Stan Meyers Secret Preventing Electrolysis (Amended)
Transcript of Stan Meyers Secret Preventing Electrolysis (Amended)
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StanMeyersSecret:PreventingElectrolysis
August16,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
StanMeyersSecret,PreventingElectrolysis.
PreventingElectrolysisallowsvoltagetotakeoverandsplitwaterinapurelyphysicalprocess.
Thewatermoleculeisapolarmolecule.ChemicalpolarityWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaSinceitisapolarmoleculeweknowthatelectricfieldscancauseittomoveorrotate.Thisishowmicrowavesworktoheatfood.MicrowaveovenWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
Electrolysisisachemicalprocessinwhichelectronsflowfromoneplatethroughthewaterandtotheotherplate(s).ElectrolysisofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
InStanMeyer'spatent#4,798,661heexplains:"TheabovedescribedprocessisapparentlynotachemicalreactionprocesssuchasinFaraday'sLaws"
Ifelectronsarepassingthroughthewatertheresultisalwayselectrolysis.Itdoesnotmatterifyoupulsetheplates,addanelectrolyteoruseplaintapordistilledwater.Theresultiseithermoreorlessefficientelectrolysiswhencurrentisflowingthroughthewater.
Hasanyoneherestudiedhowcapacitorscharge,andwhatthechargereallyis?CapacitorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaCapacitorsCharging
Acapacitorchargeswhenelectronsflowfromonecapacitorplate,throughthecircuitandtotheotherplate.Thiscausesoneplatetohaveapositivecharge(lownumberofelectronscomparedtoprotons)andtheothertohaveanegativecharge(highnumberofelectronscomparedtoprotons).Adiodecanbeusedinthecircuitasaonewaycheckvalve,allowingelectronstoonlyflowoneway,allowingthecapacitortochargebutpreventingitfromdischarging.
So,electronstravelfromonecapacitorplatethroughthecircuittotheother,andthatcreatescharge.Whatifthedielectricmaterialbetweentheplateswasconductive.Ifsoelectronswouldflowthroughtheconductivedielectricfromoneplatetotheother.Thiswouldresultinthecapacitorloosingit'scharge.
Iftheelectronflowthroughtheconductivedielectricwasequaltotheelectronflowthroughthecircuit
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thecapacitorwouldnevercharge.Iftheelectronflowthroughthedielectricwassmallcomparedtotheelectronflowthroughthecircuitthecapacitorwouldchargeveryslowlyandneverchargetoit'sfullpotential.Itwouldchargewithmuchlessefficiencyandneverfullycharge.
Didyouknowthatevendistilledwaterisslightlyconductive,andtapwaterevenmoresobecauseofthemineralsandchemicalsinit.ElectricalconductivityWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
Ifyouput2platesinpuredistilledwaterandconnectthemtoapowersourcewhatistheresult?Youwillstillgetasmallcurrentflowthroughthewaterwhichwillcauseasmallamountofgasgeneration.Thisiselectrolysisataverysmallscale,andwithlowefficiency.
Howcanyoumakeacapacitorusingwaterasadielectricsinceevendistilledwaterwillconductenoughcurrenttopreventthecapacitorfromeverfullycharging?
Theanswer:Thetubesneedtobecoatedwithadielectriccoating.Ifyoudojustalittleresearchyouwillfindtherearemanydielectriccoatingswhichwillworkinsuchapplications,andmanyofthemarealsoeitherclearorhavealighttint?
Nowareyouwonderingwhysomanyhavefailedatreplicating?
Thisisonly1partofmanytounderstand,thechargingcircuitisthesecond.
TheChargingCircuit
ThechargingcircuitisaseriesLCcircuit,whichatresonancehassomethingcalledvoltagemagnification.LCcircuitWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaVoltageMagnificationmeansthevoltageismanytimeshigherthanwhatthesupplyvoltageis.TheamountofvoltagemagnificationisdependantonacalculationusingthecircuitsresistanceandreactancestofindtheQ.
Voltagemagnification=VappliedXQ
SoifyourcircuithasaQof10andyourappliedvoltageis100,thevoltageacrossthecircuitcomponentswillbe1,000V.
Theresonanceisbetweenthesecondarycoilandthecapacitor.Theextrainductorsareusedtolimitchargingcurrenttoprotectthecircuitfromshortingoutatresonancesinceimpedanceislowestatresonance.Theinductorsarenotpartoftheresonantcircuit,theyaddaninductivereactancetolimitcurrent.
IfyougoevenfurtheryouwillfindoutthatthechargeofacapacitorisdefinedasQ=CV.CisinFarads,andVisvoltage.
Theatomswhichmakeupthewatermoleculehavealowerdielectricconstantthanwhentheyarepartofthewatermolecule,sowhenwaterspplitsbetween2platestheresultisareducedcapacitance.
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Q=CVtellsusthatiftheQstaysthesamebutthecapacitanceisreducedwhatmustchange?
ThevoltagemustincreaseifQremainsthesame.
Thisphenemenonisknownasparametricresonance,ParametricoscillatorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopediaandcanonlyoccurwhen2requirementsaremet:
1.Thecapacitor'scapacitancemustdecreaseovertime
2.Thefrequencymustbe2Xtheresonantfrequencyofthecircuit.
Weknowthecapacitancewilldecreasewhenthewaterbeginstosplit,butwhataboutthecircuitoperatingat2Xresonance...Well,youseebecauseoftheaddedinductorsthecircuitbecomesafrequencydoubler,itisthatsimplepeople!
Ihavejustexplainedhowelectrolysisispreventedinthecircuitandcapacitorplates,whichallowsthecapacitortochargetoahighvoltagewithgreatefficiency.
IsitthathardtounderstandthatunderthecorrectconditionsasexplainedabovethattheatomswhichmakeupthePOLARwatermoleculecanbeattractedtooppositeelectricfieldsandseperated?
August17,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Youmaywanttotakealookatthisthread:
Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect
Interestingly,normalelectrolyticcapacitorshaveadielectriclayer,whichisformedoutofaluminumoxide.Theinterestingthingaboutadielectriclayeristhatitcanbepolarised,whichgivesyouanelectricfieldaslongasthedielectricispolarised.
Fromthere,onecanalsoexplainwhysuchasystemcanseeminglyproduceenergyoutofnothing.ThisissimplybeingconvertedbythedielectricumasexplainedbyProf.TurturasIpostedhere:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect
August17,2010
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HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
lamareGoodtoseeothersherewhounderstandthis!!!
SloveniaYourwelcome.
Idon'tpostveryoftenanymore,butonceinawhileIfeeltheneedtosharesomethingnewIhavelearned.
HairBearWhatdoyoumeanbybreakingtheconductivepathandmixingatomisedwaterwithambientair?AreyoureferingtoH2opowersposts?
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Thepolarnatureofthewatermoleculewhichfacilitatestheformationofminutedropletsinthemistappearstocausearelationshipbetweenthedropletsizeandthevoltagerequiredtoeffecttheprocess,i.e.,thegreaterthedropletsize,thehigherthevoltagerequired.
Doyouunderstandwhylargerdropletsrequirehighervoltagetosplitthewater?
Itisbecauseofthehydrogenbonding...Ifyouhavealargerdropletyouhavemoremoleculeswhichincreasestheoverallstrengthofthebondssincetherearemore.Tosplitthemrequiresahighervoltage.HydrogenbondWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
Intheinjectorexplainedinthecanadianpatent#2,067,735thewater,ionizedair,andrecirculatedexhuastalltravelthroughtheinjectorthroughtheirownseperatenozzles.Thenozzlecreatesatomisedwatermistataverysmalldropletsizeof"10to250microns".Thenozzlesallenteracoaxialvoltagezonewhichsplitsthewaterdropletsastheytravlethroughit.Andasstatedinthepatenteitherasparkplugofthehighvolatilityofhydrogencausecombustion.Theinjectorsareminiaturewaterfuelcellsandworkinthesamemanner,theyevenuseaDCRESONANTCHARGINGCIRCUITtochargethecapcitoratresonance.
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thepresentinventionisamicrominaturizedwaterfuelcellwhichpermitsthedirectinjectionofwater,andit'ssimultaneoustransformationintoahydrogencontainingfuel...StanMeyerCanadianPatent#2,067,735
IfyouhavestudiedtheTechBriefandpuharic'sinjectorpatentyoumighthavenoticedthatthegroundedelectrodehasaninducedvoltageonit'sinnersurfaceduetoelectrostaticinduction.ElectrostaticinductionWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
Armagdn03Soundslikeyouralsounderstandingthis,AWESOME!
SuchayoThisrequirestheresonantchargingcircuitthatstanmeyershasexplainedallalong.Voltsandcurrentdifferduetomanyfactors...Capacitorsize,transformersecondaryinductance,chokeinductance,resistanceofcircuitandresonance,aswellasvoltagemagnificationandparametricresonancehavetobeconsidered.
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Yesdielectricbreakdowniswhenthedielectricmaterialisdestroyed.Thisisbecausethehighvoltagefieldovercomesthedielectricstrengthofthedielectricandpuncturesthroughit....StanMeyer'sworkdoesnotsplitwaterudingdielectricbreakdown.
Ifyouhavearesonantchargingcircuit,chargingatubesetwithadielectriccoatingandthevoltageovercomesthedielectricstrengthofthecoatingtheresultwillbecurrentflowingthroughthewater.Orinotherwords,electrolysis.
Therequirementisbasic,butrequiresknowledge....Youpreventelectrolysis(currentflowthroughwater)byusinganadditionaldielectriccoatingonthetubes.Andyoupreventthechargingcircuitfromshortingoutatresonancebyaddinginductorstohaveaninductivereactance.
IfyoustudycapacitorsyouwillfindtheDissipationFactorisimportant.Withoutadielectriccoatingthedissipationfactorwillbeveryhigh,meaningyouwillhavecurrentflowthroughthewater,resultingin,onceagain,electrolysis.
DissipationfactorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
August17,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Iforgottoadd,ifyouwanttoseetheworkofsomeonewhoreallyknowswhat'sgoingonhere:
WaterFuelCell(WFC)Researches
Hiscircuitworks,althoughtheproductionislowduetoahighdissipationfactorandlowmaxvoltage(Lessthan2kV).Inthecircuitheisprobablypushingthevoltageashighasitcansafelygosincehe'susingacommonwallplugtransformer.Heevenshowsparametricresonance(stepcharging)onanoscilloscopetofurtherproveit....Itisasimplecircuitandcanbeeasilyreconstructedorreplicated.
JLnaudin'spageiswhereIfirstlearnedofandbegantounderstandthis.
August18,2010
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lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Ifyouhavearesonantchargingcircuit,chargingatubesetwithadielectriccoatingandthevoltageovercomesthedielectricstrengthofthecoatingtheresultwillbecurrentflowingthroughthewater. Orinotherwords,electrolysis.
Therequirementisbasic,butrequiresknowledge....Youpreventelectrolysis(currentflowthroughwater)byusinganadditionaldielectriccoatingonthetubes.Andyoupreventthechargingcircuit fromshortingoutatresonancebyaddinginductorstohaveaninductivereactance.
IfyoustudycapacitorsyouwillfindtheDissipationFactorisimportant.Withoutadielectriccoatingthedissipationfactorwillbeveryhigh,meaningyouwillhavecurrentflowthroughthewater, resultingin,onceagain,electrolysis.
DissipationfactorWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
Themostinterestingtypeofcapacitortostudyinthisregardistheelectrolyticcapacitor(SeeforexamplethelinkspostedhereBedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect)forinformationabouthowtomakethindielectriclayers.
Whatyouarereallysayingwhenyoutalkaboutpreventingelectrolysisisthatyousplitwaterusinganelectricfieldinsteadofanelectriccurrent.Thispatentsuggeststhatthisisinterelypossible:http://sdch2o.free.fr/vrac/GB%202.32...20R.Eccles.pdf
However,inthispatenttheyareusingvoltagesashighas25kV,whichisapparantlynecessaryinordertogetanelectricfieldofsufficientstrengthinbetweentheplates.
Thatbringsmetowhyanelectrolyticcapacitorissointeresting.AsIpostedhereBedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect,inanelectrolyticcapacitorthedistancebetweenthe"plates"isactuallyverysmall,becausethefluidinbetweentherealplatesisnottobeconsideredasadielectricbutasanelectrolyte,aconductingfluid.Thismeansthatthenegativeplateisextendedtroughthefluidsuchthatthenegativechargedoesnotresideonthenegativeplateitself,butinsidethefluidveryclosetothepositiveplate,namelyattheborderofthedielectric,nonconductinglayerthathasbeenformedatthepositiveplate.
Thisway,youcangetastrongelectricfieldnearthepositiveplate,atlowvoltagesbecausethedistancebetweenthe"plates"isverysmall,intheorderofafewmicrometer.
