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NB:Episode6–STORIESABOUTUS

Wheredoyoulookforstoriesaboutpeoplelikeyou?Howdoyoumakespacetotellthosestories?Whatdoesthefutureoftransrepresentationlooklike?CaitlinandAmroulookatthethrillingandalltooraretimesthatqueerfolksseethemselvesrepresentedinbooks,onscreen,andbeyond.DragartistandcreatorofTheShayShayShow,ShayShay,remembersthesignificanceofSailorMoon.WriterandhostoftheFoodForThotpodcast,DennisNorrisII,imaginesthefutureofqueerrepresentation.

PresentedbyCaitlinBenedict&AmrouAl-Kadhi

ProducedbyCaitlinBenedict,ArlieAdlingtonandGeorgiaCatt

Transcript:

Amrou-voiceover: Thisepisodecontainsstronglanguage,adultcontentandareallylongreadinglist.

Caitlin: Igotamessagefromyouin,like,July2016going,"I'msendingyouabook.Ithinkyou'ddigit."AndIwaswonderingwhyyouthoughtIwouldlikeit.

Chris: IthoughtthatitwastheclearestandsimplestgrapplingwithidentitythatI'devercomeacross.

Caitlin-voiceover: ThisisNB.

Amrou-voiceover: Non-binary

Caitlin-voiceover: Dismantlingthegenderbinary.

Amrou-voiceover: Onebigquestionatatime.

Caitlin-voiceover: I'mCaitlinandI'mjustfiguringoutmygenderidentity.

Amrou-voiceover: I'mAmrouandI'vebeenoutforawhile,

Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouisgoingtosharewhatthey'velearned.

Amrou-voiceover: Andhopefullylearnsomenewthingstoo.

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Caitlin-voiceover: Okay,let'sgo.

Amrou-voiceover: Thisispartsix.

Caitlin-voiceover: Storiesaboutus.

Chris: Ittooksomethingthatwasincrediblymessyandremainsincrediblymessyandarrangeditintothisformthatiskindofpracticallyperfect.

Caitlin-voiceover: That'smyfriendChris.DrChris.Theguyfromuniwhowasalwaysdestinedtobeawise,tenuredprofessor.

Chris: AndIthinkthatIknewyouwereinterestedinthosekindsofquestions.

Caitlin-voiceover: We'retalkingaboutTheArgonautsbyMaggieNelson.Ihavemycopyrightinfrontofmeontopofthissortofpileofbooksthatformabibliographyofmyidentity.

Chris: Andinparticular,IthinkthatitwasperhapsatimewhenIatleasthadthesensethatyouweren'tfeelingrootedtoplaceorthatyouwerefeelingabitunmoored,maybe.

Caitlin-voiceover: TheArgonautsispart-memoir,part-criticaltheory,allaboutMaggie'spregnancy,familyandherrelationshipwithhergenderfluidpartner,Harry.

Caitlin: Forme,it'sbeenincredibletobe,um,readingtheworkofgendernonconformingpeople.ButwhatI'vefoundsoexquisiteandsoaffirmingaboutTheArgonautsisthatIwentintoitkindofidentifyingwiththeauthor,withMaggieNelson,who'saciswoman.ButbytheendofthebookIfeltlikeHarryandthewaythatshejustfanciestheshitoutofhimandtalksabouthowbrilliantandhowsexyheisandtheideathatyoucanbegendernonconforming,thatyoucanbecomplex,thatyoucanbesomeonelikeHarryandstillbelovedinthat,likeintenseandpoeticway.Thatformewaslike,ohmyGod.

Chris: Yeah,andbeingdesiredwithevengreaterforce,right?

Caitlin: Yeah.

Chris: Yourjourneywithyourgenderidentitywouldhavebeencatalysedregardless,right?

Caitlin: Itjusthappenedattheexactrighttime.Andit,youknow,arrivedcompletelyunmarkedinabrownbitofcardboardonmydoorstepandIstartedreadingitandIthinkIsentyouamessagegoing,"Ihavecancelledtwolunchdatestocontinuetoreadthisnow."

Chris: SoI'mresponsibleforthedeathofyoursociallifeiswhatyou'retryingtosay.

Caitlin: Thankyousomuch,itwasexhausting.

