Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2...
Transcript of Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2...
![Page 1: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/1.jpg)
© The Bulletproof Executive 2013
Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic Medicine with Dennis McKenna - #329
![Page 2: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/2.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
2
Warning and Disclaimer
The statements in this report have not been evaluated by the FDA (U.S. Food & Drug Administration). Information provided here and products sold on bulletproofexec.com and/or upgradedself.com and/or betterbabybook.com are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. The information provided by these sites and/or by this report is not a substitute for a face-to-face consultation with your physician, and should not be construed as medical advice of any sort. It is a list of resources for further self-research and work with your physician. We certify that at least one statement on the above-mentioned web sites and/or in this report is wrong. By using any of this information, or reading it, you are accepting responsibility for your own health and health decisions and expressly release The Bulletproof Executive and its employees, partners, and vendors from from any and all liability whatsoever, including that arising from negligence. Do not run with scissors. Hot drinks may be hot and burn you.
If you do not agree to the above conditions, please do not read further and delete this document.
![Page 3: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/3.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
3
Speaker1: BulletproofRadio,astateofhighperformance.
Speaker2: You'relisteningtoBulletproofRadiowithDaveAsprey.
Dave: Today'scoolfactofthedayisthatforthousandofyears,Amazonnativeshavebeenmaking
ayahuasca,whichisapsychedelicthatthey'veusedintheirmedicineceremonies,andsomethingthatIfirstusedalmost20yearsagointhePeruvianforestwithashaman.Whatyouprobablydon'tknowisthatofthe40,000plantspeciestheycouldhavechosen,somehowtheyknewtomixtheayahuascavineandleavesfromashrubtomakethemedicine.TheayahuascavinehaschemicalsknownasmonoamineoxidaseinhibitorsthatletyourbodyabsorbtheDMTfromtheleaves.Withoutthisinhibitor,theDMTwouldbedestroyedbythedigestivestuffinyourgut,andyoufeelnoeffectsfromtheDMTatall.Thenativessaytheplantsrevealtothemhowtomaketheayahuasca.Literally,ifyouaskawell-trainedshaman,they'llsay,"Well,theplantstalktomeandtellmewhattouse,"whichisprettydarnprofound.Eitherthat,orthey'reallcrazy.Youalsohavetoaskyourself,"Howdidacrazypersonpick1outof40,000shrubs?"Hmm.Thatdoesn'tsoundcrazytome.Itsoundsinterestingandworthyofscientificdiscourse.
Beforewegetintotoday'sinterview,ifyouhaven'thadachancetocheckoutBulletproofUpgradedCoconutCharcoal,youtotallyshould.ThisissomethingthatIcarefullyformulated.Weusecharcoalfromcoconuts,andthisisthefinestsizedparticleyoucanget,muchfinerthanwhatyouwouldnormallyget.Whatcharcoaldoes,ithashugeamountsofsurfaceareathatelectricallyattractstoxinsinthegut.Becauseoneteaspoonofthishasasurfaceareaequaltosomethinglikeafootballfield,ifyouweretoflattenoutthemolecules,itcanabsorbalotofbadstuffinthegut,includingpharmaceuticals.Infact,ifyoutooktheactivatedcharcoalandthenyoudranksomeayahuasca,youwouldn'thavemuchofanexperienceatallbecausetheactivatedcharcoalwouldabsorbthemedicineintheplant.It'saverypowerfulformofdetoxandsomethingthatIuseifI'mgoingtodrinkalcohol,whichIdon'tdothatoften,andsomethingthatIuseifI'mgoingtogoeatoutatarestaurantthatIknowisgoingtohavestuffinthefoodthatIprobablyshouldn'tbeeating.
Thisisactuallyaprofoundandvery,veryoldthingthat'susedfordetoxinmuchoftheworld.Iverymuchvalueit.It'stheonlyoneyoucangetlikeitonthemarket.It'salsoacidwashed,whichremovesalltracesofheavymetalsthattendtobeconcentratedwhenyou'reburningsomethinglikecoconutshellsinordertomakethisveryfineparticleofcharcoal.Prettycoolthing,andit'stheoppositeofwhatasupplementis.Supplementsaddthingsin.Thistakesawaythebadstuff,whichissometimeseasier.
Today'sguestiswell-known.He'sDr.DennisMcKenna,afoundingboardmemberoftheHeffterResearchInstitute,anethnopharmacologist,aresearchpharmacognisist,alecturer,andanauthor,andoneoftheleadingexpertsinthetherapeuticusesofpsychoacticmedicinesderivedfromnature.He'sakeyorganizerandparticipantintheHoascaProject,aninternationalbio-medicalstudyofayahuascainBrazil.He'salegendarybio-hackerandbrotherofthewell-knownTerenceMcKenna.Dennis,welcometotheshow.It'sanhonortohaveyouon.
![Page 4: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/4.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
4
Dennis: Thankyousomuchforhavingme.It'sapleasuretobehere.I'mgladwegotthosefactualissues
straightenedoutaheadoftheshow.
Dave: Whatyouguysdon'tknow,becausewetookitoutofthecoolfactoftheday,isthatwhenIwasfirstreadingthecoolfactoftheday,andIprepareaheadoftimewithnotes,andIworkwiththeBulletproofteamtomakesurethatI'vegotthenotesright.Inmyhead,foryears,I'vehadwhichoftheplantcompoundsaremixedinayahuasca.Ihaditbackwards.IwasundertheimpressionthattheDMTmoleculewasintheayahuascavineandtheMAOIswereintheshrub.Ihaditbackwards.I'mreadingthisgoing,"Wait,thisisbackwards.Ican'treadthis.Howembarrassing."ThenDennisstepsupandislike,"Uh,Dave,actuallythatwasright,andyou'rewrong."I'mlike,"Allright.I'vejustbeenschooledbyoneofthemostbad-asspsychopharmacologistshallucinogensexpertsoutthere."Icanlivewiththat.Thankyouforthecorrection,Dennis.
Dennis: You'rewelcome.Wecansortallthisoutaswegetintothis.Iimaginewewillwantto.
Dave: Wecan,indeed.I'mreallylookingforwardtothisinterview,becauseyouandIgotachancetotalkafewmonthsagoaboutibogaineresearch.Ibogaineisanotherhallucinogenthat'sreallyhadaprofoundeffectonaddiction,inparticular.WhenIrealizedfromthatconversation,like,"Wow,weshouldtalk.Lotsofpeoplewouldliketohearwhatwewouldchatabout,"sothisisourchancetodothat.Togetgoing,Iwanttoknowhowdidyougetintothisstuff?Wastheresomethingaboutyourchildhood?Whatmadeyouspendyourlifestudyingthesekindofbizarremedicinesthatmostpeopledon'tknowanythingabout?
Dennis: Ithinkmultiplefactors.I'dhavetocreditmybrotherorblamemybrother,dependingonhowyouwanttoseeit,becausehewas4yearsaheadofmeinage,andhewasalwaysintothecoolstuff.That'sjustanagewherethelittlebrotherwantswhateverbigbrother'sdoing.Hewantsin.Mybrotherwasreallyintoalwaysdoinginterestingthings.Hewasobviouslybrilliantanddriven.Ireallycredithim,andalsothezeitgeistoftheage,becausethiswasthe60s,andwewerechildrenofthe60's.MybrotherwaslivinginBerkeley.Inthelate60s,afterhegraduatedfromhighschool,hewenttoBerkeley.Hewantedtobeattheepicenterofwheretheactionwas,andsoIwasinfluencedbyallthat.LSDwaswhatwasthepsychedelicoftheday,ifyouwill.EveryonewastakingLSD.Itwasatimeofsocialfermentandturmoil.TheVietnamWarwasgoingon.Itwasaveryturbulenttime,andwewererightinthemiddleofit.