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Anotherveryinterestingfeatureofdielectricsisthattheycanbepolarised.Ifyoumakethispolarisationpermanent,usuallybyheatingadielectricmaterialandlettingitcoolagainwhileinanelectricfield,youhaveanelectret.Inelectrolyticcapacitors,thepolarisationisnonpermanent.Itfadesawayaftersome,usuallyshort,time.
However,thispolarisationdependsonthestrengtoftheelectricfieldthatisappliedtoit(acrossthecapacitor"plates"),soitappearstobepossibletocreateastrongpolariseddielectricinbetweentheplatesofanelectrolyticcapacitorbyapplyinghighvoltagepulsestothecapacitor.Itappearsthatthiswayyoucanpolarisethedielectricusingverylittleenergyandsinceittakesawhilebeforethepolarisationfadesaway,yougetawindowofopportunitytoutilisetheelectricfieldyoujustcreatedinyourdielectric.Ofcourse,thehighertheappliedvoltage,thelongerthepolarisationlasts.
AsIpostedhere:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffectProf.Turturthengivesyouthekeyintounderstandinghowthisprocesscangiveyoumoreenergyoutthanyouhavetoputinyourself.Theelectricfieldisanenergysource:
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AsfarasIcantell,atthismoment,theonlyexplanationfortheexistenceofexcessenergyinanycapacitorlikesystem,beitBedini'scapsandbatteriesorMeyersfuellcell,isthemorethanlikelyexistenceofasuperpolarizeddielectricumsomewherebetweenthecapacitorplates.Itappearsthatinallthesesystemselectrolyticcapacitorsarebeingcreated,withvariousqualities,dependingonthingsliketheusedmaterialsandliquids.However,itisclearthatsuchapolarizeddielectricumprovidesanelectricfieldandthattheenergyforthatcomesfromthevacuum,asexplainedbyProf.Turtur:http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf(page1014).
Thekeytoobtainingthisenergysourceandutilizingit,canbefoundinBedini'sandMeyerstechnologies(aswellasStiffler)andtheunderstandingofhowanelectrolyticcapacitorworks.
Thedielectriclayerformedinanormalelectrolyticcapacitorisverythin,andsuchthatthedielectricbreaksdownatabout125%ofthenormaloperatingvoltage.So,normally,thedielectriccanneverbepolarizedverystrong,becausethepolarizationisinducedusingafieldcreatedbythecapacitorplatesbecauseofanelectronflowfromoneplatetotheother.So,at125%ofthenormaloperatingvoltage,thedielectricumshortsoutandnofurtherpolarizationispossible.
However,anelectro(magnetic)fieldcanexistofitsown,withoutneedforanychargecarriers(electrons).So,ifyouwouldpolarizethedielectricumwithanelectromagneticorelectricfield,themaximumpolarizationpossibleisnolongerboundbythedielectricbreakdownpropertiesofthedielectric.
Whatyouapparantlygetthen,isasuperpolarizeddielectricuminbetweencapacitorplatesandanelectrolyte,whichcreatesanelectricfieldthatismuchstrongerthanthefieldcreatedbythecapacitorplates.Sinceundernormalcircumstances,thesetwoopposing(!)fieldsareofcomparablestrength,thenetfieldinthedielectricumisrelativelysmallorevenclosetozero,sothepolarizationinsidethedielectricumcannotmaintainitself,itisweakenedbythefieldofthecapacitorplates.
IthasbeenawhilesinceIthoughtaboutthisandnowIamnotsosureaboutthepartsthattalk
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aboutthebreakdownofthedielectric.Comingtothinkaboutthis,itappearsthatthereasonforhavingtousepulsesforthepolarisationofthedielectricisexactlybecausethefieldscreatedbythecapacitorplatesandthedielectricopposeoneanother.So,youcanonlyutilisethefieldcreatedbythedielectric(whichextendsintotheelectrolytefluide)tosplitwater(intheelectrolyte)whenyoudischargethecapacitorplatesthemselves...
So,yes,Ithinktheuseofaninsulatingdielectriclayermakesitpossibletosplitwaterusinganelectricfieldinsteadofanelectriccurrent.
However,ifyouusethetubesasanormalcapacitorandthedielectriclayerasjustaninsulator,youwillneedandmaintainveryhighvoltagesacrossyourcapacitorplates,whichwillmostlikelygivealotenergyleakageproblemsaswellasgivesyoutheproblemthatthedielectric"insulator"willpolariseandopposeyourappliedelectricfield.
OTOH:ifyouusethesametubesasanelectrolyticcapacitor,meaningyouhavetocreatethedielectriclayerelectrolytically(asIpostedhereBedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect)inordertomakeitverythin,thencangetaconsiderableelectricfieldinsideyourfluidwithouttheneedtomaintainveryhighvoltagesforaconsiderableamountoftime.
Tomakealongstoryshort:Iamconvincedthekeyis:theuseofadielectriclayerthatismaintainedasasemipermanentelectretusinghighvoltagepulses,suchascreatedbyBedini'sSSGandthelike.
August18,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
There'salsoaveryinterestingcommenthere,sayingbasicallythesamething:TheWaterFuelCell::ViewtopicWFCConditioningUpdate
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"IknowtherehasbeenlittleornointerestinwhatIsaidabouttheoxidelayerontheSSactuallybeingthedielectric,butsomethingIreadonanotherforumby'Ravi',hasmademeevenmoreconvincedbythisnow.Hestatedthatittookmonthsforhiscellstobeconditionedandworkingattheefficiencytheywerecurrentlyworkingat.
ThisiswhatIthinkishappening:
Stainlesssteelis'stainless'becauseofthechromuiminit.Thechromiumoxidiseswhenitcomesintocontactwithoxygen.Thiscreatesaninvisible,extremelythinfilmofchromuimoxide(Cr2O3).Thisfilmofchromiumoxideselfhealslikegalvanisedsteel,butunlikegalvanisedsteelthelayerisonly
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atomsthick.Chromiumoxideisaninsulator,withadielectricconstantofaround13,butatliterallyonlyatomsthick,simplytouchingitwillbreakthroughthisinsulation.
Now,theinterestingthingaboutstainlesssteelisthatitwillactuallycorrodebadlyinanOXYGENFREEenvironment.Itisthecontinualpresenceofoxygenintheairorwaterthatallowstheoxidefilmtoselfhealandmaintainitself.Now,thinkaboutwhatwedowhenweusessasananode.Weimmersethessinwatercontainingfreeoxygenwhichmaintainsitsprotectiveoxidelayer,butthenweattractlotsofpureoxygendirectlyontoit'ssurface.Ibelieveweareenhancingtheoxidelayer;thickeningtheoxidelayerandsocreatingamoreformidabledielectriclayer.Hencewehaveabetterwatercapacitorthatwillholdachargeforlonger"
Waterasthedielectricwasalwaysabugbearofmine,asIneverreallythoughtthispossible,orlikely...putsimplytapwaterconducts.Thentheimportanceofconditioningoftheplatescametolightmoreandmore,andwithitrealisationthattheconditioningwasactuallyforminganinsulatingdielectriclayer.Waterisnotthedielectric.
Wehavethecapacitornow,withwaterbeingsimplyanallencompassingextensionofthecathode.Nextquestionthenishowexactlyarewegettingthewatermoleculetosplitandreleaseitscomponentgases?
Iftheoxidelayerisaninsulator,formingthecapacitor,thenitshouldopposedDC.AC,ontheother,handwouldpasstoalesserorgreaterdegree,withthecapacitorallowingfarmorecurrentflowathigherfrequenciesthanlowerfrequencies.
Thethingis,wearenotprovidinganACsignaltoourcapacitor(whichispolarised),butratherDCpulses.ThecapacitorwillchargefromtheDCpulses,sotherewillbeastandingvoltageacrossthedielectric,andasthisleaksthepulseswillkeeptoppingthecapacitorup.
However,thisleakagecurrent,willpreventthevoltagereachingthe'stress'levelneededtophysicallypullthewaterapart,unlesswecantopitupfasterthanitcanleak.
Ithinkthatthesmallcurrentflowingthroughthewfcissimplythenaturaldcleakagecurrentofa'wetelectrolyticcapacitor',andwilllikelyhappenallthetimebecauseofthepdacrossthedielectric.Noamountofsocalled'ampconsumingdevices'beforethewfcwillstopthis.Onlyimprovingthedielectriclayerwillreducethis.
However,(s)healsotalksaboutdielectricbreakdown:
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IfandwhenaDCpulseattainsacertainlevelofpotentialdifferenceacrosstheoxidelayerdielectric,thenthisdielectriclayer(notthewater)briefly,butcatastrophicallybreaksdown.Thehighlychargedplateseffectivelyshortoutacrossthisdielectriclayer.However,thecurrentrestrictingLCcombinationwon'tallowthistohappenfastenough.Theelectricalchargesontheplatesareunabletoformanequilibriumandhencebalancetheplatechargesfromwithintheelectricalcircuit.Instead,otheroptionsarelookedforthisbeingthewater.Thewaterisinstantlyionisedasthewateriseffectivelypulledapart,theionsattemptingtomeetor,atleastreducethemassivechargedeficiton
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theplates.
Whenthishappens,currentthroughthecircuitisnotaffectedmuch,butalotishappeningtothewaterwithinthewfc.
IMHO,thisisnottheanswer.Especiallysomereportsabout"coldboiling"batteriesuptohalfanhourafterthepowerhasbeenshutoffstronglysuggestthatthekeystothesekindofphenomenonaretobefoundintheelectricfield(s)createdbypolariseddielectriclayer(s),notinelectriccurrents/chargemovements.
August18,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Thesocalledconditioningofthetubesispointlessinmyopinion.Evenifitisadielectriccoatingitcomesoffbytouchingit...Itisnotworththetimenortheeffort.
Dielectriccoatingscanbepurchasedfrommanysources.Itisimportantwhenchoosingadielectrictogetonewhichhasahighdielectricconstantandahighdielectricstrength.Findaliquidkindthatyoucaneitherdipyourtubesinorsprayiton.Letitdry,takeameasurementofboththecapcitanceandtheresistanceacrosstheplateswithwater(anykind).Youcanusethattocalaculatethedissipationfactor.Andtheresistance(shouldbeintheMegaOhmrange)canbeusedtocalculatetheleakagecurrent(currentflowingthroughwater).
Ahighdielectricconstantmaterialisneededbecauseitallowsthemostvoltagetobeinducedthroughthedielectricduetopolarization.
RelativepermittivityWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
DielectricstrengthWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
NatoneMThevoltagevaries,butinthepatentIreferencedaboveitstatesitiswithintherangeof500to20,000Volts.Onlypersonalexperimentationandknowledgewilltell.
AgainIwouldreferyoualltoresearchJLnaudin'sWFC.Heshowseverythinghedidandthereisnothingverycomplicated.Healsohasavideoshowinghydrogenproduction,andstillimagesoftheoscilloscopestepchargingtoshowparametricresonance.
WaterFuelCell(WFC)Researches
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IfyoulookatJLnaudinsmeasurementshehasaresiatanceacrossthewatercapmeasuredat2.94MOhms.Hehasthecapchargedto1.4kV.
Youuseohmslawtocalculateleakagecurrent.
I=ERwhereI=Currentinamps,E=VoltageinVolts,andR=ResistanceinOhms
1,400V/2,940,000Ohms=.00047Ampsleakage.
Keepinmindthisisnotthechargingcircuitcurrent.Itwillbegreater.Thisistheleakagethroughthewater.Ifthisleakageisnotinhibitedbyusingadielectriccoatingthecapacitorwillneverchargetoahighvoltageandtheonlyresultwillbelowvoltageelectroysisduetothevoltagedropcausedbythecurrentflowingthroughthewater.
August18,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
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Electrolysisofwateristhedecompositionofwater(H2O)intooxygen(O2)andhydrogengas(H2)duetoanelectriccurrentbeingpassedthroughthewater.
Wikipedia,electrolysisofwater
REF:ElectrolysisofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
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Whenacurrentispassedthroughasulfuricacidsolution,gasesaregeneratedateachelectrode
REF:ElectrolysisofWater
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WhenadirectelectriccurrentispassedthroughanELECTROLYTE(suchasamoltensaltoranaqueoussolutionofasalt,acidorbase),chemicalreactionstakeplaceatthecontactsbetweenthecircuitandthesolution.ThisprocessiscalledELECTROLYSIS
REF:Electrolysis
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"TheabovedescribedprocessisapparentlynotachemicalreactionprocesssuchasinFaraday'sLaws"
REFStanMeyer'spatent#4,798,661
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"VoltagePerformstheworkofoppositephysicalattraction"StanMeyerColoradoVideos
IguessyoursayingStanMeyerwasanidiotthen.Amanwhoholdsover20patents.Amanwhohadtohidehistruetechnologywithconfusionandvaguenesstogetitthroughthesecuritylawsandintothehandsofthepublic.
