October 24 Water Well Board
Transcript of October 24 Water Well Board
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WATER WELL BOARD HEARING, OCTOBER 24, 2013
VINCENZO PELLINO’S COMPLAINT AGAINST DERRY WELL COMPANY
Board Members of Record:
STEVE SMITH, PUMP INSTALLER DAVE HUNT, WATER WELL CONTRACTOR MICHELLE ROBBINS, DES
RICK SCHOFIELD, DES STAFF STEVE GARSIDE, TECHNICAL DRILLER RENE PELLETIER, DES STAFF
STEVE GUERCA, PUBLIC MEMBER RICK CHORMANN, STATE GEOLOGIST ROGER SKILLINGS, WELL CONTRACTOR
*BOARD:= Water Well Board (noted for each board member speaking)*Machain = Robert Machian, Pump Installer, Derry Well Co.
*McKissick = Hugh McKissick, Water Well Contractor, Derry Well Co.
*Steve Banton, Salesman, Clearwater Artesian Wells, on behalf of Derry Well
*Pellino = Vincenzo Pellino *Toop = Audra Toop, on behalf of Vincenzo Pellino
BOARD: Ah, Pellino and Derry Well Company. Ah, just as you know, ahh, Rick ah went out and ah supervised ah his
videoing of a well ah that was drilled by Derry Well. Ah the original complaint that came thru, ah I believe and I can be
corrected but was that the ah the amount of casing that was installed in the well was ah Pellino ah was suspect about
how much casing was put in the well. Ah so that was the original complaint that came through ah there was a couple of
well completion reports that were filled out but the most important well report that was filled out that we received was
from the licensed driller that signed the report. Ah There was another report that was on the paperwork where you
can fill out paperwork on putting a report but it was filled out by a non licensed person. Um so Um Rick um I think he
has a tape recording of that ah well that was installed and ah I think we’re gonna see what went on right?
SCHOFIELD: Yes, ah and that tape is in the machine, it’s ready to go. I have it queued the bottom of the well is, I forget
the exact depth but ah the concern was 232 feet was 232 feet of casing. Ah rather long tape is about 10 minutes of the
tape that gets you down to 120 feet. There isn’t a whole lot to see there so ah Kasey and Iqueued it to 120 feet to save
time. But I also wanted to mention this to Mr. Pellino give him the opportunity um if he wants the board to see the
entire tape, then I think he should have a say ah and ah there isn’t a whole lot to see from y’know the top to 120. But
that ah I just wanted to give him y’know an opportunity to speak on that whether he wants us to see the whole thing or
just from 120 down.
SKILLINGS: Ok. Mr. Pellino do you want us to see the whole tape or are you happy with what Rick said
PELLINO: (Inaudible)the whole tape as long as you see the first one is 10 feet we can go from the 100 feet down
BOARD: Right, that’s where they stopped they went down to 120 ah and there was a lot of material suspended in the
water and it was hard to see visibility very poor. So at 120 they stopped they installed the pump above the camera and
they turned the pump on to draw water from the bottom and that provided clarity ah so that’s where we are now at this
point. They just stop the camera and they’re gonna install the pump and turn the pump on.
SKILLINGS: Anybody on the board who wants to see from the beginning?
BOARD: No.
SCHOFIELD: And ah if you want to sit here you’ll be able to see the tv screen.
SCHOFIELD: Sediment you can see is dropping down at this point and when they turn the pump on it’ll start coming back
up.
SKILLINGS: Just for ah clari to clarify what that is. That is not uncommon seen in wells ah it’s iron ah that is actually
flowing. It does look white in the picture but if you were to discharge it out into a bucket, you would see it’s more a red
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BOARD: Mr. Chairman I assume the pump was removed just prior to the video tape.
SKILLINGS: Rick?
SCHOFIELD Yes it was
SCHOFIELD: Just for clarity I didn’t do supervise anything here. I was just present.
SKILLINGS: Ok
SCHOFIELD: I was just present.
SKILLINGS: You gave no direction.
SCHOFIELD: Right.
SKILLINGS: Can you help us why it’s not it it obviously the camera is going down the hole correct?
SCHOFIELD: No he’s turning the pump on.
SCHOFIELD: He just turned the pump on not the material is coming up.
BOARD: Any idea what the pumping rate was at this point?
SCHOFIELD: I don’t recall. Mr. Pellino do you remember? Was it 5 gallons per minute or something like that. I don’t know
if they said what the pumping rate was.
BOARD: Like they just pump it right up
SCHOFIELD: Going down now (inaudible)
BOARD: Bob, do you want to come up here and have a seat?
MACHAIN: (inaudible)
BOARD: Ok.
BOARD: Gray on the side is the casing?
BOARD: Mmm hmm
BOARD: He’s at about 232 (inaudible)the driveshoe
SCHOFIELD: I think John Hartley is waiting to see if it’ll clear up a little bit more. Before he goes down.
BOARD: How deep is it?
BOARD: All the way to the bottom of the well. Think it’s 250 feet. 59. 59.
BOARD: Goes back up and spends quite a bit of time at the driveshoe.
Schofield: That’s a sheeting I believe that’s a sheeting fracture 2 feet below the driveshoe at 234
PELLINO: It’s 2 feet above the bedrock
MACHAIN: (directed at Ms. Toop) dead fucking little cunt
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BOARD: Turns it back on again
?? Is this a Keller camera?
BOARD: Rick does move along a little faster?
SCHOFIELD: Yeah he goes all the way to the bottom pretty quick. See where the bottom is see if there is any additional
fractures in the borehole and then he comes back up and stops briefly at this again. He wanted to give plenty of time at
this location so everyone could see what’s happening here. Um rather have more video than less. Pellino paid asubstantial amount of money to have this done. I don’t know what it was but it was substantial. Ah it shouldn’t be much
more time. But there weren’t…there were no additional fractures in the well bore all the way down to 259 **(keeping in mind
the well depth is supposed to be @ 225.) And you can see the bottom of the well 259 then it comes all the way back up again,
pauses here again then pulls it out.
SKILLINGS: Are we all set?
BOARD: Roger what is the maximum depth the camera shows?
SCHOFIELD: 259
SKILLINGS: Anybody need to see more?
BOARD: (Jesus) laugh
BOARD: oh my God (inaudible)
MACHAIN: We can use this as references.
SKILLINGS: So, just to review the original complaint which was dated on June 5, 2013 I think it’s in your packet item 2B
BOARD: Yeah
SKILLINGS: Um, that the ah to Mr. Schofield. Dear Mr. Schofield which came ah into the DES. Rick I’ll let you read that for
us please.
BOARD: Ah which one (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: The first statement, as stated to you in my email. **this is Skilling telling Schofield to not read the subject line
SCHOFIELD: As stated to you in my email to you, there appears to be too many contradicting information provided to me
by Robert Machain. Reads Letter
SKILLINGS: Would the board agree, that the original what I hear was the complaint was how much casing is really in my
well? ** what the complaint about was in the subject line. ** 1ST time Skillings addresses what the complaint is about
BOARD: Correct
BOARD: I don’t know.
BOARD: Rick (inaudible)
BOARD: It went to small claims court disputing the bill. Which was disputing the amount of casing. ** 2nd time what the complaint
is about
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BOARD: There’s a lot of issues with this.
BOARD: Mr. Pellino was the original complaint or question about the amount of casing? **3rd time addressing what the complaint is
about
TOOP: That was
BOARD: Mr. Pellino Mr. Pellino
PELLINO: I was asking. I was asking about the integrity of the well. This is what my concern was. He was asking me what
did you put in the well, because I had no clue. ** FIRST ANSWER
SKILLINGS: Well was this complaint. Weren’t you questioning how much casing that put in the well? I don’t want to put
words in your mouth but what I’m.. **4TH time addressing what the complaint is about
PELLINO: He made it about the casings. ** SECOND ANSWER
BOARD: I’m sorry?
PELLINO: He made it about the casings, I just wanted to know information on the well regarding the work he did to it,
cuz nothing matched. The depth doesn’t match, the casing don’t match, the bedrock doesn’t match. ** THIRD ANSWER
SKILLINGS: In this, in this letter though, you question the casing and you say some wells in the area are about 100 feet.**5TH time addressing what the complaint is about
PELLINO: That was the only information I could go on. If I knew the well was in a non-conforming location, I would
have included it (inaudible) ** FOURTH ANSWER
BOARD: (cut’s Pellino off) Nope. Nope. I want to keep to this if you don’t mind. Originally you went to court, because
you’re questioning how much casing the driller put in the ground and you’re saying I don’t think you put in that much
and you went into court to say ok, he said/she said type of thing. Correct? **6TH time addressing what the complaint is about
PELLINO: NO. The initial was about the integrity of the well. He made it about the casings, I owed $3000 something
caings, $400 for something else. I held the check until he told me the truth about what he did to my well. This is what I
asked him. I sent him an affidavit, he wouldn’t sign it. He gave me a completion report instead. So, basically, I wanted to
know what he did to my well. Because he wasn’t forthcoming. He’s telling me over the phone I’m not putting the, says
I’m not gonna come up and (inaudible) you live too far away. So I had to (inaudible) ** FIFTH ANSWER
BOARD: That’s besides the unfortunately Mr. Pellino we’re we’re trying to stay with the complaint and the complaint by
what I read here, was I don’t I don’t think, I’m questioning how much casing you put in the well. **7TH time addressing what the
complaint is about
PELLINO: I questioned the casing to the depth, meaning every well I look at has 40% casing to the depth, this is my
concern, I said how much casing did you put in my well. ** SIXTH ANSWER ****CASING/DEPTH RATIO IS SIMILAR TO AN DRILLED OVERBURNED WELL
(GRAVEL WELL) AS APPEARS ON MAY 30, 2010 INVOICE
BOARD: Ok, Ok, does that, does that, thank you. Does that clarify some of this for you Steve?
