Meet the Press with Barack Obama, December 7 2008

8/14/2019 Meet the Press with Barack Obama, December 7 2008

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Meet the Press Transcript

December 7, 2008

MR. TOM BROKAW: Our issues this Sunday: In 44 days, Barack

Obama will become the 44th president of the United States. His

new team is almost complete. But since Election Day 2008, the

list of challenges facing the incoming president has only grown:

that terrorist attack in Mumbai, growing turmoil in the financial

markets, the worst unemployment in 15 years, and the autoindustry on the verge of bankruptcy. Tough problems all waiting

on the desk of our exclusive guest, the president-elect of the

United States, Barack Obama.

And yesterday in Chicago I did sit down with the president-elect,

Barack Obama, to talk about those topics and much more.

President-elect Obama, welcome back to MEET THE PRESS.

PRES.-ELECT BARACK OBAMA: Great to be here. Thank you.

MR. BROKAW: Very nice to have you with us. As we saw in the

opening, the world has gotten considerably worse since your

election. There is no evidence that it's cause and effect, you

should be happy to know. But, nonetheless, we now are officially

in a recession. It's around the world, and most analysts think it's

going to get worse before it gets better. Sixty-seven years ago



this day, one of your predecessors, Franklin Roosevelt, faced Pearl

Harbor.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right.

MR. BROKAW: What are the differences between his challenges

and the ones that you face?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, first of all, I think it's important for

us to remember that as tough as times are right now, they're

nothing compared to what my grandparents went through, what

the "greatest generation" went through. You know, at this point

you already had 25, 30 percent unemployment across the

country, and we didn't have many of the social safety nets that

emerged out of the New Deal. So there's no doubt that Franklin

Roosevelt had to re-create an entire economic structure that had

entirely collapsed, and we've got some strengths that he didn't,

he didn't have.

But, look, if you look at the unemployment numbers that came

out yesterday, if you think about almost two million jobs lost so

far, if you think about the fragility of the financial system and the

fact that it is now a global financial system, so that what happens

in Thailand or Russia can have an impact here, and obviously,

what happens on Wall Street has an impact worldwide, when you

think about the structural problems that we already had in the

economy before the financial crisis, this is a big problem and it's

going to get worse. And, and one of the things that I'm

constantly mindful of are all the people I met during the



campaign who were already struggling before things got worse.

You know, mothers and fathers who were working hard every day

but didn't have health care, couldn't figure out how to send their

kids to college. Now they're looking at pink slips, jobs being

shipped overseas that devastate entire towns. And that's why my

number one priority coming in is making sure that we've got an

economic recovery plan that is equal to the task.

MR. BROKAW: Here's what you had to say a short time ago to

the national conference of governors. It was kind of a reality

check for them to put it in some kind of a context. Let's share

that with our audience now, if we can.

(Videotape, Tuesday)

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: We're going to have to make hard

choices. Like the ones that you're making right now in your state

capitals, we're going to have to make in Washington. And we are

not, as a nation, going to be able to just keep on printing money;

so, at some point, we're also going to have to make some long-

term decisions in terms of fiscal responsibility and not all of those

choices are going to be popular.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW: On this program about a year ago, you said thatbeing a president is 90 percent circumstances and about 10

percent agenda. The circumstances now are, as you say, very

unpopular in terms of the decisions that have to be made. Which



are the most unpopular ones that the country's going to have to

deal with?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, fortunately, as tough as times are

right now--and things are going to get worse before they get

better--there is a convergence between circumstances and

agenda. The key for us is making sure that we jump-start that

economy in a way that doesn't just deal with the short term,

doesn't just create jobs immediately, but also puts us on a glide

path for long-term, sustainable economic growth. And that's why

I spoke in my radio address on Saturday about the importance of

investing in the largest infrastructure program--in roads and

bridges and, and other traditional infrastructure--since the

building of the federal highway system in the 1950s; rebuilding

our schools and making sure that they're energy efficient; making

sure that we're investing in electronic medical records and other

technologies that can drive down health care costs. All those

things are not only immediate--part of an immediate stimulus

package to the economy, but they're also down payments on the

kind of long-term, sustainable growth that we need.

MR. BROKAW: To give an indication of how quickly things change

now, at warp speed, when you and I last saw each other, six

weeks ago, I think it was, in Nashville, when I asked you your

priorities, you said health care, energy and education would be

your top three priorities.




MR. BROKAW: You didn't anticipate at that time that you would

have to outline this kind of a stimulus program. The real question

in the stimulus program that you have just described and as you

shared with, with the American audience in your radio address is

how quickly will it mean jobs out there across America and how

much is it going to cost and who's going to pay for it?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I think we can get a lot of work done

fast. When I met with the governors, all of them have projects

that are shovel ready, that are going to require us to get the

money out the door, but they've already lined up the projects and

they can make them work. And now, we're going to have to

prioritize it and do it not in the old traditional politics first wave.