Wewerenerdy,Iguess.Wedidn'tevenhavethatwordatthattime,butTerryandI,TerenceandI,wereinterestedinoutrageousthings.Wewerebigsciencefictionfanatics.Wereadinesotericphilosophyandalchemy,allofthesethings.Whenpsychedelicscamealong,itwasrightupouralley.Wecouldnotnotgetinterestedinit.Wedid.Terenceagainleadingthewayintroducedmetosomeofthesepsychedelics.
Thefirsttimeheintroducedmetocannabisonesummer,whenhecamebackfromBerkeleyfullofalltheseradicalideas,withaveryprettygirlfriendandabagfullofcannabis,whichweprobablycouldn'tgiveawayintoday'smarket.Itdidthetrick.Wejustwentovertothepark,whichwasacrossfromourhouse,andsatdownandtopedup.Thatwasreallymyfirstencounterwithapsychedelic,psychoactivesubstancethatwasnotalcohol.Ihadmyfirst
![Page 5: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/5.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
5
seriousencounterwithalcohollessthanaweekpreviously.Didn'tlikethatatall,andwhenItookcannabis,Irealized,thisismydrug.ThisismuchmorecompatiblewithwhatIlike.
Iwascuriousaboutallthesethings,andhewas,andwewereincorrespondence.Bythistime,thesewereletters.Wedidn'thaveinternetinthosedays.Wewereincorrespondence.We'dgottenpastallofthesiblingrivalrythatbrotherssometimeshave.Wewerenowfriendsandcolleaguesandfellowexplorersofthefringes,Iguess,ofeverything,ofcultureandsoon.IwentouttoCaliforniain1967,thesummerof'67,whichwasthesummeroflove,supposedly.HewaslivinginBerkeley,sowehadaplacetogo.MyfriendandI,whymyfatherallowedthistohappen,Istillhavenoidea,becausehehadtoknowthatfromhisperspective,itprobablywasn'tgoingtogowell.Anyway,heletmegooutthere.
Inthatsummer,wediscovered,myfriendandI,thankstoTerence'sintercession,wediscoveredLSD.Itwasreallyourfirstpsychedelicexperience.Itwasn'ttoolongbeforewediscoveredDMT.TerencehadtoldmeaboutDMTwhenhe'dcomebackthatsummertoturnmeontocannabis,buthehadn'tbroughtany,andhejustdescribeditastheultimatemetaphysicalrealitypill.Ofcourse,it'snotapill,asweknow,becauseit'snotorallyactive.It'ssomethingthatwassmoked.Thesyntheticversionwassmoked.Anyway,minordetail.WhenTerencediscoveredDMTandsharedthatwithme,webothdecidedthatthatwasjustamazing,thatitwasnotjustthemostamazingdrugwe'dtaken,andourexperiencewasactuallyprettylimited.Itwasjustthemostamazingthingwe'deverencounteredinourlimiteduniverse.Wedecidedtothroweverythingelseawayandfocusonthat,becausewesaid,inourminds,thiswasthemostimportantdiscoverythatmanhadevermade.45yearson,Ireallyhaven'tchangedmymindmuchaboutthat.
Dave: DMTprobablywasn'tthatcommonbackin'67.Idon'tknow.Thiswas5yearsbeforeIwasborn.Wasthissomethingyoucouldget,ordidyouguyshavesomeuniversityhook-up?Yeah?
Dennis: Itwashardtoget.Terence,helivedinBerkeley,whichwaskindofthecenterofallthis.
Dave: Okay,epicenter.
Dennis: Heworkedthematrix.Hehadconnectionsandsoon.HewasabletocomeupwithDMT,withsyntheticDMT,whichwassomethingthatyousmokedinaglasspipelikecrack.
Dave: It'sstillhardtoget,right?
Dennis: It'sbecomingeasiertoget,largelybecauseTerence'stalksandsoonhavemadeitmorewell-known.It'seasiertogetnowthanitisthen.Whatyougotthenwasjustthishorriblesloppysynthesis.Yougotthisorange,smelly,amorphouspaste.
Dave: Yuck.
Dennis: Notgreatquality,butitdidthetrick.
Dave: Forpeoplelistening,DMTistheactiveingredientinayahuasca,andit'salsoknownasthespirit
![Page 6: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/6.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
6
molecule.Thereisawell-knownbookaboutuniversityresearchatUNMusingthis,wheretheyactuallyquantifyitandmeasuredtheexperiencesofpeople.Itappearstohavesomehealingeffects,youcouldputitthatway.ThestuffI'veseennowismorelikeawhitecrystallinesortofthing,anditalsocanbesnortedinsteadofjustsmoked.Iwouldencourageanyonelisteningwho'sneverdoneDMT,ifyouaregoingtochoosetodothis,don'tmessaround.Haveexperiencedpeoplewhoknowhowtotakecareandtowatchyouandtokeepyousafe,becausethisisnotsomethingthatIwouldtriflewith.Justtoputitthatway.It'sbigmedicine,youcouldsay.
Dennis: Yeah.Essentiallythesameconsiderationsapplytoanypsychedelic.
Dave: Yeah,that'sverytrue.
Dennis: EspeciallywithabigpsychedeliclikeDMTorLSDorevenmushrooms.Payattentiontosetandsetting.Assurethatyou'reinasafeplace.Assurethatmaybethere'ssomeonewithmoreexperiencetherewhocannotnecessarilyevenbeinthesameroom,butbeclose.Justcommonsensemeasuressothatyoucanfocusontheexperienceandnottheexternalworld.
Dave: Iwouldgoonestepfurtherandsayifyou'regoingtodoahallucinogenlikethis,setandsettingandintentionmatter.Havesomeonewho'satrainedshamanwhoreallyunderstandsthemoreemotional,spiritual,unseenworldwithyou,justbecauseitcan'thurt,anditprobablycoulddosomegood.
Dennis: Right.Itcan'thurt.InthecaseofDMT,Idon'tknowthatitmakesadifferenceinacertainwaybecauseit'ssoshort-acting.That'soneofthethingsaboutit,andthat'soneofthekeydifferencesbetweenDMTandayahuasca.WhenyoutakeDMTorally,theexperienceisstretchedoutoverseveralhours.WhenyousmokeDMT,20minutesfrombaselinetobaseline.It'sveryfastandit'sveryoverwhelmingwhenyoutakeitthatway,astonishing,I'dsay.Sometimesit'sdifficulttocomebackwithmuchotherthanasenseofastonishmentandlike,"Whatwasthat?"It'simpressive,butIthinkwhenDMTistakenorally,thatwouldbethewaymostpeopleinindigenouscultureswouldencounterit,it'sprettydifferent.Itdoesn'thavetheintensity,butithasmoredepth,Iwouldsay,andmorehealingeffectsthatway.
Dave: That'safairwaytodescribeit.TherearepeopleouttherewhowouldsaythatthewholeLSDandDMTandthewholepsychedelicculturewascreatedbygovernmentpeoplelookingtodestabilizesocietyandMKUltraandallthatsortofstuff,CIA.What'syourespeciallywiththatstuff?Isthereanythingtothat?There'sreamsofevidenceI'veseenfrompeoplelikethis.I'mnotsurethatitmatters,butyouwerethere.Werethereguysinblacksuitsandsunglasses?Whatwasthatlike?
Dennis: No.Ithinkthatthat'samisinformationthat'sbeendeliberatelypropagated.Iwouldhavetosay,iftheCIAdeliberatelyreleasedthesepsychedelicsintosocietytodestabilize,whatwouldbethepurposeofthat,todestabilizesociety?Insomesense,societywasalreadyinturmoilwhenthisstuffhappened.Thentheotheraspectisthatthesethingshavebeenusedindigenouslyforthousandsofyears.Theywereonlynewtousinthe60s,whenitbegantocometotheattentionofmassconsciousness,ormassmedia.Theseareallpartofthetraditionsthatarethousandsof
![Page 7: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/7.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
7
yearsold.Idon'tthinkthegovernmenthadanymoreideathananyoneelsewhatthesocialconsequencesofthesepsychedelicsescapingintotheculturewere.Therewasnoplot.Ithinktheywereassurprisedaseveryone.
