Project Camelot Gary McKinnon Transcript

8/2/2019 Project Camelot Gary McKinnon Transcript

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ProjectCamelot|GaryMcKinnontranscriptVIDEOINTERVIEWSVIDEOINTERVIEWSSPECIALREPORTSSPECIALREPORTSAUDIOINTERVIEWSAUDIOINTERVIEWSTheBarcelonaConferenceTheBarcelonaConferenceTheBrusselsConferenceTheBrusselsConferenceTheLosAngelesConferenceTheLosAngelesConferenceTheZurichConferenceTheZurichConferenceCamelotLiveatVilcabambaCamelotLiveatVilcabambaAaronMcCollumAaronMcCollumNEW:THEANGLO-SAXONMISSIONNEW:THEANGLO-SAXONMISSIONBenjaminFulfordBenjaminFulfordDrBillDeagleDrBillDeagleBillHamiltonBillHamiltonBillHoldenBillHoldenBillRyanandKerryCassidyBillRyanandKerryCassidyBobDeanBobDeanBoriskaBoriskaDrBrianO'LearyDrBrianO'LearySgt.CliffordStoneSgt.CliffordStoneDanBurischDanBurischDanShermanDanShermanDaneTopsDaneTopsDavidCorsoDavidCorsoDavidIckeDavidIckeDavidWilcockDavidWilcockDuncanO'FinioanDuncanO'FinioanElizabethNelsonElizabethNelsonErichvonDnikenErichvonDnikenGaryMcKinnonGaryMcKinnonGeorgeGreenGeorgeGreenGordonNovelGordonNovel'HenryDeacon''HenryDeacon'JaneBrgermeisterJaneBrgermeisterJamesfromWingmakersJamesfromWingmakersJimHumbleJimHumbleJimMarrsJimMarrsJimSparksJimSparksJohnLearJohnLearJohnRobieJohnRobieJosephFarrellJosephFarrellKlausDonaKlausDonaLeoZagamiLeoZagamiDrLenHorowitzDrLenHorowitzLucaScantamburloLucaScantamburloMarciaSchaferMarciaSchaferMiriamDelicado

MiriamDelicado'Mr.X',theUFOarchivist'Mr.X',theUFOarchivistPatrickGerylPatrickGerylPeterLevendaPeterLevendaDrPetePetersonDrPetePetersonDrPaulLaVioletteDrPaulLaVioletteRalphRingRalphRingRicardoSilvaRicardoSilvaRichardHoaglandRichardHoaglandDrStevenGreerDrStevenGreerTheCrystalSkullTheCrystalSkullTonyDoddTonyDoddWadeFrazierWadeFrazierGaryMcKinnon:Interviewtranscript

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HackingthePentagon:GaryMcKinnonLondon,England,June2006

Startofinterview

KerryCassidy:I'mherewithGaryMcKinnon,andwe'reheretotalkabouthispossibleextraditiontotheUnitedStatesforsomehackingthathe'sdone,andsomeinvestigationhe'salsodoneonthepartofUFOsanddisclosure.So,Gary,maybeyoucantellmewhatitistheUSgovernmentisreally

onaboutinregardtoyou,andyourperspectiveonit.Gary:ThemainthingthatconcernsmeisI'vemadefullandfrankadmissionsallthewaydown,intwopoliceinterviews,thatyes,Ididobtainunauthorizedaccesstothesesystems.Butthey'repilingontheseridiculousdamageclaims.AndI'vesincefoundoutthatforittobeworthayearinprisoninAmericaforanextraditioncase,ithastobeworthatleast$5,000damage,becauseitcomesundercybercrime.


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Soasifbymagic,loandbehold,everymachineIwasonI'maccusedofcausingexactly$5,000worthofdamage.It'spatentlyuntrue.Andinmyopinion,andtheopinionofothersmorewell-informedthanme,thepressurethey'rebringingtobearismoretodowithwhereI'vebeenandwhatImayhaveseen.KC:OK.SoIfoundthatveryinterestingthattheywereactuallyclaimingdamage,becausemyunderstandingisyouwereonadial-upmodemandthatyoudidn'tevendownloadfiles.Sohowisitthatyouactuallydidanydamage?GM:They'vegotnoexplanation.Imean,theyjustclaimthat.Underthisnewextraditionlawyoudon'thavetoprovideanyevidence,whichisridiculous.Andalsoithasn'tbeensignedonyoursideofthewater.Congress,theSenate,hasn'tratifiedit.Soatthemomentit'satreatywithonlyonesignature.KC:OK.Andyouhadonehearing.Whenwasthatexactly?GM:Thelastonewas,Ithink,inthemiddleofMay[2006]ortowardtheendofMay.I'mnotsure.KC:AndyouhaveanotheronecomingupinJuly?Isthatright?GM:Nohearingisscheduledasyet.We'vegotuntilJune21sttomakerepresentationtotheHomeSecretary,afterwhichtimehe'llmakehisdecisionastowhetherornottheextraditionisallowable.Andthenifhedecidesthatitisallowable-whichI'msurehewill-thenI

cangointotheappealsprocess.KC:OK.Andsoonceyou'reintheappealsprocessyou'restillbasicallysafeoverhere,sotospeak,intermsoftheyactuallycan'tdoanythingtoyouyet.Isthatright?GM:That'scorrect.Yes.I'vebeenonbailnow,5,000securityformonthsandmonths...well,forfouryearssincethearrest.KC:Forfouryears?GM:Yes.InMarchof2002theyarrestedme.KC:Wow.OK.So,maybeyoucanexplainexactlywhatyou'reinfor-or"up"for,Iguessmightbeabetterword.GM:Apparentlyit'ssevencountsofintentionalmaliciousdamageand

unauthorizedaccess,eachcountcarrying10yearsmaximum.Each.AndpreviouslytheAmericangovernmenthadtriedtodosomedealswithmewherebytheysaid:Ifyoudon'tforceustogothroughextraditionandjustcomeacrossofyourownfreewill,thenwe'llgiveyouonly3to4yearsinprison,mostofwhichyoucanserveinyourowncountryafterthefirst6monthsor12months.Isaid:Fine;thatsoundsgreat.Givemethatinwriting.[Smiles,shrugs]Guesswhathappened.Ididn'tgetitinwriting.SoIsaidnotothevariousdealoffers.Soitlookslikeonpaper,theysaidtome:Ifyoudon'tacceptthedealwe'llprosecutetothemax.That'saverbatimquotefromEd

