Pro: Then whom do you mean then (Soc: Certain clever people who also have much to say about natural phenomena , who say that pleasures do not exist at all .. Pro: How could that be (Sochey say that those which Philebus and his circle now call pleasures , are all run-aways from pain . c . Pro: Then , do you recommend that we should be persuaded by their counsel , O Socrates , or what ? , Soc: No but we should employ them , just as if they were inspired seers , who are able to divine the truth ’ not by Art , but by an innate hostility in their nature that is not altogether ignoble , that makes them hate the power of pleasure , and also makes them habitually consider that it is not in any way wholesome , so that this very attractiveness is beguilement/trickery herself , but not pleasure . Thus on the one hand , , ’ you should use them in this way , and even further by considering their other expressions of hostility . d, . On the other hand , after that you shall learn which pleasures do indeed appear to be true to me , in order that we may compare her power from both points of view and proceed to consider our decision . .Pro: Rightly spoken . ( Soc: Surely then , let us follow closely behind in the tracks of their hostility/dislike , just as if they wereour allies in war . For I believe that such an argument as theirs would begin from some Higher Source , and ask if we wished to see The Nature of any Genus at all , such as The Nature of Hardness , wouldwe thus be more likely to bear it in mind by looking at the hardest things or at the least hard things ? Surely then you must now reply to these hostile people , O Protarchus , just as if you were replying to me . e Pro: Then by all means I say to them that we should look into those that are hard in the highest degree . .Soc: And is it not the case that if we wished to see whatever Nature The Genus of pleasure has , then we must not look into the least of pleasures but into those that are said to be the most extreme and intense .Pro: Everyone would fall in step with this that you are now saying .

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(to join in the dance) .Soc: Take notice then , are pleasures that are closest at hand and the greatest , which we have often said , those that are indeed connected with the body ; Pro: How could this not be the case ? Soc: So in that case , do they become even greater in those that are sick , or in those that are Healthy ? But let us be cautious not to answer hastily and somehow take a false step . For perhaps we could equally say that they are greater in those that are Healthy . bPro: That is indeed likely . ( .)Soc: What are you saying ? Are not these pleasures those that are overreaching , which would also produce ' ; the greatest desires ?Pro: This is true . .)Soc: But are not those who suffer fevers and in such-like illnesses because of the habits of the body , ’ feel/undergo thirst and cold in a greater degree , and do they not feel a greater loss/need , followed by ’ a greater pleasure when their need/loss has been refilled ? Shall we say that this is true or not ? Pro: Now that you have said it , it entirely appears to be the case . c Soc: Then what ? Would we appear to be right in saying that if someone wished to see/know the greatest pleasures , then they must not proceed to consider those that are Healthy , but go to those that are sick ? , ’See then , that I am not leading you to bear in mind that I am asking if those who are very ill have more pleasures than those who are Healthy, but rather think of me as searching for the Magnitude of pleasure , ’ , and where the greatest intensity of such feelings occurs at that time . For we say that we must necessarily . Intellectually see whatever nature pleasure possesses and what those who altogether deny her existence d ’ have to say . Pro: In that case , I am following close to your account .

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Soc: 28 Perhaps you will show this no less clearly , O Protarchos . For answer the following question : Do you see greater pleasures -I do not mean those that are greater in number , but those that are surpassing , in intensity and degree- in the overbearing life or in the Soundminded Life ? But offer up your mind 'before you speak . .Pro: But I do understand what you mean , and I see that there is a great difference . For on the one hand , ’ , I think that the proverbial saying always restrains the Soundminded ,which prescribes “Nothing excessive”.“” :But on the other hand , excessive pleasure never restrains those that are unsound of mind and hubristic esince they are possessed by madness which makes them scandalously notorious . . Soc: Well said . And if that is indeed so , then it is clear that the greatest pleasures and the greatest pains . 'originate in some impoverished condition of soul and body , but not in a Virtuous One . , ’Pro: That is entirely the case . . Soc: Is it not so then , that we must choose some of these pleasures to consider what there is about them that made us say that they are the greatest .Pro: Necessarily . Soc: Consider then in what way these pleasures are related to the following sicknesses . . Pro: Which ones? (Soc: Deformed sicknesses without any grace , concerning which we said our hostile allies utterly despise . Pro: Which pleasures? (Soc: Such as the relief of itching by rubbing and the like , since no other remedy is required . For in The Name of The Gods , what then shall we say is this feeling that we experience at this time ? ;Is it pleasure or is it pain ? Pro: This mixture , O Socrates , may likely turn out to be some vile thing indeed . ' .

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Is it really ? Was Socrates acting in a vile or evil way by rubbing his ankles when the Eleven released him from their chains before he was completely released from life , and which final release , he was graciously willing to accept ?

Soc: Surely then on the one hand , I certainly did not introduce this question for the sake of Philebos . b For on the other hand , without these sicknesses , O Protarchus , and those pleasures that follow them , ’ , we would not be able to look them over , nor would we even be able to distinguish that which , we are now seeking . . Pro: Is it not the case then , that we must go against those that are akin/related to these pains/pleasures ? .Soc: Do you mean those that are mixed in common ? Pro: By all means . ( Soc: Now then on the one hand , the mixtures related to the body (1) exist in bodies themselves , ,whereas on the other hand those related to the soul Herself (2) exist in The Soul , then in turn c ''we shall discover the mixture (3) of both pleasure and pains of both the soul and of the body , and these are alternately called at one time pleasure , but at another time pain . Pro: How ? (Soc: Whenever anyone in the process of Restoration or dissolution experiences opposite feelings at the same time , then at such times when feeling cold they are getting warm and sometimes when feeling hot they are getting cool , I think , they seek to have the one , and on the other hand , to be released/rid ’ from the other . then "the mixing of the bitter with the sweet" as the saying goes , by being conjoined , Gorgias465 , Phaedo72]with the difficulty of getting rid of being overcome by the one , produces a discomforting-irritation , and dlater on , it produces a systemic ferocity (as if being transformed into a wolf/predator) . .Pro: What you are now saying is so true . ' Soc: Is it not the case then , that on the one hand , mixtures such as these sometimes consist of equal parts

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of both pain and pleasure , while on the other hand , they sometimes consist of more of one than the other ? 'Pro: How could this not be the case ?( Soc: Surely then on the one hand , take the case (1) when the mixtures of pleasure have become full of pain -in the same cases of itching or of irritation that we mentioned just now- whenever the seething and the inflammation is internal , and cannot be reached by any rubbing or scratching , and thus only dissipate ’ the external ones , then at that time , by applying heat or cold as the case may be to these irritations they are sometimes transformed from a state of wretchedness to that of immeasurable pleasure , then at eother times the opposition between the internal and the external condition produces a mixture of both pain and pleasure , to whichever condition they happen to be inclined , thus either causing the combinations , to dissipate/dissolve by force , or the separations to commingle by force , so that a similar violent condition takes place in regards to the pains and the pleasures . Pro: Most true .( Soc: Then in turn in all cases such as these , on the one hand , whenever pleasure prevails in the mixture , , the small admixture of pain , irritates and produces a mild discomfort , whereas in turn on the other hand , ’the superabundant amount of pleasure , wholly overwhelms them and sometimes causes them to leap for joy , , and also drives them completely out of their mind with all sorts of colors and every kind of shape/form and all sorts of influences and becomes enraged with mindless ravings ? ' Pro: 47b Most certainly indeed . ( Soc: And , O companion , it makes them say about themselves and others about them , that they are as if about to die with delight in these pleasures , and surely then , by as much as they may happen to be more uncorrected and more mindless , by that much more do they always in every way pursue these pleasures , and so they call these pleasures the greatest , and in their estimation that they are

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the most blessed who always live entirely in them . 'Pro: The circumstances you have thoroughly described , O Socrates , entirely coincide with the way c , , the majority of human-beings believe .Soc: That is indeed the case concerning the mixed pleasures of the body itself which arise in common with the internal and external sensations . But in the case (3) of those in which the soul and the body contribute ’ opposite sensations , so that both go into a single mixture at the same time , both pain with pleasure and ’ pleasure with pain , then on the one hand , in these conditions which we distinguished beforehand , that whenever they become empty they desire to be filled and on the one hand they rejoice in their expectation whereas they suffer since they are empty . But at that time we did not present them as evidence , but now we propose that in all these innumerably plentiful conditions concerning the opposition of the soul dwith the body , that there is but one mixture of both pain and pleasure that comes to be produced . . Pro: I suspect that you are quite right to say so . (.)

Soc: 29 So then the one mixture of both pain and pleasure still remains to be considered by us . Pro: Which one do you mean ( ? Soc: The one mixture which , we often said the soul grasps Herself by Herself (2) . Pro: Exactly what then , did we say about this mixture ? ( Soc: Do you not suppose that wrath and fear , yearning and mourning , jealousy/envy and ill-will , e' Love and such-like emotions , are themselves certain pains that belong to the soul herself ? Pro: At least I do . (Soc: Is it not so then , that we shall find them full of unmanageable pleasures ? Or must I remind you that , "by as hard as it is to provoke to anger those however much-mindful , ' , by so much more is it also sweeter than honey from the comb" The EpicsIliad XVIII 109

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and of pains being mixed together with pleasures and of lamentations and of yearnings ?

love-like LOVE emotions

wrath yearning ill-will envy mourning fear enjoyment of the misfortunes of others vexation at the good fortune enjoyed by others

longing for that which they do not have grief or sorrow for that which they do not have

vengeful retribution dread of retribution

Pro: No , for these resulting passions do indeed occur in this way and not otherwise . , ’Soc: And you most certainly also remember seeing those who enjoy weeping during Tragic spectacles ? Pro: How could I not ? (' Soc: But are you also aware about the disposition of our soul during the Comic spectacles , that there arises ’’’a mixture of both pleasure and pain while viewing these ? Pro: I do not entirely understand . ( Soc: For it is not at all easy , O Protarchos , to always comprehend such an experience in this condition .b , , Pro: As far as I am concerned , it is not likely to be easy .’ . Soc: Then let us take it under consideration by as much more as it is more obscure ; and in order that we can more easily understand what kind of mixture of pain and pleasure there is in those other cases .’Pro: Would you please explain this . ( Soc: Would you say that the word ill-will which we said just now is a certain pain of the soul , or not ? Pro: Just so . ( Soc: But surely the malicious plainly appear to be taking pleasure in the misfortunes of their neighbors . Pro: c Very much so indeed . ( Soc: Certainly then , ignorance is bad and that which we call habitual lack of sense . . Pro: Certainly , what then ? (

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Soc: Then do you see from these examples what the nature of ridicule has to be ? .Pro: Do tell . ( Soc: Surely then , on the one hand , ridicule is primarily a particular impoverished condition , a vice which is given its name by a particular habit , then in turn , on the other hand , the opposite of every : ’ impoverished condition , to every vice , is The Condition which Comprehends/Possesses/Keeps/Maintains the Proverb written in The Delphic Oracle . .Pro: Do you mean the one that says ‘Know Yourself ’ , O Socrates ? ""Soc: Yes I do . But the opposite to that inscription would clearly be -in the language of the inscription- dthat of ‘know yourself in no way at all’ .Pro: Certainly , what then ? (Soc: Then try , O Protarchus , to cut this statement itself into three .Pro: In what way do you mean ? For I am unable to do so .( Soc: Then do you mean , that it is now necessary for me to make this division ? Pro: I do say so , and I do indeed need for you to continue with the account .Soc: Take notice then , must not the condition of those who are ignorant of themselves necessarily happen according to each one of these three ways ? Pro: How ( Soc: First on the one hand regarding Wealth , they think they are more prosperous than they actually are .ePro: Many indeed are so possessed by such a condition . Soc: On the other hand , even more believe that they are taller and more beautiful than they are , and the greater the difference there is in all things regarding the body , the farther they are from their True Essential-Being .Pro: Entirely so indeed . (.) Soc: And it appears that there many more indeed , who completely miss the mark , in regard to the qualities in their souls , by believing themselves to be better in regards to Virtue , when that is not the case .

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Pro: Very much so . (Soc: Accordingly then , in regard to the Virtues , is not Wisdom , the one to which the multitude ''altogether lay claim to , by being filled full of quarreling and conceitful-wisdom , that is false ?Pro: How could it not be ? (' Soc: Surely then , one who would name every condition such as this vicious would name them rightly . Pro: Very much so indeed . ( Soc: Now then , O Protarchus , one must divide this condition even further in two , if we care to look into childish envy to see its absurd mixture of pleasure and pain . "How then shall we cut it in two ? ", you ask ? (All of those persons who ignorantly believe in this false conceit about themselves , b just as the rest of mankind , must also most necessarily , fall into one of the two classes : either with those who are strong and powerful , then as I believe , with those who are weak and powerless .Pro: Necessarily . Soc: So then divide in this way , and on the one hand , as many of those who have fallen with the weak 'and powerless are unable to defend themselves from such ridicule , it may be truly said that they areopen to ridicule : But on the other hand , those who are powerful and able to avenge themselves c you will give account of these people most correctly calling them -to yourself- severe , fearful and hateful .For the ignorance , on the on hand , of those who are severe is both hateful and base - for it is hurtful both to her own neighbors and as many as give way to her ; on the other hand , the ignorance of the weak 'among us has obtained by lot both in disposition and nature the ignorance that is ridiculous . 3 types of false-conceit , 2 types of fate with power-ignorance-w/o power appear severe ridiculous and are hateful and fearful ridiculous since they are

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harmful-malicious weak-harmless Tragical (Eagles - Doves) Comical

pain : pleasure : : ill-will : ridicule Pro: You speak most correctly . But as for the mixture of pleasures and pains in these emotions , it is not yet clear to me . Soc: Accordingly then , you must first grasp the power of ill-will/malice . Pro: Please just show me . (Soc: Is ill-will to some degree an unjust pain and pleasure ?d Pro: This is necessarily the case . (Soc: Is it not the case , on the one hand , that it is neither unjust nor malicious to feel pleasure’when it concerns the misfortunes of our enemies ? Pro: How could it ? ( Soc: But on the other hand , is it not very unjust/wrong not to feel pain , but to feel pleasure , ’whenever we see the misfortunes of our friends ? Pro: How could it not be unjust ? (’Soc: Did we not say that ignorance was bad for every one (Rep335b) ? Pro: Rightly so . (Soc: Then let us now go through the false conceit of our friends in regards to their make-believe wisdome and their male-believe beauty and as many as we just now described as belonging in three classes ; the onein which they are subject to ridicule because they are weak , then the other one in which they are hateful’ because they are powerful . Shall we affirm or shall we not affirm , as I said just now , that whenever our friends possess this certain condition , they are harmless , but are subject to the ridicule of others ? Pro: By all means indeed . ( Soc: But did we not agree that the very substance of ignorance itself is indeed vicious/bad ?' Pro: Very much so indeed ! ( Soc: Then do we feel pleasure or do we feel pain whenever we laugh at this condition ?'

