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Pennsylvania Restorative Practices Project (PaRPP) Complete Transcript of Restorative Circle, 8/24/2010 © 2010 International Institute for Restorative Practices Page 1 of 51 Part 1 In the first go-round each participant provided his/her name, current title and agency, and if relevant, previous roles as they relate to the children and youth and juvenile justice systems in Pennsylvania. Bob Costello Good morning, everybody. Thank you for being here. Circle Facilitator; We're going to hold a series of circle go-arounds for our discussion today. Director of Training & I'll ask some questions. We always use a talking piece. Consulting, International It's usually a little rubber ball. Today, it's a microphone. Institute for Restorative So, we'll just pass that around the circle as we go. Practices Graduate Any time we do the go-around, the person with the talking piece – School in this case, the microphone – will be speaking. You're welcome to respond to people, but we would ask that you wait until it's your turn, as opposed to having the discussion. And we find that a remarkable decorum occurs as we just wait our turns and give you an opportunity to think about your responses. You can certainly pass any time you want to. On any of the questions, if there's questions or other comments, we can go around more than once. I'm Bob Costello. I'm the director of training and consulting for the International Institute for Restorative Practices. I've been asked to run this circle for two reasons. One is because I have a lot of experience running these sort of circles. And the other is because I'm several steps removed from the work that you do, so I don't have a vested interest in the discussion or the outcome. And that allows me to operate as a facilitator, instead of someone who's super-interested. Not that I'm not interested. If you have a mobile phone with you, if you could put it on "silent" or turn it off, we'd appreciate it. We'll take a break a little later on, and I'll remind you when we come back. So, the first go-around question is if you could give your name, your current title and agency or department and – if it's relevant – your previous role in working with children and youth or juvenile probation in the state of Pennsylvania. I'm going to go to my left. Ted Wachtel My name is Ted Wachtel. I'm the president of President, International the International Institute for Restorative Practices graduate school. Institute for Restorative I was previously involved in two direct-service agencies Practices Graduate that I started back in the early '70s. School; Founder, But have not been involved for about a decade, Community Service and serve on the boards of those organizations. Foundation & Buxmont So, I'm still interested in children and youth and juvenile probation. Academy Chuck Songer Hi. I'm Chuck Songer. I'm the executive director for the Executive Director, Children and Youth Administrators' Association, Pa. Children & Youth which is affiliated with the County Commissioners' Association Administrators' across the river in Harrisburg. Association Prior to that, I spent just under 25 years at Adams County Children and Youth Services – starting as a caseworker trainee and working my way all the way "down" to administrator.

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Pennsylvania Restorative Practices Project (PaRPP) Complete Transcript of Restorative Circle, 8/24/2010

© 2010 International Institute for Restorative Practices Page 1 of 51

Part 1 In the first go-round each participant provided his/her name, current title and agency, and if relevant, previous roles as they relate to the children and youth and juvenile justice systems in Pennsylvania.

Bob Costello Good morning, everybody. Thank you for being here. Circle Facilitator; We're going to hold a series of circle go-arounds for our discussion today. Director of Training & I'll ask some questions. We always use a talking piece. Consulting, International It's usually a little rubber ball. Today, it's a microphone. Institute for Restorative So, we'll just pass that around the circle as we go. Practices Graduate Any time we do the go-around, the person with the talking piece – School in this case, the microphone – will be speaking. You're welcome to respond to people, but we would ask that you wait until it's your turn, as opposed to having the discussion. And we find that a remarkable decorum occurs as we just wait our turns and give you an opportunity to think about your responses. You can certainly pass any time you want to. On any of the questions, if there's questions or other comments, we can go around more than once. I'm Bob Costello. I'm the director of training and consulting for the International Institute for Restorative Practices. I've been asked to run this circle for two reasons. One is because I have a lot of experience running these sort of circles. And the other is because I'm several steps removed from the work that you do, so I don't have a vested interest in the discussion or the outcome. And that allows me to operate as a facilitator, instead of someone who's super-interested. Not that I'm not interested. If you have a mobile phone with you, if you could put it on "silent" or turn it off, we'd appreciate it. We'll take a break a little later on, and I'll remind you when we come back. So, the first go-around question is if you could give your name, your current title and agency or department and – if it's relevant – your previous role in working with children and youth or juvenile probation in the state of Pennsylvania. I'm going to go to my left. Ted Wachtel My name is Ted Wachtel. I'm the president of President, International the International Institute for Restorative Practices graduate school. Institute for Restorative I was previously involved in two direct-service agencies Practices Graduate that I started back in the early '70s. School; Founder, But have not been involved for about a decade, Community Service and serve on the boards of those organizations. Foundation & Buxmont So, I'm still interested in children and youth and juvenile probation. Academy Chuck Songer Hi. I'm Chuck Songer. I'm the executive director for the Executive Director, Children and Youth Administrators' Association, Pa. Children & Youth which is affiliated with the County Commissioners' Association Administrators' across the river in Harrisburg. Association Prior to that, I spent just under 25 years at Adams County Children and Youth Services – starting as a caseworker trainee and working my way all the way "down" to administrator.

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Frankly, the best preparation for public child welfare was the time I spent in the Marine Corps. [Laughter.] Shara Saveikis Good morning, everyone. I'm Shara Saveikis. Executive Director, I currently work at Westmoreland County Children's Bureau Westmoreland County as the executive director. It's a county children and youth agency. Children's Bureau I've had 18 years of my professional career all in child welfare. I started off in the private sector, working in a residential facility. And then worked at Monroe County Children and Youth Services for six years out east. And then worked for the Department of Public Welfare, Office of Children, Youth and Families for five years at the state, at western region office. And then in my current position for the past two-and-a-half years. So I have the combination of the private, public, state, local experience. And I'm glad to be here. Don Tangora Hi. I'm Don Tangora. I'm the CEO of Edison Court, Incorporated. CEO, Edison Court, Inc.; I spent a number of years working in juvenile probation Former Supervisor, Bucks and now as a provider. County Juvenile Probation I think what I enjoyed most, looking back, outside of client contact, was program development and policy – something that I was pretty engaged in, and enjoyed traveling about the state. Although, it's nice now to be in one place every day and seeing familiar faces who aren't as angry as some of my clients used to be. It's nice. [Laughter.] And I look forward to a good discussion today. Judy Happ Good morning. My name is Judy Happ. President, Youth Services I'm the president of the Youth Services Alliance of Pennsylvania, Alliance of Pennsylvania; which is an organization advocating for the providers Former Dauphin County of children and youth service in Pennsylvania. Juvenile Probation Officer It's been 20-something years. I actually started years ago with the Juvenile Court Judge's Commission when I was an intern in college, and had some really great experiences with the provider community that way. I was a probation officer in Dauphin County for several years. And then moved to working in the provider community, first as a counselor and then becoming the executive director of that agency. Almitra Sutton-Bey Good morning. I am Almitra Sutton-Bey Special Project Manager, from Philadelphia County Children and Youth. I've been there for 13 years. Philadelphia County I work in the commissioner's office as a special project manager. Children & Youth And I'm very excited to be here today for this discussion. Thank you. Anne Shenberger Good morning. I'm Anne Shenberger. Former Southeast Region Currently, I'm working as a consultant Director, Children & to the International Institute for Restorative Practices. Youth, Pa. Department of I have a couple of other projects that I'm working on. Public Welfare; I'm also the part-time executive director of the CASA Program in Delaware County. Former President & CEO, Before I took on those two positions, I was the southeast regional director Philadelphia Safe and of Children and Youth for the Department of Public Welfare for over 30 years. Sound Also, for a portion of that time, I was the bureau director for the state program for child welfare. I'm delighted to see all my friends again, and I hope I have a chance to chat more with everyone. And I'm looking forward to a great experience this morning.

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Susan Blackburn Good morning. I'm Susie Blackburn. Balanced and Restorative I'm the balance and restorative justice specialist with Justice Specialist, the Juvenile Court Judges' Commission. Juvenile Court Judges’ I work out of the Center for Juvenile Justice Training and Research Commission; Former in Shippensburg University. I've been there about 13 years. Director, Somerset County Prior to that, I was a director in Somerset County, as was Chuck. Probation and Youth I loved your reference – that was great. Services In Somerset County we had – at that time – a few agencies under one administration. We had juvenile probation, adult probation, children and youth services and regional training center. So I had experience in many, many different arenas just within Somerset County. I was there for 19 years. I'm really excited to be here. I think pulling a circle together of this magnitude is quite a challenge, and I believe that we're going to really move some rivers today. Bruce Grim Good morning. My name is Bruce Grim. Associate Director, Pa. I'm with the Pennsylvania Council of Children, Youth and Family Services. Council of Children, Youth I've been an associate director for the past three years. & Family Services; Prior to that, I was unsuccessfully retired for just over a year. [Laughter.] Former Chief, Berks Prior to that, I spent a 35-year career in juvenile probation in Berks County, County Juvenile Probation culminating with being the chief of that agency. Jay Deppeler Good morning, everyone. I'm Jay Deppeler. Managing Partner, I'm managing partner of Del Val Forensics in Bucks County. Delaware Valley Forensics I've worked with children and youth in the southeastern region Psychological Services, of Pennsylvania for about the last 13 years, starting in Lehigh County. Bucks County [To Paul Werrell] I don't know if you remember me or not, but I was there very briefly. Did some work in Northampton County and landed in Bucks County. I'm excited to see what we can talk about today. To move rivers, or mountains, if possible. Paul Werrell Good morning. My name is Paul Werrell. Associate Professor of I'm currently a consultant with a local foster care agency Criminal Justice, Cedar in Lehigh County and an associate professor of criminal justice Crest College, Allentown; at Cedar Crest College in Allentown. Former Chief, Lehigh And, like Bruce, I was unsuccessfully retired for a little bit after – County Juvenile Probation how many years, Bruce, did you say? Bruce Grim Too many! Paul Werrell Yeah, too many for me, too. As a former probation officer and chief of juvenile probation in Lehigh County, in Allentown. Craig Adamson Good morning. I'm Craig Adamson. Executive Director, I'm the executive director of Community Service Foundation. Community Service We're a nonprofit organization that works with youth – Foundation & Buxmont mostly teenage youth – in mostly the southeastern part of Pennsylvania. Academy I've been with Community Service Foundation for 15 years now. I pretty much started my career there. Before that, I did a little work with juvenile probation through my internship and things like that. Definitely a justice perspective.

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Thanks for having me. Jonathan Henning Good morning. I'm Jonathan Henning. Chief Relations Officer, I am the chief relations officer at Bethany Children's Home, Bethany Children’s Home which is a private, nonprofit residential group home facility. We also provide emergency shelter and foster care and independent living services to teens, predominantly, throughout central and southeastern Pennsylvania. When people are talking about history and different experiences – I've really been in the private, nonprofit world my entire life. Prior to Bethany, where I've been about 17 years, I spent 15 years with a foster care agency before that. And I have a have a long history in that I kind of was brought against my will to Bethany Children's Home by my father, who was my predecessor at Bethany. So I actually grew up in the nonprofit arena. And I'm looking forward to an interesting day. Sean DeYoung My name is Sean DeYoung. Pennsylvania State I'm the Pennsylvania state director for the Bair Foundation. Director, The Bair The Bair Foundation is a national children's services organization. Foundation Primarily we've done Christian foster care across the country. In Pennsylvania we provide foster care services at Option Services and in-home family services I've been in Pennsylvania, working in social services now for almost eight years. I worked in residential care when I first came here. And then, for more than half of my career, I worked in south Florida, in their children's services programs. Mainly West Palm Beach. I worked for Father Flannigan's Boys Town for a number of years. But, you know, the problems are the same – either there or here. I'm excited to be part of this group, and thank you for inviting me to come. Bob Costello Thank you, everybody.

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Part 2 Participants addressed the question: "How would you characterize the dissonance

among state, county and private agencies responsible for providing services for children and youth in Pennsylvania?"

