584 [COUNCIL.]

legislative council,Tuedayr 61A September, 1.910.

PAOSPaspresented...............W4ArMini-Reply, Presentation..............58

Obituary, goo, 0. Throseli.............584Asset to Suppbr 311.............Bill Parks ad Reserves Act Ameudmsent,2u' am

HjospitaLs. ft.............Adjanuneut. Stats oC Business.............W

The PRESIDENT took the Chair at4.311 p.m., and read prayers.

PAPERS PRESENTED.By the Colonial Secretary: 1. Report

of the Committee of the Western Austra-lian Museum and Aart Gallery, 1910. 2,Amended Salaried Staff Regulations un-der the Railways Act. 3, Report of Gov-ernment Railways to 30th June, 1910. 4,Report of the Department of Lands andTitles for the year ended 30th June, 1910.5, By-laws of the Marble Bar, Perth, Wil-unia, and West Kimberley roads board.6i, Bylaws made uinder the MetropolitanWater Supply, Sewerage, and DrainageAct, 1909, 7, Return showing mining ex-emptions granted during the year ended30th June, 1910. 8, Return under Sec-tion 109 of the Land Act, 1898, showingcertain areas resumed. 9, Statement ofexpenditure for the year ended 310th June,1910, under the provisions of the MinesDevelopment Act, 1902. 10, By-lawsmade under the Health Act, 1898, by thelocal boards of health of Boulder andYork. 11, Regulations, etc., under theLands Act, 1898. 12, Regulations madeuinder the Agricultural Lands PurchaseAct, 1900. 13, Accounts and by-lawsmade uinder the Cemeteries Act. 1897. 14,Copies of Orders in Council under Sec-tion V.3 of the Audit Act, 1904. .l,Regulations made uinder Education Act.16, By-laws made uinder the MVunicipal In-stitutions Act by the Municipality of Bits-selton. 17, The Land Act, 1808. TimberTramway Permits. IS. Public ServiceList. 1910.

A DDRESS-TN-EPLY-PRE-SENTATION.

Thi' PRESIDENT reported that liehad presented thle Address-in -Reply ti'

the Governor's openling Speech. and thatHis Excellency had been pleased to re-ceive the same and reply as follows:-

Mr. President and Honourcable Gen-tle'uen of the Legislative Courncil.-Inthe name end on behalf of His Majestythe IKing, I thank you for your Ad-dress-in-Reply to the Speech withwhich Iopened Parliament, find forthe expression of your continued loy-alty and devotion to the person andthrone of our most gracious Sovereigni.

G. Strickland, Governor.

18th Aug-ust, 1910.

OBITUARY-HON. G. THROSSELL.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon.J. D. Connolly) : Since wre last metdeath has removed from our number oneof the oldest and most respected mnembersof the House; I refer to the late Hon.George Throssell. As is pretty wellknown, the late hon. member, althoughnot exactly born in Western Australia,lived here the greater portion of his life,having arrived in the Stare when quite achild, so that Western Australia mightalmnost claim him for one of her ownsow-.. I do not think any citizen deservesbetter remembrances by his country thanthe late lion. gentleman. who has occu-pied, in what I might call his nativetown, the highest position the citizenscould offer him. Later on, at the time ofResponsible Government, he became mem-ber for that town and district in the Leg-isla tire Assembly, a position hie occupiedfor some 14 .years. Through failing,health he retired for two or three years,but when his health became in part re-stored lie again entered Parliament as amember of this House for the EastProvince. Not only wvas lie a member ofthe Houitse. but he also occupied, first thleposition of 'Minister for Lands, withgreat credit to himself, accomplishing aIvast amount of good for the country.Later on he was called upon to occupy astill highler position, namely, that ofPremier anid Treasurer. T am sure theHouse- regrets very much the SOMmVIlatmntimely' death of tile late respected mnem-ber, for. altliongli lie hand attained a ratlier

5S4

:fl,')[0; SEE'TEMBER, 1910.1

ripe age. still his deatIh came aboutthrough an unfortimate accident. I begtiv move--

That this House desires to place onrerord its appreciation of the publicsYervices rendered to the State by thelate lion. George Throssell and ex-prrsses its deepest sympathy writh hisfamily in the irreparable loss that theyhave s;ustained by his decease; that thePresident. be requested to forwcard theforegoing resolution to she relatives offlee deceased gentleman.

Hon. SIR EDWARD WITTENOOM(North) :I rise with the deepest regretto5 second thle maotion brought before theHfouse by the Colonial Secretary. Thelate lion. George Tlirossell was associ-ated with myself for many years in thegovernment of Western A ustralia. Ifound him a loyal comrade and a mostenthusiastic worker, He came into theCabinet as Minister for Lands, andbrought with himi an enthusiasm anidglow which has been an example to thewhole country: indeed I think the en-tltusiasm he showed proved infectioustlhrUlghO~tt the State and caused the largerush for land followed by" the steady de-Veltipment of thle co1untry generally.Everyone knows hlow keenlyv and closelyhie was associated with the developmentofh',Norsham. Northam for a long timeeiijoyed the lposition of being thle bestuL'rlctnral communnity iii the State, andit was the example set up there that hassince been followed, making everything soprosperoiis. Mr. Throssell was a loyalcomnrade and a, hard worker, and he wasan'xious to forward the State iii everypossible way. His energy and experiencewere of g-reat value indeed, and they willprove an irreparable loss to this Hotise.Ili- wva aii example that miighbt well befollowed by nunmbers of others. He prac-_l ically made the town of Nortliam. and*would be well if in other districtsindividuals would work with the samezeal and] ability as was shown by Mr.