Thanksforthepost,itisgoodtohavesomeonedisagree,itonlyforcesusalltodigdeeperuntilweknowwithoutadoubtwehavethetruth.JustlookatJLnaudinsWFCresearch.Itisaverysmallscaleddownversiononlyoperatingatjustover1kV,butitworksanddoeswhatMeyerclaims.Itusesaseriesresonantcircuittochargeacapacitortoahighvoltage,andadielectricisusedalongwithablockingdiodetokeepthecapcharged,ohanditseperateswater.
August18,2010
sebosfato SeniorMember
JoinDate:Dec2008Location:milanPosts:478
HelloHMSYoutheoryisnice,howeverfrommyexperimentswithdielectricscoatingsandupto40kvicantellyouthatisnotthewaymeyerdid.Heusedcurrentyes.Andalsoveryexpensivecatalystmaterialstoachievewhatheclaimed.Notthateasy...
Ihavecontactwithamanthathaveapatentaboutgeneratingh2andweknowhowtodoit,wejustmisssomemoneytoconstructtheprototype.Ithasmoretodowiththeselfionizationofthewaterandionsspeedthanonlycapacitancevariance.
Thiscapacitancedecreaseyoumentionisnonsenseandicanexplaintoyouwhy...isbecauseifyoudecreasethecapacitanceyouwillincreasethevoltagebuttheamountofchargewillremainthesamesonosensenogainnoexplanation.
Thereisapatentwitchiscalledfracturecellbyeccleswhereheexplainthesameselfionizationprinciplewitchi'mtalkingabout.
Allthetimewaterselfionize,itsions,however,youneedtofindawaytokeepitsohandh3+ionsapartotherwisetheyimmediatelyrecombinewhenyoutrytosplitthemapart.Therearemechanismstohelpthisorganizedionization.Therearemechanismstoapplytwodifferentpowersourcestothewater+1kindofforce.Thereisstillyetawaywhereoneofthissourcestoberfenergyandtheotherveryverylowtensionathugehugehugeamperage,togeneratetonsofh2ando2.ThereisawaywhereyouuseproprietiescorrelatedwiththeDorbitalsofsomematerialsassociatedwithlatticeholestohelpdissociateandkeepaparttheionsatthehighspeedneeded.Thereisstillanotherwaytocontroltheactionofthismaterialswitchnevergetconsumedintheprocesstobehaveasaspongeforionsifyoulike.Thereareinexpensivemembranesmadeofamaterialwitchwhereusedforconstructionof
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structures3000yeasagothatstillexistfloatingoverhewaterallaroundtheworld.Therearepumpsthatworkveryefficiently.Therearetanksmadeoffiberglass.ThereareInductorsmadeofcopperbarsandnotthinwire.Resonantcapacitorsthatcanhandle10kA...
August18,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Quote:
Thiscapacitancedecreaseyoumentionisnonsenseandicanexplaintoyouwhy...isbecauseifyoudecreasethecapacitanceyouwillincreasethevoltagebuttheamountofchargewillremainthesamesonosensenogainnoexplanation.
Voltageisanelectricalattractionforcewhichcancausepolarmoleculestorotateandmove(whichishowamicrowaveheatsfood)soifyouincreasevoltage,youincreasetheattractionforce.Thisiswhyhighvoltageisconsidereddangerous,ithastheabilitytoattractlargeamountsofcurrentflow...
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"Voltagecananddoesperformtheworkofoppositephysicalattraction"StanMeyer
REFVoltageWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
TheentiremethodofMeyer,Puharich,andDinglereliesonhighvoltageatregulatedcurrenttochargeacapacitor.Thecapacitorhasadielectrictoallowthevoltagefieldtobeinducedthroughthedielectricduetopolarization,butpreventscurrentflowthroughthewaterthuspreventingelectrolysis.
Ihaveseenothersexperimentsprovingthisworks.IfyoustudythepatentsofMeyer,puharichandothersyouwillfindtheyallaremakingthesameclaims.MeyerusedatheHVtransformer(VIC)circuit.Dingleusedavoltagemultiplier.PuharichusedaHVtransformer.
IalsomustsaythatIbelievethisverywellcouldbe(asexplainedbyTheDublinInstituteofTechnology)aninterruptionoftheselfionizationprocessofwater.Butinsteadofusingcurrentflow(electrolysis)itisdonewithHVfields.
SelfionizationofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
August19,2010
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sucahyo SeniorMember
JoinDate:Dec2008Posts:2,158
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 PuharichusedaHVtransformer.
PuharichdonotuseHV:http://www.freeenergyinfo.com/PatE7.pdf
August19,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Thesocalledconditioningofthetubesispointlessinmyopinion.Evenifitisadielectriccoatingit comesoffbytouchingit...Itisnotworththetimenortheeffort.
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WaterFuelCell(WFC)Researches
IfyoulookatJLnaudinsmeasurementshehasaresiatanceacrossthewatercapmeasuredat2.94MOhms.Hehasthecapchargedto1.4kV.
NotehatNaudin*is*"coating"thecenterelectrodetoo.Fromtheurlyouposted:
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ThecenterelectrodeoftheWFCv1.0hasbeencoveredwithathinadhesiveplasticsheetsohastogetafullyinsulatedcathod.So,itisnowpossibletogettheVoltageIntensificationwithanelectricalstepchargingeffect.BelowthemeasuredspecsofthenewinsulatedWFCv1.1.
Notethata"thinadhesiveplasticsheet"*is*adielectric....
Adielectrichasinsulationpropertiesaswellaspolarisationproperties.Naudinusestheinsulationpropertiesinordertogetridofanyleakagecurrent,usingasimpleplasticbag,butthe
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polarisationpropertiesarealsothere.Thisisaverythickinsulationlayercomparedtotheverythinlayersusedinsideelectrolyticcapacitors,sothecapacitanceoftheconstructionismuchlowerthancanbeachievedwithverythinlayersasisdonewith"real"electrolyticcapacitors.
However,asNaudinshows,theconstruction*is*a(electrolytic)capacitorandhethusconfirmsonceagainonecanusetheelectricfieldinsidethecapacitortosplitwaterusingonlyanelectricfield,whichisalimitlessenergysource(seeTurtur),albeitthatyouhavetodoworktomaintainthefieldbecauseofleakagecurrentsandotherlosses.Andbecausethedistancebetweenthecapacitorplatesisconsiderable(evenwhenconsideredasanelectrolyticcapacitor,becauseofthethickdielectriclayer),withNaudinsconstructionyouneedahighvoltageacrosstheplatesinordertogetsufficientlystrongelectricfieldforwatersplittingtooccur.Inthiscasemorethan1kV.
So,thebottomlineisthatwiththeseconstructionwaterisbeingsplitusingonlyanelectricfieldinsteadofanelectriccurrent.However,currentisstillneededinordertomaintainthefield,becauseofleakages.
August19,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Voltageisanelectricalattractionforcewhichcancausepolarmoleculestorotateandmove(whichishowamicrowaveheatsfood)soifyouincreasevoltage,youincreasetheattractionforce.Thisis whyhighvoltageisconsidereddangerous,ithastheabilitytoattractlargeamountsofcurrentflow...
Itisactuallyabitmorecomplexthanthat.Voltagebasicallysayssomethingabouttheelectricfieldstrengthattwodifferentpointsinspace:
REF:VoltageWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
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Thevoltagebetweentwopointsisashortnamefortheelectricalforcethatwoulddriveanelectriccurrentbetweenthosepoints.Specifically,voltageisequaltoenergyperunitcharge.[1]Inthecaseofstaticelectricfields,thevoltagebetweentwopointsisequaltotheelectricalpotentialdifferencebetweenthosepoints.Inthemoregeneralcasewithelectricandmagneticfieldsthatvarywithtime,thetermsarenolongersynonymous.[2]
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Electricpotentialistheenergyrequiredtomoveaunitelectricchargetoaparticularplaceinastaticelectricfield.[3]
So,voltageisnotsomethingthatexistsonitselfsotospeak,butitsayssomethingaboutthestrengthofthe(static)electricfieldsthatareatwork.
Mostofthetime,itisnotsoimportanttonotethedifference,butinactualfactvoltageisnotaforce.It'smorelikethesummationoftheforcesenactedbytheelectricfieldoveracertaindistance(acertainpath)betweenthetwopointsofmeasurement.
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REFVoltageWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
TheentiremethodofMeyer,Puharich,andDinglereliesonhighvoltageatregulatedcurrenttochargeacapacitor.Thecapacitorhasadielectrictoallowthevoltagefieldtobeinducedthroughthedielectricduetopolarization,butpreventscurrentflowthroughthewaterthuspreventingelectrolysis.
Notethatapolarizeddielectricinbetweencapacitorplatesacutallyreducestheelectric(voltage)fieldinbetweentheplates:
REF:DielectricWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
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Chargeseparationinaparallelplatecapacitorcausesaninternalelectricfield.Adielectric(orange)reducesthefieldandincreasesthecapacitance.
August19,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Patentsdon'tmeanathing,andourpersonalviewsonMeyerareultimatelyquiteirrelevant.Thetruthliesinthescienceorlackthereof,andalwayswill.
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I'vetriedtocontactNaudinwithsomequestionsonhissetup,buthe'sneverbotheredreplying. Obviouslytheinsulatedcathodewillallowvoltagetobuildupasitwillalsopreventcurrentflow,andthisinsulationbecomesadielectric,butIdefyanyonetogetNaudinssetupactuallyworkingashedemonstrates.TheveryfactthatheprovidesalinkstoMeyer'sveryflawedexplanationofwhatis happeningatmolecularlevelimmediatelytriggersalarmbells.
It'slikeI'vepointedoutonnumerousoccasions,highvoltage(orevenlowvoltage)willorientatethebipolarwatermoleculeandpulsingmayindeedinducegreaterionisation,butyouareonlyleftwithhydroxlionsandhydronium.Sadlyyoudon'tgetthewatermoleculecleanlypulledapart convenientlyintooxygenandhydrogenasdepictedbyMeyer..andwhichisoftenunfortunatelytookasgospelbymany.
Asitstandsyouneedachargeexchangebridgeofsomesort,whichisalongthelinesofmyunansweredquestionstoNaudin.
IhavedonealotofworkinthisareaandI'mcurrentlydevelopingdesignstoproveordisprove someofmytheories.Onethingthathasalwaysbeenapparentisthatyouneedachargeexchangemediumofsomesortifyouaredealingwithionswithinthewater.
Ifyoureallythinkthatsimplyapplyinghighvoltagepulsesacrosswaterwillresultintheevolutionof oxygenandhydrogen,thentryitandseewhathappensordoesnothappen.I'mafraidit'snotquitethatsimple.
Thereareplentyofclaims,butsadlylittleinthewayofindependentlysubstantiatedclaims,andultimatelynorealproof.
Also,youhavetoconsider,thatifnocurrentwhatsoeverpassesthroughthewater,whichmanyofyouseemtothinkistheidealsituation,thenthevoltageontheelectrodeswillsimplybuilduptoamaximumandnocurrentwillevenflowthroughtheelectricalcct.
WRONG!
So,I'mcurious,inthisscenariowhatchemicalreactionswouldyouarguearetakingplaceinthewater?
Goodpointsandquestions!Let'sthinkaboutthis.
AsIpostedabove,whenyoupolarizeadielectricinsideacapacitor,thepolarizationwillactuallyopposethefieldyouappliedyourself.Fromanelectricalengineeringpointofview,onemustrealisethattherelationbetweentheelectricalfieldandelectricalcurrentatadetailedlevelisnotsotightlycoupledasmostofusthink.Inactualfact,electricalcurrentsdonotimmediatelyflowonceafieldispresent,thecurrentlagsbehindintime.Inotherwords:whileanelectricfieldmaycauseanelectriccurrenttoflow,itisnotthesamething.Itismorelikethatthewindmaycauseaboattomove,eventhoughamovingboatcausesdisturbancesintheairaroundit,too.
Sofar,sogood.
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Ihavebeenintriguedforquitesometimebyreportsof"selfchargingcapacitors"and"coldboilingbatteries"afterhavingbeenchargedusingBedini'schargers.IcanonlyexplainthesekindsofphenomenonifIassumeapolarizeddielectriclayertobepresentsomewhereinthedevice.Inthecaseofaelectrolyticcapacitor,thisisactuallyawellknownphenomenoncalled"dielectricrelaxation":Spontaneouschargingradiantlychargedcapacitorresearchgroup
Itappearsthatthiswellknowndielectricrelaxationphenomenoncaneasilybeputintoahighergear,namelybyapplyinghighvoltagepulsesinsteadofDC,becausetheamountofpolarizationinthedielectricrelatesdirectlytotheappliedfield,i.e.thevoltage.Whateffectivelyhappensafterthepulsehas"diedout"isthatthepolarizeddielectricumsortoftakesovertheroleoftheexternalpowersupply.Capacitorsaswellasbatteriesspontaneouslyrechargebecauseofthisforceaccordingtoseveralreports.