What we need to do is examine what are the projects where

we're going to get the most bang for the buck, how are we going

to make sure taxpayers are protected. You know, the days of just

pork coming out of Congress as a strategy, those days are over.

How much it's going to cost? My economic team is examining

that right now. And one of the things I'm very pleased with is

how fast we've gotten a first-rate economic team in place, the

fastest in modern history. They are busy working, crunching the

numbers, looking at the macro-economic data to make a

determination as to what the size and the scope of the economic

recovery plan needs to be. But it is going to be substantial. One

last point I want to make on this is that we are inheriting an

enormous budget deficit. You know, some estimates over a trillion



dollars. That's before we do anything. And so we understand

that we've got to provide a, a, a blood infusion into the patient

right now to make sure that the patient is stabilized, and, and

that means that we, we can't worry short term about the deficit.

We've got to make sure that the economic stimulus plan is large

enough to get the economy moving.

MR. BROKAW: One of the great concerns in this country, of

course, is additional job loss, which would be considerable if the

Big Three in the auto industry in this country--GM, Ford and

Chrysler--were to go down. That drama has been playing out in

Washington and across America. Do you think the Big Three

deserve to survive?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I, I think that the Big Three U.S.

automakers have made repeated strategic mistakes. They have

not managed that industry the way they should have, and I've

been a strong critic of the auto industry's failure to adapt to

changing times--building small cars and energy efficient cars that

are going to adapt to a new market. But what I've also said is, is

that the auto industry is the backbone of American

manufacturing. It is a huge employer across many states.

Millions of people, directly or indirectly, are reliant on that

industry, and so I don't think it's an option to simply allow it to

collapse. What we have to do is to provide them with assistance,

but that assistance is conditioned on them making significant

adjustments. They're going to have to restructure, and all their



stakeholders are going to have to restructure. Labor,

management, shareholders, creditors--everybody's going to

recognize that they have--they do not have a sustainable

business model right now. And if they expect taxpayers to help in

that adjustment process, then they can't keep on putting off the

kinds of changes that they, frankly, should have made 20 or 30

years ago. If, if they want to survive, then they better start

building a fuel-efficient car. And if they want to survive, they,

they've got to recognize that the auto market is not going to be

as large as some of their rosy scenarios that they've put forward

over the last several years.

MR. BROKAW: It's pretty clear that the Democrats are going to

try to get them a bridge loan to get through the short term, but

it's the long term that is the larger question here.


MR. BROKAW: A number of people--Paul Ingrassia, as a Pulitzer

Prize-winning reporter from The Wall Street Journal has said we

ought to have a government-structured bankruptcy and maybe

even an automobile czar of some kind. One name that has come

up is Jack Welch, the former CEO of GE, the parent company of

NBC. Does that kind of plan have any appeal for you?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, there are a lot of discussions taking

place right now between members of Congress, the Bush

administration. I've had my team have conversations with these

folks to see how can you keep the automakers' feet to the fire in



making the changes that are necessary. But understand, these

aren't ordinary times. You know, some people have said let's just

send them through a bankruptcy process. Well, even as large a

company as GM, in ordinary times, might be able to go through a

Chapter 11 bankruptcy, restructure, and still keep their business

operations going. When you are seeing this kind of collapse at

the same time as you've got the financial system as shaky as, as

it is, that means that we're going to have to figure out ways to

put the pressure on the way a bankruptcy court would, demand

accountability, demand serious changes. But do so in a way that

it allows them to keep the factory doors open. And, you know,

right now there's a number of discussions about how to do that,

and I hope that we're going to see some short-term progress in

the next few days. My economic team is focused on what we

expect to inherit on January 20th, and we'll have some very

specific plans in terms of how to move that forward.

MR. BROKAW: But help me out here. Are you looking at the

possibility of some kind of a government structure that runs that

reorganization?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: I--we don't want government to run

companies. Generally, government historically hasn't done that

very well. What we want...

MR. BROKAW: Not to run the companies but...

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: But...

MR. BROKAW: ...to run the terms.



PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, what, what we do need is, if

taxpayer money is at stake, which it appears may be the case, we

want to make sure that it is conditioned on a auto industry

emerging at the end of the process that actually works, that

actually functions. The last thing I want to see happen is for the

auto industry to disappear. But I'm also concerned that we don't

put 10 or 20 or 30 or whatever billion dollars into an industry,

and then, six months to a year later, they come back hat in hand

and say, "Give me more." Taxpayers, I think, are fed up. They're

going through extraordinarily difficult times right now, and they

want to see the kind of accountability that, that, that,

unfortunately, we haven't always seen coming out of Washington.

