- 816 -

HOUSE OF A&SEMBLY,

Ma.rch 21st, 1957.

QUESTIONS PUT BY MEMBERS:

MR. HICKS:

Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a

qu 'Stion - if I may be excused for standing beside

my place instead of at it, something has happened

to the arrangements and I can't get my feet under

. the desk - I woulci like to address a question to

the Pr~mier in his capacity as Provincial Treasurer.

Did the Provincial Treasuror provide a

private company named the Caterpillar Company with

information as to the highway estimates of Nova

Scotia so_ that they could be included in an ad-

vertisement in the current issue of MacLean's

Magazine, which has been on the news stand for

some days, and of course prior to the Budget Speech

in this House, and prior to the tabling of the Ca­

pital Estimates which we have not yet seen?

THE-PREMIER:

No, Mr. upeaker, no information was pro­

vided to that firm, or any firm, or anyone else about

the Highways Estimates of the province (Applause).

MR. HICKS:

Then, Mr~ ~peakar, does the Provincial

· Treasurer know how ·the information in the advertise­

ment referred to came to their knowledge? ~-

THE PkOOER:

Mr. cpeake r , I am not familiar with the

advertisement to which my honourable friend refers, )

and I have no info:nnation as to how such information

may have been obtained. I am not familiar with the f

advertisement to which my honourable friend refers.

- 817 - March 21st, 1957,

MR. HICKS:

One more question, Mr. Speaker. Would the

honourab~e the Provincial Treasurer made such. inquir­

ies as may be necessary to inform himself of the con­

tents of this advertisement, and then mal<;e_ such ex~

planation as he thinks the public is entitled to?

PREMIER STANFIELD:

I certainly will, Mr. Speaker.

MR. FIELDING:

Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a ques­

tion to the Provincial Treasurer. Is the Provincial

Treasurer or the government authorizing any'further

commitments from the Special Reserve Fund of the

province than those that had been made prior to on

the 20th day of November, 1956.

PREMIER ST~NFIELD: Mr. Speaker, speaking £rom memory, I think

the only further withdrawal of anything from the

Special Reserve Fund would be in connection with the

Unsatisfied Judgment Fund. Speaking from memory, I

wouldn't attempt to give the amount. But I will be

glad to get that information for my honourable friend.

MR, FIELDJ;NG: In the previous year it was $40,000.

HR, NUNN: Mr, Speaker, I should like to direct a ques­

.. tion to the Honourable Minister of Trade and Industry: I

Ia it correct that an official of his department sent

a telegram, on or about March 18, 1957, to some or all

of the weekly newspapers in the province in an attempt

to prevent the publication of material f'orwarded to

such newspapers by oneJ Earl Clark?

J.. ..

ffON, MR, MANSON:

Ml'! 5peaker, in reply to the ~uestion, I

might say that I do not know, but I heard that such

a thing had been happening, but I haven't had a chance to check on it.

818 -

March 21st 195?.

km• NUNN

If such a telegram was sent, was it sent with

the authority of the Minister?

. HON MR MliliciON

No, definitely not.

MR. NUNN :

One more supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

would the Minister consider tabling the telegram, or

giving the House any information of the circumstances

as to why such action took place, if it did take place? HON.MR. MANSON

Yes • . MB· MICHAEL MACDONALD I would like to address a question to the

honourable Minister of Mines. In view of the rumours

that have been coming in for the last couple of years,

regarding the closing of No 25 Mine, I should like to

ask the Minister if any officials of the Dominion Coal

Company h·vo discussed this m~tter with him or any

officials of his department?

ijON MR MANJON :

In answer to the honourable member from Cape

Breton, I might say that I have had one conference with

the General Manager of the Dominion Ooal Company on this

matter, and also a conference with the Secretary Treasurer

of the U.M.W. A further conference is contemplated in

the very near future.

AN HON MEMBER-: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question

to the Minister of Lands and Fore ate. · Does the Minister

of1 Lands and Forests intend to introduce legislation thia

session repealing the ~mall Tree Act?

- 819 ...

March 21st .1957.

HON. MR. LEVY :

The answer is "no".

Hlt• COWAN

Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a· question to the honourable the Provincial Treasurer. Are the figures which appear in this mo~ning's Halifax Ghronicle­

Herald, as being excerpts shown in a return by Fdriance

Minister Harris in the House of Commons, reflected in the Estimates which '~ ·1 were presented to the House yesterday by the Provincial Treasurer ?

THE PREMIER . . Well, Mr. Speaker, the answer to my honour-

able friend's question is in the Estimates themselves. ·The amount estimated as the grant from Ottawa, under

the Government of Canada tax rental payment, the amount

set forth is $27,325,000. plus Statutory Subsidies of

$2,056,837.

I may say, Sir, that we have received different

figures from time to time in this connection. Some months

ago we were given. a higher.._ figure than this. Then this

varied in view of certain information which had come for- \

ward, I think with respect to population • The figure

. quoted in the Estimates would be the last official com­

putation which we received from Ottawa as to what the

province would be receiving next year.

$2 7, 3 2 5 , 000.

Mfi• COWANi

The figure of . I

Mr. ~peaker, may I ask a supplementary question? ~

The figures which appeared in this morning's newspaper

indicate that the tax1rental payment will be some $625,000

higher than the figure shown on Page 6 of the Estimates.

TH~ PREMIER ?:m: COWAN:

confim this ?

My honourable friend makes a statement?

I wonder if the Provincial Treasurer could f

n:

. f ;

,·•r),··, ·,

•· • 820 -

March 21st, 1957

THE FREMIEfi:

1,rell, I can't confirm what is in the pre:u~,

Mr. Speaker. We will, of course, get ih touch with

Ottawa to see if there is any change in the plan as

reported to us. lfe will certainly be delighted if

we are to receive ,600,000 further. (Applause.)

MR. COl·!AN:

Mr. Speaker, the same item in this morning's

paper indicated that the Statutory Subsidies that

should be expected to be received, amount to ~2,560,000.

I should like to ask the Provincial Treasurer· whether

that figure corresponds to the same item shown in the

Estimates on page 6, as t~2 ,056, 837?

THE PREMIER:

Well, yes, Mr. Speaker, all I can do is con­

firm that the figure in the Estimates for Statutory

Subsidi~s which has been the same, as my honourable

friend can see, for some time, is t2,056,B37. And

we have received no official word that there is going

to be any change in that connection, but again every

body will be perfectly delighted if that subsidy is

going to be increased. And we will of course, check

to see if that information is correct • As I say, Mr.

Spea~er, I would be very surprised if the l·:inister of

Finance made a public statement involving an-increase

in the Statutory Subsidies without some information

being gi v_en to the province in advance.

•' 'I.

1.

' I

,/

- 821

March 2let, 19 57 •.

· MR .. MICHii.i;;L Hl.CD\..H.u.D:

,.r:>eaker .. ' if I may be permitted to ask

a ~urther question of the Honourable Linistcr of Hines:

If he would care to maka e statement regarding ~hat

conferences have been carried on so far or would he

prefer to loave it until ~pril 30th. raJErding the

closin3 down of No. 25 mine? !/)'

HON e Mh. MJ.i.NSON:

I am at.t empt.Ln , to arr-angc ano ther confer­

ence and I dont t think it woula acr ve any good pur­

pose to release any discussion one way or anoth~r.

~. NICHOLSON:

Mr. ~peaker, I should lika to address a

question to t he honourable t.he Minister of P.ighways:

Is 1:r. Bruce-t.Ll.Li.eme an emp Loye e of the Department

of Highways, and if so, what is his position. z.nd

is ha s position one ·that was c rcat ed since the 20th

day of November 1956?

HON. MR •. SI•UTH:

The answer to the first of those three

quostions, if I followed them rightly; Lr. Bruce-

- 1. illiams is an employee of the Department of High-

- ways.