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Caitlin-voiceover: Whoshowedyouwhoyouwere?IrememberGaelGarcíaBernalandDiegoLunashowingmethatIwasbiwhenIcaughtthefilm,YTuMamáTambiénontheTVasakid.IrememberBenWhishawinaknittedwaistcoatasanidealisticyoungBBCreportershowingmethatIwasaproducerwhenIsawhiminTheHour.IrememberTheSmithsshowingmethatIwasahopelessromanticwhenIfoundmyselfsingingalongto"ThereIsaLightThatNeverGoesOut"inmybedroom.Butnooneshowedmewhatanon-binarypersonwas.TherewasamomentwhereIthinkIwastryingtofindtheexactmidpointbetweenKatharineHepburnandCaryGrant;akindoftightropewalkeracrossthecanyonofgender,butIfelloff.Ifelloffthewholemetaphor.

Amrou: Thereareexamplesthroughouttimeofnon-binarycharactersinworksofliteratureifyouknowwheretofindthem.

Caitlin: Andwheredidyoufindthem?

Amrou: Ithinksci-fiwasareallyimportantplaceforme.Itjustgavemetheimaginativespaceto,like,thinkaboutmyidentityinawaythatwasn'tlikelimitedbywhatIknewrealitytobe.UrsulaLeGuinwassomeoneIreallyloved.Whohaveyoufoundthat'shelpedyouwithyournon-binaryidentity?

Caitlin: TerryPratchettismyabsolutefavouriteauthorandwhatI'vereally,reallyvaluedabouttheDiscworldbooks,whichisaseriesofover40novels…

Amrou: Isthathowmanyofthem?It'swild.

Caitlin: Yeah,andwhat'sreallyspecialaboutthatworldformeisthemultiplicityofgendernon-conformingpeople.Soyou'vegot,oneofmyfavoritecharactersisCheeryLittlebottom,whoisadwarf,andindwarfsociety,everyonepresentsmaleanduseshepronouns.AndwhenCheerystartsusingfemalepronounsandpresentinginamorefeminineway,shehasthisincrediblekindofjourney,andthere'samomentattheendofoneofthebooksinwhichshefeatureswheresheissortofacceptedbyothermoretraditionaldwarvesasyouknow,awomanasafemaledwarf,um,andpresentinginthissortoffeminineway.Andthenshegoes,actually,"Idon't…Idon'twanttowearadresstotheceremony.I'll,I'lljustdressinsortoftraditionaldwarfenoutfit."AndIreallyidentifiedCheeryasanon-binarycharacterbecausethedecisionthatCheerymakesis,istolivesomewhereinthemiddleandIthinkthatthat'ssoexciting.

Amrou: Yeah.Ithinkpeopleunderestimatehowimportantaconversationitis,especiallywhenyou'regrowingupandyou'regenderquestioning.Thefirstthingyoudoisyoulookonascreenandyoutryandfindsomethingthatyouidentifywith.Ifyoudon'tfindsomethingyouidentifywithorresonateswithyou,itcanactuallyreallyskewyouridentity,Ithink.IrememberonlyhavingQueerAsFolk-andum,andIloveQueerAsFolk-andAngelsInAmericawerethetwofirstqueerthingsIwatched,andIthinktheywereverywhite,theywerebasicallymostlyexclusivelywhite.ButitwastheclosestI'vefoundtome.ButIalwaysthinklikeiftherehadbeenpeopleofcolouronthatornon-binarypeopleonthat,Iwouldhavefeltsomuchmoresafe.IthinkwiththatIjust

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thought,"Ohmygayidentityisokay,"butIdidn'tevengettoreallythinkaboutmygenderidentity.SoIthinkourgenerationhaveareallyimportanttaskaheadofourselvesintermsofmakingsurewe'rerepresentedsothatfuturequestioningpeoplecanhavealitmustestonscreen.

Caitlin-voiceover: Bothofussawaglimmerofourselves,eventhoughitwasn'tperfectortotallyrelatable.It'snotoftenwefindourselvesinthemainstream,eveninsubtext.It'ssomethingthatwehavetofindaroundtheedges.SoAmrouandIwenttomeetaperformer,someonewho'sallaboutcreatingthosespacesforfolkstotelltheirownstories.

ShayShay: …AndIcanonlycallhimonceayear.

Caitlin-voiceover: We'resittinginlegendaryqueervenue,theRoyalVauxhallTaverninLondonandthat'sShayShay,hostofTheShayShayShow,wherequeerpeopleofallgenderscomeonstagetosharestories,jokesandexperiences.