MR. BROKAW: But under that organization or any reorganization

that you settle on...


MR. BROKAW: ...should the current management be allowed to

stay in their jobs?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Here's what I'll, I'll say, that it may not be

the same for all the, all the companies, but what I think we have

to put an end to is the head-in-the-sand approach to the auto

industry that has been prevalent for decades now. I think, in

fairness, you have seen some progress made incrementally in

many of these companies. You know, they have been building

better cars now than they were 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. They

are making some investments in the kind of green technologies



and, and the new batteries that would allow us to create plug-in

hybrids. What we haven't seen is a sense of urgency and the

willingness to make tough decisions. And what we still see are

executive compensation packages for the auto industry that are

out of line compared to their competitors, their Japanese

competitors who are doing a lot better.

Now, it's not unique to the auto industry. We have seen that

across the board. Certainly, we saw it on Wall Street. And part

of what I'm hoping to introduce as the next president is a new

ethic of responsibility where we say that, if you're laying off

workers, the least you can do, when you're making $25 million a

year, is give up some of your compensation and some of your

bonuses. Figure out ways in which workers maybe have to take a

haircut, but they can still keep their jobs, they can still keep their

health care and they can still stay in their homes. That kind of

notion of shared benefits and burdens is something that I think

has been lost for too long, and it's something that I'd like to see

restored.

MR. BROKAW: Let's talk for a moment about consumer

responsibility when it comes to the auto industry. As soon as gas

prices began to drop, consumers moved back to the larger cars

once again, to SUVs and the big gas consumers.


MR. BROKAW: Why not take this opportunity to put a tax on

gasoline, bump it back up to $4 a gallon where people were



prepared to pay for that, and use that revenue for alternative

energy and as a signal to the consumers those days are gone.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well...

MR. BROKAW: We're not going to have gasoline that you can just

fill up your tank for 20 bucks anymore.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, keep, keep in mind what's happening

in--to families all across America. Yes, gas prices have gone

down. But, in the meantime, maybe somebody in the family's

lost their job. In the meantime, their housing values have

plummeted. In the meantime, maybe their hours have been cut

back. Or if they're a small-business owner, their sales have gone

down 50, 60, 70 percent. So putting additional burdens on

American families right now, I think, is a mistake. What we have

to do long term is make sure that we have an energy strategy

that focuses on fuel-efficient cars, that focuses on providing

incentives for fuel-efficient cars. Same applies to buildings. We

have a enormously inefficient building stock, and we can save

huge amounts of energy costs and reduce our dependence on

foreign oil by simple things like weatherization and changing the

lighting in, in major buildings. That's going to be part of our

economic recovery plan. It actually allows us to spend some

money, put some people to work right away, but it also creates a

long-term, sustainable energy future. And I think making some

of those investments in ensuring that we change our auto fleet

over the next several years, that's going to be important as well.



MR. BROKAW: The other big financial storm that continues to

build out there, of course, are mortgages. You said recently that

is an area of particular concern to you. The chairman of the

Federal Reserve, Bernanke, said recently that something that--

needs to be done urgently. During the course of the campaign,

you suggested a three-month moratorium. Is that still part of the

policy that you would like to have begun when you become

president of the United States? And what else needs to be done

to do something about mortgages?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I, I'm having my team examine all

the options that are out there. I'm disappointed that we haven't

seen quicker movement on this issue by the administration. And

we have said publicly and privately that we want to see a package

that helps homeowners not just because it's good for that

particular homeowner, it's good for the community. When you

have foreclosures, property values decline and you get a

downward spiral all across America. It's also good for the

financial system because keep in mind how this financial system

became so precarious in the first place. You, you had a huge

amount of debt, a huge amount of other people's money that was

being lent, and speculation was taking place on--based on these

home mortgages. And if we can strengthen those assets, then

that will strengthen the financial system as a whole.

So I think a moratorium on foreclosures remains an important

tool, an important option. I think we also should be working to



figure out how we can get banks and homeowners to renegotiate

the terms of their mortgages so that they are sustainable. The

vast majority of people who are at threat of foreclosure are still

making monthly payments, they want to stay in their homes,

they want to stay in their communities, but the strains are

enormous. And if we can relieve some of that stress, long term

it's going to be better for the banks, it's going to be certainly

better for the community, it's going to be better for our economy

as a whole. This is going to be a top priority of my

administration.

MR. BROKAW: Have you personally conveyed your

disappointment to the administration or had your economic

advisers get in touch with Hank Paulson and say, "Why aren't you

doing more about mortgages?"

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: We, we have specifically said that, moving

forward, we have to have a housing component to any actions

that we take. If we are only dealing with Wall Street and we're

not dealing with Main Street, then we're only handling one-half of

the problem.

