Ruth I. Abrams

February 6, 2009; October 11, 2009; February 15, 2010;

June 11, 2010; October 22, 2010

Recommended Citation

Transcript of Interview with Ruth I. Abrams (Feb. 6, 2009; Oct. 11, 2009; Feb. 15, 2010; June 11, 2010; Oct. 22, 2010), https://abawtp.law.stanford.edu/exhibits/show/ruth-i-abrams.

Attribution The American Bar Association is the copyright owner or licensee for this collection. Citations, quotations, and use of materials in this collection made under fair use must acknowledge their source as the American Bar Association.

Terms of Use This oral history is part of the American Bar Association Women Trailblazers in the Law Project, a project initiated by the ABA Commission on Women in the Profession and sponsored by the ABA Senior Lawyers Division. This is a collaborative research project between the American Bar Association and the American Bar Foundation. Reprinted with permission from the American Bar Association. All rights reserved.

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ABA Senior Lawyers Division

Women Trailblazers in the Law

ORAL HISTORY

of

RUTH I. ABRAMS

Interviewers: Alice Richmond Elaine M. Epstein

Dates of Interviews:

February 6, 2009 October 11, 2009 February 15, 2010 June 11, 2010 October 22, 2010

ORAL HISTORY OF THE HON. RUTH I. ABRAMS (Ret.)

FIRST INTERVIEW

February 6, 2009

This is the first interview of the oral history of Ruth Abrams which is being taken on behalf of

Women Trailblazers in the Law, a Project of the American Bar Association Senior Lawyers

Division. It is being conducted by Alice Richmond on February 6, 2009.

Richmond: I should probably say for the purposes of the tape, that I was Justice Abrams' first

law clerk many years ago. I now call her Ruth, I mean no disrespect by that. I am

likely to say Ruth on this tape. We have signed the intent to donate. Interview is

being held in a room with a beautiful view of the Charles River. Justice Abrams

could you tell me a little bit about your family, where you were born, where you

are in terms of brothers and sisters, where you went to school?

Abrams:

Richmond

Abrams:

I was born in Boston, grew up in Newton, MA. My father was a lawyer and my

mother was a homemaker. I have one brother and one sister. All three of us are

lawyers. My sister became a lawyer not right after college but when her youngest

son went to college. But all three of us are lawyers. In my extended family, I had

an uncle who was a lawyer, his son was a lawyer, his daughter married a lawyer,

so we have any number of lawyers in the family. I went to the Newton School

until Grade 10 and I went to Choate School for Girls for three years.

Why did you do that?

My parents. My brother went to Andover and I went to Choate School for girls. I

am the oldest of the three; my brother is 14 months younger than I am and my

sister is 7 V,i years younger than I am. My brother went to Andover so they put

- 1 -

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

me in a girls' school. There was a concern of World War II and maybe having to

evacuate. There was a small little incident where I was bitten by a dog in Newton

named Hitler. That worried my parents tremendously.

Could I get your birth date?

December 26, 1930.

So you went to Choate starting your junior year in school?

Sophomore year. At that time the Newton schools went K-6th, 7th-9th and high

school was 1 oth -1 ih. They subsequently changed that.

The Choate School for girls is where?

It was in Brookline, it no longer exists. The woman who started it was named

Augustus Choate. She was related to the people who started the Choate School

for Boys, now a co-ed school in CT. She was a graduate of Vassar. She thought

that Vassar was the be all and' end all of the world. When I chose to go to

Radcliffe she said to me "do you know the girls there smoke"? And I said "if that

is the worst, it is pretty good".

Richmond: So it was not a boarding school?

Abrams: No, it was a day school. My brother boarded at Andover.

Richmond: What else did you do when you were at Choate besides go to school? Were there

any activities?

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

All my life my mother took us to dancing lessons, piano lessons.

None of that stuck? Was there anything that you liked doing better than

something else? What did you like doing most?

Reading. That was my favorite thing.

- 2 -

Richmond What did you like to read?

Abrams: Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys and all of those children's series of books. I

would read one book a week, minimum. I would go to story hour at the library.

Richmond: They had a series when I was a kid called the Childhood of Famous Americans?

They didn't have that yet? The library was the Newton Public Library?

Abrams: Newton Public Library. They had story hour on Thursday afternoons and

Saturday mornings.

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

When did you decide that reading was your most favorite thing?

Right away. I took dance lessons, tap dance and ballet, but I was not very good at

it. After Choate School, I went to Radcliffe.

Did you ever go to your father's office?

Yes, we used to go on Saturdays. He took us to court when we were little; we

thought the openings were quite funny. He took us to New Bedford to museums

and whenever he went far away to a courthouse, he would take us.

Richmond: So, mostly you and George and not your sister?

Abrams: Not my sister, she was too young.

Richmond: What was the name of your father's law firm?

Abrams: He was in private practice under his name; when George and I both became

lawyers, there was a law firm Abrams, Abrams and Abrams. He was the first

Harvard educated lawyer who had two children graduate from Harvard Law

School.

Richmond: So he was essentially a sole practitioner?

Abrams: Yes.

- 3 -

Richmond: Where did he go to law school?

Abrams: Harvard

Richmond: He went to Harvard College too?

Abrams: He did. He went to Boston Latin School; got a scholarship to Harvard College

and a scholarship to Harvard Law School.

Richmond:

Abrams:

Was he first generation?

My grandmother was quite young when she came over here so she was not very

well educated. So I would say yes. She wasn't born here, but my father was. He

was the first generation to go to college.

Richmond: Do you know where his parents met?

Abrams: No.

Richmond: Was your father one of a number of kids?

Abrams: He was one of 9.

Richmond: Did they all go to college?

Abrams: Only the males.

Richmond: Sorry I should have figured that out. How many of them were men?

Abrams: Three; two of the women died; one of illness and one in childbirth. The three

men, my uncle Joe and my father went to Harvard Law School and my uncle

Maury went to Harvard Medical School.

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

So of the three guys, two became lawyers and one became a doctor?

Yes. They all went to Boston Latin.

Where did your uncle Joe practice?

In Boston.

- 4 -

Richmond:

Abrams:

But not with your father?

Well, they were both in the same suite, but they were both individual

practitioners. My uncle Joe did mostly divorces. My father didn't like divorce;

he was a little bit against it.

Richmond: How did you know he was against it?

Abrams: He would say it.

Richmond: Now where did your mom meet your dad?

Abrams: I'm not certain; I think somebody fixed them up but I am not certain.

Richmond: She wasn't from Radcliffe?

Abrams: No, she didn't go to college. Her family came over. Her mother was not the

mother of my aunt and uncle. My grandfather's first wife died and then he

married my grandmother and she was the only child of that union. She had one

sister and three brothers but they are all half siblings. None of them were

educated; their children were, but not that generation.

Richmond:

Abrams:

Where did your mother grow up?

In the West End. My father grew up in Cohasset or Hingham, I'm not sure. They

had a summer place. They happened to go to Harvard on a fluke. The neighbor

across the street, Mr. Hutchinson, told my grandmother "your kids are smart; your

boys should go to Harvard". When my uncle, who was at Hingham High, got into

Harvard, she moved into Boston so he could go to Harvard. My uncle Joe did not

go to Boston Latin; he went to Hingham High. When they moved to Boston, it

was so my uncle could go to Harvard and the two boys went to Boston Latin

School.

- 5 -

Richmond:

Abrams:

So, he was living at home with her in the South End?

My father had a nickel a day and he could either buy an apple for lunch and walk

to Harvard or take the T to Harvard and not eat lunch.

Richmond: You know, we could learn a lot from these people.

Abrams: You realize how they valued education. That was the choice every day.

Richmond: Now that was the time when Harvard had a quota for Jews.

Abrams: Yeah, I think Latin School was where Harvard took their Jewish people from.

Richmond What year did your father got into Harvard?

Abrams: He graduated in 1926.

Richmond: So, about 1919.

Abrams: He also got his Masters in History.

Richmond: What was he going to do with that?

Abrams: Teach maybe.

Richmond: Did he ever tell you why he decided to go to law school?

Abrams: He always said because he couldn't dissect the frog and therefore couldn't go to

medical school. I don't know if that was the reason.

Richmond: So it wasn't like I want to be a lawyer; I want to right wrongs? How many years

younger than your uncle Joe was he?

Abrams: A lot. He was the next in line. Two I didn't know at all. Maybe 8 or 9 years.

Richmond: Did your uncle Joe go to Harvard Law School?

Abrams: He did and Harvard College. My uncle Maurice went to Harvard Medical School.

Richmond: So your father went to Harvard College and graduates in 1923. Did he go right to

law school?

- 6 -

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Yes, he had his Master's degree.

He went to the law school in 1923?

The fall of 1923.

He graduated from law school in 1926? What happened when he graduated? Did

he pass the bar right away?

He did. But jobs were hard because big firms weren't hiring Jewish lawyers.

There was a man named Berkowitz at Hale & Dorr. He was about the only one.

So my father went out on his own.

Did he pass the bar the first time?

Yes.

Did he ever tell you what it was like to be a lawyer in those circumstances?

Well, what he said was - and I think we have lost a little bit of this in the law - he

said when he was the young lawyer and he would go up for motions, some of the

older lawyers would say "hey next time can I call you and have you argue my

motion for me?" He would pick up business that way. There was a much better

camaraderie back then. He would get a lot of clients from other lawyers.

Did he ever talk about the frustrations of being a smart, young lawyer and having

all these doors closed because of who he was?

Well, yes but he had great belief that America would open its doors. That was

true in that he always thought that Harvard Law School would let women in.

Even when there were so many men.

So he didn't have any bitterness about what had happened?

- 7 -

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

No, there was no bitterness. He was fun to be with; he would talk about politics

with us. We were the only Democrats in our grammar school. There was another

boy named Phil Levin, who also became a lawyer.

You would go on occasion with your dad to courtrooms, his office. What did you

do when you went to his office?

We didn't do very much; sometimes he would tell us what his case was about;

what the argument was going to be about.

So you grew up thinking it was fun to be a lawyer?

Yes.

When did you think it was understood that it wasn't usual for a girl to be a

lawyer?

A long time later. Because my father would say "women can do anything;

women can do this, women can do that".

Where do you think he got that from?

I have no idea; I have absolutely no idea. He was way ahead of his time in many

respects.

Did your mother have the same view?

My mother thought that whatever my father thought was probably correct.

Wow, that was a marriage made in Heaven, huh? Did you ever talk to your

mother about any of that stuff?

No, my mother kept saying "well, everyone gets married and that's what you have

to think about".

- 8 -

Richmond: Did you ever ask her any questions about her view of what you were going to be

or how you were going to be?

Abrams: Never, it didn't even dawn on me. I had no awareness. First of all, I knew no

women who were doing anything. I had one aunt, my uncle Joe's second wife,

who went to dental school but she didn't practice. But I knew no women who

were not home with children. And when I say that, I mean "none". Nobody.

Richmond: You went off to this day high school and what kinds of colleges did you think

Abrams:

about going to? Did you think about going anywhere besides Radcliffe?

Well, they wanted me to look at Vassar. My aunt on my mother's side thought

Wellesley was the be all and end all of life and she went to Smith. Her second

choice was Smith and she had a daughter who went to Smith.

Richmond: So, where did you look when you were thinking of going to college?

Abrams: First, Wellesley, Jackson.

Richmond: For purposes of the record Jackson is part of Brown.

Abrams: Jackson was part of Tufts. It doesn't exist now.

Richmond: What was the process? Did you go to look at the schools?

Abrams: We went to look at Jackson and Pembroke.

Richmond: Did you like any of them?

Abrams: Not especially.

Richmond: Did you like Radcliffe the best?

Abrams: No my father liked it the best. He went to Harvard. It was that simple. He

thought it was superior above and beyond anything else. I remember in high

school I wrote two papers, one on Joan of Arc and one on Charles Dickens. My

- 9 -

father kept saying "is this the kind of work they do at Radcliffe? I don't know

why it is done in high school".

Richmond: Did you have to take all subjects?

Abrams: We had to take English, Latin, French, Math; everything; geometry. But that was

different; it was a college course at that time; that is they didn't have advanced

placement. If you weren't going to take certain subjects at college they had to

make sure you could take some Math . They had this rule that they were going to

educate you in all these areas.

Richmond: There was never any question that you were going to go to college?

Abrams: One incident only stands out in my mind. That was my grandmother, whose

daughters did not go to college but her sons did, said to me "my daughters didn't

go to college but my granddaughters are going to go." I was about 13 when she

said that. I didn't even understand what she was saying but I remembered it so

distinctly because it was like she was telling me "you got to go".

Richmond: Did you ask her any questions?

Abrams: I said "what do you mean"? She said your aunts didn't go but my granddaughters

are going to go to college". She wouldn't elaborate on it. I had a cousin who was

another granddaughter of hers, whose mother had died, and she was very proud of

the fact that her granddaughter was at Radcliffe. She had another granddaughter

who worked her way through Boston University.

Richmond: There seems to be an assumption that all of you were going to college.

Abrams: That was my mother and father's assumption.

Richmond: You were going to go to Harvard?

- 10 -

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

In all honesty, my grandmother didn't know there was another college. She was

totally unaware of any other college and she literally didn't know that there was

another college. Of course, my father and the kids all knew. My grandmother

thought Harvard was the only college around - that was it.

Do you think your parents wanted you to go to Choate School so you would have

a better background to go to college?

I think they were worried about World War II. They were worried about my

brother being drafted. My mother made him go to typing school but not me, so he

would be able to be in an office in the Army if he had to go in the Army. She was

afraid someone would make me type for a job, but she wanted me to be a librarian

or a teacher.

So he wouldn't have to go to be sent to the front lines to be shot at.

I suspect that was the reason. Not bad reasoning. My brother is a very good

typist. It helped him when he was on the Harvard Crimson.

It would seem that there were not traditional gender roles in your family except

your mother saying that girls got married?

There were not traditional gender roles. My mother did say that but she also

thought I was going to be a librarian because I spent so much time at the library.

Did you apply to all the schools that you mentioned?

They only had one admission in April so you couldn't take a chance. I applied to

Radcliffe, Wellesley, Jackson, Vassar, Smith, Mt. Holyoke and there must have

been a dozen. You always had to worry about not getting in.

- 11 -

Richmond:

Abrams:

After it was all over, Betsy said to me "you know Mom you are impossible". I

said why? She said I knew I was going to one of the best colleges in America, I

just didn't know which one. Was that much the same for you?

I knew I was going to say in the East because my parents were not interested in

my going to Chicago or Stanford or any place far away.

Richmond: Why? Did they talk to you about that?

Abrams: I think it was cost. My father had two of-us in school at the same time.

Richmond: So, where did you get in?

Abrams: Radcliffe, Wellesley, Vassar, Jackson.

Richmond: Let me ask this question. Where didn't you get in?

Abrams: Colorado College for Women. That was my security school.

Richmond: Who came up with the Colorado College for Women as a security school?

Abrams: Miss Choate.

Richmond: Well, she was wrong wasn't she?

Abrams: Shows what security does for you.

Richmond: So now you are in Jackson and Pembroke.

Abrams: Well, once I got into Radcliffe, that was the end.

Richmond: There was never any discussion of going elsewhere?

Abrams: Right.

Richmond: Did you live at Radcliffe?

Abrams: I did. Radcliffe didn't have rooms the first year. Local freshman were

commuting until they got more housing. Radcliffe bought Henry House and some

other off campus houses for people so all students could live at Radcliffe.

- 12 -

Richmond: So you really didn't start living in the Harvard dorms until your sophomore year?

Abrams: Right.

Richmond: So you stayed in the dorms until you graduated. You graduated in what year?

Abrams: 1953. In the fall of 1953 I went to the law school.

Richmond: So you went to the college in 1949?

Abrams: Right.

Richmond: At the time you went to college, did you know you wanted to be a lawyer?

Abrams: No.

Richmond: Had you thought about it?

Abrams: No.

Richmond: Were you aware that Harvard Law School wasn't taking women?

Abrams: I was aware of that.

Richmond: How did you know that?

Abrams: Because there were people at the dorms that wanted to go to Harvard. The dorms

at Radcliffe.

Richmond:

Abrams:

Tell me what you remember about those conversations and your reaction.

I didn't sit in the smoking room because I wasn't a smoker; that was where most

of these conversations took place. The smoking room was there because you

couldn't smoke in the bedrooms; so you had to get cancer from the smoking

rooms. People would be saying they were applying to this school or that one;

especially BU, because BU was safe. Harvard wasn't open to women. But it was

on Harvard's agenda. I had a woman cousin who was a year ahead of me, Uncle

Joe's daughter, and she kept saying "if they let women into Harvard Law School,

- 13 -

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

maybe I'll go and I'll be in that first class." But she didn't go to law school and I

was actually in the 4th class. It was the fall of 1950 I guess that they started taking

women.

What do you think the reaction was when you found out that they were taking

women?

It didn't even dawn on me. I had no consciousness at all of gender

discrimination. I thought I was so lucky to be at Radcliffe. And now the kids say

"what do you mean, you were way up there in no man's land". We had all co-ed

classes but the classes before World War II, the lectures were given twice, once at

Harvard and once at Radcliffe. The war changed that. That was Harvard's

contribution.

So what year did they start taking women at Harvard Law School?

I was in year 1956 and I was the fourth class so that would have been the class of

1952.

Richmond: Didn't they phase them in? They started with several?

Abrams: No they started with one. They may have had some graduate students.

Richmond:

I wasn't even thinking about going to law school. My cousin was thinking about

it more than I was. I thought about going to New York School of Social Work

and going to New York to do social work. I went to see Dean Cronkite who was

the Dean of Graduate School applications. She said "well you better sort of think

about what you are going to do with your life." I told her I wanted to go to the

New York School of Social Work.

What year did you do this?

- 14 -

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Senior.

So you were destined to be a Social Worker?

And I went to Dean Cronkite and she said "don't be silly - take the LSAT exam;

it is given two weeks from Saturday." I said "I can't get it all done." She said

"yes we can do it". So I took it.

Richmond: I want to talk about Dean Cronkite for a minute. Why do you think she said that

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

to you?

My roommate was a woman named Dee Waelder who wanted to go to medical

school and she had gone to see her just a couple of weeks before I did. I have no

idea why.

Had you done well at Radcliffe?

Yes. A's and B's. My field was Government Foreign Relations. I have to tell

you a story about the law school. The law school admitted women; and if you can

get an old catalogue, at the bottom it will say "we admit some well qualified

women". Dean Conkrite said to me "Hey, Radcliffe will be well qualified." So I

took the LSA T and I took the Graduate Records. She was not impressed with

both of those. She thought I could teach instead of being a social worker. I did

well on the LSA T. I got into the Graduate School of Harvard. I knew there were

others but let me tell you what she did to make life easier. She shipped over my

grades and an application which was a page and a half long. I got into Harvard

Law School about two weeks later. Then I thought, "why am I going to fill out all

these other applications"? My uncle Joe came and he said "well you know, you

should really go to Harvard." I was really thinking about going to Yale just to get

- 15 -

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

away from everyone. He said "well, everyone says Yale is as good as Harvard so

you might as well go to Harvard - the "measuring rod"!

Were you ever curious about what motivated Ms. Cronkite?

No. She had a son who was head of Children's Hospital, Leonard Cronkite. He

said his mother was always saying her girls weren't being challenged. They could

rule the world. That is what he said to Radcliffe seniors.

I just think that women like that; maybe she was part of that generation of the

sucker jokes.

Maybe when she was part of the University women and they were having a hard

time and numbers have gone down. Harvard is not the only place.

Isn't the Cronkite Graduate Center must be named after her?

Yes, I think that is right. The one on Ash Street. She was a very good woman.

She was a Dean at Radcliffe. She did a lot with getting people into graduate, law

and medical school.

How many women were in your class?

They took 330. I don't know how many graduated. So it was a 4 to 1 ratio men

to women.

So at least arguably, this woman Ms. Cronkite met with everyone of the 330 kids?

No, lots of kids were getting married. She met with my roommate who was going

to medical school. She met with another friend of mine who was going to the

School of Education. She really only met with people looking to go to another

school.

How did she know that?

- 16 -

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

Richmond:

Abrams:

I guess there were signs in the dorms if you were going to go get another degree,

go see Dean Cronkite.

You think you had to sign up for this?

No, I think you went there and if she had an opening, she would see you; if she

didn't she would say come back at 4:00 or come back tomorrow. There were not

that many. Nancy Goldring and myself. There were not many more.

So out of that class of 330 entering, you think only 3% went on to graduate

school?

No, about 10%. Most people went and got engaged or were going with

somebody. If you were going to teach, you didn't really have to go to Harvard

Graduate School of Education to teach. So, that took care of a number of other

people.

So in the absence of your conversation with Ms. Cronkite, do you think you

would have gone to law school?

Yes, my father urged me to take the LSA Ts. Everybody was saying if you fail

you know you can't be a lawyer.

Richmond: Did you ever go home and tell your parents you were going to go to the School of

Social Work?

Abrams: I said to them I might be a social worker.

Richmond: And what was their reaction?

Abrams: My mother thought it was okay; my father thought it was terrible.

Richmond: Did he tell you why it was terrible?

Abrams: He doesn't like social workers. He must have known some of them.

- 17 -

Richmond: So he didn't think much of that idea. Was there ever any discussion about if you

do this we are going to pay, if you don't do this, we won't.

Abrams: No, I always knew they would pay tuition.

Richmond: And as far as you knew then, he was expressing a view but he didn't say you can't

go to school?

Abrams: No.

Richmond: So when do you think he started talking about taking the LSA Ts?

Abrams: Probably the summer of my junior year.

Richmond: You didn't have any burning desire to be a lawyer?

Abrams: No.

Richmond: You could have been a social worker, you could have gone to law school, you

could have done anything.

Abrams: I could have been a teacher.

Richmond: What would you have done in graduate school? What would you have studied?

Abrams: History.

Richmond: To be a history teacher?

Abrams: Yes.

Richmond: A history teacher at what level? A professor?

Abrams: Probably the high school or junior college.

Richmond: Why?

Abrams: Because we didn't have any women professors. How's that? I didn't even know

if they had women who could teach in college. I didn't have one women

professor.

- 18 -

Richmond: So that being a college professor just didn't seem the way to go?

Abrams: They didn't exist.

Richmond: But there were no women lawyers either.

Abrams: Sure there were. There were some people who were doing titles, that went to BU

Law School.

Richmond:

Abrams:

So you knew that from other places, not necessarily from Harvard.

Right and because of being in my father's law office. Sometimes women lawyers

would come in, he would hire them to do a title or something like that.

Richmond: Had you ever met a woman lawyer?

Abrams: Yes, I knew some from doing titles.

Richmond: Have you ever done a title?

Abrams: Yes, I was a star with a friend of mine. She intended on buying a house in

Wayland. She called me up and told me about the house. I told her I'll go right

over and look at the title. She said there was no need, Boston Five Cent Savings

Bank has the current mortgage and it will do ours as well. Nevertheless, I went

over to the Registry to look at the title. I found a bridle path going straight

through the middle of the house. So I thought I'm'doing it wrong. I called her up

and said "big problem". There seems to be a bridle path right through the house.

I don't know what to do about it. She called the Boston Five Cents Savings Bank

from whom she was getting the mortgage. The lawyer said that I was wrong but

they wanted to know the book and page number. I had enough sense to take the

book and page number (no photocopies then) and I gave it to her. I called her

- 19 -

back two or three days later and said "there is a bridle path but they use only the

very end of the back yard". She cancelled the sale after that.

Richmond: Isn't that funny? That is a great story.

Abrams: But I had no confidence. I thought I was doing it wrong.

Richmond: Now why do you think you had no confidence in that?

Abrams: Because I had never done a title and all of a sudden I found a defect.

Richmond: I remember one thing you said to me when I was clerking for you. You said it

and I've quoted it now for 35 years. And that was that there is nothing new under

the sun.

Abrams: That is true.

Richmond: And that if it is happening now you will find that it has happened before. So

whenever I came upon something which did not seem to be a matter of first

impression, I would assume that I had missed it and that if you went back enough

you would find where it was and always be glad you did.

