Sleep Health General

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/fit/ - Do you even lift?

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AnonymousWed Apr 30 01:00:13 2014 No.26354442 [Reply] [Original]

Quoted by: >>26356576>>26357239

I SUMMON SLEEP SCIENCE GUY,

COME BACK TO /FIT/

AnonymousWed Apr 30 01:00:47 2014 No.26354445

shitposting belongs on /b/


>> /fit/?

task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=&search_subject=&search_username=Sleep+Science+Guy&search_tripcode=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto


>>OP

Oh, hi, that's me, but I forgot my trip... wat do?

Sleep Health General Sleep Science Guy!!Drs0SHNfH0BWed Apr 30 04:40:51 2014 No.26357239

Quoted by: >>26357320>>26357352>>26358239

>>OP

Oh well, I will just make a new tripcode.

this thread is now a Sleep Health General.

What questions do people have?

AnonymousWed Apr 3004:46:38 2014 No.26357320

>>26357239

BY GOD WILL I DEMAND YOU TELL ME YOUR SECRETS!


Quoted by: >>26357478

>>26357239

BASED I KNEW YOU'D HEED THE CALL

You should make more generals, /fit/ has lots of sleep threads, also you had said you were making an infographic I think, how did that come along?

As for questions;

1) I have 5mg melatonin pills, I am wondering if this is too much and what is the dosage you reccomend.

2) For as long as I remember I have been sleeping with one hand under my pillow, however many times I wake up with my hand completely numb and I need to

shake it for a few minutes to feel again. I think this have been fucking with my upper body gains, How do you reccomend having your arms to avoid this from

happening? I have been trying to just sleep with it on the side but it feels awkward.


Quoted by: >>26357565

1) I heard sleeping on back is healthier, is there a method to switching how one sleeps? I've tried staying on my back until I fall asleep, but I always get too tired and

switch to a comfortable position.

2) Probably not sleep related: I feel more creative when tired, I remember an inventor(i think) who would sit in a chair with something in his hand until he fell asleep

and dropped the object, waking him up. He would then proceed to write any ideas down that he had in this super tired state. Is there any science to this?


what is happening i'm scared

Sleep Science Guy!!Drs0SHNfH0BWed Apr 30 04:59:29 2014 No.26357478

Quoted by: >>26357521>>26357562>>26359019

>>26357352

5mg is not too much. Some people who claim they are groggy from taking too much melatonin (normal doses) usually just don't get enough light in the morning to

trigger enzymes that break melatonin down, or activate quicker clearance by the kidneys. I take 9mg per night which is more than most... if you are groggy in the

mornings then have a timer+ lamp turn on 30 minutes before you plan to get up.

As for hand position, I suggest getting a pillow and laying it under your body so you can hug the pillow, which will reduce pressure on your arm compared to

sandwiching your hand between body and materess.

If your arm goes numb from being raised above your head it could be a shoulder impingement caused by loose shoulder muscles/ligaments. Supporting your

shoulder so it doesn't relax into pronation will help reduce shoulder impingement. Or just try sleeping on your side more, or rather than having whole arm under your

pillow just put your hands under the pillow.

Post pictures if you are concerned none of these address your problem, I probably am imagining the wrong thing.


Quoted by: >>26357697

>>26357478

>Pillows
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357478/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357478/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26356576/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26356576/n')http://archive.heinessen.com/fit/?task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=&search_subject=&search_username=Sleep+Science+Guy&search_tripcode=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto=&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=new&search_res=posthttp://archive.heinessen.com/fit#http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357521/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357478/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357467/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357443/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357352/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357320/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357239/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26356576/n')http://archive.heinessen.com/fit/?task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=&search_subject=&search_username=Sleep+Science+Guy&search_tripcode=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto=&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=new&search_res=posthttp://insert%28%27%3E%3E26356098/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26354445/n')http://boards.4chan.org/fit/res/26354442http://archive.heinessen.com/fit/thread/S26354442http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26354442/n')http://archive.heinessen.com/fit/thread/S26354442http://www.google.com/searchbyimage?image_url=http://archive.heinessen.com/boards/fit/thumb/0263/54/1398812413567s.jpghttp://archive.heinessen.com/fit/image/0V8sxqPx5SRE7fqcLMsuNghttps://github.com/eksopl/fuukamailto:[email protected]://archive.heinessen.com/fit/reportshttp://archive.heinessen.com/fit/http://archive.heinessen.com/http://archive.heinessen.com/x/http://archive.heinessen.com/toy/http://archive.heinessen.com/r9k/http://archive.heinessen.com/mlp/http://archive.heinessen.com/k/http://archive.heinessen.com/fit/http://archive.heinessen.com/an/http://archive.heinessen.com/fit#


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Hack confirmed.


Quoted by: >>26357697

>>26357478

sleep with a pillow? lie on side, front or back? best time to go to bed relative to sunlight hours? ideal sleeping time? ideal sleeping time for adolescents (got a son

who stays up late might hurt his growth)? how to maximised REM time during sleep (i tend to dream/wake up intermittently)


Quoted by: >>26357681>>26359493

>>26357443

"Back sleeping is healthy" is one of pseudo-medicine's big guess-lies.You know when a medical/fitness/theraputic professional generalises one situation to the next even though the two situations have little commonality? And they turn

out to be wrong because they were making things up? Yeah, it's like that.