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Pro: It is clear that we feel pleasure . Soc: But did we not say ill-will was the source of this ‘taking pleasure in the misfortunes of our friends’ ?Pro: Necessarily . Soc: Accordingly then , our account declares that by laughing at the ridiculous misfortunes of our friends , we in turn mix together pleasure with pain , by mixing pleasure with ill-will : For it was agreed long ago by us , that the ill-will brings about the suffering of the soul , whereas pleasure brings about the laughter , although these two conditions come about at the same time in this soul . Pro: This is true . ( Soc: Surely then , the account now reveals to us that in Funeral-songs as well as in both the Tragedies band Comedies , not merely on the Dramatic stage but also in all of life's tragedies and comedies and hence in countless other ways , that pain is mixed together at the same time with pleasure .Pro: It is not possible not to agree with this , O Socrates , even if there is someone most eager to maintain the opposite case . Soc: 30 We certainly regard anger , yearning , sorrow , fear , love , jealousy , ill-will and all such passions , which we said we would find in those mixed feelings that we have now mentioned often ,cor did we not ; Pro: Yes we did . ( Soc: Then do we understand that we have just now thoroughly discussed all that is equally applicable to sorrow and ill-will and anger . Pro: How could we not understand ? (Soc: Is it not the case then that there are yet many cases remaining ?Pro: Very many indeed (Soc: Why then do you suppose that I most thoroughly demonstrated to you the mixture of pain and pleasure 'in Comedy ? Was it not for the sake of convincing you , that it is indeed easy to show the mixture

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d 'in fear and in love and in the others . Thus , by having grasped this model and made it your own , it would release me from having to keep discussing the account at length in the case of those passions any longer . ’Then simply grasp this ; in the case of the feelings/passions of both body without soul , and soul 'without body , and of the soul and body in common with one another , that they are filled-full of pleasures 'mixed together with pains . Now then tell me , will you either release me or make me stay till midnight ?But I believe that in proposing a few words to you I can bring about my release For I am willing to give you you an account of all these matters tomorrow , but now I wish to set sail towards the remaining parts ethat we need for the decision which Philebus demands ..Pro: Well said , O Socrates , just discuss for us as many of the remaining parts in any way you please . ’

Soc: 31 Surely then after the mixed pleasures ,according a certain natural necessity , we shall now in turn , enter into The Realm of The Unmixed Pleasures .’Pro: Most elegantly spoken .(' .)Soc: Surely then I will alter our course and attempt to point Them out . For , I am not in the least degreepersuaded by those who say that all pleasures are the cessation of pain , but just as I said , that I use them’as witnesses that some pleasures appear to exist , but do not exist in any Substantial/Real/Essential way , ’ and others which at the same time appear great and plentiful , but they are completely jumbled-up together’with both pains and the cessation from pains brought about by the greatest distressful troubles/miseries that are related to both the body and the soul .

[ Consider this account on fables that is unfolded in Taylors' notes on The Phaedrus (Prometheus Trust) as delivered to us by Proclus in his Commentary on The Republic ; since at the present time this account that we are following is also concerned with The True vs. the false :

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“ 7 (see page 354 , line 243b) From hence it is evident that the narration of the "rape of Helen" and of the Trojan War , is entirely mythological , concealing certain Divine Truths under the symbols of fable . But as this account of Stesichorus , and the fable of The Iliad , is beautifully explained by Proclus on Plato's Republic p.393 , I shall present the reader with the following epitomized translation of his comment .

“ Stesichorus , who considered the whole fable of Helen as a true narration , who approved the consequent transactions , and established his poetry accordingly , with great propriety , suffered the punishment of his folly , that is , ignorance : But at length , through the assistance of Music , he is said to have acknowledged his error ; and thus , through understanding the Mysteries concerning Helen and the Trojan War , to have recovered his sight . But Homer is said to have been blind , not on account of his ignorance of these Mysteries , as Stesichorus , but through a more perfect habit of soul , that is , by separating himself from sensible beauty , establishing his Intelligence Above all apparent harmony , and Extending The Intellect of his soul to Unapparent and True Harmony . Hence he is said to have been blind , because Divine Beauty cannot be laid hold of by corporeal eyes . On this account , fables bordering upon Tragedy , represent Homer as "deprived of sight" , on account of his accusation of Helen . But fables , in my opinion , intend to signify by Helen ; all the beauty subsisting about generation , for which , there is a Perpetual Battle of souls , till the more intellectual , having ravished , the more irrational forms of life , return to that place , from which , they originally came . But , according to some , the period of their circulation about sensible forms consists of ten thousand years , since a thousand years produce one circuit as of one year . For nine years therefore , that is , nine thousand years , souls revolve about generation ; but in the tenth , having vanquished , all the barbaric tumult , the are said to return to their paternal habitations ." JFB ] Pro: Then which True Ones in turn , O Socrates , can one conceive by understanding them correctly ? 51b ’ ' Soc: Those concerned with those that are called beautiful colors and beautiful figures/shapes (12e) andmost of those concerned with odors and sounds and as many as we feel when they are perceived , yet we do not feel a deficiency when they are not perceived and they are also painless when they fill the senses by bestowing a sweet pleasure that is purified of pain . . Pro: Then again we say , what do you mean by this , O Socrates ? Soc: Then on the one hand , that which I say is not at all immediately clear , but one must certainly tryto make it clear . For now when I try to express The Beauty of Figure , it is not as the many would think c such as the beauty belonging to living creatures or some paintings of nature , but I mean a Certain ' Straightness and a Certain Roundness , says the proposition , and surely then out of These Models arise such instruments as compasses and levels and straight-edges and rulers and squares , if you understand me .For in regard to These Models , I say that they are not particularly beautiful, just like other things ,

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but They Are Always/Absolutely Beautiful and Contain/Comprehend certain appropriate pleasures that' naturally arise in accordance to Themselves , and are in no way comparable to those pleasures of rubbing . d'Surely then there are also colors that possess beauty and pleasures of this kind . Then , do we understand , or what ?'Pro: I am trying to understand , O Socrates , but you should also try to make your meaning even clearer . Soc: Surely then I mean those Sounds that are clear/smooth and distinct/radiant , such as those that are are send forth a single pure tuneful note , not in regard to other sounds , but are beautiful themselves ’according to themselves , and there are naturally appropriate pleasures that accompany those sounds . ' , . Pro: Yes , for this is thus also the case . (Soc: Then on the one hand in the case of pleasures of Scents , although they are of a less Divine genus ;eyet on the other hand , since they have no necessary pain mixed in with them , then no matter where or in whatever way this pure pleasure happens to arise in us , I place this whole genus as the counterpart to' the former ones . But these are the two species of pleasure of which we were speaking , if you understand . 'Pro: I understand . (Soc: Now then , let us further add to these , the pleasures of Learning , if indeed they appear to us from the start not to contain hunger pangs for learning , nor to suffer hunger pangs because of learning . Pro: Then in this case , I thoroughly agree . (' Soc: What then ? What If we become full of learning , but later on we lose it because of forgetfulness ,do you see any suffering caused by losing them ? Pro: Not indeed by any natural cause , but perhaps through some reasoning about the experience , ’ as when anyone who has been deprived of learning is miserable because of the need for it . b

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Soc: Yes most certainly indeed , O blessed one , except that we are at the present time looking over the physical feelings themselves apart from reasoning . Pro: Accordingly then what you say is true , that on every occasion that regards learning , the forgetfulness comes into existence in us separate/apart from pain . Soc: Now then one must say that these pleasures of Learning are both unmixed with pain and in no way belong to the majority of mankind , but only belong to a very few individuals . Pro: For how could one not say so ?

THE MOST DIVINE Of Pure Learning

Of Seeing Of Hearing Pure Form and Color Pure Sounds

Of Smelling Sweet Scents

Soc: 32 Is it not the case then that now that we have in Due Measure distinguished apart both the Purecpleasures and those that may quite correctly be called impure , then let us add the proposition that on the one hand , the intense pleasures are those without Measure , but on the other hand those of the opposite kindsince they are not intense are in within Measure . And furthermore , those pleasures that are receptive of greatness and intensity , yet often or seldom turn out to be either great or intense , we shall assign to the Genus of The Unlimited and those are indeed more or less borne throughout the body and the soul ,but Those Pleasures that remain unreceptive to such things , we shall assign to the Genus of those that are dwithin Measure (The Limited) . Pro: Most correctly do you speak , O Socrates. (Soc: Now then , after considering these pleasures this must still be considered regarding them .Pro: What is it ?(Soc: What must necessarily be affirmed to be related to Truth ? Whether The Pure and Incomposite

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or both the intense and plentiful or both the great and the sufficient ? Pro: What in the world do you intend , O Socrates , by asking that question ?'Soc: That not one aspect , O Protarchus , should be left behind in testing both pleasure and knowledge , 52e if in each case one of them remains Pure , while another one is not pure , in order that each one may’'proceed to the test for Purity and that the ensuing proof be produced easily for you me and everyone else . Pro: Most correctly . (Soc: Come along then , let us consider in this way , those genera that we call Pure in regards to all of them . Let us first select any one of them , then let us examine it . Pro: Which one shall we select then ? ( Soc: In the first place , let us examine The Genus of White [Color] , if you so desire . Pro: By all means .( Soc: Therefore , in what way does Purity or any Purity of Whiteness exist for us ?Does it exist in both the greatest and most numerous or is it in the most supreme genera , within which there exists not even a trace of any other color at all ?Pro: Clearly that which is incomposite in the highest degree . (Soc: Rightly so . Shall we not then maintain that this White is The Truest and at the same time , 'It is surely The Most Beautiful of all those that are white , O Protarchus , but not the most numerous b ’nor the greatest ?Pro: Most True indeed .(Soc: Accordingly then , if we declare that a small amount of Pure White is whiter and at the same timemore beautiful and more true than a great amount of mixed white , we shall speak altogether correctly .Pro: Most correctly indeed then . Soc: What then ? Surely we have no need for many such examples in our account concerning pleasure , For it was enough for us to grasp at once , that accordingly every pleasure however small or infrequent ,

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’ if freed of pain will be Sweeter and Truer and more Beautiful than the impure however great or numerous . ’Pro: Exceedingly so then , and your paradigmatical example is truly sufficient . Soc: What then about the following ? Accordingly then , have we not heard it said about pleasure that it is always in a process of generation , and that there is no absolute state of essential pleasure ? c For surely there are in turn certain accomplished ministers who have put their hands to the work of revealing this account to us ; and to whom we should be grateful (Meno 81). Pro: What is it then ?( Soc: I will thoroughly explain this account itself to you by asking these questions , O friend Protarchos .d'. Pro: Please explain and simply ask .

Soc : 33 Surely then there are two certain states of Being ; The One Abides Itself according to Itself ,'and The Other , is always longing for The One .Pro: How is this so and to which ones are you referring ? (Soc: The One is Always Naturally/Innately marked by The Most Noble Dignity , whereas The Other one is always in need . ' Pro: Please explain even yet more clearly ! (' Soc: Surely we have beheld beloved youths that are beautiful and good and at the same time their virile lovers . Pro: Very much so indeed . ( Soc: Now then see if there is another pair like these two in all such relations that we say there are . e’ ' Pro: Must I ask still a third time ? Please make more clear , O Socrates , whatever it is that you mean . ' Soc: It is in no way whatsoever intricate , O Protarchus ; but the account is being playful with us , and’so it says that on the one hand The Real Beings/Reality , Exist(s) Eternally for the sake of The Other ,

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'’ ,but on the other hand The Other which exists for the sake of the care of The One in every possible way , ' will perpetually exist in a state of becoming . Pro: I find that understanding your meaning is difficult , even after much repetition . Soc: Perhaps then , O youth , we may understand much better as the account proceeds .'Pro: Why should we not ? ( Soc: Surely then , let us take the following two other examples . Pro: Which ones ? ( Soc: On the one hand , One is everything altogether that is in the process of generation , and on the other hand , The Other One is The Essential-Being . Pro: I accept these two examples of yours ; The Essential Being and the process of generation .Soc: Most correctly . Therefore which one of these two exists for the sake of the other ? Shall we claim that generation exists for the sake of Essential Being or that Essential Being exists for the sake of generation ?Pro: Are you now inquiring if that which is called Essential Being is that which it is ,’for the sake of generation ? Soc: Manifestly . (Pro: For the sake of The Gods , why then do you keep asking me such questions ?b’"Tell me , O Protarchus , does shipbuilding exists for the sake of ships or rather'do you say that ships exist for the sake of shipbuilding ? " And all such questions ? 'Soc: This is the very thing I ask , O Protarchus .’Pro: Well then why do you not answer yourself , O Socrates ? Soc: There is no reason at all why not ; nevertheless you should participate of the discussion .Pro: By all means then (Soc: Surely then , I say that on the one hand , both all medications and instruments and in general call materials are provided for the sake of generation/production , but on the other hand , every case of

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generation comes to be for the sake of a certain [Health/Prosperity] other kind of Essential Being , and furthermore generation/production altogether comes into existence for the sake of Essential Being in every case . Pro: That is truly the clearest yet . ( Soc: Is it not indeed the case then , that pleasure , if indeed it is in the process of generation , then it would necessarily be generated for the sake of a certain kind of Essential Being .' Pro: Certainly , what then ? (Soc: Then most certainly , That for the sake of which anything is generated , would always be generated’for the sake of That which is in That Portion which Partakes of THE GOOD . Whereas that which is generated for the sake of anything else , O best friend , must always be assigned to the other portion .

THE GOOD (1) That for the sake of which The Final Paradigmatic Cause Formal Cause

Efficient Cause (2) That according to which Instrumental Cause (3) That in view of which Cause (4) That by means of which (5) That through which Material Cause Essential-Being (6) that in which Unblemished/Faultless Roundness Itself Compasses Accomplished The Arts Straightness Itself Fire Straight Edges Ministers Whiteness Itself Air Rulers Philosophers Dialectics The Beloved Earth Squares Health Water Medications Wealth Surgical Tools artisans Not in a potential state of becoming But in a State of Perfection The Offspring of THE GOOD

Pro: 54d Most necessarily . (Soc: Notice then , if indeed pleasure is in a process of generation , then shall we be correct by assigning

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’pleasure itself into the other portion than That of THE GOOD ?Pro: Most correct then . (Soc: Is it not the case then that the very thing which I said from the beginning about this account , that we should be grateful , to the one who revealed the doctrine concerning pleasure , that on the one hand it is in a process of generation , and that on the other hand , there can never be in any way whatsoever ’essential pleasure itself . For it is clear that this severe person would laugh at those who say that the good of pleasure exists .Pro: Very much so indeed .( Soc: And such a person will certainly laugh at those who find their perfection in each one of the processeseof generation .Pro: Then please tell us , in what manner and whom do you mean ? (Soc: As many of those who having dismissed their hunger or thirst or any such deficiencies , by satisfying such processes of generation , continue to take delight in the process of generation just as if it were "the essence of pleasure herself" , and they say that they would not accept life without being eitherthirsty and hungry and all the other feelings , or so they say , if they could not experience all the feelings which follow after any of these deficiencies .Pro: This is very likely to be the case .( Soc: Is it not so then , that everyone would indeed say that opposite process of coming to be is that ofbeing destroyed ?Pro: Necessarily .( Soc: Therefore , anyone who chose/preferred this life would surely choose destruction and generation , but' '’they would not select That Third Life ; such a Life wherein there was neither joy nor pain , but there was , 'The Purest Mindfulness possible indeed !

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The Recognition Pro: It appears , O Socrates , that a remarkable irrationality arises as the result , if we dare to postulate pleasure as a good .

Every Good is Essential . Mind is Essential , Therefore , Mind is Good .Nothing Essential is lost if there were no pleasure .

Therefore , pleasure is a non-essential by-product that follows in the wake of Goodness .