The answer to the second is that his of­

ficial.title is Departmental Executive 0fficer, or . I

J.dministrative Officer, I huv~ forgotten which of

the, two.

...nd the third is that that ha s bean a

clPssificltion t~1~t hc s bean k~wn to the Civil

Service for some very considerable time prior. to the i

20th dey of Novt:m1ber.

. I

- 622 -

March 21st,, 1957 • . .

MR. NICHOLSON:

Mr. Speaker-, a supplementary question.

Who was the former incumbent of that position?

MR. SMITH:

So far as I am aware there is no former

incumbent of the particular position in the sense

that Mr. Bruce-Williams displaced anyone, if that

is what the honourable gentleman means. (Laughter).

MR. HARDING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question

of the Honourable ~dnister of Highways. Tur.ning to

the report tabled a few days ago with regard to high­

ways in the province ready or near ready for paving,

I was very disappointed to- learn that no roads in

the County of Shelburne were slated fer paving, or

said to be ready or near ready.

I would like to ask the honourable Minister

if the fact that no roads were ready or near ready, .. it may be the idea that no roads will be paved next

year through the county of Shelburne? II

HON, MR. &MITH: Oh, no. Mr. Speaker, the answer is that if

there are no roads ready for paving in Shelburne

County, tlllt is because my predecessor in office did .1

not do the necessary work to make them ready. (Hear!

Hear! · and Applause), The answer to the second part

of ~he question is that I hop~ that.)Shelburne County

will not feel the great neglect which has obviously

been its lot in the past, (Hear! HearJ and Applause).

MR, FIELDING:

Would the Minister of Highways answer a

furt:;ier question with respect to roads that are not

on his list. I

Do I understand the Minister now to I/

.(

- 823 -

March 21st, _19 57.

MR. FIELDING cont ' d,:

undertake that ther. aro roads in Shelburne not­

withstanding that they are not on ·the list, and will

give the same consideration to roeds requiring at­

tention in other countries of tho province? (Uproart).

HuN. MR. SMITH:

My honourable friend asked severai argu­

mentative questions, and I shaL), endeavour to answer

without argument, mare Ly by saying that, in the

course of my duty, I hope th ... t I shall be able. to

give proper attention to all the roads which need

such attention within tho limits of the resources

available to me. (Heart Heart and hpplausa).

MF~. NICHOLSON:

Hr. opeak er,- may I direct a furthor ques­

tion to the 1ianister of Highways concerning the De­

partment J-.dm.inistrati vo Officer: v.as Hr. ~villiams

appointed to his office through the regular Civil

, Service channels? (Laughter).

HON. !,ffi •. SMITH:

Mr. Bruce-,:illiams was appointed to that

office through the Civi~ Service Commission, if

that. is wh&t the honourable gentloman means.

,I

- 824 - March 21st l9S7.

MR• NICHOLSON :

Were there any other applicants for the

position ? (Laughter) •

HON MR. SMITH:

Indeed, I could safely say that there were

many applicants for the position.

(Medley of voices at the end of. which Honour-

able Mr .• Smith was heard to say about road lists "But

I can assure the honourable gentleman that there would

be no great difficulty to assemble an opposing loss of

several score."

AN HON N2.MBER :

I would like a question, Mr. Speaker, through

you to .the Minister of Highways ; Will the Minister say

that the roads are paved that were ready or nearly by his

predecessors, that have not found their way into the list

such as was tabled in th is House ?

HON MR. t>MITH :

If there are any such roads, I will seek the

advice of those who are qualified to pass judgment upon

such matters, and then give such cases, if there are any,

the consideration which I am able to under the circumstances.

IHE PRll-IIlR :

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition asked

a question relating to this advertisement, which might have

iiven the impression that the statement.disclosed advance

knowclejge of secret and confidentual information.

I m!ght say that the advertisement purports

to set Out estimates, in the wqrds of ~he ad "The

current Budget Estimate, plans and problems of each

prov!noie~' and it sets forth for Nova Scotia $24,400,000.

lt goes on to say how much of this budget will

be used to maintain 15,000 of provincial roads.

., \ i ' .

- 825 -

· March 21st,. 1~57.

tHE·PREMIER cont'd;

It went on:

"There will, however, be continued con­

centration on riew bridges and s13ctions of highway

adjacent to thorn."

Now, Mr. 0peako~, I hava no knowledge

how the draftors of that advertisem~nt madG thoir

computation. It doGs not disclose any knowledge

of the amounts allocated to tho maintenanco of the

roads, and it purports to be an estimate of how

much will be available for maintenance and to

capital expenditures.

It is not, in the first place, I may say,

accurate. J.nd I certainly have no knowledge how

it inay be computed. But I will certainly assure my

honourable friends that I will make onquiries and

track :irt down to satisfy myself, and thun report

to the House how the figure was made up. (Applause).

AN HON • MEr-IBER :

Mr. ~puaker, f~r once I might be able

to .give some information, not to the honourable

members opposite - I

SOM§ Hu N • MEJ~m~;JRS :

Orderl Orderl

PRIVATE BILLS FOR SECOND READING: Bill No.. 57. · Society for the Preventim of

qruelty.

I.,

r

- 8,26 -

March 21st, 1'957 •

. - PRIVATE BILLd FOR SECON~ RE~DING:

CONT'D:

Mh.. HICKS:

Mr. Spe~ker, does the ~ociety in question

not have the ri6ht to do, at a certain timo, what

this amendment purports to givo it tho right to do?

!JON. MR .DONhHOE:

Mr. dpeaker, I will answer my honourable

friend, through you, Mr. ~peaker. This Bill, which

is a measure I introduced, was prepared by the So­

ciety and by its solicitors and which received the

approval of the Legislativ~ Counsel after the draft

was presented.

I hava not made any personal inquiry to

find out as to.whether the power was already pres­

ent but I was satisfied and a ssumed that the .:,o- -

ciety felt it did confer upon it a powar which it

did not alraady have.

My recollection of it, ,_r. opeaker , is that

it does amend the time limit. It may well be that

the Society had the powor to do the things which

this ·amendment gives it power to do, but that

there ar~ some changes in it with respect to the

time within which these thL1gs may be done. That

is my recollection of tho explanation.

I think rny honourable f'r i.end will note .- that the Society shall "no't within five days after

notice" - and I think that thore was a longer period

of notice previously, and that the effect on the So­

ciety was th.::t they were required to maintain these

birds and animals for a long period, and then were I ,

- _827 -

March 21st, 19$7.

Mn. DONAHOE - cont'd:

not able -to recoup themselves when they did eventu-

ally dispos~ of the animal.

By shortening the period it was felt that

no great hardship would be done to anybody, and tho

6ocietJ would be able to operate at less cxpense ,

, And if the animals are- to be disposed of the sum

realized will come ne~rer to paying the maintenarice

cost during the waiting period.

MR .. HICKS:

v:ell, l1r •. Speaker, t he rc is no 'quest Ion

that t he society, in order to carry out its purposes,

ought to have some of its powers subject to curtain

controls or the Society will do something wrong.

My only concern is that I heve from time

to time seen within the last months, newspaper re­

~orts of tha society's activiti~s along these lines

and I have reason to believe th&t some of them have

led to some dispute.

~o that this is a mattor of public interest,

and I presume th(1.t the committee to which Your Honour

refers this bill, will go into these matters rather

carefully. I hope Your Honur will not think it pre­

swnptious of me to suggest that in my view an amend­

ment of this kind so affects the public ·1aws that it

ought- properly to be eealt with by the Committee on Law

Amendments.

HON, MR. DONAHOE;

Mr. ~peakor, I would like to add only one

word to what has be~~ said, and that is·that the

proposers of this measure inclicatdd to me at the

time wh9n JI was r-eque at.ed to introduce the. bill that

828

· March 21st, 1957.

HON •. MR. DONAHOE - cont'd:

they would be happy to appear before the appropriate

committee of the Legislature and give full and ade-·

quate explanations of thGir request.