Babies are recommended to sleep on their backs because this reduces Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. But adults don't suffer from sudden death...

Sleeping supine makes your far more likely to suffer from slow wave sleep reduction which causes insulin resistance (and higher rates of type 2 diabetes), greater

subjective day-hunger, poor memory consolidation, higher rates of sleep apnea, sleep paralysis and snoring.

And babies suffering from the same sleeping position have slower motor development, worse social skil ls, weaker posterior chain muscles, greater risk of spinal

deformity and again all the same problems I listed above for adults. But it is offset for babies because they are better having all those risks than randomly and

suddenly dying before they mature!


Quoted by: >>26357741

>>26357565

i assume that sleeping prone or on a side is best then.

when should dionner be eaen relative to sleeping? Is supper a thing our bodies are designed for?


Quoted by: >>26357740>>26358837>>26358899

>>26357521

>>26357562

Sure, you can sleep without pillows! Some people just don't want to change their sleeping position THAT much.

>>26357562

With or without pillow try to lie on side or front. Back sleeping is for nogains.

Assuming a 12h day and 12h night as in near the equator: bed time 2h after dark, if you wake up and muck around in the middle of the night that's fine but don't turn

on all the lights, and get up some after sunrise. Naps in the middle of the day are good for you too.

Sleeping 4h after sundown is not bad but you won't wake up in the middle of the night. If you sleep 6-7h after sundown and only get 5-6.5h sleep then you will need a

midday nap to stay healthy.

If you don't live near the equator you should aim to control your environment so as to provide yourself with a good sleeping environment.

Ideal sleeping total is 7-8h, you can slit it up into 2 or 3 sleeps (night, dawn and noon sleeps provide the best quality sleep).

Sleeping time for adolescents are surprisingly higher than for adults. Yes growth can be effected by poor sleep, hgh and igf is produced during SWS which happens

in the first few hours of sleep so going to bed earlier results in higher daily hgh secretions and potentially more bone growth and muscle repair.

REM sleep is periodic throughout the night but increases over time toward dawn. Teens actually have a forward shifted internal clock (which shifts back duringadulthood) so they need to stay up a little later than adults and sleep in more during the mornings (exposed to sunlight during their sleep in) for best sleep. Teens

getting up early for schools is terrible, I blame a lack of knowledge/care for sleep health, and western disregard and disrespect for sleep.


File: 255 KB, 1124x710, YOURPOWER.jpg [View same] [google]

PEOPLE OF /FIT/ LEND ME

YOUR POWER


Quoted by: >>26358174>>26358605

I literally cannot sleep if there is any noise other than white noise. My mind focuses on it and keeps my attention and it will wake me up. This makes me enraged

and tense and keeps me from falling asleep.

I've resorted to wearing earplugs and keeping fans blowing on me, but if its loud enough outside even earplugs wont fix this.

What do I do? I can't figure out how to fix this, "practicing" sleep without earplugs in just means I don't get any and feel miserable. It has led to hospitalization from

severe mental breakdown due to sleep deprivation.


Quoted by: >>26357808

>>26357697

Thanks for all the info

One last question in regards to adolescent sleep:

How important is the prescence of light during the "sleep in" time.

An adolescent could easily artifically block light say 2 hours earlier than normal to achieve normal sleep patterns relative to adults, but is 2 hour earlier lights on in

the morning a nessecity?


Quoted by: >>26357818

>>26357681

Eating: depends on the type of sleep. You want a well settled stomach for going to sleep at night because the intestinal movements slow down a lot in preparation for

sleep, as during SWS (the first few hours of night sleep) intestinal movement completely stops.

REM sleep and light sleep doesn't do this, intestinal movements remain the same as while awake so you eat lunch and fall asleep for a nap, and can eat in the

middle of the night if you wake up naturally, without ruining sleep quality (theoretically).

Of course, this is probably still subjective, if you can't fall asleep because you are too hungry or too full then go with your intuitions and eat/fast.
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357741/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357740/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357732/n')http://www.google.com/searchbyimage?image_url=http://archive.heinessen.com/boards/fit/thumb/0263/54/1398827924451s.jpghttp://archive.heinessen.com/fit/image/Uhew0npORpAt0qig_HjZEQhttp://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357715/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357697/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357681/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357565/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357562/n')


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I make sure I fast 2h before going to night sleep. Dinner, take melatonin after dinner, 1.5-2h fast, sleep.


Can confirm, back sleeping gives me apnea, side sleeping cures my apnea.

Also, just for fun, back sleeping causes my ol' AC separation to flare up in a weird way - the collarbone sinks into my funnybone if I'm laying on my back, which

causes me to wake up with a numb pinky.


>>26357740

If anything, 2h extra light in the morning is easier than 2h blocked light at night! Imagine trying to shut your teen in his room with blackout curtains and only red-

coloured lights and red-covered computer screens to keep him entertained?! Meanwhile setting up a timer+lamp in the morning is cheap and easy and because he isunconscious when it turns on he won't be bothered by it.