Gibson,whowastheattachattheUSEmbassyinLondonatthetime.Tomethat'snotadeal.Adealissomethingarrivedatafterreasonablediscussionbetweentwoormoreparties.KC:Absolutely.GM:They'resaying:Ifyoudon'ttakeit,we'llprosecutetothemax.So,yeah,Ithinktheydowanttotrytopushfor60or70yearsinprisonwhichisridiculous,consideringtheyhadblankpasswords,inotherwords,nopasswords.KC:Right,solet'sgetintothatalittlebit.Youbasically-Idon'tknowifyouwantmetousethewordhack.Idon'tknowifyou


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consideryourselfa"hacker,"ordidatthetime?GM:Ineverdidconsidermyselfahackeratthetime.Also,basicallyallIwasdoingwas,becauseitwasanadministratorlevelaccount,let'snotforget,withfullcontrolofthelocalmachinewithablankpassword.Soitwasalmostlikeloggingon.KC:Solet'sbackuponeminutehere.Exactlywhatwereyoulookingforwhenyouweredoingthis?GM:AtfirstIwaslookingforanythingtodowithUFOs.AsIgotmoreintothesubjectandlistenedtomoreserioustalkanddiscussionaboutthesubject,andwasintroducedtotheDisclosureProject,andrealizedthattherewere,youknow,400witnesstestimonialsfrompeoplewhoworkedineverythingfromcivilianairtrafficcontrol,uptomilitaryradaroperators,rightuptomenandwomeninchargeofwhetherornottolaunchnuclearmissiles.Ithoughttheseweresurelycrediblepeople.Andthewholesuppressedtechnologything,whichkindofgrabbedmyhumanitarianside.Ithought:Crikey,we'rehavingwarsoveroil,andwe'reburningfossilfuels,pollutingtheenvironment,andwehaveoldagepensionersdyinginBritainbecausetheycan'taffordtoheatthemselvesbecausefuelbillsaresohigh.

AndsoIthought:WhyonEarthisthistechnologybeingsaton?Icanseeperhapssomeoftheargumentsthatmaybeforit.Forexample,youknow,whatifterroristshadfreeenergy,orterroristshadantigravity?Well,youknow,whatifterroristshadguns?Everything'sdual-use.Youhavetoprotectit,makeittamper-proof,anything,butjustgetitouttothepublic.Surelyeveryoneshouldhaveit.KC:OK.Butasfarasthehackercommunity-yousaid,Ibelieve,insomethingsIread,thatyoucameacrossalotofothersortof"interestedparties"thatwereinvestigatingthesameplacesyouwere,andwereawarethattherewereblankpasswords,andwereabletoget

intoviatheadministrativesites.Isthatright?GM:Yes.Imean,Iwouldhavebeensurprisediftherewasn'tanyoneelse,becauseitwasn'tevenreallya"hack"togetinto.Itwaslarge-scalefishingwithblankpasswords.Andsomeoftheseplaces,youknow,wereprettyspecialplaces;theywereplacesyouwouldn'tthinkwouldn'thavefirewallsorblankpasswords.KC:Andthiswaswhatyearthatyouwereinvolvedinthis?GM:2000,2001.KC:Soit'snotthatlongago.Socomputersystemsshouldhavebeen...especiallyforgovernment,militaryandNASA...youwouldthinktheywouldbecoveredforthingslikethat.GM:Yes,absolutely.InfactIthinktherearesupposedtobefederal

guidelines,youknow.KC:Soinawayyoudidthemafavor,isn'tthattrue?GM:Yeah,youcouldlookatitlike,thatbecauseI'msure...Imean,theotherconnectionsthatwerethere-Turkey,Holland,Germany,allacrosstheworld-youcouldseetheIPaddressesthatconnectedtothemachineandyoucouldlookitupandfindoutwhichcountrythey'reinandevenwhichbusinessesowntheIPs.AndIdon'tknowwhetherthatwasforeigngovernments.ItcouldhavebeenAlQaeda.Itcouldhavebeensomeoneelsejustlikeme,justsnoopingaround.Whoknows?


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KC:That'saveryinterestingpoint.Soyou'vegottheseadministrators,basically,thatgotfoundoutbecauseofwhatyoudid.Isthatwhatwecanassume?GM:No.It'sgoodtoclarifythatit'stheAdministratoraccount.Alotofthetime,onacorporatenetworkoralargeorganizationliketheArmyortheNavy,theydidn'tactuallyuse"anAdministrator,"butit'sabuilt-inaccount.Youcan'tdeleteit.Youcanre-nameit.Butthat'sfor,say,ifsomeonewantedtodosomethingsystem-wideacrossthewholenetwork,theywouldusethataccounttologinremotely.Thatgivesyoufullcontroloverthemachine.Butitdoesn'tactuallyrefertoaparticularperson.KC:Oh.Sothere'snoparticularworkerinvolvedinthat,thatmaintainsthesiteoranything.GM:That'scorrect,yes.Well,obviouslytheymusthaveITstaffthatlookafterthings.KC:Right.Anddidn'tyouencounteroncesuchperson,orwasheanITguy,ontheotherend?GM:Yeah.Hewasanetworkengineer.BecauseIhadgraphicalremotecontrolofthemachine,itwasliterallylikesittingonthechairoppositethescreen,oppositethemonitor.AndIthinkImusthavegotthetimezonewrong,orhewasworkinglatehoursorwhatever.Buthe

obviouslysawthemousemovingacrossthescreen.AndnextthingIknow,WordPadflashesupandsomeonetypes:"Whoareyou?"

AndIpanicked.Ididn'twanttogetcaught.Ithoughtveryquicklyonmyfeetandturnedaroundmyowninvestigationsintoanexplanationtoanswerhim.

AndIsaid:"I'mfromNipponetSecurity"-whichisanon-classifiedinternetprotocolandrouternetwork-"AndI'vediscoveredsomeunauthorizedscanningcomingfromthismachine.I'mheretoinvestigateit."Andheimmediately-itwasagoodployofmyhuman

nature,youknow-triedtoimpressmewithhisknowledgeandshowedmethis,didavirusscan,andprettymuchshowedmethatthemachinewasclean-andthenmovedalong.KC:Wow.Andhewasneverthewiser?BecauseIknowthatthiswassomehowlinkedtoyouactuallygettingcaught,what,amonthlater,orIdon'tknowhowmuchlonger.GM:Ican'tactuallyrememberwhenthatincidenttookplace.Iwasdoingthiseverynight,allnightpractically,fortwoyears.I'dnotreallylookedaftermyselfverymuch,sodatesandthingsareabitmangled.KC:Sothiswasarealpassionofyours,inotherwords?GM:Ohyeah.Yeah.

