The attached transcript of the January 3, 1985 public aeetlng atthe Koppers Texarkana s i te has been completed with due care.However , due to the poor qual i ty of the or ig ina l recording, thistranscript may not accurately ref lect the ent i re proceedings.

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United Siaia*£rtv*fortAgencyReg«yi 6Office of Public Awareness (SAP)First International Suildino1201 8m StreetOallafl. TX 7S270

***OfciaT*IM

PA Environmental News MARY ELLEN GUAY(214) 767-2630

FOR IffflEDIATE RELEASE DECEMBER 21, 1984

Offic ials of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Centers forDisease Control will meet January 3 In Texarkana, Texas, with Interestedpersons and residents who live 1n the area of the Koppers hazardous wastesite to report soil and water sampling results and future actions to betaken at the s ite* The public meeting will begin at 6:30 p.m. at the Mt.21on Missionary Baptist Church, 221 Ti l l son Street.

The 62-aere site* a former wood-preserving plant operated by Koppers Co.,Inc. , is located on West Third Street 1n Texarkana. From 1909 to 1962 ,wood-treating facil ities operated on the site.The area is now owned by the Mt. Zion Missionary Baptist Church andapproximately 80 property owners in the Carver Terrace subdivis ion.Bruce Kennedy Sand and Gravel Company, which mined gravel there untilthis fal l , owns the southern portion of the site.EPA will begin a comprehensive study under the Comprehensive EnvironmentalResponse, Compensation and Liabi l ity Act (CERCLA, or "Superfund") in thespring of 1985 that is expected to take about 18 months to complete. EPAtook soil and water samples in the area to determine the need for securitymeasures. As a precautionary measure, the southernoortlon of the site willbe fenced and warning signs will be posted to y^WTO^j^.Results ofsamples taken In the residential areas do noVwiSiwtWjffllJt;for restrictedaccess In those areas.

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Koppers Company, Inc. Hazardous Waste SiteFact Sheet

S'te Location5 Generally the site is located in t*e vicinity of West 3rd and MilanStreets , Tex * rMna, TexasI11 e J iL^ t°.n.s Approx imate ly «?-acre former wood preserv ing faci l i ty.c Southern half of site supported a sand and gravel quarry.- Northern half of s * t e was rlevelope^ Into a residential subd iv i s ion .- The subd iv i s ion is made up of 7ft houses , ft vacant lots and a large

undeveloped area .The contaminants found on the southern ha l f of the s i te include creosot0

waste s , pentacnloropheno! and sone ratals.

treat ing operat ions hequn hy National L.tmher and Creosot ing ,

- Operations on site change ownership, Koppers 1 predecessor purchasedfac i l i ty , fac i l i ty ' s nane later changed to Koppers Co . . Inc.

- Koppers closes down faci l ity.Between ]Q*? - 1 < >79

- Koppers se l l s property.- Property development cont inues .- North ha lf developed into Carver Terrace Subdiv i s ion- Southern half developed into sand and gra»et quarry,

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Texas nepartment of Water Resources (TDWR) conducts site invest igat ion.Sample col lected by TOWR in sand and gravel area ident if ied mater ia l sassociated with the wood preserving process used bv the Koppers Company.

- Investigation conducted by TfWR.. Pre l im inary assessment inves t igat ion conducted by the F i e l d Invest igat ionTeam of the Environmental Protection Agency (ERA) .

1983-1984- TDWR worked with the Koppers Company toward a p lan to determine the extentof the problem at the site.

September 1983- Koppers Company conducts hydrogeologic Investigation.

Apr i l - Koppers s ite invest igat ion isApri l

- TDWR refers s i te to EPA as p^opose^ s i te ?or l i s t i ng on the Nat iona lPr ior i t i e s L i s t ( NPL ) .

Apr i l 1994 to S- Site is ranked and submitted as proposed s ite for the NPL.

September 1QW- EPA conducted a s ite survey to assess need for s tab i l i zat ion act ion.

forOctober

- Site is l i s ted on 2nd update to the NPL , nak i nq ifederal funding for further inves t igat ion .

October 10, i<jft4- EPA collected samples from the res ident ia l area and the sand and

gravel area.October \ * * ,

EPA conducts onsite in terv iews . Meet ing ",s held at the Ht. ZionMissionary Baptist Church.

November 19R4 to December- FPA reviewed and evaluated data obtained from samples collected on

October IW.- Heternined need for better s it? security and post ing of warn ing si

January 3,- EPA conducts publ ic meeting at Mt. Zion Mis s ionary Bapt i s t Church toadvise cit izens on removal action and future Superfuni.* remedial ac t ions ,

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Innediate Actions to bs takenInsta l l the fence around the southern ha lf of th*1 s ite and post warn i ngS igns . The s i te is not ful ly secured. Site access is readily ava i l ab l eand there is evidence of people using the s i te as a passageway betweenCarver Terrace and Jameson St. Due to the proximity of the residentialarea there is a potential for direct contact by people who would in-advertantly cross over the contaminated areas .