Also, shifted rhythm makes a difference, it's measureable to us lab-workers, but consider this: millions of teens sleep well enough following the same lifestyle as

their parents. But they do tend to have a hard time getting up in the morning, so just give your teen melatonin early, let him stay up til whenever is reasonable, and

give him an hour or two lamp-light in the morning before he gets up.


Quoted by: >>26357915

>>26357741

Theoretically is this right:

1,

Light results in your body producing vitamin d & breaking down melatonin

Lack of ligh results in no production of vitamin d & creation of melatonin

2,

Melatonin makes you sleepy

Vitamin D breaks down melatonin making you not sleepy

Conclusion,

Light and lack of light are derivates effecting chemicals that have a linear impact on your body (prescence of melatonin = sleepy and vice versa). Therefore, through

good artificial control of melatonin and vitamin d levels in the body (through the taking of supplements), one could create a natural sleep cycle in any light conditions,

e.g. if you lived in Finland or were permanently underground or something.

This could be useful for curing all the problems with depression and other diseases in high/low latitude countries


>>26357818

1. no.

there is a difference between light and sunlight. blue and green spectrum light both disrupt melatonin production when detected by sensors in the eye (even through

the skin of your eyelids). Vitamin d requires UVB radiation from the sun (which is not the same as blue or green spectrum light) to hit the skin, where vitamin d is

created and absorbed through the skin. I don't think UVB disrupts melatonin production, but the sun emits both UV and all visible spectrum light.

Theoretically you could run a UV lamp on your back skin, wear a sleep mask in a dark room, and produce both vitamin d and melatonin at the same time... pretty

cool huh?! But silly idea too, hehe.

2. Sort of.

Melatonin makes you drowsy, but not sleepy. IF you are tired then drowsy become sleepy, assuming there are no significant amoutns of competing hormones like

cortisol or adrenalin.

Vitamin D has no effect on your ability to stay awake or fall asleep, though it will decrease quality of sleep if you don't have enough or have too much vitamin D3 in

your blood.

Melatonin has an effect on your body clock (rhythm) but Vitamin D does not, as far as we know.


Quoted by: >>26358108

What's the quick guide to maximal s leep gains?

What do I need to look into buying?

From this thread, I've gathered melatonin and vitamin d.


Clothes and bedsheets, yay or nay? What should one look for in mattreses?


Quoted by: >>26358151>>26358239

>>26357952

>melatonin after dinner

>red led bulb for bedside lamp

>use red lamp 30min minimum before bed

>normal/daylight lamp + timer on other side of room

>day lamp turn on 30min before getting up in the morning

>vitamin d with breakfast

>keep stable blood sugar throught night (slow carbs/protein)

>cure common deficiencies: improve diet or take multi + mag chelate in the meanwhile

If addicted to coffee

>take l-theanine to counteract negative effects on sleep

>or switch to tea

>or switch to decaf

If you want wicked dreams

>wake up after 5-6h sleep

>take supps, meditate/dream-diary, go back to sleep

>CDP-choline or citicoline

>uridine can help too
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358108/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357987/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357952/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357915/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357818/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357808/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26357798/n')


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>huperzine can be taken intermittently

>fish oil and iodine worth trying


Quoted by: >>26358228

>>26358108

cont.

Sleeping position

>on stomach

>or side

>back sleeping is bad for you... m'kay?

On beds and pillows>no strong evidence any bed, mattress or pillow is better than any other (objectively)

>whatever is comfortable for you is best for you

>that might be cheap or expensive, I prefer a hard mattress

>most complaints about beds come from fatties, and no bed is going to help you lose weight, stop being fat and you will sleep better

>if your arms go numb it is probably because you are sleeping weirdly

>RAISE YOUR BODY so your arms and legs can sit BELOW your body (for better movement and less joint impingements)

ONLY IF you suffer from SWS deficiency

>losing fat and increasing insulin sensitivity will fix most fat-people sleeping problems

>ketogenic diet if suffering from SWS deficiency (only for extreme cases of sleep quality problems like diabetics)

>glycine and taurine worth trying

>5-HTP sublingual worth trying

>valerian probably worth trying too

if all else fails

>talk to your doctor about DSIP prescription

>talk to your doctor about GHRH prescription

>get hormone panel done


just want to stop in and say thanks.


Quoted by: >>26358328

>>26357732

Please respond.

I'm stuck between either using earplugs or taking pills or smoking weed before I sleep.


Quoted by: >>26358309>>26358328

how the fuck does sleeping on your back relate to social anxiety? pure broscience


Quoted by: >>26358232>>26358601

>>26358151

cont.