Soc: Remarkable indeed , especially after we make the following statement .Pro: In what way ? (Soc: Since we found there is nothing Good nor Beautiful neither in the body nor in many other things ,b’except in The Soul , how could it not be irrational , that only pleasure is good and beautiful in the soul , and neither Courage nor Soundmindedness nor Intellect nor any of the other Good Qualities that havebeen allotted to the soul , are anything like That (Good and Beautiful) ? Then even yet , beyond all this to be forced to say that one who is not feeling joy is suffering , even if they are the best of all of them ,is bad at that time when they suffer , while in turn by so much more the one who is feeling joy , at the time when they feel joy , then to that degree , are they being transported towards Virtue ?!c Pro: All this , O Socrates , is irrational to the greatest possible degree ! '

Soc: 34 Now then on the one hand , let us not undertake to subject pleasure to every intensive scrutiny , while on the other hand , we be found to have refrained from subjecting Mind and Knowledge to the same severity . But rather let us Nobly , strike/sound/test them all around , to see/hear/discern in that way ifthey have any cracks/unsoundness , so that we may find out which of them are Naturally The Purest . ' Thus by looking into this we can make use of both The Truest Members of These , and those of pleasure to make our decision in common .Pro: Rightly so .(Soc: Then I suppose that for us , on the one hand , knowledge is concerned with productive skills

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dwhereas on the other hand , it is also concerned with education and nurture . Or what do you say ?Pro: In this way . (Soc: Then , let us first consider if the one aspect of the manual-skills has a greater grasp of knowledge while the other one has a lesser grasp of knowledge and thus we should regard the one aspect as the purest , but the other one as more impure . ' Pro: Then let us do so . ( Soc: Now then must the leading aspects of each of them be distinctly marked off ?Pro: What are they and how must they be distinguished ?Soc: For example , if any aspect of arithmetic or any measurement of length and weight ewas taken away from all the arts to any degree , then the remaining aspect of each of them would become , as the proverb says , worthless . (See Gorgias 505) . Pro: Truly worthless indeed .(Soc: At any rate , that which would be left after this would be to think in images and pay careful attention' ' to the perceptions and to any routine one experiences , so that by being able to employ guessing which many people call "art" , they acquire efficiency by practice and toil . Pro: What you are saying is most necessarily so . Soc: First of all on the one hand , is it not the case that its music is filled full with guessing , and thus its symphony is not arranged/measured according to the laws of harmony but by practiced guessing . 'And flute-playing altogether exemplifies this ; for the "measure" of each chord is conducted according to chasing-down a guess , so that it possesses a great mixture of that which is not clear , and a small amount of that which is precise . Pro: Most true . ( Soc: And we shall certainly find that medicine and agriculture and navigation and warfare b

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are possessed by the same condition . Pro: Yes very much so . ( Soc: But on the other hand , I believe that architecture , employs both the greatest number of measures and the greatest number of instruments , that provide it with great precision , thus making it more artistic than most forms of knowledge . Pro: In what way ? (Soc: Since I believe , that architecture has been refining the use of the compass and the caliper and chalk-line and anything that draws it closer to a standard of shipbuilding and of house-building and in many other wood-working skills .c Pro: You are indeed quite right , O Socrates , in what you say . Soc: Now then , let us divide the so-called arts into two species . Let us assign to one species those works that follow Music while partaking of precision in a diminished degree , then let us assign the other species to those skilled in building while participating of precision in a greater degree .Pro: Let it be so established . Soc: Then of these two , the most precise are These Arts which we just now mentioned first (55e) . Pro: It appears to me you mean arithmetic and such arts as you named just now along with this one . Soc: Yes quite so , O Protarchos. Then should we not say that these are twofold ? Or what say you ?d’’Pro: What two kinds do you mean then ? Soc: Take notice , should we not first say that any arithmetic of the many is of one species ,then in turn that of the philosophers is of another ? ’Pro: In what way then , can one kind of arithmetic ever be thus distinguished , from any other kind ?Soc: It is no small distinction , O Protarchus . Since on the one hand , somehow the many count by joining together an unequal number of units , as two army camps of unequal Multitude and two oxen of unequal e Magnitude , and two from both the smallest and largest of all , while on the other hand , the philosophers

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’would never go along with them , unless each and every single unit among their countless number of units is regarded as not bearing any difference at all to another unit . Pro: And you have very well stated that there is no small difference between the devotees of number , so that there has to be two accounts from them . Soc: What then ? What about those practiced in calculating and measuring according to the building andcommercial trades compared to both philosophical geometry and well thought out reasonings/calculations ’-must we speak of each of them as one or shall we set them down as two ? - Pro: Keeping in company with that which went before , I at least according to my calculation ’would assume that each of these are twofold . Soc: Rightly so . But do you have in mind , that for the sake of which we introduced these considerations’into our midst ? Pro: Perhaps , but I would appreciate if you would answer the present question .Soc: Now then it appears to me indeed that this very account , no less than when we began to talk , is searching for a counterpart herein , to the pleasures that have been proposed , by considering whether bthere is any other Knowledge more Pure than another knowledge , just as there was one pleasure that wasmore pure than another pleasure . (Pro: And this is quite clear indeed , that they were introduced for the sake of these very subjects here . ’

Soc: 35 What then ? Did we not find in the preceding account that some arts are clearer ’’while others were more obscure ?Pro: Entirely so . (.) Soc: Then is it not the case that by having called these Arts/arts by the same name , it makes us think that they exist in a singular condition ; as an art , but in turn since they are themselves two , the discussion asks

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c whether in regards to these qualities the Art of the philosophers or that of the non-philosophers possesses the higher degree of Clarity and Purity . Pro: Yes , it appears to me that it is indeed asking this ..Soc: Then what answer , O Protarchus , shall we give it ?Pro: O Socrates , that we have set forth a wondrously great difference in regards to the clarity of different kinds of knowledge ! Soc: Is it not the case then that this is making our choices easier ? (Pro: Truly so . And indeed let our reply be that on the one hand , there is a surpassing difference in these Arts from the others , and on the other hand , if they concern The Reality of these ’ Arts Themselves , then Those issuing from the philosophical impulse are immeasurably different din Precision and in Truth in regards to measures and numbers . Soc: Let this be so established according to you . And surely then , by having trusting in you we make this courageous reply to those (Gorgias) skilful/fearful/terrible in straining/prolonging arguments . Pro: What reply ? (Soc: That there exist two arithmetical arts and two arts of measuring and many others such as these which follow along together ; these arts possess a twofold nature , but have one name in common .Pro: Let us give the good opportunity of this choice to those whom you say are skilful , O Socrates . e

Soc: Therefore we say that these are the most Precise kinds of knowledge ? Pro: Yes entirely so . ( Soc: In that case , The Power of Discourse/Dialectics would reject us , if we chose'' any other rather than Her .

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Pro: Then in turn what is this that needs to be said ? Soc: It would be clear to all that indeed presently recognize Her , as the proverb says . For I at least suspect that they recognize That Art is concerned with Being and Reality and That Naturewhich in every possible way Is Always leading as many as are fastened to Intelligence however minutely as far as that which is Most True . But what about you , O Protarchos , how would you decide this . Pro: On the one hand , I at least having often heard Gorgias say that in every occasion the art of persuasion far surpasses all of the arts . For he said , it could make all the other arts submit to it ’ not through force , but voluntarily , and thus it is by far the best of all the arts . But on the other hand ,b’’’at this time I wish to take up a position that is opposed to neither you nor surely to that man . Soc: You appear to me to wish to say you were embarrassed "to fling your shield" .Pro: Let this be now established in any way that this appears to you . Soc: Take notice then , am I the cause of you not rightly understanding ?Pro: Not rightly understanding what ? Soc: I at least , up to this time was not searching , O friend Protarchus , for this : What art or what knowledge surpasses all others by being the greatest and best and most useful to us , but to consider what in the world is Clear and Precise and Most True , however small c and of little profit ; this is that for which we are just now searching . But behold , for you will not ’anger Gorgias , if on the one hand , you grant that the latter art flowers forth for the sake human-beings for the prevailing necessities of life , but on the other hand , that careful study of which I spoke of now , 'just as I was saying then about The Color White , that even if it was small but Pure , it would surpass’that which was great but not pure , at least in This , in The Very Truth Itself . d'And just now , with much thoughtfulness and by taking sufficient consideration , by neither looking into

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'what usefulness the different kinds of knowledge possess nor into what good reputation they possess , but whether there is a Natural Power of our soul that both Loves The Truth , and to do everything ’ for the sake of The Truth , then let us thoroughly sift them to find out whether we should say if both The Purity of Mind and Mindfulness of which we have spoken are very likely to have This Power , or we must look for some other power more authoritative than this .ePro: But I am considering , and I believe , that it is difficult to concede to some other knowledge or art that endures against The Truth more than This .

Partaking of The Unlimited And of The Limited In Its inherent Variety By Its capacity to encompass All

Gorgias Parmenides rhetoric Dialectic Concerned with opinions Concerned with Being And the "necessities of life" Disdaining everything else More - concerned with - Less Less - concerned with - More Reputation Truth reputation Truth hunger/thirst Justice hunger/thirst Justice appearance Precision appearance Precision What would be their respective power ?

Soc: Having said that , take notice then , reflect on that which you said just now ; ’whether the manifold arts , and such persons that have toiled about these arts , first of all on the one hand have used opinion and have eagerly investigated things concerned with opinion ? Even if they look intoanything that concerns nature and perceive/know that which is concerned with The Kosmos , it leads’to the following : It leads to either the manner of their production and the way anything happens to it or the way it produces ? And for this they search throughout their lives ? Do we concur with this , or what ?

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Pro: It is so . (Soc: Is it not the case then , that such people do not take up the work concerned with The Eternal Beings , (from-since they are concerned with the things that are happening and will happen and have happened to us ? Pro: Most true . ( Soc: Could we say then in the most exact Truth that any of these things become clear , which neither bever at any time were nor ever will be nor can exist at the present time , in the same state ? ’ Pro: How could it ? (Soc: And how then could we at any time bring about any certainty whatsoever , about things that have not acquired any certainty whatsoever at all ? ’ Pro: In no way whatsoever as I believe . (Soc: Accordingly then neither is any intelligence nor any knowledge concerned with them in possession of ’The Most Perfect Truth . Pro: That is very likely to be the case . (.)

Soc: 36 Surely then on the one hand , you and I must entirely dismiss whatever Gorgias and Philebos said , and on the other hand , we should confirm as evidence the following proposition . cPro : What proposition ? (Soc: That either we shall find Certainty , Purity and Truth and Those which we say are Truly Unalloyed ’among Those Existing Eternally The Same , Perfectly Unmixed , or we will find Them among those that are Most Akin to Them . whereas everything else has to be taken as secondary and inferior . ’Pro: What you say is perfectly true . ()Soc: Surely then , is it not Perfectly Just to assign to Such Noble Realities , The Noblest of Names ? ’Pro: That is very likely to be the case .(Soc: Is it not so then , that Intellect and Mindfulness are indeed names which anyone should honor most ? d’Pro: Yes .(Soc: Accordingly then , These Names are very appropriately applied and correctly given in the case of ’The Contemplation of Real Being .

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Pro: Yes , entirely so . (Soc: And it is certainly These Names and no others which I indeed offered as our choice at that time . ’Pro: Truly so , O Socrates . ( Soc: So be it . Surely then if someone were to say that both Mindfulness and pleasure lay before us , like two kinds of materials before some artisans to mix with one another and out of which or in which ethey must create something , then the comparison would be quite suitable to our discussion . Pro: Very much so . ( )Soc: Surely then , must we not in the next place try to mix these ingredients ?Pro: Certainly , then what ? (Soc: Is it not the case then , that it would be better to repeat and remind ourselves of the following ? Pro: Of what ? ( Soc: Those which we have also remembered before . Thus it appears that the proverb well says that’‘One should repeat twice and even thrice the argument that is indeed well said’ . Pro: Certainly , what then ? ( Soc: Come along then , in the name of God ; for somehow I suspect that this is the point that our argument was reaching for at that time . Pro: What is it ? ( Soc: Philebus says that pleasure is the true goal for all living beings that have been generated and that all of these beings ought to aim at it , and that this is indeed the good itself for every living being , and that ’ ’the two names , good and pleasure , should properly be set down as having one and the same nature .’ Socrates , however , says that they are not one , but two just as their names (are two) , and that The Good b ’ , ’ and the pleasant each have a nature that is different from one another , but Mindfulness Partakesof a greater share of The Good than pleasure does . Is this so and were these not the statements made ’at that time , O Protarchos ? Pro: Yes , very much so . ( Soc: Is it not so then , that what was said at that time and what was now said and the following statement

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could be agreed upon by us ?Pro: What is that ? (Soc: That The Nature of The Good differs from all the others in the following way . ’Pro: In what way ? ( Soc: That The Living Beings who Partake of This throughout Eternity Perfectly Altogether and c’In Every Way , do not ever have no further need of another , since They possess The Most Perfect Self-Sufficiency . Is this not the case ? (Pro: Yes this is the case . ( Soc: And did we not try to account for each one separate from the other by applying to each of them their respective life ; on the one hand , the life of pleasure unmixed with Mindfulness , and likewise on the other hand , The Life of Mindfulness without having the slightest share of pleasure ?Pro: It was this way .( Soc: Therefore , at that time surely it did not appear to us that either of these was sufficient to anyone ? dPro: How could it have ? THE GOOD

MoreMore Intellect–Mindfulness Pleasure of Pure Learning Pleasure of Seeing Pure Sights Pleasure of Hearing Pure Sounds (And The Recognition thereof) Mix Pleasure of Pure Aromasless opinion impure pleasures unmixed perceptions less Thoughtless-Powerless-Godless

Soc : 37 But if we indeed made any mistake at all at that time , let us now take up the enquiry again and set it right ,by assuming that Memory and Mindfulness and Knowledge and True Opinion are Ideas

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that belong to The Same Genus , and by considering if anyone would accept anything at all that either ’ exists or will come to be without any of These Qualities , surely then not even if it were full of pleasure either as plentiful or as intense as possible , if they had no true opinion that they were pleased , nor any ’’’recognition of any experience at all that of what has happened at some time , not either of any memory e’nor of any time of any experience at all . And then let them ask the same thing about Mindfulness . Would’they accept Mindfulness if It existed without any of all the pleasures however brief , rather than with some ’pleasures , or in turn accept all the pleasures apart from Mindfulness , rather than with some Mindfulness . Pro: Neither choice will do , O Socrates , but neither should you keep asking the same question so often . ’Soc: Then neither indeed could either of these two choices be That which is Perfect and Altogether Good and The Object of Desire/Desirable to allPro: How could it be ? ( Soc: So then , either one must receive The Good clearly , and or some Model of It , in order that , just as we said , we understand to what we shall give second place . Pro: What you say is most true .( Soc: Is it not the case then that there is a certain road that has taken us towards The Good ? Pro: What road ? (Soc: Just as if we were searching for a certain man but first would learn by inquiring of his home in order to correctly discern where he lives ; then what truly great progress would be made towards b’the discovery of that for which we were searching . Pro: How could it not ? (’ Soc: And just now an analogy was revealed to us , that just as in the beginning , ’we were not to search for The Good in the unmixed life but in The Mixed Life [The Dwelling Place] .’Pro: Yes , entirely so . ( Soc: There is certainly plenty of hope that the object of our search will become more apparent in

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The Well Mixed Life , rather than in the life that is not ? Pro: Much more indeed . ( .) Soc: Surely then , let us mix while praying to The Gods , O Protarchus , to either Dionysos or Hephaestos cor whichever of The Gods has been allotted The Honor over these Mixtures . Pro: Let us then do so by all means. ( Soc: And certainly just as cupbearers who stand with fountains beside us , from which we must mix with Good-will as best as possible ; on the one hand , the fount of pleasure could be compared to a spring of honey , while on the other hand the fount of Mindfulness to a Sober and Austere and Healthful spring of Pure Water . Pro: How could we not ? ( Soc: Come along then . Accordingly then , before we do this , would we Most Elegantly Succeed dby mixing in all of the pleasure with all of the Mindfulness ? Pro: Perhaps . ( Soc: But perhaps that is not a Safe way . But I believe that I have a notion by which we may clearly reveal ’the way we could make our mixture without risking more danger . .Pro: Tell us what it is .(SocWas it not truly the case that one pleasure appeared to us as if it were more intense than another just as surely as one art appeared to be more precise than another art ? Pro: How could it not be so ? (Soc: And surely then , one knowledge appeared to be different from another knowledge , on the one hand one that turned its gaze upon generation and corruption , while on the other hand , The Other One turns towards e neither generation nor corruption , but towards The Beings which Eternally Abide In The Same Way . Thus , by having turned our attention towards this latter view ; into The Truth , led us to see that it is more True than the former view . Pro: And quite rightly so . (Soc: Is it not so then , that if we first mix together Those that are The Truest Sections of each of these ,

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then we might see , whether these Sections/Hyparxis are sufficiently capable of bringing to completion The Most Desirable Life , when they have been mixed together by us (32b) , or do we still need something else , and not these sections . Pro: It appears to me that this is what we must do .