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That may not be true now with the Internet.. That may not be true now. It

certainly was true then.

I know you were surprised about the notion that we were going to have more than

one session, but this first interview is close to supposed to be just the background

of early childhood and family. I think we have gotten further than that, but I still

want to go back to how you ended up in law school.

I got in.

I understand you got in.

That was it.

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But now it is the summer before your senior year. Did you ever work?

I worked every summer; I worked for different people. I worked for my father's

client Newton Potters and Supply; making clay, getting things ready. They had a

flood and I dealt with the insurance company. That was my first legal experience.

The insurance company kept saying "why should we pay for this" and I kept

saying "because we bought insurance". I knew nothing about the law.

Richmond: But you figured as long as you have the insurance somebody should be willing to

pay for it?

Abrams: And actually they did settle it by the end of the summer.

Richmond: That was the summer between what year and what year?

Abrams: That was between the summer of' 48 and '49.

Richmond: That was the summer before your senior year? What had you done before that

job?

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I worked in Lechmere Sales and I worked in my father's office for two months

putting the CCH' s together and the advance sheets. They learned all about the

advance sheets and the CCH' s and how they come all the time and you have to

keep updating them.

But doing all that you didn't have a burning desire to go into law?

I knew I didn't want to be a legal librarian.

Now this is Side 2 of Tape 1. It is now about quarter of five and we've been gone

for about an hour. I think we will pick up here at our next session. We've gotten

so far that we are right before Justice Abrams' senior year in college and we are

trying to find out how it was that she ended up in law school and she has told me

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that she ended up in law school because she got accepted. But it may be more

than that. That is a good start.

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ORAL HISTORY OF THE HON. RUTH I. ABRAMS (Ret.)

SECOND INTERVIEW

October 11, 2009

This is the second interview of the oral history of Ruth I. Abrams which is being taken on behalf

of Women Trailblazers in the Law, a Project of the American Bar Association Senior Lawyers

Division. It is being conducted by Elaine Epstein on October 11, 2009.

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I graduated from Radcliffe in 1953 and started law school. Nineteen women were

admitted and 560 men. Thirteen women graduated from Harvard in that class. A

"hostile environment" is what it would be called today.

Let's go back to your senior year of college. When people heard you were

applying to law school, what was the reaction?

Well, my roommate Dee Waelder was going to medical school, so it didn't seem

so out of character. Most people I think in that era were either getting married

and/or taking a graduate course in teaching at Harvard, a one year program where

you got a masters in education.

And you said you thought about social work?

I did, I did think about it.

Was there anything in particular that tipped you towards law school?

I think my father wanted me to go to law school. He thought there was a great

future for women in the law.

Smart guy.

He thought it was a good choice. I don't think he thought the numbers of women

that are now in law school would happen.

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So, at home you of course had the encouragement to, if not the order, to go to law

school?

Yes, but even at Radcliffe one of the deans, I think it was Dean Kirby-Miller (I

don't know that her first name was) was encouraging women to go to graduate

school. She said to me "why don't you just apply to law school. Just apply.

What can happen? Maybe you won't go?" So it was easy. I applied to Harvard

because they had the shortest application of any law school. I took the LSAT. I

got in. So I didn't even apply anywhere else and when you get in you really think

you are going to go. You don't think "I will think about it". People nowadays do

think about going to law school; they think about the cost and loans, but at that

point law school was $600 or $700 for tuition - not room and board. Applying

today's standards - $600 was a lot then but it wasn't anything like what it is today.

Did you know how many women would be in your class?

No.

You must have had an idea.

They had a wonderful statement in their little booklet "about Harvard Law

School" saying a number of select women will be admitted. And what was

interesting was most of the women came from Radcliffe. Why? Because Harvard

trusted Radcliff, i.e., there grading system. It's extraordinary when you think

about it.

Of the 13 women in your law class, excuse me 19, of those 19 women, were they

from Radcliffe. Most of them?

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Yes, 19 of 560. I think they took 5 women. They were very selective, most of the

people came from Radcliffe, Brown, Bryn Mawr.

So as you told others, family and friends, that you were going to law school, were

they surprised? What was their reaction?

My father's family had no problem. They thought it was terrific. My mother's

family a little bit, because they thought it would hurt my chances of getting

married and having children. Who would hire you, what would you do? They

did not have any vision of women practicing law. I think their view was because

the norm was to get married and have children and stay at home - traditional.

Which was certainly the common thing to do at the time.

And that was what they expected. It was expected, it was traditional.

So did you ever have any of those thoughts yourself? Any doubts about going to

law school?

I had no doubts about going to law school. I did have doubts as to whether I

could lead a traditional life after law school -- and I didn't.

It's still an issue for women, what do you know!

But you do think about it. But I don't think that's an issue today, because women

work today. I had only one friend whose mother worked.

Of course your mother didn't work?

Not outside the home. All women work - it just depends on where.

Of your friends in college at Radcliffe, did many of them go to graduate school?

Or law school? Or medical school?

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One of my roommates, Dee Waelder, went to medical school. Many went on to

get a masters in education. A few did social work or public health. So I would

say that Radcliffe was a little bit different from the other colleges. I would say a

third or more went on to get an advanced degree.

So you weren't alone.

I was not alone but there was a wide variety. One of my friends got into some

writing school, and she did write some children's books when she first got out.

She is not writing that much now.

Was the faculty at Radcliffe supportive of women going on?

No. Radcliffe had no faculty. Harvard faculty was our faculty. There were no

women at that time on the Harvard faculty.

How did your teachers feel then? Were they supportive?

Staff was supportive. Well, from having very big classes to smaller seminars.

So you could not look to that group for support or encouragement?

I don't know where they are now. Harvard is working hard at trying to get more

women faculty at the law school, so that we get a 10 student/teacher ratio.

Interesting. So, what did you do the summer between graduating from Radcliffe

and law school starting?

I had a job in July at a pottery store. It was fun. It was a retail store, so I played

with potter's wheels. It was a different world and I got to know lots of people

who did artistic things. They made dishes, tried to sell them. The local schools

used to come and order all kinds of clay. It's a whole different view of the world.

Exactly.

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Then in August I went to the Cape.

When you went the Cape, where did you go?

My cousins rented a house down in Wellfleet. We had a house in Hull, which my

sister now lives in. So we always had that for weekends.

So you showed up in September and what was that like?

Overwhelming, absolutely overwhelming. Picture a big class with mostly men.

You didn't really understand what law school was like. The students say it is

better now. I made one friend, the very first day - a lawyer in NY now, Bob

Gelfman. We got this little case to buy and sell a house and the agreement said

the sale would not go through if the house was destroyed by an act of God. The

house was struck by lightening. Did the deal go through or not? Bob said

because it was destroyed by an act of God and the act of God exempts the

agreement. The professor said: "What is an act of God? An act no reasonable

man thinks God would do or an act no reasonable God would do?" I knew I was

lost ... absolutely lost, because I thought Bob's answer was perfect.

Did they have anything at all that helped orient you or tell you what law school

would be like, or even welcomed you?

No. To this day when they have a reunion, there is one session when women still

gripe about being a woman there in the l 950's. The dean had a dinner for women

only.

Did the dean do that to be helpful?

I do not know. It was a horrible dinner. All the dean said was that we would be

lucky to get any job in law, even as a secretary. I don't think Harvard was ready

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to admit women even though it was 1950. We were the last national law school

to admit women.

And you were in the class that started the fall of 1953. Did he have this little talk

at the beginning of the year?

No, it was a dinner around November.

That's unbelievable.

And if you go to any reunion at Harvard with women, it's 5 5 years of women at

Harvard, I think they are coming up in their 60th. When they have that session

"What do you want to talk about?" they all want to talk about how terrible that

dinner was.

How did that affect you at the time? What did you think of it?

I just thought he represented Harvard faculty and how law schools were. Big law

firms, interviewed, but you couldn't get an interview with them at the law school

if you were a women. Things have progressed. I know some women don't think

that, but I do.

So how did it feel at first? You described feeling "overwhelmed".

It's fearful.. absolutely fearful. The though of getting called on, the fear of not

understanding and being part of a small minority in such a big group.

Was that a factor, were the women called on frequently?

They had what they called "ladies day" and on that day the faculty called on

women. It was called ladies day.

Was that announced in advance?

Yes.

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Now, when it wasn't ladies day, would they call on you?

No. A saving grace in some places if you didn't know what the issues were or

what a good answer would be. You would not be called on.

So it was announced that it was ladies day coming up?

Next week is ladies day, different days in different classes.

This was what a weekly occurrence?

In some, it was once a month, some classes once or twice a year. Because people

that didn't want women there at all wanted it to be twice a year maximum.

Let's talk about the ones who perhaps were more accepting of women there,

where it might have happened more frequently. How were you treated when you

were called on? Same as the men?

They were equal opportunists with critical remarks. I am not sure that the men

didn't have some of the same problems. Sink or swim attitudes. Just can't do it.

They didn't complain and we didn't either. We had to tough it out. There was no

women's lib at that time.

So did the women talk among themselves about that?

They would say, "Oh God it's ladies day, maybe I will get called on - what should

I wear?" Big problems - what should I wear!

And in each of your classes, all of the women would not be in the same class?

No, you would have even a smaller number, because there were four sections

divided by four. In my class 13 women graduated, 2 transferred because they got

married, and at Columbia you could get credits, like Ruth Bader Ginsberg did.

But if you came from Columbia to Harvard Law School, Harvard didn't want to

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give credits. Judge Ruth Bader Ginsberg mentions this all the time. She finished

at Columbia and Harvard would not credit her Columbia year. Columbia, on the

other hand, gave her credit for her years at Harvard Law School.

What happened to the other women who didn't make it?

Some of them quit, one member of my class we can't find - nobody can find her.

But most of them did work.

So they dropped out of law school, but they did work.

Of the 19 that got there, yes. Some of them taught high school, where the law

school training was very helpful. So I think all of them did work. The lost

member of the class, she used to write history - so we tried to find her through

that.

Do you remember ever talking to any of the women who were thinking about

dropping out of law school?

No, not really a topic of conversation. People sometimes said "well I have this

boyfriend and I think I might have to get married, and I don't know if I am going

to finish, money." Things like that.

How did your male classmates treat you?

Some were very good, some I am still friendly with. One who died and I am still

friendly with his wife and daughter. So you did have a variety. Understand they

are same age, so they don't have the same biases as the people who have been at

the law school. At the business school, they didn't permit women until 1964.

Harvard was a real male college. It was founded as a male college and a male law

school. The medical school did a little better.

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Were you treated less than well by some of your classmates? Did some resent

your being there?

You couldn't tell, because they couldn't say it. But many professors thought that

women were taking the place of a man who had to support his family. Of course,

many women have to support themselves - that apparently scared a whole lot of

people. It is much more realistic now, and even if you have children it's only 18

years out of a life. Life is expected to be very long. So people didn't expect

women to work. It seems to me reflecting on it, it was not realistic. Now, of

course, they expected people to do work. Then, it was only volunteer work.

Now when you went to law school were you living in a dorm or did you live at

home?

There were no dorms for women back then, so I had an apartment with a friend

who was working.

This is when you were an undergraduate?

No law school, undergraduate you have to live either at the dorm or at home.

Now the kids have other various arrangements except in Cambridge where there

was shortage of apartments.

So you lived with a friend in an apartment throughout law school?

Well, one year, and then the next year a friend of mine was getting a master's

degree at Brandeis and working and I took an apartment with her. The first year

my roommate was working and getting married.

Where were your apartments, in Cambridge?

Cambridge, yes.

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Did your parents pay for your law school education?

Yes, but that was more a bigger part of American life. The strain today and the

expense put on families and women is different.

So you were fortunate?

I was very lucky. Because most of education then was they gave you a

scholarship, you got the money. Now they lend it to you.

Now your second year did it work out better with your roommate who also

needed to study?

Yes, she was getting her master's and she had a job besides. I am still trying

remember how we did it.

Who did you live with your third year?

Same person .. That lasted about five years.

So let's go back to your first year. What were your courses, were they standard

first year courses?

Property, contracts, torts, criminal law, and civil procedure. Civil procedure, the

most obtuse course for any first year law student, because there is no way you can

really understand where you put the piece of paper.

Of course, it was before the rules were made simple.

It was, but we were taught not local practice, but federal practice. So we were

taught the federal rules.

So the law schools did not teach state practice?

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Other law schools did. National law schools could not teach local rules. So they

always did federal practice.

Were there particular classes that you liked more than others?

I liked torts, contracts, criminal law - those were good. I didn't understand civil

procedure and I certainly didn't understand property. It was very strange -

covenants running with land. I knew I would never be a real estate lawyer. After

I checked the title for my friend and found the bridle path going through the house

she was going to buy, the lawyer for Boston Five Cent Savings Bank asked if I

wanted a job in their legal department. According to him, it was a good job for

women. Along the way I would get various job offers.

What was it like socially to be such part of such a small minority? In that law

school atmosphere, were you able to relax, have friends?

You could have some friends and you did because they had to study too. So they

would tell each other they didn't understand and you knew you weren't the only

one that was certainly not following the agenda. But you certainly weren't

wondering what they were talking about.

How large were the study groups?

5-8 people. They were named after Harvard Law professors, Casner, Club,

Seavey and Leach. They were set up formally because they had what they called

the "Ames" competition, when you had to write a brief and make an oral

argument.

From the study group?

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Study group was one team versus another team and everybody had to do that.

Now everybody does not have to do that.

How large was your study group?

I was the 5, so I was 5th.

So were you the only women in the group?

Yes, but I could write and they would tell me to do the brief.

So they were glad to have you?

They were happy to have me, I am still friendly with most of them.

Did the study group stay with you all three years or did it change?

It changed.

Were the other women typically the only women in a study group?

Yes, because you have 560 men in small groups and divide 19 women, no way.

You had to get asked, so it was always a nerve racking thing because you were

going to be asked.

So was there some point in your freshman year when you felt less overwhelmed

and more confident?

Only after I got into the second year, because in the first year they told us one out

of every three were going to flunk out. They did not do that. It is a very nervous

year and no exams until the end of the year. So you are on edge whole year. It

was really a very hard education. On the other hand, they say that is the way the

practice of law is.

So when you got your grades, you knew you were fine. What were your grades?

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They were good but not as good as they were at Radcliffe. But they were fine.

The one field I knew I wasn't going to do was domestic relations.

So they taught domestic relations?

They did in the second year, not the first year. Second year was good. They

taught constitutional law and that was another aspect of criminal law.

So were your classes the second year dictated or could you elect?

You had to take corporations, I think you had to take equity and tax.

What were your choices, do you remember?

Domestic relations, because that is where women would be able to find jobs!

And you hated it?

Ohhh, I mean it is a field in which you have to be willing to say I don't care how

badly people are treated. I just don't like it. I constantly think about another way

to do family law. The courts and the "winner takes all" - it's a bad system in

which lawyers end up with the family assets and people hating each other. It is

not a good aspect of the legal system.

There should be a better system?

If I could find out I would surely come up with it.

Did you think that even when you took the course?

Yes, I always thought it was a bad subject, how to take advantage of this one and

that one. I just don't think it's a good system. One of the people that teaches

became a friend of mine, Monroe Inker, he liked it.

So he was in law school with you?

He was an adjunct professor.

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And your other elective was what?

Criminal law.

Which you liked?

I did.

So as you selected these courses were you thinking about what kind of law you

might like to practice?

No. I just wanted to get done. I knew I could always work with my father. I got

a job with Boston Legal Aid and then Monroe Inker called and said he wanted to

take me over to meet the Middlesex D.A. The D.A. was a client and a friend of

his. I went over and what they needed was somebody to write, because nobody

would do briefs. They all wanted to be in court. The DA said, "I don't have an

opening now but I expect one in June and that will be yours."

And that would have been June of your senior year?

I was already out a year or so.

So what did you do when you first got out of law school?

I worked with my father and he had two major cases; Samia v. Central Oil and

Michaelson v. Old Silver Beach. I wrote the brief and some of the trial memos

with my brother. I had plenty to do and then I went over the DA's office, did the

appeals cases and became an Assistant D.A. And in a way it was easier for

women then than now, because the DA would get one first assistant and five or

six second assistants and the salaries were set by the legislature so you didn't get

paid less, you got paid the same as everyone else. Now the DA sets salaries and I

don't know if it's fair to women now or not. I rather suspect that it's not too

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unfair, because there are a lot of women as ADA's. Getting paid the same from

my perspective was good because you never felt you were working so hard, and

he's not working, and I am being paid less.

During your senior year, your last year of law school, did you assume you would

work for your father? Or did you think about doing other things?

I applied, but he needed me. From my perspective he needed someone and would

rather hire me. And then my brother came in, because he was one year behind

me.

How many other lawyers did your dad's office have?

He was a single practitioner.

By himself.

Yes, so he needed the help.

Did he have a secretary?

He had a part time secretary, but they didn't do what they do now. They weren't

paralegals, they didn't do paralegal work- pleadings, writing, correcting and

things like that.

You did the rest yourself?

Yes.

So your dad was looking forward to the help?

Right.

So did you apply other places for jobs?

Just Boston Legal Aid.

Did you think about applying elsewhere or you didn't?

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I didn't. I knew I was needed. I sort of applied because they came to the law

school and they interviewed women.

Of the 13 women who graduated, what was their experience like looking for jobs?

I think it was difficult but they all got jobs. Now, you have to put that in

perspective: they came from all over the United States and they have a Harvard

degree, so they could get jobs.

What would those jobs look like?

I think they would be office jobs for women: You can do it, but you can't go to

court, you can't do this or that. I did have a job offer from someone I didn't even

apply to. They had a house in back of us in Hull and he wanted me to take over

the secretaries and getting the interrogatories in on time and making sure

everybody was where they should be. I guess that would be an office manager.

Exactly, and that didn't interest you?

Well, I didn't even know if I could manage. And I would have been younger than

all the people I was going to manage.

You were a kid.

I didn't even want to get into something that wasn't the right decision. And I

didn't know if I could do it, and it didn't seem to me to be fun. I guess now it's a

good job.

But it's not a legal job.

Oh I don't know. That is what Catherine White is doing. They young lawyers

argue in front of her before they go out to court. She asks them the kind of

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questions they might be asked. So she likes it. I don't think it is quite the same as

those days.

Do you remember any particular experience that some of the other women had to

get a job?

I don't. I know a couple of them did go into family firms. I was not alone in that

case.

That is probably why they were encouraged to go to law school anyway.

And then some of them became clerks, but even that was closed to women.

So, actually let's talk a little more about your law school days. How did that

change for you over the course of a few years?

I became much less fearful. After you know you understand it, and you can do it,

so you are not quite as fearful. And I think also because you get used to seeing

more and more women.

The class behind you, do you think had more women?

I am not sure.

There were just more women around?

Yes, there were more women around.

What did you do over the summers between your law school years?

What did I do? I worked for my father the last summer after the bar, the summer

before. No I worked for him both summers, because I had to write that brief. I

was pretty good at doing briefs by that time. I did briefs for Monroe Inker. And

my first court appointment was right after I passed the bar. I was appointed an

overseer of an account of a woman in a state hospital down on the Cape.

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How did Judge Keville know you?

He knew my father.

Did you enjoy that court appointment, did it make you feel good?

I got paid $25. I drove down to the Cape and met the client and wrote a 2 page

report.

Did you get other court appointments?

I was a member of the voluntary defenders department. They had a rule that you

could represent them in the district court. It was wonderful. The office sent me to

Lynn to represent a woman charged with receiving stolen goods. I didn't have a

car, so I went with my mother and drove down there. I was filing all kinds of

motions to strike, to change venue - typical federal motions, not Massachusetts

motions. The judge said this is not a federal case. I won't rule on them. I had a

motion to suppress, I was filing everything.

You were creative.

I filed 17 motions and I objected to every piece of testimony from the kids. At the

end, my client was acquitted and all of the kids got convicted of being juvenile

delinquents. When I went downstairs, my mother was waiting and I introduced

her to my mother. My mother said "don't introduce me to people like that." She

didn't want to meet them. She kept saying "is that what you are going to do, get

all those terrible people off?"

This was the case with the Voluntary Defenders?

Judge Tom Dwyer was the head of voluntary defenders then.

And did you take other cases with them too? Did you have a number of cases?

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I did, but this is the one that sticks out in my mind because it was not a just result.

It was just not a just result. You have all those kids convicted and the main

culprit acquitted. That result still bothers me. I do believe in justice. And that

was not a just result -- a good lawyer result, but not a just result.

How were you treated in court? How were you received on that case?

Well I remember the motion session in Boston when they called everybody else

first. But that was sort of expected. Some of the older women, members of

MA WL would tell me "don't even complain because, that is the way it's going to

be."

How did you get hooked up with MA WL?

I would just sit there and talk to people. There was no other women's group.

MAWL was it.

Would you see many other women in court?

A few.

And they were doing what kind of work?

Mostly they were doing titles.

So you would just see them mostly in the court house?

Well sometimes some of them would have sort of little domestic relations

motions, but no "ladies first."

How were you treated? Did the Court Officers treat you any particular way?

No, they didn't. You weren't seen. So they sort of ignored you.

How about the clerks and other court personnel?

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They were always helpful. They were always helpful, but you were always last,

because your time was not as important as other people's.

Do you remember some of the judges from back in that era and how they treated

you?

Judge Hudson, I recall when I was in the DA's office and he was very difficult.

We used to have a monthly list. And of course when the lawyers heard Judge

Hudson was coming, half of them pleaded on Thursday and Friday. So on

Monday morning, they said you take the list. The first case called had pled on the

Friday before. The judge started yelling at everyone about not notifying him, and

keeping it on the list. Finally, he asked who is responsible for this list. I said I

was. He walked off the bench. He told the court officer to bring me in the lobby.

He said "I admire the fact you took responsibility for the list. If you do your job

right we will get along." So every time he came, I did the list - it didn't matter

what else I was doing. But when he asked who was responsible for keeping the

case on the list, I had to say it was me, otherwise it would have gone on forever.

You have to be a little bit of a psychologist to be a lawyer. You have to kind of

figure it out.

Now you said when you went to the DA's office you were hired to write the

briefs. So you did several of those at first. Were you put into court at first or not?

Not till after I got a little training. I tried like everybody else and I learned

whatever, how to get pictures in.

So this would have been in District Court in Middlesex?

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Yes District. I thought it was a lot of fun. I never thought I would like it, but I

did like it.

How long did you do that, district court?

Well they didn't separate it as it is now, so there was nobody else around to take

the case.

And if there was a brief that needed to be written, you wrote it?

Yes.

So did you continue doing brief writing?

Yes.

And then you would also be in Court. Would you get to Superior Court also?

Oh yes. A woman who was murdered in Belmont and I interviewed the witnesses

before the ADA did. Her daughter was on the witness stand being examined.

Defense counsel asked "did you talk to anybody from the DA's office" and she

said "no". Defense counsel said "didn't you talk to Ruth Abrams" and she ~aid

she didn't know that she was an ADA. After awhile, the assistants, lots of people

would choose me if they were trying a murder case. They would say I want her to

be second chair because I don't want to be alone on this case, it's too complicated

to do this and do that.

So you were reliable?

And I was delighted.

How many years were you with Middlesex?

7 or 8.

And that would have been 20 years?

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No, 8 years.

8 years, I'm sorry through 1968.

Then I went to work with Bob Quinn. He was a classmate, he called me up and

said "how would you like to work for me?"

And he was where at the time?

He was just elected the Attorney General. So whatever year that was. I would

work in the criminal bureau. The Attorney General does all the habeas corpus

work and he argued cases in the Supreme Court they granted certiorari.

Going back to the years that you were in Middlesex, did you do the same kind of

work while you were there the whole time, a combination of brief writing?

Yes, it's all criminal, trial work.

Any particular trials that you remember, other than your first volunteer lawyers

case?