Future ActionsThe site wil l be cleaned up according to EPA policy. The cleanup (RemedialResponse) is divided into several major steps. These major steps are:- The Fie ld Investigation (Remedial Invest igat ion)- Review of Cleanup options (Feas ib i l i ty Study)- Selection of Remedy (Record of Dec i s ion)- Cleanup (Remedial Action)EPA 1s currently working to develop a set of Instructions for conducting theRemedial Invest igation. crF-

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For further information contact:U .S . Environmental Protection Agency1201 Elm Street, Interfirst Two Bldg.Da l l a s , Texas 75270Ms* Betty Wi l l i amson214/767-2605

orMr, Charles Gazda214/767-2720

OPENING REMARKS - Cfcacles Gazda, BRB Chief• - - - ' • ' < • " " 3 - : :First I'd like to thank you for taking the time to meet with usand I do hope that we can bring some information to yourattention which will help ease your mind relat ive to thesituation that exist here. If you have not registered on thecards in the back I would appreciate you did that, I think weprobably have the names and addresses of most of you herealready, but just in case we haven't, it would be nice of you todo that so we can be sure to put you on our mailing list*I do have a few people here that I would like to recogn izetonight. One is Mr. Crider who is the city manager of Texarkana,Mr. Cr ider , thank you. Reverend McCurry , appreciate you forcoming. Mr. Robertson who is here represent ing the Texas BlackChamber of Commerce.The purpose of our meeting here tonight is to discuss what theEnvironmental Protect ion Agency will be doing at the KoppersSite*The procedure that I would like to follow is to briefly explainwhat this program is. Each of the people you see up here I willintroduce in just a minute, will also make a brief presentationrelat ive to the specific areas that they are involved with theKoppers Site. I would ask that you hold any questions until wemake our presentation. I think that during these presentations alot of your quest ions and concerns might already be covered . Iwould like to keep this meeting confined to just the discussionon the Koppers Site, so that we can be sure to cover all areasand that everyone's questions and concerns are covered.There are really two areas to the so-called Superfund Programthat the E.P.A. administers. One is the so-cal led RemovalProgram, which covers a wido range of activit ies includingremoving drums, tanks, emptying pits, as well as putting up afence.The other part of the Superfund Program is what Mr. Cochran willtalk about later is the so-called Remedial Program, or the longterm program, the removal program is the short term program totake care of any problems that might be causing an immediatethreat, relative to a leaking pit or some drums on the site thatsome one may come in contact with that they need to remove beforeanybody is harmed by it. The remedial program then takes overand studies the long term effects and how a site can be cleanedup in its entirety and it takes a good bit more time.Briefly, to give you some idea of how our program works in ourregional office in Dal las Texas, when we look at a site such asKoppers. Any site which makes the so-called National PrioritiesList is brought to our attention, we will send someone out tolook at the site, investigate it, possibly collect samples andcome back to make some determination if in fact we need to dosomething fairly quickly at that site. In some cases it might

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be the next day, in some cases maybe a couple of months down theroad, in any case if something has to be done fairly quickly toprotect any one that might be living in the area or may wander onthe site unknowingly that this is a hazardous waste site, or anythreats to the environment that may include the streams orsomething like that.We then go to our Regional Administrator who has the authority .ospend the money to do the work, when he gives tu- that approval,we then go to our enforcement people and our attorneys to contactthe responsible party to give them the opportunity to do thework. They then have the option of doing the work that we hadintended, then we will simply monitor their work and not spendany federal money on that.If they choose not to do that or we cannot find a responsibleparty, then we will use federal oney to do the work, if welater find someone who wa feel is tne responsible party or eitherhad some association with that site then we can take some legalactions to try to recover our money back and put back in thefund. In this case the Kopper's people have agreed to do thework, the so-called removal work that we're going to do as far asfencing around the south part of the site. So we will be workingclosely with them in that effort.To expand on that more as to why we are doing that, the data thatwe have found both in the gravel pit area and residential area Iwant to introduce at this point Mr. David Lopez.Mr. David Lopezs(presents maps and film to the public to explain status)What I'd like to do is to first of all give you some backgroundon how we became involved. Like Mr. Gazda pointed out, itrequired sometime before we actually got out here but just togive you an idea of what has been happening since EPA first foundout about this situation, there was a survey made in late 1979,tarly 1980 to try to identify all potential hazardous wastesites, at that time the Koppers facility of this particular sitewas brought to our attention. At that time a preliminary assess-ment of this particular site was scheduled and directed in 1981.That was the first visit. Between that time and 1984, the EPAand Texas Department of water Resources worked together with theDepartment of water Resources conducting the investigation andtaking immediate action with the responsible parties that wereidentified at the time. In April of 1984, last year, the^WM^^P^^^ i ^^ f Jff *"•" •ItB'Ir"pTOp^e<!rmte for the National PrioritiesList. Between April and September of 1984, BPA and the Stateworked on the ranking package that is required before a site issubmitted to the NPL. The site was submitted in September and by

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early October it was placed on the NPL through the secondupdate* It was also at that time that I with the emergencyresponse branch, made two visits to this particular site.One was in September to make a what is called a site reconnais-sance to to try and figure out what we might need to do under ourscope of responsibility for the removal program, as Mr* Gazdaexplained, if anything* It was decided at that time that weneeded to get more information* So in October, myself and a teamfrom our group came over here, we collected some samples from theSand Grave l operation as well as from your residential areahere* Between the time that the samples were collected and lateNovember the results of the analysis were received we evaluatedthat data and made recommendations to our regional administratorthen the f irst week in December was when we met with our regionaladministrator. Based on the data we had, he authorized us to usefederal funds, and if need be r to provide for site security aswell as warning signs as appropriate* That pretty much brings usto this point* The purpose of this meeting is also to inform youand let you know whats going to happen so that you will not besurprised.The EPA and Koppers will be work ing at the site very soon, likein the next week , construct ing a fence and putting up somewarning signs. That briefly gives you the background of howwe've been involved in this thing and br ings it at pretty muchthis point.The slides that I have will show you the area where the sampleswere collected as well as where the fence will be placed.Shows slidesThe analysis of the samples will include chemicals that areassociated sometimes with the chemical creosote type, waste ormaterials, They also will include analytical work for Dioxins.Mr. Gazda introduces Mr. George Buynoski, Center for DiseaseControl.Mr. Buynoski;Good evening everyone* Prior to getting to our purpose for beinghere which is to hear your concerns and any questions you mightspecifically have. 1 would like to make a few brief comments toexplain CDCs role in Superfund. Perhaps all of you are awarethat the various health responsibil it ies under the Superfundprogram belong to the Department of Health and Human Services andit's component agencies, Tha lead agency within Health & HumanServices is the Centers for Disaase Control or CDC* I work forthat agency, specifically for the Center of Environmental Health.