BOARD: So was the complaint merely to confirm the length of the casing? We merely need to document how many feet
of casing there is. Period. That’s the complaint. **8TH time addressing what the complaint is about
BOARD: By the way I read this letter, and that’s what it says. Ok. **9TH time addressing what the complaint is about
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BOARD: Ok
BOARD: Now, that doesn’t mean if there isn’t other problems I’m just saying.
BOARD: Yeah that’s what I’m saying that’s exactly what the complaint is. **10TH time addressing what the complaint is about
BOARD: Right.
BOARD: So, I think we all can we all agree the complaint was about the amount of casing? **11TH time addressing what the complaint is
about
BOARD: He’s raising the issue about whether the compliance for the reporting requirements (inaudible) for his well,
that’s part of it to. I mean that’s sort of the background to this is it there’s uncertainty about the actual well construction
details that he’s paying for, so not just the casing, but it also calls into question everything else . Depth to bedrock there’s
so many inconsistencies, the date reporting, there’s no authoritative record of this well construction that the state is in
possession of. I think that’s an issue here as well because of the number of discrepancies and the date the well was
completed and so on, raises uncertainty. **THIS GUY IS INTELLIGENT
BOARD: I guess I wanted clarification in terms of the complaint. Is the complaint, I want to know to know how many feet
of casing there is, or is the complaint, I want to know the number of feet of casing is the proper number of casing. Tome, those are two very different questions and I’m not sure what the question is anymore. **12TH time addressing what the complaint
is about
BOARD: Let me help you here. Do we all agree, do we all agree there’s 232 feet of casing by our video?
PELLINO: No, 230 feet.
TOOP: There’s 230 feet. The top casing is 10 feet, and then it’s 20 feet…inaudible.
PELLINO: 228 feet in the ground.
BOARD: Well, do we all agree on the video it said 232?
BOARD: Yes. Bottom of the casing 232 by the counter on the video camera.
BOARD: Correct. And just to clarify for you, there is a distance between each coupling that when each piece of pipe is
screwed together they don’t come butt together so there’s a distance between the two, so you are gonna gain 11
lenghts of casing you’re gonna gain probably 2-3 inches over 11 lengths of casing. So you will pick up some distance
there so if you take 11 times 2 inches that’s almost two feet. ** They sued for 232, not 234.
PELLINO: He could’ve explained that, but he didn’t.
TOOP: Right, the top casing from the top before the coupling is 10 feet.
PELLINO: He said it was 12. It’s a lie. That’s the bottom line.
BOARD: For the board, do we agree there is approximately 230 feet of casing 32 feet of casing?
BOARD: Agree
BOARD: Mr. Pellino, just so you know this board has no authority to make him you give you money, or you pay
money. We have no authority of that. There’s nothing here ***SEE LINE 729 & 730
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TOOP: inaudible
PELLINO: The well is no good, it’s contaminated.
BOARD: Well just I want to tell you that we can
TOOP: (inaudible) hold them responsible for what they did
SKILLINGS: I want to just tell you we don’t have any authority with that, we have authority over the licensee. So now, I
have a question from one of the members what define contaminated for us.
PELLINO: Coliform bacteria
SKILLINGS: How many tests have you done?
PELLINO: One right after I ah
TOOP: Yeah, after we were requested to have it tested.
SKILLINGS: You’ve had one test done?
TOOP: Mmmhmm
SKILLINGS: And again ah wait just so just so I’m in the business I know, I have issues with coliform bacteria in wells that
we’ve drilled and sometimes coliform bacteria is a ah little problem child.
SIDE TWO
SKILLINGS: I read the test report, and it says present, that’s all it says is present. So I know the company the the the the
facility that did it they do present or present after or whatever that’s called.
BOARD: Absent
SKILLINGS: Present absent, right. And all it is it could be 1 it could be 2 it could be a very very low number. So what
happens is a lot of us guys will say well we want a number so we know if it’s high or if it’s low or too numerous to count
where is it you know in that. But all that iron bacteria that you see can hide coliform bacteria and you can’t get it it gets
stuck in there so the chlorine doesn’t take care of it. **no casing in bedrock, in a non-conforming location
PELLINO: I’ve seen other wells, they don’t look like that.
SKILLINGS: What’s that?
PELLINO: I’ve seen other wells that (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Oh yeah, unfortunately again that’s on your land it’s on your land that’s where it is. I just want to make sure
you understand the whole world of well drilling ok and what you’re dealing with in the ground. **??? Huh?
PELLINO: I also need to address the non-conforming location.
SKILLINGS: Ok, hold on a second, I’ll get back to you, all right, hold on. So, do we have any questions about the video?
No one has any questions about what they saw on the video?
BOARD: Nope.
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SKILLINGS: Dave?
BOARD: Roger, I do have a I have two questions I believe would be for Rick. One if he could explain what a sheeting
fracture is. And which actual well report are we going to be looking at.
SCHOFIELD: A sheeting fracture is generally a fracture that runs parallel to the surface of the bedrock. Ah and it is
believed to be created by compression on the bedrock surface by a lot of rock that was originally on top of that surface
many many years ago and then as that rock eroded away that weight would (inaudible) that rock and that the rock
breaks along intentional forces and a there is a weakness. So generally sheeting fractures are believed to be run parallel
to the top of the bedrock surface and they usually don’t go that deep. **this particular fracture is very close to the surface of the bedrock
CHORMANN: Yeah, sub-horizontal fractures that’s generally attributed to unloading of the rock mass. I mean this rock
could have been kilometers deep in the earth to begin with before
BOARD: So I think my basic question now would be, is that truly bedrock?
SKILLINGS: I’d I’d like for you to direct that question to Rick please.
BOARD: Mr. Chormann Mr. Chormann
CHORMANN: What we were seeing on that video?
BOARD: Yes
CHORMANN: Yeah, I would say without a doubt we were in a bedrock location. **bedrock location. Does not commit to competent bedroc
BOARD: Ok, that’s all I need
BOARD: Mr. Chairman, I’ve got a question
SKILLINGS: Yes.
BOARD: In the midst of looking at a complaint, other violations are revealed would the complainant have to file a new
complaint or do they all fall in and **REALLY??
BOARD: While we were investigating this we we honor other violations ah unfortunately, for the installer the licensee,
this is where things come about ah we would never know about what goes on so if we see violations, we have to address
them. **BUT DOESN’T ADDRESS THE ACTUAL ISSUES
BOARD: Ok, so to that note, regardless of what this complaint is about we found violations.
SKILLINGS: That’s correct.
BOARD: (We found violations (inaudible) where should I start?)
SKILLINGS: Ah, hold on, ok we want to know if anyone sees violations on that video. Dave?
BOARD: I think we should discuss stay strictly with the well construction first.
SKILLINGS: That’s correct.
BOARD: Thank you. Personally I do not see any violations. **The casing length is what was described on the report. The
sheeting fracture is bedrock. The casing is set in bedrock. The objective to drilling the well is to set the casing into
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bedrock, to prevent the protrusion of clay, silts and sand from entering the well and your next objective is to find cracks
and fractures within the bedrock to obtain water. **The only number that didn’t change, which happened to be the only number they could collect money on
CHORMANN: (The casings need to be sealed into competent bedrock.)
SKILLINGS: Rick, Steve, hold on.
BOARD: Ok. Which I believe was done.
SKILLINGS: We we hear you. Ah Rick Chormann, would you agree with um Dave’s statement that you believe it was set
into bedrock?
CHORMANN: I, well I think there is room for interpretation as to whether…it’s in bedrock, whether it’s competent
bedrock or not is I think subject to some interpretation given the proximity of the drive shoe to the sheeting fracture
which is only 2 feet away, so below it. Um, whether that interval of rock, you know, where the driveshoe is is in fully
competent rock, I, you know, one one could argue I think both ways on that. What..could you know that when you
install the casing? I’m not a well driller so I don’t I don’t know, I mean putting…setting the casing the depth so close to
that fracture, do you know, you stop drilling at that point to set the casing and then then you continue drilling so, it just
happened to be 2 feet above the 1st water bearing fracture you encounter? Or do you drill beyond that and then raise
the casing to allow that water in, I’m not sure of the actual practice so. **non-committal to competent bedrock
SKILLINGS: Well, um as a driller ah I would have to say that when, just so everybody knows, when you set casing into
rock can get tough to say ok, I’m going to set casing or I’m not going to set casing. That’s competent that’s not
competent. I’m not going hit a fracture a foot, 6 inches below that problem. That gets a little bit tough when to set that
and say I’m set in the casing. Um now once you set 200 and odd feet of casing and you drilled a foot, 2 feet, 3 feet
below that and you get into a fracture and and then we’ll call it a problem slot, most likely you are not going to pull
that casing back out. Ok. Um not saying you can’t but it gets really tough um to pull that casing back up. Um so some of
the drillers will drill further to look for water to get better quality to put a seal into the well um and then pick up the
water down further or some of the drillers might cement off that spot to try to get rid of that bad seam that’s there.