I tried a case in June 1964. Three students were charged with serving food

without a license. It was very hot and the courthouse had no air conditioning. I

told the judge I had 2 witnesses. The clerk who said the students had no license

(not denied by them) and an officer who had been served coffee and a donut. I

told the judge my case would take 15 or 20 minutes and that the case should be

tried because some of the defendants were graduating and would not be here in

the fall. The Judge said ok, but be quick. It was I :30 and it was very, very hot. I

put my witnesses on in IO minutes. I watched the judge write "not guilty" on the

verdict slip. The young lawyer then put on witness after witness about peace and

what the U.S. was doing was wrong. I objected but let it go so the trial would

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finish. The defense went on for 2 hours. The judge was getting very angry, really

angry. When the defense rested, I said my witnesses were truthful and the

defendants served food without a license. Defense counsel (young) then

proceeded to argue his case. Then he said there is a case in West Texas that

requires you to acquit. The judge said he did not want either the citation or the

opinion. They lawyer then went on a lengthy explanation of the case. I watched

the judge and I saw him cross out the word "not" on the verdict slip. I use this

case to tell young lawyers to watch the judge to see how you are doing and to stop

when the judge seems to be going your way.

And so it turned into a guilty?

The judge wanted to go home. I don't blame him.

Were you handling things yourself from the beginning or were you second chair?

I was it. They wanted to put the pictures in, there was no second chair there. But

on the murder cases, there was a second chair. You can't just throw somebody in

on a murder case. In other cases, it doesn't matter so much and jurors weren't so

hard on people. Jurors are good barometers with marijuana and driving under the

influence cases. The jurors always acquitted people no matter how good the case

was on driving under the influence. It's not true now, as there is much more

public awareness. But at that point public awareness was not out there and people

just felt sorry for the defendant. The jurors thought "there, but for the grace of

God, it could be me".

Did you get to the point where you were trying if not murder cases other jury

cases where someone was second chairing for you?

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Occasionally, but what happened was everybody was working full-time. I was

also co-counsel on the DeSalvo case, who was alleged to be the Boston Strangler.

Don Conn and I tried him for some garden variety criminal cases. I also was co­

counsel with DA Richard Kelly on the Carrigan case, which was the last or next

to last capital case in Massachusetts.

How many were there in the DA's office?

When I started there was a first and second and 12 second assistants. We had a

program of mock trials for the public and in schools. You learned how to by

doing the mock trials.

What was your title?

ADA, there were no titles. There was a First Assistant, and everybody else was

Second.

And you were the only women the whole time you were there?

But when I left, the DA hired a friend of mine, Charlotte Perretta, a defense

lawyer.

So she went in after you left.

As I left.

How did you know Charlotte Perretta?

I knew her because she was with Monroe Inker and defended defendants in

Middlesex.

So were there any gender issues in working in the DA' s office? Did anyone treat

you differently because you were a woman?

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At first the police were not happy, but after a while they would rather have me

than the other DAs. That was just a question of getting used to me. On that issue

I think it's a question of familiarity.

How about the Judges?

It varied.

Varied from what to what?

Varied from they didn't want me or didn't care.

Can you think of specific instances that they treated you differently because they

didn't want you?

Depends who the judge was, but it was clear one judge didn't want me in the

courtroom. He said I could not be in the courtroom without a hat and white

gloves. The white gloves and a hat were an excuse. Do you know how dirty

Middlesex was? Some judges wanted court officers in the lobby like the MDs

did.

What did you say to that? Did he tell you that directly?

Yes.

What did you say?

I was stunned, I didn't say anything. I mean what was I going to say?

Good job. What happened without the white gloves and the hat?

I said there was nobody else who could try the case.

So he just accepted it?

I think the court officer told him to back off, or the court clerk.

How did he treat you after that? Like he was tolerating you?

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You know how judges are. Some are moody. I think he didn't want me in the

courtroom but he could not do anything about women in the courtroom.

And what did woman wear in the courtroom in those days?

Dresses and skirts. Women were wearing short skirts in the 60's so one of the

judges had green curtains made for the jury box so that the lawyers would not

look at women jurors' legs. The craziest stuff around but most women were

wearing suits. Basically a matching skirt, white blouse and a jacket.

Occasionally women would wear pants, but some judges would object to pants

suits.

Did you ever wear pant suits?

People weren't wearing pant suits then. I took on as many fights as I could.

Some fights are not worth taking on.

What were the fights that you would take on?

Well, just being there, begin able to take a case and say to the police that I am

trying the case, you have to answer my questions, you have to do this or that.

You felt that it was your right to be there trying the case?

Well, I was the ADA. The police were difficult. But once you brought them

along in the case, they were very loyal, very loyal.

In those years that you worked for the DA's office, did you continue living in

Cambridge?

I did. I lived in Cambridge until 2001, and then I moved to Boston.

Were you living with a roommate?

No by myself. After I retired, I moved to Boston.

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Was your family pleased when you went to the DA's office?

Yes. They thought it was good, they didn't like the defenders.

Did your brother stay practicing with your dad?

Yes, he still practices at Wilmer Hale. His office is there but he is not a partner.

What is your brother's first name?

George. You must know him. George would never be a judge. He collects art.

I'm sure you know him.

I'll tell you a wonderful thing. The AG's office was located (criminal division) at

the edge of the Combat Zone. I was walking up to a meeting at the State House

and this fellow starts berating me and yelling at me about I don't know what -

screaming at me. So I stopped the police at the comer and said "that that man is

accosting me and annoying me within the meaning of Chapter 272, § 63." The

police officer looked at me and said "that's his constitutional right." I said "I

don't think my name is in the Constitution." I don't think that would happen

today but it was really eye-opener to what the police were then. So he said "what

I will do, is I'll call and have someone walk you up there." An officer came on

the walk through the Common and the Gardens, with this guy following us

screammg.

You know where the Colonial Theatre is, near there.

Now what year was it when you went there?

'68 or '69. I will have to check. How much help can a citizen be when you tell

them what the statute is and everything else?

He didn't know he was talking to a prosecutor.

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He didn't know to whom he was talking. It was such a wonderful response.

What did you feel about going to Quinn's office and leaving the DA's office?

I was really sad, I loved the DA's office, the people and the challenge. I felt at

home there, I knew everybody, they were all friends and it was fun. I really

enjoyed it. I view it as the most fun job I ever had.

Did you have that kind of friendship and camaraderie in the office?

Yes.

So they became your friends too?

Yes, there was really a lot of camaraderie. The cases were fun and the police

were funny. You know it was like being in a grade B movie everyday. Everyday,

it was like that.

So did Droney try to get you to stay, or everyone knew this was the right thing for

you?

No, he knew it was the right thing. But he said, "you can come back."

Why did he, and you, think it was the right move?

To do something else. And Quinn, he wanted me to come. He too had appeals to

do. When people are desperate!

They tum to you. So you must have become reliable.

I could write them in my sleep. The court had a formula for how they wanted

briefs set up.

A formula for brief writing?

Well what they had was, Facts, Argument One, Argument Two. Now it's a little

more mixed up because they have all these points, and they don't have

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exceptions. It was easier then in that sense that you could always say that

arguments were not based on exceptions.

I see. When you wrote these briefs, did you get to go argue them?

Some, and some I would have other people argue to have the trial lawyer do it.

You would decide case by case. Also, if you thought the prosecutor's final

argument was going to be a problem, it's better to have the trial lawyer make the

argument on the case.

Do you remember any particular argument that stands out in your mind that you

did? Did you enjoy that?

It gets very nerve racking ... very nervous feelings for any lawyer. It doesn't

matter -- you're there, they are going to ask questions, what if they ask you

something you can't answer, can't remember in the record? I don't think I am

different from other lawyers, both men and women.

Of course there wouldn't have been any women on the bench. Can you remember

any women on the bench any place that you appeared in front of and in court?

Jennie Loitman Barron was on the Superior Court. She had been on the Boston

Municipal Court. She was older.

Did you appear in front of her?

No, she didn't do criminal work.

Did you ever talk to her about what it was like?

No, but it was interesting that she would appoint me as a GAL for this or that and

it would come in the mail.

So she would appoint you GAL?

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Yes.

Even though you were in the DA's office?

Well, it was a part-time job.

So you could take other work?

But I didn't. Those [GAL appointments] I did. I could do them relatively easily.

I didn't want bigger things with complicated issues. They were little tiny things.

But she always was looking to appoint me.

Why do you think she appointed you?

She was looking for women, I think she was looking for women. I think she felt

that they were making fun of her. She thought lawyers would say she wasn't

qualified and all of that. She was in a very difficult position. She was the first

women on the Boston Municipal Court and on the Superior Court.

Do you remember how that was greeted at the time, when she was on the bench?

Everybody tried to avoid her. I don't know if that was her ability or whether

lawyers did not trust a woman. It was hard to know.

Do you remember hearing talk about her?

At least you laugh about it. She was very good about asking about family and is

everything all right and "oh I'm sorry you came to court today if you had a cold."

She was very motherly. I think that is not acceptable amongst most men. There

were not a lot of women, and she had children so she did not socialize very much.

In those years when you were in the DA's office, and then the AG's office, did

you have other women friends who were lawyers?

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I knew Charlotte Perretta, I knew Marilyn Sullivan, I knew Ruth O'Brien. Ruth

O'Brien and Marilyn Sullivan were in the legal department of real estate at Ropes

& Gray.

Would they join you?

No, they were all in Boston and I was out in Cambridge.

I see.

I was nowhere.

The group would meet to get together to talk, so this wasn't a formal group?

Ruth O'Brien had a lot of children. And she and Marilyn were in the real estate

department of Ropes & Gray so they were together a lot of the time.

How was that for them, did they talk to you about that?

I think Marilyn liked it but she left to became a Judge because Ropes didn't make

her a partner. She was their chief counsel on major malls being constructed then.

After that, they did make Ruth O'Brien a partner. She was doing it all, she did all

their real estate work.

Work you didn't want to do.

I had to do all that stuff, all those rules. One of my experiences when I was

practicing with my father, my cousin bought a house. A lawyer named Joe Fine

did all real estate work. I was directed to his office. He yelled at me that my

name was not on the back to mail the deed to me after it was filed. I looked at the

paperwork and on the back it didn't have my name and address, or anything. I

said you are wrong. This is not the deed and that is why my name is not on the

back. It was a good thing I looked at it.

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But not the kind of work you wanted to do?

Well, I know enough to look at documents before I said ok. I had a lot of friends,

I had people who looked at property out in Wayland. It was across the street from

the DA's office so I said I'll go look. I looked and I saw a bridle path right

through the middle of the house. So I called her up and she said it can't be

because the Boston 5 says there isn't one. I said maybe they did it wrong. Of

course, the Boston 5 called and asked me how did you find that, but she ended the

purchase.

Did you and your women friends talk about how you were treated?

In the 60's, after the civil rights law which added "women", consciousness

became higher.

So before that there was more acceptance?

It's me ... I would think it was me ... was there something wrong with me?

Women always think there is something wrong with themselves. I don't know

why.

So if you didn't get a job at a firm it was your deficiency not theirs?

And if someone mistreated you, you thought "I did something wrong." We

didn't really think about it being a gender thing until 1964 or 65.

Even though you must have known, assuming you were a women.

You do know it, but until they raise your consciousness, you thought it was you.

You feel that there is someway you could have overcome that?

You don't really understand that it's just gender. It was 1964 when they did that

and the law school would go to Radcliffe and talk to the undergraduates, and

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more and more of them came to the pre-law meeting. And Harvard had a pre-law

project they let women in that was very good, right?

Did you stay connected to Harvard so you knew those things were going on?

I stayed connected to Radcliffe. But it's gone, sad to say.

As are all those schools, Barnard and ...

And Jackson. They are all gone.

As the 60's progressed though, did you and your friends start talking more about

the lack of opportunities?

Even my friends who were married and had kids kept saying "I want my daughter

to do something. What should I do? I want my son to be more responsive."

As you went through those years do you remember you and some of your friends

feeling pressure to take a more traditional path?

No. I was set on my path. There was no way that that was going to come back as

an issue for me. But there were friends of mine who thought that this was the new

American family. I think the prevalence of divorce helps women see that they

had to be economically independent. I think women finally understood that they

had to be economically independent. We are not reaching very young girls who

are having children, but we should be reaching them and help them understand

that many times the child is going to be supported by you (women).

By the time you went to the AG's office, there were other women there?

Yes, there were, but they were in consumer protection and I was in the criminal

division.

There were no other women in criminal?

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There were women trying cases in the DA's office, not a lot, but they were there.

And there were public defenders. So the number was small, but it was growing.

Were there more women that were on the bench by then?

I was the second woman on the Superior Court.

You were only the second?

There was Beatrice Mullaney, who was on the Probate Court. I don't know if

there were any other women. But I was only the second woman in Superior

Court. Judge Barron died in 1969.

So let's talk a little bit about the work you did in the AG's office.

It was a little different, because I represented the Commonwealth when a case was

in the federal court. There were many more "white collar" crimes in the AG's

office, not street crime. So it wasn't as much fun and I didn't like it as well. John

Wall, the chief, did not get along with Bob Quinn, so I recruited John Irwin in

from the DA's office and he became chief. So then the sailing was much

smoother for three or four years because they got along, and Quinn trusted us and

it worked out much better.

So you were part of that decision to bring Irwin in?

I called Irwin and said, "can I give them your name?

He had worked with you in the DA's office?

Yes, then I suggested him to Quinn.

The criminal division then was how large?

8 or 9 people. We would go to the federal court when there was a habeas and we

argued the habeas in the First Circuit.

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Do you remember the first time you were in the First Circuit?

Yes, my father, my brother and I were in the First Circuit on a case called Slaney

v. Young. Shortly thereafter I went to the DA's office. When I was sworn into

the federal court there was a Judge McCarthy who looked at the applicants (1

woman, 1 black, 1 Chinese, 2 white males) ~nd said to everyone in the courtroom

"Isn't America a wonderful country when people such as these can become

lawyers."

A good thought!

That's about it. It was sort of funny.

Now this would have been the first time you were in federal court?

Only with my father.

But I thought you said in the AG's office you would be in federal court?

Yes, that's right, but in the DA's office we let the AG take it, except when you go

in and you have a capital case.

Why?

The AG didn't believe in capital punishment. The AG would send the capital

punishment cases back to the DA's office which tried the case.

How long were you in the AG's office?

Three and a half years.

And you didn't enjoy that as much as the DA's office?

No, it was ok.

Did you stay living in Cambridge?

I did, I don't move a lot.

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And you took public transportation?

Of course. I had a car but there is no place to park in Boston. There were no

places then and there are fewer now.

When you were in the AG's office did you become friendly with other women,

even though they were working in different areas?

Yes, Sharon King in consumer protection. Annette Bennedetto in the civil

section.

Anything notable you remember about your years in the AG' s office?

How hard it was to get most young lawyers to work on controversial issues like

capital punishment, abortion, birth control. If a controversial case came up, the

lawyer (mostly male) would say "I don't want to work on that or argue that

because it might hurt my career. I don't think I should argue that case. It might

hurt my career." People still think that way. People still are saying that now.

How did you feel about that?

A job is a job. Some of the assistants would say they did not want to argue a

"nothing" case or one on capital punishment. "It might hurt my career. I might

want to apply for a certain job, so I don't think I should argue that case against so

and so." People think about that and they think about it more than they used to

back then.

Did you ever take any cases that others didn't want to argue?

Yes.

Did you think in any of those years about going into private practice?

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I did, when my father died in 1960. I could have gone with my brother but I liked

being independent. I was as independent as you can be as a state employee, but

no one ever said to me don't do this or don't do that.

You had a lot of freedom of action.

A lot of freedom of doing what you wanted to do and setting the policy if you

wanted to set it. So you use your judgment. But I didn't do it all the time.

Was there a point in those years when you ever thought about being a judge?

No.

Did you have that as a remote goal even?

I was not in politics and my father used to say "a judge is a friend of the

governor." There were no women running for office, and it never even dawned

onme.

In those years when you were in the AG's office did you become involved in

MAWL?

I joined MA WL, but I just paid my dues. They didn't do much for women back

then. That is why women started the Women's Bar Association because younger

women wanted to take a position on issues.

So you never really got involved with MA WL?

No, but I was always a member. And a member of the Mass Bar Association, not

the Boston Bar Association.

Did you ever get involved in the Mass. Bar doing anything in particular?

I did a number of programs on criminal law. I also did some programs on

applying for a judgeship.

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In criminal law?

Yes.

Was there discussion about the need to have a Women's Bar Association?

Yes. The Women's Bar founders wanted to submit briefs (amicus) on behalf of

issues important to women and to work for women to be on the judiciary.

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ORAL HISTORY OF THE HON. RUTH I. ABRAMS (Ret.)

THIRD INTERVIEW

February 15, 2010

This is the third interview of the oral history of Ruth Abrams which is being taken on behalf of

Women Trailblazers in the Law, a Project of the American Bar Association Senior Lawyers

Division. It is being conducted by Elaine Epstein on February 15, 2010.

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This is Interview No. 3 with Ruth Abrams. This is Elaine Epstein

and we have just been talking about going back to some

memories of some things starting with why you applied to law

school. So, let's start there.

I love mysteries and when I graduated from Radcliffe, or before I graduated, I

wrote to the FBI that I would like to be an FBI Agent. I received a response

which said that all of their agents were lawyers or accountants and that did help

push me towards law school and going to law school. When I graduated from law

·school I also wrote to the FBI and their response was all their agents were men.

So that is one of the boundaries that has broken down subsequently. The Judge

who I called on New Years day was Frank Good. That is in the second tape and I

will correct that. Then when I went to the District Attorney's Office, the first rule

was I couldn't go into the courtroom when there were any rape or sexual cases

because the jurors would think the case was unimportant.

Unimportant because a woman would be there?

Unimportant because if it were really bad, a women wouldn't be there.

And so the jurors would have been all men on those cases?

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Jurors were all men at that time because women were exempted if they had

children, if they were teachers, there is a whole history of discrimination against

women as jurors in this state on juries.

That's fascinating because that is something that even someone like myself, who

is no youngster, is unaware of. By the time I was in courtrooms there were

women on Junes.

That's right and I will bring the date next time, because there is a history of

women being sort of excluded by having so many exemptions, teachers, mother,

grandmother, whatever. There were mostly men jurors but the fear was that in a

sexual case if I were there, people would think it was an unimportant case.

So you stayed away?

Well, one of the victims said she didn't want to go in the courtroom with no other

women there. So they sent me up.

So, this would have been about what year?

This would have been in the DA's office, let's see, when was I a DA in the 60's

because in 1968 I went to the Attorney General's Office. But by that time that

rule changed. The DA's and the lawyers no longer thought that ifl were in

courtroom the jurors would think that the case was unimportant.

So on this case where the victim asked that women accompany her, what was

your role?

Just to be with her.

So you sat with her?

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I sat with her and talked to her beforehand and told her what kind of questions the

Assistant was going to ask her. The Assistant DA who was trying the case (James

Waldren) was very happy to have me there because he said I could elicit more

information than he ever could.

After that did you begin working on any rape or sexual assault cases?

Oh I certainly did and I had this wonderful case with Judge Robert Sullivan. The

defendant claimed that the victim was willing and consented to sex, therefore, he

didn't rape her. The defendant was on the witness stand. In cross examination,

for whatever reason, he kept saying she is a slut, she was willing, she pursued me.

So I stood up and I said to the Judge "ask him if he knows what being chaste is"?

So the Judge asks "do you know what being chaste is? And the answer was

"yeah, you run and someone runs after you". The judge struck all his evidence.

The police at first also didn't trust me because they were not used to a

woman, particularly with search warrants. They said women talk all the time,

she'll blab about it, we won't get any results. Mind you, I was drafting the

warrant.

This was on any type of case they didn't trust you?

Any type of case, they just didn't trust women. They hadn't seen women in the

courthouse; they hadn't accepted women jurors; there were no woman police

officers at that time and it was just a male club without any women.

Which was certainly the common thing at the time. How did you deal with that?

I just kept plugging away, just keep going everyday no matter what the insult was,

you couldn't get mad. You just had to keep going. I was doing the briefs and

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then on the Kerrigan case, Dick Kelly was trying it and he said to me "I would

really like you to be in the courtroom with me." They didn't have second seats at

that time. It was not a particularly standard procedure. He said "because I think

we will do better if somebody is there to help me when the difficulties arise. You

can tell me what I left out and what I missed."

Smart guy. So you did that?

So I did that, and then it became okay to have me as the second seat. And then

one day Jimmy Waldren didn't show up because he was sick. It was a drunk

driving case. The DA said to me "you've seen a million of them, go try it". And

that is how I got into the courtroom, but it took a lot of persistence and a

willingness to take second seat and a willingness to do the briefs and research on

cases that they didn't want me to be in the courtroom for. But you had to be

persistent. That was the biggest thing.

Was that the first case that you tried in the DA's office yourself?

A drunk driving case, absolutely.

How did you do on it?

The jurors then didn't think drunk driving was very serious. But when I talked to

the jurors after they convicted him, they thought it was more serious than usual

because I was prosecuting. One juror said to me "you must have had a child who

was killed in a drunk driving". Absolutely nothing to do with the case. But that

was the first time a juror thought I was more important.

Could you tell if jurors had any direct response to your being in the courtroom as

a woman?

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No, you could not tell. I think the jurors were better than the law enforcement

personnel as a whole. Because law enforcement was a men's club and women

were coming in. But it was a much better reception with jurors.

How did Judges react to your being in the courtroom?

Variously. Different Judges reacted very differently. I was in the Somerville

District Court on a probable cause hearing on an armed robbery. When the case

was called, I stood up. The Judge went crazy, absolutely crazy. He accused the

D.A. of sending a secretary to do lawyer's work. He threatened to get the D.A.

disbarred for that and stomped off the bench. You could hear a pin drop in the

courtroom. I don't know who told him I was a lawyer, the clerk, the court officer

or the D.A. After awhile, he came out and sat on the bench and presided, but

didn't say much. He found probable cause. The first time I handled the list -- and

the list in Massachusetts is a call of all the cases because they had a little different

system then. The Judge who was coming in on Monday, Judge Hudson, was a

temperamental man. So they decided I would handle the list. Nobody else

wanted to be near him.

As I recall the call of the list in Massachusetts could be controversial, what was

happening to each case.

We had to send them to a session or decide whether to give a continuance or not

give a continuance, depending where they were on the list. On that first Monday

of the month there were at least 300 lawyers in that courtroom. I was the only

women. Judge Hudson was very heavy on sentencing. As a result, on the Friday

before he came, lawyers plea bargained out a zillion cases. Of course, when he

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started calling the cases and heard that one was plea bargained last week and that

one was disposed of, disposed of, disposed of, he lost his cool and he started

yelling at me. "Why were these cases on the list and why if they were disposed

of'. Of course we printed the list a week in advance so that the lawyers have

some notice of where they are on the list and what the problems are.

And pre-computer, you can't just redo it?

You cannot redo it, right. I just couldn't do it. He kept yelling at me and yelling

at me, and finally he said to me "And who was responsible for this list"? And I

said "I am". He called a recess and walked in his lobby. He asked the court

officer to send me in. I came in, the Judge said "I'm sorry I yelled at you and if

you run the list this month then you and I will get along as long as you continue to

be honest and take responsibility for the mistakes." We got along, we had no

incidents with him for a whole month. It was the best month the office ever had

with him.

Did that alter that in any way how the office viewed your handling the list?

Oh they were very happy; I couldn't miss a single day. It didn't matter if I were

on my death bed, I had to carry the list because they felt that he would listen to

me if we said we couldn't do it because the witness was missing or some defense

counsel would come up to me and say "Ruth please, I got a child that is going to

be operated on, could you get me a day or two off?" And I could smooth all of

that out. I became much more valuable to the District Attorney's office, and to

the defense bar in many respects because I could say to the Judge "he's got a

problem (and it was always he). He's got a problem this week with his child" and

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we put it on next week or next month. It has nothing to do with the case, it has to

do with his personal life. And at first the Judge said "oh personal life doesn't

count" and I said "yes it does count". I said "he's got to be there with his wife

when that child is operated on, he just cannot be here."

How did the Bar react to you?

Well the Bar was getting much better because they could talk to me and it wasn't

quite like saying to some DA, I have a kid who is sick and I want to go to the

hospital with my wife. Because they (other DA's) would say "well, I have kids

and I'm here". But they felt they could say that to me. So the bar was getting

more and more warm. They were happy that I was running the list and they kept

saying "I hope you run it forever".