SThrossell. The nearest appIWrCh to himij, T think, the Hon. F. H. piegme. whoin, the same w-ay developed Katanning;hilt T believe thle name of Mr. Thros~elstnlndt nut preeminently as that of the

man who has done the greatest amount ofwork for agriculture in Western Austra-lia. Everyone has the deepest sympathywith bis family in their great loss. I am"lpleased to support the motion submittedto the House.

lion. J. W. HACKETT (South-West) :I desire to add a word iii sup-potrt of the motion moved by the ColonialSecretary, which no doubt will be sadlyhut LUnaniously accepted by the House.I desire to express my esteem for the man,my admiration of his public qualities,and my sense of the great benefit bie hasbeen to the Slate of which he was almosta son, owing to his lengthy career in it.As a man hie was one of the most gener-ous, as at friend one of the kindest, as acitizen one of the most public-hearted. Imade his acquaintance when I came to thisState some 2,:' or 26 years ago, and I re-member calling onl him at Northam, aplace I mention because not only was itidentified with his career, buat it showswhat can fie done by one determined manof enterprise and capacity when lie isresolved to make a success of one portionof the country, T remember that at thetime Northam had not half a dozenhouses, and we mnay compare that withits present position, and on doing so willrealise to some slight extent what thanklsthle country owes to thbe lion. George'rhrossell. Unfortunately hie was afflictedby an) infirmity which would have barredmos~t men's entrance into public life, butit is a signal proof of the worth of thleman that. in spite of it, he succeeded inattaining the very highest bonours pos-sible for him to attain in the State. Evenhere we saw him fighting under diflicul-ties, and yet I would ask the House tomention anyone who was listened to morereadily, whose views were sought moreanxiously, and whose putting of anyqunest ion was more attended by new lights.and fresh ideas, than the late Mr. Thros-sell. T always moved my place inthe House to hear anything thatdropped from his lips. I shall notdetain the House any longer. TnmanY respects I was on peculiarly inti-miate termns with him, terms which I neednot refer to now, but evry~ time T came

586 [COUJNCIL.]

into association with him I left him witha higher admiration for the man, and agreater desire to see him honoured by hiscountry in the future.

Hon. R. W. PENNEFATHER(North) : I desire to say a few wordson this melancholy occasion. I, like myfriend Sir Edward Wittenoam, had theadvantage of being the colleague of thelate Hon. George Thr~ossell for three orfour years in the same 'Ministry, and din-ing that time I had many opportunitiesof obsen'ing the character of the man,the wholeheartedness with which he de-voted himself to his public duties,7 andthe singleness of purpose with which heendeavoured to advance the industries ofthe State, and particularly those of theAvon district. There are many thingsthat might be said of him. We all knowthe extremely optimistic temperament hepossessed. That temperament was quitecatching, as Dr. Hackett menitioned, foralthough he was suffering, as has beenpointed out, he always made one feel asoptimistic as he was himself. He alwaysbad a hearty handshake~and a cheerfulword for his friends. I do not knowwhether lie should be remembered moreby his public actions than by his privateones, but I know that there may beplaced to his credit unostentations andmany unrecorded acts of kindness andlove. 'The coniniunity aq a body wvill misshim much, and when the history of thecountry comes to be written I hope. andfeet sure, that the name of George Thros-sell will not be the least significant in thevolume.

Hon. V. HAMEESLEY (East) : Idesire to add a few words in support ofthe motion. I was a colleague of thelate Hon. George Throssell and, with alloilier members, deeply deplore his loss.He will be grveatly missed, especially% bythe younger members of this Chamber.who could always look with eonfidence toreceive the most kindly advice from himi.All those who came into contact with thelate Mr. Throssell could rely upon re-ceiig from him the soundest of advice.and it is well known that lie was a prac-tieal and geneiuns guide to very manyv

of his immediate neighbours; in fact, hewas a counsellor to one and all living inthe various districts in which his life wasspent, and there his loss, will be felt mostkeenly. AlL who went to him for advicebenefited by adopting it, and no one everwent to him who did not feel pleased andsatisfied with the reception accorded himand the kindness with which lie was re-ceived.

Hon. E. 11. CLARKE (South-West):I would like to add a few words in r-egardto our late friend, 'Mr. Throssell. I didnot know him as intimately as mnany othermembers of this Chamber, but at th~e sametime, from my first acquaintance withhim, I could see he was a man on whomone could rely, a man of sterling quiali.tics, a man who believed in his country,and believed particularly in the place herepresented. He was a true friend, andthis can be said of him, that lie wasalways thorough and reliable, and I havenever heard one word against him as apolitician. I venture to say that the nameof George Throssell will be vrmemberednot only. in Northam but all over WesternAustralia. He was one of those menwhom many younger men, and, in fact,many older men as well, were only tooglad to sit at the feet of and learn howto be a gentleman and a colonial,

Hon. J. W. LANUSFORD (,Metro-politan-Subiirban) : The sadness of thisoccasion is more pronounced when 'yelook at the Notice Paper for to-day andfind that the only question to be asked.is in the iname of the Hon. George Thros-sell, and that the only. motion to be sub-miffted was also to have been moved byhim. We must all deeply regret his sud-den passing. For some years f occ-upieda seat next to him in this Chamzberl, andfound he was always very grateful foranyv little assistance given during ourdebates. His contributions towards thebusiness, more particularly in regard tothe agricultural industry, were marked bywide experience, sound judgment, and aglowing optimism. 'We shall mniss hisErheering smile and kindly countenance.I support the motion.

Question passed; members standintr.

586

[6 SEPTEMBER, 1910.)53

ASSENT TO BILL.

Messae. from the Governor receivedand read, notifying assent to SupplyBill, £1,053,875.

BILL-PARKS AND RESERVESACT AMENDMENT.

Second Reading.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon.J. D). Connolly) in moving the secondrending said: This Bill is a very smallhut a very important one. Members whohave had anything to do with public parksand reserves, and, in fact, all members,'will realise the necessity to preserve themfor the purposes for which they were in-tended, and not allow them to be des-troyed by wanton persons. The variousboards of manag-ement and trustees ofparks meet with great diffieulty in tryingto Protect the parks from damage, andthis particularly applies to the King'sPark, which is the largest reserve in theState, and the trouble there is that wan-ton persons destroy the flowers and g-en-erally damage the property of the board.It is quite impossible to have a police-man always on the spot, and the ranger,as 1hle law now stands, has no authorityto take any action, or action that wouldbe of any use to debar people from un-lawful acts. Clause 2 of this Bill setsout that the ranger, and any person whomlie may call to his assistance, may takeinto custody ivithout a warrant any of-fender who, in the park or reserve wheresuch ranger has jurisdiction, and within

-the view of such ranger, acts in contra-vention of any by-la-w made under theprincipal Act, and if the name or resi-dence of suchi offender is unknown toand cannot he ascertained by such ranger.It is with reference to the latter part oftis clause that trouble has beeni expe-rienced ini the past. If a persont refusedto give his name and the ranger did notknoiv that name the offender Went uin-punished: but this Bill provides that if alpei-oii will not give his name, and hisnamne is not known to the ranger, thenfor the timie being the latter is vestedwith thle powers of a Police constable.