Um so as far as putting in more casing or enough casing, it gets a little bit tough a little bit tough of ah deciding when todo that. Now as far as you drilling, and they’re using a roller bit and saying well is that hard, is that competent,.um it’s
it’s it’s hard all the way through um and it um it it’s really um um to know as a driller without doing a video the way we
showed it here, to say I should put more casing in, which is almost impossible, um it gets really really tough. **THIS IS A WELL
DRILLER WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.
BOARD: What the video doesn’t show is the character of the rock that’s beyond the casing of what was being drilled
through to the point- **???? Bedrock reported at 220 & 225.
BOARD: Above it. Above the driveshoe.
BOARD: -I mean, you’ll never know that so…
BOARD: You’ll never know.
BOARD: …you can only assume that it was competent rock up to the point the decision was made to set the casing. I
mean clearly, there is some weakness in the rock below the driveshoe, I mean and that’s that’s the production zone. Um
there wouldn’t be water in that well pro.. or much water in that well without that sheeting fracture and it’s 20 gallons a
minute as repor… I mean it’s a fairly high yield zone and there’s no reason to reason to think that there’s a water quality
issue associated with that water. I mean that’s…a lot of wells get there water from sheeting fractures and and granites I
mean that’s that’s very much common, so.
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BOARD: Yes Steve
BOARD: Ah, I need two things clarified in terms of the well dril.. the well completion reports. Ah the well that was
drilled on May 23rd shows casing into the bedrock of 7 feet and the well that was drilled on June 20th shows 12 feet, so
I think we need to know which report is correct….
TOOP: Neither.
BOARD: …and um I have seen reference in some of these documents using the term of non-conforming well. I’d likeus to confirm whether it’s a non-conforming well or not because then that makes, because as I understand the rules
these amounts of casing….
BOARD: No
BOARD: … are kind of irrelevant. If it’s a non-conforming well
BOARD: No. It’s beyond the 40 feet already. ** We602.05 (k) (1) Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where bedrock is less than 20
feet from ground surface.
BOARD: So, so this this is indeed a conforming well? Is that accurate?
BOARD: Conforming location?
BOARD: Conforming location.
BOARD: We’re gonna get into that
BOARD: Ok, so that’s a question I need answered and which well drilling report is accurate. I think we need to know too.
SKILLINGS: Well, the acceptance of the board, the acceptance of DES is of the report that was sent in by the registered
driller who signed, one of them signed by the registered driller with his license number and the other one was ah
signed by a **non-registered driller.**so Robert Machain is a non-registered driller?
BOARD: Ok so the well was drilled on May 23 rd, and the casing is into bedrock 7 feet
SKILLINGS: Well that that, there’s a discrepancy about that as well. But what I’m saying is that we’re looking here at the
board as the one that was done by the registered driller.
BOARD: The one on the 23rd. Ok. Thank you.
SKILLINGS: But again, like the conversation that went on here, y’know, how far it’s in the rock, you can have all the
discussion you want about 7 feet, 12 feet ahhh this is gonna be ya it is, it isn’t. Y’know, cus one side is gonna say one
thing, the other side is gonna say…We’re never gonna know. Ok, so we can only see this
BOARD: Ok. Right. Right. Ok, and and so we also need to confirm if the location is a conforming location
BOARD: That’s correct.
BOARD: Ok
SKILLINGS: But I need to go back to ah the rules say that the well has to be…The casing has to be put into competent
bedrock.
BOARD: Right. Right.
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BOARD: I refer back to Rick to ask him, do you believe that that is competent bedrock? Do you want me to define
competent for you, what it says here….
CHORMANN: Well, I would, I mean. I guess I would I would say that it is. I mean that would be my judgment. Based, I
mean you’re drilling your 230 feet above that, um there seems to be, there doesn’t seem to be a large amount of
fracturing right at the bottom of the driveshoe, I mean I **NON-COMMITTAL
BOARD: Can we run the tape again?
BOARD: Yea, watching something different
BOARD: Yes Steve.
BOARD: You won’t be able to tell…
CHORMANN: You’ll know the 7 feet above it if that’s solid rock or not. And that he just ran into where his driveshoe sits
happened to be a fracture zone or (broken up) and then 2 feet below the sheeting fracture.
SKILLINGS: We don’t. But he’s asked I think some are ah ah ah didn’t see, I I think some saw something different. I think
there’s a question there on whether the casing driveshoe is sitting on some solid rock from a distance, I don’t care if it’s
6 inches, or if it’s a foot. There is solid rock that it’s sitting on for some distance. Hold on Dave. Um so that what’s
CHORMANN: Well, the character I mean it’s obviously different than what we see below the sheeting fracture. So.
SKILLINGS: Yeah but we’re talking about where the casing is set. Is the casing set on what looks to be solid?
CHORMANN: Not as solid as what’s below the sheeting fracture, I don’t know if I would call it competent or not, I mean
again, the drillers I mean you have a functional operational definition of what’s competent and how you, what you sense
when you’re drilling the well to make that determination.**NON-COMMITTAL
SKILLINGS: Well that’s why I said I could read what the rules say for competent bedrock.
BOARD: That’s what we’re going by is the rules.
SKILLINGS: Right, let’s refresh. Ah, WE 101.08 states, has a definition ah, competent bedrock means bedrock, which is
structurally sound…and exhibits a minimal, minimum of fractures, joints, parting faults and chemical or physical
weathering that would degrade the structure, integrity or increase the hydraulic conductivity of the of the parent
rock. For the purpose of this rules of these rules, competent bedrock shall have the ability to sustain an open
borehole to accept the well casing, accommodate a hydraulic seal, which prevents the likelihood of ground water
from entering the well, along or underneath the casing and prevent groundwater from entering the well by way of
enhanced permeability features which such as fractures, joints and crevices**CAVITIES immediately below the casing. So
that’s what the rules state. So for the board, do you believe that this well, by the definition is in competent bedrock?
BOARD: I’d like to see the picture again.
BOARD: I’d like to see the picture.
SKILLINGS: Dave?
BOARD: Roger, would it be prudent to ask the physical equipment machine operator to try to describe to us what he
encountered, and what made him decide competent was competent…
SKILLINGS: We can do that. Yes we will
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BOARD: ..in his own words.
SKILLINGS: So, let’s run can we run the tape. Can you fast forward it so…
BOARD: Yeah
BOARD: And you (inaudible) shut the lights off yuk yuk yuk
BOARD: My question is, what are we gonna learn? You’re not going to get a unanimous decision if this is in competent
bedrock, unless you get a mighty small person to push down that hole and have a look.
BOARD: That’s right, what are we looking at?
BOARD: What exactly are we looking at? Water quality is fine, got a little (inaudible) coliform, iron and manganese that’s
one of New Hampshires best kept secrets, it is what it is. So, I don’t know where the hell we’re going with this but
BOARD: inaudible.
BOARD: Inaudible
BOARD: Here we go.
BOARD: Now it’s going?
BOARD: No, you were fast forwarding
BOARD: inaudible
BOARD: Now we’re not fast forwarding.
BOARD: Slo mo
BOARD: There we go
SKILLINGS: So, while we’re waiting for Rick to get this way, to where we wanna see um maybe we can have Hugh explain
to us, his story. I believe you drilled this well?
MCKISSICK: Yeah, I happened to be on the rig that day, normally I wouldn’t be, but I was there that day. And ah
(inaudible) sand and gravel, y’know, hit it so hard, y’know, put 12-1400 lbs on a roller bit, y’know, crank a line on it so
you get (inaudible) you don’t have the advantage of camera to see, while you’re in it, but you got experience of down
pressure, (inaudible) would you like to set it with (inaudible) maybe, but you can a lot of them up there, I’ve seen a lot o
them there going 7-800 feet (inaudible) regardless of the point, when I was drilling, um we had down pressure on it,
with the roller bit, as soon as we hit competent rock we 12-1500 lbs of down pressure rotation was a little (inaudible), 7-
800 lbs normal drilling procedures if any of you who are drillers and run rotaries it’s normal procedure to down pressure
and roller bit. You know, you don’t, this is the first time I ever got to look at one of my wells, and I never had any issues,
but um, would you like to have something prettier, ya suppose you would but sometimes ya drill ya hit plenty of water, I
blew it clean, which is pure air it is coming up clean we were measuring it in a bucket, and figured, we hit water and
yknow that was that. I mean I mud pit I had behind the rig was flowing up because we hit so much water and (inaudible)
and water was overflowing the pit, obviously we couldn’t drill much further it was blowing out of my mud pit and, we
had plenty of water and didn’t anticipate we were (inaudible) **WHAT??
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SKILLINGS: All right Hugh, thank you. I I will again, you know, I’ve been in the business now for over 40 years, and ah
drilled myself for 15 years, right in the beginning, every day and ah after that a little bit more, when we didn’t have help
come in, so like that so what Hugh says is exactly what a well driller goes through..
BOARD: That’s right
SKILLINGS: …it is exactly what he goes through Um I will ah say to everybody here that is that is the way it’s done.