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We have two major responsibil it ies under the law, one is toprovide advice and assistance to the EPA, to the State and LocalHealth and environmental agencies on any issues that involveenvironmental public health problems. The second area we work inis to expand and enlarge the field of knowledge in the area ofhuman health effects resulting from exposure to toxic orhazardous substance. In that context, our work at Koppers todate has been to review and analyze the sampling material thatHr. Lopez talked about. We have analyzed this material and triedto determine two things/ one if any acute or immediate healththreat exist in the areas surrounding the site, with specificreference to obviously the subdivis ion and secondly to look atthis with a more long term or chronic exposure outlook. We haveanalyzed this or the sample results as I've said and our positionright now based on what evidence is available, is that there isno immediate threat to anyone within the Carver subdivision* 1'helevels that are shown in the respect ive samples taken in thatarea do not show signif icant contamination. Now quest ions oflong term chronic problems and so forth, I'm sure will come up.Again the evidence that we have today would not suggest anychronic problems, but I would on potential chronic problemswithhold any further discussion, because Mr, John Cochren isgoing to discuss the long term out look. There is much moreinvestigations and sampling that will occur, and quite obviouslythe more information and data that we do have available, thebetter we will be able to make some kind of judgment.These are the only opening comments I wanted to make, and if youhave any specific questions, I will try to answer them as theycome up.Thank You.Mr. Gazda Introduces Mr. John Cochren, Superfund RemedialProgram*Mr. Cochren:It's the goal of the Remedial Program to provide a permanentsolution in the problem we have here. The solution requires somefairly extensive sampling, and other detail reports to bewritten. One of the results of this fact is that it will takequite a while, I1!! give you an idea of the time scale(inaudible) a little bit later. Let me give you an overview ofths remedial program and then I'll go back with a little moredetail in various steps. We can break the remedial program downinto a number of steps. The first step would be to go out in thefield and take samples, we refer to this as the remedialinvestigation, there will be various soil borings, surface watersamples, and ground water samples collected. After those sampleshave been collected and run through a laboratory a report will be

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written. That report will be part of the remedial investigation*After that the next step will be the Feasibi l ity Study, in theFeasibility Study, we take a look at the various solutions to theproblem that we find here* Would it be best to dig it up andhaul it away, can we treat it place, can we leave it therewithout doing anything to it without it causing any harm to us?After those two phases have been conducted, the immediateinvestigation and feasibility studies; the proper solution willbe chosen. The agency refers to this as the Record of Decis ion*To take a look at all the alternat ives, to take a look at all theproblems, and we choose the best alternat ive to solve anyproblems we find here. After that with that particular solution,maybe it will be a wall to keep the ground water in, or somethinglike that, will be designed and finally the construction of theproject whatever it might be.We will come back on a little more detail on each of those steps.Prior to the beginning of the investigation we need a work plan,it is a detailed set of instruct ions, where to sample, what tosample for, how many samples to take, etc. This is referred toas the Remedial Investigation and Feasibility Study work plan.That is currently being developed. We've subcontracted a majorconsultant in Dallas, actually its a National Consulting firm,Camp Dressor & McKee, who is putting that together for the EPA,Once that plan is put together we will work with the potentialresponsible parties to see if they are interested in conductingthe investigation, if they are interested in conducting theinvestigation, we will negotiate with them, and if they areagreeable, then the EPA with responsible parties will bind them-selves to the work plan with a legal document. This is anadministrative order (inaudible).If the potential responsible parties agree to conduct the work,well then they will begin sometime I assume late spring or earlysummer with field work, if they are unwilling to conduct theinvestigation, then the EPA will fund the investigation. Thesame investigation will be conducted in any case. What we willdo is there will be various soil borings, monitoring wells,sampling surface and ground waters , and maybe some airmonitor ing. When all the data has been gathered, it will go tothe lab facilities, which takes quite a while* When CommercialLabs run one sample through full scan, it might charge from 800to 1000 dollars* Sometimes it takes literally months turnaroundtime, between when the samples leaves here and when the datacomes back. Once the field work and laboratory work is done, areport will be written. After that report is written there is afeasibility study, we will take a look at what we have found andvarious alternatives and review them. How well does digging outand hauling away, or will that solve the problem? How well doesjust leaving it there solve the problem? If the concentration isquite low, tnen just leaving it there might be enough. So the

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feasibility study has been scheduled, all the various alterna-tives against certain criteria, for example cost, environmentalconcern, engineering feasibility, after those two documents arecompleted the remedial investigation and feasibility study, thosereports will be placed here in a city depository and you can takea look at them. There will also be a public comment period atthat point where you can rev iew the documents and provide anywritten comments, which the EPA will follow up on*So after the remedial investigation feasibility study, then we gointo the record of decision, and that is KPAs choice c-f the bestsolution to the problem or problems that are found at the site.This will be a formal document, A legally enforceable documentwe hope, stating our findings and what needs to be done at thesite. After that, we will again approach the potential respon-sible parties, and ask them if they would like to implement theirown. If they are interested we will negotiate with them. Ifthey agree to implement that remedy, with the EPA guidance, thenthey have the opportunity to design the remedy, and then actuallyconstruct it. If potential responsible parties aren't willingthen the EPA will design the remedy and they will contract theoption of instruction to whoever it might be. That's essential-ly all I have to present. One thing I would like to point out isthat it is going to be a very detai led study. And detailedstudies take time. So we're not looking at the final answer towhat 's here and what's not here, probably not for a year and ahalf or another two years. The work will be ongoing at alltimes, just like the work is on going at Camp Dresser & McKee,putting together the work plan.