Intheendyoujustuseanotherenergysourcetopush/pullyourelectronsaroundinthesystem.Thenicethingisthatthisisanenergysourceyoudon'thavetopayfor.Theonlydifferenceisthatthecurrentthatgoestroughtheliquidgoestheotherwayaroundcomparedtowheninducedbytheexternalpowersupply,ifIunderstandthisright.
So,thereisnothingunusualintermsofthechemicalreactions.It'sjustusingadifferentenergysourceinordertogettheelectrons(current)going...
Atsomepoint,thisstuffgetsquiteconfusing.Itappearsthatwhenyougofarenoughintothedetailsyouhavetoleavetheideathatcapacitorsstoreenergybymeansofpilingupelectronsbehind.Thevideopostedhereisveryintriguingindeed:Peter,whateverhappenedwithEricP.Dollard?
AndgoodoldSteinmetzalreadyknewthisperfectlyyearsago:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect
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Thereisobviouslynomoresenseinthinkingofthecapacitycurrentascurrentwhichchargestheconductor[capacitor]withaquantityofelectricity,thanthereisofspeakingoftheinductancevoltageaschargingtheconductor[inductance]withaquantityofmagnetism.
August19,2010
MichaelJohnNunnerley SeniorMember
JoinDate:May2008Posts:574
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HVisoneofthekeys
Hvisoneofthekeysbutyoualsoneedachemicalchangesoasyoujustdonotendupwithwaterandalowtypeofelectrolysis.
TheHVhastobeinacontrolledstatesuchasinanelectronbeam,controlledcurrentisalsoimportantatthesource,notthepointofimplimentationasHVwillchangetohighcurrentinanydischargebeitalaser,electronbeamorcatastroficdialectricbreakdown.
UsingHVforelectronbeamgenerationisaprocessthattakesplaceinmicrosecoundsandifyoudonotcreateachemicalchangeatthatsamemomentyouwillnotobtainanythingandthisiswherepeopledonotgetitright.
WegobacktothegasN2,yesN2yetagain,Farraissayingforsure,butthatiswherethechemicalchangetakesplacesoaswedonotjustendupwithwateragain.Microsecoundsornanosecounds,thisiswhenthewaterandthenitrogenareattheirpointofvulnerability,thisisthetimeforchemicalchange.
Theamountofwaterisinthemicronamount,ifitistoomuchthenwewouldneedaverylargeamountofenergytocreatetheinstability.IfyouhadN2witha90%humiditythenyouhaveenoughwater,infacttheN2withwatervapouryoudonotseeit,itistransparent,thisiswhatisneededasyourbasictwocomponents.
ItisnoteasytobuildareactorforthechangetoNH3andN2O,wearedealingwithHVandinsulationproblemsdoarisesoasnottocreateshortingproblemswithinthereactor,aswehavefound.
Thisisoneofthereasonsforaslowerprogresstoafulldisclosure.Iamnotsayingthatthisistheonlyway,butformeitistheonlylogicalwayanditWORKS,whichisthemostimportantfactor.
Takeplantsandtheirchangingwithphotosynthesis,thisisanelectricalandchemicalchangeinnanosecounds,allatthesametime,itisnatureswayandthebestway.
August19,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Letmejustsayonceagain.Thisprocessiseithersplittingwaterusingelectricfieldsoritispreventingtheselfionizationprocessfromreturningtostability.Eitherwayitusesahighvoltagecapacitorinwhichcurrentflowthroughthewaterdielectricisreducedasmuchaspossibleusingadielectricfilm.Thevoltageattractionforceeitherattractstheunlikechargedatoms,ortheunlikepositiveandnegative
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ions(createdfromselfionization).
August19,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Okthenhowdoyousuggesttheionicreactionintohydrogenandoxygeniscreated?Andhowwouldyoudescribejlnaudin'sreplication?
August19,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Youcanrepeatyourselfasmanytimesasyouwant,butitwontchangethefacts.
Soyou'vegottheionsseparatedusinganelectricfield,butyoudon'twantcurrenttoflowthroughtheelectrodes...sowhatareyougoingtodowiththeseionsnow??BecauseIcantellyouonething, theywon'tmagicallytransformintooxygenandhydrogen.
Splittingthewaterisnottheproblem,thisissimplyionisation,whetherit'saproductofselfionisationorinducedionisation.It'swhatyoudotoprogressfromhydroniumionsandhydroxylionstoareactionthatevolvesoxygenandhydrogenthatisthecrucialpart!Andindeedisthepartwhereallideasofproducinggasesfromvoltagealonecomeunstuck...extremelyunstuck!
Thereactionsthattakeplacecanbefoundhere:ElectrolysisofwaterWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
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nthewateratthenegativelychargedcathode,areductionreactiontakesplace,withelectrons(e)fromthecathodebeinggiventohydrogencationstoformhydrogengas(thehalfreactionbalancedwithacid):
Reductionatcathode:2H+(aq)+2e H2(g)
Atthepositivelychargedanode,anoxidationreactionoccurs,generatingoxygengasandgiving
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electronstotheanodetocompletethecircuit:
Anode(oxidation):2H2O(l) O2(g)+4H+(aq)+4e
Thesamehalfreactionscanalsobebalancedwithbaseaslistedbelow.Notallhalfreactionsmustbebalancedwithacidorbase.Manydoliketheoxidationorreductionofwaterlistedhere.Toaddhalfreactionstheymustbothbebalancedwitheitheracidorbase.
Cathode(reduction):2H2O(l)+2e H2(g)+2OH(aq)
Anode(oxidation):4OH(aq) O2(g)+2H2O(l)+4e
Combiningeitherhalfreactionpairyieldsthesameoveralldecompositionofwaterintooxygenandhydrogen:
Overallreaction:2H2O(l) 2H2(g)+O2(g)
Thenumberofhydrogenmoleculesproducedisthustwicethenumberofoxygenmolecules.Assumingequaltemperatureandpressureforbothgases,theproducedhydrogengashasthereforetwicethevolumeoftheproducedoxygengas.Thenumberofelectronspushedthroughthewateristwicethenumberofgeneratedhydrogenmoleculesandfourtimesthenumberofgeneratedoxygenmolecules.
Therearetwohalfreactions.Oneofthem"eating"electrons,theotherdeliveringelectrons.So,inessenceallittakestoformacompletereactionsisawaytomovetheelectronfromwhereitisfreedtowhereitisusedintheotherhalfreaction.
Normally,youwoulddothatusinganelectricalwire,sotospeak.However,therealsoisaneffectknownas"dielectricbreakdown".Thismeansthatwhenasufficientlystrongelectricfieldisappliedtoadielectric,itstopsbeinganinsulatorandbecomesaninductor:ElectricalbreakdownWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
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Alternatively,itmayrefertoarapidreductionintheresistanceofanelectricalinsulatorthatcanleadtoasparkjumpingaroundorthroughtheinsulator.Thismaybeamomentaryevent(asinanelectrostaticdischarge),ormayleadtoacontinuousarcdischargeifprotectivedevicesfailtointerruptthecurrentinahighpowercircuit.[...]
Partialbreakdownoftheairoccursasacoronadischargeonhighvoltageconductorsatpointswiththehighestelectricalstress.Asthedielectricstrengthofthematerialsurroundingtheconductordeterminesthemaximumstrengthoftheelectricfieldthesurroundingmaterialcantoleratebeforebecomingconductive,conductorsthatconsistofsharppoints,orballswithsmallradii,aremorepronetocausingdielectricbreakdown.Coronaissometimesseenasabluishglowaroundhighvoltagewiresandheardasasizzlingsoundalonghighvoltagepowerlines.Coronaalsogenerates
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radiofrequencynoisethatcanalsobeheardas'static'orbuzzingonradioreceivers.
Forwater,thishappenswhenfieldstrengthsintheorderof30MV/m,or30kV/mm,or3kV/0.1mmarereached.(DielectricstrengthWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia)
Ishouldaddthattherequiredfieldstrengthfordielectricbreakdowntooccurinwaterdoesnotnecessarilyhavetobeastaticfieldstrength.Giventhefactthattheelectricfieldpropagatesatthespeedoflight,onecanatleasttheoreticallyreachtherequiredfieldstrengthwithlowervoltages,providedoneswitchesfastenough.Inotherwords,onecancreateaelecricalshockwavewhereatthewavefrontyouhaveaverysteepchangeinthefieldstrength.Ifthatwouldbethecase,IwouldexpectthatBedinikindofpulsesaremoreeffectivethanharmonic(sinewave)oscillators,becauseoftherapidswitchingprovidedbythesuddeninterruptionofacurrenttroughacoil.
Interestingly,someglowinghasbeenreportedbysomeWFCreplicators.Thisdoessuggestitispossibletoachieveelectrolysisbyhavingtheelectronsjumpdirectlybetweenthetwohalfreactionstakingplace*inside*thefluid.Youbasicallygettinysparksinsidethefluidinsteadofacurrentgoingthelongwaytroughthepowersupply.
Itmayverywellbethatthereareatleastthreowaystoinducetherequiredfieldstrengthinthefluid:1)Youusereallyhighvoltages(>30kV/mm)acrossyourcapacitorplates.2)Yousendahighvoltageshockwaytroughthefluid,whichtravelstroughthewholefluidbetweentheplates.3)Youpolarizeathindielectriclayertosuchadegreethatinitsvicinitytheelectricfieldisgreaterthanwhatisrequiredforthewaternearbytoreachdielectricbreakdown.
Theresultspostedbydifferentexperimentorsand/orsomepatentssuggestthatallthreewaysarepossibleandcanbeachievedpractically.
August19,2010
MichaelJohnNunnerley SeniorMember
JoinDate:May2008Posts:574
H+H+OorH2+O2
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OriginallyPostedbynatone_m Howareyoucreatingthevaporandmixingitinthereator?Iknowyou'vementionedbeforethatfirstH20hastobecrackedintoHHOsothatyouhavetheHavailableforNH3?Doyouheatthewater, regulateit,mixitwitharegulatedairsupplyinthereatorandbasicallyionizethewatervaporandairatthesametimeordoyoutreatthewaterinaseparatereactorthenmixitintheGPreactor?Thereasoniaskisbecauseyousaythatthewindowforcreatingnewmixtureisshort.Ithe
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relaxationtimeforHHOequallyasshort?
Iwilljustreplytoyoulastsentence,whenyousplitwaterintohydrogenandoxygenyouwillgetH+H+OBUTthetimetochangetoH2+O2isfastandifyouwanttochangethehydrogenandoxygenintoanothergasyouhavetobeveryveryquickbeforeyouhavelosttheadvantageoftwoatomic"reactive"gases,thatisifyouwanttocreateanothergas,amorecompleteandcontrolablegasorgases.
HowmuchwaterdoyoureallyneedatanyonetimeifitistotallychangedintoHandOandhowmuchenergywouldyouusetodoit,andthemostimportantquestionofall,wouldyougetbacksufficientenergytokeepthesystemrunning?(Iamtalkingaboutrunninganenginehere).
August19,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
IhavemadeanoverviewofmostofmypostsonthisforumregardingtheelectreteffecttheoryatArticle:TheElectretEffectPESWiki.Iintendtoworkthisoutinaproperarticleeventually,butitmayalreadybeinterestingtoreadasitisnow.
August19,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
ItseemsnowthatouronlyoptionistoreplicateJLnaudin'sWFC.
Ifanyofyouknowelectronics,itisaverysimplecircuit.Nothingcomplicated,nothinghardtoget.Theentirereplicationcouldprobablybedoneforlessthan100bucks...
Tostartweneedthefollowing:
ACtransformer(removedfromwallplugadapter)
SStubes:3"inlength,Outertubeis.75"ID,maybe1"ODInnertube(orrodis1/2"OD)
12VDCPowerSupply(battery,computerpowersupplyetc)
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HVdiode(ex:5kV,150nSreverserecoverytime,.25Amax)
24AWGenammelledmagnetwire
Ferrtiterodsorelectricalsteelcoreandbobbins
Nowforthedrivingcircuitwewillneed.
(2)50%dutycycle010kHzsquarewaveoscillators
(1)4093ICchip
Pots,resistors,diodes,andcapacitorsforcircuit(tobedeterminedonceIC'sareselected)
Circuitboardorbreadboard
FETI'mthinkinganIRFP450orsimiliarsinceit'sratedat500V....Ifthiscircuitcreateshighvoltageweneedsomethingwitharatingtobeabletotakethepossiblespikesattheprimary.
IwillgetbacktoyoualllaterwhenIdrawoutthecircuit....Keepinmindthiswillbeascaleddownversionwithaverylowmaxvoltageandsmallgasproductionsimiliartonaudin's.
Tobecontinued...
August19,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Beforeanyonebuildsthiscircuittheyneedtounderstandelectronicsenoughtounderstandwhatit'sdoingandhowitallworks.