Iamnotabelieverinconspiracytheoriesbyandlargebecausemyapproachtoitis,nobodyknowswhat'sgoingon.Theideawiththeconspiracytheoryissomebodyknowswhat'sgoingon.Actually,no.Nobodyhasaclue.
Dave: Ifindthatmostthingsthatarelabeledasconspiracytheoriesareemergentbehaviorsfrommany,manymicrodecisonsthataremade,sotheylookprettybad.Everynowandthen,therereallyarebadpeopledoingbadthings,but.
Dennis: Well,ofcourse.
Dave: Icantellyou,ifbadpeoplethoughttheyweregoingtogetanadvantagebyintroducinghallucinogensintosociety,Ithinktheirplan,Iwouldsayitprobablybackfired,buttherearepeople-
Dennis: Iwouldsayso.
Dave: -peoplewholistentoBulletproofRadioandfriendswhowouldrabidlydisagreewiththat,andI'mnotsayingthatIknow,butI'lltalkaboutmyexperiencesandincrediblehealingthatI'veseenmanypeopleexperienceusinghallucinogensinahealingsetting,notatDisneyland.Idon'tthinkthat'sparticularlyawiseuseofthesethings,andIdon'tthinkthey'reforkids,andthey'renotforparties.Theycertainlyhavesomepower.TellmeaboutwhathappenedwhenyouwentwithyourbrotherTerencetoLaChorrera.
Dennis: I'malwaysreluctanttodiscussthisonpodcastsbecauseit'sdifficulttoexplain.Even40yearslater,it'sdifficulttoexplain.That'sonereasonwhyIwrotethisbook.IfIcouldmentionit,Iwill.
Dave: Please,plugyourbook.Bulletprooflistenerslovetoread.
Dennis: It'scalled,"TheBrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss."Ievenhaveacopyhere.Idon'tknowifyoucanseeit.
Dave: Yeah,"BrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss."
Dennis: MylifewithTerenceMcKenna.Thatismymemoir,andthosepeoplewhoknowTerence'swritingwillrecognizethisasasequelto,insomeways,hisbookcalled"TrueHallucinations,"whichfocusesmuchmoreonouradventuresintheAmazonatLaChorrera.WhydidwegototheAmazonandtoLaChorrerain1971?ThisispartofthisstoryaboutDMT.Wedecidedthatseriously,thattherewasnothinggoingonsocietallyorintermsofourcareer,oranythingelsethatwasmoreimportantthanDMT.Wethoughtreallythismaybeisasignalfromanaliencivilization.Wedidn'tknow,butitwasrelatedtoourfrustration,insomeways,thattheDMTexperiencewassoshort.Weactuallyfoundout,weresearchedtheliterature.NobodyknewatthattimethatayahuascacontainedDMT.Ethnobotanywasstillbeingsortedout,butwe
![Page 8: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/8.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
8
discoveredareferencetoanotherpreparationusedbytheWitotoIndians,whichwerebasedinLaChorrera,SouthernColumbia,calledoo-koo-he.Theycalleditoo-koo-he,anditwasanorally-activepreparationmadefromthesapofthesetreesthatbelongtothegenusvirola,membersofthenutmegfamily.
OthertribesallthroughnorthernVenezuelaandColumbiamakesnuffsoutofrelatedtrees,sotheygetaroundthatMAOinhibitionthingbymakingitintoasnuff.Weknewallthat.Theethnobotanyhadbeenstudied,andthenthispapersurfacedaboutanoralpreparationinvolvingvirola.Wethought,"Aha.Maybethiswillbeanorally-activeform.Maybewecanspendmoretimeinthisdimension,inthisplace,andunderstandbetterwhatwasgoingon."Thatwasthequasi-scientificmotive,Iguessyoucouldsay,forustogodownthereinsearchofthisraredrugthatnowhitemanasfarasweknowhadevertaken.
WewenttoLaChorrera.Wewentwheretheactionwas.Whatactuallyhappened,andifyoureadTerence'sbookormybook,whenwegottoLaChorrera,andthat'sawholestoryinitselfhowwegotthere,whenwegottoLaChorrera,wehadmetaanthropologistonthewayinwhowasstudyingtheWitoto.Weknewhewasthere.Weexpectedtoencounterhim.We'dbeentoldinBogotathathewaswithhispeople.Wedidencounterhim.Hewasutterlyappalled,numberone,thatwe'dshowedup,andwewereeverybitascolorfulasanyofthetribes.Wewereawild-lookingbunch.WecouldhavesteppedrightoutofanystreetcornerandpaidashberriesWehadbeardsdowntohere.Wehadbells.Wehadbangles.Wewereacolorfultribeonourownright.
Weshowedup.Wetoldhimwhatwewereafter,andhe,again,wasappalled.Itwaslike,"Howdoyouevenknowaboutthis?You'renotsupposedtodiscussthis.Thisismadness.Youcan'tgointhereandaskforthisthing."Well,itturnsout,hewasalittleparanoid,eventually.Wesaid,"Okay,yeah,whatever,doc."ThenwewentontoLaChorrera,butwesaid,"Okay,we'llbecool."
WegottoLaChorrera,andwesaid,"Well,we'lljusthangoutuntilthemomentseemsappropriate,andwecanasksomebodyaboutoo-koo-he.Maybetheycanleadustoit."LaChorrerawasaplacethat,itwasamissionvillage.Forestaroundthevillagehadbeencleared,maybeacouplehundredacreshadbeenturnedintopasture.Therewerezebucattlethere,andthezebucattle,thepreferredsub-straitforpsilocybecubensis,whichisthepan-tropical,biggoldencappsilocybinmushroom,theywereliterallyeverywhereinthepasture.Weknewwhattheywere,becausewe'ddoneourhomework.Wehadverylittleexperiencewiththem,butweknewwhattheywere,andwethought,"Oh,great.Wecanhavefunwiththesewhilewe'rewaitingforoo-koo-he,therealmysterytoemerge."
Wesaid,"Well,great.Wehavelotsofcannabis.Wehavestrophariacubensis,"asitwascalledbackthen,"sowe'regood.Wecanjusthangoutandenjoytheseverynicenon-toxicpsychedelicsandseewhatemerge."Itquicklyemergedthatthemushrooms,notoo-koo-he,whenweeventuallyfoundtheoo-koo-he,itwasdisappointing.Itwasn'treallythatspectacular.Westartedeatingmushroomsonaverycasualbasisandnotreallypayingattention,andoften,becausewedidn'thaveallthatmuchtoeat.Thefoodwebroughtwasinadequate,andyoucanmakequiteanicebowlofsouporanomelettewithpsilocybinmushrooms.
![Page 9: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/9.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
9
Dave: GoodGod.
Dennis: Wewereconsumingthemkindofprettymuchallthetime.Itquicklygotprettyweird.Itstarted
suggesting,itstimulatedconversationforsureamongus.Itstartedpresentingalltheseideasthatwerewhatmybrotherwouldliketocall"funnyideas,"veryunconventionalideasaboutthingsyoucoulddotoessentiallyoperateonyourselftodoapsycho-surgeryonyourDNA.Wedidthosethingsandwedidwhatthemushroomtoldustodo,anditwasverymuchlikebeinginstructedbysomeintelligententity.Inourreferenceframeatthattime,weprettymuchassumedthatitwaseitherthemushroomorsomethingbeingchanneledthroughthemushroomthatwastellingustodothisbiophysicalexperimentthatwassupposedtotransformourDNAinaveryspecialway.
I'mnotgoingtogoanyfurtherinto,excepttosaythat,weconceivedanexperiment,andweperformedtheexperiment.Whatwepredictedcouldhappencouldnotpossiblyhappenbecauseitviolatedthelawsofphysicsandeveryotherlawofdecencyandwhatever.Couldnothappen,butwehadsortoftalkedourselvesintoa,Iguess,acognitivecornerwheresomethinghadtohappenwhenwedidthisexperiment.Whathappenedwasthatwebothhadasimultaneousalteredstateepisodethatlastedacoupleofweeks,andthepredictionsoftheexperimentdidn'tcometrue,butitwaslikesomethinghadtogive.Whatgavewasourgrasponreality,mineinparticular.Ifullyrecovered,Ihope,andasfarasIknow,andsothatwastheexperiment.