BOARD: So you’re you’re using the downward pressure on the bit as an indication that I’m assuming the more pressureyou need then that’s an indication that the more competent the bedrock is?
SKILLINGS The more
BOARD: The more you can apply
SKILLINGS: Yeah, well there’s a few things that come into play. One is how much you can apply how ah how deep are
you to bedrock, cuz you got a lot of whip in the drill rod, so you gotta be careful how much you put on it, and then the
smoothness, and then the smoothness of it too. So if you get smooth ah rotation it usually means you’re in something
that’s pretty consistent. Co…Y’know, very consistent. Where as when you get it very jumpy and y’know, you’ll get into
things (inaudible) and crumbly. The other thing is that you’ll get into some caving, cuz when they are mudding along likethey are they, you don’t get all chunks to come out, so they get stuck around the bit so the bit will have to grind them
up, but once you get that smoothness going on then then then you’re you’re good. Y’know, you feel that you’re in what
we’ll call competent consistent bedrock.
BOARD: inaudible
SKILLINGS: But, is there a crack down the side is a crack here and there?
BOARD: You don’t know.
SKILLINGS: Who knows?
BOARD: And typically how long do you want to get that indication that you’re in good bedrock before you make that
decision ok let’s pull everything out, let’s set the casing and (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Here we go, let’s look at here, so, for everybody, where’s the driveshoe?
BOARD: I see the ring.
SKILLINGS: Can you see the ring up high?
BOARD: ya ya
SKILLINGS: So what you’re looking at, there is, correct me if I’m wrong Rick, it looks like competent or it looks like
consistent rock around
BOARD: Roger can I say, This is the casing we’re looking at, right?
BOARD: inaudible
BOARD: the gray is the casing
BOARD: And the camera will be back down
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BOARD: inaudible they waited so long.
BOARD: I would have to venture a guess, this is the driveshoe.
BOARD: So that’s rock we’re looking below the driveshoe.
BOARD: Yep, that’s right
BOARD: inaudible
BOARD: So Part of that is flat, part of it’s all stubbly what does that mean?
BOARD: All raggedy
SKILLINGS: Yeah, but there’s a ring about I dunno, about 3-4 inches there that we see that looks consistent right
around.
BOARD: I disagree
BOARD: That is the driveshoe…
BOARD: That ring is the driveshoe
BOARD: ….now it starts to get more consistent, but I still see cracks.
BOARD: That looks like the fracture
BOARD: And then that’s the big fracture
SKILLINGS: Back that up again Rick just real quick
BOARD: I got it I think.
BOARD: Yep
SKILLINGS: Back it up a little further, right to the driveshow
BOARD: I’ll tell you when
BOARD: I said ok
SKILLINGS: Stop
SKILLINGS: Back up a little more Rick, I mean Steve
BOARD: Bring it back more
BOARD: Back more?
SKILLINGS: I want you to come back…yea. Right there stop. So we can see the buildup on the casing. That’s what we’re
seeing is the buildup.
BOARD: Correct
BOARD: And then Right there. Stop
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BOARD: Here’s the bottom of the casing, here’s the bottom of the driveshoe. As I interpret that picture.
BOARD: That’s correct
BOARD: inaudible. Keep going. K.
BOARD: Woops sorry
BOARD: Inaudible. This is where he inaudible
SKILLINGS: All right. I think we’re good. Steve. Thank you.
BOARD: The bottom of the driveshoe. Competent bedrock.
BOARD: Shut it off.
BOARD: And the next question is, do we actually have water flow underneath the casing?
BOARD: inaudible
BOARD: Can you shut it. Can you shut it off. Turn the lights on. Yes Dave.
BOARD: Roger, the book doesn’t say, the law, the rule does not say you will have a perfect symmetrical hole at the
bottom of the seal hole it’s only feet of the drive. There’s obviously no sand, silt, or intrusion or anything under that
casing. The seal is the seal. Our objective as a driller is to encounter fractures and voids that produce water for the
customer. I don’t that casing was set with any forethought or malice or disregard to the rule.
SKILLINGS: No. I would, I would I would agree with you there. There was no malice.
BOARD: So I’m not gonna I’m not gonna find any wrongdoing with the construction of the well, myself.
SKILLINGS: Ok, so Rick when you were at that site (moving to) there were observations that you’ve made, and the other
observations I believe, location?
SCHOFIELD: That’s right. The well was located 50 feet from the edge of the road, (from the front of the road) um and I
also measured, when I went out the 2nd time the distance from the well to the septic tank, which was 76 feet.
BOARD: Was the tank visible?
SCHOFIELD: Yes, there’s no cover on it, I mean no opening, no soil on top of it.
BOARD: K. and the field was further along, easy to identify.
SCHOFIELD: It was beyond that. We also looked at stake and old stake that was in the ground, Mr. Pellino pointed out.
Thought that might be the original stake that the septic system designer put in. And ah, I measured the distance from
the well to that stake, I forget what that was. And then I measured the distance from that stake to the septic tank, and
that was 56 feet. So that location, would have been also a non-conforming location cuz it was too close to the septic
tank. Ah **he knew the design plans would not have been approved, this is when the plans disappeared
BOARD: Was there any identification on that stake that said well on it?
SCHOFIELD: No, and I I talked to Mr. Pellino afterwards, he explained there is a number of stakes out there and that may
not have been the one the designer had originally (inaudible) for the well. I mean it may have been placed by the
designer, but not for the well.
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SKILLINGS: So, the well location right now is how far from the septic tank?
SCHOFEIELD: 76 feet.
SKILLINGS: And the original plan was to be 50….
SCHOFIELD: There was no original plan. That we have. There was an original design, that was approved by DES, but we
don’t have that design anymore. Cuz DES records indicate that the septic system was never inspected they never got an
operational approval, so the design that was originally submitted was destroyed. They keep em for so many years, if thesystem not built they destroy it. We don’t have it. We don’t know where the original location for the well was
supposed to be. ?
SKILLINGS: So, you don’t, there is no plans here of an original location
SCHOFIELD: No.
SKILLINGS: So the location to meet the 75 feet radius, could have been made on this lot?
SCHOFIELD: It could have been, yes, the lot is big enough. Ah the the orientation of the lot, and the slope and trees
would have would have made it difficult. It would have, they would have to build a road further back, would have had
to cut trees, and built a road for access of the drilling equipment to get far enough back away from the road and away
from the septic system to meet all the 75 foot radius. **602.05 (d) RSA 485-A:30-b, ENV-Wq 1008.06 **making excuses for Derry Well
SKILLINGS: Um ok I think that um, we ah Hugh is Steve here for you, who who, oh I’m sorry I’m sorry didn’t see you
there, ah Steve ah would you address yourself to the…do you mind talking?
BANTON: Nope.
SKILLINGS: Ok Steve would you address yourself for the board?
BANTON: Yeah, my name is ah Steve Banton. Presently I work for Clearwater Artesian Well Company Incorporated. Ah
the owner of the company, Bruce (Maldridge sic) ahm, there are some places in the state that (inaudible) for other well
companies and I’ve had these customers some of them (inaudible) there are some places that that ah Clearwater will
not go whatever the reason might be, usually it’s too far to ledge or it’s too far in distance and ah I found um that ah I’ve
had a relationship with Derry Well and they were willing to take on my existing customers, and maintained them and ah
(Inaudible) ah that’s how I got involved with it, was cuz Bruce will not drill it (inaudible) **Not a licensed Well Driller, not qualified to select
location, and Vincenzo told him he was to be present.
SKILLINGS: And what involvement did you have on this particular site?
BANTON: ahh I originally I talked to the homeowner, and ah I and I went to Bruce to see if he would drill there, he said
absolutely not and so I called Hugh from Derry Well, and asked him if he’d be willing to drive there and he said yes. So
when I met the customer, I explained that to him, and ah ah he signed the contract, and I believe he gave me a check
(inaudible). **Was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at this hearing, most likely drugs
SKILLINGS: Did you locate the well?
BANTON: Well, it was a dual thing, we had where the well was supposed to go, I explained to the customer on that,
because it’s all sand, and it’s at such a downhill slope, that he’s gonna have to cut all these trees, and he’s gonna have to
build a (inaudible) and he may be able to get a rig down in there, but you’d never gonna get it out. Because it’s
(inaudible) and ah he was not willing, ah he did not want to do that because it was gonna cost him a lot of money, and I
didn’t blame him, and so he asked me where could we get a rig where we wouldn’t have to be cutting trees down and so
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on and so forth. So ah y’know I asked him well where’s your leach field, as long as your 75 feet from the leach field and a
septic tank I believe as well I explained to him. Um then he could put it y’know he could put it where he want as long as
you’re 75 feet from the tank the field and off property line and ah one spot where we could (inaudible) wouldn’t have to
do anything more excavation which was on the opposite side of the house where the leach field was and ah I asked him
y’know are you about 75 feet from that direction, he say (inaudible). And ah, years ago, we used to be able to encroach
on the road ah and include that in on the 75 foot radius however those rules have changed, which is ah ah probably
(inaudible) **Not a licensed Well Driller, not qualified to select location, and Vincenzo told him he was to be present.
SKILLINGS: (inaudible) Keep to it, we understand ok did you dowse the well?