Tobrieflyexplainthecircuit,thetwo4046'sareusedtoprovidea50%dutycycleoutput,adjustablefrom010kHz.The4046outputstothenandlogicwhich'gates'thecircuit.Thegatingiscontrolledbythefrequencyofoneortheother4046.Itdoesnotmatterwhichone.Ifyouhaveone4046adjustedatresonanceandyoubringtheother4046frequencyhigheryourgatingwillincrease.....etcetc.
ThelogicfromtheNANDgatecontrolstheFETwhichpulsestheprimarywinding.ThediodeplacedacrosstheprimarywindingisusedtopreventinductivekickandprotecttheFET.Thesecondarycircuit
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isobviouslyasetofchokeswoundonthesamebobbinbifilarstyle.Adidoeisplacedinthecircuittoallowthecaptochargebutpreventitfromdischargingbackthroughthecircuit.Thechokesarealsousedtocausethechargingfrequencytobe2Xresonancemakingparametricresonancepossible.
ThecircuitsresonantfrequencyiscalculatedbetweentheSecondarycoilandthewatercapacitor.Thechokesarenotpartoftheresonance.Thechokesaremeanttolimitchargingcurrent(sinceatresonancethecircuitisnearadeadshort)usingtheirinductivereactanceXl.
Anyonewhobuildsthiscirucitdoessoattheirownrisk.HighVoltageisDangerous!
Therearemanythingsheretoconsider.Firstoffyoumustcalcualtetheturnsratioofthetransformer.Ifyoudon'tknowhowtodothis,forgetaboutreplicatingandgetaneducationinelectronics.Youwillnotbesuccessfulinthisuntilyouhavetheproperknowledge.
Secondlyyouneedtomeasuretheinductanceandresistanceofthesecondarycoil.(rememberthesecondarywillbetheendthatorigonallywaspluggedintothewallsinceweareusingastepdowntransformer(forgottomentionearlier)
August19,2010
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HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
OnceyouhavethecircuitbuilttestitusingaresistorandLEDfirst.Thendebugifthereareanyproblems.
Thenextproblemisgoingtobecoatingthecathodewithadielectriccoating....NaudinusedathinplasticsheetandthenwrappedthatintapeIbelieve.Thethinplasticsheethetalksaboutsoundstomelikesomethinglikescreenprotectorplastic???
Therearealsoliquiddielectriccoatingsavailable....Youneedadielectricwithahighdielectricconstantandadecentdielectricstrength....Iwouldsuggestyouhaveathicknessabletowithstandatleast3kV.Also,readupondielectricstobetterunderstandthem.
Thiswebsitecoverssomeinportantinformationondielectricstouseformakingyourowncapacitor!
Dielectric
Itisimportanttoalsomakesureyourdielectriccanhandlebeingsubjectedtohydrogenandoxygenwithoutbeingdamaged.
Itisveryimportantthatafteryouhavethecathodecoatedyouletitsitinwaterforseveraldays.Thenmeasuretheresistanceacrosstheplatesfromthewiresconnectedtothecap.Thisresistanceshouldbeatleast1Meg,thehigherthebetter.
Measurethecapacitance.WithwaterandnodielectriccoatingtheresistancewillbeafewKohmsandthecapacitancewillbeverylow....Withjustwateryouendupwithanextremelypoorcapacitorthatwillnotchargeneitherretainacharge.
Naudin'scapacitorspecs:5.19nFand2.94MegOhms.SinceweknowOhmslawwecancalucaltetheleakagecurrentthroughthewateratagivenvoltage.Ifthecapischargedto1,000V/2,940,000Ohms=.00034Amps,verylow
Nowthatyouhavethesecondaryinductanceandthecapacitanceyoucancalculateresonance.Itshouldbeinthe1kHz8kHzrangetomakesurethecircuitwilldriveitatresonance.
Thenextthingtodoisbuildyourinductors.Ifyourresonantfrequencyislowyoumightwanttomakethechokeinductance'shigher....SinceatreasonancethecircuitisnearashortsincereactancescancelyouneedtomaketheinductorshaveahighenoughXLtoprotectthecircuit.Alsobesureyouconnectinductorsinaseriesaidingconfiguration.
Ifyouknowelectronicswellenoughyoucancalculatevoltageandcurrentthroughouttheentirecircuit(minustransformerlosses)toensureitwilloperatesafely.
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Thereisalottoknowwhenbuildingthis.Iwoulduseup20pagesifIhadtoexplainjusttheelectronicsandthecircuit.....Eventhenitisstillandwillalwaysbealearningprocess.
AnyQuestionssofaraboutthisreplication?
August20,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Lamare,considerthis:
Ifitonlytakesaround1.5voltsbeforeelectrolysisoccurs,howcanwaterbeconsideredanythinglikeagooddielectric?Assoonasthevoltageexceeds1.5volts,thewaterconducts.
Peoplehavebeenforeverstatingtherelativepermitivityofpurewater,(thekeywordherebeing'PURE'),andassumingthisfigureforanyoldwater.Andnooneeverseemstobeabletograspthedifference.
Purewaterinthiscontextisnighonimpossibletoachieve.Notonlydoeswaterreadilyselfionise, butassoonasit'sexposedtotheatmosphere,atmosphericgasesreadilydissolveinit,tosaynothingofcontaminantsfromothersources.BitofabuggerIknow,butevendeionisedwatermakesforapoordielectric,andasfortapwater...wellit'safarbetterconductorthaninsulator.
Waterthatcanwithstandkvoltsbeforeitbreaksdownandconductsisspeciallypreparedinlaboratories,andwouldcostmorethanpetrol,whichmakesitallprettypointless.
Forwhatit'sworth(probablynotmuch)Meyerstatedthathecoulduseanyoldwater.Hecertainlydidn'tuselaboratorygradePUREwater,that'sforsure.
Ohboy.IknowIpostedthestandardreactionsforelectrolysisandthatwasonpurpose.Bothhalfreactionsarestandardredoxreactionswhichdonotoccurnaturally,becauseittakesenergytotakeelectronsfromthenegativeionsandfeedthemtothepositiveionstokeepthereactiongoing.Normally,youdothatusingelectrodesandapowersupply,butthereain'tnolawofphysicsthatforbidsyoutoperformtheexactsamereactionmoredirectlyusingastrongelectricfield.
IalsorealisethatthedataandwaterproportiesIpostedmaybeprettyfaroffbecauseofthereasonsyougave.However,theydogiveyousomeindication.
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Geventheelectricstrengthofpurewater,30kV/mm,itiscleartherequiredfieldstrengthisachievablewithcapacitorplatesplacedatadistanceof1mm.Whenyouaretalkingaboutthethindielectricfilmsusedinelectrolyticcapacitorswhichareintheorderofafewmicrometer,youalreadycomewithintherequiredrangewithsomethingintheorderof60V.
WhiteIagreethesearejustroughestimations,intheendpracticerules.AndpracticereportedbynonelessthanJohnBedinisaysbatteriescan"coldboil".Naudin'stubesdoproducegas.Andthelistgoesonandon.Ijusttrytofindthepossiblemechanismstoexplainwhatpeoplereporttheysawinpractice.
Letmeaddthatitisnotimportantwetherornotwaterisa"good"dielectric.Whatmattersishowthevariousatomsandionsinsidethefluidreacttoanappliedelectricfield.Whathappenswhenadielectricbreaksdownisthatelectronsarefreedfromthematerialbecausetheyarerippedoftheatomsorionstheywereattachedtosuddenlyturningthematerialintoaconductor.AccordingtoWikipedia,whenonedoesthisonpurpose,onecreatesa"Disruptivedevice":
REF:ElectricalbreakdownWikipedia,thefreeencyclopedia
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Adisruptivedeviceisadevicethathasadielectric,whereuponbeingstressedbeyonditsdielectricstrength,hasanelectricalbreakdown.Thisresultsinthesuddentransitionofpartofthedielectricmaterialfromaninsulatingstatetoahighlyconductivestate.Thistransitionischaracterizedbytheformationofanelectricspark,andpossiblyanelectricarcthroughthematerial.Ifthisoccurswithinasoliddielectric,physicalandchemicalchangesalongthepathofthedischargewillcausepermanentdegradationandsignificantreductioninthematerial'sdielectricstrength.Asparkgapisatypeofdisruptivedevicethatusesagasorfluiddielectricbetweenspacedelectrodes.Unlikesoliddielectrics,liquidorgaseousdielectricscanusuallyrecovertheirfulldielectricstrengthoncecurrentflow(throughtheplasmainthegap)hasbeenexternallyinterrupted.
Thefollowingarticlehandlesabout"dielectricbreakdown"ofwater:SandiaNationalLabsWaterDielectricBreakdownData
August20,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
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OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Idon't,I'mnottheonesayingthatyoucanevolvegasesbydissociatingwaterbyvoltagealone...youare.Youtellme!
Inmyworld,asIstatedpreviously,wealwaysneedachargeexchangemediumwhendealingwithions.
Lamare,forsomereason,hassimplypostedthereactionsofnormaleverydayelectrolysis.Nothingnewthere,thisiswhatwearealltaughtatschool.Obviouslythereactionspasteddonotapplyifnocurrentisflowing.I'mthereforeatalosstofindanyrelevancetothepost,asvoltagealonewillnotproducethosereactions.
Whatyouappeartomisunderstandisthequestion*where*thecurrentisflowing.Currentisnothingmorenorlessthanmovingelectronsaround,whichoccurswhen(free)electronsaresubjectedtoanelectricfield.Whatismostcommonistohaveelectronsmovearoundinawireusingapowersupply,butthereareotherways.Forexampleinclassicamplifiertubes,thereisaheatedwirewhichreleaseselectronsintothevacuum,whicharesubsequentlyattractedtothemetalshieldsurroundingthewireandthatwayyoualsogetacurrent.
Usingthesameprinciple,pushingelectronsaroundusinganelectricfield,itisclearthatyoucanalsomovefreeelectronsaroundinafluid,which*is*acurrent.It'sjustthatthecurrentremainslocallyinsidethefluid,soyoudon'tprovideacurrentintothefluidyourselftroughtheterminalcontacts.
Inotherwords:ifyousomehowhavebeenabletocreatefreeelectronsinsideyourfluid,allittakestomakethemflowtroughthefluidisanelectricfield.Andasithappens,youcancreatefreeelectronsinsidethefluidprettyeasily.Justapplyanelectricfieldthatisstrongenoughtoripelectronsfromthenegativeions,a.k.a."dielectricbreakdown".
So,youareright,nothingnewhere.Justamatterofpushingelectronsaround
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It'shardtoknowwhattomakeofNaudin'sreplicationashewon'tansweremailsandthereiscrucialinfolackingonhiswebsite.ButIknowthatafullyinsulatedcathodewon'tdowhatheisshowingittodo.MostpeoplesimplytakethesethingsforgrantedIdon't!
AtthebottomofthepagehestatesheiscurrentlybuildingaWFCv2whichIwashopingmightshedmorelightonthingsbutnothinghashappenedforwelloverayear,somaybethisitselfisanindicationofthingsnotquitegoingtoplan.
IMHOyoumaybewrongaboutthat.Iftheappliedelectricfieldisstrongenough,itisabletocreatefreeelectronsinsidethefluid("dielectricbreakdown").Thatwayyouget"real"electronbasedcurrentsinsidethefluid,insteadofthe(relativelyslow)ionbasedcurrentsthatnormallytakeplaceinwater.
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August20,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay
Actually,Iunderstandperfectlywell,andcurrentisnotnecessarilyelectronmovement.
Youhowevertalkabout'free'electronsinthefluidmedium,yetelectronsarenotthecurrentcarriersinafluidmediumsuchaswater.Thecurrentcarriersareionicspecies,notelectrons!HowcanyoustriptheOHionofitselectronusinganelectricfieldwhentheionitselfwillsimplymoveinresponse?
Howcanyouripofthebumberofacarusingarope,whenthecarwillsimplymoveinresponse?
(sudden)bruteforce....
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Furthermoreasalreadystated,thereisnodielectrictobreakdowninwaterit'saconductorabovearound1.5volts!
REF:http://www.waterfuelconverters.com/e070401.pdf
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Wefindthatcompletedielectricfailureislikelytooccurinwaterbetweenasignificantlyfieldenhancedanodeandalessenhancedcathode...
So,youarerightthatundernormal,lowvoltageconditons(withtheassociatedlowelectricfieldstrength)ionsaretheprimechargecarriersinwater.However,whenanelectricfieldwithsufficientstrengthisappliedtothewaterdielectricbreakdowndoesundoubdlyoccurandthensuddenlyfreeelectronsbecometheprimechargecarriers,becausetheycantravelmuchfasterthanionssincethesearemuchheavier.Justgooglefor"waterdielectricbreakdown".
