National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous ......Oct 03, 2018 · Paloma Corrin (Legal...

National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered

Indigenous Women and Girls

Truth-Gathering Process

Parts 2 & 3 Institutional & Expert/Knowledge -Keeper

“Child & Family Welfare”

Fort Garry Hotel, Grand Ballroom

Winnipeg, Manitoba

Mixed Part 2 & 3 Volume 12

Wednesday October 3, 2018

Panel 2: Dr. Cindy Blackstock

(Continuation of June 13, 2018 Toronto hearing)

Panel 3: Susan Aglukark

INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 41-5450 Canotek Road, Ottawa, Ontario, K1J 9G2

E-mail: [email protected] – Phone: 613-748-6043 – Fax: 613-748-8246

National Inquiry into

Missing and Murdered

Indigenous Women and Girls

Enquête nationale

sur les femmes et les filles

autochtones disparues et assassinées

PUBLIC

II

APPEARANCES

Animakee Wa Zhing #37 First

Nation / Obashkaandagaang

First Nation / Eagle Lake

First Nation/Grassy Narrows

First Nation / Ojibway Nation

of Saugeen as a single

collective party

Whitney Van Bellegham (Legal

Counsel), Paloma Corrin

(Legal Counsel)

Assembly of First Nations Stuart Wuttke (Legal Counsel)

Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs Joëlle Pastora Sala

(Legal Counsel)

Association of Native Child &

Family Service Agencies

Ontario (ANCFSAO)

Katherine Hensel (Legal

Counsel), Theresa Stevens

(Representative)

Awo Taan Healing Lodge

Society

Darrin Blain (Legal Counsel)

Battered Women’s Support

Services

Angela MacDougall, Viola

Thomas, Brandy Kane, Summer

Rain Bentham

(Representatives)

Canadian Association of

Chiefs of Police (CACP)

Ashley Smith (Legal Counsel)

Congress of Aboriginal

Peoples

Alisa Lombard (Legal Counsel)

Directeur des poursuites

criminelles et pénales

(Québec)

Anny Bernier (Legal Counsel)

Downtown Eastside Women

Centre

Carol Martin, Reta Blind

(Representatives)

Eastern Door Indigenous

Women's Association

Natalie D. Clifford

(Legal Counsel)

Government of Alberta Kate Bridgett (Legal Counsel)

III

APPEARANCES

Government of British

Columbia

Sara Pye (Legal Counsel)

Jean Walters (Legal Counsel)

Government of Canada Lucy Bell (Legal Counsel)

Anne McConville

(Legal Counsel)

Government of Manitoba Wendy Post (Legal Counsel)

Kendra Jarvinen

(Legal Counsel)

Government of New Brunswick Heather Hobart (Legal Counsel)

Government of Newfoundland

and Labrador

Dr. Judith Lovas

(Representative), Denise

Spencer (Legal Counsel)

Government of the Northwest

Territories

Brad Porter (Legal Counsel)

Government of Saskatchewan Barbara Mysko (Legal Counsel)

Independent First Nations Diane Maracle-Nadjiwon

(Representative), Josephine de

Whytell (Legal Counsel)

Institute for the Advancement

of Aboriginal Women

Rachelle Venne

(Representative)

Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami (ITK) Elizabeth Zarpa

(Legal Counsel)

Liard Aboriginal Women’s

Society

Carly Teillet (Legal Counsel)

Manitoba Keewatinowi

Okimakanak (MKO)

Jessica Barlow (Legal Counsel)

Manitoba Moon Voices Tanis Wheeler & Alaya McIvor

(Observers)

IV

APPEARANCES

Mishkeegogamang First Nation

Paloma Corrin (Legal Counsel)

Whitney Van Bellegham

(Legal Counsel)

MMIWG Coalition Manitoba Catherine Dunn (Legal Counsel)

Native Women’s Association of

Canada

Virginia Lomax (Legal Counsel)

Native Women’s Association of

Northwest Territories

Caroline Wawzonek

(Legal Counsel)

New Brunswick Aboriginal

Peoples Council

NunatuKavut Community Council

Amanda LeBlanc

(Representative)

Roy Stewart (Legal Counsel)

Ontario Federation of

Indigenous Friendship Centres

Niki Hashie (Representative)

Pauktuutit Inuit Women of

Canada, Saturviit Inuit

Women’s Association,

AnânauKatiget Tumingit

Regional Inuit Women’s

Association, Ottawa Inuit

Children's Centre and

Manitoba Inuit Association

Beth Symes (Legal Counsel)

Regina Treaty Status Indian

Services

Erica Beaudin (Representative)

Saskatchewan Association of

Chiefs of Police

Katrina Swan (Legal Counsel)

Saskatchewan Aboriginal

Women’s Circle

Kellie R. Wuttunee

(Legal Counsel)

V

APPEARANCES

Treaty Alliance Northern

Ontario - Nishnawbe Aski

Nation/Grand Council Treaty

#3

Krystyn Ordyniec (Legal

Counsel), Anna Betty

Achneepineskum (NAN

Representative), Elysia

Petrone-Reitberger

(Legal Counsel)

Vancouver Sex Workers' Rights

Collective

Carly Teillet (Legal Counsel)

Winnipeg Police Service Kimberly D. Carswell

(Legal Counsel)

VI

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Truth-Gathering Process

Mixed Parts 2 & 3 Volume 12

Institutional & Expert / Knowledge-Keeper Hearings:

“Family & Child Welfare”

Panel 2: Dr. Cindy Blackstock (continuation of Dr. Blackstock’s

testimony from Toronto Part 3 hearing held

June 13, 2018)

Witness: Dr. Cindy Blackstock, First Nations Child and Family

Caring Society of Canada

Chair: Christa Big Canoe, Commission Counsel

Second Chair: Shelby Thomas, Commission Counsel

Panel 3: Susan Aglukark, Arctic Rose Foundation

Chair: Jennifer Cox

Heard by Chief Commissioner Marion Buller & Commissioners

Michèle Audette, Brian Eyolfson & Qajaq Robinson

Grandmothers, Elders, Family Members & Knowledge-keepers:

Lorraine Clements (National Family Advisory Circle – NFAC),

Lesa Semmler (NFAC), Louise Haulli, Pénélope Guay, Leslie

Spillett, Laureen “Blu” Waters, Bernie Williams, Dave McPherson

(Firekeeper), Benjamin Morrisseau (Firekeeper), Annie Bowkett,

Thelma Morrisseau & Stan Lapierre, Jenny Lay, Isabella Daniels,

Velma Orvis, Mary Crate & Agnes Spence & Dawnis Kennedy

Clerks: Maryiam Khoury & Gladys Wraight

Registrar: Bryan Zandberg

VII

TABLE OF CONTENTS

PAGE Opening Remarks 1

Panel 2: Dr. Cindy Blackstock

In-Chief Examination by MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE 6

CROSS-EXAMINATIONS OF PANEL 2 BY PARTIES WITH STANDING

Cross-Examination by MS. CATHERINE DUNN 39

Cross-Examination by MR. STUART WUTTKE 45

Cross-Examination by MS. BETH SYMES 52

Cross-Examination by MS. AMANDA LEBLANC 57

Cross-Examination by MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC 64

Cross-Examination by MS. SUMMER RAIN BENTHAM 70

Cross-Examination by MR. ROY STEWART 76

Cross-Examination by MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK 81

Cross-Examination by MS. KATHERINE HENSEL 87

Cross-Examination by MS. JESSICA BARLOW 93

Cross-Examination by MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA 99

Cross-Examination by MS. JOSEPHINE DE WHYTELL 106

Cross-Examination by MS. CARLY TEILLET 111

Cross-Examination by MS. SUZAN FRASER 117

Cross-Examination by MS. CARLY TEILLET 123

Cross-Examination by MS. VIRGINIA LOMAX 127

Cross-Examination by MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM 133

Cross-Examination by MS. ALISA LOMBARD 145

Cross-Examination by MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA 151

Cross-Examination by MS. ERICA BEAUDIN 157

RE-EXAMINATION OF PANEL 2 by MS. CRISTA BIG CANOE 163

QUESTIONS BY THE COMMISSIONERS

Questions by COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON 170

Questions by CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER 179


In-Chief Examination by MS. JENNIFER COX 190

CROSS-EXAMINATIONS OF PANEL 3 BY PARTIES WITH STANDING

Cross-Examination by MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA 243

Cross-Examination by MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK 250

Cross-Examination by MR. ROY STEWART 255

Cross-Examination by MS. BETH SYMES 262

QUESTIONS BY THE COMMISSIONERS

Questions by COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON 268

Questions by COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON 277

Questions by COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE 277

VIII

LIST OF EXHIBITS

NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

Panel 2: Dr. Cindy Blackstock (continuation of Dr. Blackstock’s

testimony from Toronto Part III hearing held June 13, 2018)

Witness: Dr. Cindy Blackstock, First Nations Child and Family

Caring Society of Canada

24 “Just Societies: Health Equity and Dignified Lives: 25

Executive Summary of the Commission of the Pan

American Health Organization on Equity and Health

Inequalities in the Americas,” Pan American Health

Organization 2018, ISBN: 978-92-75-12021-7 (76 pages)

25 “Safe with Intervention: The Report of the Expert 27

Panel on the Deaths of Children and Youth in

Residential Placements,” September 2018 (86 pages))

26 Advisory report “I Want to Grow Up in My Community: A 27

Review of the Child and Family Services Act,” by Cindy

Blackstock for the Northwest Territories Committee on

Social Programs, April 27, 2010 (28 pages)

27 Recommendations by Dr. Cindy Blackstock (one page) 28

28 Spirit Bear Plan (one page) 164

IX

LIST OF EXHIBITS

NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE


29 CV of Susan Aglukark, O.C. (one page) 191

30 Biography & backgrounder of Susan Aglukark 191

(two pages)

31 The Arctic Rose Foundation document (three pages) and 241

Powerpoint presentation (nine slides)

32 Photograph displayed during the public testimony 242

of Susan Aglukark

33 “Inuit Cultural Transitioning: Re-setting a 242

Transition Path,” by Susan Aglukark (four pages)

Opening Ceremony

1

Winnipeg, Manitoba 1

--- The hearing starts on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 2

at 8:11 3

MS. SHAUNA FONTAINE: Okay. So, I would 4

like to thank everybody for joining us again here today on 5

day 3 of our expert, institutional and knowledge keeper 6

hearings on the family and child welfare. We are going to 7

be hearing from Dr. Cindy Blackstock this morning, but to 8

begin with, we would like to open up the day in a good way 9

and I would like to invite Mary Crate to offer us a prayer 10

and also Sarah DeLaronde to come on up and offer us an 11

honour song. 12

MS. MARY CRATE: (Speaking in Indigenous 13

language) -- our Indigenous leaders that will be entering 14

the house again today, we think of them also. (Speaking 15

in Indigenous language). We think of the workers that are 16

here, that have been placed in this -- to do this work, to 17

figure out how we can lift the pain that we all go through 18

the loss of our loved ones. I ask for strength for them, 19

I ask for clarity in their minds, bodies and spirits, and 20

I ask for good things to happen and that we can walk away 21

with lightened heart from this place when we leave. 22

(Speaking in Indigenous language). 23

(MUSICAL PRESENTATION) 24

MS. SHAUNA FONTAINE: Meegwetch. Thank 25

Opening Ceremony

2

you. We would now like to ask Annie Bowkett to light the 1

qulliq for us. 2

ELDER ANNIE BOWKETT: Qajaq is going to 3

interpret for me. Thank you. (Speaking Inuktitut) 4

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: Let us pray. 5

ELDER ANNIE BOWKETT: (Speaking Inuktitut). 6

I just -- before I -- (Speaking Inuktitut). 7

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: Before I 8

light the qulliq, I would like to say a few words. 9

ELDER ANNIE BOWKETT: (Speaking Inuktitut). 10

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: I received a 11

gift, something I wasn’t expecting at all from Pauktuutit, 12

the National Inuit Women’s Organization. 13

MS. ANNIE BOWKETT: (Speaking Inuktitut). 14

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: This shawl is 15

adorned with the images of the ulu, the woman’s tool. 16


COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: It is so 18

wonderful and uplifting when you receive wonderful gifts 19

that were unexpected, and I am very grateful. I express 20

my gratitude. 21


COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: The qulliq 23

was placed further up the last couple of days. We have 24

moved it back, because the fan was right above and it was 25

Opening Ceremony

3

creating too much of a storm. 1

MS. ANNIE BOWKETT: (Speaking Inuktitut). I 2

never knew jokes in my -- (Speaking Inuktitut) 3

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: I am not one 4

to be a joker or to tell jokes, to be funny, but I want to 5

share that yesterday, while having coffee in the break 6

area, it was shared with me that at the front of the room, 7

in this state, I look like a queen. 8


COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: In my future, 10

I wish to sit like a queen. 11

(LAUGHTER) 12

MS. ANNIE BOWKETT: (Speaking Indigenous 13

language). 14

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: I just 15

express my gratitude for that, and I am going to light the 16

qulliq now. 17

MS. ANNIE BOWKETT: Thank you. 18

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: We can start. 19

MS. SHAUNA FONTAINE: Meegwetch, thank you. 20

I just -- before we get started with hearing testimony 21

from Dr. Cindy Blackstock, I just wanted to remind 22

everybody that if you feel triggered by any means, or you 23

need to speak with somebody, or just spend some time on 24

your own, we do have a space upstairs. We have the 25

Opening Ceremony

4

Elder’s Room where you can access some traditional 1

medicines and be able to speak to somebody. 2

You can also find all of our health and 3

cultural supports, kind of, throughout the space here and 4

upstairs. They are wearing purple lanyards. So, if you 5

do need somebody to speak to, you can certainly go and do 6

that. Do you want to take a couple of minutes, Chief 7

Commissioner, to get settled? We will take five minutes 8

to get settled before we hear from Dr. Cindy Blackstock. 9

Meegwetch. 10

--- Upon recessing at 8:26 11

--- Upon resuming at 8:33 12

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: We are going to get 13

started. Good morning, Chief Commissioner, commissioners. 14

(Speaking Indigenous language), the members of Treaty 1 15

and the Métis. 16

So, I have just introduced myself and my 17

spirit name, Wind Changing Woman. I am Christa Big Canoe. 18

I am Anishinaabe from Georgina Island. I am of the Otter 19

Clan. The elders and grandmothers that have been part of 20

this week have been very kind and gentle to remind us to 21

introduce ourselves and to -- in a good way, so I just 22

wanted to take the time to thank the Creator, the 23

grandmothers, the grandfathers, the members of Treaty 1, 24

the territory we are on, as well as the Métis Nation. 25

Opening Ceremony

5

And, today, with great pleasure, I get to recall Dr. Cindy 1

Blackstock. 2

So, there are just a couple quick notes 3

upfront, if I might, Chief Commissioner and Commissioners. 4

I just want to remind, for the record, before we go back 5

into testimony with Dr. Blackstock, that on June 11th in 6

Toronto, Ontario, Dr. Blackstock had provided examination 7

in-chief. And, she was qualified at the time as an expert 8

specifically in the areas of social work with knowledge in 9

Indigenous theory, child engagement and the identification 10

and remediation of structural inequities affecting First 11

Nations children, youth and families. 12

She comes back to us today, because she 13

didn’t have the opportunity to be cross-examined, nor were 14

the Commissioners -- had the chance to ask questions. 15

Today, when we proceed, I will be spending just a little 16

more time with her in examination in-chief to get in one 17

new report and to go in a little more detail through the 18

recommendations that Dr. Blackstock had made. We were 19

finding ourselves in a time crunch and we were really 20

quickly zipping through the recommendations. So, now is a 21

good opportunity to afford Dr. Blackstock a chance to 22

explain in more detail what her recommendations to you 23

are. 24

Before we begin, because we are in a 25

PANEL 2

In-Ch (BIG CANOE) 6

different jurisdiction now, I will ask that Dr. Blackstock 1

reaffirm on an eagle feather, since we are now in 2

Manitoba. 3

MR. BRYAN ZANDBERG: Good morning, Dr. 4

Blackstock. Do you solemnly affirm to tell the truth, the 5

whole truth and nothing but the truth? 6

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I do. 7

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK, AFFIRMED 8

MR. BRYAN ZANDBERG: Thank you. 9

--- EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: 10

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: So, Dr. Blackstock, 11

may I call you Cindy? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, you may. 13

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you, Cindy. 14

So, Cindy, kind of one of the points we left off on before 15

we sort of rushed into some of your recommendations was 16

the failure of incremental equality and change. And, you 17

had talked to us about the Spirit Bear Plan --- 18

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. 19

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: --- and talked 20

about a number of things. But, before we hop into your 21

recommendations again, I understand that you would like to 22

discuss with us a new report, a report that just came out 23

last week. It is called Just Societies, Health Equity and 24

Dignified Lives. I understand that you have provided us, 25

PANEL 2

In-Ch (BIG CANOE) 7

and we have provided to the parties with standing, the 1

executive summary of the report of the Commission of the 2

Pan-American Health Organization on Equity and Health 3

Inequities in the Americas. 4

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. 5

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: I understand you 6

were actually one of the Commissioners on Just Societies? 7

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, I was a 8

Commissioner and remain a Commissioner, actually, until 9

the final report is published. 10

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Right. And so, the 11

executive summary itself is about 80 pages, and it lays 12

out the framework in some of the reasons why the 13

Commission was looking at equity and health inequalities 14

in the Americas. And, when we say “the Americas”, we are 15

not just talking about North America. This included South 16

America, Central America; am I --- 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: And the Caribbean. 18

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And the Caribbean. 19

Right on page 6, they kind of explain in a really concise 20

manner what this is really all about. And, one of the 21

important things the Equity Commission’s starting point 22

was that “health is an end in itself”. Can you just 23

explain that a little bit for us? 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. There is a 25

PANEL 2

In-Ch (BIG CANOE) 8

tendency sometimes to think as health as a currency to 1

achieving some other end. For example, a healthy society 2

achieves good economic outcomes. And, what the Commission 3

is arguing here is that it should be a stated goal in and 4

of itself. 5

To have health is not just currency on its 6

way to economic development. To have health is worthy of 7

being an end in itself and should, therefore, deserve the 8

adequate, and full, and comprehensive efforts of any 9

states and sub-jurisdictions of governments towards 10

achieving that end. It should get the same kind of 11

emphasis as we see as economic development and other 12

things amongst (indiscernible), that is still not the 13

case, but that is certainly something we would like to 14

see. 15

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: I know that -- 16

again, it is a large document, and we are only going to 17

focus a little time on it, but I note that a good starting 18

point for some of the conversations are ways to make 19

connections between this report and what we are talking 20

about in the Inquiry is contained at page 10. Can you 21

tell us a little bit about the Eduardo Galeano quotation? 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. He is a 23

Uruguayan journalist. And, part of my role on the 24

Commission was to focus on the situation of Indigenous 25

PANEL 2

In-Ch (BIG CANOE) 9

peoples throughout the Americas. And, in fact, I wrote 1

some of the Indigenous material that will be more 2

fulsomely presented in the final report. 3

And, as I did that research, I came upon 4

his quote, which I think really captures, to me, the 5

essence of the danger of colonialism as differentiated 6

between -- to other forms of discrimination. And, this is 7

what he writes. He says, “Blatant colonialism mutilates 8

you without pretense. It forbids you to talk, it forbids 9

you to act, it forbids you to exist. Invisible 10

colonialism, however, convinces you that serfdom is your 11

destiny and impotence is your nature. It convinces you 12

that it is not possible to speak, it is not possible to 13

act and it is not possible to exist.” 14

And, I found that quote so important, 15

because too often we talk about the mechanics of 16

colonialism. And, we too often negate the psychology of 17

colonialism... ...which builds prisons around our own 18

lives and our own existence, and gets in the way of people 19

being able to live the lives they wish to have. And, 20

because we do not give that adequate attention, we do not 21

often give attention to the structural situations that 22

reinforce that invisible colonialism within society, and 23

particular in my case because the group I work with most 24

often is children and young people. 25

PANEL 2

In-Ch (BIG CANOE) 10

I think that we see those messages, covert 1

messages that reinforce this invisible colonialism 2

throughout Canadian society. And, indeed what we found in 3

PAHO is that it was across the Americas as well, these 4

messages that Indigenous peoples by and large still are 5

the savages and that western society still is by and large 6

the civilized, predominate the, kind of, social 7

presentation in society. 8

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And so, when we are 9

talking about the history and legacy, the ongoing 10

colonialism and structural racism, what were some of the 11

things that -- and you said PAHO, that is P-A-H-O? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. That is --- 13

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: The acronym for? 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: It is the Pan 15

American Health Organization. 16

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: So, why was that 17

important to address -- PAHO to address in this particular 18

executive summary? 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Because one of the 20

focuses throughout the Americas, almost without exception 21

-- in fact I cannot identify one exception -- Indigenous 22

peoples in various countries experience health inequities 23

and health disadvantages to far greater levels than other 24

members of society. 25

PANEL 2


So, we had to pay attention to what are the 1

unique forces that would create such a disadvantage, and 2

colonialism is one of the key themes that was identified 3

to us by persons who would present to the Commission or 4

persons who would send submissions into the Commission. 5

And, indeed, some of the information we got from Canada 6

just reinforces that message amongst First Nations, Métis 7

and Inuit peoples. 8

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, if I could 9

just draw your attention to page 12, there is a 10

conversation about healthy quality and the dignified life. 11

Can you tell me a little bit about the dignified life? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. A dignified 13

life really -- that term really gave -- got a lot of 14

traction during the civil rights movement; right? We talk 15

about human rights, but what does it mean to really live 16

with dignity? 17

And so, we talked about that a little bit 18

in paragraph 2 on page 12, and it says, a dignified life 19

incorporated the principle of self-determination. Of 20

course, that is one of the bedrocks of UNDRIP, the United 21

Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, 22

which the Commission does in fact suggest that states 23

fully adopt and incorporate into domestic law. And, the 24

ability to envision and seek to realize one’s life 25

PANEL 2


project, which includes the right to make options -- the 1

options people feel are best for their own free will in 2

order to achieve their ideals. 3

And, this is something that I think I spoke 4

to quite significantly in my last testimony around the 5

importance of self-determination and the relationship to 6

the care of one’s children. And, to not only define for 7

yourself what that dream is of living with a dignified 8

life as an Indigenous person, but indeed to have the 9

ability, the tools and resources to raise your family and 10

your children in ways that lead -- for them to live in a 11

dignified life. One that honours, in my view, the dream 12

that your respective ancestors would have had for your 13

kids. 14

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, did PAHO look 15

at, sort of, anything to do with connections between self-16

determination, lands and being able to live that dignified 17

life? 18

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, we talked a lot 19

about that. In fact, in the determinants of health, one 20

of the weaknesses, as I see it, is that it actually does 21

not include land and it does not include spirituality in 22

the western constructs of determinants of health. That is 23

a significant limitation, as is the limited scope and time 24

at which most people apply the determinants of health. 25

PANEL 2


It was in escapable to us, given the 1

testimony and submissions made by Indigenous peoples, that 2

the land was more than a commodity. It has appeared in 3

different health equity reports as a peril to health in 4

the form of climate change and those types of things in 5

the past, but no one has really looked at the land itself 6

as a determinant of health. And, a land itself is having 7

a spiritual and cultural service, an identified service 8

and an essential part of living a dignified life for 9

Indigenous peoples, and we do that in this particular 10

report. 11

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Now, I understand 12

there are a number of recommendations, but particularly 13

recommendation 2, which is contained on page 26. 2(c) 14

talks about policies that protect and support the 15

relationship of Indigenous people to the land and make 16

progress in attainment of land tenure for marginalized 17

communities. So, the report includes specific 18

recommendations. 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, specific 20

recommendations on caring for the land. And, to say that 21

-- it is not enough to say that you should eat good foods 22

and drink clean water. If the land is such a vital part 23

of the living of a dignified life and the conceptions of 24

health for Indigenous people, then it was important for us 25

PANEL 2


that we included recommendations that have been made in 1

Indigenous community about care for the land itself. 2

So, for example, we have in recommendation 3

2(b) on page 26, protect biodiversity for soil health and 4

healthy ecosystems. Now, that may seem surprising to 5

appear in a health report, but when one thinks of it 6

holistically and in a way that Indigenous peoples 7

conceptualize health, it is not surprising at all. In 8

fact, it is surprising that these types of recommendations 9

do not appear more frequently in reports regarding 10

Indigenous peoples. And, that is just one example. There 11

are a whole series of them, we talk about different 12

environmental care pieces that need to be protected, 13

traditional medicines for example, and water supply, et 14

cetera. 15

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, I note in 16

2(c), the last point and recommendation, is establishing a 17

mechanism and legislation for formalizing occupation and 18

tenure of inhabitants living in informal settlements. Can 19

you tell us just a little bit about that? 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So, this is 21

the dislocation of Indigenous peoples from their 22

traditional territories is something endemic to most 23

colonial countries and the Americas, and there was a need 24

to recognize that not all Indigenous peoples are living on 25

PANEL 2


the -- anything that was proximal to their Indigenous 1

territories, and yet they still should have access and 2

indeed be able to live on their Indigenous territories. 3

And, states should be encouraged to proactively develop, 4

in consultation with Indigenous peoples, mechanisms to 5

ensure that those Indigenous persons, who were displaced 6

by a colonization, have access and indeed have the 7

affirmation of their right to live on their Indigenous 8

lands. 9

And, to also, as a secondary piece, for 10

those persons who are not wanting to live on their 11

traditional lands, that they have the right to be able to 12

access those traditional lands for the purposes of 13

visiting family, or for cultural and spiritual events, 14

whatever that might be. 15

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, I note that 16

recommendation 3, as on page 30, talks about recognizing 17

and reversing the health equity impacts of ongoing 18

colonialism and structural racism. I believe we do have a 19

visual we can put up, of the chart. And so, this is 20

contained in the report, but this clearly ties to PAHO 21

recognizing the impacts of colonialism, but the step 22

further is making recommendations to reverse the health 23

equity impacts. Can you tell us a little bit about these 24

recommendations? 25

PANEL 2


DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So, one of 1

the important pieces that we wanted to ensure that we 2

emphasized in this report, or at least certainly for my 3

participation I wanted to emphasize, it is not enough that 4

you adopt the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous 5

Peoples and provide no mechanisms to make that real in the 6

lives of Indigenous peoples. So, we were clear that you 7

need to go beyond these types of statements, or adoptions 8

or principles, if you like. And, that states and indeed 9

all of us at various levels have an obligation to ensure 10

that the resources and the space and mechanisms are there 11

to be able to realize it. 12

So, for example, one of the things -- I 13

will just turn to 3(b), in the last bullet, we asked all 14

states to codify the UN Declaration on the Rights of 15

Indigenous Peoples into domestic legislation policies and 16

practices, ensuring peoples have the resources and 17

opportunities necessary to exercise the full enjoyment of 18

rights. 19

Those things go together, they are not one 20

or the other. And, as I testified earlier, one of the key 21

components that I work on is the issue of substantive 22

equality for First Nations children -- I would extend that 23

that is probably -- that is something that should be 24

applied to Métis and Inuit children as well. But, without 25

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substantive equality structured in ways that respond to 1

that dignified life, that freedom of ability to create for 2

yourself that vision of a life, and a vision of how you 3

would like to raise your children, then you won’t achieve 4

it. It becomes nothing but words on paper. 5

And we go on there and also talked about -- 6

under 3(a) about addressing systemic racism. Of course, 7

my involvement in the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has, 8

as recently as February, the Tribunal has issued a non-9

compliance order against Canada saying that structural 10

racism continues in Canadian government policies. It is 11

not unique to Canada however. We saw inequalities amongst 12

Native Americans, Alaskan Natives, and Native Hawaiians in 13

the United States, as well as in many peoples in central 14

and South America and in the Caribbean. 15

So we felt it was important the governments 16

should endorse the UNDRIP position of affirming that 17

Indigenous Peoples are equal to all other peoples. That 18

gets rid of the savage, civilized dichotomy. However, 19

while we need to recognize the right of all peoples to be 20

different. And this is not just dealing with the 21

diversity of Indigenous Peoples amongst the nation states 22

who compose the Americas, but it’s also an important 23

reminder, and I think a caution, of the overuse of the 24

work Indigenous in Canada. And indeed, the over use of 25

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the terms Inuit, First Nations, and Métis. Because within 1

each one of those populations there are very distinct 2

groups, and cultures, and languages that need to be 3

respected. 4

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you. You 5

anticipated my next question and made the tie back to the 6

recommendations you were speaking to. 7

I want to just turn to one more 8

recommendation. I know the report contains more than 9

that, but I think it’s really relevant for the 10

Commissioner’s purpose and for that mandate of this 11

inquiry. 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Before you do that, 13

can I just emphasize one more? 14

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Sure. 15

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: And this was -- and 16

this is 3 (b), the first bullet. You don’t need to bring 17

it back up again on the thing if you -- I can read it out. 18

It says: 19

“Recognize spatial, cultural, social, and 20

intergenerational inequalities as human rights issues for 21

all ethnic groups.” (As read) 22

What we were getting at there is it’s not 23

just trauma that’s multigenerational. In fact, I think I 24

said last time, I don’t use the word healing, because I 25

PANEL 2


don’t think our cultures are really recovering from 1

sickness. I think we’re building on the multigenerational 2

strength that was handed down to us. 3

But it’s also true that the inequalities, 4

the state sponsored inequalities and discrimination is 5

multigenerational. And it’s also across time and space. 6

So it’s not in one discrete area, for example, even the 7

rights of women. The discrimination meted out by various 8

colonial governments, including the Canadian government, 9

has been wide reaching and across a time and has 10

manifested itself in a whole array of areas at the 11

individual level. 12

So not just limited to what would one would 13

conceptualize as your physical health, but indeed in ways 14

that touch on your spiritual health, your psychological 15

health -- as I’m sure you heard from Amy Bombay yesterday 16

-- and in other dimensions of your sense of being and your 17

ability to live a dignified life. So I think this 18

conceptualization of special, culture, and social and 19

intergenerational inequalities has to be looked at when we 20

-- when we talk about the multigenerational impacts. 21

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you. 22

And so, one of the other recommendations, 23

and I actually think it has a direct tie to what you were 24

just talking about, recommendation eight, which is located 25

PANEL 2


at page 50. Specifically, 8 (a), “eliminated gender-based 1

violence, especially that affecting women and girls.” And 2

so that is, I think obviously, clearly within our mandate. 3

And I would like you to share with us the -- what the 4

Commission’s recommendations are in relation to that. 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: We found that -- and 6

I think it’s very timely, right, given what’s in the news 7

broadly within society, particularly in the discussions 8

around the U.S. Supreme Court recently, that this issue of 9

gender discrimination is not just distinct to Indigenous 10

women and girls. 11

But certainly, is amplified in many cases 12

for Indigenous women and girls because it has a colonial 13

overlay on top of it, and it also is affected by these 14

multigenerational inequalities that have often been more 15

pronounced in their disadvantage for Indigenous women and 16

girls. And colonialisms kind of, imposition of a kind of 17

a patriarchal kind of society, that was often at odds with 18

some of the traditions of the Indigenous Peoples 19

throughout the Americas, and indeed in Canada. 20

So we felt we needed to kind of recognize 21

that in many countries, and indeed in Canada, and you’ll 22

see a picture of the Sisters in Spirit Movement on the 23

adjoining page, that we needed to emphasise that states 24

and indeed in society, we needed to develop educational 25

PANEL 2


programs in school. 1

And when we talk -- we mean school, I would 2

actually extend that to early childhood education. It 3

needs to begin at the very earliest stages of life where 4

children are taught about how to respect people across a 5

gender continuum. So not just that dichotomous male 6

female continuum, but across the gender continuum. And 7

that to prevent any forms of gender-based violence, and to 8

understand how that manifests at the individual level and 9

at the collective level. Because I think too often we 10

think about gender-based violence as being at a one-person 11

level. 12

But really, even if you weren’t directly 13

experiencing that discrimination, your behaviour is often 14

governed by that. So let me give you an example that just 15

came up on CNN this morning, which tells you how I spend 16

my mornings. But you know, they were talking about going 17

into a parking lot as a woman, right? You don’t 18

necessarily -- when I go into a dark parking lot as a 19

woman, I’m not afraid of other women attacking me, right? 20

But even though I’ve never been attacked by a man in a 21

parking lot, that’s something that I know from experience 22

that you have to kind of just calibrate your behaviour 23

with, right? 24

So even when we see the murdered and 25

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missing Indigenous women thing, it affects you as an 1

Indigenous woman who has not even been directly affected 2

by that. That you know that you have to mitigate your 3

behaviour and govern your behaviour, in a certain place. 4

And I would argue that that’s gender-based violence, it’s 5

an extension of gender-based violence. 6

We need to empower women through education 7

and financial independence, right? We can not -- the 8

financial dependence on someone really dissipates your 9

ability to make a decision for yourself about your own 10

safety and well-being. And so, that needs to be supported 11

and really circles back for me to the vital importance of 12

Canada fully implementing Shannon’s Dream. It is 13

atrocious to me that we still have a two-tiered education 14

system where First Nations kids are getting substandard 15

schooling, substandard buildings, and very often not 16

access to culturally based and linguistically based 17

education. 18

So without that, it’s hard to imagine how 19

First Nations girls on reserve are going to be able to 20

have the type of education that they need to be able to be 21

-- achieve their dreams and to become financially 22

independent. So all of this stuff is related. 23

Then the other kind of sub-recommendation 24

is for women who have experienced the violence, provide 25

PANEL 2


protection and support for them and their children to 1

reduce exposure to violence and reduce femicide. So that 2

is an important piece too. Again, as a recognition of 3

violence beyond the person who’s directly affected. 4

And to recognize that children in 5

particular, who witness domestic violence, or are in 6

situational or family context. And we need to remember 7

that in Indigenous societies the family we’re talking 8

about is often an extended family, so not a nuclear 9

family. That they have to be part of the approach, a 10

wholistic approach of being able to prevent that and 11

respond to it. 12

And the final one is: 13

“Provide information, education, and appropriate punitive 14

arrangements for men who commit violence against women.” 15

(As read) 16

And when I’m talking about punitive, I 17

don’t think here we’re implying that everybody should be 18

thrown into jail. But certainly, there is a need to hold 19

people responsible for their conduct. 20

Because responsibility implies that you 21

have actually learned, first of all, that you appreciate 22

that what you did was not okay. That you have learned 23

what you’ve done, not from a self-defined concept of what 24

the harm was, but that you have been open to hearing the 25

PANEL 2


harm as experienced by those who are affected by it. And 1

that you have put in place either through your own self-2

agency, or through guidance from Elders or service 3

providers, mechanisms to ensure that you do not do it 4

again. And it’s only after that that I think an apology 5

is warranted. 6

And this is where I think too many states 7

miss those first few steps. They go to apology without 8

having done the learning and that’s why the Spirit Bear 9

plan is so important. I think we need to implement that, 10

because without that, I don’t think states -- I think 11

states will continue to replicate the same types of 12

behaviours we’ve seen in the past on inequalities for 13

kids. 14

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you, Cindy, 15

for explaining the report to us. Chief Commissioner and 16

Commissioners, during the last hearing on July 11th we put 17

in 21 Exhibits, but I would ask that this be tendered as 18

an exhibit to this hearing. The Just Societies Health 19

Equality and Dignified Lives, executive summary. 20

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Yes, 21

Exhibit 24 will be Just Societies, Health Equity and 22

Dignified Lives by the Pan-American Health Organization 23

2018. 24

--- Exhibit 24: 25

PANEL 2


“Just Societies: Health Equity and 1

Dignified Lives: Executive Summary of 2

the Commission of the Pan American 3

Health Organization on Equity and 4

Health Inequalities in the Americas,” 5

Pan American Health Organization 2018, 6

ISBN: 978-92-75-12021-7 (76 pages) 7

Witness: Dr. Cindy Blackstock 8

Counsel: Christa Big Canoe, Commission 9

Counsel 10

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: I would also, if I 11

may, please, just in terms of a housekeeping matter, there 12

were -- there are two other reports today that Dr. 13

Blackstock will be speaking to. And, just for ease of 14

reference, it is on consent of Commission counsel and the 15

witness that we put in two other reports that Dr. 16

Blackstock will answer questions in cross-examination for. 17

The first is Safe with Intervention: The Report of the 18

Expert Panel on the Deaths of Children and Youth in 19

Residential Placements, September 2018. 20

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Exhibit 21

25 is Safe with Intervention: The Report of the Expert 22

Panel on the Deaths of Children and Youth in Residential 23

Placements, September 2018. 24

--- Exhibit 25: 25

PANEL 2


“Safe with Intervention: The Report of 1

the Expert Panel on the Deaths of 2

Children and Youth in Residential 3

Placements,” September 2018 (86 pages) 4



Counsel 7

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, there is one 8

more report that a party with standing has requested, and 9

Commission counsel is consenting to put in that Dr. 10

Blackstock is comfortable answering questions on. The 11

report is entitled, “I Want to Grow Up in My Community: A 12

Review of the Child and Family Services Act”, and it was 13

for the NWT Standing Committee on Social Programs. It is 14

actually authored by Dr. Blackstock. 15

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: 16

Certainly. Exhibit 26 is I Want to Grow Up in My 17

Community: A Review of the Child and Family Services Act, 18

NWT Standing Committee on Social Programs 2010. 19

--- Exhibit 26: 20

Advisory report “I Want to Grow Up in 21

My Community: A Review of the Child 22

and Family Services Act,” by Cindy 23

Blackstock for the Northwest 24

Territories Committee on Social 25

PANEL 2


Programs, April 27, 2010 (28 pages) 1


Counsel: Caroline Wawzonek, Native 3

Women’s Association of Northwest 4

Territories 5

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, at this point, 6

we won’t be addressing those reports. I would like to 7

return to Dr. Blackstock’s recommendations. Now, just for 8

reference of the parties with standing, included in Dr. 9

Blackstock’s summary were those listed recommendations. I 10

have provided them to the Commissioners and to Dr. 11

Blackstock as a single sheet. This is not on our list of 12

exhibits from the June 11th testimony, and I would like to 13

request they be made an exhibit. It is titled, 14

“Recommendations by Dr. Cindy Blackstock”. 15

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Yes. 16

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, they are the 17

same. 18

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Exhibit 19

27, Recommendations by Dr. Cindy Blackstock. 20

--- Exhibit 27: 21

Recommendations by Dr. Cindy 22

Blackstock (one page) 23



PANEL 2


Counsel 1

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, this, Cindy, 2

is where I would actually like to turn our attention to, 3

and I have a copy here for you. These are recommendations 4

that you actually made and drafted; is that correct? 5


MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Yes. And, I just 7

would like to invite you the opportunity, because we 8

didn’t have as much time previously, to go over some of 9

these or to highlight what you believe is important in the 10

number -- you have provided eight recommendations 11

specifically to our -- to the Commissioners of the 12

National Inquiry, and I want to give you the opportunity 13

to, sort of, maybe add some more details to them for us. 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Sure. I will begin 15