Idon'twanttogointodetailbecausewedon'thaveenoughtime.
Dave: Sure.
Dennis: Iwantyoutoreadmybook.It'sallunpackedthereinquiteabitofdetail.It'sveryhardtoexplain.
Dave: Justbasedonthat,alotofpeoplelisteningtoBulletproofRadiotodaywillwanttopickupyourbook,"TheBrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss,"andreadwhatisoneofthestoriesaboutverypioneeringworkinpsychedelics,andveryfascinating,justfromahistoricalperspective,nottomentionifyou'reinterestedinpursuingthiskindofmedicine.Ithinkit'sworthunderstandingwhereitcamefrom,andatleastwhereitcamefromintheWest.
Dennis: Yeah.IthinkoneofthetakehomelessonsfromouradventurethereandtheexperimentatLaChorrerawaswereallywereclueless.Wethoughtweknew,muchless.It'salmostanexampleofhownottoapproachthesethings.Wewerelucky.Welearnedalot.Iwouldnotsuggestthatanyoneelsetakethatapproach.Studyup.Knowwhatyou'redoingbeforeyougetintothis.Wedidn't,butwelearnedquickly.
Dave: Someonehastostepoffthecliffsometimes.
Dennis: Exactly.
![Page 10: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/10.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
10
Dave: Iunderstandandrespectthat.Youmentionedacoupletimes,themushroomsortheplantscanbechannelingsomekindofintelligenceormessagesfromaliens.40yearslater,what'syourverdict?
Dennis: IwishIknew.Istillhavenotfiguredthatout,becauseitcertainlyseemsoftenwithmushrooms,withayahuasca,withtheseotherprofoundpsychedelics,itoftenseemsthatyou'reintouchwithanintelligencethatisnotyou.Maybeit'sapartofyouthatispresentingasnotyou.Thatwouldbethereductionistperspective.Maybeitactuallyisadifferentintelligence.It'seithertheplantorsomethingthatspeaksthroughtheplant,andIdon'tthinkwecandecide.Idon'tthinkevenneurosciencecandecide.Thisisadifficultquestion,anditgoestosomeofthemostfundamentalissuesaboutwhatisthenatureofreality,andwhatisthenatureofourperceptionofreality?Isthebrainsomethingthattakesinformationin?Isitthedetector,orageneratorofconsciousness,thebrain?
Ithinkit'spartlyboth,butIthinkthatthebraintakesinformationinfromtheenvironment,combinesitwithassociatedprocesses,andessentiallygeneratesahallucinationthatwecallreality.That'sthehallucinationthatwelivein.It'spartly,atleast,synthesizedbyourneuralmachinery.That'swhatthebraindoes.It'sarealitygenerator.Itgeneratesamodelofrealitythatwecaninhabit,anditmakesmoresensethanrealityitself,whichphysicstellsusdoesn'tlookanythinglikewhatwethinkofasreality.It'smostlyemptyspaceandenergyfieldsandallthisstuff.
Thebrainisanorganthatenablesustoconstructamodelofreality,whichisanotherwayofsaying,ahallucinationoradreamoramovie.Itwritesthemovie.Wearetheproducers,directors,andstarsofourownmovie,asiseveryone.Idon'tthinkwecanreallyanswerthatquestion.WhatIwouldsayisifthisinformationiscomingfromsomethingoutside,anotherdimensionorwhatever,thatprettymuchthrowsintoquestioneverythingwethinkweunderstandaboutthewaytheworldis,andwe'vegotalotofexplainingtodo.Wehavetoexaminesomefundamentalassumptionsabouthowtheworldis.ThisisaproblemforweWesternerswhoaresteepedinscience,tendtoandclimbtowardreductionism.Ofcourse,indigenouspeopleare,it'slike,"Well,whatdidyouthinkitwas?"They'rejustkindofmatter-of-factaboutit.Yeah.Thisisit.That'swhatweexperience.
Dave: Ifyoucould,whatStanGrofdid,andforlisteners,StanGrofwrotebooksabouttheholotropicuniverse,andhetreated10,000patientswithLSDasalicensedpsychiatric,andhadprofoundhealingeffects.HeusesatypeofbreathingthatmakesyouhallucinatewhenLSDwasmadeillegal.I'veactuallydonehisbreathingexerciseswithhimpersonallywhenhewasinhislate80's,andwhathemappedoutwasprofound.There'speople,whenyoulookatthestatistics,whenlotsofpeopledohallucinogens,orgointoalteredstates,evenwithoutanysortofchemicalassistance,theygenerallyseethesamekindsofthings.I'velookedintotheworkofothergroupslikeInternationalAssociationofConsciousnessoutofBrazil.Thesepeoplearetheremappingthingsoutthewayscientistsdo,andsaying,"Well,ifyoutakeastatisticof50,000peoplewhowentonajourney,whetherornotitwasameditation-drivenorachemical-driven,"they'refindingthesamethingsandthey'reseeingthesamethings,andthey'redrawingpicturesofthesethingsanddescribingtheminintricatedetail.That'sfamiliartootherpeoplewhohavebeenthere.
![Page 11: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/11.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
11
Idon'tknow.Thatlooksveryscientifictome,andI'mahugefanofmeasurementandofusing
sciencetolookatthequestionofconsciousnessinsteadoftolookawayfromitandtoexplainitaway,whichhasbeentheparadigm.Yourexperimentinthejunglebackthenandalotofyourworkandyourbrother'sworkovertimehasthenextgenerationofscientistsjustopenlydoingwhathappenedinthe1700s.
Dennis: Whatwasprohibitedbackintheday.Nowit'salmostlegitimate.
Dave: Almost.
Dennis: It'sgettingthere.YouandIareonthesamepagethatway.Iamnotanti-scientific,right?Ithinkmeasurementandscientificverification,scienceisapowerfultool.Onethingthatpsychedelicswillputfrontandcenterishowlimitedscienceisintermsofitsmethodologyandintermsofwhatthereistoknowversusthelittletinysliceofrealitythatsciencecansay,"Well,we'vegotitfiguredouthere."No.Scienceonlyhasatinypartofrealityfiguredout.Eventhatissubjecttoquestion,becauseit'salwayssubjecttoquestion.Ifscienceisdoneproperly,you'realwaystryingtoinvalidateyourmodels,tryingtofindoutwhatwillinvalidatemytheoryormyunderstanding,orhowcanIreviseittobebetter,tobetteraccountforthedata?Scienceisgood,butit'slimited,andespeciallywhenitcomestothesetypesofinnerexperiences.
TerencewasmuchmoredismissiveofsciencethanIam.Hispositionwas,sciencewillneverreallyfigurethisout,sowhatgoodisit?Mypositionis,okay,let'snotbetoohasty.Itmightfigureitout,oritmightfigureoutsomepartofit.There'salottoknow,andwehavetobecognizantofthelimits.Ithinkforme,thetakehomelessonoftenfrompsychedelicsisjustareminderofhowlimitedourknowledgesphereis.Nomatterhowitgrows,there'salwaysmoretobeknownthanweactuallyknoworhaveconsensuson.Thatdoesn'tmeanweshouldn'ttrytounderstandit.Sciencecancarryusacertaindistanceinthatdirection.
Dave: Whendidyourealizethatyoucouldusepsychedelicstherapeuticallyandnotjustrecreationally?Atsomepoint,youmusthavecometothatconclusion,thatpeoplewerehealingorchangingfromthese.