Bob Costello The next question I'd like to ask is: Circle Facilitator; How would you characterize the dissonance Director of Training & among state, county and private agencies responsible for Consulting, International providing services for children and youth in Pennsylvania? Institute for Restorative I'll read it again. How would you characterize the dissonance Practices Graduate among state, county and private agencies responsible for School providing services for children and youth in Pennsylvania? Ted Wachtel About 40 years ago I started working with young people in Pennsylvania. President, International I worked first in the public schools, Institute for Restorative moved to working with juvenile probation Practices Graduate and children and youth agencies by starting School; Founder, a couple of nonprofit service providers, Community Service and left there about a decade ago Foundation & Buxmont to start the International Institute for Restorative Practices. Academy And I guess – since I left, particularly – I've been dismayed and saddened by the deterioration in the relationships between state, county and private agencies in Pennsylvania. I've heard people describe the current situation as toxic. And I think, to some extent, "toxic" is represented by the two empty chairs we have today. We made a very concerted effort to invite the Department of Public Welfare, particularly OCYF [Office of Children, Youth and Families] – offered alternate dates, the opportunity to send alternate representatives – and they declined. On a different note, I was shocked as we approached juvenile probation chiefs and found – although I didn't, of course, speak to all the chiefs – people asserted that there is a widespread feeling that if they should participate in a circle like this there was a fear of reprisal in the form of arbitrary budget cuts by OCYF. I don't know how a children and youth system can operate that way. I just can't believe it. So, all the more reason for having proposed this circle. The idea was simply to get a representative group – a small group because the circle had to be manageable in size. And we proposed to videotape it because we wanted to share the discussion with lots of other people. I'm very hopeful that the format and the decorum will provide for a really honest but polite discussion of issues that affect all of us. And I guess my real hope is that we'll move toward resolving some of these issues. And this is the first of what I hope will be many events that can help change the environment in the children and youth and juvenile justice system here in Pennsylvania. And thanks for coming. Chuck Songer Thanks, Ted. I'm old. Could you repeat the question?

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Bob Costello Certainly. Chuck Songer No, I'm just teasing! [Laughter.] Executive Director, I think there are a variety of things underlying this. Pa. Children & Youth Like Ted, I've been in the system here since the early '70s or so. Administrators' And I've seen a lot of administrations come and go, Association a lot of crises come and go. But I think what may be different in the last couple of years is the amount of hyperbole and just a real lack of trust among the major players. I would certainly take some ownership of that, in terms of sometimes I'm part of the solution, sometimes I'm part of the problem. But more often than not, I think I'm on the "good side of the Force" here. You see this – and I think it's a national thing – you certainly see it in Washington, you see it in Harrisburg. Scarcity brings about pretty strange behavior in folks and in systems, even if it's perceived scarcity. I think we need to work on the trust piece. And I think we need to give up a little bit of what we think might be our version of the truth and try to come up with some way to operate, because this is clearly not working. And it doesn't bode well for the families that we serve. Shara Saveikis From my personal experience and professional experience, Executive Director, I'm saddened to hear your statements Westmoreland County because I feel from a systems perspective that Children's Bureau that may be accurate of how some systems feel. But personally, in my position, I don't feel that way. I felt supported about being here. I didn't feel there were any repercussions of coming here today or saying what I think and feel. And that is concerning if individuals or different departments actually feel that way. I feel that I have a good relationship with our provider network and with the state. But even though we share a similar mission and vision of serving kids, I think that it's very separate of how we do that and what our roles are. And I think that has been more defined over the last couple of years. So I think a lot of the relationships that we need to work on – like Chuck mentioned with trust – a lot of it comes around with just having different and separate roles. The state's role, the county's role and the provider's role, even though we're all serving kids. Seeing what our individual roles are and trying to have that and share that common vision. So that we have more commonalities rather than more issues or concerns, and trying to work through those.

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Don Tangora How much time do I have? [Laughter.] CEO, Edison Court, Inc.; Want to talk about toxic… Former Supervisor, Bucks I'll preface this by saying I began my career working County Juvenile Probation for county commissioners, as an administrative assistant out of college. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I didn't know why they hired me. A guy came up to me and said, "What flavor are you?" One of the bosses. I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Well, like what party are you?" I said, "Well, I'm a Democrat." He goes, "Well, we're all Republicans. How did you get in here?" He said, "Eh, most young people are Democrats anyway." So they let me work there. And for years I maintained nice relationships with our commissioners. Even when I went to work for the court and they said to me, "Don't spend too much time over there." And I've been called a "commissioner's boy" by the judges because I was too friendly there. But ironically, when I used to work on the county side, I remember an incident with Ted Wachtel that he probably doesn't recall. Actually, I think I had switched over – I was on the court side. And they brought me over and they said, "Hey, that Wachtel guy is driving a Mercedes. You better check that guy out." I said, "Really?" They go, "Yeah. And this Pete Stallory "with Community Commitment – he's driving a Cadillac." And I think what that spoke to is a distrust that people had that, "What were the providers doing with the money?" Well, as it turns out, if I recall – Ted, correct me, it's your history – that your father had passed away and you had inherited an older Mercedes. Now, at least that's the story that I told them. I don't know if that was true or not. Ted Wachtel Fortunately, he hasn't passed away. Don Tangora Good! But he gave you, or somehow – Ted Wachtel He loaned me his car for the day. Don Tangora Oh, was that it? [Laughter.] So, that's beautiful. And when I called Pete Stallory, he said – maybe that's the confusion – his wife had passed away, who he had been divorced from. And he said, "It's an old-model car." But the point being that there's distrust. Recently I attended a funeral of a colleague, a deputy chief probation officer in adult probation who had passed away – retired and passed away. A young man, from my perspective. And I ran into a former executive director of an agency who had recently retired. She said, "How are things going?" And I said, "Well, we worked something out with "the commissioners where they would fund something "for this one agency if the agency would just ask for it." We'd been at it for years.

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And I said, "But they've decided not to ask for the money, "even though we thought we'd gotten it approved." And she said, "Well, you know what that person said to me recently? I don't want to make millionaires out of providers.'" I'm like, "So, that's where we're at, right?" I recall working probation when Ted started his program, when people started – like many of us – we watched programs grow, we sat in rooms together with them. I thought I knew a lot more about running programs when I was in probation than I do after having run one. That was my perspective. I thought I could tell these guys really how to run a program and what I really knew. But it turns out I didn't know nearly as much as I did. And I think there's a great deal of distrust in the agency. And I agree it's in the community. Recently we had a community presentation. We wanted to move three adolescent sex offenders who had completed several years of treatment into a home in the community. We went to the chief of police to tell him what we were going to do. And he said, "Oh, I heard you're bringing sex offenders "into our community." I said, "Well, it's not quite that way." Someone in the probation department, we suspect, had emailed the home and school associations. So we agreed to have a public meeting. 350 people came and screamed – it was like a Tea Party meeting! I felt like Arlen Specter or something. [Laughter.] People said horrible things to us. I mean cursing and calling us liars. One of my colleagues was at the meeting. He said, "Look, I have my phone here. There are 109 Megan's Law offenders "within a couple miles of this place. Are you worried about that?" They're like, "No! We're worried about those three kids "you're going to put in our community. There's a day car center "a mile-and-a-half away." We're like, "Geez, okay." So, there's fear and a lack of trust. And these concerns about reimbursement and financial issues – I get that. When I worked for the county, as Bruce did, and many of us, I didn't complain about what I made. Well, I complained a little bit about what I made, but I knew the deal. And I didn't really worry too much what Judy was getting paid, or however exorbitant that fee was. [Laughter.] You know, I was content with that. And now I find this tremendous feeling. And do we dare mention Luzerne County? I had a judge come down to see me, who I've known for years. He was a defense counsel. We had an hour-and-a-half in the office. And he said, "I respect you. I like you. We've gotten along for years. "But I'm afraid that I can't – I'd like to depend on you for advice, "but I'm afraid that if I'm seen doing anything with you "or supporting anything you have that I'm going to get in trouble. "So, nice knowing you, but we're really not going to talk." And this was a judge, along with another, who began their career on the bench with holding a meeting, inviting all the providers

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to the detention center, talking to us. Craig was there. "We're going to have an open dialog. "We're going to meet quarterly to have this." Well, that was the only meeting we ever had. And I understand they're worried, too. So I think it's a really tough environment, and I'm shocked to see these empty chairs. Judy Happ Well, I think trust – President, Youth Services the dissonance has been going on for many, many years. Alliance of Pennsylvania; I do think there's issues of trust. I think it has escalated to fear. Former Dauphin County I've been to meetings with providers, chiefs and Juvenile Probation Officer county Children and Youth administrators or county contract managers, which typically are under C&Y, where OCYF has been. And I can remember this woman from a northeast county asking a question of OCYF. And basically, not only did she get put down, but was told publicly, "I will contact your boss later." It's that kind of an incident, or where OCYF totally calls out a probation chief and admonishes him in front of an entire room and says some really disgusting things – called him names. And I'm not quite sure of the story, but it was bad. That's what we've progressed to, over the past X years – three years, four. I'm not really sure how many it's been. But it's a breakdown of the relationships. And, yes, there's always been this mistrust of, "We're all making money off the backs of kids, as providers." And I can tell you there's providers who think counties are doing the same thing. It kind of goes both ways. It's that breakdown of relationships that has to be addressed, instead of what's happened from my perspective over the years. It's not collaborative. It's gone to basically being things imposed. Top down. Yes, there's a lot of rules that have to be addressed, but somebody comes in – whether it be OCYF or a county – and says, "This is it. This is what you're going to do." Not any kind of engagement in how we're going to do things. That's where the issues of the consortium, for example, came up. And then, of course, naturally, the providers who were at the bottom end of the food chain got their backs all riled up and like, "We can't do this." And then, "We're not even going to listen "because this is how you're treating us." It's not the way we should be relating to each other. If we are all in it for the work of kids and families, we all have to be willing to listen, and we have to be willing to change a little bit, which is hard, but… I'm really glad to be here. I'm happy to have an open mind and hear the variety of perspectives. I just was so thrilled with the introductions. What a rich array of experiences people have. So I feel really encouraged by how this is going to progress and what we're going to hear.

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Almitra Sutton-Bey Well, I'm just going to piggy-back off of Judy Special Project Manager, because I am very disappointed to see the empty chairs. Philadelphia County And we really have to work on the relationships, Children & Youth since we're all in it for the children and the families. I think that, as a county, we've become more focused on being compliance-driven, and we've passed that along to the providers – worried about being in compliance. Because we're operating under fear and lack of trust. I really hope that we can talk about what we can do to change that culture. I understand it's been going on for years – long before I came to Philadelphia County, and it's, I think, a problem that exists thoughout the state. Anne Shenberger I'm like Don. Like, "How long do we have?" Former Southeast Region But I'll try to be as our former mayor of the city of Philadelphia. Director, Children & So, I'll be brief, no matter how long it takes. [Laughter.] Youth, Pa. Department of I think what I find most troubling Public Welfare; is the lack of civility and respect and professionalism. Former President & CEO, I'm often embarrassed for my former agency, DPW, Philadelphia Safe and when I hear – being one step removed. Sound I hear from all of the people that I've known all my professional life about experiences they've had. And I'm embarrassed for my former agency, that it's a part of a lack of professionalism or respect for other people and other people's viewpoints. Because I feel like I worked over my 30 years really, really hard to respect other people, to be professional in my dealings, to be objective, to be fair, and to be thoughtful about decisions that we were making and to involve other people, even if we didn't always agree. That we had things to do that all of us knew would be hard to do, but with the collective wisdom of all the different parties, we could figue out a way to do things that had to be done. So that everyone was informed about what we were doing and at least had some input into how we were going to go about implementing something that maybe we didn't really all fully agree with. And to see that falling away or not happening anymore or to hear that people are treated disrespectfully or made fun of in public settings is really disheartening. That was one of the moving factors that had me get involved with a circle like this – to try to change that, so that people aren't afraid to raise their voices, aren't afraid to put out an opinion or a thought or a desire or a proposal that might not be popular. But it reflects what they're thinking, and to have that treated with respect. I hope we can get there. And I hope this is the beginning.