Were you now trying cases?

No, you couldn't try because I had to be available to the Judge 24/7, no matter

what happens. If it happened after hours, and we had to get a search warrant, they

had to go through me, so for that whole month I was the only person that

everybody had to talk to in order to keep the list manageable.

Now after that month, what happened?

I went back to drunk driving and cases like people who had too many cats in

possession and playing marbles in a school yard after 5 :00 p.m., stealing hay on

the land of another.

Thi'S is in District Court?

Well, but there was an appeal at that time to the Superior Court and these little

local courts would say "he stole hay on the land of another" and I was trying that.

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One day, it was a warm day in June, Judge Vallely was the Judge. I said "Judge

this is a two witness case." He said "I want to be out of here by 2:00" (it was

about 11 :30). I said "Judge there are two witnesses." There was a ban the bomb

rally and the Cambridge police arrested the sponsors for serving coffee and donuts

without a food license.

Hard to imagine this is a criminal session, isn't it?

I said "I will put one witness on and I think the Defendant will put one witness on.

I said there are all students, they are going to be leaving in June, we've got to get

a trial. He said "one witness"? I said "absolutely". So I put on the Clerk of the

City of Cambridge and she said "there was no license to serve any food. The

clerk went there with the police and the sponsors were serving food". I said

"what were they serving"? She said "coffee and donuts". I said "your witness".

The defense then said to her "do you know that the bomb can do this, can kill

millions of people, do you know how bad it is"? She said "I'm just the clerk".

The defendants then conceded that they served coffee and donuts without a

license. No motion for directed verdict was filed. Then the defense put one of the

defendants on the witness stand. The lawyer asked the question "and why were

you serving the coffee and donuts". He went into at least a half an hour about

why the bomb was bad. He kept going and finally I said "Judge, that is not the

issue". The Judge said agreed and "finish up". So now it was like quarter of one

and the Judge was getting furious because the courtroom wasn't air conditioned; it

was like 110 degrees in there. When the defense finished I said "no questions".

And I saw the Judge writing out not guilty on the verdict slip. The defense

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counsel got up, because in Massachusetts the defense goes first, and went through

all of the evidence. It is getting beyond 1 :00 and then defense counsel said

"Judge you can't find this man guilty because there is a case in West Texas" and

he gave the cite and argued for 45 minutes. He talked for 45 minutes on this case.

Then the Judge looked at me and says "Ill hear from you" and I said "you heard

the facts. You can decide". He was going to get rid of it because these people are

all students, but he found them all guilty. How to lose a case. I've never

forgotten that. Don't overstep your bounds.

Was there a point that you felt you were handling more and more consequential

cases? And how did that happen?

Yes. Experience with the police had to be earned because often the police would

say "she's got the case" and they were very reluctant to tell me all the evidence

they had. But as you got to know them, and I did do all the search warrants,

because you had to do it, they would come to me and say "is this adequate, is this

adequate"? So I got to be friendly with them and then they began to say "she can

really help". And the police I think pushed it more than the other DA's.

When you say they pushed it, you mean pushed your being on cases?

Yes, and then the other DA's (it was a part time job) as they wanted to go back

their offices. I wanted the experience. They would say "do you want to take a

B&E" and I would say "sure, why not". So I got more and more experience that

way and that is how I happen to do rape cases with Judge Sullivan.

And of course you were persisting at all of this at a time when there were really

no other women around?

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Almost everybody was in MA WL, which is the only women's bar association at

that time and they mostly did paperwork. They did a lot of titles, they did a lot of

paper things, mortgages and things. So I was really the only one in most of the

courtrooms.

Did you find support in MA WL as you went to meetings and became involved?

Not particularly. That's why Women's Bar Association was started. They really

didn't feel that women did belong in courtrooms at that time. They have become

a long way.

When and why did you become involved with MA WL?

I just joined because it was a women's group. I joined the Mass. Bar Association

and MA WL. It was there. Interestingly enough, after about two or three years,

Ed Barshak came to me and said would I run for the Boston Bar Association's

Council? I said "Ed, I'm not even a member". They didn't have any other

women.

That would have been in what year?

1964 or 1965; maybe 1966. It was reminiscent of my second administrative

meeting at the SJ C where they were going to appoint people, lawyers to various

different committees. They weren't appointing any women and I said to the Chief

Justice Ed Hennessey, there are no women on the list. He said Pat McGovern.

Senator McGovern is on the list. I said "she can't be on all these committees".

He looked at me and said "we don't know any other women". They knew men

from everywhere. So I said "well let's send back to the bar associations a request

that the list now include women."

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I remember that clearly because I was put in charge of putting together the list at

the Mass. Bar Association.

The bar associations were surprised. Now, they have plenty of applications and

there are women on every committee I think.

So, while you were practicing with the DA's office, other than joining MA WL

were there others? You joined the Mass. Bar Association?

I joined the Mass. Bar Association.

Were you active in any way?

No, I don't think they expected me to be active. It was an unrealistic expectation

for me - I went to the criminal justice meetings. I was a member of that section

and Professor Livingston Hall was there and he was trying to do a proposed

criminal code for Massachusetts and I went there and I would criticize and

critique what they did because I really knew the criminal law from my DA's

experience. When he published it, he gave a special thanks to me for the help. It

never got enacted but it has by slow degrees become enacted. But that is true of

any proposal, it always takes a lot of time. I think the thing that young women

have to know is that it takes a lot of patience to do anything with the law, because

lawyers love tradition and to move them is like moving mountains. You just have

to keep after them. The are much more open now than they used to be, I think

particularly with minority and women and second language people. They are

constantly looking for lawyers who know different languages. So I think in that

respect the bar associations are quite good.

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Going back to when you were in the DA's office, I know you talked the last time

we spoke about the camaraderie and how friendly you were with everyone. Did

you find support within the office for the things you wanted to do, such as try

cases?

Yeah, very slow, very slow. But then when I would try them and they wanted to

go Friday afternoons to the local establishment to drink beer or to go wherever,

they knew they could hand me the file, so it happened more and more. Now I

don't drink, so I didn't go a lot to various places where they went for beer after

work. I think that may have slowed the process even more. But there was no

point in my going if I wasn't going to drink.

I assume it was mostly the guys?

It was all guys because I was the only female so it didn't make much sense for me

to go there.

Was there a point at which any other women joined you in the DA's office?

When I was leaving to go to the AG' s office, John said do you know another

woman? They only knew what they saw. Charlotte Perretta came over.

How did you know Charlotte?

I've known Charlotte, well she was working for Monroe Inker, who was a friend

of mine from Harvard Law. He was an adjunct in trial practice. I was at the law

school - Harvard Law School, not "the" law school.

Thank you, as a Northeastern graduate.

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So I knew Charlotte quite well. She was there about a year and she got sick. She

had pneumonia and this, that and the other thing, so then she took a leave and then

I forget who followed her. I really sort of did start them thinking about women.

So you and Charlotte were not in the office together?

No, she replaced me. She was the designated woman. I keep thinking about the

invisibility of women. Although there were more and more women lawyers, the

Supreme Judicial Court didn't know any women except Sen. McGovern. John

Droney only knew who I recommended. There were not a lot of women

anywhere, in any of the other DA's offices. General question when you went to a

trial, was concerned about how would the jurors react? The big worry was how

would the jurors react to a woman?

Was there an association of DA's at all? Did you go to that?

There was. I did go to that, and I was always the only woman.

This was statewide?

Sometimes just the DAs. Sometimes the staff. They tried to even out the justice

system by having somewhat the same view of some of the crimes and sentences

across the state. That doesn't work everywhere, because in Suffolk and

Middlesex bookies were prosecuted and other areas people thought the bookies

were perfectly fine -- public servants so to speak. It doesn't work in everything

but at least there was some consistency, for example in house breaks. Everybody

was going to recommend incarceration. That at least sort of evened out

sentencing if there was a house break. Usually when there is one house break

there are many by the same defendant. The defendants don't stop at county lines.

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You could be sure that whatever we recommended or whatever the Plymouth or

Essex or Suffolk County recommended, it would be "some time". It might be

less, it might be more, but at least everybody knew that if you had someone who

was breaking into houses, it wasn't going to be which County should you bring

the case. That was a big help.

Now was there a point where, again while you were in the DA's office, that you

started to see women attorneys in Court?

Yes, sort of towards the end of my time there. There were more and more,

particularly in appeals, because of course then you didn't have to worry about

jurors. I think jurors were better than the lawyers; they were really quite good.

Then there were young lawyers, particularly women, taking trial practice at BC,

Harvard, BU, Northeastern. It was being taught everywhere. And the law

schools were admitting more and more women, so you did see more and more.

You saw more and more in the civil motion session, you saw more and more on

the minor crimes, still not the major crimes yet. On drunk driving, which at that

time was not viewed as the same seriousness as it is viewed today. When you

talked to jurors they would say "a person has got to get to work, if we take the

license, they will not get to work".

I remember those days. So were the women you saw coming into the courtroom,

were they in private practice or part of the public defenders? Where were they

appearing first?

They were appearing first from the public defenders. My first experience with the

criminal justice system was in the Voluntary Defenders. I had somebody my

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mother called Mrs. Fagan. Voluntary Defenders of course came from Harvard

mostly. That was a program that you got credit for. So they would come in from

the voluntary defenders and then the public defenders started coming in. I worked

with Tom Dwyer, who had been head of the voluntary defenders for the State, in

trying to get it funded and trying to get people in every court. The first people

who volunteered were women, because the pay was very bad. They were willing

to take less for the experience. So by the time I left the DA's office, maybe 15%

in court were women, maybe a little more or a little less. Now it is 50%, maybe

51 % right now going into court. There is as many women as there are men. Of

course the pay is low but women are not in the law just for the money; most

women, many women. I don't want to make a major statement like that. but a lot

of women like prosecuting, like defending and although the pay is less than what

they could get elsewhere, they get very good trial experience and they get a lot of

contact with people.

And I think it was probably principally one of the places where women did get

that kind of trial experience.

It is the place where women got trial experience; no question about it. That and

the only place where women got civil experience was they used to have a motion

session, rather than a trial judge having to see hundreds of lawyers with sort of

"can I have more than 30 interrogatories? Can I be two days late filing this"?

That session had a lot of women in it.

And you would have seen that session, we are now talking about probably when

you were on the bench?

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No, I saw it when my fathe~ would send me up; when I was in practice. First I

was the only woman and Leo, the clerk who ran it, would always put me on the

bottom of the list.

This was in Suffolk?

In Suffolk, I was always at the bottom of the list.

Did this ever change?

It began to change but they couldn't believe that I had anything serious. The

motions that I had were just as serious as the men had. Can I have more than 30

interrogatories, can I answer them late? Can I do this, I mean, everything was a

motion.

How did you act or how did you feel when you were going into these sessions that

were all men or, getting flack from the clerk or someone else, which I am sure

you did?

It felt terrible but you had to be patient and not say anything. And when I talked

to black women lawyers, they would say, we have to have as much patience as

you plus. And I think that is true.

What do you think gave you that determination to keep going at it?

All I know is that there was nothing else I wanted to do. I couldn't be an FBI

officer, there were no police jobs. I wanted to be in law enforcement at that point

and this was the way.

And no one was going to put you out?

No one was putting me out.

Now you mention seeing women in the Appeals Court?

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Yes, that is where women first started and the first was (now they are called the

Mass. Defenders) and they did take the appeals and argue the appeals. That was

the first place where women got some sort of a strong hold - the public defenders

and the DA's on the appeals.

And of course you did some of that too?

I did a lot of it. Tremendous amount of it; I did all of Middlesex for many years.

And how did you find the reaction of what would have been the Supreme Judicial

Court then? Of the Judges?

Well they were kind of judgy like. They didn't seem to say anything. Every once

in a while they would say "speak louder" but I was not the only lawyer they said

that to. There was a lot of men who couldn't speak loud enough. It was not wired

for sound, so you had to speak at the top of your voice. They did not appear to

have any - all they wanted you to do was stay within your 15 minutes and

highlight the case.

Did you experience any unusual treatment in those years from court personnel,

other than the court officers?

The court officers, the clerks, they all thought that I wasn't going to last. There is

no question they had more respect for the men lawyers than the women.

Charlotte found that, everybody found it.

It was true even when I was there.

Even when you were trying a criminal case, kind of serious; assault by means of a

dangerous weapon or a gun case. The security personnel figured it couldn't be

too bad if I were trying it. So there would be one officer; if somebody else were

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trying it, male, there would be two, because maybe somebody might get angry in

the courtroom. It was extraordinary; as I look back on it, I don't know how I did

it! Except I knew I had to just keep going without losing my temper, without

getting irritated with them; just keep going. I have to say when I went to Harvard

Law School and the professors didn't want us, it was good timing because I knew

nobody wanted us. They were horrible at Harvard.

So you had a good background?

I had a background for being ignored for three years; professors would call on

women one day, most of them, and that was it. Even the court officers and clerks

never had ladies day, so Harvard was one step behind everyone! But Harvard was

like an experience of crashing into someplace where you don't belong.

When you would leave the courtroom or leave anyplace else where you had

experienced that, did you find that you had any emotion that you had to let go of?

Of course, you were always angry. I'd come home and be so angry, I'd yell at the

television. You have to let.it out; you couldn't yell at the people you are friendly

with. I just sat there and kept reading the mysteries and say "well see, this one

got mistreated and that one". And there were a lot of authors; Agatha Christie had

already written about police and Miss Marple.

So you identified with her?

I did indeed. I found the police became more confident in women after me and it

took the lawyers took longer. The police would say "go see Ruth for a warrant".

It took the lawyers longer to accept you than the police even? It doesn't speak

well for the bar, I suppose.

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Well, they are better, much better now. They are very well integrated and

working on all sorts of things.

How did you find witnesses reacted to you when you were prosecuting a case?

When I first went to the Superior Court in Salem as a judge, I had two

experiences. The first one was a male juror who was telling the other jurors that I

was a law student and this wasn't real and it was a practice session.

How did you find that out?

The court officer came and told me. So I brought them all out because I didn't

want to point him out and said "I heard a rumor that some people thought this was

a practice session. I am a Superior Court Judge, this is not a practice session, this

is real."

An all male jury?

Yes, this is real. After they all left, I said to the court officer, bring the one juror

up when it won't be noticed; maybe at lunch time. And I said to him "do you

want to serve as a juror" and he said "yes but not with a woman judge". So I said

"Well I am going to excuse you for this session and put your name back in the

jury pool because it is not fair to the other jurors that you don't want to serve".

That was the end of that.

When I was there [in Salem], I went to the Salem Five Cent Savings Bank

to take out $100 from my checking account; I had a license, had a check. They

said "where do you live" and I said "Cambridge". They said "we don't know you

so we can't cash the check." I came back from lunch and I was sitting there

thinking about it, when the manager from Salem Five came in. We have a Soldier

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in Sailors Relief Act that has to be signed off on by the Judge, so that people will

know that. He said "Judge will you sign this"? I said "I was just in your bank an

hour ago and they said my signature wasn't good enough to cash a check". He

said "oh, they didn't mean it". I said "yeah, they did mean it". So he said "I can

get it cashed for you". I said "no, I can cash it at a bank that respects women",

but I signed the bank's paper. It permeated all of society. I know a male judge

with a license and a check in a bank wouldn't have had the same problem. I know

that.

Any male, not just the judge.

Any male might come from Salem, see I didn't come from Salem so I'm like from

another country. If they don't know you, they don't want to do anything. It was a

nice experience for it to happen on the very same day.

Perfect; poetic justice. Before we leave the DA's office, are there other things

that happened there or is there something you want to talk about?

Well, even the DA's took a long time, not the assistants, the DA's themselves

took a long time. They would say that "you are an exception but we don't want

women on the staff; it is disruptive and we have to worry about whether they are

going to start trying to lure another assistant DA to leave their wife and kids." I

don't know where they got the idea. They didn't want to start what they called

"social interaction." They were conc·erned about that.

Were they concerned that you would then leave to get married?

That women would leave was a constant concern to the law firms, the DA' s,

public defenders. What if we trained you and then you leave? In Harvard Law

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school they would say "you are taking the place of a male and that male will

practice law and you won't." Turns out most males went into business and the

women did practice, which shows you how little foresight they had.

Anything else in general about your experience in the DA's office?

You need a lot of patience because the skepticism about women in jobs that men

traditionally held runs very deep in our society. It is a man's job, not a woman's.

I have a friend who is an architect who had a similar experience; they were afraid

to put her name on drawings that she did. Women doctors did not get internships.

I went to Harvard and Harvard Law School and at four years at the college, there

was not one woman professor, not one woman tutor in any class that I had. I

don't think any of my friends had any women teachers, no women running

smaller classes, no women running the different clubs, and I didn't have enough

consciousness to really notice it. It was the reason why I said I would teach at a

junior college. Basically, that is where women could teach, they couldn't teach at

universities. It is interesting that my experience would have fortified that belief.

There were no women administrators at Harvard; there were two deans at

Radcliffe and they were somewhat supportive of women going to graduate school.

They did everything. We had 300 in a class and Harvard had 1,800 to 2,000.

Women didn't go to faculty meetings, didn't go anywhere and nobody thought

anything about it. Nobody was conscious to think that that was wrong. There

were people who were doing it and thinking it was wrong, but I didn't know it.

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Did you feel that when you were in the DA's office, did you really feel that you

were going at it completely alone or were there other people who were supportive

of your persistence?

I'll tell you who was supportive. I could have anything typed because all of the

secretaries would do anything. I had a lot of staff support that the men didn't

have because they would just say "get this typed". The support came first from

other women. The men didn't see the invisibility of women. I did see the

invisibility of women. When in courtrooms, it went all the way up to the SJC.

There was a consultation table where we talked and the chief would sit in the

middle and then it would go right hand most senior, left hand less senior, all the

way down to the corner. Often the arguments they had were when you talked

about the arguments you just heard. Judge Hennessey, who had a daughter and

was very supportive, could go right by you and say "I don't see you". It was kind

of the invisibility of women. The funny side was the chairs were very big and tall

and I was short. When I was arguing I would ask a question and one lawyer said

"it was really scary to have a question from an empty chair". Finally, he said get

some sort of build up on the chair so that lawyers could see me, they wanted to

see the expression of the judge's face. The bar was objecting, not me. Of course,

I didn't know I couldn't be seen.

Let's go back and talk about when you were in the AG' s office. How did you

find that in relation to the DA's office?

Let me tell you I was Chief of the Appeals in the criminal division. Everybody in

that division was paid more than I was. Absolutely everybody. So I went to see

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the Attorney General Bob Quinn. And I said, "that doesn't seem right" and he

said "Well you aren't supporting a family". And I said to him "how do you know

I'm not supporting somebody"? and he said "well, are you"? I said "that's

irrelevant, you made an assumption that isn't fair." To his credit he corrected

it ... not totally but at least I wasn't the least paid. In the DA's office, at that time,

the funding went this way - "x amount for the DA; y amount for the First

Assistant and z amount for all other assistants. So there was no way I didn't get

paid the same. So my first experience of pay discrimination really came when I

was the Chief and everybody was paid more than I was. To his credit, Quinn did

bump it up but it was strange to find that out.

How did you find that out?

I don't remember exactly but I learned that I was doing a lot of the work. John

Irwin told me you should do something about that. All the people who would not

support women were somewhat supportive in a very strange way. When we get

to the Superior Court I'll tell you about Walter McLaughlin and the Union Club.

I'll do it now so we don't forget. The judges used to have lunch at the Union

Club. There were two women on the Superior Court - Eileen Griffin and I. One

day there was a luncheon, and as we walked in, the doormen said to Eileen and to

me "you have to go in the side door." And Chief Justice McLaughlin, who was as

far from supporting women as one could get, looked at him and said "my judges

don't walk in side doors." He said "go back to where you are supposed to go

back to, because we are walking in this door." I don't think he realized what he

was doing but he certainly wasn't going to take side doors. And Nan Koehane

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who was then president of Wellesley told me she was on the State Street Bank

Board and they had a dinner at the Algonquin Club. They wanted her to go in the

side door and she didn't know what to do, so she asked the President of the State

Street Bank and he said "you can come in as my wife."

What an honor!

The Union Club did not have women at that time and I was the first woman at the

SJC not to be asked to be a member. Judge Cutter said "you can go in as a friend

of mine and when they see you are okay, they will let you in as a member." I said

"no way." The downside of this is that the lunches at the Union Club stopped. In

Worcester Edith Fine was judge then in the District Court. She called me up and

said "the judges are going to the Worcester Club and that Club doesn't let women

in, so we should not go." And we did not go. It happened in Suffolk too. The

judges then stopped having lunch together (Superior Court). That is the downside

of it that the clubs were mostly men only.

Do you think the lunches just stopped because they couldn't have them in those

places or the nature of the lunches changed once women were there?

Well for example, at the Worcester Club, they went on Friday afternoons, which

had chowder and something else, and everyone ordered the same thing. The

nature of judge's lunches was to talk about the cases they heard, so it couldn't

have been how they talked. The lawyers talk about their cases and judges talk

about their cases. Judges would say "I ruled this way on that motion but should I

think about it, should I revise it"? Once in awhile every judge had a problem that

they wanted to talk to the other judges about. It couldn't have been the

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conversation because that's what they talk about; lawyers talk about how their

cases, judges talk about how they ruled and what their cases were like, so it

wasn't the conversation that they had. It was the Clubs. Edith and I particularly

were sort of instrumental in ending, because when we wouldn't go they didn't go.

So that kind of ended it. Now in Suffolk it ended because there really was no

lunch place at that time. There was one across the way, but that went out of

business and the one that is now there, the Judges do come down a lot together.

One place was in the basement. What is the building right next to the Court, the

red building, I think it is One Beacon and they had a cafeteria in the basement, so

you would see a lot of Judges there having lunch.

But not all together?

Well, 3 or 4 together. Maybe some from Suffolk, or ones on a committee. Part of

it was the place, but part of it was the Club just couldn't accept the fact that they

were out of step.

Were there any other Clubs or issues that came up about that time that you were

involved in?

Well, Harvard Law School has the first year clubs for moot court. Everybody

gets asked to a club, but there are some clubs that had their own places and were

fancier than other clubs. And women didn't get in there for a number of years.

Were there any women in those clubs when you were there?

No.

And you had asked to be in a club?

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Everybody was in a club because that is how they used to run moot court. But the

law firms would not interview for jobs on campus for women or blacks or any

sort of different person. And Harvard let that go on for a long time. Very strange.

You did not interview with any firms, you went in with your dad?

I interviewed only for legal aid and they offered me a position. But it was better

for me to be with my father because I could do more and my brother was going to

come the next year so it would be a family firm. It was better because some of

my father's people would give me motions to argue and I would just say $25, $15,

but it was fun because I had 7 or 8 motions and when I was doing it, other lawyers

would say "hey would you do one for me"? So it was kind of fun. At that time,

women's consciousness was being raised, so I would get a lot of calls from people

who didn't know me that saw that I was a lawyer in the yellow pages and said "I

want to take back my maiden name, can you do that for me"? And that was just

out of the blue and I charged the munificent sum of $25.00. I filled out the form

and I would say "you know you could do this yourself'.

You became a rainmaker?

Yes.

Did you stay working part time at your dad's firm throughout the years?

Throughout the DA's office, but I didn't do that much because I was trying cases,

doing briefs, warrants. Let me tell you when the police want help, they can find

you. They could find you at the library, at home, no matter where I was. If they

wanted something.

Ladies room?

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They did send woman police officers. So a lot of times they would say we are

going to interview this witness and we don't trust her so sit in the room. That was

kind of interesting. The police have a good sense of humor. Right after the

Escobedo case came down, they came and said "we are going to go in with the

dog and look for drugs." And I said "okay and what's the dog's name? The

police said "Escobedo". They had a good sense of humor. But I did put it in the

warrant that they had seen people come out of there with drugs and seen people

go in who they knew were suppliers and they were going in with the warrant and

a dog. There was no mistake and no saying that we didn't say we were going in.

You were thorough?

