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)5.T O P SECRET

T I0m .v I- 203

IN T ER R O G A T IO N . O F H ER B ER T lIiA R IN IO K A N D H ER B ER T K O R N _ ,FO R M ElR M EM BER S O F TH E R :TU CH PO ST . ! \ N D OKW/cHI .

1 Attaohed is the report on the interrogations of HerbertliARlNIOKand Herbert KORN,former memoers of the Reiohpoet and OKW/Chi,carried out by Captain MARYe. LJlliE of J \ x m : t S e c u r i t y Agenoy, Europe,a t B E R L I N on 3 - 4 February, 1947.2. Descli"iptions of Telegraphic S:n;tem.s interOtipted by the Germaneand a D e s c r i p t i o n o f X G e r a et t a r c a t t a c h e d t o t h e r e p o r t a s T a b s ( A )and (B). .3 . X Geraet was the apparatus employed t o intercept t r a n s - A t l a n t i ctelephone eelnvel'saticms.

TICOM1 6 t h AprilJ 1947.N o . o f ' P a g es ;II : 1 . 1CopyNo :

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7 .8 .9 .10.11.12-15.

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16.17-20.21...2 4 -2 5 .

U.S.L.O. lp-2Qo..G via U S L 0A.B.A., Washington Director, A.B.A. Europe

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INT:;WOG"~TIONOF ~Lill.lNIOK.HERBLRTh;"!X

1. Introduction;MilRlNIOK,Herbert Hex, ~rr.um no.tionDJ. now employed as rad~o ,technician and operator by Radio Corporation of ~Derica' (ROA) In BcrlLn,

was inteITogC'.teJ. in October 1946 by counter Intelligence Oorps (CI?) .Region VIII (Berlin) on (l. suspicion thnt he possessed radio transL~ttLngcquipncnt and was operating illegally as an amateur. Search of ~s honeby the CIC revealed no L'.J;lParatus and MARINIOKstdcd that the cquapnenfhe had possessed had been confiscated by +he Ger.1M Arl i lY in 1945 ~. Furtherinterrogation revealed that l,;AR.INIOKhad worked as a radio teohnlcianduring the war with the Obez-kormando dcr Wehrmacht (OKW) on an o.pparatuawhich was ab.Le to intercept trans-Atl!l.l1tic telephone conversation. . Th~sfact was r-epor-bed, to the krr:ry Security Agency Europe and the follovn..ng as(l. report of the interrogation ::>fHAR.lNIOKheld at Berlin 3 - 4 February 1947by a representative of the Ar~ Security Agency, Zurope ooncerningt.18RINIOKI work with t~ OKW.2. Biography and persohal Appearance:

Herbert i t1 .u : ll'i.ARINIOKas born 1 Murch 1906 in Berlin. He began tolearn r-ad.i.o opor at.Lng in 1925 and in l.1ay 1928 receaved his license as afirst-class rllw.o opcr-at.or , ' F.r'Clil 1925 to 1 January 1932 he was empl.oyodby the: Ger. : l I .u1 fiTl:1 Uobl;;rsccfunk (Trans~Oceanic Radio) which had connectionswi,th pLaccs in North rna. South iU:1crica, Ohi.ne., Nippon, etc. j'liilRINIOKwaseilployeu as radio technician and operator of tho first-class betweenNowYork and Berlin.

On 1 January 1932 Ucbersccfunk was tc.kon over by the Gornan Rcd.chspcet ,MARINIOKhen became an oMployee of the Roichs'l:x:t:::tand r-cnaanod as suchthroughout the war. On 1 J)ecur.lber 1939 he VIas made Tolographcninspdctorof the, Re'i.cbspoat., In 1~4-1 the Rcic~j?Ost ore.crcd h.izi to Oberkor:o.ando dcrWebrma.cht/Chiffrierabteilung (alGi/Chi) whore he worked until the end of thewar although he rew~ined an oqployee of tho Reichspost.

While lilillINIOK was with OKW/Chihe worked first at tho inte;rceptstation in Dorlin-Dahler:: and later with the intercept station in Ludwigs-felde, where he was in chez-go of trans-AtlD.ntic tcle:,?hone intorc(;;ption.In April 1945 with other members of the station at LudYriesfclde he wastaken to the Schliersec, Bavaria, and from there to Austria whcru her-enaaned until his capture by tho Americans in May 1945.

1f.AR~IOKis n o v : eJITlilcycd.as ra

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lO P S E C R E T2.