Dennis: Yeah.Ihaveseenit,again,frommyownexperience.EventhoughwhenwewenttoLaChorreraandwehadtheseincredibleexperiencesthatwereprobablyverydangerous.Insomeways,we'reprobablyluckythatwecameoutbothaliveandstillrelativelysane.Thatsaid,lookingbackonitfromtheperspectiveof45yearsorwhatever,Idon'tregretitforaminute.Ifeelthatitwasaveryhealingexperienceforme.Youcanapplyacoupleofmodelstoit,ifyouwant.Itwasaprolongedpsychosis.Okay,itwasaprolongedpsychosis.Iprefertothinkofitasashamanicinitiation,althoughI'mnotashaman.I'mthelastpersontosayI'mashaman,butithadallthestagesofshamanicinitiation,andtheultimatethingbeingthatafterIreintegrated,Iwasastronger,better,wiser,andcertainlymorehumblepersonthanIwaswhenIwentintoit.
Idon'trecommendthatpeopleshouldgooutandtakeoverdosesofmushroomsandhaveprolongedpsychoses,butIguessformepersonally,Irealize,thiswasactuallyabeneficialthingthathappenedtome.Ifithadbeeninterrupted,andtherewerepeopleinourpartywhowere
![Page 12: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/12.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
12
appalledatwhatwasgoingonandthoughtweshouldgettothenearestmentalinstitutionasquicklyaspossible,beingintheAmazon,thatwasn'tpossible.Wewerelucky.TerenceandI,weknewwhatwasgoingon.Wethoughtwedid,andtheprocesswasabletounfoldinitsowntimeandeventuallyresolve.Ithinkthatwasultimatelyhealing.
Asfarasingeneral,thetherapeuticpotentialofpsychedelics,itwasprettythoroughlyexploredinthe60s,usingprimarilyLSD,beforeallthatresearchwasshutdown.Foralcoholismanddepressionandanumberofdifferentthings,andit'staken40yearsorsotocomebacktothatbecausetheresearchwaspromising.Theresearchprotocolsweremaybenotasrigorousastheyarenow,buttheresultswereclear.Theywereunambiguous.Here'sthesubstancethatcouldpotentiallyhelpmanypeoplewithvarious,awholespectrumofpsychologicalproblems.
Thentheresearchwasshutdown.Itwaslikeaspasmofhysteriathatsortofsweptthroughsociety.Decisionsmadebypoliticiansregardingscientificandmedicalissues,inmyopinion,that'salwaysdangerousbecausethey'reusuallywillfullyignorantaboutallthosetopics.Theyshouldhavegoodadvice,andtheydidn't.Thedecisionswerenotmadeforsoundreasons.Itwasareactiontosocietalhysteria.Theresearchwhichwaspromisingwasshutdown,andittookalongtimetoreopenitandtakeamoresoberlookatit,andreallythatstartedintheearly'90swithRickStrassman'spioneeringworkonDMT.Thenthatkindofopenedthedooracrack,andthenmorerecentresearch,good,rigorousprotocols,gooddata,Iwouldn'tsayit'safloodgate,butthere'salotmoreworkgoingonnow,andactuallypsychedelicsareemergingassomethingthatisverypromisingfortreatmentofPTSDandaddictionandintractabledepression,OCD,evenpossiblymigraineheadache.That'sprettyclear.
Thetherapeuticpotentialisclear.Thechallengeis,howtotakethesesubstanceswhichhavelongbeenreviledandprohibited.Howdoyoureintegratethemintomedicine?Iftheyhavebetterproperties,andfrankly,mentalhealthcare,psychiatry,inbio-medicine,thewayit'spracticedtoday,iskindofajoke,inmyopinion,inthatitheavilyreliesonpsychopharmaceuticals.It'sentirelydrug-based.Thepsychopharmaceuticalsjustdon'tworkverywell.Psychedelicsworkmuchbetterformanyofthesethings,butthereisnorevenuemodel.Whatpharmaceuticalcompanyisgoingtodevelopadruglikepsilocybinwhichmaybeyoutake3or4timesinyourlife,versusanotherdrugthatyoutake4timesadayfortherestofyourlife?That'stheirrevenuemodel.
Theyhavenointerestindevelopingpsychedelicsastherapeuticmedicines.It'sgottohappenthroughsomeotherway,andtherehastobearegulatoryresponse,somechangeintheregulatoryframework,becausethesepsychedelicsareclassifiedasSchedule1controlledsubstances,rightuptherewithheroinandallthemostdangerousdrugs.They'reclassifiedasnomedicalvalue.That'snumber1,inherentlydangerous,can'tbeusedsafely,allthatstuff,noneofwhichisactuallytrue.
Dave: It'sprobablynotgoingtohappeninabigwayintheUSbecausetheregulatorybodiesareveryheavilyinfluencedbythepharmaceuticalcompanies,butifyouwereinanemergingeconomycountry,ifyouwereCubaormaybeyou'rerunningChinaandyouwanttogetanunfairadvantage,there'sdefinitely,we'llcallit'medicaltourism'forthesethingsthat'shappening,andIwouldbesurprisedifsomecountriesdidn'tbenefitunfairlybyopeninguptheirlaws.Isay
![Page 13: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/13.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
13
unfairly.It'sperfectlyfair.Theyhavemoreflexiblelegalsystemsthatletpeoplecontroltheirbiologythewaytheywant,cool.Peoplegothereandspendmoney,andthentheirownpopulationsbenefit,andtheycuttheirhealthcarecostsandthingslikethat.
Dennis: Right.
Dave: Ormaybetheyhavecivilwarandrebellion.Ijustdon'tthinkso.Thatdoesn'tappeartobewhathappenswhenpeoplestarthealingtheirtraumasusinghallucinogenicplantmedicinesthathavebeenaroundforthousandsofyears.
Dennis: Itistruethatpsychedelicsarenotonlytherapeuticforindividuals,butusedintherightcontext,they'retherapeuticforsocieties,andultimatelyforthewholeplanet,becausetheydotendtomakeusmorecompassionate.Theytendtomakeusbetterhumanbeings,andabletokindofstepoutsideourownpersonalboxandappreciatehowitisforotherpeople.ThiswasoneofthereasonstheywantedtosuppressLSDinthe'60s,becausepeopleweretakingLSDandsaying,"YouwantmetogotoVietnamandkillthesepeople?WhywouldIwanttodothat?"Theycan'thaveadrugthatputsthesekindsofprohibitedthoughtsintopeople'sheads.
Iwouldsayacoupleofthingsinresponsetowhatyousaid.Iwouldn'tbetoosure.Thereareeffortsunderwaynowtolegalizeorchangetheschedulestatusofacoupleofthesethings,MDMAandpsilocybin.
Dave: WithMAPS?
Dennis: AndHeffteraswell.We'refocusedalotonpsilocybin,andsowe'requietlyworking,muchmorequietlythanMAPS,becausewetendtobethequietone.Wearealsoworkingtoeffectaschedulechangeforpsilocybin.Ithinkwithinoptimistically10yearsor5years-
Dave: Wow.
Dennis: These2,atleast,aregoingtobeavailabletotherapistsforuseinvariousprotocols.That'sgoingtohaveahugeimpactonpsychiatry.Infact,it'sgoingtooverturnthecurrentpsychiatricparadigm.
Dave: Thatispowerful,powerfulwork,andIsupportyourmissionthere.Ifyoucanpullthatoffin5or10years,thatistrulyremarkable.We'reseeingthepublicopinionshiftandthathastoprecedearegulatorychange.
Dennis: Right.
Dave: IdohavemyconcernsaboutthelevelofcollusionbetweenBigPharmaandtheseregulationsandtheselaws.
Dennis: That'strue-
Dave: We'llsee.
![Page 14: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/14.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
14
Dennis: -butanimportantaspectofthisisthatmanyofthesethingscomefromplants,ormushrooms.
Theycomefromthingsthatgrowinthejungle.Youcan'trestrictaccesstothesethings.Youcangrowthem,andinfact,that'sarevolutionaryacttogrowtheseplantsandfigureouthowtousethemandsharethatknowledgeandtheplantswithotherpeople.That'skindofawaytopushbackagainstBigPharma.
Dave: Ohyeah.