Well the police didn't want to put in about the dog and I said oh no, then they will

say some sort of vicious animal without permission. I'm going to put it all in.

So, let's go to your time in the AG's office. I know we talked a bit about that the

last time. How did that change things for you?

It was a very different experience. You weren't in court everyday. That was

number one. It didn't matter that you weren't. It was federal court if there was a

habeas corpus. Ed Brooks, who had been the Attorney General, also sent them

down to the DA's office. He didn't want to have his people doing it. So, I was

sort of used to it. The judges were pretty good.

The judges in federal court?

Yes, most of the judges were okay. You were there on a very specific mission. It

was interesting. Joe Balliro had a case with us. A young man killed his

girlfriend; he put her body in a well. The young man was convicted and his

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decision was upheld by the Supreme Judicial Court. He claimed that Joe Balliro

was ineffective.

Did you work on that?

I worked on that and I remember the young man testifying, saying that Joe Balliro

didn't do anything. Balliro said "I know I did something because for the first time

in my life when I asked for the grand jury minutes, Abrams gave it to me, when I

asked for the police report, Abrams gave it to me, I had every single piece of

paper. I have never had that happen to me." Then he put me on the stand. I said,

"when you have a habe, the only way to have it denied is to say what happened

and I gave him every single piece of paper that we had in our file."

So Joe was not ineffective?

He was always friendly to me after that. But I didn't see any reason why they

should have asked, particularly when it was a habe and the judge was going to order it

anyway. What was the point? The other DA's thought it was sad to open up the record.

Nothing evil ever happened because we opened up our records.

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Now when you were in the AG's office, were there any other women attorneys

there at that time?

Yes, Annette Benedetto was there. There was another woman, who just became a

reporter for one of the T.V. stations. Sharon King. She was not a lawyer but she

was in the AG's office. The consumer protection division had women; the

criminal division did not.

Did you find support from any of those other women, or were you still really on

your own?

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In the criminal division, I am on my own; I'm not at the State House. I'm at 100

Boylston Street. I didn't see other women that often. We were not at the same

place. I had a wonderful experience with one of the police when going up to the

State House. A man, homeless or crazy, was harassing me. So, I went to the

police directing the traffic and said that man is accosting and annoying me within

the meaning of Chapter 272 Section 263. He looked me straight in the eye and

said "that is his constitutional right". So I said to the police officer, "I am not in

the constitution." The officer said I'll get someone to walk with you up to the

State House. I had to walk up there, so I didn't go up there that much and we

were busy enough going to the state courts and the federal court, so I went to the

State House. If Irwin couldn't make a meeting, I went. But basically we were

sort of an independent unit. The people at the State House were the people that

people would come to see, the business people, the false advertising people, all of

those went to the State House.

Now it is obvious that when you talk about the DA's office that that was a very

professionally satisfying job despite its challenges.

I loved it.. .it was so much fun; it was like going to a Grade B movie every day.

The police would call to ask a question and I would say "what have you got? I'm

outside the defendant's house". What we want to know if we have probable

cause? It was wonderful. It is not that much fun now. It has all been regulated

and predictable. When I was there, nothing was predictable because remember

the laws were changing. Mapp v. Ohio came down; other search warrant cases

came down; Escobedo came down, Miranda came down; so it was in the middle

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of a criminal law revolution. Everybody had to adjust. But since I kept up on

everything; everybody was calling me saying "can you do this, what about that"?

I was on my way to a wedding when Miranda came down. I'm reading the NY

Times at the airport and the State police was standing there "get us a waiver form;

get us a waiver form". And I'm writing it out from the NY Times because I

didn't even see the opinion. I came home and I called them and said you have to

add one more thing. I've got the 4, but I think there is a 5th that I added in. "Oh,

can we come over and have you write it in so we will have it right on the form."

Did you find even in those early years that you were the one reading the opinions

and knowing what was there and the guys were depending on you?

Absolutely. Cases would come down and I would say "look at this one or look at

that one". But basically I was the one who filled in all of them for the police and

the DA's. Indeed, I wrote little memos which John Droney sent the other DA's

saying "this came down, be careful of that."

Did you draft some of those?

I did. I drafted the Miranda form; I think the same one is still being used. I said

to use witnesses, I put that in. I was careful. The search warrants, every other

year they did a different thing on search warrants, so I had to send a memo around

to the police departments. I was at the police academy and it was kind of

interesting because they would ask different questions and they would present

very different problems. For example, go to Martha's Vineyard and they would

say "what if there is nobody in the house, or if there is a break-in, do we need a

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warrant to go investigate?" They had very different problems from Boston

anyway. Worcester, Springfield, those cities had many more problem's.

Did you become involved with those issues too, state wide?

Yes, I would write the memos and sometimes the police would call. Police have a

very good network and somebody would call and ask about some questions.

Did you find that that was a role, your being the researcher, the detail person, that

followed you through life?

Yes, absolutely.

Talk a little bit about that.

My public career, I liked. I loved the DA's office. The AG's office, I liked it but

it wasn't as much fun. I didn't have very much contact with police or victims or

anybody else. Not as much fun. The Superior Court you had some contact with

court officers, other judges, but the SJC was really very different. Almost like

being a solo practitioner with some partners.

No one to call?

Nobody to call, except your law clerks.

So, did the role of being the researcher and the knowledgeable one follow you

into the AG's office?

That is correct, I was still the one. And then when I became the staff counsel for

the SJC, I would pick out the cases that the law clerks would read; I would

assume the judges all read them; now maybe they did or maybe they didn't. But I

would send a little memo along, not detailed about what the case contained, but

that everybody should read whatever might apply to an SJC opinion.

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I may not be remembering, but tell me when you became staff counsel to the SJC?

The year before I became a Superior Court Judge.

So you were in the AG's office for how long?

1968 to 1971. Then I was staff counsel for the SJC.

How did that change come about?

Judge Hennessey called me up and said "the legislature is giving us this position."

Which didn't exist before?

It never existed and they said "we have decided that we would like you to have

it." I thought it sounded liked fun and said "what do you do?" You read the

briefs, you write a little memo as to what the issues are. Sometimes you can say

there are no issues in there. Now they have something that says there are no

issues. The lawyers are doing it because the client wants it. It happens in

criminal cases. Sometimes in domestic cases because they also are very

contentious. You could put them all on a list.

Are you the one who started that list?

I am the one who started the second list. I called it the "dumb one." It was a no

issue list. The form that they use now to do the summaries of the cases on the list

is the same list that I worked out. The judges helped out by saying "it would help

us out if you did this, if you did that." That is the form they now use.

Did you enjoy that position?

It was okay, not great but not bad. It was easier than I ever thought. I had 30

cases (no appeals court yet), maybe 34, 35, 40 cases· a month. But that was the

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only thing I had to do; some of them were not hard at all, some of them were

harder. The ones I found hard were the ones I knew nothing about.

Were you the one doing research on those?

No, I had briefs and all I would do was write a summary.

But I assume sometimes you would not take the briefs at their word, you would

check them out and read the law?

Right, but I would write a 2-3 page summary and I would put in

"defendant says "x" on page 30 of the brief; the Commonwealth

says "y" on page 31 and neither side has the transcript record."

You know you can do that.

Did the judges have law clerks too?

Yes they did; they had one apiece, because the Appeals Court wasn't established.

Were you working with the law clerks too?

Not really, they could ask questions. But it was sort of the

easiest job that I had in the sense that you look at the

summary of the argument, if you wanted to check, you could

get the transcript from the Clerk's office to check. They didn't have an office the

first year I worked in the Clerk's office.

So if all the Clerk's went out and some lawyer came in, I took care of him too.

Was the SJC a collegial place to be then? Were you

interacting with the judges and did they interact with each other

reqularly?

I can't say they interacted regularly because I didn't know. I

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certainly interacted with Chief Justice Tauro, who used me as a

surrogate law clerk. I don't know why but he did and I

interacted with Judge Hennessey and with Judge Kirk. I

can't remember who else was on at that time. Judge Spiegel

was retired.

You told me that before, in all the positions you were in you had

never thought about being a judge. Did that position cause you at all to think

about being a judge? You are shaking your head definitely no.

No, when they offered me the job, before there was a decision, I said to my

brother "it is a lifetime job and I don't want to do it."

When did that happen?

They offered it to me when someone was retiring. One week

later, Governor Sargeant called me and somebody was going to appoint me. At

that point, they didn't have applications to be a judge. What they had was they

would ask different bar associations and lawyers, and I knew Bill Young. He was

Governor Sargeant' s legal counsel.

How did you know him?

We worked on a case together in the AG's office, called

Household Finance and Beneficial Finance. I couldn't do the case alone. I knew

that. I did sort of the basic draft, but I couldn't finish it alone. The opinion was

100 pages. The briefs were about 1000 pages and I said "I can't do it alone and I

can't take my associates off." I had worked with Jack Curtin.

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So in those days in truth, being named to the bench was somewhat a feat of

politics.

My father's old saying, that a judge is a friend of a governor.

Exactly, it was a tribute to your having gotten yourself into an important network

of people.

I knew a lot of lawyers at that point, and they didn't have any hesitation to call

me. Not while I was up at the SJC but when I was in the AG's office, both the

defense and the prosecution; nobody had any problems. Because if I knew, I was

perfectly happy to tell them whatever I knew. Criminal law should be

transparent; business law is an exception.

Is it that an attitude to which you attribute your ability to get into that network?

I think the factthat I didn't get mad; I didn't get upset; the original women

lawyers were complaining all the time about this or that. I was not a complainer

about how I was treated. I would go home and be upset but I didn't complain.

And I still think that is the way to go.

But it also seems like in some respects you managed to be one of the guys?

Yes and no.

What is the yes part and what is the no part?

The yes part is that they had no hesitation in talking to me and asking me. The no

part is they were still a men's club; they would go out to lunch; I could have been

working with them all morning and they would never think I should go with them.

Now, that's fine with me. But it is very strange to be a part of a group and not a

part of a group.

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How did you feel about that during the time, let's say you were working on a case

and helping everyone and yet you weren't asked to lunch?

You feel upset, there's no question it hurts and there's no question that you feel it.

My rule of life was "don't complain" and I sort of fault the women's movement a

little bit, that they complain more than they should. I don't mean that negatively,

they certainly should complain, but they can't say everytime a woman doesn't get

something that it is discrimination. I don't always like people's response. On the

judicial by-pass for abortions, there were a lot of complaints that some judges just

wouldn't do it because they didn't believe in it. I thought the complaints were

wrong. I thought people who didn't believe in abortions shouldn't have to do it.

We had capital punishment and people who didn't believe in it didn't work on it.

This was when I was in the DA's office. I don't think you should force people to

do something they didn't believe in. There were a number of judges on the

Superior Court, mostly men who felt that abortion was murder. And I'd say

forget it. Jamie Sabino went and found out where the women were sitting and she

would bring the bypass requests to the women judges, rather than complain. The

women judges mostly didn't say no. So it was kind of an interesting thing that the

Women's Bar worked out. They went to the Superior Court Chief and said we

need somebody in every county who will do judicial bypass. To the extent

possible, the Chiefs of the Superior Court try and assign judges so that there was

always somebody available. I thought that was better than just complaining.

Irwin couldn't do it. Just couldn't do it. Felt that it was a weight on him. He

believed in capital punishment, so I thought it was a little bit crazy.

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Let's go to that period of time when you got the call that you were going to be

appointed to the bench. Let's talk a little bit about the time leading up to that,

surely you knew that people were sending your name on?

I didn't really. Bill Young said "I'm probably going to suggest you." He didn't

say he definitely was going to do it.

And how did you feel about that, when someone said they were going to suggest

you, did you think that would be exciting?

I was thinking about it and I thought it was certainly going to be better than being

in the reporter's office.

Looking at the next career step.

Looking at the next career step, it was certainly going to be better. Now I was not

unhappy at the SJC but it was isolating. There was no doubt about it. Even then.

And even in the job I held, so it is still isolating. Margot Botsford found out after

all her 20 years as a Superior Court Judge. And Judy Cowin.

So when you were thinking about would that be interesting or not, were you

concerned about it being isolating? To be on the Superior Court?

I didn't think the Superior Court was isolating. The Superior Court, you are right

there with the lawyers, the jurors, the witnesses, the cops.

So you didn't have a reason to think "that is something I don't want to do"?

No. I was sort of worried about whether I could do it. I kept saying "what do I

know about the Land Court, what do I know about the Probate Court"? I knew

nothing. I went as a lawyer in Worcester to the Probate Court a couple of times,

Larry Fisher and I were sitting there and one of the cases, the police went in from

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a call and they searched the place without a warrant. So I moved to suppress in

the Probate Court. That was the same case the Judge made.

That's a bit of novelty in the Probate Court.

He looked at me and said what are you talking about? I said the police didn't

have a warrant to go in there. The Judge said, "I don't care."

So when you knew that your name was being sent on, maybe, to be a Judge, you

didn't know what Court it would be, is that right?

I thought it was the District Court.

And how did you feel about that?

Oh I loved that. I thought that would be a lot of fun. I would

love to have been in the Cambridge District Court or the Boston Municipal Court.

And you never got to do that?

I never got to do that. But it is a lot of fun, because the cases

are fresh, the murder happened last night, the police are in

today, and everything was very exciting. Every once in a while I

watch Judge Judy and know I would not be a good District Court

Judge.

So, you then get the call from Sargent himself?

Yes, at the Court.

At the Court when you were at the SJC?

Yes, I was doing the summaries.

So, tell me about that.

The conversation was "could you be here tomorrow at 2:00? I'd

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like to speak to you." And I thought, "oh God what have I done?"

But you must have had a clue it had to do with a Judgeship?

Well except that we were doing all the extraditions, I had no

idea. We did them all, the AG's office did them all; purple

ribbons and all that stuff. And then I thought, maybe it is the District Court.

How did you feel that night before you went?

I was so nervous; I didn't know what he wanted; he didn't say what he wanted.

Did you talk to people about it?

No, I talked to my mother.

What did your mother say?

What does he want to talk to you about? So, that was good. So I went up there

and I thought it was the District Court and he said Superior Court and I said

"wow".

So did he just tell you or was this like an interview?

He asked me a couple of questions. I said I was against the death penalty and he

said "so am I." So I was surprised. He said "I'm going to send your name in next

Wednesday."

Did he ask you any other questions besides that?

No, he said "do you like being a lawyer?" I said yes, and he said, "well I did", he

didn't call it a background check, he said what a background check would be. I

talked to Bob Quinn and he said "you got good recommendations and I'm sending

your name in next Wednesday to Superior Court."

What was your response?

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"Thank you!" My brother was away; my mother was helping someone with their

wedding. Nobody was home. So I went to see Chief Justice Tauro and I said I

just saw the Governor and he is going to send my name to the Superior Court next

week. And he said "that's great, I' 11 call him".

A different day huh? Were you elated? Were you scared?

I was panicked, I kept saying "what am I going to do, what am I going to do?" Of

course, Walter McLaughlin was not happy.

A woman!

A woman.

Now did you know that?

No, but I found out.

Not until you got there?

I got there and he said "very good, but I think you should be in Boston for three

months because nobody else is used to having women."

Now was Eileen Griffin already there?

She was at the District Court.

Ah, so you were the first on the Superior?

Second, Judge Barron was first. Eileen was still at the District Court.

So this was what month?

September, well I'm not sure. I can check it.

Well, what was the rest of the process? The Judge sent your name on.

They sent my name to the Judicial Council. Judge Tauro called his rep and Quinn

called his rep and I went to see mine. And he said he would support me.

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This was the Governor's Council?

This was the Governor's Council.

There was none of this JNC, or joint bar or anything.

Nothing. The joint bar had told the Governor, the Mass Bar and Boston Bar had

both okayed it according to the Governor, so there was nothing else. So I went to

my Governor's Councilor, I can't remember his name, nice guy. He said "I'll be

happy because John Droney is a friend of mine and I wish he would put you on

the District Court." He said "because you know what to do with an overdue

library book." They didn't ask very many questions.

Did you take any supporters with you to your interview?

My brother.

And was your father still alive?

No.

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ORAL HISTORY OF JUDGE RUTH ABRAMS

FOURTH INTERVIEW

June 11, 2010

This is the fourth interview of the oral history of Ruth Abrams which is being taken on behalf of

Women Trailblazers in the Law, a Project of the American Bar Association Senior Lawyers

Division. It is being conducted by Elaine M. Epstein on June 11, 2010.

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As I think I said earlier, in the motion session, lawyers used to go for their

motions like whether they could file more interrogatories, get a continuance, all

the little motions that go prior to trial. And I was there for my father and lawyers

would say to me, "will you take my motion next week and will you take mine?"

They knew I was going to be there, although I was on the bottom of the list most

of the time. And so I was building a little practice between everybody's motions

and one week I was the whole motion list and I made 200 dollars. I was so happy.

It was an enormous sum at that time.

This would have been in what years?

1958. Now you have to understand that when I went to the DA's office in 1961,

the yearly salary was 3,000 dollars a year. So 200 dollars for a week - it was like

an unbelievable sum of money.

And, you said you were always at the bottom of the list?

Whether my father's motions were there or not, I always got called on last.

Because you were a woman?

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Yes. Because even when my brother (who was a year behind me) came, they'd

call on him first. So all the lawyers knew that I'd be there through the whole

session.

But that also says that the lawyers then had some confidence in you even though

you were a woman. Isn't that right?

These were unimportant motions, they really were.

Worthy of being entrusted to a woman?

Right. You know, can I have another day to answer something? Can I postpone

this for 2 days or 3 days?

It's another era in practice.

Yes, these would be nowhere now. But it's just interesting that you would build a

practice then by doing other lawyers' sort of work they didn't want to do.

Are there other things from your years of practice that you thought of that you

wanted to add?

That just happened to come to me because I was watching a television show

where the young woman lawyer, everybody was giving her everything to do and I

thought, ah, that's like the motion session.

When you were in practice did you ever find that people other than your father or

your brother were asking you to take on work or draft things?

Yes. But never anything really complicated, but stuff that lawyers don't like to do.

Such as?

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Prepare what questions that should be asked at a deposition. That came a little

later. And whether there were any citations for such and such a theory. They

didn't ask me for the theory. They asked me for the citation.

Not the heavy thinking?

Not the thinking.

Little did they know where you'd end up.

Would you find me something to support this? But it was sort of a fun thing to do,

because I knew a whole lot of civil lawyers.

I was just going to say, you really had a lot of connections throughout the legal

community before you went on the bench.

Mostly so. Mostly so. But I did know a lot of civil lawyers. Sometimes they'd

say "I want you to come and just sit there so they don't say anything while I'm

out of the room. I have to go some place in the middle of a questioning or

something and I want to make sure" ....

You mean a deposition or something like that?

Well the deposition came in 1961.

So you'd be sitting there for what?

Attorneys are trying to talk or settle a case and the lawyer would say "I've got to

go take a phone call and I want you to be in the room." It is not a friendly

profession at any time.

And would you get paid for that?

Yes. But like IO dollars, 15 dollars.

Still a decent sum.

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My father used to call me the 5 and 10 of the legal profession.

That's great.

In case they don't know what a 5 and 10 is.

Right, That's another era.

Let's move forward to talk ~bout your appointment to and then your years on the

Supreme Judicial Court. So do you want to talk about your appointment first or

where would you like to start?

Let me start with when I was working for the Supreme Judicial Court as special

counsel, a job created by the legislature for the court.

And you were the first person in that job which we talked about before?

We did talk about it. So that's where I was when the job of Reporter of Decisions

came up. Judge Cutter asked me to take it and I said I thought not. I really did not

think I was good enough in grammar for it. It was very isolating and it still is.

Would that job have interested you, though? Leaving the grammar aside? You

were being polite?

I just said I didn't think I had enough background in grammar. And Judge Cutter

was pretty good about it, although he said that leaves us with nobody to fill the

position. I said I won't take it. But I looked for a woman and they looked for

someone from the appellate bar. So that was the difference. Then I got a call from

Bill Young, counsel to Governor Sargent. I can't remember his first name.

Frank.

Yes. And he asked me to come up and see him. Bill asked me to come up. I knew

Bill.

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Bill asked you to go see Sargent?

Well, he asked me to stop at Bill's office. He went in with me. And the Governor

said he would like to appoint me to the Superior Court.

This is for Superior or Supreme Judicial?

Yes, Michael Dukakis appointed me to the Supreme Judicial Court.

To the SJC, right.

And so that's how I got on the Superior Court. I knew Bill Young, from the

Attorney General's office. And I was on the Superior Court. I knew Michael

Dukakis, not very well, but I sort of knew him. I was not politically active at that

time.

This is in the years you were on the Superior Court, or even before?

This was when I was at the Superior Court. I was not particularly politically

active. And Michael Dukakis called.

Just called you personally one day?

No. Called through his lawyer. They all called through their lawyers.

Through his attorney.

And he said he'd like to speak to me. This was after he had bypassed me for

Judge Liacos' position. And, so he said I'd like to see you in 20 minutes. I was

not dressed for that, and I was a little nervous. But I went up there.

And who was his legal counsel?

Daniel Taylor. And he said "there is another vacancy in the SJC and I'm going to

nominate you tomorrow." And oh my God. I said to my mother, "that's the

quickest thing that ever happened in the law."

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Let's go back to talk about Judge Liacos' seat. You had been considered once

before right? Tell me about that.

I was under consideration. He was under consideration. Paul Brountas called me

and said the Greek community really wants Paul Liacos, so there's going to be a

lot of pressure on Governor Dukakis. And I just want you to know it has nothing

to do with you. What was I going to say?

Was that a surprise when you were first suggested even for the Liacos seat?

It was a surprise, all right. But Paul Brountas was very good about that, in the

sense that he did call and tell me that the Greek community was united on Liacos.

He said, but we'll be united for you the next time.

Was being on the SJC, in these months that this was going on, something that you

really aspired to?

Well I was not seriously thinking about it, because it's more lonely than most law

jobs. More lonely than the DA's office, more lonely than the AG's office, more

lonely than the Superior Court.

And of course you could see what that was like because you had worked there?

Yes. So, you know, nobody calls, you don't make an arrangement to have lunch

with somebody. And of course lawyers didn't want to have lunch with you

because they're afraid they'd look like they were currying a favor or this that or

the other thing. Very lonely job. So I was thinking about it, but-

You didn't have your heart set on it?

No I didn't have my heart set on it. I knew I had my heart set on doing that job for

a while and then maybe doing something that was a little more active, because it

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was really lonely going 5 days a week with maybe 3 phone calls or 4 and that's it.

And the law clerks would come in and talk to me. The Judges' law clerks, not

mme.

I have to go back for a minute because I'm lost in sequence. You were working

for the Supreme Judicial Court, and did you go from there to the Superior Court?

Yes.

Or directly to the SJC?

Let me think because now you've asked me - I went to the Superior Court.

I think you went to the Superior Court first.

I did go to the Superior Court first.

I'm starting to know your life better than you.

That's right I did go, because I went in to see Chief Justice Tauro after Sargeant

called. And I said- I told him what happened. I told Judge Cutter that I wasn't

going to be the Reporter of Decisions. And Chief Justice Tauro always generally

said "I didn't know the governor had that good sense."

That's great. So you then went on the Superior Court and then from there is that

when you got this call from Dan Taylor saying I'd like to see you?

Yes.

And is this the one that was right away?

No.

OK, Let's go through that scene.

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The first time was when I was on the Superior Court I forget how many years - 4

plus years, And then there was a vacancy, Judge Reardon I think. No, I can't

remember which one retired, but Judge Reardon was one of them.

And that's the one that was filled by Liacos?

No. No, I think that was filled by me. I can't remember which.

Ok.

There were 2 judges. One - I chose Judge Reardon's. I forget who filled that.

Judge Liacos filled Judge Spiegel's seat I think ..

Liacos was appointed first?

Correct.

And there was about how much time before you were appointed?

About 3 months.

So you're still on the Superior Court?

I'm still on the Superior Court. Not really thinking about the SJC. It's really very

isolated.

And of course you were used to the Superior Court as well.