MR. BROKAW: And finally, what about those homeowners out

there who are struggling to do the responsible thing, to pay their

mortgages?




MR. BROKAW: And now they look across the street and the

neighbor may be getting bailed out. So they feel they're the

victim of a double whammy.


MR. BROKAW: They're paying their taxes to bail out the guy

across the street and struggling to pay their mortgages. Why

wouldn't they just take a walk on their mortgage and say, "I want

in on that"?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, look, that, that's one of the tricky

things that we've got to figure out how to structure. We don't

want what you just described, a moral hazard problem where you

have incentive to act irresponsibly. But, you know, if my

neighbor's house is on fire, even if they were smoking in the

bedroom or leaving the stove on, right now my main incentive is

to put out that fire so that it doesn't spread to my house. And I

think most people recognize that even if there were some poor

decisions made by home buyers, that right now our biggest

incentive is to make sure that the housing market is

strengthened. I do think that we have to put in place a set of

rules of the road, some financial regulations that prevent the kind

of speculation and leveraging, that we saw, in the future.

And so, as part of our economic recovery package, what you will

see coming out of my administration right at the center is a

strong set of new financial regulations in which banks, ratings

agencies, mortgage brokers, a whole bunch of folks start having



to be much more accountable and behave much more responsibly

because we can't put ourselves--we, we can't create the kind of

systemic risks that we're creating right now, particularly because

everything is so interdependent. We've got to have transparency,

openness, fair dealing in our financial markets. And that's an

area where I think, over the last eight years, we've fallen short.

MR. BROKAW: Mr. President-elect, we're going to take a break.

When we come back, we're going to talk about taxes, the fallout

from Mumbai, obviously, Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot more to talk

about when we continue here on MEET THE PRESS with this

exclusive interview with the President-elect.

(Announcements)

MR. BROKAW: More of our exclusive interview yesterday in

Chicago with President-elect Barack Obama after this brief station

break.

(Announcements)

MR. BROKAW: We're back with President-elect Obama. We want

to talk about taxes. That was a central piece of your campaign.

Here's what you had to say.

(Videotape, April 15, 2008)

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: We need to roll back the Bush-McCain tax

cuts and invest in things like health care that are really

important. Instead of giving tax breaks to the wealthy, who don't

need them and weren't even asking for them, we should be



putting a middle class tax cut into the pockets of working

families.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW: Have the economic conditions changed what you

hoped to do about taxes? When Bill Daley, your friend and

economic adviser, was on this broadcast two weeks ago, and I

raised the question about whether you would raise taxes on those

earning $250,000 or more a year, he gave a very strong

indication that you would probably not do that, you would let the

Bush tax cuts play out until 2011. Is that your plan?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, understand what my original tax plan

was. It was a net tax cut. Ninety-five percent of working families

would get tax relief. To help pay for that, people like you and me,

Tom, who make more than a quarter million dollars a year, would

play--pay slightly more. We'd essentially go back to the tax rates

that existed back in the 1990s. My economic team right now is

examining do we repeal that through legislation? Do we let it

lapse so that when the Bush tax cuts expire they're not renewed

when it comes to wealthiest Americans? And we don't yet know

what the best approach is going to be, but the overall thrust is

going to be that 95 percent of working families are going to get a

tax cut, and the wealthiest Americans, who disproportionately

benefited not only from tax cuts from the Bush administration but

also disproportionately benefited when it comes to corporate



profits and where the gains and productivity were going, they are

going to give up a little bit more. And it turns out that...

MR. BROKAW: But right away or 2011?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, as I said, my economic team's taking

a look at this right now. But, but I think the important principle--

because sometimes when we start talking about taxes and I say I

want a more balanced tax code, people think, well, you know,

that's class warfare. No. It, it turns out that our economy grows

best when the benefits of the economy are most widely spread.

And that has been true historically. And, you know, the real

aberration has been over the last 10, 15 years in which you've

seen a huge shift in terms of resources to the wealthiest and the

vast majority of Americans taking home less and less. Their

incomes, their wages have flatlined at a time that costs of

everything have gone up, and we've actually become a more

productive society.

So what we want to do is actually go back to what has been the

traditional pattern. We have a broad-based middle class,

economic growth from the bottom up. That, I think, will be the

recipe for everybody doing better over the long term.

MR. BROKAW: Your vice president, Joe Biden, said during the

course of this campaign it would be patriotic for the wealthy to

pay more in taxes. In this economy, does he still believe that?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I--you know, I think what Joe meant

is exactly what I described, which is that if, if our entire economic



policy is premised on the notion that greed is good and "What's in

it for me," it turns out that that's not good for anybody. It's not

good for the wealthy, it's not good for the poor, and it's not good

for the vast majority in the middle. If we've learned anything

from this current financial crisis--think about how this evolved.