“Where do you Live ? Come along and See .” Pleasures Arts Knowledges

Soc: 38 Surely then , let us postulate a human-being that is Mindful about Righteousness Itself ; of what It Is , they will also possesses Reason that follows in the wake of The Intellection , so also then they will similarly possess an understanding concerning all the other beings .Pro: Let there be such a person then . ( Soc: Take notice then ; does this person on the one hand possess sufficient Knowledge by comprehending ’The Principle/Reason/Understanding of The Divine Circle Itself and The Divine Sphere Itself , while on the other hand , the same person is ignorant of those spheres and circles made by mankind , and is similarly ignorant of the other standards and circles that are consulted/employed in architecture ?bPro: Ours would be a ridiculous state of affairs , O Socrates , if we were to claim that we are singularly concerned with divine knowledge . Soc: What are you saying ? Must we throw in the false standard and the false circle of the skills which are at the same time neither Precise nor Pure , and must we mix them together in common ? Pro: Necessarily so , especially if any one of us intends to discover , each his own road home . Where is home ? Does not that which is the most precise provide the model used by all true Artisans ?Does consulting The Divine Model necessarily mean that one has their head “Up in the clouds ” ? According to THE CRATYLUS , is not the work of the Philosopher\Dialectician to supervise the work of all craftsmen because they work on copies whereas The Philosopher has the presence of mind to consult The Divine Model ? Is not the very nature of their work embodied in their very name ? Would not he that consults mere

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opinions of what is true not be called a philosopher but a philodoxer and not a dialectician but a rhetorician ? Where is home ? Among the shadows ? What about the home of The Beloved ? jfb .]

Soc: And what about music , which a little while ago we said was filled full of skilled-guesswork and imitation , that exists in need of purification .cPro: It appears to me at least that we must , if indeed our life is to be a life in any way at all . Soc: Surely then your life intends to throw open the gates , just as a gatekeeper being forced back and overpowered by a mob is unable to resist , allowing all kinds of knowledge to rush in , and to mingle ’together The Pure along with the more impure ? Pro: I at least do not see , O Socrates , what harm could befall anyone who takes up all the other kinds dof knowledge , if they possess The Primary Ones . Soc: In that case , shall I let them all loose to flow together into what the very poetical Homer calls “ the meeting place/receptacle where the mountain glens and streams meet ” ? Pro: Let them loose by all means . ( .

The Iliad IV 446-456 The Alexander Pope Translation The American News Company

As torrents roll , increased by numerous rills , With rage impetuous , down their echoing hills , Rush to the vales , and poured along the plain , Roar through a thousand channels to the main : The distant shepherd trembling , hears the sound So mix both hosts , and so their cries , rebound . The Richard Lattimore Translation The University of Chicago Press

Now as these advancing came to one place and encountered , They dashed their shields together and their spears , and the strength of armored men in bronze , and the shields massive in the middle clashed against each other , and the sound grew huge of the fighting . There the screaming and the shouts of triumph rose up together of men killing and men killed , and the ground ran blood . As when rivers in winter spate running down from the mountains throw together at the meeting of the streams the weight of their water out of the great springs behind

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in the hollow stream-bed , and far away in the mountains , the shepherd hears their thunder ; such , from the coming together of men , was the shock and the shouting . Soc: 39 Let them be set loose : And again one must turn towards the fountain of pleasures . Since the way we were considering of mixing them , by first taking up The True Parts of knowledge did not turn out successful for us , but because of the fondness of all knowledge we let the multitude flow e into These before any of the pleasures . Pro: What you say is most true . (Soc: Surely then the hour has come for us two to consider about the pleasures , whether we must dismiss all the same mob , or must we first let flow as many of these that are The True Ones .Pro: There is indeed a great difference in regards to safety by first letting loose The True ones .Soc: Let Them flow then . But what thereafter ? If there exist any pleasures that are necessary , should we not mix them together with These , just as we did with those ?’Pro: Why not then ? Presumably by being The necessary ones , we must indeed . ’

[Must we , really ? Consider what is said in the 9th Book of The Republic(Balboa translation) where Socrates says : ]

Socrates: Is it not also the case , that besides these affections , we shall still attribute to this person , what we also formerly mentioned , that by governing , he must necessarily become , and be even more than before , envious , faithless , unjust , unfriendly , unholy , and a recipient and contributor of all wickedness ; and on the one hand , from all these things be most especially unfortunate himself , and then , on the other hand , completely render all those about him such as himself .Glaucon: (he said) No one , who possesses Intellect will deny it .Socrates: (I continued) Come along then , now at last , just as a judge who issues a verdict b

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by considering all the cases , so you in the same way , according to your opinion , which one is First in Spiritual-Well-Being , and who is second , and the rest in order , being five in all ;The Kingdom , the timocratic , the oligarchic , the democratic , and the tyrannical .Glaucon: (he said) But the verdict , is easy . For I at least , judge them as if they were choruses and rank them exactly as they were introduced , in regards to their Virtue and vice and by their Spiritual-Well-Being , and Its opposite .Socrates: (then I said) Shall we hire then , a Herald , or shall I myself declare , that the son ’of Ariston , has judged that The Best and Most-Just Person is The Most Spiritually-Sound ; and thus , that This is The One who has The Most-Noble Spirit , and Rules Himself with a c’Kingly/Noble Power ; but that the worst and the most unjust person is the most wretched ; furthermore , that this person in turn , will be the one who is most tyrannical , who is also in the greatest degree possible , a tyrant over himself , and the city ?Glaucon: (he said) Let it be so proclaimed by you .Socrates: (I said) Then , shall I add , whether these characters be unnoticed to be such , or not , to all men and Gods?Glaucon: (he said) Add it . ( .)

Socrates: 7 (I said) Let it be so . This then , on the one hand , would be one of ourdproofs . But on the other hand , see if there appears to be anything in the following second proof .Glaucon: Which one is it ? ( ;)Socrates: (then I said) Since the soul of every individual is divided into three , in the same way ’as the city was divided into three parts/species/classes , as it appears to me , this , will also admit another demonstration .Glaucon: Which one is that ? ( ;)

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Socrates: The following one . To the three parts that make-up the soul , there appear to me to correspond three pleasures ; one peculiar to each part . And the desires and the ruling elements correspond in the same manner .Glaucon: (he replied) In what way do you mean this ? ( ;)Socrates: On the one hand , there was one part , we said , through which a person learns , but on the other hand , another through which a person is spirited , but because the third part is so multiform that we are unable to express it by one word peculiar to itself , thus we named this aspect from that which is greatest and most intense in it . For we called it eappetitive/desiderative , because of the intensity of the appetites/desires concerned with eating , and drinking , and sexual desires , and whatever else accompany these ; and we surely called it a lover-of-money , because it is by means of money , most especially , that such desires are accomplished .Glaucon: (he replied) And we named it correctly indeed . (’Socrates: Take notice then , if we say that it takes its pleasure and delight in gain/acquisitions , ’shall we best of all , reduce it under one heading in our discourse , in order that we make ’ something clear about them , whenever we shall mention this part of the soul , and , by callingit , the money-loving and the gain/profit-loving part , shall we name it properly ?Glaucon: (he said) So it appears to me at least . ( .) Socrates: What follows then ? Do we not certainly say , that the spirited-part , is always wholly impelled towards mastery , victory and to be well-thought-of ?Glaucon: Very much so . ( .)Socrates: If then , we should address it , as the victory-loving/contentious band honor-loving/ambitious part , will it be done in a truly harmonious way ?Glaucon: Most harmoniously then . ( .)Socrates: Certainly then , it is evident to every one indeed , that the part of the soul , by which

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we learn , is wholly intent towards always knowing The Truth in any way it can ; and as far as money and reputation are concerned , it cares for these least of all .Glaucon: Entirely so . ( .)Socrates: Surely then , should we call it , the lover-of-learning , and the philosophic , shall we name it according to propriety .Glaucon: How should we not ? ( ;)Socrates: (then I said) Is it not the case then , that these also rule in souls , one of them in some , c’and another in others , as it may happen to be the case ?Glaucon: (he said) Just so . ( .)Socrates: Surely then on account of these , we also said that there exist the three original species of people ; The Philosophic , the victory-loving , and the gain-loving ?Glaucon: Exactly so . ( .)Socrates: And that there surely existed three species of pleasures ; one underlying each of these .Glaucon: Entirely so . ( .)Socrates: (then I said) You know then , that if you were to ask these three types of people ; ’’each of them in turn , which of these lives is the most pleasurable , each one would most of all commend their own life ? Of which life , the money-lover will indeed say , that in comparison with the pleasure of acquiring money , that arising from honor , or from learning , is of no value , dunless of course , one can make money by them .Glaucon: (he said) True . ( .)Socrates: (then I said) What then about the honor-lover ? Is he not led to believe , on the one ’hand , that the pleasure arising from money-making is a burden , and in turn , unless the one arising from learning , the learning itself brings him honor , it is thus smoke and unimportant ?Glaucon: (he said) It has to be in this way . ( , .)

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Socrates: (then I said) What then , are we to think The Philosopher considers the other pleasures e ’are worth , in comparison to The Pleasure of Knowing The Truth ; in what way It Has to Exist , while being continuously engaged in learning Something of This Kind ? Will The Philosopher not consider them far removed from True Pleasure , and in fact , he calls these pleasures necessary , as having no need of them , if they were not absolutely-necessary .Glaucon: (he said) The philosopher must know this well .

Socrates: 8 (I said) Surely then , whenever these several lives and their respective pleasures dispute with each other , not with reference to living more beautifully or more basely , or worse or better ; but merely with reference to this ; whether they are living more pleasantly , or more painfully ; how can we know , which one of them speaks most according to The Truth ? Glaucon: (he said) I at least , am not quite able to tell .Socrates: But consider it in the following way . By what criterion should we make a decision ’on what is to be decided-upon In a Graceful-Way ? Is it not through Experience , Mindfulness , ’and Rational-Discourse ? Or has anyone a Better Criterion than These ?Glaucon: (he said) How could they ? ( ;)Socrates: Consider then ; of the three types of people , which one is the most experienced in all the pleasures which we have mentioned ? Does it appear to you that the lover-of-gain , is more experienced in learning The Truth Itself , Such as It Is , and in The Pleasure arising from Knowing , than The Philosopher , in that which arises from getting-money ?bGlaucon: (he said) There is a great difference . For on the one hand , The Philosopher , beginning from their childhood , must necessarily , have tasted of the other pleasures ; but on the

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other hand , the lover-of-gain has not necessarily tasted nor has become experienced in any way , ’in what is Itself , The Sweet Pleasure of Learning The Nature of Realities , but rather , even if the lover-of-gain were eager , it would not be easy for them to do so .Socrates: (then I said) Accordingly then , The Philosopher , far surpasses the lover-of-gain , ’in the experience indeed of both the pleasures .Glaucon: Certainly then , by far . ( .)Socrates: What then about the lover-of-honor ? Is that person then , more experienced in the c pleasure arising from honor , than The Philosopher is in That arising from Soundness of Mind ?Glaucon: (he said) But honor , on the one hand , attends all of them , if indeed each one of them obtains that which they aim at . For the rich man is also honored by many , and the brave , and the wise , so that indeed the pleasure arising from honor , such as it is , all of them have experienced it . But on the other hand , in The Contemplation of Reality Itself , What Kindof Pleasure It has to be , is impossible for any other except The Philosopher to have tasted .Socrates: (I said) Accordingly then , on the one hand , on account of experience , dThe Philosopher , of all people , Judges The Best .Glaucon: Very much so . ( .)Socrates: And certainly , The Philosopher will be the only one whose experience will have been indeed accompanied by Mindfulness .Glaucon: Of course , what follows then ? ( ;)Socrates: Certainly then , even the organ by which these pleasures must be judged is indeed not ’the organ of the lover-of-gain , nor of the lover-of-honor , but that of The Philosopher .Glaucon: Which kind of organ/function/instrument is it ? (;)Socrates: We said somewhere () , that they must be judged by Reason , did we not ?

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Glaucon: Yes . ( .)Socrates: But Reasoning , is most especially , the function of The Philosopher .Glaucon: How then could it not be so ? (’ ;)Socrates: Is it not the case then , that if , on the one hand , whatever was to be determined , ewere best determined by riches and gain , then , what the lover-of-gain praised and despised , would necessarily be that which is The Most Truthful .Glaucon: Entirely so indeed . ( .)Socrates: But if , on the other hand , it was determined by honor and victory and bravery , would it not be that which the lover-of-honor and the lover-of-victory determined ?’Glaucon: That is clear . (.) Socrates: But since it is by Experience , and Mindfulness , and Reason , what follows ?’Glaucon: (he said) That what The Philosopher and The Lover of Reason commends/praises , must necessarily be The Most True .Socrates: Accordingly then , of the three pleasures , The One that will be The Most Pleasant , ’ belongs to That Part of The Soul , by which we Learn , and The One among us , in whom This Part Governs , Lives The Most Pleasant Life .Glaucon: (he said) How then , could it not be the case ? At any rate , The Mindful Person , ’being The Masterful Singer , Praises their own Life .Socrates: (I asked) Then which life is second , and which pleasure does the judge say is second place ? Glaucon: It is clear , that it is that of the warlike and honor-loving person ; for this is nearer to Their own life , than that of the money-maker . Socrates: Surely then , that of the lover-of-gain is last , as it appears .Glaucon: (to which he then said) Of course , what follows then ? (’;)

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Socrates: 9 These two points then , on the one hand , have succeeded one another in order , b’and The Just Person will thus be Victorious over the unjust person twice . On the other hand , The Third Victory , in The Olympic Way , belongs to Olympic Zeus , The Savior . For observe ,that the pleasure of the others is not altogether-real nor pure , except That of The Mindful Person , but are a shadowy-representation , as I appear to myself to have heard from One of The Wise . ’And surely this would be the greatest and most masterful/decisive of the falls .’ Glaucon: Very much so . But in what way do you mean this ?Socrates: (I said) In the following way ; I shall unfold it , while searching , if at the same time ,cyou answer my questions .Glaucon: (he said) Ask away then . ( .)Socrates: (then I replied) Tell me then , do we not say that pain is the opposite of pleasure ?’Glaucon: Quite so . ( .)Socrates: Is it not also the case , that to feel neither joy nor pain is some sort of condition ?Glaucon: It certainly is . ( .)Socrates: Being in the middle , between both these , it is a certain Quietude of The Soul ,with reference to them ? Or would you not state it in this way ?Glaucon: (to which he then replied) In this way . ’ ;Socrates: (then I said) Take notice then , do you not remember , the words of those that are sick , ’’which they speak when they are sick ?Glaucon: Which ones ? ( ;)Socrates: For instance , that nothing is more pleasant than Being Healthy , but that it escaped dtheir notice , before they became sick , that it was The Most Pleasant .Glaucon: (he said) I remember it . ( .)Socrates: Is it not also the case , that you hear those who are suffering severe pain say ,

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that there is nothing more pleasant than the cessation from suffering-pain .Glaucon: I do hear them . ( .)Socrates: And you indeed perceive many similar conditions happening in other people , I suspect , in which , when they are in pain , they praise not having any pain , and The Quietude of such a state , as being the most pleasant , but not that of feeling joy .Glaucon: (he said) For this equally becomes at that time a pleasant and Well-disposed Quietude .Socrates: (I said) Accordingly then , also when anyone ceases feeling joy , This Quietude e from pleasure will be painful . Glaucon: (he said) That is equally so . ( .)Socrates: Accordingly then , This Quietude , which we just now said was between both of them , will at times be both of these ; pain and pleasure . ? !Glaucon: It appears to be so . ( .)Socrates: Is it also possible , that What is neither of the two , to become both ? ! Glaucon: It does not so appear to me . ( .)Socrates: And certainly , when that which indeed becomes pleasant and painful in the soul , then , both sensations are a certain motion ; are they not ?Glaucon: Yes . (.)Socrates: But was not that which is neither painful nor pleasant just now brought to light to be Quietude , and certainly then , in the middle of these ?Glaucon: It was made manifest . ( .)Socrates: Therefore , how is it correct , to be led to consider it pleasant not to be suffering , or distressing not to feel joy ?Glaucon: Not in any way at all . ( .)Socrates: (then I said) Accordingly then , at this time , Quietude is not really this , but it appears ,’pleasant in respect to the painful , and painful in respect to the pleasant . And there is nothing Healthy in these appearances/phantoms as to The Truth of pleasure , but a certain illusion .Glaucon: (he said) As far as the account signifies . ( .)