with the first one where I really think it is a false 16

metric to really try to make your goal reducing the number 17

of children in care. And, I spoke to this last time. It 18

is not because it is not a worthy goal that we don’t want 19

to focus on that. It is because it can be done in so many 20

artificial ways that don’t approve the health of 21

Indigenous families or the children. That is what worries 22

me about it. 23

I have seen governments reduce the number 24

of children in care in a whole variety of way things by 25

PANEL 2


limiting the number -- range of the definitions of 1

maltreatment, by reducing the age of children that are in 2

the population of those who are captured. That is not 3

what we are after. I think that really what we should be 4

measuring or focusing our efforts on is ensuring healthy 5

families. 6

The other piece around that is I think the 7

whole idea that we, as -- certainly, for me, the reason I 8

have spent my life advocating for First Nations 9

communities to be able to take over care for their 10

children is because we want to do a better job. It is not 11

enough to just take it over and return all of these kids 12

back with -- into unhealthy situations. We have a higher 13

responsibility to these children. And so, I think it is 14

very, very important that we put all measures in place to 15

ensure the health of these families, and that will, by 16

nature or in a positive way, reduce the numbers of 17

children in care. 18

Community-based plans. So, when we talk 19

about colonialism, I think one of the biggest damages of 20

colonialism was taking away the ability of some First 21

Nations, Métis and Inuit communities to dream for 22

themselves. What is that collective vision of what a 23

healthy child is in that distinct culture? Because 24

without knowing that at a communal level, then you can’t 25

PANEL 2


really build towards that and it doesn’t create the 1

opportunity for an alternative that is different than what 2

we are doing right now. 3

And so, that is why we really encourage a 4

Touchstones of Hope process or other processes that allow 5

communities to do that collective reclaiming of what a 6

healthy child is and develop holistic visions of healthy 7

children. Not just child welfare visions, but things that 8

would touch on child and maternal health, that touch on 9

addictions, that touch on juvenile justice, that touch on 10

culture and language and education. A very holistic 11

vision. 12

The other inequalities? Like, that has got 13

to stop; you know? I think that it is one of the great 14

tragedies of our country that after 152 years, racial 15

discrimination continues to be used by various levels of 16

government as a fiscal restraint measure. It is appalling 17

to me. 18

And, I think the evidence is overwhelming 19

about the hardships of inequalities, and it is also 20

overwhelming that the governments can afford to end them 21

and that they have the solutions to end them. They have 22

just chosen not to. They have just chosen to put other 23

priorities ahead of the children. And, I think unless we 24

fix this, nothing else will really make a difference. 25

PANEL 2


Because even if you have a good community vision of 1

children and families, without the resources to be able to 2

do it, it is never going to become materialized; right? 3

A substantive equality lens. And, this is 4

something that the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has 5

reinforced and that Justice Frankfurter from the U.S. 6

Supreme Court once said. He said, “You know, the greatest 7

inequality is the equal treatment of unequals.” We cannot 8

fall into the trap of having treated Indigenous children 9

in this country so unfairly, so unjustly, so unequally for 10

152 years, and then all of a sudden proclaim that it will 11

be remedied if we treat them just the same as every other 12

kid, because they are dealing with those multigenerational 13

inequalities and traumas that have been handed down to 14

them. So, we have to look at it from a substantive 15

equality point of view. 16

And, that includes looking at it from the 17

best interest of the child, but not best interest of the 18

child as a -- from a Western perspective, but the best 19

interest of the child as would be defined by a First 20

Nations, Métis or Inuit perspective. And, in that regard, 21

the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, 22

general comment 11, provides us with a framework to be 23

able to interpret best interest of the child within an 24

Indigenous lens. 25

PANEL 2


The other piece is that I think there has 1

been way too much focus on the symptoms of colonialism and 2

of the inequalities. If we want to get at the reasons why 3

there are so many First Nations kids that get into care 4

and actually reduce that, we know we have to go after the 5

causal factors. And, that means that we need to see a far 6

greater focus in social work training, interventions and 7

in investments on -- to deal with poverty, to deal with 8

the inadequate housing and the lack of housing that is 9

available, and to also deal with addictions and the mental 10

health issues underlying addictions. 11

Unless we deal with those things and truly 12

embrace them, not just from a program perspective, but 13

importantly, too, at a community perspective -- my friend, 14

Terry Cross who used to run the National Indian Child 15

Welfare Association in the U.S. said this. He said, “You 16

know, self-government isn’t just signing an agreement. 17

That’s the easy part. Self-government is when we embrace 18

what hurts.” 19

So, what are we prepared to do in our own 20

communities and how do we enable those systems so that we 21

do put in place measures that get at addictions and 22

reducing and eliminating addictions in our own communities 23

and the factors that contribute to them? There needs to 24

be a coordination between prevention services and these 25

PANEL 2


specific drivers. If you don’t have that stuff 1

coordinated, then you can do a lot of busy work without 2

actually making a significant difference for families. 3

And, services for children to promote their 4

success and wellness need to be augmented. This is just -5

- you know, I think sometimes we pathologize these kids, 6

right, without thinking about the fact that they need to 7

have fun; right? They need to have some joy in their 8

lives. They need to be able to go and play hockey. They 9

need to be able to, you know, listen to music. They need 10

to be able to do whatever makes them -- their life joyful. 11

And so, we need to take a more holistic vision of children 12

and really enable those other parts of their lives that 13

allows them to live a healthy childhood. 14

I include here two research goals on 15

longitudinal studies, because we know so little about 16

child maltreatment in Canada. We have the Canadian 17

Incidence Study on child maltreatment, and I used to be 18

part of the research team on that. But, all that does is 19

measure what happens from the report -- a child 20

maltreatment report from the time its made to the time 21

that someone disposes of the actual intake and decides 22

what is going to happen for the child. 23

We have zero information, other than the 24

study I did in 2009, on what happens to kids once they are 25

PANEL 2


in care. And, this, kind of, relates to one of the 1

exhibits that will be put to me later on the Ontario 2

study, where we find that, you know, kids in care in that 3

particular study, and albeit these are high needs kids, 4

all 12 of them, experienced -- or 10 of them, I think. 5

Experienced an average of 12 placements each; right? 6

So, the question for me on child welfare 7

has always been, when we remove a child -- and I do 8

believe that some First Nations kids need to be in care. 9

I absolutely believe that. I am not a utopian thinker. 10

But, I do think that we have to undertake a promise to 11

them to give them a better life from which they came, and 12

I think that is where we fail; right? Somehow when we 13

remove the kids, we are not continuing that sense of being 14

able to enable them to live the dignified life we talked 15

about in the PAHO report. 16

The one that is not on here, that I would 17

like to actually put top is the Spirit Bear Plan, because 18

unless governments reform themselves in a significant way, 19

not just by tinkering around the edges, but by actually 20

undertaking an independent evaluation, independent 360 21

degree evaluation, of themselves to identify and remediate 22

any vestiges of colonial philosophy, policies and 23

practices, they will continue to pile up on the hopes and 24

dreams of our kids. 25

PANEL 2


And, just to give you a very current 1

example. When the tribunal issued its ruling on January 2

26, 2016, it -- there was welcome by Minister Bennett and 3

Minister Raybould-Wilson. It took five non-compliance 4

orders and the tribunal still has jurisdiction over the 5

complaint, so further orders may follow, for Canada to 6

begin to come into compliance. And, in those five non-7

compliance orders, there are at least 14 occasions where 8

the tribunal references what it calls the old mindset. 9

And so, what Canada was doing was proclaiming itself 10

reformed without having done the work to actually reform 11

itself; right? It needs to have that independent view. 12

And then the other piece around the Spirit 13

Bear Plan that I think is important to First Nations, but 14

-- you know, and I leave it to the Inuit and Métis 15

communities to say whether this is important to them, but 16

I would suggest it probably is, is to clash out all of the 17

inequalities, housing, water, early childhood education, 18

children’s mental health, what does that global picture 19

look like? And then develop a comprehensive public 20

targeted plan to remediate those inequalities in time 21

frames that are sensitive to children’s development. 22

Because the process for the last 152 years has not worked, 23

and the process that has been used the past 152 years is, 24

let’s deal with it one program at a time and one drop at a 25

PANEL 2


time without ever achieving full equality. 1

And then the next government will say, now 2

we are doing good first steps. The previous group did not 3

do it, but we are making good first steps. Well, good 4

first steps is not the answer that First Nations children 5

deserve. No other child in this country is asked to deal 6

with public service discrimination in order to subsidize 7

other aims of the federal state or the provincial 8

territory and state, and First Nations children should not 9

be there. 10

It is absolutely unacceptable to me. There 11

is no research basis for it, there is no moral basis for 12

it, there is no legislative basis for it. It is simply 13

the old mindset piling up on the hopes and dreams of 14

thousands of kids. And, if you make one recommendation, I 15

think that is the one you should make. 16

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, Cindy, the 17

Spirit Bear Plan, it is actually available and is a tool 18

that the public can actually look at. 19


MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Not just as a 21

Commission, not just parties with standing and the 22

organizations they represent, but any citizen can go to 23

the First Nations Caring Society webpage and find a whole 24

host of tools, right, that give them, empower them to have 25

PANEL 2


ideas, how they can contribute to being part of solutions, 1

including reviewing the Spirit Bear Plan, is that true? 2

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: That is true. And, 3

one of the things that the Caring Society -- for those of 4

you who do not know, we are really teeny tiny; right? 5

Now, we have two -- we are up to two full-time staff. So, 6

this is, like, big for us. 7

But, one of the founding principles for the 8

Caring Society is, despite the fact that we are small, 9

despite the fact we do not have any government funding, we 10

refuse to charge people for information that can benefit 11

children. We think that all information should be 12

available regardless of whether you are a member, 13

regardless of your income. And so, if you go to our 14

website, you are going to find all kinds of free 15

information that is accessible, including on the 16

Touchstones of Hope around that collective visioning, 17

around all kinds of educational tools that you are able to 18

use around Jordan’s Principle and other things. 19

The only thing we ask is that you not 20

charge for it if you are going to use it, because it is 21

available for free and that is something that is really 22

important to us, is that -- you know, being able to 23

improve childhood should not cost money. And so, you can 24

find the Spirit Bear Plan and other things on the website. 25

PANEL 2


MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, that is 1

helpful, because I think we often hear people say, well, 2

how can I help just as an average citizen? And, one of 3

the things I often say is you can learn more. And so, 4

having those resources available so any Canadians that 5

have questions or want to understand these issues that you 6

are talking with such expertise about -- it is in plain 7

language, it is in simple language and thee are good 8

recommendations for everyone to see. So, I did not want 9

to just give you a plug, I wanted to point out that there 10

is information available for public to access and 11

understand this issue much better. 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. And, we 13

actually have seven free ways for anyone to make a 14

difference and under two minutes on our website. So, go 15

check it out at FNCaringSociety.com. 16

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Chief Commissioner 17

and Commissioners, this actually concludes my examination-18

in-chief. We are prepared, and so are the parties with 19

standing, to immediately go into cross-examination. And, 20

with your permission, I would like to proceed calling the 21

list. 22

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Yes, 23

please. 24

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you. For 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (DUNN) 39

cross-examination, the first party that Commission Counsel 1

is inviting up to ask questions of Dr. Blackstock is the 2

Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Manitoba 3

Coalition. Ms. Catherine Dunn will have 6.5 minutes. 4

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CATHERINE DUNN: 5

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: Dr. Blackstock, my 6

name is Catherine Dunn and I am representing the Manitoba 7

Coalition of Murdered and Missing Indigenous Girls and 8

Women, many of whom represent families and survivors 9

particularly of the child welfare system and other systems 10

that are imposed upon them. 11

And, I have six minutes to encapsulate your 12

incontrovertible evidence, but I will try. I think what I 13

understand that you are saying is that, as early as 1904, 14

a federal government employee, Dr. Bryce, determined that 15

through his research of the Indian residential school 16

system, two out of three residential school children -- 17

Indigenous residential school children were dying, is that 18

fair? 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Dr. Bryce began his 20

study in 1904, it was published in 1907. What he said is 21

about 25 percent of children were dying each year. For 22

the one school for which there were complete death 23

records, two out of three children would be dead by the 24

time that they were 16. 25

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MS. CATHERINE DUNN: And, Dr. Bryce 1

determined that, in order to address that issue, 2

$15,000.00 was required from Canada and, as well, it was 3

important to return the care of children to Indigenous 4

people, is that fair? 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: What Dr. Bryce said 6

is that -- he noted that there were dramatic health 7

inequalities and public funding for First Nations people, 8

then called Indian people, as compared to non-Indigenous 9

folks. And, one of his key recommendations was to even 10

out that inequality, and then to implement some practical 11

reforms, for example not putting sick kids in with healthy 12

kids. 13

What Brian Titley who wrote a book about 14

Duncan Campbell Scott called A Narrow Vision, estimated 15

that the cost of Dr. Bryce’s reforms would have been that 16

$10,000.00 to $15,000.00 figure that you are estimating. 17

And, had those reforms been implemented and the equity 18

provided back in 1907, there is good evidence to suggest 19

that many of the children who died in residential schools 20

would not have died. 21

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: And, Dr. Bryce called 22

that a national crime and you, many years later, proved 23

that it was an international crime, what was happening to 24

Canadians in the child welfare system, isn’t that fair? 25

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DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Dr. Bryce did call 1

it a national crime. And, in fact, one of the things I 2

think I spoke to last time is that one of his 3

contemporary, Sam Hume Blake, who is a founder -- co-4

founder at Blake’s law firm upon reading Dr. Bryce’s 5

findings writes that infamous paragraph that John Milloy 6

quotes in his book, A National Crime, that, “In that 7

Canada fails to obviate the preventable causes of death 8

that brings itself into unpleasant nearness with 9

manslaughter.” 10

What I was able to prove is at the Canadian 11

Human Rights Tribunal is that what Canada’s actions are in 12

terms of the inequities in child welfare are racial 13

discrimination. We haven’t been able to prove that it is 14

criminal -- does it reach the criminal standard. But, in 15

fact, it is a breach of national law and a breach of 16

international law as well. 17

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: And, this breach of 18

international law has been in place for Canada since 2016. 19

They have been called out for their failure to deal with 20

racial discrimination on five occasions and as recently as 21

October? 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: February of 2018 is 23

when the Tribunal issued its last order. 24

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: All right. And, that 25

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is appalling. 1

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I agree. 2

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: Provinces of Canada, 3

and in particular Manitoba, do you know whether they have, 4

as a government, series of groups or the territories 5

stated to Canada that your conduct is appalling? That we, 6

as provinces, and we, as territories, will not put up with 7

being internationally shamed with respect to our 8

Indigenous children? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I don’t know if they 10

used those exact words. But, in the Manitoba legislature, 11

there was a debate after, I believe the second non-12

compliance order, so this would have put it in the fall, 13

early winter of 2016. The Manitoba legislature passed a 14

motion condemning Canada for its failure to implement the 15

January 2016 decision by the Canadian Human Rights 16

Tribunal. It was a member of the legislature, Wab Kinew, 17

who put that to the floor of the legislature and, to my 18

knowledge, it passed unanimously. 19

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: And, as a result of 20

that legislature resolution -- and you say that the child 21

welfare system in Manitoba has changed since you were last 22

testifying here professionally, not -- with respect to the 23

Phoenix Sinclair Inquiry? 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: What I can say -- I 25

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don’t know if it is a result of the -- are you asking me 1

if it is a change as a result of that motion or a change 2

as a result of the Inquiry? 3

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: I am just wondering if 4

there is a change --- 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: In general? 6

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: --- since you have 7

been -- last been here testifying at the Phoenix Sinclair 8

Inquiry. 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, I think one of 10

the things that has changed, thanks to the Tribunal, is 11

that there has been -- they released a funding of actuals 12

at least for some of the First Nations agencies, so that 13

is starting to happen. And, the other important 14

development is the implementation of Jordan’s Principle. 15

And, I just want to recognize Madeline Gamble in here, 16

because not only is she an elder, but she was Jordan’s 17

caseworker. So, that has made some significant progress. 18

There is still more work to do. But, in regard to the 19

more substantive recommendations of the Inquiry, in my 20

view, they still remain outstanding. 21

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: And, is it -- it is 22

proven that the Indian school residential system was a 23

policy to kill the Indian in the child; right? 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, actually, no 25

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one ever said “kill the Indian in the child”. It was 1

often described to Duncan Campbell Scott, but incorrectly 2

so. But, I think the -- it is irrefutable that the aim of 3

the whole thing was to eliminate any kind of Indigenous 4

identity amongst the children. And, the Truth and 5

Reconciliation Commission, I think, lays out a compelling 6

and irrefutable case that Canada’s aim was to eliminate 7

Indian people via the assimilation of their children. 8

And, we get that and the Prime Minister’s apology 9

acknowledges that. 10

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: And, that is still the 11

case with the child welfare system? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I would say it is 13

still the case in some instances in the child welfare 14

system. I wouldn’t -- I am very cautious about 15

overgeneralizing. I think that we -- certainly I have 16

spoken with First Nations, Métis and Inuit kids who have 17

had good experiences in the child welfare system, some 18

families who have good experiences in the child welfare 19

system. 20

But, I am very concerned about the 21

overrepresentation of First Nations, Métis and Inuit 22

children. When I see overrepresentation that, to me, 23

manifests -- is a manifestation of structural 24

discrimination and a failure of provincial, territorial 25

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and federal governments to implement the many good 1

solutions that have been put forward to them over the 2

decades to recalibrate child welfare so it actually meets 3

the needs of these families. 4

MS. CATHERINE DUNN: Thank you very much, 5

Dr. Blackstock. 6

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you. Next, 7

we would like to invite up the Assembly of First Nations. 8

Mr. Stuart Wuttke has six-and-a-half minutes. 9

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. STUART WUTTKE: 10

MR. STUART WUTTKE: Good morning, Dr. 11

Blackstock. My name is Stuart Wuttke. I am with the 12

Assembly of First Nations. 13

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Good morning. 14

MR. STUART WUTTKE: You brought up the 15

Canadian Incidence studies of neglect and abuse of 2003 16

and 2008. In those studies, would you agree that the most 17

common form of apprehension of First Nation children is 18

due to neglect? 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. And, there are 20

two sub-forms of neglect. So, one is failure to 21

supervise, which can easily be remediated with funding; 22

right? Having proper early childhood programs and that 23

type of thing. And then the other is physical neglect, so 24

that is the inability of families to meet the basic needs 25

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of their children. So, things like, you know, housing and 1

water. And, that also could be dealt with a lot with just 2

providing equitable opportunities for those families. 3

MR. STUART WUTTKE: Thank you. And, also 4

in the same study, it noted that when it comes to sexual 5

abuse in the home, that the actual -- the First Nation 6

rate was a bit lower than the Canadian rate. I think it 7

was 2 percent for First Nation families and 3 percent for 8

Canadian families; is that true? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. That was for 10

the reported cases. 11

MR. STUART WUTTKE: Yes. 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: By far, the major 13

issue for First Nations kids is the neglect/maltreatment 14

category. 15

MR. STUART WUTTKE: So, in terms of the 16

process of removing children, would it be safe to say 17

that, in terms of neglect and poverty, that a lot of First 18

Nation children are being removed from their loving 19

parents, their loving homes, their siblings when they 20

don’t need to be? 21

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, I think that 22

certainly was a contention that we put to the Canadian 23

Human Rights Tribunal is that what equitable resources -- 24

and when I use that word “resources”, I am just not saying 25

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child welfare resources, but investments in housing, 1

investments in water, and sanitation, electrical power, 2

that that could substantially reduce the risk to kids and, 3

therefore, reduce the numbers going into care. 4

MR. STUART WUTTKE: All right, thank you. 5

And, you have also provided evidence on the findings of 6

the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal in the child welfare 7

case. I understand that a considerable amount of work was 8

done by the Assembly of First Nations and the First 9

Nations Child and Family Caring Society starting from the 10

NPR reports in 2000. 11


MR. STUART WUTTKE: Can you speak about 13

that? 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Sure. So, one of 15

the first approaches that the Assembly of First Nations 16

and the Caring Society took was really to work with 17

government to try to identify these shortfalls and then 18

how they could be fixed. And so, I was just -- I guess, 19

my own role, I became involved in about 1997 in what 20

became the committee that oversaw the Joint National 21

Policy Review. 22

There were First Nations child welfare 23

experts from all parts of the country. The Assembly of 24

First Nations co-chaired along with the Government of 25

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Canada that also had representatives. That yielded the 1

Joint National Policy Review in 2000 that had 17 2

recommendations for change, and then pin holed the 3

shortfall at 78 cents on a dollar for a First Nations 4

child versus a dollar for a non-Indigenous kid, and that 5

did not take into account the higher needs of Indigenous 6

families. 7

Canada commended the report, but never 8

implemented it. And, one of the things that it sadly had 9

was a mechanism to get rid of jurisdictional disputes. 10

So, had that been implemented in 2000, we would have not 11

seen the sad outcome for Jordan River Anderson. 12

But, then, Canada wanted to do a second 13

report, so we did, and we got 20 of the best experts, five 14

economists that cost out all the inequalities, and that 15

rendered the Wanday (phonetic) series of reports in 2005. 16

Very detailed recommendations, pigeon hole then the 17

shortfall, particularly in prevention services as it being 18

70 cents on the dollar compared to non-Indigenous kids, 19

again, not taking into any account the higher needs of 20

Indigenous children. And, the result of that was Canada 21

agreed with it and didn’t implement it. So, we felt we 22

didn’t have any other choice, and that is why we filed a 23

human rights complaint. 24

MR. STUART WUTTKE: Thank you. And, in the 25

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child welfare case before the Tribunal, the case itself 1

addressed the discrimination of funding that Canada 2

provides to First Nation child welfare agencies. And, 3

some of those were -- that were noted were a lack of 4

funding for prevention, a lack of funding for key elements 5

of (indiscernible) such as salaries for child welfare 6

staff, cost of living and capital infrastructure, 7

information technology. So there's a whole host of areas 8

where First Nation agencies are being underfunded compared 9

to others. 10

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yeah. So it was -- 11

the underfunding was cross-cutting, and the most serious 12

manifestation of that is, as you point out, the lack of an 13

ability to provide the type of preventative services to 14

keep children safely in their homes, or alternatively, for 15

those kids who are in care, to be able to work with 16

families and address the risks so the children can go 17

home. That was the most serious outcome. 18

MR. STUART WUTTKE: M'hm. Thank you. And 19

also, prior to filing the human rights complaint, the 20

federal government was well aware of its damaging policies 21

on First Nations communities. Is that correct? 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. They were 23

sitting at the table as we did the National Policy Review 24

and the Wen-De reports. They were participants in those 25

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studies. And not only that, they had in their hands a 1

whole series of reports that were commissioned by the 2

Department of Indian Affairs itself documenting these 3

shortfalls going back as early as 1948 with the Canadian 4

Association of Social Workers, but then also reiterated in 5

1967 by a guy named George Caldwell who handed in a report 6

that dealt with the lack of funding for prevention 7

services. 8

MR. STUART WUTTKE: All right. Thank you. 9

And I'll give you -- the last question is multi-pronged. 10

But in its finding that Canada is discriminating against 11

First Nation children, the Tribunal wrote about 12

similarities between the Indian residential school system 13

and also the child welfare. 14

In your view, is Canada repeating its 15

colonial way of history -- or colonial way of decision 16

making and basically repeating the same mistakes in the 17

past? And with respects to Jordan's Principle, can you 18

comment on how provinces now are using Jordan's Principles 19

[sic] to deny services to First Nation communities? 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So on a 21

first, the answer is yes. I think -- and that's why I was 22

such a big proponent of the Spirit Bear Plan, because 23

unless they deal with reform themselves they're going to 24

continue to make those colonial mistakes and replicate the 25

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harms from residential schools. 1

On a second, no province or territory has 2

adopted a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal compliant 3

definition of Jordan's Principle, and so too often what 4

we're seeing -- and I should say that the Caring Society 5

often gets contacted by families or by professionals who 6

have tried to report Jordan's Principle cases and then 7

been denied -- and what we've seen is that the provinces 8

are kind of taking the position well the feds now are on 9

the hook for Jordan's Principle so we're not going to step 10

up to the plate; we're just going to try and see if the 11

feds can pick it up. Which is totally contrary to the 12

whole issue of Jordan's Principle. 13

Jordan died in that hospital because the 14

Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada failed 15

to put his best interests first. So I would urge all 16

provinces and territories to implement and fully adopt a 17

CHRT compliant definition of Jordan's Principle and to do 18

so and implement it in tandem with First Nations. 19

MR. STUART WUTTKE: Thank you, 20

Dr. Blackstock. My time is up. Thank you. 21


we would like to invite up Pauktuutit and Partners. 23

Ms. Symes will have six-and-a-half minutes. 24

MS. BETH SYMES: Oh, there's even a timer. 25

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I didn't even see that before. 1

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. BETH SYMES 2

Good morning, Dr. Blackstock. My name is 3

Beth Symes. I represent Pauktuutit, the Inuit Women of 4

Canada, the Inuit Women of Labrador, Saturviit, which are 5

the Inuit Women of Nunavik, the Ottawa Inuit Children's 6

Centre, and the Manitoba Inuit Association. 7

Yesterday in the questioning, my colleague, 8

Rachel Dutton, said that the Census Canada 2016 said that 9

there were 315 Inuit living in Winnipeg and that 20 of 10

them were Inuit children in care. 11

So I want to move to a higher level, and in 12

Quebec City, Ellen Gabriel was asked there have been so 13

many reports and recommendations that have been put on the 14

shelf, and she was asked as an activist, how do we make 15

government move on these issues? 16

And Ellen Gabriel answered, "You take them 17

to court". And she said, "That's the only thing that I 18

can think", and she went on to say that, "governments of 19

all three levels, federal, provincial, territorial, and 20

municipal, totally ignore the reports and recommendations 21

about Indigenous people and Indigenous issues." And she 22

said, "It's about political will", and she said, "if the 23

leaders of this nations are only looking at the next 24

election, then Indigenous people and their issues will 25

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once again be on the bottom of their priorities, and this 1

will continue and remain within Canada". 2

As a litigation warrior, Dr. Blackstock, 3

I'd like to explore with you the organizational costs to 4

the Caring Society and the cost to you personally of being 5

a litigation warrior. Now, by this I mean the costs, for 6

example, of your staff. Now, you said today that you have 7

full time –- you now have full time staff of two. I think 8

your website says you have seven. 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yeah. 10

MS. BETH SYMES: So it's a very small 11

staff; is that correct? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: That's correct. 13

MS. BETH SYMES: And what's your budget? 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Up until this last 15

year, we operated on less than half a million dollars a 16

year. 17

MS. BETH SYMES: Less than $500,000 a year? 18


MS. BETH SYMES: Okay. So you filed the 20

human rights complaint in 2006. Before you filed that 21

complaint, because it was an amazing filing, how many 22

months, or perhaps even years, did the Caring Society 23

devote to gathering the information that you could put 24

into the complaint? 25

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Cr-Ex (SYMES) 54

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: The complaint was 1

actually filed in 2007 --- 2

MS. BETH SYMES: Okay. 3

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: --- but we had -- 4

and we had kind of created the Caring Society as an 5

informal network in 1999. It became an incorporated 6

society shortly thereafter. It was that entire period. 7

Because honestly, our goal was to get the 8

government to cooperate because if they cooperated then 9

help would get to the families and the children far sooner 10

than if we litigated. But what was not negotiable to me 11

is that help needed to go to those kids and those 12

families, and so if it wasn't going to be done 13

voluntarily, then litigation was the next step. 14

MS. BETH SYMES: Now we know that the last 15

decision, which is February of 2018, and as you say, they 16

still have jurisdiction over non-compliance, but in that 17

time, from filing the complaint until today, what 18

percentage of your time has been devoted to this piece of 19

litigation? 20

MS. BETH SYMES: I would say more broadly 21

as the cause --- 22

MS. BETH SYMES: Yes? 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: --- I would say 24

almost 100 percent of my time. I do teach every once in a 25

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while, so maybe if we're going to be on the cautious side, 1

90 percent of my time. 2

But I -- when I say 90 percent of my time, 3

I don't work 8 hours a day. I work far more than that. 4

So it is really -- and I don't want anyone to feel sorry 5

for me for that. This is a -- this is an honour for me, 6

and a privilege for me, and a duty for me, but it has 7

taken substantial personal effort. 8

MS. BETH SYMES: In fact, this type of 9

litigation can be all consuming for organizations, such as 10

the Caring Society? 11


MS. BETH SYMES: Now I want to go back to 13

Ellen Gabriel's answer and get your point, is that -- sue. 14

That was her strategy. Take them to court. 15

Do you agree that that is the only strategy 16

left for Indigenous organizations? 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think it's been 18

the only strategy we've seen has proven effective. 19

Certainly, Canada has responded only to the orders when 20

its taken action; it has not responded to recommendations. 21

That's why I'm hoping to see them adopt and implement the 22

Spirit Bear Plan so that we don't have to litigate to be 23

able to get them to do the right thing for First Nations, 24

Métis, or Inuit children. That they do it when the 25

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preponderance of evidence suggests that it's the right 1

thing to do. 2

MS. BETH SYMES: So Dr. Blackstock, Ellen 3

Gabriel said that we have to create a political will. In 4

order to make a significant difference on the lives of 5

Indigenous women and girls, we have to create political 6

will. 7

Other than litigation, how can that be 8

done? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: One of the things 10

that we do at the Caring Society is reach out to non-11

Indigenous kids and their families by really engaging with 12

them in the joint struggle to achieve equity for First 13

Nations children in this country. We had something called 14

Have a Heart Day, where kids send valentines to the 15

elected officials so First Nations kids can have an 16

equitable chance to grow up safely in their families, get 17

a good education, be healthy and proud of who they are. 18

And, children from the Inuit Children’s Centre 19

participated that day, so we, kind of, expanded it to 20

include all Indigenous children. 21

But, I think we need a social movement on 22

par with what happened in the civil rights movement. We 23

need to continue to pile up the weight of this inequality 24

and its transgression, not just against Indigenous 25

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peoples, but against the moral fabric of the country to a 1

point where people cannot accept it anymore. 2

MS. BETH SYMES: I thank you for your moral 3

courage in being a litigation warrior. 4


we would like to invite up the New Brunswick Aboriginal 6

Peoples Council. Ms. Leblanc will have 6.5 minutes. 7

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. AMANDA LEBLANC: 8

MS. AMANDA LEBLANC: Thank you. Good 9

morning. My name is Amanda Leblanc, I am the interim 10

Chief and president of the New Brunswick Aboriginal 11

Peoples Council. We represent all the rights bearing 12

Aboriginal people in New Brunswick who reside off-reserve, 13

as well as others who have migrated to our province in 14

terms of access to programs and services. The 15

organization has existed for over 47 years, we have been 16

doing this for quite a while, advocating for the rights of 17

those who have been disenfranchised, various reasons, loss 18

of status due to sexual discrimination, due to forcing 19

either choice of staying in a community or taking an 20

opportunity for education, to have employment, et cetera, 21

et cetera. Preaching to the choir here, I think. 22

I would like to start off by acknowledging 23

your comment to UNDRIP and the importance of Canada 24

actually signing onto that. You made a comment earlier 25

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about connection to land and the importance of that. So, 1

representing those of us who are residing off-reserve and 2

not connected to the Indian Act created communities in our 3

province, we reside on our unseeded traditional 4

territories. As an off-reserve community, we do not have 5

that designated land mass, land base where we can actually 6

go and exercise our rights, which is to simply congregate 7

as a community. We do not have one simple spot for that. 8

I say “we” as a collective. 9

Our organization is extremely lucky whereas 10

we have a spot on a lake, very rural, that we have been, I 11

guess, granted a 100-year lease by the province of New 12

Brunswick to be able to do this. But, the way it came 13

about was actually racism. So, when our leadership at the 14

time went into the room to ask for this, there was a 15

comment made, and it was out of shame that we got it, but 16

regardless we have that. 17

Because of this jurisdictional, I guess, 18

wasteland that off-reserve status and non-status fall 19

within, in terms of who is responsible for us -- and you 20

have alluded to this a couple of times this morning about, 21

it is provincial government or it is federal government. 22

Most recently in the Daniels decision, after 16 years of 23

litigation, it has been proven that it is a federal 24

responsibility, but we access services and programs 25

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through the province. 1

With that, how would you suggest that off-2

reserve communities, in terms of litigation it sounds like 3

is the only option we would have, be able to create 4

programs, services, but more importantly opportunities for 5

spirituality, for access to our cultures and language, 6

things like that, when perhaps we would not have somewhere 7

-- like in New Brunswick, we are extremely lucky where we 8

have this camp, but other organizations and provinces do 9

not have that ability for their constituents. 10

So, how would the off-reserve communities 11

go about forcing the government to recognize the 12

requirement for this and work in collaboration with the 13

provincial governments to actually see it through? 14

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Sorry, before you 15

answer that. Can we stop the time for just one minute? 16

And, just before -- I am going to allow Dr. Blackstock to 17

answer that, but the -- in terms of the expertise that she 18

is here for, you have really broadened out beyond that. 19

So, I am just going to put on the record that we will 20

allow Dr. Blackstock to answer that to the best of her 21

knowledge within the qualification of her expertise. 22

MS. AMANDA LEBLANC: I can clarity it a 23

little bit. 24

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: We can start the 25

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time again. 1

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I personally have 2

lived off-reserve all my life. I lived in the bush 3

mostly. So, going to the reserve was going to a big town 4

for me, right, when I was a little kid. 5

One of the answers, I think, to this is 6

something that has been discussed extensively at the 7

tribunal, is that Canada restricts the provision of child 8

welfare services by First Nations agencies, in terms of 9

what it will fund, to on-reserve only. And, certainly 10

there are many First Nations who take the position that 11

they would like to serve their citizens on- and off-12

reserve, and in many cases, that is very practical because 13

the reserve is just -- abuts that off-reserved community. 14

Where that is possible and practical, I think it should be 15

supported, and that is something that we are having 16

discussions with the Department of Indian Affairs -- I 17

still call them Indian Affairs -- today, that those 18

mandates should be expanded. 19

I think in regards to the PAHO report, I 20

spoke to that earlier, where there needs to be -- states 21

should be obligated to provide access for Indigenous 22

peoples off-reserve, or however you want to call it, 23

living in urban environment, to have access to traditional 24

lands. And so, that is part of the old constellation. 25

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But, if you are asking more generally about 1

litigation strategies and stuff like that, despite having 2

been involved in this, I am a social worker by training, I 3

am not a lawyer by training. 4

MS. AMANDA LEBLANC: I appreciate that. 5

Thank you. Building off the UNDRIP again, it states that 6

Aboriginal people have the right to self-determination and 7

the right for representation. With the current 8

registration system or status system, if you apply, you 9

have to be connected to a reserve community. For those 10

who were disenfranchised and were living third and fourth 11

generation off-reserve and do not necessarily have a 12

connection to those Indian Act created communities, this 13

creates again a jurisdictional wasteland for the children 14

accessing early education. For example yesterday, I 15

mentioned about a Head Start program, the Aboriginal Head 16

Start in urban and northern communities. In New 17

Brunswick, we have one that services the entire off-18

reserve population and currently is only able to take six 19

children. 20

So, with the registration process forcing 21

us to connect to communities that we might not have 22

connection to, what does this look like in terms of -- and 23

you mentioned, and I am glad you mentioned, longitudinal 24

studies, and the necessity of those to show the importance 25

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of programs and such, but also the effects of negative 1

impacts of things like Indian residential school and some 2

of that we are starting to see. How can we practice self-3

determination in a way that is meaningful for our future 4

generations now? 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Okay. So, I am 6

going to break your question into a few parts. So, first 7

of all, you asked about the registered status. I 8

personally do not support the whole colonial Indian Act 9

system of -- by quantum definition. But, I do believe in 10

First Nations determined citizenship about what that 11

means. And, there has not been an enabling environment 12

and legislation or in policy or in government approaches 13

to really be able to support those First Nations 14

citizenship approaches, despite multiple resolutions by 15

the AFN and other bodies. So, I would like to see that 16

change. 17

In terms of self-determination. I think 18

one of the key pieces is that you need to figure out what 19

the vision is; right? What is it that you really want to 20

achieve? What does it look like? And, that is where the 21

Touchstones of Hope comes in, is to be able to really 22

flush that out, about what that would look like, not only 23

for a First Nations on-reserve community if you like, but 24

also for persons living in urban environments, and that 25

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tool has been used in that context, to provide a better 1

sense about what are the holistic types of supports that 2

would provide the best opportunity for children. 3

And, I think it is important to emphasize 4

this point, a very diverse cultural backgrounds often 5

living off-reserve. How can you be able to provide a 6

series of options so that those kids can live in ways that 7

support their cultures, their languages and their 8

ancestor. 9

MS. AMANDA LEBLANC: Thank you very much. 10


CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Excuse 12

me. I have had a couple of requests for a five-minute 13

break, please. 14

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Certainly. So, we 15

will return in five. 16


--- Upon resuming at 10:00 a.m./L'audience est reprise à 18

10h00 19

--- PANEL II, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED 20

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you Chief 21

Commissioner and Commissioners. I note that Ms. Ordyniec 22

is already at the podium, and she will have six-and-a-half 23

minutes on behalf of the Treaty Alliance of Northern 24

Ontario, which is Nishnawbe Aski and Grand Council 25

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Cr-Ex (ORDYNIEC) 64

Treaty 3. 1

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC 2

MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: Good morning, Chief 3

Commissioner and Commissioners. I'd just like to begin by 4

acknowledging the Treaty 1 territory and thanking the 5

people of the territory for a very warm welcome. The 6

sacred items in the room, the prayers, the Elders, the 7

families who are here, it's so nice to see all of the 8

support in the room. 9

Also, Anna Betty Achneepineskum from NAN is 10

here with me today. And the last acknowledgement I'd like 11

to make, and importantly, the 2018 September report, Safe 12

with Intervention, six young people from Nan and one young 13

person from Treaty 3 were the subjects of that report, and 14

I just wanted to acknowledge them. 15

Good morning, Dr. Blackstock. Thank you --16

- 17


MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: --- for your 19

testimony and thank you for your endless and tireless 20

work. 21

As you are aware, NAN joined the Tribunal 22

proceedings in May 2016 as an interested party, and 23

specifically, NAN sought to address the design and 24

implementation of the panel's orders with specific regard 25

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Cr-Ex (ORDYNIEC) 65

to remote and northern communities in Ontario. And in 1

paragraph 348 of the decision, the Tribunal says -- this 2

is the 2018 February decision: 3

"As part of the motion's order, the request that NAN was 4

seeking was a Choose Life order." (As read) 5

And I wonder if you could explain to the 6

Tribunal -- sorry -- to the Commissioners, briefly, what 7

that Choose Life order is and how it speaks to community-8

based programming? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I want to circle 10

back to Jordan's Principle, the Tribunal's original order 11

in 2016 on Jordan's Principle, where it ordered the 12

immediate and full implementation of Jordan's Principle. 13

Canada did not implement the full version of Jordan's 14

Principle. It did nothing until July of 2016, and then 15

adopted a definition that was limited to children with 16

disabilities and short-term illnesses. We, and I believe 17

NAN, disagreed with that definition and pressed for a full 18

definition of Jordan's Principle. 19

During the intervening time, there was a 20

suicide crisis in Wapekeka First Nation, and amongst 21

worries about a suicide pact among young girls. The 22

community did the right thing, which is apply to First 23

Nations Inuit Health Branch for an immediate community-24

based mental health program to support those children and 25

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prevent any deaths by suicide. 1