August20,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
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Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Thenextproblemisgoingtobecoatingthecathodewithadielectriccoating....NaudinusedathinplasticsheetandthenwrappedthatintapeIbelieve.Thethinplasticsheethetalksaboutsoundstomelikesomethinglikescreenprotectorplastic???
Therearealsoliquiddielectriccoatingsavailable....Youneedadielectricwithahighdielectricconstantandadecentdielectricstrength....Iwouldsuggestyouhaveathicknessabletowithstandatleast3kV.Also,readupondielectricstobetterunderstandthem.
Aaronpreviouslysuggested"CoronaDope".Interestingly,alongwithreferencesthatStanMeyersupposedlydidthesamethingusingDelrin,whateverthatmaybe:
StanMeyerBifilarChokes
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HereiswhatIbelieveisanecessaryconceptthatmustbethroughlyexploredoritdoesn'tmatterwhatcircuityouhave...if,youwanttouseonlyvoltagepotentialtoseparatewaterwithnocurrentorbareminimum.
INSULATIONtomakethecellacapacitorinthetruesenseofcapacitor.
Stanshowedusingdelrintoencaseanentireinner/outertubesetup.
Ihaveseenattemptswithvandegraff's,etc..andotherhighvoltagemeanstoaccomplishpureelectrostaticseparationandnobodyhassucceededinanysignificantways.Thevoltageisleakingalloveranddustandotherstuffisattractedtothecellfromthefloor,etc...thatmeansitisnotacapacitor...itisnotholdingthatvoltagetoanyhighdegreeinthewatercellitself.Ifthatisthecase,therewillneverbeenoughvoltagefortrueelectrostaticseparation.
[...]
Stanshowedadelrinencasementaroundtheannodewithsmallopeningsatthetopandbottom.Thecathodeisinsidetheannode.Aswaterisdrawnintotheopeningatthebottomofthedelrinencasement,theONLYPLACETHEWATEREVENTOUCHESISTHEGAP.TheinnerpartoftheannodeandouterpartofthecathodeistheONLYpartwherethewatertoucheswithoutthevoltageleakingouteverywhereelse.Whatthatmeansisthattheannode/cathodetubesetreallyhasbecomeacapacitortolockinasmuchvoltageaspossiblewhereitcounts...thegapwhereyouwantthewatertosplitfromnothingmorethanpurevoltagepotential.
EvenifIhadthe100%foolproofVICcircuit,itwoulddonobodyanygoodatallhookingituptoashortcircuitedcell.
I'mnotamachinistandamnotinterestedindealingwithdelrin.Thereisaproductcalled"SUPERCORONADOPE."Itisaxylenelacquertypeofmixthatyoucanbrushontometalorwhateverandthenithardenslikeaglassandresists4000voltspermilor40,000permmthick.Ifyouhad2flat
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platesandeachwasthoroughlycoatedwith1mmeach,thatisadielectricstrengthhighenoughtoholdback80,000volts.
StanleyMeyerExplainedQuote:
Manymonthsago,IshowedafewreferencestoPeterandhehelpedmebuildsomethingathisshop...arealwatercapacitor...whatthatprojectwasisirrelevant...whatisrelevantisthatthegoalistohaveawatercellwherevoltagepotentialWILLNOTLEAK.TheprojectwasfarfromperfectedbutthisconceptisclearlyspelledoutinTayHeeHan'spatentaswell.
Meyershowsthisveryclearlywithhisdiagramofthedelrinencasement.
Delrinisn'tpracticalforanyoneunlesstheyhaveaccesstosomemachinestopprobably.Myhomebrewsolutionwastogetacanofplastidiptocoattheoutsidepositivetubeintoisolateitfromthewater.Also,supercoronadopecanbepaintedontheoutsideofthepositivetube,whichIhaveafewquartsofthisforthispurpose.
Interestingly,inthispost,another(nowdeleted)postisreferred:Quote:
SincesomuchhasbeenalreadysaidontheWFCtheonlythingIhavetoaddistomakethemsotheoutsideoftheoutertubeisisolatedoutofthewaterbathandtogroundthewaterbathjustasStanleyMeyershowstoodo,andisolatedgroundrightinthewaterbath.Butisolatingthepositivefromthewaterbathhelpskeepthevoltagefromleaking.Andthecircuitryanywayyoufindthatwillpulsethetransformershouldwork,justmakesurewhenyouhaveeverythingsetthatyouareabletoraiseandlowerthevoltageindependentlyofpulsingandfrequency.InthealternatorallMeyerhadtodowasturnavariableresistortoraiseorlowerthevoltagetotherotorfieldwinding.
So,thereareindicationsthatStanMeyeralsousedinsulationinhisWFC..
Hereitsaysthefollowing:http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf
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InoneofStan'spatentshetalkedaboutusingpolyoxymethylene(Delrin)whichhasahighdielectricconstant.HeusedDelrinontheoutsideoftheouterpipeandtheinsideoftheinnerpipetocontaintheelectronleakage.ThebarrierformedbytheconditioningcoatinghasacomparativelylesserdielectricconstantthantheDerlinmaterialthicknessused.
August20,2010
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lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Comingtothinkofthis,thepiecesofthepuzzlearestartingtodropintoplace.
Theelectricfieldisaninfiniteenergysource(Bearden,seemyreferenceddiscussionsatArticle:TheElectretEffectPESWiki)whereitnotthatinnormalelectricalcircuitselectronshavethenastyhabitofflowinginsuchadirectionthatthey"kill"thevoltageyouhavecreatedtomakeyourelectricfield.ThisiswhatBeardenhasbeentalkingaboutforyears."killingthedipole".
However,ifyoumanagetocreateanelectricfieldsuchthattheelectronsyouaremovingaroundwithitcannotreachthecircuitryyouusetocreatethefield,thentheycannotkill"thedipole",henceyougettousethefieldforfree,onlyhavingtopayforthelossesthatoccortomaintainthefield.Apparantly,theWFCwithproperinsulatedcapacitorplatescandojustthat,becausetheelectronsflowingfromonehalfreactiontottheotherstaywithinthesubstance,wherebytheneteffectisthatsomeatomshavebeenrearrangedsuchthattheyarenowhydrogenandoxygengas,insteadofwater.Theelectronshowever,staywheretheywere:inthesubstance.
Andsincetheelectronsinanelectrolysisprocessdonotleavethe"water"iftheyaremovedfromoneatom/iontotheother,theycannot"killthedipole".Asitturnsoutyoucanactuallysplitwaterwithlittlemorethanjustasparkplug,andimmediatelyburnitafterwards,bywhichitappearsenergycanactuallybe"gained",whichofcourseisactuallybeingpulledinfromthevacuum:
WaterSparkplug
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ROSCO,you'retheplugexpert,canyouverifytheseresultsundercompression?IdidusetheresistorlessNGKmotorcycleplugandsprayedwateranditdoesexplodewatermistlikeinGotoluc'svid.WouldbeinterestingtoseethiscircuitsparkingyourFirestormduplication!
Thisshouldbereallysimpletoreplicate.
August20,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Iforgottoadd,
Fortheinductorsyouneedtobuildthemtohavethesameormoreinductivereactancethanthesecondaryhadat60Hz.Thiswillensureyouhaveenoughreactancetoprotectthesecondaryfrom
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excessivecurrentsatresonance.
Thisisbecauseasmentionedearliedresonanceoccursbetweenthesecondarywindingandthecap,sowithoutchokestheresultisaneardeadshort.Measurethesecondaryinductanceandcalculateit'sinductivereactanceat60Hz.Usethatinductivereactanceandtheresonantfrequencytodeterminetheinductanceneededforthechokes.
Thedielectricmaterialneedstobeconsideredasfollows.Everyonerememberstanmentionedthatheneededtobuildtheentiresysteminagarageenvironmenttoprotectthetechnologyfrombeingblocked.Heusednoexoticpartsormaterialstoalsoprotectthetechnologyfrombeingblocked.Thedielectricneedstobesomethingwidelyavailable,andcheap.
Greatpostseveryone,Ihavereadeachandhavelearnedagratdealsofar.
August20,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay NiceanalogyLamare,butthisassumesthattheelectronbondisarigidandweaklinkI'mnotsureitis.Youcouldn'tsoeasilypullthebumperoffthecarifitcompletelysurroundingthebody...andonstrongandelasticfixings.
True,butgiventhemanyreferencesto"dielectricbreakdown"ofwater,youwillreallyhavehardtimemaintainingthisisprincipallyimpossible.Itmaytakestrongelectricfields,yes,butitisdefinatelypossible.
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Anyway,here'ssomethingelseforyoutothinkabout.Onceyouinsulateanelectrodefromthewater,thenthatinsulationonthatelectrodebecomesthedielectric.
Allthevoltageisthenacrossthisinsulation,notacrossthewater.Thewatersimplybecomesanextensionoftheuninsulatedelectrode,andtheonlydielectricbreakdownthatwilloccurwillbethatoftheinsulation(whichwillnotselfrepair).
DoyouseewhatI'mgettingathere?
Thisismoreorlesswhatsebosfatoissaying,too:
Quote:
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OriginallyPostedbysebosfato GuysInaudingotnothing,thatstepchargeeffectmeansnothing...Ialreadydonethatisveryeasyandstupid...andwontgenerateanygas...whyinsistontheoriesthatwereprovedtobewrong?
Iagaintellyou,Ialreadydidthisexperiment...Thestepchargeeffectwerethesame,howevernogascanbegenerated.
Thereissomethingcalledelectricfielddistributionthatoccurswhenyouhavetwodifferent dielectricconstantsinseries.Whereyouwillfindthebiggestelectricfieldwillbeonthesmallest valueofdielectric...
Foryoutounderstanditwell,takea10nfcapacitoranda100nfcapacitorandconnecttheminseriestoapowersupplyandmeasurethevoltageacrossthecapacitors...Youwillunderstandwhati'mtalkingabout.
Ithinkyouwillhavetokeepinmindthattheelectricfieldtravelsatthespeedoflight,300.000km/s,whichmeansithasalreadytraveled30cmwithinonepicosecond,muchfasterthanionsorevenelectronscanreact.
Innormalcircuitdesign,thesekindsofconsiderationscanbesafelyignored,butwhenyouaretalkingaboutcircuitsthatareabletoextractuseableenergyoutofthevacuumusinganelectricfield,thenthespeeddifferencesbetweentheelectricfieldandthemovementofelectrons/ionsisveryimportant,becausethedelaybetweenthe"cause"and"effect"isexactlyoneofthoselittleunderstoodwindowsofopportunitythatwearetryingtoexploit.
ThisisalsowhatBedinimoreorlesskeepsonrepeating.Oneofthesecretsfor"overunity"istousehighvoltageDCspikes.Why?Becausethenyouhaveafractionofasecondtousetheenergyprovidedbythefield,beforethechargecarriersstartworkingagainstyou.
Ipostedaboutthisbefore:Discussionre:thephysicsbehindnegativeenergysystemswithradiantspikes
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However,IdolikeBeardens"don'tkillthedipole"and"howcircuitsareactuallypowered"theories:HowAnElectricalCircuitisREALLYPoweredBeardenforDummies
"Letmeputitthisway.Everyelectricalsystemweeverbuilt,andeveryonetoday,ispoweredbyEMenergyextracteddirectlyfromtheactivevacuumbythesourcedipoleinthesystem."
Heexplainsthisconceptalsoverynicelyinsomeofthevideo'soutthere.Wheneverchargeismovingfromthe+topolesofabatteryorgenerator,acurrentflows,whichopposestheveryreasonthecurrentoccurs,whichistheelectricfieldorpotential.
So,itistheelectricfieldthatcausesthechargestomove(dowork),whilethissamemovementofcharges(current)killstheveryreasonofit'sexistence:thefield,orthepotentialonyourbatteryor
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generator.Ifyoucouldsomehowusethepotentialofanydipolewithoutkillingit,youcouldgetaninfiniteenergysource.Inotherwords:youhavetodisconnect"current"from"potential"onewayoranother.
Inthislineofthinking,thefollowingpaperbyKlausTurturismostinteresting:
http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf
Inthispaper,heshowsthattheelectricfieldemittedbyanychargecarriernotonlyisdynamic(spreadingwiththespeedoflight),butitalsocontainsenergy.Thatenergycomesfromsomewhere,whichyoumightcall"theDiracsea"orZPE,orwhatever.Bottomlineis:anychargecarriercontinuouslyconvertssomeofthis"vacuumenergy"intoaconstantstreamof"static"electricfieldenergy:
"Ontheonehandthevacuum(=thespace)permanentlysuppliesthechargewithenergy(firstparadoxaspect),whichthecharge(asthefieldsource)convertsintofieldenergyandemitsitintheshapeofafield.Ontheotherhandthevacuum(=thespace)permanentlytakesenergyawayfromthepropagatingfield,thismeans,thatspacegetsbackitsenergyfromfieldduringthepropagationofthefield.Thisindicatesthatthereshouldbesomeenergyinsidetheemptyspace,whichwenowcanunderstandasapartofthevacuumenergy."