The measure is very necessary and onefully justified in the interests of thepublic parlih and reserves. I beg tomove-

That the Bill be now read a seconadtime.

Hlon. J. W. HACKETT (South-West) : I would merely endorse whatthe Colonial Secretary has said. TheBill is absolutely necessary. One of theobjects of the Parks and Reserves Actis that the flora of the State shall he pre-served, and the amending measure isnecessary if the flora is to be retainedin the country. King's Park suiff ers worstof all, and unless we have some powerssuch as ore contained in the Bill thetime will come, when the population in-creases, that the depredations among thewild flowers will extend to such a degreethat probably the whole place will be de-nuded. In order to have one place withinieasy reach of Perth where wild flora canbe maintained in a beautiful state ofhealth and preservation it is necessary t~oadopt some measure such as this, where-by the ranger is given the powers of apolice constable within the boundaries ofthe park. otherwise I am afraid any ofour efforts, will not he of much nse.

Hon, Sir E. H. WITTENOOM1(North) :I lire very much pleasure insupporting the second reading of thisBiLl. It seems almost impossible to un-derstand why it is necessary that a powerlike this should be asked for. When ireremember thtat the 'Government of theCountry have- provided the people witha magnificent park, lie the King's Patrk,it seems marvellous that there should hefound a mnmber of persons who takepains to destroy the property. Anyonewould think the persons using the parkwould assist in seeing that it is kept ingood order, and that people sholcd heprevented from spoiling the flora andfaunra; but as the Bill is necessary itseems that some sort of force should beused. The people should recognise thatthe property is for their use and pleasure,and for the admiration of visitors,and everyone should contribute tosee that it is kept in order and

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should prevent any spoilation. Ihope means will be taken to pre-vent this, but it seems to me t-hat ifpeople are intent on destruction weshould either have some pugilist, or some-one to defend the park, for if a personwill not give his name there would beno means of getting it. An appealshould he made to everyone to try andhelp to protect the park, and rather thanlook upon the ranger as an enemy theyshould look upon him as a friend, Isupport the second reading.

Hon. J. WV. KIRWAN (South) : Ithink every member of the House willagree wvith the intention of this Bill. Ithink, however, that a superficial glancethrough the Bill will show members thatthere are one or twvo amendments thatmay be effected that will improve it con-siderably, and I have no doubt the Col-onial Secretary will agree with sonicamendments that I would suggest,' with aview to rendering the purposes of theBill more likely to be carried out. ThisBill gives very extensive powers to parkrangers, and quite properly, so, becauseit is necessary' that they should have thefull powvers of a police constable, but Ithink that a safegutard ought to be in-dhided in thc measure to require thatpark rangers, or men in charge of parksand reserves should in some way be di-tinguished. I do not know whether theyusually wear uniforms, and I do not thinkwve ought to requtire that they holwear uniforms. as in the case of somereserves it may entail additional expense,but T think we should pnt in some safe-guard so that where rangers are exercis-ing the powers uinder the Bill they shouldhave a distinctive mark to show that theyare park rangers, and authorised. to carrynt the intentions of the Bill, and thus re-ceive the respect due to their position.

The Colonial Secretary: They mighthave a certificate from their hoard.

Hon. 4. W. KIRWANq: There is no-thing in the Bill even to requirethem to have a cTertificate from theboard. Take the case of a park ran-ger who may require to call on thepublic for assistance in connection witlisomic offence. A1 member of the pub-

lie who inay he so called on may hesitateand doubt whether the ranger has the as-Cessary power. I think the case wouldbe met by an amendment which I willsuggest; 1 do not know exactly whetherthis wvould be the proper wording. Afterthe interpretation Of the word "ranger"in Clause 6 an addition might he madeby the words, "and when exercising thepowers conferred on hini by this Art heshouild wvear a distinctive badge or uni-form indicating that hie is a ranger." Ithink that would be rathier an iniprove-nieiit, because a stranger passing througha park may see a stnggle gwing on be-tweetn two men; one mian may call outasking for assistance and the str-angermay not know who is the park ranger;both may sany they are park rangers. Theleast we should requite of macti to whomwve give suich extensive po'wers is thatthey should wear a distinctive mark.They ought to have some distinctionto indicate to the public who theyare, and that they are authtorisedto set as rangers amid cartry outthe p)owuers conferred oin thema by theBill. There is also another matter whichhas occurred to me. In cotitection withClaiise 4 1 think at slight improvementmight be effected: it is this: the powersof the rangers are strictly confined with-in the limnits of the parks in- reserve, ofwhich they are raugers, and an offencemight be committed in a pam-n or reserveby boys. or a serions offeiire might beVommiitted in a park or reserve, and T amtiot suire, p~erhmaps some legal gentlemnanwill explain if it iA so, hut I gather thatin the event of the offender running- awayand leaving the pamk-it often happensin the case -with boys-the ranger wouldnot hare the power to follow thme itidi-vidual outside the limits of the park, hewould not he able to go one inch. hispowers would cease the very tmoment hewvent Outside the limits of the park.

Hon. D. CT. Gawler: Under Clauice 2t think he would have power.

Honi. J. W. KIRWAN: Clause 2

(1.) Atm;-v rantger. am114 any lvnersonwhom hie may call to hlis assistance,niny take into custody, wvithout a war-

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[6i SEFE~a , 1910.] 9

rant, aity offender who in the park orreser'e where such ranger has juiris-diction, and within the view of suchranger, acts in contravention of anyby-law node under the principal Act,if thre lame or residence of such offen-tier is unknown to and cannot he as-eerlaine#1 by such ranger.