1 - 2 January 1944 whenthe laboratory was d6stroyed by bonbing. Aboutthree months bef'or-e this however' a second and b(;)ttor ap)aratus had boenbuil t and this machine, thE)s0con~"'..Geraet, was kept in the Berlin Zooair raid shelter until August _ Scpter.lbor1944 when it v~s waved to abunker especially :,?rGl_)Il.rE::ior it in LudwiSsfolde.The bunker in Ludwigsfclclewas desorfbcd as a room 18 l.1ctres lOIlZJ4 - netres wide and 4.5 netrI":Jsdeep. Abovethe level of the ground was 0.ooncrete pill-shaped box 3 . 7 5 metres hi~h topped with 2 0 centinotres ofsand. The room itself was divided int~ two parts by a partition runninglengthwise. Onone siele of the Jartition were ordinary r0cGiving sets,on the other sid>X Gcract. Twoentrancos led into the bunker, one fror.1either end.X Gcraet z-enai ned in the bunker until 13 - 14 April 1945 whenit wasmovedvii th the two singlc-sidc'bana receivers attached tQ it to the Schliur-sec in Bavaria. At tho Sohliersoo, however, only one day's work ,vas donebefore it bccane necessary for ~Jersonnol to T.lOVC to Austria.. ThG single-sideband r-ccodvons wer-e disl:lantlcd into 30 or morel.'i000.s, loaded onto aIJaf't, and sunk in the lake about 300 - 400 oetrcs frol:! the shore.X Gerac;t,according to MARINIOK,as sunk in the sane place in one piece, except

for the ISynchronising clcvice which was sunk separately. Nopar1 ofX Geraet w~s dostroyea before being sunk, but no action was taken toprovent the corrosive effects of the water ul.'onthe netal.M.ARINIOKas unable to state t.ho exact spot where X Goraet V(8.s sunkin the Schl.Ler see, but said that KORNwouldknow. He stated, however, thatGermansoldiers had sunk nearby about 20 bazookas and that these mightendanger- atteqpts to aaLvagc the machinery.

4. Desoription of X Geraet:!;i'.RINIOKtated that KORNnew mor-e about the X Geraet than he.description of it was as follows :- His

/

There were two single-sideband receivers. one for traffic from New York;one for traffic from London. From these receivers scranbled talk passed tothe X Geraet. The size of this apparatus was approxiI:lately 1.80 metres long,1.65 metres high, and 50 - 60 centimetres deep. Itweighed about 300 poullIis.Onthe front was a row of oscillators, and beneath these six l~s which glowedinterwittently every 20 seconds to indicate whether the hlachine was or was notin phase. Onthe top of the machinowas the synchronising device whichcons'i.at.ed of four "watches". This device was approximately one tletre longand 40 centimetres high. M.IlRINIOKaid that all "watohes" worked together bymeans of meshing gears. Further description of this mechaniam\72.S refl3%'redto K Q R N . Themost important par-t to be retrieved. a.ccording to MbR : m IO K ,was the synchr-ona.s ing device.5. Suocess of X Geraet:

MiJUNIOKtated that during 1943 th" trans-Atlantic telephone con-ver sat ions' -were clear. l--.i'tl::rl..gust 1944, howeverI striot control OVC . lX theconversations end th", usc of a "code-book" by the :participants in theconversation reduced Lnte lligibill ty~ Itwas understoo'::' that tho Hdoci~)herer8"wer-e not able to make any thine out of what was intercepted.6. Similar J1.IWaratusEvolvcG.by RCichpost:

:w.RD'fIOKtated thd the GermanReioh~st had also beon interested inthe develoJ?m:ntof an a:~aratuB to intercc~t telephone conversa.tions. Ithad conducted. serneexpcr-tment s under a Dr. VE'.l"l ' l : :RIJ!:m but the work wasinterrupted by borihi.ngs , l!L.RJlnOK stated that tho Re;ic~ost maobine known" 5" 1 t th .ghb ho 's gg , was as an e noa our od of Regensber-g, Bavaria. It was thosame type as X Geraet but not so successful.Please turn over

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7 Statements concerning LOTZE0.nd l.iUCHE:Dr. LO TZ E (first name unknown) was described as a large man approxi-

mately 1 8 metres tall ;-(ith blonde hair blue eyes and good features. Hehad been' a member of the NSDAP and l!IARINIOKwas of the opinion that he >7Quldnot tell much abouf the maohi.ne if he were found. liiARnrIOKhad last seenLClrZI::in April 1945 as LOTZEwas going to the experiment~ labQrator~ atstaats. This is noV{in the Russian zone but o.t that hIDe was under thecorrtr-o.L of t.ho British. i,iARlNIOKthought that LOTZE mi;_;ht bo working forthe B i ti8h somcwher-e ,

