New Teamwork Values

8/3/2019 New Teamwork Values

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Club 24 Thread: New Teamwork Valueshttp://www.xperteleven.com/viewLeagueMessageN.aspx?threadID=6951918&read=1&Lnr=0&dh=4

Basilbrush303 [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Ligaassistent][Basilbrush303]

Blev medlem:2006-02-17

Ämne: New Teamwork ValuesSkrivet: 2011-06-10 07:47:26Citera

Svara

I remember they tried to bring this in a few years ago and seeing the player compatibility on each players page for a shirtwhile. Personally I like this change as it will actually add complexity to the game and change the transfer market for ever as not everybody will want the same player.

I'm just off to shoot every diva I have!

We are all Champions.

We are all Walter Smith.

Flytta till överst på sidanDuffster [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Användaren är ligaboss för ligan] [Är med i Hall Of Fame!][Duffster]Blev medlem:2006-09-11

Svar till: Basilbrush303Skrivet: 2011-06-10 07:59:49Citera

Svara

It does look more complex & a massive change to the game, I'm not sure if I can be bothered to put the time into all myteams to get them on decent enough TW without losing too much peformance.... I had a couple of games today & settactics last night, but it would seem x player will work worst with y player within that line-up, cba changing it.

It should be a good change overall for the game though.

The usefulness of a cup is its emptiness.http://www.xperteleven.com/viewGlobalMessageN.aspx?threadID=3841256&forumid=26&read=1

Flytta till överst på sidanGRASSBANDITS [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][GRASSBANDITS]Blev medlem:2007-11-15

Svar till: Duffster Skrivet: 2011-06-10 08:04:37Citera



Svara

I have two forwards who have played 30 odd times together in my Xpert team where there's 4 forwards.

Neither are diva's and player a plays best with player b and player b plays best with player a - the last time they playedtogether teamwork was 11.

Agree it's probably good for the game for teamwork to have greater importance but I hope it's minimal so doesn't becomeas important or more important than tactics, form and team strength.

Every time I think we have hit the bottom, the ground opens up again and we fall a bit more.


Svar till: GRASSBANDITS

Skrivet: 2011-06-10 08:33:08Uppdaterat: 2011-06-10 08:38:28Citera

Svara

In my Portugal team every defender works worst with the one 18/4 DEF Lily Iceman.(Defence TW seems like a bug already)

Just spent 22m on a 20/9 Diva.. and only a 16/4 works with him.

In TCC my 2 main FWDs - Connery works best with Wallace - Wallace works worst with Connery.. yeah ok.


Flytta till överst på sidanDfault [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Ligaassistent][Dfault]Blev medlem:2009-05-26

Svar till: Duffster Skrivet: 2011-06-10 09:00:39Uppdaterat: 2011-06-10 09:05:06Citera

Svara

I think you are reading to much into this. Even though they are working worst with each other it is still possible they willgain a 20 in teamwork value. I think it is there to help us understand who might be the reason for poor teamwork value.But as usual you only need to play them more together and it will be better. But now you might know who you should playhim with (works best with) to make him adept to the other players faster. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Edit: I got one Diva who does not even have a works worst with......

http://imm.io/6jk7



http://www.xperteleven.com/viewGlobalMessageN.aspx?threadID=3841256&forumid=26&read=1

Flytta till överst på sidanSinik [Kontakta författare inom ligan]

[Användaren är VIP-medlem][Sinik]Blev medlem:2008-09-04

Svar till: DfaultSkrivet: 2011-06-10 09:34:12Citera

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I didn't pay attention to my matches, are the teamwork values retroactively adjusted?

The next sentence is false. The previous sentence is true.

Flytta till överst på sidanMoxter [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem]Blev medlem:2007-11-07

Svar till: SinikSkrivet: 2011-06-10 10:36:26Citera

Svara

The background essay is pretty badly written (or translated), as per usual. Phrases like "So if you have a team where theplayers are completely compatible with each other then they will still be very compatible with each other all though theywill be stretched out on the scale a little bit" are just meaningless.

Still, anything to shake the game up a bit. How much of a difference will it make? I suppose the point is that there willALWAYS be a best-and-worst, and time will tell how much the teamwork value graphs are affected by team selections -and indeed how much of an effect on results all this will have.

I didn't understand a word of the essay, but all good in my book...

Evaluations becomnig cheaper for cheap players is good as well, although I'm glad they didn't change it too much - takinga risk on that £1m "bargain" has always been fun.

Flytta till överst på sidanDochawkes [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem]

[Dochawkes]Blev medlem:2006-09-15

Svar till: Moxter Skrivet: 2011-06-10 10:59:02Citera

Svara

This may take a little getting used to and putting into perspective....