ShayShay: …Thisisgoingtobethelastshow…

Caitlin-voiceover: Honestly,Iamanindoorqueer.Ihatebeingoutpast10andIcannotcopewithloudmusic.IlikemybooksandIlikestreamingoldmovies.ButShayShayknowstheirqueernightlife-andthepowerthatithas.

ShayShay: WhenIfirstcameintothescene,youknowtheplacesIwasgoing,likeEastLondonspotshadalotmorelikecooleventshappening.Theywerecoolbuttheywerenotfun.Andthentherewasum,SinkthePinkwasreallybigatthetimeandlikethenumbersdidn'tmatterandeveryonegotonthestageandeveryonewasinhorriblecostumesoramazinglooks…

Amrou: Anditsweatedlikecrazythere...

ShayShay: Anditsweated...noonecared.

Amrou: Iknow,myfavourite.

ShayShay: Itwas,itwassomuchfun.ItwasaveryearlySinkthePink.ItookahousemateofmineandthiswaswhenIwasearly,going,likejuststartingtoexperimentwithlooksandliketryingtorepresentkindoftheconfusionofgenderIhadatthetimeinsidemeintoamore,youknow,androgynousjumpsuitssituation.Um,andItookahousematewithme.Idon'tknowhowtheyidentifiedatthetime,buttheywouldgoaslikeadragkingcharacterandtheydiditafewtimesandthenslowly,like,beganthetransitionprocessandnowareafullblowntransman.Andtheysentmeamessagemaybeayearafterthatfirsttimewewentsayingsomethinglike,"I'msogladthatyoubroughtmetoSinkthePink.ItwasthefirstplacewhereIactuallystartedtofigureoutwhatwasgoingonwithmeand,like,thatmarkslikethebeginningofmytransition,"andIwaslike,"Wow,that'ssoamazing."Like,likeitalsowasthebeginningofmyfiguringoutmynon-binaryness.

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Amrou: OnethingthatIloveabouttheShayShayshow,thelastoneIwentto,itwasloadsoffunandImet,Imetloadsofpeople,butitwasalsoreally,forsomereason,alotoftheperformancesareaboutmentalhealth.AndsomeonecamefromThePriorytotalkabouttheirexperienceofbeingsectionedinaveryrealway:thisiswhatit'slike,thisiswhatyoudo,thisiswhatyoudon'tdo.Um,anditwasincrediblyhonestandalotofpeopleItalktoaboutthatShayShayshowwaslike,"OhmyGod,thatnightmeantsomuchtomebecauseitreallymademefeelsomuchlessstigmaaboutmyownmentalhealth."Andalotofqueerpartieshavesomuchapathy.Ifindeveryone's,like,aboutthelook—they'renotaboutthestoriesandhearingwhatotherpeoplehavehadtogothrough.

ShayShay: Also,alotofthetime,maybethethingthatI'mbringinguphasn'tdawneduponeveryoneintheroom.Ioftentalkaboutspecifically,youknow,beingaqueerAsianperson,there'sallthesecomplicatedthingsofbeinganAsianmaleandthefeminisationofthat.AndwhenIgettotalkaboutthoseonascaleandtalkabouthistoriesthataren'tasknown,likemyfamily'sinternmentduringWorldWarII,andwhenIgettosharethesethingswithpeople,I'mlike,oh,there'salsoalevelofeducationthatcanhappen.SometimesIcanentertainandeducateatthesametime,andwhenthathappens,Igetthisverylike,ooh,buzzinside.Like,ohyeah,thisis,thisiswhatit'sallabout.I'mveryluckywiththeShayShayshow,Imeanaudiencemembershaverangedfrompeople'sparents,people'sgrandparents.

Amrou: People'sparentscome?

ShayShay: Alotofparentshavecome,whichisreallygreat.MyDadwasthereonceforaveryspecialone.Um,itwaslikeamostlytranslineupandmydadbytheend,like,thenextday,likehadallthesequestionsformebecausehewastryingtounderstandeverythingandsometimeshedidn'tquitegetit.Heknewhecouldn'taskinthatmoment,sohelikejotteddownquestionsforme.Sometimeskidswerethere,whichwaslike…kids!

Caitlin: That'sreallynice.

ShayShay: Kidslovequeerperformers.