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Susan Blackburn Thank you, Anne. You took me back to a day that I remember Balanced and Restorative previously with OCYF. We had a room bigger than this Justice Specialist, filled – filled – with people who came to provide input Juvenile Court Judges’ on policy-making. We would not see that today. Commission; Former We would absolutely not see that today. Director, Somerset County I'm not engaged in the level of dialog with the providers Probation and Youth as my administration is. I kind of have viewed things Services from aback, more or less. But some things I think I can add to this conversation – it goes back to the word "dissidence" and the meaning of that word. I come at this from the balanced and restorative justice perspective. We've been engaged in advancing balanced and restorative justice in this state now since late '80s, early '90s. That was truly about looking at kids and families for what they are. And part of the dissidence that I have felt, and many of my colleagues in the Chiefs' Association, initially was we're moving toward a system that is labeling our children and our families as "sick". And that is so contrary to what we needed to be doing, but why did we do that? We did it because that's where the funding was coming from. And those decisions certainly weren't made by the folks in the field. Those decisions were made by federal government and, subsequently, state government. So the dissidence, theoretically and philosophically, was there to begin with. Another area of dissidence that I see – and I think remains – is that of goals. And the goals of the children and youth system, and what they want for their kids and families, and the goals of the juvenile justice system, and what we need to be doing with our children and families in terms of coming from the legalistic point of view – the goals are very different. But I don't know that everyone understands how different those goals are and has put a lot of thought into: Where can we cross systems? And where can we keep kids out of the juvenile justice system and focus on the C&Y goals for those kids? And where is it that the juvenile justice system does need to intervene? And put forth the realistic goals that we as a system have. I think we're going to struggle with that, its goals and roles. We're going to continue to struggle with that as we move forward. The only thing that I can see that's going to help move us forward is what has been talked about, and that is open and honest dialog. I've not seen some of the things that have occurred that I've heard in this circle, but I'm astounded that there's that much lack of respect anywhere in our system. I feel very, very badly about that. I look forward to moving forward today, hearing more and hoping that I can contribute to this discussion.

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Bruce Grim Well, I've been in meetings where I've seen the lack of respect Associate Director, Pa. and the ridicule that some of our highly appointed Council of Children, Youth officials in the commonwealth have – & Family Services; the way they've comported themselves in meetings Former Chief, Berks is just unsatisfactory. It's unacceptable. County Juvenile Probation From the provider perspective, I would say that we seem to have coming out of the state a mean-spirited attitude toward providers. And that's something that has changed. I retired from my probation career in 2005. And that mean-spiritedness did not exist at that time, and it's something that's happened in the last several years. But it is clearly there. At least the perception from the private provider community is that it's there, and that needs to change. But I would like to also put on the table, so to speak, a change in business practice that is also jeopardizing the private provider community. When I retired, it was the practice of most counties to pay their bills to the private provider community, probably within 60 days of the time they received the invoice from the private provider community. And that was an acceptable length of time, and it was an established accepted length of time for the private community to receive payment. But what has happened since that time is that private providers are not receiving payment for their services, in some cases, for six, nine months after they've delivered the services. And, in many cases, they've delivered the services without even having a contract in place. And why is that? Because of the fiscal practices that have changed within the state. What this has done to the private community is it's forced private community providers to take out business loans just to stay alive, just to be able to pay their bills. And it's forced private providers to essentially give interest-free loans to county government, who isn't paying bills in a timely manner. Now, that practice doesn't exist for the paving contractors that do work for the counties or the state. It doesn't exist for any of the other vendors that provide services to counties. If they did that kind of practice, the vendors would simply stop delivering the service. And you wouldn't have your roads done. You wouldn't have your office supplies delivered to you. You wouldn't have your electricity delivered to you to run the courthouse. Yet, there seems to be an established philosophical perspective from county government that private providers shall and will provide services without timely payment. The timely payment is a big issue for private providers

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because, quite frankly, a lot of them are on the edge of insolvency. The other issue is cost of service. Private providers have not been able to increase their rates, their per diem rates, for three to four years now. And in those three to four years, costs have gone up for the private providers, just as they have for government, just as they have for everyone as they operate their own home. Consequentially, the private providers are not able to make their ends meet. We have one provider who told me that he is running at 100% capacity right now, and that's not covering his operational costs. He's running at 100% capacity and losing money. And what that does is it forces him and his agency to identify third party payments – contributions from the private sector. And, increasingly, the private sector is having to subsidize cost of operation, even for mandated services. And that's a business practice that, I think, is one that we cannot sustain. And that's a major, major concern. Timely payment for actual cost of services. Jay Deppeler Apparently, Bruce has been snooping around our books, Managing Partner, because I'm familiar with that issue. [Laughter.] Delaware Valley Forensics There's a lot of excellent points that have been made. Psychological Services, Communication, certainly. Trust. Bucks County I think fear of retribution – both ways – is something that is a highly motivating factor, or demotivating factor at times, to people, as well. Where if you speak up, if you communicate directly, if you express your concerns, if you're to share those concerns, that there may be some sort of retributive action against you, and therefore you become somewhat complicit in your silence. And that's why I think this is such a good opportunity for people to share their concerns, in what feels like a safe fashion. I want to go back to something that you were speaking about. I'm sorry I forget your name. Susan Blackburn Susie. Jay Deppeler Susie. You mentioned the juvenile justice aspect of things and the children and youth aspect of things. In our organization, we were asked about four or five years ago to consider shifting to this RTF status, to the mental health side of things – which I think is the third layer of confusion that enters here. Where there's a lack of focus and a lack of agreed upon philosophy as to how to approach a lot of the issues that all of our systems deal with at different times, perhaps even at the same time. There's certainly cases that I get where adult probation may be involved,

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children and youth is involved with the children, and other organizations are involved at the same time. In our inpatient programs, we have the "enviable" opportunity or task of having to be inspected by five different oversight organizations. At five different times during the year. All of whom come up with five different findings. Many of which, I'm proud to say, indicate that we're fully compliant with everything – there's nothing that needs to be done, and that other organizations identify something that the organization that was there previously didn't identify. So I think that the lack of focus is something that is inherent or borne out of that lack of communication. When we first agreed to move to the RTF side of things, which essentially falls under the OMHSAS Ted Wachtel Could you say what that is? Jay Deppeler Sure. The Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services. I'm sorry. You know, it's funny. Suddenly, I've embraced their lingo, and now I've become – I felt the same way in our meetings four years ago! My head was spinning. But as we made that shift, philosophically we were challenged because we're a juvenile justice system. We're a juvenile justice program. We primarily deal with adolescent sex offenders. So, as those kids are ordered into our treatment program, we used to think of them as clients, in that regard, as offenders – people who are being mandated to address the issues that they're presenting with. That behaviorally have distinguished them from their peers, even amongst the delinquency system. And by shifting to the RTF, they're now known as "consumers". Which is an ironic kind of twist, if you understand that the court has mandated one; but a "consumer" would seem, to me, has to be somewhat volitional. The client, in fact, has to sign a line that says they're agreeing to enter into treatment. Early on, we addressed these issues and suggested this could be problematic. Because if a kid essentially wants to overrule a judge's ruling, they could say, "Well, I'm not signing on the bottom line." And then there would be no funding for the treatment, and the judge is essentially trumped. Fortunately, I would like to point out, we've not had that problem – but still, that kind of looms large out there on the horizon, I'm sure. So, philosophically, these concepts, I think, are incompatible.

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The mental health law with the juvenile justice law. These things are really incompatible in terms of their philosophical approach to how we deal with the kids that we're dealing with, how we deal with the families that we're dealing with, how we deal with the victims that we're dealing with. And those are very real concerns that we have as we proceed in this process. And it becomes a much more muddled process when you have so many different sources of revenue, so many different oversight committees and so forth. And so the communication, I think, is essential to try to address those issues as services – from my perspective – under the juvenile justice umbrella begin to become more and more extinct and more and more restricted and, I believe, less and less robust. Having less of a significant treatment effect because of the diminishing numbers out there. So, I think the original question, if I can recall because my memory apparently isn't as good to this point in the circle, is how do the relationships feel between the county, the state and private providers. They do feel strained in that the communication can't flow as openly and honestly as perhaps would be useful in addressing some of these obstacles. Ironically, if you were to have – and I'll speak anecdotally from my experience – off-the-record conversations with people from the county, their experiences are very much in line, I think, with providers, in terms of their frustration. Yet, they're not able even to express that, or they have some concern or fear about expressing that as well, for fear of the retribution I mentioned earlier. So, I hope we're able to overcome that, certainly. Paul Werrell Thank you. Associate Professor of Words such as "dissidence", "lack of trust" – Criminal Justice, Cedar they don't blend well with words like Crest College, Allentown; "restorative justice" and "restorative practices". Former Chief, Lehigh Ted, you mentioned, too, those two empty chairs over there. County Juvenile Probation It's very ironic. When I was a chief and certainly since '95, I believe, we've talked about restorative justice, balanced and restorative justice, restorative practices. And most all of the juvenile justice agencies have taken that under their wing as the mission of juvenile justice. Yet, those two chairs are empty. How restorative are we? We're talking about restorative practices, but we're not practicing them. And that upsets me an awful lot. Also, too, I was shocked to hear that some providers are talking to counties only through their fiscal people.

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I retired a couple years after Bruce, but I recall speaking with a provider who was Don, for example. And Don said, "We have this new program." "All right, Don, tell me about it." "Okay, it serves this type of kid, XYZ. "Here's the per diem." I said, "Okay, let's talk about that. "I'll amend the contract. We'll put it in the contract. "And at least we have it there, "whether we use you or don't use you." I understand that doesn't happen as much anymore and that the conversations are with fiscal people. "No, you can't do that." "No, it has to be between this per diem and that per diem," or whatever it is. You talk about restorativeness. You talk about best interest of the child. A gentleman who I consult with, Joe Abraham from IMPACT Project, always says to his staff, "What's the best interest of the family and the child?" And has gone out of his way, I know, to say, "We'll pick up the cost of this, "even though we're not reimbursed, "because it's in the best interest of that particular family." And I'm shocked to hear that that may not be happening as much anymore. So I hope that we can get back to a larger circle, maybe, Ted? In the future? More chairs? And that people practice what they believe in philosophically. Craig Adamson For me, I agree with a lot of the sentiments Executive Director, that were stated here today. Community Service But I think for Community Service Foundation, specifically, Foundation & Buxmont today I'm sitting here, almost into September, Academy with not one contract. Typically, in the past, we would have most of our contracts executed. Last year it was probably end of February – well into the third quarter – before we had contracts established with about the 15 counties that we deal with. Bruce talked a little bit about what that means. There's some counties that chose not to pay us until there was a contract in place. The reason for this is recently the state putting itself right in between the county and the provider relationship. It is much different. I am having conversations with fiscal people. I'm not having the conversations with calling deputy chiefs or Bruce or Paul and saying, "Hey, I have this new program that I want to create. "And this is what we're thinking about doing." And trying to meet a need for the children and their families in that area. And I think that that was a different issue, too. That you had local control.