GOVbRNMENT I',1uTIONS:

MR. DONAHOE: - Mr , Speak or, I beg Lea ve to tablo, pursuant

to Section 50 of the Judicaturo .ct, 1950, amendments

to the nul~s of the Suprem~ Court made by the Judges of

the Supreme Court on tho 3rd day of February, 1957.

I might make an observation about them which

~ thought might be of interest to members of the House,

because the Legislative Counsel, who prepared those

for tabling and handed th6m to me, put a foot note on

them l thought the members might be interested in.

He says, "You may be Lnt.o rust.ed to know that

Section 50 provides also thct if an address of the

House to the Lieutenant Governor, praying that any such

rules be cancelled, is presented withi~ 20 days after. the

rules are tabldd, the Governor-in-Council may annul ~ny

rules so tabled."

I mention that by way of a bit of interesting

information, and I would certainly hope that my observa- ' . tion would no~ be construed as an invitation to any of

this House to accept the provisions put forth and annul

the Judges' regulations, (Laughter). - 'l' J\BLfill.

he know your constitutional rightsl (Laughter).

829 - March 21st 1957.

PUBLIC BILL6 FOR SECOND R~ADING

Bill 56.

HON MR. DONAHOE :

Mr. ~peaker, I move that this Bill be now

The Dental Act.

read a second time. I want to make one or two brief

observations about it. I'ho purpose of this amendment

is in my opinion one of the very worthwhile and laudible

ones.

It has been the requirement under the Dental

Act of this province that persons wishing to practice

. dentistry in the provinco before be i ng permitted to do

so were first required to pass what I think is known

as ' the Dominion Board examinations.

It has been felt for some time that that works

an unnecessary hardship on the graduates of our own ~reat

university here because, having completed their time,

having graduated and received their Degrees in dentistry,

they then must necessarily elapse a short period of time

before the Dominion Dental Board examinations are available

~o thoso graduates, and then when those examinations have

been written there is still a further lapse of time, which

haa meant, I understand, that young men graduating in this

profession have been required to wait as long as two months

before being able legally to take up their profession.

The effect of this amendment would be to

eliminate that and it would permit a person who is a .

graduate of our university here to take up the profession

of dentistry without waiting, that is irr4spective of

whwther or not he makes application to write the Dominion ,I

Board exams. It in no way prevents the person from

writing the Dominion Board. A dentist wishing to qualtfy

him3elf, to gain whatever oualification goes e l on« w1 th

tho passing of the Dominion Board examinations, may do so,

and undoubtedly most will.

- 830 -

March 21st, 1957.

fYBL,c ·atLLS FOR SECOND READ'!NG:

HON. MR. DONAHOE:

But it is rather hoped that this may be a

means of inducing some graduates of that university,

who might otherwise consider moving away, to settle

in this province and to take up their profession, and

I am advised by officials in my department that there

is a very.crying need for additional dentists in this

area. And that it is the purpcae-of the Bill, .to

make it easier for these men to enter the profession

in this province and to remove from them the necessity

of waiting until they can qualify under the Dominion

Board exami~ations.

I think I might just say in closing that

the effect of it will be very similar to the proced­

ures which are followed by the Barristers' Society

and by the Medical Society, because graduates in

Law and Medecine are already in the position in which

this amendment seeks to put the dental graduates.

M[t1 HICKS:

Mr. Speaker, inay I ask a question? And the

question is - do the dentists of this province through

their society request or favor support of this amend~

ment?

HQN, MR1 DONAHOE:

I can't answer that question, Mr. Speaker, D

wi.th any degree of accuracy. For the honourable

member's information, the amendment. was di~cussed with

me by the head of the 0ental service, within the de-

partment. ,.~, My recollection is that he gave me to

- 831 -

March 21st, 1957.

HON. MR DONAHOE:

.-,- understand that the legislation had the approval of the

Dental Society, but I wouldn't like to make an unqual­

ified statement that that is so.

MR. HICKS:

I merely, Mr. Speaker, was·pointing out that

while the purposos outlined bv the r~inis'cer of Public

Health are in themselves, as far as they go, most com­

mendable, the danger - human nat ui-e being what it is,

Mr. Sp~aker - that dentists may neglect to write their

Dominion Council examinations, thereby giving to the

profession in this prov~nce a status different from

that which they would receive throughout Canada.

But that's all right. Certainly I have

no brief for the dentists as such, though I think

it is a bit naive to hope that by passing this leg­

islation, we are going to attract some dentists in

Nova Scotia who might go elsewhere.

While what the honourable Minister ·of Health

has said is true with respect to the legal and medical

professions, we also know that in his profession and

mine, when he or I wish to practice elsewhere, we have

to comply with a different set of complications which I

sometimes may be quite troublesome, which for doctors

and dentists, if they write their Council examinations,

is looked after automatically. ·

However, that is a matter for the dentists ' th~mselves and so long as they are not opposed to it,

I don't suoT'ose the members of this House,'Mr. Speaker,

need worry too much about it.

I ,

- 832 -

· March 21st, 1957.

HON. MR. DONAHOE:

Just one word if I may, Mr. Speaker, and· ·

that is this; That while it is quite true that a

dentist who writes the Dominion Board qualifies there­

by to practice in any province in Canada, it doesn't

necessarily follow that even in that profession he can

freely and voluntarily move from one province to another

and practice.

Le~ally he is qualified, but what ha~nens in

practice is that there are transfer fees required by the

various provincial Dental SocietioSJ very at mf Lar-t.t o

the transfer fees which are required for example by

the various pr6vincial Law qocieties. So that in

theory he can practice anywhere he is qualified as

such, but iri practice he has to meet requir~ments

or· thelocal associations just as they do in the other

professions.

Referred to Committee on Law Amendments •

. THE PRE1'·:IER:

r.ir. Stanfield,·! move that you do now

leave the Chair and_the House resolve itself into

$ Committee of the ''1hole House on Supply.

,1 •

1. ... \'.

...

·l

832-A - '

March 21st, 1957.

1~. R.M •. F'IELDING: ·

llr. upeakor, I should like to congratulate

the new Premier and Provincial Treasurer upon tha ~ood

fortune t ha t befell him on takin6 over the Government

of this Province that h e found, first, an overflowin6

. Treasury; and secondly, in. preparing his e st.Ime t.o s for the

comi ng f'Lsca.l year ho f'cunc t het , thanks to the successful

negotiations of tho precedin0 Government in the Dominion­

Provincial conferences, Nova 0cotia woul~ receiv~, as he

expressod it in round fi&urcs, ~6,000,000. additional pay­

ments under the new agreement. Those two facts clearly

emerge from tho doc umorrt.s submitted to this House by the

Provincial Treasurer.

The third important fact in considerin; Pro­

vincial~ finance is the exist~~ce of the ~pecial Reserve

Account in which ne&rly ~ b,Ooo,ooo. is av~ilable for tho

purposes for which that fund was est.ab Hahe d , as set out

in the statute, the first and prim£ry Jurposo boinJ, and

.( q.io t e : ••To meet, any deficit shown in t he audited state­

ment of revenue and expe ndf t ure of the Province for any

fiscal year , ''

The fourth si.;nificant fact is that a deficit for

the current fiscel year ondiag I1arch 31, 1957, of what-

aver amount , oven t he latest -~uess by the Provincial

Treasurer in the' interim statumont which he tabled of 1 //

.~ 4,483,65')., (Set out on p~.;:;e 10 of that Intorim State-

ment) is far less than the provision against a deficit care­

fully maf.nt.afncd by t he l.Lck ' s administration. That there

ma:. be no mt st ake as~ o tho sum availablt in tho· ;jpGcial

fi.o aer ve Account.

- 833 -

March'2lst 1957,

MR. R.M. FIELDING.

I would ask members of the House to refer to

the Statement of Special Reserve Account for the Fiscal

year ending 31st March, 1956, on Page 40 of the Public

Accounts of th? Province tabled by the Provincial Treasurer.