Canada did not respond to that case in an 2

urgent manner, and sadly, although that request was put in 3

in the fall of 2016, two girls, I believe both Age 12, die 4

of suicide in that community in January of that next year. 5

The Tribunal looked at that particular 6

case, specifically, when it was reviewing the motions for 7

non-compliance on Jordan's Principle, and counsel for NAN 8

was proposing something called the Choose Life. And 9

Choose Life was a phrase chosen by the children and the 10

young people of NAN communities, and really was a 11

reiteration of the importance of community-based models 12

for the prevention and response, not only to suicide, but 13

also to -- more broadly, to mental health issues and to 14

have that conceptualized within the context of those 15

distinct communities. And so they were seeking an order, 16

first of all, that Choose Life would be ordered by the 17

Tribunal, it wouldn't be just an optional intervention. 18

The Tribunal found links in its order in 19

2017, May, between Canada's non-compliance and the 20

preventable deaths of those two girls, and then issued a 21

separate consent order between Canada and between NAN 22

communities that ordered the Choose Life focus, 23

specifically. 24

MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: Thank you. And are 25

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Cr-Ex (ORDYNIEC) 67

you aware of the permanency of the funding for the Choose 1

Life initiative? 2

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I wish I was aware 3

of permanency and funding for Choose Life, but 4

unfortunately, the federal government's position is 5

although they recognize that its obligations, its legal 6

obligations under Jordan's Principle are perpetual unless 7

otherwise changed by law, it is really, in mechanics, only 8

funded these things up until most -– most of the programs 9

until March 31st, 2019. 10

Which places these programs in a very 11

tenuous position, because of course, the situation of 12

young people in NAN communities and in other communities 13

is not going to be remedied by that time, and you need to 14

have a long-term view of these programs so that they 15

continue their important work. But to my understanding, 16

that continues to be unresolved. 17

MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: Thank you. And you 18

would support those programs be continued as permanent? 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I would like to see 20

them not only continue to be permanent, but expanded, and 21

would love to see like programs starting as early as child 22

and maternal health and early childhood so that you're 23

able to put those building blocks in place so that 24

children grow up with a healthy sense of themselves and 25

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Cr-Ex (ORDYNIEC) 68

are less predisposed to mental health issues. 1

MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: Thank you very much 2

for that. In the February 2018 101-page decision, you'd 3

agree that the Tribunal was obviously critical of Canada's 4

continued delay in implementation of the immediate relief? 5


MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: And you would agree 7

that trauma and traumatic experiences have substantial 8

impact on childhood development? 9


MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: Would that be 11

accurate? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. And Dr. Bombay 13

probably testified to that specifically yesterday. 14

MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: So you would agree 15

that there's certain short windows of time that there are 16

key childhood development periods. Is that -- would that 17

be accurate? 18

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. And 19

particularly in the early years, while the brain is really 20

developing at an unprecedented rate, it is really key to 21

be able to support children in healthy development during 22

those years. 23

MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: So we just said that 24

Canada continually delayed implementing immediate relief. 25

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Cr-Ex (ORDYNIEC) 69

What happens to the children who are in care today in the 1

child welfare system when the government continues to fail 2

them by implementing the initiatives and the funding? 3

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think that those 4

children are probably highly predisposed to irremediable 5

harm. Harms that cannot be fixed. That -- and we've seen 6

this through -- I base this on, not only the studies like 7

the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study, in the United 8

States, and the work of Dr. Bombay and others, but also, 9

from what we know about the Sixties Scoop and about 10

residential schools. 11

You know, one day in a life of an adult may 12

not seem like a lot, and especially at my age, you 13

sometimes forget those one days, they seem to roll into 14

long periods of time. But one day in the life of a child 15

can be absolutely significant for them. 16

It can -- that one day, you can put in -- 17

plant seeds for their lifelong healthy development, or you 18

can alternatively, through the denial of compliance with 19

legal orders and the failure to provide for their best 20

interests, plant seeds that will not only create 21

disadvantage for them in their life stage, but across 22

their entire lives. And in fact, we know through 23

epigenetics, predispose the next generation to trauma. 24

MS. KRYSTYN ORDYNIEC: Thank you so much 25

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Cr-Ex (BENTHAM) 70

for your time. 1

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you, 2

Ms. Ordyniec. 3

Next, we would invite up the Battered 4

Women's Support Service. I see that Summer-Rain Bentham 5

will be representing the Battered Women's Support Service, 6

and she will have six-and-a-half minutes. 7

---CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: 8

MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: Good morning. I 9

want to start with acknowledging the Treaty 1 territory 10

that we're gathered on, the Commissioners, the family and 11

survivors who are watching and who are present, and the 12

sacred items in the room, and Dr. Blackstock for her 13

testimony today. 14

My name is Summer-Rain. I am Gitxsan (ph) 15

from Keewanga (ph), and Coast Salish from the Squamish 16

Nation on my father's side. I am not a lawyer and I am 17

acting on behalf of Battered Women's Support Services. 18

Dr. Blackstock, would it be fair to say 19

that based on your testimony today, you would say that 20

violence against women and girls does not take place 21

between two people individually in isolation, but in fact, 22

it's actually a social context and is rooted in the 23

oppression of women? Further to that, that violence 24

against women and girls is the result of a worldview which 25

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Cr-Ex (BENTHAM) 71

supports the rights of men to oppress women, and is fueled 1

by elements like colonization, patriarchy, race, and 2

gender? 3

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yeah. I think that 4

the social and societal conditions and attitudes really 5

provide the context for individual interactions. It's 6

still an individual choice at some level, but what you do 7

is you create a societal situation that predisposes people 8

to make choices that oppress women and expose women to 9

violence. And that's something that needs to change. You 10

can't just do the -- mediate at the individual level; you 11

have to also mediate at the societal level for there to be 12

sustainable and positive change. 13

MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: Thank you. Would 14

you agree that the contemporary inheritance of this 15

colonial history is reflected in the conditions as 16

systemic vulnerability in which all Indigenous people have 17

to live. But, our experience, most accurately, by women 18

and girls, and two-spirited people, and that the systems 19

of extractive industry, education, health care, child 20

welfare and social services, as well as the prison system, 21

are all fraught with racism making the reality of 22

advocating for change on any single front extremely 23

challenging? 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think that it is 25

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Cr-Ex (BENTHAM) 72

important to add some texture into the concept of racism. 1

I am not comfortable saying it applied in all of those 2

different regimes in the same way. I think in many ways 3

what we are dealing with is structural racism. Structural 4

racism that has been reinforced by the failure of various 5

governments to implement the solutions that could lead to 6

a system that better responds to First Nations, Métis and 7

Inuit children’s best interest. 8

And, in that way, what I am suggesting is 9

it is not accidental. It is a conscious choice to do 10

this. They could consciously choose to implement the 11

recommendations, particularly in situations where they 12

tend to appear time, and time, and time again, such as the 13

need to implement more service for prevention. That dates 14

back to 1907. So, when you see it coming up time and time 15

again, the governments need to do that. 16

Overall, I think colonialism has an 17

overarching impact. And, yes, racism does, but I want to 18

texture it by saying there are different manifestations of 19

racism. And, to me, the most dangerous is the actual 20

structural racism when it is perpetuated by states, when 21

it is embedded in state policy despite them having an 22

alternative that would allow for a non-discriminatory 23

approach. 24

MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: Thank you. Would 25

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Cr-Ex (BENTHAM) 73

you say that colonial acquisition of lands was enacted 1

through targeted gender violence to destroy Indigenous 2

peoples’ connection to their territory by attacking those 3

at the heart of the connection, which is Indigenous women 4

and girls? 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think -- how do I 6

want to answer this? Because I don’t want to 7

overgeneralize amongst -- I will tell you what I am 8

wrestling with, is I don’t know in a lot of detail the 9

distinct differences between the precolonial cultures of 10

different Indigenous communities and how that would have 11

been impacted by colonialism. 12

What I am prepared to say is that, as a 13

general principle, where colonialism introduced 14

patriarchal views in many societies where there was a more 15

balanced gender perspective or whether, in fact, it was a 16

matriarchal power system, and that disrupted those power 17

systems and introduced a more, kind of, patriarchal 18

society, that predisposed women and girls to violence. 19

And, certainly in the taking of lands, the separation of 20

women, for example, in many cultures, water and women, is 21

-- they are kind of tied together, is the destruction of 22

the water is, in fact, a destruction of the female 23

identity and a female role in those communities. 24

MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: Thank you. Are 25

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Cr-Ex (BENTHAM) 74

you aware of any current policies, practices or 1

recommendations that specifically address the unique 2

vulnerabilities of physical violence, sexual abuse and 3

exploitation of girls and young women in the child welfare 4

system? 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, multiples. Not 6

only in just community reports. Regional reports, 7

national reports, international reports. 8

MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: Would you agree 9

that violence erasure and complicity dates back to before 10

Canada became Canada, which is the social/political 11

realities that make it possible for Indigenous women and 12

girls to be recorded as missing and murdered in Canada? 13

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Oh, definitely. I 14

mean, colonialism began -- it predates the creation of the 15

Canadian state, but it was engrained into the DNA of the 16

Canadian state. That is important to know, is all that 17

context from pre -- from the moment of contact and the 18

colonial policies that were pursued during those 19

intermeeting years between when contact was made and when 20

Canada became a state, the colonial philosophy 21

underpinning that was embedded into the DNA of the 22

Canadian consciousness and Canadian governance, and 23

persists up until today. 24

MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: Thank you. As a 25

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Cr-Ex (BENTHAM) 75

Gitxsan woman that comes from a matriarchal society that 1

honours our life givers and the special relationships to 2

Mother Earth, would you agree that the deep internalized 3

violence within Indigenous communities creates particular 4

challenges around issues of anonymity for Indigenous girls 5

and/or women who may be violated through sexual abuse to 6

be able to heal and/or to speak out if their perpetrators 7

are in positions of power within Indigenous communities? 8

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, absolutely. 9

And, in fact, that is why I emphasized earlier that as 10

“reported cases”. I think that we have to ensure that we 11

are being true to the traditional concepts of how women 12

and girls, and in fact all children, should be treated. 13

And, I don’t know of an Indigenous society in Canada, or 14

indeed the world, where sexual abuse or sexual harassment 15

was part of the fabric of the precolonial construct of 16

that community. And, we need to absolutely courageously 17

face it when it happens and we need to make sure it stops. 18

MS. SUMMER-RAIN BENTHAM: Thank you. Hesh-19

go-see-um (phonetic). 20


we would like to invite up Mr. Roy Stewart on behalf of 22

NunatuKavut Community Council Inc. And, Mr. Stewart will 23

have six-and-a-half minutes. 24

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROY STEWART: 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (STEWART) 76

MR. ROY STEWART: Hello, Dr. Blackstock. 1


MR. ROY STEWART: First, if I stutter or 3

don’t make any sense, it is just because I am a bit 4

excited to engage in dialogue with you. So, my name is 5

Roy Stewart, and I am fortunate to be legal counsel here 6

on behalf of the NunatuKavut Community Council, which is 7

the representative organization for approximately 6,000 8

Inuit peoples in Southern and Central Labrador. 9

And, for NunatuKavut individuals, there 10

are, you know, as what you have explained in Toronto and 11

here, an inadequacy of support services, whether it is 12

mental health crisis, child services. And, our -- like, 13

the view from our communities is what constitutes mental 14

health and addictions counselling at a health centre in 15

Goose Bay, for example, often involves students fresh out 16

of an undergrad degree, which results in, you know, high 17

turnover rates and, you know, ineffective service. 18

Whereas the same service, for example, in St. John’s, from 19

our understanding, it is often required that a person have 20

a master’s degree and some experience before they can be 21

qualified to deliver those services. 22

And, at the Toronto hearing related to 23

this, you cited a U.S. Supreme Court decision where I 24

believe it was Justice Frankfurter you said -- or who said 25

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Cr-Ex (STEWART) 77

that there is no greater inequality than equal treatment 1

of unequals. Well, to us, NunatuKavut Inuit, do not even 2

receive that so-called equal treatment. And, I am just 3

curious, you know, outside of a funding context or 4

approach, have you come across issues such as this 5

regarding the inadequacy or differing levels of service in 6

different regions? And, if so, how was it addressed, you 7

know, outside of the funding context? 8

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Definitely, I have. 9

There seems to be very little in terms of support for 10

persons who are working in rural and remote areas in 11

Canada to receive the same quality of services persons 12

living in urban areas. And, I don’t agree that all of 13

that is just part of an impossible context. In fact, 14

where I have seen some progress is actually with 15

universities and Indigenous communities collaborating 16

together to offer distant education programs for their 17

community members so that those community members already 18

living in the North or in a rural context can get the 19

academic credentials and the training that they need in 20

order to deliver the services. 21

There is another element. When I was 22

working in B.C., I was the Executive Director of something 23

called -- then called the Caring for First Nations 24

Children’s Society. And, we were brought together by the 25

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First Nations in B.C. who had a number of these BSW 1

graduates showing up on their workforces. 2

And, what they found is that these people 3

received almost no training at all on First Nations, Métis 4

or Inuit people in their undergraduate degree. And, 5

certainly, if they did receive any content, it was not 6

enough to prepare them to actually work with -- 7

effectively with communities. So, they asked us to work 8

with all of the First Nations in British Columbia, which 9

is rather a diverse group, as you know, there are a lot of 10

different languages, and develop a training program for 11

all social workers who were planning to work in First 12

Nations agencies who had a BSW degree. 13

And so, Maggie, Dr. Margaret Kovach, she 14

was the lead in that project. And she developed a 15

training program where you’d bring together all the social 16

workers; they would do things like residential schools, 17

multigenerational trauma, addictions. 18

And then there was also a field component 19

where you would work with Elders and knowledge Keepers and 20

families in that particular community you’re working with 21

so that you develop those relationships and that 22

community-specific knowledge. And then, therefore, we’re 23

better able to serve community members. 24

So that’s an example of something that was 25

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done. 1

Another example is Mi’kmaw Child and Family 2

Services where Joan Gloade, back in 1973, I think was 3

among 50 Indigenous people in the country with a degree. 4

And she wanted her workforce to have those equitable 5

educational programs, so she collaborated with Dalhousie 6

University to create the Mi’kmaw Maliseet BSW Program, 7

which continues up until today. And I’d like to see 8

programs like that all over the country. 9

MR. ROY STEWART: Perfect, thank you. 10

I just want to switch gears, and you’ve 11

discussed, you know, somewhat at length the Jordan’s 12

Principle and you’ve explained how Canada is excluding 13

non-status and Inuit children from this principle, and you 14

explained, you know, how you disagree with this, and that 15

you’d like to see all Indigenous children included under 16

Jordan’s Principle. And it was at the Toronto hearing 17

where you stated, “It’s called First Nations and Inuit 18

Health Branch, as you know.” 19

Well, the NunatuKavut Inuit to date have 20

been denied eligibility under FNIHB, and as well to non-21

insured health benefits. Yet they can have their own kin, 22

for example, if they’re, say, a member of Nunatsiavut, 23

then that person could have access to those federal 24

services. 25

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So we can have one family where depending 1

on, you know, what they’re a member of, can receive access 2

to these federal services, and another, if they’re not a 3

member, won’t receive it. 4

So I’m just wondering, you know, how do we 5

do better to break this cycle or -- for parents and 6

ultimately children who have and are experience trauma 7

when NunatuKavut Inuit, for example, especially the youth 8

are having theirself and their identity questioned by 9

government. 10

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: One of the more 11

recent developments is Canada has now partnered with ITK 12

to develop a Jordan’s Principle type of approach for Inuit 13

children. I’m not sure what the specifics of that are but 14

I’m glad to see that happening. I just want to see it 15

happen on the ground. 16

We have, at the Caring Society, assisted a 17

number of Inuk children and their families to be able to 18

access services under Jordan’s Principle. And my position 19

is, is that any decision regarding -- from a state 20

regarding a child should be based on the best interests of 21

that child. 22

It’s up to the adults to sort out these 23

other kind of procedural mechanisms so it doesn’t get in 24

the way of the best interests of the kids. 25

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Cr-Ex (WAWZONEK) 81

Governments often say at election time that 1

children should come first. Well, they should come first 2

not just on election day but on every single day. 3

MR. ROY STEWART: Thank you so much. 4


Next we would like to invite up the Native 6

Women’s Association of the Northwest Territories. 7

Ms. Caroline Wawzonek has six and a half 8

minutes. 9

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: 10

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: And I bet you’re 11

going to take me to that study, aren’t you? 12

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: I am; although, to 13

be fair, my intention is to put the page numbers on the 14

record --- 15

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Okay. 16

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: --- and not 17

necessarily make you pick through it. 18

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Okay. 19

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: In the interests of 20

my six minutes and 23 seconds. 21

But good morning, and thank you. 22

I do want to acknowledge the warm welcome 23

we continue to receive here in Treaty 1 territory and the 24

homelands of the Métis people, and it is a pleasure to be 25

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Cr-Ex (WAWZONEK) 82

here and an honour to be here for the Native Women’s 1

Association of Northwest Territories. 2

So I appreciate the heavy lifting from 3

Commission counsel; it is Exhibit 26 that I am going to be 4

making reference to, in terms of page numbers; as I said, 5

more for the record as opposed to flipping pages. 6

At page 5, Dr. Blackstock, one of the 7

things you highlighted in the sort of executive summary 8

there is that: 9

“There needs to be significant reflection given by the 10

Northwest Territories government for the involvement of 11

Aboriginal governments or communities in designing and 12

delivering child welfare services.” (As read) 13

You note that we are one of the few 14

jurisdictions where the territorial government has 15

exclusive control, and that remains the case. And I 16

counted no less than six recommendations, and there may 17

be, in fact, more, that you give in this report saying why 18

it is that they need to engage Indigenous communities. 19

But some of it stuck out to me, and I’d 20

like you to comment on, is that it’s not enough for the 21

government to wait for the communities to come to them or 22

to wait for the communities, but that in fact -- and at 23

page 10 you say, “They need to be proactive.” 24

Can you explain why? 25

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Cr-Ex (WAWZONEK) 83

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Because for so long, 1

the communities have been told, “No, you can’t have it.” 2

So I think it’s a duty on the government, and in fact, I 3

think it’s an obligation on the government under UNDRIP, 4

to go out to the communities and say, “Not only are we 5

chancing the page ourselves, we realize that our previous 6

approach was not the one we should have taken, but we are 7

sincerely interested in this and we would like to do 8

something around either, A, if you’ve already got a kind 9

of self-governance type of approach you’d like to put to 10

us, and let’s see it again.” Or, B, alternatively, 11

undertake something like the Touchstones of Hope to allow 12

that communal visioning to happen. 13

And then as a secondary and equally 14

important step, provide the resources and the space and 15

the technical expertise for that community to be able to 16

realize the vision of what they come up with. I think 17

that’s essential. 18

They shouldn’t just be waiting in their 19

offices. They need to get out there and really speak to 20

people. Because the folks I talk to were very clear; they 21

had plans; they just needed the space and the invitation 22

by the government to say that they’re now willing to 23

seriously consider and, in fact, implement those plans. 24

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Great, thank you 25

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very much. 1

Another one of the things, and it draws on 2

your earlier recommendation already to the Commission 3

around causal factors, and looking at the causal factors. 4

And throughout this report comes up the issue of substance 5

misuse. 6

If you could just comment for me; one 7

option is to rely on funding foster families and sending 8

parents south to residential treatment facilities for 9

addictions treatment, or to take foster level funding for 10

extended family in the communities and to have more 11

community-based treatment, whether that’s through the 12

community-based groups, support groups, peer groups, et 13

cetera. 14

Which route is the better direction for 15

outcomes? If you could just discuss that a bit for me, 16

please. 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, for me, it’s 18

not taking funding from one or the other; it’s actually 19

enhancing the funding, and providing an emphasis on 20

community-based addictions interventions. Because far too 21

often what was happening in the NWT when I was hearing 22

community members is these community members were being 23

flown out, they would be disconnected from their family 24

and support system and culture. They may address it on a 25

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Cr-Ex (WAWZONEK) 85

short-term basis, the addiction issue, but then they would 1

go right back to the social context that was arising 2

through the addictions issue and things would lapse back 3

in. 4

There needs to be a community- and family-5

based treatment approach that supports everyone to address 6

the causes of addictions. 7

When I look at it -- I’m not an expert in 8

addictions, but when I see addictions it’s a symptom of 9

the trauma that is unresolved, and that’s where you need 10

to get at. 11

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Is it just -- 12

having just said that, is it a good use of public funds to 13

send parents away as part of their social work treatment 14

plan, if you will, without investing in the aftercare in 15

the community? 16

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: No, not in my view. 17

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Okay. At page 18 18

you had as one of your high-priority recommendations -- 19

short-term back in 2010, unfortunately -- that the 20

government consider leveraging the then-Child Welfare 21

Tribunal to try to increase resources for First Nations 22

children in the Northwest Territories. 23

Now it’s eight years later, but do you have 24

any comments on what room there might still be to use that 25

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approach or to use what you were getting at there? 1

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So one of 2

the unique things that we found in the Territories is that 3

there’s actually an INAC-appointed commissioner that 4

approves the Child Welfare Act. So there’s a direct 5

relationship to the feds. 6

The feds were saying, “Well, because we’re 7

not funding it directly it’s excluded from the program.” 8

But the feds had key control over what was happening in 9

the Northwest Territories. And we felt that the 10

principles of non-discrimination, of substantive equality, 11

should be drawn upon to apply to children in the Northwest 12

Territories, particularly in relationship to what I viewed 13

as a large segment of the population having unmet needs, 14

and that there being a real dearth of culturally 15

appropriate services available that were community driven. 16

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Thank you. 17

And one last question, and this one is much 18

more specific. Page 12 you had mentioned as a 19

recommendation family conferencing and mediation that is 20

culturally based. If you could explain, maybe, what does 21

that look like; what are its goals? 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So right now 23

you’ve got kind of two options. You’ve got kind of 24

meeting informally and some kind of family conferencing 25

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thing that’s often not resourced to bring the family 1

members in from different remote communities. Or you have 2

the court system. And what I would like to see is the 3

development of a whole continuum of dispute resolution 4

services that really help families resolve these issues 5

and get access to the supports they need without having to 6

go through the adversarial court system. 7

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Waseecho 8

(phonetic). Thank you. 9


we would like to invite up the Association of Native Child 11

and Family Services Agencies of Ontario. Ms. Katherine 12

Hensel will have 6.5 minutes. 13

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 14

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good morning, Dr. 15

Blackstock. As you may know, I am Katherine Hensel, I am 16

a citizen of the Secwepemc Nation and I am counsel here 17

today for the Association of Native Child and Family 18

Services Agencies of Ontario. And, I am honoured to be 19

here, questioning you today, in Treaty 1 territory. 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Thank you. 21

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: We heard evidence 22

from you when you last testified that, in your view, if 23

there were funding parity and non-discriminatory funding 24

for Indigenous children across the board, there would be 25

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Cr-Ex (HENSEL) 88

no Indigenous child welfare problem in terms of 1

overrepresentation. Do you recall that evidence that you 2

gave? 3

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think what I would 4

have said is that the overrepresentation would, over time, 5

be substantially reduced, that the inequalities are 6

clearly linked to the overrepresentation of First Nations 7

kids in care. 8

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. And, we heard 9

evidence yesterday from Cora Morgan, who is the First 10

Nations Child Advocate here, that in this province, where 11

I think it would be fair to say that the problems of 12

overrepresentation are possibly most acute in the country, 13

or at least very acute, there is $512 million per annum 14

spent on child protection, and in fact, there are more 15

babies and children in care per capita proportionately and 16

in terms of gross numbers than there have ever been. And, 17

of course, 90 percent of them are Indigenous in this 18

province in care. 19

Is it safe to say that that is not what you 20

meant when -- that is not the model that you are aspiring 21

to, when you are talking about increases in funding for 22

child protection or for child welfare? 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: When I have been 24

talking about increases in funding, I have also made it 25

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very clear I am looking at the causes of children going 1

into care. There are things like inadequate housing, 2

which are huge in Manitoba. There is also access to clean 3

water, poverty is an issue. So, it would be -- if all you 4

do is create equity in child welfare without addressing 5

the drivers of it -- which is why I need the Spirit Bear 6

Plan; right? Unless we create equity across all those 7

dimensions, the overrepresentation is going to continue. 8

And so, it is vital that we look at equity 9

not just as a program, but as a philosophy that is applied 10

in -- within a substantive equity lens to all First 11

Nations kids. If we did that, then I think we would 12

achieve the outcomes that I am talking about. If we fail 13

to do that, then we are continuing to see 14

overrepresentation. 15

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Even with more money 16

and potentially exacerbated by further resources being 17

poured into what is termed “protection”, and I use that --18

- 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, what we know 20

from the Wanday (10:33:47) study is, actually, First 21

Nations agencies are less likely to remove than non-22

Indigenous agencies. So, I think that is important to 23

say, that even in an underfunded state, if you look at 24

them globally, they are less likely to remove the non-25

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Cr-Ex (HENSEL) 90

Indigenous agencies. 1

And, what I do not know about the Manitoba 2

situation well enough is what the distribution of those 3

cases are amongst those agencies, who is seeing increases, 4

and also it is important to note that the funding on 5

actuals for agencies just began on February 1st and was 6

not implemented for several months after that. So, I do 7

not think we are in a position right now to make any 8

correlation between increased funding and the situation of 9

kids on the ground, you know? 10

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: ANCFSAO member 11

agencies experience a phenomena -- observe a phenomena 12

where they send either their Indigenous workers, new 13

workers, or non-Indigenous workers who have a manifest 14

capacity and an inclination towards family preservation 15

and culturally appropriate practices. They send them to 16

new worker training, they seconded into mainstream 17

agencies and they internalize service models that are, in 18

the view of my clients, counterproductive and it is very 19

difficult to get them back. 20

Would you agree that it would be helpful to 21

develop an Indigenous designed, sourced and targeted 22

training system for a training program that is 23

territorially specific and culturally specific within each 24

territory for any and all child protection workers who are 25

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working with Indigenous children, so that this phenomena 1

does not occur? 2

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, that is what 3

we did in B.C., which is that program I was talking about 4

earlier. Now, the degree to be community specific on a 5

pragmatic thing would depend on those communities. You 6

have some very large communities in Ontario where that is 7

not an issue at all. But, in other cases, they may want 8

to collaborate and then have community specific components 9

which should be non-negotiable, in my view, is having that 10

community specific component so that you understand the 11

distinct cultures, characteristics and the context of the 12

families in that situation, but that you also then have a 13

broader overlay of some of the more generalized kind of 14

things like systemic trauma. 15

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. And so, the 16

communities can once again re-engage in dreaming for the 17

future of their children in a healthy way as you described 18

earlier? 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: And, that goes 20

beyond child welfare; right? Because you know, kids do 21

not design their lives that way; right? This is the child 22

welfare dream and this is the education dream. It has to 23

be a holistic dream. And then you target the programs so 24

that they are coordinated to achieve that dream. 25

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Cr-Ex (HENSEL) 92

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. We also heard 1

evidence from Ms. Morgan yesterday, just anecdotal 2

evidence, about a mother who had aged out of care, was out 3

of care herself, became pregnant, birth alert issued at 4

three months unbeknownst to her, and then she never heard 5

from any agency or service until the baby is born, when 6

the birth alert is triggered, and then workers show up 7

with an agency car seat to apprehend the child with the 8

intention of apprehending the child. 9

And, she testified that that approach, in 10

her view, was incentivized by the funding model at work 11

here today in this province, and potentially elsewhere. 12

Can you talk about, just to go back very briefly in the 13

remaining time I have which is barely any, what a service 14

model would look like that would -- in a more holistic way 15

address those circumstances based on the very limited 16

facts that I have given you? 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I would say -- 18

again, I re-avert to my answer on equity. We need 19

equitable child and maternal health, we need equitable 20

early childhood education programs, so that you are 21

actually creating a societal situation for that young mom, 22

where she is predisposed to being able to have the 23

conditions in place to give her the ultimate capacity to 24

parent. 25

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Cr-Ex (BARLOW) 93

What happens is, child welfare engagement 1

is often a symptom of the failure of broader society to 2

have the supports in place, so that the families, 3

particularly most at risk, that means most often poor 4

families, have the ability to make for themselves the 5

lives they wish to do for their children and their 6

families. 7

MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Right. Thank you. 8

My time is up. Kukshtien (10:38:05), Dr. Blackstock. 9


we would like to invite up Manitoba Keewatinawi 11

Okimakanak, and I am sorry because I know I have 12

mispronounced that, MKO. Ms. Jessica Barlow will have 6.5 13

minutes. 14

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JESSICA BARLOW: 15

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: Good morning. I would 16

like to acknowledge the spirits of our sisters, the elders 17

and the grandmothers, sacred items in the room, the 18

families and survivors, and I also would like to 19

acknowledge that we are here on Treaty 1 territory and the 20

homeland of the Métis nation. My name is Jessica Barlow 21

and I am legal counsel on behalf of MKO. 22

And, MKO is an organization that represents 23

numerous northern and remote sovereign First Nations in 24

Manitoba to give some context. And, I would like to thank 25

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Cr-Ex (BARLOW) 94

you, Dr. Blackstock, for the work that you do, and also 1

for your testimony in Toronto and again here today. 2

And, before I begin, I ask that everyone 3

protect their spirit, because the subject matter that I am 4

going to be bringing up is extremely sensitive, but very 5

important. It is not my intention to do any harm and it 6

is with the most respect that I wish to address these 7

issues in a good way, and I promise to walk softly. 8

And so, in your testimony in Toronto, Dr. 9

Blackstock, you spoke about numerous inequities that First 10

Nations children face. And, you said how these youth 11

internalize this inequity as a personal deficit and that 12

they believe that they are not worth the money; is that 13

correct? 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, that is 15

correct. 16

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: And, this you have 17

stated, this internalization can correlate to, among other 18

things, increased suicide rates in First Nations youth; is 19

that correct? 20


MS. JESSICA BARLOW: And, is it fair to say 22

that we know that this inequity is linked to much higher 23

rates of youth suicide because it creates a lot of 24

hardship for youth in so many critical aspects of their 25

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Cr-Ex (BARLOW) 95

lives, and as a result, this inequity can present in our 1

youth and in the increased likelihood of suicidal ideation 2

and death from suicide? 3

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think what it does 4

is it -- when you deal with that many cross-cutting 5

inequalities, these young people often do not know they 6

are getting less funding, they just know that life is a 7

lot easier for other kids, and that is why they begin to 8

internalize it. It is like that quote from Eduardo where 9

-- about silent colonization where you begin to think that 10

you can’t talk, when you being to think that you can’t 11

dream, that is what -- that is the poison of those cross-12

cutting inequalities at a very personal level. 13

But, then, those young people are 14

confronted with another set of inequalities and so are 15

their families. And, that is once they are at a place 16

where they are having suicidal ideation, there are very 17

few services, because of the inequalities again to be able 18

to support them so that they can work their way through 19

that and be able to make healthy and positive choices for 20

themselves, and that we also, at the same time, address 21

those inequalities that have led to the problem in the 22

first place. 23

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: And, you would agree 24

that we not only just address those inequalities, but we 25

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Cr-Ex (BARLOW) 96

address them in a substantive way? 1

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I would say that 2

there is no excuse for any level of inequality. I don’t 3

care if First Nations kids are getting a penny less. The 4

issue is that the country is founded under the charter, 5

even under colonial law under Section 15 that nobody 6

should be discriminated on the basis of their race or 7

their culture, and yet that is exactly what is happening. 8

There is no excuse for it whatsoever. 9

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: Thank you. And, are 10

you aware of -- and according to available statistics, my 11

apologies if I get this number incorrect, but suicide 12

rates for First Nations youth are 5 to 7 times higher than 13

for non-Indigenous youth; are you aware of that statistic? 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, I had seen 15

various ranges between 4 and 6. What is absolutely clear 16

is there is a dramatic and tragic overrepresentation of 17

First Nations, as well as Inuit children in -- among new 18

suicide rates. 19

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: Thank you. And, I can 20

state that this statistic holds true in many First Nations 21

communities in Northern Manitoba where the youth suicide 22

has been ongoing and enduring crisis for a very long time. 23

And --- 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: The tragedy is that 25

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Cr-Ex (BARLOW) 97

sometimes we use the word “youth suicide”, but the real -- 1

another layer of the tragedy is sometimes it is child 2

suicide. 3

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: Right. And, while 4

there have been strides in these communities towards 5

providing essential services and supports, these 6

inequities that you speak of that are faced by these First 7

Nations communities continue to endure and are often 8

intensely felt by children and youth. And, you spoke of 9

some examples, like health services, education, clean 10

water, housing, poverty; right? 11

And so, with the limited time that I have 12

left, I am wondering if you can speak further to these 13

links between these inequities and their intense impact on 14

children and youth. And, how, if these inequities 15

continue, based on state inaction, how this can intensify 16

those impacts, please? 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: The World Health 18