You had a situation in which you started seeing home foreclosures

rise. You had a middle class that was vulnerable and couldn't

make payments. Suddenly, all the borrowing that had been--and,

and, and all the speculation that had been premised on those

folks doing OK, that starts evaporating. Next thing you know,

you've got Lehman Brothers going under. People used to think

that, well, there, there's no connection between those two

things. It turns out that when we all do well, then the economy,

as a whole, is going to benefit.

MR. BROKAW: I want to move now to international affairs, the

war on terror. Obviously, we have all been stunned by what

happened in India at Mumbai. It is still playing out in that part of

the world. You have said that the United States reserves the

right to go after terrorists in Pakistan if you have targets of

opportunity. Does India now also have that right of hot pursuit?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I'm not going to comment on that.

What, what I'm going to restate is a basic principle. Number one,

if a country is attacked, it has the right to defend itself. I think

that's universally acknowledged. The second thing is that we

need a strategic partnership with all the parties in the region--



Pakistan and India and the Afghan government--to stamp out the

kind of militant, violent, terrorist extremists that have set up base

camps and that are operating in ways that threaten the security

of everybody in the international community. And, as I've said

before, we can't continue to look at Afghanistan in isolation. We

have to see it as a part of a regional problem that includes

Pakistan, includes India, includes Kashmir, includes Iran. And

part of the kind of foreign policy I want to shape is one in which

we have tough, direct diplomacy combined with more effective

military operations, focused on what is the number one threat

against U.S. interests and U.S. lives. And that's al-Qaeda and,

and, and their various affiliates, and we are going to go after

them fiercely in the years to come.

MR. BROKAW: President Zardari of Pakistan has said that he

expects you to re-examine the American policy of using

unmanned missiles for attacks on terrorist camps in Pakistan; and

there have been civilian casualties in those attacks as well. Are

you re-examining that policy?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I--what I want to do is to create the

kind of effective, strategic partnership with Pakistan that allows

us, in concert, to assure that terrorists are not setting up safe

havens in some of these border regions between Pakistan and

Afghanistan. So far President Zardari has sent the right signals.

He's indicated that he recognizes this is not just a threat to the

United States, but it is a threat to Pakistan as well. There was a



bombing in Pakistan just yesterday that killed scores of people,

and so you're seeing greater and greater terrorist activity inside

of Pakistan. I think this democratically-elected government

understands that threat, and I hope that in the coming months

that we're going to be able to establish the kind of close,

effective, working relationship that makes both countries safer.

MR. BROKAW: That part of the world is such a hot zone.


MR. BROKAW: Is it going to be necessary for you to appoint

some kind of a special envoy to worry only about South Asia with

presidential authority?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, my first job is to make sure that my

core national security team--Secretary of State designee Hillary

Clinton; Jim Jones, who will be my national security adviser; Bob

Gates; Susan Rice, my U.N. representative--that my intelligence

folks, when they get appointed, that we come up with a

comprehensive strategy. I have enormous confidence in Senator

Clinton's ability to rebuild alliances and to send a strong signal

that we're going to do business differently and place an emphasis

on diplomacy.

MR. BROKAW: Let's talk for a moment about Iraq. It was aprincipal--it was one of the principals in the organization of your

campaign at the beginning. A lot of people voted for you because

they thought you would bring the war in Iraq to an end very



swiftly. Here is what you had to say on July 3rd of this year

about what you would do once you took office.

(Videotape)

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: I intend to end this war. My first day in

office I will bring the Joint Chiefs of Staff in and I will give them a

new mission, and that is to end this war responsibly, deliberately,

but decisively.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW: When does the drawdown of American troops

begin and when does it end in Iraq?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, one of my first acts as president,

once I'm sworn in, will be to bring in the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to

bring in my national security team, and design a plan for a

responsible drawdown. You are seeing a convergence. When I

began this campaign, there was a lot of controversy about theidea of starting to draw down troops. Now you've seen the--this

administration sign an agreement with the Iraqi government,

both creating a time frame for removing U.S. troops. And so

what I want to do is tell our Joint Chiefs, let's do it as quickly as

we can do to maintain stability in Iraq, maintain the safety of U.S.

troops, to provide a mechanism so that Iraq can start takingmore responsibility as a sovereign nation for it's own safety and

security, ensuring that you don't see any resurgence of terrorism

in Iraq that could threaten our interests. But recognizing that the

central front on terror, as Bob Gates said, started in Afghanistan,



in the border regions between Afghanistan and Pakistan. That's

where it will end, and that has to be our priority.

