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In The Matter Of:

Delaware Department of Natural Resourcesand Environmental Control

In Re: Agency Regulations - Order Number 36January 7, 2013

Wilcox & Fetzer, Ltd.1330 King Street

Wilmington, DE 19801email: [email protected], web: www.wilfet.com

phone: 302-655-0477, fax: 302-655-0497

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In The Matter Of:Delaware Department of Natural Resources

and Environmental Control

In Re: Agency Regulations - Order Number 36

January 7, 2013

Wilcox & Fetzer, Ltd.

1330 King Street

Wilmington, DE 19801

email: [email protected], web: www.wilfet.com

phone: 302-655-0477, fax: 302-655-0497

Original File hrng010713dnrec.jl.txt

Min-U-Script® with Word Index

Delaware Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control


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1 THE STATE OF DELAWARE 2 DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES AND 3 ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL 4 5 In Re: ) ) 6 Public Hearing for Review of ) Agency Regulations - Executive ) 7 Order Number 36 ) Sussex County ) 8 ) 9 10 11 TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC HEARING 12 Sussex Central High School13 26026 Patriots Way Georgetown, Delaware 1994714 January 7, 2013 6:12 p.m.15 16 17 CONDUCTED BY: DAVID SMALL - Deputy Secretary of DNREC18 19 20 21 22 WILCOX & FETZER23 1330 King Street, Wilmington, Delaware 1980 (302) 655-047724 www.wilfet.com

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1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Well, good 2 evening, and thank you all for coming out 3 tonight. My name is David Small, I'm the Deputy 4 Secretary for the Delaware Department of Natural 5 Resources and Environmental Control, and we're 6 here tonight, really, to listen to you all. 7 If you'll indulge me for a few 8 minutes, let me give you a little bit of 9 background. If you're here, you obviously know10 a little something about the purpose for this11 evening. In June, Governor Markell signed an12 Executive Order directing all of the Cabinet13 agencies to take a look at their regulations and14 see if there was a way to reduce the burden on15 individuals in the business community here in16 the state of Delaware.17 There's been a lot of interest over18 the years in this topic. There was some19 legislative interest in this topic last -- last20 year. And so, as a result, the Governor signed21 the Executive Order. It's available online.22 I'm not sure if we have copies here with us, but23 we can certainly get you copies if you haven't24 been able to take a look.

1 So, beginning in the fall, there 2 were agencies that went through a very similar 3 process to this, and they are in the process of 4 looking at public comments and reviewing their 5 own regulations. 6 And I have to tell you, and you all 7 probably know it, DNREC certainly is a very 8 diverse agency, and we touch a lot of different 9 functions and activities. And so, we are in the10 midst of reviewing these regulations, all of11 these regulations ourselves. And we're trying12 to do this with an eye towards maintaining13 environmental standards.14 And the reason I say that is a15 number of our programs are delegated to us from16 Federal agencies; notably, EPA, as you might17 expect, in the areas of, particularly, of air,18 waste, hazardous waste, and water. And so, in19 order to -- excuse me -- maintain those20 programs, we have to maintain regulations that21 are adapted at the local level, but adopt22 Federal standards.23 And so, one of the things we have24 done, and are continuing to do, is look at not

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1 so much those standards, necessarily, but maybe 2 how we meet those standards; looking for 3 flexibility in doing that, and looking at some 4 processes. 5 And I can tell you that, you know, 6 over the years, we've engaged a number of 7 techniques to try to be more efficient in our 8 permitting process and reduce turnaround times 9 for folks that are waiting on permits. Some10 programs have really pushed this issue and done11 very well. In our air program, for example, and12 some of our water programs. You know, we are13 down to about 50 percent turnaround times and14 waiting times from where we were a number of15 years ago.16 So, but this process really is17 important to hear from you all. And we're here18 tonight, we will be in Kent County next Monday19 evening at Delaware State University. And we20 can give you the details, Martin Luther King21 Center there. And then on the 22nd of this22 month, we will be, at the same time, 6 p.m., and23 it's a Tuesday evening, we will be at the Carvel24 Building in Wilmington, in the auditorium up on

Min-U-Script® Wilcox & Fetzer Ltd.www.wilfet.com (302) 655-0477

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1 the mezzanine level. 2 And beyond that, if you -- you 3 know, this process isn't closed tonight. And if 4 you think that you forgot to say something and 5 you get home, please feel free to send us 6 comments. We're accepting written comments 7 until March 1. And at that point, then, we will 8 take everything that we've gotten from our 9 public hearings, from the written comments that10 we've received, and you can -- you can submit11 those in writing or you can submit them12 electronically online from our website.13 And that, in combination with our14 own review, we'll be developing a report, as I15 mentioned earlier, that will be submitted to the16 Governor, with recommended changes on a number17 of regulatory fronts.18 And we've been thinking about19 those. We have -- you know, we've been looking20 at our Coastal Zone regs, for example. We see21 some unevenness there. In Sussex County, in the22 wetlands and subaqueous lands permit, again, not23 so much the standards that we have, but maybe in24 creating some efficiencies, and maybe a little

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1 bit more certainty in those programs. 2 So, you know, again, we're 3 interested in hearing from you on those and any 4 of a number of other subjects. Let me just 5 mention, you know, we have a diverse agency. We 6 have our Division of Energy and Climate that 7 administers regulations on our Green Energy 8 Fund, for example. This is a program that if 9 you are a Delmarva Power customer, for example,10 you can apply for it and receive funding for11 installation of renewables.12 We have our Division of Air, which13 is responsible for monitoring our state's air14 quality and regulating any of the number of15 sources. It's been a very aggressive and16 effective program, and quite honestly, we think17 we need some help from EPA to help us with some18 of the states to the west of us, for a level19 playing field. But that certainly is a very20 large volume of regulations that touch a lot of21 different sources of air emissions.22 Our Division of Waste and Hazardous23 Substances regulates solid waste, it regulates24 hazardous waste. Things, if you're in the waste

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1 hauling business, for example, you need a permit 2 from us for transportation of that material. If 3 you handle hazardous waste or if you store it or 4 if you dispose of it, for example, you need some 5 oversight from the Department. 6 We also are responsible for 7 cleaning up legacy contamination sites. 8 Superfund sites are the worst ones. Those are 9 established by EPA, and the State, since 1990,10 has had a program to oversee the cleanup of11 sites that aren't quite as contaminated, but12 still need to be addressed in order to minimize13 impacts on public health and the environment.14 We have our Division of Water,15 which oversees the discharge of wastewater in16 any of a manner of functions. That could be a17 discharge into surface water, such as rivers,18 streams, or bays, and also, septic systems.19 Some of you may have that on your mind this20 evening, I know we've just gone through a21 process recently. As well as spray irrigation,22 there are a number of sites that are operated by23 facilities that are operated by the County, as24 well as municipalities and the private sector,

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1 private wastewater utilities, that -- that 2 operate spray irrigation facilities. Those two 3 are subject to regulation oversight and 4 permitting by the agency. 5 Wells, if any of you have 6 individual wells on your property, either for 7 residential purposes or for business purposes, 8 we oversee the design, construction, and 9 installation of those wells, along -- and I10 mentioned septic systems earlier.11 The Division of Fish and Wildlife,12 I don't know if any of you are anglers or13 hunters, or otherwise interested in habitat and14 wildlife and fisheries, but there is a body of15 regulation, as you might well expect, that comes16 with managing those natural resources. And you17 know, we have advisory councils in the agency18 that we work very closely with on development of19 those regulations that may mean size and creel20 limits for Weakfish and any of a number of other21 species, but those are regulatory actions that22 the agency takes routinely, as well.23 Our Division of Parks has24 regulations in place to oversee its park


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1 activities. So, you get a sense. Division of 2 Watershed Stewardship, for example, stormwater 3 requirements. There was legislation passed in 4 1990 overseeing stormwater, getting a better 5 handle on the impacts, potentially, to our 6 ground and surface waters from surface -- from 7 stormwater. And that program's been in place, 8 in Sussex County the program is delegated to the 9 Sussex Conservation District for stormwater10 management and oversight of plans.11 But that division is also12 responsible for oversight of construction on our13 beachfront. The Beach Act passed probably back14 in the '90s, as well, maybe a little earlier15 than that. It regulates the type and placement16 of construction along the beachfront to make17 sure that we're preserving our dune system,18 which, as we found this past fall with Hurricane19 Sandy, is a very, very important natural20 resource for us to manage.21 I think that's -- you know, that's22 just a quick, quick snapshot of all of our --23 you know, of our divisions. We have a lot of24 touch points with all of you. We're interested

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1 in hearing from all of you, either -- you know, 2 in whatever format that is most comfortable for 3 you. 4 I will tell you that this evening 5 we do have a stenographer here who is providing 6 a transcript for us, so we'll be able to capture 7 your comments verbatim. And so, what I'm going 8 to do is -- and I should also state, say, we 9 have a number of staff here this evening, that,10 you know, if we need to answer some questions,11 we can try and do that.12 But this is really, again, we're13 here to listen. You know, and if we need to14 respond we will, but we want to get your15 feedback and your comments.16 And so, with that, I will say that17 I have a list of folks who have signed in and18 indicated that they would like to speak. And19 what I will do is ask you to come down, and20 maybe I'll step over to this mike, because most21 of the folks are sitting over here. But we have22 folks sitting in the back, and what I'd ask you23 to do, if that's okay, is to come down to the24 front. We have some wireless mikes, but they

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1 don't seem to be working this evening. 2 So in fairness to everybody, so 3 that everyone can hear and that our stenographer 4 can be sure to accurately record your comments, 5 I'd ask you to come down and provide some 6 feedback, if that's okay. 7 Let me just take a quick look to 8 see if there's any other notes that I need to 9 share with you before I start with our list of10 sign-ins. I think that's enough of me talking.11 So, I'm going to go to the list12 that we received as people signed in. And I13 will apologize in advance if I don't get your14 name correct. But it looks to me like the first15 name that I have is Carol Zander. Am I right?16 Ms. Zander, if you could come down, please.17 MS. ZANDER: Good evening. I was18 hoping not to be the first, but I came this19 evening because I understood from the radio and20 from some things I had read that DNREC is21 planning to impose new septic regulations on22 anybody who's within 1000 feet of the23 waterfront. Of any waterfront, along any body24 of water. Can you tell me, is that true? And

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1 what those new regulations are going to be that 2 we're going to have to deal with. I mean is it 3 as draconian as I've heard? 4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Is that 5 your -- is that it? Can I come over to the 6 mike? 7 MS. ZANDER: Yeah, can I -- can I 8 ask questions when you get finished, if 9 necessary?10 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Sure. Let11 me -- so, we have gone through a public hearing12 process twice now on the proposed changes to our13 on-site wastewater regulations. And so, the14 public record is closed on that specific15 regulation. We're happy to hear comments on16 those this evening, as well.17 I believe, specifically to your18 question, what the regulation proposes is that19 if you have to completely replace your existing20 system, or if you're building -- putting in a21 new system and you are within 1000 feet of the22 Nanticoke River, the tidal portions, only the23 tidal portions of the Nanticoke River or Broad24 Creek, then under those conditions, when these


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1 regulations would be promulgated -- and they 2 have not yet been promulgated -- then you could 3 be required to install what we're calling an 4 enhanced nutrient removal system, okay? 5 MS. ZANDER: Uh-huh. 6 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Now, I 7 will also tell you that we have gotten a large 8 body of public comment on this. We are 9 reviewing that. We've had, you know, the10 General Assembly has expressed some opinions11 about this, as well. So, we're taking a look at12 that.13 It may be that we make some further14 changes to those regulations. And if we do,15 there will be additional opportunity for public16 comment, when that happens.17 MS. ZANDER: So they're not18 affecting us right here in this area, as of now?19 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Well, we20 have existing regulations in place now for --21 that dictate the -- you know, how septic systems22 are installed, managed, et cetera. These would23 be an update to those regulations. But they are24 not in effect, what we have proposed and what

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1 you mentioned about the 1000 feet is not in 2 effect right now. It is in effect in the tidal 3 waters around the Inland Bays. But again, it's 4 1000 feet within tidal waters of the Inland Bays 5 watershed. 6 MS. ZANDER: Okay. Does that cover 7 what I -- do you want me to -- 8 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Yes, 9 please.10 MS. ZANDER: Okay. What I've heard11 is that we would be required, if we live within12 1000 feet of a body of water, say the Indian13 River, okay, that we would be required to be14 having two inspections a year at our cost for15 our septic system. Is that one of the things16 that, you know, I'm looking forward to?17 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: So, what18 the proposed regulation would do, and I'm19 looking at Jim Cassidy. Jim is our manager in20 our Georgetown office for the on-site branch.21 What would be required, if you put in one of22 those enhanced systems, then you would need23 inspections twice a year.24 MS. ZANDER: Oh, okay.

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1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: And part 2 of the reason for that is that the 3 manufacturer's warranty, I believe, requires 4 inspections, at least for the first two years, 5 twice a year. 6 MS. ZANDER: Okay. So there's 7 nothing that's affecting the existing homeowners 8 at this particular time? 9 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Other than10 our --11 MS. ZANDER: Other than what's12 already --13 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Other than14 what's already in place.15 MS. ZANDER: Okay. Thank you.16 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Mr. Jim17 Baxter. Mr. Baxter?18 MR. BAXTER: As you probably know,19 we take the sludge, from the last pickup to now,20 and what I don't understand is that we have21 two -- we have two places on Toccopola Farms22 where you've had a -- what I call a mound23 system. It's right on the line with us, as24 farming. But yet, when we have to get the

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1 permit, or the company does that we do it for, 2 we have to get a permit from you folks to put 3 the sludge on, and we have to be 30 foot from 4 the property line. I don't hardly understand 5 why. 6 And maybe you can't give me an 7 answer, either, but to me, it looks a little bit 8 asinine to be able to put a heap of sludge, no 9 medication, no nothing, onto -- next to our10 property line. I can show it to you any time11 you want to come out there. And I don't12 understand why it is a 30-foot from the property13 line, we can only -- we have to -- we can only14 start that far away to put the sludge on. It's15 been treated and okayed, but none of those mound16 systems have ever been treated, as far as I17 know. Okay?18 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you.19 The next name I have is Dave -- Jaeger? Is that20 right?21 MR. JACOBSON: Jacobs. I'm sorry.22 Do we have another Dave Jacobs?23 MR. JAEGER: It's Jaeger.24 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: What's


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1 your last name? 2 MR. JAEGER: Jaeger. J-a-e-g-e-r, 3 that's correct. I'll make this short. My name 4 is David Jaeger, and I live in Selbyville. 5 While I support the Governor's desire to 6 simplify DNREC's regulations, I am concerned 7 that this might lead to a weakening of controls 8 on the amount of pollution on our air, land, and 9 water, particularly around our Inland Bays.10 These bays are the jewel of Sussex County, and11 indeed, the whole state, but they are repeatedly12 threatened by overdevelopment.13 And one of the main protectors of14 the Inland Bays watershed is DNREC. They are15 charged with sustaining this prize for future16 generations, at the same time allowing for17 reasonable development. That's a tough job, and18 I don't envy them this responsibility, but it's19 one that we all must support and respect.20 I am particularly concerned about21 Sussex County, now that the economy is picking22 up again and the building boom is likely to23 resume to accommodate the baby boomers looking24 to retire to lower slower Delaware. But the

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1 very qualities that attract folks are at risk 2 from overdevelopment and pollution, such as 3 septic tanks and ill-conceived wastewater 4 systems. We need scientific and fact-based 5 controls that only DNREC can provide to preserve 6 this God-given gift of nature for future 7 generations. Thank you. 8 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you, 9 Mr. Jaeger. Next I have Floyd Morton.10 MR. MORTON: Thank you for giving11 me this time to speak. You had mentioned there12 was actually going to be changes in regulations13 for anglers, and that's going to be through, I14 believe, the Delaware Bayshore Initiative15 program?16 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Well, I17 think I was talking about regulations maybe in18 size and creel limits as examples of the type of19 diverse regulatory oversight that we're charged20 with.21 MR. MORTON: Okay. And --22 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I wasn't23 here to propose anything specific.24 MR. MORTON: I understand. But do

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1 you have any specific that you're going to be 2 changing? 3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I can tell 4 you this: There are, it seems to me, always 5 changes that are pending in the world of 6 fisheries management. Mostly because we are 7 responsible for maintaining compliance with 8 somewhere around 17 fishery management plans 9 that are coastwide.10 As you well know, fish move through11 waters. They don't just stay stationary. So we12 have to work with other states to manage those,13 and there are a number of agency organizations,14 multistate organizations that work15 collaboratively most of the times to try to16 manage those stocks.17 So there is the chance that over18 the course of the coming year, that there will19 be some type of regulatory change proposed in20 order to maintain compliance with those, but I21 can't sit here and cite exactly what those are.22 MR. MORTON: I mean isn't this a23 public comment, where we can get our comments to24 how we feel about something?

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1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Sure. 2 MR. MORTON: That's what I'm 3 saying, is this is open for something like that, 4 correct? 5 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Sure. 6 MR. MORTON: But you don't have any 7 kind of regulations or anything like that that 8 we can say, hey, we're for this, or you know, 9 what -- it's almost like writing a blank check.10 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Right. So11 you know, the more specific that your comments12 can be -- and I'll say this to everyone -- about13 individual regulations, if there's a particular14 species, or -- you know, it can be open, but the15 things that will be most helpful to us are16 comments that are as specific as you can be.17 That's not to say that we're not18 here to listen to whatever you have to say, but19 you know, I think those things will be20 particularly constructive. So with that, would21 you go ahead, please.22 MR. MORTON: I saw this morning,23 and the Delaware Bayshore Initiative was24 actually mentioned during this. Is there


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1 something that's actually going on with the 2 Delaware Bayshore Initiative that pertains to 3 this meeting tonight? 4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: The 5 Delaware Bayshore Initiative is not a regulatory 6 initiative. It is, really, the notion behind 7 that, very quickly, is to really bring in some 8 of, you know, non-regulatory programs working 9 more collaboratively together to conserve10 habitat in the bayshore, protect lands, keep,11 you know, working lands working and in private12 hands.13 MR. MORTON: Uh-huh.14 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: And you15 know, restore habitat where possible, and create16 low impact recreational and economic development17 opportunities through -- through tourism. As18 you know, there are, you know, a lot of that19 kind of activity going on along the bayshore,20 and we would like to enhance those efforts.21 MR. MORTON: Okay. As of right22 now, do you have anything pending that pertains23 to the Delaware Bayshore Initiative that you24 could speak about tonight?

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1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Not in a 2 regulatory context, no. 3 MR. MORTON: Okay. 4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: This 5 meeting is about regulations. The bayshore is 6 not a regulatory initiative. 7 MR. MORTON: That's all I've got. 8 Thank you. 9 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you.10 I believe it's Sally Ford?11 MS. FORD: I'm a surveyor, and I --12 my interaction with DNREC is basically doing13 stormwater management. And my one comment in14 general is that I believed these hearings were15 to discuss regulations that were in effect three16 years ago. And yet, there were supposed to be17 new regulations in effect as of January 1.18 So, my comment is, why am I19 addressing old regulations, when there's20 supposed to be new ones?21 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: The focus22 of the Executive Order was on regulations that23 had not been amended or opened, if you will, for24 a three-year period or more.

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1 MS. FORD: Okay. 2 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: And the 3 idea behind that being that there may be some 4 regulations that hadn't gotten attention within 5 the past three years, that needed to be updated. 6 So, that's the focus. But it's not 7 the exclusive intent of this process to 8 remain -- you know, to address only those 9 regulations. So, you know, we're looking at it10 as an opportunity to go beyond that, if need be.11 But I think the body of our work and review will12 focus on those older regulations.13 MS. FORD: Can I comment on the new14 ones?15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Please, go16 ahead.17 MS. FORD: Okay. My first comment,18 though, concerns -- it's relative to the old and19 to the new.20 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Okay.21 MS. FORD: And that's the notice of22 intent permit that people get when they're doing23 construction. And I know it comes down from24 EPA, and my feedback has always been, well, EPA

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1 makes us keep it active until the last bit of 2 construction is done. And I have several 3 projects that it affects greatly, one being a 4 commercial property where all utilities are in, 5 all surfaces are paved, site is fully graded, 6 all buildings are up except for one last 7 building, a 3000 square foot building. 8 I have as-builts and approvals for 9 everything that's been done. And yet, I have to10 keep the NOI open, and DNREC won't issue me a11 final because they say the NOI has to stay open.12 Well, if this building doesn't get built for ten13 years, there's a fee involved, there's our fee14 for keeping us current with the -- with15 everything.16 And I believe it should be allowed17 to terminate when the site is fully stabilized,18 all approvals for utilities, site improvements,19 are complete. And if -- when they decide to20 build the last building, you have to get a21 general permit just for that 3000 square foot22 improvement, that should be acceptable. Because23 the stormwater already took into consideration24 that building being there.


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1 I have -- another example would be 2 your subdivision drawings, where you have a 3 subdivision, and a lot remains vacant for 40 4 years, because somebody in their 20s bought it 5 hoping to build on it when they retired. You're 6 going to keep the developer liable with that NOI 7 for 40 years until that last house gets built? 8 That seems erroneous, or that doesn't seem fair. 9 And again, the site and the10 stormwater management was -- that building was11 taken into consideration, that there would be a12 house on that lot eventually. To keep the NOI13 open and the stormwater permit open for that14 amount of time -- there should be a way to close15 a permit, reopen it if you need to, with the16 notion that we're only building what's already17 been approved, and it's less than the 500018 square foot standard disturbance, where you can19 qualify for the general permit.20 Along the same line, another little21 thing that really bothers me, in 2006 DNREC22 stated everybody was going to have to pay for23 the NOI annually, which is $195. Not a big bill24 for the big developers, but for your littler

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1 jobs, it can get to be a big bill. 2 And in the new regulations, they've 3 inserted that letter into the technical 4 documents, which I believe makes it now a 5 regulation, that there will be that $195 every 6 year. But it can't close out. There's no way 7 of closing out the NOI until that last lot is 8 built upon. 9 I just took for an example the NOIs10 that were still open, and I only went back to11 2005. And I know NOIs go back to 2001. And12 going back to just 2005, with the amount that13 are still open, you would be collecting $195,00014 a year, just annually, just to keep everybody's15 NOIs current.16 So, I take insult to it, that it's17 a little bit more of a revenue generator than18 really do you need to charge that every year,19 when we can't physically close it out because20 you won't let us close it out.21 A couple things in the new22 regulations -- and I'll probably do more in23 writing -- but they're treating wooded lots24 different than a cleared lot. And I feel it's

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1 unfair for somebody who wants to preserve trees, 2 and therefore, hasn't cleared their lot, to be 3 penalized now, when they go for their stormwater 4 management or they go for their general permit, 5 to have to go an additional step, versus the 6 person who cleared their lot five years ago, and 7 they can just get the general permit without 8 question. 9 The other -- the other item, too,10 is the general permit, they were going to allow11 based on a percentage of impervious on the lot,12 and that discriminates against your smaller13 lots, because you'll reach that percentage of14 impervious a lot quicker than you will on a15 one-acre lot. Therefore, you're penalizing the16 smaller lots, versus the larger lots, as far as17 the amount of work that they're going to have to18 hire my company to do.19 And I also feel, in general, that20 most of what was approved in revisions back in21 2005 or 2004, when they were done previously,22 are just getting built today. A lot of my23 projects are under those regulations and are24 just getting built, so you don't even know how

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1 they work, and they're changing the regulations. 2 So, do you have any comment? 3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I don't. 4 Thank you. I appreciate your comments. 5 MS. FORD: Okay. 6 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Oh, boy. 7 Don -- hmm. Tom? 8 MR. FORD: I think I'm after Sally. 9 Tom Ford. I have a very specific item. Number10 one, Dave, I'd like to take issue, the whole11 point of this meeting is to simplify permitting12 and cost and expediate it, and during your13 introduction, you basically said DNREC is doing14 a great job and has simplified and expediated15 permitting. And I've been in the field for 3016 years, and I'm telling you, it's getting more17 complicated every day, and it takes longer, and18 costs more.19 And but specifically, I -- our20 company just got a dock rebuild and extension21 permit. It took over a year to get it. It took22 a lot of back and forth with DNREC.23 I don't have a problem with that24 process. What I do have a problem with is at


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1 the end of the process, it's assigned personally 2 to the applicant. And unfortunately, this 3 applicant died three weeks after the permit was 4 approved and recorded, signed by Collin O'Mara, 5 the whole deal. 6 So, the estate now has to go back 7 to DNREC. And I'm not saying DNREC's going to 8 withhold that approval, but I find it -- why are 9 we allowing a 20-year lease out on our10 subaqueous lands for a pier personally? It11 should go with the land.12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's13 right.14 MR. FORD: And DelDOT's doing that15 to entrance permits, and DNREC is doing that.16 And I find the banking community and development17 community can't live with those unknowns. At18 any point, say a movie theater sells the movie19 theater, that DelDOT permit and any DNREC septic20 permit, or whatever, should flow with the land.21 Not be assigned personally. Because it marks22 the land -- and the banking community is not23 aware of this, and the real estate community's24 not aware of this. And it's a big major issue.