KC:WasthepassionforinformationrelatedtoUFOsandhiddentechnology?Wasthatyourpassion?Orwhatwouldyousayisyourpassioninthatregard?GM:Ipassionatelybelievethatweshouldallhavethistechnology.Andnotsomuch,obviously,ifyoucouldconfirmtheexistenceofextraterrestrialsandtheircontactwithus,thenthatwouldbegood.Buttomeitwasmoreimportanttohavethisfreeenergysystem.KC:OK.Sowhatdidyoufindout?GM:Aboutfreeenergy,nothing.Unfortunately,Igotnothingatall.ButtheUFOthing:itmaysoundcircumstantialtosome,butasfaras


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I'mconcernedit'sproven.AspartoftheDisclosureProject,DonnaHare-aNASAphotographicscientistwhohadaTopSecretclearanceandwasinBuilding8atJohnsonSpaceCenter-shesaysinhertestimonythatoneofhercolleagueswhowasdoingsomephotographicworkinvitedherovertolookatit.Andshesawhigh-ressatelliteimagesofhalfak[ilometer]abovethetreetops-Ithinkitwaslikeawhitedisk.

Andsheatfirstthought:Oh;it'sablobintheemulsion,youknow,somekindoffaultwiththephotographicprocess.Andhesaid:well,look,youknow,blobsintheemulsiondon'thaveperfectlyformedshadowsgoinginthesamedirectionasthetrees?Etcetera,etcetera.Allthedetailwasthere.AndshebasicallywassayingthattheyhadthiswholebaseinBuilding8forairbrushingoutUFOsonaregularbasis,becausetheythensellontheirimagestouniversitiesandthelike.AndhavingbeenalloverotherNASAinstallationsalready-IasumedtheblankpasswordscanningmethodwillworkthesameatJohnsonSpaceCenter-anditdid.OnceIwasinthere,IusedvariousnetworkcommandstostripoutthemachinesthatwereinBuilding8.AndIgotontothose.AndtheveryfirstoneIwasonliterallyhadwhatshesaid.Ican'trememberifitwas"Filtered"and"Raw",Processed"and"Unprocessed,"butthereweredefinitelyfolderswherebytherewasa

transformationinthedatatakingplacebetweenoneandtheother.ThesefolderswerefullofimagesinaproprietaryNASAformat,orinaformatI'dneverseenbefore:nojpegsorgifs.Theywerealso200to300megabytesinsize.Andbeingona56Kdial-upmodem,therewasnowayIwasgoingtodownloadthatatfiveminutespermegabyte.SowhatIdid...Theremotecontrolprogramthatgivesyougraphicalcontrolofthemachine-Iturnedtheresolutionrightdownto,Ithink,4-bitcolorandthenonthedesktopontheNASAmachine,navigatedtothefolder,double-clickedonthefirstimage.Theapplicationlaunches.Theimagecomesuponthescreen,butit'sstillvery,veryslow.AndwhatIsaw,orwashopingtosee,waswhatshewasdescribingasa

saucer,verydefiniteimagery.AndwhatinsteadIsawIassumewastheEarth.Thiswasinshadesofgray.YouhadtheEarth'shemispheretakingupabout2/3ofthescreenandthenhalfwaybetweenthetopofthehemisphereandthebottomofthepicturetherewasaclassicsortofcigar-shapedobject,butwithgolf-balldomes,geodesicdomes,above,below,andthisside[gesturingtotheright],andIassumetheothersideaswell.Ithadveryslightlyflattenedcigarends.Noseams.Norivets.Notelemetryantennaeoranythinglikethat.Itlooked...itjusthadafeelingofnotbeingman-made.Therewasnoneofthesignsofhumanmanufacturing.

KC:Soinessenceitwasacraft,iswhatyou'resaying?GM:Yeah.AtfirstwhenIsawthetophalfIthought:Bollocks,it'sjustaboringsatellitepicture.Butasmoreofthethingwasrevealed,itwasobviousitwasn'tlikeanysatelliteI'deverseen.I'vebeenspace-madsinceIwasabout14,soI'veseenlotsofpicturesofsatellites.KC:OK.Soyouknewwhatyouwerelookingat,tosomedegree.[Garynods.]So,basically,didyoufeelduringthosetwoyearsthatyouweredoingthisinvestigation,threatenedbywhatyouweredoing?Imean,technically,yougotcaughtoutbyoneguy,right?[Garynods


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yes.]Wasthattheonlytime?GM:No.Thatguy,thatnetworkengineer,sortofsawmebutdidn'trealizethatIshouldn'thavebeenthere.ThechapthatactuallycaughtmewasinNASAwhenthisphotographwasaboutofthewaydownonthescreen.Heseesthemousemove,heright-clicksthelocalareanetworkconnectionicon,choosesDisconnect,and-bash,that'sme.Andthat'swhyitwassuchastrangemoment.Itwastriumphantinaway,ofcourse.IhadcompletelycorroboratedwhatDonnaHarehadsaidonmyown,butthengotcaughtattheverysamemoment.KC:Nowwhenyousayyougotcaught...howdidhecatchyou?Iunderstandhecloseddownthenetworksoyoucouldn'tcontinuetovisit.[Garynodsyes]Butdoesthatmeanheactuallyknewwhoyouwereatthatpoint,ordidittakethemalotmoreinvestigationtofindoutactuallywhereyoucamefrom?GM:Ittookthemawhilelonger,Ithinkagoodwhilelonger,althoughI'mnotsurehowmuchlonger.AgainIcan'trememberifthatwas...Thatwasfairlyneartheendofmyinvestigations.Ithinkthatmayhavebeenlate2001.IwasarrestedinMarchof2002.Butwhathappened,I'mtold,isthatNASAandthevariousmilitaryestablishmentsthatIwasinsharedinformation-whichIthinkthesebodiesshoulddomoreoften-theydon'tdoitenoughjustbylawenforcement,andtheyrealizedthatwhoeverhadbeeninthesystemwas

usingthesametools,thesameprograms,thesamemethodofentry.

AndIthinkNASAknewitwasfromaUnitedKingdomIPaddress.Thisisthething:Iwasn'taprofessionalhacker;Iwasn'talwayscoveringmytracksandstuff,orthinkingproperly.Ihadbeenintimezoneswhenpeoplewerestillworkingintheoffices.So,yeahKC:OK.DonnaHare.Iguessyouheardhertestimonyorsawhertestimonysomewhere?Wasitontheweb?GM:ItwastheDisclosureProjectwebsite,their2001NationalPressConference.