(2.) If any such offender, when re-quired hy any ranger or by any policeofficer to give his name and address,gives a false name or false address, heshall lie liable on conviction to a pen-alty lnot exceeding five pounds.

I take it that the words "within the viewof such raniger" would be interpreted tomean that the offence must be committedwithin the view of such ranger. However,if Mr. Gawler, or any other legal gentle-man, expresses an opinion to the con-trary, I am sure the House would morereadily take the view of a legal memberthan of a lay member. That is a pointthat struck me on reading the Bill. If aranger has not the power to pursue of-fenders it might be made plain by aslight addition to C'lease 4. The matterwould be moved quite outside the limitsof controversy if after "rangers" weadded the words, " and while the offenderin such park or reserve remains in viewof such ranger." That would allowv aranger to pursue an offender, and capturehim if lpossible, so long as that offenderdid not cease to remain within sight ofthe ranger. I think these suggestionswould render the Bill somewhat moreeffective.

Hon. R. W. PENNEPATHER(North): The clause I wish to directattention to is Clause 2 that the ColonialSecretary emphasised. It is a very de-batable one, too. According to thatclause a ranger may take into custody aman who is not known to him, and whomay yet have given his proper name andaddress, but he may not take into cus-tody a mair who is known to him. Thatis very hard. The Bill says-

Any ranger, and any person whomhe may' call to his assistance, may takeinto custody, without a warrant, anyoffeuder who in the park or reservewhere such ranger has jurisdiction, andwithin the view of such ranger, acts in

celntriverltion of any by-law made tini-der the principal Act, if the name orresidence of such offender is unknownto and cannot be ascertained by suchranger.

If so, a perfect stranger would have tobe taken into custody, if the name orresidence of such offender is unknown tothe ranger. There is evidently a diffi-culty there. In order to ascertain whetherthe correct address has been given itwvould take time; in the meantime theranger would have the person in custody.

Hon. Sir E. H. Wittenooin: It meansif lie knows the man hie can summons him;if lie does not he arrests him.

Bon. R. W. PENNEFATHER: Thatis very hard, it is making fish of one andflesh of the other. As regards the pointraised by Mr. Kirwvan it seems to me thathis contention is sound. I do not thinkthe park rang-er has aulliority' to arrestanyone outside the park, and if there isany doubt, that doubt is dispelled by thelast part of Clause 4 which says-

And be liable to all such duties andresponsibilities as any police constablehas within the police district in whichthe park or reserve is situated.

Hon. W. KINGSMILL (Metropoli-tan): I have mutch pleasure in support-ing the Hill. In the opinion of the Colo-nial Secretary will this measure apply tothe Zoological Gardens?

Hon. J. W. Kirwan: It is a reserve.Hon. W. KINGSMILL: The wording

of the Zoological Gardens Act is some-what ambiguous. I think the Act in-tended to make the Zoological Gardensa park or reserve, but I do not think theAct has done so; all it has done is to con-fer on die Acclimiatisation Cowtnittee thepowers and privileges conferred by theParks and Reserves Act of 1895, and un-less the Zoological Gardens are declaredto be a park or reserve under the Parksand Reserves Act, then the ZoologicalGardens would not come under this Bill.

The Colonial Secretary: Is it not apark under the 1895 Atl?

Hon. WV. KINOSMILL: It was notcreated in 1895. The wording of the Act

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by which the Zoological Gardens havetheir existence is as follows: -

The committee shall have all thepowers and authorities conferred bythe Parks and Reserves Act, 1895, up-on a hoard of parks and reserves tomake, repeal, and alter by-laws for themanagement, conservation, and use ofthe said gardens, and to impose and en-force penalties for the breach or non-observance of any such by-Jaws in man-ner prescribed by the said Act.

Speaking as a member of that committee,I think it is essentially desirable that theZoological Gardens should be broughtunder the operations of the Bill for thereason that if the park rangers havecause for arresting offenders against theirby-laws, even move so must it apply tothe Zoological Gardens. The keepers,who would be rangers nnder this Bill,have occasion to remonstrate with peoplewho tease and ill-use the animals, and itwould be well that they should be en-dowed with the powers, at least one ortwo of them, that it is proposed to endowunder this Bill. I do hope the ColonialSecretary will keep this point in view,and will ask the advice of the Crown Lawauthorities in order to put the ZoologicalGardens on the same footing as the parksand reserves it is proposed to include inthis little Bill. 1 have much pleasure insupporting the second reading.

The COLONIAL SE-CRETARY (inreply) : The points raised by the differenthon. members are certainly of great im-portance, so I do not propose to take theCommittee stage of the Hill until a futuresitting, and in the meantime I will notethe points and ask the ParliamentaryD~raftsmian to draft the necessary amend-ments. I quite recognise the importanceof the point '&r. Kingsmill has raised,and if the Bill does not cover the Zoologi-cal Gardens it was eertainly intended thatit should do so. It was intended to affordto the Zoological Gardens the same pro-tection as to other parks, for the reasonmentioned by the bon. member that thereis great necessity for it. With regard toarrests outside parks, it should be madeclear that if an offence takes place within

a park and it is seen by a ranger, heshould have the same power to make thearrest outside the park as he would havewithin the park. I do not see any diffi-culty about the point mentioned by Mr.Kirwan, I do not know that it is evennecessary to provide for it in the Bill,hut if it is necessary it can be expressedso as to make it certain. But the factoryinspectors have great powers invested inthem, and all they carry with them arecertificates signed by the head of their de-partmnent, and that is their warrant.

Ron. J. W. Hackett: Orchard inspec-tots also carry certificates.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Yes;and the protectors of aborigines have cer-tificates signed by the Minister that givethem all the powers they need. The samewill be done in this case.

Hon. J. W. Kirwan: Would it not bebetter to have something that could beseen

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Thesame objection applies to wearing uni-forms. The rangers would probablynever catch persons. However, I willhave the different points noted, and ifthey are not already expressed in the BillI will see that they are fully expressedin amendments wlikh I shall bring downlater on.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

BILL-HOSPITALS.