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Socrates: (I continued) Now then take a look , at The Pleasures , which do not arise from the bcessation of pains , in order that you may not frequently think , in the present discourse , that they Naturally Subsist in this way ; on the one hand , that pleasure is the cessation of pain , and on the other hand , that pain is the cessation of pleasure .Glaucon: (he said) Where then shall I look , and which pleasure do you mean ?Socrates: (I said) On the one hand , there are many others , but on the other hand , if you wish’ to especially bring-to-mind the pleasures from smells . For these , without any preceding pain , suddenly attain an ineffable intensity , and when they cease , they leave behind no pain . Glaucon: (he said) Most true . ( .)Socrates: Accordingly then , let us not be persuaded that Pure Pleasure is the release from pain , cnor pain the removal of pleasure .Glaucon: Let us not . ( .)Socrates: (I said) But certainly then , the affections which indeed extend through the body to the soul , and which are called pleasures , nearly the majority and the most considerable part of them , are of this species , (which are in fact) , a certain liberation from pain . Glaucon: Yes they are . ( .)Socrates: Is it not also the case then , that the preconceptions of pleasure and pain , which arisefrom the expectation of pleasure and pain , are of the same kind ?Glaucon: Of the same kind . ( .)Socrates: (thenI said) 10 Do you know then , of what kind they are , and what d’’they especially resemble ?Glaucon: (he said) What ? ;Socrates: (I said) Do you reckon , there is any-such-thing in nature as this ; the above , the below , and the middle ?Glaucon: I do at least . ( .)

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Socrates: Therefore , do you think that anyone , would imagine anything else , than that they are brought to the above , when they are brought from below to the middle ? And takingtheir stand in the middle , while looking in the direction from which they had been brought ,would they be led to believe that they were anywhere else than in the above , never having seen that which is Really Above ? Glaucon: (he said) By Zeus , I at least do not think that such an person will imagine otherwise .’ Socrates: (I said) But if they would indeed again be carried to the below , they would believe e ’ ’ that they were carried to the below , and would believe so , according to The Truth .’Glaucon: How could they not ? ( ;)Socrates: Is it not the case then , that they would be affected in all these respects , from not having experience of What Is Truly Above , and in the middle , and below ?Glaucon: It is certainly clear . ( .)Socrates: Is it a wonder then , that if people are also inexperienced in The Truth , they will have unsound opinions about many other things , and are also so disposed towards pleasure and pain , and what is between these , so that , on the one hand , when they are brought to what is painful , they both imagine truly and are in fact pained . But on the other hand , when they are brought from pain to the middle , they intensely believe that they have arrived at fullness and pleasure . Just as those who , having no experience of the white , look upon to compare , the grey to the black , in the same way , those who make a determination of pain , compared to the lack of pain , are deceived , through the inexperience of pleasure .Glaucon: (to which he then said) By Zeus , it is not a wonder , but much rather , if it were not so .’Socrates: (I said) Thus , bring-it-to-mind indeed in the following way . Are not hunger and thirst , ’

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and such like affections , a certain emptiness , which are part of the condition of the body ? b Glaucon: What else ? ( ;)Socrates: Then , are not ignorance and inattention in turn an emptiness in the habit of the soul ?’Glaucon: Very much so . ( .)Socrates: Is it not the case then , that (the body) which is filled receives/partakes of nourishment , ’and , the soul is filled , when it possesses Intellect ?Glaucon: How could this not be the case ? (’ ;)Socrates: Then , which one has The More Real Fulfillment ; that which partakes less , or that which Partakes More of Reality ?Glaucon: It is clear , that it is that which partakes more . ( .)Socrates: Therefore , which species are you led to believe , Participates more , of Pure Essential-Being ; whether it is such as these , which partake of bread and drink and meat , and all such kinds of nourishment , or That Species which Participates in turn , of true opinion and Knowledge , and Intellect , and in sum , of all Virtue ? But distinguish it in the following way . c That which is Conditioned/Maintained/Holds-fast to That which Is Always Similar , andImmortal , and True , and Being Itself So Disposed , and Arising in What Is So , does it appear to you , to be more Real , than that which holds-fast to what is never similar , and mortal ,which is itself so , and continually-arises in what exists in such a condition ?Glaucon: (he said) This differs much from That which Is Always Similar .Socrates: Therefore , does the essential-being of that which is always dissimilar , participate any more of Essential-Being than it does of Knowledge ?Glaucon: By no means . ( .)Socrates: But does it Participate more of The Truth ?’Glaucon: Nor of this . ( .)

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Socrates: Then , if it participates less of The Truth , does it not also do so of Essential-Being ?Glaucon: Necessarily . (.)Socrates: Is it not wholly the case then , in turn , that the species relating to the care of the body , dparticipate less of The Truth and of Essential-Being , than The Species relating to The Therapy of The Soul ?Glaucon: Much less indeed . ( .)Socrates: In that case then , the body itself , less , than the soul itself . Do you think so ?Glaucon: I do at least . ( .)Socrates: Is it not the case then , that , That which is Filled with more Real Beings (Truth , Knowledge , Essential-Being) and is Itself a more Real Being (Soul) , is more Fulfilled than that which is filled with less real existences , and is itself , a less real existence ?Glaucon: How could it not be the case ? ( ;)Socrates: If then , it is Pleasant to be Filled with What is Suitable to Nature , then , that which is e in Reality Filled , and Filled with more Real Beings , must be made to enjoy True Pleasure , both more Truly , and more Really ; but that (body) which participates of less real beings (affections) , must also be less Truly and Firmly Filled , and will participate of a more uncertain , and less Real Pleasure .Glaucon: (he said) Most necessarily . ( .)Socrates: Accordingly then , such people that are inexperienced with Mindfulness and Virtue , but are always taking-part in feastings and such like associations , are carried , as it appears , below , and back again to the middle , and there they wander for life . But never , passing beyond this , nor turning their gaze towards What Is Truly Above , nor carried to It ; nor are they ever , Really Filled with Real Being ; nor have they ever , Tasted Solid and Pure Pleasure ; but after the manner of fatted-beasts , continually gazing downwards with heads-bowed towards the earth and to their tables , being fattened on fodder and coupling , and for the sake of

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bof these excesses , knocking and struggling with iron horns and iron weapons , (finally) kill one another , through their inability to be fulfilled , just as those who keep-filling ’ with unreal existences (matter) that which is of itself no real being (body) nor watertight !Narrator-Socrates: Glaucon said (Glaucon: You most perfectly proclaim as an oracle the life of the multitude , O Socrates , Socrates: Take notice then , must they not necessarily , be conversant with pleasures mixed ’with pains ; with images of True Pleasure , being sketched , shaded and colored-over , by their position beside each other , so that each of their affections , appears to be intense , c ’and in the mindless , engender a raving love of self , phantoms to be fought for , just as in Troy , Stesichoros says they fought for the image of Helen , `by being ignorant of The Truth ? Glaucon: (he said) Something like this , must quite necessarily be the case .

Socrates: 11 What follows then ? What about the spirited part of the soul ? Must not other such like dramas take place , whenever anyone succeeds in satisfying this part , either through the-love-of-honor , satisfying envy , or through the-love-of-victory , satisfying violence , or through a bad-disposition , satisfying anger , by pursuing their fill of honor , of conquest , d and of anger , without any Rationality , and without Intellect ? (Contained & Container) Glaucon: (to which he then said) Such things as these , must necessarily also be the case ’ concerning this part of the soul .Socrates: (then I said) What follows then ? Shall we confidently say , that in regards to both ’the profit-loving and the victory-loving part , those desires which are , on the one hand , ableto follow Knowledge and Reason , and in conjunction with These , pursue the pleasures of which

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The Mindful-Part of the soul shall be The Leader , and thus obtain The Truest Pleasures , as far as it is possible for them to grasp True Pleasure , and in as much as they follow The Truth , Pleasures which are their own . If indeed what is Best for everyone is Most-Properly their own ?e Glaucon: (he said) But surely it is indeed most properly their own . Socrates: Accordingly then , when The Whole Soul , follows to The Philosophic Part , andthere is no sedition in It , then each part , in every respect , Performs its own Proper-business , and is Just , and surely each part will reap its own Pleasures , and such as are The Best , and as far as it is possible , The Most True .Glaucon: Perfectly so , on the one hand . ( .)Socrates: But accordingly then , on the other hand , when any of the other parts is master , it happens that it does not discover its own pleasures , and it compels the other parts to pursue ’a pleasure foreign to them , and not at all True .Glaucon: (he said) It is so . ( .)Socrates: Is it not the case then , that the parts which are the most remote from Philosophy and Reason , will most especially bring-about such conditions ?’ Glaucon: Very much so . ( .)Socrates: But is not that which is most remote from Reason , such as that which is furthest removed from Law and Order ?Glaucon: It is clearly so . ( .)Socrates: But , have not the erotic and the tyrannical desires been shown to bethe most remote (from Law and Order) ?Glaucon: Quite so indeed . ( .)Socrates: Then , The Royal and The Orderly , are The Least Remote (from Law and Order) ?b ;Glaucon: Yes . (.)Socrates: Surely then , I suspect , the tyrant shall be the most remote from True Pleasure , and most remote from Those that are most properly his own , while The Other shall be Least Remote .

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Glaucon: Necessarily . ( .)Socrates: (I said) Accordingly then , the tyrant shall also live a most unpleasant life , whileThe King shall Live a Most Pleasant Life .Glaucon: Most necessarily . ( .)Socrates: (then I said) Do you know then , how much more unpleasant is the life of the tyrant ’’compared to that of The King ?Glaucon: (he said) If you will tell me . ( .)Socrates: As there are three pleasures , it appears , one Legitimate , on the one hand , but two c illegitimate , on the other hand , by the tyrant exceeding the illegitimate ones beyond the limit , by fleeing from Law and Reason, and by dwelling with certain slavish pleasures as body-guards , just how far he is inferior , is not at all easily told , except perhaps , in the following way .Glaucon: (he said) How ? ( ;)Socrates: The tyrant is in some way the third removed from the oligarchic character ; for the democratic character was in the middle of them .Glaucon: Yes . ( .)Socrates: Is it not the case then , that the tyrant will also dwell with a phantom/image of pleasure , three steps removed from that Other , in regards to The Truth , if our former Reasoning is True ?’Glaucon: Just so . ( .)Socrates: But the oligarchic character is indeed in turn , three steps removed from the Kingly , d if we suppose The Aristocratic and The Royal Character to be the same .Glaucon: The oligarch is the third . ( .)Socrates: (then I said) Accordingly then , three times three , is the numerical interval ’by which the tyrant is removed from True Pleasure . Glaucon: So it has come to light . (.)Socrates: (I continued) Accordingly then , a plain surface , may be the image/phantom ’

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of tyrannical pleasure , as it is likely , according to the number of its length/dimension (3 X 3).Glaucon: Exactly so indeed . ( .) Socrates: But by squaring and cubing , it is surely manifest by how great an interval it is remote .Glaucon: (he said) It is indeed manifest , to the mathematician .Socrates: Is it not the case then , that if someone were to turn-this-about , to explain the extenteto which Royalty is separated from tyranny , in regards to True Pleasure , they will discover upon completing the multiplication , that

[The anti-strophe countering the right-to-left movement of the strophe with a left-to right . JFB] the distance from The True Pleasure of The Philosopher King , as far as it is removed , to that of the tyrant , it will be discovered upon the completion of the multiplication that The Philosopher King’s life is sevenhundredandtwentyninetimes (729) sweeter ,

Legitimate

illegitimate

outlaws “born-slaves” “the protectorate “colored images” root of the tyrant” extreme outlaws “shadows”

Glaucon: (he said) You have-poured-over-us an overwhelming calculation , of the difference between the just and the unjust type of characters , in reference to pleasure and pain .Socrates: (then I said) Yet certainly , the numbers are also indeed True and Properly-correspond ’to their lives , if indeed days , and nights , and months , and years , Properly-correspond to them .Glaucon: (he said) But surely , they do Properly-correspond to them .

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Socrates: Is it not the case then , that if The Victory for pleasure of The Good and Just Character , over the bad and unjust character , is such as this , Truly then , as great as this , will The Just be Overwhelmingly Victorious over the unjust , in regards to Elegance , Life , Beauty and Virtue ?Glaucon: (he said) Certainly then , in a overwhelming degree , by Zeus .

Height = Kingship 3 The 3rd power of Cubing 9x9x9 = 729 aristocracy 3x81 = 243Breadth = oligarchy 3 The 2nd power of Squaring 3x27 = 81 democracy 3x9 = 27Length = tyranny 3 The 1st power of addition 3+3+3 = 9

Days / Nights Lunar Months Years 360 12 x 30 1 360 x 2 = 720 2 years & 9 days the tyrant

And if we “turn this about another way” , consider that the number 9 is first of all an Odd number that belongs to the class of number called “The Mixed” since it has properties belonging to the other two opposed species of Odd number ; The Prime and Incomposite , and the secondary and composite : Nicomachus of Gerasa , Book 1 , Introduction to Arithmetic (D’Ooge , U of Chicago) Chapter XIII , [1] “… a third species of the Odd is conceived of , between them , deriving , as it were , its specific form , from them both , namely the number which is in itself secondary and composite , but relatively to another number is Prime and Incomposite .”

Now did not Socrates warn Protarchus about mixing The Pure with the impure ? “What harm can come of it ?” asked Protarchus . Tyranny we answer . For does it not happen often that tyranny has an upside down perspective of everything they perceive ? Indeed , they often accuse Socrates of being upside down because from their perspective he “is” upside down , but in Reality he is Right side up and Above them while they are below and he through his Dialectics , tries to bring them up where they truly belong ! Thus , if you will , the deceptive power of the secondary and composite aspect can delude one to believe that they are right because of the Prime and Incomposite [though perverted] aspect of which they also partake . Consider this point of view , the way that Proclus , elegantly , puts it in his Commentary on The First Alcibiades : A Translation by William O’Neill , Martinus Nijhoff / The Hague / 1965 . [104] Now these are the reasons why I say that Socrates appears to bestow praise , but in reality confutes the ignorance of the young man ; but in general this question must be asked ; on the basis of what notion did Alcibiades posit this “want of nothing” as an element of the happy life ?We must reply that Self-Sufficiency exists Primarily among the Gods Themselves ; for The Gods are Good , They are Excellences Beyond and The Full Sum of All Beings , through whom Self-Sufficiency comes to all others , both to Intellects , Divine Souls , Spirits , and ourselves ; and other things are Self-sufficient by Participation , but Gods by Their Essential Being . For this reason then , the common and

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unperverted notion characterizes Happiness by Self-Sufficiency ; for The Sources of Goodness are also The Sources of Self-Sufficiency . Again you see herein how Alcibiades is correct according to The Major , but deceived according to the minor premise. He reasons thus : [in his abysmal ignorance as described in [102] , like the tyrant. JFB]

“I am happy because of my body , family , friends and wealth ; and the happy man is in want of nothing ; therefore ,” he says “I am in want of nothing .”

Well , that The Happy Man is “in want of nothing” , is true , but that Alcibiades is happy is false ; the conclusion then , is false on account of the minor . So , you will find , both the lover of pleasure and the lover of money , deceived on this account ; the one posits pleasure , the other money as “the good ” , but that every Good is desirable is the common premise of both of them . To put it briefly , they each posit their Major premises by realizing them in common notions and the faculty of reason [like the Primary.and Incomposite . JFB] , but they put forward the minors from imagination , sense perception , and the irrational emotions [like the secondary and composite] . So , in the latter they differ from each other , but in The Former they are of One Mind ; For the emotions are “the cause” to souls of division and discord ; since they are like The Titans [105]and “tear and rend asunder” The Intellect within us ; but reason (and the realization thereof) is common to all, and on this account is “A Godsend to be Shared by All ” to give this phrase a Just interpretation .