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1 And it needs to be fixed and 2 addressed, and you need to determine why you 3 need to do that. Because you have the power to 4 revoke that permit, from anybody who uses it. 5 No matter who's the assigneds, who's the heirs, 6 or who the rental unit of users, if they violate 7 any issue of that permit, DNREC has that in 8 there, too. 9 So why does that have to be10 assigned personally? You know, that property's11 going to change hands in 20 years. What12 property doesn't? Very few. The bulk of the13 properties exchange.14 That needs to be fixed, and it15 needs to be fixed throughout the State. And so,16 I just bring that up, because it's a very17 specific, and it's a very annoying bureaucratic18 process that doesn't help anybody. It just gets19 in the way. And why that estate has to come20 back to you and ask for you to do that permit is21 ridiculous.22 I think what my -- Sally Ford23 brought out about the NOI is the problem you24 have is in a development, not all lots are built

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1 on. You're going to build the roads, you're 2 going to put the stormwater in, you're going to 3 get them approved, you're going to do the 4 as-builts. 5 You spend hundreds of thousands of 6 dollars on some larger developments, and the 7 developer eventually is going to sell out to the 8 HOA. And the HOA isn't going to take over when 9 there's 100 percent build-out. So the HOAs,10 ordinary citizens who don't understand this11 process, are going to get stuck paying that NOI.12 They're not going to understand what they have13 to do. And it's -- it's ridiculous to go14 beyond.15 The land has all been developed,16 and we're only going to go for one house at a17 time. I mean get a general permit, get a18 sediment erosion control, stormwater has already19 been fixed, and let people go. Don't hold on to20 them for 20 years. Because 20 years from now21 you might have a bunch of comments from those22 HOAs.23 The general person in this24 community doesn't understand that, and how these

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1 regulations affect them. And these are big, 2 major issues that our representatives are going 3 to have to deal with, and you're going to have 4 to deal with some day. And I don't see the 5 benefit. Is it all about health, safety, 6 welfare of the general public? How does holding 7 onto the NOI help them? How does making a 8 permit personal help the health, safety, welfare 9 of the public?10 These are specific issues, and I11 know there's many others, but that's all I have12 to say to you tonight.13 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,14 Mr. Ford. Next I have Ron Gray.15 REPRESENTATIVE GRAY: Good evening.16 I'm the new -- tomorrow I will be sworn in as a17 Representative here for the State of Delaware.18 I'm very, very proud to be doing that, and I'll19 be representing all of the citizens in my20 district, and much of that is in the natural21 resource area.22 We have the Inland Bays, the little23 Assawoman Bay, my area, and up to Indian River24 Bay as well, to the inlet. I think because the


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1 bridge washed out, I only -- I don't have to 2 worry about that on the north side, that's 3 another representative's side than me, so I want 4 to make sure that doesn't happen. 5 Running for office, regulation has 6 always been a bad word for me, really. And it's 7 what I ran on, the platform. The point I really 8 want to make is, I just feel like DNREC needs to 9 be more responsive in looking at it from the10 perspective of the end user. Not only what Tom11 and Sally were talking about from the technical12 person, but regulations in general.13 I would like to see them being more14 of the citizens and the technical folks that are15 putting together the plans, to let them try to16 work with you closely, instead of requiring them17 to do things, let them partner with you to come18 up with even better ways to improve the19 environment and make it a better place.20 And I feel that the regulations21 typically become onerous, and I think that they22 have been put in place because a few folks in23 our community took advantage of it, or polluted,24 and we go -- the pendulum has swung, so that the

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1 regulations have become very onerous in many 2 cases. 3 And I would like to see more of a 4 partnership, and not "regulation" should be a 5 bad word. We should all share with that, that 6 we're trying to protect the environment for the 7 jewel we have in our Inland Bays, and to 8 maintain that. 9 So, you're in a very difficult10 position. On the new -- my first reaction when11 I heard that we were looking at regs that were12 three years old was, well, what about the ones13 that have gone into place in the last three14 years? But you have to start somewhere. So, I15 salute Governor Markell for taking an effort to16 look at the regulations, even though he's17 starting it at the three-year point.18 But going forward, I feel like we19 should -- we should try to work together, and20 let -- and build a volunteer or support base21 that all our natural resources, we want to22 maintain those, and make them a better place,23 and have volunteer support, and the community in24 general want to work with DNREC, and not have it

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1 as being told to do things, as much. 2 So, that, in a nutshell, is really 3 what I wanted to say. So, I totally respect 4 you, Dave. I think you're in a tough position, 5 because most of the times, people are looking at 6 you as the bad guy, or DNREC as the bad guy. 7 And I think that needs to change. Thank you for 8 letting me speak for a moment, and I look 9 forward to working with you over the next couple10 years.11 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you12 for your comments, Representative.13 REPRESENTATIVE GRAY: Still14 Representative Elect.15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Close16 enough for me. Next I have Bob and Renee17 Coleman. Is that right?18 MR. COLEMAN: I'm Bob Coleman.19 I'll be speaking for both of us, I guess. I've20 been a property owner for close to 30 years now,21 in various parts of Sussex County. And I guess22 I have to say that in general, I believe that23 the people in this state and county are very24 concerned about water and air quality, and

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1 they're very anxious to have those sort of 2 things improved. 3 And 20, 25 years ago, I saw a lot 4 of very significant improvements that were 5 beneficial. They made good sense. But I do 6 have to also say, over the last decade or so, it 7 seems as though the regulations we're seeing 8 come through are almost regulations for the sake 9 of making a regulation, and they're not really10 making any significant improvement in the11 environment. All they're doing is exerting more12 and more control over infinitesimal limits, in13 some cases, and a desire to control every14 specific detail, down to the most minute thing.15 If the Governor's really serious16 about making these things work more smoothly and17 having less negative impact, I think you need to18 take a look at that, not only on existing19 regulations, but also on these new ones that are20 being discussed.21 Now, as far as the new septic22 regulations, I do have some comments on that,23 also. I understand that was a separate issue,24 but it really ties into this, I think, as far as


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1 the impact of regulations on the area. 2 These new regulations, because of 3 their tight controls, especially on nitrogens, I 4 think, are going to impose a severe financial 5 hardship to anyone holding a present property 6 that may need repairs, or new property about to 7 be built. And in a time when the state and 8 county are in such desperate need of things to 9 help growth and help people survive, it just10 seems totally wrong to be clamping down on11 something, unless there's a true benefit to be12 had.13 Now, aside from the need for14 putting in new systems, perhaps if you have to15 replace them, there's, as someone else mentioned16 earlier, this need for inspection costs, if you17 happen to be unfortunate enough to need one of18 these systems. And not just the inspection19 costs, but along with it goes a mandate that20 regardless of individual property rights, an21 inspector will have free access to your property22 any time he wants, and you cannot deny access.23 Now to me, that is a severe overreach of the24 government.

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1 And someone else also pointed out, 2 the personal attachment of these permits. To 3 me, that just makes absolutely no sense at all. 4 You're regulating runoff water from a piece of 5 land. Why does it get tied to the individual? 6 That is nothing but a burdensome aspect to 7 anybody, whether they're selling, passing it on 8 to heirs, or whatever. It's a real burden. 9 And I also, as a professional10 engineer, I have to raise a lot of questions11 about some of these new regulations in terms of12 their specific limits and how they're to be13 implemented. For example, many of these water14 control limits that are going on right now are a15 result, I understand, of follow-on from the EPA.16 But once in a while the State needs to stand up17 and get a backbone and say, hey, EPA, this18 doesn't make any sense.19 We're now looking at nitrogen level20 limits for runoff water that are half the21 allowable limits of drinking water. Does that22 make any sense to anybody? I mean we're trying23 to put water runoff into areas that's more pure24 than the drinking water that a lot of people

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1 drink. 2 You know, I don't know if this 3 falls under that area that the Governor was 4 talking about in reviewing regulations, as far 5 as burdens on business, but somebody needs to 6 step back and take a look and say, is there any 7 practical sense to some of these regulations. 8 We're asking for huge expenses of 9 money here for infinitesimal amounts of10 difference, in the nitrogen content, just to use11 one example. And it's not even clear right now12 whether those limits are achievable.13 So, with that, enough said. I hope14 somebody puts some common sense into this.15 Thank you.16 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,17 Mr. Coleman. Let me just respond to one point18 that you raised on the language that's in the19 septic regulations, and that is having to do20 with property access. We simply replicated21 language that's preexisting in State law. And22 our interpretation of that, for as long as I've23 been around, which is considerable, is that we24 do not come onto a property for a septic

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1 inspection without first contacting the owner 2 and seeking permission. 3 If, in the event we believe there 4 is a public health threat that demands our 5 immediate action, we can move more swiftly. But 6 I would hope that people recognize that we've 7 exercised that authority with a great deal of 8 respect over the years, and we plan to continue 9 to do that. But thank you for your comments.10 Next I have Bill Moyer.11 MR. MOYER: Good evening. My name12 is Bill Moyer. I am president of the Inland13 Bays Foundation. And let me say, before I start14 my formal remarks, that the Inland Bays15 Foundation has no objection to the16 simplification, or making regulations more user17 friendly. We think that there are ways that18 that can be done without removing the protection19 of the environment that they were intended for.20 That said, let me read in my formal21 comments. As I said, I am president of the22 Inland Bays Foundation, which is dedicated to23 improving the environmental condition of our24 polluted Inland Bays and their surrounding


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1 watershed. 2 Decades of effort by DNREC to 3 restore the bays to their once swimmable and 4 fishable state have met with some success, but 5 real progress has been slowed by resistance from 6 local organizations and improper land use 7 decisions made by Sussex County. 8 In the mid 1990s, I was a member of 9 the then-Governor's Task Force on Inland Bays,10 and I've served as an expert witness before the11 Sussex County Planning and Zoning Commission and12 Sussex County Council for Development, that was13 not in compliance with Sussex County's land use14 plan.15 I was born and raised in Sussex16 County. Although the Inland Bays Foundation17 agrees with the intent of Executive Order 36, we18 are concerned with some of the language that it19 contains. Specifically, the careful read of the20 Order would lead one to believe that21 environmental regulations are a deterrent to a22 viable economy and to economic growth. This is23 not true.24 Study after study has shown that

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1 protecting our environment creates jobs, and in 2 the case of Sussex County, ensures that people 3 will continue to live, vacation, and recreate 4 here. 5 I have four documents that I would 6 like to introduce into the record of this 7 hearing. The first is a report by the 8 Chesapeake Bay Foundation, titled "Debunking The 9 'Job Killer' Myth: How Pollution Limits10 Encourage Jobs in the Chesapeake Bay Region."The11 report shows that there had been a 43 percent12 increase in the number of environmental industry13 jobs in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia14 over the last three decades.15 In a ground-breaking article in The16 Scientific American more than 20 years ago, a17 noted Harvard University Business School18 economist concluded that, quote, "Strict19 environmental regulations do not inevitably20 hinder competitive advantages against viable.21 Indeed, they all enhance it."22 The report concludes, quote,23 "Clean water also will mean more fish, crabs,24 and oysters, which translate to more work and

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1 thus, fishermen, processors, packers, 2 restaurateurs and people in the tourism-related 3 industries. If history is any guide, 4 environmental regulations will once again 5 nourish God's creation." 6 My second document is a report 7 published on November 8, 2012, by the Public 8 News Service. It also concludes, "Here in this 9 report, document after document, research after10 research finding, show that especially in times11 when the economy is slowing down, environmental12 protection stimulates that economy and creates13 jobs."14 There are those groups in Sussex15 County that would have us believe that positive16 growth means growth without unnecessary17 government interference, and without unnecessary18 environmental regulations. If they had their19 way, development would occur anywhere, with20 little oversight. As I have stated, if this21 occurs in Sussex County, this philosophy will22 lead to uncontrolled, unsupportable growth, and23 a deterioration of the quality of life in Sussex24 County.

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1 This has happened and continues to 2 happen around the country, with the ultimate 3 decline in property values and economic 4 hardships. It's time that we start learning 5 from our past mistakes. 6 Whereas, quote, "Number 7 of 7 Executive Order 36 indicates a misunderstanding 8 of the economics of environmental protection, in 9 that it states it is the intent of this Order10 to," quote, "reduce impediments to economic11 growth," close quote, "caused by regulations12 that may be reduced or streamlined."13 The Executive Order calls for,14 quote, "meaningful public input into the15 regulatory reform process." I would encourage16 DNREC to give little consideration to any17 comments received at these public hearings that18 do not contain specific analyses of the adverse19 economic impact of the regulation that anyone or20 any group is requesting to be changed or21 limited.22 It would be irresponsible for DNREC23 to make any changes without sufficient data on24 which to base its decision. Simply stating that


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1 the regulation is bad or is not needed is 2 inadequate. 3 For example, I'm introducing a 4 document showing suggested changes by a group 5 advocating positive growth in Sussex County. It 6 requests the elimination of the nitrogen removal 7 standard for small septic systems, removal of 8 the 30-day property transfer requirement from 9 all septic permits, and the permit transfer10 requirement for dock permits. There is11 absolutely no supporting documentation on how12 these changes are adversely affecting the13 economy or are hindering growth.14 Also, why would such a request be15 made when water quality data clearly show that16 the Inland Bays are overloaded with nitrogen,17 leading to algae blooms and subsequent fish18 kills. The nitrogen discharged into the19 groundwater eventually finds its ways into the20 bays, as studies by the Delaware Geological21 Survey have shown.22 These pro-growth organizations have23 stated that the Inland Bays are, quote,24 "cleaning themselves up," close quote, and that

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1 growth with fewer restrictions will lead to a 2 better quality of life for Sussex County 3 residents and visitors. 4 Yet no facts or data has ever been 5 presented by these groups to substantiate the 6 supposed statement of fact. These statements 7 are made for self-serving interests of those 8 that benefit financially from unrestricted and 9 irresponsible growth.10 I am sure that you will hear11 similar claims tonight and at the other12 scheduled hearings in Kent and New Castle13 County. Again, I implore DNREC to consider only14 those changes that can show a conclusive benefit15 to the environment and to the economy of each16 county and the state of Delaware. This is17 clearly the intent of Executive Order 36.18 Finally, I would ask that DNREC19 reinstate the collection of subaqueous lands20 fees for structures constructed on public21 subaqueous lands that are generating revenue.22 This was generated by House Bill 360 of the23 General Assembly and adopted by DNREC on June24 30, 1991. Failure to collect these fees is

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1 allowing private parties to build structures on 2 State land, charge for the use of the 3 structures, and pay no fee to the State for the 4 use of State land. 5 This would be similar to allowing 6 someone to build a restaurant or concession in a 7 State park and not charge a fee. Failure to 8 collect these fees for many years has resulted 9 in the loss of millions of dollars in revenue10 that could be used to offset the cost for11 environmental protection in Delaware.12 I am attaching a copy of this13 document to my testimony. Thank you for the14 opportunity to comment.15 THE DEPUTY SECRETARY: Thank you,16 Mr. Moyer. Next I have Scott Evans.17 MR. EVANS: Tonight what I'm coming18 here for is kind of like a third go around. I'm19 here for the soil evaluation for private20 individual lots and developments. There is a21 five-year on there; after five years you have to22 go back and get your lots reevaluated for your23 soil samples.24 I'm going through that now. We

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1 already had it done, which I bought a 2 development, and in the meantime, while I bought 3 it, probably after a year, probably when I had 4 four years left, that at the end of that time, 5 right now, we're having to go back and get all 6 the lots done over again. So we're paying 7 double to get lots done, because of the five 8 years. 9 In talking with -- as a matter of10 fact, Joe Duke, and some of the others, you11 know, he was the one that said he doesn't agree12 with it. Soil doesn't change if anything13 doesn't move. If you have 50 years, that's one14 thing. But five years.15 And so, this is about my third go16 around. The first time, Representative Hocker17 spoke to you a while back and said something to18 you about seeing if something could be done. In19 the meantime, I spoke again in Dover during one20 of these hearings that you had and I haven't21 heard anything.22 Now, if it's been changed, I23 haven't heard. So that's why I'm here tonight,24 to voice my opinion again. Because this is not


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1 right. I mean five years. Look, I'm 63 years 2 old. Five years don't take long to roll around. 3 It's getting less all the time as I get older. 4 So you know, it needs to be -- 5 something needs to be done, because now we're 6 paying -- I just got one today for you guys 7 right in the mail, that we just had done on 8 another lot. So, I mean we're paying double, 9 and that's not right. I mean nothing changes.10 It doesn't go.11 I think it needs to be extended out12 a little bit longer than -- than five years,13 because it used to be there wasn't no time. Now14 you got five years. Five years isn't very long.15 I mean it rolls around in a hurry.16 I know there's probably -- there's17 a time there -- I guess you can go back, I may18 be wrong -- I think before the five years is up,19 and you can get reevaluated, but I didn't -- I20 wasn't aware of that fact.21 I'm a builder, contractor/owner.22 But places I've done, I've never ran into this23 before. I had 38 lots. Now we're down, because24 the economy is down. I mean I got 30 some lots.

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1 You take that times 4 or $500, after you've 2 already spent it, you're doubling your money. 3 So I think something needs to be 4 reconsidered in the time limit, to extend it, or 5 at least take a little consideration. Because 6 now we're just paying double for what we paid, 7 because now we're starting to sell a few lots 8 and we're having to pay this out. 9 So, I just wish you could take into10 consideration of extending that, making it11 longer, or whether something -- what can be12 done, or does legislation have to be placed in,13 if it has to change.14 I met with Senator Hocker, but you15 know, can they do something? Representative16 Gray is here. I don't know what can be done,17 whether it be legislative, or extend it, or18 whatever. But it's not fair, especially someone19 to -- you know, now-a-days young folks are20 trying to get something, some reason somebody21 gives them something, it's been done, all of a22 sudden now they got to pull another $400 out, 5,23 whatever it is, to get something done.24 So I don't know if there anything

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1 has been done, or has it been talked about or 2 what. 3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: The issue 4 that you raise is, I think you previously 5 mentioned that you had made some comments on the 6 record for the proposal for the on-site 7 wastewater regulations. Is that what I 8 understood you to say? 9 MR. EVANS: Correct. In other10 words, we've got to go back, and you have to11 start right from the beginning again.12 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Right.13 MR. EVANS: Because it's already14 been done -- I mean it's already done. The soil15 samples is done. It's all -- you know, it's16 still there. So now we got to do the same exact17 thing they done five years ago.18 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Right.19 So, nothing has changed as of yet. Those20 regulations are still under review, we're21 reviewing public comment, including your comment22 about the extension of that. So, I can't23 pre-judge the outcome of that, but we have24 received those comments, and they're under

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1 consideration at this point. 2 MR. EVANS: Thank you. 3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: But I will 4 say two points, I guess. One is I don't believe 5 that legislation is required, necessarily. I 6 think this is a regulatory issue. And I would 7 also say I think it is true, and you probably 8 know more than I, that if you at any point 9 during that five-year period were to record10 those lots, then that -- you know, you've taken11 care of it at that point. You don't need to go12 back and get another soil test. I believe13 that's correct. But you may have to --14 MR. EVANS: You are correct about15 that. But here's my problem. The problem is16 that that house, or whatever, once you get that17 recorded, you have to take and put down there18 exactly what the house is going to be, exactly19 where the sewer system is going to be placed.20 Now, should you get the home and21 somebody wants their lot -- the house on the22 other side of the lot -- which they can do23 that -- you've already told them where they're24 going to put the house. They have no say-so


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1 where it may be. They may want to place it 2 somewheres else other than where you want, and 3 it's still eligible to be placed on that piece 4 of property. 5 But if you go back and think, a 6 little common sense says you still have the same 7 situation. You haven't built on it, you haven't 8 done anything. You still have the same 9 situation, whether it's been five years or ten10 years, and you don't go back. You still have11 the same situation. That soil hasn't changed.12 Nothing has changed. The only thing is this13 play on words to do something to have it14 recorded. Because it says this is where it's15 going.16 So, you know, it's -- it hasn't17 changed. Nothing has changed, I mean as far as18 that goes. It's just all you done is put it on19 a piece of paper to make it look good. So --20 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Okay.21 MR. EVANS: Thank you.22 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you.23 Next I have Larry Mayo.24 MR. MAYO: Thank you for having

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1 this meeting, and I would like to commend the 2 Governor for the one thing that I think he's 3 done right, which is looking to simplify some 4 regulations. 5 Let me talk to you a little bit 6 about my experience with regulations. And not 7 all of them are DNREC's, but some of them are. 8 I inherited three lots with two mobile homes on 9 them. Those mobile homes were put on in the10 '60s and '70s. Okay? That is my net worth. I11 make approximately $30,000 a year, and that's12 pretty much what it takes for me to live. So I13 decided since this was my net worth, and this14 was going to be my retirement plan, that I would15 take those two mobile homes, and since I'm a16 contractor, build houses and sell the houses,17 so -- to get myself a retirement fund.18 Well, I inherited them in 2006. At19 that time, that made my net worth about20 $300,000. The lots. Thanks to banking21 regulations, the only thing I could borrow money22 to do was build a house. Thanks to DNREC23 regulations, I couldn't build a house unless I24 put new septic systems in both lots.

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1 Well, the amount of money I could 2 borrow on my limited income would not allow for 3 that. So I converted one of them into a class C 4 in order to sell it for enough to be able to fix 5 up the other one. 6 Well, thanks to the Government 7 intrusion in the housing market, that HAS now 8 been on the market for three years, and is now 9 worth what I owe. So, even if it sells, I'll10 just be one lot short of what I started. This11 is how regulations hurt regular people.12 Now, as far as EPA regulations,13 I've been studying this document for the last14 three years. I've taken two college courses on15 it. There is no place in this document, which16 is the Constitution of the United States, that17 gives the Federal government the authority to18 regulate my land or your land.19 So, the EPA does not have to be20 listened to by the State. Okay? Get them to21 show you where in the Constitution they have the22 authority to tell you what water can run off23 your land. It's not in there. Believe me.24 I'll read it over and over and over again.