Mr. Gazda opensments.Rev. Leon Noiel;

meeting to the public for quest ions and corn-

One main concern that I have is of course , is it endangering myhealth? The other question I have is according to the slides,you are saying that you're fencing up the gravel pit because itdoes contain hazardous materials and that it is dangerous, andit's very close to the residential area, then why is it notdangerous to our health if we're so close to it? Actually whenit rains, the water backs up into the residential area and some-times it drifts all over the residential area. It's the samewater that's in that area that is being fenced up, I don't seehow it does not pose a threat to us, and I am very much concernedabout that.Mr. Buynoski:Let me answer your question in this way. Why is this site hazar-

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dous, why is it making the NPL and so forth? I told you that wedid not feel that there was any immediate threat to any oneliving in the Carter Subdivision. That is because for you asindividuals to be threatened by the chemicals on this site, acouple of things have to occur. One of them is, are there toxicor hazardous materials present? We do have some sampling thatLope2 discussed that indicate yes there are hazardous chemicalson this site. The second factor we look into is, is there apopulation,are there people located in the area that can beexposed? Everyone in this room would probably raise their thirdhand and say "Yes, I live here, I must be exposed**The third factor which is just as important as the others iscalled Pathways. Pathways are the air you breath, the food youeat, what you touch, the water you drink. As we look at thissite right now, and like I said there is going to be far morestudies on this site, we have to look at the immediate threat.In the neighborhood in which you live, from the sampling we have,we bel ieve no one is being exposed to chemicals that would beimmediately hazardous to your health. I am not claiming that thesampling covers every possible alternative but what we know todaysuggests that the levels of contamination that have been found inthe residential areas of the Carter subdivision are not signifi-cant in terms of exposure. As David Lopez pointed out, the loca-tions that were used for sampling were those areas that would bemore likely contaminated or would more likely show contamination,for the levels found we have to say from a health point of viewthey are not significant. Why fence the site then, because thereis also sample evidence that indicates there are higher levels ofcontaminations in that particular area. That is the purpose forrestr ict ing access. What are we concerned about? Not so muchthe runoff, but the fact that direct contact might occur. Thatis not to suggest that anyone who goes out there is going toimmediately become sick and die*We have to approach this way, there is a lot we don't knowabout chemicals, we have to take a very cautious and very conser-vative approach on this, that is why, speaking for the HealthAuthorities again, we would concur that it makes perfectly goodsense to post and restr ict that area, let's keep people out ofthere. Let me add a personal note, no matter what kind of fencerestriction signs are put around that site* I have kids like youhave and you've got to help us on this, because if someone wantsto get in there they will. As a precaution it is advisable tostay off that property. Does that answer your question?Rev. keen NoieiI suppose so, you know more about it then me,Mr. Buynoski continues:

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The other point again is that as far as we understand, you are ona city water supply, we did not feel that there was a concernwith the water you're drinking, there is no evidence of air( invasions/inhalations) at this point, the other point is thatsometimes what you smell is not necessarily hazardous. There area couple of other factors here . It may be that you smel lsomething, however exposure involves other aspects such as howfrequently does the air exposure occur, how long have you beenexposed, as well as every chemical has different property interms of how dangerous it is.Ks. Gllce Abney: t \jThe f irst meeting I attended here , I was told that that/thequestion I had would be answered in this meeting. So far P^havenot received the answer to these questions. But before I/get tothose, I understand what your saying about us being off citywater, however I been here since 1 9 6 7 , and I know that thatcontamination is not helping our water any. 1) How serious isthe prob lem? 2) What precautions should we take until we getthe right answers (results). 3) Is it possible to get a copy ofthe sampling results? Why can't we have copies of the samplingresults you've taken so far? Can we expect to have at any timethis problem solved?Why couldn't this investigation been done when Mr. Wiseman (?)began to sell these homes to us? Was it because wasn't no whitepeople here. Why? I have a document that I should have broughtwith me, that evidently you don't have. I don't believe that thatwater is not contaminated. If you come to my home on 325 MilamDrive, take that little tap off my faucet, and you'll see what Isee. No ones greens grow over here. Why? This long term feasi-bility plan is not going to work for us, we'l l be dead before youfind out what's out there. I'm seated. I do want you take asample of my water , because I know it's contaminated, and I'mupset.Mr. Gazda;I do appreciate your tolerance and concerns , I can understandthat, I think Mr. Cochren can shed some light as to why thesethings do take so long, I know that's unfortunate, but these arevery difficult complex problems that we have to address. If v/ecould clean it up tomorrow, we would be more than happy to do so,Its just a very difficult situation, as are all the sites thatwe're working on, not only in Texarkana but all over our 5-stateregion. Many will cost millions of dollars to solve. Each onewill probably take several years to resolve* Again I know thatis unfortunate, but then there's only so many people and money togo around that we can just try to do the best we can. We aretrying to work on the so-called worst sites first.