I.E... in my CBR team here I have 3 forwards

Rhys Livett....Works best with Cristóvão GonçalvesWorks worst with Murdo Nicholl

Cristóvão Gonçalves...Works best with Murdo Nicholl

Works worst with Rhys Livett

Murdo Nicholl....Works best with Cristóvão GonçalvesWorks worst with Rhys Livett

looking at those 3 forwards..I can play nicholl & Goncalves as a pair up front or Livett up front on his own (as no one likes playing with him....)

Sjokvist in my KnightHawks team is my best defender (29), and wants to retire at the club.... and he plays worst witheverybody else just about... talk about getting shafted by the man...lol

"If at first you dont succeed.... Do a flugelfish"


Svar till: DochawkesSkrivet: 2011-06-10 11:04:19Citera

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In one of my teams, every player plays worst with one midfielder - but he's only 19. Got me wondering, does it reallymatter? By the time he's first choice and playing in matches that actually matter, those other players might have retired or moved on. It's when your star three defenders don't play with each other (as in my Power League side) that things lookiffy.

Flytta till överst på sidanPapaBear [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][PapaBear]Blev medlem:2008-11-16


Svara

We all knew that players bought on the TM were highly likely to come in with back teamwork values, we can now just seeit a little more and can see something on it when we evaluate (haven't done one yet to know what it says) but it's likely tobe poor as before (60% chance).

The only change as I see it is the importance of TW values on player performances, this is the main thing to change in myeyes.

An all youth team started from a brand new team now really sucks as average age now kills player performances and thecrap teamwork values from overhauling the squad in the TM should make most of your 18/4's play to X's now rather than1 or 2 skill bars.



He shags who he wants,He shags who he wants,That boy Giggsy,He shags who he wants.


Svar till: PapaBear Skrivet: 2011-06-10 11:46:23Citera

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So if A gets on badly with B, whose performance gets adversely affected? A, B or both?

Flytta till överst på sidanRichardfenn [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Richardfenn]Blev medlem:2006-03-29


Svara

Technically, both. But it depends on the values you see on the match report. Look at those first before analysing theplayers' relationships. If the match report says teamwork is 20, then the comparison is effectively saying "despite the factall your forwards are best mates, this one is slightly less of a best mate".

If all else fails, just sod it and go to the pub.

Flytta till överst på sidanOsamabenjamin [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Osamabenjamin]Blev medlem:2007-03-14

Svar till: Moxter

Skrivet: 2011-06-10 11:59:34Citera

Svara

I'm assuming it's whoever's furthest from the team's teamwork value that will play worst.

I'm also assuming that the team's teamwork value is just an average of individual players' teamwork values, it liessomewhere on the sliding scale between 1-1000, and will also change over time based on all the individual teamworkvalues of players.



Always to the left...

Flytta till överst på sidanRichardfenn [Kontakta författare inom ligan]

[Användaren är VIP-medlem][Richardfenn]Blev medlem:2006-03-29

Svar till: OsamabenjaminSkrivet: 2011-06-10 12:18:52Citera

Svara

Ursprungligen postat av: OsamabenjaminI'm assuming it's whoever's furthest from the team's teamwork value that will play worst.

I think the "teamwork value" on the match report affects all players equally. One black sheep can throw an entire team

part out of kilter, for example.

Ursprungligen postat av: OsamabenjaminI'm also assuming that the team's teamwork value is just an average of individual players' teamwork values, it liessomewhere on the sliding scale between 1-1000, and will also change over time based on all the individual teamworkvalues of players.

I'd agree with that. A "mid point" of the selected players' values is calculated at a match, and the teamwork value shownon the report reflects how close all the players are to that mid point. I've theorised for a long time about using a blacksheep in a large team part e.g. 5 defs or 5 mids, as they have less influence on the calculated average.


Flytta till överst på sidanBasilbrush303 [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Ligaassistent][Basilbrush303]Blev medlem:2006-02-17

Svar till: RichardfennSkrivet: 2011-06-10 13:28:47Citera

Svara

Personally I feel that long term this will have huge impact on the transfer market and syphoning money from the game.

Players may receive less bids as managers may feel they are uncompatible with their team or will take too long integrate.Not knowng this until you evaluate and increasing the amount of evaluations even with a sliding price scale should syphonoff a huge amount of cash.





Flytta till överst på sidanRichardfenn [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Richardfenn]Blev medlem:2006-03-29

Svar till: Basilbrush303

Skrivet: 2011-06-10 13:35:34Citera

Svara

Maybe. Maybe there will be a bigger emphasis on retaining juniors as they will get on better straight away.