Yes, and there you have court officers, and lawyers with emergencies, and jurors,

and witnesses, and witnesses that can't get there and stenographers with

problems. I mean it's very busy. Even in the least busy session, it's busy.

More your style.

More my style. More like the DA's office. Everybody's running around trying to

get this done or that done. It's a little more organized now.

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So what went through your mind when you were first considered even for the

position that Liacos took, about what it would like to be the first woman?

I think you would think that way. But the question I had was how lonely is it

going to be.

So that was your main concern, right?

It was my main concern, because I was not married. You're alone all day and all

night, you can go crazy after a while. And that's what I kept thinking about.

So how did you think you would deal with that?

Well all I thought- At that time the Superior Court didn't have their own law

clerks, so I thought well I' 11 have the law clerks. And then I thought I had a lot of

cousins that live around here, and I thought, well I could beef up my relationships

with them and basically go outside the court for friendship.

So you started strategizing about what you would have to do to have a social life?

Well I thought about it, because I didn't want to be in a place where I was alone

every single day, every single night and every single weekend. It's very hard for

anybody to do that at any job. And SJC is collegial, but not fuzzy.

Not warm and fuzzy. So when you got the call from Dan Taylor, you by this

point knew what it was about?

I wasn't sure, because I didn't know Dan Taylor. I had known Bill Young, but I

didn't know Dan Taylor.

And he didn't tell you what it was about?

No.

You must have had an inkling.

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Yes, I mean you don't really know ifthere are lots of things that you could be

doing. I mean commissions, the million other- the court system's just one part of

the legal system, it's only one part.

So there you were. So you go up to see Dan Taylor and he said to you?

And he says, I want to know, do you have any criminal convictions or things like

that? I said are you kidding me? He said, no we've got to know. Then I said no, I

have no criminal convictions.

You were appointed once.

So he said the governor would like to meet you, and I said OK. He said 4:00. So I

went back.

The same day?

The same day.

And where were you sitting? Were you sitting in Suffolk, or?

Sitting in Suffolk. So I went back. Around a quarter of 4 I said I have to go. I

didn't like to close before 4, because it's not really right, but I did it. And, I went

up to the State House, and Governor Sargent was one of the most friendly people

you could ever want to meet in your life.

But now are we on Sargent or are we on Dukakis?

No, Dukakis.

Let's stick to that one for a few minutes. I know, you have 2 experiences that are

so similar.

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Right. And Dukakis is there and he says. I'm sending your name in tomorrow to

the Governor's Council. He said you've got to get a hold of your Councilor. I

said, who is it?

But the Council was going to meet right then? He was just sending you there?

He was sending the names so I had at least a week. I didn't know who my

Governor's Councilor was. So, then I said to myself, if I find that out and I can't

see him, I'm going to ask them for a week's postponement. But they went right

on.

And this was the years where you were expected to meet with them and get

people to call them and all of those things?

Correct, but I didn't have any trouble. I had Bob Quinn, I had John Droney, and

so I had people.

So you had influential people?

I had people who would call them. I just had to get a hold of them, find out who

they should talk to. But I had prior employers, and I had people in the Superior

Court who knew me. So it was not that difficult, but it was a little bit hasty.

Were you excited though?

I was. I was. And I kept thinking, oh my God, I hope I can do the work. The

worry every single woman lawyer I know has. Or had. They are more confident

now. It is interesting.

You really still thought at that point that you conceivably couldn't do the work?

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Well everybody worries a little bit. No way everybody doesn't worry about it.

Maybe Elena Kagan doesn't worry, but that's way beyond. I mean she's worried

too. She meets with everyone. So everybody worries.

So how quickly did your appointment go? Did the Council meet?

I sat in February, and this was in mid December. I had to finish the Superior

Court trials and one jury waived case. So I couldn't do it the next day. So it was

February 3rd.

And do you remember, I'm sure there was some publicity about your

nomination?

Yes.

How did that affect you?

You can't pay attention to it, if you're going to be in the judicial system.

You learn that in the Superior Court.

You learn that, because no matter what you do, somebody's not happy. It's the

only place where half the people you meet are unhappy with you.

Now at that point when you were going to go on to the Supreme Judicial Court,

did you know any of the other justices who were sitting at the time?

Oh I had been working there, so I knew Judge Cutter. I knew Judge Hennessey

because I had been a lawyer in a case that he was the judge on.

So many of them were still the same as before?

Yes.

From 4 years before?

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Yes, so, I knew Judge Cutter, I knew Judge Hennessey, I knew the Chief Justice,

Tauro, Judge Kirk I did know, but he was working from home.

And you were sworn in. Did you have a big swearing in?

I had no part in that swearing in. The Governor's office sent out all the

invitations. People I didn't know. My family had a party afterwards. Smaller,

people I did know.

But this was a big occasion, the appointment of the first woman to come onto the

SJC, so I'm sure they were pumping it up?

They sent invitations to absolutely everyone.

Now was that a big event? The swearing in?

Yes, That was in the big room in the State House, the big round room where they

had all the big events.

Oh, sure.

Whatever the room is.

One of the chambers?

Yes.

OK.

I think it's the House Chamber.

The House Chamber is larger, yes.

I think it was in the House Chamber. And Bob Quinn _was there.

And who spoke?

Quinn spoke. And Sargent spoke.

How nice.

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And, Dukakis spoke.

Now was your father still alive?

No.

How unfortunate. Was he alive when you went on the Superior Court? How about

your mother?

My mother was alive.

For both of your appointments?

For both of them. So she was very happy.

Oh, great.

Although, going back to the first interview, my mother's family was very wary of

me going into the law.

Your mother too, or just your family? I thought your mother was very supportive.

My mother was supportive, but my aunt said, oh, she'll never get married, she'll

never amount to anything, this is terrible.

But didn't they feel you had now proven yourself when you went on the bench?

One hopes.

Well, when my uncle died, the one aunt who was most adamant against my going

to law school said to me, "my husband picked a lawyer, but I don't trust him, so

will you ~e my lawyer?" So that vindicated everything.

That's great.

And so I became co-counsel, and I actually did most of the work, because my

uncle was an antique collector. The lawyer said we'll put it in an auction and

we'll sell it. And I said hey, I'm not going to do that, because my cousin has

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children. I didn't want to just dump everything. I knew that was the wrong way

to go.

Now going back to your appointment to the SJC, did you get or did you seek any

particular advice as you prepared to go on the court?

There wasn't any. The SJC is more open now than it's ever been, and it's still

kind of mysterious. But I knew something about it because I had been working

there. Judge Reardon was the judge I replaced. He left because he was not

appointed Chief.

So was Liacos already Chief when you went on?

No.

Who was Chief then?

Tauro.

Tauro. And then Hennessey, and then Liacos of course.

And then Wilkins.

That's right. Wilkins was after- was before Liacos, wasn't he?

After.

OK. So, in your first days and weeks on the SJC, how was it?

Terrible. I kept reading the briefs and saying, this is horrible. Two competing

interests and they're sort of fairly close on some issues and fairly far apart on

others. I would read those briefs 10, 15 times.

So you found the work itself difficult

Intimidating at first. Because you had to make the decision, and you had to write

it. It's not as if I were a trial judge I would think this way or that way, and let the

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appellate courts worry, and the lawyers adapt to whatever trial judges do. Lawyers

are really very adaptive.

But now you're the last word.

But now I'm the last word, so it's overwhelming when you think of it that way.

Because you think of the litigants, then I would think of the jurors. I, as a trial

judge would think what about the jurors, what would the jurors think. So it took a

little while to get used to the change.

Now back in those days did you still have, and I know they have a discussion

session after hearings, did you still have that? You still sat as a single justice some

of the time?

Yes. After arguments, they have what they call "semble" and we go through each

of the cases and everybody gives their view of the cases and the Chief assigns the

case. The semble starts with a case, then it goes from senior judge on the right,

next on the left and all the way down. And Judge Hennessey used to miss me all

the time. I originally thought that is because of the invisibility of women. But it

wasn't just that I was a woman, he always missed everybody that sat in that last

seat. But for 3 or 4 years I thought it was the invisibility of women that made him

skip over me.

Now did you speak up when that would occur?

I did. I'd say can I be heard? May I be heard? Especially if I didn't agree with the

majority.

Now when Tauro was running the show when you first got on, would that happen,

would you be missed?

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Tauro was Chief when Paul Liacos went on the bench. I don't think I sat with

Tauro, but I'm not sure.

Yes. I think that, I should have gotten my sequence down, but I think that Tauro

was certainly before Liacos because Tauro was from before my time.

So who came after Tauro?

Could it have been Hennessey? And then I believe ...

Liacos.

Liacos.

Well I think Hennessey was either

I can't remember which side of this Wilkins was on.

Wilkins was, Wilkins was the Chief. He retired nine months before I did. And he

retired as Chief.

Ok.

So he was the last Chief I worked with. And before that was­

Was Hennessey?

No, Liacos. And Hennessey was before that.

So you worked with all of them?

I worked with all of them.

And, so going back to Tauro for a minute. Would he pass over you? As the new

person?

I think Hennessey was already the Chief.

OK. How was Hennessey to work with in that sense?

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Hennessey had a daughter, so he was very good. What was interesting is the

week that I joined the court was not a sitting week, it was the week before. So

they had an administrative meeting. And the SJC has a whole host of committees

for which the women representing the Commonwealth, on every one of them was

Senator Pat McGovern. She was not a senator then. She was on the Public

Defender Committee.

And you already knew Pat, is that right?

I already knew her.

Certainly.

I said to them, they're going to put her on about 5 committees. They did not know

any women. I said, why don't we appoint some other women? And they said

they didn't know any other women. And the bar association did not send up a

single woman's name. So I said, send the list back and ask them to nominate

some women. We can pick the names. There's no reason for one woman to be on

every committee. And that the justices were perfectly willing to do it. It's just

they said, we don't know any.

Epstein: Did they put you in charge of that?

Abrams: No, no.

Interviewer: Or they did it themselves?

Abrams: They do it as a group. So, the Chief then says to somebody, to his administrative

staff, send a letter to the bar associations. I did call the people at the Women's

Bar, because MA WL (Mass. Association of Women Lawyers) didn't want to

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participate in litigation at that point, and said you should be sending names up

every time that notice goes out in Lawyers Weekly.

Who did you call there?

I'm trying to think, because obviously I knew Pat, I knew Charlotte. I knew a

whole bunch of the people.

So one of those folks?

I called somebody. I said, why aren't you sending in names like the Mass Bar or

the Boston Bar?

And then they started to do that?

And now they do it all the time, and there are women on every single committee.

And what is really crazy is I don't know why they didn't know any women.

Women were appearing before them all the time. From the DA's Office. From the

Public Defender's office.

And what do you think it was about their minds that didn't let them see that those

women might be appropriate?

I don't know. I think they just thought, well you've got to come through the bar

associations. And women were not very active in the bar associations at that time.

They are now, and all of the bars now send in names of both men and women.

Now, in this first administrative week that you were there, or the week that

included this administrative job, were there committees on the SJC, also, that you

were put on?

Yes, I was on the mental health legal advisors and the hearing list committee. And

the hearing list committee is the junior judges. The Chief doesn't sit on any of

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these. And we meet with the person who followed me in the job as legal counsel,

and we pick the cases that the SJC should take. Or we make a recommendation to

the full court. If three of us agree we should take it, it got taken, which is still true

today. If we don't, or if there's a question about whether we should take it, then

we send it to the full court. And then all of the cases go to everybody. The

hearing list committee would argue why we didn't think this should be taken for

the following reasons. But everybody reads them all, and sometimes the heariµg

list committee's recommendation was not followed. The committee usually was

right, because we' re looking for the issues that are being raised below.

I'm going to guess that that task was not intimidating to you.

No.

Because you knew what you were doing?

But, you see, now you're doing something different. You're saying to the court,

take this, or don't take it. Now, when I wrote up the other little memos, when I

did the other job, I didn't really make a recommendation, I just said this is an

issue presented in 2 cases. Sometimes the court could tell me there are cases

pending in the Superior Court, that are going to be coming up. And if they told me

that, I would put that case on the list because if there are a number of cases raising

the same issue, you try and get as many as you can together, so that you get a full

picture of the issue.

Now, in those first weeks you were on the SJC, do you remember your first

assignments? Were you assigned to things right away to write opinions?

Yes. I wrote an opinion called Consolidated Cigar.

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Was that your first one?

Yes, and it's about workers and what they could do, and it took place in Western

Massachusetts. And one of my friends in the Superior Court, Joe Nolan, who

ultimately came to the [Supreme Judicial] Court, sent me a box of cigars. I do

remember it.

How appropriate. I'm sure you smoked every one.

Oh, God. Nobody on the court smoked. It's a very interesting thing.

Liacos did.

Liacos did, but when we went to no smoking on the floor, he had to stay in his

office. But Herb Wilkins didn't smoke, Hennessey didn't smoke. Liacos was

really an exception.

I want to go back to when you first started writing. Did you have clerks already

assigned to you?

I had the clerk.

That Reardon had?

Yes. There was only one at that time.

I see. And so you had that person for the first year?

The transition.

0 K. And was that a man or a woman?

He was a young man.

And how did you work with him?

It was fine, except I think that he was more shocked than I was.

That Reardon was replaced, or that he was replaced by a woman?

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I think by a woman.

Did any of the other judges at the time have any comments or concerns or feelings

about you as a woman?

No I think they expected it. They expected this.

It was timely?

It was timely and they did accept it. Just like when Rick [Ireland] went up there.

It was time for a black and they knew it was going to come. We all knew.

And they were perfectly accepting?

Yes.

So it wasn't a situation such as you had with McLaughlin on the Superior Court?

When there were some who had qualms about it?

A lot at the time.

A lot who had qualms about it. And do you think that's because times had

changed in the 3 or 4 years?

I do think that. I think there were more, many more women coming into court.

The law schools were producing more women lawyers. Then there were television

programs with women trying cases and thing like that. And MCLE was

producing programs for women, really, on dressing for trial, for jurors. Men went

to it, too, because they also work with jurors and use non legal skills, appropriate

dress, and demeanor, and language, body language and things like that to teach

young lawyers what not to do, what to do.

And certainly there had been other appointments of women to the courts - not just

the SJC, but to other courts in those 4 years as well.

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Edith Fine was there, and she took my place. And Eileen Griffin was there. Betty

Dolan and Sheila McGovern were there in the probate courts. Those were the

first 3. Then there came a whole lot more. I don't know the order anymore. And

the District Court started getting women, so that the public got used to it.

Because District Courts of course are courts where if something exciting or

terrible happens, the first person to see it is the District Court judge. So the public

remembers that more than anything else.

At what point did you start feeling more comfortable with your position on the

SJC?

It took, took a few months. No question. And I was not really friendly with

anybody on the court at that time.

And did you feel there was more scrutiny on you in general, because you were a

woman in that position?

Yes, I think some of the lawyers - one of the lawyer said to me, the scariest part

was that the chairs are big and tall, and he said to me "it is so terrible to have an

empty chair asking you questions."

So you got someone to raise you up?

Then they got them to raise me up. But ifhe hadn't said anything, I would never

have known.

Did any of the court personnel or any of the attorneys have any particular

reactions to you as a woman?

No, they were fine. They, I think this was already expected. It was so far into the

women's movement that it was just something that they did expect.

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And so at some point did you start becoming friendly with some of the other

justices?

I did, and part of the problem, and this is a Superior Court problem as well as an

SJC problem, I was the first judge on the SJC that didn't get asked to join the

Union Club.

You mentioned that on the Superior Court.

And the Superior Court, if you sat in Worcester, the judges all went to the

Worcester Club. Edith Fine and I were in Worcester together. She was on District

Court, I was on the Superior Court. Edith called me and said that the club didn't

have any women as members, so we should not go. Well, then nobody went and

the camaraderie of having lunch together also went. They said, really there's no

place to go.

So when you were first on the SJC, the tradition would have been that the Union

Club would have extended an invitation to you to join?

Yes, correct.

And you were sitting in your office waiting for it?

Well, I didn't even know about it.

Ah, so when did you first learn that?

Judge Hennessey told me that they weren't going to offer me a membership. He

said Judge Cutter would like to put you up as a friend of his and then when they

see that you're not so terrible, they'll let you become a member.

And what was your reaction?

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I said no way. They're going to have to have women members, and I'm no·t going

until I am a woman member. Now they have women members, and the Algonquin

Club, the same.

So did the Union Club, did the other justices still remain members of the Union

Club?

Well, they petered out. They go near nisi primus the first of the month. Some of

them will go, Edith Fine went, I went once in a while, but no one was an active

member.

How many years all together were you on the SJC?

23. A long time.

What were the changes that you saw in the years that you were there?

Oh, it's unbelievable the number of women, the number of women in trial courts,

the number of women law professors, it was just like a flood. I mean it's a slow

flood, not a fast flood. The women's issues also changed.

How did that affect the practice as you saw it from your perch on the SJC?

I thought the practice got a little better for a while. I thought that women were

more, more likely to be particularly prosecutors, because I was still going back to

teach a little on trial practice. Women were not so, "you can't see the Grand Jury

minutes, you can't see the police report." Women tended to be more open. I think

that was a major factor in the change in criminal practice too. I mean nationwide,

but I think it was propelled a little by women saying, "you want to see the Grand

Jury minutes? Here they are." I mean for the most part it wasn't anything that

secret. The witnesses would testify, and they're going to testify probably pretty

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well the same way. You know you'll always have glitches, and witnesses who

recant and witnesses that don't tell the truth, but it was a more open system.

What other changes did you see from the prospective of sitting on the SJC?

Well, I just saw women being integrated much more than before.

Were there more women?

There were more women. At first, mostly DAs and public defenders. Then some

of the, I don't know what I want to say.

Private practice?

Yes, but not the big fancy private practice with the corporations, but the small

kinds of zoning issues, things like that. And then towards the end of it, there were

women mayors, women town counsel, women city solicitors or assistant city

solicitors .. So it was a much bigger universe of people. Now part of that was also

the law schools admitting more women.

Tell me about your selection of law clerks.

Well, this is how the SJC worked while I was there. There was one judge, mainly

the junior judge, who would interview the entire panel and make

recommendations. And that's what I did. I made a recommendation of who goes

in the pool and who doesn't. And then if I saw somebody that I thought would

match, for example, Judge Wilkins's personality, I would say to them- and the

judges pick by seniority- I would say, look for x or y, because I think you'd like

him or her. And Herb thought I was one of the best at selecting clerks.

Personality matchers.

Yes.

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Yes. And, so, you got to pick your clerk last.

Right.

Now, did you, when you first, as the junior justice looked at the range of selection

of clerks, were there a number of women who had applied?

There were a number of women who had applied.

And did you send some of those names on?

Oh, well, of course.

Were there women clerks at SJC when you got there?

No. And then they stopped. I don't know of anybody until I got there. There may

have been some, but I don't know them. Edith Fine, I think.

OK. And so in the first round of clerks that you sent on, were there some women?

I sent on a lot of names.

Right. Understood.

And I sent on as many women as I thought could do the job.

Of course. And were there some of those women in that first round selected so

there were some women clerks there?

There were.

And did you have, who was your first clerk, do you remember?

Alice Richmond in the Superior Court.

She was your first one?

Right.

Ah.

Now she was a Superior Court law clerk.

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OK.

So I'm trying to think now who was my first- I can't remember now. We had two

clerks. I tried to have a man and a woman every time, because people have

different perspectives, and gender is a perspective that can't readily be transferred

from one gender to another. And sometimes you do want a man's perspective on

things. Sometimes you want a woman's perspective. I remember an appeal from

the MCAD [Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination] and the landlord

was horrible to this woman because she was fat. And my male law clerk said to

me, oh my God that's ridiculous. I said, "don't even look at it, because it's not for

you." But my woman clerk, she understood itperfectly. She said, it's not that

she's fat, it's she's fat and a woman.

Interesting. Did you have any particular bonds with any of the, either women or

men clerks there?

I still see them.

Ah.

I still see them. I had one clerk whose mother was in my class at Radcliffe. And I

just talked to her the other day, and I had a young man who is still living in

Nevada who I stay in touch with. Pretty much I do keep in touch.

So did that- Well, let me go back to address the issue that you were so concerned

about, which was the isolation and being lonely. When did that-

It was lonely, and it is isolated. And it's still isolating because when I talk to

Margot Botsford, that's her biggest complaint about this job. And if you really

want to know, Margot Botsford, when she first went to the SJC, couldn't get over

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how little contact she had with people. Just the court officers, and the law clerks

and the other judges.

How did you deal with that in your first weeks and months on your job?

Well, you know, I saw my law clerks, and I saw my cousins, because they were

around.

Did you make efforts to be more social with the other judges, or were they not

receptive to that?

Well it's hard because they're all married, so they go home. Judge Liacos, I'm

guessing it was my third or forth year, he introduced me to his sister, with whom

I'm still friendly. And she in turn introduced me to Earl Cooley's first wife with

whom I am still friendly.

Refresh me on Liacos's sister's name, because I knew her.

Katherine Izzo.

Katherine Izzo, of course.

So, in that way my community expanded, and my sister had 2 sons, so I would

take them into court once in a while and things like that. They didn't think it

looked like much fun, and neither one of them became a lawyer.

Interesting. Did any of your nieces or nephews? I know you had a number ....

[Break in tape].

We were just talking about her 4 nieces and nephews, and you were just telling

me not one is an attorney. Didn't think it looked like a lot of fun.

They didn't think it looked like fun at all. The best I could do for them was, I said,

at common law, you become of age the day before your birthday. So they were so

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excited, they were going around with that opinion about common law to get a

beer the day before their birthday. I said, well what are you going to do with the

opinion? I'm going to show it to the bartender, they said.

That's great.

Did you stay connected when you were on SJC with the Women's Bar

Association, MCLE, any other groups? I know there's a limited amount you can

do.

I did and I did stay connected with Middlesex DA's office and I did teach a little

bit of trial practice.

For the DA's office?

For the DA's office.

Did you teach elsewhere?

At MCLE, Women's Bar, I did a couple of panels for the Mass Bar. But I did stay

connected with the Middlesex DA's office. I'm still connected. I go to their

alumni meetings and things like that. I also taught practice at Harvard with Judge

David Nelson.

And I assume all those activities made you feel less isolated?

That's right. I picked up, I did do a little more for the Mass Bar. There was a

Livingston Hall, he was a professor at Harvard, who was doing a proposed

criminal code. And I did go there and sort of corrected and criticized what they

were doing. And in the proposed codes, some of which weren't enacted as a code,

but some of which has come in over the years, he put a special note of thanks to

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me because I'd look at it and I'd say "what kind of crime is that?" And, you

know I had some experience.

You had that background.

Yes, and they didn't all have that background, so I could say "hey, you're creating

a crime that does not exist."

As the years went on at SJC, did you learn to like it more? Or less?

Yes. I did like it more.

How so?

It's not so frightening to make a decision. And it permeates all your life. You

know, when you've got to make a decision, you make it. And then whatever the

consequences are, you've made a decision. I have a lot of friends who can't really

make up their minds. Lawyers tend to be able to make up their minds. You just

can't live with maybe this, maybe that, maybe this, maybe that. So I think law

training, even if you don't practice, gives you a real head start in life. I couldn't

convince my nieces and nephews, but. ..

Now, while you were on the court, I'm trying to recall, was there another woman

on the court the entire time you were on?

No, I was alone for 19 years.

And then who came on?

Margaret Marshall.

And how did that change things for you?

Oh, it was lovely.

How so?

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I mean, you had someone you could have lunch with. She's very friendly. And, I

just felt I hadn't failed, because if no came on after me, that meant I failed. I felt

that way after I left the DA's office, and I told John Droney that. "We've got to

keep having women, otherwise I'm a failure."

An interesting thought that the first person there would have. Did you feel that the

DA's office, and Droney in particular, listened to you?

Oh, he had women after me all the time.

So you felt that you had been a success in that respect?

I hadn't failed.

You hadn't failed. And you hadn't failed, which in your definition had to do with

how you were able to bring other women along and open the doors for that?

Absolutely. Otherwise, you're a failure. And Eileen Griffin, who was alone with.

me on the Superior Court, felt the same way. She said we've got to get some more

women, because otherwise, we had failed.