[Mixing The Major & minor premises : to souls : : Mixing The Prime & secondary qualities : to 9 Everything to its Proper place and relation ! JFB] And if we “turn this about another way” , consider the number 729 according to the way Nicomachus unfolds it : Book II , Introduction to Arithmetic , Chapter III .“ [1] Every Multiple will stand at The Head of as many superparticular ratios corresponding in name with itself , as it itself happens to be removed from Unity , and no more nor less under any circumstances . [2] The Doubles , then , will produce sesquialters , the first one , the second two , the third three , the fourth four , the fifth five , the sixth six , and neither more nor less , but by every necessity when the superparticulars that are generated attain the proper number , that is , when their number agrees with the Multiples that have generated them , at that point , by a Divine Device, as it were , there is found the number that terminates them all , because it naturally is not divisible by that factor whereby the progression of the superparticular ratios went on . From the Triples all the sesquitertians will proceed , likewise equal in number to the number of the generating terms , and coming to an end , after the independence of their advance is lost , in numbers not divisible by 3 .

The Triple Ratio , along the Hypotenuse 729 243 486 81 162 324 The Sesquialter Ratio 27 54 108 216 in The Depth 9 18 36 72 144 3 6 12 24 48 96 2 4 8 16 32 64 The Double Ratio , along the Breadth 1 3 9 27 81 243 729 The Triple Ratio , along the Breadth 4 12 36 108 324 972 16 48 144 432 1296

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64 192 576 1728 The Sesquitertian Ratio 256 768 2304 in The Depth 1024 3072 4096The Quadruple Ratio , along the Hypotenuse

Similarly , the sesquiquartans come from The Quadruples , reaching a culmination after their independent progression in a number that is not divisible by 4 .”

[Therefore , according to verse [1] , 64 , being at The Head and 729 at The End of the the Doubles and Triples , respectively , that progression will have 6 sesquialter ratios , being 6 degrees removed from Unity , that it will produce , no more no less . Now , consider that this process is being described using the form of a body , that is , with a Head and with terminations or extremities , if you will , for it is three dimensional , as all bodies are . Plato makes many references to the fact that even reasoned arguments must be made up in the same way and not exist without a head or extremities or a body . Now if we consider that the number 729 is an inherently complete number , having all the components of a body and one that exemplifies the qualites mentioned above of Elegance , Life , Beauty and Virtue , then one might be inclined to call it a Just Number . For consider that first of all that this progression starts from Unity , like all other progressions , as from The Source of all number , giving it besides its very existence (Life) , its Wholeness of Form . Then the next part , The Double , is the very first Multiple arising from the Number 2 Itself ; the second number to come into existence . The progression ends at 64 , thus providing this progression its Head , established in the first Multiple ; The Double . The next part The Triple , arises from The Number 3 Itself , following immediately behind The Double . This Progression ends at the Number 729 , providing the extremity or “limbs” to the Whole . The body of The Whole is provided by the very first ratio to arise from the combination of 2 and 3 , The Sesquialter Ratio .Thus this Whole is made up of all Primary parts . But consider how well the parts are “mixed” together in a well-ordered , unperturbed and most harmonious union :

First comes 64 , 6 degrees removed from Unity . 1 2 3 4 5 6 96/64 144/96 216/144 324/216 486/324 729/486common denominator 32 <16> 48 <24> 72 <36> 108 <54> 162 <81> 243 <difference> 3x32=96 3x48=144 3x72=216 3x108=324 3x162=486 3x243=729 2x32=64 2x48=96 2x72=144 2x108=216 2x162=324 2x243=486 Next comes 32 , 5 degrees removed from Unity . 1 2 3 4 5 48/32 72/48 108/72 162/108 243/162common denominator 16 <8> 24 <12> 36 <18> 54 <27> 81 3x16=48 3x24=72 3x36=108 3x54=162 3x81=243 2x16=32 2x24=48 2x36=72 2x54=108 2x81=162 Next comes 16 , 4 degrees removed from Unity . 1 2 3 4 24/16 36/24 54/36 81/54common denominator 8 <4> 12 <6> 18 <9> 27 3x8=24 3x12=36 3x18=54 3x27=81 2x8=16 2x12=24 2x18=36 2x27=54

Next comes 8 , 3 degrees removed from Unity . 1 2 3

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12/8 18/12 27/18common denominator 4 <2> 6 <3> 9 3x4=12 3x6=18 3x9=27 2x4=8 2x6=12 2x9=18

Next comes 4 , 2 degrees removed from Unity . 1 2 6/4 9/6common denominator 2 <1> 3 3x2=6 3x3=9 2x2=4 2x3=6

Next comes 2 , 1 degree removed from Unity . 1 3/2Common Denominator , 1 . 3x1=3 2x1=2

Indeed , one might even be inclined to call it Extraordinarily (Beautiful , Elegant and Excellent or as Nicomachus most Appropriately called it , A Divine Device ! Let us pick up the Philebus again where we left off and perhaps we can trustingly say that we must not mix all pleasures together , especially the harmful outlaw pleasures with that legitimate pleasure which is harmless and truly desirable !Soc: 39 Let them be set loose : And again one must turn towards the fountain of pleasures . Since the way we were considering of mixing them , by first taking up The True Parts of knowledge did not turn out successful for us , but because of the fondness of all knowledge we let the multitude flow e into These before any of the pleasures . Pro: What you say is most true . (Soc: Surely then the hour has come for us two to consider about the pleasures , whether we must dismiss all the same mob , or must we first let flow as many of these that are The True Ones .Pro: There is indeed a great difference in regards to safety by first letting loose The True ones .Soc: Let Them flow then . But what thereafter ? If there exist any pleasures that are necessary , should we not mix them together with These , just as we did with those ?’Pro: Why not then ? Presumably by being The necessary ones , we must indeed . ’ Soc: And if indeed then just as we said that it was harmless and beneficial to know all the arts

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throughout our life , and now then say the same about pleasures , if indeed they are wholly advantageousand harmless for us to enjoy all pleasures throughout our life , then one must mix them all together .

Was it not discovered in the Second Alcibiades that it was indeed not harmless to “know” all the arts when the case of Margites was examined ? jfb]

Pro: Surely then , In what manner shall we speak about these pleasures themselves ?And what shall we do ? Soc: It is not necessary for us to answer , O Protarchus , whereas the pleasures and The Mindful themselves must search out by questioning one another about such matters .bPro : What shall they ask ? (The Mindful: O Dear friends , we ask , whether you are called pleasures or any other name at all , would you not certainly choose to live together with all The Mindful rather than to live apart from Them ? Soc: I believe there is but one absolutely necessary reply for these to reply to Them . ’Pro: What should it be ? ( The Pleasures: Just as what was said before that “It is neither possible for any Genus to be Singularly “Alone and Unalloyed nor is it in any way Profitable ; but it is most certainly the case of All The Genera ’ when comparing one with another , that We are led to think that it is Best that The Perfect Recognition 63c should Live together in Us of all other Genera and of Our Own Selves as far as each of these is possible .” ”Pro: And we shall declare “You have now answered well indeed.” K”” Soc: Correctly so . So then in turn we might question The Mindful and Intellect with this question :“Which of the pleasures , if any , do you need in the mixture ?” Then in turn Intellect and The Mindful “” might likely reply by asking , “What kind of pleasures do you mean ?”“;” Pro: That is likely . ( Soc: Then indeed , for our part of the discussion we shall ask the following . d’“Along with those True Pleasures , do you still need the greatest and the most intense pleasures

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“’to live together with you ?” ”And They may likely reply : “And how can that be , O Socrates , for besides the innumerable hindrances “’they hold for us , perturbing the souls in which they dwell through maddening pleasures , and from the very beginning they do not make it possible for us to be born , but that for the most part those of our arts that are born are utterly destroyed , through the careless forgetfulness they engender ? e’Whereas The True and Pure Pleasures which you mentioned , you must Lawfully consider Them ’as living close to Us , and also those that follow after Health and Soundness of Mind , and even moreas many that are The Handmaidens of Virtue , that always closely attend after Her in every way , just as if She were of a Divine Nature . These mix in . Whereas in the case of the other pleasures , ’that always follow after mindlessness and all other types of vice , it would certainly be irrational for’Intellect to have the desire to be mixed up in this , by Seeing that one must attempt to learn What in the world is The Good for one and for all human-beings who intend to be Naturally-Disposed towards The Most Beautiful and The Most Unperturbed Mixture or Composition and at some time intuitively-perceive what The Idea Itself of The Good Is .” ”Accordingly then shall we not say that these replies are Mindful and Resourceful that Intellect ’Himself has now made in behalf of Himself and Memory and Right Opinion ?Pro: Yes , entirely so . (Soc: But certainly the following is also necessary , and without which not even one thing ’could ever come into existence . Pro: What is it ? Soc: That in which there exists no admixture of Truth , could never come to be nor could ever exist .bPro: How could it ? (

Soc: 40 Not in any way ! But if any part in This Commixture still stands in need , then you and

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’Philebus must speak of it . Since as far as I am concerned the account is now complete ; for it appears just as if it were a certain Incorporeal Kosmic Order which Nobly Rules an ensouled body .Pro: Now then , O Socrates , say that it also appears to me in this way . Soc: Notice then , if we say that we are now already standing in The Portals of The House of The Good c’ would we likely be speaking correctly in a certain way of such matters . Pro: It appears to me that we would indeed . Soc: Surely then what Element in The Commixture would appear to us to be Most Precious and at the same time The Special Cause of why such a Disposition of Parts becomes Beloved/Dear’ to all ? For having seen this , then we will examine whether It will combine with pleasure or ’ with Intellect ; by being more naturally akin and by being more naturally at home in every way . Pro: Correctly so ; for this is most profitable to us in making our choice . dSoc: And it is also most certainly not difficult at all to see The Cause through which it becomes ’anything whatsoever whether entirely Precious or absolutely in no way at all Precious . Pro: In what way do you mean this ? (Soc: Surely there is not one human-being that is ignorant of this .Pro: Of what ? ( ;) Soc: That any commixture whatsoever and any nature whatsoever , that does not happen to have Measure and Symmetry , must necessarily ruin its ingredients , but it must first ruin Its Very Wholeness , For it is truly no mixture , but an intemperate storm-tossed mass , and is truly the very same condition e which befalls every single one of its possessors that are carried along with it . [Like the storm-debris-filled , flooded mountain rivers , described by Homer which Plato alluded to . jfb]Pro: Most true . (Soc: Now surely then , for us The Power of The Good has taken refuge in The Nature of The Beautiful

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For it is clear beyond a doubt that Measure and Symmetry coincide in every way so as to becomeBeautiful and Excellent/Virtuous .Pro: Entirely so . (.) Soc: And we certainly said that The Truth was indeed Commingled in the mixture with These . . Pro: Most certainly indeed . (.) Soc: Is it not the case then , that if we are not able to hunt down The Good with One Idea , then let us catch it with three : Beauty and Symmetry and Truth , and let us say that we would most Properly regard This Triad , considered as One , as The Cause , and ’’it is through The Presence of such as These in The Commixture , that This Triad Itself has Come to Be . Pro: Most Properly so . .

Soc: 41 Now then , O Protarchus , anyone of us would already be a sufficient judge concerning pleasure and Mindfulness ; in regards to which of these two is more naturally akin bto Nobility and more Precious among human-beings and Divinity .Pro: Thus on the one hand that is clear , but nevertheless it is better to go completely through the account .’ Soc: Now then , let us choose from The Three individually in relation to pleasure and Intellect . For it is necessary to see , to which of the two we must assign each of Them as being more akin .Pro: Are you talking about Beauty and Truth and Moderation ?Soc: Yes . Let us indeed then first take Truth , O Protarchus , and grasping it , look into The Three ; Intellect and Truth and pleasure , taking plenty of time to answer yourself ,

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c whether pleasure or Intellect is more naturally akin to Truth . Pro: Why must I take any time ? For great , I think , is the difference . For on the one hand , pleasure is altogether the greatest imposter , and thus as the story goes , in the pleasures concerned with aphrodisiacs , which are surely reputed to be the greatest , , even perjury is excused by the acknowledgement of the gods , just as if the pleasures were children devoid of mind who do not possess the smallest amount of sense . Whereas on the other hand , Intellectis either The Same as Truth or of all Beings , the most Like The Truth and The Most True . dSoc: Is it not the case then , that the next one after this that you must consider in the same way is Moderation , to see whether pleasure possesses more of It than Mindfulness or Mindfulness than pleasure . Pro: This one is indeed also easy to consider that has been put forward for consideration . For on the one hand , I think that nothing in nature could be discovered more immoderate than pleasure and its excessive joys , but on the other hand , no one could ever discover anything ’more Full of Measure than Intellect and Knowledge . Soc: Well said . But nevertheless , still tell us about The Third . Does Intellect partake of more e’Beauty than the genera of pleasure , so that for us Intellect is more Beautiful than pleasureor is the opposite the case ? Pro: But as for the opposite being the case for Mindfulness and Intellect ,O Socrates , no one whatsoever , neither awake nor asleep , never saw nor envisioned , not ever ’’nor in any way , neither becoming , nor being , nor will They ever be ugly/foul/deformed/defective . Soc: Rightly so . ( Pro: But the pleasures on the other hand , and virtually all the greatest ones indeed , whenever we see anyone at all enjoying them , or observe their ridiculous aspect or the absolute ugliness that ’accompanies them , we feel ashamed and remove them from sight and we cover them up as much as

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possible , giving all such things to the dark of night , since they need not see the light of day . Soc: Surely then you shall proclaim to everyone , O Protarchus , by means of conveying by messengersand by declaring to those present , that pleasure does not take first place nor in turn second place ,’but on the one hand , The Eternal Nature has chosen that First Place in a certain way , belongs to Measure and That which is Within Measure and In The Right Time and Place , and All Such Aspects that must be Esteemed to be Like These . Pro: To me at least , this is clear from what has now been said .Soc: Certainly in turn , Second place , belongs to The Symmetrical and The Beautiful , band to The Perfect and Sufficient and to all such Aspects that belong to This Genus . ’Pro: Yes indeed , so it appears . . Soc: Now then , if you were to give Intellect and Mindfulness The Third Place , you will not overstep in any way much from The Truth , as I prophesy . Pro: That is equally true ( .Soc: Take notice then , will we not give The Fourth Place to those aspects which belong ’to The Soul Herself , the knowledges and arts and also those called right opinions , these arec ’fourth after the first three , if indeed they are truly more akin to The Good than pleasure ? Pro: That would probably be the case . ( Soc: Now then , will we give The Fifth Place to those pleasures which were set apart as painless , having defined them as being the pure pleasures of The Soul Herself , which accompanyknowledge but also the perceptions ? Pro: That is equally true . ( Soc: “But in the sixth generation” says Orpheus “end the well-ordered song : ” . “” “”it can also be ventured that our account has come to an end at the choice for Sixth Place .Surely then , along with these choices , nothing remains for us except to give the speeches d

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a crown as it were . . Pro: Yes , we must do so . (

Soc: 42 Come along then , let us call for the third time upon the same reasoning , as our witness before Zeus The Savior . As premised at the beginning of the dialogueThus binding beginning to end Pro: What reasoning then ( ? Soc: Philebos declared pleasure to be the good , for us in all respects and entirely .Pro: Apparently , O Socrates , when you said the third time just now , you meant that we must again take up the account from the beginning . Soc: Yes , but let us indeed hear what follows after this . For just as even now I was looking over ethe discussion in detail -and being unable to endure the doctrine not only of Philebus but also of others of an altogether innumerable multitude- propose that Intellect is indeed by far Nobler and more Better for the life of human-beings than pleasure is . Pro: It happened in this way . ( Soc: But suspecting that there are also many other options indeed , I propose that if anything should be brought to light that is Nobler than both of these , I would support Intellect in the struggle against pleasure for Second Place but that pleasure would also fall short of Second Place . Pro: 67 Thus you also said ( .Soc: And after this it was brought to light altogether most sufficiently indeed that neither of these two was sufficient . Pro: Most True .(.)Soc: Is it not absolutely the case that in this account both Mind and pleasure were indeed alternately taken-up and consequently did not measure up to The Good since neither of them was The Good Itself , by being devoid of Self-Sufficiency and of The Power of Sufficiency and Perfection ? Pro: Most True . (Soc: But indeed when another Third Contender more powerful than either one of these

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was brought to light , truly at that time Mind was revealed in turn immeasurably more closely at home and more naturally akin to The Idea of Being Victorious . <By Virtue of Soundness-Healthiness> Pro: How could it not be the case ?( Soc: Is it not the case then that in accordance to the decision which the account has now brought to light , The Power of Pleasure would be The Fifth . ’Pro: That is likely . ( Soc: But indeed not The First , not even if all the oxen and horses and all the beasts b’altogether in their pursuit of enjoyment would say so : The many , trusting in them , just as diviners in birds , choose the pleasures for their life as being by far the best - and they imagine - that the lusts of the beasts are more authoritative witnesses , than each of the Divine Inspirations of Reason in The Philosophic Muse . Pro: We declare , O Socrates , that what you have presently said , is in every way most True .Soc: Thus is it not the case that you must let me go ? ( Pro: There is yet a little left , O Socrates , for surely I presume you will not give up before us ; so will you let me remind you of that which remains . The End of The Philebus What then remains to be said ? Could it be that Fourth Place was not overtly given to Mind , even though Fifth Place was manifestly placed on The Head of the Legitimate Offspring of Pleasure : The Divine Inspirations Reasoned in The Divine Port of The Philosophic Muse ? Furthermore , could it be that Protarchus saw that Socrates gave Fourth Place to “things that belong to The Soul Herself – Knowledges , Arts , and Right Opinion (66c)” and that thus clarification was called for in naming Knowledges , Arts and Right Opinion – Mind – as being the Truly Sound Elements that make It up ? Yes , O Socrates , You are now free to go and follow The Sun ! For You have now shown us The Place and Value of The Temperate Tunes .