Organization did a study in 2008 headed by Sir Michael 19

Marmot, who was also the person who headed up our study at 20

the PAHO Commission that I spoke to earlier. And, the key 21

finding there was given word by Margaret Chan, who is a 22

Canadian physician, then Director of the WHO, who said, 23

“Social injustice is killing on a grand scale.” And, I 24

believe all the evidence suggests that Canada’s 25

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Cr-Ex (BARLOW) 98

perpetuation of the inequalities, First Nations children, 1

young people and their families, continues to tragically 2

kill on a grand scale on this country. 3

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: Thank you. And, I am 4

wondering if you can provide the Commission some 5

recommendations today with the specific focus on the 6

expansion of First Nations designed and implemented 7

programs that may assist in the prevention of child and 8

youth suicide? And, also programs that may allow for 9

families, children and communities to flourish? 10

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So, Chandler 11

and Lelaw (phonetic) back in 1998, two psychologists did a 12

study that showed that really the self-determination is 13

collated -- or correlated with a reduction in youth 14

suicide rates. The higher the level of self-15

determination, i.e. if you are a young person and you look 16

out and you see elders of your community being able to 17

make choices, that means that you can then make choices as 18

a child and young person. It gives you more of an 19

expanded sense of possibility. If, alternatively, you are 20

looking out and you see adults who are not able to make 21

choices, you have to check with Ottawa, who then really 22

makes the choices, that disables your sense of self-agency 23

and the ability to make different choices. 24

So, we would recommend, of course -- we see 25

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Cr-Ex (PASTORA SALA) 99

a direct line between self-determination and reduction of 1

youth suicide rates. And so, what we have been doing at 2

the -- as a -- in the wake of the Tribunal is really 3

picking up again on a recommendation, that we made back in 4

2000 in the Joint National Policy Review, which is for 5

Canada to expand the options of child welfare for which it 6

funds to include First Nation self-jurisdiction. It 7

currently only restricts it to provincial delegation. 8

MS. JESSICA BARLOW: Thank you so very 9

much. Those are my questions. 10

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you, Ms. 11

Barlow. Next, we would like to invite up the Assembly of 12

Manitoba Chiefs. Ms. Joëlle Pastora Sala will have six-13

and-a-half minutes. 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think I am at the 15

halfway mark here. Ten out of 20. 16

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: 17

MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Things are going 18

quickly. 19


MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Thank you. 21

Morning, Dr. Blackstock. 22


MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Thank you very 24

much for all of the work you do and for your testimony 25

PANEL 2


here, as well as in Toronto. My name is Joëlle Pastora 1

Sala. I am counsel to the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs in 2

this Inquiry. 3

The first theme I would like to pick up on 4

with you this morning is the theme of neglect. 5

Specifically, I would like to hear a little bit more from 6

you about neglect, not at the time prior to apprehension, 7

which we have already spoken a little bit about today, or 8

which you have already spoken a little bit about today, 9

but once the children are in care. In your work as an 10

advocate for First Nation children across Canada, have you 11

heard of any stories of neglect of First Nation children 12

by their foster families? 13

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Certainly, those 14

have been well-documented in various inquests and 15

inquiries across the country. It is important to say that 16

is not the experience of all children in foster care, but 17

certainly there are -- it is traumatic to see what happens 18

to some kids in foster care and even more -- I think more 19

prevalently the number of placement changes that kids have 20

to experience in foster care. 21

MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Can you give us a 22

couple examples of the types of neglect you have heard of? 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, let me just 24

back up a point and just say that, instead of just giving 25

PANEL 2


you named examples, which I really would like to avoid 1

here, I would like to just suggest that one of the things 2

we don’t do in child welfare is a risk assessment on the 3

child’s placement in child welfare. So, you will do -- 4

use a structured decision-making tool to be able to 5

determine the risk of the child and the family. 6

But, if you recall my earlier testimony, I 7

really say one of the duties of child welfare is, when it 8

is adequately funded, is when you remove a child, it is to 9

provide them the best opportunity for a better life from 10

where they came, even temporarily while you work with the 11

family. What we don’t do is a risk assessment on the 12

actual placement in child welfare, which we know also 13

poses risk for children. 14

And so, when you aren’t balancing that 15

risk, then it looks like you are taking a child out of a 16

risky situation and putting them in a non-risky situation. 17

And, what I would argue is that we need to have risk 18

assessments on both. And then for that particular child, 19

you weigh that, and then you decide what is the best 20

option for that kid. 21

MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Can you talk a 22

little bit about the consequences of not doing that risk 23

assessment and the link between whether it is neglect or 24

failure to do risk assessments and missing and murdered 25

PANEL 2


Indigenous women and girls? 1

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, one of the 2

things -- if you are not doing that risk assessment, and 3

then also the other problem -- thing, I don’t know if I 4

talked about in Toronto, but I hope I did, is my concern 5

about the codification of structural discrimination as a 6

personal deficit in our current definitions of neglect. 7

There is no need for you to -- or any kind 8

of mechanism for social workers to meaningfully ask, “What 9

are the risks with this child that that family can 10

actually change on their own,” versus, “What are the risks 11

that are facing the family that they can’t change?” So, 12

what you have is everything being looked at, at the level 13

of that parent and that you can ideally change all of 14

these things, which isn’t necessarily true. 15

So, you have that definition of neglect, 16

plus you have this not balancing of this child welfare 17

placement as being a possibility of providing risk for 18

kids. What that means together is two things. One is 19

that you are not always going -- tackling the drivers of 20

why kids are coming into care. For example, in a neglect 21

-- a typical neglect response is to provide parenting 22

courses to the family. Sometimes those can benefit, but 23

if you don’t have water or a house, parenting programs 24

aren’t going to do you a lot of good; right? So, that is 25

PANEL 2


the problem with codification at a personal level. 1

The other problem is it can make child 2

welfare placement look like it is not risky when, in fact, 3

what we know from the experiences of children even in that 4

Ontario example, where they often are, on average, at 5

least in the case of these particular youth are at higher 6

risk, facing as many as 12 different placements, and that 7

is -- that creates harms for kids. 8

MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: I would like to 9

push you a little bit further and just to make that link -10

- and I know it might seem obvious to you, but just -- can 11

you talk a little bit more explicitly about the links to 12

missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls? 13

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: So, if you are in 14

child welfare care, you are more likely to, for example, 15

in those placement changes and in your disconnection from 16

family, to be placed at higher risk for mental health 17

issues, to be placed at higher risk for addictions. And, 18

we have seen examples right here in Manitoba where 19

children in care have become among the murdered and 20

missing Indigenous women. 21

So, I haven’t seen the detailed statistics, 22

but I expect from the findings of this particular 23

Commission, what we will find is that there is an 24

overrepresentation of women who were in care or children 25

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who were in care at the time of their deaths being amongst 1

murdered and missing Indigenous women. The other piece 2

that I think would be worth looking at is, amongst the 3

young men, does that pattern replicate? And, I expect it 4

does. 5

MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Switching gears a 6

little bit, earlier, you stated that the province and 7

territories continue to adopt definitions of Jordan’s 8

Principle that are inconsistent with the Canadian Human 9

Rights Tribunal orders; correct? 10

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: They either -- none 11

of them have, to my knowledge, adopted anything since the 12

Tribunal has ordered. Those adoptions happened pre-13

Tribunal. And, in Manitoba here, it is a very narrow 14

definition that they have not revised. It is only 15

children with special needs. 16

MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Can you, again, 17

comment on the link between that failure to change the 18

definition and missing and murdered Indigenous women and 19

girls? 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So, if the 21

provinces aren’t adopting the full compliant definition, 22

then they aren’t really accepting their responsibility to 23

provide substantive equality-level services to women and 24

girls throughout their lifespan. And, if you are not 25

PANEL 2


accepting that responsibility and just relying on the feds 1

to hopefully pick up the slack for you, which they won’t 2

in many cases, we know that, that is why Jordan’s 3

Principle was given rise, then what is happening is we are 4

creating and we are perpetuating conditions that place 5

Indigenous women and girls at greater risk for violence. 6


MS. JOËLLE PASTORA SALA: Thank you. I 8

think my time is up. 9


and Commissioners, I know we had a short break earlier. 11

However, we -- I would request that we have a 10-minute 12

break. We are halfway through the list and apparently on 13

schedule, but if we could have a 10-minute break, that 14

would afford people an opportunity to have a health break 15

or do what they need to, and we would appreciate it. 16

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Sure, 10 17

minutes, please. 18

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: So, we will be back 19

at 11:00, recommencing. 20


--- Upon resuming at 11:11 22

---PANEL II, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED 23

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: I see Ms. De 24

Whytell is at the podium. Chief Commissioner and 25

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Cr-Ex (DE WHYTTEL) 106

Commissioners, if we could proceed again with the cross-1

examination? The Independent First Nations represented by 2

Counsel Josephine De Whytell has six-and-a-half minutes. 3

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JOSEPHINE DE WHYTELL: 4

MS. JOSEPHINE DE WHYTELL: Good morning. 5

Good morning, Commissioners. Good morning, elders. I 6

would like to begin by recognizing the Treaty 1 Territory. 7

and the elders and the sacred items in the room. And, 8

also thanks, Dr. Blackstock, for your testimony this 9

morning and in Toronto. 10

I am here on behalf of the Independent 11

First Nations. Now, we heard evidence that existing 12

mainstream child welfare service models fail to recognize 13

much less address collective intergenerational traumas 14

arising from residential schools. Without doing so, they 15

perpetuate harm caused by those traumas and add new ones 16

for successive generations, as I understand. To you, what 17

do the components of a child welfare system look like that 18

does address residential school collective trauma, and 19

collective intergenerational trauma to be specific? 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I need to just 21

preface my answer by saying I am a big supporter of, like 22

the Touchstones of Hope, so it is done in a community-23

based kind of configuration. But, on broad strokes, here 24

are some of the things I would be looking for. 25

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One is that it is based on a holistic 1

vision of what a healthy family and child is in that 2

distinct culture, that that is the guiding vision for it, 3

that it doesn’t compromise children’s safety or their 4

well-being. In fact, it seeks to augment it at every 5

opportunity and requires of all adults and all -- 6

actually, I would extend it to all persons in the 7

community to accept their obligation to ensure the safety 8

and the well-being of all children in that community. 9

Traditionally, that was the way it was 10

done. We were all child protection workers, and that is 11

the way it should be restored to. It should have full 12

substantive equality across all services. And, that means 13

getting back to the things around housing, ensuring clean 14

water to drink, access to electrical power, access to 15

appropriate IT technology, because that is such a pre-16

determinate now of education programs, et cetera. That 17

whole base. 18

The other thing is I would like to see the 19

visions of neglect -- the definitions of neglect modified. 20

There are 21 U.S. States in the District of Columbia that 21

have taken a stab at trying to get -- differentiate 22

between structural discrimination, the causes of neglect 23

that are beyond the ability of parents to control and the 24

causes of neglect that are within the ability of parents 25

PANEL 2


to control. Canada has done nothing like that, and I 1

think it is really important that we look at that as an 2

example. But, where those things have failed, in my view, 3

in the U.S., has been when -- they have just passed 4

legislation, but not increase the number of services to 5

get at poverty and get at those things. So, those two 6

things have to go together. 7

Another piece around the broad strokes 8

around what -- a more culturally-based kind of child 9

welfare system would look like is that the social workers 10

need to be supported to really deliver culturally-based 11

care, and that is where the funding mechanism has been a 12

huge problem; right? Is that it not only has not provided 13

adequate funding, sustained funding, not project-made 14

funding, sustained funding, for prevention-based supports. 15

But, it also has not enabled agencies and communities to 16

develop training programs that really are tailored to the 17

needs of their community members not just for social 18

workers, but indeed for all people who are all working in 19

that community. 20

The other piece I would like to see is that 21

we realize that child welfare is not episodic. What do I 22

mean by that? It is not just when you get the report, 23

that we need to be having -- starting our ideas of child 24

welfare even before children themselves become parents; 25

PANEL 2


right? We need to be looking at the preparation of the 1

next generation to be healthy parents and the types of 2

supports that they need. So, those are just some of the 3

components I would look for. 4

MS. JOSEPHINE DE WHYTELL: Thank you very 5

much. Would you agree that development of such a service 6

model should take place within and through Indigenous 7

communities rather than outside agencies and levels of 8

government? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, that is 10

something I have advocated for, for much of my life. 11

MS. JOSEPHINE DE WHYTELL: And, effective 12

services that are actually going to protect children as 13

children throughout their lives, for Indigenous children, 14

it simply has to be targeted at the experience of 15

Indigenous people as Indigenous people, as you have 16

mentioned, not only with respect to residential school, 17

but racism, colonialism more generally. If the service 18

providers don’t understand this, they are not going to be 19

able to provide effective services. Would you agree that 20

this is why they need specific training? 21

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. And, also just 22

-- it is not just the training. It is the opportunity to 23

build relationships in that community. That is what I 24

found so essential. I worked off-reserve as a child 25

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protection worker for nine years and then on-reserve. 1

And, one of the key things that really was important is to 2

build the relationships with the community. So, it is not 3

just the training. It is the nurturing of those 4

relationships with community members that are so essential 5

to doing good casework. 6

MS. JOSEPHINE DE WHYTELL: With an election 7

coming up next year, how do we ensure that these important 8

issues remain on the agenda? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think all of us 10

have to speak out and we need to keep talking. Even when 11

we think no one is listening. And, we also need to set 12

sunsets (indiscernible) about how long are we going to 13

wait for voluntary change; right? 14

I think it is so easy -- and I can only 15

speak for my own self. I think that I, for far too long, 16

relied on the government goodwill to change before going 17

to litigation. And, certainly that is what you hope, is 18

that when the evidence is that government policy is 19

harming children and could be changed so it does not harm 20

children, that governments can do the right thing, but 21

they do not. 22

So, the question then becomes, how morally 23

courageous are we as Indigenous people and organizations, 24

and what are we prepared to sacrifice to make sure that 25

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government does do the right thing whether it is willing 1

to or not, and that involves litigation. For us, it 2

involved a complete funding cut, but I would do it again 3

in a heartbeat because there is no organization that is 4

more important than children. There is no profession or 5

position that is more important than children. I am 6

prepared to sacrifice both those things for them. 7

MS. JOSEPHINE DE WHYTELL: Thank you very 8

much. That is all my time. 9


we would like to invite up the Liard Aboriginal Women’s 11

Society. Ms. Teillet will have 6.5 minutes. 12

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CARLY TEILLET: 13

MS. CARLY TEILLET: Tansi, bonjour and good 14

morning. 15


MS. CARLY TEILLET: I would like to begin 17

by expressing my joy of being able to come home to the 18

lands of the Métis people and to be on the territory of 19

Treaty 1. And, I would like to acknowledge all the women 20

and girls that we are all carrying in our hearts, the 21

families, the survivors, the elders, medicine and sacred 22

objects that are here with us today. 23

My name is Carly Teillet and I am the great 24

granddaughter of Sarah Riel who is the niece of Louis 25

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Cr-Ex (TEILLET) 112

Riel, and I am Métis born not far from here in Saint 1

Boniface, Manitoba in our Red River Community. And, I 2

have the incredible privilege of acting for the Liard 3

Aboriginal Women’s Society, and I am guided by and in the 4

presence of six of our board of directors today. They are 5

Kaska elders, Kaska grandmothers, aunties, great 6

grandmothers, and they have travelled all the way here 7

from the Yukon to attend the hearing this week. 8

The territory of the Kaska Dene people is 9

in northern B.C. and southern Yukon, and they are not 10

under the Yukon umbrella agreement, and they are currently 11

negotiating a treaty. And, the elders shared with me that 12

they want to take care of their children and support their 13

families, and that support has to come from the land, from 14

their teachings and from their Kaska language. And, that 15

they have been asking the Yukon government for over two 16

decades to fund these Kaska family services in their 17

community and on their lands. And, one elder said this 18

morning, we are not being heard. Two decades of inaction 19

at least. The Yukon government is clearly not actively, 20

never mind proactively, addressing the health of Kaska 21

children and families. 22

So, they would like to ask your advice 23

about how they can use this incredible tool that we now 24

have, the Caring Society’s Human Rights Tribunal decision 25

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Cr-Ex (TEILLET) 113

and the non-compliance decisions, particularly because, 1

like the Caring Society, they are a very small 2

organization and are reaching for whatever tool they can 3

use to make change for their families. 4

So, how can they use this tool to get an 5

independent review of all the services for the children in 6

their communities. And so, they are talking about child 7

welfare, education and health systems in the Yukon, and 8

then also use that decision to hold the Yukon government 9

to account for failing to provide services for their 10

children. 11

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. So, their 12

decision actually binds Canada. But, in my view, Canada 13

has a duty to ensure that the needs of First Nations 14

children are met underneath that decision. In fact, it is 15

not just my view, it is the tribunal’s view more 16

importantly. And, the Yukon is one of the jurisdictions 17

that is included in the complaint. And, if you read the 18

wording of the tribunal’s decision very carefully, they 19

reinforce the idea that communities should be providing -- 20

making key decisions regarding the care of their children. 21

I would recommend a couple of things. One 22

is that Stuart Wuttke is there from the Assembly of First 23

Nations and I am here, we are both parties of the 24

tribunal. If you have documents that -- your request that 25

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Cr-Ex (TEILLET) 114

you put forward and they have not been responded to, then 1

bring them to our attention and we will do what we can at 2

our level to support you being heard. 3

The other piece is that it is important to 4

understand is that the tribunal still has jurisdiction 5

over this complaint. They have not released jurisdiction 6

on the child and family service component or, indeed, on 7

Jordan’s Principle. They want to see full implementation 8

of their orders. They are currently holding onto 9

jurisdiction until March 31st. So, if they have 10

information to suggest that Canada is not in compliance 11

with the order, then again that is really important 12

information to bring to Mr. Wuttke’s attention or to my 13

attention. And, we are going to be cross-examining 14

Canada’s witnesses on child and family services as of 15

October 30th and 31st, so that would be a timely 16

opportunity for us to do that. 17

The other piece I think is important is to 18

really explore the option of some kind of litigation, I 19

guess, if you need to go that route with the Yukon 20

government. When we were researching this complaint, I 21

can only speak for the Caring Society, I cannot speak for 22

AFN, but every piece of legislation and child welfare in 23

this country that is offered by the provinces and 24

territories includes the idea that the best interest of 25

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the children is of paramount consideration. And, if the 1

territory is operating in such a way that the best 2

interest of the children is not the paramount 3

consideration, then that leaves open an opportunity to 4

challenge that in litigation. 5

We looked at that as an option. It was 6

certainly something we could have done and went forward 7

with. I hope it is not needed, because I just think it is 8

such a common sense and obvious thing to do, and I am just 9

hoping that these women and others like them are heard by 10

these governments in a different way, but if not, it is 11

there as an option. 12

MS. CARLY TEILLET: Thank you for that. In 13

the brief time I have left, I want to talk again about 14

using that tool of the decision that has come forward, but 15

in this way, kind of, at a negotiation table. 16

So, generally, what we found is that often 17

what is being offered is the same deal that is being 18

offered to all at the same time. And, it is generally the 19

status quo. And, what we know from the human rights 20

decision -- well, what we know ourselves and what we also 21

know now supported by the human rights decision is that is 22

not enough. That is not enough for healthy children and 23

it is not enough for our communities and families to 24

thrive. 25

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Cr-Ex (TEILLET) 116

And so, at that table, do you think there 1

is a way to use this human rights tribunal decision to 2

force a new mandate to force more to be offered as parties 3

go forward in a treaty? 4

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I am not an expert 5

negotiator and I am not at those tables, but this is what 6

I would say, is that the tribunal not only ruled that it 7

was not enough, it ruled the -- what was happening now is 8

discriminatory. And, we actually had evidence of Carcross 9

First Nation, where they had tried to establish their own 10

agency, and Canada disallowed that because they did not 11

reach the population threshold. That was the only reason 12

that they did not allow it. Those population thresholds 13

have been now ruled to be discriminatory. So, really, 14

Carcross First Nation, in my view, was not given the 15

opportunity it should have had, had Canada not been 16

discriminating in its provision of child and family 17

services. 18

So, I am hoping that those things are 19

raised. And, the ideas of substantive equality, the ideas 20

that this needs to be needs based, the idea that the 21

context and culture of those unique communities need to be 22

taken into account becomes a bedrock, the floor of the 23

negotiation, not an aspiration. 24

MS. CARLY TEILLET: Thank you, meegwetch, 25

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merci. It has been an honour to chat with you. 1

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Okay. Thank you. 2

Next, we would like to invite up Families for Justice. 3

Counsel Suzan Fraser will have 6.5 minutes. 4

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUZAN FRASER: 5

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Chief Commissioner, 6

Commissioners, Ms. Blackstock, it is very nice to see you 7

again; and thank you to Treaty 1 for welcoming me into the 8

territory. It is my first time here and I am grateful to 9

be here. Dr. Blackstock, I bring greetings from Lizzy, 10

your devoted soldier of reconciliation who is very excited 11

that I get to be in your presence today. 12

I am here on behalf of 20 families who are 13

busy preparing for tomorrow’s Sisters in Spirit vigil. I 14

have some questions on their behalf. My aim is to do two 15

things today, to deal with some general principles of what 16

you have talked about at the intersection between child 17

welfare issues and missing and murdered Indigenous women 18

and girls, and then move to the Safe With Intervention 19

report of the Office of the Chief Coroner of Ontario, 20

okay? So, I am going to try to move quickly so that I can 21

accomplish my goals. 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: All right. So, let 23

me get this out of the way and just to say thank you to 24

Lizzy and all the children and young people like her. 25

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Cr-Ex (FRASER) 118

MS. SUZAN FRASER: I think you are building 1

quite an army. So they're behind you. I'll pass it on. 2

What I understand from what you've told us 3

today, and earlier, Dr. Blackstock, relates to some of the 4

family stories that we've heard. In this Inquiry, we have 5

heard powerful stories of the loss of family members, when 6

a mother goes missing, a daughter goes missing, and what -7

- and the impact of that on the families, leaving children 8

behind, sometimes in the care of grandparents and aunties, 9

sometimes with extended family, and sometimes with 10

strangers in foster care. And those families often deal 11

with on a basic level how to support those children, those 12

surviving children. 13

And so what I think you're telling us, 14

either through a health equity lens, through a best 15

practice child welfare lens, is that what we should be 16

doing now to protect those children is wrapping them with 17

the supports and services and meet their basic needs? 18

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Meet their basic 19

needs, but also go further than that. Apply a substantive 20

equality lens that go -- that really looks at what is in 21

the best interests of these children. So I think that the 22

basic needs is the floor, and that these children, 23

particularly given the trauma that they've endured, and 24

its relationship to colonialism, the States owe them a 25

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Cr-Ex (FRASER) 119

higher duty than that. 1

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right. And so in simple 2

terms, it means that because their losses are so great 3

and their needs are more, then in order to make them equal 4

they will likely need more, and we should give it to them? 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: And we should give 6

it to them, and it should be culturally relevant to them. 7

It should be in ways that are -- meet their needs. 8

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. And we also know 9

that when a child is apprehended, that's the -- well, the 10

decision to apprehend or not to apprehend could be the 11

single most important decision in a child's life? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Sure. 13

MS. SUZAN FRASER: And that when care 14

doesn't work and when children are removed to their 15

families, one of the things that children might do is to 16

try to go home; right? 17


MS. SUZAN FRASER: And when they run from 19

care to go back to families, they are in harm's way? 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. And one of the 21

things I just want to get back to, though, is the word you 22

used, "choice". Choice implies the ability to choose. 23

So for far too long I think what the 24

Tribunal pointed out is that First Nations agencies didn't 25

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have these services to operate. They were trying to do 1

the best, but it wasn't there. And so the Tribunal has 2

pointed it out, that really in far too many cases where 3

children were at risk, that there was no other "there 4

wasn't a choice". The only intervention you could offer 5

was removal. That's why it's so important that we develop 6

those other services at the front end. 7

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Right. So for an 8

example, in Toronto Children's Aid Society, they 9

90 percent of their work in what they call the family 10

service model. Everything that happens before child 11

protection they do 90 percent of their work. So if you 12

can't fund that preventative work, you might not be able 13

to do 90 percent of the work that another society could 14

do. Is that fair? 15

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: That's right. 16

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. So children -- so 17

just coming back to children trying to reconnect with 18

their families. Really, I think of it as a modern day 19

Chanie Wenjack trying to get home. That children might 20

put their selves in harms way. But also care ends; right? 21

And when a child is 18 and care ends and they have no 22

family, they may also go home. 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: They may also go 24

home, or the other thing is that they'll look for family 25

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in unhealthy places. So that's where so many young people 1

end up in, for example, gangs. It's not that they choose 2

to be a part of the gang, but it's a proxy for our family, 3

and that's what they're looking for, that sense of 4

belonging. 5

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. I have to move 6

quickly to the Safe with Intervention report. You're 7

familiar with that report, Dr. Blackstock? 8

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, I am. 9

MS. SUZAN FRASER: It's a report of the 10

Office of the Chief Coroner, and it examined 12 deaths in 11

Ontario, 8 of whom were Indigenous children and youth. 12

And just -- Chief Commissioners, I'm going 13

to give you page numbers for you to look at for key 14

findings because of the interests of time: pages 2, 3, 4, 15

5, and 8. So I will have to go straight to page 8, which 16

is Recommendation Number 1. 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: And one quick 18

clarification. I think this is a misuse of the word 19

"Indigenous" because all these kids who were Indigenous 20

were First Nations --- 21

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Thank you. 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: --- according to the 23

report. 24

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Thank you. So these 25

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Cr-Ex (FRASER) 122

were eight First Nations youth. And what you talked about 1

in terms of 12 placements, this expert committee found 2

that on average the children were in 12 placements; right? 3


MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. And the coroner's 5

office made one -- their Number 1 recommendation of this 6

expert panel was found at page 8, and: 7

"To immediately provide equitable, culturally and 8

spiritually safe and relevant services to Indigenous young 9

people, families, and communities in Ontario." (As read) 10

So even though the report is dealing with 11

children and the death of children, the expert panel made 12

recommendations directed at families and communities and 13

equitable services? 14


MS. SUZAN FRASER: And you would endorse 16

that? 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, not only would 18

I endorse it, it's already been ordered by the Canadian 19

Human Rights Tribunal to Canada. 20

MS. SUZAN FRASER: Okay. Thank you, 21

Ms. Blackstock. I have many more questions, but that is 22

my time. Thank you. 23


we would like to invite Ms. Teillet back up to represent 25

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Cr-Ex (TEILLET) 123

the Vancouver Sex Workers Rights Collective. Ms. Teillet 1

will have six-and-a-half minutes. 2

---CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. TEILLET: 3

MS. CARLY TEILLET: Tansi, bonjour, and 4

good morning again. 5

And I'd like to begin yet again, because 6

it's important to do so, to express my gratitude at being 7

home on the lands of the Métis people and on the territory 8

of Treaty 1 and acknowledge the women and girls that we 9

are carrying with us, their families, the survivors, the 10

Elders, the medicines, and the sacred items that are here 11

to help us do our work in a good way. 12

As mentioned, I'm Carly Teillet, and I am 13

Métis from the Red River community, and I have the honour 14

of being here as counsel for Collective and Indigenous 15

Women and LGBTQ and two-spirited individuals who engage in 16

sex work and trade in Vancouver's downtown east side. 17

When I started working in the downtown east 18

side of Vancouver, a story was gifted to me to think about 19

on the ground advocacy, and it was the story of the 20

hummingbird. That there was a huge forest fire and the 21

animals were all gathered together by a lake and they saw 22

a hummingbird go and take a drop of water out of the lake 23

and then fly back over and drop that water on the fire. 24

And the animals said, "Hummingbird, you're too small. One 25

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drop of water can't put out that fire. You might burn 1

your wings". And Hummingbird answered, "I have to do what 2

I can." 3

Now, I have to do what I can, I hear that 4

all of the time from my clients who are fighting to keep, 5

provide services, provide a healthy home, and to get back 6

their children. 7

And so again, I want to ask you about this 8

tool because I think this is a amazing decision and I 9

think that we could probably use it in so many different 10

ways. 11

And so I want to ask about how can these 12

women who faced so many barriers use this decision that 13

says there is public service discrimination, in your words 14

this morning, violating the rights of them, their 15

children, their families as a shield to help protect them 16

when social workers show up at their door and try and take 17

their children for neglect and poverty. 18

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: One of the things 19

that kind of surprised me in kind of the litigation 20

discourse is that there was never a case brought that I 21

know of where the legal argument was that the State had 22

failed to dispose of all alternative measures before 23

considering removal. Now, this wasn't -- and I really 24

want to reinforce this point -- this is not the fault of 25

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the social workers; right? I did child protection on the 1

frontlines for 13 years. I know that there are social 2

workers who are not good at their jobs, but I also know of 3

many who are good at their jobs. 4

But when you don't have the tools -- as the 5

Tribunal has already ruled, there weren't adequate 6

services at the front end to keep families together -- 7

then that's a contravention of the legislation. And I 8

have never heard of a -- provincial legislation, I'm 9

talking about, Child Welfare Act -- I have never heard a 10

legal argument where the State was asked to prove that in 11

light of this decision that it had exhausted all available 12

measures. I think that's something that is still open to 13

someone to bring a case like that. I'd be very interested 14

if the subject case were brought. 15

The other piece is to be able to cite the 16

passages in any kind of representation that you're making 17

to the child protection authorities. They're often aware 18

of the case, but sometimes not. And so on our website we 19

have really user-friendly things that break it down from 20

all the legal jargon down to stuff that a social worker 21

like me can understand, and the community members can 22

understand. They are actually written for children, so 23

everybody should be able to understand them. Use those 24

pieces in the decision to be able to do it. 25

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And then the other part of this process is 1

for all of us, always, to accept our responsibility to 2

change things that we know we need to change; right? So, 3

that -- the decision is about dealing with those things 4

beyond our ability to change as individuals, but we also 5

need to embrace our responsibility to change those things 6

that we know we need to do; right? And, sometimes you 7

need to access services to do that, particularly if it is 8

mental health or addictions, and that is where that -- 9

using the case under the least disrupted measures mandate 10

might be a useful thing to do. 11

MS. CARLY TEILLET: And so, building off of 12

that, my next question was actually about in court, when 13

this goes to court about the removal of the children. 14

Often, the court lists are so long and there are so many 15

cases to get through that you encounter a judge who may be 16

well meaning, but doesn’t have the time or the resources 17

to entertain a lawyer who wants to pull down or a family 18

who wants to pull down a human rights tribunal decision or 19

the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous 20

People and talk about that in that space. So, would you 21

agree that we need more time and other mechanisms where we 22

can actually have a full discussion about what is going on 23

in the families when we are removing children? 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes. Like, I mean, 25

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we got the Jordan case at the Supreme Court that deals 1

with, kind of, that kind of issue, the hardship on the 2

courts, and that quickly processing of these cases or not 3

processing them at all. I think that equally should apply 4

to family cases, and I think that they should be given the 5

time they need to have to make the best interest on behalf 6

of that child. 7

That said, I do not control the court 8

system, but I would love to see more resources go there. I 9

would love to see much more funding go to quality 10

representation for families and for children themselves, 11

because sometimes the family’s interests are not aligned 12

with what the child and the young person wants, and I 13

think children deserve their own representation in those 14

matters as well. And then, again, alternative dispute 15

resolutions outside of the litigation process itself. 16

MS. CARLY TEILLET: Thank you very much. 17

Those are my questions. 18


we would like to invite up the Native Women Association of 20

Canada. Ms. Virginia Lomax will have six and a half 21

minutes. 22

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. VIRGINIA LOMAX: 23

MS. VIRGINIA LOMAX: Thank you. I would 24

first like to acknowledge the spirits of our stolen 25

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sisters, as well as the families and survivors who are 1

with us in the room today, our elders and our health 2

support workers, and the medicines and sacred items in the 3

room with us. I acknowledge that we are on Treaty 1 4

territory and the homeland of the Métis nation today. 5

And, I thank you all for your hospitality and for your 6

welcome so that we can do our work in a good way today. 7

Dr. Blackstock, thank you for sharing your 8

testimony with us again. I had the privilege of hearing 9

you in Toronto as well. And, in both of your appearances, 10

you spoke about child engagement in the creation of 11

reports and plans, and I was wondering if you could 12

describe what that engagement entails. 13

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: It means just 14

talking to them. I think often we infantilize children; 15

right? We think that they don’t understand or can’t be 16

engaged in these issues, but my experience is completely 17

contrary to that. Kids are really open to talking about 18

hard stuff; right? It is often adults who are not open to 19

talking about the hard stuff, and that is why I find 20

children really are able to understand and to process 21

lessons of residential school so easily in the classroom, 22

because they are keen to learn, even about the stuff that 23

hurts. Because if they learn about the stuff that hurts, 24

then they can be a part of making it better. 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMAX) 129

The Caring Society has been very focused on 1

ensuring that all children, not just First Nations 2

children, all children have an opportunity to have their 3

voices heard about what they view about reconciliation, 4

and that that voice is heard, not just by us, but by the 5

people who are authorized in society to make the decision. 6

So, for example, we have, Have a Heart Day, where children 7

write letters to the prime minister or other elected 8

officials, so that they can -- First Nations kids can grow 9

up safely in their families, have a good education, be 10

healthy and proud of who they are. 11

We have also assembled children’s letters 12

and had those presented as part of our shadow report, the 13

UN Committee on the Rights of the Child. We brought six 14

First Nations young people to present directly to the 15

Committee on the Rights of the Child. We had children in 16

the courtroom while the -- in the tribunal room while this 17

case was being litigated. And, we actually have a peer 18

review journal that normally includes academic articles, 19

but we dedicate a couple of issues to children-only 20

submissions, where children are the peer reviewers. And, 21

I would have to say, with respect to my academic 22

colleagues, it is the kids’ version that is the most read 23

version of all the editions we put out. 24

MS. VIRGINIA LOMAX: I really do agree with 25

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Cr-Ex (LOMAX) 130

you, that children know more and understand more than they 1

are given credit for, and I think that this certainly 2

extends to two-spirit and LGBTQ children and gender 3

diverse children who have an understanding of their own 4

gender identity. And, I was hoping you would be able to 5

answer whether Indigenous two-spirit and LGBTQ children 6

and gender diverse children have been involved in 7

engagements that you have done, and if so, if you could 8

share any lessons that you have learned from them. 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, we involve all 10

children; right? And, it is an inclusive piece. And, 11

what we are trying to do is really create an environment 12

where children learn to be able to express their views as 13

they self-define them. So, not as they are dictated to by 14

adults. I even tell them, I don’t want you to believe the 15

inequalities exist just because I say so. I want you to 16

be like a newspaper reporter and go around and listen to 17

everybody, and then make up your own mind about what you 18

think. And then even after you have done that, if 19

something new happens, then you ask yourself, does that 20

change the way I think or feel about that? And so, we all 21

have to be open to learning. We can’t put a period at the 22

end of our sentence and become ideological. And, we try 23

to model that for the kids. 24

With regard to all children, what we are 25

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Cr-Ex (LOMAX) 131

trying to do is show them that difference is not to be 1

overcome, i.e. I often think that when we use the word 2

“difference overcoming”, it is a colonial thing. You have 3

got to come over to be the way that I am so I am more 4

comfortable. What I want is to hopefully work with these 5

children so that we celebrate difference, that we 6

understand that difference is not something that drags us 7

down as a human community, it is something that is 8

essential to lifting us up to our highest aspirations. 9

And, by teaching these children peaceful 10

and respectful ways of being heard, and indeed of making 11

real change, that they are able to apply that to a wide 12

array of injustices that they may experience throughout 13

their lives. 14

MS. VIRGINIA LOMAX: Thank you. When we 15

were in Toronto, I asked this question to other witnesses 16

and I would like to ask it to you. At that time, I had 17

heard this quote, and I forget the context that it was in, 18

but it was that -- the quote was, “I don’t know how better 19

to explain to you that you should care about other people 20

around you.” And, I have been feeling that very acutely 21

these days, and I would like to ask you if you had any 22

suggestions or recommendations for how, in the context of 23

what we are discussing today and throughout this Inquiry, 24

how can we inspire greater empathy among the general 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMAX) 132

public for the simple fact that Indigenous children face 1

discrimination in Canada that no other children are made 2

to face? 3

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, I can only say 4

what we have experimented with that the Caring Society had 5

some success with. And, that is to really be able to 6

educate Canadians on what is happening and give them 7

something they can do about it. And, what we found is 8

that people will respond to the call, but the 9

discrimination and this longstanding inequality has been 10

so normalized in Canadian society that many people cannot 11

see it. 12

And then the other thing that has happened 13

is we have a whole generation, who are currently the 14

generation who are the power holders, that have 15

legitimized the discrimination by saying First Nations, 16

Métis or Inuit people cannot manage their money for 17

example. And so, that is why my great hope lies in this 18

new generation and the generations to follow. If we can 19

raise a generation of First Nations, Métis and Inuit kids 20

who do not accept this inequality and a generation of non-21

Indigenous children that, no, it is not charity to give 22

First Nations, Métis and Inuit children an opportunity to 23

live the lives they wish to have. But, in fact, that an 24

injustice to those Métis, First Nations and Inuit children 25

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Cr-Ex (VAN BELLEGHEM) 133

is an injustice to all children, then we will have done 1

something for this country, then finally reconciliation 2

will grow. 3

MS. VIRGINIA LOMAX: Waleewen (phonetic). 4

Thank you. 5

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Next, we would like 6

to invite up Mishkeegogamang First Nation. Ms. Whitney 7

Van Bellegham will have six and a half minutes, please. 8

Oh, sorry, I stand corrected, she will have 11 minutes. I 9

apologize. 10

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: 11

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Thank you. 12

Good morning. 13


MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: I would like to 15

start by thanking the people of Treaty 1 for having us 16

here today. I would also like to thank the families and 17

the survivors that are here the elders, the Commissioners, 18

and the Inquiry staff, and of course those who are here to 19

provide us with such valuable information. 20

I would like to start by looking at the 21

2018 Spring Auditor General’s Report, which was, I 22

believe, Exhibit 64 in the Toronto hearing. This report 23

identified that Indigenous Services Canada, INAC, was 24

using a very limited assessment to measure a community 25

PANEL 2


well-being. 1

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Sorry, I am just 2

trying to find the tab. I am not going to try and eat up 3

your time. But, I don’t have it organized by exhibit 4

number. I have it just as organized by letter. 5

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: If we could stop 6

your time for a minute. Was it 2008 did you just say? 7

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: 2018. 8

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: 2018. 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, we had the 2008 10

one and I think we have the 2011 one, but I don’t recall a 11

2018. 12

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: I don’t think we 13

actually have -- yes, on the record. We have 2008, and 14

2011 was Exhibit 57. We did not put the 2018 Auditor 15

General’s Report on the record when Dr. Blackstock 16

testified in Toronto. 17

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: What was listed 18

as Exhibit 64? 19

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: That, I can answer. 20

Sorry, these binders are so large. It takes me a moment. 21

I have the list, but it’s at the front. 22

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: So, 23

Exhibit 64 is the 2018 Spring Report of the Auditor 24

General. 25

PANEL 2


MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Oh. The 1

Socioeconomic Gaps on First Nation Reserves? I stand 2

corrected. 64 is almost at the end. Sorry, I stand 3

corrected. We do have it as Exhibit 64. It’s such a 4

large book to tab through. 5

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, just bear with 6

me while I get there. I will catch up to you. Okay. 7

I’ve got it. 8

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And so, we can 9

start the time again, please. 10

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Perfect, thank 11

you. So, that report identified that Indigenous Services 12

Canada, or INAC, was using very limited assessment to 13

measure community well-being on First Nation reserves and 14

that it failed to include critical variables, such as 15

health, environment, language and culture. Would you 16

agree that the quality of and access to land should also 17

be a factor in assessing community well-being and health 18

on reserve? 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Certainly. That is 20

what we found in the PAHO Report, and I would agree with 21

that. I think that that is essential to children’s well-22

being. 23

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Would you also 24

agree that systemic discrimination and racism exist within 25

PANEL 2


INAC? 1


MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Earlier, you 3

indicated that massive institutional change is needed 4

within government departments, such as INAC, that are 5

working with First Nations. We know that government moves 6

painfully slow sometimes and that these issues need 7

immediate action. What changes can INAC implement 8

immediately to decolonize and eliminate discriminatory 9

practices? 10

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: With the Spirit Bear 11

Plan. It has been adopted by all the First Nations across 12

the country. There is no reason why they can’t do that. 13

And, what I said to the department is I said my little 14

organization, which has only been around, really, since 15

1999, we’ve had two independent 360 evaluations. I’m not 16

afraid of the truth. I welcome it, because it is not 17

being right, it is not about protecting my organization. 18

It is about ensuring that we are doing right. 19

And so, if there are things that we are not 20

seeing, even if -- or there are things that we are not 21

paying attention to that we should be doing, or if there 22

are things that we are doing that we could be doing 23

better, I want to know about that. And, I would hope that 24

the department would take that same point of view. 25

PANEL 2


And, that is why an independent 360 is so 1

important and that is why linking, as the Assembly of 2

First Nations put in its submission to the CHRT, linking 3

the performance bonuses, particularly of senior employees, 4

like the deputy minister, the privy counsel clerks, the 5

assistant deputy ministers, to their implementation of the 6

CHRT decision, to their implementation of UNDRIP is 7

absolutely essential. They need to be rewarded for doing 8

the right thing, not rewarded for protecting the status 9

quo. 10

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Thank you. I 11

would like to talk now a little bit about a report that 12

was introduced by another party with standing. That is 13

your report, which was Exhibit 26, I Want to Grow Up in My 14

Community: A Review of the Child and Family Service Act. 15


MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Would you agree 17

that most, if not all of the issues and concerns addressed 18

in this report, although they are tailored specifically 19

for the Northwest Territories, that they are applicable, 20

they are present and substantially similar across Canada? 21

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, I think most of 22

the cross-cutting themes and the remedies to them are 23

consistent across Canada. 24

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Thank you. You 25

PANEL 2


also indicate in that report that income plays a 1

significant role for families who have their children 2

removed. What can be done to ensure that low income and 3

poverty are not reasons why families lose their children? 4

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: So, for example, 5

there was a study in the United States, which I think I 6

cited in the last time I was here. I can get you the 7

exact citation. But, it was a pool of 14,000 families. 8

Half of the families got to keep an additional $100 U.S. 9

per annum. Half of the other -- the other half didn’t get 10

that. For the families that got just the $100 U.S. per 11

annum, the substantiated child protection rates went down 12

by 10 percent. So, that shows us would just moving 13

families just that little margin out of poverty what that 14

can do. 15

I would like to see minimum guaranteed 16

income be provided. I think that that would be a 17

substantial augmentation to the safety and well-being of 18

kids. And, I would also like to see an immediate stopping 19

of the process where governments -- when families are on 20

social assistance being on or off reserve, where if the 21

community members makes a little bit of money, where the 22

government’s process is to claw that back, that is 23

completely inconsistent with the evidence. 24

In fact, it shows that if you are able to 25

PANEL 2


leave that money, it probably would save the state a lot 1

of money in the long run, because what you are doing is 2

you are making -- helping the family get healthier, which 3

means that the children are going to be healthier, which 4

means that they are not going to be tapping into 5

government services at the same rates. And, those 6

arguments have been well made and well documented by 7

people, like the Nobel Prize winner, James Heckman, the 8

economist at the University of Chicago, by PAHO, by the 9

World Health Organization, by many others. 10


Perhaps that answers my next question to some extent, but 12

you have highlighted today, as well it is in the report 13

that we are speaking about, that poverty, poor housing and 14

substance misuse, until those issues are addressed and 15

properly resourced, that there is little evidence, I 16

believe the wording is, that substantial progress will be 17

made on making meaningful reductions in the 18

overrepresentation of Aboriginal children in care. 19

I would like to sort of focus on the issue 20

of implementation again. And, with the understanding that 21

these factors -- you know, improving on these factors 22

would likely involve a lot of moving parts, is there one 23

sort of first step that you can recommend that be taken to 24

improve upon these factors? 25

PANEL 2


DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think the Spirit 1

Bear Plan again to cost out all of those areas of 2

inequality that exist. We know them. Like, they have 3

often been written up in different reports, like the 4

Parliamentary Budget Officer in 2016 took on First Nations 5

education. What no one has done is take them all together 6

and then develop a plan, like the Marshall Plan after the 7

Second World War, to remediate all of the inequalities — 8

it is not enough to just deal with them one piece at a 9

time — to remediate all the inequalities, including in 10

housing and these other areas. If we did that, we could 11

make a substantive progress. 12

And, I don’t see any reason why we wouldn’t 13

move ahead with that, and I just -- or why the government 14

won’t move ahead with that. I would like to see them do 15

it today. It would be one of the most important 16

announcements that they could do. It would be one of the 17

most important steps they could take. 18

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Thank you. I 19

would like to talk now a little bit about provincial 20

legislation and the effects of that on Indigenous-run 21

child welfare agencies. In your report, you assert that 22

the requirement to follow provincial legislation and 23

standards can hamper Indigenous-run welfare agencies. Can 24

you provide some examples? 25

PANEL 2


DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Sure. I have 1

already spoken extensively about how problematic the 2

provincial and territorial definitions of neglect are, and 3

that they don’t account for that differentiation between 4

what parents can control and what they can’t control. 5

There is no real provision that really 6

seriously acknowledges multigenerational trauma. And, 7

also, there are -- there is not always a lot of statutory 8

support for culturally-based practices around children’s 9

wellness and family wellness, and I would like to see 10

those be brought in. 11

Some things are similar. Like, the -- you 12

know, dealing with sexual abuse, the definitions of sexual 13

abuse are consistent with what I have seen in First 14

Nations communities how they would define it. So, it is 15

not that the entire thing is problematic but that it’s 16

packaged in such a way that it doesn’t consider some of 17

the fundamental things that are absolutely key to doing 18

good work with First Nations, Métis, and Inuit families, 19

in my view. 20

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: And I heard you 21

mention there that lack of addressing intergenerational 22

violence in the legislation. Do you have any 23

recommendations as to how that could be done? 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, I think it 25