Second Reading.The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon.

J. D. Connolly), in moving the secondreading said: The measure which T havenow to present to this House is, as thetitle indicates, a Bill for an Act to pro-vide for the management and endowmentof public hospitals. We have in thisState, in proportion to the population, agreater number of hospitals than is foundin other States. We have 52 public hos-pitals. Tlhe~e are classified as 23 Govern-ment hospitals and 29 assisted hospitals.They are all public hospitals, but theGovernment hospitals are maintained en-tirely by the Government department,

590

[0 SEPTEMBER, 1910.] 9

whilst the assisted hospitals are managedby committees or boards on subsidiesgiven by the Government, all the internalmanagement being carried out by theboards or committees. During the finan-cial year 1908-9 the total cost of the 52hospitals in this State was £81,700 andthe amount of Government subsidy was£73,800. During the financial year justclosed there has been a reduction, and thetotal cost of the hospitals has been re-duced from L81,700 to £76,000, whilst thecost to the Government, including theGovernment and assisted hospitals, hasbeen reduced from £73,800 to £60,900. AsI hare said, we have a greater number ofhospitals in this State in p~roportion tothe population than is found in otherStates. For instance in Queensland, witha population of 550,000 there are 75 pub-lic hospitals; in New South Wales witha million and a-half people there are 129public hospitals; in Victoria with one andai-quarter millions there are 42 public hos-pitals, less than wve have in this State;in South Australia, with a population of400,000 there are some 13 public hos-pitals. The cost of hospitals in Queens-land is £139,000 for 75 hospitals, and fora population of 550,000, and the Govern-ment subsidy amounts to £77,000. So wesee the Governmenit subsidy here is almosras great as that paid in Queensland wherethe population is about double ours. InNew South Wales the total cost of thehospitals is £287,000, and the amount ofthe Government subsidy is £135,000. InVictoria the total cost of the hospitals is£l58.000 whilst the Government subsidyis only £53,000. In South Australia thetotal cost of hospitals is Z46.000, and theGovernment subsidy is £36,000. So whenwe ecom'pare what the Government or theState pays for hospitals in this State withwhat is paid in the other States we seethat this State is much more liberal inits expenditure on hos;pitals than is thecase with any other State. In additionto the £60,000 I have mentioned as theGovernment subsidy for the last financialyear, we pay £10,000 a year in subsidisingdistrict medical officers. These districtmedical officers attend the hospitals, sothat the hospitals receive the benefit of

their services at a cost of £10,000 to theGovernment in addition to the amount ofthe subsidy I have mentioned. In NewSouth Wales and Victoria there are noGovernment medical officers employed..Medical practitioners perform the workand receive fees if they do any Govern-ment work. In South Australia and inQueensland the system of Governmentmedical officers prevails to a very limitedextent, and in most cases the salaries areonly nominal, the medical men beingsatisfied to do the work, I presume, atnominal salaries on account of the stand-ing they get through being Governmentmedical officers for their districts. ThisBill is almost entirely an administrativemeasure. It provides for the governmentof the assited hospitals practically on thelines on which these hospitals, numbering29, are now managed. But they are notnow working under any recognised Act,and it is certainly very much better thatthey should have, as this Bill provides,land properly rested in trustees, andaltogether they should work under a Sta-tutle. It has been the aim of the presentGovernment to get the people to take overthe managemient of the hospitals as faras possible. It is thought to be verymuch better that the people should man-age and control their own hospitals thanthat the hospitals should be run entirelyas Government institutions. As I havealready stated, the system of Govern-ment hospitals prevails to a very muchgreater extent in this State than in anyother State. Indeed in the other States,with the exception of South Australia,the hospitals are managed by boards orcommittees. In South Auistralia I thinkthe Adelaide general hospital is managedby the Government. It is not with a viewto reducing the hospitals in any way thatthe Gover nment are desirous of gettingthe people to take them over. It is onlybecause experience makes the Governmentbelieve that it is in the best interests ofthe country and of the institutions thatthey shold be managed by the people.I do not say that the -Government arenot as well able to manage thern-,prob-ably they could manage them better be-cause they have had the experience-but

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it is better and nicer for the people tocontrol their own institutions than thatthey should be run purely as Governmentinstitutions. For instance if there areany persons so disposed, theme would bemuch more likelihood of their endowingor assisting hospitals managed by boardsor committees than those which are en-tirely Government institutions. I cer-tainly think that in the past the hospitalsof the State have lost very considerablythrough being Government institutions. Iventure to ay that had a number of thegoldields, hospitals been tinder boards,such for instance as those at Kalgoorlie,a rich locality, where people have madea great deal of money, many of thosemen who have made so much out of theplace, mnd who I regret to say have notdone as much as they might have donefor our institutions, would have beenmore likely to have endowed them. Wehave an instance that I shall touch uponlater. A large sum of money was left bythe late Mr. Padbury, and according toa decision of the High Court it could onlybe left to those hospitals managed byboards or committees, so that the institu-tions not managed by committees brboards did not participate in the Padhurybequest. During the last year a greatnumber of hospitals, I am pleased to say,have 'been taken over by the people.Amongst others were those at Beverley,Greenbushes, Katanning, Bridl-etown,Wagin, Kookynie, and Newcastle. Thereare several others in the course of beingtaken over.

Hon. 3. W. Kirwan: In howv manyeases did the local bodies refuse to takeover the hospitals?

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Thelocal bodies do not enter into the ques-tion. They have no power to take overthe hospitals, nor would it be usualto do so. The lion, member may bemisled in this way: any notificationsent by the department in connectionwith this matter of taking over thehospitals would naturally be addressedin the first instance to the localbody as representing the local peopleso as to get in touch with the local people.