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You could decide what your needs were of that county. Each county is a little bit different. One county may be more rural. Another one may be more urban. And there's different services that are needed. There's been a huge push for the safe reduction of kids out of residential care. And philosophically, I don't disagree with that. I think if kids can be successful at home, they should be at home. Community Service Foundation – a majority of our services are community-based. I am closing those services. I just shut down an in-home service for juvenile probation because there's no longer the funding for that. We've shut down a day treatment program, and we have the building up for sale, currently. Our foster community-based programs – we've sold four homes in the last year-and-a-half. This isn't just affecting residential care. It's affecting good services for community-based care. And the reason for that, I believe, is because the state – and specifically OCYF – has inserted themselves in the basic running of our business, of our fiscal decisions. Bottom line is we should decide what those rates are in a competitive system and provide them to the counties to say, "Is this competitive?" And that's been taken away from us at this point. I think that the very nature of us going through these minute details of what we're sending the state in regards to fiscal pieces has now overlapped to the state is now asking us to change our job descriptions of our staff, in order to fit into a certain federal description. I guess this is contrary to the way that it was in the past, in regard to our role. And talk about roles. And you brought that up. And I really see my role as a provider – as a private provider, a nonprofit organization – to provide quality services for the county that we work for. And that's what I see my role – and I find that really, really difficult to do these days, compared to five years ago. To retain staff, to keep staff, we were at 0% increases last year. Healthcare came to us with, I think for the sixth year in a row, a double-digit percent increase for healthcare. We used to be able to cover a very decent plan for our staff. And we're struggling to cover the lowest HMO at this point, at this stage of the game. So for last year, for staff who had a 0% increase

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and then had healthcare increase – they got decreased in their salaries, is basically what the outcome was, halfway through the year. It's not a very good situation. For us, specifically, we've lost over the last several years… We owe a sister organization that's decided to subsidize us – we're up to probably close to three-quarters of a million dollars, sitting here today, in order to keep Community Service Foundation running. I've had very real conversations with our board of directors of whether or not that should continue, and whether we're going to continue to provide those services for children and youth and court-ordered children – mandated services. And I don't know what that's going to look like. We've done our part. We were just in a fiscal meeting the other day, and the final figure was within the last year we cut a million dollars out of our budget, 20% is what we were able to cut. So it's not like the cost-cuttng side isn't there. I mean, we've done what we could. But that's not trimming fat – you're cutting into the bone at that point. My concern, and a very real concern of all of us, is that that's going to cut into the quality of services for the children and youth that we work with. So, that's what I'm sitting here today with. And what the role is and what I think my role is. And I don't think that it should be based on fiscal decisions, what happens with kids. And I'm hearing horrible stories from other providers. It should be based on the needs of the children, on a continuum of services. And I think that that's – when I first came into this system, that's what we prided ourselves on. There was this continuum of services, and a county, ultimately – there's already controls. The county gets to decide where kids go. Chiefs get to decide who they go to. And that's the controls of things. And there's this perception that the state needs to now control that. And I think that's a bad perception. Jonathan Henning Wow. Sitting on the tail end of the circle, Chief Relations Officer, it's really hard to not want to say, "Ditto," Bethany Children’s Home and pass the mic and try and keep it fresh. I'll give it a try. First of all, having been in the system, so to speak, for quite a long time, I certainly was aware of the perception – from a private provider's standpoint –

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that there were people that felt that private providers agencies were getting rich on state and county funds. What I didn't know is that it was Ted's fault for borrowing his dad's car. [Laughter.] So, we have you to thank for that. Incidentally, I drive a '94 Jeep Wrangler with rust and plastic windows... [Laughter.] …In case you're wonderning. But there's two specific situations that come to mind when we talk about dissonance. About 10 or 11 years ago, I was part of the board of the Pennsylvania Council of Children, Youth and Family Services. A meeting was held between that council and the Children and Youth Administrators board, council, in the Harrisburg area. And some of that distrust, mistrust and misunderstanding was evident at that time as well. Our first task was to go around the room and introduce ourselves and list our three greatest challenges, at that given time. And I think the realization, when we completed that task and had gone around the room, is that the Children and Youth administrators and the private agency adminiatrators that were there had much more in common – the challenges and issues – than we didn't. And there was a realization that was palpable. That, "You know what? These challenges are similar. "We're in this together. And maybe we really need "to work together to solve some of these issues." It was an exhilaration to see that occur for a while. I think that some of that working together was challenged and diminished through some of that dissonance. I think the administration levels on the state were a little uncomfortable with the county agencies and private providers possibly working together so closely. That's disappointing. Because I really think we were recognizing and working on some of those challenges at that time. More recently, at Bethany, we had our annual inspection by our regional representatives. And about two years ago, we had what I would call a "clean" inspection. We passed with flying colors, essentially. And there were no reportable incidences that needed to be addressed. And we were pretty excited about that and shared that with our staff, who worked really hard to make that happen. We were told in a private conversation with one of the representatives a few weeks later not to expect that to ever happen again

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because they were challenged by the central administration and the state that nobody could be that perfect. And that they had to find something wrong when they did inspections. And a tremendous amount of disaapointment and frustration on our part. Because when you talk about dissonance, you talk about distance. I only wish that the people that are making those comments or making the decisions would come along on an inspection or maybe visit some of our agencies to see what we do and to see how hard our staff works at making that happen. So that we can have good, quality programs and good outcomes for kids. Because ultimately, that's really why we're all here. Sean DeYoung Wow. I'm at the tail end. Pennsylvania State As far as dissonance goes, one of my biggest issues Director, The Bair is inconsistencies from county to county. Foundation The Bair Foundation in Pennsylvania, we contract with 46 counties. I talk to all the counties. Some counties really embrace me, bring me in, talk to me, want to problem-solve, discuss options for their county. And then there's some counties I walk into and I'm treated like a second-class citizen. I'll set appointments with the executive director, they'll confirm it, I'll get to the county and then I'm meeting with somebody else. Not even the courtesy to meet with me face-to-face, call me back. And that's hard to do business. I've been one of those individuals that have been singled out and called out in a meeting by a representative from DPW – just for offering my opinion on something. I'm being singled out as trying to solicit business because I'm offering an opinion. In front of other county staff. And what kind of message does that send? And that's really disheartening. So many different issues have been brought up. And I'm thinking to myself, "Yeah, I have that problem. I have that problem." I would say my average length of reimbursement is three to four months. And my fiscal people call me and say, "Hey, can you call the county and ask for money?" I'll try to get a hold of the executive director. They won't talk to me. And then I'll have to deal with the fiscal person. I've had counties tell me, "We don't have any money. We can't pay you."

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Most of my services is fully reimbursable. I have contracting issues. And that's where the inconsistencies happen as well. I have some counties that contracted with me before the fiscal year started – probably five or six counties this year. In the last fiscal year, I have one county that still hasn't completed their contract for me yet. And my rate's posted back in October. So there was really no excuse for not having a contract. What I would like to see is better communication and more consistency between how I'm treated and approached by the counties or in my approach to them. I'm trying to think if there's another point to be made here. I'm just dissatisfied in general. It's not fair… And I'm sure all of us providers feel we provide fantastic services and outcomes and whatnot. We just want to be treated with some sort of common decency to discuss what we do. And I know that in a lot of counties it's not their fault that they're not getting the money to pass on to providers. We're experiencing the same fiscal problems as everybody else is – raise freezes and costs going up for everything. And that ultimately does get passed down to the care that goes to the kids. And a solution needs to be made. I'm not sure what that is. It would be nice if we did have other input. But I'm encouraged by at least getting this off the ground and bringing people together to discuss some possible solutions. It's nice to hear that we're all on the same boat, but I'm encouraged to hope that some of our suggestions will get passed forward and that we can see some progressive change, at least maybe in the years to come. Bob Costello Thanks, everyone.

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Part 3 Participants addressed the question: "What do you think would help improve the

situation and the delivery of services for young people in Pennsylvania? Bob Costello What do you think would help improve the situation Circle Facilitator; and the delivery of services for young people in Pennsylvania? Director of Training & Consulting, International Institute for Restorative Practices Graduate School Ted Wachtel I'm going to identify the elephant in the room. President, International There's a man named Richard Gold who we keep referring to Institute for Restorative as "OCYF", and I feel badly for the many Practices Graduate dedicated and concerned people in that agency School; Founder, who are being lumped into these characterizations. Community Service I think one of the first improvements could be Foundation & Buxmont that Governor Rendell will get rid of this man Academy as soon as possible, because he is poison. I have never heard, in all my years, anyone characterized in the way he has been. I have never met Richard Gold. I don't know what he looks like. But I have heard about him for years now. And I've heard him called names I've never heard people in the system called: narcissist, ego-maniac, bully and a lot more profane terms. And I would hope that the governor would take action as soon as possible and that the next two – several gubernatorial candidates would take this on-board and never let this man within reach of government again. It's appalling how people have been treated and the degree of disrespect and lack of professionalism that he has practiced. I'd also like to say that I don't think the problem is strictly scarcity, although less money creates a lot of problems and we all have to acknowledge that. But when you're a private provider, you accept that you are not part of government. You don't have the security. And if one were allowed to make the adjustments according to your business sense; if you were allowed to set rates at sane and appropriate levels; if you did not have to suffer year after year of zero- and one- and two-percent rate increases… No one can believe that we can sustain the quality of service with that kind of funding. And yet, sometimes I'm dismayed at the lack of understanding of business by people in government. I hope not to over generalize; I recognize that many people do understand. But I've actually sat in meetings, this is going back some years, because I haven't been involved directly, where a very highly ranked

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county official could not understand the difference between setting an arbitrarily low rate and saying, "But you get the same amount of money." And not understanding that serving more kids for the same amount of money means you have less funding per child, and you can't pay your staff cost-of-living increases, you lose the best people. It's unbelievable how naïve people can be, to think that this can go on. And we all accept that our agencies have to shrink down in the face of the kind of cutbacks that are sweeping the world. We do a lot of work in the city of Hull in the U.K., and they're just experiencing 30% cutbacks in their government just after an election. So that's life and we all accept that. But to take away the prerogatives that are normal for business people. And I appreciated the comments, Bruce, that you made about the state does not treat paving contractors and copy machine vendors and electric companies like they treat human service providers. And the reason is that we were invented to serve government and it's need in providing services to children. And many of us serve one, or two, or five, or many more counties, but we have no place else to sell our service. So we are more readily bullied. Serving on the boards of these two organizations, there's an interesting contrast. In the children and youth and juvenile probation system, we experience unbelievable scrutiny, people asking for our detailed budgets, trying to tell us how to run our agencies, having this unfounded fear that people are making humongous salaries. But in fact, we also, in one of the agencies, work with the schools. And there are a number of vendors that sell services to the schools. And they simply say, “How much is your rate?” and they decide how much to buy of it or whether to buy it or not, or when they see fit, they start their own programs. And that's the way a free market system works. When I came on-board in the 1970s, there were 500-some providers across the state of Pennsylvania. In my own county now, the four largest agencies, two of them are gone. This is a problem that cannot by solved by some central agency imitating what collapsed in eastern Europe, which was essentially planned economy. You don't get the discretion and choice, and from the programmatic point of view, it's actually in the Pennsylvania regulations, that each county is supposed to make its own decisions. It says it. They are to make their own decisions, their own contracts. That is no longer possible. The state, the Department of Public Welfare, its role was never to do what it's doing now. It's not defined that way. In fact, the state was merely supposed to administer the larger budget issue, giving up the money and allowing discretion at a local level. It was a very sensible system

