The Entrepreneurs Radio Show_ 023 _Mark del Guercio

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW

Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs that Grow Your Business

Copyright © 2012, 2013 The Entrepreneur‟s Radio Show of 25

EPISODE #23: MARK DEL GUERCIO

Mark Del Guercio

Travis: Hey it‟s Travis Lane Jenkins.

Sandra: And this is Sandra Champlain and we would like to welcome you to Diamonds in Your Own

Backyard. Hello my friend.

Travis: Hello Sandra.

Sandra: So how are you doing today?

Travis: I am wonderful. How about yourself? Did I cut you off when you were about to say something?

Sandra: Always but we giggle and we can laugh. I am just excited because it hit me before we just got

on right now, how much learning and growth that I get from myself out of the show. I love the time that

we get to spend together. There‟s always you and exciting guest in a realm that there‟s always

something good, so thank you for joining me in the creation of this.

Travis: Yeah. It is really exciting, it is fun. It kind of it ramps me off to the level off just the excitement

and adrenalin that I could just jump through the roof? Do you have that level of excitement when you

get started on the show?

Sandra: I do, yeah. Then just hearing what our guest share and some of the hurdles they have

overcome and where they are now it inspires me to take action and things that normally I wouldn‟t

have. I seem to be dreaming bigger.

Travis: Yeah, good stuff.

Sandra: What do you have for us today?

Travis: Well, let me tell you what we are talking about today, okay?

Sandra: Okay.

Travis: The topic is something speaks to both start up and existing business owners. Now the topic that

is under appreciated although it can have a catastrophic results when problems or serious mistakes are

made in your business which is the proper entity to choose for your business, so that‟s for the start up

side of things. Also we are going to talk about some of the mistakes that you can make in managing




and growing your business that can lead to a very serious cash flow problems and even bankruptcy.

Okay?

Sandra: Wow, okay. Yes.

Travis: Now I see this and you know I interact and I do a deep dive with businesses and assessments.

I do assessments in businesses and this is the common problem they look at the wrong elements or the

wrong matrix in their business and that they get into financial troubles. Before we introduce you to our

guest, I have a favour to ask you. If you have enjoyed this free podcast that we have created it for you,

if you would go to ITunes and post a comment and rate the show, this would be a big help for us in

reaching as many entrepreneurs as possible and helping them get started, or helping existing business

owners take their business to the next level just like we are helping you. It would mean a lot to both of

us if you would take the time and the write that comment for us and rate the show. If you‟ll take that

comment over the Facebook page and paste it in the Fan review section you don‟t need to rewrite the

whole new comment just paste the same one in there and rate the show there too we‟ll do two things

for you as a way of saying thank you. We‟ll give you 20 chances to win the Galaxy Tablet and then I will

personally thank you on the show for taking the time to leave a comment. Okay deal? That sounds fair

Sandra?

Sandra: Perfect, perfect.

Travis: All right. With each and every show our objective is to give you a seat right next to us, we were

just talking about this. We want this to be me, Sandra, our guest and you setting up a table and I want

you to feel like you are part of the conversation with some of the most brightest entrepreneurs and

thought leaders in the world. People that have found success themselves and they want to help you by

sharing what they know. Now it‟s taking me years and years and lots of money to get access to these

people through masterminds and other events and now each and every show you get to sit right beside

them with us. So are you ready to get started Sandra?

Sandra: I‟m ready Travis. Let‟s hear who are fabulous guest is today.

Travis: Alright. Let me tell you about our guest today it‟s Mark del Guercio, no I may mispronounced

that. Mark is a buddy of mine I met a little over a year ago and he is a rock star on many levels.

Although I am going to tell you just a few for now, because I don‟t want to overwhelm you. He is a tax

expert on private foundation, charitable gifting strategies, non profit, low profits, social benefit company

start ups. He teaches strategic planning, fund raising, corporate governance. I could go on and on and

on although I think you get the picture. He is one super, super brilliant guy and someone that you

should listen closely to. Without further ado I want to welcome you, our welcome Mark del Guercio to

the show.




Sandra: Hello Mark.

Mark: Well, I am very happy to be here. Thanks Travis and Sandra for having me I am really excited I

went through all your biggest guest and listen to some of the shows and I‟m like wow, it is an amazing

honour to be on here, so thanks again.

Sandra: Thank you.

Mark: For allowing me to do this.

Travis: Yeah. I am super excited for several reasons. Number one, did I say you last name right?

Mark: You did.

Travis: I did. For the first year of knowing you I‟ve been calling you Del Grecko. How embarrassing is

that?

Mark: That‟s the first time.

Travis: Yeah. Anyways, I want to try to figure out a direction that goes here because there are so many

things to talk about. First, I want everybody to get to know you on a personal level because one of the

things that I want to point out to you because it‟s hard to know these things about yourself. But most

people with your background are left brainers, dry, not very outgoing, or doesn‟t have a very vivacious

personality and you are really the opposite of that, has anyone ever told you that?

Mark: I have probably heard that before a little bit yeah, I think so.

Travis: Yeah, are you a left brainer or right brainer or do you know the difference between those two.

Are you familiar with that?

Mark: Yeah, oh yeah. I think I‟m more of a probably a right brainer with developing my left brain so it‟s

more working on the weaker side in this case.

Travis: Right, right, okay. Maybe that explains why you don‟t fall on that normal category that most tax

oriented people tend to come from because almost all people in that industry normally come from the

left brain side.

Mark: Right.

Travis: Now the show is called Diamonds in Your Own Backyard and kind of a quick synopsis is it is for

me I lost everything in my business. There was a phase in my life I thought it‟s the end of my life,

literally. I really come to find that it is the birthing of the newest phase of my life when I learned to let




things go and learn the lesson that was meant to be learned in that process and then move on to the

next phase of my life and so really I found my purpose in that event. It took me some time to get some

perspective and understand that tragedy that completes catastrophic failure was really a diamond for

me. Have you always been super successful or have you had catastrophic failure like that. Would you

mind sharing that story with us?

Mark: Well, I don‟t mind that at all. It‟s funny because I think somebody has never had a story of trials

and tribulations they‟re probably not being too honest or they just haven‟t done a whole lot.

Travis: Right.