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1 To our State legislators that are 2 out here, I'd like to see you guys grow a large 3 set of cajones and start taking advantage of the 4 Tenth Amendment to the Constitution. Because 5 you guys should have more power over me than 6 President Obama and the Congress and the Senate. 7 And certainly more than the United Nations and 8 their agenda 21. 9 I thank you for your public10 service. I hope you take this to heart. Most11 of the regulations implemented over the last ten12 years have done a lot to hurt the small guy.13 You can't burn leaves, the trash company won't14 take them. I don't know what you're supposed to15 do with them. I just let them lay on my land16 and rot.17 Thank you.18 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,19 Mr. Mayo. Next I have Rich Collins.20 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Dave. I21 thank the Department for being here tonight, and22 I'm sure you understand no comments are23 personal, certainly not from me. I'm trying to24 get to the heart of this Executive Order 36, the


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1 whole point of it. 2 Back in 2008, we had something 3 happen in the economy. I think most of us know 4 about it. It wasn't good. I think DNREC knows 5 about it, because I know your budget has shrunk, 6 and I believe you lost some employees due to 7 some of that, correct? 8 All right. So, people in -- out in 9 constituent land are in the same position. My10 understanding is that underemployment, if you11 have unemployment and underemployment, we're12 somewhere -- these are different numbers, but13 maybe 18, 19 percent. Very, very high rate of14 unemployment for young people, and some forecast15 that it could be getting much worse.16 I have an economic report here,17 it's actually a subscription I pay for, talks18 about the demographic hurricane coming towards19 us, with folks aging, and the incredible burden20 we're going to face paying for Social Security21 and Medicare.22 In short, there is a Federal23 government sponsored study that I've found, and24 you can find any number of them, that basically

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1 indicates we're probably looking at, if we don't 2 do exactly the right things, a declining 3 standard of living. For a long time now. 4 And so, I'm hoping that the whole 5 concept of Executive Order 36 is to realize that 6 Delaware has to compete with other states and 7 other countries. Otherwise, we're going to have 8 a decline. And as I think has been demonstrated 9 here on more than one occasion tonight, there10 are certain things that are costing people more11 money, in my opinion, than probably needs to be12 spent.13 I wanted to address the EPA real14 quickly, before I forget. I know that you are15 under tremendous pressure from the EPA. But I16 go to about as many DNREC meetings as anybody17 who's not a professional, you know, doing18 business with you on a daily basis. I don't19 really hear much transparency in terms of what20 you really do have to deal with.21 Now, I know Attorney General22 Cuccinelli in Virginia, the EPA told Virginia23 that they had to pay -- I think it was billions24 of dollars, to prevent stormwater runoff. He

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1 sued. He, through the Virginia Department of 2 Transportation and Fairfax County, I believe. 3 And the Supreme Court of the United States just 4 ruled that they were right, and that EPA had no 5 authority to regulate water flow through the 6 Clean Water Act, water runoff. 7 And so, I believe that's going to 8 go to the heart of Delaware's pending stormwater 9 regulations. I -- I sincerely hope -- I'm10 frustrated in that when I go to a meeting that's11 a joint meeting with EPA and DNREC, and Delaware12 citizens, that I feel some of your employees13 feel like they're more beholden to the EPA than14 they are to their citizens that pay their15 salaries. Now I hope I'm wrong on that, but16 that's the impression I get sometimes. And I17 just really -- I hope they're on our side first.18 Also, let me make one comment about19 the thing about being on property without20 warrants. I'm the one that publicized that, as21 much as anyone. I did do my best, every time I22 said it, I think, to make it clear that it is23 State law. What I see is different this time is24 that in this new septic regulation, it's obvious

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1 the Department is very anxious to force people 2 to have a type of system that performs so poorly 3 that it has to be inspected twice a year. 4 And I think it's obvious, based on 5 that and other things, that they expect a lot of 6 breakdowns. And I believe it's obvious that 7 they're expecting to have to take action more 8 than in the past. 9 And I would also say that I get10 great discomfort reading those new septic11 regulations. And in fact, I put together a12 little paragraph describing what someone selling13 our home would have to explain to their buyer,14 you know, in the form of disclosure. It almost15 looks like some aspects of those regulations are16 designed to prevent -- or discourage freedom17 using their rural properties.18 And so, it's not so much the words19 which, as you point out, are identical to what's20 in State law. It's why are they being, for the21 first time, put into regulation, in conjunction22 with the whole big picture look of how these23 regulations look?24 Now, I think probably more


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1 important than the particulars of a lot of 2 regulations is the process. You know, 3 businesses need three things. They need to know 4 what the rules are, they need to know roughly 5 how long it's going to take to get through the 6 process, and they have to know that if they 7 actually follow the rules, that at the end of 8 the process they probably will get the prize. 9 We've had some testimony here from10 folks tonight making it clear that they don't11 feel that the process is clear and defined.12 Furthermore, there is no doubt in my mind that13 DNREC is making some fundamental mistakes in14 application of State law.15 The main one, let's talk about16 these 30-day requirements to transfer a permit.17 I see two reasons why that's not legal. Number18 one, there is a -- there has been a very deep19 precedent set by the Delaware Supreme Court that20 DNREC regulations cannot override State law.21 And a lawsuit that was settled recently made22 very clear that that's the case. And there is23 an entire title of State law that has to do with24 property transfers, I think it's Title 25, but

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1 it's right there, whatever it is. 2 Well, there isn't one word of DNREC 3 having any sort of veto power over that process 4 whatsoever in State law. Nor, when you read 5 DNREC's operating authority, is there any hint 6 that they would have control in any way of a 7 real estate settlement process. So on that 8 basis, I'm pretty confident it's not a legal 9 thing to do.10 The other reason, though, however,11 is more fundamental, even. Because regulations12 are created through something called the13 Administrative Procedures Act. It's a State14 law, Title 29, Chapter 101. First of all, I15 want to read the definition of a regulation.16 Regulation. Means "Any statement of law,17 procedure, policy, right, requirement, or18 prohibition formulated and promulgated by an19 agency as a rule or standard or as a guide for20 the decision of the cases there -- thereafter by21 it or by any other agency, authority, or court."22 Now, the point is, anything you do,23 anything that affects a citizen, forces them to24 do something in a legal manner, is defined as a

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1 regulation. So, how do regulations get created? 2 If you look under -- bear with me. Too many 3 pages. Oh, shoot. I don't see it. Here's what 4 it says, I know what it says. You have to 5 publish the regulation in the State Register, 6 State Register of Regulations, you have to hold 7 a public hearing, and then the Secretary has to 8 formally adopt the regulation. Those three 9 things have to happen.10 I checked the existing septic11 regulations. I do not -- oh. And by the way,12 this language of being 30 days prior to13 settlement, written permission from DNREC,14 that's being put on septic permits right now. I15 just spoke to another gentleman today. He16 looked at his septic regulation -- permit that17 he just got recently. I said I'll bet you're18 going to find that language on it. Look for it.19 He didn't know anything about it, even though20 the guy is pretty sophisticated.21 He looks around and says, oh, here22 it is. Last item. He read it, word for word.23 That's never been approved in a regulation24 legally.

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1 I would go so far as to say this: 2 If a person walks into any State agency and they 3 are told we don't do it that way anymore, and if 4 they cannot point to a regulation approved by 5 their Secretary, they've broken State law. 6 Folks, you should be able to find the rules 7 before you go into any given agency, and you 8 should know -- I'm telling you, you can ask them 9 for site-specific concerns, of course, but you10 should in a general sense know exactly what's11 going to be required of you if you look it up,12 and right now you don't.13 So, I think that's really14 fundamental. That -- I believe that also15 applies to the boat dock that were brought up.16 That does not have that 30-day requirement, but17 it does make that business personal. So, I18 would ask -- I would urge DNREC to look at these19 things, make sure that they're following the20 rules they have to follow.21 Finally I'll say this: Sometimes I22 wish DNREC would be more forthcoming with the23 data they have available to them. A few years24 ago I was in your office in Dover, and one of


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1 their employees handed me a USGS publication, 2 and at the time, we happened to be engaged 3 pretty heavily in another regulation. I won't 4 get specific about it. Well, the USGS -- U.S. 5 Geological Survey made it pretty clear that what 6 DNREC had been saying was the source of the 7 pollution problem was not the problem. In fact, 8 it overwhelmingly made that case. And so, I 9 simply pointed it out to the folks involved, and10 you could see that it was -- that report11 suddenly became radioactive.12 This concept that septic systems13 are like the worst thing that can happen to14 anything, polluting the Inland Bays, folks, in15 my opinion, based on reading quite a few16 technical documents, is not backed up by fact.17 And I believe there are many other things that18 could be done that could have far more positive19 impact on the environment than just forcing20 people to spend 20, 25,000. I have a quote from21 five years ago on a septic system, 20 -- almost22 $22,000. And I want to point out that in the23 rural areas, many of the folks that are required24 to spend this kind of money are some of the

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1 folks who can least afford it. 2 And I would also say, given the 3 state of the economy and the outlook for the 4 future, the concept that DNREC is going to give 5 everybody money that can't afford it is a little 6 shaky, too. At the very time when you're laying 7 off people because you don't have enough money, 8 where did that idea come that we just find a 9 whole bunch of other money and fork it out to10 people, just so they can put a whole bunch of11 money into the septic system that's going to12 break down, and that over a long period of time13 is going to show a virtually unmeasurable14 difference in what's being done right now?15 So, to conclude, attitude,16 attitude. I'm hoping that everybody in this17 State government understands the world has18 changed. We are either going to -- and you19 know, this is the other discouraging thing. I'm20 not aware of one single regulation in this21 State -- maybe it's happened, but I don't know22 of it -- that specifically somebody says, you23 know what? People can't afford this anymore.24 Let's find a cheaper way. Even though we are

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1 all dramatically poorer. 2 I mean we had one man mention his 3 financial situation. I can tell you right now 4 the real estate that I own has declined, and I'm 5 just a homeowner. You know, I've got a house 6 and a couple rental houses. I would guarantee 7 you my property values have declined by 3 or 8 $400,000, along with my net worth. That's 9 happened to virtually everybody in Delaware.10 So, why isn't our State government11 approaching this problem with that mindset; that12 we all need to pull in our belt and figure how13 to be successful going forward. Thank you.14 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,15 Mr. Collins. Next I have John Burton.16 MR. NEWLIN: Thank you for calling17 on me. I got a little different concept than18 what's going on tonight. In fact -- I'm getting19 to an age myself, I'm going to put my glasses20 on. As a member of one of the boards of the21 State of Delaware, we were notified that maybe22 we should attend these hearings, in case23 something comes before us that would have some24 effect on it.

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1 As a member of the Delaware 2 Industrial Control Board, I received 3 notification from the Governor's office 4 regarding this public hearing, and would like to 5 present the following ideals, ideas, for 6 consideration. 7 As present owner of 160 acres of 8 land on the western side of Rehoboth Bay, the 9 east side of this property runs approximately10 2000 feet of the waters of Rehoboth Bay, known11 as John S. and Samuel J. Burton Farm Preserve.12 I observed the erosion problems13 that affected the property over the last ten14 years. I'm sure many other property owners also15 have the same concerns. One of my main concerns16 is the lack of funding to DNREC and the Federal17 government on lands owned by private individuals18 and reserved dynasties. I feel that this19 funding program should be reviewed and be20 brought up to date regarding the high cost21 incurred by land owners.22 My second concern is the flow of23 water coming into Rehoboth Bay never being24 restricted in any way. The dredging on many


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1 dead-end lagoons and long prongs of the 2 waterways in Rehoboth Bay have been an 3 environmental issue, which I feel should be 4 reviewed. 5 The lack of dredging, in my 6 opinion, is causing the areas that are available 7 for the influx of the water to be much smaller, 8 and we are still receiving the same or more 9 amounts of water from the ocean and other10 tributaries from the Delaware Bay. Example,11 very simple. Take a 12-ounce cup of coffee, put12 2 two ounces of sand and mud, and you're going13 to get 10 ounces of coffee in it.14 I believe the dredging program15 should have some type of committee review, or we16 should involve an environmental study of the17 possibilities of restricting the flow of water18 into Rehoboth Bay. It seems to me that if we19 cut or slow 10 to 20 percent of the intake of20 the water coming into the bay in a seven-hour21 period, it would help to control the level of22 the flooding of the water.23 As a property owner, I've spent24 thousands and thousands of dollars on shoreline

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1 erosion control. I wish to say that I am not 2 criticizing DNREC. In fact, I have a very good 3 working relationship with the agency, in trying 4 to protect the shoreline. However, it is hard 5 to continue to do environmental work such as 6 erosion control without some assistance from the 7 State or Federal government, as a private 8 reserve owner -- preserve. 9 Thank you for the opportunity to10 share my concerns regarding Executive Order 36.11 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,12 Mr. Burton.13 MR. BURTON: And I would like to14 leave a copy with you.15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Great.16 Thank you. Next I have Dave Jacobs.17 MR. JACOBSON: Unless we can18 discuss ethanol and the gas, that kind of thing,19 I might as well pass. Is that open for20 discussion? We got a Federal -- we have a21 legislator here.22 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: You know,23 ethanol is a Federal issue. It's not a State24 issue, from a regulatory point of view. I'm

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1 happy to talk with you afterwards, if that's 2 okay. 3 MR. JACOBS: Okay. Well -- 4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Or if you 5 can -- we're almost wrapping it up, so go ahead. 6 MR. JACOBS: I'll just take a 7 minute of your time. We have a State 8 Representative, they did bring up Congress and 9 the Constitution and all of that.10 I buy gas here in Millsboro, and11 it's got 10 percent ethanol. And that's12 regulated because Philadelphia has a pollution13 problem. We're all paying through the nose14 here. When I go to another state, like ten15 miles away to Pittsville, Maryland, the gas16 there has less than 10 percent ethanol. It's17 whatever Maryland dictates. And I get like 50,18 52 miles a gallon on my motorcycle. With19 Delaware gas I'm getting about 48.20 Now that's a motorcycle. So now21 transcribe that to your SUVs, and how much22 you're putting into your gas tanks, and et23 cetera. It's a Federal issue, but America and24 the Federal systems got to start with the little

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1 individual citizen. So, I'm here. 2 The EPA has some influence. It 3 doesn't come down -- maybe it goes up from your 4 end, you speak to Federal EPA people. And 5 Mr. Representative, there it is. I may not even 6 be in your district, but I'm sure if you have a 7 constituency that lives in Delaware, they 8 probably would like to get a better performance 9 out of the car. We're talking about the water10 and boating and fishing. I know the boats are11 lined up at the gas stations in Maryland,12 because the ethanol screws up the gas, screws up13 the gas tanks in boats. So, anyone that can14 alleviate and help these problems, that would be15 great.16 The other thing I noticed, what the17 EPA, or maybe DNREC, when I moved down here in18 '96, this place was full of chicken farms. A19 lot of people, chicken farms, a lot of people20 working. And they say it's the economy.21 They came down with rules. My22 neighbor had four chicken houses, and it was23 bustling, every six weeks, new chickens coming24 in, more chickens going out.


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1 And then suddenly, what happened? 2 He said, well, they've got some new regulations, 3 I've got to put like $200,000 worth of something 4 to fix it up, because perhaps of some runoff or 5 whatever it was. 6 And they -- chicken farms have all 7 dried up. You don't have to drive very far from 8 this location here to see the chicken farms that 9 have dried up. The small farmer has -- who10 couldn't afford a couple hundred thousand11 dollars to fix it up, they've gone into12 retirement, or whatever.13 Now, I -- I'm going to say it had14 to have been regulations, because I used to eat15 as much in 1969 -- '96, when I came here, and I16 don't think people have stopped eating. So,17 where are they getting their chickens from? You18 can go to Maryland and get chickens, or other19 states. But I know Delaware's chicken output20 must be a lot less.21 And whatever the EPA, DNREC can do22 to improve that, and maybe drop a lot of23 regulations. Apparently some of them aren't --24 they aren't coming out the way they were

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1 described, to be bad for the environment. I 2 don't know. But I live next to a chicken farm. 3 My water's fine. It was fine before, it's fine 4 now. You know. 5 Thank you for your time, and I hope 6 I wasn't too far off the track. Thank you very 7 much. 8 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you, 9 Mr. Jacobs. Next I have Stephanie Herron.10 MS. HERRON: My name is Stephanie11 Herron. I'm with the Delaware chapter of the12 Sierra Club, and we have some comments to offer,13 but I will have some more formal comments14 written or at a later hearing.15 I would first like to say that we16 completely agree and echo everything that17 Mr. Moyer and the Inland Bay Foundation said18 about environmental regulations not being bad19 for jobs.20 And I also have something to say.21 The Delaware chapter of the Sierra Club has been22 monitoring the DNREC and State public meeting23 web calendars in an effort to notify our members24 of the times and locations of the DNREC

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1 regulation review hearings under Executive Order 2 36. We could find no notice on either site of 3 this or the following two public hearings until 4 today, January 7th, 2013. And we find it 5 extremely troublesome that such an important 6 meeting as this would be held with less than 24 7 hours notice to the residents of Sussex County 8 who are not on the DNREC mailing list, who went 9 out on the e-mail list.10 In order to remedy this series11 oversight, we request that the public comment12 period be extended from March 1, 2013, as the13 end, to April 1, 2013. Thank you.14 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,15 Ms. Herron. Next I have Henry Glowiak as a16 maybe. Are you a yes or are you a no,17 Mr. Glowiak, if you're still with us? Sorry if18 I've pronounced that -- done an injustice to19 that. No? Not with us. Okay.20 Sam Wilson. Okay. He may be in21 the lobby. So, somebody's going to go see if22 Sam wants to --23 COUNCILMAN WILSON: How are you24 doing?

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1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: How are 2 you, sir. 3 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I don't believe 4 I put my name on to speak, but I do have one 5 comment. I believe that the -- that any 6 regulation that any agency, I don't care who it 7 is, Natural Resources or DelDOT, whoever, that's 8 put regulations upon the public, the general 9 public, that this regulation, you've come up10 with the ideas before it can be finally11 approved, it must go to the General Assembly.12 They are the ones who make it, and13 they should be the ones responsible for every14 regulation. And if they're not doing the job15 right, the general public has to know about16 this, and they have the right to vote them out.17 If bureaucrats continue to make regulations, all18 we can do is we can fuss. You can't really be19 replaced, or neither can anyone else.20 So, my recommendation is, let's put21 this -- these regulations back in to the people22 that should be responsible. Those are the23 legislators. And let them tell you at the final24 that it's improved or not approved.


(19) Pages 73 - 76



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1 If it's important enough to levy 2 fines and regulations, it's important enough for 3 them to vote on. 4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you 5 Councilman Wilson. The last thing I have signed 6 up, and we'll go back out and see if anybody has 7 any final thoughts that they want to share, or 8 if folks have been here and decided that they 9 would like to share something with us.10 Mr. Cramer.11 MR. CRAMER: I believe I'm signed12 in.13 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: You are.14 MR. CRAMER: Okay.15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I have a16 note that said you wanted to have the last word,17 and it turned out you were last on the list,18 so --19 MR. CRAMER: Well, it didn't really20 matter. I just didn't want to be the first one.21 I wanted to see what the others had to say22 first. My name is Dan Cramer. Can you actually23 hear me, or do you need me to get closer to the24 mike?

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1 Well, I'll tell you what. How do 2 you not start a business? DNREC. That's how 3 you don't start a business. A couple years 4 ago -- it had to have been more than three years 5 ago, because my face got messed up, so it had to 6 be more than three years ago when I was in a 7 meeting and I said you know how you solve this 8 problem. I wanted to get into business for this 9 particular problem, and it would have helped the10 environment.11 But then I was told, oh, you can't12 do that without a permit from DNREC, because it13 has a diesel engine on it. So in order to do14 this, in order for me to pollute the air, I had15 to kiss DNREC. And that's one person, people,16 or whatever, I'm not going to kiss.17 So therefore, the business is not18 going to start. And it would have. The machine19 itself costs about $250,000. Another building20 would have had to have been put up, and trucks21 bought. Would have been about a half a million22 dollars. And in fact, five guys would have had23 jobs.24 But do you think I'm going to

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1 invest $500,000 and they're going to tell me 2 when I can start the motor, when I have to shut 3 it off? And if you don't believe so, go watch 4 the advertising in the fine print, generally on 5 a Sunday in The News Journal. And you'll see 6 where somebody wants to use a diesel engine, and 7 they'll say, oh, so many pounds of X, so many 8 pounds of Y, and so many pounds of Z is going to 9 be put out. And this is regulated, and you will10 not be permitted to put out more.11 And I'll tell you what actually12 happened. This is a true story. Delaware13 Electric put a diesel engine to their plant, to14 their headquarters. Wanting to use it as a15 backup when electric went off and they needed16 more electric. They were flat-out told, don't17 start that engine. Now, did they change18 anything since then? Don't know. Don't really19 care.20 The whole thing is a bunch of crap,21 because that little bit of pollution that I22 wanted to put out, I would have offset it by23 reducing the pollution of what I was going to24 remove. But I'm not going to -- I'd rather take

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1 that $500,000 and just stick it in a bank, get 2 that 1 percent. I'd be way ahead of the game. 3 And now that's going to talk a 4 little bit about septic tanks. These same 5 septic tanks that they want to now bring in 6 here, 15 years ago they wouldn't even approve 7 them. Why not? Because they said they didn't 8 work. 9 When the fact of the matter was, in10 Ohio they were being used and the water was not11 putting to the ground. It was actually put12 right along the driveway and that, and the13 longer roads. And I said how in the world can14 you do that? The health department approved it.15 That's how good the water was.16 And by the way, all these Inland17 Bay people here that are so hepped up, the best18 thing you guys could do in the Inland Bays area,19 move out of there. Because then that pollution20 won't be there, because you're the ones21 polluting it. Thank you.22 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,23 Mr. Cramer. I don't have any other folks signed24 up to speak. Is there anyone who would like to


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1 speak who hasn't? Is there anyone who would 2 like to speak again? 3 COUNCILMAN WILSON: Me. I got one 4 comment. I don't need to come up there, but -- 5 Sam Wilson. I'd like to make one quick comment. 6 Sulfur has been removed from fuel oil, diesel 7 fuel, and a lot of money's been spent, a lot of 8 regulations. At this point in time, farmers are 9 buying sulfur to put on their farms. We're just10 actually wasting people's money to do -- or take11 away sulfur out of fuel. And it's only got12 worse since now we've taken sulfur out of fuel.13 Before, we did get some natural sulfur, things14 like that, that would come back on the soil.15 But now we're short on sulfur.16 So, it's just a comment. Let us17 know what -- how some things -- the EPA has18 screwed up a lot of things, and it's cost us a19 lot of money, and it doesn't amount to a hill of20 beans, and that made things worse. Thank you.21 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you.22 Mr. Moyer.23 MR. MOYER: Again, president of the24 Inland Bays Foundation. I would like to remind

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1 the commenters and DNREC that Executive Order 36 2 was very specific on what regulations are going 3 to be reviewed, and those are regulations that 4 are older than three years. And much of the 5 testimony tonight has been on regulations that 6 have been proposed within the last three years. 7 So, I would request that the 8 Department stick with the requirements of the 9 Executive Order, and/or get clarification as to10 whether or not it's going to look at regulations11 that have been adopted after that three-year12 limit, and would urge them to stick with the13 intent of Executive Order 36. Thank you.14 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,15 Mr. Moyer. Mr. Wheatley.16 MR. WHEATLEY: My name is Bob17 Wheatley, and I would ask that you would allow18 common sense to prevail, and respect the19 comments of every person here who bothered to20 give up their time to show up, whether it was a21 regulation three years old, one year old, or a22 regulation yet to be promulgated.23 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,24 sir. Seeing no other hands, I wanted to take a

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1 moment to thank all of you for coming, and 2 either sharing your thoughts or coming to 3 listen. I appreciate the respect with which you 4 delivered your comments, the thought that you've 5 provided behind those. 6 And I would just say this: I also 7 heard a number of issues that are examples that 8 people brought to the microphone. There is a 9 larger regulatory context behind most of them,10 but if you're -- I would encourage you, if11 you're having issues, and maybe you've tried and12 this didn't work for you, but you know, working13 with the agency, as Representative Gray14 mentioned earlier, to try and solve issues and15 navigate through some of these regulatory16 hurdles, you know, we do a pretty good job if we17 are given the opportunity.18 We don't always get it right, and I19 understand that, but I would just encourage you20 all to reach out to the agency and let us know21 what your challenges are. We might be able to22 help you. Not to say that there isn't a23 regulatory issue behind that, but you know, we24 spend a lot of time working with constituents

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1 and the regulated community to try and both be 2 protective and responsible and reasonable. 3 So with that I will stop, and 4 again, thank you all. And remember, we have 5 additional hearings. Right now the public 6 comment period is open until March 1. 7 Ms. Herron, your request will be taken under 8 advisement. 9 So, thank you all again.10 (Hearing concluded at 7:55 p.m.)11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24


(21) Pages 81 - 84



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1 I N D E X 2 PAGE 3 SPEAKER: Carol Zander 11 4 SPEAKER: Jim Baxter 15 5 SPEAKER: Dave Jaeger 17 6 SPEAKER: Floyd Morton 18 7 SPEAKER: Sally Ford 22 8 SPEAKER: Tom Ford 28 9 SPEAKER: Representative Ron Gray 32 10 SPEAKER: Bob Coleman 35 11 SPEAKER: Bill Moyer 40 12 SPEAKER: Scott Evans 47 13 SPEAKER: Larry Mayo 53 14 SPEAKER: Rich Collins 56 15 SPEAKER: John Burton 67 16 SPEAKER: Dave Jacobs 70 17 SPEAKER: Stephanie Herron 74 18 SPEAKER: Councilman Sam Wilson 75 19 SPEAKER: Dan Cramer 77 20 SPEAKER: Councilman Sam Wilson 81 21 SPEAKER: Bill Moyer 81 22 SPEAKER: Bob Wheatley 82 23 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 86 24

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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, JULIANNE LaBADIA, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter and Notary Public, do hereby certify 5 that the foregoing record, pages 1 through 85 6 inclusive, is a true and accurate transcript of 7 my stenographic notes taken on January 7, 2013, 8 in the above-captioned matter. 9 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 10 hand and seal this 11th day of January, 2013, at 11 Wilmington. 12 13 14 15 16 Julianne LaBadia, RDR, CRR 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24


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33:21 34:1beginning (2) 3:1 51:11behind (5) 21:6 23:3 83:5,9,23beholden (1)

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best (2) 59:21 80:17bet (1) 63:17better (6) 9:4 33:18,19 34:22 46:2 72:8beyond (3) 5:2 23:10 31:14big (6) 25:23,24 26:1 29:24 32:1 60:22bill (5) 25:23 26:1 40:10,12 46:22billions (1) 58:23bit (9) 2:8 6:1 16:7 24:1 26:17 49:12 54:5 79:21 80:4blank (1) 20:9blooms (1) 45:17Board (1) 68:2boards (1) 67:20boat (1) 64:15boating (1) 72:10boats (2) 72:10, 13Bob (3) 35:16, 18 82:16body (5) 8:14 11:23 13:8 14:12 23:11boom (1) 17:22boomers (1)

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C

Cabinet (1) 2:12cajones (1) 56:3calendars (1)

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(88) assistance - care



76:6 79:19careful (1) 41:19Carol (1) 11:15Carvel (1) 4:23case (4) 42:2 61:22 65:8 67:22cases (3) 34:2 36:13 62:20Cassidy (1) 14:19Castle (1) 46:12caused (1) 44:11causing (1) 69:6Center (1) 4:21certain (1) 58:10certainly (5) 2:23 3:7 6:19 56:7, 23certainty (1) 6:1cetera (2) 13:22 71:23challenges (1)

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check (1) 20:9checked (1) 63:10Chesapeake (2)

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coastwide (1) 19:9coffee (2) 69:11, 13Coleman (4)

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7:11contamination (1)

7:7content (1) 39:10


(89) careful - content



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3:24contractor (1)

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41:13

couple (5) 26:21 35:9 67:6 73:10 78:3course (2) 19:18 64:9courses (1) 55:14Court (3) 59:3 61:19 62:21cover (1) 14:6crabs (1) 42:23Cramer (6) 77:10, 11,14,19,22 80:23crap (1) 79:20create (1) 21:15created (2) 62:12 63:1creates (2) 42:1 43:12creating (1) 5:24creation (1) 43:5Creek (1) 12:24creel (2) 8:19 18:18criticizing (1) 70:2Cuccinelli (1)