But before I let you readers go , let me relate to you another wonderful story that according to Alcibiades , “the enduring man did” as Minister and Follower of Apollo , so that we can see words and acts in full conformity to Mindfulness and Truth . Remember how Protarchus described those deeds that should be given to the darkness of Night (and keep in mind that it is Protarchus that said this) as undeserving to see the Light of Day (66) ? Well then , listen to an actual instance of such a situation , as is Providentially related with all candor , by our dear friend , Alcibiades : The W.H.D.Rouse translation , Mentor Books 1956 (Edited by JFB) The Symposium 217

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“I thought he was “in earnest” over my youthful bloom , I thought I had found a Godsend and a wonderful piece of luck , in that by “gratifying” Socrates , I had the chance to hear all he knew ; I thought a lot of my blooming beauty , you know , an awful lot .

With this notion – you see , before that , I never used to visit him alone without an attendant – but after that , I sent my attendant away and always went in alone ; for I must tell you all The Truth . ‘Now Socrates , attend and refute me , if I tell a lie.’ .Well , I paid him visits , gentlemen , I alone and he alone ,and I thought that he would talk to me , as a lover would talk to his darling in solitude , and , I was happy . Nothing came of it , nothing , he just talked as usual , and when we had had a nice day together , he always went off .

Next , I challenged him to gymnastics with me , and I went through it hoping for something then ; well , he exercised with me and we wrestled together often with nobody there .What’s the good of talking : I got nothing by it . Since I was none “the better”

[what then does he want if not a healthy body and why does he not see exercise as an end to that ?]for all that , I resolved to try stronger measures with the man ,

and not to give in after I had undertaken something , but to find out what was behind The Business .So I invited him to dinner with me , exactly like a lover with designs on his beloved .

For a long time he would not even consent to come , but at last , I persuaded him .The first time he came , he wanted to go after dinner . That time I was ashamed [Why?] and let him go ;

but I made my plot again , and after we had dined , I went on talking till late at Night ,and when he wanted to go , I forced him to stay by pretending it was late .

So he rested on the couch next to mine ,where he had dined , and no one else was sleeping in the room , only we two .

So far I could tell my story to anyone ;but what follows you would never have heard me tell , only first ,

“There was Truth in The Wine” , “” [In the past tense ; said in reflection]

as the saying goes – whether without or with children .And secondly , to hide a Socratic deed (of Supermasterful Disdain

(is unjust , I think , for one who has come to sing his praises . [The Design .JFB]

Moreover , I too have felt “the viper’s bite” as the saying goes . You know they say that one who felt it would not tell what it was like , except to other people who have been bitten ,

since they alone would know it and would not be hard on him for what he allowed himself to do and say in his agony .

Well , I have been bitten , by a more painful viper , and in the most painful spot where one could be bitten -The Heart or Soul or whatever it should be called -

struck (and bitten () by his Discourses in Philosophy (, which hang on more fiercely (than a viper , when they seize on a soul young and not

ungenerous , and make it do and say “whatsoever” ([The Truth , no matter how much painful or embarrassing]

-And when I see men like Phaedrus , Agathon , Eryximachos , Pausanias , Aristodemos too , and Aristophanes - Socrates himself , I need not mention - and how many more !

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For you all have shared (in The Philosopher’s Divine Inspirations (and Bacchic Furies (! Thus , you shall all hear : For you will not be hard on what was done then

and what is being said now .But you house-slaves , and anyone else who is uninitiated (and unenlightened (,

clap strong doors on your ears !To be struck and bitten by a viper : The effects caused thereby , known only by fellow-sufferers : : To be “struck and bitten” by The Philosopher’s Discourses : The greater effects caused thereby , Known only by Virile-Initiates (M&F) Truth - Wine

Witnessed Confirmation The Disdainful Supermasterful Deed Through Participation Of Socrates Being Brought to Light (then) The Parallel Existence of Just and unjust deeds and use of language by Alcibiades (Now and Always) The Singularity of Socrates’ Words and Deeds :

Well then , gentlemen , when the lamp was out and the servants outside ,I thought it necessary not to mince ( matters ,

but to say candidly () what I felt (;so I stirred him up , and said , ‘Asleep Socrates?’ ,

‘Not at all.’ (said he . ‘Do you know what I have decided’ , ‘What , precisely’ he asked . ‘I think’ said I ‘that you are the only lover ( I have ever had worthy () of me , and now it

appears that you hesitate () to mention it to me . I’ll tell you what I feel :I consider it very unintelligent (not to please () you in this () ,

and anything else you want that belongs (to me or my friends .For myself , I think nothing more important (than to become the best ()

that I can , and , to help me in this , there is no ally ( more authoritative (than you . Then I should be much more ashamed before the Mindful ( if I did not “please”

such a man , than I should be before the multitude of the mindless () if I did.’

[Surely this shows the “abysmal ignorance” that our dear friend Alcibiades was suffering in , for how could he ever believe that any Soundminded man would allow him to accomplish his abysmally misguided designs and still remain a Mindful person ? But is that not the reason why Alcibiades appealed to us as fellow sufferers and initiates ? Is he not -as an initiate in the Mysteries of Love- following up the Ladder of Love in the way described by Socrates earlier ? Has he not , on the one hand , fallen in love with Socrates as intended , but on the other hand is it not up to The Beloved , Socrates , to show him the most significant difference between the love he feels and The Love that is Proper for them to Share in ? Is not Socrates completely aware of the designs in Alcibiades’ heart and thus has been avoiding all the “traps” that Alcibiades has been preparing for him and has thus covertly let him know that he knows what he is up to and that is why Alcibiades became “ashamed” ? Is it not also the case that thus there is nothing “behind” or parallel to the business of Philosophy ? For if there was ,then Socrates would not be who he is , The Supermasterful Prime Exemplar , impervious to temptation and wholly unable to miss any mark he has set his eye to ! In this case he has set his eye on showing Alcibiades that difference that shows that which is being aimed at ; the low and The High-The Model . JFB] He answered , ironically (dissembling , putting on a pretended ignorance as usual () and quite like himself ( , ‘My dearest Alcibiades , you are really and truly not careless ( at taking a risk ( , if what you say is really true about me , for if

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there is in me some power which can make you better ; you must see some Extraordinary ( Beauty (in me (, Vastly ( Superior ( than your own lovely form ( . If then , you see it there , and , if you are trying to make a mutual deal and exchange ( of beauty for Beauty , you want to take more than you are due () , and take no slight advantage over me , you want to get Real Beauty( for reputed( beauty and indeed exchange “bronze for Gold” [Iliad 6-236] . But , O Blessed one , look better and you will see that I am nothing . The sight of understanding begins to see sharply when the sight of the eyes is losing its edge , and , you , are far from that still .’I heard him , and said ,‘That is what I have to say , and I have said nothing other than what I had in mind ;

it is for you to resolve it and lead us according to what is best for you and for me .’‘That is well said ,’ he answered ,

‘for in the days to come we will consider , and do whatever seems best for us twoin regards to this and other matters .’

When I heard this and said this , and as it were ,shot my shafts , I thought he was wounded ;

so I got up ,and without letting this man say another word ,I threw my own mantle over the man ,and crept in , under this man’s threadbare cloak -for it was Winter-

and , threw my arm’s around this man , this Truly Spiritual () and Wonderful () man and there I lay the whole night !

You will not say that is a lie either , Socrates !But having done all this , yet this man was so Superior (

and so much above (meand so scorned my bloom , in the point where I did think I was something ,

gentlemen of the jury -for jury you are ,to give a verdict on The Supermasterfulness of Socrates-

that I swear by The Goddesses , when I got up ,I had no more slept with Socrates than if I had been with a father or elder brother .

“How do you think I felt after that !On the one hand , I felt I had been dishonored ,

yet on the other hand , I admired The Nature ( of this man ,

[Thus , Socrates has guided Alcibiades up The Ladder of Love , in the right way , accomplishing his own goal of turning Alcibiades’ attention from image thinking of the bodily to the contemplation of the Virtues of the soul Herself .JFB]

and his Soundmindedness and Courage ;and I had happened upon such a human being for Mindfulness and Endurance

as I never expected to come across , so that I could not bring myself to quarrel and lose his company ,nor could I think of any way to attract him . For I knew quite well that he was much less vulnerable

to money than Aias was to steel , and in what I thought would alone win him ,he had escaped me . So , I was at a loss , and I walked about a slave to the man ,

as no one ever was to anyone .’ 219e At this point I hope to explain what I meant by “The parallel existence of just and unjust deeds and use of language by Alcibiades as compared to The Singularity of Socrates’ Words and Deeds” as most clearly described by Proclus in his Commentary on The First Alcibiades :

“In all these respects , you , by your boasting , have overpowered your lovers , and they , being inferior , were overcome ; and this has not escaped you . For this reason I am well aware that you wonder for what purpose I do not give up my Love and possessed by what hope , I remain , when the rest have fled .” 1st Alc.104c

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Again through these words it should become clear to us how The Inspired Lover is completely different from the common and vulgar lovers . the latter , priding themselves on small matters , have been overpowered by the young man , vanquished by more refined emotions; for they were , as he himself says , “inferior” , starting from below , and as it were , from matter , and striving to drag the young man down to it . But The Former , showed plainly the emptiness of his prideful boasting , reducing all this apparent “high-mindedness” , to the lowest form of ignorance and the lack of knowledge of oneself . The difference between them is adequately shown by the fact that the one set are termed “runaways” as being emotional , ignoble and cowardly lovers , but The Other does not relinquish his Love , but is “Courageous and Zealous and High-Minded” (Sym 203d)and Truly akin to his God . That this has happened is reasonable . For the soul is Midway between Intellect and bodily nature . Thus , when It regards Intellect and what is Beautiful There , Its Love is Stable , as being United through Similarity to THE IMMOVABLE and UNCHANGEABLE , for Intellect has both Its Being and Activity , Fixed in ETERNITY . But when it regards bodies and the beauty therein , its love becomes externally moved and changes along with its object , for such is the body , I mean externally moved and easily changed .

“When It regards Intellect”

“when it regards the body” “wanders amid all kinds of change.”

Holding a Midway position , then , and of Its own motion tending towards both , at one time , It becomes like The Unmoved and Always the Same , at another , like the externally moved , wandering amid all kinds of change . Reasonably then , The Inspired Lover , who reaches up towards The Stable and Fixed Kind of Beauty , certainly does not relinquish his Love ; for he lays no claim to bodily flux ; but the earthborn and materially-minded lover is full of the wandering changes of The Process of Becoming . For which reason , he too is fickle and changeable , since the reason for his love is changeable beauty ; and it is never Lawful for effects to escape from their Causes and rise superior to The Nature of the latter . Since then , even when Causes are ordered , their effects spring forth in disorder , and their products are in movement when They are stable , indeterminate though They are determined , what should one say about these very effects whose causes even are disordered , changeable and indeterminate? Surely that they are much more carried away into indeterminacy and change of all kinds? If therefore beauty that is sensibly perceived and involved in matter is liable to change and mobility , what should one say of the love that is implanted in souls as a result of it ? Now this could not be otherwise . For the same reason we must observe that Divine Love is an Activity , wanton love , a passivity ; The One is Co-ordinate with Intellect and Divine Beauty , the other , with bodies ; and the aspect of Activity is Appropriate to Immaterial Forms , but of passivity to those involved in matter , since to Act is characteristic of Incorporeal Beings , but to be acted upon , of bodies . These loves , then , are opposed to each other , since one is Stable , the other changeable , one Active , the other passive , one Immaterial , the other material , one “Inspired” , the other “wanton” (.

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It was thus , I think , that Socrates termed it in The Phaedrus (254e) and The Oracles call it “a stifling of True Love” . Now what is the reason for the opposition between these loves ? The descent in the scale of things.(Consider Proclus’ The Elements of Theology Prop.63) Procession , beginning from On High , ceases when it has got as far as those things which , can both change and make to subsist , along with themselves , some sort of aberration .

Take what is Just for instance : In the One case (1) , It is Primarily Just , The Absolute Just , not Just by Participation . In the next case (2) , there is That which Primarily and Always Participates in The Preceeding . Then (3) there is that which sometimes Participates in It , but at other times falls away from Participation .