Mark: Certainly my background has been one of starting out with family business; becoming

entrepreneur in my 20‟s working that business very hard for about 10 years. Ultimately when I sold the

business, paid off all the debts, paid the taxes which I had no understanding about, I just did what the

people told me to do and followed advisers. I found that I was 36 years old and having to move on. One

point I had this million dollar business with 25 employees it came like the next stopping point for me

was trying my little sister‟s 10 year old Mustang that had been hit by a drunk driver and had a huge dent

on it that little doughnut spare tire, have you seen one of those?

Travis: Yeah.

Sandra: Yes.

Mark: I had moved back to Las Vegas which is where I live now, and I had been move in with my

parents driving this car and the air conditioning didn‟t work and I thought, “How did this happen?” I had

a golden boy success and having to live at home. I think the turning point for me was coming outside

and seeing a note on the car and my parents were in a plan community and the note was like “Your car

is unsightly, and can you park it in the garage because you‟re ruining our neighbourhood.”

Sandra: Wow.

Mark: At that time I was working three jobs. It was a really, really tough time, but you always hear that

saying whether it‟s from Tony Robins or whatever but that point of decision is for me that was the kind

like of the place where I was like. I got to do something different and so I transition into different things.

I started thinking really more strategically about my life, where I want things to go and move things into

several other arenas and still transitioning. If you look at a roller coaster, and you have a big hill and a

big drop and then usually there‟s that secondary one right, that kinds of catches you off guard a little bit.

Travis: Right.




Mark: So I went into that second one, so of instead of a lot of real estate investing over the last 7 to 8

years so I don‟t have to tell people what it was like here in Las Vegas and I have gone to a lot of

different places and went through a lot of trials and tribulations related to that as well. Life is a process,

right? It is a journey and for me that was been the challenges that I have had to face and had to work

through and really learn the lessons to some degree the hard way through experience.

Travis: Right.

Mark: It‟s much easier to learn the lesson by somebody teaching it to you and not having to live

through it. We have to learn a lot of times by your experiences as well.

Travis: Yeah, unfortunately that is the only way that we learn. How did you go from selling a successful

business to having to move with mom and dad? How did you get from the point A to point C there?

Mark: I will tell you what happened is-- I‟m sorry Sandra.

Sandra: No, just what was the business?

Mark: I was in a dry cleaning business and that business changed. I think one of the things that

entrepreneurs particularly nowadays, we are talking about the 1986 end of the period of the early 90‟s.

Times now the way things changed is much faster than even then we are talking now I can‟t believe it

25 years ago or 26 years ago, right?

Travis: Right, right.

Mark: What did happen was the industry changed and there were environmental laws and

retroactive environmental liability which taught me about law suits protecting yourself from that

standpoint. In other words there were governmental regulations that came into place that didn‟t exist at

the time we were in business that made our site contaminated.

Travis: Right.

Mark: So we couldn‟t really sell the business. The equity that was built in that business was the

customer base and of course the real estate and the reoccurring revenue of having an operating

company. But we couldn‟t sell it we would still face the debts, taxes and at the end of the day we ended

up selling basically walking from the business. That was grossing over a million of dollars a year and

still having to clean up some of the debts that was left over.

Travis: Oh, so you didn‟t have any separation between yourself personally and the business then?




Mark: Well, we did. We were using it at times, the president and I we have an X corporation but the

challenge was it was really not about retroactive liability coming to us. It was the fact that nobody would

buy the business based on the contamination of the real estate.

Travis: Ah okay.

Mark: It was kind of a long story but in short version of it is, at the time there was a very small amount

of what will be considered now as hazardous waste which all dry cleaners use at that time, per correct

me a lot of them still use, although they have been phased out. At the time you can store your used

filters and things, we use to stack them up outside the back of the store. Of course, they would drain

into the asphalt, and we throw them in the dumpster which was perfectly legal.

Travis: Right.

Mark: The government has a strange way of being able to pass laws and liabilities and they wide

release retroactive, so that real estate and that entire store site, those two store sites became

contaminated sites. There was a liability cleanup assessment of the corporation, and it‟s a very, very

difficult remediation and environmental hazardous. It was just a real tough stuff place to be.

Travis: That‟s a nightmare.

Mark: Yeah, it is. It‟s that clear, it‟s clear as to what you had to do. You had to dig up the whole site

basically.

Travis: Not to mention you never get rid of the liability that goes with it. You have these materials that

are not biodegradable and you end up owning the liability that goes with them for I think, ever.

Mark: Once you have a remediation company come out. They all eventually take the dirt and so on,

and replace it. But we still had the dot com a business related to purchasing the equipment, it at least

you had $400,000 worth equipment. At the end of the day there was nothing there, right? In getting in

that business, my uncle always said you‟ll be a millionaire by the time you are 40. I was a millionaire at

the time I was 30, in Brooklyn when I was 35, so I go figured.

Travis: It‟s one thing to be broke and trying to survive, but it‟s another thing once you have achieved

incredible level of success and go back to being broke. Being broke is twice as bad.

Mark: I would say that is correct. It was tough. Part of it was through proximity. Somebody

introduced me to this idea of corporate structuring, worrying about taxes, and from that transition in the

financial services, within 3 years, I was doing life insurance cases, worked on Life insurance cases for

safe planning and for succession planning for business owners and key management insurance. I was

the number 1 agent in the entire United States for 2003. I was making 7 figures in commission, and so




literally I changed my entire life within 3 years, and went from being a dry cleaner which when you tell

people you‟re a dry cleaner they look at you like you‟re crazy right, you had to be crazy to be in that

business. To go in to financial services and then eventually do some other thing as well, but again that

roller coaster with the double dip when we move into. When I move to from traditional financial services

into real estate eventually constructing my own view, great time followed by very tough times, right?

That has been the case for a lot of people.

Travis: In the very beginning, you talking about it‟s nice if you can learn things from others. I think there

is a set of things, a level of understanding that we have to acquire ourselves through taking action and

being knocked down to our knees and getting an attitude adjustment. I don‟t know if it has to do with

maturity, all of those other things, and for me, I had to learn things the hard way for many, many years.

Now, probably as I get closer to 40 and after 40 I am much more willing to take advice. I no longer have

that desire to be hard headed and learn everything the hard way. Do you think that is an age thing, a

process thing or what do you think?

Mark: I think it‟s a sign of growth and maturity. When you stepped back and really learn from those

mistakes, and I think that is what makes us a valuable trainer, coach, and expert authority. Is somebody

that has actually been there and done that I mean, when I teach the course that I have.