Probablythemostimportantthingtorealiseisthattherearetwoenergyflowsinanycircuitorwire:1.theelectric(orEM)field(s)or"radiantenergy"asJohnlikestocallit.2.thecurrentchargecarriersmovingalonginsideaconductor.
TheE(M)fieldcomesforfree,it'sacontinousstreamof"vacuumenergy"beingconvertedbyanychargecarrier.
Whatwe'reafterinallelectricalfreeenergycircuitsistofindawaytoextractthis"vacuumenergy"withoutpayingthepricebykillingourdipoles.AndasfarasIunderstand,thebasictrickfordoingthatistoexploitthedifferenceinpropagationspeedoftheE(M)fieldvs.thechargecarriers.
IfyoulookattheSG,theGraytubeandthewatersparkplug,youseethatonepossibilityistoworkwithabruptswitchingofhighvoltages.So,apparantlyfastswitching(fastrise/falltimes)ofhighvoltagesoffersone"windowofopportunity"toexploitthispropagationspeeddifference.
IntheTeslaswitch,you'reworkingwithbatteries,wherethechargecarriersareionsmovinginafluid.Thesemovemuchslowerthanelectronstroughawire,whichiswhyyoucanexploitthisspeeddifferencebetweenE(M)fieldandchargecarriersatmuchlowerfrequencies(switchingspeeds)incomparisontocoils,etc.
Inaway,abatterycanbeseenasaverylongwire(asBeardenhastalkedabout).Whenyouputsomecurrent(chargecarriers)inononeside,ittakesarelativelylongtimebeforetheycomeoutontheotherside.So,wheneveryoureversethecurrentbeforethattimehaspassed,youcanusethepotential(Electricfield)withoutkillingthedipole.
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So,Ithinkthatiswhatallthiscomesdownto:anexploitationofthedifferenceinpropagationspeedoftheEMfieldvs.themovementofchargecarriers.
August20,2010
MichaelJohnNunnerley SeniorMember
JoinDate:May2008Posts:574
Keepingontopic
WellIwouldjustliketosayfirstofallthatpreventingelectrolysiswasprobablythewrongterminology,unlessyouwanttohaveabulktankofwaterandplaceelectrodesofsomesortinthetankandnotcreateelectrolysistobreakitdown.
Youarebarkingupthewrongtree,Meyerdidthisatfirstandimprovedonit,butstillcouldnotproducesufficientgastorunhisbuggy,thatranonadifferentsystemandnotoneofelectrolysis.Correction,atfirstheranhisbuggyonelectrolysis,butonlyontickoverinhisdriveway,hecouldnotrunitonrevs:foradrive.
Thatledhimtofindanotherway,andthatasIhavegoneblueinthefaceis,NOTELECTROLYSIS.Highvoltageisneeded,butyouwillnevergetittoworkinatankofwaterandyoudonotneedatankofwater,wellasareservemaybe.AhighhumiditywillbesufficientsolookmoreatHVintoahighhumidityinanonecombustiblegassuchasN2.LookuppatentsthatproducewaterbreakdownusingRF,theywork,buteventhatisnottherealanswer,butatleastwillshowthathvwillbreakdownwaterifusedinadifferentway.
IamnottalkingMWhere,thepatentthatIamreferingtousesVHFandUHFbandasapushpullharmonicresonance(145mhzand450mhz).US7,378,063B1.Thisisclosetotherightidea,sodon'twasteyourmoneyonbuildinganitemthatwillnotgiveyouwhatyouwant,wellIdon'tthinkitwill,andprobablymythoughtsdon'tcount.
August20,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Notreally.Theproblemis,youwillfindthatnoneofthesereferencesuseanythinglikeordinary, everydaytapwater.
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Ofcoursethebeautyofa'pure'waterdielectricisthatitselfrepairsoncethevoltagedropsbelowthebreakdownlevel.Butthisisallquiteirrelevantwhenwearetalkingabouteverydaywaterwhichbreaksdownatalowly1.25volts.Quitesimply,everydaywaterisabetterconductorthanitisaninsulator,soitwillnever,evermakeaverygooddielectric.
Withnormalwaterwecaneasilyachieveplasmaarcingwithsuchascarbonrods,butofcoursethis ishighcurrentplasmaelectrolysis,whichIthinkwecanruleoutasanypartoftheMeyerconcept.
Allveryinteresting,butthesamestumblingblockstendtocomeupoverandoveragain.
Ihavebeenexperimentingwithaluminumtubesforawhile,becauseinindustrialelectrolyticcapacitorstheyusealuminumandwithaluminumonecanprettyeasilycreateverythindielectricfilmsonthesurface.LastyearIstartedusingordinarytapwateraswelasdemineralisedwater(fromacarshopasnormallyusedinbatteries):YouTubecap_experiments_.avi
Afewweeksago,Iexperimentedwithtwoaluminumtubeswiththeinnertubeadiameterofabout3cmandaspacingofabout1mmbetweenthetubes.Withthese,IcouldeasilyproducegasfeedingthecentretubewithspikesusingasolidstateBedinicoil(usingthesecondaryofa12Vtransformerforhalogenlampsascoil).IcouldalsoproducegaswhenIputaseparatetubeofabout1cmdiameterinsidethosetwotubesandfeedthatwithspikes.Withthat,gaswouldalsostillbeproducedinbetweentheoutertwotubes,whileonlytheoutertubewasconnectedtothepositiveofthebattery(whichreallyisthenegativewithrespecttothespike,asisusuallydonewiththeBedinischoolgirlschematic).
Whathappenedisthatthewatergetsblurrywithwhiteflocksafterawhile,whicharemostlikelyaluminumoxide.Atthismoment,thissetupdoesnotproduceanygasanymore,probablybecausealotofionshavedissolvedinthewater.
However,itturnsoutthattwokindsofdielectricfilmscanbemadeonaluminum,asIpostedhere:Bedini,Meyer,capacitors,batteriesandtheelectreteffect.ThestuffIhaveinmywaterdefinatelyclassifiesas"arathergelatinousnature"asmentionedinthebooklinkedthere.
GiventheresultsofmyexperimentsasshownonYouTube,IwilltryandseewhathappensifIcleanthetubesetup,addnewdemineralisedwaterandsodasothattheother,desired,typeofdielectricfilmisformed.Iwillprobablyhavetocreatethefilmwithsodaandtrytoproducegaswithanewbathofwater,butwe'llseewhathappenswhenIfindthetimetodoit.IftheformingofthefilmgoesthewayIintenditto,Imaybeabletousetapwaterafterthefilmhasbecomestable.Furthermore,myparentsinlawhavesomekindoffilterthatgetsatleastthecalciumcarborateoutofthewater.Thatmaybeworthatry,too.
TodayIexperimentedabitwithasimpleplasticbottlewrappedwithaluminumtapeandasinglecentretubewithadiameterofabout1cm.WiththatIcouldproducenogas.NotwithmysolidstateBediniandnotwithacarignitioncoil.However,theignitioncoildidproducehighvoltage,butnotspikesandtheBedinicoildidproducespikesbutnotofahighvoltage.ItmaystillbethataBedinicoilwithmoremusclesdoeswork.Asalways,absenceofevidenceisnotthesameas
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evidenceofabsence...
August20,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
IwillcontinuewiththeNaudinreplicationonceIfindasuitabledielectricmaterial.
Therearemanygoodpointsbeingmadeherebyeveryoneandtheyareallneededandappreciated.
IthinkitwassebosfatothatmentionedtheelectricfielddistributioninmultidielectriccapacitorsandIhavetosaythatmakesalotofsense.Thedielectric'sareresistancesinaway.Put2resistorsinserieswitheachotherandtheresistorwiththehigherresistancewillhavethegreatervoltageacrossit.ThereismorethatneedstobelookedintohereandIcouldnotfindalotofinfo....
RememberthevideowhereStansaidinorderforthetechnologytogetoutitmustbemadeinagarageenvironmentwithnoexoticmaterialsorparts.Thismeansthatwhateverdielectricheused,itmustbesomethingwidelyavailable....
Theotherthing,Ibelievethisdielectricwasbrushed,painted,ordipped.IfyouseeStanMeyersdemotubesetsandstudythepaperworkthatwaswiththemtheyalsohadaVIC...Sothesetubesmusthavealsobeencoatedwithsomething....AnditmusthavebeensomethingclearorclosetoitbecausethetubesstilllooklikeSS.
Theworkcontinues.
August21,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay
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Lamare,checkouttheselinks:
Ihavereadthese.IthinkI'mtheonethatpostedtheseinthefirstplace
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Aluminium,justlikestainlesssteelalreadyhasaprotectiveoxidecoating,that'swhytheyarebothrelativelyinerttocorrosioninairandwaterundernormalcircumstances.
Wetelectrolyticcapacitorswereandstillareanintriguingdesignbecausedesignersmadetheanodetohavethegreatestsurfaceareapossible,andnomatterhowcomplicatedtheanodedesign,itdidnotneedacorrespondinglycomplicatedcathode.Anelectrolyticsolutionbecameanextensionofthemetalcathodecontainer.Alsotheverythin(microns)oxidelayerontheanodemadeforahighcapacitance.
Ifwearenotcarefulallwewillachieveisthefabricatingofalargeelectrolyticcapacitor.Thesciencedoesneedthinkingthrough.
Thewetelectrolyticcapacitorsdescribedabovedidgeneratesomehydrogen,butthiswasnotbydesignandwassimplyduetoleakagecurrent.AndwhatH2didevolvewasofcoursegeneratedbyeverydayelectrolysisaction.
SobyisolatingthewaterwithaninsulatorlikeNaudin,wheredoesthatleadus?
Weendupwithagoodcapacitor,butunlesstheadditionalinsulationonthecathodebreaksdown,wewon'tgetanycurrentflowing.
Naudin'ssetupisabitofamysteryandIguessitwillremainsounlesshedecidestoanswerhisemails.Maybe,justlikethemineralbuildupwecanachieveonthecathodeinhardtapwater,Naudin'sinsulationissomewhatporous.
ThethingthathasreallyintriguedmeisthereportbyJohnBedinithathehasbatteries"coldboiling"foruptomorethanhalfanhour*after*hehasshutdownthecharger.Howonearthcanthatbehappening?
Thenthere'sanalsointriguingexperimentbyMITwheretheydissectaleydenjar,acapacitor,andclearlyshowthatthe"charge"isnotonthecapacitorplates,butsomehowstoredinthedielectric:Discussionre:thephysicsbehindnegativeenergysystemswithradiantspikes
Andwehavethisalsointriguingeffectthatelectrolyticcapacitorsareabletorechargethemselvesafterhavingbeenshortcut,uptoacertainextent:SpontaneouschargingradiantlychargedcapacitorresearchgroupSpontaneouschargingradiantlychargedcapacitorresearchgroup
Theinterestingthingwiththese(standard)electrolyticcapacitorsisthattheextenttowhichtheyareabletospontaneouslyrechargethemselvescanbegreatlyextendedby"conditioning"themwith"radiantenergy".Thatis:feedthemwithhighvoltageshortdurationspikes.
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Puttingthesethingstogether,Ifirstofallconcludedthatinthese"conditioned"capacitorsthedielectriclayer,wheretheenergyisactuallystoredgiventheMITleydenjarexperiments,issomehowbeingsuperpolarized.Thatmeanssuchaverythindielectricfilmonthealuminumanodecanapparantlybepushedintohighgear,whichmeansthissuperpolarizedfilmyouwillgenerateaverystrongelectricfieldinitsvicinity.Notbecausethereisahighvoltageacrossthisdielectricfilm,butbecausethefilmisverythin.Normally,whenaelectrolyticcapacitorischarged,thisfieldisbeingnutralized,becausechargesarebeingdrawntowards/pushedawayfromthesurfaceofthisthinfilmatbothsides,untileventuallythefieldsgeneratedbythesechargesbalancesthefieldgeneratedbythedielectric.Itisbecauseofthesefieldsthatoppozeoneanotherthatthecapacityofacapacitorbecomesbiggerduetothepresenceofadielectric.
Apparantly,itispossibletodisruptthisbalancebyshortcuttingthecapacitor,afterwhichthecapacitorwillreestablishthebalancebyspontaneouslyrechargingitself.Theinterestingthing,however,isthatjustafterthisshortcutting,theonlyfieldthatispresentinthevicinityoftheelectrolyte,thewater,isthefieldgeneratedbythedielectric.Andbecausethisdielectriclayerisverythin(afewmicrometers)youwillforsometimehaveaverystrongelectricfieldinthevicinityofthedielectric,especiallyifyouhavepolarizedthedielectricusinghighvoltagespikes/pulses,becausethepolarizationofadielectricdependsontheappliedfieldstrength,notontheappliedcurrentorsomething.