KC:Oh,Isee.Andhassheevergottenincontactwithyouatall?GM:No.Buthersecretaryhas.KC:Huh.OK.Andyou'veactuallybeeninterviewedbyanumberofpublications,reputableestablishmentso-called,suchastheBBC.Isthisright?GM:Yes.BBC,Channel4,Channel5,ITV,BBCWorldService...KC:AndTheGuardian?GM:TheGuardian.KC:TheFinancialTimes?GM:Yes,theFT.I'vebeeninTheMetro,TheStandard...TheDailyMailwantmeatthemomentbutI'veyettoreturntheircall.KC:OK.Andjustrecently,LindaMoultonHoweforCoasttoCoast,orpossiblyforCoasttoCoastatsomepoint,andforherownwebsite.

GM:Yeah.ForEarthfilesandDreamland.KC:OK.JustwonderingbecauseIknowthatyourcauseiskindofacausecelebrehereintheUK,butit'snotreallygettingthekindofcoveragethatitdeservesintheUnitedStatesatthispoint.Isn'tthatright?GM:Yeah.Inmyviewthere'sadeliberatenewsblackoutoverthere.I'veonlyhadcontactfrom,Ithinkit'sCNN,andnoneoftheothernewsnetworks-becauseIthinkthereseemtobetwofactionsintheUSmilitaryandgovernment.Oneofthemishugelyembarrassedbywhatyoucouldtermfailingsinsecurity-nofirewalls,nopasswords,no


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security,basically.Especiallysince911,youknow,securityshouldbealotmorestrong.Theotherfactionseemstowantitalloutintheopenandtohaveabigshowtrial,abigcircustrialsaying:ThisIsWhatHappenstoHackers.KC:Oh,Isee,touseyouasascapegoatkindofperson.[Garynodsyes]Well,thatsoundsunfairanditsoundslike,justfromthemostobviouslevel,whydidn'ttheyjusthireyou[Kerrylaughs]sinceyoubasicallypointedoutarealholeinthesystem?Theycouldhavebroughtyouonboard.Itsoundslikeyou'renottotallyagainstsecurity,computersecurity.GM:No,notatall.Notatall.I'vegotagreatrespectforlawenforcementagenciesandmilitaryagencies,whenthey'rethinkingcorrectly.Butthesedays...theyknowI'mincompletedisagreementwithyearsandyearsof-notAmericanforeignpolicy-Ihatewhenpeoplesayit'sAmericanthis,Americanthat-it'snottheAmericanpeople.It'sjustthey'vebeenthevictimsofasuccessionofverybadgovernments,with,youknow,veryshort-termismoutlook.SoIthinktheyknowthatIwouldn'tworkforthem.KC:AndhowistheBritishgovernmentactuallytreatingyou?HaveyouhadanyinteractionswithmembersoftheBritishgovernment?GM:Well,youknow,weobviouslywritetoMPsandthatsortofthing.ButIamverydisappointedwhenyouthinkthefirstthingtheBritish

governmentdidwiththiswashanditoveronaplatetotheAmericangovernment.AlltheevidencewasinLondon.MyharddrivewasinLondon.IwasinLondon.I'dmadeafullandfrankadmissiontoalltheunauthorizedaccess.Allthedetailswerethere.

Andatfirstthepoliceherewerequitefriendly.Theysaid:Oh,youmayget6monthscommunityservice,justhelpingthecommunityatlarge,etcetera.ButwhentheywentovertoAmericaandhadmeetingswiththeOfficeofNavalIntelligence,andIthinkpossiblytheAirForceOfficeofSpecialInvestigationsaswell,theycamebackwithacompletelydifferentlyattitude:Very,veryheavy;very,veryserious.Andthensuddenlyyou'vegotalltheheadlinesabout"criminal

masterminds",andallthisrubbish.KC:Oh.Right.Andisn'tittruethatyoualsosortofwereinspiredbyWarGamestosomedegree...themovie?GM:That'skindofamisquotebyJohnRonson.IsaidIhadseenthat,butIwasn'treallyinspired.WhatactuallyinspiredmewasTheHacker'sHandbookbyHugoCornwall,whoisnowPeterSommerattheLondonSchoolofEconomics.KC:Ohreally...GM:[Nods,shrugs]Uhhuh.ItwasthefirsthardinformationpublicationthatIread.InfactthefirstissuewasbannedbytheUKgovernmentandtheyhadtomakeareprintwithstufftakenout.KC:Butnowhe'sbasicallyteaching.Isn'tthatright?GM:Yeah.I'mnotsurewhathelecturesin,though.

KC:OK.Well,that'sveryinterestingthatyousortofgotintothisviasomeonewhoyoucouldcertainlysayisworkingfortheestablishmentonsomelevel,right?GM:[Nods]Uhhuh.KC:Buthewroteabookabouthacking.And"hacking"isawayoffindingoutinformationthat'skindofslangforsomebodywho'saninvestigatorbutmaybenotliked?Ornotappreciatedbythepowersthatbe?GM:Yeah.OK.Likeajournalist,hackingawayatit.KC:Right.So,canyoutellmewhatelseyoufound?BecauseIknowyou


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havesomeinformationinregardtoNon-TerrestrialOfficers.Isthatright?GM:Yeah.TherewasanExcelspreadsheetandthetitlewas"Non-TerrestrialOfficers,"andithadnames,ranks...itwasn'talonglist;itdidn'tfillthewholescreen,Idon'tthink.KC:Couldyoujustgenerallysayhowmany?Imean,ifyouweretoguess,arewetalking20,50?GM:20,maybe30.KC:Didyounoticeiftheyweremaleorfemale,bychance?GM:ThatIcan'tremember.KC:OK.Firstnamesandlastnames?GM:[pausesthoughtfully]Definitelyranks,butnothingtosayArmycaptain,orNavycaptain,orUSAirForcecaptain.KC:Ah,sothedesignationwasn'tthereasfaraswhichorganizationtheyworkedfor?GM:Yeah.Imean,thatwasthetitle"Non-TerrestrialOfficers",andobviouslyit'snotlittlegreenmen.SoIwasthinking:Whatforceisthis?AndthatphraseisnowheretobefoundontheweborinofficialArmydocumentationoranything.Andtheotherthingwasalistofship-to-shipandfleet-to-fleettransfers-andbearinmindfleet-to-fleet,thatmeansmultipleships-movementofmaterials.And

theseshipsweren't,youknow,USNavyships.Again,Idon'trememberanyofthenames,butIrememberatthetimelookingandtryingtomatchupthenames,andtherewasn'tanythingthatmatched.KC:So,now,thistheoreticallywouldhavebeenprettytopsecretinformationifindeednon-terrestrialiswhatitsoundstobe,whichisoff-world,right?GM:Yeah.Imean,Igleanedfromthatinformation...WhatIsurmisedisthatanoff-planetSpaceMarinesisbeingformed.AndifyouactuallylookatDARPA,theDefenseAdvancedResearchProjectsAgency,literatureatthemomentandinthelastfewyears,alotofgovernmentandspacecommandstuffisallaboutspacedominance.Itis

