Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 20 OCTOBER 1926

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1218 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

WEDNESDAY, 20 OCTOBER, 1926.

The SPEAKER (Hon. \V. Bcrtram, Maree) took the chair at 10.30 a.rn.

QUESTIOXS.

CAPITAL EXPE:-iDITURE AND PROFITS OR LOSSES, BARALABA AND STYX STATE COAL 1\frNES.

Mr. BRAJ'\D (Burrum), for Mr. Corser (Burnett), asked the Secretary for Mines-

" 1. What has been the total capital expenditure of the Baralaba and also tho Styx State Coal Mines since their commencement?

"2. What have been the total profits or 1osscs made on these n1in'-•s since their commencement?

" 3. 'What were the profits or losses from 30th June, 1925, to 30th June, 1926 ?"

The SECRETARY FOR ~IIC\ES (Hon. A. J. Joncs. P•uJdinuton). replied-

" 1. Baralaba, £35,389 Os. 4d. ; Styx No. 2. £27,231 14s. Cd. ; Styx ); o. 3, £93.693 18s. 1d.

"2. Baralaba-Total losses, £17,483 14s. 3d. Styx J'\o. 2-Tot.nl lo'f0S, £48,392 19·. 10d. Styx No. 3-This mine is on a work­ing basis from 1st July, 1926.

" 3. Baralaba-Total losses, £6,105 Os. 7d. Styx No. 2-Total losses, £14,554 lls. 4d. Stvx No. 3-This mine is on a working basis from 1st July, 1926."

[Jfr. Kerr.

RETRENCHMENT IN RAILWAY PRINTING OFFICE. Mr. MAXWELL (1'oowong), for Mr. Ken

(Enog{Jera), asked the Secretary for Rail­\Vays-

" 1. Is it a fact that a number of <:;mploYees in the Railway Printing Office '"t Roma Street have received notice terminating their services?

" 2. If so, ho'v many are concerned, and the son ice of each?

"3. If Ko. 1 is in the affirmativ<:;, will he state if a policy of retrenchment has been commenced in the Railway Depart­Inent?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILVi'AYS (Hon. J. Larcombe, Il.eppel) replied-

" 1. Yes. " 2. Six. Length of service--27:! years,

26 years, 15! years, 12 years, 10 years, and Sl years.

" 3. By the adoption of a more economi­cal and up-to-date process for doing the work previously done by the Printing Office. th<J service of that office became unnt'cessary and the men could not be retained."

CosT OF ADDITIO!'<S AND ALTERATIONS, Ro~IA STREET POLICE STATIO:-i.

Mr. MAXWELL (1'oou·ong) asked the Suc·rctary for Public Works-

" \Vhat was the estimated cost of addi­tions and alterations to the Police Station at Roma Street?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS CH on. M. J. Kirwan, Brisbane) replied-

" £20,547 13s."

UNE~IPT.OYED AT ToowoOMBA AND REGRADING RAILWAY WORK ON MAIN RANGE.

Mr. ROBERTS (East 1'oowoomba) asked the Secretary for Railways-

" In view of the large number of unem­ployed at Toowoomba, will he expedite th€ commencement of the regrading work on the main range, Toowoomba ?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. J. Larcombe, [{cppel) replied-

" Arrangements were made on 13th October to commence deviation and regrading works between Lockyer and Murphy's Creek on 21st instant."

El\IPLOYEES AT REDBA:-iK COLLIERY AND LACK OF RAILWAY Acco~r;uoDATION.

Mr. ROBERTS (East 1'oowoomba) asked the Secretary for Railways-

" 1. Has he seen the statement in to-day's press that employees at Redbank Colliery are often unable to get to their work owing to lack of accommodation on the trains, although such men are the holders of workmen's weekly tickets?

" 2. Will he take steps to see that suffi­cient accommodation is provided on these trains in future?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. J. Larcombe, Kcppcl) replied-

" 1. Yes. "2. Yes.''

Siamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1219

Loss 0:-1 MERINDA-COLLINSVILLE RAILWAY.

Mr. MOORE (1iubigny) asked the Secre­tary for Railways-

" \Vhat is the total loss on the l\Ierinda to Collinsville Railwav to 30th June laEt ?" V

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL\YAYS (Hon. J. Larcombe, K rppel) replied-

" The loss for the first three years was £3.944, but last year there was a profit of £266. The saving in the coal bill as a result of the use of Collinsville eo a i on the Great Northern Railwav for the periods mentioned was approximately £200,000."