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that has been literally dismantled. Now this is not some arbitrary opinion of mine. Just last month, a three-judge panel of the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania unanimously and explicitly said that what Richard Gold has been doing, for at least the last year in this monster system he's created for scrutinizing fiscal affairs, has done this illegally. That it was not to be done by bulletin, that it should have gone through the proper regulatory process and it was not. And it took some brave providers, stepping out, bringing a lawsuit and getting about as unequivocal outcome as you can possibly get in courts. So for starters, we need to deal with some extreme people and then we need to return to the system that's approved in regulations, that allows local discretion, and we need to put program people back in charge of programs, with the understanding that fiscal people have their share of responsibility but they shouldn't be dictating programs. And given the scarcity, then each local entity, the children and youth, probation, will have to make discriminations about which children can have services, who are the priorities. And that's where a system works best with local discrimination, people dealing with their local needs, and we need to move back to that kind of a system. If that means legislation that provides some protections of county's authority, some protections for providers with regard to timely payments, some protections, and actually just enforcement of the current regulations. A very prominent anti-trust lawyer in Philadelphia, a year or so ago, told the providers that without question, reviewing the laws in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania's counties, and state are violating anti-trust laws and are liable for triple damages. The private providers deferred in pursuing a lawsuit at a federal level because there was an alternative and a more immediate need in the form of addressing the regulations that were just imposed last July. And so the decision was deferred. But if the providers should decide to pursue that option, although it could take years, the definitive decision by the Commonwealth Court will make it a lot stronger case, and Pennsylvania could be liable for I don't know how many millions and millions of dollars. I hope it doesn't come to that. But I'm fearful that unless something changes, people will be driven to that kind of litigious and desperate action. Thanks. Chuck Songer Whoa. I was going to start my comments with Executive Director, a feeling at the end of the first go-round and that was Pa. Children & Youth that the responsibility for the climate that we're currently Administrators' operating in is way bigger than any one person or any one Association of the groups of partners that are represented, or not, here today. So I think we all do need to recognize our role in this in terms of the creation and whether we have climate change or not. In terms of things that I would change…One is we have to

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get back to the mutual respect and professionalism in terms of discourse. We need predictable and sustainable funding if we're going to move forward at all. Or make clear and purposeful decisions about the paths that we're going to take in the future, as service providers, whether you're public or private. The other thing, and this is part of the community and state-wide and should probably be national, in terms of community relations and the marketing of what it is that we do. That we need to convince our communities, we need to convince our political leaders – at all levels – that you can't do more with less. You do less with less. Or you do things differently with less, probably not as well. But we can't do more. We can't be expected to do more with the same or reduced amount of resources – whether that's raw dollars, or the outgrowth of staff turnover, or anything else that as administrators, or whatever, we've all dealt with in at least one of our previous lives. Shara Saveikis I agree with Chuck. [Laughter.] Executive Director, I think it's sad because we're really here for Westmoreland County serving children and families but I feel, going back to the initial Children's Bureau question, the dissonance really is driven by funding. So I think the biggest issue that we all see is making sure that we have predictable and sustainable, as well as an adequate amount of funding to sustain the needs for children and families. And that's at the provider level, at the local level, the state and federal level. I think often what happens is, in my specific position, we're mandated by federal and state legislation and regulation, but way too often, the fiscal responsibility is shifted to the local level, which it should not be. And what I mean by that is, the way the current system is now and the way regulation already states, is that the state can and will only participate at the maximum allowable rate and at the lowest rate for the same level of service. So if anybody wants to go above and beyond that rate, it would be 100% county funds. So I'm not aware of any commissioner, or board of commissioners, that would agree to 100% county funds, nor is it fair for the local level to have to fund federal and state mandates. So I think it's really important for us to, in order to get there with the adequate funding, is exactly what Chuck said – we don't have a lot of constituency with children and families. And they don't have the voices, they don't vote. And certainly what we can do in the child-serving systems with all of us in this profession, is trying to increase that – increase the awareness, increase our voices out there for the need so that we are able to sustain what service delivery we have, in working with the kids and families. Don Tangora Hear, hear, Ted. I agree. I think that there are so many difficult CEO, Edison Court, Inc.; issues to address today. I've heard so many great comments from Former Supervisor, Bucks each of you. And, Anne, I agree about civility certainly. When you County Juvenile Probation were there, we knew what we could expect, and it was professionalism. And I think we have a room full of professionals who understand what that is. But at the national level there's a toxic dialogue propelled through political agendas, social issues, changes in the country, and I think that makes it harder for us to

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see eye-to-eye as a general rule. There's scarcity, yes. I mean, this is the worst economy in my career. I don't know about anyone else here. This is the worst thing I've experienced. It's tough. Folks want us to reduce our services and reduce costs. And does that mean we affect the outcome of the work we do? I think it does. I think we all realize that. We have a prison industrial complex that was driven largely by fear and rising crime rates. Well, crime rates have dropped four or five years in a row, precipitously. Juvenile crime has been down for quite a while. So perhaps it is time for us to look at how we can do things differently and provide better service. But that prison industrial complex comes at a tremendous cost to society. And those of us that work in juvenile justice think that we can make some difference in pulling some of those people out of that system, potentially. So I think we have many, many complex issues facing us all at the same time. But on the other hand, I'm cheered by the fact that we have so many crossovers – those of us that worked in the system, are working with providers, they still like us, I think. On the other side, a little bit, they can talk to us, they know we're going to tell the truth. I think that there's the opportunity for dialogue for all of us that have decided to stay around. My old boss, Bill Ford, has got to be around out there somewhere, some people probably believe him, you know, I would hope. I mean there's some of us I know that he's worked with in agency now, God forbid. I think there are enough of us out there that can communicate with each other. And talking to my former probation colleagues about the distance I feel from the judges' involvement and, to a certain extent, the chiefs' association. I look at our children and youth agency – 10 years, six directors. That's not an accident. Must not be a good job, people heading for the highway, "Hey, who wants to be the director?" Everybody's out to lunch. So these are tough environments. And I know, Judy, it's no fun, right, telling people things are going to change. Not good. I mean they continue to pump graduates out – criminal justice majors, social work majors, other people like that, want to come in the field, want to make a difference, and we're saying, "Well, it is going to be different." I think that we provide a valuable service to the community. I really do. I think that we have all tried to really get better with this emphasis on outcome measures. We've all really concentrated hard on what differences we make, what do we do that works. And we want a partnership, speaking as a former probation guy, we want active partnerships with everybody in the system. I recall when I started there were very few programs available at all. And those of us who are old enough to know – there were very few choices or opportunities available. And I think we have a better system today. I'd hate to see it completely disappear just because it's tough out there. So let's speak up and say, "Enough of Richard Gold and enough of his tyranny." But agreed, just getting rid of Richard Gold isn't the solution, in and of itself. He probably has some ideas that make sense, I suspect. And we should talk about those at some point.

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Judy Happ Thanks. I had an interesting experience, it was May or June, meeting President, Youth Services with some legislative staff, talking about how we could really move Alliance of Pennsylvania; things forward. And I learned there was this sweeping study done of Former Dauphin County the children and youth system, I don't know, five to eight years ago. Juvenile Probation Officer Big, thick thing all published about all the recommendations of the way we should change the system for the better because, again, these things are not new that we're talking about. And it sits there and I said, unknowingly, "Well who's responsible for moving OCYF to "implement some of these things?" Well, it was the legislature. And they were not going to do that because politically that's not the thing to do. That just spoke volumes to me about how special interests – or personal, political parties, or whatever those ambitions are – get in the way of some good thinking, people who do have good ideas but they never get shared because all these other things start to get in the way. We need some sweeping system change, and that's going to be very hard for every level to cope with because people just really don't like change. I would hope that the new governor really takes a serious look at the way the whole system is operating from children and youth probation, including mental health and drug and alcohol. Because there's too many conflicting things, too many things that are not working in sync. And that just creates a lot of inefficiency at a time when we need to be really looking at our resources. So I would hope that that's something that really moves forward. I just want to support – I hadn't thought about it, but what Chuck, you said about marketing is so needed because part of the bad reputation, I've always said, has been created by ourselves. We have to assume responsibility for that, because we don't promote the good things that we do do. And I mean that on all levels. I think local is the best place to decide what really they need, in terms of services. I remember a time when the county agency would come and say, "What you're providing, yeah it's good, but it really doesn't "quite meet the needs that we have now. Here's how things have changed. "We really need this. Are you willing to adapt?" As providers, that was good because it meant the counties, the people, were getting the services that they needed, and I would like to see it shift back toward that kind of a relationship. Almitra Sutton-Bey Well that's exactly what I was going to say. How do we deliver Special Project Manager, better services? Sometimes we have to take a hard look at ourselves. Philadelphia County In Philadelphia, we have more than our share of bad press, and we Children & Youth didn't do a good job of getting our name out, letting people know what we did. But under our new administration, we had to take a hard look, and we said we've become the dumping ground for everybody. We have to refocus our services which forced the providers to reinvent themselves when we changed our plan. We're a safety-driven model. In order for you to stay afloat, these are the contracts that we have to offer. And we know that was hard, that was a tough decision but it was a decision that had to be made. So we developed an entire new division, looking at outcomes to make sure that the decision was a good one. And we're looking at it, and things are going well. Sometimes things have to change. We can't keep doing things the same way because that's the way that it's done. So hopefully this will catch on, everyone will begin to take a closer look at themselves,

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and if it means reinventing yourselves, we have to reinvent ourselves. Anne Shenberger I think I have two trains of thought. One way to improve, I think, what's Former Southeast Region going on now is to change the environment and the culture in a way Director, Children & that would invite everyone to a more open and safe place to share Youth, Pa. Department of thoughts and ideas, and maybe even to invite a lot of conflicting ideas Public Welfare; and have a safe discussion about those conflicting ideas and really Former President & CEO, focus on both where we agree and where we differ. And try, then, to Philadelphia Safe and move beyond getting those things out on the table safely to a place Sound where some common ground can be identified and where the best parts of all those conflicting ideas can be brought together. I think that the only way that can be safe is if we do return to some respect and civility in that conversation, and professionalism. So that would be the first thing. The second thing I think a couple of people have talked about. But I think we need to keep in mind that the rules that we're operating under now are thirty and forty and sometimes even fifty years old. And nothing stays relevant that long. And if it does, then there's something wrong with the environment, that it's still okay to do what you did fifty years ago in exactly the same way. And I think one of the things that's caused the situation that we're in now is that the regulators, which in most parts is the state, are trying to change the rules without actually going through the process. And that's what that Commonwealth Court decision was about in terms of the funding situation. But it's true in a lot of other areas, too, because Pennsylvania's regulatory process is very cumbersome. It's a two- to three-year process, there are a lot of steps along the way. Regulatory agencies try not to do it if they don't have to. But I think to pretend like the financial rules that we're operating under were promulgated and adopted in 1978 – now, please. Let's get real. That world doesn't exist anymore. So to pretend like it does year after year after year without even opening the door to try to take a look at these things and say we're living now in the 21st century, what do we need to support our services now, is just foolish. That's shame on all of us. And I think the other thing is the same is true with the programmatic regulations that set up the relationship – the case management relationship, the service planning relationship, they were adopted in 1982. And so what we do is we layer on bulletin after bulletin after bulletin and pretty soon nobody knows what they're supposed to do. In some ways, it's no wonder that there's always this swirling piece of we're not really sure what's going on, whose role is what. So my suggestion for improvement is let's all take a deep breath, take a step back and start a methodical process of looking at: What are we trying to achieve? What are the roles that we need to achieve what we're trying to achieve? And how do we finance the service? Because what we're doing now is: We're trying to find the money to pay for what we've been doing for the last fifty years without going through that process of self-assessment to see what we should be doing now. And maybe we, as everybody has said, we clearly need to change. We need to clarify roles so that people are clear about the respect that each role deserves. And then we need to look at how much money can we realistically expect and how should it be used.