Mr. MUCHEas dc scr abed as asruull man about 1.72 ;~Ic;tTcstall, withblac.k hair, clean- shaven f'ace , and of a very silent manner. H(;;had buil tth", second X Gerfl-et according to plans made by Dr. LOTZC=0. wcul.d KnOWeverything about the '.lachine. Ll ic

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howevcr , KOR1\]"was or-der-ed in lorH 1943 +c duty 11:.thtM Obcrkor.nandodcrWehrI:w.cht/Ohiffri..;rabtGilW1G(Q10.-I/Ohi)'.n.7. was IC.ssignolito tl"l.",inte;reLiptstation P.t Ludwa.gsf'c Ldc. H e served as rD.c..io(;ng:"n8cr at Ludwigsfcldeuntil that stat.Lon was abandoned in .;"-,pril1945; werrt to the Sehlierseowith other racmber s of the station, arid f'r-om there -;0 Bavaria. where he ,lUScaptur-ed, The highest gr",de attainoe. by 1\.ORNclur:..ng the war was that ofWachtneister.

KORNbas been ioJ:1ploycdy the Re.,].ioCorporaLon of An..:;rica(ROA)inBerlin as a rao.io tecnni.caan since 23 October 19l .c6. He lives in Berlin -Char-Lotrt.enbur g Spanclauerberg . 3 with his Dother, l'rs. Augusta KORN. Hisfather is d.aceased; he is un8aXriod. His 2.1~oErance is unprepossessing.Of slight build, thin and weak, pale, neor-sighted and nervous , he gave theimpression of being interested. only in radio and emphasised that h::s interestwas not that of a technician but of e. rcsearcn ana::..yst. K O R N st(tt(:;d thatDr. KOTO 'WSKY , who h ad been removed by th e Russians as a scientist in October1946, had.been a f'orraer' iJrofcssor of his and had offered hiLl a position withhim :1.tone tiD,e. He.was cortain that if he had not obtained the job at RCAhe would haw been Lakcn to Russia with Dr. KOTOWSKY.3. History of X Geraet:

KOHN confirJ.1cd IILJl.INIOKIstater.lcnt that X Geract was invented byDr. LOTZiJassisted by ~;ir.l,ITJO:m:;o enable the Gen;larlS to intercept trans-i~tlantic t&lephone conversations. Ask{;dabout the history of theapparatusJhowover, he statC)d that he had been cODcernedwith it only since itsinstallation at LuClwigsfe1dein ;cu.gust 1944. He had worked with it untilApril 1945 when it had been tak.on to . the Schliersee, and he had hi.mse Lf beenone of the group which o.cconpani:(:(l it by truck. KQ[ilihad a.Lso been on theraft which hac, a'oiJfled the alJ]?o.ratus into thl; Schli(:rsb8 on 1 - 2 IJay 1~1.5.Oontrl.ry to l\,i..iIRINIOK'stater;lcnt, KORl'l" cLaaned that the G..j_:rperatusas sunkin sever a.Ls0cti~ns and not in one j_)iocc. Th(';frame, which hail consistedof thn,e Large parts, was Uroppec.in sections, and the compartr;)cnts of theapparatus itself were d. .roP' . .?ecl separately. KORNwas certain he could packout bl,e exact spot where the parts were sunk, and stat00. that the nearestvillage was ];.ICSB OH. JJ.though ho ws..scortain that the construction ofthe apparatus ccu Ld be seem should tnc parts be retrieved, KORNhought thatno part would be usable 'beccuso of the corrosive influence of the ;7nter.4. Dcsm:iption of X GcrE1.0t:

KORNgave tho following measurel,lents for the X Geraci with its singlesideband receivers: 3 metres long, 2 f.letrc;s high, and 1.5 metres in d.epth.The weight of all he ga.ve aa about 500 kd.Logr'ams , KORN had alreac.y handedto tho o r o a description of X Gcrnet with its method of working, and this isattached to the reJ?ort as Tab (B). .