So you specifically saw that as your role at these places?

I did.

It wasn't just that you succeed, it was that you succeed for other women?

And women, That's why I was so appalled that they weren't going to put women

on these committees. I mean, that's a big prestigious appointment to have the SJC

say you're going to be on this committee or that committee.

So, when you left, let's say the Attorney General's office, did you feel the same

way, that you had opened doors up?

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I did, but I couldn't get women in the criminal division. That was the biggest

problem.

Why do you think that was?

Because, I think the women were willing to try in the DA's office and in the AG's

office, but there weren't that many trials. We had the habes. We didn't have a lot

of trials. We had a few corruption cases.

And the men tended to keep the trials themselves?

They tended - well, the corruption cases absorbed everybody. And the DA's

office had such a volume that women can get noticed, they can try cases, they can

do the appeals, they can do the motions. The volume is there. It's just not there in

the Attorney General's office.

But certainly that came after your time?

Yes.

It took a long time.

It took a long time.

Now, when you went on the Superior Court you must have had, as you said, that

same mindset. I must not fail for-

Other women.

Now, let me just ask, why do you think it is that you think about it, and Edith Fine

thought about it is, or Eileen Griffin, that I shouldn't fail as opposed to I'll be a

spectacular success for other women? It's an interesting way of looking at it.

I don't know. I don't really know. I know that we all thought that if we didn't do

okay, we would fail and other women wouldn't come on.

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So you really saw that as your responsibility?

It was women's responsibility. It was all the women's responsibility to bring

people along. That's still true. I mean, parents bring children along. Women who

are in jobs, they have to bring other women along. Otherwise, we're going to stay

right where we were. And I think that's true for blacks. I think it's true for

Hispanics. They have to bring other people along.

Because other people don't necessarily look out for them.

That's right.

Now, when you left the Superior Court and went on the SJC, did you feel that

things had opened up for women more there, because you had been on the

Superior Court?

Yes, not a lot, but there were a lot more women law clerks, which was a good

sign. And I was replaced by Edith Fine. So we hadn't failed. Women were now

being nominated, because they were doing a good job.

And Eileen Griffin was still on the court.

Eileen was still on the court.

So when you left and Edith replaced you, there were still only 2 women on the

Superior Court?

Yes, and I forget the order now.

There were others after.

There were others after. Betty Dolan, Sheila McGovern went on the Probate

Court. Betty Dolan who had been on the, sort of the District and Probate part

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time, they were both part time, she came on the Superior Court. So, there were

more and more.

Now, as you sat there over all those years on the SJC without another woman for

19 years, did you feel that somehow you hadn't done your part?

No, there were not that many vacancies. That's the problem.

And meanwhile there were more women on the Appeals Court.

More women on the Appeals Court. We appointed a woman clerk for the SJC.

Exactly.

So, there were lots of spots you could put women that would make them more

visible to the public, and make it a slot that both women and men could compete

for.

As you look at the SJC now and you see the number of women, do you think

that's changed the court in some way?

The SJC is very hard to change. They still have semble, they still have

consultation on the last Wednesday of the month and they still have

administrative meetings. The bar associations now do send up names of people in

almost every group. And there are a lot of bar associations, too, that want to be

heard. So, I think- But it is still very sort of esoteric. And lots of lawyers don't

pay any attention to us because we have no affect on their practices or their lives.

The years that you were on the SJC, did you have much connection with any of

the judges on the Appeals Court?

Well, I knew Judge Perretta, and I knew Judge Dreban very well. I also knew

Judge Greaney.

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So did those judges become part of your circle?

I did. They did. We would have lunch. And I knew Marilyn Sullivan from the

Land Court.

And did you still stay connected with the women on the Superior Court?

Yes. Well this is still a small group.

Was there a point where you felt that that-

I'll tell you where I thought I'd brought women along. They had a case brought

by, I forgot it, but the insurance industry. And they covered all male illnesses,

prostate cancer, all sorts of male diseases. The insurers wouldn't cover pregnancy.

And, I think it was Mass. Electric that brought a suit and the case went to MCAD

first. I think the women won at that level and there was an appeal. When the SJ C

had the case, I got all of my judges to agree that they didn't have to cover

pregnancy, but they couldn't cover any male specific diseases if they didn't cover

pregnancy.

That turned the tide.

It certainly made the insurance industry unhappy. We received countless letters

from unions and the insurance industry. But it was so crazy, every male specific

disease was covered, and the one place you need insurance, pregnancy, wasn't

covered.

And is that something you felt that you were able to sway in your semble?

Yes. Well, I think they would have gone- they might have gone that way, but I

said, that is just outrageous to do that. The most common thing women need

insurance for when they're young is pregnancy.

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Are there other cases like that where you felt the court made a difference for

women?

Yes, there's one where I wrote a dissent called Bell v. Bell. I can't remember

what it was about. Judge Cutter wrote the opinion for the Appeals Court, and I

thought he was right. He wrote it in an old fashioned way. I couldn't convince the

Court of that.

So you felt you had people on your side? On the same side as you were?

I think Judge Hennessey for the most part, Judge Wilkins for the most part, and

Judge Liacos for the most part. They certainly all were with me for the pregnancy

issue.

So, since you've retired, how have you stayed connected in with those issues?

Well, I'm doing 2 things, 3 things, I guess. I am working one day a week. Not

always one day a week, but mostly one day a week with Women's Lunch Place

trying to get housing for homeless women.

Oh, great. How do you work with them?

I go there and I call everybody and I try and get women housing. It was much

easier when the economy was better, because now everybody wants public

housing. And you get calls from some of these towns. I got a call from a town, I

won't mention the name. They called me up and say stop sending Boston's

flotsam and jetsam to our town.

And you said what?

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I said, you have to do this, there's a regulation. These are people who need

homes. This woman has 3 kids, and you've got a 3 bedroom apartment that's

empty. I could find the regulations and read them.

You can't issue an order for that anymore.

No, but that's a violation of their right to have Federal housing. I knew the

Federal housing people. I know a couple people in the Boston Housing who are

just wonderful. They'll call me up and say, I'm not talking to you, but tomorrow

we're evicting someone, I'm not saying that you should put in a name, but it's got

a bedroom, 2 bedrooms, or 1 bedroom.

Just in case you do.

Yes. So we would do it, but it's very difficult. And I have to tell you that a lot of

these women who are homeless are either mentally ill or drug and alcohol

addicted. They don't want to be homeless. And you can't always tell who is

homeless. There's one woman there, I thought she was one of the staff. She was

very good. She told me she went to Mount Holyoke. I found out afterwards, she

was one of the people we serve.

So do you enjoy this kind of work? I don't know if enjoy is really the right word.

Enjoy is just not the right word.

Is it meaningful?

It is meaningful, because if you can get an apartment for somebody with kids, the

kids can register for school. If you don't go to a shelter, and you're homeless,

your children can't go to school because they don't have any way of funding the

schools. So it's a terrible situation.

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You said there were a couple of ways you stay active. How else?

Well, I do teach at the DA's office. I'm still active in the Middlesex DA's office. I

think Jerry Leone is an excellent DA. He's done a lot of outreach.

So, what do you teach there?

Search and seizures trial and appellate practice.

The substantive law topics?

Mostly. Sometimes I say, "don't walk into the SJC and say hi guys." That's not

appropriate. Because sometimes these kids are very ...

Casual?

Like they made a big fuss when I was on the court because we said people

couldn't come in jeans and t-shirts. Now when I was going to school and when I

was practicing, that wasn't even an issue. It wasn't even an issue.

It's a different world.

It's a different world. In fact, some of the women lawyers were telling me that

judges in the Superior Court and District Court said they couldn't wear pants

suits. But I guess that died down because we never got any litigation about it.

Seems a little crazy.

I know I've been asking about your retirement, but are there other things about

your SJC years that you wanted to mention?

I'm just trying to think. I told you about all these clubs, so we didn't have a lot of

luncheons. People would go out to lunch together. And we did change that policy,

where we didn't go to any clubs. When we went out to either lunch or dinner, it

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was always a public restaurant. I think that is a better policy. Their loss as far as

I'm concerned.

The clubs' loss?

Yes. Now they're trying to go on a recruitment to get women to join.

And I'm sure you were the first to sign up.

Oh boy. And Nan Keohane who was president of Wellesley was told by the

doorman at the Algonquin Club that she couldn't walk in the front door. This guy

with no education, telling the president of a very prestigious women's college,

you can't walk in that door. The President of State Street at that time, did the

same thing Walter McLaughlin did and walked her in.

I think it's hard for-

It's hard for me to understand that.

Yes, but it's also hard I think for young women attorneys to even connect with

those experiences.

That's right. They say the glass is half empty. I say it is half full, because they

don't know what it was like. I mean, they don't have Judges telling them they

should wear white gloves in the courthouse, they don't tell them they can't wear

pants suits. They don't have everyone telling them that they cannot go in the bar

enclosures. Everytime I went to a new county, the court officer or the lawyers

would tell me I could not go in the bar enclosure in the courtroom. That never

happens now.

In what ways did you see the glass as half empty, though? Where do you think we

still have to go?

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Well, women are not really senior partners at major law firms. They don't inherit

clients for the most part. I would have said a couple of years ago that Harvard

Law School is still behind, but they've had two women deans so far, so I can't

complain about that. And the women deans have tried to make up for the vastly

overpopulated male population in the faculty. Harvard has a women president

now.

Do you think that's been successful?

Yes. And the students at Harvard Law School who thought that it is the most

unhappy place in the world, are now very happy with what's going on. I had not

one woman professor in seven years at Harvard Radcliffe and then in Harvard

Law School, not one. And this is supposed to be an educational institution. It's

very hard to change, and people don't really give up power. They don't really

want to share it. They want to keep it.

So, are there other ways in which you still see the glass as half empty?

Ah, well, the senior partner thing. I think mostly the law schools have equal, or

almost equal numbers of women and men. But it is in the major complex

litigation. The major economic cases are still white males. No doubt about it.

Was that still so even in your last years on the SJC, in terms of who was in front

of you and who was arguing cases?

If you look right now, at the hedge fund people, they all have white male lawyers

from big firms in New York. Occasionally they'll have women lawyers, but it's

not the rule. And I think that they feel more comfortable. And that's got to break

down, but I don't know how soon. Still, and yet, I think there are probably women

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who are doing the work for the hedge fund men, unbelievably. So, on the other

hand, women are on the boards. Not a vast number, but they've got some. But,

there are no women who are visible at the hedge funds that have lead the country

down the wrong path.

That's true. That's true. I think what I'd like to do is just take a little break.

We're now asking a follow up question about what makes things better, what

makes the glass half full?

Well, the police are not so worried about having a woman lawyer assigned to their

case. Women lawyers are now trying cases in both the DAs and the public

defenders offices. Murder cases, robbery cases, you had to do a long

apprenticeship to get to those cases before. The bar associations have been led by

women as well as men. So the profession itself has become more accepting. Now,

it's also become more criticized - Jay Leno says a bad thing about lawyers every

other night. There's always all of the comedians. So in that respect, they've got to

do- be more transparent, they got to do more to show the important things lawyers

do and not the stupid things they sometimes do.

Do you think the influx of women in all areas of the law has changed the

profession in some ways?

It's very hard to change the profession. The legislature can change it somewhat

so, and I do think that, for young women who ask, when I talk to young women, I

tell them if you want to take care of your family, run for school committee in your

home town, run for town offices, do what you can- write law review articles. I've

got several law clerks, who took five, seven years out, and when they had help,

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they would go to the law library and write something. It was interesting, so that

when they came to look for jobs they had done law review articles or Mass Bar

articles, because the discrimination was so bad that women can do it now. And I

think I talked to Margot Botsford about the law review article that Alan Rodgers

wrote about how badly jurors were - how women jurors were treated in this state.

And I do have a thing I do for the League of Women Voters. After the 1920

Amendment allowing women to vote was passed, Chief Justice Rugg still did not

want women as jurors. Frank Grinnell, who used to write the Little Green Book,

was writing articles about why women shouldn't be jurors. Chief Justice Rugg

wrote an opinion to that effect. And he is one of the revered judges.

What's the Little Green Book?

Frank Grinnell used to put out, it's like the Mass Law Quarterly, but it was before

the Mass Law Quarterly. And he was writing all sorts of articles on why women

couldn't be jurors. They could vote, but they can't be jurors. There's a very good

law review article I'm going to tell Margot about, because it covers it all. And

that's my speech to the League of Women Voters, on why they should be

concerned with the criminal justice system. Why they should watch it, make sure

those things are right. You know, part of the problem now is that there are so

many contentious issues.

Such as?

Abortion, right to die, medical treatment, the right to refuse treatment, custody. It

would be very difficult when you have a child and the mother and father disagree

and have to go to court. Or, if it's a child, and you're going to take, like a case in

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the SJC once, a kidney from one twin for the other twin. That type of issue is

going to continue to be a problem.

What advice would you give young women attorneys or new women attorneys, or

all women in general who might be thinking of going into the law? That's too

many questions at once.

Well, do it if you want to do it and you like it, but don't do it just to pass the time

because there's nothing else around. You have to be - it is a commitment. It's a

major commitment and it's a major part of your life. And if you do it, you should

use it. Now, you don't have to use it practicing law, but you should use it by being

active in your city or town. As I said before, run for mayor, run for school

committee, make sure the libraries can operate. This town in the South Shore, the

name of which I can't remember now, was going to close the public library. And

2 women lawyers said, no you're not, we're going to fund it by keeping it open

just a few hours a week, and the mothers and the women will start working on it

so we can be open five days a week. And they got it open. And they got funded.

Because you don't just close public libraries in the city. It makes the city not a

good city. Women lawyers can do things like that. They can work on issues. The

right to die issues are going to be very big, and they can become experts in that.

What I would tell them is, don't go to the hedge fund and the big money jobs,

because they're not as much fun. There's lots of fun in things you can do in the

law. The hedge funds - it's very serious, if you make a mistake- I mean, I don't

think BP executives feel very happy right now, even their lawyers.

Probably not enough women up there.

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There are no women. You never see a single woman. The only person who got

fired was a woman working for the Government, but apparently she didn't watch

BP or she is a scapegoat.

It sounds like you also think it's important for women and women attorneys, to

stay active and connected politically.

I think that's right, because if you don't- I mean, people don't want to give up

power. That's the answer. So, women have to fight like everyone else. They have

to want to do it - and it's for their children. Not just for their daughters, but for

their sons.

Do you have any comments on the recent studies that show a number of women

either not practicing law, or leaving the practice?

I do think that's a serious problem. I think it is a problem when women don't use

their education. I think it is also a problem for the law firms to say you can have

people here work 2200, 2400, 2600 billable hours, because everyone has to have

something else in their lives. And I think that the big firms are going to have to

think about that, because it's not fair to women and it's not fair to the men. A lot

of men are leaving the practice because of the 2200, 2400, 2800 hours worked,

because they want to spend some time with their families. They don't want to be

at work all the time. So I think the practice of law has to reflect that people don't

want to do that anymore.

Do you think that really has changed, that people don't want to do that, and

there's going to be a change in the practice?

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I don't think it's changed at the very top. I think the hedge fund lawyers, they're

all going to want to do it. But I do think that in the middle it has changed. And

they're willing to go to smaller firms, live on less money and have a different kind

of life. I don't know if you know Maria Krokidas.

Sure do.

She and her friend - I can't think of his last name. They just said we're not going

to be open on Saturday and Sunday. And the world did not come to an end. They

get their clients. They had to work, they did. But basically they said it's going to

be 9 to five, 8 to 6, something like that, but we're not going to work on weekends.

We're going to stay with our families. And I think there are a number of small

firms now doing that. I don't know how the big firms are going to survive.

Because, maybe they'll get lots of people that want to do it, but I don't know. I

mean, men don't want to do it now. It's not just women. Other people want to do

other things. I do think you should use your education if you've got it. Even if it's

volunteer work. You've got to use your education, because, the one thing about

men is they respect women lawyers because as one man said to me, women

lawyers know what page the answer is on in the book. As opposed to wpmen who

don't go to law school, so therefore they know what page it's on because they

have done it for a million years, but the men don't trust it. And I think that's- I

think that's happening in hospitals, too. Not many women are head of hospitals

right now. My nephew has had a surgical residency for University Hospital,

Cleveland Clinic in Ohio - I can't remember the name of it. He says that when

they put their ads out for residents to apply, he said especially women, and we get

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more women than other places because we say women, come and be a surgeon.

And he says there's a lot of women who want to do it, but they don't see it as

possible. He said women are being pushed into general practice, family practice,

because men don't want to do it.

Do you think that's true in the law? That women still get pushed into certain

areas?

I still think that they're pushed more into domestic relations. Their presence is

much bigger.

You mean than any other practice area?

Yes.

And why do you think that is? As someone who is in domestic relations.

Because women want to talk to women-who have some compassion. They're

very good at talking to other women. Men are not very good at times. And I think

they sort of know it. You know, women know the problems with the schools, the

kids, support. They just have a sort of general, I mean not that they don't have to

learn all the things, but they have a general feel for it because their friends are

there. But I think domestic relations is where- I think the other area where they're

going to go very big in is environmental.

Why do you think that is?

Because they have children. And I think that's a very important aspect of that.

Because kids are being trained to think about the environmental impact. And I

think women will sort of see that it's a field that's good - it's interesting. And I

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have no idea what's going to happen then with the electronic stuff, absolutely

none.

Why the electronic stuff?

All the media stuff, what's going to happen with biogs, and libel and slander, and

how is it going to get regulated?

Social media?

I don't even have a clue. I could turn on my computer. That's the extent of it - but

the kids they all know it. They don't have any trouble with this stuff, really. I

thought it was interesting the other day. My niece and nephew, twins, graduated

from 8th grade so the school wanted to know what they wanted. The girls wanted

to have a party. The boys wanted to go to a baseball game. So there are still big

divides around young men and women. So the school did both. They had an

afternoon game the kids all went to, and then the next day they had a party. But

the school couldn't pick.

Too great a division?

I thought it was very interesting that they couldn't pick only one activity. And

these kids are only 13.

And I bet the same is probably true in kindergarten?

I don't know about that young.

Yes, yes.

But at 13, the boys say what do you mean party? Let's go to a baseball game.

Someone's got to take them to a baseball game. It's not like they have a

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wonderful team, it's Cleveland. So, they went, and Cleveland won that day. Now,

girls are a little behind in athletics, but not a lot. Not a lot.

Title 9 has made such a difference. You and I of course grew up with­

Without Title 9.

Yes. We didn't have to do any of that.

We didn't have to do anything.

Yes.

But professional sports are still basically all male, too. I don't think that's going to

change.

No.

I mean in ice skating women prevail, but that's really not baseball, or football or

anything like that.

Guys still want to watch the guys play ball, not the women, and there aren't

enough women sports fans to carry the day.

So there are areas and pockets, but I think by and large- Of course, I don't know,

on the cruise ship they're mostly all male employees, too. Except for

entertainment. So there's a lot of room. But the law, I think, has to be more a part

of the community. That's what holds the community together, is their mutual

respect for the law.

So as you look back at your career in the law, is there anything you'd do

differently?

Oh, probably, but. ..

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I mean just in terms of the decisions you made. Obviously you achieved a great,

pinnacle in your appointments, but looking back at that, do you wish you had

stayed in private practice? Just in terms of your personal experience.

Well, I had the most fun in the DA's office, no question about that. That was like

just going to the movies every day. It's not as much fun now because it's more

regulated, but it was a- I mean there were only 13 of us in the whole Middlesex

County, and that's 54 cities and towns. So, it was, more spontaneous, more fun.

But there must be- You know, I'm looking back. The kids who are there might

think it's fun now, too. Looking back, it doesn't look to me as much fun now, but

I think if you're in the middle of it, it might be just as much fun. It's still one of

those places where you get a lot of trial experience and get into court a lot. I don't

think that's changed.

You get a lot trial experience, and you also learn a lot about human nature. You

learn about how you appeal to a jury, how you pick a jury. And all of that goes to

all sorts of other skills.

Yes.

You learn to read people and to think about it. I think politics could be better if

more women were there. I mean I hope that it would be better. I don't know

about at the very top, but local politics might be better. And, you can't tell,

because looking back doesn't mean what's going to happen in the future.

So would you still recommend law as a profession to women?

Yes. But on the condition that they really want to do it, and they're not just doing

it because there's nothing else around. If you're doing it because there's nothing

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else around, you're not going to like it, you're not going to. You're going to

waste your time and your money. It was $600 dollars when I went to Harvard

Law School. $600 dollars doesn't get you the text books today. It's extraordinary

how expensive it is. So you have to think, "I want to do it. I can make a difference

and that's what I want to do." Although, right now with the recession, there's not

a lot of teaching positions. Women lawyers could create these courses in

American History about the law. This is really a very unique thing in history.

There's no other country that has this kind of a system, and they could put this

course in schools, even if it was just voluntary, because it's really unique and

quite wonderful, and people should think about that. But you've got to want to do

it, not just say, "I don't know what I'm going to do so I think I'll go to law

school." Because that's not the way.

And that's certainly true for women and men.

It is true for everybody. You can't just say. I'm going to go to law school because

there's nothing else around. That's my final word.

Anything else you want to add?

I don't know what's in there right now. I can't even remember what I said.

Well we can certainly add things later if as you look at it and think there are other

things.

Well, whenever you have it, I'll come in and pick it up and I'll edit right away.

If women want to go to law school they should do it, but they should want to go

so they can practice law or work on projects that involve the law or explain the

law, or become active in making the practice better. And I think women are

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making the practice better, because even when I was there in 2000, 1995, lawyers

would say to me, I don't want to go to a big firm. I have a former law clerk who

worked in a big firm, saved all his money, bought a farm in Connecticut and

started a small law firm. And he does what his friends and neighbors do. Doesn't

want a lot of money. He wants enough to live. He doesn't want the big salary and

the overwhelming hours. I think there are a lot of men like that, too. How would

you like to be head of BP?

Not right now.

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ORAL HISTORY OF THE HON. RUTH I. ABRAMS (Ret.)

FIFTH INTERVIEW

October 22, 2010

This is the fifth interview of the oral history of Ruth I. Abrams which is being taken on behalf of

Women Trailblazers in the Law, a Project of the American Bar Association Senior Lawyers

Division. It is being conducted by Elaine Epstein on October 22, 2010.

This is a tape recording of Justice Ruth Abrams on October 22nd, 2010. We are reviewing some

additional information that may not be in our previous tapes.

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Now there were judges who wouldn't let me into the lobby without a court

officer. They analogized it to doctors who always had a nurse with them while

they were examining patients.

And this is when you were in the Superior Court?

Yes. And I never could understand it, but that did happen.

Did you say something about it at the time?

I didn't know what to say. I was so stunned, I didn't know what to say.

Rendered speechless?

Rendered speechless. It was the last thing I thought of. Maybe the Judge didn't

want to talk to one side or the other without both sides being present. I could

understand that.

Did that continue the whole time?

No, it did not, and there were only a few of the judges who felt like that. I don't

think it happens today at all.

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Let me ask you, are there other things that you thought of?

I did think of one thing, and that was when I first became a member of the bar.

Every County where I went in, they would tell me I couldn't go in the bar

enclosure because they thought I wasn't a lawyer. So there wasn't a single county

where I went into the enclosure without being stopped.

This is when you were still practicing?

I was practicing. There was not one single County that I went in where the Court

Officer or a lawyer didn't tell me I shouldn't go beyond the barrier, because it was

only for lawyers.

And when that happened what did you do?

I'd try to say I passed the bar. I am a lawyer.

And what was their reaction?

Nothing. I think they believed me, because nobody ever stopped me after that. But

it was interesting that I was questioned and I don't think that happens now.

Some of that was still happening even when I was there in the mid '70s, so it died

a slow death.

It died a very slow death. In Suffolk and Middlesex where I was known, it was

much faster, but if I had to go to Norfolk or Worcester or Salem, I had to say I'm

a member of the bar. It was incredible. As I look back I think how did I do it? But

when you're in it, you do it.

You were and are a determined person.

It was really great.

Are there other things you thought of that you wanted to add?