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Susan Blackburn Wow, that was pretty powerful. History is a big part of this, Balanced and Restorative I believe. And I think you're right, Anne, looking back at our Justice Specialist, history, from whence we came. You know, I think back to the days Juvenile Court Judges’ when all delinquents were held in Camp Hill and what subsequently Commission; Former happened when changes occurred and private providers were able Director, Somerset County to develop programs. What precipitated that? What were the ideals then? Probation and Youth Are those some of the ideals we want to revisit, in the sense of Services providing for our kids adequately and moving forward in that respect. One of the other things that someone mentioned was relative to a conglomerate at the state, so to speak, and how that's really not what we want. And I have to agree wholeheartedly with that, that the strength, I know, in our system has been the innovation and the imagination of not only private providers, but of county agencies. I remember when Lehigh started school-based probation because it was a great idea in Lehigh County, and soon it was across the state. It was like, "Wow, this is awesome. It works well. "Let's see how we can promulgate this." And the idea had come from a single county. So do those ideas get considered anymore? Or are we moving into this state-run system of, "It's going to be our way or no way?" We're moving into a new administration, I mean, that's a given. So what is it that we old heads can do, you know, to help that administration understand the nature that I've heard, the toxicity I've heard today, how can we help that administration understand that that's how things have been operating and we can't tolerate that anymore. And offer some solutions for that administration to move forward and really come out on a positive end, right out of the gate. Bruce Grim Timely payment for actual cost of care. Associate Director, Pa. I think for the service providers that have closed programs, Council of Children, Youth laid off staff – career employees – that are just & Family Services; teetering on the edge of financial insolvency, Former Chief, Berks it's that simple. Timely payment for actual cost of service. County Juvenile Probation And that's a business model that we follow in the rest of the world. And there's nothing wrong with following that business model because it is sustainable. We need to return to paying timely for actual cost of care. One of the ironies is in the fiscal process that has gone on for the last several years is that public agencies, the counties and the state, know exactly what it costs, line item by line item, to run the private provider community. Because we have been submitting to the public agencies for the last three years the most detailed fiscal submissions of anyone in the country. So the public sector knows what it is costing. Now what the public sector needs to do is to pony up the courage to pay for the service that it controls. Public sector controls if they purchase a service, when they purchase a service, from whom they purchase a service

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and how long that service is going to last. What private providers do is provide that service. So ultimately, we need to return to that model where public sector pays for what it asks the private providers to do. Jay Deppeler There's a business philosophy about disruption Managing Partner, and that it's essential to the growth of an organization. Delaware Valley Forensics And I think that, today, this is an example of that. Psychological Services, What we're used to is being disrupted, Bucks County and that we turn that into an opportunity. So, in answer to the question, "How do you make this better?" I think this is the way you make it better, by having discussions about it and hoping that people who are in positions of authority, who are making these decisions, who are writing these bulletins, would be open to this type of discussion as well. As I hear people going around – Judy, you mentioned that desire to go back to the counties, understanding what programs are necessary, what services are necessary and being involved in that. I absolutely agree with that. I think that it would be – to return to that philosophy would be very useful in providing a better, more enhanced service in the locale in which it is being provided. Ironically, as I thought about it – I'm sitting here thinking about it, and I think their involvement now is kind of on the other side of it. Where there's this top-down push to how things are going to be done. And rather than collaborating and trying to come up with new, inspiring ways to respond to problems within local communities, they say, "Well, this program doesn't work "because we're not going to be reimbursed for it." Or they're telling us it can't be done this way, and so, therefore, you can't do that any longer. I think a way to make this better is the action that's being undertaken today. But you would hope that that same action could be undertaken by counties as well, by people in the counties who represent some level of authority and have some sway in that process. Or potentially could, if they were to galvanize their resources together to address those issues. I kind of think of this as a "boots on the ground" issue. When you have the issues in Afghanistan or Iraq, where people in Washington are putting together how we're going to go about addressing the issues in Iraq and Afghanistan. And they're not necessarily understanding what's really happening over there

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because they're not there. Somebody over here said [gestures to part of the circle], "Come on out and see what we do. See how we do it." I would love that because I get the feeling a lot of the time that people are kind of sitting in ivory towers expressing how things should be done but don't necessarily understand how they're done on a practical day-to-day basis. And I think that would be one of the ways that we could overcome some of these obstacles as well. The dialog in and of itself is absolutely essential. Paul Werrell Thank you, Jay, for this good segue Associate Professor of in what I'm going to say. I agree with all of you, Criminal Justice, Cedar regarding a lot of the macro ideas. Crest College, Allentown; I want to propose a micro idea. Former Chief, Lehigh And just look at the concept. County Juvenile Probation The practicality of it may not be there yet, but it may be. Historically, working in juvenile justice and probation, we looked at Children and Youth a certain way. Children and Youth looked at us a certain way. From not returning phone calls, to dumping cases back and forth, and so forth and so on. An incident occurred – I guess you can't call it an incident. It wasn't my doing at all. Susie mentioned school-based probation. We had probation officers assigned to different areas of the county and so forth. And our Children and Youth started experimenting with that. And one of the school districts put our probation officer in a little office right next to the school and said, "You can use this office." Interestingly, they put a Children and Youth worker in the same office. And it took about three or four weeks. These two people got along beautifully. They started to understand what the other one did. And I remember our probation officer coming back to a meeting and – I don't know. We were probably trashing Children and Youth about something or other. And she took Children and Youth's stance and, "Wait a minute! Children and Youth needs XYZ." It was, "Oh, wow. We didn't understand that." Ted, this circle at this level is that type of concept. Local circles, I think, are needed, too. But these two young ladies worked together almost on a daily basis. They were physically near each other. They didn't go to a meeting. And one went up to the office building in Harrisburg over here, and one went over to Reading, and one went to Allentown and so forth and so on. And that relationship was fantastic.

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And those kids were served much better than in other areas, where that didn't occur. The practicality of the concept – I don't know. But I think it's something that we need to consider as we go along with these discussions. Craig Adamson I have really two trains of thought Executive Director, that's happening for me right now. Community Service One of them is kind of the immediate. Foundation & Buxmont I think that the situation that providers Academy are in right now – the two main responses today are changing legislation and litigation. I've been in several meetings recently. There's another provider meeting that's happening on Monday to describe that strategy. I think many providers feel that legislation needs to change so that the loopholes can be closed, so that what's happened can't happen again. And the other part being litigation. And Ted talked a little bit about the declaratory relief that several providers took forward. We've talked about anti-trust. Things have just become that difficult that, I think, for several agencies – they're in survival mode. They feel backed into a corner, and they don't know what else to do. So they're getting the legal opinions and they're deciding to fight back. And that's typically where most conversations go when providers get together now. I think there's a perception of the providers are a bunch of whiners, and they're just crying about their rates and things like that, and they'll get over it, and they have a bunch of reserves and things like that. From my perspective, I think it's way past that. The reason why I think that is because of several phone calls that I've just had in the last three weeks. Programs closing down. Just shutting their doors. From the RTFs that you talked about, Jay – that people made that switch and now are just closing their doors because they don't have referrals. They made that flip to go into the mental health system and just are selling off properties and programs and things like that. To other agencies that are just saying, "We're getting out of it. There's no future in it, "so we're getting out of the business." That concerns me. And that's the immediate need. The idea of culture change sounds wonderful.

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That's kind of the second thought. But I don't know how many providers are in the position today to think about that. I don't think that there's that hope. They need an immediate change – now, within the next year – or they're not going to be around to be a part of that culture change. So, there's possibly some change coming up with the new administration coming in. And is that going to change? People don't know. I've heard from several providers that say they can't wait for that to happen. As far as culture change – in the last couple of years, this is what's going to create change. I look for direction – I think you said "the old heads". I mean, if we calculate the number of years of experience in this room – that's overwhelming. And I look for people that have had that experience. I've worked at CSF for 15 years. Don was my professor at Temple University. [Laughter.] And I came into this many, many years ago, and I did the internship with juvenile justice. I think that part of the solution needs to be getting back to the people that helped develop this system. I think there's a very real problem in the state. The deferment of $40 for residential services for the state of Pennsylvania is a very real problem. I don't think – well, I've never been part of a meeting where the private provider sector was engaged to come up with a possible solution. There's already several controls. I pay thousands of dollars for an audit every year. Is there ways that we could have added in a way to be able to secure the funds for the feds through our audits? I mean, I would pay a little bit extra money. It would be a lot cheaper to do it that way than going through all of this crazy paperwork that the state has created. There's been no engagement to be abe to – there's a problem, and how can we be creative in solving those problems. I think we need an adaptive approach. I think that right now, the current administration tried to create a technical response with, "Let's create these forms and it'll solve the problem." It hasn't. It's created more of a problem. I think that we do need to come together and the culture needs to change. I just don't know how realistic or how quickly that can happen right now. And I think that people are really starting to dig their heels in about what needs to happen in the immediate future.

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And I think that we're going to go through some tough times within our relationships in the near future. I think there needs to be dialog. I think there needs to be a change in who's creating that change. There was just a comment that happened of, "Who gave Richard Gold all that power and authority? "How did he get that power and authority "to be able to do that?" And, honestly, it's our fault. Why did we allow that to happen? I think, Bruce, you and I have been a part of several meetings that we've talked about the providers are their own worst enemy, at times. And that we undermine one another at times. And I think it's time that we come together and really – and I invite counties and other people that really want to create change to be a part of that dialog and discussion. I hope that it doesn't have to get to the litigation and legislation, but I think for several people there is no other option at this point. And that's a concern. But that's reality. Jonathan Henning I'll go back to something that Anne brought up Chief Relations Officer, when she talked about the larger system Bethany Children’s Home and the legislation and regulations that we have to deal with. A great deal of what we do day in and day out is formulated from Act 148 of 1978 and which was ammended with Act 30 of 1991. So even the most recent ammendments to those regulations are 19 years old. And there's not too much that I do now that I was doing 19 years ago in a similar fashion. So I think from a macro standpoint, as much as culture change and significant system change is a daunting task, I think we have to start with our overarching regulations and legislation, in which we have to live, work and comply. It will be painful. It will be difficult. But I think it's a commitment that we all have to make here, when we go back home to our agencies. And with our legislators, in getting them to recognize that this is not just helpful to be able to do but necessary if they want to continue to have this rich array of services that come from the private sector in Pennsylvania. From a more micro kind of approach, I'll go back to what Bruce said, speaking strictly as one of those private providers. To be able to be paid in a timely fashion, to be able to be paid at least close to what it actually costs us

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to provide the services that state and county agencies like us to provide and want us to provide but don't want to pay what it actually costs to provide those services. Bethany is not unique in the state, in that we significantly subsidize the services that we provide. And in better economic times and with greater numbers of kids in placement with us, that's a survivable tactic. When you have fewer kids in care, you have less of those additional funds to help you through the difficult times. If you have bad economic times, often – in the past – that's when there seem to be more kids and families needing services. And I think what has made this so much more of a difficult situation is the experiences over the last couple of years of a really horrible economy and fewer kids in care while we're subsidizing the services we provide with private dollars. And it has become an expectation on the state and the county level that many providers will do that. And we have willingly done that. We might be shooting ourselves in the foot in doing so, but we could afford it. And we can no longer afford to do that. And that's where we've seen doors close of agencies. At Bethany, we have 30% of our group homes closed. We just can't sustain the number of services that we were providing. Interestingly, if others close their doors and we're asked to ramp up and quickly open some of those services, we wouldn't be able to do that quickly because the regulations require so much time and effort in hiring and training new employees, that it would take us five months to effectively open a group home that we had to close because of lack of need. Again, looking at it more narrowly, if you want the service, you got to be able to afford to provide it. Sean DeYoung I agree. I don't want to be a broken record. Pennsylvania State I agree with Bruce, though, with what you were saying Director, The Bair about timely payment for the cost of the services Foundation we provide. But beyond that, I think that better marketing and eduation needs to happen to our legislators and the communities. The Bair Foundation is part of the Foster Family-Based Treatment Association, which is a national organization – advocacy group, whatever you want to call it – for foster family providers. And I'm on their public policy committee. And we're actively involved at the national level

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to try to influence change in different areas. One of the things that I've learned from that experience is just how little our legislators know about what we do. And when they start learning about what we do, then we start seeing some change. And I really think that we need to have a stronger public policy push from the private provider community. And we've done that already. We've done some work. But I think it needs to be on a greater scale. Half the times when we're meeting with our legislators – we're not meeting with our legislators, we're meeting with their aides that are 19 years old, it seems like. Ten years old. I don't know. And they have no idea what we do. They don't know what treatment foster care is. They don't know what residential care is or what the scope of that means. They need to understand what we do. We need to have a stronger lobby. That's going to improve the money flow, hopefully, which will ultimately improve the quality of our service and our service delivery. Because there just isn't that funding. There's a lot of agencies that do the private dollars to try to bring that in. There's a lot of agencies that don't have that capacity to do that. Those are agencies that are closing. I was just at the FFTA conference in D.C. two weeks ago, and we were talking about the scope and the forecast for social services across the country. The current projection is that 100,000 non-for-profits are going to go out of business in the next five years, nationally. And that's just a staggering number. And the common theme through the whole conference is strategic alliances, partnering. And this is what we're doing today. And we need to continue to do this and stand together rather than – we've talked about being our worst enemy, undermining each other, whatever it may be. That may work for your agency in the short run, but we really need to stand together to make our voices heard. And if we don't, then I think we're going to continue to see the trend that we are moving more toward a state-run system. And programs being run by the state, or the county itself, rather than having the robust private provider community that we've had. I sat in one of the PCCYFS meetings over on the western region. I think it was a couple months ago. And I was just kind of blown away at how

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few providers were there – because so many people have either gone out of business or couldn't afford to pay for their membership anymore or whatever it may be. And that's just a sad state of affairs. So, we need to try to foster some growth there and bring it back.