Primarily Always Just now

matter sterility falls away unjust later ugly later (2) Socrates (3) Alcibiades the many unequal later

It was neither Fitting that The Absolute Just (1) should Rule in sterility , giving nothing a Share in Its Own Specific Nature (None of The Primary Existents is like that , but sterility is Appropriate to matter alone as the lowest of beings) nor that , when Participated by others (2) , It should be Primarily Participated by intermittent Participants (for what is composite and changeable is completely alien to what is Simple and Unchanging and requires some Middle Link to be United to It) , nor that (3) when Participated by Beings [like Socrates] capable of Constant Irradiation , It should bring The Gift of Itself , to a halt at this point ; in order that the end term might not be that which is always attached to The First Principles . Thus , we must , look upon Absolute Justice , in three ways , and not only that , but also All The Other Forms ; Absolute Beauty ,The Equal , The Like , Each One of The Others , and call some Absolute , some Participants , and , discern the by-products among those “third from The Truth” . Nothing can subsist parallel either to The Simple Beings or to the Constant Participants . In the one case (1) , Simplicity , and in the other case (2) Perpetuity of Participation prevents (3) parallel existence . The inferior , then , must come into parallel existence with the third class , the intermittant participants , the unjust with the just at this level , the ugly with the beautiful , the unequal with the equal . In this way , then , love is threefold ; One , Absolute and Primary , One , Perpetually Participated and one intermittantly Participated . Thus , alongside this third kind of love , wanton love has come to subsist , and therefore it is opposed to it , sets opposite ends , employs different aims and sets its roots in opposing ways of life .” Proclus : Alcibiades I A Translation and Commentary by William O’Neill M.A.Ph. D. USC – Martinus Nijhoff –The Hague-1965 Edited by JFB

Would you agree , then , that Socrates is the Supermasterful Exemplar of one being “Constantly Irradiated” and thus “Perpetually Participating” in Divine Goodness and as such would not Socrates , like the number 729 , be a “Well-ordered , unperturbed and most harmoniously united” man and thus also

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share in the description given to the calculation realizing the number 729 by Glaucon in The Republic and by Socrates himself in The Symposium : Extraordinary - And was not this , what Socrates Prayed for at the end of The Phaedrus , that is , for the outer person to coincide with the inner one ? And would you agree that if the outer person thus coincides with the inner one , then , life in that city would be Well-Disposed and Singular-in-Purpose , living within The Unswerving Rule of Justice and no longer “storm battered” by parallel aberrations ? And , on the other hand , did not Alcibiades present himself as an example of the “hubristou hippou” , the wanton horse and its parallel existence -opposite to The Noble Horse ; his neglected better half- to his cup-fellows through his opening up of his innermost feelings and desires by his description of what he said and did then as opposed to how he sees his folly now ? And has not Alcibiades done this for our sake and , as he said , for the sake of Justice , that is , for the sake of the whole , for through his praise of Socrates , he has given us A Perfect Model of Virtue , to follow , as near as possible , and through his Soundmindedly honest view of himself he has shown us that those feelings that we would rather not let see the light of day , must be brought to light , for then “The Truth shall set us free” , just as his confession , surely set him free in front of that group of fellow initiates and participants and also thus placed the capstone on Socrates’ own speech by showing that Socrates not only had the beautiful words but also the beautiful deeds belonging to those Partaking in the Lesser and Greater Mysteries of Love ? Furthermore does not the relationship here presented to us between Socrates and Alcibiades also exemplify the Teacher\student , Master\slave , Physician\patient , Priest\member relationship ? And has this not been presented as an ongoing tradition by Socrates at the very beginning of his speech ? And if we view Socrates as a Priest/Physician , that is , a healer of the whole man , of the soul and body as he presented himself in The Charmides and The Theatetus , then by Alcibiades opening up his soul to the view of his fellow initiates , for them to see , not only the way that he was affected by Socrates but also by the demos (the commonality ofcitizens) and its multifarious , sickness causing influences ? And , in view of this , consider what Socrates proposed and proved to the young Polus in The Gorgias 472e that : “According to my opinion , O Polus , the wrongdoing and unjust man is altogether wretched ; but even more wretched , if he is neither brought to Justice nor happens to be corrected for his wrongdoing , but on the other hand , less wretched if he is brought to Justice and meets with the requital(from Gods and men .” Then , by Alcibiades opening up his soul , in a sportive way , he has submitted himself for correction so that he can be truly brought to the kind of Justice that can never harm Rep 335 and the kind of correction whose “penalty” is to “learn from the Wise” Rep 337 . Yet here lies the problem . Will Alcibiades continue the correction to its completion and thus to open up and explore his inner self with the aid (of The Master ; Socrates , or will he give in to the call of the many , forgetting to focus upon that which is truly Desirable ? For consider what Alcibiades says at the beginning of his speech [Minus all his parenthetical explanations that I have edited out . JFB]: “…then it is his Tunes , which alone enravish and make us plain , those of us who feel the need of The Gods and Their Mysteries , because the Tunes are Divine . We at least when we hear someone else making other speeches , even quite a good orator , not one of us cares at all , I might say , but when one hears you or your words recited by another , we are overwhelmed and enravished . When I hear them , my heart goes leaping worse than frantic revellers’ , and tears run from my eyes at the words of this man , and I see crowds of others in the same state . When I heard Pericles , and other good orators , I thought them fine speakers , but I felt nothing like that, and no confusion in my soul or regret for my slavish condition ; but this Marsyas here , has brought me , very often , into such a condition that I thought the life I lead was not worth living . And even now at this moment , I know in my conscience that if I would open my ears , I could never hold out , but I should be in the same state . [! Therefore he has closed his “ears” to Socrates and thus still remains a slave! JFB] For he compels me [or is it The Truth ! JFB] to admit that I am very remiss , in going on neglecting my own self , but attending to the Athenian public business . So I force myself , and stop my ears and I go off running as from The Sirens , [Poor wretch is upside down , for he should consider the demos as The Sirens not Socrates .JFB] otherwise , I should sit down on the spot , beside him , till I become an old man . I feel towards this one man , something which no one , would ever

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think could be in me ; to be ashamed before anybody . But I am ashamed before him and before no one else . For I know in my conscience that I cannot contradict him , and , say it is not my duty to do what he tells me [As his Master , Teacher , Physician , Priest . JFB] , yet when I leave him , public applause is too much for me . So , I show my heels and run from him , and , whenever I see him , I am ashamed of what I confessed to him . Often enough , I should be glad to see him no longer among mankind ; but if that should happen , I am certain , I will be even sorrier still , so I do not know what to do with the fellow .” [Thus , our poor wretched friend , is also a runaway . JFB]

But , let us refocus our attention upon our Hero , Socrates ,and let us pick up The Symposium where we left off earlier at 219e :

‘Well , all this happened before our expedition went to Potidaea ; we were both in it , and we were messmates there . And first of all , in bearing hardships , he not only surpassed ( me , but everyone else ; when we were cut off somewhere , and had to go without food , as happens on campaign , the others were nothing for endurance (. Yet , when there was plenty of good cheer (to be had) , he was the only one who could really enjoy it ; particularly when he was forced to drink , for he did not care for drinking , he prevailed over them all , and what is most Wonderful of all , no man at all has ever seen Socrates drunk . [Always Sober and Awake ! JFB] That we shall be able to test presently , as I believe . But that was not all ; in his endurance (of the cold Winter -the Winters (were dreadful ( there- he did Wonders , and here is an instance : Once , there was a most dreadful frost ,and we all preferred not to go out of doors , or if we did , we put on an awful lot of things , and swathed our legs , and wrapped our feet in felt and sheepskin , but this man , went out in that weather wearing only such a cloak as he used to wear before , and unshod , he marched over the ice more easily than others did with boots on . But the soldiers , glanced angrily at him , thinking that he scorned them ! [What would happen to any one of us that would try to do this for even a few hours -even though Socrates completed the whole campaign in his familiar habitude ? How about hypothermia , general frostbite and followed closely by being frozen to death ! Is not this difference further exemplified by that extraordinary calculation of 729 : 9 : : 81 : 1 ! JFB] So much for that ; but once on that campaign , “here’s another daring deed the enduring man did ”, Odyssey 4-242 and it is well worth hearing . For being self-immersed in thought (, there he stood on one spot from Dawn ( , contemplating (and when it did not work out (for him , he would not be distressed () but stood there searching ( . It was already Midday (, and the men noticed it , and wondered and said to one another that Socrates had been standing , thinking (about something ever since Dawn . At last when Evening (came , some of the Ionians after dinner - for it was Summertime (then - brought out their bedding and slept near in the cool , and watched him from time to time , to see if he would stand all night , he did stand , until it was Dawn and The Sun arose ; then he offered a Prayer to The Sun (and walked away .”

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PHAEDRUS (1) The Well-Matched , Divine Harmonious ImpulsesParagraph 26 and (2) the ill-matched , earth-bound discordant impulses

The natural function of The Wing is to Lead that which is heavy

by Lifting it Above , to Where The Genus of The Gods Dwell .

Thus this function has more in common with The Divine

than all the other functions pertaining to the body

Since The Divine

is Beautiful , Wise and Good e

and All Such-like Essences ,

surely then , The Plumage of The Soul is indeed nourished by These

and especially made to grow ,

but by their opposites , such as vileness/ugliness and vice ,

they are dissolved and destroyed .

Surely then , on the one hand , when The Great Leader in Heaven ,

Zeus , Driving A Winged Chariot , Proceeds First

Arranging and Caring for All ,

thus being Followed by The Army of The Gods and Holy-Spirits , ’

Having Been Arranged according to Eleven Divisions ;

for Hestia Alone Remains in The House of The Gods ;

while the remaining Other Ruler Gods who are Twelve in Number , Lead Their Divisions ,

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Each One , according to The Order which was Appointed .

Therefore , on the one hand , there were Many Blessed Visions as well as Orbits within Heaven ,

Along which The Blessed Genus of The Gods Turn-Round ,

Each One Attending to Their Own Duty ,

thus it is always the case , that whosoever Wishes , and is Able , Follows ,

for jealousy lies outside The Divine Chorus .

Surely then , when They go to Feast and to Banquet ,

They Proceed Upwards to The Summit Under The Arch of Heaven , b

which surely , on the one hand , The Chariots of The Gods ,

Being Well-matched are Obedient to the rein , and Proceed in an easy manner ,

whereas on the other hand , the others proceed with difficulty ;

for the horse partaking of depravity , becomes heavy ,

which has not been properly disciplined by the charioteers ,

and is indeed inclined and weighed-down towards The Earth ;

and surely therein awaits the most extreme toil and struggle for the soul .

For on the one hand , Those that are called Immortal ,

whenever They reach The Summit ,’

They Proceed Outside ,

and take Their Place upon The Outer Surface of Heaven ,c

and thus , Taking Their Place ,

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They are Taken-Round Its Circumference ,

and thus , They Behold Those Beings Outside of Heaven .

Paragraph 27 The Region Above

But The Super-Celestial Place

has not ever yet been Worthily Praised , nor ever will be Praised , ’

by any of those poets from here

but It has to be in the following way .

For I must therefore indeed dare to speak The Truth ,

especially since it is also The Truth I am speaking about .

For It is The Colorless and Shapeless and Intangible Truly Essential-Being

concerning Which , The Genus of True Knowledge Keeps/Maintains/Holds This Place

which is only Visible to The Intellect , The Pilot of The Sould

Therefore , inasmuch as The Divine Understanding ’

and That of every soul

is Nurtured by Intellect and Undefiled/Faultless/Untainted Knowledge

by as much as It may be able to receive That which is Proper ,

It is Well-disposed in Seeing Reality and in Contemplating The Truth ,

and , for a period of Time , It Rejoices ,

until The Circular Revolution should bring It back-again to The Same Place .

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Thus , in That Revolution It Beholds on the one hand , Righteousness Itself ,

and on the other hand , It Beholds Soundmindedness Itself ,

Furthermore It Beholds Knowledge Itself ,

not indeed the knowledge that is derived from generation ,

which we now call “real”e

nor that which exists at one time in one way ’

and exists at another time in another way ,

but The Knowledge that Abides in That which is Truly Real :

and in the same way , It Speculates and Feasts upon

The Other Truly Real Beings ,

re-entering again Inside/Within The Heaven , It Returns Home ,

then Its Charioteer returns the horses to the manger

setting-up ambrosia for them to feed-upon

and ambrosial nectar for them to drink .’

Paragraph 28 The Region BelowAnd so , on the one hand , Such is The Life of The Gods :

but on the other hand , of the lives of the other souls ,

on the one hand , that life which is best ,

follows and resembles Divinity ,

by super-elevating the head/intellect of the charioteer into The Outer Place ,

and it is carried round together in That Revolution ,

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and being troubled/confused by the horses , barely catches sight of The Realities ,

Thus on the one hand , at certain times that life rises-up ,

but on the other hand , at other times it plunges-down ’

thus , by being over-powered by the horses

it sees some Realities , but not Others . ’

Surely then , on the one hand , all the other souls follow after ,

yearning for The Upper Region ,

but on the other hand , they are unable to do so , being carried round underwater ,

trampling and casting spears at one another , b

the one being pierced quite through by the other .

Therefore , the trouble and the contest for superiority and the sweat are extreme ,

and surely because of which , many souls are maimed on the one hand ,

and on the other hand , many wings of many souls are broken ,

by the deficiency of the charioteers : :

then after having undergone much toil they all go away

without gaining The Vision of Reality ,

and having departed they use opinion for nourishment .

Thus , for the sake of which , there is much eagerness’’

to see where The Plain of Truth is ,

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surely then , either that which is Proper Pasturage for the best part of the soul ,

happens to be from That Meadow ,

or that from This Meadow , the nature of the wing is nourished ,

by which the soul is enabled to ascend . c

And The Following , is The Order/Law of Adrasteia/Destiny ;

-The Best Life for The Soul (The One)-whatsoever soul following along with Divinity that has beheld Any of The Realities ,

shall be free from harm

until another period comes to be ,

and if it is always able to accomplish This Vision ,

then it shall always be unharmed .

-All other souls/lives (The Many)- But when through the inability to follow after , it fails to see ,

and through some misfortune it is subject to being filled with forgetfulness

and vice , it grows heavy , then , having grown heavy ,

it losses its wings and falls to the earth ;

at that time -in its first birth- it is The Law d

that this soul shall not be implanted into any bestial nature .

Thus , on the one hand , the soul that has seen the most ,

shall enter into the birth of a masculine nature of one who is to be a philosopher

or a lover of Beauty or a lover of Music and devoted to the matters of Love ,

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whereas on the other hand , the soul that is second shall enter into

a Law-abiding , or a Warrior King ,

the third shall enter into a politician , or a businessman or a money-maker ,

the fourth shall enter into a hard-working gymnast , or one concerned with healing the body ,

the fifth shall be the life of a prophet or one concerned with mystic rites . 248e

The sixth , shall be harmonized to that of a poet or some other imitative artist ,

---the seventh , to a craftsman or a husbandman ,

the eighth , to a sophist or a man/woman of the people ,

the ninth , to a tyrant .

17 “ Shrill Winds Emitting , Through The Syrinx famed .” According to Pythagorean and Platonic Theology , which are perfectly conformable to that of Orpheus , APOLLO is in The Superkosmic what ZEUS is in The Intellectual Order .

ZEUS : The Intellectual Order : : ILLUMINATES

APOLLO : Superkosmic Order : : Illuminates Kosmic Natures .

For as the former Illuminates Kosmic Natures with Superkosmic Light , so too , the latter Illuminates The Superkosmic Order with Intellectual Light . Indeed , there is such a Wonderful agreement between These Two Divinities , that the Cyprian Priests , as we are informed by the emperor Julian , in his most excellent “Oration to The Sovereign Sun” , raised common Alters to ZEUS and THE SUN . Hence we cannot wonder that the same thing is here asserted of APOLLO which Orpheus elsewhere asserts of ZEUS . For Johan. Diaco. In Hesiod’s Theogony quotes the following lines from Orpheus : ZEUS is The God of All and Mingler of All Things ; Blowing Panspipes

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And Voices Mingled with Air [Translated by JFB]

18 “Since to Thy Care The Figur’d Seals Consigned” In the preceding note we have mentioned the profound UNION which Subsists between APOLLO and ZEUS . As ZEUS , therefore , considered as THE DEMIURGOS , Comprehends in HIMSELF , The Archetypal Ideas , of all sensible forms , and what these forms are Intellectually in THE DEMIURGOS , They are according to a Superkosmic Characteristic in APOLLO ; hence the latter Divinity , as well as the former , may be said to possess The Figured Seal , of which every visible species is nothing more than an impression .

The Archetypal Ideas : THE DEMIURGOS : In an Intellectual manner , IMPARTIBLY

“The Figur’d Seals” : Apollo “The King” : In a Dianoetic manner , Essentially , Harmonically According to Hyparxis The Impressions of “The Figure’d Seals” : Kosmic natures : in a sensible manner , habitually As a Philosopher or Musician Also consider the following “..it is requisite to survey , how a twofold work of The Demiurgos is here delivered . For He divides the soul into parts , Harmonizes the divided parts , and renders them concordant with each other . But in effecting these things He Energizes , at one and the same time , Dionysiacally and Apolloniacally . For to Divide , and Produce Wholes into parts , and to Preside over The Distribution of Forms , is Dionysiacal ; but to Perfect all things Harmonically , is Apolloniacal . Therefore , as The Demiurgos , He Comprehends in Himself The Cause of both These Gods , He both Divides and Harmonizes the soul .” Proclus , Commentary on The Timaeus 200c

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