - MEJVP Journalists:

1. Mr Hamid Najafi Tabrizi, Managing Director, Kayhan Daily (English), Iran2. Mr Mohamed Moheeb Jaber, Assistant Managing Editor, Al Khaleej Newspaper, UAE3. Mr K T Chacko, News Editor, Gulf Times, Qatar4. Mr Hamed Al Sewerky, Senior Reporter, Alrroya Aleqtissadiya Newspaper, UAE5 . Mr Rashed Saleh Al Oraimi, Editor-in-chief, Ittihad Newspaper, UAE6 . Mr Touraj Shiralilou, Director for Public Relations & International Cooperation, Islamic Republic News Agency (IRNA).7 . Ms Boudur Khaled Al Mtery, Editor, Economic Section, Al Watan Newspaper, Kuwait8. Mr Hossam Abd El Naby, Senior Business Journalist, Emarat Al Youm Newspaper, UAE9. Mr Abbas Moussa, Journalist, Al Watan Newspaper, Qatar10. Mr Neil Farley, Copy Editor, The National Newspaper, UAE

Hosts:

1. Mr Goh Chok Tong, Senior Minister2. Mr Augustin Lee, Principal Private Secretary to Senior Minister3. Mr Ho Tong Yen, Press Secretary to Senior Minister4. Mr V P Hirubalan, Director/Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia Directorate, MFA5 . Ms Faye Shen, Manager, MICA6 . Mr Lin Xuanbin, Asst Public Affairs Officer, MFA7 . Mr Martino Tan, Asst Manager, MICA

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