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Part 4 Participants did a second go-around addressing the question: "What do you think

would help improve the situation and the delivery of services for young people in Pennsylvania?"

Bob Costello Without a really specific question, just anything that Circle Facilitator; that promoted for you or anything that you found Director of Training & particularly noteworthy in our discussion so far. Consulting, International With an eye on the fact that we have 35 minutes left. [Laughter.] Institute for Restorative Practices Graduate School Ted Wachtel Well, the International Institute for Restorative Practices President, International is obviously committed to a certain philosophy and approach. Institute for Restorative I just want to briefly define restorative practices Practices Graduate and distinguish it from restorative justice, School; Founder, which it includes. But it goes beyond Community Service responding to wrongdoing and crime, Foundation & Buxmont which restorative justice does. Academy But to also community-building. The underlying philosophy or fundamental hypothesis of restorative practices is that people are happier, more productive, more cooperative and more likely to make positive changes when those in authority do things WITH them, rather than TO them or FOR them. And WITH them does not mean giving up authority, but using authority in a graceful way that allows for engagement and for all voices to be heard. I don't feel those kind of discussions have been going on very widely in the state among a wide variety of players. And that should be including mental health in education because we all deal with young people. But Pennsylvania has been a leader in "restorative" in the largest sense. The balanced and restorative justice approach is one of the elements that has been here for some years. Family Group Decision Making has been a significant development in the children and youth system. The idea of the Sanctuary model, which is a very restorative approach, pioneered by one of our advisors, Dr. Sandra Bloom, who's working with us to bring about this Pennsylvania Restorative Practices Project. And we've been doing – and I guess others, although I think we've been the leader in the state and nationally and internationally – the IIRP in bringing restorative practices to schools, with some remarkable outcomes. Our own schools and group homes for many years have had some amazing outcomes, reducing offending behavior by more than half.

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But in the public schools, dramatic drops in some of the toughest schools in the state – in reducing violence and crime and misbehavior and bullying. I think that we've gone about restorative somewhat piecemeal in this state. And that's not a criticism. That's often the way things start. But I'd like to suggest that we use a restorative approach and people become more knowledgeable about it. And we're going to take some steps to do that – two of which we have in mind. In October and November are two free webinars, one on using restorative practices in juvenile justice, which would include some representation from all of the agencies that we can muster. And similarly, another webinar on using it in schools. But having some more opportunities to be restorative in the way we behave. I know that this format is weird to a lot of people. I had a lot of questions about it. There was a lot of buzz about, "What does this mean, a talking piece?" and so forth. But it actually is a way that you can have decorum. You don't have cross talk. Everybody gets heard. And you can really have an interesting discussion. And we're going to sponsor more of these. I think that it's one specific thing that I'd like to help promote in the world. And I hope that you will tell people how this went for you, what it was like to be in a restorative circle. It was a risk for people who didn't know about it to come, and I'm very thankful for that. And I'd like to pass the talking piece. Chuck Songer Okay, thanks. Executive Director, I don't think I really have anything else Pa. Children & Youth to say at this point. But I'm really Administrators' interested in, "What do we do now?" Association and what's next. So I'm going to pass it. Shara Saveikis Something that sparked – with the talking points – Executive Director, specifically hearing "change" is… Westmoreland County Me and probably most county Children's Bureau Children and Youth administrators might cringe when they hear the word "change". [Laughter.] Because we've had so much change occur with additional mandates and responsibilities in the past several years that we really, truly feel we're the Jack-of-all-trades and mastering none of them right now. So, I welcome change. But I think the important thing to say with change

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is planned change. And I think that's one thing that now and with the next administration coming in, is that any time we're looking at changing, that it's planned change and that everybody's at the table that will be affected by that change. And that we're not only looking at what do we need to change, but what will happen as a result of the change and what are the unintentional or unintended consequences. Because I feel that with our system… Oftentimes legislators will call and say, "Well, what mandated services to you have that shouldn't be mandated?" And conceptually and the basis and the premise of the mandates – anybody and everybody would agree in a child-serving system. We all agree. And I said, "It's not really "the basis of the mandates because I think "everybody would agree. But it's a solution "of a 20-page documentation. Or it's the additional "unnecessary bureaucracy that comes along with it." And I understand in my professional position at the state and local level – I understand what the different roles are. And I think that I would always say to the state: We understand when there's federal legislation that's passed, we understand then it's the state's role and obligation to then – as state licensing all children and youth agencies – of how are we going to comply with that. And I said, "Well, that is great. "We're more than willing to do it. "But why can't we just document it? "Why does it have to be another 30-page form, "or another…" Because the forms – we already are a system for compliance-driven, that it compromises the quality. Because then our caseworkers, who are audited annually, are audited on did they do the paperwork and forms and not necessarily the quality. So it's a really tough situation to be in of, "Yes, we can meet all the mandates, all the requirements. "But let's not have knee-jerk change." So much of our change in our system is the exception to the rule. One child dies – and maybe a person didn't do their job. Which every system, everybody in this room has an employee that they know of that doesn't do a good job. Why are we changing the entire system for the exception to the rule? It does not make sense. But I feel that that's where we're at. And that's where our system is at,

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is constantly changing the exception of the rule. We're the mouse in the wheel that just keeps running, trying to keep up with the pace of it. And it really compromises our ability to effectively serve kids and serve families. So really, in moving forward, everybody wants to change. We need to change. But let's make it planned change, and let's only change when there's a need for systemic change and we're not changing just for knee-jerk reaction or changing for an exception to the rule. Don Tangora I want to echo a couple thoughts here, CEO, Edison Court, Inc.; as we look back on it. Former Supervisor, Bucks I think that several of us here County Juvenile Probation have long histories in engaging the community. Back in '76, I went to a local community to convince them that they might want to participate in a diversion program using citizen volunteers. Ironcially, it was that same community that Jay and I went to to talk about putting three sex offenders in the group home. And a woman was quoted in the paper after I said, "It's good to come back "to Warrington Township because "you accepted me in '76 and believed me then." And the woman cited in the article, I think she might have yelled it, said, "We're not the same freakin' community "we were then, Pal!" [Laughter.] So, what's different? Maybe my role was different. When I did my doctoral dissertation, and I spent two years doing interviews on outcomes in Philadelphia courts. And I would interview people that came out of court hearings in which they'd perjured themselves and been found guilty. And I said, "So, what did you think?" They'd go, "Oh, that was really fair!" I said, "What do you mean that was fair? "They found you guilty." He goes, "Yeah, but I lied!" "Well, then what was fair about it?" He said, "Well, I got a chance to tell my side of the story." And I realized the A-#1 issue if you want to build compliance in anybody or anything – people have to have voice. If they don't have voice, they don't exist. And we've all had different roles here. Some of us – I know some of you. You've been real asses, at times, to people. Not me, of course… But you balance that – remember the "30-Minute Manager", Bruce? You really sucked, but you're a good guy!

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Let's do this to improve! It was about communication. I think when we've engaged volunteers – and you have all over the world [to Ted], and I've had my share of engaging and working with volunteers. They are interested. They want to come in. You can't get rid of them! They must spend 15, 20 years. They'll invite you – when their parents die, they say, "Could you speak at my mother's funeral?" I'm like, "Really?" "Well, she was a part of your volunteer group for all those years." They felt a connection to the system, the people, the judges, the court. And now we have county commissioners who grew up in that, and people all over the place. That's part of going out and selling our message about who we are and what we're trying to do, too. And without voice, our voices being heard from each other respectfully, where we can't talk over each other, I think is the only chance we have. It's the only hope we have. Because we're about behavioral change. Every provider here is working every day to get the individuals in their care to change. This is the way we talk to them all the time: "You need to change, Pal. Not me, but you." Well, yeah. We're ready to change as providers. We're open to change. We're open to dialog about changing and doing things differently. But, by the way, be prepared – because we've got a few thoughts, too! Judy Happ There have been pockets of events like this President, Youth Services or meetings where Children and Youth came together Alliance of Pennsylvania; with providers many, many times. Former Dauphin County And I realize we have – Juvenile Probation Officer I mean, just collectively in this room – fabulous ideas, people willing to do things. But the advancement of it forward with whoever is in those positions of authority, whoever they are, is where it needs to go and start doing the methodical – because I liked that word, echoed by Shara. I thought that was really the way to think about it. I hope there becomes a plan for the next steps, to keep advancing toward that. Because collectively we all get it and we know where it is, but it's got to become wider and purposeful. Almitra Sutton-Bey I think I'm just going to pass. Special Project Manager, Philadelphia County Children & Youth

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Anne Shenberger I only have a couple of thoughts. Former Southeast Region And they're only about half-hatched, Director, Children & so keep that in mind. Youth, Pa. Department of One of the things that I think we might want to do Public Welfare; as a next step is either local circles Former President & CEO, or reconvening this circle for a "next steps" Philadelphia Safe and kind of activity that brings in some of the discussion Sound that you all were having about the need for more public policy being written down and formulated. And maybe that forms the basis of the discussion with candidates in the governor's election and what's coming up in the fall. So that there's a planful process that people are going through, where we can show that we can professionally agree, disagree, have conflict, come up with suggestions and articulate them in a way that is understandable by people who know nothing about our system. Which I think is one of the things that we stumble on from time to time. The level of lack of understanding on the part of the general public of what we do. I don't think we give that enough credence sometimes. In one of my other jobs I have to explain that over and over again – "What's your organization? What do you do?" And I'm constantly amazed by people who really don't even understand what foster care is. Which, to me, it's a pretty simple concept. And they're like, "Huh?" So I think that communication piece and the marketing is really important. But we might think about how it would be good to position ourselves over the next few months. Susan Blackburn I want to say that I am so very grateful Balanced and Restorative to see everyone around this circle. Justice Specialist, Even five years ago, Juvenile Court Judges’ I can't imagine this would have happened. Commission; Former I've been in talking circles and restorative justice – Director, Somerset County and thank you for clarifying restorative practices [to Ted] – Probation and Youth for a long time. So I just want to leave us with Services if we could continue to come together in this fashion, and that we model what we say we're about. That we model restorative practices and respectful dialog.