Night shift

>stop doing night shift, its worse than a poor diet and no exercise and will give you cancer

>if you can't then fix your environment

>blackout curtains for your bedroom

>melatonin before bed

>vitamin d when you get up

>get as much artifical light as you can at night, every night

>avoid changing shifts, stick to a regular shift (don't switch from 1st to 2nd to 3rd shift every few days)

General sleep hygeine

>no computer screens, tvs, leds, lamps other white/blue/green-light emitting electronics on while you are sleeping, they stop your natural production of melatonin and

clearance of cortisol

>no computer games 30mins before bed, they raise your heart rate and cortisol giving you terrible sleep quality

>keep bedroom cool, you get more SWS and hgh when sleeping in cold environment

>icy cold shower water below 15C an hour before bed will increase certain brain activity that prepares you well for SWS

>conversely keeping feet warm helps you fall asleep faster, so if it's too cold put a heat pack on your feet


Quoted by: >>26358361

>>26358228

What are your thoughts on GABA?


Quoted by: >>26358271>>26358273>>26358309>>26358460

>>26358108

>>26357239

Dude I love you. I read some of your posts back in November and I corrected my sleep and had the best sleeps I ever had for like 2 months.

I have shit sleep habits again (mostly doing nothing after an evening of studying) and could use this thread to get my shit together.

Anyways I have a question. Whenever I'm sleep deprive or stay up too late I get intensely trippy, lik e I have less cognitive control but feel more artistic or feel pretty

intense joy or sometimes anger. Is it just elevated levels of epinephrine?

It helps that I usually do adderall everyday.
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358239/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358232/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358228/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358212/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358174/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358170/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358151/n')


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Quoted by: >>26358309

relevant

http://www.ted.com/talks/russell_foster_why_do_we_sleep

>if you have to use an alarm to wake up, you aren't getting enough sleep

herniabrahWed Apr 30 06:20:35 2014 No.26358271

Quoted by: >>26358309

>>26358239

>less cognitive control but feel more artistic or feel pretty intense joy or sometimes anger.

I experience this exact same thing.


Quoted by: >>26358309

>>26358239

>Whenever I'm sleep deprive or stay up too late I get intensely trippy, like I have less cognitive control but feel more artistic or feel pretty intense joy or sometimes

anger

damn all i ever feel is drunk


Quoted by: >>26358360

Sleep science guy tell us about micro-sleeps. Sometimes when im deprived and am paying attention looking out for them, i spot when i micro sleep and its really

cool.

>>26358212correlation does not mean direct link

All you can do is speculate on the chain of correlation unless a further study occurs, but i'd say something like

>sleeping on back

>does some shit to your brain (sleep paralysis, poor memory consolidation, sws reduction are all brain-problems)

>brain doesnt develop enough in certain areas

>you autist now

>>26358239

>doing adderall

enjoy your dependency on amphetamines

>>26358239

>>26358271

>>26358273

Same or different to me guys?

Stages of sleep deprivation:

1. Feel tired

2. Feel normal

3. Get a disgusting taste in the back of my throat. Momentarily distracted by eating or by a meal-like drink (like a coffee or milk)

4. Feel super-awake and aware (while actually being the opposite). Especially hearing seems to feel hypersensitive and have superpowers

5. Floating on air

6. Fall asleep standing up

>>26358257

Unfortunately the developed world's job market requires alarms usually


Quoted by: >>26358382>>26358434>>26358462

>>26358212

who said anything about back sleeping = social anxiety?

back sleeping babies probably have worse social skills in standardised tests because of slower neural development (from lower sleep quality). They can show 6

months difference in development time in this regard. Slower development doesn't mean stunting though, they may develop fine in the long run.

>>26358174

I can't help you much in that regard, I can only say melatonin and daily exercise c an make you drowsy, which may lower your ability to focus on things. Meditation

can help you calm down... and you have already tried earplugs and a fan.

Second, this might sound weird but it works: you might want to get second hand polystyrene boxes from a fruit shop and build yourself a polystyrene fort around your

bed to block out sound. If this works for you, then you can make a more stylish and more expensive "sleeping cabin" out of wood lined with polystyrene or some

sound-proofing foam. If too expensive just make a sound-muffling headpiece to go on top of your bed that looms over your head and shoulders.

herniabrahWed Apr 30 06:28:29 2014 No.26358360

Quoted by: >>26358409

>>26358309

>enjoy your dependency on amphetamines

enjoy not taking advantage of youth and neuroplasticity to maximize your work output before you get too old and nothing matters anymore

>b-but muh brain health

cost-benefit nigga


Quoted by: >>26358403>>26358529

>>26358232

GABA doesn't cross the BBB but phenibut does so is a far better product. Problem with GABA is that it has t ightly controlled homoeostasis in the brain and while it

might work a few times, after a while enzymes will adjust and Phenibut will stop working. So it can be a good short term fix, or temporary intermittent fix, but it is not

a long term fix for most people.
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>>26358328

Speaking of meditation.

Whenever I meditate, 15-20 minutes in I'm about to fall asleep. Usually I meditate during the day but lately I've been doing it at night and its like I get instantly

knocked out from meditation.

Shits awesome yo, I'd do it more often if I didn't enjoy staying up.


>>26358361

yo, quick question. don't need an indepth answer,

what causes night terrors? do they just lump it in with "c aused by stress"?

I used to have those. its like a nightmare, except you wake up and its still happening for a few secs. would see spiders and ghosts and shit. they went away

although nothing noticeable had changed in my life


Quoted by: >>26358453

>>26358360

Enjoy relying on drugs to keep you productive.