Focus on coaching and all that.


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Michelep [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Michelep]Blev medlem:2009-01-08


Svara

There was a part in Iwe's post about it not having more than 25% impact - which is a huge amount and worrying.

Having said that I am gonna basically ignore it and enjoy the cheap evals. Most things in this game really have very subtleeffects and don't come near to the quality of the players so I'm not going to buy lesser players cos of this change.

Flytta till överst på sidanBasilbrush303 [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Ligaassistent][Basilbrush303]Blev medlem:2006-02-17

Svar till: DochawkesSkrivet: 2011-06-10 14:16:05Citera

Svara

Ursprungligen postat av: DochawkesThis may take a little getting used to and putting into perspective....I.E... in my CBR team here I have 3 forwards

Rhys Livett....Works best with Cristóvão GonçalvesWorks worst with Murdo Nicholl

Cristóvão Gonçalves...Works best with Murdo NichollWorks worst with Rhys Livett



Murdo Nicholl....Works best with Cristóvão GonçalvesWorks worst with Rhys Livett

looking at those 3 forwards..I can play nicholl & Goncalves as a pair up front or Livett up front on his own (as no one likes playing with him....)

Sjokvist in my KnightHawks team is my best defender (29), and wants to retire at the club.... and he plays worst witheverybody else just about... talk about getting shafted by the man...lol

I am not sure I would necessarily be so worried.

If we take an example of 3 forwards, Tom, Dick and Harry and also a circle with 1000 points on it with 1000 being rightbeside 1 on the circle.

Tom is on point 250, Harry is on point 400 and Dick is on point 600.

Therefore although Dick works best with Harry, Harry works best with Tom and worst with Dick as he nearer Tom than heis with Dick.

I am not going to worry about this too much as long as the teamwork bars are ok, especially when there is only 2

(forwards) or 3 (defenders) players on the pitch. Its the teamwork bars that will matter.

Something to note is that there are now 2 articles about this in the daily, with a second clarification article. What isimportant is that We have today increased the scale for the teamwork values from being on a circular scale of 100 stepsto now be on a circular scale with 1000 steps. has now been removed and replaced with We have today increased thescale for the teamwork values allowing it to be more differences between the players and the teams.



Flytta till överst på sidanQuercus [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Quercus]Blev medlem:2008-09-14

Svar till: MichelepSkrivet: 2011-06-10 14:20:57Uppdaterat: 2011-06-10 14:22:06Citera

Svara

Ursprungligen postat av: MichelepThere was a part in Iwe's post about it not having more than 25% impact - which is a huge amount and worrying.

25% on performance is still minor. It is more important than offensive SQ's - yeah!, but still not a huge deal when offsetwith win bonuses, good form and solid tactics.

I like it alot, and even the first explanation (the best explanation for information) made perfect sense.

To use the circular clock analogy, if we used to have only 12 hour long graduations for players to reside, now we have 60minute long graduations. And it was promised that your compatible players would be within the same 15 minutes of the 60minute clock.

One thing for certain, not being compatible is now a much larger deal because your players will take forever to make for example a 400 point journey from one side of the clock to the other. At 3 points or so per game, you are looking at 133



games. We are talking about legend status before you are fully synched with the club.

Fenn's point about synching players has become even more important. You need to avoid 352 with a new defender, or their third of the calculation will greatly affect the average and skew the whole defense.

By the same token, playing 523 with a new midfielder will be problematic.

As a final point, this change continues to hurt forwards relative to all other positions. Now they not only have problems

holding form, getting development and the like, but also they will be the hardest position to get synched because of limitedplaytime and a lack of forward heavy formations. I can't see myself playing 424 for 3-4 games a season for a youngstrikers teen years just to get him synched with the team.

Most likely, I will not buy him in the first place, or simply decide to let him drag the whole lot around with him.

Also, why no boost for the Diva SQ? It just got a whole lot less appetizing.

Have a nice day.

Flytta till överst på sidanTyr775 [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem]

[Tyr775]Blev medlem:2005-06-23


Svara

The thing with this is that its possible to get everyone to 20 (or pretty close) over time, its just that starting points andability to get them to gel quickly will be harder to do now. If its a tight game it appears this will have more affect. Playingthe new 16/4 forward with your older most skillful forward wont give you a good result although it will give him good dv, itsall about balance and it just got more difficult.

That's what I'm talking about!