Dennis: ThentheotherthingistheworkthattheHeffterisdoing,andMAPSisdoing.Ourapproachhasbeen,"Well,ifyoudogoodscience,thatcan'tbeignored,andthey'llhavetoacknowledgethat."Ifwedogoodscience,andthere'ssoliddatathattheyhavetherapeuticeffects,theywillmoreorlessbeforcedtoapproveitforthosetypesofuses.Theymaynotfundit,butthey'llhavetoapproveit,andthatwillmakeahugedifference.
Dave: Itsurehastakenalongtimeforthattoworkonevensimplethingslikenutritionandtheketosisdiet.AbookwaspublishedtheyearIwasbornonketosisthattalksaboutthebenefits,and43,Iwasobesehalfmylifebecausethatwasneveracceptedbythepowersthatbe.That'sfinallyturning,butitseemstobelikea40or50-yearcycle,maybewiththeinternetit'sonlya5or10yearcyclebecausewhenpeopletalkaboutitenough,justbecausethey'relisteningtopodcasts,heavenforbid,thattheymayjuststandupandsay,"I'mnotwillingtowait.Idon'twanttobeoldwhenI'mallowedtodothisthingthatIthinkmighthelpmewithmytrauma,"orwhateverelse.I'mhopefulfromthatfrontandwaryofthelevelofregulationsthatareinplaceforeconomicreasons,notformyownreasons.
Dennis: Right.Asyoupointedout,thereiskindofaburgeoningmedicaltourismindustryorphenomenonforpsychedelics,especiallyforayahuasca.ManypeoplearegoingtoPeruorothercountriestoexperienceit.Thatisatwo-edgedsword,becausealotoftheseplacesarenotwell-runandthey'renotgenuinetraditionsbecauseit'shadthiseconomicimpactonthesesocieties,andpeopleseethat,"Well,Icanhangmyshingleoutandcallmyselfanayahuascaroandgringoswillcomedownandpaymelotsofmoney."Therearegoodones.Therearetraditionally,well-trainedones,andmany,manywhoarebasicallycharlatans.There'snomechanismtosortoutwhichiswhich.Youhavetoknowtheterritory.
Dave: It'sgottentothepointthatTheOnionjustrecentlyranaspoofaboutthis.I'mguessingyouwouldhaveseenit.
Dennis: Yes,Idid.Veryfunny,andsadly,veryappropriate.
Dave: Forourlisteners,it'sasatirenewspaper,andyouprobablyknowTheOnionbecausethey'refamous,buttheyrananarticleabouthowtheyinterviewedashamanwhowasjustsickandtiredofallthetechCEOscomingdowntotakeayahuascaintheirhoodiesandBirkenstocksandgenerallyjustcompletelyskeweringthewholemedicaltourismforayahuascamovement.I'mkindofaproponentofthat.IwentdowntoPeruandIthinkitwas'99or'97,somewhereinthelate90's,whenIdidit,andIstillhavesomepicturesofit,soIcouldprobablydateitfromthen.IwentdownthereandIdidn'tknowIwasgoingtodoayahuasca,butI'dreadaboutit.Iwas
![Page 15: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/15.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
15
reallyinterestedandIjustmadeafewdiscreetinquiriesandtherewasn'tacharlatanindustrybackthenbecausenoonewantedit.
Dennis: Right.
Dave: EventuallyIfoundtheguyandheshowedupandhadtheblackjaguarobsidianthingandwasareal,legitimatejungleshaman.Ihadareallyinterestingandamazingexperiencewithit,butIthinkifIwentdowntherenow,itwouldbeaverydifferentexperience,andI'velearnedthatyoushouldbereallycautiousaboutwhoyoudothesethingswithbecauseyourdefensesaredown.You'rebasicallyprogrammablewhenyoutakethesethings.
Dennis: Yes,that'strue.Youhavetobecarefulnow.Thereisnooverarchingregulatorybody,andthere'sreasonfortherenottobe,andthere'salsoarationalargumentthatthereshouldbesomelevelofregulation,butrightnow,you'rekindofonyourown.IfyougotosomeplacelikeIquitos,whichistheepicenterofthisphenomenoninPeru,you'llbeasked2or3timesbeforeyougettoyourhotel.Pickedupattheairport,thetaxidriverwillsay,"Doyouwanttogotoanayahuascaceremony,"andifyousay"Yes,"you'llbetakensomewhere.There'llbesomebody,maybethebrother-in-lawofthetaxi.There'snowaytoknow.
Dave: Holycrap.Ihadnoidea.
Dennis: Yeah.
Dave: Ihadtogotothehotelandtheguyhadtosendsomeoneouttothejungle.Itwasalotofdoing,andthey'relike,"Whydoesthisguywanttodothat?"
Dennis: It'scompletelyoutofcontrol,inmyopinion.It'saninterestingphenomenon,Dave.Ihavemixedfeelingsaboutit.
Dave: Icansee.
Dennis: Ilookatthispartlyasanevolutionarybiologist.Ithinkwhatwe'reseeinghereissymbiosisandco-evolutionwithateacherplant.Theindigenouspeopleregardayahuascaasaplantteacher,astheydomanyofthesepsychedelics.Co-evolutionisnoteasy.We'reatsortofthisroughspot,butit'slikeayahuascahasleftthejungleandit'sgoneontotheglobalstageandIthinkofitasakindofambassadorforGaia,fortheGaianmind,andit'stryingtogetitsmessageout.It'sgettingalittlebithystericalbecausewe'renotlistening.Theproblematicmonkeysarenotlistening,andthemessageis,we'rewreckingtheplace.Somanypeoplecomebackwiththissortofrenewedorrediscoveredperspectiveonourrelationshipwithnature,andhowwe'relosingthat.Wehavetochangeourattitudebeforewecanbegintotakestepstoavertallthechallengeswefaceontheenvironmentallevel.
Dave: IwoulddearlylovetosprayayahuascaonMonsanto'sheadquarters,ifsprayedayahuascaworked.
Dennis: Itwillwork,butthereareotherapproachestothis.
![Page 16: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/16.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
16
Dave: Iknow,butifitdid.
Dennis: Right.
Dave: Wearedestroyingthesoil,andIactuallybelievethatthereisanearthintelligence.
Dennis: Ido,too.
Dave: Youlookatwhatrootsdo,youlookatwhatfungusdoesinthesoil,andthesoilisaliving
organism.Itjustis.
Dennis: Right.ThewholeGaiahypothesis,whichbasicallycamefromJamesLovelock,originallyformulatedit,itwasdismissedwhenitcameout.Now,itturnsout,actually,it'snot“Woo-Woo”stuff.It'sprettysolidscience.
Dave: There'sevenabigmagneticfieldaroundtheplanetthatchanges,justliketheonearoundourheads,andit'sactuallykindofscarywhenyoulookatit.Wow,we'rereallyjackingthisthingupandwehavenoideahowitworks.
Dennis: That'strue.
Dave: Ifyoudecidetobreaksomething,andyouknowhowitworks,that'sonething,becauseyoucanprobablyfixitorchangeit.
Dennis: Right.
Dave: There'sacouplelevelsofknowledgethatwejusthaven'tquitefiguredoutnow,evenaboutwhat'sgoingoninourgutbacteria,intheinnerworkingsofourcellularbiology.
Dennis: Exactly.
Dave: It'salot,andfunny.Peopleused,IbelieveitwasLSD,tounderstandDNAinourcellularbiology.We'vebeenusingplantmedicinestogetknowledge.SteveJobs,Apple,alotoftheseinterestingthingscomeaboutbecausewe'reusingthesethingsas,callthemsmartdrugsorwhateverelse,butthey'rechangingourconsciousnessandmakingusmoreawareofwhat'saroundus,andwhenyoupayattention,thereisaplanetanditdoeshavesomeconsciousness.It'sjustnotlikeours,atleast,notourperception.