PANEL 2


would be good to be able to actually see it, first of all, 1

recognized in the statute. But second of all, when we get 2

back to that comment around least disruptive measures, 3

that we understand that that’s an important part of least 4

disruptive measures is ensuring that those community-based 5

programs to address multigenerational trauma are in place, 6

and that we include in our conceptualization of 7

multigenerational trauma, the multigenerational 8

inequalities that are referenced in the PAHO report. 9

That’s part of the trauma being passed down. 10

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Also in this 11

report you indicate that there were some alternative 12

approaches to the delegated agency system. You talked 13

about how some First Nations were developing their own 14

child welfare laws and practices. 15

So, again, it’s been eight years since the 16

publishing of this report and I’m wondering if you know of 17

whether or not these alternative approaches have been 18

implemented; and if they have, if they’ve had positive 19

outcomes? 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, there’s many 21

-- on a good news side, we have many more First Nations 22

who have completed the work and community consultations 23

that actually have their own laws drafted. So like the 24

Anishinabek Well-Being Law. 25

PANEL 2


The problem remains, however, that the 1

federal government continues to take the position that 2

it’s only willing to fund First Nations’ child welfare 3

agencies if they operate under provincial jurisdiction. 4

That needs to change. They need to say that they’re open 5

to these other pieces of legislation, especially when you 6

can see the law and judge for yourself that it’s not going 7

to compromise children’s safety, far from that. I think 8

it’s really going to augment children’s safety in many 9

cases. 10

That's not to say that self-government 11

exercise of jurisdiction in child welfare is right for 12

every First Nation. But it is to say that for those who 13

are ready and those who are wanting to do it and have the 14

law on the books, they should be given the support to be 15

able to exercise it. 16

MS. WHITNEY VAN BELLEGHAM: Thank you, and 17

that’s my time. 18




and Commissioners, I note that it’s almost 12 o’clock, and 22

I will take your direction on whether we should call more 23

cross-examination or take our one-hour lunch. 24

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: The vote 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMBARD) 144

is for lunch. 1

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Okay. So on that 2

basis, we will commence with the continuation of cross-3

examination at 1:00 p.m. 4

Thank you. 5

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Yeah, 6

good decision. You never want to get in the way of lunch. 7

(LAUGHTER) 8

--- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. 9

--- Upon resuming at 1:07 p.m. 10

---PANEL II, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED: 11

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Chief Commissioner, 12

Commissioners, if we could commence again, I would like to 13

invite up the next party for cross-examination. 14

I would like to invite up the Congress of 15

Aboriginal Peoples. Ms. Lombard will have six and a half 16

minutes for cross-examination. 17

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: Good afternoon. 18

Thank you to the Indigenous peoples of 19

Treaty 1 for welcoming us on your territory. 20

Elders, families, Commissioners, counsel, 21

and Dr. Blackstock, thank you for sharing your knowledge 22

today. 23

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ALISA LOMBARD: 24

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: Dr. Blackstock, as a 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMBARD) 145

mother of two girls, one toddler and one due to arrive in 1

the winter, there are no words to express the depth of my 2

gratitude for your work. It humanizes our babies, our 3

families, and our nations. Thank you for that. 4

The Supreme Court of Canada’s decision in 5

Daniels stands for proposition that the federal government 6

has jurisdiction in relation to non-status Indians and 7

Métis. The Supreme Court said that jurisdictional 8

uncertainty in this regard, and I quote: 9

“Results in these Indigenous communities being in a 10

jurisdictional wasteland with significant and obvious 11

disadvantaging consequences.” (As read) 12

In your testimony on June 13th in Toronto, 13

and building on what some of our colleagues have raised 14

here, you sated that, and I quote, “Canada has no adopted 15

a proper definition but has excluded non-status Indian 16

children and Inuit from the definition,” end quote, of 17

Jordan’s Principle. 18

You mentioned in your testimony that you 19

disagree with that and that the issue has been put to the 20

CHRT directly. 21

Is it fair to say that these exclusions are 22

discrete manifestations of normalized structural racism? 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think so, 24

particularly because Canada doesn’t provide an alternative 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMBARD) 146

to resolving the issue. 1

It would be different if they said, “This 2

is not the appropriate solution for this population to 3

resolve jurisdictional abuse, and here’s a workable 4

alternative that would even better meet the best interests 5

of children.” 6

But the proposition being put forward by 7

the federal government is that it doesn’t apply, but they 8

don’t provide an alternative solution that would remedy 9

the jurisdictional quagmire that these children find 10

themselves in. 11

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: Thank you. 12

Can you speak to your perception of the 13

rationale or intentions behind the incl -- exclusions? 14

Excuse me. Do you think that they’re intentional? 15

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: They are intentional 16

because they’ve said they’ve -- how did they put it? 17

Their interpretation of Jordan’s Principle is with regard 18

to these specific populations. So they’ve clearly thought 19

about it. 20

What the rationale is; I don’t understand 21

the rationale. Certainly I always come from the point of 22

view that it’s not the Indian Act who defines who First 23

Nations kids is; it’s themselves and being recognized by 24

their communities. 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMBARD) 147

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: Thank you. 1

Now on the intersect between non-compliance 2

or on the issue of non-compliance with the CHRT’s rulings, 3

bearing in mind the protections and state obligations in 4

the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and in 5

particular, Article 7 which provides for the right to 6

life, liberty, and security of the person; Article 12 7

which is right to no cruel and unusual treatment or 8

punishment, and Article 15 with respect to equal access to 9

and benefit of the law; non-discrimination, essentially, 10

equality, with a view to the precept of the honour of the 11

Crown, and most importantly understanding the non-neutral 12

and devastating consequences of Canada’s non-compliance 13

with CHRT’s rulings, and the work of Dr. Bryce which 14

provides the state with ample foreseeability, in addition 15

to your body of work, how do you make sense, if any sense 16

is to be made, of the delay, the lack of diligence, and 17

the meaningful implementation of rulings and 18

incontrovertible law that speak to clear state obligations 19

and Indigenous children’s rights to the substantive 20

predomination of their best interest? 21

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I can’t. I don’t -- 22

I don’t accept that it takes time, or any of these other 23

things. That’s not the response that First Nations 24

children want to hear, and it’s not the response that they 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMBARD) 148

deserve. 1

I would like to see full compliance 2

immediately. Not only with that but to end discrimination 3

that is applying in other areas, dimensions in children’s 4

lives, in education, early childhood, these other 5

programs. 6

I can’t speak for the government as to why 7

they chose not to comply or why they’re not moving with 8

dispatch to be able to remedy the full scale of the 9

discrimination. That’s a question for Canada because I 10

have no answer. 11

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: No. I struggle with 12

how to reconcile clear statements of the state’s 13

obligations, the human rights of Indigenous children and 14

families as also clearly stated, and the state’s blatant 15

failure to heed the rulings of their own institutions. 16

And so in that regard, if Indigenous peoples are left to 17

rely on the state’s political will, and the state delays 18

and fails to heed the diligence required of it in the face 19

of non-compliance orders from its own institutions, what 20

can be done? Where are the teeth; what tools do we turn 21

to? 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, I think we 23

need to -- you know, that’s why we tried to nest our case 24

within a public social movement so that you get that 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMBARD) 149

building of political will, because the politicians have 1

to respond to the Canadian public. If the Canadian public 2

demands better, then the discrimination will end because 3

it will no longer be tolerated, and no party that supports 4

it will be able to maintain its position and power. 5

But in my view, what I have said on the 6

non-compliance with the Tribunal's decision, is certainly 7

I can only speak for the Caring Society, but we were and 8

remain willing in -- to take Canada up on a contempt 9

charge. I know it's never been done, but neither has 10

taking them before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. 11

I recognize that they have made some 12

progress this last year, but progress is not really what 13

I'm looking for; I'm looking for full compliance. Because 14

they are legal orders, and we're talking about children in 15

a very sensitive stage of their development. 16

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: Thank you. You 17

mentioned this morning that you've been told that self-18

determination involves embracing what hurts. 19


MS. ALISA LOMBARD: And so what could that 21

mean with regard to creating mechanisms that may 22

contribute to the timely and diligent implementation of 23

rulings? 24

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I'm not sure what 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (LOMBARD) 150

you're getting at. In terms of? 1

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: Well, you mentioned 2

political movements --- 3


MS. ALISA LOMBARD: --- and so convincing 5

the Canadian population, the mainstream Canadian 6

population that these issues of discrimination are 7

unacceptable and something must be done. 8

And so what mechanisms could we have? What 9

types of institutions, perhaps Indigenous-led arising from 10

some kind of assertion of jurisdiction over the 11

administration of justice, might assist in that regard? 12

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think we have to 13

speak with one chorus across different types of movements. 14

That racial discrimination as public policy is -- and 15

fiscal policy -- is happening in Canada towards First 16

Nations children, and that there are solutions, and in 17

fact, legal orders that are intended to remedy that. That 18

a government is choosing to only partially or not at all 19

implement. 20

I think part of it is that there are -- 21

various movements become fragmented and that there isn't a 22

cohesive message being sent to the Canadian public about 23

the level of the discrimination, which to me is profound. 24

I see Canadians rising up against the discrimination in 25

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Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 151

the Civil Rights Movement or in Apartheid Movement in 1

South Africa, or indeed, against Trump's regressive policy 2

towards immigration or -- and the borders, the separation 3

of children and families. All of that is justifiably 4

offensive, but so is the discrimination happening in our 5

own country. 6

And Canadians need to understand that you 7

are not a patriot only when you show up on Canada Day with 8

a Maple Leaf painted on your face. That to be a true 9

patriot you need to defend the values of which this 10

country is premised the most. And those values include a 11

respect and honouring of First Nations' rights, including 12

the right to be able to raise their own kids, and for 13

those children to be able to live the lives they wish to 14

have. 15

MS. ALISA LOMBARD: Thank you so much. 16

Those are my questions. 17


we would like to invite up the Inuit Tupiriit Kanatami. 19

Ms. Zarpa has six-and-a-half minutes. 20

---CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ZARPA: 21

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Dr. Cindy Blackstock, 22

it's a pleasure to have the opportunity to hear you 23

testify again today here. 24

It's also a pleasure to spend my days here 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 152

on Treaty 1. I want to thank the Anishinaabe, Cree, 1

Oji-Cree, Dakota, Dene, and also the Métis people for 2

allowing me to be on your land all week. I acknowledge 3

the work of Annie and your ability to keep the Qulliq lit, 4

even though it's not your Qulliq. And I also acknowledge 5

that you do great work in making kamiks and teaching that 6

across the country. 7

Thank you for the people who facilitate the 8

pipe ceremonies in the mornings and the people from this 9

territory who have kept the medicines flowing over this 10

difficult week. 11

And lastly, thank you to the staff of the 12

Inquiry and also the Commissioners for your continued 13

work. 14

I am legal counsel representing Inuit 15

Tupiriit Kanatami, which is a national organization that 16

represents 65,000 Inuit across the land claims regions 17

known as Inuvialuit, Nunavut, Nunavik, and Nunatsiavut, 18

and also a growing number of Inuit in southern urban 19

centres like Winnipeg, Ottawa, Edmonton, St. John's, and 20

other urban centres across this big country. 21

My name's Elizabeth Zarpa. 22

There are hundreds and perhaps thousands of 23

Inuit who are forced to leave their communities in the 24

North to access universal healthcare in urban centres. 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 153

Despite the difficulties of their life, we have heard 1

there is little support within their own communities when 2

it comes to access to healthcare. 3

In Quebec City, Tracy Denniston, who is 4

Inuit from Nain, highlighted that pregnant women have to 5

leave their community at least a month before their due 6

date to give birth to their children. We heard in 7

Montreal that Inuit women in Nunavik left their families 8

and communities to go to Montreal to access healthcare. 9

The costs associated with flying from the North to the 10

South is in the thousands. The cultural contrast from a 11

community of a thousand to a few million is very stark. 12

We heard in Iqaluit also Inuit Elders are 13

sent down South to access Elder care away from home. 14

They're taken away from their communities and put into 15

urban centres where long-term care facilities are 16

available because it's not available within their own 17

territory at this time. 18

The common thread of these real lived 19

stories is that the people in them had to leave their 20

community for whatever reason, usually a lack of essential 21

service, and the predominant reason is because access to 22

safe universal healthcare services is not extensively 23

available in their own community. 24

And my question in this experience of 25

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Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 154

listening about Jordan's Principle, the aspirations like 1

the ones of Jordan's Principle is very relevant for Inuit 2

populations in Canada where Inuit have some of the highest 3

rates of suicide in the country and in the world. Inuit 4

have some of the highest rates of sexual assault in 5

Canada. And the median age of Inuit in Canada is 25. 6

And my questions to you, in regards to 7

this, is can you please indicate whether Jordan's 8

Principle can address these infrastructure or capacity 9

gaps, which I've highlighted above, and if so, how, and if 10

not, is this a completely different human rights issue? 11

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: To me, Jordan's 12

Principle is a reflection of the Charter. Had Canada 13

fully implemented the Charter there would have been no 14

need for Jordan's Principle because every child would have 15

been given equal access to services and had the ability to 16

live the life they wished to have. But it's because of 17

the failure of the government to adhere to the principles 18

of the Charter and the provision of its own services, that 19

Jordan's Principle arises. 20

We -- there is a provision for Jordan's 21

Principle to have group requests. So if you have a group 22

of children in one of your communities and they require a 23

service, then -- and it's in the best interests of those 24

children to get that service, then that could be funded 25

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Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 155

through Jordan's Principle. Also true for individual 1

cases, where there's an individual child that requires a 2

service in order to meet their best interests, and -- keep 3

in mind, it doesn't need to be available to non-Indigenous 4

kids; it has to be something that meets that child's best 5

interests and substantive equality, then yes, that service 6

should be provided. 7

So I personally feel that Jordan's 8

Principle could provide some relief to Inuit children in 9

Northern communities given the situations you describe. I 10

also say that there needs to be investments in these 11

communities over the longer run so that the -- we're not 12

using Jordan's Principle on a case-by-case basis or by 13

communities that contact us, but that the causes of these 14

inequalities are meaningfully addressed with Inuit-15

specific program solutions and they're sustainably 16

resourced. Because if we're able to achieve that, then 17

hopefully the number of Jordan's Principle type cases 18

would be reduced. 19

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Thank you for that. 20

And also, as it stands now, is the Government of Canada 21

legally bound by Jordan's Principle and its applicability 22

to Inuit and Inuit children? 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: That question is 24

kind of -- I'm not a lawyer by training, so for me, it's -25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 156

- certainly they're bound by First Nations children in the 1

legal order. But I would find it very surprising if 2

Canada was successful in arguing because the Canadian 3

Human Rights Tribunal or before the courts that a service 4

provided by First Nations and Inuit Health Branch is 5

somehow illegal for a First Nations child, but then okay 6

to deliver to an Inuit child without modification and 7

alignment with the order. 8

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Okay. Thank you for 9

that. And in applying -- trying to seek to apply the 10

Jordan's Principle in Inuit specific context, say for 11

instance, if an organization such as ITK wants to try and 12

apply Jordan's Principle for Inuit children travelling 13

from Inuit Nunaat down to say Ottawa. In the way that 14

Jordan's Principle works now do individuals have to pay 15

for things like accommodations and flights upfront and 16

then they seek reimbursement? Or is this something that 17

is paid for upfront by the individual service to help the 18

individual get to the hospital or to access health care? 19

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: It is an important 20

question. We have argued that it is not fair to put 21

families in a position often who have no money to try and 22

front the cost of services and then get reimbursed by 23

Canada. So, Canada has made available mechanisms for it 24

to direct pay for things like travel, et cetera. 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (BEAUDIN) 157

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Thank you, those are 1

my -- that is my time. 2


we would like to invite up the Regina Treaty Status Indian 4

Services. Ms. Beaudin will have six and a half minutes. 5

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ERICA BEAUDIN: 6

MS. ERICA BEAUDIN: Thank you. Good 7

afternoon. Meegwetch to the elders for the prayer, songs 8

and tending of the sacred fire and the qulliq. Once 9

again, I acknowledge Treaty 1 Territory and these lands 10

being the homelands of the Métis people. My name is Erica 11

Beaudin, and I hold the position of Executive Director of 12

the Regina Treaty Status Indian Services. 13

Ha-me-ah (phonetic) to Dr. Blackstock for 14

your testimony in Toronto, as well as this morning. I 15

can’t begin to tell you the esteem that I hold for you and 16

the inspiration you provide by your example for all of us 17

to do a little more and try a little harder. 18

I have enjoyed the conversation this 19

morning, especially the higher level discussions. I have 20

really learned a lot. However, my questions are going to 21

be a bit more on the ground, meant to assist those of us 22

who work directly with families and to gather your 23

perspective that may help us to change policies and 24

practices. 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (BEAUDIN) 158

Many First Nations kids in care are in 1

provincial systems by virtue of living off reserve. Many 2

of these kids live with non-Indigenous foster parents. In 3

Saskatchewan, where I live, there is little to no 4

obligation by the state to inform the First Nation one of 5

their members is in the provincial system. Do you believe 6

it should be mandatory that provincial systems be required 7

to inform First Nations, for example, a notice of 8

protection hearing, and for those First Nations to have 9

the opportunity to oversee in a formal manner the case 10

plan for the child or family to ensure that the child or 11

children are connected back to their nation and their 12

Indigenous identity? 13

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think it is -- 14

should be mandatory for First Nations to receive -- First 15

Nations, Métis and Inuit communities receive notification 16

and to be enabled to be able to not just receive the 17

report, but also to participate meaningfully in the 18

planning for the child and for that family. That also 19

includes the ability to design child and family and 20

community-specific services to meet the needs of those 21

children and those families, and, in some cases, the 22

extended family members, because there may be an extended 23

family member who needs some additional support in order 24

to care for the child or to provide additional support to 25

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Cr-Ex (BEAUDIN) 159

the parents. 1

MS. ERICA BEAUDIN: Do you believe this 2

would be another opportunity for provincial systems, as 3

well as our own nations, to be accountable to the child? 4

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, and I think 5

there needs to be accountability mechanisms put in place, 6

just as the First Nations laws, the ones that I have seen, 7

have in place. That it is not enough just to say that you 8

have the right and not be accountable to the child or the 9

family or the community at large for the exercise of that 10

authority. 11

I think the difference between what I would 12

like to see in First Nations child welfare versus the 13

current system is, one of my friends said that authority 14

is granted and power is asserted. And, I would like to 15

see our child welfare systems based on a position of 16

authority, that the authority is given. And, given that 17

it is given, it also can be receded if it is not properly 18

applied. 19

MS. ERICA BEAUDIN: Thank you. One of the 20

issues that many of our off reserve Indigenous families 21

have is they cannot survive on the amount of money they 22

receive from income assistance from the province. More 23

often than not, these families use child tax to pay for 24

better housing for the family. 25

PANEL 2

Cr-Ex (BEAUDIN) 160

When a child or children are apprehended 1

and go into short-term care, this assistance is cut, as 2

well as the child tax, and this often requires the 3

families to have to move. Their new living situation is 4

now a barrier to the family for getting their kids back. 5

Do you believe that when kids go into care, especially for 6

short-term situations, the provincial and/or federal 7

system should be responsible for the family to keep the 8

child’s home intact? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think that is part 10

of the least disruptive measures, and certainly there 11

should be a duty on a state to not worsen the risk factors 12

to kids. And, because for First Nations children there is 13

often a direct link between their housing conditions and 14

their predisposition to going into care, you certainly 15

don’t want to see provinces or territories or the federal 16

government doing things like reducing the shelter 17

allowance under social assistance or clawing back the 18

child tax benefit. Over the longer run, that might be a 19

different type of decision. But, for short-term stays, it 20

should be a non-starter. You don’t want to disable the 21

family even more through the intervention. 22

MS. ERICA BEAUDIN: Thank you. This 23

question is a bit different, however it is a situation 24

many human service delivery agencies, including mine, have 25

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Cr-Ex (BEAUDIN) 161

encountered. When a woman becomes incarcerated while 1

pregnant and then delivers her child while she is serving 2

time, the mother and child are separated within hours of 3

birth. Do you believe the correctional system should take 4

into account the well-being of both the mother and child, 5

and provide at the very least time for initial imprinting 6

and bonding for breastfeeding, example, colostrum after 7

birth? So, you know, at the very least two weeks to -- or 8

pardon me, two days to a week after the birth? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Unless there is some 10

really serious safety situation, which would be the very 11

small, small minority of cases, then yes, I think that 12

they absolutely should make available mechanisms to 13

support persons who are incarcerated to be parents. And, 14

it is not just women. It is men who are in prison too. 15

They don’t stop being parents when they are incarcerated. 16

And, I would like to see not only programs 17

in the prison system, but actually services, an enhanced 18

degree of services for children and families whose parent 19

or caregiver is incarcerated. Those kids need that 20

support, and the caregivers looking after those children 21

need support. 22

MS. ERICA BEAUDIN: Thank you. In our 23

agency, we are now working up to three generations of 24

survivors of family members of MMIWG2S. Definitely there 25

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Cr-Ex (BEAUDIN) 162

is a huge gap for under-aged children of MMIWG2S whereby 1

often times there is no one held accountable for the 2

missing or murdered person. Should the state hold 3

ultimate accountability for our MMIWG2S and should there 4

be survivors’ benefits for the children? And, should 5

these survivors’ benefits include a Canadian standard of 6

living compensation that provides opportunity for these 7

children to move out of the poverty cycle and further have 8

services available that addresses their unique trauma? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I can’t answer 10

specifically about what obligations the state would have 11

for compensation, because the circumstances of various 12

cases vary. What I do think the state has an undisputed 13

obligation to do is to fulfil UNDRIP and to fulfil the 14

U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child and fulfil its 15

charter obligations to children, which means that you act 16

in their best interest, you take into account the full 17

idea of substantive equality, and that you acknowledge and 18

you help ensure the full enjoyment of the rights under the 19

U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. 20

MS. ERICA BEAUDIN: Thank you very much. 21

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you, Ms. 22

Beaudin. Chief Commissioner, Commissioners, this 23

concludes the cross-examination component of Dr. 24

Blackstock’s testimony. As Commission counsel, I will 25

PANEL 2

Re-Ex (BIG CANOE) 163

actually use my right to re-direct, although I don’t 1

anticipate taking the full time. I would ask Mr. 2

Registrar to set to our standard 20 minutes, and I only 3

have one line of questioning. Before -- and, actually, 4

you can start the time. 5

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: One thing though, 6

Chief Commissioner, I would like to do is put on the 7

record for this hearing the Spirit Bear Plan. This 8

originally came onto the Inquiry’s record by Naomi 9

Metallic when we were in Québec City the first time. 10

However, for your ease of reference to what we have heard 11

today and the fact that Dr. Blackstock has multiple times 12

referred to the Spirit Bear Plan, I request that it be 13

made an exhibit to this testimony. 14


Certainly. Exhibit 28 will be the Spirit Bear Plan. 16

--- Exhibit 28: 17

Spirit Bear Plan (one page) 18



Counsel 21


--- RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: 23

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Dr. Blackstock, I 24

just have a couple of questions. So, essentially, at this 25

PANEL 2


point, when I do re-direct, it is based on the questions 1

my friends and colleagues have asked you just to provide 2

some clarity or follow-up. A number of my friends 3

actually raised some really great questions, so it is 4

actually a theme I want to explore with you. You know, 5

first, with Ms. Dunn, Ms. Symes, Ms. Lomax and even as 6

recently as the last couple, there has been this focus on 7

raising political or public will. 8

And so, I would like to explore that just a 9

little with you, and I want to contextualize it in your 10

experience of the First Nation Caring Society case. So, I 11

understand that during the case, you actually testified as 12

a witness as well? 13

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, several times. 14

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Several times. 15

Were there also government witnesses that testified at the 16

proceedings? 17


MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Okay. And so, in 19

your experience, and to the best of your recollection, did 20

you find evidence was forthcoming or did you find that the 21

parties had to spend a lot of time getting all of the 22

witnesses to build the good record? 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Well, the government 24

was not forthcoming with the information, because we 25

PANEL 2


actually had a disclosure issue with them, where the 1

hearing started and we found through access to information 2

that they had failed to disclose 90,000 records that were 3

critical to the case, and many of those were highly 4

prejudicial and were actually very essential to the 5

tribunal’s eventual finding of discrimination on both 6

counts, on Jordan’s Principle and child and family. 7

Having that full disclosure was also 8

essential for us to be able to appraise the testimony of 9

the government witnesses and to also bring to their 10

attention key documents that would further illuminate the 11

truth. And, I felt that that was an essential part of the 12

process, is that full disclosure. Not redacted documents, 13

not partial disclosure, but complete disclosure. And, the 14

only documents that we were okay with them being redacted 15

is if they referenced an individual child, that child’s 16

name, and of course that personal privacy should be 17

respected. But, otherwise, I think everything should be 18

on the table. 19

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you. And, 20

the reason I ask that is to contextualize that it was a 21

long -- like we have all heard, 2007 until just most 22

recently, February 2018, we are talking about a long 23

litigation process. And, I think we talked about the 24

width of this binder about being six inches, but that that 25

PANEL 2


proceeding had about 17 of these binders? 1

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yes, about 17 of the 2

binders. That is just what we entered into evidence, that 3

is not just the disclosure. 4

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Right. And so -- 5

and the disclosure was much larger than that? 6

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Oh, yes. It was 7

probably in total 120,000 documents. Not 120,000 pages; 8

120,000 documents, of which I think I personally read 9

about 80,000. I did not make it the other 40,000. 10

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Wow. And, the 11

context for those two though, and I take this back to this 12

conversation we are having about -- I know Ms. Symes put 13

to you, you know, Ellen Gabriel said litigation is the 14

only way, and you have told us that, you know, you try to 15

act -- you are clear that you cannot just rely on good 16

will, that you have to go through this process to ensure 17

that you can actually raise up the public will or the 18

political will, and that litigation is not necessarily the 19

only option. 20

And so, we have talked a number of times 21

now and heard you say, if we can get the public engaged 22

and understand these issues, then we could push political 23

will. So, from the perspective of the Commission of 24

Inquiry, how do we as a Commission, engage the public to 25

PANEL 2


the extent that they can understand the parameter of this 1

issue? Because I look around this room and I see engaged 2

parties with standing that represent organizations that 3

are at the heart of this issue, and I see families who, 4

with lived experience, do not need to hear what you have 5

to say --- 6


MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: --- with no 8

disrespect. 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Oh, no. Well, a lot 10