really,youknow,thefinalfrontier.Yeah,soIthinkit'snaturalforthemtowanttocontrolspaceandtobedevelopingaspace-goingforceinsecret.ButIthinkmostlikelyusingtechnologyreverse-engineeredfromETs.KC:Togetoutthere,inotherwords?GM:Yeah.Andalsotobecloaked,otherwisehowmanyothergovernmentswouldseethisgoingon.KC:So,wasthisNASA?Wherewasthis?Areyouatlibertytosay?GM:[laughs]Again,IwishIwas.Ifinditsohardtorememberallofit.It'sstrange:IcanrememberIPaddreses...but[Ican'tremember]

alotofthenames,andwhereIwaswhenIfoundtheparticularthing.IrememberthinkingatthetimethatthismustbeNASAandtheNavy,youknow,orsecretpartsthereof.SoitwaseithertheNavyorNASA.IreallythinkitwasmostlikelytheNavy.ButI'mnotentirelysure.

KC:OK,soatthispointthiskindofadiscoveryisreallystupendous,right?Imean,foranyresearchertocomeacrosssomething


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likethatisprettyintense.GM:If...[searchingforwords]...whatIsurmisetobecorrectwascorrect,yes.Anditdoeskindofpointthatway,Ithink.KC:OK.AreyoufamiliarwiththeSerpostory?We'vementionedittoyou.ButIdon'tknowifyou'veactually...becauseyou'renotontheweb,right?Youhaven'tbeenonthewebforanumberofyears?GM:That'scorrect.Yes.KC:That'spartofyour...whatdoyoucall?Probation?GM:Mybailconditions,yeah.KC:Soperhapsyoudidn'tknowaboutit,butit'sanalien-humanexchangeprogramthatsupposedlytookplacebetween,Ithinkit's1965and1978.Andthere'sbeenareleaseofinformationontheweb,andI'vegivenyouanarticleherefromTheForteanTimestokindoffillyouinonit.

Butjustoffhandandhearingaboutthis,therewere12astronautsthatactuallywenttoanotherplanet.TheplanetwascalledSerpointheZetaReticuliansystem-supposedly.Now,alotofpeoplesaythisisalldisinfo,buttheinterestingthingisthatwhenyousaynon-terrestrialofficers,there'sactuallyachancethatitcouldbetheSerpoastronautsthatthisisreferringto.Doesthatlinkupforyouatall?

GM:Well,yes,itcertainlycoulddo.Ithinkallthingsarepossibleinthesekindsofcases.Ithink...hmmm.Imean,justthefactthatit'snotbasedonEarthdoesn'tnecessarilymeanit'sorbitingtheEarth,doesit?Itcouldbebasedonanotherplanet,inanothersolarsystem.KC:Right.Becauseit'snon-terrestrial,meaningnotontheEarth.GM:Yeah.KC:So,yeah,we'retalkingaboutpeoplethatarebasedsomewhereelseinthesolarsystem-theoretically-whetherthey'reupcirclingtheplanetinaspaceshiporthey'reactuallyonanotherplanet.Anyway,it'saninterestinglink-upthat'skindofunexpected,Iwouldsay.GM:Yeah.

KC:Sowhatexactlyhappenedtoyouwhen...sortoftheblow-by-blowofwhenyougotdiscovered?GM:I'dbeenasleepforanhour.Itwasabout8o'clockinthemorningandmygirlfriendansweredthedoor.Itwasanationalhigh-techcrimeunit-fourorfiveofficers,bigpolicevan.Theycameintothehouse.Theyhadawarrantfortheaddress.MygirlfriendatthetimeandIwerelivinginherauntie'shouse.Wehadthegroundfloorandherauntiehadthetoptwofloors.Butthewarrantwasfortheentirehouse.So,unfortunately,aswellastakingmyPCandmygirlfriend'sPC,[theytook]fourotherPCsIhadtheretofixforfriends,andtheyalsowentupstairsandtookmygirlfriend'sauntie'sPC.

Thentheyseparatedusboth,anddidtheMr.NiceandMr.Nastyroutine.Like:"Weknowwhatyou'relike,mate,Iusedtodabbleabit,ifyouknowwhatImean.Oh,yougotintoNASAandthePentagon,didyou?"...tryingtogetmetoadmitthingsbeforeIwaseveninthepolicestation.SoIkeptmymouthshut,obviously.

Andthenwewentdowntothepolicestation.Iwasthereforfourhours,whichtimeIusedtocatchuponsomesleepbecauseIwasabsolutelyknackered.Thentheybroughtmeoutofthecellafter


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interviewingmygirlfriendatthetime.Theyinterviewedmeforafewhours,threatenedtogobackandarrestmygirlfriend's15yearoldcousinjustbecauseshewasatthehousethatthewarrantwasfor,andbasicallyputmeundergreatduresstoactuallysaysomethingwithoutalawyerbeingpresent.KC:Wow.GM:AndIthought:Wellbuggerthis;it'sallonmyharddriveanyway,soImayaswelljusttellthemnowsincethey'llfindoutanyway.That'sbeenmystyleeversince,myfullandfrankadmissionstotheunauthorizedaccessandthematerialIdiddownload.Butnottheridiculousclaimsofdamage.AndthenafterthatIhadtwopoliceinterviews,thesecondofwhichthepolicehadjustbeento,Ithink,Washington,theONI(OfficeofNavyInvestigation)andpossiblytheAFOSI[AirForceOfficeofSpecialInvestigations]aswell.Andtheyhadaverydifferenttonethen:very,veryserious.Andtheyaskedmemoreandmorequestions,actuallytryingtogetmetoadmittobeinginplacesthatIhadn'tbeenin,whichIfoundinteresting.AndtheninNovemberof2000-havingbeenarrestedinMarch-inNovemberof2000theDepartmentofJusticesaidtheyintendedtoapplyformyextradition.Theydidn'tactuallyapplyforitthen,butsaid

theyintendedto.Andthenwewaitedandwewaitedandwewaited.Nothinghappened.Andthencamealongthe2003SpecialUS-UKExtraditionActOnlywhichrequirednoevidencewhatsoeveronthepartoftheDepartmentofJusticetobeprovidedinordertotakeaUKcitizen.Now,wecan'tdothattoaUScitizen.You'reprotectedbyyourConstitution.AndthistreatyhadonlybeensignedbytheBritish,notsignedbytheAmericans.400peoplearecurrentlyunderthreatofbeingextraditedwiththis.KC:Arethey?GM:Yes.AndAmericahasextraditionagreementswith119countriesand