BANTON: Ya, ok So yeah, Did I dowse it? Pfff well, I don’t really remember whether I dowsed it or not, um but it’s very
possible that I cou I could have the fact of the matter is that’s that was the distance was far enough away from the from
the tank and the field where we could get a rig without doing all the excavation work. That’s correct, now I might have
dowsed it, but when it’s that far ledge dowsing that’s pretty (inaudible) There’s a lot of wash wells up that neck of the
woods (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Any questions from the board for Steve? Thank you.
PELLINO: I’d like to submit something that he’s lying here
SKILLINGS: Well, hold on to that just tell us the facts don’t don’t make accusations about people (inaudible)
PELLINO: (inaudible)
TOOP: hold on, ah. He wrote on a Derry Well contract, he recommended an excavator, um that he writes something like
WE’VE used before, it’s his handwriting, his phone number, he did have someone there doing the excavation, he was
willing to pay the guy to do whatever he needed to do, remove the tree, it’s on here, it’s in his handwriting.
PELLINO: Doesn’t matter. He’s lying
SKILLING: Steve would you agree on this, I can show you this, but it says excavation needed to dig pit and tree behind
removed. So I’m saying you’re talking about where the well is going, correct.
BANTON: Yeah (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Would you agree to that? That’s the way I’m reading that. I’ll see about getting someone to do excavation,
we have a local guy we’ve used in the past, I’m sorry but I read this and you know, it’s unfortunate that you’re not in
the business and sometimes us in the business (inaudible) the way we do it every day. I read this as he’s going to dig the
trench from the well to the house
PELLINO: (inaudible)
SKILLING: It doesn’t say he was going to build a road out back, and down the hill
PELLINO: inaudible
TOOP: No, no no no, he did have somebody there to do the excavation, where the excavation need to be done, y’know,
we didn’t know, no body knows.
SKILLINGS: Well I’m reading what’s here, ok and this says to me
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TOOP: about how he presented himself and he presented himself as a Derry Well employee, and that’s confirmation.
BANTON: May I say something? May I say something?
BOARD: Mumbling
SKILLINGS: Yes Steve?
BANTON: Ah Just just for the board, this is the 1st time I ever laid eyes on this lady, never met her before, don’t knowwho she is, so how she can speak about what I did or said is beyond
SKILLINGS: Ok. Is that true he’s..you never met him before?
TOOP: I’ve never met him, no.
BOARD: This is going to be hours of he said/she said so here’s the facts, we’ve got a well, it meets setbacks from the
leach field and septic system, (inaudible), water quality to me is fine, other than the presence or absence of
(inaudible) coliform.
BOARD: Total coliform
BOARD: E.Coli clean. No E. Coli, so looking at that well, a lot of iron, a lot of manganese if it was disinfected (inaudible)
presence of bacteria, Derry Well (inaudible) 20 gallons per minute, 230 232 feet of casing, choose your weapon, ah
looking at the initial report, they say the well was 285 feet, appears it is only 259 feet, so when they should’ve
(inaudible) from what I see, so what are we arguing about here? Where are we going? Got a well, there’s water, we got
20 gallons per minute, got casings there, some think it’s maybe competent, well we’re not sure, that’s probably true if
you put a camera in every well we drill. So where are we at? We’re going to be here forever he said/she said/ they said,
it’s a moot point to me. The issue is, personalities aside, looking at the well, is it acceptable or it isn’t, that’s the decision
here.
SKILLINGS: Ok, I’m ready to, just like Rene said, unless there’s specific questions here, I we need to have a finding here
whether this well is an approved well or not, ok.
BOARD: Roger, I’d like to make a motion the well was constructed per state regulations and it be accepted, the well
completion report be accepted, and it (inaudible), completed water well, based on our rules and regulations. And I don’t
think the complaint, I would say it’s a non-founded complaint and I don’t believe it should go to the registry.
SKILLINGS: So, can you clarify that motion (inaudible)
BOARD: I may not have put the words together, but. I would like to make a motion that the complaint be not a non-
founded complaint, the well construction meets the water well rules, and regulations, and guidelines. The well
completion report, that I believe Mr. Schofield has, be accepted as is and that the complaint does not go to the registry,
being unfounded.
SKILLINGS: Well, Rick can it not go to the registry?
SCHOFIELD: If the board finds there is no basis for the complaint, it will not go on the registry.
PELLINO: You guys don’t apply rules? Nothing? My well is a high risk.
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SKILLINGS: We have a motion Is the board clear on the motion?
BOARD: Do we care if the report was a year late?
TOOP: Well, that’s another thing..
SKILLINGS: No, no**refuses to let Robert Machain’s fraudulent report be addressed
TOOP: Ya, ya
PELLINO: You didn’t address non-conforming location (inaudible) you’re not addressing anything.
SKILLINGS: No, no no we’re not going to hear it. We have a motion on the floor.
TOOP: That form, signed by Machian, was sent on July 27, 2012 60-days after the job was done, to him. 60-days. It
wasn’t technically (inaudible) a year late.
SKILLINGS: That is that is a that is a licensing problem with the licensee with the board it’s not it’s not part of the
complaint
TOOP: It was used as material evidence against him.
BOARD: That’s not part of it
SKILLINGS: It’s not part of the…this complaint on the casing and the quality of the water
PELLINO: You’re not addressing anything, you’re not addressing…The well is defective.
TOOP: Because there was no other information on the report that he mailed to him. There was nothing about the
non-conforming location there was no anything, he had nothing to go by.
BOARD: Is this (non conforming) or not?
PELLINO: Non-conforming location.
SKILLINGS: We have a motion on the table, so let’s hear the motion first. I need do I get a second (inaudible) the motion
is (inaudible). Hearing no second, then we’re going to have more discussion. Yes, Steve.
BOARD: Is this well indeed a conforming or non-conforming location. I’m still not clear of this, I know it’s 75 feet from
the septic, that’s conforming.
TOOP: It’s non conforming.
SKILLINGS: Maam, please
BOARD: But, in terms of the distance from the property lines and the street, is this under our rules a non-conforming
location or a conforming location.
SKILLINGS: Rick, would you answer that question.
SCHOFIELD: Yes, it’s a non-conforming location.
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BOARD: And what are the rules in terms of casing into bedrock on a non-conforming location.
SCHOFIELD: A minimum of 40 feet of casing in the well ** We602.05 (k) (1) Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where
bedrock is less than 20 feet from ground surface.
BOARD: Total
SCHOFIELD: N
BOARD: Total, total **SAYS THIS TO TRY TO TRICK US INTO BELEIVING THIS WELL WAS NOT AT RISK AND HAD SUFFICIENT CASING FOR THE LOCATION. ** We602.05 (k) (1)
Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where bedrock is less than 20 feet from ground surface.
BOARD: And sealed to competent bedrock
BOARD: How far into competent bedrock does the rules say it has to be?
SCHOFIELD: 10 feet
BOARD: In a non-conforming location?
SCHOFIELD: In any well
BOARD: Ok
BOARD: And ah the well casing has to be grouted
BOARD: So you don’t have that here
BOARD: Well there’s more than 40 feet of casing ** We602.05 (k) (1) Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where bedrock is less
than 20 feet from ground surface.
BOARD: But it’s not 10 feet into competent bedrock
BOARD: That’s based on this report it’s only 7 feet into competent bedrock
BOARD: And it’s not cemented
BOARD: It’s not grouted
BOARD: It’s not grouted?
BOARD: It would be 6 feet because you have a 1 foot stick up above the ground surface
BOARD: He indicates it was grouted
BOARD: It was mudded
BOARD: It says grouted
Board: {whispers}
All I see is (inaudible)
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BOARD: I I see, I’m representing public health here, I’m not a well driller, but I see a well that’s got 6 feet into competent
bedrock in a non-conforming location, I see that as a violation of the rules, I don’t see that as..that’s not a typographical
error, if it is, shame on him
SKILLINGS: So do I have a motion on the board from anyone else as far as this well being an illegal well, that does not
meet state requirements
BOARD: I would make a motion that based on the well drilling report showing that the well was drilled on May 23rd
2012, which is the report signed with the licensee number indicates that there is that the casing is 6 feet into
competent bedrock and it needs to be at least 10 feet into competent bedrock and therefore that well violates our
rules
SKILLINGS: And location? You talked about location
BOARD: It actually doesn’t really matter then whether it’s a conforming well or not, every bedrock well according to
the rules requires 10 feet of casing into bedrock. This well only has 6
CHORMANN: Regardless of whether the bedrock is competent or not
BOARD: Whether it’s conforming or not, it only has 6 feet of casing into bedrock based on the well driller’s report.
SKILLINGS: So, your motion is maybe? I interrupted you, I’m sorry. Your motion is?
BOARD: Is to acknowledge that this well does not meet the requirements of casing into competent bedrock.
SKILLINGS: Do I have a second?
BOARD: I’ll second that
SKILLINGS: All in favor?