of what I have said have been said a hundred years ago; 11

right? 12

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Yes. But, what can 13

you assist the Commissioners with, and the Commission in 14

general, in how we can actually engage the rest of the 15

public, so that we can lift the public will or that 16

political will, so that when they make recommendations, 17

people will not only hear them, but they will act on them? 18

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think one of the 19

key things you need to understand is how to frame the 20

message. And, certainly, that is something I struggled 21

with. I thought it was pretty self-evident that, you 22

know, these little kids were getting less and that is 23

wrong; right? That to me was, like, an obvious issue. 24

But, what I was not that successful at is 25

PANEL 2


actually framing the issue in a way that the general 1

public could understand it, because people assume that 2

everybody was being treated equally. Not only were First 3

Nations people were treated equally, but they were getting 4

more benefits because they are First Nations kids. So, 5

this message about not being treated equally was coming up 6

against that stereotype. 7

And, what I found very, very helpful is 8

looking at the work of George Lakoff, who is a linguist in 9

how to frame things, and also the FrameWorks Institute in 10

the United States, is how do you frame something so that 11

people can get it; right? And, the basic premise is to 12

nest it into deeply held values. 13

So, for example, our message at the Caring 14

Society is so that every First Nation child can grow up 15

safely in their families, get a good education, be healthy 16

and proud of who they are. No matter if you are from 17

another country or from another culture, everyone 18

understands that. And, it also is very hard to be on the 19

other side of that question, are you going to argue to me 20

that First Nations kids should not get an equal chance to 21

grow up with their families, should not have a good 22

education, should not be healthy or proud of who they are? 23

Very few people would do that. So, it is knowing how to 24

use that framing is really important and I really commend 25

PANEL 2


to you those works of Lakoff and the FrameWorks Institute. 1

The second thing I think is really 2

important is give the public something they can do. You 3

know, often we go out and we talk about things, but we do 4

not give the general public something they can actually 5

do. And, here is the two provisos, number one, it needs 6

to be free. I am absolutely against an NGO or a type of 7

public inquiry approach that limits people’s public 8

participation to their wallet; right? 9

Like, we have to understand that every 10

person has the ability and agency to make a positive 11

change in their community. So, that is why we, at the 12

Caring Society, have seven free ways that anybody of any 13

age can do to make a difference. The other piece is time 14

limited, so all these things take under two minutes to do, 15

because we acknowledge that people with busy lives may not 16

have more than that to give. But, if all they do is those 17

seven things in under two minutes, that is something more 18

than many Canadians had an opportunity to do in the past. 19

So, I would direct some of your 20

recommendations to the general public, using that framing 21

and using that idea that all persons, regardless of 22

income, regardless of age, should be able to a part of 23

achieving a vision that really is not just going to uplift 24

murdered and missing Indigenous women, or their families 25

PANEL 2

Questions (EYOLFSON) 170

or their communities, but is indeed essential for all of 1

us to live in a just society that we want any child to 2

grow up in. 3

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: Thank you. Those 4

are my questions. This concludes the examination. 5

However, the Commissioners, Dr. Blackstock, will likely 6

have some questions for you as well. 7

--- QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: 8

COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: Thank you. 9

First of all, Dr. Blackstock, thank you very much for 10

coming and sharing your evidence with us both in Toronto 11

in June and here today. I had some questions for you 12

related to the non-compliance with the Canadian Human 13

Rights Tribunal decision, and as well political will, but 14

a lot of those questions have been already asked by 15

parties with standing and Commission counsel as well, so I 16

think I just have a few follow-up questions related to 17

that. 18

First of all, just to be clear, the 19

government did not appeal or seek review of the Canadian 20

Human Rights Tribunal decision, did it? 21

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: No, it did not -- it 22

did file an appeal on one of the Jordan’s Principle 23

orders, but then retracted that before it ever went to 24

hearing. What it did is, it did not seek judicial review, 25

PANEL 2


which actually, frankly, I would have preferred if their 1

idea was that they were not going to comply. Instead, 2

what they did is they chose not to comply and relied on 3

the fact that there is no enforcement mechanism imbedded 4

right in the Canadian Human Rights Act to force it to 5

comply. That was the strategy out of the gate. 6

COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: Right. Okay. 7

Thank you for clarifying that. 8

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Quite frankly, I do 9

not know of another Canadian Human Rights case where non-10

compliance by the respondent has been a problem. So, that 11

is probably why it was not in the Act, but clearly if 12

there is revisions of the Act, that is something to be 13

considered, that it should be in there. 14


And, I believe you also referred to the recommendations in 16

the TRC report that deal with child welfare, the first 17

five recommendations. I am wondering if you are able to 18

comment on the status of the implementation of those 19

recommendations --- 20

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Right. 21

COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: --- at this 22

point. 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I think it was 24

really important to acknowledge that of all the 25

PANEL 2


recommendations that survivors could have put forward as 1

the top recommendation, because clearly there are many, 2

they chose the child welfare as the top recommendation. 3

And, the way that I make sense of that is that 4

reconciliation at the end of the day is not saying sorry 5

twice. They did not want to see this happening to their 6

grandchildren, and I heard that from testimony after 7

testimony, not only of residential school survivors, but 8

also of Sixties Scoop survivors. And, I think that is why 9

it is the top recommendation. 10

So, the TRC recommends equity, and I think 11

that, thanks to the tribunal, and partial credit to the 12

government because they are beginning to comply under 13

Minister Philpott, we are starting to see that happen 14

although the drivers of the discrimination, poor housing, 15

et cetera, that is yet to be properly remedied. There has 16

been some progress on that. There has been some opening, 17

federally, to legislation and child welfare. We will have 18

to see if that gets done in time for the next election, 19

because I am worried about the time frame for that and the 20

ability to have fulsome consultations on that. That would 21

answer in part the recommendation around national 22

standards. 23

And, I would also say that, you know, on 24

national standards, certainly things like safety and well-25

PANEL 2


being of the child should be non-negotiable, but I think 1

we have to be cautious around developing national 2

standards that may tread on the unique context and 3

cultural context of various communities too. So, there is 4

that delicate balance there between what things we can 5

make universal and what things really need to be left to 6

the respect of those distinct cultures and communities. 7

On Jordan’s Principle, they are getting 8

closer to compliance, but we still have some outstanding 9

concerns, and that, of course, is their number 3 call to 10

action. 11

COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: Right. Okay. 12

I also wanted to ask you about -- you talked about the 13

Joint National Policy Review that concluded in June of 14

2000? 15


COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: And, the 17

first recommendation being that Canada expand its 18

jurisdictional model beyond the delegated model. And, you 19

had testified, I think, that it has been 18 years and they 20

haven’t moved on that. And, are you aware of any reason 21

that the government has given for not moving on that 22

recommendation or have any insight as to why it doesn’t? 23

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: We have been raising 24

that -- we are part of what is called the Child Welfare 25

PANEL 2


Consultation Working Group, which arises from the 1

Tribunal’s recent ruling where they said it is not enough 2

to engage with people. Like, what does engagement mean; 3

right? That was always my question. I never knew what 4

“engagement” meant. I did know what consultation meant, 5

at least under the UNDRIP context and within the rulings 6

of the Supreme Court. I was much more comfortable using a 7

word I actually mean, that I know. 8

And so, the Tribunal ordered them to 9

consult with us through the parties of the proceeding. 10

And, in that particular piece, we have been asking 11

questions. Why aren’t you acting on that 18-year-old 12

recommendation? What else do you need to know in order to 13

implement that recommendation that you don’t currently 14

know? 15

All they will say is that they will do it 16

and they will consider it at the next round of the review 17

of the terms and conditions. I am still unsatisfied with 18

that answer. I don’t understand why they haven’t acted on 19

it or what information they need in order to act on it. 20

And, it concerns me when they use that and they don’t -- 21

they aren’t clear about why they are not doing something, 22

or at least not able to communicate that in a convincing 23

way. 24

Because what I have said to them is, if you 25

PANEL 2


tell us what you need to know that you don’t already know, 1

we might well be able to answer those questions for you 2

and remediate those concerns. But, that information has 3

not been forthcoming from the government and that has been 4

disappointing to me, especially given that I see some 5

very, very promising pieces of legislation already on the 6

books for First Nations. They are just ready to make a 7

difference for kids. 8


And, just one last question, a number of times in your 10

evidence, you referred to Touchstones of Hope --- 11


COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: --- but I 13

don’t think you have clarified what that -- what those 14

are. Could you just clarify that? 15

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Sure. This was a 16

process that was actually convened by a number of us back 17

in the early 2000s who felt that there needed to be a 18

series of principles and a process to re-base child 19

welfare on for Indigenous children. So, we gathered 20

together a group of Native Americans, Alaskan Natives, 21

Native Hawaiians, First Nations, Métis and Inuit from 22

Canada, as well as some of our non-Indigenous allies, and 23

we came up with five principles upon which child welfare 24

should be based. Now, this is from the collective of 250 25

PANEL 2


people, so this was a conference. It wasn’t meant to 1

educate anyone. It was actually to draw the wisdom out 2

that was already in the room. 3

So, there is self-determination. And then 4

there is culture and language. And, there, we are not 5

just talking about respect for Indigenous cultures and 6

languages. We are talking there about a recognition that 7

the current child welfare system already has a culture and 8

a language, and that that is often a Western culture and a 9

language that is often sometimes at odds with the 10

experiences of Indigenous peoples. 11

Structural interventions. I have talked a 12

lot about that today. Getting at those factors that 13

families can’t control on their own, but still place 14

children at risk. Poverty, poor housing, those kinds of 15

things. The discriminatory service regime. 16

Holistic response. Again, I have spoken 17

about that several times today that it is not enough to 18

develop a child welfare approach, or indeed I would argue 19

a murdered and missing Indigenous women’s approach in the 20

absence of a more holistic approach that takes into 21

account the societal situations that give rise to those 22

problems. And, we also want to look at children not just 23

as children; right? They are not going to be that way 24

forever. Really what we are doing is, as the elders would 25

PANEL 2


say, is we are raising ancestors; right? And so, we need 1

to take that longer term view of how do we set in play a 2

healthy life for that child and their descendants 3

throughout their lifetime? 4

So, that is four. Non-discrimination. So, 5

that speaks directly to Jordan’s Principle. And, I am 6

missing one of them. Let me see here. Self-7

determination, holistic response, structural 8

interventions, non-discrimination culture and language. 9

No, I got them all. And so, those are the principles, and 10

then they are set within a four-phase process of 11

reconciliation. 12

So, the first is truth-telling, and that 13

speaks to what counsel was just raising about full 14

disclosure. If you are really interested in the best 15

interest of children, you have got to be willing to be 16

proven wrong. It is not about being right. It is about 17

doing right. And, you can only do right when all of us 18

put all of our cards on the table, and that means all of 19

our mistakes on the table too. And, that we are prepared 20

to own those and we are prepared to learn from them. So, 21

truth-telling is an essential precondition to being able 22

to engage in reconciliation. 23

Then, the second place is acknowledging, 24

which is kind of related to what I talked about truth-25

PANEL 2


telling. You tell the truth, but acknowledgment is owning 1

the truth and owning your duty to learn from the truth; 2

right? Which is what, I would argue, governments have 3

skipped over, is, to some degree, they have acknowledged 4

the truth of residential schools, but they haven’t learned 5

from it. They haven’t asked themselves, what did we learn 6

from residential schools? What did we learn from the 7

Sixties Scoop? What did we learn from the CHRT? And, how 8

has that changed our philosophy and our way of working? 9

And, how do we get invigilated so that we don’t lapse back 10

into those old unhealthy patterns? So, that is 11

acknowledging. 12

And then -- so we have truth-telling; we 13

have acknowledging; we have restoring. And, restoring 14

acknowledges that you can never make up for what has been 15

taken away, but surely there are some things that you 16

could put in place that provides some relief to those you 17

have harmed. And, where that is possible, you should do 18

that; right? For me, for example, the first question you 19

asked me about recognizing First Nations self-20

determination and laws, that is part of restoring. That 21

would be a legitimate step in that direction. 22

The final is relating, and that is to 23

understand that colonialism is kind of like a bad virus 24

that you can -- with a lot of intent and treatment, you 25

PANEL 2

Questions (BULLER) 179

can get rid of the worst kinds of symptoms of it for a 1

short-term. But, if you are not mindful and if you are 2

not open to having yourself critiqued on the longer term, 3

it can resurface and flare up again. And, relating is 4

that shared responsibility we all have to ensure that 5

colonialism does not reoccur. 6

So, that -- the Touchstones of Hope 7

process, those are the principles, that is the process. 8

But, the intent was that those would always be given life 9

at a community level. So, what we do is we invite 10

community members to actually answer the question, what is 11

a healthy, say, Gitxsan family or child in line with those 12

principles? And, that is where those visions come in and 13

the implementation plans of those visions. So, it really 14

is a reclaiming of the dream centred on principles that 15

have been well known to elders and community knowledge 16

holders for many, many, many years as being essential to 17

children’s well-being. 18

COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: Thank you 19

very much for your evidence and for answering my 20

questions. I appreciate it. 21

--- QUESTIONS BY CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: 22

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: I want 23

to start with the Spirit Bear Plan with just a few 24

questions. As it is laid out now, it appears to be 25

PANEL 2


directed at the federal government. What, if any, 1

applicability does the Spirit Bear Plan have with respect 2

to provinces and territories? 3

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I would argue that 4

it should be implemented by all of them as well. I mean, 5

clearly the Caring Society, our work is at a national 6

level and we will have to defer to the views of First 7

Nations who are in these regions. But, I see a lot of 8

need for the provinces and the territories to reform 9

themselves so they can take advantage of the many 10

solutions that have been put to them as well. 11

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Okay. 12

And, you just said a few moments ago that you have seen or 13

you know of legislation that is on the books that will 14

make a difference for Indigenous children. Can you give 15

us a hint? 16

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Sure. The 17

Anishinabek Child Well-Being Law is a great example. And, 18

in fact, it is not even just on the books. You can go 19

onto their website; you know? They're so transparent. 20

They've got it there and they're willing to share it with 21

people. So you'd be able to get a copy of the law from 22

there. Also, Cowichan Tribes has got a good draft of 23

their legislation. 24

So those are a couple of examples of 25

PANEL 2


legislation that's already been drafted and/or completed 1

that you could take a look at. 2


Thank you. This is almost a rhetorical question. In 4

looking at the government's response to the Human Rights 5

Tribunal rulings, a series of rulings, and the lack of 6

implementation or slow implementation, does that go to 7

fear? Fear of economic -- a change in economic order and 8

a change in social order? 9

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: I thought a lot 10

about why. Why if I was on the government's side would I 11

not do this? Because this seems to be one of the good 12

things about the Tribunal, and I think owes a lot of 13

credit too to the NMIW and also the TRC movements, is I 14

think Canadians want them to implement the decision; 15

right? There's been a lot more awareness, and people 16

really want them to do it. So the political cost of them 17

not doing it doesn't seem to be worth the trouble. 18

I do think it has something to do with 19

control. I remember when we were at the Touchstones of 20

Hope, there was a very progressive and thoughtful 21

non-Indigenous man, and he said, "The problem with control 22

is that you can say you're willing to give it up, but when 23

you get frustrated or angry it's so easy as a reflex to 24

take back". And that's why they need that independent 25

PANEL 2


360. They don't know how to give up control. And I think 1

when it comes to child welfare, and I extend this to the 2

provinces and territories... 3

I remember one of my good friends, Deborah 4

Foxcroft, who was the founder of Usma Child and Family 5

Services, and of course later was former -- past president 6

of the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council, said, you know, I 7

thank you for wanting to look after our kids. And I know 8

that you're worried that we're going to screw up, and we 9

probably will, but we can do it. And what I would add to 10

that is when people -- governments are worried that we're 11

going to screw up, is it yes, we might screw up, but we 12

have survived our own mistakes for thousands of years. We 13

may not survive theirs. The evidence is very good that we 14

may not survive their mistakes. And it's time for them to 15

learn how to give up control and to understand that it's 16

not going to be chaos on the other side. That we demand 17

much more of ourselves than that. 18

And I think about Dr. Bryce a lot too, 19

because what some people don't know is his great 20

grandchildren are Inuit. And I think about the duty we 21

owe to people like Dr. Bryce to actually realize their 22

efforts of resistance, both on the First Nations, Métis, 23

and Inuit side, but also non-Indigenous people like him 24

for this generation of children. Because we are, as the -25

PANEL 2


- Prime Minister Harper said, sowing the seeds for 1

generations to follow, and who knows what those seeds will 2

be. 3

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Thank 4

you. Then finally, going to the document, it's 5

Exhibit 66, I think, the document about cost drivers. It 6

was Tab S. I'm sorry, I'm flipping through. Oh, yeah, a 7

variety of documents here. 8

I don't know if it's a proper 9

interpretation of the document as a whole, but to say that 10

this document stands for the proposition that any money 11

that is going to go to child welfare, any so called new 12

money going to child welfare and child welfare reform is 13

going to be taking away from other places, such as housing 14

or other types of infrastructure. Not that -- it's a 15

matter of just re-dividing the pie, not changing the pie 16

itself. Would that be a fair way of describing that? 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Absolutely. And in 18

fact, one of the things we -- this is a document that was 19

actually tendered at the Tribunal's evidence. That's why 20

it appears in its full form. And what we found is overall 21

Canada was transferring $98 million primarily under the 22

infrastructure budget that funds schools, water systems, 23

and housing for First Nations communities to try and shore 24

up its underfunded education and child welfare programs. 25

PANEL 2


And we said that's really akin to shuffling 1

deck chairs on the Titanic, because one of the key drivers 2

for First Nations kids going into to child welfare is 3

inadequate housing. So when you deepen the housing crisis 4

you're actually putting more kids at risk. 5

And so as the Auditor General said back in 6

2008, and in numerous reports since then, the answer isn't 7

just shuffling around the deck chairs on the Titanic, the 8

answer is to properly budget for all of these programs 9

based on the needs of the children and their communities. 10

And that's why the Tribunal in the February 2018 order 11

actually ordered Canada to not unnecessarily re-allocate 12

because it wasn't helping kids, it was not in the best 13

interests of kids to be able to do that stuff. 14


So that brings me back to the testimony that you've given, 16

as well as to a certain extent, the Spirit Bear Plan, 17

where you've said do a proper accounting of what needs to 18

be spent and develop a plan with timeframes. 19

The Spirit Bear Plan and the full 20

accounting is moving forward, it's looking to the future, 21

it's not retroactive or retrospective. Is that correct? 22

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: It could be 23

retrospective. For example, the Tribunal's decision in 24

and of itself has gone retroactive on a couple of these 25

PANEL 2


issues, like with Jordan's Principle, et cetera, to try 1

and restore the losses that some children would have had 2

had Canada not discriminated. 3

The Spirit Bear Plan is more kind of 4

addressing things and going forward and really about let's 5

not repeat the same mistakes. But certainly it would be 6

open to people, and I hope a -- and there would be a 7

strong moral and if not legal case to say to Canada that 8

now you know all these kids were shortchanged, what are 9

you going to do in a spirit of reconciliation to try and 10

restore some of those losses. 11

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Right. 12

Because if I understand it correctly, the Spirit Bear Plan 13

is more than just making it dollar for dollar. 14

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Exactly. 15

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: It's a 16

dollar plus. 17

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: It's a substantive 18

equality lens. It is meeting the needs of those kids, 19

taking full account of their historical disadvantage and 20

their distinct culture and linguistic needs. And a 21

historical disadvantage, also contemporary disadvantage 22

owed to the ongoing inequalities and injustices they may 23

be experiencing. 24

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: So 25

PANEL 2


having said that, it would be a temptation for government 1

or governments, plural, to just simply make it dollar for 2

dollar. You're saying that's still -- it might not be the 3

Titanic, but it's still shuffling deck chairs on a ship? 4

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Yeah. And it's not 5

addressing the inequality in outcomes. And we all -- we 6

have good law and good examples to show that where people 7

are particularly not having the same opportunity to live 8

the lives they wish they had, they should have 9

accommodation. For example, in the disabled community, 10

right, there is an obligation on states to not just make a 11

flight of stairs, but you got to make sure it's accessible 12

to all persons to be able to actively participate in that 13

event. 14

This is the same kind of thing. When you 15

have piled trauma and inequality on children, you can't 16

all of a sudden just turn around and say we're going to 17

give you the same thing as other children who have not had 18

that same disadvantage. I can see the temptation there, 19

but certainly someone like myself, and I agree, I think 20

many others would say that that is a perpetuation of the 21

inequality, and that's why Justice Frankfurter says 22

there's no greater inequality than the equal treatment of 23

unequal's, is because you are just continuing to -- by 24

providing equal treatment, you're just continuing that 25

PANEL 2


gap. It's not getting smaller. 1

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Those 2

are my questions. I think what we can do at this point is 3

-- I just would like to take a one minute or less break to 4

just confer with my colleague here to make sure that we've 5

covered everything off. So just -- we'll take one moment, 6

please. 7

(SHORT PAUSE/COURTE PAUSE) 8

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Thank 9

you. We have covered -- we have covered off what we 10

wanted to cover off with you, Dr. Blackstock. 11

So I know we said goodbye to you once 12

before but it really wasn’t goodbye in the final sense. 13

Once again, you have changed our view of 14

what we need to do. What you said has made a big 15

difference, not only to our work but I think to not only 16

the people in the room here but people who are watching 17

online. It’s that education piece that the public knows 18

that it isn’t the same, it isn’t better; it’s worse, and 19

it has to change for children. Because as you said, we’re 20

raising our ancestors right now. 21

So thank you very much for coming back to 22

us. Thank you also for making a difference. 23

And we know you have really hard work to 24

do, and we think that you need a second eagle feather. 25

PANEL 2


Spirit Bear got the first one, I know. So both of you 1

have the opportunity to be lifted up during those moments 2

when you need to be lifted up, and I’m sure there are many 3

of them, and to help you during those moments when you can 4

soar higher than you thought you could, and I hope you 5

have lots of those moments. 6

So on behalf of all of us here thank you so 7

much for your time, for your knowledge, your wisdom, your 8

humour, your insight, and for making a better place for 9

all of us. 10

DR. CINDY BLACKSTOCK: Thank you. It’s 11

been a privilege, really, truly. 12

And I’d like to honour the survivors and 13

their families and the murdered and missing Indigenous 14

women; they are truly the great heroes and the persons to 15

whom we all owe a great debt, and that debt is only paid 16

by implementing all the recommendations that will come 17

from this Commission. 18

I look forward to seeing that day. 19

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Me too. 20

Thank you. 21

(APPLAUSE) 22

MS. CHRISTA BIG CANOE: And, Commissioners, 23

as you’re gifting this eagle feather, there’s been a 24

special request, and I ran it by Grandmother Thelma, and I 25

PANEL 2


would like to invite up the parties. 1

There has been talk that we would like to 2

honour Dr. Blackstock with the Warrior Woman Song, and so 3

I want to invite any of the public or any of the parties 4

that want to join us in singing the Warrior Woman Song to 5

Dr. Blackstock to please, please feel free to come up to 6

the front and to join us in a circle to do that. 7

(SHORT PAUSE) 8

(SINGING WARRIOR WOMAN SONG) 9


and Commissioners, I’m wondering if we anticipate Susan 11

Aglukark. We were originally anticipating her to being 12

here at 3:00. I have asked counsel leading her evidence 13

to see if we could start sooner. 14

So on that basis, I’m going to ask if we 15

can break until 2:30. 16

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Sure. 17

We’ll take our afternoon break, then, until 2:30. 18


--- Upon recessing at 2:10 p.m. 20

--- Upon resuming at 3:02 p.m./L'audience est reprise à 21

15h02 22

MS. JENNIFER COX: Parties with standing, 23

my name is Jennifer Cox, and I am Commission counsel. And 24

I'm here with Susan Aglukark. And before we get started 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 190

with Susan's evidence, we're going to have Susan share her 1

intentions in Inuktitut, rather than swearing an oath. So 2

Commissioner Robinson, and Susan, please take it away. 3

SUSAN AGLUKARK: (Speaking in Inuktitut) 4

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: And for the 5

record, the Commissioners and I accept Ms. Aglukark's 6

statement of her intentions as an oath to tell the truth 7

and we can continue. Nakurmiik. 8

---EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. COX: 9

MS. JENNIFER COX: So Commissioners, 10

parties with standing, it was my intention to have 11

Ms. Aglukark qualified as an expert and knowledge keeper, 12

specifically, an expert in fine arts with a focus on song 13

writing based on her lived experienced in the Canadian 14

music industry, and her academic experience as well. 15

She also -- I'm seeking to also have her 16

qualified as a knowledge keeper based on the Inuit 17

cultural practices and the work she is doing with the 18

Arctic Rose Foundation, also, again, founded primarily on 19

her lived experience. 20

So the parties and the Commissioners were 21

provided with the outline of Susan's resume, which would 22

be Tab C of the materials, and there is also a bio or a 23

backgrounder, which was Tab A to the materials. 24

So I'm going to seek to have the resume or 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 191

the CV, which is Tab B, marked first as an exhibit, and 1

the bio or backgrounder, which is marked Tab A, as the 2

second exhibit, Chief Commissioner. 3


The CV that is found at Tab B, and just for the record, 5

it's one page, is Exhibit 29. 6

--- EXHIBIT NO. 29: 7

CV of Susan Aglukark, O.C. (one page) 8

Witness: Susan Aglukark 9

Counsel: Jennifer Cox, Commission 10

Counsel 11

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: And then 12

the back – bio/backgrounder that's found at Tab A, bio 13

backgrounder of Susan Aglukark will be Exhibit 30. 14


Biography & backgrounder of Susan 16

Aglukark (two pages) 17



Counsel 20

MS. JENNIFER COX: So just a couple of 21

questions in relation to your CV, Susan, one of the things 22

that we can tell is that you have had numerous awards and 23

many experiences, particularly in the Canadian music 24

industry, and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 192

about some of the most significant awards and honours that 1

you've had, particularly in relation the Canadian music 2

industry, as it's indicated on your CV? 3

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Okay. So I guess the 4

most significant ones would be the opportunities presented 5

to meet and to perform for some pretty incredible 6

dignitaries who were themselves activists. Billy Graham 7

and Nelson Mandela were high on my list of moments of 8

realizing that the path I'm on is the right path, that 9

there are parallel paths, and this is a good time during 10

these performance times. 11

MS. JENNIFER COX: And of the awards that 12

you've -- you've also had the Governor General's Lifetime 13

Achievement Award in the Arts. I see a Governor General's 14

Officer of the Order of Canada, Juno Awards, First 15

National Aboriginal Achievement Award in Entertainment. 16

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yeah. 17

MS. JENNIFER COX: So Chief Commissioner, I 18

think I've established, based on the CV, that she should 19

be qualified in the area of fine arts with a focus on song 20

writing. 21


Certainly. There are the necessary qualifications and 23

then some to be qualified to give opinion evidence with 24

respect to fine arts and song writing. 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 193

MS. JENNIFER COX: And with respect to the 1

knowledge keeper category, the bio or the backgrounder 2

speaks to Susan's journey, for lack of a better way of 3

describing it. 4

And Susan, just in -- sort of in a few 5

words, if you could explain how you feel your journey 6

would make you an Inuit knowledge keeper? 7

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I represent a 8

generation of Inuit who have lived between two incredible 9

worlds, brought up by a generation of parents whose 10

formative years were traditional. Their first 7, 8, 9, 11

10 years, depending on what region of the North, anyplace 12

in the North, Inuit Nunaat, you come from would determine 13

when -- what your formative years would have been. My 14

parents were 7, 8, 9, or 10 in their formative years. 15

Very traditional. 16

Parented by a generation of parents who 17

were then placed in permanent settlements. I can speak to 18

being parented by traumatized Inuit parents, parents who 19

came to understand that they had to fit in pretty quickly 20

and placed us, their children, on that same path, and 21

while doing this, figuring out what is the best 22

traditional world for our children. The knowledge there 23

that I can speak to is generational trauma, the effects of 24

generational trauma. 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 194

This generation of parents were also the 1

generation that were placed in residential schools. So 2

many of these parents, while transitioning or 3

non-transitioning, as I'm going to speak a bit about this 4

afternoon, were many who were also victims of child sex 5

abuse. So they were placed in residential schools and 6

abused as children, physically, culturally, sexually, and 7

then had to be placed in transitioning parenting and 8

trying to be as good traditional parents as they could be. 9

So we were brought up in this environment 10

by this generation of parents. And that's knowledge that 11

we have to acknowledge in our healing journeys, and that's 12

where most of my -- that experience is where most of my 13

resource and source comes from as an artist and as a 14

writer. 15

MS. JENNIFER COX: So Chief Commissioner, 16

I'd like to have the further qualification of a knowledge 17

keeper based on the Inuit cultural practices and the work 18

she's doing for the Arctic Rose Foundation. 19


Certainly. Ms. Aglukark can be qualified as a knowledge 21

keeper in the areas as she's described. 22

MS. JENNIFER COX: So Susan, some of the 23

material that we have just talked about talks a little bit 24

about your history and song writing that extends back to 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 195

25 years, and the process that you went through to 1

essentially relearn the culture, you know, that you became 2

disconnected from. 3

I'm wondering if you can share with the 4

Commissioners, you know, in a fairly sort of short period 5

of time, because we don't have a lot of time, how that 6

journey began. So let's talk a little bit about where you 7

started and how you began sort of this knowledge keeping 8

and this knowledge seeking role? 9

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Okay. To answer that 10

question, we have to go back to what was the testimony in 11

February. I left home, home was the Kivalliq region. The 12

Kivalliq region are the seven communities along the west 13

coast of the Hudson’s Bay. My dad’s people are from 14

Chesterfield, Git lax m’oon, which is people of the 15

saltwater. My mom’s people are from inland Arviat. And 16

so, we consider all of the Kivalliq region our home; this 17

was my home. I lived in Arviat, Rankin, Whale Cove, Baker 18

Lake, so -- and family in the entire region. So, this was 19

my home; this was my life. 20

The testimony in February was a necessary 21

testimony because that environment where I grew up -- as a 22

child, I was a very happy child until this incident. And 23

then everything -- the way I looked at everything from 24

that incident on changed for me and that region. So, I 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 196

looked at how my life and that region stopped being home. 1

It stopped being a safe place from that eight-year-old, 2

nine- year-old on. 3

So, when I talk about that context in this 4

testimony, it is important when we talk about the recovery 5

work to know where that recovery has to begin. And, that 6

was a broken culture, 25, 30 years ago, that I left. It 7

did not provide any substantial support and it could not. 8

It could not provide any support for me, and I understood 9

that. Leaving was the only option that I had after I gave 10

my testimony. 11

Although we won the case, the things that 12

had changed in that community, in that region were greater 13

than my ability to overcome them, to feel like I could 14

continue to belong. I no longer belonged in that 15

community or in that region because everything had 16

changed. The whole process left me unsettled. 17

And, before I got involved in the case, as 18

I said, my life was pretty awesome. I loved being home. 19

I left because there was no emotional support. There was 20

no place to go for an overall sense of safety or -- and 21

this is going to be, again, part of the bigger testimony. 22

There was no place to go to understand that I had lost the 23

sense of self. I did not know that that is what we can 24

call it when you have been abused, or that even if we had 25

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known that this happened, that we have a right to recover 1

it. We are that deeply institutionalized that we feel 2

like we need permission for every part of our recovery 3

journey, and that is where I was at when I left roughly 27 4

years ago and moved to Ottawa. 5

There was no support in the community. 6

There was no support at home. There was no support at the 7

church. I was placed in a state of vulnerability, and I 8

chose that. I chose to participate in that court -- in 9

those court proceedings. I left to shift the state of 10

vulnerability into something else, whatever that something 11

else was. But, the state of vulnerability became and 12

still is a constant companion, and is for a lot of us 13

victims. We feel always vulnerable, so we create a life 14

around protecting ourselves from that vulnerability, and 15

this is a normal state in many of our communities. 16

Although I was brought up in a home 17

environment of love, self respect and a great 18

understanding of responsibility, there was always an 19

undercurrent of deference. In this context, I use the 20

word “deference”. Respect and esteem due to a superior or 21

an elder affected or ingratiating regard for another’s 22

wishes. So, in deference to. 23

So, our household is a very religious 24

household, both of our parents are strong Christians. 25

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And, I know this was their safe place to go during their 1

transition period from traditional to the permanent 2

settlements. And, they did create a safe environment for 3

us siblings to grow up in for the most part. But, the 4

undertone was always deference. There are people who know 5

better, who know more, and we wait for permission from 6

them. 7

So, in addition to, as a victim and being 8

victimized as a child, and then re-victimized during the 9

court proceedings, there is always this feeling that I did 10

not have permission, I did not have a right, and there was 11

the undertone of somebody else knows better, I will wait 12

for them to sort it out. Never allowing myself this path 13

of healing, and, again, not knowing that I had a right to 14

it, deep in my spirit, not knowing I had a right to heal. 15

So, coming out of a traumatic experience, 16

which was the court proceedings, the personal environments 17

that we would or could return to after court proceedings, 18

even if we do win those proceedings, the places that we go 19

back to were and sometimes are, at best, environments of 20

emotional unrest. They are unrest. Those homes have just 21

been placed in a state of turmoil and cannot recover back 22

to normal, whatever normal was. 23

So, at best, they are states -- 24

environments of emotional unrest. At worst, and most 25

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often the case is, it is ground zero for returning to all 1

kinds -- every kind of abuse. So, court proceedings are 2

one thing. If we are not going to invest in creating 3

those safe places, we just go back to the same environment 4

and nothing changes. 5

I left Rankin in 1990 to leave. As I said, 6

would I have stayed in Rankin had there been any type of 7

support? Yes, I would have stayed in Rankin. I would 8

have stayed at home. I would have created a life in my 9

community and among my family and Inuit people. I left to 10

leave. 11

Some of the challenges in those 12

environments, after you participate in a court proceeding, 13

particularly these kinds of court proceedings where all 14

communities in the north are isolated environments -- 15

after I gave my statement during the court proceedings, 16

the early 1990s in Rankin, one of the shifts in the air in 17

that community was that the people who were close to me 18

did not know how to support me. And so, what added to 19

that tension that was already there caused by these court 20

proceedings was guilt and shame, because they did not know 21

how to support me. So, our communities are compounded and 22

built up guilt and shame and fear and waiting. 23

And so, my participating in those court 24

proceedings made me an outcast. Not intentionally, but 25

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made me an outcast. I had done something that, in our 1

community, fell under a cloud of, it is wrong, it is wrong 2

because by association with the police and with the 3

nurses, whoever is involved in the case, it must have been 4

a crime, and we must have been part of that crime that was 5

done. 6

And so, there is a lot of work to be done 7

in our communities in the area of understanding what is 8

one side and what is the other side and what is our role 9

in terms of creating better supports and education when we 10

are on this side of trying to make our communities better 11

by standing up against our abusers. 12

So, this was largely the reason why I had 13

to leave. There was no way that life would ever feel 14

normal again in that environment, for me or for the people 15

around me. It was hard to just visit to visit. The only 16

way -- and I get it. The only way that we could feel 17

comfortable in each other’s company is if we drink, if we 18

party, if we can all together shut down the feelings that 19

we are all fighting. And so, we create environments that 20

snowball into other environments of abuse. And, I did not 21

want to -- I had to leave to get away from that 22

temptation. 23

So, the early years of this life, long 24

before I became a singer/songwriter, long before I was on 25

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this path, were a series of decisions that at the time I 1

made them felt wrong and selfish, but were the best ones I 2

could make for myself. I always come back to had there 3

been any one of those groups who could support me, would I 4

have stayed? Absolutely. I would have stayed home. I 5

did not have a choice. 6

So, the case against my abuser, although we 7

won it, at the time, I felt like I lost. I left. I moved 8

away. I had to start over. He served his time, six 9

months, went back home, back to his normal life. So, we 10

fast forward to why my participation in February’s event. 11

So, 25 years later, it carried on, and it 12

had to be put back on the radar. We don’t know that it 13

was stopped, but it had to be put back on somebody’s 14

radar. And, I thank you for the opportunity. Thank you 15

for that time in February. 16

So, I moved to Ottawa. I moved there as a 17

translator with the federal government, moved onto a job 18

with the ITC, now the ITK, night schooling to get my 19

pilot’s licence, but my decision at the time that I moved 20

was to leave, never to return. I didn’t know if I return 21

what I would go back to, and I couldn’t go back to the 22

uncertainty and that vulnerability. So, I left to leave. 23

I didn’t leave with a goal to get better. 24

I didn’t leave with a vision or this conscious deep vision 25

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that I am going to change my life. Again, because part of 1

the environment we grow up in when we are parented by 2

transitioning parents is we are in a state of what I call 3

“suspended anticipation.” Somebody made promises to us, 4

and we are waiting to be released from those promises. 5

And, until we are released from them, we can’t move 6

forward. We need permission all the time to move forward. 7

I love my life when I moved to Ottawa. It 8

feels good. I had guilt that I was feeling good about my 9

life. I wanted to do better things and get better at 10

things, but I always had to call home. “This is 11

happening, what do you think of this? Is this good? Is 12

this bad? I feel guilty. Should we pray about it?” Just 13

do it. But, I needed someone to release me from that 14

burden of, I love my life and there is something wrong 15

with this picture. So, essentially, generationally 16

institutionalized. 17

So, that is what I brought with me when I 18

moved to Ottawa. I hadn’t started singing yet. I hadn’t 19

started song writing yet. I hadn’t done my CBC Radio 20

project. We hadn’t done the Searching video. I hadn’t 21

done any of that yet. 22

There were a couple of moments in Ottawa 23

that first year that I lived there that were really, 24

really scary. And, they were simple things. And, there 25

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are two things that I am going to mention, because they 1

are -- they paint the picture of who we are as small town 2

Indigenous or small reserve Indigenous trying to make a 3

life for ourselves, and then being too afraid of the new 4

things in our life. 5

The first challenge for me was the city 6

buses, which is like, oh, they are just city buses. They 7

are just bus drivers. But, they are qallunaat bus drivers 8

and they are all qallunaat on that bus, and I am just a 9

little Arviatmiut. Maybe they are going to figure it out 10

that I am this little Arviatmiut Eskimo who is trying to 11

get from Point A to Point B, and maybe they have a right 12

to say, “No, you can’t get on this bus.” 13

I harboured that kind of fear and lived 14

with that kind of fear. And, fear is not the right word. 15

The word in this context is il-er-a (phonetic). In our 16

dialect, il-er-a (phonetic) is the root word for il-er-a-17

suk (phonetic), il-er-a-sula-punga (phonetic), il-er-a-18

sula-tunga (phonetic). I was in a constant state of 19

emotional fear. They had power over me. I needed their 20

permission to get on the bus to get to my job. 21

Every morning -- so some mornings, it was 22

too much and I would walk the 5 miles rather than confront 23

this bus -- thinking I had to confront the poor guy. He 24

had no idea, but I did. I had the fear in here. So, that 25

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was the first thing I had to tell myself, “Don’t be silly. 1

It’s okay. You just -- this is just a bus getting you 2

from Point A to Point B.” 3

And, the other time was -- we have more 4

access to better food now in the North than we did 25, 30 5

years ago when I first moved away. We had what was then 6

the Hudson’s Bay Company and the Arctic co-ops, and 7

whatever they could provide us for food. And, when I 8

first moved to Ottawa, the grocery stores were pretty 9

awesome. But, it was as simple as wanting to go and get a 10

box of Red Rose tea. Walking up to the wall of tea 11

options and panicking, because I just want Red Rose tea. 12

I don’t need to look at all these types of tea and all the 13

things that they can do. They can help you sleep; they 14

can do this. And, like, “I just want Red Rose tea. I 15

can’t do this,” and walked out. Simple things. 16

I needed someone to release me from the 17

fear that I didn’t belong, and that I always needed 18

someone to say, “It’s okay. Just pick one. Nobody’s 19

going to scold you. Nobody’s going to take it away.” So, 20

I brought that with me when I first moved to Ottawa, this 21

really incredibly overwhelming sense of “I didn’t belong 22

in this place, in this environment”. As much as I loved 23

what was changing in me, I was sensing and feeling enough 24

of this little bit of independence, but the il-er-a-suniq 25

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(phonetic) was stronger than that independence. The fear 1

and waiting for someone to tell me, “You can do this. You 2

belong here,” was stronger than wanting it at that time. 3

So, this is the first rough year of living in Ottawa. 4

Shortly after that, I -- we did the 5

Searching video. This was supposed to be a documentary 6

which turned into a music video. I wasn’t a singer/song 7

writer. I was not yet an artist. My heart had not 8

engaged yet the possibility that I could be an artist, 9

that art could be a career. I was working my day job with 10

ITC, now ITK, and night schooling to get my pilot’s 11

licence. This life was the furthest thing from my mind. 12

And then I was given, in a conversation 13

with my first boss, an opportunity to use one of my poems 14

that I had written in high school called (phonetic), I 15

Have Been Searching, and turned it into a documentary 16

about living between two worlds to get our grade 12 17

diploma. This turned into a music video, and I don’t know 18

to this day how we went from a 6-minute documentary to a 19

7-minute music video on Much Music, but it happened. 20

This -- while producing this, I was invited 21

to participate in a recording of an LP. So, for those who 22

don’t know what an “LP” is, the big vinyl records, 23

although mine was not on vinyl. They still called it LP 24

at the time when they were doing the recording even though 25

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it had switched over to CD. And, CBC Northern Services 1

contacted me and asked if I could submit a demo. 2

And, aside from being a preacher’s kid, 3

there is no musical experience in our family, no choirs. 4

We don’t read or write music. No art in our lives. And 5

so, this invitation comes along. And, when I met with the 6

gentleman who invited me to participate in this project, 7

my mind engaged because it was an opportunity to begin to 8

write about the things that I had brought with me from 9

home when I left the court case, after the court case. 10

All of this stuff was still here. It had not yet been 11

resolved. 12

And so, when I began the engaging of the 13

writing, the song writing, it was to let it go, to find a 14

place to release it. And, we recorded our first series of 15

songs that were on that project, the CBC Radio project. 16

The producer, Randall Prescott, produced it, and then 17

Randall and I carried on with other song writing for what 18

is now the Arctic Rose album. 19

And, I remember the initial conversations 20

with Randall being, “I don’t know how to write songs. I’m 21

not a singer/song writer. I know only what I have left 22

behind, and I need to write about those. That’s what I 23

will write about.” And, all my life, I have had pretty 24

incredible people who are very supportive of my processes. 25

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They understood, for the most part, that I am -- I have no 1

experience as an artist, and I can’t write what everybody 2

else writes. You have to let me write what I am feeling 3

and the demons I am fighting. 4

And so, a lot of Arctic Rose turned into 5

the very personal songs. Even then, it was not a career 6

for me. Even then, it was, I know I’m not a great singer. 7

I’m not even a great song writer. I just got to get this 8

stuff on this album and take it off my bucket list. I’ve 9

done it and move on with whatever the rest of my life was 10

going to be. What started to happen though, with the 11

writing of that album, was a slow awakening in the pit of 12

my belly. I began to feel a goodness I did not know that 13

I could feel. And, I do not know how else to describe it. 14

The more I put into writing the things that I was feeling, 15

the better I was beginning to feel. 16

Then -- I mean, the extent of my English at 17

that time was what I grew up with in small town Nunavut, 18

so my English was not that great at the time. So, I could 19

not describe it then what I was feeling, but it felt good. 20

Whatever was happening, it felt good. As it turns out, 21

what was happening was I was healing. 22

So, it became -- shortly after the Arctic 23

Rose process, my life became about always pursuing that 24

feeling. It was never pursuit of celebrity, it was never 25

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pursuit of this incredible life I ended up living these 1

last 25 years, but pursuing this feeling, getting better 2

and the better I got wanting to get better. 3

So, the trauma that I brought with me from 4

home, the opportunities that were given to me shortly 5

after moving to Ottawa set me on what has become a journey 6

that, as I have learned, as I have healed enough, as I 7

have gotten better, I have given myself space to healthy 8

exploration and love. 9

So, when I started the full engagement of 10

the career -- and this did not happen until 1998. So, 11

five years into this career, This Child had come out, the 12

album -- and my son, but the album. And, I had gotten the 13

awards. But, 1998 was the big turning point year for me 14

where I had to ask myself, so what is the big hiccup fear? 15

There is always going to be fears in our lives. What is 16

the big fear that up to that point was keeping me from 17

truly engaging in this incredible opportunity, which was 18

life as an artist, life as a singer/songwriter. 19

And, I go back to being parented by 20

transitioning parents. I was afraid to be a whole and 21

successful Indigenous person, Inuk, because it comes with 22

a lot of responsibility and I did not have the tools to 23

manage that responsibility. I did not know how to be a 24

celebrity, I did not know how to be a role model, I did 25

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not know how to be an artist, I did not know how to run a 1

business, I did not know anything about this industry, and 2

yet here was an opportunity to fully engage in it. It was 3

not just a matter of the record company is involved now. 4

As an Indigenous artist, it is hardly ever about just 5

having a career of a celebrity, it is -- we have this 6

incredible history that we have to work with and 7

represent. So, the scary part was you have to make that 8

part of your life, and always the hurt and what I left 9

Nunavut and home with will always be in this work that I 10

do. 11

So, it became -- the decision to engage in 12

1998, and I chose to -- I chose to full on take this 13

career. Take it on. I am going to figure this out, I am 14

going to figure out what I am afraid of and fight it, 15

whatever it is. Whatever these demons are, I am going to 16

fight them because I had fallen in love with the journey 17

of healing through this art, through this music, through 18

this career, and that became more important to me than the 19

pursuit of celebrity. 20

So, that has become the source of 21

documenting my recovery process, my healing process. A 22

little bit at a time, a layer at a time, layers peel off 23

as I understand them. The triggers, the habits we develop 24

as victims, all of these things become part of, okay, that 25

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is what that means, that is what that means, so let’s 1

write this song, let’s write that song, let’s put it in 2

this art, let’s put it in that art. So, it has become a 3

source and resource for me to work with, to keep my career 4

going, but also to keep healing and to get past the layers 5

of our traumatic pasts. And, we have many, many layers. 6

I believe that Indigenous artists have an 7

awesome responsibility to contribute to that. And, I use 8

“awesome” not in, yay, we are awesome, but awesome in that 9

we have something pretty incredible in the area of 10

connecting certain dots the way that we do as artists, 11

very different than academics, that make it understandable 12

or relatable. 13

And so, the decision in 1998 was scary, 14

because I knew that whatever work I did would always 15

include that trauma, the thing that had driven me away 16

from home, the lessons I was learning, the ways I was 17

getting better, but it also meant that it would always be 18

triggers. So, there is not a single concert I do not 19

perform where I am not triggered. There is not a single 20

keynote presentation where I speak, where I do not go back 21

to that trauma. But, as Indigenous artists, and most of 22

us are victims, we have made the choice and the commitment 23

to keep doing this, because we have to write that stuff 24

and we have to share it because there is going to be 25

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several generations that have to keep doing the work and 1