Enjoy growing up and adapting your hormonal balance to a constant input of externally manufactured drugs

Enjoy the inability to concentrate at all when you stop taking it due to chronic hormone balance fuck up


Is thinking about random things while trying to sleep bad? Does it slow down the process?


Quoted by: >>26358452

>>26358328

So my friend started me up on melatonin, I usually do 1.5 mg and falls asleep. It works for me if I actively try to sleep. The problem is I'm usually doing PC work at

night which prevents me from feeling tired at any time.

What's a good way to force myself to be drowsy while on the PC? Up my dose?


Quoted by: >>26358472

>>26358434

filter out blue and green light

either with red tinted glasses or a red film over your screen


Quoted by: >>26358517

>>26358409

Drugs aren't that bad yo, adderall's good when paired with meditation and actively trying to pay attention.


Quoted by: >>26358524

>>26358239

This can actually be because of brain exhaustion mixed with a cocktail of 'stay awake' hormones. When certain parts of the brain are exhausted (running low on

neurotransmitters, ions and oxidative junk has accumulated) they are shut down temporarily, even when you are awake. So sometimes the part of the brain that

controls and double checks emotions shuts down and you feel more emotional. Cool fact: you can do the same thing electrically with currents running through the

brain, or even from brain damage from being hit in the head, there are lots of case studies. So you get outbursts of emotional joy, anger, etc. I did a sleep deprivation

experiment and experienced some pretty radical emotional rollercoaster, was interesting to say the least!

The other thing is what people call 'second wind', it's just an overcompensation of cortisol and epinephrine, as you guessed, but it will wear out and leave you even

more exhausted afterward. Sleep deprivation accumulation doesn't stop just because you feel good :)


>>26358328

>build yourself a polystyrene fort

Not the anon you were replying to and I don't even have that problem but I really want to do this.


Quoted by: >>26358517

>>26358452

yeah i do that I have red lightbulbs and use flux, just that I'm trying to trigger the "too drowsy to stay on PC" mode which doesn't happen anymore to me ever.


Quoted by: >>26358555>>26358566

>>26358453

adderall has a long list of papers showing that it fucks your brain up in the long term. Of course it's great in the short term, but that isn't what we are worried about.

>>26358472

rubylith is better than flux

but otherwise, you shouldn't be aiming for 'too drowsy to stay on PC' because that means you are really sleep deprived. maybe you just aren't as sleep deprived as
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you used to be?


Quoted by: >>26358542>>26358673

>>26358460

SON HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT TRANSCRANIAL MAGNETIC STIMULATION?

if other people want to know what it is, its where you fire electrical currents through your brain to make it more used/stronger, which is like learning piano for example

which connects your "piano skills" neurons.

like you can passively learn skills, its used in parkinsons disease because your motor skills are shot and it re-activates it.


>>26358361

I ordered some just to try it out a few days ago because of sleep/blood pressure, I'll give it a whirl and see what happens. I'll keep your input in mind while taking it,

thanks.


Quoted by: >>26358568

>>26358524

you mean like getting an exoskeleton to work the arms and legs of a cripple so they tear and scar to regain their strength, but for the brain?


>>26358517

Can you point me to this? I've searched the literature a bit and its mostly around methamphetamine or abuse-level dosage, a lot of the long-term tracking studies

don't show damage but again its uncertain.


Quoted by: >>26358606>>26358673

>>26358517

I have a problem falling asleep and staying asleep. I just get huge night time hunger and binge and its fucking up my cut. Any advice? Melatonin doesnt seem to do

much for me


Quoted by: >>26358673

>>26358542

Yes.

The better part is t hat its like building muscle except you don't anything but run electrical currents.

Like, you have parts of the brain thats responsible for planning, organization and so-on, the more you make use of it the more neurons are generated. Imagine doing

that without doing anything.

We'll be Gods M8, GODS!


Quoted by: >>26358744>>26358786

>>26358228

wait what night shift will give you cancer, is this because of the lack of light or something

I'm about to start a night shift but I get up about 3 pm and work out and don't start work til' 10 so I take a bit of a nap, then work til' 7 in the morning

plan on taking a multivitamin or do you reccomend just d, or would the sunlight from 3-6 be enough


>>26357732

Hey man I had a very similar problem, if not quite as bad. I found a few things that helped.

First was white noise, which it seems you've already tried. Second was increasing my carb intake. And third was doing deep, fast breathing before bed. Hope that

helps


>>26358566

Not sleepbro, but I can say what works for me. Don't cut and acquire cardio.

Cardio helps with s leep especially and staying calm the whole day.


Quoted by: >>26358793

>>26358566

I don't normally, but I actually suggest doing intermittent fasting. Eat all your food in one big dinner and give yourself 2-3h to digest it then go to sleep. If you are

hungry during the day the body should adapt. Don't keep any cash on you so you don't buy food. Make sure all your carbs are really fibery vegetables, carrots, sweet

potato, greens, etc. I am sure there are other threads that can help you out more.