onlyBritainandIrelandagreetoextraditeoftheirownnationalswithnoevidence.It'saridiculoussituation.KC:AndIguessthere'salsotheGuantanamoBaysortofspecteroutthere.GM:Yeah.Someonesaidtome...TheysaidthefactthatmostpeopleinGuantanamoBayhaven'tevenhadtrialsyet,andthey'renotproventobeterrorists,althoughI'msuremanyofthemmaybe...whereasIhaveallegedlydirectlyattackedAmericanmilitarysites.So...youknow....[despondentshrug]...soundslikeagoodone-waytickettome.Andalsothefactthatit'smilitaryordernumberone,whereyouhaveasecretmilitarytribunal,norightofappeal,norightof

comment.Theydeclarenationalsecurity,andthewholethingisinablackholefromthenon.KC:So,youhavealawyer.Isthatright?GM:Absolutely.Yes.AndIgetlegalaidhere.BecauseI'munemployed,wegetfreelegaladvice.KC:OK.Idon'tknowwhetheryou'reatlibertytosayastohowthey'regoingtobesupportingyouinthis?GM:[pauses]Umm...WefeltthatDistrictJudgeNicholasEvanswhoruledinmylasthearingdidn'treallyproperlyaddressallthemain


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pointswebroughtup.I'mnotsureifhe'sreallyqualifiedorexperiencedenoughtoproperlyaddressthemintheHouse,andifthat'swhyhedidn't.Andsowefeelthatwe'vegotabetterchanceontheappealofgettingthingschanged.Alsowe'reactuallytryingtogetthelawchanged.It'snotjustaboutme.It'saboutmanyotherpeople,andthefactthatyoucanbeextraditedwithoutevidence.Sowe'retryingtogetjudicialreviewsinmotionandputsomepressureon,andwe'vegotpetitionsgoing,etcetera.KC:OK.Andyouhaveawebsite.Isn'tthatright?GM:That'sright.Yes.Freegary.org.uk.KC:OK.Verygood.SomaybeyoucantellmewhatitisthatyouthoughtwhenyousawtheNon-TerrestrialOfficerlist?GM:IthoughtWOW,I'mreallyontosomethinghere.[Kerrylaughs]Butthat,alongwiththematerialtransferthing,weretheonlytwothingsIfound.Bearinmindthat99%ofthetimeyoufindnothing,absolutelynothing.Iwastrawlingthesystemforyears.ThereweretimesIdidknowwhereIwas,butitwasvague.IknewIwasinthePentagon,obviously.Butalotofthetime,whenyou'refirstgettingyourentryintothefringesofthesystemstotryandobtaindeeperentrythatleadstocontrol,you'rekindofshootingblindatfirst.Andthere'sachapoverhere,PeterWarren,aninvestigative

journalist,whotellsmethathewentovertoAmericaandinterviewedthetopbrassandsaid,youknow,tohisface:Whyareyoupursuingthisguysovehemently?Whyisthisthefirstextradition-hackingcaseever?Andsomeoneapparentlysaidtohim:"It'snotthepersonorwhathe'sdoneandwhathe'ssaying,it'swherehe'sbeenandwhathemayhaveseenthathe'snotsaying."KC:OK,well,let'spursuethatforasecond.Istheresomestuffthatyouhaven'trevealedtothepress?Forexample,thatyoumighthavecomeacross?Youknow,sortofyouraceinthehole,somecardsyou're

holding?GM:Iftherewas,Iwouldn'ttellyou.[laughs]KC:Oh,really.OK.OK.Fairenough.Andthere'sasensethatifyouhaveinformation,thatitwouldbestowedsomewheresafe.Because,look,peopledisappeareveryday,isn'tthatright?GM:Uhhuh.KC:Sohopefullyyou'veprotectedyourselfonsomelevel.GM:[pauses,thoughtful]I'mnotgoingtodisappear.KC:Yeah?OK.Soinasense,areyouactuallyconsideringyourselfabitofawarrior?You'refightingabattle?GM:No.No.I'mcertainlyinconflict,but...KC:WhatImeanis,inasenseyou'refightingabattlefordisclosure,whenall'ssaidanddone,intheactsthatyou'vetaken

partin,isn'tthatright?GM:IguessIam.ButIgetveryimpatientwiththiscloakofgrandnessthatalotofpeopleinthisfieldtendtocloakthemselvesin.[Kerrylaughs]Forme,it'sjustajobthathastobedoneandithastobedonepragmatically.Idon'treallyseemyselfasanything.IjustwanttobeatthisrapandthencarryonfollowingUFOdisclosure,butobviouslythroughlegitimatechannelsthistime.KC:OK.So,justoutofcuriosity,haveyouthoughtofwritingabook?


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GM:Ihadn'tthoughtofit,andthenJohnWiley&Sonsapproachedmeandtheygotmetowritetheblurb,youknow,thenewbookproposaldocument.Andwritesomestufffortheback.Youknow:GaryMcKinnontellsusthis,that,andtheother.Andtheysaid:Ohgreat,soundsreallygood,wow.AndthentheyhadameetingwiththeirlegaldepartmentfromStateside-it'sanAmericanbasedcompany,ultimately-and[snapshisfingers]thatwasit.KC:Ohwow,theypulled...Well,I'vegotsomepeopleinHollywoodthatmightbeinterested.Howdoyoufeelaboutthat?GM:[Garysmilesbroadly,gestures,twothumbsup]Yep!AslongasIcanstayinthiscountryandfilmit.KC:Oh,verygood.OK.So,asfarasyourbackground...You'renotreallyaskilled,Idon'tknow...educatedITguy,isthatcorrect?DoIhavethatright?GM:Iamskilled,butI'vegotnoformalqualifications.KC:Butwhenyoustartedthissortofsearch,hadyouworkedinthefield?GM:OhYeah.Yeah.Ihadmyfirstcomputerat14,learnedtoprograminBasic,thenlearnedtoprograminSamba,andthenIdidn'tdoanycomputingworkforalongtimebutitwasahobby...graphicsprogramming,OpenGL,artificialintelligence,gamesprogramming.AndthenIwenttostudycomputingbutfoundIhadalackofabilityat

highlevelmaths,soIcouldn'tevenstartacomputersciencedegree.SotheybumpedmedowntoaHigherNationalDiplomaandIstillhadtroublewithhighlevelmaths,andsoIhadtoleavethatalltogetherandjustwenttoworkinit.Igotmyfirstjobwithnoexperiencewhatsoeverapartfrommyownhobbyistexperience,justinstallingandconfiguringWindows.Andfromthenonyougetanothercontract,getmoreexperience,domorestuff.Andatthattimeemployersrespectedexperiencemorethanpiecesofpaper.Ifoundlaterontheystartedtorespectthepiecesofpapermore,butIcouldsitnexttotenguyswithMCSEsandwhatever,andbebetterthanallofthemputtogether

becauseof20-oddyearsofexperiencebehindme.KC:Great.Soyou'vedonesomegameandartificialintelligenceworkaswell?GM:Notforwork,forpleasure.Geneticalgorithms,fuzzylogic,thatsortofstuff.KC:Fabulous.AndIunderstandyou'realsointographics?Youhaveabackgroundinthataswell?GM:Yeah.I'musingOpenGLasawaytolearnC++programminglanguagebecauseyougetalotofvisualfeedback.It'saveryrewardingwaytolearnsomethingthat'squitedry,really.KC:OK.Cool.Soyou'reveryself-taughtinalotofways.GM:Mm.