documenting it, otherwise it stops and it ends, and we 2

cannot let that happen. 3

So, we have an incredible resource which is 4

lived experience every time we create and every time we 5

share, and a responsibility to share that, so that you can 6

take from it what you need for us to do the generational 7

healing. So, I hope that answered your question. That is 8

the early part of the trauma that became the source and 9

the resource to bring me to knowing that I loved more the 10

life I had been given, the opportunity I had been given, 11

which was to heal, than the fear of not knowing how to 12

stay on that journey. I chose to figure out how to work 13

through the fear and stay on this path, and now that has 14

become the source that I use to keep doing the work that 15

we do. 16

And, it is trauma-informed. Every piece we 17

write, every art we produce is trauma-informed material. 18

There is no way around it as Indigenous artists from 19

generational trauma pasts, parents and everything, 20

grandparents even. So, our parents did incredible, but it 21

was an undertone of deference, go back to -- they always 22

brought us back to, somebody else knows better, so we will 23

wait for somebody else to solve that problem. Put it away 24

and do not deal with it because we do not know how. There 25

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is a lot of guilt attached that it happened to our family, 1

so let’s bury it. So, all these things happened in our 2

communities, so it is compounded trauma that we are 3

dealing with. 4

The other part that happens is in 5

generational transitioning, our parents to this 6

generation, our parents and grandparents began parenting 7

us from the narrative that they were told when they were 8

placed in permanent settlements, which was that, you 9

needed rescuing, you needed healing, you needed fixing and 10

we are going to fix it for you. So, this put us in what I 11

call an emotional state of suspended anticipation. 12

Somebody made promises and we have not yet been released 13

from those promises. Even if they have not been met, we 14

have not been released from them. 15

So, what is happening is the generations 16

and generations that are waiting to be released have -- we 17

have created environments of trauma informed homes, 18

communities, that are compounded by this daunting sense of 19

waiting. Somebody else is going to release us. We're 20

waiting to be released from these promises. And once 21

that's done, we can move on to something, whatever that 22

something is, but we haven't been. Suspended 23

anticipation. We're still waiting. So that generation of 24

parents are who parented us, and grandparents. 25

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And it's -- I think it's important also to 1

understand these are not criticisms, these are facts. 2

That is what happened. Our parents and grandparents did 3

their best, but they did the best with what situations 4

they were placed in. So we can't look at them from a 5

place of well they did this, they did that, but it's 6

sharing to inform the work we are doing, and so we better 7

understand the work we need to do and write and draw from 8

to create whatever we need to create for the next 9

generation. 10

So parented by that, transitional 11

parenting, and trauma informed parenting and generational 12

trauma. 13

MS. JENNIFER COX: So Susan, one of the 14

terms that you used with me was the broken narrative. 15

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: M'hm. 16

MS. JENNIFER COX: I'm wondering if we 17

could get the picture up on the screen, because I think 18

this illustrates -- I'd like you tell the story that you 19

told me in relation to your -- this is your grandmother? 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: This is my great 21

grandmother, and this woman adopted and raised my mother, 22

and her name is Tahilq (ph). And -- so when I talk about 23

transitional parenting and how quickly that world changed, 24

she comes from the group of people who were photographed 25

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and documented by Richard Harrington, contracted by the 1

government to document this group people whose camp inland 2

Inuit had just come through a starvation period. 3

So she had almost starved to death, and she 4

was just at the end of this period. And she adopted and 5

raised my mother, so my mother would have almost starved 6

to death as a child. And she's around here somewhere in 7

this picture. 8

And then in her lifetime, shortly after 9

this, is when they began taking the Inuit and placing them 10

in permanent settlements. So when I say generational 11

trauma, transitional parenting, or non-transitional, the 12

paper I began writing about 15 years ago is a paper called 13

Post Colonization Syndrome Theory, and what I talk about 14

that is they are suffering from a form of trauma. But the 15

trauma they are suffering from is not having had adequate 16

time to transition from traditional to non-traditional. 17

They weren't given the choice. It was just 18

a matter of here's the period of starvation you just came 19

out of, we need to rescue you. And we're -- the only way 20

that we can help you is if we place you in permanent 21

settlements. So the narrative that those who documented 22

this period and these people told the non-Inuit was that 23

we just rescued these people. 24

So immediately, when you use these choice 25

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of words, the implication there is they were poor barbaric 1

people who didn't know what they were doing and they got 2

themselves in a state of starvation, and so we must rescue 3

them. And so we, the following generations, identify with 4

the people who needed rescuing. 5

And so when we talk about correcting a 6

narrative, we need to go back and correct this one. 7

Because what Elders will tell you is yes, there were 8

period so starvation in Inuit culture over the thousands 9

of years; it happened occasionally. In this case, the 10

migration of the caribou route shifted slightly enough 11

that there was not enough meat to sustain them for the 12

winter. And Elders will tell you it happened, and they 13

got through it each time it happened. 14

This time, the timing just happened to be 15

that the World War II ended and the government decided we 16

need to occupy the Arctic lands, and the Inuit are already 17

there anyway, so why don't we keep them there, we'll put 18

them in permanent settlements, we'll save them from 19

starvation, and we'll be the heroes. 20

The narrative has to be our ancestors are 21

the heroes. If we don't change this narrative, we're 22

always going to believe that we were silly barbaric people 23

who needed rescuing. And we need -- if we're going to 24

heal, heal from the right place, heal from that place. 25

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Those are the heroes, we're not. So when I talk about 1

generational trauma and correcting the narrative, this is 2

where we begin. 3

Until she was 70 in this picture they were 4

fine, and they happened to have a year or two where there 5

was no caribou. But that doesn't make the thousands of 6

years of history silly old people who were wandering out 7

on the Arctic that needed rescuing. And we need to 8

correct that narrative to being to really heal as 9

Indigenous people. 10

So that is the woman who adopted and raised 11

my mom. In between her generation, Tahilq's generation 12

and my mom's, is when our life changed, and that 13

dramatically. 14

So the non-transition period, what I talk 15

about in there is if -- we had two opportunities to get 16

the relationship right and in a healthy way as Inuit. The 17

first one was when they were placing us in permanent 18

settlements. 19

The reality is it was going to happen. 20

Even Inuit knew that. Change happens. We have no control 21

over that. But what should have happened was when the 22

relationships were being formed between the traditional 23

Inuit -- so long before our political leaders -- 24

traditional Inuit and whoever were the non-traditional 25

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representatives, there was an opportunity that was the 1

first opportunity where the non-Inuit could have tapped 2

into traditional Inuit emotional intelligence. 3

They were intelligent people, they were an 4

organized society, they had everything set up and in 5

place, and they were functioning. And all the ways that 6

they were doing this, this side had an opportunity to 7

recognize that we could take the best of both worlds and 8

create a really awesome relationship here, but it didn't 9

happen. 10

The second opportunity to get this right 11

was the early years of the political movement. So while 12

we were negotiating in Nunavut, we should also have been 13

creating a space where we could document and access that 14

emotional intelligence. 15

We should have also been anticipating that 16

whatever land we create for the contemporary Inuk or 17

contemporary adult, we also need to be anticipating that 18

that change is going to change them and how is it going to 19

change them and how do we create -- I don't know what the 20

right term is -- stop gaps so that before it gets bad we 21

get ahead of it. We didn't do that. 22

So we had two opportunities to create good 23

relationships with the Inuit who carried emotional 24

intelligence memories and the negotiators on the other 25

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side of the table, whoever they were. And we didn't do 1

it. So now we're trying to play catch up with them. 2

So that's when I go back to suspended 3

anticipation. We're still waiting for something to 4

change. 5

So that was the opportunity we had when 6

they were placed from traditional to the permanent 7

settlements they're in now, and how this has added to the 8

compounded generational trauma. 9

So this generational trauma created a first 10

generation, so Tahilq's generation were a -- became 11

disenfranchised or disempowered. Institutionalized, my 12

parents, the next generation, were in the process of being 13

institutionalized, and parented deferring. And I hope 14

that makes sense. 15

So they did incredible, but there was 16

always, as I said, the undertone of what they didn't know 17

what they were afraid because they didn't know they would 18

defer to somebody who would know. And so we grew up 19

waiting for someone to always give us permission because 20

we thought that that was the way and that was what we had 21

to do. 22

So, my generation grew up il-er-a-suking 23

(phonetic) which is not a good Inuktituut word. My 24

generation grew up being in a state of emotional fear all 25

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the time. This was my emotional foundation waiting for 1

someone to release me from that emotional fear. “It’s 2

okay, ma’am, you can get back on the bus.” “It’s okay, 3

there’s like 10 brands of teas. It’s okay, you don’t have 4

to get the right one. Try them all.” Waiting for some 5

one to give me permission to say, “It’s okay.” That was 6

what I came into my life with. So, that was the 7

generational trauma that I have traced as I document this 8

through my writing and through my song writing. 9

And, I want to touch a bit also on the 10

effects of while we are living in constant compounding 11

trauma, because we are, we haven’t, as leaders, truly 12

dealt with all of the crises in our communities. We have 13

not dealt with them. In the meantime, they are continuing 14

to compound the other challenge is our growing population. 15

Yes, we are the fastest growing and youngest population. 16

Each generation that we aren’t getting 17

ahead of these challenges, we are adding compounded 18

trauma. If we don’t get ahead of this now, each 19

generation is going to add a new challenge to it, because 20

we haven’t resolved the previous three in Inuit history, 21

and maybe a bit longer depending on where in Inuit 22

Nunangat you are from and longer in the First Nations and 23

Métis communities. So, they are more compounded trauma 24

depending on where you are from. If we don’t get ahead of 25

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it now, it is going to keep growing and the population is 1

going to keep growing. 2

So, we are dealing with compounded 3

generational trauma. Population growth is creating this 4

need to urgently deal with these situations, but we 5

aren’t, because we aren’t getting ahead of them. 6

I have a problem with remote locations 7

being a cause. I don’t believe that. I don’t believe 8

that because even though the Arctic is remote, being 9

remote should not prevent us from accessing equal access 10

to programming, funding for programming, education, water, 11

housing. Why we use remote locations as one of the 12

reasons why we can’t get ahead of these problems, I think 13

it is just an excuse. And, I don’t agree that being a 14

remote population is a factor. 15

When we were developing those relationships 16

with the agents, whoever they were, negotiating Nunavut 17

and earlier treaties and land claims, they knew population 18

was going to grow. They should have factored those 19

numbers in. Everybody knew. Numbers should have changed 20

while population grew. Where we are should not be a 21

factor. So, I don’t agree with that being a remote 22

population is a deterrent for access to healthy, equal 23

funding of anything. 24

So, yes, lack of funding is a challenge. I 25

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have spent about, what are we now? 2018. So, about 15 1

years on volunteers on boards. And, I started about 15, 2

16 years ago wanting to figure out and understand what is 3

the best way to contribute to solve -- problem solving in 4

our communities. As we know, our environments are very 5

different and have different challenges, and so our 6

approaches have to be different. 7

And so, about 15 or 16 years ago, I started 8

volunteer -- joining volunteer boards to get an idea of 9

how that works and is it the best way to contribute. And, 10

I had to do this, because previous to that time, I had 11

approached my governments from about the mid-1990’s on. 12

About 1998 was the first time that I went to the Nunavut 13

government. And, I said then, “Listen, we’re -- we need 14

to figure out a partnership of some kind.” I didn’t know 15

what at the time. 1998, we had then high suicide rates. 16

“We need to figure out something to create something to 17

help our young people.” And, I was turned down. 18

I went back in the early 2000’s when the 19

numbers were growing. Turned downed again. And then 20

about four years ago, I went back and I said, “My Arctic 21

Rose Foundation started off as the Arctic Rose Project.” 22

And, I started it off as a project, because I wanted to, 23

again, understand what is the best use of our time, of our 24

volunteer time, of our fundraising time of the things that 25

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we are going to have to do to understand and contribute to 1

solutions to our communities. 2

So, it started off as volunteer campaigns. 3

So, for about three years, we did four campaigns, 4

quarterly campaigns in the Arctic Rose Project. At that 5

time, I went back to my government and said, “Here is what 6

I’m learning from these campaigns. Shouldn’t we work 7

together? Leverage my celebrity and what we know is a 8

challenge here, and let’s together find solutions. Let’s 9

do something. I don’t know what that something should 10

look like, but we should do something now.” And, the 11

answer was, “Why don’t you give it a try and send us a 12

report?” At that point, I had had enough and I said, 13

“Okay, I’m going to do it myself. I’m going to do this 14

myself.” 15

So, back in 2015 or ’14, I started the 16

application process for the charitable status. And, what 17

is -- it took about three years to get our charitable 18

status. And, it took a bit longer, because I needed the 19

mandate to be as broad as possible, because the process, 20

we have to apply -- to the work we are going to do has to 21

be an organic process. There is a plan in place, there is 22

a method in place, but when I say it has to be “an organic 23

process”, what I mean by that is -- and I will use -- I 24

have just -- we have just finished our January to May, our 25

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first pilot period with a program in Nunavut, in Rankin 1

Inlet. 2

And, during that time -- the purpose of 3

this space. And, the purpose of this space, it is a safe 4

place. Here, when you need to just sit down and have a 5

quiet space, you can do that here. There is guided art 6

therapy, there is a program that is running there, but 7

they all understand that this place -- sometimes you do 8

not want to be involved or engaged, sometimes all you need 9

is a place to just be. And, she showed up and I knew 10

right away that that is what she needs today. So, she 11

just simply sat down and leaned into me and sat there for 12

10 minutes, and that was enough for her. And then she got 13

up and she went to the art table, and she started her art 14

and she sat there and did her art for the next hour. 15

So, when we say organic -- and what I mean 16

by that is we have to be flexible. When we have a space 17

that has a purpose and a goal, and we are meeting that 18

purpose, we are meeting that goal, also we have to have 19

that flexibility. And, we train our facilitators to know. 20

And, we select them based on the fact that they know most 21

likely, once or twice a week, we are going to get somebody 22

who needs special care, does not want therapy, but needs a 23

different kind of an approach, and that is what this space 24

offers. So, that is what I mean by organic. And, organic 25

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because we recognize the need when it is there and we know 1

how to offer it. So, we have to be flexible in an organic 2

-- in our approach. 3

So, the foundation does that. I just came 4

in yesterday from setting up the room again in Rankin -- 5

so that is going to start up again for the school year in 6

Rankin. So, we are filling a void where they are not 7

getting the emotional support they need at home, we are 8

filling a void where they do not need therapy per se, but 9

they know -- sometimes just knowing the space is there can 10

be enough for them. The space is a controlled space, so 11

it is not just where you put music on and you hang out. 12

It is not a drop-in centre, it is guided therapy. 13

The therapy -- and I do not use the word 14

“therapy” in that space. We do use music. And, music has 15

been my career. Where I have healed enough is that -- 16

every part of the art I have been introduced to in my 17

career, all of the art I have done, that is what has 18

healed me. The writing has healed me. Having that outlet 19

is what has allowed me to stay on this journey these last 20

25 years. And so, what we do with the art is give them 21

the opportunity to do the same, what do you need to 22

practice today and how do we provide it for you. 23

So, it is not just music therapy, it is 24

every form of art that we can make available to them, with 25

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the goal of, this is where you put your crazy, this is 1

where you put your frantic, this is where you put not 2

knowing. And so, that space has become that safe space 3

for them. And, that was created from my experience these 4

last 25 years on this journey which, as I said, I have 5

been a fortunate one. I have been able to land 6

emotionally in one place and create, write, document -- 7

where I got fed up with not getting results, making them 8

happen myself. And so now, what is exciting about having 9

the Arctic Rose Foundation, is also teaching that the 10

government does not have all the answers. They do not 11

have to have all the answers. At some point, we are going 12

to have to engage as a people and find other ways and 13

resources to contribute to solutions in control. 14

And so, it has become an exciting project 15

for us, the foundation work, because it is work, writing, 16

exploration, research, facilitating for Inuit by Inuit. 17

Organically as victims to help victims. While we are 18

identifying the culture crisis, developing programs to 19

address the culture crisis from our lived experience. 20

That is what the foundation is doing now and it started 21

with that searching video, that cassette tape, and then 22

the Arctic Rose album, and then the last 20 years. It 23

started -- having to leave and start over, whatever 24

starting over meant. And then 25 years later, finding 25

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ways to find the best of those lessons and turning them 1

into programs and opportunities for others to use to heal 2

or to draw from. So, that is what the foundation does. 3

MS. JENNIFER COX: One of the things that 4

you provided to us, Susan, was a PowerPoint that has some 5

pictures in it. And, I am wondering if perhaps it would 6

help if they put that up on the screen and you could 7

talk --- 8

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yes. 9

MS. JENNIFER COX: --- a little bit about 10

what is in the pictures so that it illustrates some of the 11

work that you have been doing with Arctic Rose. 12

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yes. Sure. So, this 13

is from our pilot period, January through to May. So, if 14

they want to just go through the pictures and I can talk 15

you through what they are. So, the first picture is -- so 16

the campaigns that I started with were basic morale 17

boosting campaigns. What you see hanging there are grad 18

gowns and dresses. 19

So, I collect grad gowns and dresses 20

leading up to graduation ceremonies, because what we 21

learned during the campaign period, before we became a 22

foundation, was that sometimes, often in fact, a high 23

school student will drop out of high school because they 24

have worn the same clothes for four or five days, and they 25

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are ashamed to go back to school because of the same 1

clothes and because they smell bad. They might be doing 2

great in school, but they are ashamed of their appearance, 3

so they drop out because they cannot afford new clothing. 4

So, we collect clothing and we bring clothing up, and we 5

privately, secretly give them access to clean clothing. 6

Graduation ceremonies are a critical time 7

for a lot of young girls. Many cannot afford to fly south 8

to get a grad dress, so we collect graduation gowns and we 9

bring them down with everything, and they select what they 10

want to wear for their graduation ceremonies, or as dates. 11

Whatever they want to do. But, the purpose of those 12

campaigns is to boost morale, to let them know that 13

somebody has their backs, they are not alone in this 14

struggle in this journey. 15

The other picture is we had a young boy who 16

was coming to this program regularly and we offer -- the 17

first part of the program, when they come into the room 18

is, about 15, 20 minutes of a healthy snack and a sit-down 19

conversation, and that is where the work happens. The art 20

is not the work. The work is sitting down and having 21

these conversations with them. And so, for 15 or 20 22

minutes, they will sit down and have a snack that we give 23

them. But, the young boy would come and this was his only 24

meal for the day. If a child is hungry, they are not 25

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going to learn, they are not going to get healthy. 1

So, the campaigns were all about boosting 2

their morale, saying somebody has got your back, we hear 3

you, we are working on it. So, these pictures just 4

represent the project that turned into the foundation. 5

So, the next picture -- this was our first group. So, we 6

had, as I said, 25 girls, a couple of young guys, who 7

accessed that room every day. So, these girls are from 8

the middle school which is across the lake from the high 9

school. So, in 30 below weather, 40 below weather, 10

January, February, they were walking every day after 11

school from across there to utilize this space. They 12

understood the value of this space. So, every day, they 13

were there and we were guiding them through art after the 14

conversation. So, this is just to show you what that room 15

looked like in that pilot period. 16

The next picture is, I think, a group photo 17

of the same group. So, mostly girls, but a couple of 18

young guys in this picture. And then I think the next few 19

photos will show you some of the art that we showed them. 20

We include culture in all of their art. So, that first 21

piece is just a tear sheet project, where they utilized 22

art materials from all around them. So, what we did with 23

that first piece with the heart is, newspaper magazines 24

with Inuktitut language in them can be art, can become art 25

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material. So, we showed them how they could do this with 1

their own magazines at home. And then other pieces that 2

they drew. And then the next one will be -- I think it is 3

a young girl with her project. 4

So, this campaign was, at the end of the 5

pilot year, we left them with a project that they took 6

home. And, what this week’s project was, was on their 7

more vulnerable days when there is no one to go to, the 8

space was being closed down, because the funding had run 9

out, and this was in May, so they wouldn’t have access to 10

the space for the summer. 11

What we left them with was they are their 12

own personal angels, that they are their own personal 13

space where they can draw strength from. And so, this is 14

the project that represents the work that they did. I 15

think the next picture is the same one. So, this is her 16

angel. So, they created art that reflected themselves as 17

their own angel, their own inner angel. 18

And then the next one is a video clip. I 19

don’t know if we can hear it. I forgot to mention. This 20

is a young girl who gave her testimony of how the art 21

program had helped her. Maybe it is not... 22

(VIDEO PRESENTATION) 23

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: So, these are girls 24

who gave their little testimony about what they had 25

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learned from this process. And, this is January through 1

to May. And, what you see in the background is just some 2

of the work that they created. There is more in that 3

space. But, they learned a lot. 4

If I can share a quick story, one of the 5

stories was two friends came into the space together one 6

day, and then I put one of the girls on the radar that 7

day, because I could sense that she was having a bad day. 8

And then I had my friend, who was my co-worker in this 9

project, keep an eye on the other friend. And, sure 10

enough, they both stormed out about a half hour into this 11

project. 12

So, I happened to be out in the hallway on 13

the phone, so I stopped the young girl and I said, “I 14

gotta go, I’ve got to deal with this.” So, I asked her, 15

the girl I had -- my co-worker had the other girl. I 16

asked her, “So, can you tell me what happened?” And, she 17

said, “I don’t like the way she was looking at me.” And, 18

I said, “Okay. So, how did the way she was looking at you 19

make you feel that you got so angry?” And, she goes, 20

“Well, she was looking at me like she was better than me, 21

like I was not good enough to be here,” that kind of a 22

comment. 23

And so, I said to her, “Well, maybe she 24

wasn’t looking at you that way. Maybe it was just a 25

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reaction to something she heard that you think maybe it 1

just got a little crazy and you feel bad?” “Yes, I do. I 2

think I reacted.” So, then I asked her, “Do you think if 3

you had a chance, would you like to apologize?” “I would 4

like to.” And, she started to cry, “I would like to 5

apologize.” I said, “Well, why don’t we practice an 6

apology? I’ll help you, and then we’ll go over and see 7

your friend.” 8

So, we came up with a way for her to 9

apologize, and then we went over to her friend who started 10

crying. She was bawling as well. And, it was the same 11

process with her, “Maybe something just got out of hand 12

and you misunderstood.” And, it came down to that. “Your 13

friend wants to apologize. If she apologized, would you 14

guys -- we would love to have you back in the room. Would 15

you come back in the room?” So, they apologized to each 16

other, and then they hugged, and they came back in the 17

room. 18

So, the space is designed, when we train 19

the facilitators, to watch for these things. And, for her 20

to share “the way she looked at me made me feel 21

uncomfortable”, that is what I mean by culture-specific 22

observation. We don’t know where they come from when they 23

come to us. They don’t have the tools to manage this 24

frantic space, and we can’t let them slip through the 25

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cracks, because they don’t get the support at home, so the 1

space provides it. 2

So, that was a big telling sign for me from 3

her to say, “She made me feel bad by looking at me.” All 4

that tells me is, okay, at this age, if you feel that bad 5

that immediately, then your home environment is not the 6

greatest. Let’s talk you through a simple apology that 7

will diffuse it right away for you, and then we’ll get you 8

back in the room. And, that is all they needed. 9

It didn’t escalate. It didn’t become a 10

bullying situation. It was just a matter of recognizing 11

the signs and talking them through the process. And, they 12

have been friends -- they were, in fact, waiting at the 13

door yesterday, “Can we start the program?” “It’s not 14

ready. It’ll be ready in November.” “Okay,” those two 15

together. 16

So, that apology to each other was another 17

bonding experience for them they otherwise wouldn’t have 18

had. You know, so recognizing those things through the 19

foundation was a culture-specific management and training 20

is what we are doing through the foundation. 21

MS. JENNIFER COX: So, just as a point of 22

clarification, I think it -- is it fair to say that really 23

the founding piece of the Arctic Rose is to have the 24

physical space? Would that be a fair comment? 25

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MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: The physical space is 1

the critical one, and this space is -- what is important 2

about the space and why they come to it is they know that 3

is their space. They have set the rules for how that 4

space operates and they respect their own rules. One of 5

their first rules is, “We don’t want access to our phones 6

and the internet. We leave our phones or we put them 7

away, and we are just going to learn to have a 8

comfortable, productive time together in this space.” 9

But, they get the purpose of the space and 10

they utilize it the way it needs to be utilized. They get 11

the art. They get those moments of bonding. They get 12

those moments of conversation and they walk away with it. 13

And, they come back every day. 14

MS. JENNIFER COX: So, there isn’t 15

necessarily a one-size fits all answer as to the type of 16

therapy, whether it is music or art, that is appropriate. 17

And so, to use the words that you use, it was organic or 18

it needs to be organic. So, it needs to meet the child 19

where they are emotionally and culturally; is that a 20

fair... 21

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: That’s right. So, 22

what we have in that space is a resource manual. So, when 23

we train the two young girls we have hired to run the 24

space in Rankin Inlet, for example, we are going to train 25

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them in two weeks when we go back, they are given a 1

resource manual. So, there is that source for them to 2

draw from for each day. 3

But, there is a day where they can have an 4

“Anything Day”, because while they are watching and 5

observing the participants, they might say, “Oh, it looks 6

like they need to do this today.” Maybe it is a music 7

day. Maybe it is just a messy paint day. Maybe it is 8

just a conversation day, but they are going to be trained 9

to watch for this and be able to facilitate that kind of a 10

day if they need to. But, the space is and has to be 11

organic, because they also know we don’t know what they 12

are coming from. 13

I think part of what draws them to the 14

space is -- it is a -- I can’t think of the word in 15

English. It is an organized space. So, you come in, take 16

your coats off, register, you sign-in, you eat your snack. 17

Fifteen, 20 minutes later, we go into the facilitated art. 18

So, it is not just art for the sake of art. “Here is what 19

we’re doing today.” 20

MS. JENNIFER COX: There is a schedule? 21

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: It is a schedule. It 22

is a routine for them. It is something they don’t have to 23

think about, but they know they are going to get something 24

out of it. I think that helps them stay calm for that 25

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hour-and-a-half. 1

MS. JENNIFER COX: One of the other things 2

you talked about with me was a Messy Book. 3


MS. JENNIFER COX: And, I am wondering if 5

you could describe for the Commissioners what that is. 6

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yes. So, what -- the 7

afterschool program, as I said, the 15, 20 minutes when 8

they first come to us while they are having their snack, 9

it is a really special quiet time. Everybody loves that 10

quiet time, because the three questions we ask them that 11

everybody gets to share in that time is, how was your day 12

-- how are you, how was your day and what did you learn or 13

what did you not learn today? What would you like to have 14

learned? And, everybody wants to share, but they are 15

never given an opportunity to share. So, everybody takes 16

a turn and has that 15, 20 minutes of conversation, and 17

then it is guided art. 18

But, the guided art, and I brought the 19

wrong book today -- this afternoon. I have it up in my 20

room. What they are given at the beginning of the program 21

is what I call the Messy Book Kit. And, what it is, is a 22

book of blank pages, a set of pencil crayons, a pen, a 23

pencil, an eraser and a glue stick. And, what they do in 24

there is -- it is your one thing in your life you know 25

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absolutely you have control over. So, when they come to 1

us, like I said, we don’t know what they are coming from, 2

we don’t know what they are going back to. Many of them 3

are living in a house of three bedrooms and 12, 13, 14, 15 4

people. They might not have had a meal that day. 5

So, we give them this Messy Book Kit as a 6

symbol of, we would love to change your personal 7

situation, but we can’t do that right now. We have no 8

control over those personal circumstances. Here is what 9

you have control over, your Messy Book Kit. What you put 10

in this book, what you write, the art you create, whatever 11

you want to put in here, you are in control of that. And, 12

they get it, they understand, and they create, and they 13

fill in this Messy Book Kit. Every single day, they put 14

something in that Messy Book Kit. 15

MS. JENNIFER COX: So, just a couple of 16

other questions, because we are running out of time here, 17

but to talk about a little about the Arctic Rose 18

Foundation. You did tell me a little bit about the 19

history of trying to seek support financially for it, and 20

I am wondering if you can tell the Commissioners a little 21

bit about that. 22

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: So, the couple of 23

times that I had gone to -- the first time was -- it was 24

between the Nunavut and NWT governments. They hadn’t 25

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fully transitioned yet. So, the first time was the NWT 1

government. The previous -- after that were approaching 2

my government, the Nunavut government. 3

And, I understand the need before they make 4

a commitment, a financial commitment, for traction. I 5

understand that, “We need to see how this works. What is 6

your plan? How is it going to,” -- any of that, that they 7

initially didn’t even contribute to the development of the 8

idea of it, invest in the ownership of its development and 9

progress, because why this works is it is organic. There 10

is -- there has to be that flexibility. 11

And, I wonder sometimes if their fear was 12

that there was no -- there was. There was a proposal in 13

place, but a way to measure outcomes. And, because -- the 14

real work we are doing is we know for the next couple of 15

generations, the root of our problems is specifically 16

child sex abuse. Most of us, lots -- many of us are 17

victims of child sex abuse, violence. And so, the girls 18

we get, the young people we get, are probably victims of 19

that, and that is not a pretty picture. How do you 20

package that and sell that? So, I don’t know. I don’t 21

know why it is such a hard thing to fund. 22

MS. JENNIFER COX: And, in this current 23

day, it is still not funded? 24

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: It is not. No. I got 25

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pilot year funding, and then I got another seven months. 1

MS. JENNIFER COX: And so, how do you 2

support the program financially right now? 3

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Well, now we are 4

developing a fundraising plan, so I would go into homes, 5

people who host home events and fundraise privately that 6

way. I am leveraging my celebrity. I am leveraging my 7

name to keep the funding going, to keep this program 8

running. 9

MS. JENNIFER COX: And, even though you 10

have had some success in the past couple of years, there 11

is not really any recognition still? 12

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Not yet, no. 13

MS. JENNIFER COX: So, in terms of going 14

forward, if there was a recommendation that the 15

Commissioners could make in relation to specifically Inuit 16

children, what would it be? 17

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I -- we really have to 18

invest in a period of -- we have to -- and I mentioned 19

this in February. There has to be a period of time -- 20

because there is so much healing that needs to take place 21

in our communities, there has to be a period of time where 22

we understand -- funding has to be accessible and the 23

right amount of funding. How did I get seven months when 24

a year would have been better? I need a full school year 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 239

to really make a difference here. How did I get seven -- 1

September to March? Who decided that that was enough to 2

make a change in that one community? 3

We have to take a look at that model and 4

figure out, what do we do differently to make sure that 5

our communities, for a period, a generation -- and I know 6

that is a long time. It is going to take more to really 7

heal. How do we make sure that the money is in place to 8

do the work that needs to be done? To really truly get 9

ahead of this healing process we need to get ahead of? 10

Whatever the language needs to be to ensure that the 11

funding is there, we got to figure that out. 12

I have a champion in Rankin Inlet who made 13

sure that I had that space again, otherwise I wouldn’t 14

have space to facilitate this program. And, because space 15

is at a premium in our Northern community, we need 16

facilities. We have none. 17

MS. JENNIFER COX: So, it is not just 18

funding, it is also -- you need infrastructure and 19

buildings, places --- 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: That’s right. Yes. 21

MS. JENNIFER COX: --- for healing and 22

activities? 23

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yes. Yes. Yes, I 24

think that is pretty much it for me, for my presentation. 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 240

MS. JENNIFER COX: So, Commissioners, what 1

the parties had agreed prior to Ms. Aglukark’s testimony 2

that there would only be four parties that would do cross-3

examination, and we are prepared, obviously, to go right 4

into that. Each party has been given 10 minutes. It is 5

my understanding all four are going to continue to -- my 6

colleague, Ms. Big Canoe, is -- there are going to be five 7

more parties? I can’t read your fingers. 8

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Two more. 9

MS. JENNIFER COX: Two more? Two-minute 10

break. 11

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Two 12

minutes. 13

MS. JENNIFER COX: Yes, thank you. 14


--- Upon resuming at 4:33 p.m./L'audience est reprise à 16

16h33 17

---PANEL III, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED 18

MS. JENNIFER COX: Excuse me, we're going 19

to have to get started with the cross-examination so that 20

we can move through given the limited amount of time we 21

have with Ms. Aglukark. 22

And just to sort of clarify, there are four 23

parties that will be cross-examining Ms. Aglukark. The 24

remaining parties with standing had agreed to waive their 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 241

right to cross-examination because we had a very short 1

period of time with Ms. Aglukark today and everybody 2

understood that. And so they were prepared to basically 3

give their time to those parties who have a direct 4

interest in the issues that Ms. Aglukark is raising in her 5

evidence. 6

And just a couple of housekeeping matters, 7

Chief Commissioner. I have a couple of exhibits that I 8

would like marked. Particularly, it's Tab C, which is the 9

description of the Arctic Rose Foundation, and I'd like to 10

mark that with the PowerPoint presentation that was 11

presented during Ms. Aglukark's testimony as one exhibit, 12

please. 13


The Arctic Rose Foundation and the PowerPoint collectively 15

are Exhibit 31. 16


The Arctic Rose Foundation document 18

(three pages) and Powerpoint 19

presentation (nine slides) 20



Counsel 23

MS. JENNIFER COX: And further, I'd like 24

the photograph that was shown of her great grandmother to 25

PANEL 3

In-Ch (COX) 242

be also marked as an exhibit. 1

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: The 2

photograph will be Exhibit 32, please. 3


Photograph displayed during the public 5

testimony of Susan Aglukark 6



Counsel 9

MS. JENNIFER COX: And finally, there is a 10

document called Inuit Cultural Transition: Resetting A 11

Transition Path, which Ms. Aglukark has authored and I'd 12

like to have that marked as an exhibit as well. 13

CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: Yes, 33 14

is Inuit Cultural Transition: Resetting A Transition Path, 15

by Ms. Aglukark. 16


“Inuit Cultural Transitioning: Re-18

setting a Transition Path,” by Susan 19

Aglukark (four pages) 20



Counsel 23

MS. JENNIFER COX: So we'll go right into 24

the cross-examination. The first party which -- with 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 243

10 minutes, is Inuit Tupiriit Kanatami, or ITK as I know 1

it, Elizabeth Zarpa. 2

---CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ZARPA: 3

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Hi. Good afternoon, 4

Ms. Aglukark. It's a pleasure to hear your testimony 5

today. It's nice to see another Inuk woman, which is not 6

too common down in these southern settings. I've learned 7

so much by just listening to your experiences and your 8

travels from living in Nunavut or Rankin Inlet, and then 9

moving to Ottawa. 10

One of the common -- and this is not meant 11

to be sort of like -- if this is a difficult question to 12

answer, just please let me know and we can move to the 13

next one. 14

And I think one of the common themes 15

throughout many of the hearings, which focuses on Inuit-16

specific issues, a common thread is the experience of 17

Inuit sexual assault in Nunavut, and Inuvialuit. And I 18

wanted to highlight a little bit around what the root 19

causes of that sort of experience, may it be a residential 20

school era, may it be like that historical knowledge of 21

understanding where it comes from, I think is important in 22

trying to move forward to move past that, so you don't 23

pass on that trauma to the next generation like you 24

mentioned. 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 244

And I just wanted to highlight to get an 1

idea of if you have any ideas around where it originated, 2

if you...? 3

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: M'hm. So as we know, 4

when we trace the political movement of our leaders in the 5

early years of Nunavut, late sixties and early seventies, 6

there was literally no suicides. As we moved forward in 7

terms of becoming politically empowered, I guess is the 8

right word, and one of the things I talked about was we 9

should also have been looking at what's going to change in 10

our communities in our environments in terms of socially. 11

Too much change too fast from traditional 12

to the contemporary Inuit world we now live in. Part of 13

that was as the social relationship was changing, our 14

interaction with ourselves and our communities, we were 15

getting access to other things outside of Inuit Nunaat. 16

Television, now Internet, all kinds of things. Access out 17

and access in, and this is just one of the possible 18

theories. 19

We weren't keeping up with managing what 20

they were accessing. That was one thing. Too much too 21

fast. And maybe, also, when our community environment was 22

changing, changing for the good, and changing for the bad, 23

we weren't providing resources as we should have been to 24

keep those communities on par with change. 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 245

So if there was a challenge in something 1

that happened in a home, before it escalated and became a 2

generational thing, a normal thing -- incest, child abuse 3

-- before those became more prevalent -- they weren't as 4

prevalent in the early years -- before they became this 5

way, we should have also been providing resources, and we 6

weren't. So they've gotten and turned into this bigger 7

problem, and it is a big problem, I know. 8

So those are just some of the possible 9

connections to why it's become such a problem now. Having 10

said that, also, many of those -- that generation were 11

first and second year residential school, and then they 12

became adults. And whatever they learned in residential 13

school became normal behaviour. So we're compounded a 14

couple of things that might contribute to why it's such a 15

problem in our communities. 16

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Okay. Thank you. 17

And you mentioned that you -- when you experienced a 18

traumatic event 27 years ago, there was a lack of services 19

or spaces, safe spaces for you to feel as though you can 20

somewhat process what was happening in a way where you 21

didn't feel -- where you felt supported. And you 22

mentioned the work of the Arctic Rose Foundation. 23

It's 27 years later now, and like 24

(indiscernible) Nunavut will be your home is your home. 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 246

Are there things that have risen, services, programs, 1

mandatory places where individuals can access services to 2

deal with things such as sexual assault? 3

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I think where access 4

has grown is we have got more social workers, we have got 5

mental health workers. I think where we need to do more 6

work, and investment research and understanding is how do 7

we provide truly effective culture-specific services. We 8

can provide only so much within the parameters that a 9

social worker is allowed to work, only so much within the 10

parameters that a mental health worker is allowed to work. 11

It is not culture-specific. We need to understand then, 12

what is that culture currently, so we know what kind of 13

work to develop around that. 14

So, there are more services, but they are 15

bound to whatever department or level of government they 16

work for. And, it is a much needed service, but I think 17

we also have to invest in independent as well, who know a 18

culture-specific approach and can do that. 19

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Right. And, earlier 20

this week, we heard of the child advocacy centre that is 21

being built in Iqaluit. 22

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Iqaluit, yes. 23

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: And, is it an 24

initiative such as this one, that you think is going to 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 247

help capacity? 1

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I think we need one in 2

every community, but I would settle for every region for 3

now. I think it will make a world of difference. 4

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Okay. And, you 5

highlighted earlier that the Arctic Rose Foundation, CRA 6

number 800801879RR001, is unique and it sounds like you 7

have taken your experience, traumatic experience 27 years 8

ago, and put in place a foundation that tries to address 9

those things that you feel that were not prevalent or 10

present when you left to go to Ottawa. 11

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Mm-hmm. 12

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: In terms of fiscal 13

funding, what is needed to make sure that these types of 14

culturally Inuit-specific safe spaces, who do you think is 15

best suited to be responsible for funding them and core 16

funding? 17

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: The Catholic church, 18

the Anglican church, the government -- all levels of 19

government. But, I think there needs to be a meaningful 20

investment. It does not have to just be the Arctic Rose 21

Foundation, the Arctic Children and Youth Foundation out 22

of Iqaluit is doing really incredible work as well. But, 23

there has to be a commitment from our leadership to prove 24

-- Nunavut leadership, to prove that they are truly 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (ZARPA) 248

invested in our communities and in our culture. 1

Investment in the Arctic Children and Youth Foundation and 2

the work they are doing. And, my foundation, if they 3

would. It is going to carry on with or without their 4

support and partnership. 5

But, if we are talking about healing, and 6

there is lots to do, lots of layers of healing that we 7

need to do, they all need to invest in it. We cannot just 8

say, only you and only you. Anyone who made the problem, 9

perpetuated the problem by ignoring it, and we have 10

leadership that has, they need to make that investment as 11

a commitment to -- yes, we are committed to changing the 12

problems in our communities. So, I cannot say one, but I 13

think there has to be a meaningful contribution in that 14

area from our people, our leaders. 15

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Great. And, one last 16

question for, say, Inuit youth who might be going through 17

some difficult times, and they do not have those safe 18

spaces in Inuit Nunangat, what are some words that you 19

would like to share with them, if they are watching? 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I would say that what 21

we are developing -- I am not patting myself on the back -22

- because we are engaging youth leaders right now, we are 23

training community workers to run this program in the 24

community. Hang in there. It is just one organization. 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (WAWZONEK) 249