Travis: Right.

Mark: One thing is that I tell people is that look what I have been through. We were students in the dry

cleaning business, with a bunch of craziness which I could tell dry cleaning stories all day, very

entertaining and funny, but witness that whole process to litigation involving real estate deals, I mean

you name it. I know what it like is to be on that side. I mean on the environmental side the side of

OSHA complaint which OSHA is really racking up now the penalties compared to what they were back

in the 80‟s and early 90‟s, they are really severe. For people with brick and mortar businesses that have

employees, that have moving parts literally like equipment and machinery this is the stuff that you

really, really need to pay attention to. When I was getting involved in the real estate side of things, and

before that the life insurance, the way I sold so much life insurance which I would go to these

conferences and people would say, “How long have you been licensed?” I‟m like, “Well, less than 3

years.” There were guys in there who were 30 years. These are the top producers in the country, but

what I figured out was the way to sell those large cases wasn‟t to sell life insurance it was to sell the tax

benefit. That is where I generated this interest in taxes, because I thought why are people worrying on

this stuff? Again it is really important that things people don‟t necessarily pay attention to. It was never

the insurance it was the tax implication, and if there is one saving thing to losing money in real estate is

the fact that you understand taxes at least you have losses that you can offset with other things and

other income.




Travis: Exactly.

Mark: There is a bright side to that too which is you can erase before either you have to pay legal any

taxes for several years because if you got a couple million dollars worth of losses.

Travis: Offsetting future gains, one thing that I would tell you is I don‟t think that you have made it until

you have been sued anyway. That may be a crazy way of looking at it, but a lot of times you really

haven‟t achieved a high level of success until you have been sued. Because that is just a by product,

when people see that you are successful and a lot of great things are going on at times it seems to

attract those opportunity seekers or whatever it may be.

Mark: Absolutely Travis and I will tell you another thing that happened too in my experience has been

in good times people were throwing money and everything. They were acting very foolishly. They were

doing a lot of deals that they shouldn‟t have. I have spoken at hundreds of real estate events and

different tax topics and people were structuring deals and the folks that were facilitating somebody‟s

courses were telling people, “just go partner up with people and use their IRA and that kind of thing.

The amazing thing is everything is great when the tide is going up and all the ships are rising and

everybody‟s happy.

Travis: Right.

Mark: But we went through a very tough and still are economy and so all of a sudden a lot of folks that I

think would just should never have been in the game, or would never have been playing it as big as

they were playing took some pretty big hits and of course they looked for the deep pockets or a sign of

blame and not taking personal accountability and saying “Hey, I‟m a big boy”, I bet too much on red and

black came up or whatever analogy.

Travis: Right, right. Do you really know who you are dealing with until that you know what hits the fan

because that‟s when you see the true colours, right?

Mark: Absolutely, and that‟s one of the things that I think is the cautionary tale in teaching these to folks

that are working to joint venture or raised money whether it‟s for business or for a real estate deal is

that you better make sure that you have your entities in place you have your action plan in place, you

have your disclosures in place, you have done all your registrations whether it‟s or other things. People

who are not doing that really are exposing themselves to a great deal of risk. And the easy money has

been made I think we‟re a different time now.

Travis: Right.




Mark: It‟s reflected in what we see and the way people are communicating and what focusing on and

frankly that‟s like your story and that‟s a good thing, right?

Travis: Right.

Mark: I mean we all probably needed to be a little bit more cautious the tendency as human being is

underestimate risk.

Travis: Right.

Mark: And when you underestimate risk you‟re going to get burned eventually. I think we are a little bit

more cautious but that‟s people need to be aware of.

Travis: Yeah, I agree. I kind of you communication throw in the ball so let me first throw at you and see

what you come up with because everybody listening is an entrepreneur and we both agree that the

things we are talking about are not sexy topic so most people I think down play them or maybe they just

don‟t realize how important they are they do their lack of experience, I don‟t know. I know that there

were times where I down played them also. What were you going to say Sandra?

Sandra: I just think it‟s what we don‟t know, we don‟t know.

Travis: Yeah.

Sandra: So where do we get to a level where we are going to find out about these things?

Travis: Stage 1 of confidence right, is you don‟t know what you don‟t know, right?

Sandra: Yeah and it‟s intimidating to know and sometimes and I notice from my personal experience is

it‟s easier to turn my head to it because I don‟t know. I don‟t want to feel stupid by asking and just avoid

it so it‟s all true important to find out and thank you Mark for sharing some of those with us because it‟s

like you got to take notice. That just hurts me when you said you don‟t reach the level of success until

you get sued and I‟m like “Oh, no.” I really do.

Travis: You just got to settle into it that‟s just the way that it is. That‟s the fact of life, Zebras have

stripes and businesses get sued and that‟s just the way it is. Right Mark?

Sandra: So bring it on, start throwing those balls Travis. Let‟s see who it is you saw.

Mark: I think the challenge of it is again a lot of facts are thrown after you will hear people will say if you

are in businesses there‟s a 1/4 chance of being sued which statistically is true. But there are people

that go through their entire business life and never encounter litigation and it really depends of what you

are doing.




Sandra: Right.

Mark: Obviously between certain occupations, medical doctors are extremely aware of this because of

the cost of malpractices and the way attorneys love to advertise now for about the last 20 years or so. I

mean, it‟s created the whole secondary economy which is a multi-billion dollar business. If you are in a

brick and mortar business and you have customers coming in and out, you got employees I mean I can

tell you on my experience with the different businesses I‟ve had. What I‟ve seen litigation first hand

environmental OSHA wrongful termination, sexual discrimination, I mean you name it, right? It wasn‟t

me necessarily my employees, people that came to visit, it can be anything, it can be your employees,

your vendors, your customers.

Travis: Right.

Mark: That‟s something that is out there, I think the other thing though is just psychology of winning this

lawsuit lottery, right?

Travis: Right.

Mark: We did a poll few years back and I said what‟s at a thousands of Americans, what‟s the best way

to become rich in America and they said win the lottery and number two is win a lawsuit.

Mark: For a lot of people and they are not the people that they are in our peer group necessarily but for

people that are.

Travis: And that pisses me off.

Mark: That‟s a way a lot of folks think, right?