BOARD: Opposed
TAPE 2:
BOARD: Because um, I’ve been in this business for 25 years, and as Roger has said, it’s not terribly unusual to find,
common to find coliform bacteria in wells and they need to be disinfected, they needs to be flushed, and sometimes you
have to do that multiple times. One test doesn’t tell you that the well has a bacteria issue. But my concern is, as we sit
on this board to enforce the rules, it seems to me this well does not meet the rules and I and I don’t think our role here
is to only enforce the rules when there is a health risk as a result if the rules is the appropriate rule, than we should
expect our drillers to meet that rules. And this doesn’t meet that rule now whether or what what the consequence of
that is I think would need a discussion after a vote in terms of how we rectify it, but I guess I’m just trying to establish a
fact of whether or not as Dave said, Dave’s initial thought was this well meets all the rules, therefore there is no issue,
we’re done, I’m suggesting that this well does not meet all the rules therefore we’re not done. **WATER WAS TESTED 3 WEEKS AFTER
BEING DISINFECTED, AND 2 MONTHS AFTER BEING DISINFECTED, AS STATED TO RICK SCHOFIELD IN AN EMAIL SENT WITH THE TEST RESULTS
BOARD: Still, at the end of the day, rules are rules are rules, at the end of the day when you talk about non-conforming,
(inaudible)we’ve been around long enough to know that you’re always concerned about something short circuiting
(inaudible) situation with 232 feet of casing, probably 100 feet of overburden. (Inaudible) so the reality is is if it’s 7 or 6
feet 7 feet in competent bedrock that’s where the water is probably coming in, it’s coming under it, so at the end of the
day what was the resolution of the solution to this meeting I mean considering all the (inaudible) the yield, public health
and safety (inaudible) a rule that’s 3 feet shy (inaudible) so at the end of the day where do we go
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BOARD: My suggestion is would be the well be shocked and chlorinated several times, and I think the bacteria will go
away. I don’t think this issue is related to the bacteria problem. I’m just merely trying to document whether or not this
was a violation. So, that if in 18 months there’s another complaint about a similar circumstance we have on record that
this happened, we documented it. So if we see a trend a year 2 3 years down the road that this particular company is
doing this frequently, then we have that history documented that and we can address that. But in this particular case,
based on my experience with wells and with water quality in New Hampshire, I don’t think this is the source of the
bacteria. I think there just wasn’t enough disinfection to kill the bugs because of the iron because of manganese because
of the (inaudible) in that well. .**WATER WAS TESTED 3 WEEKS AFTER BEING DISINFECTED, AND 2 MONTHS AFTER BEING DISINFECTED, AS STATED TO RICK SCHOFIELD
IN AN EMAIL SENT WITH THE TEST RESULTS
SKILLINGS: Dave?
BOARD: Well, Rick to be fair to the well drilling community and the public sector, we just had a dug well replaced,
because it was installed crooked.
BOARD: No No (inaudible)
BOARD: Let’s say, let’s say it didn’t meet our criteria, in this case and that well supposed to be decommissioned, now in
this case, we find this poor construction or whatever it may be, I would say that the well needs to be abandoned. Fill it
up with cement and grout, and fill those nice fractures right up, you’re gonna have to drill within a few feet of this well.
Best location on the lot, yes or no?
BOARD: Yes.
BOARD: Ok so now we drill relatively close to this one. But we put in 240 feet of casing, you’re going to be looking at
the same people in a month and they’re going to be saying we have an 1100 foot well that makes no water at -
all…**WELL HAD A LOCATION WHICH MET THE 75-FOOT RADIUS
BOARD: That’s why I’m not suggesting the well be abandoned
BOARD: …and depth to bedrock is very much open to opinion. Roger could say it’s 210 feet to bedrock, I could go in
with my machine
BOARD: We still need to document
BOARD: I understand, I understand, that’s why
BOARD: It’s not 10 feet of casing
BOARD: I’m trying to (inaudible) why I’m not concerned about a couple feet short of casing, in one well report they have
12 feet of casing
BOARD: That’s not a legal document. That’s not a legal document.
TOOP: that’s not what they told us in court (inaudible)
BOARD: inaudible
PELLINO: they should be arrested for this.
BOARD: Ok, for the environment and everyone involved we’re better off to leave this well alone, I see, I do not see a
violation
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BOARD: I’d like to address Mr. Pellino. Mr. Pellino, shy of all of this and all of that, what’s the matter with your well?
PELLINO: It’s defective
BOARD: How’s the water quality?
PELLINO: Bad
TOOP: It’s brown, water has been brown, it’s been brown from day one
PELLINO: (inaudible)
BOARD: Your driller does not typically guarantee water quality
PELLINI: (inaudible) it’s surface water
TOOP: We understand that.
PELLINO: (inaudible)
BOARD: I’d like to make a point to you
TOOP: Stop, stop
BOARD: I’d like to make a point to you about what Mr. Hunt suggested. I understand that also. If the board decided, if
Derry Well decides this well is garbage fill it up with cement. What’s gonna happen to you is you’re gonna hire a well
driller to come in and install 240 feet of casing and drill you, pick a number on 1100 foot well that may not produce
water.
PELLINO: (inaudible)
BOARD: If there is nothing wrong with this well, you may be better off with this than some other alternative.
TOOP: May I, may I say something.
BOARD: I’ll leave that up to the chairman.
TOOP: May I?
SKILLINGS: Let me ask you a question.
TOOP: (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Hold on, let me ask , I want..I want to ask you a question, to Derry Well and to you. We’re spending a lot of
time, other people’s time, your time, everybody’s time. I’ll ask Hugh, and I’ll ask Mr. Pellino.
TOOP: No..(inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Ah ah ah,
TOOP: NO
SKILLINGS: I’m asking Mr. Pellino, and I’m asking Hugh, can you..
PELLINO: I tried to work it out.
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SKILLINGS: Yes but you’re sitting here together, we’ve gotten to this point, can you work this out? If you’re gonna be
hostile, then you’re gonna take what the board says. So, if you’re gonna be hostile about it, you’re gonna take what
the board says. So, can you work it out? Hugh?
MCKISSICK: I can try to.
SKILLINGS: You will try? Mr. Pellino?
PELLINO: What is try? What does it involve?
SKILLINGS: I would ass assume to get you a better…a well, a better well.
BOARD: Better water quality
SKILLINGS: Better water quality
PELLINO:
SKILLINGS: But, you gotta pay him for, you gotta pay him for what he’s done so far don’t forget. But he’s gonna do
more for you
TOOP: (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: The thing is you’re thinking that it’s his fault that you have the water quality that you have. If that was
another well company that had the same identical thing that happened to him, cus let me tell you this is the world that
well companies run into. Yes, another well company would have said to you, Mr. Pellino ah maybe this water isn’t going
to be so good, we otta just cement it off and drill drill deeper. Ok. Do you hear me? So then he would have cemented it
off, and drill deeper. And you would have paid to cement it off and drilled deeper. Ok?
PELLINO: The well next door has a well 427 feet
SKILLINGS: We are talking about your well, we are talking about what you would do. So if I can’t solve between the twoof you, guess what? What the board decides here, is what you’re gonna both live with.
PELLINO: He took me to court, he withheld information from me lied to me. So how do we solve anything?
BOARD: I’d like to revise my motion.
SKILLINGS: Yes Steve.
BOARD: I’d like to revise my motion that we find that the well does not meet the requirement of the rules the amount o
casing into bedrock, however that is probably not impacting the water quality. Iron and manganese are very very
common in New Hampshire wells, it’s a business I’ve been in for over 25 years and that the water quality is not the
result of the construction of this well. I’d like to document that the well doesn’t have sufficient casings, but I don’t
believe it impacts on the water quality, I don’t recommend that we abandon this well, that this well merely needs to be
shocked and iron and manganese need to be treated like 75 % of the wells in New Hampshire have to be. And
(inaudible) but I think we need to document that the casing doesn’t meet the rules but I don’t think we recommend but
do not recommend the well be abandoned.
SKILLINGS: Would would you agree that there was excess casing in the ground for the normal consideration of ground
water getting into the casing?
BOARD: Yes
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SKILLINGS: So, that coulda been a well, just for discussion, that coulda been a well that was 210 feet deep in sand and
gravel. Correct?
BOARD: Yep, yep. Same circumstances. So I do no, I do no
SKILLINGS: I do know the customer didn’t buy a sand and gravel well for 210 feet, I realize that. But, we know that the
area has wells, overburden wells.
BOARD: To me the water quality here is really is not the issue, cuz this is typical New Hampshire water. The iron andmanganese are typical New Hampshire water.
SKILLINGS: I do agree, so let’s go back to the motion
BOARD: So, my motion is that that um we acknowledge that there is not sufficient casing, uh they don’t meet the 10
foot requirement of casing into bedrock however, we do not recommend the well be abandoned, that the water quality
issues be addressed thru shocking and or treatment, as is consistent with all bedrock wells in New Hampshire.
SKILLINGS: We’re about to take a second here
PELLINO:
SKILLINGS: Ho Listen, we are about to have a second on a motion, I’m giving you one more chance between the two of
you
PELLINO: My well risk will always be at risk
SKILLINGS: Your not…I’m giving you a chance. Fine. Do I have a second on a motion?
BOARD: Second, second
SKILLINGS: All in favor?
BOARD: I
SKILLINGS: How many I’s do I have here? I have 4, I have 5. Let the record be shown that the I’s have it and the finding is
that ah that the well driller ah is not at fault, am I correct?
BOARD: In terms of the water quality.
SKILLINGS: Ah
BOARD: And if I could I would like to have an opportunity to address (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Well, wait a minute, when you said in terms of water quality..(inaudible)
BOARD: They are still at fault in terms of not having 10 feet of casing into bedrock. I think that needs to go on the record
But I don’t consider them to be responsible for this water quality.