>>26358524

>>26358568Yeah it is good, but it is only as good as you work hard yourself. Just like experiments on electric stimulation of muscles, or whole body vibration and other

technologies that 'stimulate' muscle, they only work WELL if you tense the musc le at the same time (do exercise).

TMS is useful for making permenant changes in neural activity, but that is only useful if you create associations from neural pathways by actually thinking (solving

problems and stuff) when you are being stimulated.

The most interesting parts are actually in shutting off over-active parts of the brain! This allows under-used parts, that were previously regulated, to flourish and come

out from within the regulator's shelter. Shutting down strong parts and doing this, then exercising those parts of the brain that were weak and over-regulated, this has

some really interesting potential!
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358673/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358606/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358605/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358601/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358568/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358566/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358555/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358542/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358529/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358524/n')


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>>26358601

Yes, it gives you cancer through accelerated ageing mechanisms, not because of any primary environmental interactions with the body, but secondary actions at a

genetic level. Downregulation of time-keeping genes does crazy stuff to your antioxidant production/control, cell apoptosis and DNA repair. It's all interconnected, the

sunlight, your body, the cells, the mitochondria, the gene expression and the DNA integrity it's self. Cancer and aging isn't just one thing, it is so many things going

wrong at once, all minor, and all accumulative. Perhaps it is better to think about night shift ageing you quicker, rather than directly giving you cancer. The

accelerated aging also lowers hormone production (which effects muscular retention, bone density, and the rest).


Quoted by: >>26358833

Tips for having weird sleep schedules?

I feel fantastic if I'm on an extended vacation or something, and I'm able to sleep from 4-5am until noon or 1. Unfortunately, real life requires I get up between 6 and 8.

I can fall asleep as early as 1 am if I start trying at 10 pm, but regardless of getting the same length of sleep, I'll feel like I haven't slept at all, mentally foggy, tired

and even physically sick if I force myself into that schedule for a long enough period of time.

anything I can do to fix it?


>>26358601

Considering most western peoples are vitamin D deficient, even ones that spend time in the sun, and they don't do night shift, consider your requirements for vitmain

D even more vital than everyone else's. So I recommend 2400iu per day + any D that's in your multivitamin (I like NOW ADAM). And if you haven't taken D before you

should frontload with 10k+ iu a day for the first week.

TKDbravoWed Apr 30 07:08:40 2014 No.26358793

>>26358673Hey, i've been told to not eat 2 hours before i sleep to maximise HGH production

should I?


Quoted by: >>26358918

>>26358764

You have a forward shifted rhythm. This means your body is going to need to take time to either forward or backward shift your internal rhythm.

Consider this the same thing as moving to a different country with a different time zone, it takes about a week to adjust if you actually try to adjust, and there are

other clocks like in the gut and the liver that take longer to adjust (up to a month).

Taking a big load of melatonin at 9pm and staying in a dark room until morning will help you adjust relatively quickly. Get a rubylith cover for your PC and get a timer

+ lamp for the mornings, or instead just sleep with your window partially open if the sun rises between 6-8am. But sleeping with curtains open isn't always an option

because street lights coming in through the window will give you shit sleep.


>>26357697Disregard/disrespect for sleep absolutely kills me.

If I get less than 9 hours of sleep a night, I can hardly function. Everyone else I know is going on 5 or 6 hour a night.


File: 92 KB, 589x393, MG_8191-750x499_thumb.jpg [View same] [google]

Quoted by: >>26358871

Hey sleep guy, is it weird my body clock always automatically wakes me up

after 5 hours of sleep?

Is this good or bad?


I've found that if I get about 6 hours of sleep I feel fine in the morning. If I get somewhere in the range of 7 to 9 hours of sleep I feel tired and lazy in the morning. If I

get greater than 9 hours I also feel fine.

What does this mean?


Quoted by: >>26358911>>26358968

>>26358848

It's normal. You just need to get to sleep early enough at night so that you can spend 1.5-3h awake and doing stuff after you wake up, then you can take another 1.5-

3h nap in the morning.

You should also try lucid dreaming :) This is called wake back to bed method.


>>26357697

>Yes growth can be effected by poor sleep, hgh and igf

>lack of western disregard and disrespect for sleep.

western society confirmed for causing manlets


>>26358871

Lurking thread and reading, adding a few notes about my own sleep and diet habits.

Thanks brah, much appreciated.
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358911/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358899/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358871/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358863/n')http://www.google.com/searchbyimage?image_url=http://archive.heinessen.com/boards/fit/thumb/0263/54/1398834940369s.jpghttp://archive.heinessen.com/fit/image/63HVsscwFzgohX0vrUQnfghttp://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358848/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358837/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358833/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358793/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358786/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358764/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358744/n')


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Quoted by: >>26359012

>>26358833

You said you take 9mg of melatonin; what would you consider to be a "big load" then?

The sun rises between 6 and 7 here, so sometimes it's coming up as I'm getting up, and sometimes it's up half an hour before I need to be up. There are no

streetlights that can shine in to my room. I already sleep with the window open/blinds up.


Quoted by: >>26358987>>26359012

Sleep Sensei, I work as a PT and oftentimes I have wake up hella early to get to work, sometimes at 445 to be there by 530.