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It does take a lot of study, in some cases it may not have turnedout to be as bad as we thought, but we will not know that untilample samples have been taken, I realize that your concernedabout what is happening to you in the meantime, but as Mr.Buynoski explained the data that we have in the residential areaehows no cause for concern on your health and safety* I am nottotally sure about what type of sampling has been done with yourcity water supply, but I feel confident that it is safe water todrink. Relative to the gravel pit area, again as George pointedout, it is not so much that the materials getting off can effectyou it's only if somebody should get on that site and dig in someof that material and get it on them. That is why we feel that byputting a fence around it, we can prevent people that on purposeor unawaringly get into this material and cause damage to theirwell being* That is why we're putting the fence around it, fromthe information we gathered we feel that that is the best thatcan be done until we can get additional data.Ms. Ellee Abney;What your saying is good, however we still don't have a copy ofthe results, and 1 still haven't heard the answer to why thisinvestigation did not take place before this community started.Mr. Gazda:If we knew about it at that time, our invest igation would havetaken place then, to my knowledge no one was aware that this areaposed a possible treat.Citizen:One problem that I've had is growing vegetation. My wife hasplanted a couple of trees but they just will not grow. Before Iknew what was going on I tried to raise a garden, but it wouldnot grow. The back yard has grass, but the front yard will notgrow grass* The trees we planted just died, I honestly feel thatthe front is contaminated.Mr. Buynoski:One of the questions asked, right before yours sir, was howserious is the problem. There are again, two ways of looking at asite, two things we are concerned about from a health viewpoint. Is there any actual exposure occurring? The only way wecan document that is to have evidence that there is directexposure or that there is ingestion or inhalation of contaminatedmaterials. We do not have evidence that that is occurring atthis point. Why is the site serious, because the public healthapproach on this again, is a preventative one, and the objectiveis to deal with the potential for exposure, yes there are

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dangerous materials here, and we now know that for a fact, whilesomething may not be happening at this moment, while somethingmay not have happened for several years, there is that potential.As health people we can't afford to take that risk, so this siteis important and the health concerns are important just becauseof those potentials* Let me be very honest wit i you, about oneof the things you brought up earlier; what about five years ago,ten years ago, our children and so forth. One of the mostdifficult areas in environmental health, particularly dealingwith exposure to chemicals is that we've had chemicals for yearsand years. We use,d them, and we use all kinds of products madeof chemicals in our homes. But what we do not have is the totalamount of information and knowledge that we would like to havethat tells us what the effects of certain exposures happens tobe. Just think how many people in this room for years and yearssmoked and smoked and really did not know that there was anassoc iat ion between smok ing and hea l th , but now we knowdifferently. Its the same thing here. One of the problems wehave is that we can not document exposure, I can't say that anexposure occurred or that one did not. One of the short comingsthat we have is that we do not have the technology today, in mostcases, to test people and tell us that yes they were exposed tenyears ago, or that the illness, or cancer they have was caused bya specific exposure during early childhood. We have goodevidence in certain areas , and much of our evidence comes fromoccupational exposure. Much of the information we use inmeetings like this to relate to sites conies from the occupationalsetting where we have a controlled group of people to work with,such as the workers in the ship yard working with asbestos. Sonow we have a total overa l l concern for anyone work ing withasbestos, or for schools, public buildings, etc. containingasbestos . We do not have a lot of information, it's coming inbut X cannot answer questions on past exposure.Mr. CochrensBefore the investigation the EPA will oversee a permanentsolution to any problems here. What that will require is a verydetail study. The detail study will in turn will take a verylong time. A very simple story might be of a man that went to adoctor and said "Oh, I have this pain in my side, will you fixit?" Doctor says, "I can't tell right now, we'll have to send youto the hospital, run some tests. X-rays, and blood analysis** Hesays W0h but it hurts, I want to know right now!" Doctor says, "Ican't have to send you for more test and more data."We have the same situation here, we took a preliminary analysisand things look very good, there are some higher levels here, butin your area things look very good. There is no way we can giveyou an analysis and a permanent solution until we conduct a very

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detailed investigation. That detailed investigation will includebringing dril l ing rigs out here, it will include specialist ofvarious types, each of those specialist/ each of those activitiestakes time to mobilize, takes time to work, and remember there'sa long turn around in the lab, How we'cu talking about one ortwo months just for the lab analysis. The experts in var iousfields will go over the data and put together the reports andevaluations. Var ious a l ternat ives against what we find here,then and only then can we tell you what it will take to fix theproblems. And the EPA or the potential responsible party willfix those problems. There is no short cut. To give you an ideaof what we're talking about, remedial investigation feasibilitystudy, that is the field work , sampling of var ious types, andthen the report which takes a look at the solutions and how wellthe solutions solve the problems. You can well anticipate somewhere around 400 or 500 thousand dol lars to do just those twoaspects of the study* We ' r e not ignoring you at all* Thingsare running on schedule right now, var ious consultants and EPAare working on a work plan, a detailed set of instructions isbeing worked up.CitizensSow much input would the community have? Would the communityhave any input? I'm concerned. I would like to see the backlots of each of these homes being sampled, which are facing theside of the church. I think there might be a problem wherethere is top soil, when it rains, there is just oil everywhere.Mr. Cochren:What I will do in selecting the areas for sampl ing is two things,one is that we will take a look at the old aerial photography,there is photography taken of the plant in the 30s , 40 s , 50 s ,60s , With this photography it is general ly very easy to pick outthe most contaminated areas. Where was the plant, where was thepressure vessels, were there any lagoons, waste ditches? We willcertainly target that.For instance? we already know that it appears that the old lagoonwas just west of the church.. That area is targeted with variousmonitoring wells and possibly somo trenches to take a look atwhat is in there.The other thing we'll look at in placing monitoring wells andselecting water and soil samples is to try to develop a represen-tative picture of the site and zero in on the bad areas and tryand fill in the other areas with just some representative sam-ples. I'll be working with Gamp Dr@ s sor & McKee, who is a con-tractor in Dallas to try to develop a work plan. But I canassure you that this area just west of the church will be tar-