SKILLINGS: What about
BOARD: Maybe you didn’t understand the motion
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SKILLINGS: Yeah, what about cus that the issue here is location and ah ah casings amount of casing. We determined the
casings is in the ground but the amount into bedrock because of what they wrote there on well, originally, that’s the two
things we have at issue here….
BOARD: Right, into bedrock, on the report (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: ….you’re talking about water quality
BOARD: Yeah yeah, well I’m not, my motion does not link that 6 feet of casing to the water quality. I’m merelyacknowledging the fact that there’s only 6 feet of casing into bedrock.
SKILLINGS: Ok
BOARD: I’m not associating that with having any consequence
SKILLINGS: OK, so you’re, can we make sure that (inaudible) that I says that we keep that the motion was that it’s the
water quality that we’re talking about, and that the water quality is not deterred because of the casing, am I correct?
BOARD: Yeah
SKILLINGS: but at issue here, is the casing into competent bedrock into rock….
BOARD: Competent bedrock
SKILLINGS: ..in the well location So ah how, if, what is the finding on the board with the casing into bedrock?
BOARD: That it doesn’t meet the 10 foot requirement.
SKILLINGS: Ok and
SCHOFIELD: That would be, for the record WE 602.06, depth to
SKILLINGS: And what is the finding of the well location?
SCHOFIELD: That is WE 602.05 D
SKILLINGS: Which identifies the well location to be?
SCHOFIELD: Non-conforming.
SCHOFIELD: Non-conforming WE 602.05 D requires 75 foot protective well radius from property line
SKILLINGS: And in that, the responsible party for that? To make sure the well location meets the setback
requirements?
SCHOFIELD: THE WELL DRILLER
BOARD: So the question is even if it’s non-conforming and and (inaudible) you’re looking at the 40 foot of casing
minimum, that’s considering what the surficial geology is and what’s it like, and we’re talking about a well that’s 232
feet of casing, 230 (inaudible) that’s been grouted, and we’re not sure, one report says 12 one report says 6, one
supposedly more official than the other that says a licensed driller signed it. It get’s back to time to deal with reality
here. We got a well that’s non-conforming, I think we all agree to that, we got two numbers for casing candidly I’m not
sure what’s right or, but we know who the licensed driller is. Fact is we still got 230 feet of casing we got a grouted
borehole, we got a grouted…what are we talking about here?
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BOARD: Leave it it. Shock the well (inaudible) call it a day.
BOARD: The confusement is a concern. I can see why Mr. Pellino is upset. Y’know looking at 1 and a half parts of iron,
one and a half parts manganese, that’s I said earlier, that’s one of New Hampshire’s best kept secret. You know, iron and
manganese, it is what it is. This well could be 25 feet it could be conforming, if you’re (inaudible) that 20 gallon minimum
fracture. You’re gonna have the same water quality and same water quality so (inaudible)
SKILLINGS: Ok, so we need to have a motion on the floor do we find the well driller to be in violation or I need some
motion on the floor from somebody that rather the
BOARD: Are we’re gonna disregard Steve’s motion?
SKILLINGS: Well, his motion is about the water quality.
BOARD: Oh, no my motion was that indeed the well driller did violate the rules by not filing a non-conforming well
location report
SKILLINGS: Ok
BOARD: and by not putting the minimum 10 of casing into bedrock.
BOARD: (inaudible)
BOARD: Ok, so I take that back
BOARD: But the problem is…
BOARD: So, my motion was that there is not 10 feet of casing into bedrock. My motion did not say anything about what
the consequence of that violation should be, I’m merely trying to document on record that the violation occurred. So if
you want to make a motion about suggesting a consequence I’m happy to do that, with a separate motion.
BOARD: You’re the one who voted on that.
BOARD: Right, so we agreed that the violation had occurred. Now we have to decide are we going to what’s going to be
the consequence of that violation.
BOARD: Mr. Chairman, does the original motion does that address water quality as a (inaudible)
BOARD: I’m confused now
BOARD: My motion said that..that in my opi…my motion was that violation of not having (inaudible) to bedrock, does
not impact the water quality
BOARD: I would like to remove my Yay from the record, for whatever that’s worth
BOARD: I take my hat off to Steve (inaudible) confusion. I am not going to discredit the gentleman who filled out the 1st
report. I won’t call it illegal (inaudible) because he just filled it out. The man who drilled the well, does not hold the
license. It doesn’t matter.
BOARD: Yes it does.
BOARD: The first report?
BOARD: Oh
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BOARD: Inaudible
BOARD: I understand, but the driller actually indicated he was into bedrock 12 feet. So the (inaudible) report was
written by somebody else.
BOARD: It’s the other way around by the licensee, it’s the other way around
BOARD: Mumbling, (whispering) this is the accepted one. And then there’s that one. There’s 3 reports, there’s one that
Derry Well (inaudible) which indicates 265 (inaudible). This one was signed by someone who’s not a licensed driller.
BOARD: He has the rig machine
BOARD: But that well driller report doesn’t count (inaudible) it wasn’t properly completed?
SKILLINGS: No no no no hold on, no siding. Hugh ran the machine, he’s the licensed driller.
BOARD: Then did Hugh write down he hit bedrock at 220?
BOARD: No. 225
BOARD: This is the report filed by Mr. McKissick. This is the official report that was submitted to the board
SKILLINGS: That is what Steve is talking about his own confession documented he’s only 6 feet into rock. That’s that’s
what we’re going on.
BOARD: So I could make a motion as he knew what was a result of that finding. So I would make a motion that the
violation of not having 10 feet of casing into the bedrock does not impact this water quality and as a result the well
should remain and the issues of water quality would be addressed by the well driller to eliminate the bacteria problem,
because I believe under the rules they are required to provide a well free of bacteria, is that correct? So, there’s no issue
of water quality. So it is my motion that that violation of not having 10 feet of casing into bedrock does not impact this
water quality, and like any other bedrock well in New Hampshire there’s responsibility of the owner to provide the
water quality they desire. Cause water quality is not regulated by rules.
SKILLINGS: You got you go you gotta clean that up.
BOARD: This violation does not impact water quality. Period. No consequence to the driller.
SKILLINGS: Ok ok does not that’s good. The short of casing does not impact…
BOARD: Water quality.
SKILLINGS:…water quality. Can I have a vote on that? Can I have a second on that? Sorry
BOARD: I will second that.
SKILLINGS: All in favor
BOARD: I
SKILLINGS: Ok.
BOARD: All opposed
BOARD: Opposed
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SKILLINGS: Ok, the other issue here is well location, ok. How does the board find on well location?
BOARD: It meets the non-conforming rules, right? This well? Hmm? So I don’t understand why location is an issue.
SKILLINGS: I’m I’m… ya..anybody?
BOARD: Do we have a non-conforming form?
TOOP: No
PELLINO: No, NO NO
MACHAIN: He wouldn’t sign it, that’s why.
TOOP: You never met him, so how could he sign it?
MACHAIN: He got the bill, he said he found it on the floor, I left the form, we put that on the
PELLLINO: INAUDIBLE
MACHAIN: (inaudible) sign these things all the time, he just doesn’t want to pay for the casings, we know that all the
time. (Inaudible) all the time, I’ve been sitting here listening to this
TOOP: The last time
SKILLINGS: Wait, wait
TOOP: The last time we were here, he said he left it in the mailbox, now he’s saying he left it in the house.
MACHAIN: We left it right on the tank. (inaudible)
BOARD: Whispering.
SKILLINGS: Do they have it? Does anyone have one?
MACHAIN: Theyre not gonna sign it Roger, c’mon.
SKILLINGS: That’s right, they’re not going to sign it. That’s for me. OK. So I need a vote on the well location
BOARD: What about it
BOARD: I want to know if it..if any of the board members here have a problem with the well location?
BOARD: I would just say (inaudible) Mr. Schofield had his feet on the ground, on the lot his eyes as our..ah his eyes as
ours, Rick indicated to us that the well is in a..decent lo..ah good location, or the best location?
SCHOFIELD: I believe the well is in the best location given the dimensions of the lot, without having to build a road
further back and cut trees. I think the septic system designer probably would have put that well in that location on
the plans.
SKILLINGS: So, just for the board here, to help us decide here, the location sounds like that it’s by (inaudible) is in a good
location. It does meet the location further back from where this location further back out was, this is actually better
when it comes to it’s own septic system, correct?
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SCHOFIELD: It meets all the setbacks for the septic system ahm in order to put a well, to meet all of the setback
requirements it would have been fairly substantial road to get the rig back there
SKILLINGS: And and it has excess than this 40 feet of casing we normally require in non-conforming as well, correct?
BOARD: INAUDIBLE
SKILLINGS: And the well was grouted. Ok, so I need something from the board to close this. Yay or nay.
BOARD: The way I see it Mr. Chairman, it’s a non-conforming well, it does not have the non-conforming paperwork
signed, I don’t think making this, either signing the paperwork or moving the location would have changed the well I
don’t think the well was in danger because the it’s non-conforming, the only drawback I see is when Mr. Pellino goes to
sell the house, somebody’s gonna look and go hey that well is in an illegal location. If the board decides that nothing
should be done, I think at the very least we should honor Mr. Pellino with a piece of paper saying the Water Well Board
investigated this, the well has been videotaped, the water well board sees no potential consequences, damage, harm by
the well being located in a non-conforming location.