Travis: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: They don‟t realize or don‟t make that equation that as a business owner or entrepreneur you

have taken out all the risk, you‟ve risked your own money, your time, your feelings, your intellect,

everything. Put that on the line, created something to employ people and take actions.

Travis: Right.

Mark: Should have a lawsuit or something else put you out of business, including sometimes the

government does that not necessarily intentionally but it‟s a by product of regulation and control.

Travis: Right.




Mark: It is important to be aware of, I don‟t over emphasize the risk but I would say yeah, you are

putting together real estate deals and you can get to, you probably will at some point something‟s going

to happen, right?

Travis: Yeah. A lot of our people are not putting real estate deals in and so it still applies to them also,

so let‟s throw that ball that I was talking about. Why do a new business owner, why do they need to

consider using an entity? What do they use an entity and why?

Mark: Okay. I think the station with an entity we are talking about technically a corporation, a limited

liability company or some cases a limited partnership. What we are talking about is a separate legal

entity from themselves. In the perspective of the law, by the way I am not an attorney. I‟m tax adviser.

I‟m licensed to do tax representation but not law, but generally speaking the concept is by using a

business entity it separates you as the person and your personal assets from the assets of the

business. As long as you are again generally speaking following the formalities, operating that business

entity, life at business following your annual list doing whatever the requirements are in the state would

reform. Generally speaking the person who wants to sue you the plaintiff the entity it cannot go after

your personal asset. That‟s the primary distinction about the protection if you take them like a castle;

you know where the castle has around it as a moat like a moat design to keep the key people out of the

castle.

Travis: Right.

Mark: So that entity is really your moat and your castle walls to protect what‟s inside.

Travis: It insulates your personal assets, right?

Mark: Absolutely. Over that years though and for a variety of different reasons and time and again you

hear, but those protections happen to some degree withered away. Attorney‟s will attempt to go around

that because if you think about it in our system here in the US, attorneys work on a generally a

contingency basis so they only get paid if they recover a percentage of the damages. They will take

cases that tend to be easier to litigate so somebody doesn‟t have a business identity that is much

easier for them to go after the person that is not using something. Even the context of experts and

authorities it depends on what you are expert in what you are giving advice about whether or not you

have a better exposure to liability or maybe very little, so there‟s whole variety of a whole range of I

guess how potential exposure.

Travis: Right.

Mark: But that‟s the basic concept. I think for most people its minimal depending again in the industry

or what you are expert in. I think the bigger benefits that are less discussed and understood are the tax




benefits because those are immediate benefits that everyone who has a business entity would probably

be able to take advantage of them some way or another.

Travis: What do you mean?

Mark: Well, I mean for instance some of the things that you can write off the dot as a company that you

are either limited to or cannot as individual. I think the level of audit for business entities is much less so

the entire revenue service tends to focus on sole proprietors. People who are not using the business

entity because they may choose something one, under reporting their income or that two, they are over

reporting expenses.

Travis: Right.

Mark: When you are using that formal structure of a corporation over that of a limited partnership there

is an assumption on the services part and to revenue service that you have a little bit higher level of

sophistication and you are less likely to either make mathematical errors or intentional tax evasion type

situations which obviously you wouldn‟t want to do.

Travis: I guess what is strange about that is that you could still over report expenses or under report

income with corporation. It is just that they are assuming that you are more organized and more

professional, is that the assumption?

Mark: I think that is part of it, I mean schedule of C would let‟s take a step back, if you are sole

proprietor which will be somebody that is operating a business as you so in other words, all of your

income and your expenses would be your business expenses and income would be reflected on what

is called schedule of C.

Travis: Right.

Mark: Each year the IRS will distribute numbers, on the number of audits based on certain types of

returns and so on. Historically, scheduled C filers are the most audits. It is still the most common form

of business. I believe the reason is number one; there is really no cost of to being a scheduled C, so

you don‟t have the administrative cost or tax reports of leaving an entity. But the other side of that is

that it tends to beat people that has small businesses that are less sophisticated and I think that the

IRS, I can‟t speak for the Internal Revenue Service but I can tell you based in totally what I know and

what I‟ve read and what I‟ve talked to people about, I have been doing this for a number of years I think

there is an assumption that because their sole proprietor will not be keeping his deed of records that

they‟re co-mingling funds and that they are not clear about expenses. And there are a lot of sole

proprietors who are really hobbies that are being masked as businesses which doesn‟t mean that those

expenses are not deductable. Somebody has a hobby in fixing up cars and they‟re taking auto parts




expenses and things for their hobby and a schedule, even the IRS would say that is not legitimate

business expense.

Travis: Right. I see that happening a lot with corporations also with co-mingling funds and I don‟t think

they understand the gravity of that. You really have no corporate veil when you co-mingle funds

because they can pierce that veil and go after you personally and immediately.

Mark: Well, that‟s exactly correct Travis, that‟s part of I guess the knowledge execution gap that is out

there related to this. One of the things that is the necessary evils that is key to how do you maintain

those corporate formality. There is actually a book called “Piercing the Corporate Veil.” It is written by

Attorney Steven Presso. Like the bible of being able to disallow a corporation and so not only does it

have all the state statutes, it has the court cases and the cases that attorneys have used to have a

judge set aside that corporation. Simply because in a lot of states because the formality weren‟t adhere

to so both go to court and the person realize that the corporation can‟t be sued personally. And also

yeah, but in this State there are all these different conditions, co-mingling of funds, not keeping your

corporate records up to date and things like that so and the judge look at it and set it aside right there.

Travis: Right, right. I want to make sure that we are not overwhelming people here because there was

a time when I felt I had overwhelmed because I felt like I needed to know everything. It felt like I needed

to know about law, I needed to know the tax and really I come to realize that I just need to know the

over arching important structure of it and then have highly competent capable people handling the

execution. Did I say that properly and do you agree?

Mark: Yeah, I agree. There are several different levels say part of this where are people get there

information, right? And usually like in this topic a lot of times you are getting information based on

proximity. So if somebody else says what have you done? Well, I said up “I went out of line and set up

an NLOP. Well great, is that appropriate? Is that type of entity appropriate? What Tax collection did

they make? There‟s a lot of other things but typically that‟s where it ends, and I can tell you from

speaking at events for the last 10 years. I get pretty how many people came up to me and said “Yeah, I

set this thing up I am not sure what, how it works, I‟ve never, for instance they want it to protect their

assets but they‟ve never put anything in it or they never activated, they have never done the minimal

amount of filing. They just set something up that‟s not the end, that‟s the beginning. Your point about

having to learn it all I think the challenge is this and it‟s really more than an entrepreneurial question

than it is, that‟s really about entities and taxes and the question, what is your time‟s worth?