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geted for a lot of investigation and there will be various sam-ples taken in the residential ar«a.I spoke with Sam wiseman, and Char l e s Markham, engineer for thesubdivision whan it was originally put in, and both indicated tome that there waa very little or no fill brought in to theresidential area and they had a little trouble with the founda-t ions. But basically it was the soil that was here , when theplant was closed. And both of them indicated to me that thissite grows grass and trees quite well.Mr. BuynoskijI want to make a comment on the sampling program, I've been toquite a few meetings like the one we're having tonight and quitehonestly one of the major purposes of a meeting is for input fromthe people that live in the area . Sometimes yes, evidence doescome from someone sitting out there in the audience about aparticular condition in their back yard or that they're aware ofindicating perhaps the location of contamination. We ask, ashealth people who are respons ib le for the human health side ofthis, to involve ourse lves in whatever sampling strategy, orwhatever planning goes into laying out where ever samples arebe ing taken , The rea son for this of cour s e i s that we ' r eultimately asked what the health risk is. We have to have inputinto where samples are taken and those samples from our viewpoint are obviously slanted towards sampling that indicatewhether people are being exposed or not, whether there ' s anyhazards where people are living. So your concerns are well takenand are in fact very much part of this process.Citizens1 want to ask a question, I been living here for forty somethingyears . Oh, I know that there 's been contamination since thebeginning* I want to know where ' s the main cyl inders, if therewas contamination back then then, why isn't it here now? I knowone of those cylinders use to set back over there by thosehouses, but yet you say that there's no danger there now. ButMr. Kinsey says, he's my friend, what I'm saying is how could itbe dangerous over there (gravel pit), and not here where the maincylinder was? Now that don't make no kind of sense. And Ihaven't heard anything tonight that has made much sense about thewhole situation. You'l l said what you going to do but, you'vebeen saying that all the while, but t thought you had alreadymade some decisions. When are you going to make them? After weall funerali-ised? If the Hoppers had anything to do with it, theyshould be sued. If the city had any thing to do with it, theyshould have checked before building these homes* Someone isresponsible, and when you take these samples out and look atthem/ what do we know about all that? I have a boy who's an

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expert in chemistry, but X don't know a bit of it, So It won'tdo any good to bring him out here. I don't think your doing thecommunity any good at all*Now you can't tell me that if there was contamination, and thecylinder set right over hare that it's still not in the ground.Mr.If I may address at that tonight, and I, X , I , hope that you canunderstand why we collected samples* Now understand that thesesamples were collected last October are preliminary, we werelooking for surface type contamination, of the worst case that wecould come up with and I'll be frank with you we biased oursamples to try and locate the worst contamination we could see*Now the other thing is, the samples we collected last Octoberwere primari ly for one purpose and one purpose only. And thatwas to identify what we would consider an immediate type situa-tion, now I would tend to agree with you that if the cylinder wasout there and there's any type of leakage from it, it's probablyatill under the ground.Citizen:Well then why aren't you doing anything about it?Mr* Lopez:Okay w-jat we were looking at was an immediate type situation, ofdirect contact, can you come in contact with the stuff by walkingover it?Citizen:You can !t come in contact with you living on it<Mr. Lope2sOur position was if you can't come into contact by walking on theground, or come into contact by normal type ci rcunistarces. Notgoing in theve and say digging a 23 foot wel l , rfe looking at thesituation from a surface or direct contact type of situation andagain I must stress our sampling was for a preliminary purpose.The investigation is on-going, and that's where John, .and theremedial program will lead, Now we're not saying that contamins~tion is not under the ground, or any place else, What we'resaying that based on the analysis of the samples we have take.nand collected that there does not appear to be an immediate typesituation where a direct type exposure would be encountered*

06-8501*50PAGE 14Mr* BuynoskiiYou said that you'd wondered if you had come into contact with itor not. If there wore pentachlorophenol for example on theground and you walked over it, yes in a real sense you've comeinto contact with it* Your shoes have walked over it. The otherpoints I want to make ia, does it get into your body, does itget into your system, how frequently does it get into your body/or for how long a period of time? I mentioned earlier that froma health view point taking a very conservat ive outlook, yes itdoes make sense to restrict areas on the site that show highercontamination. In reality, would your children be affected, evenif they were playing in it everyday it would not at this pointconstitute a arodus hazard to them, because the levels are nothigh enough to be an acutely hazard* Now I have to allow for twothings, I can only address sampling information I'm aware of, ifthere is some- location out there that I don't know about, that wedon't have any information on, 1 can't answer for that situation.If someone has evidence that such a situation exist, yes I'm surethat these gentlemen would like to know about it, so that we candeal with it,Citizen:Did this contamination get out here into this section?Mr. BuynoskiiI can't answer that, all I can suggest is that what's beenidentified out herefacilitiesCitizen:

seems to be indicative of wood treatment

Don't try to bypass us by saying that its nothing to worry about,because I feei we should know the truth.Mr. Gazda:Sir, I assure that if we felt that it was dangerous to you, wewould not withhold it from you. We were sampling in the areaswhere people were living, playing on the basketball court. Wedid not find levels out there that we felt were a threat to yourhealth. If we had, you would not be here today, we would seethat you were evacuated from the area. This has been donebefore in several places in the county, and we would do it again*We don't have any information that shows a need for that rightnow. We would not ignore that or allow you to stay there and beexposed to that type of hazard if we had any information thatshowed that.