KC:NowI'mjustcurious,haveyouhadthe"hackercommunity"comeoutforyouinanyway?GM:Well,Iwasneverpartofthescene,sotospeak.IdidcontactacoupleofchapswhomIsawinanewsgrouppostingwithwhatseemedlikevery,verywell-informedandknowledgeablecommentsonmycase,andoneofthosechapsisnowtheguywhorunsthefreegarywebsite.He's,youknow,veryknowledgeable,veryworthwhile,very,verycaring-oneofthesepeoplethatseemstobesacrificinghisentireselffor


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thegoodofeveryoneelse.AndI'vereadsomestuffthatlotsofhackersareangry.I'vereadthathackershavesaid:IfGarygoestojailinAmerica,we'llhackthebejesusoutoftheAmericangovernment.[Kerrylaughs][Garyshakesfingeradmonishinglyatcamera]Pleasedon'tdothat,chaps.KC:Doyouhaveotherpeoplesortofintherebattingforyou?Likefamily?Friends?GM:Mymum'satowerofstrength,youknow.ButI'mluckyenoughtohavefourparents...Ispeaktomystepdadandmyrealdad.Andmystepmum,notquitesomuchbecauseshe'sstilllivinginScotland.Butyes,friendsareincrediblysupportive,havingtoldmetostopdoingwhatIwasdoing.Theydidn'tknowexactlywhatIwasdoing,buttheyknewIwasinplacesIshouldn'thavebeen.Andtheywouldalwayssay:It'sverysillyforyoutodothat.Andtheywouldtrytodiscouragemefromdoingit.AndthentheywereveryangrywhenitfirstcameoutthatIhadbeencaught.But,yeah,they'reincrediblysupportive.AndIthinkthebestthingiswhenwejustmakejokesaboutit.Becauseit'squitedarksometimes,thinking:God,Icouldbefacing60

yearsinjail!Soit'sgoodtokeepasenseofhumor.KC:OK.Youknow,whenyoudoinvestigationfortwoyears,I'msurethatalotofitsortofgoesintothebackofyourheadsomewhere.I'mjustcuriouswhetherornot-ofcourseIdon'tknowwhatyou'rereadinglatelyoranything-butifyoueverfindthingsthatcorroboratewhatyoumighthavecomeacross.Thatsortofthing.GM:Ah,yes.Imeanmystoryinitself-justthehackingstory-Ididn'tfindout...Well,therewereonlyafewitems.There'snothingmorethatI'vegotonthat.That'sallthereis.TheExcelspreadsheetsandthepicture.Butyou'reabsolutelyright:havingreadlotsofstuffrecently,I'vehadsomanypeoplegetincontactwithme,andthankstoallthemforsendingmebooksandDVDs.Andbeing

unemployedandstuff,it'sbeennicetohavesomethingforyourbraintochewover,youknow.IdidrealizetherewereplacesI'vebeen,whichIdidn'tknowatthetimebutwefoundout,areapparentlyhot-bedsofUFOactivity-ChinaLake...KC:Wellcertainly,Iguess,JohnsonSpaceCenter?[laughs]GM:Well,yeah,absolutelyJohnsonSpaceCenter.AcoupleofNSAmachinesatFortMeadeaswell,actually.Yeah,thestuff...IdothinkIprobablywasinplacesthatweremoresensitivethanIrealizedatthetime.Iprobablymissedawholelotofstuff,youknow?KC:Soyoudidkeywordsearches.Isn'tthatright?GM:Well,no.Onceyou'reactually...Youhavetobecome...It'snogoodjustbeinganAdministratorofthemachine.Youhavetobecome

whattheycallintheMicrosoftnetworkthe"DomainAdministrator",soyou'vegotfullcontroloftheentirenetwork.Onceyou'vegotthat,youcanrunaprogram.IusedonecalledLandSearch,atthetime,whichjustsearcheseverysinglecomputerandpicksupfilesofcertaintypes.Butunfortunatelyatthattimeitwasn'tgoodenoughtoliftthekeywordswithinthefile,soIhadtogetcreativewithfilenames.KC:Wow.Soyoucouldhavemissedsomethingthatwastopsecretjust


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becauseitwascalledsomeinnocuousnamethatdidn'ttriggeranyidea?GM:Yeah.AndalsoIbasicallyrealized...TherewasonenetworkIwason-Iwon'tsaywhich-wherebecauseofthetechniqueof...RatherthangoingaroundwithaCDandinstallingWindowsoneverymachineindividually,youcreatewhat'scalledanimageandthenyoushootthatimageacrossthenetworkontoeachmachine.Onthisparticularnetworktheimagehadbeenmadewithablankadministratorpassword,soIhad5,000machinesallwithblankadministratorpasswords.Whatwasthequestionthere?KC:Howdoyousearchsomethinglikethat?GM:Ohright,yeah.That'swhatIstartedtorealize.It'sjusttoohugeajobforoneperson.Ithought:Cripes,itwouldtakemeyearsandyearsandyears.Anditdidbecomeboringbecausemostofthetimeyoufindnothing.Andalsomyrelationshipwasgoingdownthepan.Ileftmyjob.Iwasgoingdownthepan,wasn'teatingproperly,wasn'twashingproperly.Itwasaproperunhealthyobsession.KC:Soyouwerereallymotivated,though,onacertainlevel.GM:Yeah.IthoughtIwasdoingsomethingthatwouldultimatelybenefitalotofpeople,so...KC:Well,Ithinktherearealotofpeopleouttherethatwouldsupporttherighttoknowonacertainlevel-certainlyfreeenergy.