We are going to grow it to every community as soon as we 1

get the opportunity. It is just one program. There’s 2

really great -- other great programs in Rankin Inlet. 3

And, the goal is to have so many that they have no choice 4

but to go somewhere else besides drugs and abuse in our 5

communities. No, just too much. Let’s give them too 6

much. 7

We are working towards that, so hang in 8

there. They are not forgotten. They are not forgotten. 9

We are working on solutions and independently outside of, 10

you know -- I cannot say rules and regulations because we 11

do follow them. Finding funding to make this happen. 12

But, it is happening. 13

MS. ELIZABETH ZARPA: Thank you so much. 14

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Okay. 15

MS. JENNIFER COX: The next party with 10 16

minutes is the Native Women’s Association of the Northwest 17

Territories, Caroline Wawzonek. 18

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: 19

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Good afternoon. 20

Thank you very much. And, I acknowledge the warm welcome 21

we have had this week here in Treaty 1 and in the homeland 22

of the Métis people. I am very privileged to be here for 23

the Native Women’s Association of the Northwest 24

Territories, they represent women of course across 25

PANEL 3


Northwest Territories, including Inuvialuit women and 1

girls. And, as you said, I think some of the issues that 2

are faced in Nunavut are still very similar in our 3

neighbouring territory. 4

I am mindful of my clock, so I want to ask 5

you my big question first if you will, and that is around 6

-- I think you had written in the materials that there is 7

really no Inuit art programs available for youth. I 8

assume that that is not just as an extracurricular, that 9

is in school programs as well? 10

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I do not know that I 11

wrote that. I do not think I have made that claim. What 12

we are offering through the foundation is a little bit 13

different in that it is an organic process, so whatever 14

art they want to explore, we are going to bring it to 15

them. But, there is a lot of great art programs in 16

general, so I do not recall ever making that claim. 17

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Okay. 18


MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: I may have misread 20

it, absolutely. But, from what you are saying, the youth 21

are finding a voice and expression through art that seems 22

to be very powerful? 23

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 24

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Is there a broader 25

PANEL 3


recommendation around the use of art for Indigenous youths 1

-- again speaking quite broadly, would there be a 2

recommendation in favour of having programs for art for 3

youths so that they can heal and learn to express 4

themselves in a positive way? 5

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yes. And, one of my -6

- one of the girls that comes to the program -- so the 7

Messy Book Kit we gave them is probably about 70 pages. 8

Between January and when I came back to the program in 9

February, she had been through the whole book. She filled 10

it cover to cover. She created her own art. 11

So, I sat down with her and I was stunned. 12

She was producing more art than I was, and it is my job. 13

So, I sat down with her and I asked her, so if you could 14

do this as a job, would you do it? And, she goes, yes, 15

what kind of job would it be? Well, you can be an art 16

therapist. We could guide you through school, get you 17

graduated, then we can get you through college, we can get 18

you through university, you could come back here and you 19

could take over the program. You could take over the 20

development of this, grow it for the next generation. 21

So, it is much bigger than just art 22

therapy. They are dreamers. We are waking up dreamers. 23

And, dreaming, as we know, we do not have these 24

conversations with our Indigenous children and youth. 25

PANEL 3


Dreaming is not this willy-nilly, just butterfly thing 1

that, you just -- oh, it feels good and I am going to wish 2

for this. We have to take it seriously and nurture the 3

dreamer. And so, that is what we have done and here is 4

the possible next part that now this young girl is 5

seriously looking at doing. 6

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: That actually takes 7

me to my more specific questions around the participants 8

themselves. And, I am just wondering, do they self-select 9

to participate or are they sort of --- 10

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: It is entirely 11

volunteer. They are not required to show up every day, 12

but they do. 13

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Can you say whether 14

there has been any specific efforts to outreach to LGBTQ 15

and two-spirit youths specifically? 16

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I would say that there 17

have been two so far that have come out with me, because 18

they are comfortable enough to in that space. So, we are 19

not advertising it, but we are certainly not turning it 20

away. 21

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: And then with 22

respect to the program delivery, is there focus on using 23

local artists or --- 24

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Always. 25

PANEL 3



MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Always. We bring them 2

in, or if we can't find -- well we hire them, if we can't, 3

we bring them in. They're all Inuit facilitators. 4



MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: And so the 7

facilitators, are they trained both in art and in sort of 8

the program delivery aspect in terms of emotional 9

supports, or is it one or the other? 10

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: No. So what we do is 11

there will be the emotional support worker and then the 12

guest artists, and both in Inuktitut. 13

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: M'hm. 14


MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: And then I guess 16

one other question on that. I know you did mention that 17

so many artists themselves are survivors. How do you go 18

about, or what steps do you take to ensure that they're 19

safe to be with the vulnerable youths themselves? 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Well, when we -- so 21

I'm in the fortunate, sometimes, unfortunate position of 22

hearing everybody's story. So I have a -- kind of a 23

database, if you will, of artists whose stories I've 24

heard. I've seen them and witnessed them in action, so I 25

PANEL 3


have this database. And so what I'll tell them is if we 1

grow this foundation program to your community, would you 2

consider being an art facilitator? Absolutely. So we 3

would have to sit down and make sure that you feel safe 4

doing this. Here's what you are, here's what you're not. 5

They all understand you're not a 6

counsellor, you're not a mental health worker, you're not 7

a trained expert. We're just here to share art as an 8

outlet and to talk through what creating art, how it makes 9

you feel, and focus on the positive stuff. Work through 10

the negative. 11

So they're trained to do that, but they -- 12

everybody there, including the participants, understand 13

we're not social workers, we're not psychiatrists, we're 14

not mental health workers. Everybody knows that when they 15

come to that room. But yes, the artist facilitators are 16

given opportunity and support when they need it. 17

MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Okay. And just a 18

last question. To the extent that you are engaging with 19

those artists and seeking them out, has there been any 20

efforts to date in terms of identifying artists with an 21

LGBTQ and two-spirt background? 22


MS. CAROLINE WAWZONEK: Okay. Thank you 24

very much. 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (STEWART) 255

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: You're welcome. 1

MS. JENNIFER COX: So the third party that 2

will be given 10 minutes is Roy Stewart with NunatuKavut 3

Community Council Inc. 4

---CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. STEWART: 5

MR. ROY STEWART: Good Afternoon. Thank 6

you for being here (inaudible) to share your story with 7

us. 8

I guess first to introduce myself. My name 9

is Roy Stewart, and I'm here representing the NunatuKavut 10

Community Council, which is the representative 11

organization for the Inuit in Southern and Central 12

Labrador. So you know, a bit far from where your home 13

territory is, but I feel like there's a lot of 14

similarities with, you know, the history that you shared 15

today, and so I think the few questions I have for you are 16

going to be based on that. 17

So in the document that we were provided, 18

the Arctic Rose Foundation information, it states that 19

youth have identified areas they need help with, and two 20

of those are cultural disconnect and access to healthy 21

foods. 22

And so NunatuKavut youth face similar 23

barriers or have similar concerns. You know, their 24

ancestors too were forced to settle into communities, you 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (STEWART) 256

know, which is rather recently, and the impact from that 1

has been, you know, great. 2

But you know, I agree with you that we 3

can't blame that remoteness factor on, you know, why some 4

NunatuKavut communities have, you know, no running water, 5

why members have to drink soda because there's no 6

drinkable water. I just don't think we can use that 7

remoteness as a -- as an excuse. 8

But compounding that, you know, the impact 9

of -- or compounding the remoteness is that, you know, 10

government, private proponents continue to develop 11

NunatuKavut territory, continue, you know, stealing the 12

resources. And impacts from this are that the land spaces 13

for NunatuKavut youth is shrinking, the access to healthy 14

country foods is increasingly getting smaller or poisoned, 15

you know, whether it's methyl mercury, and what have you. 16

And you know, during the racism hearing in 17

Toronto, Dr. Barry Lavallee said that -- and I'm 18

paraphrasing -- he explained that the killing and stealing 19

of our lands is, you know, it's killing our bodies, it's 20

killing our Indigenous cultures. And to seemingly, you 21

know, counteract that, or to address that, you explain 22

that the development of programs to help address this 23

identity and culture crisis through art. 24

And I was just wondering, you know, you 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (STEWART) 257

explained that for art therapy you ask the youth what they 1

need to perform or carry out the form of art they want. 2

And so what if the youth needs access to their traditional 3

territory? In your view, how important is that physical 4

connection for youth to carry out whatever form of art 5

they want and heal, or begin the healing process of this 6

intergenerational trauma? 7

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: So when you say access 8

to traditional territory, the program is -- right now the 9

pilot community is Rankin Inlet. You mean literally 10

access to the territory, the land, and its resources? 11

MR. ROY STEWART: Well, I mean, you know, 12

say if a youth comes to you, and say he or she doesn't, 13

you know, want to sing or draw, and there's some form of 14

art where they want to be, you know, where their ancestors 15

were, you know, whatever form of art that may be. I 16

guess, does your programming or have you thought about 17

that aspect of the healing process? 18

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: So the second part of 19

the program is called Creative Cultural Reflections. So 20

this is the academic part. And what they do in that 21

program is participants are challenged to identify an 22

ancestor, an Elder, a grandparent, or something in their 23

past, traditional past, that they would like to explore. 24

They could say I want to understand how they knew the 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (STEWART) 258

technology and science behind building a kayak. How did 1

they know it wouldn't sink? So if they ask us these 2

questions, they get access to a local expert who knows how 3

to build a kayak. Same with the igloo. 4

These are all creative processes. It may 5

not be art as we know it, but they are all creative 6

processes and culturally informing processes. 7

So the Creative Cultural Reflections 8

program combines that kind of a culture connection, 9

research, writing, and then if they want they can turn it 10

into other art. But I think that's what you're asking, is 11

they have access to traditional knowledge still in their 12

community. 13

MR. ROY STEWART: So if that's the option 14

that they're choosing then they need that physical access? 15


MR. ROY STEWART: Right. 17

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: We'll make those 18

partnerships happen. Yeah. 19

MR. ROY STEWART: So my second question is 20

on that -- the Arctic Rose as well. In the document 21

provided, I think you're the author of, it says, "We", you 22

know, the Inuit: 23

"...have an extraordinary past, much of which has been 24

kept from us and removed from the history books." (As 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (STEWART) 259

read) 1

Now that quote resonates with a 2

presentation that Amy Hudson gave at the -- earlier in 3

this Inquiry. She presented on the history of the Inuit 4

of NunatuKavut and the lived realities of the women and 5

youth in those communities. And Ms. Hudson explained how, 6

you know, reporting, studies, academia, until rather 7

recently, have all been told from a non-Inuit male 8

perspective, which has essentially erased the role of 9

Inuit -- of NunatuKavut Inuit women, you know, in the 10

stories and communities begin to internalize that. 11

And -- but instead of, you know, just 12

reflecting on, you know, the wrong that has been done, 13

Ms. Hudson takes a strength-based or a community knowledge 14

approach and uses that approach, you know, to attempt to 15

begin revitalizing the culture in the communities. 16

And I was just wondering, you know, this 17

afternoon you explained how finding appropriate programs 18

to heal must be created by Inuit for the Inuit. Now, 19

given that, you know, the story has been told one-sided, 20

what recommendation would you give to the Commissioners to 21

ensure that, you know, we get reset on that path where 22

Inuit women and Inuit youth have their stories told and, 23

you know, whether it’s articles, history books or the 24

education system? 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (STEWART) 260

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I would recommend that 1

-- and a lot of it is documented, what I’m going to 2

recommend. Sorry. So, in my region, we had for many, 3

many years the Inuit Cultural Institute, which was started 4

up by our local leader, Mark (Galuak phonetic), and he did 5

a lot of recording and documenting of elders and Kivalliq 6

specific history. It’s -- the institute no longer runs, 7

but there’s all this documented research recorded -- 8

recordings of our elders from that region. 9

What I recommend is that we have to believe 10

and acknowledge that at this stage, it’s a stage of 11

urgency in that we still have access to traditional Inuit 12

where this is our parents’ generation. We need to include 13

them in the correcting of that narrative, and I had a 14

profound moment with my mother about three years ago when 15

I was beginning to write the (Iliak page, Illigasuk), this 16

emotional fear, and my mother wanted to understand what 17

that was for me. Why do I Illigasuk? And, I tried to 18

explain maybe these are the generational disconnects that 19

contribute to this generation feeling Illigasuk all the 20

time. 21

So, she asked me -- I’m the middle child of 22

seven -- “Do you Illigasuk?” I said, “Mom, every day. 23

Every day, even now, I still harbour this little bit of 24

fear that I’ve done something wrong and somebody is going 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (SYMES) 261

to go and correct me.” I asked her, “Don’t you?” 1

“Never.” 2

Seventy-years-old and we had this 3

conversation. She had never, ever once said, “I have 4

never Illigasuk.” So, there’s something to those 5

formative years and the traditional ways that they were 6

brought up that speaks to the healthy way that traditional 7

Inuit taught, and we can still access that information, 8

but that’s -- they’re in their seventies now, and we need 9

to record them now and record everything about how they 10

tell their story, because that’s how they taught; their 11

body, their face, their inflection, their voice, the words 12

they chose. We have access to that still, and we need to 13

do that urgently now. So, that would be my 14

recommendation, because that’s where some of that cultural 15

connecting healing can happen. 16

MR. ROY STEWART: I’d like to keep you 17

talking, but unfortunately, I’m out of time. Thank you. 18

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Thank you. 19

MS. JENNIFER COX: And, the last party with 20

10 minutes is Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada, and I will 21

-- with Beth Symes. 22

--- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. BETH SYMES: 23

MS. BETH SYMES: Thank you. Ms. Aglukark, 24

Rebecca Kudloo and I came to Rankin Inlet, and we heard 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (SYMES) 262

you tell your story in February of this year. I was blown 1

away by your story, and I am inspired by you turning it 2

into a life work to make the lives of Inuit children 3

better. Thank you. 4

I also wanted to thank you for agreeing to 5

-- that I can ask you certain questions, and I will be 6

careful. 7

You told the story in Rankin Inlet that you 8

were one of several Inuit girls who had been sexually 9

abused by a neighbour when you were all children; is that 10

correct? 11


MS. BETH SYMES: And then at some point 13

later, when you were -- were you actually then an adult 14

that he was then convicted? 15

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: In my case? 16

MS. BETH SYMES: Yes. 17


MS. BETH SYMES: And, despite multiple 19

children who were affected, he was sentenced to six 20

months? 21

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: He was sentenced to 18 22

months; served a third. 23

MS. BETH SYMES: Eighteen months. Okay. 24

And, you said then, of course, after whatever time is 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (SYMES) 263

mandatory, he came back to Rankin Inlet? 1


MS. BETH SYMES: And, you used a word of 3

deference, and you said that he was accepted back into 4

your church, and that the idea was “forgive him”. 5


MS. BETH SYMES: Susan, you didn’t have a 7

safe space back then when this happened, did you? 8

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: No. 9

MS. BETH SYMES: And, you, I guess, using 10

this deference, left. If he was welcome back into your 11

community and into your community of faith, then you left; 12

is that fair? 13


MS. BETH SYMES: There was no room for you. 15

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: No. 16

MS. BETH SYMES: Because you didn’t feel 17

safe. 18

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Right. 19

MS. BETH SYMES: And, when you told the 20

story in Rankin Inlet, what was just shocking to every 21

person in that room was that he had been charged again 22

with sexually abusing other Inuit girls. 23


MS. BETH SYMES: And, shortly after you 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (SYMES) 264

told your story in Rankin Inlet, he pled guilty shortly 1

after; meaning in the month of February, he pled guilty. 2


MS. BETH SYMES: And, on June 13th, 2018, 4

he was sentenced to 15 months in jail. 5


MS. BETH SYMES: Susan, that’s less than he 7

got the first time. 8


MS. BETH SYMES: Is that correct? And, of 10

course, according to our system, he will be free to, if he 11

wants to, return to Rankin Inlet in the spring. 12


MS. BETH SYMES: This is a man who has, 14

over many years, damaged many, many Inuit girls. 15

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: And boys. 16

MS. BETH SYMES: And boys. I didn’t know 17

that. You talked about the life long impact that that 18

sexual abuse has had on you even, as you said, you are 19

incredibly successful as an artist. And, yet, within you, 20

that remains; is that so? 21


MS. BETH SYMES: And so, would you agree 23

with me that child sexual abuse is a huge problem for 24

Inuit children? 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (SYMES) 265


MS. BETH SYMES: And, that for each of 2

these children, they undoubtedly carry the same or 3

different, but scars, that will be with them for the rest 4

of their life? 5

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Absolutely. 6

MS. BETH SYMES: Susan, we’ve heard in the 7

various places where Inuit families and survivors have 8

told their stories that they actually told teachers or 9

nurses or police that they had been sexually abused, in 10

one case by a grandfather, in another case by an older 11

brother, you by a neighbour, and that nothing happened, 12

that they took out of that that was their fault. How can 13

we change that? 14

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I don’t know that 15

that’s a one answer solution; right? That’s what I mean 16

about layers. I think we need to take a look at all the 17

things that are in crisis in our communities. Housing is 18

one. Child, provide adequate -- I don’t want to say -- 19

the best possible child services that we can provide for 20

Indigenous children and youth, and I actually wanted to 21

add to one of my recommendations that we do need to have a 22

better look at the Child Protection Act, if it hasn’t 23

already been done or started, for Indigenous children and 24

youth. That needs to be rewritten to reflect the time 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (SYMES) 266

that we’re going to need to invest in understanding, 1

researching, developing and facilitating whatever we need 2

to, to make our communities safe for children to be 3

innocent children. I don’t know what that is going to 4

look like, but that is what we need to do. If it is $10 5

billion, it is $10 billion, but that is the future of our 6

children. 7

MS. BETH SYMES: And, in terms of housing, 8

the problem with respect to housing in Inuit Nunangat is 9

that it is terribly overcrowded. 10


MS. BETH SYMES: And, it then is not a safe 12

place for some children. 13


MS. BETH SYMES: And then in terms of there 15

being a lack of services when a child comes forward with 16

the story that what has happened to them and their family, 17

how do you say priorities should be set, you know, in 18

terms of the provision of the utter fundamentals to make 19

Inuit children safe? 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: I always say that 21

there isn’t -- we can’t invest in one generation. So, for 22

example, the work we are doing with the Arctic Rose 23

Foundation, the afterschool space is for middle school to 24

high school aged children and youth. What we are also 25

PANEL 3

Cr-Ex (SYMES) 267

doing are private grief and trauma sessions for the 1

parents of those children who came to me and said, “I need 2

help. How can you help me?” 3

So, when we talk about developing 4

multigenerational programming, we have to do that. We 5

have to make investments in programming to 6

multigenerations simultaneously, because two generations 7

are hurting in one household. 8

I think the same has to be applied to any 9

kind of solution we are looking at to healing our 10

communities. If we are investing in a solution to the 11

housing prices, we have to invest just as much into 12

program services. If we are investing the equal amount 13

into program services, we have to invest equal amounts 14

into several generations being provided in terms of 15

services. It is not one or the other, or we can only give 16

you this much for this and only this much for that. 17

I think also it is not just Inuit in Inuit 18

Nunangat. It is also urban Inuit. 19

MS. BETH SYMES: Absolutely. 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: We have a large 21

population that lives outside of Inuit Nunangat. We have 22

to make those same investments for those people. 23

MS. BETH SYMES: Susan, you have this 24

dream, the dream of having a safe place, safe space for 25

PANEL 3

Questions (ROBINSON) 268

Inuit children in every community. I wish you well. 1


MS. BETH SYMES: Thank you. 3

MS. JENNIFER COX: Those are all the 4

parties with cross-examination, and I don’t have any 5

questions on re-exam. 6

--- QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: 7

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: (Speaking 8

Inuktitut). I do have some questions. You spoke about 9

correcting the narrative. And, a lot of previous 10

recommendations and other reports talk about the 11

importance of understanding and really knowing the true 12

history of Canada and how Canada was established. 13

And, as you were talking, understanding 14

that narrative of your (Speaking Inuktitut), your great 15

grandmother, and those relocations, I mean that truth is 16

coming out with (Speaking Inuktitut) recent settlement for 17

that forcible relocation, but those are still not in the 18

education system. And, you spoke about how important it 19

is for that narrative to be corrected and to be educated 20

for as many people as possible to know that. 21

And, of course, I think fundamentally, and 22

we have heard from Dr. Bombay, the power of knowing the 23

history and the narrative to understand the current 24

context. She was talking about how it is actually a piece 25

PANEL 3


of building resilience for the children of residential 1

school survivors to know that history. It lifts that, 2

“Well, this was me, I was bad or my people were bad.” 3

When you talk about the importance of 4

correcting that narrative on a personal level, what Ms. 5

Bombay shared with us, (Speaking Inuktitut), is that how 6

you understand it as well? Like, what I want to build on 7

what you see is the importance of that. 8

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: So, the first year of 9

the work, we started this work, we got seed funding from a 10

private family fund early 2017. And, the work I was 11

developing was actually the Creative Cultural Reflections 12

work, not just the Messy Book work. The CCR program was 13

the piece that I was investing in at that time. 14

I worked with a young girl, Inuk, and she 15

came and worked with me for six weeks in Toronto. And, 16

one of her tasks was to try the CCR program with me. And 17

so, what she was tasked with was select an ancestor and 18

have at it. Do research. Let’s see what is out there for 19

information on our ancestors. She selected her 20

grandfather on her dad’s side, Inuk from Baffin, and she 21

now lives in Neki-valuk (phonetic). 22

And, about two days into her research, into 23

her internship working with me, she came to me, and she 24

sat down and she said, “I had no idea.” So, I said, “Tell 25

PANEL 3


me. What did you find?” And, she said that she 1

discovered that her father -- her grandfather had been 2

engaged in a research project by the University of 3

Manitoba mid-nineteen -- late 1950’s to early 1960’s, 4

because her grandfather had a lot of it -- not the most 5

for that region, traditional knowledge on roots and 6

berries, and nutrients from Inuit Nunangat. He knew what 7

was what there. And, the University of Manitoba was 8

collecting information on this stuff, traditional Inuit 9

knowledge in this area. 10

And, she got pretty emotional and she said, 11

“I’m so ashamed. I was ashamed of him thinking he was 12

just a silly, old, poor Inuk man. But, the more I learn 13

about what he had in terms of traditional knowledge and 14

that he could contribute to a university research project, 15

at that time, at that level, probably all Inuktituut 16

translated,” (speaking Indigenous language). 17

So, probably because he couldn’t speak 18

English, most likely, all Inuk -- so with all those 19

challenges that he met them at their level, contributed 20

his knowledge and now he is acknowledged in these research 21

documents. And, she said her take away was, “I understand 22

now correct (indiscernible) because we believe the one we 23

have been told and we are living by the one that we have 24

been told. 25

PANEL 3


So, when I invest in correcting the -- the 1

idea of correcting a narrative, mine is to say this 2

generation needs to shift the line of where our heroes 3

are, and they are much further back than we realize. If 4

we find those stories and make those connections like she 5

did, she will stand up differently. She will be a prouder 6

Inuk. It is not just we need to be more knowledgeable 7

about Inuit. We need to be engaged in that story. We 8

need to know that story. 9

So, in that way, that is where I come from 10

when I talk about correcting that narrative. That is the 11

one that we need to -- those are the gaps we need to fill 12

in for the next generation. 13

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: One, because 14

it is the truth and, two, because of the power it has for 15

healing. (Speaking Indigenous language). Having to 16

switch back to English in my brain. One of the things 17

that I am also thinking about is how fundamental healing 18

be in the objective of all the institutions that a child 19

encounters within their formative years and within their 20

developmental years, from birth till death, realistically. 21

And, you know, to have that safe space and 22

to have that period of time to do that healing I think 23

requires that these institutions, particularly school and 24

any early childhood programs or institutions that get 25

PANEL 3


involved in a child’s life, and then that would also 1

include child and family services, health centres. You 2

name it, any of these institutions, that healing and well-3

being has to fundamentally be the goal. 4

I think about your program and it would be 5

beautiful if an entire school was that space for all the 6

children. And, in the community centre was that space. 7

And, to keep just growing those spaces from being that one 8

room to being your entire community. 9

Cindy Blackstock, earlier today, talked 10

about the need to have time to dream about the future, and 11

one of the key things that has to be done. And, when you 12

talked about allowing kids to be dreamers, it just fit 13

with what Cindy was saying about to dream as nations, to 14

dream as communities, you need -- what you have identified 15

the children to be dreaming. 16

So, I have connected those dots and I 17

wanted to share that with you so you could either tell me 18

I am wrong or help me (speaking in Indigenous language), 19

to make sure I am fully understanding. 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: So, the facility is in 21

the high school because that is where we had access to 22

space. I do not disagree with you that I wish our 23

learning environments were also healing environments, but 24

I think when we talk about a period where we are going to 25

PANEL 3


have to invest in everything for a period of time, part of 1

that investment -- I was not a good student. Like, I 2

really struggled in school, to the point where I thought I 3

was an idiot. 4

I dropped out of high school. I ended up 5

in a private school the next year. In that private 6

school, because they taught differently, I was a month 7

late, and because of the standard of learning being lower, 8

I was supposed to be grade 10, I was dropped to grade 9. 9

So, technically, I was going to be two years behind when I 10

finished that year. I finished grade 9 and 10 with an 89 11

percent average and I left realizing I am not stupid, I am 12

not an idiot, I just learn differently and I loved being a 13

student. I realized I want to be a better student, I want 14

to learn. 15

So, I think when we make these investments, 16

an education facility has to be an education facility, and 17

we need better access to whatever we need to create better 18

learners, because we can. We need to teach them 19

differently if that is what we have to do, but we can 20

create more passionate students and we have to. The 21

healing spaces I think should be separate from that. I 22

think learning should be a separate love than healing. 23

Right now, it is there and it is working where it is, but 24

I think it should be two separate spaces. 25

PANEL 3


I think the community also, during that 1

time, needs to learn to invest in a stronger community, 2

and part of that is teachers and educators should not have 3

the additional role of being social workers, nurses and 4

parents. Learning in education facilities should be 5

separate, and then all the other stuff should be a 6

community thing, stronger -- because we can and we should. 7

We have beautiful communities, we need to make them 8

stronger. Investing for a time in creating strength and 9

healing in separate things, I think -- that is what I 10

think would work in our communities. 11

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: Nakurmiik. 12

The power of art and -- you go into any -- even the 13

galleries here, you see so much Inuit art. Yet, there are 14

not any institutions or centres even within Nunavut to 15

foster and grow Inuit art. And, I know right now there is 16

a push to create Qaggiq, Nunavut Performing Arts and 17

Cultural Learning Centre. I am wondering if you have 18

thoughts on the importance and the need for centres 19

focused on art, Inuit art. 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yes. I believe we 21

cannot have a healthy community without having a healthy 22

artist community. Even if I were not a recovering person, 23

even if these last roughly 20 years had not been a healing 24

journey versus just a creative journey, art would still 25

PANEL 3


have contributed to something powerful inside of me. Art 1

is never just about art. This is the greatest lesson I 2

have learned from it, my greatest takeaway, the thing I am 3

the most proud of is, art has made me a whole balanced 4

person. And, if we do not provide a facility where we can 5

offer people access to university education, sports and/or 6

arts, we are not investing in the whole person. Art is a 7

great equalizer, is a great balancer. We need balance. 8

It cannot just be sports. It cannot just be academics. 9

It has to be a balance. And, that is a healthy community. 10

We need that arts facility in Iqaluit. I think we need -- 11

Inuit need their own space. 12

And, part of what is exciting about that 13

possibility is Inuit -- Inuyugung (phonetic), Canadian 14

Inuit right now, we have an incredible opportunity. We 15

are talking about correcting the narrative and we need the 16

right people to write that narrative. Like, I am not a 17

writer, I am not an academic at all. I struggle to write 18

these things. But, I know that about myself and I am okay 19

with that. And then I have a sister who is a brilliant 20

lawyer, who is the opposite side of the brain. And, 21

giving young people opportunities to access both sides, I 22

think, is critical. 23

We have to be able to offer them those 24

opportunities, because when we correct the narrative, 25

PANEL 3


somebody has to write that and that somebody has to also 1

be a culture-specific person. A person who is Inuk or 2

grew up among Inuit who understands how we process 3

information, share information, it becomes resource to 4

learn and teach in the schools, in the universities. Art 5

has to contribute to that, you know? So, they are 6

connected. They have to be. They have to be connected 7

and they both contribute equally to the balanced person. 8

COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: And, I think 9

if both can connect the dots, then to -- what that means 10

for our healthy community that has -- provides safe space. 11

So, the link to safety is apparent. 12


COMMISSIONER QAJAQ ROBINSON: (Speaking in 14

Indigenous language). 15

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: (Speaking in 16




MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: (Speaking in 20




--- QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: 24

COMMISSIONER BRIAN EYOLFSON: Ms. Aglukark, 25

PANEL 3

Questions (EOYLFSON/AUDETTE) 277

I just want to say, thank you very much for coming here 1

and sharing with us, telling us a bit about your journey 2

and sharing with us about your work with the foundation. 3

I do not have any additional questions, so thank you. 4


--- QUESTIONS BY COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: 6

COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: Merci. On 7

vous a remis des écouteurs, là, pour… 8

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Oh. 9

COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: Yes. I wish 10

I spoke Inuktitut, but I am still waiting for some 11

teaching two years after. Well, I speak more English 12

because of her, so. Bien, merci, je vais attendre. 13

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Yes. Yes. 14

COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: C’est 15

correct? Yeah? Je ne sais pas quand est-ce que vous êtes 16

venus à Maliotenam, au Festival Innunikamu, avec… dans ma 17

… … nous étions très très jeunes à cette époque-là, 18

j’étais étudiante et je veux juste vous dire : vous ne 19

changez pas, physiquement! (LAUGHS/RIRES) 20

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Add a pound to make up 21

a year. 22

COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: 23

(LAUGHS/RIRES) Déjà là, à cette époque, les gens de ma 24

communauté, les Inuits et les Innus, ma nation, on a 25

PANEL 3

Questions (AUDETTE) 278

côtoyé les mêmes territoires dans le nord du Québec et mon 1

grand-père était un guide pour les Américains, les 2

Français qui se rendaient jusqu’à Fort Chimo. Alors, il y 3

a eu beaucoup d’amitiés avec le peuple inuit et quelques 4

gens, parfois, venaient à la maison, à Schefferville. 5

Donc, c’est une culture qui a été 6

tranquillement introduite dans ma vie, mais très mythique, 7

très proche de ses légendes, de sa richesse, tant par les 8

étoiles, les animaux, l’art, les dessins, les chants. Mais 9

jamais je n’avais été confrontée à cette réalité, une fois 10

rendue à Montréal, où je travaillais, au Centre d’amitié 11

de Montréal, où j’étais impliquée avec les femmes 12

autochtones, où là, nos sœurs inuites vivaient des 13

difficultés que… c’était frappant. 14

Alors, j’avais 16 ans la première fois que 15

j’ai vu cette grande tristesse, mais aussi cette grande 16

résilience. Et c’est là où j’ai vu Susan Aglukark à 17

Maliotenam amener de l’espoir pour les femmes inuites, 18

bien sûr, mais aussi pour les femmes autochtones. Donc, je 19

voulais faire une petite parenthèse, vous dire un gros 20

gros merci pour ce que vous faites. 21

Et pourquoi cette parenthèse? Vous avez 22

parlé de héros dans votre témoignage ; aux yeux de bien 23

des gens, même si nous ne sommes pas Inuits, vous êtes un 24

grande héroïne. Alors ça, c’est important de rapporter ça 25

PANEL 3


dans votre cœur et le travail que vous faites. 1

Mais si jamais vous aviez… je ne sais pas 2

si, dans vos légendes, on dit « baguette magique », mais 3

quand je raconte des histoires à mes enfants, on dit 4

« baguette magique » par moments, je vous offrais cette 5

capacité-là de venir tout d’un coup magicienne et, dans 6

cette magie-là, vous devenez la Première Ministre du 7

Canada, ça serait quoi les changements que vous 8

apporteriez pour votre peuple? Première question. 9

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Jeepers. She’s 10

looking at me. I would start with putting -- placing an 11

Indigenous person in positions of decision-making power, 12

whatever area that is in. What’s the level of decision 13

making in the world of justice? Is that a justice? Is 14

that what it is? Put an Indigenous person in there. Why 15

don’t we have an Indigenous person as the Minister of 16

Indian Affairs of Indigenous Affairs? 17

You know, all the positions where decisions 18

are being made, I would start with let’s put an Indigenous 19

person as part of a decision-making team; meaningful, real 20

decisions. I think I’d start with that. And then I would 21

go and make sure that Jordan’s Principle was passed. I 22

want to be Cindy Blackstock’s magic wand. 23

I would want to understand why it’s taken 24

so long to solve the housing problem and the water -- 25

PANEL 3


healthy water problem in our Indigenous communities. 1

We’re not getting all that information. Why aren’t we 2

getting all that information? What’s going on? Where is 3

it stopping, and why is it stopping there? If I were the 4

Prime Minister, maybe I could just say, “Well, let’s fix 5

it all.” I would want to understand why they’re not being 6

solved. They can’t be that big a problem that we would 7

let the housing crisis carry on for as long as it has. I 8

don’t understand that. 9

I would just -- why should Indigenous 10

people live in Third-World conditions in a country like 11

ours? I don’t understand that. I would want to know why. 12

I would want to fix that. And, not to say it should be 13

unequal for the non-Indigenous, not to -- “we’ve got to 14

fix this because we’re owed this.” Just basic humanity. 15

Make it equal across the board. That’s what I would -- 16

that’s just some of the things. We could talk all day, go 17

down the list. I think that’s where I would start. 18

COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: Well, you 19

would do an amazing Prime Minister. You would do an 20

amazing Prime Minister. 21

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: Let’s ask me if I 22

would. No. 23

COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: My last 24

comment/question, you talked about… l’éloignement ne 25

PANEL 3


devrait pas… being far. I’ll speak French. Thank you. 1


COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: Merci. 3

Sorry. Vous avez parlé de l’éloignement, que ça ne 4

devrait pas être un motif… un motif de quoi, pour bien 5

comprendre? Un motif de discrimination ou d’injustice? 6

Juste pour être sûre? 7

MS. SUSAN AGLUKARK: That’s right. It 8

shouldn’t factor into who gets more services and how much. 9

You know, it shouldn’t. I think of the high Arctic 10

regions, and why should a litre of milk cost five, six, 11

seven times more up there than it does here in Winnipeg? 12

It shouldn’t in this day and age, in this country. We 13

have to find solutions for that stuff. 14

COMMISSIONER MICHÈLE AUDETTE: Bien, merci 15

beaucoup! Thank you so much, and too bad you said no. No, 16

thank you. 17


CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: I don’t 19

have any questions. That’s one of the benefits of going 20

last. I just want to say I’m very glad that you never 21

lost your ability to dream, and I hope you never lose your 22

ability to dream. By coming here today, you’ve really 23

impacted how we do our work and how we will continue to do 24

our work. You’ve made a big difference. And so, we’re 25

PANEL 3

282

very grateful for that. 1

I think sort of with hindsight, maybe 10 2

years if I live that long, I look back on doing this work 3

I’m going think, “There’s somebody who took what could 4

have been amazing tragedy and turned it into something 5

wonderful.” So, I want to thank you. 6

Also, on behalf of all of us, I want to say 7

thank you for changing it, how we do our work here, and 8

making such a big difference. Please, on behalf of all of 9

us, pass on hugs and love to all of the children in your 10

program. 11


CHIEF COMMISSIONER MARION BULLER: On 13

behalf of all of us. We have a small gift to give you in 14

exchange for the gifts that you’ve given us today, and it 15

is an eagle feather, to hold you up, oh, during many 16

moments, I’m sure, that you need holding up, and to help 17

you fly higher when you know you can. 18

So, it’s a small gift, but it’s an 19

indication of how much we truly appreciate your work. So, 20

thank you. Thank you very much, and we wish you safe 21

travels as well. So, on that note, we will adjourn to 22

tomorrow morning at 8:00. 23

MS. JENNIFER COX: I just have one 24

housekeeping item, and that is that the parties with 25

PANEL 3

283

standing are to report to the Assiniboine Ballroom by 7:30 1

a.m. to draw their numbers for cross-examination tomorrow, 2

and we will close the draw at 8:25 a.m. So, please see us 3

at the -- if you’re looking to cross-examine tomorrow, 4

between 7:30 and 8:25 in the Assiniboine Ballroom, please. 5

(GIFT PRESENTATION) 6

--- Upon adjourning at 5:41 7

8

9

10

11

284

LEGAL DICTA-TYPIST’S CERTIFICATE

I, Félix Larose-Chevalier, Court Transcriber, hereby

certify that I have transcribed the foregoing and it is a

true and accurate transcript of the digital audio provided

in this matter.

__________________________

Félix Larose-Chevalier

October 3, 2018

National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous ......Oct 03, 2018 · Paloma Corrin (Legal...

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Transcript of National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous ......Oct 03, 2018 · Paloma Corrin (Legal...