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D

daily (1) 58:18Dan (1) 77:22data (4) 44:23 45:15 46:4 64:23date (1) 68:20Dave (6) 16:19, 22 28:10 35:4 56:20 70:16David (2) 2:3 17:4day (2) 28:17 32:4

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delivered (1) 83:4Delmarva (1) 6:9demands (1) 40:4demographic (1)

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deterrent (1)

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36:20


(90) context - discussed



discussion (1)

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25:18diverse (3) 3:8 6:5 18:19Division (8) 6:6, 12,22 7:14 8:11,23 9:1,11divisions (1) 9:23DNREC (45) 3:7 11:20 17:14 18:5 22:12 24:10 25:21 28:13,22 29:7, 15,19 30:7 33:8 34:24 35:6 41:2 44:16,22 46:13,18,23 54:22 57:4 58:16 59:11 61:13,20 62:2 63:13 64:18, 22 65:6 66:4 68:16 70:2 72:17 73:21 74:22,24 75:8 78:2,12,15 82:1DNREC's (4)

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dynasties (1)

68:18

E

earlier (5) 5:15 8:10 9:14 37:16 83:14east (1) 68:9eat (1) 73:14eating (1) 73:16echo (1) 74:16economic (6)

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5:24efficient (1) 4:7effort (3) 34:15 41:2 74:23efforts (1) 21:20either (6) 8:6 10:1 16:7 66:18 75:2 83:2Elect (1) 35:14Electric (3) 79:13, 15,16electronically (1)

5:12eligible (1) 53:3elimination (1)

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else (4) 37:15 38:1 53:2 76:19e-mail (1) 75:9emissions (1) 6:21employees (3)

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envy (1) 17:18EPA (20) 3:16 6:17 7:9 23:24,24 38:15,17 55:12,19 58:13,15,22 59:4,11,13 72:2,4,17 73:21 81:17erosion (4) 31:18 68:12 70:1,6erroneous (1)

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25:12 31:7 45:19everybody (5)


(91) discussion - everybody



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expressed (1)

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F

face (2) 57:20 78:5facilities (2) 7:23 8:2fact (10) 46:6 48:10 49:20 60:11 65:7,16 67:18 70:2 78:22 80:9fact-based (1)

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8 81:9Federal (11) 3:16, 22 55:17 57:22 68:16 70:7,20,23 71:23,24 72:4fee (4) 24:13,13 47:3,7feedback (3)

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59:10


(92) everybody's - frustrated



fuel (4) 81:6,7, 11,12full (1) 72:18fully (2) 24:5,17functions (2) 3:9 7:16Fund (2) 6:8 54:17fundamental (3)

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hard (1) 70:4hardly (1) 16:4hardship (1) 37:5hardships (1) 44:4Harvard (1) 42:17hauling (1) 7:1hazardous (4)

3:18 6:22,24 7:3headquarters (1)

79:14health (5) 7:13 32:5,8 40:4 80:14heap (1) 16:8hear (6) 4:17 11:3 12:15 46:10 58:19 77:23heard (6) 12:3 14:10 34:11 48:21,23 83:7hearing (8) 6:3 10:1 12:11 42:7 63:7 68:4 74:14 84:10hearings (9) 5:9 22:14 44:17 46:12 48:20 67:22 75:1,3 84:5heart (3) 56:10, 24 59:8heavily (1) 65:3heirs (2) 30:5 38:8held (1) 75:6help (10) 6:17, 17 30:18 32:7, 8 37:9,9 69:21 72:14 83:22helped (1) 78:9helpful (1) 20:15Henry (1) 75:15hepped (1) 80:17here's (2) 52:15

63:3Herron (5) 74:9, 10,11 75:15 84:7hey (2) 20:8 38:17high (2) 57:13 68:20hill (1) 81:19hinder (1) 42:20hindering (1)

45:13hint (1) 62:5hire (1) 27:18history (1) 43:3hmm (1) 28:7HOA (2) 31:8,8HOAs (2) 31:9, 22Hocker (2) 48:16 50:14hold (2) 31:19 63:6holding (2) 32:6 37:5home (3) 5:5 52:20 60:13homeowner (1)

67:5homeowners (1)

15:7homes (3) 54:8, 9,15honestly (1) 6:16hope (7) 39:13 40:6 56:10 59:9,15,17 74:5hoping (4) 11:18 25:5 58:4 66:16hours (1) 75:7house (11) 25:7, 12 31:16 46:22 52:16, 18,21,24 54:22,23 67:5houses (4) 54:16,


(93) fuel - houses



16 67:6 72:22housing (1) 55:7huge (1) 39:8hundred (1) 73:10hundreds (1) 31:5hunters (1) 8:13hurdles (1) 83:16Hurricane (2)

9:18 57:18hurry (1) 49:15hurt (2) 55:11 56:12

I

idea (2) 23:3 66:8ideals (1) 68:5ideas (2) 68:5 76:10identical (1) 60:19ill-conceived (1)

18:3immediate (1)

40:5impact (5) 21:16 36:17 37:1 44:19 65:19impacts (2) 7:13 9:5impediments (1)

44:10impervious (2)

27:11,14implemented (2)

38:13 56:11implore (1) 46:13important (6)

4:17 9:19 61:1 75:5 77:1,2impose (2) 11:21 37:4impression (1)

59:16improper (1) 41:6improve (2)

33:18 73:22

improved (2)

36:2 76:24improvement (2)

24:22 36:10improvements (2)

24:18 36:4improving (1)

40:23inadequate (1)

45:2including (1)

51:21income (1) 55:2increase (1)

42:12incredible (1)

57:19incurred (1) 68:21indeed (2) 17:11 42:21Indian (2) 14:12 32:23indicated (1)

10:18indicates (2) 44:7 58:1individual (6) 8:6 20:13 37:20 38:5 47:20 72:1individuals (2)

2:15 68:17indulge (1) 2:7Industrial (1) 68:2industries (1) 43:3industry (1) 42:12inevitably (1)

42:19infinitesimal (2)

36:12 39:9influence (1) 72:2influx (1) 69:7inherited (2) 54:8, 18Initiative (7)

18:14 20:23 21:2,5,6,23 22:6

injustice (1) 75:18Inland (19) 14:3, 4 17:9,14 32:22 34:7 40:12,14,22, 24 41:9,16 45:16,23 65:14 74:17 80:16,18 81:24inlet (1) 32:24input (1) 44:14inserted (1) 26:3inspected (1) 60:3inspection (3)

37:16,18 40:1inspections (3)

14:14,23 15:4inspector (1)

37:21install (1) 13:3installation (2)

6:11 8:9installed (1) 13:22instead (1) 33:16insult (1) 26:16intake (1) 69:19intended (1)

40:19intent (6) 23:7, 22 41:17 44:9 46:17 82:13interaction (1)

22:12interest (2) 2:17, 19interested (3) 6:3 8:13 9:24interests (1) 46:7interference (1)

43:17interpretation (1)

39:22into (25) 7:17 24:23 25:11 26:3 34:13 36:24 38:23 39:14 42:6 44:14 45:18,

19 49:22 50:9 55:3 60:21 64:2,7 66:11 68:23 69:18, 20 71:22 73:11 78:8introduce (1) 42:6introducing (1)

45:3introduction (1)

28:13intrusion (1) 55:7invest (1) 79:1involve (1) 69:16involved (2)

24:13 65:9irresponsible (2)

44:22 46:9irrigation (2) 7:21 8:2issue (13) 4:10 24:10 28:10 29:24 30:7 36:23 51:3 52:6 69:3 70:23,24 71:23 83:23issues (5) 32:2, 10 83:7,11,14item (3) 27:9 28:9 63:22

J

Jacobs (6) 16:21, 22 70:16 71:3, 6 74:9JACOBSON (2)

16:21 70:17Jaeger (7) 16:19, 23,23 17:2,2, 4 18:9J-a-e-g-e-r (1)

17:2January (2)

22:17 75:4jewel (2) 17:10 34:7

Jim (3) 14:19, 19 15:16job (5) 17:17 28:14 42:9 76:14 83:16jobs (7) 26:1 42:1,10,13 43:13 74:19 78:23Joe (1) 48:10John (2) 67:15 68:11joint (1) 59:11Journal (1) 79:5June (2) 2:11 46:23

K

keep (6) 21:10 24:1,10 25:6, 12 26:14keeping (1) 24:14Kent (2) 4:18 46:12Killer' (1) 42:9kills (1) 45:18kind (5) 20:7 21:19 47:18 65:24 70:18King (1) 4:20kiss (2) 78:15,16known (1) 68:10knows (1) 57:4

L

lack (2) 68:16 69:5lagoons (1) 69:1land (17) 17:8 29:11,20,22 31:15 38:5 41:6,13 47:2, 4 55:18,18,23 56:15 57:9 68:8,21lands (7) 5:22


(94) housing - lands



21:10,11 29:10 46:19, 21 68:17language (5)

39:18,21 41:18 63:12,18large (3) 6:20 13:7 56:2larger (3) 27:16 31:6 83:9Larry (1) 53:23last (20) 2:19,19 15:19 17:1 24:1,6,20 25:7 26:7 34:13 36:6 42:14 55:13 56:11 63:22 68:13 77:5,16, 17 82:6later (1) 74:14law (10) 39:21 59:23 60:20 61:14,20,23 62:4,14,16 64:5lawsuit (1) 61:21lay (1) 56:15laying (1) 66:6lead (4) 17:7 41:20 43:22 46:1leading (1) 45:17learning (1) 44:4lease (1) 29:9least (3) 15:4 50:5 66:1leave (1) 70:14leaves (1) 56:13left (1) 48:4legacy (1) 7:7legal (3) 61:17 62:8,24legally (1) 63:24legislation (3) 9:3 50:12 52:5legislative (2)

2:19 50:17

legislator (1)

70:21legislators (2)

56:1 76:23less (6) 25:17 36:17 49:3 71:16 73:20 75:6letter (1) 26:3letting (1) 35:8level (5) 3:21 5:1 6:18 38:19 69:21levy (1) 77:1liable (1) 25:6life (2) 43:23 46:2likely (1) 17:22limit (2) 50:4 82:12limited (2) 44:21 55:2limits (9) 8:20 18:18 36:12 38:12,14,20, 21 39:12 42:9line (5) 15:23 16:4,10,13 25:20lined (1) 72:11list (6) 10:17 11:9,11 75:8, 9 77:17listen (4) 2:6 10:13 20:18 83:3listened (1) 55:20little (20) 2:8,10 5:24 9:14 16:7 25:20 26:17 32:22 43:20 44:16 49:12 50:5 53:6 54:5 60:12 66:5 67:17 71:24 79:21 80:4littler (1) 25:24

live (6) 14:11 17:4 29:17 42:3 54:12 74:2lives (1) 72:7living (1) 58:3lobby (1) 75:21local (2) 3:21 41:6location (1) 73:8locations (1)

74:24long (7) 39:22 49:2,14 58:3 61:5 66:12 69:1longer (4) 28:17 49:12 50:11 80:13look (18) 2:13, 24 3:24 11:7 13:11 34:16 35:8 36:18 39:6 49:1 53:19 60:22, 23 63:2,18 64:11,18 82:10looked (1) 63:16looking (14) 3:4 4:2,3 5:19 14:16,19 17:23 23:9 33:9 34:11 35:5 38:19 54:3 58:1looks (4) 11:14 16:7 60:15 63:21loss (1) 47:9lost (1) 57:6lot (35) 2:17 3:8 6:20 9:23 21:18 25:3,12 26:7,24 27:2, 6,11,14,15,22 28:22 36:3 38:10,24 49:8 52:21,22

55:10 56:12 60:5 61:1 72:19,19 73:20,22 81:7, 7,18,19 83:24lots (16) 26:23 27:13,16,16 30:24 47:20, 22 48:6,7 49:23,24 50:7 52:10 54:8,20, 24low (1) 21:16lower (1) 17:24Luther (1) 4:20

M

machine (1)

78:18mail (1) 49:7mailing (1) 75:8main (3) 17:13 61:15 68:15maintain (5) 3:19, 20 19:20 34:8, 22maintaining (2)

3:12 19:7major (2) 29:24 32:2makes (3) 24:1 26:4 38:3making (8) 32:7 36:9,10,16 40:16 50:10 61:10,13man (1) 67:2manage (3) 9:20 19:12,16managed (1)

13:22management (6)

9:10 19:6,8 22:13 25:10 27:4manager (1)

14:19

managing (1) 8:16mandate (1)

37:19manner (2) 7:16 62:24manufacturer's (1)

15:3many (13) 32:11 34:1 38:13 47:8 58:16 63:2 65:17,23 68:14,24 79:7, 7,8March (3) 5:7 75:12 84:6Markell (2) 2:11 34:15market (2) 55:7,8marks (1) 29:21Martin (1) 4:20Maryland (5)

42:13 71:15, 17 72:11 73:18material (1) 7:2matter (4) 30:5 48:9 77:20 80:9may (12) 7:19 8:19 13:13 23:3 37:6 44:12 49:17 52:13 53:1,1 72:5 75:20maybe (15) 4:1 5:23,24 9:14 10:20 16:6 18:17 57:13 66:21 67:21 72:3,17 73:22 75:16 83:11Mayo (3) 53:23, 24 56:19mean (14) 8:19 12:2 19:22 31:17 38:22 42:23 49:1,8, 9,15,24 51:14 53:17 67:2


(95) language - mean



meaningful (1)

44:14means (2) 43:16 62:16meantime (2)

48:2,19Medicare (1)

57:21medication (1)

16:9meet (1) 4:2meeting (9) 21:3 22:5 28:11 54:1 59:10,11 74:22 75:6 78:7meetings (1)

58:16member (3) 41:8 67:20 68:1members (1)

74:23mention (2) 6:5 67:2mentioned (8)

5:15 8:10 14:1 18:11 20:24 37:15 51:5 83:14messed (1) 78:5met (2) 41:4 50:14mezzanine (1) 5:1microphone (1)

83:8mid (1) 41:8midst (1) 3:10might (6) 3:16 8:15 17:7 31:21 70:19 83:21mike (3) 10:20 12:6 77:24mikes (1) 10:24miles (2) 71:15, 18million (1) 78:21millions (1) 47:9

Millsboro (1)

71:10mind (2) 7:19 61:12mindset (1) 67:11minimize (1) 7:12minute (2) 36:14 71:7minutes (1) 2:8mistakes (2) 44:5 61:13misunderstanding (1)

44:7mobile (3) 54:8, 9,15moment (2) 35:8 83:1Monday (1) 4:18money (12) 39:9 50:2 54:21 55:1 58:11 65:24 66:5,7, 9,11 81:10,19money's (1) 81:7monitoring (2)

6:13 74:22month (1) 4:22more (39) 4:7 6:1 20:11 21:9 22:24 26:17,22 28:16,18 33:9, 13 34:3 36:11, 12,16 38:23 40:5,16 42:16, 23,24 52:8 56:5,7 58:9, 10 59:13 60:7, 24 62:11 64:22 65:18 69:8 72:24 74:13 78:4,6 79:10,16morning (1) 20:22Morton (12) 18:9, 10,21,24 19:22 20:2,6, 22 21:13,21

22:3,7most (10) 10:2, 20 19:15 20:15 27:20 35:5 36:14 56:10 57:3 83:9Mostly (1) 19:6motor (1) 79:2motorcycle (2)

71:18,20mound (2) 15:22 16:15move (4) 19:10 40:5 48:13 80:19moved (1) 72:17movie (2) 29:18, 18Moyer (8) 40:10, 11,12 47:16 74:17 81:22, 23 82:15much (14) 4:1 5:23 32:20 35:1 54:12 57:15 58:19 59:21 60:18 69:7 71:21 73:15 74:7 82:4mud (1) 69:12multistate (1)

19:14municipalities (1)

7:24must (3) 17:19 73:20 76:11myself (2) 54:17 67:19Myth (1) 42:9

N

name (11) 2:3 11:14,15 16:19 17:1,3 40:11 74:10

76:4 77:22 82:16Nanticoke (2)

12:22,23Nations (1) 56:7Natural (7) 2:4 8:16 9:19 32:20 34:21 76:7 81:13nature (1) 18:6navigate (1)

83:15necessarily (2)

4:1 52:5necessary (1)

12:9need (27) 6:17 7:1,4,12 10:10,13 11:8 14:22 18:4 23:10 25:15 26:18 30:2,3 36:17 37:6,8, 13,16,17 52:11 61:3,3, 4 67:12 77:23 81:4needed (3) 23:5 45:1 79:15needs (12) 30:1, 14,15 33:8 35:7 38:16 39:5 49:4,5, 11 50:3 58:11negative (1)

36:17neighbor (1)

72:22neither (1) 76:19net (4) 54:10,13, 19 67:8new (23) 11:21 12:1,21 22:17, 20 23:13,19 26:2,21 32:16 34:10 36:19, 21 37:2,6,14 38:11 46:12

54:24 59:24 60:10 72:23 73:2NEWLIN (1)

67:16News (2) 43:8 79:5next (16) 4:18 16:9,19 18:9 32:14 35:9,16 40:10 47:16 53:23 56:19 67:15 70:16 74:2,9 75:15nitrogen (5)

38:19 39:10 45:6,16,18nitrogens (1) 37:3NOI (9) 24:10, 11 25:6,12,23 26:7 30:23 31:11 32:7NOIs (3) 26:9, 11,15none (1) 16:15non-regulatory (1)

21:8Nor (1) 62:4north (1) 33:2nose (1) 71:13notably (1) 3:16note (1) 77:16noted (1) 42:17notes (1) 11:8notice (3) 23:21 75:2,7noticed (1) 72:16notification (1)

68:3notified (1) 67:21notify (1) 74:23notion (2) 21:6 25:16nourish (1) 43:5November (1)

43:7now-a-days (1)

50:19


(96) meaningful - now-a-days



number (16) 3:15 4:6,14 5:16 6:4,14 7:22 8:20 10:9 19:13 28:9 42:12 44:6 57:24 61:17 83:7numbers (1)

57:12nutrient (1) 13:4nutshell (1) 35:2

O

Obama (1) 56:6objection (1)

40:15observed (1)

68:12obvious (3)

59:24 60:4,6obviously (1) 2:9occasion (1) 58:9occur (1) 43:19occurs (1) 43:21ocean (1) 69:9off (5) 55:22 66:7 74:6 79:3,15offer (1) 74:12office (4) 14:20 33:5 64:24 68:3offset (2) 47:10 79:22Ohio (1) 80:10oil (1) 81:6okayed (1) 16:15old (6) 22:19 23:18 34:12 49:2 82:21,21older (3) 23:12 49:3 82:4O'Mara (1) 29:4once (4) 38:16 41:3 43:4 52:16

one (40) 3:23 14:15,21 17:13,19 22:13 24:3,6 28:10 31:16 37:17 39:11, 17 41:20 48:11,13,19 49:6 52:4 54:2 55:3,5, 10 58:9 59:18, 20 61:15,18 62:2 64:24 66:20 67:2,20 68:15 76:4 77:20 78:15 81:3,5 82:21one-acre (1)

27:15onerous (2)

33:21 34:1ones (8) 7:8 22:20 23:14 34:12 36:19 76:12,13 80:20online (2) 2:21 5:12only (15) 12:22 16:13,13 18:5 23:8 25:16 26:10 31:16 33:1,10 36:18 46:13 53:12 54:21 81:11on-site (3) 12:13 14:20 51:6onto (3) 16:9 32:7 39:24open (10) 20:3, 14 24:10,11 25:13,13 26:10,13 70:19 84:6opened (1) 22:23operate (1) 8:2operated (2) 7:22, 23operating (1) 62:5

opinion (4) 48:24 58:11 65:15 69:6opinions (1)

13:10opportunities (1)

21:17opportunity (5)

13:15 23:10 47:14 70:9 83:17Order (23) 2:12, 21 3:19 7:12 19:20 22:22 41:17,20 44:7, 9,13 46:17 55:4 56:24 58:5 70:10 75:1,10 78:13, 14 82:1,9,13ordinary (1) 31:10organizations (4)

19:13,14 41:6 45:22others (3) 32:11 48:10 77:21otherwise (2)

8:13 58:7ounces (2) 69:12, 13ourselves (1) 3:11out (34) 2:2 16:11 26:6,7, 19,20 29:9 30:23 31:7 33:1 38:1 49:11 50:8,22 56:2 57:8 60:19 65:9,22 66:9 72:9,24 73:24 75:9 76:16 77:6,17 79:9,10,22 80:19 81:11, 12 83:20outcome (1)

51:23outlook (1) 66:3

output (1) 73:19over (22) 2:17 4:6 10:20,21 12:5 19:17 28:21 31:8 35:9 36:6,12 40:8 42:14 48:6 55:24,24, 24 56:5,11 62:3 66:12 68:13overdevelopment (2)

17:12 18:2overloaded (1)

45:16overreach (1)

37:23override (1) 61:20oversee (3) 7:10 8:8,24overseeing (1) 9:4oversees (1) 7:15oversight (7) 7:5 8:3 9:10,12 18:19 43:20 75:11overwhelmingly (1)

65:8owe (1) 55:9own (3) 3:5 5:14 67:4owned (1) 68:17owner (5) 35:20 40:1 68:7 69:23 70:8owners (2) 68:14, 21oysters (1) 42:24

P

packers (1) 43:1pages (1) 63:3paid (1) 50:6paper (1) 53:19paragraph (1)

60:12park (2) 8:24

47:7Parks (1) 8:23part (1) 15:1particular (3)

15:8 20:13 78:9particularly (4)

3:17 17:9,20 20:20particulars (1)

61:1parties (1) 47:1partner (1) 33:17partnership (1)

34:4parts (1) 35:21pass (1) 70:19passed (2) 9:3,13passing (1) 38:7past (4) 9:18 23:5 44:5 60:8paved (1) 24:5pay (6) 25:22 47:3 50:8 57:17 58:23 59:14paying (7) 31:11 48:6 49:6,8 50:6 57:20 71:13penalized (1) 27:3penalizing (1)

27:15pending (3) 19:5 21:22 59:8pendulum (1)

33:24Pennsylvania (1)

42:13people (27)

11:12 23:22 31:19 35:5,23 37:9 38:24 40:6 42:2 43:2 55:11 57:8,14 58:10 60:1 65:20 66:7,10,23


(97) number - people



72:4,19,19 73:16 76:21 78:15 80:17 83:8people's (1) 81:10percent (8) 4:13 31:9 42:11 57:13 69:19 71:11,16 80:2percentage (2)

27:11,13performance (1)

72:8performs (1) 60:2perhaps (2)

37:14 73:4period (6) 22:24 52:9 66:12 69:21 75:12 84:6permission (2)

40:2 63:13permit (25) 5:22 7:1 16:1,2 23:22 24:21 25:13,15,19 27:4,7,10 28:21 29:3,19, 20 30:4,7,20 31:17 32:8 45:9 61:16 63:16 78:12permits (6) 4:9 29:15 38:2 45:9,10 63:14permitted (1)

79:10permitting (4) 4:8 8:4 28:11,15person (6) 27:6 31:23 33:12 64:2 78:15 82:19personal (4) 32:8 38:2 56:23 64:17personally (4)

29:1,10,21

30:10perspective (1)

33:10pertains (2) 21:2, 22Philadelphia (1)

71:12philosophy (1)

43:21physically (1)

26:19picking (1) 17:21pickup (1) 15:19picture (1) 60:22piece (3) 38:4 53:3,19pier (1) 29:10Pittsville (1) 71:15place (11) 8:24 9:7 13:20 15:14 33:19, 22 34:13,22 53:1 55:15 72:18placed (3) 50:12 52:19 53:3placement (1)

9:15places (2) 15:21 49:22plan (3) 40:8 41:14 54:14planning (2)

11:21 41:11plans (3) 9:10 19:8 33:15plant (1) 79:13platform (1) 33:7play (1) 53:13playing (1) 6:19please (5) 5:5 11:16 14:9 20:21 23:15pm (2) 4:22 84:10point (16) 5:7 28:11 29:18 33:7 34:17

39:17 52:1,8, 11 57:1 60:19 62:22 64:4 65:22 70:24 81:8pointed (2) 38:1 65:9points (2) 9:24 52:4policy (1) 62:17pollute (1) 78:14polluted (2)

33:23 40:24polluting (2)

65:14 80:21pollution (8) 17:8 18:2 42:9 65:7 71:12 79:21,23 80:19poorer (1) 67:1poorly (1) 60:2portions (2)

12:22,23position (3)

34:10 35:4 57:9positive (3)

43:15 45:5 65:18possibilities (1)

69:17possible (1) 21:15potentially (1) 9:5pounds (3) 79:7, 8,8Power (4) 6:9 30:3 56:5 62:3practical (1) 39:7precedent (1)

61:19preexisting (1)

39:21pre-judge (1)

51:23present (3) 37:5 68:5,7presented (1) 46:5preserve (4) 18:5

27:1 68:11 70:8preserving (1)

9:17president (4)

40:12,21 56:6 81:23pressure (1)

58:15pretty (6) 54:12 62:8 63:20 65:3,5 83:16prevail (1) 82:18prevent (2) 58:24 60:16previously (2)