Page 40 sets out: "Balance as .of 31st March, 1956, $6, 006, 770. 83 ii •

HON. MR, HALIBURTON

Mr. 3peaker, might I ask the honourable gentle­

man a question? In tabling those accounts did the then

Provincial Treasurer say that the Bluenose and the cost of

the Canso Causeway came out of this account?

MR. FISLDING : ,

No, indeed, Mr. bpeaker, the particular

)6,000,000. has no reference whatever to that - the Special ·.r,.

Reserve Account did provide - it contained at one time

around iJo,000,000. - for many previous expenditures

including the two that my honourable friend mentioned.

HON. }l.ffi. HALL.iUHTON :

Mr. Speaker, he did not answer my question.

Those bills that the province has to pay are not paid, so

there is ·a separate, or a special account, set up to pay them.

MR, FIJ;LOING i

\/ell, Mr. Speaker, I can answer my honourable

friend if he will turn to rage 41 of the Public Accounts, he

will see there the sum that has been there for years,

allotted from the Special Reserve Account to take care of

those very expenditures. And there is in addition to them,

that six million dollars clear.

Now, to that, Mr. dpeaker, I should like to add,

in accordance with the policy of the Provinqial Finance Act,

1

- S34 -

March 21st 1957.

MH. FUl,DING - cont'd ;

the surplus shown on Page 34 of Public Accoun:s where,

after making provision for transfer to the Public

Debt Retirement Fund of.)1,000,000. there was left a

surplus showing on that Page a "net revenue surplus for

the year of ~177, 931. 2211• Those two sums added to-

gether make a total of ~6,H:!4,702.05. From that sum

must be deducted the sums withdrawn' from the Special

- Reserve Account since the 31st March, 1956.

At November 20th, when the g.9vernment changed

hands, there had been only two such sums, namely $250,000.

for the Industrial Expansion Fund, and ~10,000 additional

provision for the Hurricane Edna Fund, leaving the sum of

$5,924,702.05 as of that date.

If from that is deducted the deficit forecast

in the Interim Statement of $4,483,659. (though I do not

for one moment think it will reach that figure) even de­

ducting that full estimate of deficit, -+here is left a

balance of $1,441,043,05. (Pounding oB desks and

applause).

There should be a further deduction on the

informatibn given to me to-day - in fact there was

reference to it when I spoke in the Throne Debate - one

of the provisions of the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund re-

_quires the Treasurer to meet the orders of the court and

any deficiency of the Fund should be paid out of Special

Reserve. That amount, while we are not clear about the

size, is the amount necessary to pay the sums ordered bet­

ween the 20th day df ~ovember and the 31st day of December, because after that the licensing starts for the calenqar

year and will take care of at least for tqe first eight,

nine or ten months of anything that may arise.

·•

- 835 -

·March 21st 1957.

That the_se th~ngs may be clearly set down in

figures, I have found it necessary to speak specifically

of the Special Reserve Account. I think that it was un-

f9rtunate that the Provincial Treasurer made no reference

to this account in what he. called an Interim Statement in

January. In hj_s speech in this House on the Budget, he

suggested that the presence ?f that Special Reserve Account was no justification for expenditures made by the previous

government.

In the result, Mr. dpeaker, it is clear that

at least 1,4 million dollars is on hand. As soon as the

deficit for the year ending March 31st, 1957 is determined

· th~ government can direct payment of that deficit out of the

Spe·cial Reserve, and there w:i.J.l be left a sum in excess of

1.4 million dollars. (Pounding of desks and applause),

That it what I meant, Mr. Speaker, when on the

Throne Debate I said, and I repeat to-day, that this govern-

ment came into office to find "an overflowing Treasury".

(Prolonged applause.

HON. MR. LEVY;

It would take a Sherlock Holmes to find· it \

MR. F'IBLDING : ' .. I·euspect that my honourable friend, the

Minister of Municipal Affairs, didn't know it, and that

the men who sit alongside him didn't either. (Hear~

" Heart and applause).

Well, Mr,. Speaker, I do think it might ha\re been

more appropriate if the Treasurer had been a little more·

generous in his compliments to the pr-e ced fng government

for having made such adequate provision against any

deficit that might occur. (Hear~ Heart and applause).

836

.March 21st ,1957.

MR. FIELDING - cont'd

"Gratefully," the Psalmist once said, "My '·

cup runne th over ~ 1'

THt: PRil\iiiR ,. '

~ill my honourable friend permit a question? I wonder what was in the cup?

zv:n. FL~LDING :

(Laughter} •

I can answer that question - ··'What was neede d'". (Laughter}.

Now, Mr~ Speaker, I should like to point out

somethine about the Interim Statement of Revenues and

Expenditures, and remind the House again of the four

things which I have pointed out in brief from the

government's Bujget.

The first, that there is an over-flowing

Treasury.

The second, that there is available to the

government now appro:ximately $6,000,000. and it will

increase over the five years under the new agreement

which was entered into - that was negotiated - by the

former government. The firm fact is that the Public

Accounts show clearly the existence of a Special Reserve

Account of nearly $6,000,000. and the point is that that

fund is adequate for the purpose of meeting any deficit I

that may be resulting from the operations of the two

'governments - the government of Henry Hicks, up until

the 20th November, and th.e government that has carried

on since that time, under the present Provincial Treasurer.

Now then, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the

government, the Provincial Treasurer, shows concern - and

I think one should give duo weight and consideration to

the fact - that he shows concern for over expendi:tures

- 837 -

March 21st 1957,.

MR. FIELDINp - cont'd

of' government.

I should like now to point out that the Interim

Statement of ordinary revenues and expenditures, tabled

in thjs House by the Provincial Treasurer is based~ as

he told us, on nine months actual expenditures and three

months estimated.

The nine months actual expenditures cover the

months of April 1st to December Jlst, 1956. You will

remember that it was on January 11th 1957, that the

Premier and Provincial freasurer made a public statement,

reported in the press, estimating that the deficit at

the end of the current fiscal year would be between three

and three and one-half million dollars.

Mr. Speaker, that was, I think, the first poor

guess.

Two months later, with the same nine months

of actual experience, and the three months, of estimate,

the Premier, the Provincial Treasurer, upped his estimates

by approximately ;1,000,000. That was, I think, the

second bad guess.

Nobody knows, or is able to determine, how ·

good or how bad things were until we have a audited

statement, and it is on that statement that we shall

.be able to judge, and not by. either the Provincial

Treasurer making his guess, or me .making mine.

I should like to discuss the Interim Statement

tabled, and we' 11·1find out that the rremier was out

ai,000,000 at least, in his calculations, on his own

record, and I think in fairness, I should say tha;t I do

not think it was wholly due to the excesses of his

- 838 -

March 21st 1957.

Yuh FliriLDING - cont'd

government since he assumed office.

HON. Mlt. LEVY

Oh, brother t

MR. FIElDING :

Now, Mr. Speaker, how can a government contrive

to build a deficit on ordinary revenue and expenditure

account? I shall sug~est five ways, and I see avid-

ence in the Interim Statement .that 'all five ways con­

tributed to the big deficit which the Provincial

Treasurer forecasts.

In the first place, Mr. Speaker, I suggested

that a government may by deliberate choice and under the

authority of the Provincial Finance Act, authorize in­

creased spending on public services which would reqtiire

more than the revenues available to it.

In modest measure, as I view it, the Hicks

government did that and the ~tanfield government has also

done it. It is a step which a government should only

take after due consideration of at least two factors:

First, is there a reserve against the deficit

available so that it does not have to be budgeted for

in the following year?

And, second, ie there an assurance of future

revenue which enables a government to consider the

urgent need of the public services and have some confidence 0 that they can be met in the days that are ahead? (Hear!