I have a slipped disc l4/l5, spondy, lordosis, etc. Doesn't effect my workouts, sometimes I'm a little tight.

On mornings I had to wake up early as hell, I'd have horrible sciatica the rest of the day. On days I get to sleep in past like 6 am, I'm almost always fine.

Wouldn't matter when I went to bed, just when I was woken up.

What the fuck dude.


Quoted by: >>26359055

>>26358871

What if I sleep at 10-11 pm, woke up at 4 then did some pushups etc, and went back to sleep for another 2 hours before work?


Quoted by: >>26359055

>>26358923

Are you me? I think it has to do with gh production while we sleep. High gh= less pain and better rom.


Quoted by: >>26359054>>26359102>>26359115

>>26358918

9-10mg is a big load. 3x3mg or 2x5mg.

OK so now just stop getting so much computer light in your eyes at night and take that melatonin regularly. Fall asleep an hour earlier each night, starting with

'whenever you feel like it'. If you go to sleep at 5am, then 4, then 3, etc it should take you 6 days to get back to 10pm. Then even if you are taking a while to get to

sleep, keep trying for a few more days.

>>26358923

I agree. What the fuck lol? I can only imagine getting up early stresses you out more and increased stress = increased subjective pain. When you sleep more and

are less st ressed you feel the same pain but it's subjectively less bothering.

Second theory might be that you are missing out on sweet, muscle-relaxing REM, which is important for losening up the muscles around the spine. When we enter

into REM we become paralysed and relaxed.


Quoted by: >>26359065>>26359139

>>26357478

>5mg is not too much

>I take 9mg per night which is more than most

Damn.

I have 3mg which I take on occasion and they make me very sleepy.


Quoted by: >>26359139

any sleep position that fixes posture? or better yet forward head posture? yes i notice pretty much everyone in this generation who grew up with a computer has this,

but i'm just wondering if its reversable in your early 20s?


Quoted by: >>26359139

>>26359012

Thanks, I'll try it out and hopefully it helps... because this has been going on since at least middle school, and I'm now 24, with it really s tarting to become a

problem.

Last question; Might the gut clock you mentioned have something to do with my not ever having any desire to eat until 4pm or so?


Quoted by: >>26359088>>26359102

>>26358987

GH less likely to be a problem as his body will get him a good dose of it no matter what time he falls asleep at night, meanwhile REM is periodic and anchored to a

certain time in the morning. If his body thinks REM time is 5-8am then waking up at 5am means he is missing out on a high density REM period.

>>26358968

Do whatever, dude, just don't expose yourself to too much light, and if you are doing push ups that will get your heart rate up, which means you will need time to letyour heart rate go back to normal before you will get to sleep again.


Quoted by: >>26359237

>>26359019

Oh, I guess I should ask a question.
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359065/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359055/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359054/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359026/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359019/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359012/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358987/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358968/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358923/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26358918/n')


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What do you think about the Jawbone UP24, which wakes you when you aren't in as deep a sleep?


Quoted by: >>26359216>>26359237

>>26359055

Fuck it, I'll just get up to gargle some water, then go back to s leep.


Quoted by: >>26359237

>>26359012>>26359055

How do get more REM?

Also thanks for this thread. I'm taking notes and looking forward to some sweet sleep gains. Had shit sleep my whole life.


Quoted by: >>26359143>>26359203

>>26359012

cool dude thanks.

write a book i'll buy it


Quoted by: >>26359182>>26359217

>>26359019Dose doesn't control strenght of the drowsiness effect. Anything over 0.5mg is going to make you drowsy, and also saturate the melatonin receptors in your brain.

Taking more than that will mean it stays in your blood for longer (because it will take longer to lower the serum melatonin to below 0.5mg, the saturation point).

Taking more also means a greater non-sleep related effects (anti-cancer, anti-oxidant, pro-bone density and immune control, all the goodies that come high

melatonin ingestion).

>>26359026

That needs to be fixed while you are awake. Tuck your chin in consciously and try some head bridges or something during a few times per day.

>>26359054

Yes, that's exactly what the gut clock does, times your peristaltic intensity, your production of leptin and ghrelin, etc. A strong, well kept body clock will make the

body feel hungry at the right times of day/night. These times are usually an hour or two after waking, lunch time, dinner time and if you wake up there is theoretically

a night-snack time a bit after you wake, too (but you shouldn't be waking up BECAUSE you are hungry).

The liver/gut clock is also kept in time with carb ingestion, not just melatonin. For example you should have most of your carbs during the day and post-afternoon-

workout/dinner (first hour ro two after sundown). Generally, eating carbs late at night will push the liver clock forward. and eating lots of carbs at 3-4am will push the

liver clock backwards

AnonymousWed Apr 30 07:49:13 2014 No.26359143Quoted by: >>26359286

>>26359115

Speaking of books, are there any resources you would recommend to look further into, Sleep Science Guy?

As always, thanks for your input.


>>26359139

Thanks for all the help. Will give this all a try.


File: 431 KB, 225x300, 1365587671357.gif [View same] [google]

>>26359115

Same.

100% honest.