27:21 51:4print (1) 79:4prior (1) 63:12private (7) 7:24 8:1 21:11 47:1,19 68:17 70:7prize (2) 17:15 61:8probably (13) 3:7 9:13 15:18 26:22 48:3,3 49:16 52:7 58:1,11 60:24 61:8 72:8problem (11)

28:23,24 30:23 52:15, 15 65:7,7 67:11 71:13 78:8,9problems (2)

68:12 72:14procedure (1)

62:17Procedures (1)

62:13process (19) 3:3, 3 4:8,16 5:3 7:21 12:12 23:7 28:24 29:1 30:18

31:11 44:15 61:2,6,8,11 62:3,7processes (1) 4:4processors (1)

43:1professional (2)

38:9 58:17program (8) 4:11 6:8,16 7:10 9:8 18:15 68:19 69:14programs (6)

3:15,20 4:10, 12 6:1 21:8program's (1) 9:7progress (1) 41:5pro-growth (1)

45:22prohibition (1)

62:18projects (2) 24:3 27:23promulgated (4)

13:1,2 62:18 82:22prongs (1) 69:1pronounced (1)

75:18properties (2)

30:13 60:17property (23) 8:6 16:4,10,12 24:4 30:12 35:20 37:5,6, 20,21 39:20, 24 44:3 45:8 53:4 59:19 61:24 67:7 68:9,13,14 69:23property's (1)

30:10proposal (1) 51:6propose (1) 18:23proposed (5)

12:12 13:24 14:18 19:19


(98) people's - proposed



82:6proposes (1)

12:18protect (3) 21:10 34:6 70:4protecting (1) 42:1protection (4)

40:18 43:12 44:8 47:11protective (1) 84:2protectors (1)

17:13proud (1) 32:18provide (2) 11:5 18:5provided (1) 83:5providing (1) 10:5public (26) 3:4 5:9 7:13 12:11,14 13:8, 15 19:23 32:6, 9 40:4 43:7 44:14,17 46:20 51:21 56:9 63:7 68:4 74:22 75:3,11 76:8, 9,15 84:5publication (1)

65:1publicized (1)

59:20publish (1) 63:5published (1) 43:7pull (2) 50:22 67:12pure (1) 38:23purpose (1) 2:10purposes (2) 8:7, 7pushed (1) 4:10put (29) 14:21 16:2,8,14 31:2 33:22 38:23 52:17, 24 53:18 54:9, 24 60:11,21 63:14 66:10

67:19 69:11 73:3 76:4,8, 20 78:20 79:9, 10,13,22 80:11 81:9puts (1) 39:14putting (5) 12:20 33:15 37:14 71:22 80:11

Q

qualify (1) 25:19qualities (1) 18:1quality (5) 6:14 35:24 43:23 45:15 46:2quick (4) 9:22, 22 11:7 81:5quicker (1) 27:14quickly (2) 21:7 58:14quite (3) 6:16 7:11 65:15quote (9) 42:18, 22 44:6,10,11, 14 45:23,24 65:20

R

radio (1) 11:19radioactive (1)

65:11raise (2) 38:10 51:4raised (2) 39:18 41:15ran (2) 33:7 49:22rate (1) 57:13rather (1) 79:24reach (2) 27:13 83:20reaction (1) 34:10read (7) 11:20 40:20 41:19 55:24 62:4,15

63:22reading (2)

60:10 65:15real (6) 29:23 38:8 41:5 58:13 62:7 67:4realize (1) 58:5really (21) 2:6 4:10,16 10:12 21:6,7 25:21 26:18 33:6,7 35:2 36:9,15, 24 58:19,20 59:17 64:13 76:18 77:19 79:18reason (4) 3:14 15:2 50:20 62:10reasonable (2)

17:17 84:2reasons (1) 61:17rebuild (1) 28:20receive (1) 6:10received (5) 5:10 11:12 44:17 51:24 68:2receiving (1) 69:8recently (3) 7:21 61:21 63:17recognize (1) 40:6recommendation (1)

76:20recommended (1)

5:16reconsidered (1)

50:4record (5) 11:4 12:14 42:6 51:6 52:9recorded (3) 29:4 52:17 53:14recreate (1) 42:3recreational (1)

21:16reduce (3) 2:14 4:8 44:10

reduced (1) 44:12reducing (1)

79:23reevaluated (2)

47:22 49:19reform (1) 44:15regarding (3)

68:4,20 70:10regardless (1)

37:20RegionThe (1)

42:10Register (2) 63:5, 6regs (2) 5:20 34:11regular (1) 55:11regulate (2)

55:18 59:5regulated (3)

71:12 79:9 84:1regulates (3)

6:23,23 9:15regulating (2)

6:14 38:4regulation (29)

8:3,15 12:15, 18 14:18 26:5 33:5 34:4 36:9 44:19 45:1 59:24 60:21 62:15, 16 63:1,5,8, 16,23 64:4 65:3 66:20 75:1 76:6,9, 14 82:21,22regulations (86)

2:13 3:5,10, 11,20 6:7,20 8:19,24 11:21 12:1,13 13:1, 14,20,23 17:6 18:12,17 20:7, 13 22:5,15,17, 19,22 23:4,9, 12 26:2,22

27:23 28:1 32:1 33:12,20 34:1,16 36:7, 8,19,22 37:1, 2 38:11 39:4, 7,19 40:16 41:21 42:19 43:4,18 44:11 51:7,20 54:4, 6,21,23 55:11, 12 56:11 59:9 60:11,15,23 61:2,20 62:11 63:1,6,11 73:2,14,23 74:18 76:8,17, 21 77:2 81:8 82:2,3,5,10regulatory (13)

5:17 8:21 18:19 19:19 21:5 22:2,6 44:15 52:6 70:24 83:9,15, 23Rehoboth (5)

68:8,10,23 69:2,18reinstate (1)

46:19relationship (1)

70:3relative (1) 23:18remain (1) 23:8remains (1) 25:3remarks (1) 40:14remedy (1) 75:10remember (1)

84:4remind (1) 81:24removal (3) 13:4 45:6,7remove (1) 79:24removed (1) 81:6removing (1)

40:18Renee (1) 35:16renewables (1)


(99) proposes - renewables



6:11rental (2) 30:6 67:6reopen (1) 25:15repairs (1) 37:6repeatedly (1)

17:11replace (2) 12:19 37:15replaced (1)

76:19replicated (1)

39:20report (8) 5:14 42:7,11,22 43:6,9 57:16 65:10REPRESENTATIVE (10)

32:15,17 35:12,13,14 48:16 50:15 71:8 72:5 83:13representatives (1)

32:2representative's (1)

33:3representing (1)

32:19request (4) 45:14 75:11 82:7 84:7requesting (1)

44:20requests (1) 45:6required (7) 13:3 14:11,13,21 52:5 64:11 65:23requirement (4)

45:8,10 62:17 64:16requirements (3)

9:3 61:16 82:8requires (1) 15:3requiring (1)

33:16

research (2) 43:9, 10reserve (1) 70:8reserved (1)

68:18residential (1) 8:7residents (2) 46:3 75:7resistance (1)

41:5resource (2) 9:20 32:21Resources (4) 2:5 8:16 34:21 76:7respect (5) 17:19 35:3 40:8 82:18 83:3respond (2)

10:14 39:17responsibility (1)

17:18responsible (7)

6:13 7:6 9:12 19:7 76:13,22 84:2responsive (1)

33:9restaurant (1) 47:6restaurateurs (1)

43:2restore (2) 21:15 41:3restricted (1)

68:24restricting (1)

69:17restrictions (1)

46:1result (2) 2:20 38:15resulted (1) 47:8resume (1) 17:23retire (1) 17:24retired (1) 25:5retirement (3)

54:14,17 73:12

revenue (3)

26:17 46:21 47:9review (5) 5:14 23:11 51:20 69:15 75:1reviewed (3)

68:19 69:4 82:3reviewing (5) 3:4, 10 13:9 39:4 51:21revisions (1)

27:20revoke (1) 30:4Rich (1) 56:19ridiculous (2)

30:21 31:13right (33) 11:15 13:18 14:2 15:23 16:20 20:10 21:21 29:13 35:17 38:14 39:11 48:5 49:1,7,9 51:11,12,18 54:3 57:8 58:2 59:4 62:1,17 63:14 64:12 66:14 67:3 76:15,16 80:12 83:18 84:5rights (1) 37:20risk (1) 18:1River (4) 12:22, 23 14:13 32:23rivers (1) 7:17roads (2) 31:1 80:13roll (1) 49:2rolls (1) 49:15Ron (1) 32:14rot (1) 56:16roughly (1) 61:4routinely (1) 8:22rule (1) 62:19ruled (1) 59:4

rules (5) 61:4,7 64:6,20 72:21run (1) 55:22Running (1) 33:5runoff (6) 38:4, 20,23 58:24 59:6 73:4runs (1) 68:9rural (2) 60:17 65:23

S

safety (2) 32:5,8sake (1) 36:8salaries (1) 59:15Sally (4) 22:10 28:8 30:22 33:11salute (1) 34:15Sam (3) 75:20, 22 81:5same (11) 4:22 17:16 25:20 51:16 53:6,8, 11 57:9 68:15 69:8 80:4samples (2)

47:23 51:15Samuel (1) 68:11sand (1) 69:12Sandy (1) 9:19saw (2) 20:22 36:3saying (3) 20:3 29:7 65:6say-so (1) 52:24scheduled (1)

46:12School (1) 42:17scientific (2) 18:4 42:16Scott (1) 47:16screwed (1) 81:18screws (2) 72:12, 12second (2) 43:6 68:22

SECRETARY (61)

2:1,4 12:4,10 13:6,19 14:8, 17 15:1,9,13, 16 16:18,24 18:8,16,22 19:3 20:1,5, 10 21:4,14 22:1,4,9,21 23:2,15,20 28:3,6 32:13 35:11,15 39:16 47:15 51:3,12,18 52:3 53:20,22 56:18 63:7 64:5 67:14 70:11,15,22 71:4 74:8 75:14 76:1 77:4,13,15 80:22 81:21 82:14,23sector (1) 7:24Security (1) 57:20sediment (1)

31:18seeing (3) 36:7 48:18 82:24seeking (1) 40:2seem (2) 11:1 25:8seems (5) 19:4 25:8 36:7 37:10 69:18Selbyville (1) 17:4self-serving (1)

46:7sell (4) 31:7 50:7 54:16 55:4selling (2) 38:7 60:12sells (2) 29:18 55:9Senate (1) 56:6Senator (1) 50:14send (1) 5:5


(100) rental - send



sense (10) 9:1 36:5 38:3,18, 22 39:7,14 53:6 64:10 82:18separate (1)

36:23septic (23) 7:18 8:10 11:21 13:21 14:15 18:3 29:19 36:21 39:19, 24 45:7,9 54:24 59:24 60:10 63:10, 14,16 65:12, 21 66:11 80:4, 5series (1) 75:10serious (1) 36:15served (1) 41:10Service (2) 43:8 56:10set (2) 56:3 61:19settled (1) 61:21settlement (2)

62:7 63:13seven-hour (1)

69:20several (1) 24:2severe (2) 37:4, 23sewer (1) 52:19shaky (1) 66:6share (5) 11:9 34:5 70:10 77:7,9sharing (1) 83:2shoot (1) 63:3shoreline (2)

69:24 70:4short (4) 17:3 55:10 57:22 81:15show (7) 16:10 43:10 45:15 46:14 55:21

66:13 82:20showing (1) 45:4shown (2) 41:24 45:21shows (1) 42:11shrunk (1) 57:5shut (1) 79:2side (6) 33:2,3 52:22 59:17 68:8,9Sierra (2) 74:12, 21signed (8) 2:11, 20 10:17 11:12 29:4 77:5,11 80:23significant (2)

36:4,10sign-ins (1) 11:10similar (3) 3:2 46:11 47:5simple (1) 69:11simplification (1)

40:16simplified (1)

28:14simplify (3) 17:6 28:11 54:3simply (3) 39:20 44:24 65:9sincerely (1) 59:9single (1) 66:20sit (1) 19:21site (5) 24:5,17, 18 25:9 75:2sites (4) 7:7,8, 11,22site-specific (1)

64:9sitting (2) 10:21, 22situation (4) 53:7, 9,11 67:3six (1) 72:23size (2) 8:19 18:18slow (1) 69:19slowed (1) 41:5

slower (1) 17:24slowing (1) 43:11sludge (4) 15:19 16:3,8,14SMALL (61) 2:1, 3 12:4,10 13:6,19 14:8, 17 15:1,9,13, 16 16:18,24 18:8,16,22 19:3 20:1,5, 10 21:4,14 22:1,4,9,21 23:2,15,20 28:3,6 32:13 35:11,15 39:16 45:7 51:3,12,18 52:3 53:20,22 56:12,18 67:14 70:11, 15,22 71:4 73:9 74:8 75:14 76:1 77:4,13,15 80:22 81:21 82:14,23smaller (3) 27:12, 16 69:7smoothly (1)

36:16snapshot (1) 9:22Social (1) 57:20soil (7) 47:19, 23 48:12 51:14 52:12 53:11 81:14solid (1) 6:23solve (2) 78:7 83:14somebody (8)

25:4 27:1 39:5,14 50:20 52:21 66:22 79:6somebody's (1)

75:21someone (5)

37:15 38:1 47:6 50:18 60:12sometimes (2)

59:16 64:21somewhere (3)

19:8 34:14 57:12somewheres (1)

53:2sophisticated (1)

63:20sorry (2) 16:21 75:17sort (2) 36:1 62:3source (1) 65:6sources (2) 6:15, 21speak (9) 10:18 18:11 21:24 35:8 72:4 76:4 80:24 81:1,2SPEAKER (1)

29:12speaking (1)

35:19species (2) 8:21 20:14specific (13)

12:14 18:23 19:1 20:11,16 28:9 30:17 32:10 36:14 38:12 44:18 65:4 82:2specifically (4)

12:17 28:19 41:19 66:22spend (4) 31:5 65:20,24 83:24spent (4) 50:2 58:12 69:23 81:7spoke (3) 48:17, 19 63:15sponsored (1)

57:23spray (2) 7:21 8:2square (3) 24:7, 21 25:18stabilized (1)

24:17staff (1) 10:9stand (1) 38:16standard (4)

25:18 45:7 58:3 62:19standards (5)

3:13,22 4:1,2 5:23start (13) 11:9 16:14 34:14 40:13 44:4 51:11 56:3 71:24 78:2,3, 18 79:2,17started (1) 55:10starting (2) 34:17 50:7state (40) 2:16 4:19 7:9 10:8 17:11 30:15 32:17 35:23 37:7 38:16 39:21 41:4 46:16 47:2,3, 4,7 55:20 56:1 59:23 60:20 61:14, 20,23 62:4,13 63:5,6 64:2,5 66:3,17,21 67:10,21 70:7, 23 71:7,14 74:22stated (3) 25:22 43:20 45:23statement (2)

46:6 62:16statements (1)

46:6states (7) 6:18 19:12 44:9


(101) sense - states



55:16 58:6 59:3 73:19state's (1) 6:13stating (1) 44:24stationary (1)

19:11stations (1) 72:11stay (2) 19:11 24:11stenographer (2)

10:5 11:3step (3) 10:20 27:5 39:6Stephanie (2)

74:9,10Stewardship (1)

9:2stick (3) 80:1 82:8,12still (12) 7:12 26:10,13 35:13 51:16, 20 53:3,6,8, 10 69:8 75:17stimulates (1)

43:12stocks (1) 19:16stop (1) 84:3stopped (1) 73:16store (1) 7:3stormwater (13)

9:2,4,7,9 22:13 24:23 25:10,13 27:3 31:2,18 58:24 59:8story (1) 79:12streamlined (1)

44:12streams (1) 7:18Strict (1) 42:18structures (3)

46:20 47:1,3stuck (1) 31:11studies (1) 45:20Study (4) 41:24, 24 57:23 69:16studying (1) 55:13

subaqueous (4)

5:22 29:10 46:19,21subdivision (2)

25:2,3subject (1) 8:3subjects (1) 6:4submit (2) 5:10, 11submitted (1) 5:15subscription (1)

57:17subsequent (1)

45:17Substances (1)

6:23substantiate (1)

46:5success (1) 41:4successful (1)

67:13sudden (1) 50:22suddenly (2)

65:11 73:1sued (1) 59:1sufficient (1)

44:23suggested (1)

45:4Sulfur (6) 81:6,9, 11,12,13,15Sunday (1) 79:5Superfund (1) 7:8support (4) 17:5, 19 34:20,23supporting (1)

45:11supposed (4)

22:16,20 46:6 56:14Supreme (2) 59:3 61:19sure (12) 2:22 9:17 11:4 12:10 20:1,5 33:4 46:10 56:22 64:19 68:14 72:6

surface (3) 7:17 9:6,6surfaces (1) 24:5surrounding (1)

40:24Survey (2) 45:21 65:5surveyor (1)

22:11survive (1) 37:9Sussex (18) 5:21 9:8,9 17:10, 21 35:21 41:7, 11,12,13,15 42:2 43:14,21, 23 45:5 46:2 75:7sustaining (1)

17:15SUVs (1) 71:21swiftly (1) 40:5swimmable (1)

41:3sworn (1) 32:16swung (1) 33:24system (10) 9:17 12:20,21 13:4 14:15 15:23 52:19 60:2 65:21 66:11systems (12)

7:18 8:10 13:21 14:22 16:16 18:4 37:14,18 45:7 54:24 65:12 71:24

T

talk (4) 54:5 61:15 71:1 80:3talked (1) 51:1talking (6) 11:10 18:17 33:11 39:4 48:9 72:9talks (1) 57:17

tanks (5) 18:3 71:22 72:13 80:4,5Task (1) 41:9technical (4) 26:3 33:11,14 65:16techniques (1) 4:7telling (2) 28:16 64:8ten (5) 24:12 53:9 56:11 68:13 71:14Tenth (1) 56:4terminate (1)

24:17terms (2) 38:11 58:19test (1) 52:12testimony (3)

47:13 61:9 82:5Thanks (3) 54:20, 22 55:6theater (2) 29:18, 19then-Governor's (1)

41:9thereafter (1)

62:20therefore (3) 27:2, 15 78:17thinking (1) 5:18third (2) 47:18 48:15though (6) 23:18 34:16 36:7 62:10 63:19 66:24thought (1) 83:4thoughts (2) 77:7 83:2thousand (1)

73:10thousands (3)

31:5 69:24,24threat (1) 40:4threatened (1)

17:12

three (16) 22:15 23:5 29:3 34:12,13 42:14 54:8 55:8,14 61:3 63:8 78:4,6 82:4,6,21three-year (3)

22:24 34:17 82:11throughout (1)

30:15thus (1) 43:1tidal (4) 12:22, 23 14:2,4tied (1) 38:5ties (1) 36:24tight (1) 37:3times (8) 4:8,13, 14 19:15 35:5 43:10 50:1 74:24title (3) 61:23, 24 62:14titled (1) 42:8Toccopola (1)

15:21today (4) 27:22 49:6 63:15 75:4together (4) 21:9 33:15 34:19 60:11told (6) 35:1 52:23 58:22 64:3 78:11 79:16Tom (3) 28:7,9 33:10tomorrow (1)

32:16tonight (15) 2:3,6 4:18 5:3 21:3, 24 32:12 46:11 47:17 48:23 56:21 58:9 61:10 67:18 82:5


(102) state's - tonight



took (5) 24:23 26:9 28:21,21 33:23topic (2) 2:18,19totally (2) 35:3 37:10touch (3) 3:8 6:20 9:24tough (2) 17:17 35:4tourism (1) 21:17tourism-related (1)

43:2towards (2) 3:12 57:18track (1) 74:6transcribe (1)

71:21transcript (1) 10:6transfer (3) 45:8, 9 61:16transfers (1)

61:24translate (1)

42:24transparency (1)

58:19transportation (2)

7:2 59:2trash (1) 56:13treated (2) 16:15, 16treating (1) 26:23trees (1) 27:1tremendous (1)

58:15tributaries (1)

69:10tried (1) 83:11troublesome (1)

75:5trucks (1) 78:20true (5) 11:24 37:11 41:23 52:7 79:12try (7) 4:7 10:11 19:15 33:15 34:19 83:14

84:1trying (6) 3:11 34:6 38:22 50:20 56:23 70:3Tuesday (1) 4:23turnaround (2)

4:8,13turned (1) 77:17twice (4) 12:12 14:23 15:5 60:3two (12) 8:2 14:14 15:4,21, 21 52:4 54:8, 15 55:14 61:17 69:12 75:3type (5) 9:15 18:18 19:19 60:2 69:15typically (1) 33:21

U

ultimate (1) 44:2uncontrolled (1)

43:22under (9) 12:24 27:23 39:3 51:20,24 58:15 63:2 75:1 84:7underemployment (2)

57:10,11understands (1)

66:17understood (2)

11:19 51:8unemployment (2)

57:11,14unevenness (1)

5:21unfair (1) 27:1unfortunate (1)

37:17unfortunately (1)

29:2

UNIDENTIFIED (1)

29:12unit (1) 30:6United (3) 55:16 56:7 59:3University (2)

4:19 42:17unknowns (1)

29:17unless (3) 37:11 54:23 70:17unmeasurable (1)

66:13unnecessary (2)

43:16,17unrestricted (1)

46:8unsupportable (1)

43:22up (35) 4:24 7:7 17:22 24:6 30:16 32:23 33:18 38:16 45:24 49:18 55:5 64:11,15 65:16 68:20 71:5,8 72:3, 11,12,12 73:4, 7,9,11 76:9 77:6 78:5,20 80:17,24 81:4, 18 82:20,20update (1) 13:23updated (1) 23:5upon (2) 26:8 76:8urge (2) 64:18 82:12use (7) 39:10 41:6,13 47:2, 4 79:6,14used (4) 47:10 49:13 73:14 80:10user (2) 33:10 40:16users (1) 30:6uses (1) 30:4

USGS (2) 65:1,4using (1) 60:17utilities (3) 8:1 24:4,18

V

vacant (1) 25:3vacation (1) 42:3values (2) 44:3 67:7various (1) 35:21verbatim (1) 10:7versus (2) 27:5, 16veto (1) 62:3viable (2) 41:22 42:20view (1) 70:24violate (1) 30:6Virginia (4)

42:13 58:22, 22 59:1virtually (2)

66:13 67:9visitors (1) 46:3voice (1) 48:24volume (1) 6:20volunteer (2)

34:20,23vote (2) 76:16 77:3

W

waiting (2) 4:9,14walks (1) 64:2wants (5) 27:1 37:22 52:21 75:22 79:6warrants (1)

59:20warranty (1) 15:3washed (1) 33:1waste (7) 3:18, 18 6:22,23,24, 24 7:3wastewater (5)

7:15 8:1 12:13 18:3 51:7wasting (1) 81:10watch (1) 79:3water (29) 3:18 4:12 7:14,17 11:24 14:12 17:9 35:24 38:4,13,20,21, 23,24 42:23 45:15 55:22 59:5,6,6 68:23 69:7,9, 17,20,22 72:9 80:10,15waterfront (2)

11:23,23waters (5) 9:6 14:3,4 19:11 68:10water's (1) 74:3Watershed (4)

9:2 14:5 17:14 41:1waterways (1)

69:2way (13) 2:14 25:14 26:6 30:19 43:19 62:6 63:11 64:3 66:24 68:24 73:24 80:2,16ways (3) 33:18 40:17 45:19weakening (1)

17:7Weakfish (1) 8:20web (1) 74:23website (1) 5:12weeks (2) 29:3 72:23welfare (2) 32:6,8Wells (3) 8:5,6,9west (1) 6:18western (1) 68:8wetlands (1) 5:22


(103) took - wetlands



what's (8) 15:11, 14 16:24 25:16 60:19 64:10 66:14 67:18whatsoever (1)

62:4Wheatley (3)

82:15,16,17Whereas (1) 44:6whole (9) 17:11 28:10 29:5 57:1 58:4 60:22 66:9,10 79:20who's (4) 11:22 30:5,5 58:17Wildlife (2) 8:11, 14Wilmington (1)

4:24Wilson (6) 75:20, 23 76:3 77:5 81:3,5wireless (1) 10:24wish (3) 50:9 64:22 70:1withhold (1) 29:8within (6) 11:22 12:21 14:4,11 23:4 82:6without (9) 27:7 40:1,18 43:16, 17 44:23 59:19 70:6 78:12witness (1) 41:10wooded (1) 26:23word (6) 33:6 34:5 62:2 63:22,22 77:16words (3) 51:10 53:13 60:18work (14) 8:18 19:12,14 23:11 27:17 28:1 33:16 34:19,24

36:16 42:24 70:5 80:8 83:12working (9) 11:1 21:8,11,11 35:9 70:3 72:20 83:12,24world (3) 19:5 66:17 80:13worry (1) 33:2worse (3) 57:15 81:12,20worst (2) 7:8 65:13worth (6) 54:10, 13,19 55:9 67:8 73:3wrapping (1) 71:5writing (3) 5:11 20:9 26:23written (4) 5:6,9 63:13 74:14wrong (3) 37:10 49:18 59:15

Y

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1

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2

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3

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4

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8

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9

90s (1) 9:1496 (2) 72:18 73:15


(104) what's - 96

In The Matter Of:Delaware Department of Natural Resources

and Environmental Control

In Re: Agency Regulations - Order Number 36

January 7, 2013

Wilcox & Fetzer, Ltd.