BOARD: Well we have to close this
PELLINO: Rules are rules you know.
BOARD: Ok, we’re gonna have to close this out in writing anyway. But I mean, when I think about this, you think about
first of all probably when the septic system was designed, they probably used a (inaudible) cuz it’s done forever and eve
and ever. (inaudible) I suspect seeing the pictures, looking at the tree that’s probably what happened. Unfortunately, we
don’t know that. But what I think about pragmatically is..is what was the intent of the requirements in a non-conforming
well? Is to make sure we are in bedrock, and 6-7 feet, whatever it is, you grout it, and when Matt was around we were
always thinking about when you get into shallower bedrock situations, that was a real big concern, we’re talking about
probably more than 100 feet of overburden, probably at 150 feet. Y’know, we got a vein, there’s no salt, iron and
manganese, that’s no surprise to me, there’s no salt, so we’re not seeing a lot of ground water that’s tainted to begin
with. So in my mind I think about what’s the reality of the risks associated to the well, and I think a lot of these wells are
that deep and not even grouted, and still have the same problems. So in my mind, I think we acknowledge that it’s a
non-conforming well location but as a result of looking at the video and looking at the water test results, in addition to
grouting, that the well remain intact.
SKILLINGS: Ah Rick?
SCHOFIELD: I agree with, I agree with everything Rene just said. I just want to make a point ah and on behalf of Mr.
Pellino and Audra Toop, that the drilling contractor is required by rule to notify them before the well is drilled that the
well is in a non-conforming location, and they are required to have them sign that form so that they acknowledge that
the well is in a non-conforming location. That was never done. And I can understand why Mr. Pellino and Audra Toop are
very concerned about that, and as they should be, and I think maybe we should document that fact here, that thatwasn’t done.
BOARD: But that’s a second violation
SKILLINGS: Well, ok. Thank you Rick. Ah ah just just again for the board, we have approved wells that are within the 75
feet from a road many many many times, that is not an uncommon practice
BOARD: That’s a separate issue
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SKILLINGS: Well that’s that’s we’re talking about setback requirements that’s really what we’re talking about is the 75
feet from the front lot line, right?
BOARD: Correct, from the road.
SKILLINGS: He meets the setback from the side lot line and the back lot line.
BOARD: No I understand. I think the concern is he took it into bedrock, he didn’t follow the rules there. If he stopped
above bedrock, you already had 40 feet of casing in a (inaudible) overburden well and we wouldn’t be having thisconversation. He didn’t take it 10 feet in and that’s the violation. And not having it signed ahead of time, that’s another
violation. Setback in a non-conforming well is and everyday event in New Hampshire, we see everyday, I don’t think
that’s an issue at all. I mean he, the 50 feet we’d all be ok with, (inaudible) maybe 10 feet into rock, if he took it into
rock. So I think we need to be concerned with the 7 feet vs. 6. Obviously, we’re not going to rip the well apart, because
it’s a good producing well, it has a small bacteria count in it, which is typical of any well in New Hampshire. It doesn’t
need to change. I think it needs to go on Derry Well’s record that they need a brush up on the rules, if they’re going to
do this in the future, (inaudible). So, it can’t change without costing everybody a small fortune, including the
homeowner. They can replace that well, but it’s going to cost them another small fortune. And it will be no better, he
probably won’t be getting any kind of water production he’d be getting now. With a small treatment system, you’re
going to have clean water.
PELLINO: Why should I do it? Why should I pay (inaudible)
BOARD: Everyone in New Hampshire does it.
TOOP: (Inaudible) No, no no.
BOARD: I’ve been doing it for 25 years. Yeah.
SKILLINGS: We’re going to take a vote (inaudible) or not?
BOARD: I approve it as it is. I think Derry Well, there needs to be some sort letter or something or violation on theirrecord for installing it short of 10 feet of casing, and not having a signed (inaudible). That’s a direct violation, and if that
was taking care of anytime if it was drilled 10 feet in, we wouldn’t even be this far in the conversation. The bacteria
count would be enough. There’d be no problem with this well at all.
BOARD: And the late reporting and the well completion report itself is another issue. I mean, the third item, there’s
nothing on the non-conforming.
BOARD: I mean one report was signed by the well driller an
BOARD: So just, everybody I mean we gotta hear to ourselves here, we hear ourselves we’re talking about wells, he
violated this, he violated that, violated this yet we’re gonna say OK
BOARD: No one said ok, I think it goes on their record, I mean if they have another incident like this than we address it
with their license, or a fine whatever the case may be (Dave Hunt snickering in the background)
SKILLINGS: So we’re not make Derry Well, they’re not, we’re not gonna say that Derry Well is in violation
BOARD: No, we are going to say they’re in violation….
DAVE HUNT: No no no no
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BOARD: They are in violation, but replacing the well, I don’t think it needs to happen.
BOARD: Inaudible.
BOARD: No, it’s a whole different situation
BOARD: All right, we’ve acknowledged the casing issue, we’ve acknowledged the non-location form, fact of the matter is at the end
of the day It’s a rule, the board can make a decision based on rules. That’s what we’re doing, it’s not a statute. This is a rule, the
rules redevelop. We sit here, and hopefully, academically get all sides of the coin, and that’s why we sit here, to make a decision. At
the end of the day, do we believe that they are quality and quantity outside the realm of iron and manganese, which is no surprise
(inaudible) So that’s the deal here, we’re dealing with rules in a violation, not a statute. That gives the decision making at this board
level. So we figure out, we acknowledge what went on, and if we feel comfortable that the end product is what you get, what you
see is what you get, and there’s no public health risk, and and my own candid feeling is if a fracture at 232 feet if we are starting to
get contamination we better (inaudible)
BOARD: For all of our rules
BOARD: So, I mean, that’s my take on it. So we acknowledge it, it’s there, we know it’s in the rules we’ve identified 3 violations
(inaudible) and that’s what we’re saying, plain and simple. And the conclusion is, the well goes and get on with it or we look at some
other thing. We cannot continue to bat this around, it’s a rule, we have…
SKILLINGS: Can I get a motion, sorry?
BOARD: Inaudible
SCHOFIELD: Since we’re identifying all violations, I also have to speak up, there is also one other violation that I noted in my report,
which is that the ground wire was not bonded to the casing that’s required by WE 702 04 J. Although, I will say there was an attempt
to be done to make that bond, because if you look at that picture you can see that the ground wire, the insulation has been stripped
off the ground wire, I can pass that around. Ok so what they did was they draped that ground wire over the top of the well casing,
and put the cover over it to create a bond, so there was an attempt made to bond that ground wire to the casing, but it wasn’t in my
opinion does not meet the board’s requirements that would be to drill a hole thru the casing, and fasten it to the casing with a bolt
or to use the two well caps that the board has approved. Which is the turtlecap and then there’s the (inaudible) industries cap that
has a grounding (inaudible) on it for that purpose. Those are the only way of doing that that has been accepted by the board. But, ifyou’re going to identify violations, I believe this is one of them. Although attempt was made to comply with the rules, but I believe it
falls short.
SKILLINGS: Can I get a vote of whether we accept this well in place or we not accept the well.
BOARD: I would suggest, my motion would be we accept this well but we agree on a probation of some type for Derry Well for
violations that occurred on this well that don’t impact water quality, but nevertheless are violations
SKILLINGS: OK, discussion
BOARD: Is that the only repercussion that we can impose for violation of our rules, for reporting and so on? I mean, it seems to me..
BOARD: Late reports are a fine
BOARD: Are these fineable?
BOARD: Beside a censure or probationary period, can we enforce for violation of these we’ve identified 4 separate violations. We
may accept the well because I think an attempt at the rules are met here, but it doesn’t excuse them for violating our rules, so it’s
kinda two separate things, and I’d like to be clear about what our potential actions are in the latter case. If we do accept this well as
it is as a functional well, at which they had no fault for the quality issues, and I agree with that. But as far as what we can impose for
specific violations of our rules, besides the probationary..
SKILLINGS: Rick, can’t DES um DES (inaudible)
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SCHOFIELD: DES has the authority over ah enforcement actions such as administrative fines, administrative order, to
correct violations
SKILLINGS: So we can direct DES
SCHOFIELD: No, you can not direct DES.
BOARD: you can refer
BOARD: Recommend.
BOARD: Ok, I would like (inaudible) as part of the motion.
BOARD: So my motion is we accept the well as drilled in spite of the 4 violations, and we recommend to DES to consider appropriate
fines regarding those violations or consider appropriate consequences regarding those 4 violations.
SKILLINGS: All in favor
BOARD: I
SKILLINGS: All opposed
BOARD: I
SKILLINGS: Ok, we’re gonna take a break please 10 minutes. 5 that enough
TOOP: thank you for your time
BOARD Phew
BOARD: I pity anybody who has to deal with her
BOARD: YUK YUK YUK
I, Audra Eileen Toop, certify under penalty of perjury that the above transcription before the NH Water Well Board,which took place on October 24, 2013 is true and correct, to the best of my knowledge.
________________ ______________Signature Dated
State of New Hampshire
County of Carroll
Signed or attested before me on ______________________ by Audra E. Toop.
_______________________ NOTARY PUBLIC