MR. BROKAW: Jim Jones, who is your new national security

adviser, the man that you want to have in that job, who was the

Marine commandant when we first went into Afghanistan, I had a

conversation with him at that time, and he said to me, "I know

how we're going to get into Afghanistan; I don't know how we're

going to get out of Afghanistan." What is he telling you today

about how we're going to get out of Afghanistan?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I think we're, we're starting to see a

consensus that we have to have more effective military action,

and that means additional troops, but it also means more

effective coordination with our NATO allies. It means that we have

to have much more effective diplomacy in the region. We can't

solve Afghanistan without solving Pakistan and working more

effectively with that country. And we are going to have to make

sure that India and Pakistan are normalizing their relationship if

we're going to be effective in some of these other areas.

And we've got to really ramp up our development approach to

Afghanistan. I mean, part of the problem that we've had is the

average Afghan farmer hasn't seen any improvement in his life.

You know, we haven't seen the kinds of infrastructure

improvements, we haven't seen the security improvements, we

haven't seen the reduction in narco trafficking, we haven't seen a

reliance on rule of law in Afghanistan that would make people feel



confident that the central government can, in fact, deliver on its

promises. And if we combine effective development, more

effective military work, as well as more effect diplomacy, then I

think that we can stabilize the situation. Our number one goal

has to be to make sure that it cannot be used as a base to launch

attacks against the United States, and we've got to get bin Laden

and we've got to get al-Qaeda.

MR. BROKAW: Here's something else that Afghan farmer has

never seen nor have any of his ancestors ever seen this: foreign

powers coming into Afghanistan and being effective and staying

very long.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Right. Well, I, I think that we do have to

be mindful of the history of Afghanistan. It is tough territory.

And there's a fierce independence in Afghanistan, and if the

perception is that we are there simply to impose ourselves in a

long-term occupation, that's not going to work in Afghanistan. By

the way, that's not going to work in Iraq either. There are very

few countries that welcome long-term occupations by foreign

powers. But Afghanistan has shown that they are fiercely

resistant to that. We're going to have to convince the Afghan

people that we're not interested in dictating what happens in

Afghanistan. What we are interested in is making sure that

Afghanistan cannot be used as a base for launching terrorist

attacks. And as long as al-Qaeda and the Taliban, working in

concert with al-Qaeda, threaten directly the United States and are



engaged in mayhem, then we've got to take action. And, and

that very limited goal of making sure that that doesn't happen, I

think, can serve as the basis for effective cooperation with the

Afghan people.

MR. BROKAW: Before we leave that part of the world, on Iraq,

there's a new phrase that has come into play called "residual

force," how many troops will stay behind in an Obama

administration. Speculation is 35,000 to 50,000. Is that a fair

number?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I'm not going to speculate on the

numbers. What I've said is that we are going to maintain a large

enough force in the region to assure that our civilian troops--or

our, our, our civilian personnel and our, our embassies are

protected, to make sure that we can ferret out any remaining

terrorist activity in the region, in cooperation with the Iraqi

government, that we are providing training and logistical support,

maintaining the integrity of Iraq as necessary. And, you know,

I--one of the things that I'll be doing is evaluating what kind of

number's required to meet those very limited goals.

MR. BROKAW: Now, two other areas that could be problematic in

your administration, I want to deal with them fairly swiftly here if

I can. What are the circumstances under which you would open a

dialogue with Iran?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, I've said before, I think we need to

ratchet up tough but direct diplomacy with Iran, making very



clear to them that their development of nuclear weapons would

be unacceptable, that their funding of terrorist organizations like

Hamas and Hezbollah, their threats against Israel are contrary to

everything that we believe in and what the international

community should accept, and present a set of carrots and sticks

in, in changing their calculus about how they want to operate.

You know, in terms of carrots, I think that we can provide

economic incentives that would be helpful to a country that,

despite being a net oil producer, is under enormous strain, huge

inflation, a lot of unemployment problems there. They could

benefit from a more open economy and, and being part of the

international economic system. But we also have to focus on the

sticks, and one of the main things that diplomacy can accomplish

is to help knit together the kind of coalition with China and India

and Russia and other countries that now do business with Iran to

agree that, in order for us to change Iran's behavior, we may

have to tighten up those sanctions. But we are willing to talk to

them directly and give them a clear choice and, and ultimately let

them make a determination in terms of whether they want to do

this the hard way or, or the easy way.

MR. BROKAW: And, briefly, how soon after you take office do you

want to meet with the leaders of Russia? And which ones do you

meet with? Your counterpart is Medvedev; but, of course, the

power behind the throne is Vladimir Putin.



PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, you know, this is something that

we're going to make a determination on. I think that it's going to

be important for us to reset U.S.-Russian relations. Russia is a

country that has made great progress economically over the last

several years. Obviously, high oil prices have helped them. They

are increasingly assertive. And when it comes to Georgia and

their threats against their neighboring countries, I think they've

been acting in a way that's contrary to international norms. We

want to cooperate with them where we can, and there are a

whole host of areas, particularly around nonproliferation of

weapons and terrorism, where we can cooperate. But we also

have to send a clear message that they have to act in ways that

are not bullying their neighbors.