1330 King Street

Wilmington, DE 19801

email: [email protected], web: www.wilfet.com

phone: 302-655-0477, fax: 302-655-0497

Original File hrng010713dnrec.jl.txt

Min-U-Script® with Word Index

1

THE STATE OF DELAWARE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL

In Re: ) ) Public Hearing for Review of ) Agency Regulations - Executive ) Order Number 36 ) Sussex County ) )

TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC HEARING

Sussex Central High School 26026 Patriots Way Georgetown, Delaware 19947 January 7, 2013 6:12 p.m.

CONDUCTED BY: DAVID SMALL - Deputy Secretary of DNREC

WILCOX & FETZER 1330 King Street, Wilmington, Delaware 1980 (302) 655-0477 www.wilfet.com

2

1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Well, good

2 evening, and thank you all for coming out

3 tonight. My name is David Small, I'm the Deputy

4 Secretary for the Delaware Department of Natural

5 Resources and Environmental Control, and we're

6 here tonight, really, to listen to you all.

7 If you'll indulge me for a few

8 minutes, let me give you a little bit of

9 background. If you're here, you obviously know

10 a little something about the purpose for this

11 evening. In June, Governor Markell signed an

12 Executive Order directing all of the Cabinet

13 agencies to take a look at their regulations and

14 see if there was a way to reduce the burden on

15 individuals in the business community here in

16 the state of Delaware.

17 There's been a lot of interest over

18 the years in this topic. There was some

19 legislative interest in this topic last -- last

20 year. And so, as a result, the Governor signed

21 the Executive Order. It's available online.

22 I'm not sure if we have copies here with us, but

23 we can certainly get you copies if you haven't

24 been able to take a look.

3

1 So, beginning in the fall, there

2 were agencies that went through a very similar

3 process to this, and they are in the process of

4 looking at public comments and reviewing their

5 own regulations.

6 And I have to tell you, and you all

7 probably know it, DNREC certainly is a very

8 diverse agency, and we touch a lot of different

9 functions and activities. And so, we are in the

10 midst of reviewing these regulations, all of

11 these regulations ourselves. And we're trying

12 to do this with an eye towards maintaining

13 environmental standards.

14 And the reason I say that is a

15 number of our programs are delegated to us from

16 Federal agencies; notably, EPA, as you might

17 expect, in the areas of, particularly, of air,

18 waste, hazardous waste, and water. And so, in

19 order to -- excuse me -- maintain those

20 programs, we have to maintain regulations that

21 are adapted at the local level, but adopt

22 Federal standards.

23 And so, one of the things we have

24 done, and are continuing to do, is look at not

4

1 so much those standards, necessarily, but maybe

2 how we meet those standards; looking for

3 flexibility in doing that, and looking at some

4 processes.

5 And I can tell you that, you know,

6 over the years, we've engaged a number of

7 techniques to try to be more efficient in our

8 permitting process and reduce turnaround times

9 for folks that are waiting on permits. Some

10 programs have really pushed this issue and done

11 very well. In our air program, for example, and

12 some of our water programs. You know, we are

13 down to about 50 percent turnaround times and

14 waiting times from where we were a number of

15 years ago.

16 So, but this process really is

17 important to hear from you all. And we're here

18 tonight, we will be in Kent County next Monday

19 evening at Delaware State University. And we

20 can give you the details, Martin Luther King

21 Center there. And then on the 22nd of this

22 month, we will be, at the same time, 6 p.m., and

23 it's a Tuesday evening, we will be at the Carvel

24 Building in Wilmington, in the auditorium up on

5

1 the mezzanine level.

2 And beyond that, if you -- you

3 know, this process isn't closed tonight. And if

4 you think that you forgot to say something and

5 you get home, please feel free to send us

6 comments. We're accepting written comments

7 until March 1. And at that point, then, we will

8 take everything that we've gotten from our

9 public hearings, from the written comments that

10 we've received, and you can -- you can submit

11 those in writing or you can submit them

12 electronically online from our website.

13 And that, in combination with our

14 own review, we'll be developing a report, as I

15 mentioned earlier, that will be submitted to the

16 Governor, with recommended changes on a number

17 of regulatory fronts.

18 And we've been thinking about

19 those. We have -- you know, we've been looking

20 at our Coastal Zone regs, for example. We see

21 some unevenness there. In Sussex County, in the

22 wetlands and subaqueous lands permit, again, not

23 so much the standards that we have, but maybe in

24 creating some efficiencies, and maybe a little

6

1 bit more certainty in those programs.

2 So, you know, again, we're

3 interested in hearing from you on those and any

4 of a number of other subjects. Let me just

5 mention, you know, we have a diverse agency. We

6 have our Division of Energy and Climate that

7 administers regulations on our Green Energy

8 Fund, for example. This is a program that if

9 you are a Delmarva Power customer, for example,

10 you can apply for it and receive funding for

11 installation of renewables.

12 We have our Division of Air, which

13 is responsible for monitoring our state's air

14 quality and regulating any of the number of

15 sources. It's been a very aggressive and

16 effective program, and quite honestly, we think

17 we need some help from EPA to help us with some

18 of the states to the west of us, for a level

19 playing field. But that certainly is a very

20 large volume of regulations that touch a lot of

21 different sources of air emissions.

22 Our Division of Waste and Hazardous

23 Substances regulates solid waste, it regulates

24 hazardous waste. Things, if you're in the waste

7

1 hauling business, for example, you need a permit

2 from us for transportation of that material. If

3 you handle hazardous waste or if you store it or

4 if you dispose of it, for example, you need some

5 oversight from the Department.

6 We also are responsible for

7 cleaning up legacy contamination sites.

8 Superfund sites are the worst ones. Those are

9 established by EPA, and the State, since 1990,

10 has had a program to oversee the cleanup of

11 sites that aren't quite as contaminated, but

12 still need to be addressed in order to minimize

13 impacts on public health and the environment.

14 We have our Division of Water,

15 which oversees the discharge of wastewater in

16 any of a manner of functions. That could be a

17 discharge into surface water, such as rivers,

18 streams, or bays, and also, septic systems.

19 Some of you may have that on your mind this

20 evening, I know we've just gone through a

21 process recently. As well as spray irrigation,

22 there are a number of sites that are operated by

23 facilities that are operated by the County, as

24 well as municipalities and the private sector,

8

1 private wastewater utilities, that -- that

2 operate spray irrigation facilities. Those two

3 are subject to regulation oversight and

4 permitting by the agency.

5 Wells, if any of you have

6 individual wells on your property, either for

7 residential purposes or for business purposes,

8 we oversee the design, construction, and

9 installation of those wells, along -- and I

10 mentioned septic systems earlier.

11 The Division of Fish and Wildlife,

12 I don't know if any of you are anglers or

13 hunters, or otherwise interested in habitat and

14 wildlife and fisheries, but there is a body of

15 regulation, as you might well expect, that comes

16 with managing those natural resources. And you

17 know, we have advisory councils in the agency

18 that we work very closely with on development of

19 those regulations that may mean size and creel

20 limits for Weakfish and any of a number of other

21 species, but those are regulatory actions that

22 the agency takes routinely, as well.

23 Our Division of Parks has

24 regulations in place to oversee its park

9

1 activities. So, you get a sense. Division of

2 Watershed Stewardship, for example, stormwater

3 requirements. There was legislation passed in

4 1990 overseeing stormwater, getting a better

5 handle on the impacts, potentially, to our

6 ground and surface waters from surface -- from

7 stormwater. And that program's been in place,

8 in Sussex County the program is delegated to the

9 Sussex Conservation District for stormwater

10 management and oversight of plans.

11 But that division is also

12 responsible for oversight of construction on our

13 beachfront. The Beach Act passed probably back

14 in the '90s, as well, maybe a little earlier

15 than that. It regulates the type and placement

16 of construction along the beachfront to make

17 sure that we're preserving our dune system,

18 which, as we found this past fall with Hurricane

19 Sandy, is a very, very important natural

20 resource for us to manage.

21 I think that's -- you know, that's

22 just a quick, quick snapshot of all of our --

23 you know, of our divisions. We have a lot of

24 touch points with all of you. We're interested

10

1 in hearing from all of you, either -- you know,

2 in whatever format that is most comfortable for

3 you.

4 I will tell you that this evening

5 we do have a stenographer here who is providing

6 a transcript for us, so we'll be able to capture

7 your comments verbatim. And so, what I'm going

8 to do is -- and I should also state, say, we

9 have a number of staff here this evening, that,

10 you know, if we need to answer some questions,

11 we can try and do that.

12 But this is really, again, we're

13 here to listen. You know, and if we need to

14 respond we will, but we want to get your

15 feedback and your comments.

16 And so, with that, I will say that

17 I have a list of folks who have signed in and

18 indicated that they would like to speak. And

19 what I will do is ask you to come down, and

20 maybe I'll step over to this mike, because most

21 of the folks are sitting over here. But we have

22 folks sitting in the back, and what I'd ask you

23 to do, if that's okay, is to come down to the

24 front. We have some wireless mikes, but they

11

1 don't seem to be working this evening.

2 So in fairness to everybody, so

3 that everyone can hear and that our stenographer

4 can be sure to accurately record your comments,

5 I'd ask you to come down and provide some

6 feedback, if that's okay.

7 Let me just take a quick look to

8 see if there's any other notes that I need to

9 share with you before I start with our list of

10 sign-ins. I think that's enough of me talking.

11 So, I'm going to go to the list

12 that we received as people signed in. And I

13 will apologize in advance if I don't get your

14 name correct. But it looks to me like the first

15 name that I have is Carol Zander. Am I right?

16 Ms. Zander, if you could come down, please.

17 MS. ZANDER: Good evening. I was

18 hoping not to be the first, but I came this

19 evening because I understood from the radio and

20 from some things I had read that DNREC is

21 planning to impose new septic regulations on

22 anybody who's within 1000 feet of the

23 waterfront. Of any waterfront, along any body

24 of water. Can you tell me, is that true? And

12

1 what those new regulations are going to be that

2 we're going to have to deal with. I mean is it

3 as draconian as I've heard?

4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Is that

5 your -- is that it? Can I come over to the

6 mike?

7 MS. ZANDER: Yeah, can I -- can I

8 ask questions when you get finished, if

9 necessary?

10 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Sure. Let

11 me -- so, we have gone through a public hearing

12 process twice now on the proposed changes to our

13 on-site wastewater regulations. And so, the

14 public record is closed on that specific

15 regulation. We're happy to hear comments on

16 those this evening, as well.

17 I believe, specifically to your

18 question, what the regulation proposes is that

19 if you have to completely replace your existing

20 system, or if you're building -- putting in a

21 new system and you are within 1000 feet of the

22 Nanticoke River, the tidal portions, only the

23 tidal portions of the Nanticoke River or Broad

24 Creek, then under those conditions, when these

13

1 regulations would be promulgated -- and they

2 have not yet been promulgated -- then you could

3 be required to install what we're calling an

4 enhanced nutrient removal system, okay?

5 MS. ZANDER: Uh-huh.

6 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Now, I

7 will also tell you that we have gotten a large

8 body of public comment on this. We are

9 reviewing that. We've had, you know, the

10 General Assembly has expressed some opinions

11 about this, as well. So, we're taking a look at

12 that.

13 It may be that we make some further

14 changes to those regulations. And if we do,

15 there will be additional opportunity for public

16 comment, when that happens.

17 MS. ZANDER: So they're not

18 affecting us right here in this area, as of now?

19 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Well, we

20 have existing regulations in place now for --

21 that dictate the -- you know, how septic systems

22 are installed, managed, et cetera. These would

23 be an update to those regulations. But they are

24 not in effect, what we have proposed and what

14

1 you mentioned about the 1000 feet is not in

2 effect right now. It is in effect in the tidal

3 waters around the Inland Bays. But again, it's

4 1000 feet within tidal waters of the Inland Bays

5 watershed.

6 MS. ZANDER: Okay. Does that cover

7 what I -- do you want me to --

8 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Yes,

9 please.

10 MS. ZANDER: Okay. What I've heard

11 is that we would be required, if we live within

12 1000 feet of a body of water, say the Indian

13 River, okay, that we would be required to be

14 having two inspections a year at our cost for

15 our septic system. Is that one of the things

16 that, you know, I'm looking forward to?

17 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: So, what

18 the proposed regulation would do, and I'm

19 looking at Jim Cassidy. Jim is our manager in

20 our Georgetown office for the on-site branch.

21 What would be required, if you put in one of

22 those enhanced systems, then you would need

23 inspections twice a year.

24 MS. ZANDER: Oh, okay.

15

1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: And part

2 of the reason for that is that the

3 manufacturer's warranty, I believe, requires

4 inspections, at least for the first two years,

5 twice a year.

6 MS. ZANDER: Okay. So there's

7 nothing that's affecting the existing homeowners

8 at this particular time?

9 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Other than

10 our --

11 MS. ZANDER: Other than what's

12 already --


14 what's already in place.

15 MS. ZANDER: Okay. Thank you.

16 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Mr. Jim

17 Baxter. Mr. Baxter?

18 MR. BAXTER: As you probably know,

19 we take the sludge, from the last pickup to now,

20 and what I don't understand is that we have

21 two -- we have two places on Toccopola Farms

22 where you've had a -- what I call a mound

23 system. It's right on the line with us, as

24 farming. But yet, when we have to get the

16

1 permit, or the company does that we do it for,

2 we have to get a permit from you folks to put

3 the sludge on, and we have to be 30 foot from

4 the property line. I don't hardly understand

5 why.

6 And maybe you can't give me an

7 answer, either, but to me, it looks a little bit

8 asinine to be able to put a heap of sludge, no

9 medication, no nothing, onto -- next to our

10 property line. I can show it to you any time

11 you want to come out there. And I don't

12 understand why it is a 30-foot from the property

13 line, we can only -- we have to -- we can only

14 start that far away to put the sludge on. It's

15 been treated and okayed, but none of those mound

16 systems have ever been treated, as far as I

17 know. Okay?

18 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you.

19 The next name I have is Dave -- Jaeger? Is that

20 right?

21 MR. JACOBSON: Jacobs. I'm sorry.

22 Do we have another Dave Jacobs?

23 MR. JAEGER: It's Jaeger.

24 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: What's

17

1 your last name?

2 MR. JAEGER: Jaeger. J-a-e-g-e-r,

3 that's correct. I'll make this short. My name

4 is David Jaeger, and I live in Selbyville.

5 While I support the Governor's desire to

6 simplify DNREC's regulations, I am concerned

7 that this might lead to a weakening of controls

8 on the amount of pollution on our air, land, and

9 water, particularly around our Inland Bays.

10 These bays are the jewel of Sussex County, and

11 indeed, the whole state, but they are repeatedly

12 threatened by overdevelopment.

13 And one of the main protectors of

14 the Inland Bays watershed is DNREC. They are

15 charged with sustaining this prize for future

16 generations, at the same time allowing for

17 reasonable development. That's a tough job, and

18 I don't envy them this responsibility, but it's

19 one that we all must support and respect.

20 I am particularly concerned about

21 Sussex County, now that the economy is picking

22 up again and the building boom is likely to

23 resume to accommodate the baby boomers looking

24 to retire to lower slower Delaware. But the

18

1 very qualities that attract folks are at risk

2 from overdevelopment and pollution, such as

3 septic tanks and ill-conceived wastewater

4 systems. We need scientific and fact-based

5 controls that only DNREC can provide to preserve

6 this God-given gift of nature for future

7 generations. Thank you.

8 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you,

9 Mr. Jaeger. Next I have Floyd Morton.

10 MR. MORTON: Thank you for giving

11 me this time to speak. You had mentioned there

12 was actually going to be changes in regulations

13 for anglers, and that's going to be through, I

14 believe, the Delaware Bayshore Initiative

15 program?

16 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Well, I

17 think I was talking about regulations maybe in

18 size and creel limits as examples of the type of

19 diverse regulatory oversight that we're charged

20 with.

21 MR. MORTON: Okay. And --

22 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I wasn't

23 here to propose anything specific.

24 MR. MORTON: I understand. But do

19

1 you have any specific that you're going to be

2 changing?

3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I can tell

4 you this: There are, it seems to me, always

5 changes that are pending in the world of

6 fisheries management. Mostly because we are

7 responsible for maintaining compliance with

8 somewhere around 17 fishery management plans

9 that are coastwide.

10 As you well know, fish move through

11 waters. They don't just stay stationary. So we

12 have to work with other states to manage those,

13 and there are a number of agency organizations,

14 multistate organizations that work

15 collaboratively most of the times to try to

16 manage those stocks.

17 So there is the chance that over

18 the course of the coming year, that there will

19 be some type of regulatory change proposed in

20 order to maintain compliance with those, but I

21 can't sit here and cite exactly what those are.

22 MR. MORTON: I mean isn't this a

23 public comment, where we can get our comments to

24 how we feel about something?

20

1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Sure.

2 MR. MORTON: That's what I'm

3 saying, is this is open for something like that,

4 correct?


6 MR. MORTON: But you don't have any

7 kind of regulations or anything like that that

8 we can say, hey, we're for this, or you know,

9 what -- it's almost like writing a blank check.

10 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Right. So

11 you know, the more specific that your comments

12 can be -- and I'll say this to everyone -- about

13 individual regulations, if there's a particular

14 species, or -- you know, it can be open, but the

15 things that will be most helpful to us are

16 comments that are as specific as you can be.

17 That's not to say that we're not

18 here to listen to whatever you have to say, but

19 you know, I think those things will be

20 particularly constructive. So with that, would

21 you go ahead, please.

22 MR. MORTON: I saw this morning,

23 and the Delaware Bayshore Initiative was

24 actually mentioned during this. Is there

21

1 something that's actually going on with the

2 Delaware Bayshore Initiative that pertains to

3 this meeting tonight?

4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: The

5 Delaware Bayshore Initiative is not a regulatory

6 initiative. It is, really, the notion behind

7 that, very quickly, is to really bring in some

8 of, you know, non-regulatory programs working

9 more collaboratively together to conserve

10 habitat in the bayshore, protect lands, keep,

11 you know, working lands working and in private

12 hands.

13 MR. MORTON: Uh-huh.

14 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: And you

15 know, restore habitat where possible, and create

16 low impact recreational and economic development

17 opportunities through -- through tourism. As

18 you know, there are, you know, a lot of that

19 kind of activity going on along the bayshore,

20 and we would like to enhance those efforts.

21 MR. MORTON: Okay. As of right

22 now, do you have anything pending that pertains

23 to the Delaware Bayshore Initiative that you

24 could speak about tonight?

22

1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Not in a

2 regulatory context, no.

3 MR. MORTON: Okay.

4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: This

5 meeting is about regulations. The bayshore is

6 not a regulatory initiative.

7 MR. MORTON: That's all I've got.

8 Thank you.


10 I believe it's Sally Ford?

11 MS. FORD: I'm a surveyor, and I --

12 my interaction with DNREC is basically doing

13 stormwater management. And my one comment in

14 general is that I believed these hearings were

15 to discuss regulations that were in effect three

16 years ago. And yet, there were supposed to be

17 new regulations in effect as of January 1.

18 So, my comment is, why am I

19 addressing old regulations, when there's

20 supposed to be new ones?

21 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: The focus

22 of the Executive Order was on regulations that

23 had not been amended or opened, if you will, for

24 a three-year period or more.

23

1 MS. FORD: Okay.

2 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: And the

3 idea behind that being that there may be some

4 regulations that hadn't gotten attention within

5 the past three years, that needed to be updated.

6 So, that's the focus. But it's not

7 the exclusive intent of this process to

8 remain -- you know, to address only those

9 regulations. So, you know, we're looking at it

10 as an opportunity to go beyond that, if need be.

11 But I think the body of our work and review will

12 focus on those older regulations.

13 MS. FORD: Can I comment on the new

14 ones?

15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Please, go

16 ahead.

17 MS. FORD: Okay. My first comment,

18 though, concerns -- it's relative to the old and

19 to the new.

20 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Okay.

21 MS. FORD: And that's the notice of

22 intent permit that people get when they're doing

23 construction. And I know it comes down from

24 EPA, and my feedback has always been, well, EPA

24

1 makes us keep it active until the last bit of

2 construction is done. And I have several

3 projects that it affects greatly, one being a

4 commercial property where all utilities are in,

5 all surfaces are paved, site is fully graded,

6 all buildings are up except for one last

7 building, a 3000 square foot building.

8 I have as-builts and approvals for

9 everything that's been done. And yet, I have to

10 keep the NOI open, and DNREC won't issue me a

11 final because they say the NOI has to stay open.

12 Well, if this building doesn't get built for ten

13 years, there's a fee involved, there's our fee

14 for keeping us current with the -- with

15 everything.

16 And I believe it should be allowed

17 to terminate when the site is fully stabilized,

18 all approvals for utilities, site improvements,

19 are complete. And if -- when they decide to

20 build the last building, you have to get a

21 general permit just for that 3000 square foot

22 improvement, that should be acceptable. Because

23 the stormwater already took into consideration

24 that building being there.

25

1 I have -- another example would be

2 your subdivision drawings, where you have a

3 subdivision, and a lot remains vacant for 40

4 years, because somebody in their 20s bought it

5 hoping to build on it when they retired. You're

6 going to keep the developer liable with that NOI

7 for 40 years until that last house gets built?

8 That seems erroneous, or that doesn't seem fair.

9 And again, the site and the

10 stormwater management was -- that building was

11 taken into consideration, that there would be a

12 house on that lot eventually. To keep the NOI

13 open and the stormwater permit open for that

14 amount of time -- there should be a way to close

15 a permit, reopen it if you need to, with the

16 notion that we're only building what's already

17 been approved, and it's less than the 5000

18 square foot standard disturbance, where you can

19 qualify for the general permit.

20 Along the same line, another little

21 thing that really bothers me, in 2006 DNREC

22 stated everybody was going to have to pay for

23 the NOI annually, which is $195. Not a big bill

24 for the big developers, but for your littler

26

1 jobs, it can get to be a big bill.

2 And in the new regulations, they've

3 inserted that letter into the technical

4 documents, which I believe makes it now a

5 regulation, that there will be that $195 every

6 year. But it can't close out. There's no way

7 of closing out the NOI until that last lot is

8 built upon.

9 I just took for an example the NOIs

10 that were still open, and I only went back to

11 2005. And I know NOIs go back to 2001. And

12 going back to just 2005, with the amount that

13 are still open, you would be collecting $195,000

14 a year, just annually, just to keep everybody's

15 NOIs current.

16 So, I take insult to it, that it's

17 a little bit more of a revenue generator than

18 really do you need to charge that every year,

19 when we can't physically close it out because

20 you won't let us close it out.

21 A couple things in the new

22 regulations -- and I'll probably do more in

23 writing -- but they're treating wooded lots

24 different than a cleared lot. And I feel it's

27

1 unfair for somebody who wants to preserve trees,

2 and therefore, hasn't cleared their lot, to be

3 penalized now, when they go for their stormwater

4 management or they go for their general permit,

5 to have to go an additional step, versus the

6 person who cleared their lot five years ago, and

7 they can just get the general permit without

8 question.

9 The other -- the other item, too,

10 is the general permit, they were going to allow

11 based on a percentage of impervious on the lot,

12 and that discriminates against your smaller

13 lots, because you'll reach that percentage of

14 impervious a lot quicker than you will on a

15 one-acre lot. Therefore, you're penalizing the

16 smaller lots, versus the larger lots, as far as

17 the amount of work that they're going to have to

18 hire my company to do.

19 And I also feel, in general, that

20 most of what was approved in revisions back in

21 2005 or 2004, when they were done previously,

22 are just getting built today. A lot of my

23 projects are under those regulations and are

24 just getting built, so you don't even know how

28

1 they work, and they're changing the regulations.

2 So, do you have any comment?

3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I don't.

4 Thank you. I appreciate your comments.

5 MS. FORD: Okay.

6 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Oh, boy.

7 Don -- hmm. Tom?

8 MR. FORD: I think I'm after Sally.

9 Tom Ford. I have a very specific item. Number

10 one, Dave, I'd like to take issue, the whole

11 point of this meeting is to simplify permitting

12 and cost and expediate it, and during your

13 introduction, you basically said DNREC is doing

14 a great job and has simplified and expediated

15 permitting. And I've been in the field for 30

16 years, and I'm telling you, it's getting more

17 complicated every day, and it takes longer, and

18 costs more.

19 And but specifically, I -- our

20 company just got a dock rebuild and extension

21 permit. It took over a year to get it. It took

22 a lot of back and forth with DNREC.

23 I don't have a problem with that

24 process. What I do have a problem with is at

29

1 the end of the process, it's assigned personally

2 to the applicant. And unfortunately, this

3 applicant died three weeks after the permit was

4 approved and recorded, signed by Collin O'Mara,

5 the whole deal.

6 So, the estate now has to go back

7 to DNREC. And I'm not saying DNREC's going to

8 withhold that approval, but I find it -- why are

9 we allowing a 20-year lease out on our

10 subaqueous lands for a pier personally? It

11 should go with the land.

12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's

13 right.

14 MR. FORD: And DelDOT's doing that

15 to entrance permits, and DNREC is doing that.