Negotiations have been entered into wvithseveral localities who have not yet de-cided to take over the hospitals. In theease of Kalgoorlie, Albany, York, Nor-thani, and Bunbury, they thought itwould cast too great a burden on them. Imay mention that under the system ofassisted hospitals a subsidy of 15s. and10s. in the pound was paid on all moneyscollected, but after a good deal of ex-perience, as M~r. Kingsmill knows, itwas not proved to be satisfactory. Afterall, it is not the duty of the State to pay15s. in the pound for the treatment ofevery person in the State; that is to say,if people contribute to a hospital and re-ceive certain privileges in return-peoplewho are well able to pay for hospitaltreatment-it is not the duty of thie Stateto contribute 15s. in the pound towardstheir treatment. That is the main reasonwhy it wvas decided that the system ofsubsidising in this wvay wvas not satisfac-tory. After a god deal of considerationit was decided to classify each hospitalaccording to population and to allot toeach a certain sum. For instance, in theease of Kalgoorlie they were given£5,000 in the first year, and in the secondyear the amount was £4,500. In the caseof the Biinhury hospital it was £700. Inthese two instances the amounts wereconsidered sufficient to maintain the hos-pitals ma to provide for all cases. Itwould be an easy matter then for theseinstitutions, having adequate staffs, toprovide for a great njumber of payingpatients at a moderate cost. The hos-pitals which I have mentioned were notsatisfied with the amounts, and the de-partmenit showed that in the case of Kal-goorlie and Bunbury the suims which weregiven were adequate. Kalgoorlie at thepresent time is maintaining its institu-tion for a few pounds over, or, I think, itis a few pounds less than the amountwhich they are receiving, and the samething is the case at Northam and York.

Hon. J. W. Kirwan: What about thethird, fourth, and fifth years?

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: ThisGovernment cannot pledge any futureGovernment. The amounts will largelydepend upon Parliament. If Parliamentvotes the money it will be an easy matter

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[6 SEPTEMBER, 1910.] 9

to pay it to the hospitals; then it willdepend upon the growth and require-ments of the place, and due regard mustalso he bad to the finances of the State.No Goverinment can pledge themselvesbeyond a year or two at the outside. Theother hospitals which 1 have mentionedare satisfied now, and the probability isthat they will all fall into line. With re-gard to the Perth hospital, the expendi-hire there was going up by leaps andbounds, and was altogether out of pro-portion to the population. Speakingfrom memory, the first year that I wasin office the cost was something like£12,000, anid then it was necessary forthemn to have an excess sum, whichbrought the figures up to £14,000. Theyear before last tbe total had run up to£07500, an amount altogether out ofproportion to the growth of the popula-tion.

Hon. W. Kingsmill: Population hasvery little to do with the Perth hospital.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Imean the population of the State. Thecost, too, was altogether out of propor-tion to the hospitals in the cities in theEastern States. In Adelaide where theyhave only a casualty ward in Port Ade-laide, the annual cost of the hospital is£10,500. The Government were not sat-isfied and] I pointed out to the hoard thatthe amount was excessive, and after hav-ing given the matter careful cousidera-tion I told them that the Governmentcontribution would not exceed £13,000.Since then the vote has been reducedto that sum, a sum which I feel certainwill provide for all who have to seek theaid of the institution. After all, it isonly a matter of management. Thesehospital expenses can be reduced, and atthe same time provision can be made forevery person who seeks treatment atthem. The Bill before the House is nota contentious measure, and I have simplymentioned these few facts to give mem-bers an idea of the cost of the adminis-tration of the hospitals. The Bill willprovide for the management of these hos-pitals by boards. It provides in the firstplace for the appointment of trustees;fbere are to be five truistees, including theColonial Secretary for the time being.

The four who are to be appointed by'the Governor will bold office for fiveyears. The Bill provides that these trus-tees shall hold all land and buildings andendowments for the public hospitals ofthe State. They will have certain powersvested in them which are set forth inClause 7. The laud wvill not be vested inthe particular hospital board but it wvillbe vested in the trustees. The trusteeswill be able to dispose of land undercertain conditions, or if it is land ormoney given by the State or bequeathedto any particular hospital, it will be heldin accordance with the trust. Clause 7provides that there shall be vested in thetrustees-

All real property which was vestedin any old board at the time when thehospital for the purposes wvhereof suchold Board existed was proclaimed; allreal property hereafter desired, given,devolving on, purchased or otherwiseacquired by any proclaimed hospital;all real and personal property acquiredby the trustees by purchase, gift, de-v-ise, bequest, or otherwise.

T forgot to mention that the Bill repealsthe only Hospital Act in existence, anAct passed in 1894.

Eon. W. Kingsmill: That Act ap-plies to two hospitals.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Asthe lion, member points. out, the Act ap-plies to two hospitals-Perth and Fre-mantle; but it is not at all workable, andit was thought much better to bring in anew Bill altogether and do away withthe existing Act. The Bill Provides ;inClause 16 powers of leasing, mortgaging,sale, and exchange. There is anothervery important clause of the Billreferring to the Padhury bequest. Irefer to Clause 12. The late Mr.Padhury willed that the residue of hisestate should be divided into three parts,one part to the Diocesan Trustees ofthe Church of England, another part tothe hospitals and asylums, and the thirdpart to the poor houses. The will, how-ever. was not very clearly worded andconsiderable litigation has followed in theeourts. The trustees have had to go0 tothe court during the last 12 or 18 monthsto _-et a definition of "poorhouses and

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hospitals." The High Court held that thehospitals which should receive one-thirdof the total were 17 hospitalIs, which havebeen set forth in the schedule of the Bill,together with the Salvation Army Home,the Convalescent Home at Cottesloe, theHome of Peace, the House of MercyAssociation, the Lady Lawley Cottage-by-the-Sea, and the two hospitals for the in-sane at Claremont and Whitby rails.These 24 hospitals are to share andshare alike in a third of the residue ofthe estate of the late Walter Padhury,and this is estimated to be worth about£30,000. The wvill was so peculiarlyworded that it had to he referred to theHigh Court, and I will read the judg-nment of the Chief Justice, Sir SamuelOriffith, who said-

The appellants contend further thatthe testator did not intend to give one-third of his residuary estate in reliefof the "Consolidated Revenue, as, theybsay, would result from accepting therespondent's contention; and theypoint out that it was a condition of theestablishment of a poorhouse under theStatute of 1882 that it should be an in-stitution maintained wholly at thepublic expense. On the other band itwas pointed out that a charitable giftfor the benefit of the inmates of poor-houses, as well as of lunatic asylums,might be applied in many ways forthe amelioration of their condition andthe increase of their comfort andpleasures of life, altogether apart fromthe mere maintenance of the institu-tion, and that a gift for such a pur-pose would be a good charitable gift.Upon the whole I think that the argu-ments for the respondent preponderatein weight, and that the testator mustbe taken, when he used the- word"poorhouses" to have intended to de-signate the Government institutions ofthat name. I think, therefore, that inthis ease also there should be directionfor the appointment of trustees of liefund and for the settlement of ascheme for its management.