Hear t) u

Both these conditions obtained when the Hicks

3overnment authorized certain expenditures, such as

Jl,000,000 for education and Jl,500,000 for highways,

J300,ooo for the holding of a Provincial Election, and

.. - 8)9 March 21st 195?.

MR. FIELDING cont'd "'· I •

other smaller amounts mentioned by the Premier in hie

January broadcast.

And I may mention amongst them increases in

the salaries of Civil Gervants of the government which

became effective on the 1st June last, and t.o which the

Premier made some reference.in the Debate.

Mr. Speaker, we in the Hicks government had a

Spec~al Reserve ; we had an assured income for the next

five years of approximately $6,000,000 increase in each

of those succeedine years, with an undertaking on the part

of the Federal government that the annual payments should

never fall below that figure.

That is a change in the new agreement, as con­

trasted with the old, which gave a certain measure of

·. stability to provincial finances, and which was most

particularly due to the represent~tions of the Premier

of Nova Scotia at that time. (Applause).

I have discussed the forecast of deficit and I

s.uggest I am surely justified, under the circumstances

that I have set forth.

A second way in which a deficit may be created

by a government is a failure on the part of a Provincial

Treasurer to carefully restrain any effort by any depart-

. men1t to exceed the sums made available to it and to justify

any requests for any ~var-expenditure. I appreciate the

difficultYthat the Provincial Treasurer faced in this

tegard when a horde of hungry salesmen descended upon the

. offices of government and proceeded to demand compensation

for th~ir election efforts (Laughter and applause - Medley

of remarks).

Increasing inventory will affect the budget

·1

- 840 -

March 21st 1957.

~ifi. FIELDING - cont'd

position of the statement contained in the Interim Re­

port. We shall be able to determine only when ·the

Auditor's statement is down what increase in inventory

has been incurred. While that will be reflected in the

Balance Gheet as certified by the Auditors, it is not

directly reflected in the revenue and expenditures state-

ment.

If honourable members will turn to the Balance

Sheet contained on Page 32 of the Public Accounts you will

see as one of the assets listed the 0Inventory of Supplies".

We shall await the audited Balance 0heet for the

current fiscal year to see how far that inventory has been

increased bacapse of the importunity of the patronage seekers

that haunt the offices of the government. (Applause).

A third way in which a deficit. can be built up

is by waste and improvidnet expenditure. Let me suggest,

Mr. 3peaker, that the dismissal of, I calculate, more than.

one thousand road foremen in Nova Scotia and their replace­

ment by inexperienced men is bound to lead to some loss,

and increase the size of the deficit. (Loud applause).

Inasmuch as the chief over-expenditure is in

the Department of Highways, one readily sees how serious

this condition could be, and we shall await with interest

the audited Public Accounts, and make diligent enquiries

in regard thereto. (Applause).

A fourth way is by underestimating revenue in

the Interim statement and by ovor-es·timating expenditures

meaning those, which is accordance with lcng experience,

are expenditures that can reasonably be made.

My honourable friend is new to the work of the

Provincial Treasury, but I can confidently predict tha~

,- 841 -

March 21st 1957.

some of the departments that assured him that they need­

ed the provision. available to them will not be able, and

ought not to be allowed, to spend all the sums provided

for them in the estimates. (Applause}.

There are alwa vs aims- and purposes which were

in contemplation when estimates were made which cannot

· be carried into effect for one reason or another and over

·~·a considerable period of watching the !'ublic Accounts and

endeavouring as far as possible for a Minister to secure

an accurate estimate of the requirements of various de­

partments, I have learned to know that the actual exper~

ience is always that tho Departments do not find opportuni­

ties to spend all the money available to them because cer­

tain projects that they had Jn mind cannot be carried out •

. And I could mention one or two, however, I shall not do so

now.

And, Sir, perhaps the most subtle way by

which a government can bufld a big deficit is by charging

against ordinary account items that ought to be charged,.

and normally are charged, against capital account.

Once again, we must await the audited state­

ment and cause inquiry to be made in Public Accounts

before we can determine to what extent this government

has resorted to this mothod of building a deficit.

(Applause}.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the average man on the street . . '

will understand about ordinary accounts and capital

accounts when it is phrased in the language of that man

in his daily endeavours. Should a man decide to build

a house, he may find that he does not have the money '

available, and he goes. to a mortgage institution and

- 842 -

March ·21st, 1957.

: MR. FIELDING - cont'd

arranges for a loan.

He arranges that the progress payments on

that construction job shall be paid by the mortgage

company and charged against the mortgage loan, which

in terms of BOVernment finance is capital account~

If that house builder does not send a monthly

payment to the mortgage company to be paid by them .

and charged to capital budget account, but if he issues

a cheque on his ordinary current account, he may well

find that he has overdrawn his account or, in terms of

government f'Inance-, that he has created a deficit.

That is in simple terms what can be done by a

government that has decided to create a deficit for its

own purposes. (Applause).

AN HON. MEMBi3R

Would the honourable' gentleman permit· a question?

MR. FiiLDING

Surely 1

AN HON MZMBER :

Does the honourable member mean to infer that

the deficit has been accummulating since the present

government has taken over?

MR. FIELDING i

Mr. Speaker, if my honourable friend had

foliowed what I had to say, that was certainly my con-

tention. Considerable breath has been.expended in vain.

(Laughter).

· And that hee-haw th&t I hear is no answer-to

. my argument.

I refrain then, Mr. Speaker from further · .

, .

- 843 -

Marcih 21st 1957,

MR• FIELDING - 9ont'd;

comment on the size of the defiCit predicted by the

Provincial Treasure.r for the current fiscal year.

I would call to the attention of the House that

there are 15 Departments of Government set forth in that

statement.

The Provincial Treasurer complained that our

estimate had not been carefully made, and he predicted

that there·would be realized $114,25$ less revenue than

was estimated. That 11 of the Departments would exceed

somewhat the revenue estimates. And that only four

would fail to reach revenue estimates, and two of them

would be approximately reached.

The Department of Highways and the Department

·of the Provincial Secretary would fall below estimates

r~ntioned. The prediction was that the Department of

Highways revenue would be $)55,600 less than estimates,

and that the revenue of·the Provincial Secretary's De­

partment would be $124,676 less.

I hope there is no significance in the fact .

that the same Minister presides over these two Depart­

ments.

,1

And I do not say that, Mr. Speaker, lightly,

because I have some regard for the competence of that

Minister, and I say it now, as I said in the opening de­

bate in this House - that that is too heavy a job for

one man and he cannot give due attention to all the

matters that a~e required of him by the government to-day.

(Heart Heart)

Quite frankly, Mr. Sr-eaker, I was disappointed

that the Gasoline Tax revenue, which was estimated, was

not likely to be reached. We had estimated a substantial

844 - .. ~ .... ...._ ... ,.

w .. March 21st 1957 ~

. MR, FIELDING cont'd

increase in that revenue for the year, and in the Budget

Speech delivered by the Provincial Treasurer on the 19th

March, 1956, the reason for that optim~stic forecast was

set forth. _,., ....... '"""'"'~

One of the factors was the e.xpe"c'te'd" increase

in the tourist industry.

\veather condi t.ions last summer were unfavour-

able for tourist business. And the number of tourists

io Nova Scotia, as in other provinces, according to the

Dominion Bureau of Statistics was substantially below

that of the year before.

HON. MR. SMITH :

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the honour-

able gentleman a question ? I thought I heard him

suggest - I may be wrong - that the forecase that he made

for the Department of the Provincial Secretary were down

from the Estimates. Now if he did, wouid he mind giving

me the text of that again or saying whether he did?

MR. FIELDING

In the Interim Statement that I was referring

t-o it is Page 7 - oh, you are talkine about the revenue -

excuse me.

I was referring to the statement at the bottom ...... ,

of Page 3, where the forecast indicates that there· would

be. one hundred and twenty-four thousand, six hundred and

seventy-six dollars less.