16 And I find the banking community and development

17 community can't live with those unknowns. At

18 any point, say a movie theater sells the movie

19 theater, that DelDOT permit and any DNREC septic

20 permit, or whatever, should flow with the land.

21 Not be assigned personally. Because it marks

22 the land -- and the banking community is not

23 aware of this, and the real estate community's

24 not aware of this. And it's a big major issue.

30

1 And it needs to be fixed and

2 addressed, and you need to determine why you

3 need to do that. Because you have the power to

4 revoke that permit, from anybody who uses it.

5 No matter who's the assigneds, who's the heirs,

6 or who the rental unit of users, if they violate

7 any issue of that permit, DNREC has that in

8 there, too.

9 So why does that have to be

10 assigned personally? You know, that property's

11 going to change hands in 20 years. What

12 property doesn't? Very few. The bulk of the

13 properties exchange.

14 That needs to be fixed, and it

15 needs to be fixed throughout the State. And so,

16 I just bring that up, because it's a very

17 specific, and it's a very annoying bureaucratic

18 process that doesn't help anybody. It just gets

19 in the way. And why that estate has to come

20 back to you and ask for you to do that permit is

21 ridiculous.

22 I think what my -- Sally Ford

23 brought out about the NOI is the problem you

24 have is in a development, not all lots are built

31

1 on. You're going to build the roads, you're

2 going to put the stormwater in, you're going to

3 get them approved, you're going to do the

4 as-builts.

5 You spend hundreds of thousands of

6 dollars on some larger developments, and the

7 developer eventually is going to sell out to the

8 HOA. And the HOA isn't going to take over when

9 there's 100 percent build-out. So the HOAs,

10 ordinary citizens who don't understand this

11 process, are going to get stuck paying that NOI.

12 They're not going to understand what they have

13 to do. And it's -- it's ridiculous to go

14 beyond.

15 The land has all been developed,

16 and we're only going to go for one house at a

17 time. I mean get a general permit, get a

18 sediment erosion control, stormwater has already

19 been fixed, and let people go. Don't hold on to

20 them for 20 years. Because 20 years from now

21 you might have a bunch of comments from those

22 HOAs.

23 The general person in this

24 community doesn't understand that, and how these

32

1 regulations affect them. And these are big,

2 major issues that our representatives are going

3 to have to deal with, and you're going to have

4 to deal with some day. And I don't see the

5 benefit. Is it all about health, safety,

6 welfare of the general public? How does holding

7 onto the NOI help them? How does making a

8 permit personal help the health, safety, welfare

9 of the public?

10 These are specific issues, and I

11 know there's many others, but that's all I have

12 to say to you tonight.


14 Mr. Ford. Next I have Ron Gray.

15 REPRESENTATIVE GRAY: Good evening.

16 I'm the new -- tomorrow I will be sworn in as a

17 Representative here for the State of Delaware.

18 I'm very, very proud to be doing that, and I'll

19 be representing all of the citizens in my

20 district, and much of that is in the natural

21 resource area.

22 We have the Inland Bays, the little

23 Assawoman Bay, my area, and up to Indian River

24 Bay as well, to the inlet. I think because the

33

1 bridge washed out, I only -- I don't have to

2 worry about that on the north side, that's

3 another representative's side than me, so I want

4 to make sure that doesn't happen.

5 Running for office, regulation has

6 always been a bad word for me, really. And it's

7 what I ran on, the platform. The point I really

8 want to make is, I just feel like DNREC needs to

9 be more responsive in looking at it from the

10 perspective of the end user. Not only what Tom

11 and Sally were talking about from the technical

12 person, but regulations in general.

13 I would like to see them being more

14 of the citizens and the technical folks that are

15 putting together the plans, to let them try to

16 work with you closely, instead of requiring them

17 to do things, let them partner with you to come

18 up with even better ways to improve the

19 environment and make it a better place.

20 And I feel that the regulations

21 typically become onerous, and I think that they

22 have been put in place because a few folks in

23 our community took advantage of it, or polluted,

24 and we go -- the pendulum has swung, so that the

34

1 regulations have become very onerous in many

2 cases.

3 And I would like to see more of a

4 partnership, and not "regulation" should be a

5 bad word. We should all share with that, that

6 we're trying to protect the environment for the

7 jewel we have in our Inland Bays, and to

8 maintain that.

9 So, you're in a very difficult

10 position. On the new -- my first reaction when

11 I heard that we were looking at regs that were

12 three years old was, well, what about the ones

13 that have gone into place in the last three

14 years? But you have to start somewhere. So, I

15 salute Governor Markell for taking an effort to

16 look at the regulations, even though he's

17 starting it at the three-year point.

18 But going forward, I feel like we

19 should -- we should try to work together, and

20 let -- and build a volunteer or support base

21 that all our natural resources, we want to

22 maintain those, and make them a better place,

23 and have volunteer support, and the community in

24 general want to work with DNREC, and not have it

35

1 as being told to do things, as much.

2 So, that, in a nutshell, is really

3 what I wanted to say. So, I totally respect

4 you, Dave. I think you're in a tough position,

5 because most of the times, people are looking at

6 you as the bad guy, or DNREC as the bad guy.

7 And I think that needs to change. Thank you for

8 letting me speak for a moment, and I look

9 forward to working with you over the next couple

10 years.

11 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Thank you

12 for your comments, Representative.

13 REPRESENTATIVE GRAY: Still

14 Representative Elect.

15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Close

16 enough for me. Next I have Bob and Renee

17 Coleman. Is that right?

18 MR. COLEMAN: I'm Bob Coleman.

19 I'll be speaking for both of us, I guess. I've

20 been a property owner for close to 30 years now,

21 in various parts of Sussex County. And I guess

22 I have to say that in general, I believe that

23 the people in this state and county are very

24 concerned about water and air quality, and

36

1 they're very anxious to have those sort of

2 things improved.

3 And 20, 25 years ago, I saw a lot

4 of very significant improvements that were

5 beneficial. They made good sense. But I do

6 have to also say, over the last decade or so, it

7 seems as though the regulations we're seeing

8 come through are almost regulations for the sake

9 of making a regulation, and they're not really

10 making any significant improvement in the

11 environment. All they're doing is exerting more

12 and more control over infinitesimal limits, in

13 some cases, and a desire to control every

14 specific detail, down to the most minute thing.

15 If the Governor's really serious

16 about making these things work more smoothly and

17 having less negative impact, I think you need to

18 take a look at that, not only on existing

19 regulations, but also on these new ones that are

20 being discussed.

21 Now, as far as the new septic

22 regulations, I do have some comments on that,

23 also. I understand that was a separate issue,

24 but it really ties into this, I think, as far as

37

1 the impact of regulations on the area.

2 These new regulations, because of

3 their tight controls, especially on nitrogens, I

4 think, are going to impose a severe financial

5 hardship to anyone holding a present property

6 that may need repairs, or new property about to

7 be built. And in a time when the state and

8 county are in such desperate need of things to

9 help growth and help people survive, it just

10 seems totally wrong to be clamping down on

11 something, unless there's a true benefit to be

12 had.

13 Now, aside from the need for

14 putting in new systems, perhaps if you have to

15 replace them, there's, as someone else mentioned

16 earlier, this need for inspection costs, if you

17 happen to be unfortunate enough to need one of

18 these systems. And not just the inspection

19 costs, but along with it goes a mandate that

20 regardless of individual property rights, an

21 inspector will have free access to your property

22 any time he wants, and you cannot deny access.

23 Now to me, that is a severe overreach of the

24 government.

38

1 And someone else also pointed out,

2 the personal attachment of these permits. To

3 me, that just makes absolutely no sense at all.

4 You're regulating runoff water from a piece of

5 land. Why does it get tied to the individual?

6 That is nothing but a burdensome aspect to

7 anybody, whether they're selling, passing it on

8 to heirs, or whatever. It's a real burden.

9 And I also, as a professional

10 engineer, I have to raise a lot of questions

11 about some of these new regulations in terms of

12 their specific limits and how they're to be

13 implemented. For example, many of these water

14 control limits that are going on right now are a

15 result, I understand, of follow-on from the EPA.

16 But once in a while the State needs to stand up

17 and get a backbone and say, hey, EPA, this

18 doesn't make any sense.

19 We're now looking at nitrogen level

20 limits for runoff water that are half the

21 allowable limits of drinking water. Does that

22 make any sense to anybody? I mean we're trying

23 to put water runoff into areas that's more pure

24 than the drinking water that a lot of people

39

1 drink.

2 You know, I don't know if this

3 falls under that area that the Governor was

4 talking about in reviewing regulations, as far

5 as burdens on business, but somebody needs to

6 step back and take a look and say, is there any

7 practical sense to some of these regulations.

8 We're asking for huge expenses of

9 money here for infinitesimal amounts of

10 difference, in the nitrogen content, just to use

11 one example. And it's not even clear right now

12 whether those limits are achievable.

13 So, with that, enough said. I hope

14 somebody puts some common sense into this.

15 Thank you.


17 Mr. Coleman. Let me just respond to one point

18 that you raised on the language that's in the

19 septic regulations, and that is having to do

20 with property access. We simply replicated

21 language that's preexisting in State law. And

22 our interpretation of that, for as long as I've

23 been around, which is considerable, is that we

24 do not come onto a property for a septic

40

1 inspection without first contacting the owner

2 and seeking permission.

3 If, in the event we believe there

4 is a public health threat that demands our

5 immediate action, we can move more swiftly. But

6 I would hope that people recognize that we've

7 exercised that authority with a great deal of

8 respect over the years, and we plan to continue

9 to do that. But thank you for your comments.

10 Next I have Bill Moyer.

11 MR. MOYER: Good evening. My name

12 is Bill Moyer. I am president of the Inland

13 Bays Foundation. And let me say, before I start

14 my formal remarks, that the Inland Bays

15 Foundation has no objection to the

16 simplification, or making regulations more user

17 friendly. We think that there are ways that

18 that can be done without removing the protection

19 of the environment that they were intended for.

20 That said, let me read in my formal

21 comments. As I said, I am president of the

22 Inland Bays Foundation, which is dedicated to

23 improving the environmental condition of our

24 polluted Inland Bays and their surrounding

41

1 watershed.

2 Decades of effort by DNREC to

3 restore the bays to their once swimmable and

4 fishable state have met with some success, but

5 real progress has been slowed by resistance from

6 local organizations and improper land use

7 decisions made by Sussex County.

8 In the mid 1990s, I was a member of

9 the then-Governor's Task Force on Inland Bays,

10 and I've served as an expert witness before the

11 Sussex County Planning and Zoning Commission and

12 Sussex County Council for Development, that was

13 not in compliance with Sussex County's land use

14 plan.

15 I was born and raised in Sussex

16 County. Although the Inland Bays Foundation

17 agrees with the intent of Executive Order 36, we

18 are concerned with some of the language that it

19 contains. Specifically, the careful read of the

20 Order would lead one to believe that

21 environmental regulations are a deterrent to a

22 viable economy and to economic growth. This is

23 not true.

24 Study after study has shown that

42

1 protecting our environment creates jobs, and in

2 the case of Sussex County, ensures that people

3 will continue to live, vacation, and recreate

4 here.

5 I have four documents that I would

6 like to introduce into the record of this

7 hearing. The first is a report by the

8 Chesapeake Bay Foundation, titled "Debunking The

9 'Job Killer' Myth: How Pollution Limits

10 Encourage Jobs in the Chesapeake Bay Region."The

11 report shows that there had been a 43 percent

12 increase in the number of environmental industry

13 jobs in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia

14 over the last three decades.

15 In a ground-breaking article in The

16 Scientific American more than 20 years ago, a

17 noted Harvard University Business School

18 economist concluded that, quote, "Strict

19 environmental regulations do not inevitably

20 hinder competitive advantages against viable.

21 Indeed, they all enhance it."

22 The report concludes, quote,

23 "Clean water also will mean more fish, crabs,

24 and oysters, which translate to more work and

43

1 thus, fishermen, processors, packers,

2 restaurateurs and people in the tourism-related

3 industries. If history is any guide,

4 environmental regulations will once again

5 nourish God's creation."

6 My second document is a report

7 published on November 8, 2012, by the Public

8 News Service. It also concludes, "Here in this

9 report, document after document, research after

10 research finding, show that especially in times

11 when the economy is slowing down, environmental

12 protection stimulates that economy and creates

13 jobs."

14 There are those groups in Sussex

15 County that would have us believe that positive

16 growth means growth without unnecessary

17 government interference, and without unnecessary

18 environmental regulations. If they had their

19 way, development would occur anywhere, with

20 little oversight. As I have stated, if this

21 occurs in Sussex County, this philosophy will

22 lead to uncontrolled, unsupportable growth, and

23 a deterioration of the quality of life in Sussex

24 County.

44

1 This has happened and continues to

2 happen around the country, with the ultimate

3 decline in property values and economic

4 hardships. It's time that we start learning

5 from our past mistakes.

6 Whereas, quote, "Number 7 of

7 Executive Order 36 indicates a misunderstanding

8 of the economics of environmental protection, in

9 that it states it is the intent of this Order

10 to," quote, "reduce impediments to economic

11 growth," close quote, "caused by regulations

12 that may be reduced or streamlined."

13 The Executive Order calls for,

14 quote, "meaningful public input into the

15 regulatory reform process." I would encourage

16 DNREC to give little consideration to any

17 comments received at these public hearings that

18 do not contain specific analyses of the adverse

19 economic impact of the regulation that anyone or

20 any group is requesting to be changed or

21 limited.

22 It would be irresponsible for DNREC

23 to make any changes without sufficient data on

24 which to base its decision. Simply stating that

45

1 the regulation is bad or is not needed is

2 inadequate.

3 For example, I'm introducing a

4 document showing suggested changes by a group

5 advocating positive growth in Sussex County. It

6 requests the elimination of the nitrogen removal

7 standard for small septic systems, removal of

8 the 30-day property transfer requirement from

9 all septic permits, and the permit transfer

10 requirement for dock permits. There is

11 absolutely no supporting documentation on how

12 these changes are adversely affecting the

13 economy or are hindering growth.

14 Also, why would such a request be

15 made when water quality data clearly show that

16 the Inland Bays are overloaded with nitrogen,

17 leading to algae blooms and subsequent fish

18 kills. The nitrogen discharged into the

19 groundwater eventually finds its ways into the

20 bays, as studies by the Delaware Geological

21 Survey have shown.

22 These pro-growth organizations have

23 stated that the Inland Bays are, quote,

24 "cleaning themselves up," close quote, and that

46

1 growth with fewer restrictions will lead to a

2 better quality of life for Sussex County

3 residents and visitors.

4 Yet no facts or data has ever been

5 presented by these groups to substantiate the

6 supposed statement of fact. These statements

7 are made for self-serving interests of those

8 that benefit financially from unrestricted and

9 irresponsible growth.

10 I am sure that you will hear

11 similar claims tonight and at the other

12 scheduled hearings in Kent and New Castle

13 County. Again, I implore DNREC to consider only

14 those changes that can show a conclusive benefit

15 to the environment and to the economy of each

16 county and the state of Delaware. This is

17 clearly the intent of Executive Order 36.

18 Finally, I would ask that DNREC

19 reinstate the collection of subaqueous lands

20 fees for structures constructed on public

21 subaqueous lands that are generating revenue.

22 This was generated by House Bill 360 of the

23 General Assembly and adopted by DNREC on June

24 30, 1991. Failure to collect these fees is

47

1 allowing private parties to build structures on

2 State land, charge for the use of the

3 structures, and pay no fee to the State for the

4 use of State land.

5 This would be similar to allowing

6 someone to build a restaurant or concession in a

7 State park and not charge a fee. Failure to

8 collect these fees for many years has resulted

9 in the loss of millions of dollars in revenue

10 that could be used to offset the cost for

11 environmental protection in Delaware.

12 I am attaching a copy of this

13 document to my testimony. Thank you for the

14 opportunity to comment.

15 THE DEPUTY SECRETARY: Thank you,

16 Mr. Moyer. Next I have Scott Evans.

17 MR. EVANS: Tonight what I'm coming

18 here for is kind of like a third go around. I'm

19 here for the soil evaluation for private

20 individual lots and developments. There is a

21 five-year on there; after five years you have to

22 go back and get your lots reevaluated for your

23 soil samples.

24 I'm going through that now. We

48

1 already had it done, which I bought a

2 development, and in the meantime, while I bought

3 it, probably after a year, probably when I had

4 four years left, that at the end of that time,

5 right now, we're having to go back and get all

6 the lots done over again. So we're paying

7 double to get lots done, because of the five

8 years.

9 In talking with -- as a matter of

10 fact, Joe Duke, and some of the others, you

11 know, he was the one that said he doesn't agree

12 with it. Soil doesn't change if anything

13 doesn't move. If you have 50 years, that's one

14 thing. But five years.

15 And so, this is about my third go

16 around. The first time, Representative Hocker

17 spoke to you a while back and said something to

18 you about seeing if something could be done. In

19 the meantime, I spoke again in Dover during one

20 of these hearings that you had and I haven't

21 heard anything.

22 Now, if it's been changed, I

23 haven't heard. So that's why I'm here tonight,

24 to voice my opinion again. Because this is not

49

1 right. I mean five years. Look, I'm 63 years

2 old. Five years don't take long to roll around.

3 It's getting less all the time as I get older.

4 So you know, it needs to be --

5 something needs to be done, because now we're

6 paying -- I just got one today for you guys

7 right in the mail, that we just had done on

8 another lot. So, I mean we're paying double,

9 and that's not right. I mean nothing changes.

10 It doesn't go.

11 I think it needs to be extended out

12 a little bit longer than -- than five years,

13 because it used to be there wasn't no time. Now

14 you got five years. Five years isn't very long.

15 I mean it rolls around in a hurry.

16 I know there's probably -- there's

17 a time there -- I guess you can go back, I may

18 be wrong -- I think before the five years is up,

19 and you can get reevaluated, but I didn't -- I

20 wasn't aware of that fact.

21 I'm a builder, contractor/owner.

22 But places I've done, I've never ran into this

23 before. I had 38 lots. Now we're down, because

24 the economy is down. I mean I got 30 some lots.

50

1 You take that times 4 or $500, after you've

2 already spent it, you're doubling your money.

3 So I think something needs to be

4 reconsidered in the time limit, to extend it, or

5 at least take a little consideration. Because

6 now we're just paying double for what we paid,

7 because now we're starting to sell a few lots

8 and we're having to pay this out.

9 So, I just wish you could take into

10 consideration of extending that, making it

11 longer, or whether something -- what can be

12 done, or does legislation have to be placed in,

13 if it has to change.

14 I met with Senator Hocker, but you

15 know, can they do something? Representative

16 Gray is here. I don't know what can be done,

17 whether it be legislative, or extend it, or

18 whatever. But it's not fair, especially someone

19 to -- you know, now-a-days young folks are

20 trying to get something, some reason somebody

21 gives them something, it's been done, all of a

22 sudden now they got to pull another $400 out, 5,

23 whatever it is, to get something done.

24 So I don't know if there anything

51

1 has been done, or has it been talked about or

2 what.

3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: The issue

4 that you raise is, I think you previously

5 mentioned that you had made some comments on the

6 record for the proposal for the on-site

7 wastewater regulations. Is that what I

8 understood you to say?

9 MR. EVANS: Correct. In other

10 words, we've got to go back, and you have to

11 start right from the beginning again.

12 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Right.

13 MR. EVANS: Because it's already

14 been done -- I mean it's already done. The soil

15 samples is done. It's all -- you know, it's

16 still there. So now we got to do the same exact

17 thing they done five years ago.


19 So, nothing has changed as of yet. Those

20 regulations are still under review, we're

21 reviewing public comment, including your comment

22 about the extension of that. So, I can't

23 pre-judge the outcome of that, but we have

24 received those comments, and they're under

52

1 consideration at this point.

2 MR. EVANS: Thank you.

3 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: But I will

4 say two points, I guess. One is I don't believe

5 that legislation is required, necessarily. I

6 think this is a regulatory issue. And I would

7 also say I think it is true, and you probably

8 know more than I, that if you at any point

9 during that five-year period were to record

10 those lots, then that -- you know, you've taken

11 care of it at that point. You don't need to go

12 back and get another soil test. I believe

13 that's correct. But you may have to --

14 MR. EVANS: You are correct about

15 that. But here's my problem. The problem is

16 that that house, or whatever, once you get that

17 recorded, you have to take and put down there

18 exactly what the house is going to be, exactly

19 where the sewer system is going to be placed.

20 Now, should you get the home and

21 somebody wants their lot -- the house on the

22 other side of the lot -- which they can do

23 that -- you've already told them where they're

24 going to put the house. They have no say-so

53

1 where it may be. They may want to place it

2 somewheres else other than where you want, and

3 it's still eligible to be placed on that piece

4 of property.

5 But if you go back and think, a

6 little common sense says you still have the same

7 situation. You haven't built on it, you haven't

8 done anything. You still have the same

9 situation, whether it's been five years or ten

10 years, and you don't go back. You still have

11 the same situation. That soil hasn't changed.

12 Nothing has changed. The only thing is this

13 play on words to do something to have it

14 recorded. Because it says this is where it's

15 going.

16 So, you know, it's -- it hasn't

17 changed. Nothing has changed, I mean as far as

18 that goes. It's just all you done is put it on

19 a piece of paper to make it look good. So --




23 Next I have Larry Mayo.

24 MR. MAYO: Thank you for having

54

1 this meeting, and I would like to commend the

2 Governor for the one thing that I think he's

3 done right, which is looking to simplify some

4 regulations.

5 Let me talk to you a little bit

6 about my experience with regulations. And not

7 all of them are DNREC's, but some of them are.

8 I inherited three lots with two mobile homes on

9 them. Those mobile homes were put on in the

10 '60s and '70s. Okay? That is my net worth. I

11 make approximately $30,000 a year, and that's

12 pretty much what it takes for me to live. So I

13 decided since this was my net worth, and this

14 was going to be my retirement plan, that I would

15 take those two mobile homes, and since I'm a

16 contractor, build houses and sell the houses,

17 so -- to get myself a retirement fund.

18 Well, I inherited them in 2006. At

19 that time, that made my net worth about

20 $300,000. The lots. Thanks to banking

21 regulations, the only thing I could borrow money

22 to do was build a house. Thanks to DNREC

23 regulations, I couldn't build a house unless I

24 put new septic systems in both lots.

55

1 Well, the amount of money I could

2 borrow on my limited income would not allow for

3 that. So I converted one of them into a class C

4 in order to sell it for enough to be able to fix

5 up the other one.

6 Well, thanks to the Government

7 intrusion in the housing market, that HAS now

8 been on the market for three years, and is now

9 worth what I owe. So, even if it sells, I'll

10 just be one lot short of what I started. This

11 is how regulations hurt regular people.

12 Now, as far as EPA regulations,

13 I've been studying this document for the last

14 three years. I've taken two college courses on

15 it. There is no place in this document, which

16 is the Constitution of the United States, that

17 gives the Federal government the authority to

18 regulate my land or your land.

19 So, the EPA does not have to be

20 listened to by the State. Okay? Get them to

21 show you where in the Constitution they have the

22 authority to tell you what water can run off

23 your land. It's not in there. Believe me.

24 I'll read it over and over and over again.

56

1 To our State legislators that are

2 out here, I'd like to see you guys grow a large

3 set of cajones and start taking advantage of the

4 Tenth Amendment to the Constitution. Because

5 you guys should have more power over me than

6 President Obama and the Congress and the Senate.

7 And certainly more than the United Nations and

8 their agenda 21.

9 I thank you for your public

10 service. I hope you take this to heart. Most

11 of the regulations implemented over the last ten

12 years have done a lot to hurt the small guy.

13 You can't burn leaves, the trash company won't

14 take them. I don't know what you're supposed to

15 do with them. I just let them lay on my land

16 and rot.

17 Thank you.


19 Mr. Mayo. Next I have Rich Collins.

20 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Dave. I

21 thank the Department for being here tonight, and

22 I'm sure you understand no comments are

23 personal, certainly not from me. I'm trying to

24 get to the heart of this Executive Order 36, the

57

1 whole point of it.

2 Back in 2008, we had something

3 happen in the economy. I think most of us know

4 about it. It wasn't good. I think DNREC knows

5 about it, because I know your budget has shrunk,

6 and I believe you lost some employees due to

7 some of that, correct?

8 All right. So, people in -- out in

9 constituent land are in the same position. My

10 understanding is that underemployment, if you

11 have unemployment and underemployment, we're

12 somewhere -- these are different numbers, but

13 maybe 18, 19 percent. Very, very high rate of

14 unemployment for young people, and some forecast

15 that it could be getting much worse.

16 I have an economic report here,

17 it's actually a subscription I pay for, talks

18 about the demographic hurricane coming towards

19 us, with folks aging, and the incredible burden

20 we're going to face paying for Social Security

21 and Medicare.

22 In short, there is a Federal

23 government sponsored study that I've found, and

24 you can find any number of them, that basically

58

1 indicates we're probably looking at, if we don't

2 do exactly the right things, a declining

3 standard of living. For a long time now.

4 And so, I'm hoping that the whole

5 concept of Executive Order 36 is to realize that

6 Delaware has to compete with other states and

7 other countries. Otherwise, we're going to have

8 a decline. And as I think has been demonstrated

9 here on more than one occasion tonight, there

10 are certain things that are costing people more

11 money, in my opinion, than probably needs to be

12 spent.