MR. BROKAW: You still have some appointments to make coming

up, and there's also a good deal of consideration here in Illinois

about who will replace you in the Senate. But in New York this

weekend the big buzz is Caroline Kennedy in the United States

Senate, perhaps as the appointment to fill the seat that Hillary

Clinton is expected to vacate if she gets confirmed as secretary of

state.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: And?

MR. BROKAW: Is that a good idea?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, let me tell you this. Caroline

Kennedy has become one of my dearest friends and is just a, a

wonderful American, a wonderful person. But the last thing I



want to do is get involved in New York politics. I've got enough

trouble in terms of Illinois politics. But just in terms of our

appointments, I am very proud of the speed with which we have

started to put together our core economic team, our national

security team, but also the excellence of the candidates. And I, I

think that it's an indication of part of the change I was talking

about during the campaign, an emphasis on competence, an

emphasis on people who are nonideological and pragmatic and

just want to do business.

You know, tomorrow, you had mentioned earlier, is when we

commemorate Pearl Harbor, and so I'm going to be making

announcement tomorrow about the head of our Veterans

Administration, General Eric Shinseki, who was a commander and

has fought in Vietnam, Bosnia, is, is somebody who has achieved

the highest level of military service. He has agreed that he is

willing to be part of this administration because both he and I

share a reverence for those who serve. I grew up in Hawaii, as

he did. My grandfather is in the Punchbowl National Cemetery.

When I reflect on the sacrifices that have been made by our

veterans and I think about how so many veterans around the

country are struggling, even more than those who have not

served--higher unemployment rates, higher homeless rates,

higher substance abuse rates, medical care that is inadequate--it

breaks my heart. And I think that General Shinseki is exactly the



right person who's going to be able to make sure that we honor

our troops when they come home.

MR. BROKAW: He's the man who lost his job in the Bush

administration because he said that we would need more troops

in Iraq than Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld thought that we

would need at that time.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: He was right.

MR. BROKAW: And General Shinseki was right.

Let me ask you as we conclude this program this morning about

whether you and Michelle have had any discussions about the

impact that you're going to have on this country in other ways

besides international and domestic policies. You're going to have

a huge impact, culturally, in terms of the tone of the country.


MR. BROKAW: Who are the kinds of artists that you would like tobring to the White House?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Oh, well, you know, we have thought

about this because part of what we want to do is to open up the

White House and, and remind people this is, this is the people's

house. There is an incredible bully pulpit to be used when it

comes to, for example, education. Yes, we're going to have an

education policy. Yes, we're going to be putting more money into

school construction. But, ultimately, we want to talk about

parents reading to their kids. We want to invite kids from local



schools into the White House. When it comes to science,

elevating science once again, and having lectures in the White

House where people are talking about traveling to the stars or

breaking down atoms, inspiring our youth to get a sense of what

discovery is all about. Thinking about the diversity of our culture

and, and inviting jazz musicians and classical musicians and

poetry readings in the White House so that, once again, we

appreciate this incredible tapestry that's America. I--you know,

that, I think, is, is going to be incredibly important, particularly

because we're going through hard times. And, historically, what

has always brought us through hard times is that national

character, that sense of optimism, that willingness to look

forward, that, that sense that better days are ahead. I think that

our art and our culture, our science, you know, that's the essence

of what makes America special, and, and we want to project that

as much as possible in the White House.

MR. BROKAW: Finally, Mr. President-elect, the White House is a

no-smoking zone, and when you were asked about this recently

by Barbara Walters, I read it very carefully, you ducked. Have

you stopped smoking?

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: You know, I have, but what I said was

that, you know, there are times where I've fallen off the wagon.

Well...

MR. BROKAW: Well, wait a minute.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: ...what can I tell...



MR. BROKAW: Then that means you haven't stopped.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, the--fair enough. What I would say

is, is that I have done a terrific job under the circumstances of

making myself much healthier, and I think that you will not see

any violations of these rules in the White House.

MR. BROKAW: Mr. President-elect, thank you very much for

being with us today.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

MR. BROKAW: And I know that I speak not just for MEET THE

PRESS, but for all of America when I saw we wish you only the

very best.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: Well, Tom, thank you and congratulations

on doing such a great job on this show.

MR. BROKAW: Well, these were circumstances none of us, none

of us wanted to have, but Tim remains with us in a lot of ways, asyou know.

PRES.-ELECT OBAMA: He does.

MR. BROKAW: Thanks for being with us.

And after that discussion about the future of this country, in a

moment, the future of MEET THE PRESS.