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1 2 3FörfattareMeddelandeBasilbrush303 [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Ligaassistent][Basilbrush303]Blev medlem:2006-02-17

Svar till: Tyr775Skrivet: 2011-06-10 14:28:31Citera

Svara

This is now harder as the have increased the distance on the circle by *10 but the distance you travel along it each gameto syncing your teamwork values has not been increased by the same amount. So it will now take longer. But its alsodependent on how near your are as the closer you are the less you travel. Even at 3 'steps' its not *10!



Flytta till överst på sidanMiziler [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Miziler]Blev medlem:2008-05-14




Skrivet: 2011-06-10 14:38:14Citera

Svara

http://imm.io/6jMI

Compatibility means he can work with anyone in the team and didnt have worst teamate to play maybe..

"It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're not confident in what you're doing and not believing that i t's going to turn for you then you're not going to play well"


Svar till: Miziler Skrivet: 2011-06-10 14:42:26Citera

Svara

It also partly solves a long-term gripe of a lot of people, that recommended players are useless; they're slightly moreworthwhile now.

Flytta till överst på sidanVillabolger [Kontakta författare inom ligan]Blev medlem:2006-01-15

Svar till: QuercusSkrivet: 2011-06-10 14:45:11Uppdaterat: 2011-06-10 14:46:34Citera

Svara

Ursprungligen postat av: Quercus

One thing for certain, not being compatible is now a much larger deal because your players will take forever to make for example a 400 point journey from one side of the clock to the other. At 3 points or so per game, you are looking at 133games. We are talking about legend status before you are fully synched with the club.

Without meaning to get too nerdy i think you are overestimating the distances needed to travel.

1000 points on a circle would represent the area of the circle. (Pi*r2)Therefore the radius of that same circle would be the square root of 1000/3.14 = 18.Therefore diameter would equal 18*2 = 36. And that would be the maximum distance any single player could possiblyneed to travel. Which could theoretically be done in 12 games (36/3).

Of course they won't move 3 steps every game. And some games may move them away from the fulcrum if they play withplayers who are out of sync but you get my point i hope.

Flytta till överst på sidanRichardfenn [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem]



[Richardfenn]Blev medlem:2006-03-29

Svar till: Villabolger Skrivet: 2011-06-10 15:00:15Citera

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I'm pretty certain 1000 points would represent its circumference, not its area.

The most distance a player would need to travel in theory is 500.

It's worth bearing in mind that a player 400 points away should skew the mid point enough that the other players actuallymove in his direction as well as him moving in theirs.



Basilbrush303 [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Ligaassistent][Basilbrush303]Blev medlem:2006-02-17

Svar till: Villabolger Skrivet: 2011-06-10 15:02:19Uppdaterat: 2011-06-10 15:08:21Citera

Svara

But

1. They travel around the circumference of the circle.

2. All your players start in a single quarter any new player (though not youth talents) but a new player could startanywhere though we now get a rough guide.





Svara

What makes you think all players are located on the circumference? (Not disputing it, just querying it)




Richardfenn [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Richardfenn]Blev medlem:2006-03-29

Svar till: Villabolger Skrivet: 2011-06-10 15:16:47

Citera

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Because to be located in the area you need two dimensions, x and y.



Svar till: RichardfennSkrivet: 2011-06-10 15:23:47Uppdaterat: 2011-06-10 15:24:41Citera

Svara

Yes, and what suggests thats not how its done? Because they say players have a teamwork value? Because i don't thinkthat insinuates a single dimension. Or because we move a max of "3 points"? Surely the players could move a total of 3points either on the y or on the x or via a combination of the 2 dimensions (i.e moving 1 point on the x axis and 2 points onthe y).

You may be right but i have always assuemed the players are located at somepoint within the circle rather than only onthe circumference. And i think it makes much more sense that way and is much more robust.

Flytta till överst på sidanMichelep [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Michelep]Blev medlem:2009-01-08


Svara

Ursprungligen postat av: Richardfenn

I'm pretty certain 1000 points would represent its circumference, not its area.

The most distance a player would need to travel in theory is 500.

It's worth bearing in mind that a player 400 points away should skew the mid point enough that the other players actuallymove in his direction as well as him moving in theirs.

Interesting it always used to be 4-5 matches to close a point of teamwork. 20 teamwork "bands" x 5 = 100

Did I imagine it or is it 3 points movement max now? Which effectively means 3x as long to converge.



The last point has always been the case. Its always been really bad (spesh with forwards) if you mix it abnout and one of your pairings is 10-11 TW co s you know they will go back an forth and never converge.