K O RN statcd.that although he had no oxact knowledge of tho ~portanceof th~ conversat1ons ovorh~nru he knew tl~t conversations of Roosevelt andClnrrchil.l concerning lUliecl prisoners in Italy' and the plans for theirliberation by the Allied troops vrer-c d.i scuaaec., He stated tha.t he hac, also. heard. fO~'merPr irne j;[inist(;;~ Gl"ll.l.:::'chil.l s~JeC\.h:in::;;o !ltr. Hc.J.'TYOj?ld.ns J1 > ' 0 : ' H8.1.'~J.l:lo.n, and Lor~ HD..hfax. He had aLso hear':" Queen Wilhcminn. S"_J?eaking'1 '0 '1th Pr1nce Be.::n.hard : : n Dutch. Each conversation ',ms 6 i ther translatedi.mmddiately and.:;?assoc~n to the evaluators or 1'(;001'.'].0(', on discs and latertranslate~. He.assumea ~~Q.t~h(: int~llibenc6 eain~~ was irr~ortant sincethere we,s a oontrrnuaf war-nang from the technicians oper-atdrig the trans-Atlantic telephones: IIWorning: I!:ne:r:\yight hear". ...

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T O P S E ' " n E T5

6. SioHUI' Apparatus Evolved by Reich'spost: c rm", . . . . th t the "~'~~J1 Rcichspaat had1Vl.U~ confut1Gcl the stuteoent of n ::.R IN IO K ... a .'-""'~, ' c : . areaworkec. on a sir.-lilo.r nach.ine.. This nachmo ol'eratcu. an t. he R133enabC;rg.hathad. h d d t know w .ut was not so good as thE)X Geract. Ll.ko U A R I N I O K e a.o,no .become of tho RCichapost apparatus.

7. Statements concerning Men .lLSsociated with X . Geraet:KORNgave the names of the following men associated with X . GeraetCO-inventors:

L O T Z E , . Dr . (first name unknown}, Credited by K CJ.R N w ith theinvention of X Geraet. KORNwas unab Le to describe LOTZEotherth.."l.Iltha.t he ,70.s a large, thin nan, approximately 1,8 metres tall.He had foru6rly liv(;o. in Berlin, but his present locat~oz: Y{a~unknown to K O R N . A t eno time:: hc .las reported to be 11.vJJ1S an theRussian Zone.h:JJCHEfirst name unknown}, Assisto.nt to Dr. LOTZE. Had livedprior to April 1945 in Berlin-Charlottenburg, but we.s last heard ofin Munieh.

Technicians:BUCHELT,Otto. Worked us a technician in the reoording section.Formerly a resident of Berlin) KORNbelieved he was nowresiding inKlein Marnow,.MecklEmburg, Russian Zone.HUSSLER,Karl. Was present when tho apparatus ,las sunk in theSchlicrsc(;. HUSSI.J:J:c,bout . 3 5 year-s of c.go, is nowr(;siding in.Ludwigsho.ven, (F:rc.nch Zone) on Ostmarkstrasse (number unknown},K E H L E R , Waldeimar. K O B N stat.cd tilat K E H L E R was abcuf 3 1 y89.I'S old,was last known to bL in Husum, Schles'rig-Holstein (fall of 1945), andwas thought to have boen working &t that time for BritishcOlIW1Illliaaions.SllL.ZBRUNN, Herbert. Worked as a govcrru.lBnt cnginecr- on the X G . Colunbia University prcfessorfur f~vf.; years, scrach'-1c j_)rJ.cr to 1333. Upon his return tc Germc.ny hehad boon diseredi t(;d by the Nazis C.5 an oducatcr-, Howas drm'tc.dfor usc as an int0r~"]rett:r bvcause C ,r his knciwlOllgc of Lnglish, wastaken to Bavar La.with th

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T O P S .u R E T6 .

K..Alill:JRG.,Hans Werner. KORN stateCi. that he was nOYI wo~kingfor Office of l,D-litary Goverl1Llent uni ted States ( O M G U S ) inBerlin: addr-eas ; Berlin, Zehlendorf, Sund,ganerstrasse No. 7 (?).KFtON: I i : , otto. Described by K0RN as about 4 lr years old, thoughhe appears younger. IffiON.8had spent about fifteen years inthe United states prior to his return to Germany in 1941, firstinNew York City, where he maintained an interior decoratingbusiness, and later as a German :;:;mbassy clerk in"l/ashington" D.C.lie Vias noW' residing inHambur-g (exact location unknown) and wasthouGht by KaHN to be y;orkins; for the British ilrrrry.

KOR1Iftated that all of the tecrmicians knew less about the X Geraetthan himself J. but that +he inteI'j_)reters could tell better than he the type ofintelligence; c:;ained f'r-omthe conversations intercepted. He himself had. beeninterested only in tho teermical as~0ct of the work.

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