Amrou: Mostofthethingsthatyou'reworkingoncreatespaceswhereloadsofdifferentum,kindsoftalentcanalsolikejointheconversation.

ShayShay: Creatingaspaceandanatmospherewasalwaysmyhighestgoal.Intermsofnegotiating,like,theescapebutalso,like,gettingrealatthesametime,Ithinkkindofstrikingabalancebetweenthetwoiswhatusuallyhappenskindofonitsownatmyshow.Sometimesyouseesomeonedoaclassicballadorapopsongandyouunderstandthatsonginawholenewlightbecausethey'reputtingtheirstoryontoitandsuddenly,ohmygosh,thattrackcouldbeabouttransitioningorsomethingwhenobviouslythewriterdidn'twriteitthatway,butsuddenlythelyricsandtheemotionhaveawholenewstory.

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Caitlin: We'vebeentalkingaboutthatquitealotaboutlookingbackat,youknow,films,TVshows,books,anythingthatyoucankindoffindaqueerstoryandespeciallynon-binarystories,becausenon-binaryidentityfeelsreally,reallyinvisibleintermsof,like,narrativebasically.

ShayShay: IthinkI,like,quiteidentifiedwithandlovedmagicalpeople,especiallyMatilda.Irememberthinkinglike,"OhmyGod,ifIwasbulliedmore,maybeIwouldfindmypowers!Likemaybeifmyparentsweren'tsoloving,Iwouldfindmypowers!”IrememberSabrinatheTeenageWitch

Caitlin: Yes…!

ShayShay: …reallyhopethatonmy16thbirthdayI'dstartfloatingabovemybed.LikethesekindofpeoplethathadtohidetheirmagicinarealworldIthinkrelatedtomeinthewaythat,like,IknewIwasmagicalfromaveryyoungageandsodideveryoneelse.

Caitlin: ItotallyfeellikethataboutSailorMoonthough.

ShayShay: OhmyGod,SailorMoon.

Caitlin-voiceover: SailorMoon.ClassicninetiesJapanesecartoonaboutprettymagicalgirlswithverystrongqueerenergy,vaguelySapphicundertonestoeverycharacterandatrioofheroeswhoswitchedfrommaletofemalewhenitcomestimetofightcrime.

Caitlin: SailorMoon.Iwaslike,yeah,thisisgreat.

ShayShay: Andhot.

Caitlin: Ilovemagic,thisisreallycool,andthey'reallgayforeachotherobviously.

ShayShay: Yeah,totes.

Caitlin: Andthenyouknow,afewseriesinwhentheyintroducedSailorUranuswhopassesformalemostofthetimeandtheniswearinganamazingshortskirtandislikeasexybutchlady.ButSailorUranusisfullonnon-binary.

ShayShay: Yeah!

Caitlin: Sohowdoyouthinkthe,thequeersofthefuturearegoingtolookbackatourgenerationand,andlookatwhatwedid?

ShayShay: Ifeellikethey'lllookbackandbelike,"Oh,I'mgladtheydidallthat.Thisisproblematic,thatwasproblematicandthat'sterrible,thisweneedtoignorebecausethiswasprettygood,"andlikebelike,"Wow,wehavesomuchmoreworktodostill."BecauseIfeellikethat'showwelookbackatthepast,wedolookwithsomuchrespect,butlikesomanymovementsthatdidsomuchandmovesoforward,werenotinclusive.

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Amrou: Right.

ShayShay: Andwe'reabletorecognisethatfrom,youknow,ourcurrentlevelofwokenessifyouwill,butthey'regoingtobewaymoreawakeinthefuture,theyprobablywon'tsleepatall!Um,ImeanIwouldlove,Iwouldlove,love,lovethatinthefuturethey'reabletolookatthiskindoferawe'reinatthismomentandseethenon-binaryrise,theriseofthey/thempronounsandlike,becauseIknowit'sgoingtotakeawhile,butwewillgettoapointwhereitisverynormal.

Caitlin-voiceover: Sowhatcouldthenon-binaryriselooklike?

Dennis: Mydesperateandsincerehopeisthatit'sgoingtobeenormouslyexpansive.

Caitlin: DennisNorrisIIisawriter-andco-hostofthepodcast,Food4Thot.

Dennis-voiceover: WelcometoFood4Thot,apodcastgabfest,whereamultiracialmixofqueerwritersgatheraroundthetabletotalkaboutsex,identity,culture,whatweliketoreadandwhoweliketoread.Food4Thot.Don'tdiet,tryit(laughter).