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Bruce Grim I don't want to see the system return to Associate Director, Pa. the way it looked when I started in 1970. Council of Children, Youth There weren't a whole lot of options there & Family Services; for the juvenile court, in terms of agencies Former Chief, Berks willing to work with delinquent kids. County Juvenile Probation So at the risk of being a one-trick pony, again, timely payment for actual cost of service. That's so critical because – I think one of the most difficult things for me, since I took on my new role in my current career, has been to say goodbye to so many people that have been let go because their agencies have downsized or "rightsized" depending upon the rhetoric. And they weren't ready to leave the field, but the field somehow left them. I think it's time for us to look at just doing the responsible thing and finding a way to make it work. Jay Deppeler Ted, I spend my life in groups, Managing Partner, so this is very comfortable to me. Delaware Valley Forensics It's even more comfortable Psychological Services, when people aren't talking about Bucks County sex crimes, for a change, in a group. [Laughter.] Bob Costello That's actually the next go-around! Jay Deppeler Is that right? You're going first! [Laughter.] That may be the case. You know, people are talking about kind of the macromanagement of this system. And I think that it's a really important and relevant point. And the planned change issue, I think, is essential as well. When I think about this kind of macromanagement from the state level, we as providers are held to one standard, and that standard is excellence, right? We can't – you know, when we screw up – if something devastating, if something traumatic or tragic happens while kids are in our care or families are in our care, we're held to a very severe standard. And I think to a degree that's appropriate. But there needs to be degrees of freedom for providers to be creative as well. And as things become rigid from a top-down philosophy, it does not allow us to respond to the unique needs of our communities by being creative because we're being restricted by the very stringent rubrics that exist. The most stringent of those rubrics that I've had to wrestle with recently – and I pity those of you in this group who have also had to do that – are those Excel spreadsheets that we're given on a yearly basis, in order to justify

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our costs or perhaps to have our costs fixed. And one of the things that I find ironic, by the way, is we're generally pretty filled – we have about a 99% occupancy rate. And as a result of that – which would suggest to me that people like what we do. And we often have to have waiting lists for people to come into our facility. But as a reward for being well-liked, for providing a good service and for having a waiting list, our per diem goes down. Because there's a greater surface area across which to spread the costs. So that, to me, is counterintuitive and something, of course, that I've tried to – I've had debates with people in the county. And they understand my point, but they also fight me and say, "Well, the state's not going to like that." And I'm like, "I don't care if the state doesn't like it! "I don't like like this either!" So, there is no dialog there. It becomes very rigid. It becomes very one-way. And Sean, I like what you said – public policy, education and standing together. And I think that's probably where it's at. We have a greater voice together than we do independently. And we need to be mindful of that and continue to do this in an effort to really find the next steps. Paul Werrell I've seen how this format works through significant coursework. And I hope that a future dialog can be moved forward within this particular format. I want to thank Ted for taking a risk of doing this. And looking forward to future discussions. Craig Adamson I've come up with a list of solutions Executive Director, from what people said, Community Service and I think I can do this pretty quickly. Foundation & Buxmont We need some direction, cost of care, Academy timely payment, less paperwork, culture and trust-building, dialog and PR. That's the solution list that I heard from different people today. My concern is the same. Where do we go from here? And who's going to take the responsibility for taking this forward? And I don't think it's any one person. I don't think it's any one agency. I don't think it's the – I think as a collective group we all need to take responsibility for doing that. And you talked about a cross-section of people. I think that we have a lot of different groups represented today. And our hope is several people are going to watch this and are able to take it back to say, "This could be a first step to what we're doing in the future."

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And that's really my hope. I think we have to talk about it with other providers, standing together, the meeting on Monday with all the providers across the state. This story needs to be told, regardless of what's happening within the state. That's one of the things that, coming out of this – when Ted had originally approached me about creating a circle and, "How weird is that? How many people would show up?" I think the feedback we got is this is not happening now, and why not have this dialog? It's not happening now, and why not take the risk? I agree. I think this was worthwhile. And I learned a lot just from different people's perspectives today. So it gives me a broader perspective. I get kind of stuck sometimes day-to-day in what's going on with CSF. And it's helpful to kind of be pulled out of that and learn a little bit. So, thank you for that. Jonathan Henning One of the issues that – or maybe the phrase Chief Relations Officer, that's been used today is culture change. Bethany Children’s Home People believe that we need to change the culture in which we are, or at least examine it. Ted, you mentioned Sandra Bloom and the Sanctuary model. Two-and-a-half years ago Bethany Children's Home, along with numerous other private providers in the state that were selected, started working and training to institute the Sanctuary model in trauma informed care in our organizations. Some of the foundations of that model are shared governance and personal emotional safety. The ability to feel safe in sharing what it is that is an issue for you. And we've worked really hard at Bethany to include all employees and all of our kids in what we do going forward, in working together. And actually, I'm thrilled to share – a little plug here, my apologies – that we learned last week that we have been certified in the Sanctuary model. We are the first residential program in the state, and I'm sure only the first of what I hope will be many more, who will learn and utilize this model because it works. And we're seeing it benefit kids and our staff as well. I think the irony is that clearly around the room, we're not seeing from the higher levels of the state a willingness to involve and listen around the state – as the state has asked us to do with the Sanctuary model in our organizations. And I only wish that we can push the idea of Sanctuary a little further out.

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Sean DeYoung Thanks for inviting me today. Pennsylvania State I do wish that we did have representatives Director, The Bair from juvenile probation and DPW. Foundation I like what you said about safety. [To Jonathan Henning] I think a couple years ago a lot of agencies weren't feeling safe in sharing their feelings about the direction that we were heading in. And now I think people are because they have no choice. It's either speak up or die, so to speak. Hopefully, this will get everybody – more agencies – to the table to talk about these things. I just go back to two years ago or three years ago, when the mandate came down of the placement reductions and what that was going to look like. And a lot of providers didn't really ask the questions. What was the plan? We had a percentage out there, but what's the plan to do that? And it wasn't done in a carefully planned way. You'd just see across-the-board cuts in the number of kids in care. "Oh, well we want to reduce residential numbers." "What does that mean for foster care?" And I never got a straight answer from many people. But a lot of my peers, in just talking to people at different meetings, were afraid to ask questions. And afraid to give a suggestion that was maybe not along the same lines as Mr. Gold's point of view. Because they were afraid of retribution. And now a lot of those agencies are closed because they couldn't keep up with the trends that were happening. So we're at this unfortunate point, but hopefully – I don't want to beat a dead horse – we need to stand together. We need to ask those questions. We need to look at what the overall plan for the state is, what the goals are for the state. And Craig mentioned before he was all, you know – I don't think anyone in this room thinks it's a bad idea to reduce the number of kids in residential care. I mean, that just means we're doing our job and we're being successful. But when I have county workers telling me that if they place a kid, they're going to get in trouble – that's not healthy. Because then we're making very, very poor decisions about leaving kids in unsafe situations. And hopefully we can get beyond this point. And I really hope that we can all make a commitment to stand together and move forward and really launch this as a united voice. Thanks, again, for inviting me. Bob Costello I'd like to thank everybody for their participation.

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Part 5 Participants completed one of the following statements about the circle: "I learned…,"

"I realized…" or "I was surprised by…" Bob Costello Typically at this point, in most meetings, Circle Facilitator; the person in my chair says something Director of Training & to sort of wrap it all up. Consulting, International And in the nature of restorative, Institute for Restorative we really don't do that. Practices Graduate You got a 30-second cap. It's one sentence. School "I learned…" "I realized…" Or, "I was surprised…" And that'll be the way that we'll end. We'll just do one more quick: I learned, I realized or I was surprised. Just pick one of those, please. And complete that based on our two hours together. Ted Wachtel Or, "I pass." Bob Costello Or, "I pass." Ted Wachtel I realized about halfway through this session today President, International that we're committed to doing more of these, Institute for Restorative and we will keep you posted. Practices Graduate School; Founder, Community Service Foundation & Buxmont Academy Chuck Songer Is this thing on [referring to the microphone], Executive Director, or is it just a toy? [Laughter.] Pa. Children & Youth I suppose I re-learned what Jon and I learned Administrators' all those years ago – that we have Association way more in common than we do in differences. And we need to keep our eyes on that prize and move forward. Shara Saveikis I echo the same. I realized that we're all here Executive Director, for the same reason, the same purpose. Westmoreland County I'm happy to be a part of it. Thank you for the invitation. Children's Bureau And I'm excited about moving forward collectively, because I definitely think that is the best situation and solution – collectively we talk about what we do share and what our interests are and what our plan is, moving forward to make things better in serving children and families. Don Tangora I learned that Ted hasn't lost any of his passion. CEO, Edison Court, Inc.; I can remember seeing him come in Former Supervisor, Bucks and get yelled at a lot by judges and other people. County Juvenile Probation And he held his ground and made his money. [Winks.] Right? Because that's what everybody's worried about. You know, that Ted was making money… Crazy, the things you look back on

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and seemed important at the time. I also remember, too, that a judge told me one time – who I really respected. We were trying to get through a point, and he goes, "Look. Don, judges don't go to training, "especially from you." So, it's very difficult to have dialog up. If you're down, it's very difficult for you to have dialog up. You can say something, get yelled at and leave. But it's very hard to push from the bottom. But I learned in union negotiations – with the help of the county commissioners and judges, I started the court union in 1974. A lot of people thought that was a really dumb thing to do, including me because I thought, "I'm really going to get in trouble." And as we started going through contract negotiations, I learned something. There was only a breakthrough when somebody lost their temper. And my good friend Don Krauthammel completely went off his nut one time in union negotiations and yelled and got up and the whole thing. And they kind of escorted him out of the room and I thought, "Wow." The next meeting, we came in. There was a gigantic increase in the contract to us. I went, "Geez, maybe we've got something here." So we would kind of conspire to say who would lose their temper. And of course Ted wasn't around. He wasn't a county employee. We would have brought him in regularly. [Laughter.] But sometimes, you got to lose your temper. If you're underneath, to move up to the top, you've got to do that. And I think – politely – we're losing our temper today. Judy Happ I realize there's a lot of reasons President, Youth Services to still be hopeful for things to change. Alliance of Pennsylvania; Former Dauphin County Juvenile Probation Officer Almitra Sutton-Bey I was pleasantly surprised to hear Special Project Manager, so many similarities between Children and Youth Philadelphia County and juvenile justice and providers Children & Youth in the counties, specifically. And I am hopeful that things will begin to move forward.

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Anne Shenberger Well, I am surprised that I realized that Former Southeast Region it's really exciting to be here. Director, Children & And I'm excited about next steps. Youth, Pa. Department of Public Welfare; Former President & CEO, Philadelphia Safe and Sound Susan Blackburn I learned that the commitment around this circle Balanced and Restorative is really going to provide some very, very Justice Specialist, positive energy in our state. Juvenile Court Judges’ Commission; Former Director, Somerset County Probation and Youth Services Bruce Grim I was really surprised that the chiefs Associate Director, Pa. passed an opportunity to bash DPW. [Laughter.] Council of Children, Youth & Family Services; Former Chief, Berks County Juvenile Probation Jay Deppeler I realized that we all have a lot in common Managing Partner, and that together I think we can make Delaware Valley Forensics a significant difference, significant change. Psychological Services, Bucks County Paul Werrell I realize that there's still great people Associate Professor of with passion and commitment Criminal Justice, Cedar for the best interests of kids and families. Crest College, Allentown; Former Chief, Lehigh County Juvenile Probation Craig Adamson I realized that in order for our voice to be heard, Executive Director, it needs to come from varied people. Community Service Foundation & Buxmont Academy Jonathan Henning I also – going back to Chuck – Chief Relations Officer, realize that we still have an awful lot in common. Bethany Children’s Home And we still share the same goals. And that passion to get there provides a lot of hope.

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Sean DeYoung I realize our commonalities. Pennsylvania State I also realize that we have a battle ahead of us. Director, The Bair We have a long way to go to effect change. Foundation But I've learned that we have a lot of people that are committed to that, and I'm very encouraged by that. Bob Costello And I realized how important lobbying is. Parents of sex offenders aren't marching on the capitol, demanding better treatment for their kids. And so, it's the people in this room, whether you work for the county or the state or for a private agency, who are the people who get to do that, who get to stand up for the rights of the people that nobody else really seems to want to. So, that's what really struck me today.