Dennis: It'snotlikeours.They'recatalysts.Theyletyousteptemporarilyoutofyourreferenceframe,andexaminephenomenonandmaybeyourself,ifyou'reinthetherapeuticcontext,butjustexaminephenomenoninanovelway.That'swhyKaryMullisandJamesCrickandSteveJobsandallthesepeoplehadthesewonderfulcreativeideasbecausetheywerecognitivecatalystsinacertainway.There'snothingdelusionalaboutit.Theirinsightswerevalid.Theyhadthemonthedrug,butthentheycouldgobackandsay,"Well,yeah,thisactuallyholdsup."Ithinkthatthatisoneoftheapplicationsofpsychedelics.Notstrictlytherapeutic.Theygiveusadifferent
![Page 17: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/17.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
17
waytoviewtheworld,andunderstandphenomena,soyoucouldalmostthinkofthemasthey'relikeascientificinstrument,inacertainway.
Dave: Whatdoyouthinkaboutmicro-dosing?There'sahugethingout.I'vetalkedaboutitprettyopenly.There'sahugethinghappeninginSiliconValleynow,asanextensionofsmartdrugs,wherepeoplearemicro-dosingeithermushroomsorLSDatverylowdoses,everysingledayorevery3rdday,forasubstantialperiodoftime,likeamonthatatime.What'syourtakeonthat?
Dennis: Ihaveanumberofdifferentperspectivesonit.IhavetosayIhavenotmicro-dosed,soIdon'treallyhavethebenefitofexperience.Sometimes,ontheonehand,Ithink,well,micro-dosingisfine,butarethesepeoplewhoareafraidtogothefullMonty?You'vegottolearnthingsfromamicro-dose.Imaginehowmuchmoreyoumightlearnifyouactuallytookafulldoseinapropersetandsetting.That'sonething.
TheotherthingIwonderaboutsometimesis,thepsychedelicsproducetoleranceveryreadily,sothat'soneofthethingstheydorapidly,producetolerance.Ifyoutakeamicro-doseeveryday,bythe4thday,it'snotgoingtohavemuchofaneffect,atleastintermsofwhatweunderstandfromwhatweknowaboutthepharmacologyofthesethings.Ultimately,myotherpositionis,well,ifpeoplewanttomicro-dose,theyfeelabenefitfromit,letthemdoit.Whynot?
Igenerallythinkthatpeople'srelationshiptothesesubstancesshouldbeasunregulatedaspossible.Education,notprohibitionistheanswer.Peopleshoulddowhattheydobasedoninformeddecisions,basically.
Dave: Myperspectivethereisreallystraightforward.It'smybiology,andI'lldowithitwhatIwant.AnyonewhothinkstheyhavearighttotellmewhatI'mallowedtodowithmybody,isbasicallydeclaringwaronme,andtheycandie.
Dennis: Itotallyagree.
Dave: Andcomeback.Wecandoadanceorwhatever,butdon'tmesswiththesecells.They'remine.
Dennis: Exactly,exactly.IfIcould,maybeit'scomeuponyourshowalready,butanotherorganizationIlovetoputapluginforiserowid.org,ifyouknowthat.
Dave: Oh,yeah,greatsite.Okay.
Dennis: Yeah.
Dave: E-R-O-W-I-D.
Dennis: E-R-O-W-I-D.Yeah.Bestonlineresourceonpsychoactivedrugsofallkinds.Wonderfulpeople,EarthandFire,Erowidaregreat,andifyou'regoingtomesswiththesedrugs,bookmarkthatoneandgocheckitoutbeforeyoutakeanythingnew.Solidinformation.
![Page 18: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/18.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
18
Dave: There'sacrazysegmentofsocietywhowouldbelike,"Oh,ItookmyRobitussincoughmedicineandIdistilleditandIpouredbutaneinit,andIextractedtheDMandIinjecteditwithatuningfork,"andyou'relike,"Okay,guys,chill.Thatisnotnecessaryforyoutoexploreyourconsciousness,andit'snotsafe."IloveitthatErowidiswillingtowriteitdown,letpeopletalkaboutit,andjusthaveadialog.Butdon'tgonuts.There'splentyofverypotentpowerfulthingsyoucandowithouthairsprayinit.
Dennis: Yeah,exactly.Mypositionis,well,stickwiththeplants.Youknowwhatyou'regetting,andthey'recomingoutofalongtraditionofuse.Yeah,ofcourse,youcanworkwithsyntheticsandLSDisasemi-syntheticcompound,butbyandlarge,thiswholedesignerdrugarea,EarthandFiregaveawonderfultalkonthiswholedesignerdrugphenomenonataconferenceIwasatrecently.It'simpossibletoknowwhatyou'regetting.Ifyouhaveaplant,youprobablyknowwhatyou'regetting,especiallyifyougrewityourself.
Dave: Ifyougrewityourself,buteventhen,there'sdifferentstrains.Differentstrainsofpotcandoradicallydifferentthings.Thenyougetstorageandprocessing.Yougetmoldypot.Youknowitdoesn'tdothesamethingasgoodpot.Itsmellsbad.There'svariantsthere,andoneofthethingsistocultivateawareness."Okay,thatdidn'tworkverywell,eventhoughIthoughtitwasgoingto.I'mnotgoingtodothatagain."
Dennis: Right.
Dave: Tocirclebackonthemicro-dosingthing,afriendmicro-dosedLSDeverydayfor30days.TheexperiencethatIheardaboutwassimilartooneoftheracetams,buttherewasnotatolerancethathappenedatallatverylowdoses,like5%ofanormal,fulltab.
Dennis: That'spossible.
Dave: Itwasprettyinteresting,anddefinitelyincreasingcreativityandespeciallyaroundwords.Theywereabletoassociatewords,findwordsbetter.Itwasprettydarneasy.Yougoalittlebitheavy,andyou'refeelingalittlemoreopenthanyoureallyshouldbe,andyou'reprobablynotasfunnyasyouthinkyouare.
Dennis: Right.
Dave: Kindofperspective.
Dennis: Areyoureadyforthatboardmeetingin5minutes?Yeah.Iknow.It'sproblematic.
Dave: Thatmayormaynothavehappenedonstageatsomepointwiththisfriendofmine.Thatsortofthingisarisk,butIdobelieveifyou'reworkinginacognitiveprofession,wherecreativityandassociationandmakingnewthingsispartofwhatyoudo,there'sprobablyagreatargumentasacognitiveenhancingstrategyentirelydifferentfromhealingtrauma,fromhallucinogenthings.It'sjustnotwell-exploredatall,andI'dliketoseethatexploredmore.
Dennis: Ithinkitisbeingexplored.Itdefinitelyisbeingexploredunofficially.Likeyousay,manypeople
![Page 19: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/19.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
19
atSiliconValleyaredoingthis.Eventuallythereprobablywillbeaclinicalstudy.Theremayalreadybeclinicalstudiestokindofputsomedatabehindthisandsay,"Isthisarealeffect?Doesitimprovecognitivefunction?"Imightmentionjustinconnectionwiththis,whenwedidthisbio-medicalstudyofayahuascabackinthe'90swiththeUDV,oneofthechurchesdownthere,inBrazil,weadministeredabattery,anumberofdifferentpsychologicaltestsandcomparedthosetocontrols.Amongthethingswemeasuredwereverbalandcognitiveability,recall,memoryfunctionsandallthat.ThemembersoftheUDVwerebetterthancontrols.
Dave: Wow.
Dennis: Theywerestatisticallybetter.Notgreatly,notahugeeffect,butenoughtoshowstatistically.Thequestionweweretryingtoanswerwasnot,"Aretheybetter?"Whatwewerewonderingis,"Aretheyworse?Aretheyimpairedbytheirlifelonguseofayahuasca?"Noindicationatallthattheywereimpaired,eithermentallyorphysically.Theyareremarkablepeople.Someofthepeopleinourcohort,inourstudycohort,havebeentakingayahuascaevery2weeksfor40years,andinexcellentmentalandphysicalhealth.Iactuallythinkithasalotofphysicalaswellaspsychologicalbenefits.