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Citizen:I'm really concerned like everyone one else is, but I live on thetop of where one of those cylinders use to sit and if anybodyknows anything about health it's me, because right now I am beingtreated for one of the conditions that was mentioned in the paperthat this thing can cause. I fve been sick for over two years.I 've been sitting on top of that thing for eighteen years. Youhave a yellow monitoring well, across the street right in frontof my house, and anything north of my house was not black, thatwas untreated posts. The stufi that was treated within thisarea, they treated there and then restored them back here* I'veseen several wells just recently put here, but the one sittingbehind the church has been there forever and a day. So if thoseconditions that you speak of might appear on this parking lot,then you don't have to dig very far down to find a big pit ofcross ties, and old raw creosote. The man, Mr. Sanders withthe LA gas company brought a service in here and found a two andthree inch timbers covering a ditch or a trench and if you go inthere and look, you'll find raw creosote . I might just be oneof many but I 've been living on this stuff for years, and a mantells me that my kidnays have failed, I have every right in theworld to think that I have been contaminated.Citizen:Excuse me I would like to say for Brother Steger, I stay rightdown the street from him, and in my yard it is raw creosote aboutsomething like maybe a foot and a half or two feet deep, and Ihave to continue bringing top soil in, in order to grow any kindof grass , I think that since these people out here had so manydifferent operations going on, over this business work area atthe time they worked here, that each yard should be sampled* Youcan't tell exactly what where all the stuff was anyhow, causeevery time they did something different here and somethingdifferent there. My name is James Calicut. I have been affectedtoo, like Brother Sfceger, with my health, and I believe that iswhere it comes from,Citizen;Do you have any clinics where I can take my kids, or even myselfto test for this creosote exposure? If not, do you think itwould be a good idea to take my kids to my private doctor?Mr. Buynoski:The way we would approach this is that there's two ways oflooking at the possible problem. One of the ways is, what thisgentleman just brought up, do you have evidence within an area ofa residential community, of illness that might be specifically

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related to, exposure to a particular chemical?I am not disputing what thesewith their kidneys, becausewhat caused their condition.even have the technology or the expert ise to make thatcorrelation to say yes, this problem is directly related to thatparticular chemical.

gentlemen said about their problemsI am not in a posit ion to diagnoseIn many cases, I'm not sure that we

The way that we will have to approach this site is to look at itin this way; l, are their toxic chemicals present on this site,are tho „<* chemicals where the population can be exposed? This iscal led a health assessment, it does not include at this point,dealing with clinics, or testing children. What it does dealwith is the question "Does the site actually constitute an actualthreat to people?". For example, if we felt that the water youwere drinking was contaminated, obviously that would be a causefor immediate action.

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Citizen:But what I'm asking is would it hurt to see a doctor, in themeanwhile that you are running all these test, and are gatheringmore information* You know I could be dying of cancer and noteven know it,Mr. Buynoskl;You individually do have that option, however I don't believethat we wil1 be recommending any type of test ing or medicalevaluation at this point in time.CitizensYou said you took samples in some of the residential areas , howdid you obtain those samples?Mr.These were direct surface samples, down to about three inchesinto the ground* Again, the idea was to find out what was onthe surface, and if there was a chance that anyone would comeinto direct contact with it. That's why the samples were takenthe way they were. The same thing was done in the sand gravelarea. No sample was taken deeper than inches into the ground.Citizen:You say that the people aren't coming into contact with it, wellI know for a fact that when the people dig into the ground for

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gardening purposes, they come into contact with it, because theydig deeper than three inches. The top soil is not that deep,I don't see why your spending 5 0 , 0 0 0 dollars on a fence, I thinksomeone is playing with tederal money. Why can't this money beused to put some of us like myself, that is been sitting on thatcylinder for years, in the hospital, to find out if indeed it wasthe exposure that caused our illnesses?Citizen:I have been living here for sixteen years and I could never getgrass to grow there, until recently I went and got some chickenmanure and finally got me sone grass. Now I have a hole that'ssinking in my yard, every year I've filled it up, but every yearit keeps on sinking, now its a 2 x 4 foot hole in my yard. It'sgoing to swal low my dr iveway. Thethey don't seem to have any answers.Mr. Buynoski:

city hasDo you? been contacted but

As it stands right now, in terms of immediate threat, there is notesting that my agency is going to recommend. Let me just saysomething so that you will not feel that you're at the mercy ofthat bureaucrat who talked to you that night and he's making allthese decisions on your life*I am not a doctor, and I am not trying to determine your medicalproblems. The way we look at this is a committee of people suchas toxicologist, epidemiologist, various experts in var iousfields will continue to evaluate this situation. Will testing ofpeople ever be done, I can not answer. That might become part ofthe scenario if in fact evidence begins to surface that exposurehas occurred or is occurring. Let me also be very truthful.There may not be the types of testing that you think exist toreally answer any of these questions, to document exposure.

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Citizen:We have poor drainage, you said it would be later on that thatwould be fixed when you put in walls and things. Our drainagearea, we're locked in here, our property value has gone down. Weare c i t izens paying for someth ing that should never havehappened.Why was this area zoned as a residential area? I'm sure t :atsomeone knew about this Koppers Facility before these homes «erebuilt. When it rains, we're swamped in* Your answers sound goodon paper, and your maps look good, but that doesn't take away the

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fact that someone owes us some dues. What's the Government goingto do about that?Citizen:I'm the youngest property owner here and I can't even sell thisplace* How do I deal with that? The media hasn't been veryhelpful either, every day you see it in the paper*Other Citizen, cuts insLast year, that gas pipe had a leak* I had to have them replacemy line. Okay, what about my water? If that creosote is underground, if it can corrode my gas pipe, it could be seeping intomy water pipe also. I haven't worked in ten years, because of myhealth. I've been drinking that water for nineteen years.Mr* BuynoskiiA water line is a pressurized system,it means there is pressurein it and if you punch a hole in it, what happens is that itleaks outward, if a water pipe should rupture, you're not likelyto get anything into it. It will be forced out by the pressure.CitizensWhat does it take to get you all to come and get a sampledirectly out my yard? When are we going to hear from you again?Mr. Gazda:As we get additional data from any additional samples we willbe getting together with you again. The remedial people willhave a meeting down the road, as their program goes on.Mr. Cochren:Two types of input, one we will be writ ing you brief ings oninformation, like the Fact Sheet you got tonight. There will beone at the beginning of the field work and there will also be acopy of the work plan I talked about earlier for you to look athere. There will also be another fact sheet at the beginning ofthe remedial investigation, a public meeting at the beginning ofthe feasibility study at which point you will be able to providewritten comments* Those comments will be addressed in the recordof decision, there will also be a briefing at the end of therecord of decision. Finally you have the EPA contact, you willfind various at the bottom of the fact sheet.