Travis: Right.

Mark: Because for someone to spend the time and effort and to give me a minimal level of expertise

right? If you have read that book, “The Challenge Overated” they say if you really become an expert




say 10,000 hours and write and talk about it. If that‟s what you think it is, you don‟t have much time and

really focusing on making money in your business or your area of expertise and outsourcing those

activities to competent advisers but at the same time knowing the questions to ask. I think that is the

biggest challenge that not only new entrepreneurs but even seasoned business owners tend to forget

or stay up on is the tax law in particular obviously is changing. We are going to go to the biggest

change in tax law since 1986 and to have a long term effects. As business owners we need not know

what those are, do we know exactly? No. We need to know what question to ask our tax advisers so

that we can structure our fares in our business, going forward to what the laws look like today, or let‟s

say once this situation is resolved, hopefully soon. Like the time in people listen to will be some at least

agreement on what‟s going to happen with this Fiscal split issue you and how taxes are going shape up

for 2013.

Travis: Let me stop here Mark, that‟s part of what the show is all about and part of the reason why I

have you on today is I think I go deep with a lot of businesses. I am not talking about small business, all

businesses. Million to million, four million, five million, and they are still are uninformed about the things

that you and I are talking about right now. They are still co-mingling funds. They are still doing so many

things that would get them into trouble. Just like Sandra said, “they don‟t know what they don‟t know.”

To show them to move to the second stage of confidence which is, “now knowing what it is that you

don‟t know.” The third step is my mind is connecting them to brilliant people like you and other people I

have come to know. But it took me 22 years to get these connections. Like what you said, things are

changing so fast that rather than taking 22 years to figure out who you can or you can‟t trust because it

seems like everybody is giving advice on stuff that they are not qualified to give advice on. None of

these are probably not true but it really rows me up. It sounds to me that it is something that rows you

up too because you mentioned that they are taking advice from the person feeding beside them or

something they found in the internet, right?

Mark: Oh yeah, I mean it‟s just outrageous the things that I have seen.

Travis: It‟s like performing surgeries on themselves. Like have you seen that TV commercial where the

doctor and the guy is performing surgery on himself and he‟s like “Should I really be doing this?”

Mark: Exactly.

Sandra: Oh no.

Travis: In your example, people file papers on their corporation based on someone‟s half baked

suggestion, right?

Mark: Absolutely. Here‟s the thing, I think the epiphany that I have in really started digging into this, and

one thing that a lot of people sometimes surprise me. Like I read the tax code at night, I literally lay in




bed, I love this stuff. For me, it was life changing. It was life changing when I was making millions of

dollars. It was life changing when I was losing millions of dollars. At least I knew how to deal with the

losses that offset income making the income go forward. So for me, understanding this had a very

personal level but it is also, this is going to sound odd, fun, and entertaining, right? Because it‟s

something that nobody understands about. It‟s a great business to dig in because there are barriers to

entry. In fact, one thing that most people are not aware of is that tax preparers up until 2013. Next year

we are never required to have any kind of confidence in our lives, did you know that?

Travis: No. I don‟t.

Sandra: Wow.

Mark: If you are tax preparer in the United States for a fee, the way the IRS describes a tax preparer,

somebody that prepares tax returns for another person. There was no regulation whatsoever. Anybody

can be a tax preparer, and their level of expertise, you know everyone knows that taxes are complex.

There is not one person who would say that “Oh no, no, no it‟s really pretty simple.”

Travis: Right.

Mark: I tell my wife, I learn something every single day. I have it made. I despise days of continuing it. 5

full days this year I was like, “Wow, holy cow.” There is stuff to know right? They not even about the

changes because they not there yet. I mean, If there‟s this thing where there is a lot of bad advice,

there‟s a lot of people who had been unregulated and under licensed to set up 750 thousand fake

preparers who are going out of business in 2012 because they didn‟t meet the requirements to get

licensed for 2013. During this business that‟s a good thing right. One of the reasons that I have been in

this business is there are barriers to entry, because I work for business that are scalable, sustainable,

and sellable. I can scale it. It‟s definitely not going away. No one‟s proposed simplifying the tax code.

The proposers will never do it. I mean really simplifying it. Going to a flat tax, national bill tax, low

deductions, you think that will ever happen? No, of course not.

Travis: No. Although it would be the answer? The flat tax would be the big step towards solving some

of our national problems.

Mark: Think of this, when you get into taxes, non compliance, non filers, cash businesses, anyway that

is a whole other topic. So, that‟s the challenge. I think for people who are on this call, I mean finding

somebody, a student of the process and who is willing to tell you “I don‟t know the answer to that.” I

mean people ask me legal questions all the time, and I say I am not an attorney. If you have a legal

question and it is specific for Massachusetts, or wherever you live Texas, or California, talk to an

attorney at that state. I am not going to practice law about a license. That is not what I do. I have a

federal license for federal tax issues; a related case is internal revenue. So that is my area of expertise,




now my core competencies expands because I have been a business owner, because I do what I

teach, I live what I eat, I‟m in this every single day. It doesn‟t mean I have all the answers right? But at

least it is better than the alternative. Which is people who are unfortunately going out and setting

something up having no idea whether it is appropriate or not. Probably setting it up, intending to do with

one intention and having a whole different result. Because it had been appropriate for them.

Travis: Right. A good illustration of that is, I hate to read directions and so I have put this entire desk

together and when I got it together, I finally see why they told me not to do, why to turn piece A at a

certain direction. Now I have to take everything apart. I say that for an illustration because a lot of times

people don‟t understand the seriousness and the impact of improperly setting things up and improperly

filing things. You can spend a lifetime building this business and this passion of yours, and due to the

silly little loop holes or the mistakes that you have made so many years ago, if you don‟t have an expert

looking at this and making sure that you doll things out and you have doll things in and that you have

covered your rear because it is about protecting your assets and your legacy and all these other things

for your family. Then you‟re crazy. It‟s crazy. Your choice is crazy. Is that a fair analysis of that?