Caitlin-voiceover: WecallDennisattheirplaceinNewYorkCity.

Dennis: It'soneofthoseplaces,youknow,it'slikelove/hate.

Caitlin: Yeah.ImovedtoLondonlikesixyearsagoandIjustfeellikeI'mconstantlystillhavingapanicattackbutatthesametimeIcan'timaginelivinganywherelessexcitingnow.

Dennis: It'sthatexactsamefeeling.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Dennis: Constantlyhavingapanic.

Caitlin-voiceover: Denniscameoutasnon-binaryprettyrecently.So,doesbeingafull-timewordsmithmakeiteasiertotalkaboutyourgender?

Dennis: Someofthethingsthatwe'resortoftalkingabouttodayarethingsthatIdidn'tevenhavelanguagefor,um,notthatlongago.Andthismoment,whatI'mcomingoutabout,issomethingthatsometimespeopledon'tevenknowthatthat'slikeathinglike,um,like…ifwhenIcameoutasa15-year-oldasgay,Ididn'thavetoexplainwhatthatmeanttoanyone.Ithinkbeingawriter,um,definitelydoeshelp.WhenIwasgrowingup,Ididn'tnecessarilyhavethelanguageofbeingnon-binary,butIdidhavethelanguageofbeingandrogynous.Androgynywasahugepartofmelookingforandfindingrepresentationformyself.

Caitlin: Doyouthinkthatthisgenerationofpeoplewhoareintheirearlyteenageyearsnowaregettingacompletelydifferentraftof,ofkindsofrepresentationofandrogynouspeopleorgendernonconformingpeople?

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Dennis: Yeah,Icertainlythinkit'sgettingalotbetter.Idon'tknowthatit'swhereitneedstobebecauseit'sstillthefactthatit'shappeningorthatit'sbeginningtohappenislikeconsideredremarkable-andifit'sconsideredremarkablethenyouknowit'snothappeningenough.Ithinkingeneralinthemediaitisalotmorepresent,soIthinkthesepeoplearegettingawiderswathforsure.AndtherearesomanymorekindofresourcesfrompeopletofindrepresentationthanIthinktherewere20yearsagowhenyoulookatlikejustthedifferentmediaformsthatareoutthatareavailable.

Caitlin: Welllikepodcastingisagreatexampleofthat.Andhowdoesitfeelforyoutobe,um,kindofcomingoutwhilstyou'vegotthissuccessfulpodcastonair?

Dennis: Youknow,thatwasreallywildbecausethenumberoflikesIgotandthenumberofcommentsthatIgotwassohuge.Iwaslike,“Ohmygoodness!”Likethisisacoolthingbecause,um,there'snotatonofum,non-binaryrepresentation.Sothatwasprettyhuge.ButIalsofeltverycomfortablebecauseIknewIwasn'ttheonlyperson,likeintheliteraryworld,I'mnottheonlypersontobesortoflikepubliclyoutasnon-binary.Um,andnotinthesortofdigitalaudiospaceeither.SolikeIcould,therewerepeopleinmindthatIcouldthinkofwhocamebeforeme.

Caitlin: Areyouthinkingaboutwhatyou'regoingtocreatebasedonnowbeingkindofpubliclynon-binary?

Dennis: Yes.Um,that'ssomethingthatIthinkaboutalotbecauseI'mveryclosetofinishinganovelthatIhavebeenworkingonforsevenyears.

Amrou: Oh,wow.Congrats.

Dennis: Thankyou,thankyou.PartofthewaythatthenovelstartedwasthatIrealisedI'dneverencounteredacharacterwhoreallyremindedmeofmewhowaslikethemaincharacter,um,whowasanobjectofdesire,whohadafabulouslifeintermsofbeingwell-educated,havingagoodcareer,um,andwhowaslikeaneffeminateblackqueerman.Whenyou'rewritinganovelthatwithacharacterthatsortofreallycloselymirrorsyou,it'slikeeverythingthathappenstomeincertainwaysthatfeelsrelevanttowhatI'mwritingabout,Ikindofwanttoinclude.Soit'sbeensomethingthatI'vebeenthinkingaboutalotbecauseIwaslike,oh,shouldIalsothenbethinkinghavingthischaracterthinkingaboutwhetherornottheymightbetransornon-binaryandwhatthat'smeant.AndIthinkI'vesortofdecidedthatI'mnotgoingtodothatsomuchwiththisbookintermsofnamingit?Butit'sbeenveryconfusingbecauseit'slikewhatdoesthatmean?