And, briefly, I called to the attention of my

honourable friend, the loss that we had in the theatre

admissions, which is one hundred and eight thousand dollars

less in the forecast than in the Estimates of the House.

And that is an experience not peculiar to this

province. The advent of TV has caused a lot of loss. of

I

''"-'•• ,··.··, ·"·-~-·~ ... ~ - 845 ~

March 21st 1957.·

Mfi, F'I§LDING - cont'd

theatre business, and I know the matter must have received

the serious consideration of the Minister of that Depart;..

ment and of the Provincial Treasurer, and I think that

in the Estimates for the coming year he indicates that

there would be a lower amount of revenue from that

source.

HON •. MR. SMITH :

I wonder, t1r. Speaker, if ·I n,ight ask a. further

question?

In view of what the honourable gentleman has

just said about what appears to be the reason for this,

. is he still suggesting that th~re is some particula~

suspicion related to this matter because I happen to·

hold the office?

MR. FIELDING ,}:

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that all of the

diligence of my honourable friend would have corrected

the conditions of the theatre admissions tax.

And I hope that this is not an instance where

the revenue might have been derived and could have been ·

derived if the Minister had been giving it attention.

Let me digress _from what I said, Mr. Speaker, in view

of the suggestion of my honourable friend to call to his

atterition that he is also the Minister in charge of

. Liquor Administration.

To call to his attention th~t I think all the

governments of Canada, if you include a liquor Commission,

(if not all, more than three-quarters of them) resolved

t~at they would increase the prices of liquor and their

inco~e - not from the 1st of February - but for the month

.\11th the largest volume of sales in our experience -

- 846 -

March 21st 1957 •.

MR, F1*LDINQ·- conM'd i

December.

fiow,~ I am not asserting that the decision of

the government, Mr. Speaker, should have been to in­

crease the price of liquor at all on the first of February

or at all.

If the Treasurer was concerned about dwindling

revenues of this province that was one way in which the

1~inisters of the government could have readily pointed

out that this could easily have been overtaken.

And that was done as a business measure by

most if not all of the other provinces of Canada. I

suspect, Mr. Speaker, that it might not have been

politically expedient· and that the choice was for

political expediency rather than for buaf.neas manage­

ment (Desk thumping and loud applause).

HON. MR. JNI'lll :

I wonder if I might ask the honourable gentle­

man another question?

Is he aware of the date under which the Chief

Commissioner of the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission became

aware of this increase of the price of liquor, and when

the Minister in charge of this Liquor Commission at that.

time became aware of it?

MR, FIELDING :

Mr. Speaker, I can speak only from .my own

knowledge and I am quite aware when I learned it.

That it is a matter of policy that might well not be

raso lved by a government and want to be retained by a 1

government that was not going to continue in office

until the end of the year, and shoulq be considered

by the incoming government.

J

847

March 21st, 1957.

MR, FIELDING - cont'd:

The Interim Statement i.,dicates that the

fievenue from gas tax to be realized this current

year exceeds the revenue for gas t ax in the previous

year, but it. does not indicate the hd ghar increase

which we had anticipated, due to an increased use of

our highways during the year.

I note in the estimates which the Pro­

vincial Trecsurer presented to this House, that the

Provincial Treasurer indicates that he expects more "

in the coming year and probably on the same grounds

on which I found a year ago that there should be an

increase, in the amount to be received from the Gas

Tax.

But I do not see any suggestion ih the

Estimates and none was given in the 6peech of the

honourable Provincial Treasurer, that the relative­

·1y high gas tax in this. province is to be cut· by the

present administration. ( !·humping).

Mr. 0peaker, the Interim statement predicts

that the revenue will not reach .c;stimates. I predict

th.:at it will.

And we shall await the audited account to

determine which is the better guess. ( Heart. Heart).

THE P RI!l-II .cJt :

.... ,.

Does my honourable fri,end predict that his

· estim ~ te of gasoline tax increases for· the fiscal

,, year will equal

IviR • · .fl ELDIN G : No, nr. i.)peaker, my friend didn't hear me.·.

• l said that the whole estimates - that. he predicted

t hat, the whole revenue estimates o .f the government, of

•. .·/> . ' • J ~ '

,, I t ',

' I I

- 848 -

March 21st, 1957.

Mn. FIELDING - cont'd:

Nova clcotia would not be reached. I predict that

they will.

Now I .. pr~Jdict t..a t the total expenditures -

set up. in the Interim Statement, which the forecast

said wou Ld be ,,;. 58,897,547, before makang provision

for Sinkirig Fund; I predict th2t with any degree of

prudence on the part of the IIinisters of the Crown,

that expenditure will not be reached. ( Hear t Heart

and Applause).

I would now like to comment on some in- ·

creased authorization for expenditures. li'irst, I

would like to comment on the Department of bducation.

1;e authorized an incree.sed expenditure of a

million dollars in t hat Depe r tment , In the first

estimate of the Premier, d~ted Janu&ry, he said that

it might well be th&t that sum would be insufficient·

and m;t.ght require ~, 200,000 additional.

In his latest estimate, in the Interim

Statement tabled, he predicted that the total expendi-

tures of the Department of Education would be 14.8

million as against 13.7 million authorized by the

legisl~ture, and one million authorized by Order-in­

Coupcil and in other words that the 200,000 he estimated

might be required has in his subsequent Estimates been

amended to~ 100,000.

I will await with interest to see whether or

not my estimi:lte of the r e qu Lrement e for t hs.t de~:e. rtment

was not more nee.rly accurate than the estimate contained

849 -·

March 21st, 1957.

MR: [I&LPING - cont'd:

in· t.he speech yesterday by the Pr'emd er , I do not· think

that the incoming Hinister of Education and the Pro­

vincial Treasurer should have been surprised that a

larger sum was required in education than the sum set

forth in the estimates of the last session of the

House.

It must have been apparent to anyone in­

terested in Education that substantial changes were

made in the '56 session of the House, in the l~gisla­

ture at that time, and after the estimates had been

prepared - -

. HON, MIDIJ3ER:

In 19551

?ill.. FI.i:..LDI ~·JG:

No, in 1956 - the.re were substantial changes

made by legislation in this House, proposed by me as

the Minister of .... ducat ion and Provincial Treasurer

and I believe ununimously approved by the House.

Let me point out something; we had, Lr.

Speaker, under Bill 66, and following its proclamation,

the basic year on which there was calculated the per­

centages to be paid by the cities, towns and municipali­

ties of the province.

There were in four counties, in the munici­

palities of the County of Cumber'Land , Hant s Last and

the counties of Lunenburg and v.ue en s , rural and regional ~

high schools established which were in operation on

tr!Et let day. of January 19 56, when the new Act came into in

effect, but which had not been/operation in the. year

1954, and I am 'prepared to say that the reason why they

.. _ 850

March 21st, 1957.

Mh. FI1ij)ING cont'd:

were not in effect was a ~elay on the.part of the

government who had been carrying out the program.

I suggest to the House it was·only fair

and reasonable that the percentages paid to the

mtinicipalities under the educational program should

not be adversely affected by the delay on the part

of the provincial government in construction, and accordingly we undertook, what amounted to approxi-

,mately a quarter of a million dollars of money, un­

der the amendment of 1956.

Under the amendmant of 1956, i undertook to

examine into the cost of the operations of those

region~! and rural high gchools with the result the

provincial share - I don't like to uent i on this figure

from memory - but it exceeded ~130,uoo. I pointed

out at tho time when the estimates of Education were

introduced last yeQr, that it was th~ first year in

which the new partnership program was in opt.:ration -

it was indeed difficult to determine exactly - the

requirements of the municipalities under the new

ptogramme.

I'd say - and I would say with some degree

of sympathy with my honourable friend, as I was in the

same position last year - that it is difficult to de­

termine req.uirements at tho time that the estimates

are prepared and to get the municipal authorities

to figure what they thought would be required to de­

termine accurately the amount required.

t .