Nowyoumaysaythatthehydrogenproducedintheseolddayelectrolyticcapacitorsisjustplainoldelectrolysis,butthatwouldnotexplainwhyaglowcanbeobservedwiththesethings:BoraxorBakingSodaRectifierandtheglow.:Quote:
Asmentionedearlier,thereisafaintglowassociatedwiththeseborax(orbakingsoda)rectifiersthatcanbeobservedinadarkroom.Itseemsthatmoderatelyhighvoltagesarenecessaryinordertoproducetheglow.Theglowisproducedonthealuminumplatewhenitisatthepositive(reversebias)partofthecycleandminimumcurrentisflowing.
Whywouldthesethingsglow?Coulditbethatactuallythewaterdielectricbreaksdowncausingacoronadischargebywhichhydrogenisbeingproduced,albeitverylittle,becausefirstofallthevoltagesusedarenotthathighandsecondly,thisparticularsetupusesplatesataconsiderabledistance.InmyexperimentsIcouldnotproduceasignificantamountofgaswhenanode/cathodewereplacedatadistance,butIcouldproducehydrogeneasilyusingconcentrictubes.Iknowthisdoesnotproveanything,butitonceagaindoessuggesttheremaybemoretoitthanitseems.
GiventhatBedini's"coldboiling",i.e.H2andO2generating,batteriesarebeingfedwiththesamekindofenergy,HVspikes,andwealsohavesimilar"spontaneous"recharging,albeitwithdifferentmetalsandchemicals,Iconcludedthatwearereallylookingatthesamething:athindielectricfilmisapparantlyalsoformedinsidebatteriesandthatisapparantlyalsobeingsuperpolarized.
Bringingthistogether,Iconcludedthatthismustbethekey.Theconstructionofdielectriccapacitorsandbatteriesisverysimilar,especiallyintheolddaysandwegetsimilareffects,eventhoughhydrogenproductiondoesnotalwaysoccur.
Giventhatthewatercontainedinbatteriesisfullofionsandthe"coldboiling"effectobserved
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byBediniandotherswhenthebatteriesarebeingchargedwithprettypowerfullBedinichargers,Iconcludedthatinthiscasethefieldsgeneratedbythethindielectricfilmsontheplatesisthatstrongthatsomehowelectrolysisisbeingachieved,evenafterpowerisbeingfedtothebattery.Basedonthat,Iconcludedthatthepresenceofastrongstaticelectricfieldinsidetheelectrolyteisthesolerequirementforthiskindofelectrolysistooccurandthatthathasnothingtodowithanyresonanceeffectsinthewater,asMeyersays.Imean,itjustcan'tbeifwecantrustBedini'sobservationsandIdotrustthesearerealaccurateobservations.Nowthisdoesn'tmeanthatitisimpossiblethatyoucouldalsohaveinterestingeffectsusingresonance,butifthatisthecase,ithasnothingthisparticularmechanism.
So,inmyview,itmaybemuchmoredifficulttocreatestrongpolarizeddielectricfilmswhentheanode/cathodesaresubmergedinwatercontaininglotsofions,buteventuallyallthatreallymeansitthatyouneedmoremusclestopolarizeyourdielectric,becauseyouhavetodragmoreionsaround.So,itmaytakemoreenergytoaccomplishtheeffectswewant,buttheenergyittakestofreeelectronsfromthenegativeionsinthehalfreaction,andfeedthemtotheotherhalfreactiontogetelecrolysisisexactlythesame.
So,thebadnewsisthatyouwillhavetospendconsiderablymoreefforttoseetheseeffectswithnonpurewater.Thegoodnewsisthatitisachievableanywayandwhenyousucceedincreatingselfhealingdielectricfilmsonaluminumtubesasisbeingdoneinelectrolyticcapacitorsallthetime,Iamconvincedyoucanreallygettoapointthatsuchasuperpolarizeddielectricreleasesgreatamountsofhydrogengasforwhichyouonlyhavetopaytheenergyneededtomaintainthepolarizationfield.However,eventhatenergydoesnothavetobelost,sinceyoucanreusethisenergywhen"discharging"thecapacitor,whichwillnotonlyreturnmostoftheenergy,butwillalsoenhancethedisbalanceofthefields.Thatmeansyouwillactuallygetmorehydrogen
productionifyoureusethisenergy!
AndgiventhelongtimesBedinihasreportedhisbatteriesto"coldboil"aftershuttingofthepower,Ithinkyoureallydon'thavetopaymuchintermsofenergytokeepthedielectricpolarized,especiallyifyoureuseandreapplythesameenergyoverandoveragain.
August21,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Imusthavemissedthat.
Lookingatnaudin'spageagainhestatesthewfcv1.0useddistilledwater.Theprocesswillstillworkwithdistilledwaterifthetubesarenotinsulated.Therequirementthenisthatthechargingcurrentmustbegreaterthantheleakagecurrent.
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Orinotherwordstheresistanceacrossthecapacitormustbeseveralordersgreaterthantheimpedanceofthechargingcircuit.
August21,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyFarrahDay Lamare,I'munfamiliarwiththeBedinistuff,sonotabletocomment.I'veseenthatMITvideobeforeandstillfinditsomewhatverywatchable.
Basicallywhathedoesinsofarrelevanthere,istoenergizeacoilbyconnectingittoaDCpowersourceandthensuddenlydisconnecttheminusterminal,soyougetaverysteepspikeofpositive,highvoltageatthenegativeterminalofthecoil.Hefeedsthatspiketroughadiodetoeitherabatteryoracapacitor.Thenegativeterminalofbattery/capisconnectedtothepositiveterminalofthepowersupply/coil,sinceotherwiseyouwouldhavethecoilinserieswiththebattery/capyouwanttochargeduringtheperiodsyou'renotenergizingthecoil.
Bedinicallsthesespikes"radiantenergy",whichIthinkisnothingelsethantheelectricfielditself,whichcangiveveryinterestingeffectsifthespikesarepowerfullenough.Inoneofhisvideo'sheshowsheisabletolightaneonbulbbyholdingoneterminalinhishandandtouchingtheotherterminalatthe*plastic*ofthebatterythatisbeingcharged.
However,inordertoobservethis,youneedprettypowerfulcoils.Andifyouhavethese,itappearsyoucanalsogetthis"coldboiling"ofthebatteriesbeingcharged.
August21,2010
lamare SeniorMember
JoinDate:Oct2008Posts:473
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyHMS776 Ithinkitwassebosfatothatmentionedtheelectricfielddistributioninmultidielectriccapacitors
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andIhavetosaythatmakesalotofsense.Thedielectric'sareresistancesinaway.Put2resistorsinserieswitheachotherandtheresistorwiththehigherresistancewillhavethegreatervoltageacrossit.ThereismorethatneedstobelookedintohereandIcouldnotfindalotofinfo....
RememberthevideowhereStansaidinorderforthetechnologytogetoutitmustbemadeinagarageenvironmentwithnoexoticmaterialsorparts.Thismeansthatwhateverdielectricheused,it mustbesomethingwidelyavailable....
Theotherthing,Ibelievethisdielectricwasbrushed,painted,ordipped.IfyouseeStanMeyersdemotubesetsandstudythepaperworkthatwaswiththemtheyalsohadaVIC...Sothesetubesmusthavealsobeencoatedwithsomething....AnditmusthavebeensomethingclearorclosetoitbecausethetubesstilllooklikeSS.
Ofcourse,wedonotnecessarilyhavetousethesamecomponentsMeyerused.WhileofcourseIcan'truleoutthepossibilitythattheremaybesomethinginthetheorythatallthisisachievedbysomekindofresonanceofthewater,Bedini'scoldboilingbatteriesclearlyshowthatitispossibletoproducehydrogeneven*after*thepowersupplyhasbeenshutoffwithoutanythingevenclosetoresonatingthewater.
Ifitiscorrectthatelectrolysisofwatercanbeachievedbyapplyingaverstrongelectricfieldcausingadielectricbreakdowneffectinthewater,whichwouldmakeitpossibleforthecurrentrequiredforelectrolysistotakeplacetoflowinthewateritself,thenallweneedtodoiscreateaverystrongelectricfieldinthewater,eventhoughthatmaybehardtodowithnormaltapwater,becausealltheionsintherehavethenastyhabbitofoppozinganyexternallyappliedelectricfield,especiallywhentwoconductionterminalplatesarethemeansbywhichyoucreatethefield.
Nowifyouwouldputaninsulatinglayerononeoftheterminalsandifindeedthedifferentlayerscanbeconsideredascapacitorsinseries,thenitisclearthatyouwouldeitherneedveryhighvoltagesorabigcapacitanceacrossthedielectriclayer.
Thatwouldmeanthatyouwouldneedaverythinlayerofdielectric.However,thatwouldmeanthedielectricwouldeasilybreakdownandyougettopayfortheleakagecurrentsgoingtroughit.So,wewouldhavetofindawaytooptimizethethicknessofthedielectriclayer,suchthatitisthinenoughtocreateabigcapacitance,butthickenoughtowithstandthevoltagesweintendtouse.
Perhapstheeasiestwaytodothat,istousealuminumforyouranodeandcreateadielectriclayerelectrolytically,asisdoneintheproductionofelectrolyticcapacitors.Whenyougrowthelayer,yousimplyapply120%ofthevoltageyouintendtouse,andthenyouafilmwithathicknessthatisaboutoptimal.
Itappearsthatconditioninganaluminumtubethatwaytobeusedasanodeinabathwithasodasolutionwoulddojustthat.So,itmaybethatMeyerusedSSandfoundahardwaytocreateadielectriclayeronthose,itseemstomewemightjustaswelltrythesamethingtheeasyway....
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August21,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
Idon'tthinktheelectricfielddistributionisgoingtobeaproblem.JustforexamplesaywecoatthetubeswithadielectricwhichHasadielectricconstantof5andweusetapwaterwithadielectricconstantof60.Wecouldusebasicmathtocalculatethetotalpercentageofeachdielectricandusethattocalculatethevoltageeachonewouldhave.
Allthatthismeansisthelowerthedielectricconstantofthedielectriccoatingthehigherthevoltagewillneedtobetogetthedesiredeffect.WithalowdielectricconstantwehavelesspolarizationwhichmeansonlypartofthevoltagewillbeappliedtothewaterTherestofthevoltageisheldbackbecauseofthepoorpolarization(lowdielectricconstant).
ThismeansreplicationcanstillbesuccessfulwithalowdielectricConstantcoating,theappliedvoltagewilljusthavetobehigher.
SowhilenaudinmayhavehadasuccessfulreplicationtheactualvoltageEffectingthewatercouldhavebeenmanytimeslowerthanthecapacitor'sVoltage.HopefullyIexplainedthatwellenoughforeveryonetounderstand.
August22,2010
HMS776 SeniorMember
JoinDate:Mar2009Posts:125
AfterdoingresearchoncommondielectricmaterialsIhavehadnoluckfindinganywithahighdielectricconstant.However,Ihavefoundtherearemorethingstoconsider.........
Quote:
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"Intermsofcomponentreactance,Inductorsshouldalwaysbelargerthancapacitorinordertominimizeamprestrictiontoenhance"voltageDeflection"StanMeyer,TBpage710
Thistellsusthatwemustfindamiddleground.
Thecapacitivereactancemustbesmallerthantheinductivereactanceofthechokesatresonance.Thethreethingsthateffectcapacitanceare:Areaofplates,Distancebetweenplates,andDielectricconstantofdielectric.
StanmentionedthecapacitorsizeoftheWFCcapacitorintheTechBrief.Itis3"tall.Innerelectrodeis.5"diameter.OuterelectrodeIDis.75"whichleavesagapof1/8".
Soweknowthesizeofthecapacitoranddistancebetweentheplates,theonlythingwecanchangeisthedielectricconstantofthedielectriccoating.
Ifthedielectricconstantofthecoatingistoohighourcapacitancewillbeverylarge,makingtheneedforinductorswhichalsoareverylarge.Therequirementofinductorsize,iftoolargecancauseallsortsofproblems.First,thecorewillhavetobemadelarger,andtheinductorswillhavetohavetohavemoreturns,whichmeansthevoltagewillbehigher,sogreaterstepsmustbetakentoensurecorrectisolationbetweenturns...Theaddedcapacitorandinductorsizealsoincreasesthetimeittakestochargethecapacitor.
WhatIfoundearlyonwithStanMeyerscircuitisthatyoucannothaveeverything.Youhavetogiveupsomegainsinordertogetothers.Youhavetofindamiddleground.AndIthinkthedielectriccoatingisnoexceptionhere.
Further,largedielelctricconstantmaterialsareoftenexotic.Theyareexpensiveandarenotreadilyavailable.Stansaidinordertoprotectthistechnologyithadtobemadeinagargaeenvironment,sothatmeansthecoatinghadtobesomethingcheapandreadilyavailable.
Ofthemostcommondielectricmat