Caitlin: Doesitmakeyoufeellikeyouhaveasortofsenseofresponsibilityothernon-binarypeopleaswell?Yousuddenlybecomethiskindofobjectofrepresentationratherthansearchingforit?

Dennis: Yes.Yeah.Um,andit'slike,butyeah,Ifeelthatit's,thatdoesabsolutelyaffectthewaythatIthinkabout,um,mycreativityand,andmywork.

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Amrou: Andwe'vegotthoseanxietiesastwonon-binarypeopleputtingoutthispodcast,butIthinkwhatitsaysisthat,youknow,therewouldprobablyfeelliketherewaslesspressureiftherewasjustwaymorenon-binaryvoicestakingupspacebecauseeachnon-binaryidentityhaswaydifferentintersections.Youwerementioning,youknow,theintersectionwithraceisareallyspecificone.

Caitlin: Yeah.Andespeciallyinthecontextof,becausethisissuchabigdiversegroupofpeoplethatissopoorlyunderstood,youfeellikeinstantlythatyou'vegottheresponsibilitytorepresenteveryoneeventhoughyou'reonlyyourself.

Dennis: Yes,exactly.

Caitlin: ItstrikesmethatalotofLGBTQ+representation,um,hasbeenkindofwallowinginourtraumaandmisery.AndI,oneofthethingsthatIfoundreallyniceaboutreadingmorequeerauthorsisfindingpeoplewhoarejustlikehavingsomefunwithit.Whatdoyouthinkthekindoffutureof,representation,especiallyliteraryrepresentationforyouof,ofqueerpeopleisgoingtobelike?

Dennis: Certainlythereistraumatobewrittenaboutandtobetalkedaboutandtobediscussedandbefilmedandtobefeatured.Um,butlifeisnotalltrauma.Queerlifespecificallyisnotalltrauma.AcoupleofyearsagoIstudiedwiththegreatnovelistAlexanderCheeandwhenhesentmemywrittencritiqueofwhathe'dreadofmynovel,hesaid,youknow,"I'mnotsayingthatyouoweyourcharacterahappyending,butwhatIamsayingisthattheworldneedstoknowthatourlivesarenotjusttraumaandthenwedie."Atthismoment.I'mmeetingsomanypeople,there'ssomanyqueerpeople.Theyarelikeknockingdowndoorseverysingledaytogetourstoriesoutthere.Um,andthat'sreallyexciting.SoI,myhopeisthatitreallyisexpandinginabigwayandveryquicklyandmyhopeisthatthatmaintainsthatit'snotjustatrend,butthatisatruesortoflikereckoningfortheindustryandatruemomentofgrowth.

Caitlin: Ilikethatidea.

Caitlin-voiceover: Iliketheideathattheworldisreallyexpandingtoincludethestoriesofpeoplelikeme.IliketheideathatpeoplelikeShayShayandDennisaregettingoutthereandtellingtheirstories,makingsurethatnomoregenerationsgrowupwithoutseeingthemselvesandIhopethatthisstoryispartofthat.

Butnowit'stimeformetotakethestoryhomewithmetomyfamily.Nexttimeyoulistentothispodcast,itwillbecomingtoyoufromsunnyAustraliaandI'mgoingtobecomingouttomyparents.

Amrou-voiceover: You’vebeenlisteningtoNB.Presentedbythem,CaitlinBenedict.

Caitlin-voiceover: Andthem,AmrouAl-Kadhi.

Amrou-voiceover: YoucanfindusbothonTwitter.Caitlinis@caitlinbenny

Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouis@glamrou

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Amrou-voiceover: NBwasproducedbyArlieAdlington,CaitlinBenedictandGeorgiaCatt.

Caitlin-voiceover: TheeditorwasAliceFeinstein.

Amrou-voiceover: ItwasaBBCRadioArtsproductionforBBCSounds.

Caitlin-voiceover: SubscribetoNB,thebestpodcast,onBBCSounds.

Amrou-voiceover: Thereareotherpodcastsontheretoo…

Caitlin-voiceover: Butthisisthebestone.

Transcriptends.