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Citizen:What if we want you to sample in a specific area?Mr* CochrenOur sampling program will be set up based on the position ofhistorical aerial evidence of where things were located.Citizen:How did the developers get a permit to build and develop homeswithout EPA finding out about the potential hazard? They had tohave a zone permit, didn't they? Why did they permit them to usethis area as a residential area, knowing that creosote was here?Mr. Cochren:Op until fairly recently creosote was a household product,was not a bad chemical. It

The EPA has only been around since about 1970s. This was builtin the 1960s. There was no way we could become involved.Why the permit? I don't know that. I talked to various peoplewho have had the property along the way. They told me that, nowthis is just what they told me, "When you have an area that iszoned res ident ial , you cannot put an industry on it, however ifyou have an area zoned industr ia l , you can do just about anythingyou want to with it, whether it's putting another industry on itor a couple of houses. I do not know if this is true or false.Again, back then creosote was not considered a hazardous product,Citizen:I just do not think this is fair, someone made a killing of usmiddle class people,,Mr. Cochren;We are looking into past owners and what they did, and so isKoppers. Koppers would like to know why a site that they sold asan industrial site turned out to be a subdivision,Citizen:I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I think someoneowes me some dues. Its just not fair that the city permittedthis to happen, and we ' re paying for someone elaes mistake.

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Someone should be sued for the potential hazard they have put usthrough right now.Mr. Cochren:Don't think the issue is dead, I have gone back and talked tovarious property owners and am still doing so. The way the lawsare written, they have certain potential liabilities, I am notsaying that they are liable, I'm just saying that they havepotential liabilities. That is on-going and there will be moredone with that. Koppers is interested in this also, I know thisfor a fact.Citizen:I feel that everyone on this property should be repaid. I feelthat someone has been playing russian roulette with our lives.Mr. EldrigesIs there someway to keep the media to stop printing about thisand put the fear of God in all of us? The property value hasbeen going down, because of all this bad media*Other Citizen:No sir, I want it printed, I want it on National T.V.Citizen:I don't think we've gotten anything out of this meeting tonight.Give me three things that you honestly think you have gotten outof this meeting.Mr. Cochcen:One, that there's a great deal of public concern. Two, we havepeople here at this meeting that know where things are locatedhere. Three, (inaudible),Citizen:Right in back of our home, is this layer of creosote, which isholding a lot of back water, and it back washes into our yardsand floods that area. Tho debris is washed to the gravel pit andthen back to our yards. We need better drainage in the meantime.For this reason I know my flowerbed is filled with creosote.Mr. Gazda:What you were saying about the paper, we have no control over

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what the press prints in the paper, and when we hold a publicmeeting again, and we will send out a press release, so that theconcerned cit izen's will know about the meeting and attend ifthey would like* But as far as what the press writes, we have nocontrol over that.Ht« Buynoski:I think that one of the real important points about havingmeetings like this, is that your source of information is notalways what you see on T.V. or read in the paper. This way wecan provide information on a more direct basis* My closingcomment to that point is that this is about the 20th publicmeeting that I've attended and you are not alone,heard here has been brought up in every other meeting. What I've

One of the questions raised was "Why didn't someone do somethingabout this?". Its people like yourself in all 50 states, that iswhy we now have the Superfund Program, and why these issues arebeing addressed. My last comment is, "Should people not knowthat I'm living next door to a Superfund site?, this has come upsevera l times. The fact that you have made the Superfund list,even though I know that some of you are not exactly too happyabout it, you can look at it f r om the point of v iew thatsomething is now going to be done about it.There are other areas in this country,! can tell you, whoseneighborhood site or waste pit, has not made the NPL, in thatsense they are a little worse off then you are. What couldult imately happen here, that could be beneficial, there is nomagic solution but obviously if the site is cleaned up, that willgo a long way in restor ing faith in the neighborhood, economicvalues, real estate interest in an area. I know what you'regoing through, if someone asked me if I would let my kids play inyour back yard, based on what I know, I wouldn't stop them.Would I move out of this neighborhood based on what I know, theanswer is no*CitizensHow do you go about cleaning up a site?Mr* Cocfaren:There are a number of possibilities. One, if the levels are low,then the soils are left. Two, put soil or asphalt over it sothat there's no contact with people. Another, most of thecreosote, or other compound, degradate with sunshine, they change*orm and go away. Another solution might be that there iscertain types of bacteria that like to eat creosote. Anothersolution is to dig it up ami haul away to a landfill, specially

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designed. And then come back with clean earth,some of the cleanup alternatives* Some are just

Short of not knowing what's there, I cannot give you a solution*Mr. Buynoski:Let me add to that, if a site is truly a hazard to someoneshealth, then a cleanup will go as far as necessary to eliminatethat problem. An entire area could be resoiled, it has even goneas far as having the people physically moved out of the area, ifit is determined that your health cannot be protected then theultimate solution, is relocation. I am not suggesting that thisis the case, at this point. I just want you to know that ifthere were any rea son to be l i eve that your health was injeopardy, there are steps we would take.Mr* Gazda:Are there any more questions?Citizen's:No.Mr, GazdatThank you, I really appreciate you coming here, I hope that wewere able to bring some light to you. We will obviously stay intouch with you as the program proceeds, and we would 1 ike for youto do likewise. If you have any questions, please do nothesitate to call or write us. There will be additional informa-tion as we go along. As David pointed out, sometime next weekyou should see some fences going up with signs. We do feel thatthat is a good approach based on what we have, and that it willdo some good as far as the children or unaware people.CitizensWhat type of fence is it?

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Hr« Lopez:It is barbed wire, square mesh fence, it willinches high. Warning signs will be placed ataround the perimeter*MEETING ADJOURNED

stand about 48various points