/ I

- 851 -

March 21st, 1957,

Mlt. FIELDING - cont'd:

I would add that the new minister will ex­

perience difficulty as I did because of the very

substantial item of teachers' salaries. It is dif-

ficult to kno w in January or iebruary, the number,

experience and qualifications 01 teachers who will

be_ emp Loyed in t he following Sept ombe r ,

Again the amount of the Proviucial contri­

bution is affected by the ~mount of.municipal ex-

pen df.t.ur e, as I pointed out in the Budget Spe ech last

year and I quote:

"Lf many projected new schools are built

this year, it may be necessary to provide additional

sums beyond those estimated."

The gr0ater part of the r0quirement of one

million dollars supplementary grant for this Depart-·

ment was occasioned by two things; the legislative

changes and more substantially the Gapital require­

ments. I do not mean by that necessarily only new - canst ruction, because the municipalities we1 e tak;ing

over from school sections .am they did not have avail­

able for the Depar-tmerrt at tho time of the preparation.

of estimates, an adequate statement of the amount that

would be required for that purpose.

Now, I recognize the difficulty that the

Provincial Treasurer and Minister of Education will

have but I don't think it should be as difficult as

it was last year. in our first year of operation.

,/

I .

.. -·852 -

March 21st, 1957.

M!~. FIELDING - cont'd:

I am satisfiad, Mr .. Speaker, thcit the

government of Nov a Scotia, could do no t.h Ing else

than ,rovide the sums 10quired, in our partnership

arrangernent s and I do not think that the Provincial

Troasurer should really criticize us, on reflaction,

that that one million dollars of ex?ondituro was

authorized for the Department. There was nothing

we could do about it.

rtnd while I am saying this, may I say, Itr ,

5peaker, that I am vory hppay indeed about the state-

ment made_by the present Minist~r of hducation and

Provincial Treasurer, that while he didn't introduce

Bill 66 ~nd while he wasn't responsible for its being

thore, he was going to try to maka it work. (Applause).

And I am happy t._at thu program, if it is

carriod 6ut in the spirit in which it should be carried

out, will relievu us from Iu rt.he r political debato on

this great problem of education to which we should all

give t he best that is in us. { Applause and Hear ! Hoe r 1 ) •

ow, Mr • .:>po~kt:r, thu second substantial in­

crease authoriz~d by the Goven1ment of Nova Scotia was

to t he Department of Highways. ~,e authorized t he

Minister of Highways to expend one and one-half million

dollars more than was projectt!d in th~ Estimates passed by the Legislature, nor would I have been satisfie4, Mr. ~poakor, to stop at that additional authorization if tho Minister could pro c eed with- needed roads.

favourable weath13r·conditions extend0d the period of fall maintenance work, z nd I would not have hesitated to increase still furthur the sum that the

.. Hicks govornment had grant~d to tho Department of HiJh­ ways if I could have been a s sur ed th, .... t such additional sums, wou Ld mee t the demands r'o r Lmp ro ved h1;_;h\',iays, par­ tic_ulnrly in our rural a rcas , ( Applause and HearUwart).

- 85.3 -

March 2~st, 1957.

· MR, 1'.,l]j;LOING. - cont'd:

HON. MR. SJl.:;ITH:

I wonder if I might ask the honour-abre

gentleman a question'? Is the honourable ge nt Leman

aware of the very large additional sums there were

spent by the ~inister of Highways during the period

to which the honourable gentleman refers? Over and

above the amounts which you declared were authorized?

lvlrl. ll.t!,LDL,G:

Oh, yes, ~1r. Speaker, I was aware that some

sums over and above the million and a half dollars

were spent, and were 1being spent, and I gave assur­

ance to the Minister, that such sums as were reason­

ably expended for the betterment of the highways

would receive my recommendations to the government

that they should be paid. (Applause).

I did not anticipate, and I do not accept

as factual, the estimated expenditures of the Depart­

ment of Highways in the Interim Statement, but I wish

t o point out that any sums expended on current account

in the i;sst year when properly expended, reduced the

requirements of subsequent years.

And indeed in the Estimates·· submitted to

this House, the Provi .. cial Treasurer does not pro­

pose an expenditure next year as great on Highways

as the Interim Statement sets forth as the amount

to be expended in the qurrent fiscal year on main­

tenance· account.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have dealt with two of

the increased appropriations.

, I

- 854

March 21st, 195?.

MR. FIELDING - cont'd:

A third had to do with the holding of a I

provincial general election, and I think my honour-

able friends opposite should. gl~dly foot the bills> -

(Laughter) - . if the government dee id ed to hold an

election and to follow the normal practise to pro­

vide the additional amounts necessary to conduct on

behalf of the province the polls necassary .for them

to be elected. __ (Laughter).

I would point out to the House, Mr. Speaker,

that the government was not obliged to go to the

country. It would have waited for the expiration of

Lt s five years, like some earlier governments did.

There were some vacancies in the House, but not as

many as in the days of the Harrington government.

But tne government decided to go to the

country, and the people had an opportunity to ex­

press their views, and by a conbination of circum­

stances which will more clearly appear, Mr. Speaker,

that decision resulted in a very close popular vote,

but elected a new go var-nmerrt ·tri +:.:1 a l:iqjo::·ity of the

House.

I am sorry that that happeried , Ivlr. Speaker­

( Laughter) - and I find that more and more people

are finding disappointment in that too. (Applause).

There were some other smaller appropriations

mentioned by the Premier in the broadcast he made,

and which I gathered from the statement were not in-­

eluded amongst the sums which he felt were appropri-

·at~ly spent or authorized by the government.

There was, and we have referred to it in

the debates in this House, an increase given to the

..; 855 -

-..__, March 21st, 1957,

MR, FIELDING - cont'd:

__ Civil Service. May I point out, Mr. Speaker, that

all of these additional authorizations, were made ~•l·i• ~

after the Government of Canada had authorized and

empowered the l'-dnister of Finance at Ottawa to

enter into an .agreement with the Province of Nova

Scotia providing us wii:h that six million dollars

which will be available this year and each of the

succeeding years for five years.

And, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the gov­

ernment ·~of to.:tay :\.s not critical of the advancements

made in the pay of the civil servants. 1~.1.y reason

for saying that· is twofold:

. First. after this government came into

office they immediately carried out the normal

practice of adding to the salaries of civil servants,

who.had by industry and diligence and competence

earned an increase in every department of the gove~n­

ment.

I know that in the departments over which

I presided, there were presented to me suggestions

that in the month of November, it was customary to·

review these salaries, and I was to approve of them.

But I felt, and I know that the government

of Nova Scotia felt in all its departments, that

this was a matter which might appropriately be

dealt with by the new administration before the end ,,

of the month of November. And they did - they made

the increases and therefore added to those sums wl}ich

we had giveri in the previous June.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am complimenting them,

on that. It indicates that they saw that we were

lvlarch 21st, 1957,

right, and it indicates that they went along with

·us, and as I look at the estimates presented in this

House, this week, I find that they have made still

further provision for payments to the Civil Servants

of Nova Scotia.

HON. MR. DONAHO~:

FQr the whole year!

MR. FIELDING:

But will my honourable friends tell me

that they do not intend to carry on as they did

last November· - in rewarding faithful servants and

officials with increases as the time goes on?

(Laughter).

H0N. .MR. DUNI\HOI!::

would the honourable gentleman allow me a

question, Mr. Speaker? Does my honourable friend not

agree with me that each time when the government, in

anticipation of the expected new revenues, authorized

the expendt cures for substantial increase in salaries.,

that to the extent of that extension was authorized,

he was committing the anticipated new revenues so

as to make them not available to the new .gover nment t

MR, FIELDING:

Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is ·like this.

When dealing with the, employees of government, I

have not found my honourable friends opposite com­

mitted to do what we had done for employees. They

have taken a separate and a very different way.

(Applause).

I ' I

.;. 857

March 21st, 1957.