13 I wanted to address the EPA real

14 quickly, before I forget. I know that you are

15 under tremendous pressure from the EPA. But I

16 go to about as many DNREC meetings as anybody

17 who's not a professional, you know, doing

18 business with you on a daily basis. I don't

19 really hear much transparency in terms of what

20 you really do have to deal with.

21 Now, I know Attorney General

22 Cuccinelli in Virginia, the EPA told Virginia

23 that they had to pay -- I think it was billions

24 of dollars, to prevent stormwater runoff. He

59

1 sued. He, through the Virginia Department of

2 Transportation and Fairfax County, I believe.

3 And the Supreme Court of the United States just

4 ruled that they were right, and that EPA had no

5 authority to regulate water flow through the

6 Clean Water Act, water runoff.

7 And so, I believe that's going to

8 go to the heart of Delaware's pending stormwater

9 regulations. I -- I sincerely hope -- I'm

10 frustrated in that when I go to a meeting that's

11 a joint meeting with EPA and DNREC, and Delaware

12 citizens, that I feel some of your employees

13 feel like they're more beholden to the EPA than

14 they are to their citizens that pay their

15 salaries. Now I hope I'm wrong on that, but

16 that's the impression I get sometimes. And I

17 just really -- I hope they're on our side first.

18 Also, let me make one comment about

19 the thing about being on property without

20 warrants. I'm the one that publicized that, as

21 much as anyone. I did do my best, every time I

22 said it, I think, to make it clear that it is

23 State law. What I see is different this time is

24 that in this new septic regulation, it's obvious

60

1 the Department is very anxious to force people

2 to have a type of system that performs so poorly

3 that it has to be inspected twice a year.

4 And I think it's obvious, based on

5 that and other things, that they expect a lot of

6 breakdowns. And I believe it's obvious that

7 they're expecting to have to take action more

8 than in the past.

9 And I would also say that I get

10 great discomfort reading those new septic

11 regulations. And in fact, I put together a

12 little paragraph describing what someone selling

13 our home would have to explain to their buyer,

14 you know, in the form of disclosure. It almost

15 looks like some aspects of those regulations are

16 designed to prevent -- or discourage freedom

17 using their rural properties.

18 And so, it's not so much the words

19 which, as you point out, are identical to what's

20 in State law. It's why are they being, for the

21 first time, put into regulation, in conjunction

22 with the whole big picture look of how these

23 regulations look?

24 Now, I think probably more

61

1 important than the particulars of a lot of

2 regulations is the process. You know,

3 businesses need three things. They need to know

4 what the rules are, they need to know roughly

5 how long it's going to take to get through the

6 process, and they have to know that if they

7 actually follow the rules, that at the end of

8 the process they probably will get the prize.

9 We've had some testimony here from

10 folks tonight making it clear that they don't

11 feel that the process is clear and defined.

12 Furthermore, there is no doubt in my mind that

13 DNREC is making some fundamental mistakes in

14 application of State law.

15 The main one, let's talk about

16 these 30-day requirements to transfer a permit.

17 I see two reasons why that's not legal. Number

18 one, there is a -- there has been a very deep

19 precedent set by the Delaware Supreme Court that

20 DNREC regulations cannot override State law.

21 And a lawsuit that was settled recently made

22 very clear that that's the case. And there is

23 an entire title of State law that has to do with

24 property transfers, I think it's Title 25, but

62

1 it's right there, whatever it is.

2 Well, there isn't one word of DNREC

3 having any sort of veto power over that process

4 whatsoever in State law. Nor, when you read

5 DNREC's operating authority, is there any hint

6 that they would have control in any way of a

7 real estate settlement process. So on that

8 basis, I'm pretty confident it's not a legal

9 thing to do.

10 The other reason, though, however,

11 is more fundamental, even. Because regulations

12 are created through something called the

13 Administrative Procedures Act. It's a State

14 law, Title 29, Chapter 101. First of all, I

15 want to read the definition of a regulation.

16 Regulation. Means "Any statement of law,

17 procedure, policy, right, requirement, or

18 prohibition formulated and promulgated by an

19 agency as a rule or standard or as a guide for

20 the decision of the cases there -- thereafter by

21 it or by any other agency, authority, or court."

22 Now, the point is, anything you do,

23 anything that affects a citizen, forces them to

24 do something in a legal manner, is defined as a

63

1 regulation. So, how do regulations get created?

2 If you look under -- bear with me. Too many

3 pages. Oh, shoot. I don't see it. Here's what

4 it says, I know what it says. You have to

5 publish the regulation in the State Register,

6 State Register of Regulations, you have to hold

7 a public hearing, and then the Secretary has to

8 formally adopt the regulation. Those three

9 things have to happen.

10 I checked the existing septic

11 regulations. I do not -- oh. And by the way,

12 this language of being 30 days prior to

13 settlement, written permission from DNREC,

14 that's being put on septic permits right now. I

15 just spoke to another gentleman today. He

16 looked at his septic regulation -- permit that

17 he just got recently. I said I'll bet you're

18 going to find that language on it. Look for it.

19 He didn't know anything about it, even though

20 the guy is pretty sophisticated.

21 He looks around and says, oh, here

22 it is. Last item. He read it, word for word.

23 That's never been approved in a regulation

24 legally.

64

1 I would go so far as to say this:

2 If a person walks into any State agency and they

3 are told we don't do it that way anymore, and if

4 they cannot point to a regulation approved by

5 their Secretary, they've broken State law.

6 Folks, you should be able to find the rules

7 before you go into any given agency, and you

8 should know -- I'm telling you, you can ask them

9 for site-specific concerns, of course, but you

10 should in a general sense know exactly what's

11 going to be required of you if you look it up,

12 and right now you don't.

13 So, I think that's really

14 fundamental. That -- I believe that also

15 applies to the boat dock that were brought up.

16 That does not have that 30-day requirement, but

17 it does make that business personal. So, I

18 would ask -- I would urge DNREC to look at these

19 things, make sure that they're following the

20 rules they have to follow.

21 Finally I'll say this: Sometimes I

22 wish DNREC would be more forthcoming with the

23 data they have available to them. A few years

24 ago I was in your office in Dover, and one of

65

1 their employees handed me a USGS publication,

2 and at the time, we happened to be engaged

3 pretty heavily in another regulation. I won't

4 get specific about it. Well, the USGS -- U.S.

5 Geological Survey made it pretty clear that what

6 DNREC had been saying was the source of the

7 pollution problem was not the problem. In fact,

8 it overwhelmingly made that case. And so, I

9 simply pointed it out to the folks involved, and

10 you could see that it was -- that report

11 suddenly became radioactive.

12 This concept that septic systems

13 are like the worst thing that can happen to

14 anything, polluting the Inland Bays, folks, in

15 my opinion, based on reading quite a few

16 technical documents, is not backed up by fact.

17 And I believe there are many other things that

18 could be done that could have far more positive

19 impact on the environment than just forcing

20 people to spend 20, 25,000. I have a quote from

21 five years ago on a septic system, 20 -- almost

22 $22,000. And I want to point out that in the

23 rural areas, many of the folks that are required

24 to spend this kind of money are some of the

66

1 folks who can least afford it.

2 And I would also say, given the

3 state of the economy and the outlook for the

4 future, the concept that DNREC is going to give

5 everybody money that can't afford it is a little

6 shaky, too. At the very time when you're laying

7 off people because you don't have enough money,

8 where did that idea come that we just find a

9 whole bunch of other money and fork it out to

10 people, just so they can put a whole bunch of

11 money into the septic system that's going to

12 break down, and that over a long period of time

13 is going to show a virtually unmeasurable

14 difference in what's being done right now?

15 So, to conclude, attitude,

16 attitude. I'm hoping that everybody in this

17 State government understands the world has

18 changed. We are either going to -- and you

19 know, this is the other discouraging thing. I'm

20 not aware of one single regulation in this

21 State -- maybe it's happened, but I don't know

22 of it -- that specifically somebody says, you

23 know what? People can't afford this anymore.

24 Let's find a cheaper way. Even though we are

67

1 all dramatically poorer.

2 I mean we had one man mention his

3 financial situation. I can tell you right now

4 the real estate that I own has declined, and I'm

5 just a homeowner. You know, I've got a house

6 and a couple rental houses. I would guarantee

7 you my property values have declined by 3 or

8 $400,000, along with my net worth. That's

9 happened to virtually everybody in Delaware.

10 So, why isn't our State government

11 approaching this problem with that mindset; that

12 we all need to pull in our belt and figure how

13 to be successful going forward. Thank you.


15 Mr. Collins. Next I have John Burton.

16 MR. NEWLIN: Thank you for calling

17 on me. I got a little different concept than

18 what's going on tonight. In fact -- I'm getting

19 to an age myself, I'm going to put my glasses

20 on. As a member of one of the boards of the

21 State of Delaware, we were notified that maybe

22 we should attend these hearings, in case

23 something comes before us that would have some

24 effect on it.

68

1 As a member of the Delaware

2 Industrial Control Board, I received

3 notification from the Governor's office

4 regarding this public hearing, and would like to

5 present the following ideals, ideas, for

6 consideration.

7 As present owner of 160 acres of

8 land on the western side of Rehoboth Bay, the

9 east side of this property runs approximately

10 2000 feet of the waters of Rehoboth Bay, known

11 as John S. and Samuel J. Burton Farm Preserve.

12 I observed the erosion problems

13 that affected the property over the last ten

14 years. I'm sure many other property owners also

15 have the same concerns. One of my main concerns

16 is the lack of funding to DNREC and the Federal

17 government on lands owned by private individuals

18 and reserved dynasties. I feel that this

19 funding program should be reviewed and be

20 brought up to date regarding the high cost

21 incurred by land owners.

22 My second concern is the flow of

23 water coming into Rehoboth Bay never being

24 restricted in any way. The dredging on many

69

1 dead-end lagoons and long prongs of the

2 waterways in Rehoboth Bay have been an

3 environmental issue, which I feel should be

4 reviewed.

5 The lack of dredging, in my

6 opinion, is causing the areas that are available

7 for the influx of the water to be much smaller,

8 and we are still receiving the same or more

9 amounts of water from the ocean and other

10 tributaries from the Delaware Bay. Example,

11 very simple. Take a 12-ounce cup of coffee, put

12 2 two ounces of sand and mud, and you're going

13 to get 10 ounces of coffee in it.

14 I believe the dredging program

15 should have some type of committee review, or we

16 should involve an environmental study of the

17 possibilities of restricting the flow of water

18 into Rehoboth Bay. It seems to me that if we

19 cut or slow 10 to 20 percent of the intake of

20 the water coming into the bay in a seven-hour

21 period, it would help to control the level of

22 the flooding of the water.

23 As a property owner, I've spent

24 thousands and thousands of dollars on shoreline

70

1 erosion control. I wish to say that I am not

2 criticizing DNREC. In fact, I have a very good

3 working relationship with the agency, in trying

4 to protect the shoreline. However, it is hard

5 to continue to do environmental work such as

6 erosion control without some assistance from the

7 State or Federal government, as a private

8 reserve owner -- preserve.

9 Thank you for the opportunity to

10 share my concerns regarding Executive Order 36.


12 Mr. Burton.

13 MR. BURTON: And I would like to

14 leave a copy with you.

15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Great.

16 Thank you. Next I have Dave Jacobs.

17 MR. JACOBSON: Unless we can

18 discuss ethanol and the gas, that kind of thing,

19 I might as well pass. Is that open for

20 discussion? We got a Federal -- we have a

21 legislator here.

22 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: You know,

23 ethanol is a Federal issue. It's not a State

24 issue, from a regulatory point of view. I'm

71

1 happy to talk with you afterwards, if that's

2 okay.

3 MR. JACOBS: Okay. Well --

4 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: Or if you

5 can -- we're almost wrapping it up, so go ahead.

6 MR. JACOBS: I'll just take a

7 minute of your time. We have a State

8 Representative, they did bring up Congress and

9 the Constitution and all of that.

10 I buy gas here in Millsboro, and

11 it's got 10 percent ethanol. And that's

12 regulated because Philadelphia has a pollution

13 problem. We're all paying through the nose

14 here. When I go to another state, like ten

15 miles away to Pittsville, Maryland, the gas

16 there has less than 10 percent ethanol. It's

17 whatever Maryland dictates. And I get like 50,

18 52 miles a gallon on my motorcycle. With

19 Delaware gas I'm getting about 48.

20 Now that's a motorcycle. So now

21 transcribe that to your SUVs, and how much

22 you're putting into your gas tanks, and et

23 cetera. It's a Federal issue, but America and

24 the Federal systems got to start with the little

72

1 individual citizen. So, I'm here.

2 The EPA has some influence. It

3 doesn't come down -- maybe it goes up from your

4 end, you speak to Federal EPA people. And

5 Mr. Representative, there it is. I may not even

6 be in your district, but I'm sure if you have a

7 constituency that lives in Delaware, they

8 probably would like to get a better performance

9 out of the car. We're talking about the water

10 and boating and fishing. I know the boats are

11 lined up at the gas stations in Maryland,

12 because the ethanol screws up the gas, screws up

13 the gas tanks in boats. So, anyone that can

14 alleviate and help these problems, that would be

15 great.

16 The other thing I noticed, what the

17 EPA, or maybe DNREC, when I moved down here in

18 '96, this place was full of chicken farms. A

19 lot of people, chicken farms, a lot of people

20 working. And they say it's the economy.

21 They came down with rules. My

22 neighbor had four chicken houses, and it was

23 bustling, every six weeks, new chickens coming

24 in, more chickens going out.

73

1 And then suddenly, what happened?

2 He said, well, they've got some new regulations,

3 I've got to put like $200,000 worth of something

4 to fix it up, because perhaps of some runoff or

5 whatever it was.

6 And they -- chicken farms have all

7 dried up. You don't have to drive very far from

8 this location here to see the chicken farms that

9 have dried up. The small farmer has -- who

10 couldn't afford a couple hundred thousand

11 dollars to fix it up, they've gone into

12 retirement, or whatever.

13 Now, I -- I'm going to say it had

14 to have been regulations, because I used to eat

15 as much in 1969 -- '96, when I came here, and I

16 don't think people have stopped eating. So,

17 where are they getting their chickens from? You

18 can go to Maryland and get chickens, or other

19 states. But I know Delaware's chicken output

20 must be a lot less.

21 And whatever the EPA, DNREC can do

22 to improve that, and maybe drop a lot of

23 regulations. Apparently some of them aren't --

24 they aren't coming out the way they were

74

1 described, to be bad for the environment. I

2 don't know. But I live next to a chicken farm.

3 My water's fine. It was fine before, it's fine

4 now. You know.

5 Thank you for your time, and I hope

6 I wasn't too far off the track. Thank you very

7 much.


9 Mr. Jacobs. Next I have Stephanie Herron.

10 MS. HERRON: My name is Stephanie

11 Herron. I'm with the Delaware chapter of the

12 Sierra Club, and we have some comments to offer,

13 but I will have some more formal comments

14 written or at a later hearing.

15 I would first like to say that we

16 completely agree and echo everything that

17 Mr. Moyer and the Inland Bay Foundation said

18 about environmental regulations not being bad

19 for jobs.

20 And I also have something to say.

21 The Delaware chapter of the Sierra Club has been

22 monitoring the DNREC and State public meeting

23 web calendars in an effort to notify our members

24 of the times and locations of the DNREC

75

1 regulation review hearings under Executive Order

2 36. We could find no notice on either site of

3 this or the following two public hearings until

4 today, January 7th, 2013. And we find it

5 extremely troublesome that such an important

6 meeting as this would be held with less than 24

7 hours notice to the residents of Sussex County

8 who are not on the DNREC mailing list, who went

9 out on the e-mail list.

10 In order to remedy this series

11 oversight, we request that the public comment

12 period be extended from March 1, 2013, as the

13 end, to April 1, 2013. Thank you.


15 Ms. Herron. Next I have Henry Glowiak as a

16 maybe. Are you a yes or are you a no,

17 Mr. Glowiak, if you're still with us? Sorry if

18 I've pronounced that -- done an injustice to

19 that. No? Not with us. Okay.

20 Sam Wilson. Okay. He may be in

21 the lobby. So, somebody's going to go see if

22 Sam wants to --

23 COUNCILMAN WILSON: How are you

24 doing?

76

1 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: How are

2 you, sir.

3 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I don't believe

4 I put my name on to speak, but I do have one

5 comment. I believe that the -- that any

6 regulation that any agency, I don't care who it

7 is, Natural Resources or DelDOT, whoever, that's

8 put regulations upon the public, the general

9 public, that this regulation, you've come up

10 with the ideas before it can be finally

11 approved, it must go to the General Assembly.

12 They are the ones who make it, and

13 they should be the ones responsible for every

14 regulation. And if they're not doing the job

15 right, the general public has to know about

16 this, and they have the right to vote them out.

17 If bureaucrats continue to make regulations, all

18 we can do is we can fuss. You can't really be

19 replaced, or neither can anyone else.

20 So, my recommendation is, let's put

21 this -- these regulations back in to the people

22 that should be responsible. Those are the

23 legislators. And let them tell you at the final

24 that it's improved or not approved.

77

1 If it's important enough to levy

2 fines and regulations, it's important enough for

3 them to vote on.


5 Councilman Wilson. The last thing I have signed

6 up, and we'll go back out and see if anybody has

7 any final thoughts that they want to share, or

8 if folks have been here and decided that they

9 would like to share something with us.

10 Mr. Cramer.

11 MR. CRAMER: I believe I'm signed

12 in.

13 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: You are.

14 MR. CRAMER: Okay.

15 DEPUTY SECRETARY SMALL: I have a

16 note that said you wanted to have the last word,

17 and it turned out you were last on the list,

18 so --

19 MR. CRAMER: Well, it didn't really

20 matter. I just didn't want to be the first one.

21 I wanted to see what the others had to say

22 first. My name is Dan Cramer. Can you actually

23 hear me, or do you need me to get closer to the

24 mike?

78

1 Well, I'll tell you what. How do

2 you not start a business? DNREC. That's how

3 you don't start a business. A couple years

4 ago -- it had to have been more than three years

5 ago, because my face got messed up, so it had to

6 be more than three years ago when I was in a

7 meeting and I said you know how you solve this

8 problem. I wanted to get into business for this

9 particular problem, and it would have helped the

10 environment.

11 But then I was told, oh, you can't

12 do that without a permit from DNREC, because it

13 has a diesel engine on it. So in order to do

14 this, in order for me to pollute the air, I had

15 to kiss DNREC. And that's one person, people,

16 or whatever, I'm not going to kiss.

17 So therefore, the business is not

18 going to start. And it would have. The machine

19 itself costs about $250,000. Another building

20 would have had to have been put up, and trucks

21 bought. Would have been about a half a million

22 dollars. And in fact, five guys would have had

23 jobs.

24 But do you think I'm going to

79

1 invest $500,000 and they're going to tell me

2 when I can start the motor, when I have to shut

3 it off? And if you don't believe so, go watch

4 the advertising in the fine print, generally on

5 a Sunday in The News Journal. And you'll see

6 where somebody wants to use a diesel engine, and

7 they'll say, oh, so many pounds of X, so many

8 pounds of Y, and so many pounds of Z is going to

9 be put out. And this is regulated, and you will

10 not be permitted to put out more.

11 And I'll tell you what actually

12 happened. This is a true story. Delaware

13 Electric put a diesel engine to their plant, to

14 their headquarters. Wanting to use it as a

15 backup when electric went off and they needed

16 more electric. They were flat-out told, don't

17 start that engine. Now, did they change

18 anything since then? Don't know. Don't really

19 care.

20 The whole thing is a bunch of crap,

21 because that little bit of pollution that I

22 wanted to put out, I would have offset it by

23 reducing the pollution of what I was going to

24 remove. But I'm not going to -- I'd rather take

80

1 that $500,000 and just stick it in a bank, get

2 that 1 percent. I'd be way ahead of the game.

3 And now that's going to talk a

4 little bit about septic tanks. These same

5 septic tanks that they want to now bring in

6 here, 15 years ago they wouldn't even approve

7 them. Why not? Because they said they didn't

8 work.

9 When the fact of the matter was, in

10 Ohio they were being used and the water was not

11 putting to the ground. It was actually put

12 right along the driveway and that, and the

13 longer roads. And I said how in the world can

14 you do that? The health department approved it.

15 That's how good the water was.

16 And by the way, all these Inland

17 Bay people here that are so hepped up, the best

18 thing you guys could do in the Inland Bays area,

19 move out of there. Because then that pollution

20 won't be there, because you're the ones

21 polluting it. Thank you.


23 Mr. Cramer. I don't have any other folks signed

24 up to speak. Is there anyone who would like to

81

1 speak who hasn't? Is there anyone who would

2 like to speak again?

3 COUNCILMAN WILSON: Me. I got one

4 comment. I don't need to come up there, but --

5 Sam Wilson. I'd like to make one quick comment.

6 Sulfur has been removed from fuel oil, diesel

7 fuel, and a lot of money's been spent, a lot of

8 regulations. At this point in time, farmers are

9 buying sulfur to put on their farms. We're just

10 actually wasting people's money to do -- or take

11 away sulfur out of fuel. And it's only got

12 worse since now we've taken sulfur out of fuel.

13 Before, we did get some natural sulfur, things

14 like that, that would come back on the soil.

15 But now we're short on sulfur.

16 So, it's just a comment. Let us

17 know what -- how some things -- the EPA has

18 screwed up a lot of things, and it's cost us a

19 lot of money, and it doesn't amount to a hill of

20 beans, and that made things worse. Thank you.


22 Mr. Moyer.

23 MR. MOYER: Again, president of the

24 Inland Bays Foundation. I would like to remind

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1 the commenters and DNREC that Executive Order 36

2 was very specific on what regulations are going

3 to be reviewed, and those are regulations that

4 are older than three years. And much of the

5 testimony tonight has been on regulations that

6 have been proposed within the last three years.

7 So, I would request that the

8 Department stick with the requirements of the

9 Executive Order, and/or get clarification as to

10 whether or not it's going to look at regulations

11 that have been adopted after that three-year

12 limit, and would urge them to stick with the

13 intent of Executive Order 36. Thank you.


15 Mr. Moyer. Mr. Wheatley.

16 MR. WHEATLEY: My name is Bob

17 Wheatley, and I would ask that you would allow

18 common sense to prevail, and respect the

19 comments of every person here who bothered to

20 give up their time to show up, whether it was a

21 regulation three years old, one year old, or a

22 regulation yet to be promulgated.


24 sir. Seeing no other hands, I wanted to take a

83

1 moment to thank all of you for coming, and

2 either sharing your thoughts or coming to

3 listen. I appreciate the respect with which you

4 delivered your comments, the thought that you've

5 provided behind those.

6 And I would just say this: I also

7 heard a number of issues that are examples that

8 people brought to the microphone. There is a

9 larger regulatory context behind most of them,

10 but if you're -- I would encourage you, if

11 you're having issues, and maybe you've tried and

12 this didn't work for you, but you know, working

13 with the agency, as Representative Gray

14 mentioned earlier, to try and solve issues and

15 navigate through some of these regulatory

16 hurdles, you know, we do a pretty good job if we

17 are given the opportunity.

18 We don't always get it right, and I

19 understand that, but I would just encourage you

20 all to reach out to the agency and let us know

21 what your challenges are. We might be able to

22 help you. Not to say that there isn't a

23 regulatory issue behind that, but you know, we

24 spend a lot of time working with constituents

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1 and the regulated community to try and both be

2 protective and responsible and reasonable.

3 So with that I will stop, and

4 again, thank you all. And remember, we have

5 additional hearings. Right now the public

6 comment period is open until March 1.

7 Ms. Herron, your request will be taken under

8 advisement.

9 So, thank you all again.

10 (Hearing concluded at 7:55 p.m.)

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1 I N D E X

2 PAGE

3 SPEAKER: Carol Zander 11

4 SPEAKER: Jim Baxter 15

5 SPEAKER: Dave Jaeger 17

6 SPEAKER: Floyd Morton 18

7 SPEAKER: Sally Ford 22

8 SPEAKER: Tom Ford 28

9 SPEAKER: Representative Ron Gray 32

10 SPEAKER: Bob Coleman 35

11 SPEAKER: Bill Moyer 40

12 SPEAKER: Scott Evans 47

13 SPEAKER: Larry Mayo 53

14 SPEAKER: Rich Collins 56

15 SPEAKER: John Burton 67

16 SPEAKER: Dave Jacobs 70

17 SPEAKER: Stephanie Herron 74

18 SPEAKER: Councilman Sam Wilson 75

19 SPEAKER: Dan Cramer 77



22 SPEAKER: Bob Wheatley 82

23 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 86

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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

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3 I, JULIANNE LaBADIA, Registered Diplomate

4 Reporter and Notary Public, do hereby certify

5 that the foregoing record, pages 1 through 85

6 inclusive, is a true and accurate transcript of

7 my stenographic notes taken on January 7, 2013,

8 in the above-captioned matter.

9 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my

10 hand and seal this 11th day of January, 2013, at

11 Wilmington.

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16 Julianne LaBadia, RDR, CRR

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