Ursprungligen postat av: Villabolger What makes you think all players are located on the circumference? (Not disputing it, just querying it)

2 reasons. the "rubbish" reason is 1000 isn't a integer square. The more real reason is the same as to why it had to be acircle and not a line before - if you had a x/y they would always converge in/near the middle over time - and by all I meanALL the players in the game would end up converging over time.

Interesting point on forwards by Quercus. Way back I had terrible Fwd TW and that was the reason I actually startedplaying 433 all the time. In defence it's not even nearly as bad cos you have the keeper so worst case is 1/4. Up front itstypically 2 and if they don't work well it can be really painful.

I guess another change that assists conveyor type teams and penalises all-old.

Flytta till överst på sidanBaldur_Adolfson [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem]

[Baldur_Adolfson]Blev medlem:2008-06-02

Svar till: MichelepSkrivet: 2011-06-10 15:54:34Citera

Svara

Ok, so I played a match this afternoon...

http://www.xperteleven.com/gameDetails.aspx?GameID=8957817&dh=4

I Played these two forwards together:

CHRIS SOUTH: Works worst with Ramon GabilondoRAMON GABILONDO: Works worst with Chris South

Forward teamwork values were 17 so I ain't gonna cry too much over that. In some circumstances, even if a player worksworst with another, they might still be quite closely aligned in TW values, its just they would get even higher ratings withothers. I guess it'll just take a bit of time to figure out the best combos in respective team areas.

60% of the time it works every time

Flytta till överst på sidanVillabolger [Kontakta författare inom ligan]Blev medlem:

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Svar till: MichelepSkrivet: 2011-06-10 16:30:41Citera

Svara

Ursprungligen postat av: Michelep

2 reasons. the "rubbish" reason is 1000 isn't a integer square. The more real reason is the same as to why it had to be a



circle and not a line before - if you had a x/y they would always converge in/near the middle over time - and by all I meanALL the players in the game would end up converging over time.

Hmmm. Good point, hadn't considered that. Learn something new every day


Moxter [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem]Blev medlem:2007-11-07


Svara

http://bit.ly/joEouO

Flytta till överst på sidanDuffster [Kontakta författare inom ligan]

[Användaren är VIP-medlem] [Användaren är ligaboss för ligan] [Är med i Hall Of Fame!][Duffster]Blev medlem:2006-09-11

Svar till: DfaultSkrivet: 2011-06-10 18:12:58Citera

Svara

Ursprungligen postat av: DfaultI think you are reading to much into this.

I think you mean.. not reading enough into it, I had 15mins or so to look at it before leaving for work.


Flytta till överst på sidanAbbs [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Abbs]Blev medlem:2008-05-05


Skrivet: 2011-06-10 19:24:00Citera

Svara

Nice of them to give us some notice about this change .Did they bring this in before for about 2 seconds??

Personally makes very little difference to me but nice to have a bit more info on the values.Also like the cheaper evals.Seeing most of the players I buy are youths who I ease in to the team in Cup games cant really see it having a biginpact on me.Looking at who plays best/worse with who looks a bit random,on a par with the assistant Coach marlarky.



Obviously If we had a bit of notice I would of held off buying players who nearly every player hates playing with

Flytta till överst på sidanGRASSBANDITS [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][GRASSBANDITS]Blev medlem:

2007-11-15

Svar till: AbbsSkrivet: 2011-06-10 20:16:43Citera

Svara

It's a fucking fulcrum (see-saw) type thing math nerds. Just hope your new players aren't fatties and never get tippedcloser by the four guys sat at the other end.

Every time I think we have hit the bottom, the ground opens up again and we fall a bit more.

Flytta till överst på sidanAbbs [Kontakta författare inom ligan][Användaren är VIP-medlem][Abbs]Blev medlem:2008-05-05

Svar till: GRASSBANDITSSkrivet: 2011-06-11 18:47:11Citera

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I threw all the "works worse with" lot in together in a Cup game (New signings and youths) and TW values were in singlefigures.Quick question..would it be quicker to sync players with the same line up or better to "ease" in a couple at a time ?.



Svara

Was just thinking about Friendlies, I guess they now have a little more importance if you're building a team - esp in theofficial lges were you have that free slot more often than not, may be wise to use it to bring the TW closer more quickly.





Svar till: Duffster Skrivet: 2011-06-15 15:52:38

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I was thinking the same thing - I wonder if teamwork improvements are less for friendlies, as with match experience.


Svar till: Moxter Skrivet: 2011-06-15 18:57:00

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Svara

TW is the same for competitive + friendlies... so certainly an area to enhance TW for those furthest away on the scale at aquicker rate, esp in the official lges as more likely to have that free slot every week compared to some priv lges.


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