(Announcements)

MR. BROKAW: We're back here in Washington after my exclusive

interview yesterday in Chicago with President-elect Barack

Obama. And, as you heard at the conclusion of that interview,



this is my last Sunday as the temporary moderator of MEET THE

PRESS, an assignment that I reluctantly took on last June when

we lost my pal and our dear colleague Tim Russert. But it has

been a privilege to be in this chair during this exciting and

challenging time. I first made an appearance on MEET THE

PRESS at the height of Watergate back in 1973, and so it has a

long, rich tradition that will always be a part of me. And what will

also be a part of me are all of you. I'm extremely grateful that

you have shared your Sunday mornings with MEET THE PRESS.

But now it's time for me to move on and to introduce the new

moderator of MEET THE PRESS, another great friend and a

cherished colleague, David Gregory, who is here with us this

morning.

And, David, Tim always liked to say that MEET THE PRESS was a

national treasure, the rest of us were all temporary custodians of

all that. I'm more temporary than others at this chair right now.

But I hand this assignment off to you with also one of the best

staffs I've ever worked with, led by Betsy Fisher the executive

producer.

MR. DAVID GREGORY: Well, thank you, Tom. This is an

incredible honor, and to have it come from you is also really

special because of what you've meant to me in the course of my

career here and the course of my life. I know how Betsy and the

staff and, and I feel so grateful to you for everything you've

brought to the program in such a difficult time after Tim died, and



it's really meant a lot. It's meant a lot to the country, it's meant

a lot to us to see your example. And I've watched your example

a lot. You nurtured me in this business, Tim did. And I was in a

unique place where I got to see two of the very best in journalism

up close. I've tried to learn a lot and you know, I've, I've, I've

thought a lot about what it means to success--succeed somebody

like Tim Russert. And I'm not Tim, but, along with this great

team, I can just work real hard to make him proud.

MR. BROKAW: Well, part of the deal is that you no longer can

break up Washington parties by doing your drop-dead imitation of

me. That has to be part of the contract, you understand that?

MR. GREGORY: Exactly. I got that memo very carefully.

Although when my--when I'm a little bit under the weather like I

am now, the voice is really close, so it's really so tempting to

break into it.

MR. BROKAW: Listen, I've been at this a long time, as you know,

and what I think really is very exciting for you and important to

this country is that everybody's paying attention now in a way

that I can't remember since 1968. We are in very, very difficult

times, and people want to participate in their own destiny. And

so it makes Sunday morning across all these networks, and

especially here on MEET THE PRESS, a critically important time in

American life, David.

MR. GREGORY: I think the country is in such a difficult place

right now and such a challenging place, and people are so



engaged, and we just saw it. And what an important interview

with the president-elect of the United States on Sunday morning.

In a way, on this program, uniquely, can provide insights and

answers and ask tough questions to explore the nature of

leadership in Washington and the country and the world, and to

hold leaders accountable.

You know, Tim always said to me, as you have said to me, be

respectful but ask the tough questions and think of the smart

follow-up and hold them accountable. And if you come out that

way and if you're fair, you'll, you'll be just fine in the end. And

that's what this program represents to me. It's what I've learned

from this incredible staff along the way. And, you know, it's

about preparation. What I thought you have taught me in this

role and in your role at NBC News at "Nightly News" and beyond,

and what Tim has taught me is that these are treasured platforms

with which you have to pursue with great purpose, a sense of

purpose. I want my beautiful wife, Beth, and my three children

to see me pursue my career with that sense of purpose, and it

means a lot to me.

MR. BROKAW: The other thing to remember, if I may offer this

gratuitous advice, is that this broadcast is especially important

beyond the Potomac and beyond the Hudson River in New York

City. Across the country, I have been very struck by how

important this broadcast is to people as a regular appointment for

them.



MR. GREGORY: That's right, and, and again, one of the strengths

is--of the program, is to be able to bring some of the very difficult

issues of our time to, to people in a way where they can

understand it, they can digest it, and they can make it part of

their own decision-making and opinion-making in their lives. And

a key part of that, I hope you know, is that I'm going to be

counting on you, both privately on a, on a phone call, or if I can

get out to Montana, and around this table, I'm going to need your

voice and really want your voice and your perspective.

MR. BROKAW: Well, I'll, I'll be happy to be back, but I really

encourage you to reach to your generation and get some fresh

new voices that are out there because it's a very impressive

crowd of young journalists who are coming of age.

MR. GREGORY: Right.

MR. BROKAW: David, thanks very much.

And by the way, David and I will have more of this discussion

about Washington, politics and MEET THE PRESS on our Web site

after this morning's broadcast. That Web site is mtp.msnbc.com.

David will be back here next week because, if it is Sunday, it's

MEET THE PRESS.

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Meet the Press with Barack Obama, December 7 2008

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