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Well I did write some notes.

Oh great. Why don't we put those on tape?

When I was working in the DA's office a friend of mine called and said Roger

and I just signed a P&S for a house in Wayland. Boston Five is giving us the

mortgage. I said, well I'll go over and look at the title, because I just work across

the street. And she said well they've got the mortgage on the property so I don't

think there's a problem. I said, well I'll go look, I need the experience. I went

over there and I went through and I found a bridle path in the middle of the house.

I remember this. I think you told me this.

I think I did. So I called her back, I said there's a bridle path in the middle of the

house. She called Boston Five, she said they had done the title five years before

that, so I told her to give them the book and page. I had the book and page

numbers. There were no photo copies then. Doing the deed would have been a

big deal. It turns out there was a bridle path. I don't know what happened to the

property, but she cancelled the agreement.

So you were her hero?

I still am. We're friends to this day. The Boston Five lawyer was very nice, but I

think he made a mistake. He called, and I gave him the book and page. He called

back, he said no, you were right, and then he said by the way, if you're looking

for a job would you be interested? And as I reflected back, I did get sort of serious

job offers at different times when I met mostly civil lawyers and they would say,

oh if you're looking for a job.

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Which would leave aside that if you could have been a title examiner, it was

probably due to the quality of the work you did.

Well, I think they were shocked that they had a title and land with a house that

had a bridle path right through it.

Do you think that the attorneys who were offering you jobs were often surprised

at the level or quality of work you did?

I think, some of these jobs - like being in the legal department of Boston Five,

which was title work, they thought were good, great jobs for a woman. I have

another one here. I think I have it in the typed version. We had a summer house

in Hull, now a winter home. My sister lived in it and she was at Parker Coulter,

which is a very famous insurance defense firm.

Who was at Parker Coulter?

This lawyer who lived in back of our home. I can't remember his name. He said

to me, we would like to hire you to be in charge of all the pleadings and

interrogatories and you would have the staff of dozens. We need someone to

make sure the interrogatories get done, get the witnesses, that people were in

court, when they are.

Kind of like a legal administrator?

Administrator. Catherine White likes doing that now. The other lawyers argue

their cases in front of her. And at that time I thought it would have been terrible to

be a young woman, younger than anybody at the department, including the Judge.

Any person, man or woman.

About what year was this when he made the offer to you?

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Maybe '58, '59.

Now were you insulted by that?

No, I thought he was well meaning. He thought I could do it. He thought it would

be a good job and a lot of security. This was an old insurance defense firm.

Right. Parker, Coulter, Daily and White, right?

I only remember Parker and Coulter.

I remember.

I think his name was Bob. I don't know, because he was the senior partner. And

he said we' re looking for someone who will make sure our discovery is on time,

and get our lawyers where they should be on time.

All these other career paths that you fortunately didn't take.

Right, and I knew I couldn't head a teqm of as many paralegals as they had. I'd be

the youngest person there and the only person who went to law school, but those

women knew what they were doing. And the title examiners knew what they were

doing, much more than I did - I lucked out on that house in Wayland.

But of course these jobs were either non-legal or an accepted area for women.

Accepted area for women.

Probably had you decided to be involved in the probate of estates, that would

have been appropriate, too.

Yes, anything that was - of course they didn't have as many paralegals in those

days. People didn't have assistants, legal assistants and people doing legal briefs

and editing.

Now were there other things that you thought of that you wanted to add?

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We'll go through these notes and I'll tell you. All right?

Ok, great. Well let me ask you about one thing actually before we start. You had

mentioned that you were co-counsel on the DeSalvo case. And I should say that

DeSalvo was the very famous case of the alleged Boston Strangler.

Non Boston Strangler.

The non Boston Strangler.

We had the garden variety cases.

Was this when you were in the D.A. 's office?

Yes. The prosecutor was Donald Conn whose son I'm still friendly with but he

died quite a lot of years ago. His father was a legislator.

Can you tell me about your involvement in the case?

Oh, we had the garden variety cases. And, we kept saying, we have no proof he's

the strangler. We had, what's his name? John Bottomly. So he was the Assistant

Attorney General and he interviewed DeSalvo. No Miranda warnings, nothing.

What did DeSalvo say in that interview?

We don't know, because Bottomly died and we couldn't find any notes or

anything.

So what were the garden variety cases?

F. Lee Bailey's defense was DeSalvo did it, but he was legally insane. And we

were right at the time where they were looking at changing the rule from

McNaughton to McHoul. We were trying it under McNaughton because that was

the rule.

Which would have meant what? Explain the difference.

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The difference is that in McNaughton you had to know right from wrong. In

McHoul you either had to have substantial capacity to conform your conduct to

the requirements of law or substantial capacity to know right from wrong. So that

lowered the burden really, a little bit. And then came the appeal on the non really

DeSalvo murder case.

What were those cases, the garden variety?

They were breaking and entering and larceny. I can look that up.

No. B&Es and larcenies are the more garden variety cases from the very places

that he was supposed to have killed someone?

No. These are all separate. We kept them all separate and we just tried him on the

garden variety cases.

And then as I recall, he was incarcerated. He was then killed.

Right, but he was convicted at the time. His defense was insanity and of course if

you put it in as history, there was no substantive evidence against him. And there

was this doctor working for the state then named Robey. I think it's R-0-B-E-Y.

And Bailey offered his evidence as medical history. So we didn't have any

substantive evidence, but he put it in as medical history. If the jury accepted the

medical history on the garden variety cases, he would have been found not guilty

by reason of insanity on these cases.

On a murder case? I didn't think he was ever tried on a murder case.

No, but he put in the evidence from the psychiatrist as medical history.

In the trial of what case?

The garden variety cases.

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So they tried to use insanity as a defense on those?

They put in the medical history which isn't evidence that he did it.

And the jury rejected it?

The jury rejected it. There was a wonderful juror named Glen who was number,

8. And when the jury came back he winked at me and I said to Donald Conn "I

think we won".

And so he was incarcerated on those crimes when he was then killed?

Yes. He made jewelry. He made silver necklaces and they were called "Chokers

by Albert DeSalvo."

I remember that.

And then the other thing I don't have in there, I worked on the Kerrigan case

which was the killing of a police officer and then at the jailhouse, his accomplice

killed a guard, head of the Middlesex County jail. And I think it was the last or

the next to the last capital cases tried in Massachusetts.

Were you asking for the death penalty?

We didn't have to ask for it. It just went to the jury. And the jurors would decide.

It was not like today. They would come back with a verdict of a first degree, or a

second degree or a manslaughter or a not guilty, whatever went to them.

And what did they do in that case?

Guilty.

And how did you feel about that? You told me you were against the death penalty

last time, is that right?

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I know. But, you know, we also knew that there had been no executions since

1947.

I see. Was he executed or not?

No. He may have been killed in prison or he died in prison. Nobody's been

executed since 194 7, so essentially we don't have capital punishment.

So you just tried those capital punishment cases like any other case?

Like any other murder case.

Right, knowing that it was unlikely that death was going to result?

What it did do is stop any idea of the governor commuting a life sentence, and no

parole.

I believe that's correct, on first degree. Now you also had recalled that you taught

trial practice at Harvard with David Nelson who is a former federal judge.

And was on the Superior Court.

I forgot that he was on the Superior Court.

Yes, the Superior Court and the Federal Court.

Right the federal District Court in the 70s and early 80s. Did you want to say

something about that?

Yes. He had such a funny sense of humor.

He was a wonderful person.

He said to me one day, "Get in the judges' elevator with me and put this apron

on." And I said what? And he said yes, do it. And then he headed down and he

kept saying to people who were coming in, "we're just the cleaning help. We're

just the cleaning help."

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That's wonderful. And people listening to this need to know that Judge Nelson

was black.

Right.

That's wonderful.

And everybody decided to use the judges' elevator, because the other elevators

are so slow. And so people would get on and they'd look at us, and we'd say

"we're just the help, we're just the cleaning help."

That's great.

Then Walter McLaughlin told us not to do it anymore.

Who told you that?

Walter McLaughilin. He was the chief of the Superior Court.

That's great. How was it to teach with David Nelson?

Oh, so much fun. He really was fun.

I wish I could have been in that trial practice class.

We had- I'm trying to think of the name of the attorney. I'll think of it.

Someone who still practices in Boston?

Yes.

Someone like Mike Mone?

That's who it was. So we had Mike Mone there, and he showed the students how

to get inconsistent statements in evidence. And he did it in about five sentences.

So Mike was a trial attorney, giving a demonstration?

Yes. And he did it in about 5 sentences. And then this young man from Harvard

was going to try to do it. Same issue, same thing, and he went on for about fifteen

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minutes. And finally I said, the object is to get the two inconsistent statements

close together. And he said, "that's your style and Mr. Mone's, but it's not mine."

So I thought, that's a little different!

That guy has guts.

And then I had a young woman, who was trying to get a telephone conversation in

evidence because the defendant used to be a bookie. She needed the telephone

conversation to prove he was a bookie. And she kept saying what's with the man

on the other line? And I said you have to put in a foundation. "I would if I knew

how." So we had to go through that again. So it was fun, because the kids felt

very relaxed with him. It wasn't I have to get this right or this isn't the way they

do it. And then the student said "that's not my style." Mike Mone said "yes, but

maybe you should try a different style."

A delicate way of putting it.

Mike Mone did such a great job.

He's a terrific lawyer.

Yes, and you know the kids could see it. You could see the inconsistencies right

away.

That's great. Are.there other things you remember about teaching there that you

want to add?

I can remember how eager these students at Harvard were, to learn how to do all

the jobs and most of them ended up doing office work. There wasn't any doubt in

their minds they were going to big firms and they would not do trials.

They were not likely to be doing trial work.

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They were not likely to be doing that, but they wanted to learn how. And I was

impressed that they wanted to learn how.

Were there many women in your classes when you taught?

Yes. There were many more at that point. It wasn't 50 percent, but it was 30 to 40

percent, so it was getting there.

And did you find the women were as ready to speak up and demonstrate things as

the men?

They were. They were.

Different from when you were there.

And they didn't have ladies' day at the law school anymore. The clubs are all

open. Not the Harvard clubs, but the main competition clubs are all open. They all

have women. And women have won some of these competitions. So it is much

better. They were, I think this was in there too, some survey found that the

Harvard Law School students were the most unhappy at the time. Now, it' hard to

be unhappy when you're at a big name law school, because you're going to get a

big time job, but they managed.

Contrary to your usual advice about be patient, don't complain.

They managed, but when Elena Kagen became the Dean, she went with the

groundskeeper over to the Harvard Business School and showed them the

Harvard Business School Gym. And she said if I give you all my discretionary

funds, will you get me a gym as good as this? And he said I'll get you one that's

better. So the first thing she did was get the kids a gym, barred the faculty so that

it was only for students, and then she set it up as part of the administrative

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building called Harkness. It has a cafeteria, has the Coop at the bottom floor, and

she set up a little coffee bar, and it was free, and the kids could have their club

meetings there or study there, and then it was near the classrooms. So she made

some big changes and they were no longer the most unhappy. She also set up with

the faculty, so that each year, each faculty member would get ten students, whom

they would keep in touch with for three years, so that when their letters went out

for recommendations it was personal, and knowing the student rather than just she

was in my class and she did well.

That's a great idea.

And the faculty were all willing to do it.

Tape break.

Now, we're just commenting about the fact that you had only one friend whose

mother worked.

Right. I had no friends whose mothers worked. I mean they thought work was

cooking, doing Girl Scouts, doing volunteer work at the Newton Hospital, but

nobody had a paying job that I knew, except the one.

And what did her mother do?

Her mother was a doctor.

Impressive.

A pediatrician. One friend.

It's shocking.

It is shocking.

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Tape break.

Let's record this. Ok we are now looking at a story on page 5 of the second

interview, and you're going to tell us more about this story with Bob Gelfman

who you say is now a senior partner in a major New York law firm.

Before we got to law school, we got a little case which involved buying and

selling a house. The agreement, which we got in the mail, said that the sale would

not go through if the house was destroyed by an act of God. The night before the

sale was supposed to go through, the house was struck by lightning and destroyed.

And the issue for the first case in property was did the deal go through? Bob says

no, because the house was destroyed by lightning and that is an act of God. And

the property teacher asked him, what is an act of God? An act no reasonable man

thinks God would do or an act no reasonable God would do? And I got lost. I just

didn't know what to do with that answer. But then I found out neither did

anybody else. But when he first gave that answer, Bob Gelfman looked at me and

I said, "I don't know what to do", and he didn't volunteer the first year after that.

Too challenging. Not answerable.

Not answerable. But yes, it is answerable. It is an act of God. It's an act over

which people don't have any control.

Not answerable as posed.

Right.

Tape break.

And you just said you thought Bob's answer was perfect.

Tape break.

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Let's talk about this again, because we' re gong back to the Dean speaking to

Harvard Law School's women students?

Yes, Harvard Law School.

Oh, I'm sorry, speaking to Harvard Law School. And this is the Dean Griswold of

the Harvard Law School?

Yes.

And you just told me, let's just put it on tape. I asked you if that was helpful.

I don't know, it was a horrible dinner. All the Dean said was that we'd be lucky to

get any job in law, even as a secretary.

Tell me about that. How did you react to that?

Women were so furious, and even today when they've had women at Harvard for

60 years, 55 years, the one thing they do when they have one night when the

women can talk is complain about Dean Griswold. What was interesting about the

Dean, is when they voted to admit women, the faculty was equally divided, and

though he did not want women, he voted to admit women.

This was Dean Griswold at that time?

Yes.

Why did he do that?

Because we were the only national law school not admitting women.

He did it because it was good for Harvard, not because it was good for the

women?

Right. Harvard's reputation must have been suffering, because every other

national law school had women. Every other one.

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And the admission of women was just a few years before you came. Is that right?

I was the fourth class.

That's right.

And the snobbery of Harvard was that in the bulletin of the book describing

Harvard Law School for people who wanted to apply, there was a footnote that

said "Harvard admits a limited select number of women." They didn't say that

about men. And when you looked at the admission policy after a while, you saw

that at the beginning they admitted Radcliffe graduates. When asked about it, the

faculty said we can trust Harvard's ratings. Now, they trusted every man's

college in the country. They didn't trust women's colleges. They trusted

Wellesley a little bit, Smith. but basically they didn't trust women's colleges.

This is the admissions booklet?

Right. I mean it's nutty. It's absolutely nutty.

Tape break.

OK, we're back at Harvard Law School where there were four sections.

In my class, 13 women were admitted, 9 graduated. 2 transferred to other

colleges, especially Columbia, because you could get credit.

This is women we're talking about.

Women. All women. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was one of those women. She married

Marty Ginsburg and he was working in New York. She transferred to Columbia

and then Harvard would not credit the Columbia year, so she got a Columbia

degree. And she talks about it every time she comes to Harvard Law School, and

they have given her an honorary degree, but she still says they wouldn't give her

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credit. When she was coming from Columbia to Harvard, they wouldn't credit the

Columbia year. Now, they were no better than Columbia.

And do I get that they regret that?

No, because they - of course. But that is what happened. She had to go to New

York with her husband and baby, and they couldn't see clear to give her credit for·

her year at Columbia and let her graduate with her Harvard Law School class.

You didn't, or did you ever overlap with her at Harvard?

No. She was behind me.

Tape break.

So now we' re at the top of page 18 and we' re talking about a case in which you

were with the voluntary defenders, and the judge said this is not a federal case. I

won't rule on this motion.

I had moved in one of the motions to separate the other case and my client, these

proceedings from the juveniles, whom she had used to steal. So I filed 17

motions and the Judge rejected every single motion from me. And at the end, the

judge acquitted - it was not a jury trial - the judge acquitted my client and

adjudicated all the kids as juvenile delinquents. When I went downstairs my

mother was waiting, I didn't have a car, and I introduced the defendant to my

mother. After she left, my mother said don't introduce me to people like that. I

don't want to meet them. She said, is that what you are going to do? Get all the

terrible people off? Is that what they teach you at Harvard? This was as a

Voluntary Defender.

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This was a case with a voluntary defender. And, now this was a regular case. This

is a voluntary law school group. They didn't have lawyers assigned to them then.

No lawyers till '63.

Tape break.

We're now at the bottom of page 19, and we're going to talk about when you

were in the DA's office.

Right. They used to run a list the first Monday of the month, and they'd put on all

the cases that were going to go on. The judge was coming was named Judge

Hudson. He was a tough sentencer and very irascible. So, a lot of the cases on the

list had pled during the week and especially on the Friday before he came. Well in

the first case that was on the list, I said that pled on Friday. And the judge started

yelling at me about not notifying him and keeping cases on the list when they'd

been disposed of and not adding any cases. I think at the end he realized I was the

only woman there with 300 lawyers there, and he was yelling at a woman. So he

walked off the bench. He then called for a court officer to bring me into the lobby,

and he said to me - he asked me, who was responsible for the list? And I thought,

I better say I am, because otherwise he' 11 bring in somebody else. So I said I was.

He walked off the bench, he called for the court officer to bring me into the lobby,

and he said I admire the fact that you took responsibility for the list. I know you

didn't do it. I know who does the list.

We're now on the second side of the tape of Ruth Abrams on October 22nd and

you were just describing the judge was

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And he said I know you don't do it. I know the assistants don't prepare the list,

but I admire the fact that you were willing to take responsibility. He said if you do

your job, we'll get along all month. And the DA's office was so happy, they

wouldn't let me get out of the first session for anything. They just kept going,

"you stay there. just stay there."

Now, it would have been nice if he would have apologized to you in front of the

people who he was yelling at you in front of.

No. He wouldn't. Not even a remote possibility. Not even a remote one. But the

lawyers were happy, because he wasn't yelling at anybody because I was there.

And he was kind of happy that I was there.

You were the one taking it.

Yes, but he didn't yell at me the rest of the month. And other DAs, ifwe made a

mistake, which happened all the time, they didn't get yelled at either as much. So

it was all the attorneys.

OK, let's go to you.

I thought this was kind of cute. There was a little training that we had as a mock

trial that we did for people like the League of Women Voters.

This is when you were in the DA's office?

Right. And we had this little mock trial, and that's what they thought training was.

They saw these mock trial cases.

Then at the bottom of page 20.

Yes. And I had interviewed the daughter of the witness. And on the cross

examination of the witness, the lawyer asked her, did you talk to anyone from the

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DA's office, any assistant DA? And she said, no. So then he said, well didn't you

talk to Ruth Abrams? And she said, I didn't know she was an ADA. So there were

lots of people who really didn't understand that women were also the lawyers.

So this is a story about when you are still in the DA's office?

Right. And I was trying violations and ordinances which carried a $35.00 dollar

fine. It was in June of 1964. It was so hot. Most state offices were not air

conditioned, so if it were 90 degrees or above, the government closed. I had a

case in which students were charged with selling food without a license at a ban

the bomb rally. I had two witnesses. I told the judge at about 1 :30, the case

would be over in 25 minutes. The judge was Judge Vallely who had about 8 or 10

kids and I said we have students who are graduating or whose diplomas were held

up until this is cleared off their record. And some were coming back, so we've got

to get rid of the case this year. I told the judge "I promise you my case won't take

more than 15 minutes." I said I have the clerk who says they had no license, and

the police officer who said he was served coffee and donuts. So he said that's all?

And I said that's all. I put my case in. Then the defense counsel took over. He

did not file a motion for directed verdict. I saw the judge write "not guilty" on the

verdict slip right when I rested. I had taken 15 minutes to put the two witnesses

on, and some sort of list that said donuts were free. The defense counsel, who

was young, started to present his case. And he had his defendants - two of the

defendants went on the stand to say how horrible the bomb was, and the United

States should stop building bombs. And I objected, I said that's not the issue, and

the judge said I'm going to let him go on for a little bit. And he went on for

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almost an hour, and I could see the judge was getting angry, because it was at

least a hundred ten degrees in the courthouse. The young lawyer then finishes his

case at ten after 3:00, almost an hour after I finished, and he then says to the

judge, you can't find them guilty. There's a case in West Texas. And he went on

it and asked, do you want the citations? The judge said, no. He then went on a

lengthy explanation of the case, filled with with citations. I'm watching the judge

and I see him cross off the word 'not' on the verdict slip. Usually I say to watch

the judge as well as the lawyer, because how you're doing may often depend on

how he looks, especially when he's maybe going your way. So usually I say,

watch what's going on with the jury, with the judge, so you know what's

happening. It's a very important part of the trial process. So, that's all of it.

Great. Now we're on the top of page 22.

We're on the top of page 22. Marijuana was a major felony in the early 60s. You

would get somebody who has marijuana cigarette and the juries would acquit

them. The juries were all not as good on drunk driving then, because they would

say there for the grace of God or how is he going to get to work? Mostly men

were arrested for drunk driving at that time. Now public awareness is much better.

But at that time, it was fine to try these cases, because if you got a not guilty, it

was just numbers that flowed through the court, because jurors would find people

not guilty. They felt marijuana's not that serious. And they were also saying

drunk driving is not that serious. That has changed. It's different now and there is

a very high ratio of convictions of drunk driving. And marijuana, if you have a

certain amount under it, it's not civil, it's nothing.

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Tape break.

You were going to say occasionally?

I was second chair on a lot of cases. But they didn't increase the staff and the

population grew, so we had 52 cities and towns were growing so everybody was

working full time. So the legislature then made it a full time job. And there we

went from 3,000 dollars a year to $10,000. It's unbelievable.

Tape break.

On page 44 you talk about the judge who didn't let you in the lobby at all.

And he always wanted court officers in the lobby, he said just like the MDs had in

their examining room. Which I don't understand. And then I said to the judge,

nobody else can try the case. And I think that the court officer and there was a

court clerk, both told him that I had tried other cases.

Did the judge or judges who wanted to have the court officers in the lobby, was

that just when you were there?

Just when women were.

Just when women were there. And the theory was that later you would accuse

them of being something improper?

Yes.

Now I'm speechless. That escaped me before.

It's stupefying. The judge would put little curtains on the jury box

Tape break.

And they objected to the pants suits. You said that judges said something to you

about pants suits?

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Yes. They would say, you're dressed improperly for the courtroom. Dressed

improperly.

And what would you say?

Well I didn't wear pants suits. But Katherine Izzo said "this is a perfectly

respectable article of clothing. "

Good for her. And did the judge back down?

Yes, he backed down, but it is a generational thing -- what is acceptable.

Right

Tape break.

We are back on page 27 when you are talking about your being asked to do

appeals work and you say there was a lack of interest

By men.

In doing appeals work. Why do you think that was?

They were using it to get jobs and trial experience was a plus.

You mean get jobs in private sector.

In the private sector. And at that time criminal fields didn't have much cache.

And were there predominantly women then in the appeals division?

Yes, and in the DA' s office and public defenders.

And do you think that is still true somewhat?

Yes, but I think men are willing to do it now. I think women do it more, because

men still like to try. They still want the experience of trying cases. That is where

many of them want to make their living.

But don't you think that women want that now too. As opposed to the old days?

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I do. The thing for women about appeals is with the computer you could do them

at home, if you have children. It's a much better way. You can take the briefs

home, you can take the transcripts home, you can write a brief from home.

Plus, it's more regular hours than

Only when the brief is due. Then regular hours go right out the window.

That's true. You're right.

But they can do part of it at home, because the computers are now so

programmed, that they can get to the citations and - really, you don't need

secretaries to type it. So you can do it.

Tape break.

So, we are talking about Ropes & Gray now on page 30 and not making Ruth

Bryant a partner.

They did make Ruth a partner after Marilyn Sullivan left.

Marilyn Sullivan went on the bench.

She was a land court judge.

In fact she was head of the land court.

She was indeed.

We are in the fourth interview session. We are talking about when you applied to

the Superior Court, you talked to your governor's counselor.

They told me they have to have your governor's counselor, because he would be

the lead on my nomination. He said, "with your experience you will know what to

do with an overdue library book." Which shows you how important the district

courts are. They worry about where overdue library books go, not the SJC.

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An odd comment for the SJC.

But telling as to where in fact in the judicial system, power lies - in the District

Court, not a doubt about it.

This is the end of the second side of this tape.

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