Later oil the judgment of the Riot

Court defined clearly that this money couldonly be spent in luxuries for the patients

of these hospitals. It is quite an im-possible proposition, however, and by theway it is only the income from this be-quest that can be spent, and this willamount to £1,100 or £1,200. You can-not however give a patient in a hospitalany luxury; he must receive the treat-ment which his ease demands.

Hon. R. W. Pennefather: Surely ifa man wishes to give luxuries he has aright to do so.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY:Yes, I am not disputing that. If it bequite impossible to give a patient aluxury in the ordinary way, the ques-tion arises "In what way can you givethat patient a luxury"? This was re-ferred to the Supreme Court of WesternAustralia, and the Court will he satisfiedif a convalescent home be built with thismoney, and the patients sent there inequal proportions from the hospitalsnamed in the Bill. That will be some-thing the Supreme Court has expresseditself as favourable to, and it will holdthat this is the intention of the judg-ment of the High Court.

Hon. W. Kingsmill: What aboutRulong?

The COLONIAL SECRETARY:Take the ease of Bulong-I have thisfroma the court-before they would grantmoney to Bulong a scheme would haveto be put in, and approved by the court,showing exactl 'y how it is intended tospend that money. The question is, howare they going to give the patientssomething over and above the ordinarytreatment? Clearly the only way willbe to build a convalescent home and sendthem there. The individual amounts aresmall for that, but collectively it willfbe,say, £20,000, of which £5,000 could bespent on a building and the remainderinvested for the upkeep of the conval-eseut home. Therefore every hospitalwill benefit by the plan in the way, thecourts holds, Ifr. Padbury intended.This Clause 12 only deals with the por-tions that the hospitals mentioned in theschedule are entitled to; there are 17portions.

Hon. J. W. Kirwan: Why have thesebeen singled out?

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[6 Snr-rnmmE, 1910.] 3)

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Be-cause they were public hospitals man-aged by boards. If you take theothers--take the Home of Peace forthe dying and incurable ; you can giveto those patients something extra, whichyou could not give in the public hospitalin Perth. And it will apply also to theLady Lawley's Cottage-by-the-Sea, andthe hospitals for the insane. You couldprovide amusements for the patients inthese institutions, and the amount couldbe furnished out of the income derivablefrom these sources; but the trustees ofthese places have to put in a statement,to be approved by the court, showing howthey intend the income shall be expended.

Hon. J. W. Kirwan: Then the wholeof the money will not be distributedamong these hospitals?

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Yes,i equal proportions.

Don. W. Kingsmill: Does Bulong getit?

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Itseems rather ridiculous, but the HighCourt does not dlistinguish between thepublic honspital in Perth and the hospitalat Muiwarrie, which is almost extinct to-day; they are to share and share alike.Take the case of Bulong; it is almost im-possible for them to spend the money inthe way intended. That brings me tothe benefit likely to arise by having thehospitals managed by boards. In hiswill Mr. Padbury stated that these sumsshould be granted to the trustees of hos-pitals. Because of this no Governmenthospitals can lparticipate, seeing that theyhave no trustees to receive the money. Ahospital like that of Perth, which is keptup almost entirely at the State expense,has a board, and therefore will partici-pate: the hospital at Kalgoorlie cannot,nor can that at Mfenzies, notwithstandingthat the institutions at Bulong, 'Mt. *.%or-gans, Laverton, and Leonora can par-ticipate, hpeause they have hoards. Upto the present time most of the assistedhospitals have been on the goldfields.

Hon. J. tanesford: They are to buildthe home here.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Thetrustees will decide upon the best place

for a convalescent home and it will haveto be approved by the court. The rea-son for putting this provision in theBill is in order that one set oftrustees can manage the whole amount,the ordinary hospital endowment and thisparticular endowment. The Minister forthe time being, wvith four others shallhold office for four years. When the trus-tees have decided to build the home theymust get the approval of the Court as towhat they will spend upon it.

Hon. J1. W. Hackett: Why not put itin a separate Bill dealing with the Pad-bury bequest? This is a most lawlessproceeding.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Thisclause appears as a suggestion from theCourt and the Court thought that was thebest way to deal with it: that insteadof appointing separate trustees to theseventeen hospitals, and each of themtrying to build a convalescent home, itwould be better to mak~e it one commonconvalescent home and provide that allthe hospitals shall share and share alike.

Hon. J. W. Langsford: Only patientsfrom these particular hospitals can go tothe convalescent hornet

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Yes,and in equal proportions. Members mustrecognise that the will is a most difficultone to interpret, and that after being in-terpreted it is a most difficult one to carryout. The Court, after a lot of consider-ation extending over about two years-

Hon. W. Kingsmifl: Is the £30.000still left q

The COLONIAL SECRETARYThere was probably £60,000. There wasno question about the one-third whichwvent to the diocesan trustees of theChurch of England. but the other two-thirds9 are still unpaid.