Dave: Itseemsto.Iknowaleaderinthepersonaldevelopmentfieldwhohasdone70journeys.Prettydarnsubstantialnumberofjourneysgiventhatyouthrewupforeachofthem.That'sanon-trivialcommitment,right?
Dennis: Right.
Dave: Hedoesitbecauseitworks.
Dennis: That'showIfeel,too.I'velearnedsomuchfromthismedicine.Ithinkthattheindigenouspeoplehaveitright.Theseareteachers.Youlearnfromthem.Theyhaveatremendousamountofwisdom.Theydon'ttalktoyoulikeyouandIaretalking,butthereisatransferofinformation,andthere'salearningprocessthatgoeson.Whoknows?
Dave: Tosaythattakesacertainamountofcourage,becausethereareagroupofpeoplewhowillreflexivelysay,"That'scrazytalk."Here'sthedeal.Idon'tcareifsomeonethinksit'scrazytalk.Ifitaddedvaluetoyou,andyouthinkitmadeyouabetterperson,orimprovedthequalityofyourlifeoryourthinkingorsomethingelse,good.Itdoesn'tmatterifpeoplethinkit'scrazytalk.
Dennis: Generally,thepeoplethatsaythat,they'llreflexivelysaythat.Theyobviouslyhaven'thadtheexperience.
Dave: Yeah.
Dennis: That'salsooneofthegreatthingsaboutpsychedelicsthatIoftentalkabout.Youdon'thavetohavefaith.Youdon'thavetohaveanybelief.Youhavetohavecourage.That'sallyouneedisthecouragetodrinkthecuporsmokethepipeorwhatever.Havetheexperienceandmakeofitwhatyouwill.Don'tbelieveTerenceMcKennaorDennisMcKennaorAndyWileoranyofthesepeople.Godgaveyouananalyticalbrain.Youcanfigurethisstuffoutforyourself,butyoumust
![Page 20: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/20.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
20
havetheexperience,andifyouwanttomakeapronouncementaboutitbeforeyou'vehadtheexperience,I'msorry,whyshouldIlistentoyou?You'renotqualifiedtocomment.That'smyposition.
Dave: Verywellsaid.Thetruescientistisprobablygoingtoexperimentalittlebitandseewhatitdoes,giventhattheharmappearstobeprettydarnlow.
Dennis: Prettydarnlow.
Dave: Well,Dennis,it'sbeenanamazingpleasuretohaveyouonBulletproofRadio.There'saquestionI'dliketoaskyouthatI'veaskedalloftheguestsonthisshow.
Dennis: Okay.
Dave: Ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowandsaid,"Look,basedoneverythingyou'veseenandexperiencedanddoneinyourlife,Iwantyouradvice.IwanttobebetterateverysinglethingIdo.Iwanttokickmoreassatlife.WhatarethethreemostimportantthingsIneedtoknow?"Whatwouldyousay?
Dennis: Togetmoreoutoflife?
Dave: Justtobebetterateverything.
Dennis: Firstofall,neverforgethowlittleyouknow.Ithinkwetouchedonthisbefore,whichIdon'tthinkofasadepressingthing.Ithinkofitasajoyousthing.
Dave: It'sexciting.
Dennis: Ifyouliketolearn,there'ssomuchforyoutolearn.Trytokeeptheattitudeofachild.Keepyourcuriosity,becausetheworldisamarvelousplace,andweonlyunderstandpartofit.That'sabigonerightthere.Secondone,don'ttakeyourselftooseriously.Don'ttakeanybodyelsetooseriously.Keepyoursenseofhumor.That'sanimportantone.Wedon'tunderstandmuch,andwe'rejustsortofalongfortheride,sowhythefrownyface?Wehavegoodreasontobecuriousandtoenjoylifeandenjoyeachother.Thethirdone?Well,Iguessmainly,probably,asaperson,Idon'tpracticethisasmuchasIshould,butthethirdoneisguardyourhealth.Stayashealthyasyoucaninmindandbody.That'sthemostimportantthingyouhave.Thatandthepeopleyoulove.Wearealongfortheride.Wearehavingahellofaride,sokeepyourselfinshapesothatyoucanenjoytheride.LikeIsay,Ishouldtakethatadvicemoretoheart.Idomybest.
Dave: You'relivingagoodlife,that'sforsure.
Dennis: Iamveryluckyinthatway.
Dave: Dennis,thanksalotforbeingonBulletproofRadio.Yourbookis"TheBrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss,"andit'savailableonAmazonandbookstores?
![Page 21: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/21.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
21
Dennis: Amazonandfromthewebsiteofthesamename,brotherhoodofthescreamingabyss.com.
Dave: Allright.
Dennis: Youcangetasignedcopythere.Amazondoesn'tdosignedcopies.Eitherplace.There'saKindle
edition.Yeah,sothankyouforlettingmementionthat.
Dave: Ofcourse.ArethereanyotherURLsorresourcesyou'dliketodirectpeopleto?OurBulletproofreaderslovetoreadbooks.
Dennis: Theotherone,ofcourse,iswementionederowid.org,butalsoHeffterResearchInstitute,whichisheffter.org.
Dave: H-E-F
Dennis: H-E-F-F-T-E-R.We'reanon-profit.We'vebeenaround20years,andinmanyways.Heffterisleadingthechargewhenitcomestodevelopingsomeofthesetherapeuticprotocols.MAPSisveryfocusedonMDMA,andHeffteriskindoffocusedonpsilocybin,notbecauseweplanneditthatway.Itjusthappenstobegoodformanythings.IguessthethirdthingIcouldmention.Iwon'tsaymuchaboutit,butI'vestartedastart-upcompanynow.Wefinallyhaveformedanalliancewithsomefriendswhoactuallyunderstandbusiness,whichIdon't.They'vetakenthatpartoverandsowehaveastart-upcompanythatwe'reveryoptimisticabout.It'scalledSymbioLifeSciences,andhopefullyyou'llbehearingmoreaboutit.
Dave: Excellent.Brotherhoodofthescreamingabyss.com,erowid.org,andsymbio.com.
Dennis: Symbiolifesciences.com
Dave: Oh,symbiolifesciences.com.We'llputallthoseintheshownotesforyou,incaseyou'redrivingandyoudon'twanttogetaticketbecauseyoujusttriedtotypethatintoyourphonewhileyouranintotheguyinfrontofyou.
Dennis: Yes,don'tdothat.Don'tdothat.
Dave: Allright.
Dennis: Allright,Dave,it'sbeenarealpleasure.You'reawonderfulinterviewer.I'vereallyenjoyedthis.Ihopewecancirclebackonthisoneofthesedays.It'sbeenfun.
Dave: Thanks,Dennis.You'realwayswelcometocomebackontheshow.
Dennis: Okay,thankyou.
Dave: Ifyouenjoyedtoday'sshow,youknowwhattodo.HeadonoverandpickupacopyofDennis'book,because,well,it'safunreadandyou'llprobablylearnsomething.Pleasealsodoheedthe
![Page 22: Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic ... · Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329 2 Warning and Disclaimer The statements in this report have not been evaluated by](https://reader031.fdocuments.us/reader031/viewer/2022022018/5b89db517f8b9a770a8e787a/html5/thumbnails/22.jpg)
Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329
22
multiplewarningsthatbothofustalkedabouthere.Don'tplayaroundwiththisstuff,ifyoudecidetodoit.Knowit'sprobablyillegalwhereyoulive.Idon'tknowwhereyoulive.There'saglobalaudienceforthis.Italsocanbedangerous,andpeoplecantakeadvantageofyou,andetc.etc.,butitalsocanhavesomeprofoundhealing.Findpeopleyoutrustifyou'regoingtodoitandobeyalllocallaws,regulations,talktoyourdoctors,anddoallthatotherkindofstuffyou'resupposedtodo.Haveanawesomeday.
Dave: Thanksforwatching.Don'tmissout.Tokeepgettinggreatvideoslikethisthathelpyoukickmoreassatlife,subscribetotheBulletproofYouTubechannelatbulletproofexec.com/youtube,andstaybulletproof.