Andlook,ifwe'resendingofficersoff-world,thenwhatarewedoingusingthingsliketheSpaceShuttle,ancientmachinerythat'sblowingupinspace?GM:Yeah.Ithinkwhatyou'resayingabouthackingtofindstuffout,IthinkIwouldn'tadviseanyonetodoit,oranythinglikethat.Buttherehavebeenplentyoftimesinhistorywhereyoucanonlygainfreedombybreakingthelaw...Jesushimself,IrememberintheBible,tellingpeopleoffwherepoorpeoplewerestealingfoodoffthetableand,youknow,theywerecuttingtheirhandsoff.Thingslikethat.They'repoor,they'restarving.Letthemstealalittlebit.How'sitgoingtohurtyou?KC:Right.Youknow,doyouenvisionafutureforyourself?

GM:I'dlikethiswholethingtobedropped,oratleasttobetriedinmyowncountry.That'sthefirstthing.That'sobviouslytakingupalotofmyenergyatthemoment.Beyondthat,I'mabsolutelyfedupwithfixingpeople'scomputers.[Kerrylaughs]I'dliketofollowmysingingambition,whichiswheremymainpassionlies-singingandsong-writing.KC:Oh...great.OK!GM:I'msickofmachinery,andtechnology,andfastliving,andprofit.KC:OK.So,isthereanythingelsethatyou'dwanttotellpeopleaboutthisexperience?Aboutwhereyouwereat,thosetwoyears?Obviouslyit'safewyearslaterandyou'rekindofolderandwiser,butyouknow,isthereamessage[Garysmiles]withinwhatyouwere

doingbackthen?Ifyoucanplaceyourselfbackthen.GM:Yeah.[looksdirectlyintocameraandspeaksseriously]AlwaysListentoYourGirlfriend.[laughs]KC:[laughs]OK.Ihearthat.Verygood!OK.Well,thisisKerryCassidy,andwe'vebeentalkingherewithGaryMcKinnonandhavingabeer[Garyraiseshisglasstothecamera]outinthebackofalocalpubhereinLondon,ontheoutskirts.Isn'tthatright?GM:That'scorrect.


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KC:AndIdohaveoneotherquestion.I'mwondering.Doyouthink,tothisday,thatyou'vegotorganizationsthatareusingthatkindofadministrativeblankpassword,duplicatingdesktops?GM:Right.well,I'mnotsure,butImean...IsittheGovernmentAccountingOfficeoverthere?OrtheGeneralAccountingOffice?Theyputoutareporteveryyearpraisingfederalsecurityinthecriticalnationalinfrastructure.Ireadthateveryyear,andeveryyearitdoesn'tgetanybetter.SoIthink...I'dstakeaheftyamountofmoneythatifIwentanddidthatagaintoday,youcouldprobablydothesamethingagain.Yeah.KC:Sowhatthatactuallymeansisthattherecouldeasilybesomepeopleouttherethatarecomingacrossthesamethingsyouare.GM:Right,Ireckon.KC:They'rejustnotgettingcaught.GM:Yeah.[shrugs,smiles]KC:Allright.Now,justintermsoftheETsituation,didyoueverhaveasightingyourself?Orhaveyoueverhad,youknow,anyinteractionswithotherraces,otherbeingsfromotherplanets?GM:No.IsawsomethingoncewhenIwasabout,maybe11or12,Ithink.Itwasjustalightinthesky.Itwasnighttimeanditwasn'tmovinginastraightline.Itwasmovingveryerratically[drawsside-to-sidezigzaglineintheair]-inageneraldirection,butitwasmovingveryerraticallysidetoside.AndIthought:It'snota

meteorandit'snotasatellite.ButIdidn'tknowwhatitwas.Itwasn'tanaeroplane.Thelateralmotionwasquitefast.KC:OK.GM:Andmystepfatherhadseensomestuff,andhaddreamsaboutUFOs.HelivedinFalkirk,nearBonnybridge,andBonnybridgeisnowquiteahotspotforUFOsightings.Andhewasasci-fifan,gotmeintosci-fiwhenIwasyoung,andthatkindofsowedtheseedofthatkindofstuff.Andalso,God,justthethoughtofmeetingbeingsfromsomewhereelse!Thatwouldbebetterthanswimmingwithdolphins,wouldn'tit?[smiles]KC:[laughs]Goodpoint.So,didyoudoanyinvestigationofyourowngovernment,orareyouatlibertytosay?

GM:Letmeputitthisway:ourgovernmentsecurityisvery,very,very,verygood.KC:Ohreally?Howaboutthat.GM:Yeah.Butthenagain,so'stheCIA,inLangley.That'svery,very,very,verygoodaswell.KC:ButyouwereabletogetintothePentagonandyouwereabletogetintotheNSA?GM:Yeah,butthatwasn'tviabreakingtheirsecuritymechanismsassuch.Thatwasviaaveryoldtechniquecalled"trustrelationshipexploitation".Youstartoffin,say,aNavylogisticssitewhichisn'twellprotected.Andbecauseyou'realreadycomingfromadot-mil

internetaddress,thenalltheotherdot-milstrustyou.Soyougraduallygoupthehillandgetindeeper.KC:OK.Huh.Sowereyoureadingemails?Duringthistime,wereyouabletocomeacrossthatkindofthing?GM:No.Imadeitapersonalrulenottoreadpeople'semails.KC:Oh.That'sinteresting.GM:Imean,Iwaslookingfordocumentation,notcommuniqus.Onceyoustartreadingemails,Crikey,whatalotofdatatosiftthrough...KC:Right.WhatabouttheMajestic...areyoufamiliarwiththeMajesticwebsitewithMajesticdocuments?Topsecretdocuments,some


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ofwhichhavebeenexposed?GM:Yeah.I'veheardaboutthat.See,atthetimeIwasn'treallyintotheUFOscene.Iwasnotreallyintheact,yousee.ThereislotsofstuffIwasn'tawareof.AndifIhad'vebeen,Iprobablywouldhavedoneabetterjobandgotmoreoutofit.ButasfarasIknowtheMajesticthingsaren'tproventoberealorfalseyet,arethey.ButIdon'tliketotrustanythingthatIdon'tknowisabsolutefact,whichiswhyIwenttofindoutformyselfratherthan,youknow...KC:Allright.Well,thankyouverymuch,Gary.Thishasbeengreat.Andwe'regoingtotrytocallJerryPippinnow,who'shelpedsetthisupforus.Andwehopetohearalotmorefromyou.We'dlovetoknowwhatyou'recarryinginyourbackpocket,sotospeak.[Garysmiles]Ihopethedaywillcomewhendisclosureallowsyoutoactuallyrevealasmuchasyoumayhavecomeacross.GM:Well,Ididn'tsayIwascarryinganythinginmybackpocket![laughs]KC:Absolutely.Iunderstand.Butyougottaunderstandthat,youknow,there'salwaysthequestion...andit'safascinatingsubject.

Allright.Well,thankyouverymuch.

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Project Camelot Gary McKinnon Transcript

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