MR,. FIELDING - cont' g·: Now, Mr, Speaker , it was !TW intention to

deal with only a few other matters and I have al­

ready consumed a considerable period of time in

this debate.

An opportunity will come my way, and on

another motion to go into· Supply I will further

extend my remarks.

Let me say just one thing generally.about

the- Estimates at this time.

I had hoped to say something about the

Provincial Treasurer and the unfortunate record of

his government's dealings with the bonds of this

province. departing from the good business pr-act i ce

of calling for tenders.

I think that the Leader of the Government

indicated yesterday that he hopes that he won't ' again go into that method of sale of the securities

of the pro vi nee.

THE Pfi£1t·+JKR:

~~YI ask the honourable gentleman a

questi,on? May I ask him if this is the first time

in recent years that the government has felt it

necessary to negotiate a sale of provincial debent-

ures?

MR. FIELQii'-IG: Mr. Speaker, I can· answer that question

quite readily. This is the first time in recent

_ 858 _

March 21st, 1957,

·I.JIR. FIELD I NG - cont'd:

years that we have gone on the Canadian market in

the manner+ in whic~ my honourable friend did, but

when you go on the New York market, you have to

proceed in that way. I may say further that in

the days when Angus L. J.viacdonald was Premier of . '

this province, he did on occasion proceed so in

the dealing with a particular issue.

I think no matter who did it, that the

proper way of proceeding with the sale of secur­

ities of this province is open and above board

by calling for tenders.- opening them in the

presence of all those who are tendering for the

issue, and letting it be thoroughly understood

what kind of procedure is being acted upon.

THr.i PREMIER:

Did my honourable friend say that with

an issue made last December, it would have been

advisable for this government in the conditions

which existed, to call for tenders rather than

negotiate with a strong syndicate, as was~don~?.· i

MR, FI:bLDING:

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am saying that.

AN HO~. ~lliIVIBl!iR:

That's all we want to know.

1, '

March 21st, 1957. '\

.. ~. J:l~LYlJiw..-, cont'd; . . . ,.

MR. FIELDING:

And I would say this, Vi.r. Speaker, that in

the same issue, the province of Nova Scotia paid a

higher rate for its money than at any time since ·a

Conservative government was in power. '

I am not saying, and I want to be fair; that

anyone ordinarily going to the market at that time

would have hoped for as good a rate as was available

to government in the preceding days because quite

clearly, quite clearly, the effect of anti-inflationary

measures at Washington and Ottawa had increased the

cost of borrowing for individuals, for corporations,

for government at ali levels and I'll say that we

shall never know what we might have got for bonds

in December 1956, because good or bad we do not know

- because it wasn't conducted as a businesslike sale

on the part of the government.

THE PREt.:IER:

(Applause.)

,,'ould my honourable friend consider that

the prices received by other provinces would afford

a means of determining whether we got a good price

iri a certain issue of debentures or not?

l\'iR. FIJiJLDING:

~·Tell, Mr. spsaker, there may be ·very many

·reasons affecting other provinces. Let us look at

.our own for a period. (Heart heart and laughter.)

I I

..

..

860 ..

March 21st, 1957.

MR. FIELDING - 99nt'd;

And I know the practice we are dealing with.

In more than one province, the practic~ of Conservative

governments is to deal with their friends on a negot­

iated contract.

(Medley of.voices.)

+ am not , sayd ng, Mr. Speaker, that I think

tha Provincial Treasurer so decided in this case, ·r think the Provincial Treasurer hopes ihat he does not

have to proceed by that method again. That when we

ate going to call for tenders for the purchase of a

bag of potatoes, we are surely going to call for ten­

ders when we sell a million or more dollars worth of ·- bonds. (Heart heart)

MR SPENCE:

Does that include hospit.,al tenders-1· '"Victoria

General Hospital?

DR. LANGILLE:

Or the Nova Scotia Sanatorium?

MR. FIELDING:

Again, ~.r. Speaker, honourable gentlemen ' looking for government plums have been doing some.

calculating - but I don't think they have calculated

very accurately at all. (Laughter.)

Now, Mr. Speaker, what I think is that we

should endeavor to deal with the Public Accounts of

this provinc~ in an effort to lead to responsible de­

cisions.

I should think that the Leader or the Oov- .

ernment showed a more - a far more responsible attitude

. ,

- 861 ...

March 21st, 1957.

r.m. FIELDING - cont Id;

toward Public Expenditures and Revenues in his

statement in this House this week than he did "'J-.

in any previous statement which he gave in the

past.

. .And now, Mr. Speaker, I might have

occasion to refer to some of those ~n~iier state­

ments.

In one statement I suggest he was making

a virtue out of necessity for some of the things·he

had previously said, the Premier suggest that he would

not now be able to .,ay.

THE PRFJ\'lIER:

Oh not I never said that.

MR. FIELDING:

Oh, I happen to have a copy of what my

honourable friend said

!:J.mL MEl-ffiERS:

( rvrealoy,~· or .. voii.ces;) MR. FIELDING:

This ·is what the Lead~r of the Government

had to say in this House on the 1st of March, 1957,

page 61 of Han~ard;

"While I am in this vein, Mr. Spea~er, I

want to say I don't contend that everything I· said

in. public .life is necessarily right. And I don't

know ,1ust what I may have said that may have been

mistaken." ( Laughter and appl.ause . ) ,"But I expect

. I won It have to live too long to find th~t some of '

the things I may have said were m·istaken."

- - 862

March 21st, 1957.

MR. FIELDING - cont'd;

And then he said, and again I think he was

making a generous gesture. · ··

"I hope that I will always be able to se;

that l may have been mistaken and try to do what is

·right, rather than try to defend in each and every

instance that I was entirely right in what I said

before." ( Prolonged anplause.)

With reference to that high resolve~ all

honourable members are agreed. And no man wi 11

have more opnortunity to examine his public state­

ments than the Premier of this Province. (Laughter

and applause.)

Les us examine the Estimates. Having

regard to this somewhat modest statement: ·.which. the

Treasurer presented, and having regard to the fact

that he has frankly confessed that he has under­

estimated Revenue -·and I don't know whether he

confessed to over estimating Expenditure.

Then it will not be difficult for us and

for the Municipal Governments of Nova Scotia to

know'that they could have been paid the extra mil­

lion dollars that was promised by the Liberal party

and not have considered these other matters the

Premier spoke about to stand in the way.

/ .

...

... 863 -

March 21st, 1957,

}ffi. FIELDING - cont'd;

I am satisfied that with prudent ad­

miniat-~ation, the municipalities would have got

and should have got some further assistance than

any given to date.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I may at a later

time have an oppor-tunt ty to further ment.ron

this matter.

I n.ow say that it is the duty of

members of.this·Lep;islature, no matter on which

side of the House they sit, to· take a sober look

at the situation confronting this Province.

There are great problems. There will

be need of devising not only how to spend the

money Ottawa agre-emenas provide but to examine

all departments to see what they will be in need

of not only to simply carrr on, but the need and

the evaluation of higher public services in the

Province and if necessary to have the courage

to raise the revenues required to meet those

needs. · ( H'.~ar ! heart )

In that strain let us all together

examine exactly the estimates for this year, and

I trust that after another year's experience, the

Provincial Treasurer will be better prepared.

(Loud and pronlonged applause.)

I·

863 .l r Ma.rob. 21, 19;7

!be House went into Committee or the

Whole on Supply. The ColDlnittee rose and reported progress,

and asked leave to sit again. Granted.

llYIIXER STANFIEJ,P • Mr. Speaker, betore moving t~e adjournment,

I would like to indicate to members ot the House that

it is the intention to take up next the estimates ot

the Attorney-General's Department. Is that 1atistactory?

88MB HQN, MBMBBRS a !hank you.-

THE PRBMIBR • Mr. Speaker, I aove that the.House do now rise

. to meet again t oaorrow attel'noon at 3 o I olook.' Carried.