Hon. J. W. Hackett; The estate hasnot yielded as much as had been expected.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY :However. I repeat it may appear at firstsight a rather unusual clause to appearin a Bill. but it has been put in the Billfor the reason I have stated, namely, atthe suggestion of the Court. The Billconsists really of two parts, namely, theappointment of trustees. wvithi whih I

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have already dealt, and boards of man-agement for any lparticular hospital.It is provided that there shall be a boardof mana-ement for each hospital, and Iwill explain what provisions are neces-ary so that they may be managed by aboard. The board of management sbaUconsist of six or nine members. TheGovernor appoints the board of manage-ment, but it is provided that if the volun-tary subscriptions amount to one-fourthof the expenditure the suhr-cribers shallnominate at least one-thudl of the board.If the voluntary subscriptions amounltto onie-half the expenditure then the sub-scribers shall nominate two-thirds of theboard, and the other third will always beappointed by the Governor-in-Council.lint in order to give the Minister furtherpowers it is provided in that clause thatif the voluntary subscriptions should notbe up to the amount 1 have stated. not-withsptanding this the Govern or-inl-Coun-nl may allow the subscribers to nominateone-third or two-thirds of the board.And, speaking for myself, even if thesubscriptions be smnall, in order to encour-age the people to take an interest in theinstitution. I emi always anxious toallow subscribers to nominate theirown committee to the extent shownin the Bill. Take a hospital costingX6,0I00; subscribers may contribute£1l,000, and it might mean a great hard-ship for them to contribute £2,000. Inorder to encourage a hospital of thatkind provision is made for the exercise ofdiscretion in respect to allowing the sub-scribers to nominate a proportion of theboard. The remaining clauses in thatpart of the Bill clearly define the dutiesand obligations of the board. Briefly, theboard will manage the institution practi-cally as the Perth, Fremantle, and otherhospitals I have mentioned are managedto-day; they will have full control of themauagemeqlt, and will be given suchsums each year as Parliament may pro-vide. The boards will not hold the lands.These will be held by the trustees for allhospitals, and can only be dealt with bythe trustees in the way set forth in theclause. Any bequest which does not ex-ceed £100 will be given to the board, but

any bequest over that amount wilt hegranted to the trustees to manage on be-half of the hospitals. If the bequestsets forth any particular hospital it wiUlhave to be held on behalf of that par-ticular hospital.

Hon. W. Kipgmill: But the trusteesMay alter the destination of any money.

The COLONIA-L SECRETARY:Under certain conditions. The Billgives the board power to make all neces-sary by-laws in connection with the man-agenmeit of the hospital. It is furtherprovided that the several boards shallkeep uniform by-laws and uniform booksof account. This is very essential inorder that they may all keep their ac-counts in the same way, and it will en-sure better management in the differentinstitutions. The administration of 0tameasure will be in the hands of thePrincipal Medical Officer, and he is givenpower to visit and inspect the hospitalsjust as the Auditor General is givenpower to inspect and audit the accounts.Briefly those are the provisions of thebill. It is purely ailnadministrative Billdesigned for the administration of as-sisted hospitals practically in the waythey are carried oat to-day; and also itis to encourage the people in taking aninterest in these institutions, and to fur-ther encourage the taking over by thepeople of the hospitals now entirely un-der the direction of the Government. Imove-_

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

On motion by Ron. W. Kingsmill, de-bate adjourned.-

ADJOURNMENT-STATE OF BIJSI-KE SS.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Ron.3. D. Connolly): As the work has not ar-rived from another place with therapidity 1 expected, and as I understandit is the desire of the majority of mem-bers, most of whom live in the country,that we should adjourn for a sufficienttime to ensure that we shall be kept

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constantly at work after we resume, Imove-

That the House at its rising adjournto Tuesdaly, the 27th September.

Question passed.

House adjourned at 6.2 p.m.

legislative EesembIv,Tutesday. tith September, 1910.

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Railway Loconiotives.-fliable uots andrepiir, Patent Amh pan Bapra.ceflilnY. ReportvfrAdvi..oer

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General Moan ad Inscribed Stork, 2..Agricultural Bank ActAn~eudment, 2&.Cow.

PAGE-597507

597W8Wea95985959599so599all600oilala

The SPEAKER took the Chair at4.30 p.m., and read prayers.

IPAPERIS PRESENTED.By the Premier: Grading and pay of

Police Force (return ordered on motionby Mir. Collier).

By the Attorney General: Report ofthe Department of Land Titles for theyear ended 30th June, 1910.

QrESTJON-RAILWAY PASSENGERINCREASE.

Mr. BATH asked the Minister forRailways: What was the amount of in-crease in passenger receipts on themetropolitan-suburban railway servicefor the months of July and August?1

The MINISTER FOR RAILJWAYSreplied: The amount of increase for themonths of July and August, 1910, incomparison wvith similar period last year,was £6,089 12s. Id.

QUESTIONS (2)-RAILWAYMOTIVES.

Disablemen.ts and Repairs.

LOCO-

Mr. BOLTON asked the Minister forRailways :1, Is the Minister awarethat several locomotive disablements orbreakdowns have taken place duriug thepast few months owing to the breakageof crank pinsl 2, Is he aware of thedangerous nature of such accidents? 3,To what cause does he attribute theac-cjdents. 4, Iii view of' the increasingtraffic, the heavy loading of engines, andtheir consequent slate of disrepair, willlie take immediate steps to provide fur-ther locomotives to enable thorough re-pairs to be effeeted to those in use, andin Ihe meantime see that the loading ofengines is not as excessive?

The MIISTER FOR RAILWAYSreplied; 1, Yes. Two locomotives havebeen disabled within the last six monthsthrough breakage of crank pinus. 2,Although undesirable, such occurrencesare not considered dangerous. 8,Fatigue. 4, The locomotives in use atpresent are in an efficient state of re-pair. and the loading is not excessive.Drawings for additional eng-ines arenow in. hand.

Patent Ash-pan.Mr. BOLTON asked the Minister for

Railway, s: 1, Did the Railway Depart-ment recently try the ''Hill's patent''locomotive ash-pan? 2, If so, what wasthe nature of the test and the result ofsame? 3, Does the department intendmaking use of this patent?1 4, If so,when? 5, If not, for what reason?

The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYSreplied: 1, Yes. 2, Ordinary service ingoldfields district. Failing into disuse.3, No. 4, Answered by No. 3. 5, Onaccount of its initial cost being £54.against present standard £23. Not suit-able for a-,rieultural area.

59 1