Quoted by: >>26359286

>>26359088

Get some water and/or milk, and hit the sack for another 2 hours.


Quoted by: >>26359286>>26359311

>>26359139

>Taking more also means a greater non-sleep related effects (anti-cancer, anti-oxidant, pro-bone density and immune control, all the goodies that come highmelatonin ingestion).

Does taking this decrease natural production of melatonin?


Quoted by: >>26359282>>26359349>>26359416
http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359237/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359217/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359216/n')http://www.google.com/searchbyimage?image_url=http://archive.heinessen.com/boards/fit/thumb/0263/54/1398837238017s.jpghttp://archive.heinessen.com/fit/image/vsSLEDsjiLaYh5MbrPwNZQhttp://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359203/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359182/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359143/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359139/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359115/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359102/n')http://insert%28%27%3E%3E26359088/n')


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>>26359065

I don't know what the Jawbone is, but if it detects when you have REM and wakes you up after REM finishes (back into light sleep) then this is a good way to wake

someone up... I am not sure how a wristband could accurately detect REM (unless it's through lowered heart rate?) I have seen a few machines try to measure sleep

by movement, this isn't a good way to measure sleep-type.

>>26359088

Yeah, just don't stress about sleep when you wake up like that. Most people can't get back to s leep because they are stressing about getting back to s leep. Silly! :D

>>26359102

Easiest way is to sleep in more during the mornings. Dawn, and the hours surrounding it, is what the body tries to detect and times REM according to that. Of

course sleeping in doesn't fit with western society... In a way, this is partly why people wake up in the middle of the night, their body intends to do some hormonal

voodoo for a few hours then go back to sleep and sleep in to get epic REMs. It's also why children and teens want to sleep in during the morning, because they

require more REM than adults.

AnonymousWed Apr 30 07:57:48 2014 No.26359248File: 363 KB, 720x478, 1395810378279.png [View same] [google]

but really, no sleep on the

back?


Quoted by: >>26359349

>>26359237

>I don't know what the Jawbone is, but if it detects when you have REM and wakes you up after REM finishes (back into light sleep) then this is a good way to wake

someone up... I am not sure how a wristband could accurately detect REM (unless it's through lowered heart rate?) I have seen a few machines try to measure sleep

by movement, this isn't a good way to measure sleep-type.

I'm not exactly sure how it works either, but the functionality is neat. You set a time you have to get up, then the device will wake you up (I think a half hour earlier

max) when you are not in as deep a sleep.


Quoted by: >>26359305>>26359308

>>26359143

Hah, pick up some books on psychology and biology. Think of questions and try to answer them by looking up papers on pubmed/jstor.

>>26359216

Yeah, no reason to forgo some quality protein when you wake up. Have a protein shake, read the newspaper by candle light, do some stretching/yoga, practice

mediation, then go back to sleep.

Actually I find 3-4am is the best time to do mediation. The Devil's Hour is really just 'Your Brain Does Cool Stuff' Hour.

>>26359217

No, your endogenous production isn't effected by exogenous administration.


>>26359286>Actually I find 3-4am is the best time to do mediation. The Devil's Hour is really just 'Your Brain Does Cool Stuff' Hour.

HOLY

SHIT

dis gun b good


>>26359286

>No, your endogenous production isn't effected by exogenous administration.

Great! Thanks.


Quoted by: >>26359339

>>26359217

If you think about it, even if it did, you only naturally make less than 0.1mg most nights, any oral melatonin is supraphysiological, and just like administering

testosterone shuts down test production, when you are taking supraphysiological doses it doesn't matter.


Quoted by: >>26359502

>>26359311

Well of a 3mg oral dose. How much of this actually gets to the blood?

Also the Jawbone Up uses actigraphy. Basically a fancy motion detector, not heart rate. Makes sense with the primary function being a fitness tracker.


>>26359237

>>26359282

It and those iphone apps that claim to do the same thing work with an inertial motion sensor. If you aren't moving, your in REM since paralysis.

Thus, theyre nowhere near perfect, if you tend not to move in your sleep theyre completely useless. But on the occasion that you move significantly in general sleep

these will work to a degree.

Personally i reckon they're bullshit like powerbands but i dont know how effective the motion detection is


Quoted by: >>26359502
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>>26359237

God dammit. I want more REM but I can't just sleep in, I got work and shit.


>>26357565

Sorry if this is a stupid question but aren't babies supposed to sleep on their side? Or at the very least, face the side because their skulls haven't completely

developed and they should avoid too much pressure on the back of their head?


>>26359339

oral bioavailability of 15%

>9mg oral = 1.35mg

>3mg oral = 0.45mg

>0.5mg oral = 75mcg (lowest commercial dose)

>6-7mcg oral = 1mcg = nightly production

so already our lowest dose supplement is 75x the physiological dose.

>>26359416

So the solution is to go to take bed earlier and buy some daylight lamps that turn on 30min-2h before you want to get up, which will simulate dawn. You can also get

marginal increases in REM by taking the supplements I mentioned above (for increasing dream recall/intensity) after 5-6h sleep.


Can you cite some sources that say it's better to sleep on your side/front? I also thought it was better to fall asleep on your back

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