Mark: Yeah, I think in all arenas. But then again a lot of people want their variety because they

minimize their liability and the risk of lawsuits. Some people don‟t really have a lot of liability. I

understand, that I am not one of these folks who are out there, who are saying you need 15 LLC and

corporation just to manage that and fix trust it‟s just way over engineering of what we are selling. My

philosophy is every time you set up an entity, there is follow through, there is tax reporting to go with it.

So think it through, at one point I was up to 16 entities because I had a whole bunch of real estate deals

going.

Travis: Right.

Mark: I am not doing what I do right? As things wound out, I wound out entities. I filed final returns and

started moving that ball forward. I will tell you one thing that I think that is something most people will

agree with, that the Internal Revenue Service, I just do this with my dealings with them in representing

clients on both profit and non profit side, their systems are getting a lot better and things like matching

up 1099 which are independent contractor income and things like non reporting of foreign bank

accounts for instance is a huge hot bun. Now that doesn‟t capture most people. But for instance we

have worked with a lot of Canadians and vice versa US persons investing up in Canada, they might

have partners in Canada. So a US person who opens an account in Canada for convenience to do a

real estate deal or something, if they are not reporting that account, the 1st penalty is thousands of

dollars. The 2nd penalty is half the accounts value. My point is that the IRS, some of the areas of

enforcement are very aggressive and they are much better at putting things together and tying these

loops that weren‟t always easy to tie because their system were not up to speed with the craftiness of

the peoples that were either intentionally or unintentionally structuring themselves. We all know that the




federal government is at the tremendous hard place for money right now, and so tax enforcement and

assessment of penalties preparer‟s penalties are severe. Preparer‟s penalties, so people who giving

you advice are under a lot of stress and they make sure that they give you the right information. I‟m not

talking about aiding or beating tax evasion, I mean that is illegal and I would never do that. I am just

talking about simple math errors that can cause to prepare thousands of dollars in penalties. So the

whole industry is heightened up quite a bit and it is the things that people perhaps, are not paying

attention to that the IRS can assess penalties and assess interest if you ever had a tax liability. It is

almost humorous, I have years and years ago in the early 90‟s, I had a 2,000 dollar liability and it grew

into like an 8,500 dollars and I never knew that it existed. It was a 1099 and I had failed to report. I was

like wow where did that come from. The way it works is that you don‟t find out right away, so the

penalties and interest can be 2 to 3 times the original bill. That was a hard lesson to learn but

something to pay attention to.

Travis: Right. You were saying that there is a preparer‟s penalty, is that new?

Mark: Yes, There‟s something called circular 230, and over the last couple of years the Internal

Revenue Service really looked at feeing preparers which are unlicensed, unregulated and they looked

at really the entire advisory side, really the underlying piece of that was it was easier to go after

preparers in aiding and abating tax evasion than when it was the tax payer‟s. Does that make sense?

Travis: Right.

Mark: Well yeah, you have patterns of criminal activity; you might have one preparer that was

submitting some types of returns, the returns were returned income credits, which is a really hot bun for

the IRS right now. So, they started using the computer systems in filing everything together and

pooling, like the preparers who had the same patterns. Just in this training last week and they were

talking about a local tax payer‟s office which had 100% refund rate of all the returns that they were filing

on half the plan. That‟s a 100%. Not everybody is getting a refund.

Travis: Right.

Mark: So the IRS will pull that, and they said “let‟s get the bad apples out of the system.” Let‟s require

these folks to have a minimal amount of licensing, which was what has recently what has gone into

place now for next year. So let‟s go after preparers and all income tax attorneys, everyone.

Travis: There is an algorithm to check and track down the cheaters, because you use outliers right?

Figured out who your outliers are and that‟s how you catch cheaters, and cards, and everything else is

look for the people who are not within the grid, and then examine them if they are not in the normal

pattern of what they are doing.




Mark: Here‟s the thing that is really important. If you think of the tax code in particular, you can tell I

have. I think the NSPs are something that for most people gets the appropriate entity and set it, don‟t

forget it. All you have to do is those minimal formality not as complex or complicated as it seems or

sounds. As long as you have the correct entity for what you‟re doing. But beyond that you really need to

manage your tax budget. Because that could mean the opportunity and the tax code is really an

incentive plan for business owners and investors. Really if you think what is in a tax code, the reasons

that there are deductions are things like mortgage interest, charitable contributions, for investing in oil

and gas, for investing in real estate, the reason just convex with what the government wants us to do.

They want us to go out and invest in businesses. Because businesses employ people that will pay

taxes. So if we change our mindset away from “It‟s the big bad IRS and tries to squeeze us for money.”

As entrepreneurs and business owners trained as leaders and experts, we can leverage with flair with

big companies and apply it into our small situation, our small businesses we can really take some huge

benefits that are life changing on our bottom line.

Travis: Right. You know Mark, I want to jump in from my side and I have a fraction of the knowledge

that you have. But many years ago I figured out that my accountant was not giving me strategic advice

in how to live through my business. And so I did a little reading and he just seemed too conservative

not to do anything that would get me in trouble, but I came to realize that if I pay for something through

my business pre tax instead of post tax. If something cost 100 dollars, I had to make 140 dollars to pay

the tax on it. That‟s hundred for a hundred dollar item and just mathematically speaking, I knew if I

could pay that with 100 dollars pre tax then I would be ahead of the game, right?

Mark: Yes, that is the most important thing that has been said in this call is that you only get that as a

listener. But if you really think about that, the difference between buying things with pre tax versus after

tax dollars is literally life changing. I mean that one distinction will change your life.

Travis: All of a sudden, you are playing by a different set of rules than everybody else.

Mark: Correct.

Sandra: Can you guys have some examples? Sorry to interrupt but...

Travis: Oh no that is just fine. If you‟re the specialty, I could tell you some of the things that I would do.

I may want to travel somewhere personally and what I will do is I will find a way to conduct business

there and I will let my business shoulder the expense of that trip. Is that a good example of a fair and

equitable way of doing it Mark?

Mark: Absolutely. I think the second distinction which is alignment to what you said is this is something

a lot of people never think about, it is so simple and obvious. It‟s not at all or nothing gained right? So

for instance, if you have a vehicle that you‟re vehicle may not be used a hundred percent for business.




Most people don‟t have a 100% business used vehicle. A dry cleaning van that was used only in the

drycleaners is a 100% business used. However you may have a percentage of business use that you

could allocate for the entire cost of that vehicle. Meaning to purchase the vehicle, the operating

expense, the insurance, the registration, fuel, and so on, so if you‟re look at it, what your operating

expense for the vehicle for the cost of the year. I made analogy that the reasonable amounts like 20 or

30% and there‟s a gain. Travis your point was that there is a rule and these are the technical points that

I teach, and a whole thing that you have to follow in order to do this, but they are not that complex. In

fact this is amazing. Someone told me just last week, I haven‟t checked it out yet. They say there is an

app for your Iphone, or android phone that when you click it when you are in your car, based on the

GPS. You click it when you go to business use trip and it will automatically calculate your business

mileage. All you have to do is remember to click on and click off like when you go leaving, wherever,

going to the next business place. At that point technology is amazing. I said “wow that is super cool.”

So the point is if you have a cell phone, it may not be for 100% business use but there‟s a portion that

you can allocate for business use. If you have children that can do reasonable work on behalf of your

business. Right? They happen to work that you would pay somebody to do and you have to document

that they have done that. You have to pay them properly, but they are a different tax rate than you and

it is work. So you can get money to that. You can fund an IRA for them through your business. You can

pay for medical insurance through your company if you‟re paying medical insurance out of your pocket.

Everybody else is very expensive. Alright, so it seems like that if you add them up, I tell people let‟s

take all the things that you pay for in your life and see if there are some ordinary yet necessary

legitimate expenses in you that we can either take a hundred percent or allocate a percentage right?

And we‟ll go down that list and add it up 5 or 10 thousand dollars. I mean for most people that is a

significant amount of money.

Travis: Right.

Mark: People. How did people on this call pay for education? All of us, right? Bring them up.

Travis: To sum them up, its education it‟s all a write off.

Mark: Yes, business related education. So there are things that are out there. If you‟re starting a

business, start up expenses of 5 thousand for educational expenses which per year entities can cost

like that 5 thousand for this current year 10 thousand dollars. So I am going to add here a 30% tax

back. It‟s like putting 3 grand in your pocket, but people don‟t think that way. I think that is the standard

point is “You don‟t know what you don‟t know.”People are sometimes a little embarrassed to ask a

question, I mean what a complicated stuff. Like I said, I don‟t know what to do. I am looking at them all

the time. I‟m saying like alright what do I need to do? Who do I need to talk to? How do I find out?

Right?




Travis: Yes. Because that rabbit hole goes so deep and it keeps on changing right?

Mark: Exactly. Well, you don‟t need to know everything. You just need to know how to resource it and

not be afraid. As long as you can substantiate what you are doing and provide the level of

documentation the IRS requires, you‟re fine. You‟re cold. They are not looking for you. They are looking

for big fish. One of my friends was a works case manager in here and he ran a ticket office and was

high risk for 35 years. Casinos here, any business over a billion dollars that has an in the house monitor

24/7. Casinos have high risk employees they never mix casinos in lawsuits.

Travis: Right.

Mark: That‟s what they are looking at. They are not looking at small businesses that are taking ordinary

and necessary business expenses that you can substantiate. Like it or not lavish with caviar, I mean

use the things as gifts it‟s really a business expense. You can buy a computer as gift. You can buy a

video camera as a gift. What do you use it for? Are you using it on your property? Are you using it as a

tool? All of that stuff and keeping a little bit of tracking to it making sure that you are getting every dollar

out of it.

Travis: Excellent stuff. Let me shift gears on here really quick. I have a couple of questions that I

wanted to ask you. Our goal was to always try and bring as much value as possible to everybody who

are listening, and so what book or program made an impact on you related to business that you would

recommend and why?

Mark: I think 3 books had a big influence in me. First one is Robert Cialdini‟s “Influence” just in a

context of knowing what motivates people and as business owners and entrepreneurs I think

everyone‟s number one challenge is typically customers, customer acquisition, asking people to move

over.

Travis: Right.

Mark : I love the book Influence Malcolm Gladwell‟s Tipping Point is another one, like how small things

become large. How they pick up speed and I think again for those of us who are creating movement.

It‟s very important that we study how that works. The third item book for me is Man’s Search for

Meaning Viktor Frankl. I think what we look for in our lives; in business is not necessarily the

perspective of what‟s most important. We tend to emphasize activities instead of resolved. Really,

what‟s the bottom in run that we are going for in being in business? Ultimately for most people, it‟s

contribution. Whether employing a thousand people, I mean that is contributing to society and that is

paying the taxes that you are supposed to be paying and that‟s contributing. Looking at really what is

our purpose, and really examining not only obviously as people, but as business owners, and really

putting that perspective as to what we are doing.

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Travis: Good stuff. I have read the first two, and I agree with you both of those are great books. You

said the third one is Man‟s...

Mark: Man’s Search for Meaning Victor Frankl

Travis: Ok, excellent. I‟ll put that in my list. Let me ask you. What is one of your favourite tools or

pieces of technology did you recently discovered, if any, that you would recommend to business

owners and why?

Mark: I don‟t know if I have a recent tool. I use a lot of different tax tools which more than help people.

Travis: Right.

Mark: But I know that you don‟t want to really get in all that stuff. We use InfusionSoft with

CustomerHub. We seem to have good success with that. I think that again the small distinctions if we

are in the information marketing business. If we are in the business of client acquisition, being in front of

people, and building trust and credibility, these are important things that are game changers. For me,

one of the things that I realized is that my former life as a business owner with lots of employees is that

I no longer want to be in that place.

Travis: So we agree on that.

Mark: Yeah. Much more, you know it‟s much more of a lifestyle. In business, in order for you to do that,

again I look for scalable, sustainable, and sellable. How can I scale it without having to have 25 or 50

people or more to manage it, those are the tools that I have picked up from people but that is what we

are using here.

Travis: Okay, okay. So Infusion Soft is a great answer there also. If you were a tree, what kind of tree

would you be? No, I‟m kidding.

Sandra: Oh, I am thinking we don‟t discuss that question Travis. Hey Mark, how do people find out

more about you because for me I just listen to most of this because it is a new world so you scratch the

surface and left wanting more? What‟s the next step? How do we find about you? Where else can we

get information?

Mark: Well, I mean you can reach me in a different one, email me, I am fine with that. It‟s

mark@taxmentors, T-A-X-M-E-N-T-O-R, [email protected], Mark del Guercio. I am on LinkedIn.

My web presence is I think is mutual development, that‟s why I am moving into a little bit more

advanced state for first quarter next year. We have the non profit present and some other things out

there as well. Those are the two ways to get a hold to me, you go to lvseminar.com and see what we

do related to the event that I hold roughly every quarter so which is on the education. One of the things


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that I believe in is this stuff is really left behind, they can be really boring. I think you get a stand I have

a lot of passion for it, I also have a lot of passion for teaching and having fun.

Travis: Right.

Mark: You got to learn some boring stuff, you are going to have a good time when you are with me.

Travis: Yeah, I know you are a funny guy. That‟s why I do that crazy question in there because I know

you are kind of easy going and can handle anything. I do have a serious question, what famous quote

would best summarize your belief or attitude in business?

Mark: I think it‟s the quote from Alexander Hamilton who is one of my personal heroes. The quote is

„Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything’. I believe that is true in so many levels right now. I

think it‟s true for a lot of folks in our society that people are just political correctness, fear, ignorance,

they‟re afraid to take a stand, they‟re afraid to take a position.

Travis: Right.

Mark: I think that‟s part of why we have so many problems today. It is part of the reasons why our

congress has been on this paralysis I mean if you couldn‟t put balance your budget, in your house, I

mean you can always run that debt for so long and something‟s bad is going to happen. But our

government know how to do that I believe it‟s because people haven‟t taken a position and said „Hey

this is unacceptable, it‟s none negotiable‟.

Travis: Right, right.

Mark: That‟s to me, you better stand for something and take that position otherwise we‟re going to be

dealt, whatever cards and circumstances, and when you dealt cards sand circumstances you were

really calling yourself victim.

Travis: Right.

Mark: I don‟t think anybody on this call is a victim and so we need to all stand for something whatever

that is.

Travis: Right. I agree with you 1000% so much of the things that are said and done today are watered

down to try on one size to fit all everyone. A friend to everyone is a friend to no one. You‟ve got to be

clear about what you believe and what you don‟t believe. It‟s okay to be different we don‟t have to be

exactly the same anyways. It would be a boring place if we did, if we were, right?




Mark: Yeah. Going back to that point two about tax advisers and pushing the envelope, I really think it

has to be with somebody‟s level of education and experience, how comfortable they are which relates

to taking a stand. Right?

Travis: Right.

Mark: If you really have this down path you can take an aggressive position which can tell them your

services as long as it is supported in the code. As long as you have the documentation substantiation,

there‟s nothing more with that, there‟s nothing to fear. Being aggressive with your business deductions

and those types of things as long as again you can support it. That‟s our obligation is to pay as little

taxes legally possible so that‟s what we need to do. Pay no more than we have to, right?

Travis: Yeah.

Mark: That works in building businesses and investing.

Travis: yeah, I agree with you. That‟s a great way of saying it Mark, so many people felt like they are

getting away which they are not supposed to. Well, it‟s your right to stand up and take the deductions

that you should as long as it is all based on empirical proof rather than your opinion then there‟s no

problem, right?

Mark: yeah, absolutely. I think that the people at the service are generally good people and they are no

different than anybody else people working in the large bureaucracy. Whatever we can do to assist

them by filing accurate and timely returns, right? Being able to substantiate and uphold some

shenanigan youthful thing in good favour. I have no problem I talked to people at the IRS all the time to

represent a client and I never had any problem.

Travis: Right.

Mark: To me it‟s like a perceptual thing people that are doing that they shouldn‟t be doing and they

deserve to get caught and they‟re going to pay penalty for that. Everybody else is doing the right thing

we have nothing to worry about.

Sandra: Sounds like we are building a foundation have this structure place with a stronger foundation

for our business at all. It pictures the moat and the castle and then it ultimately protect us and what we

have created so thank you Mark.

Mark: Thank you, it has been great. I got so excited.

Travis: Yeah, excellent, excellent information, I knew. I told you when you are incredible you under

value yourself to with all the incredible things that you know. I am telling you I‟ve got my ear on the




ground on the people in business in need someone like to help them. I really, really appreciate you

taking the time and spending it with us. I want to remind you guys, I want you to go to DIYOB instead of

typing out diamonds in your own backyard you can just type in DIYOB.com. And then I will opt in and

send you the 2013 Business owner‟s Guide. It‟s From Frustration to 70 Million dollars, a behind the

things look. What you need to know to grow your business to incredible level of success over the next

18 months. Even 70 million dollar businesses started out as a little bitty bitty business. Also you will be

given access to our private rolodex which is basically the people resources; I mean the tools or services

that we used. We‟ll have this up in a couple of weeks. Everything we do is dedicated to giving you the

shortest path to the next level of success in your business. This is the way that you can connect with

people that we already know I can trust. Am I leaving anything out here Sandra?

Sandra: Just that we are here for your success, we‟re community, email us, be active in our Facebook

community and we are here for you. Ask questions and we‟ll do our best to help you succeed. Thank

you for your time, thank you Mark, thank you Travis for being such an extraordinary host in asking

some great questions.

Travis: Thank you.

Sandra: Awesome.

Mark: Thanks for having me and thanks everybody that listening to this. It‟s a great experience for me I

really appreciate Sandra and Travis for having me on the show.

End of Interview

Travis: Yeah, you bet. Mark, I think we could do an entire another hour. We‟re going to have to set

aside some time further down the line and we‟re going to go deeper in another direction, helping people

discover other important aspects of the business. I want to wrap the show up today reminding you that

you change your strategy, you change your business and you will change your life. I am going to

explain that, you take the strategy that worth teaching you in each and every episode and apply them to

your business. I guarantee you I‟ve done that in my own business you change your business. Once you

change your business I guarantee you it will change your life. Until next time, this is Travis signing off.

Have a great day.

Sandra: Have a great day.




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Radio Host of The Entrepreneurs Radio Show

“Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs That Grow Your Business"

http://www.rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com/biz-accelerator

http://theentrepreneursradioshow.com/

The Entrepreneurs Radio Show_ 023 _Mark del Guercio

Small Business & Entrepreneurship

Transcript of The Entrepreneurs Radio Show_ 023 _Mark del Guercio