PAPER.

The fo:lowing paper was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Report b,· Government Analy,t and Chief Inspector of Explosiws for the year ended 30th June, 1926.

PUBLIC WORKS LAKD RESUMPTION ACTS A;.\1EXDMENT BILL.

lNITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gym pie): I beg to move-

" That the House will. at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the 'Whole to conside·r of the desirableness of introducing a Bill to a mend the Public \Vorks Land Reeumption Acts, 1906 to 1917, in a certain particular."

Question put and passed.

Sl:GAR WORKERS' PERPETUAL LK\SE SELECTIONS ACT A::.\1END::.\1Ki\'T BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gym.pie): I beg to move-

" 'I'hat the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the \\7 hole to consider of the dr,irable­ness of introducing a Bill to amend the Sugar vVorkors' Perpetual Lease Selec­tions Act of 1923 in a certain particular."

Question put and passed.

STAMP ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

REST~:VIPTION OF COMl!ITTEE.

(Mr. F. A. Cooper, Bremer, one of the panel of 1'em.porary Chairmen, in the chair.)

Question stated-

That clause 31-" Amendment of section I 1-Pena/ty for offences in reference to 7'e<eipts "-stand part of the Bill.

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny): I was wondering whether the Treasurer has found out the position of agents in connection with this clause.

The TREASURER : There is no need to find out.

Mr. MOORE: It seems to me ihat. if these people have been breaking the law all these years. the Commissioner of Sto.mp Duties would not be content to let it go. I want

thc position cleared up, as it is a Yery impor­tant matter.

The TREASURER : \V e are at ono on that.

Mr. MOORE: If I employ an agent to sell goods for me, I pay him for doing the work. He does not buy the goods from me, and he puts into e trust account-not into his own "ccount-the amount he receiYes for tne goods. I-Ie is acting fDr rne as my agent. There are not two transactions, but only onG.

Th<e TREAScRER : There are hYo trans­actions.

:Mr. MOORE: There is onh- one b-ans­action. I am selling the stuff "through hirn to another individual. and it appears to rne that the Commissioner of Stamp Duties is not likely to have allowed this to continue indefinitely if it were against the law.

Mr. CARTER: He did not know of it.

::'.l[r. MOORE: He must have known, because these transactions are taking placl' every dav. The practice has been continued Year after Year. The suggestion that there are two trai;sactions when a man is employed LS an agent is ::tbsurd.

The TREASURER: Suppooe you gi.-c a man the collection of the renis of fom· houoc' He collects the rent from the tcuant' and gives receipts for it. Then he· pays vou the rent, less his commission. You ¥.-ill have to giye him a stamped receipt.

:VIr. ::Y100RE: That is a different posi­tion. The man I am talking about is only acting as agent betv.~cc-n two principal~. It is not hvo transactions-it is only one trans­action.

The TREASliRER : Suppose a produce mer­chant sells the goods of a dozen people in one -lot.

:'>fr. :VlOORE: If he does, that makes no difference. He is only your agent; you arc paying him to do certain work for you. He is only being paid for the >York he doe' in bringing two people together. It is go­ing to be a most serious thing if this i, held to be the law. I do not think it is the law in a case like this. whC're we have an Auctioneers and Commission Agents Act in operation.

The TREASliRER: The hon. member for Murilla instanced a case where he got £1,000 for some bullocks he so!CI and never gave any receipt.

Mr. MOORE: The agent is onlv the intrrmecliarv between the two princip"als in a 'ase like that. and there are not two transactions at all. This is a most serious position.

The TE::.\1PORARY CHAIR::.\IA::-.J : Strictly speaking, the discussion is proceeding on lines which arc quite out of o·rder. I trust that hon. members will confine tlw debate strictly to the wording of the clause.

:VIr. ROBERTS (Ea.<t 1'oowoomba): I understand that we arc deb" ting the que' tion of givjng a receipt vvhen an ag-0nt receives moneY from a buyer and " receipt from the principal to the ag·ent ,,·hen th::> rctnrn is made. Take the question of a meLnber's salary, fnr instance. I snppnse when an hon. member goes down for his salary he will give a receipt. I understand that in some cases thP money is simply· pai·d into a bank. and although there arc two transar­tions there, there is only one receipt. It

Mr. Robeds.l

1220 Stamp Acts [ASSE.3IBL Y.] Amendment Bill.

seems to me that there ought to be two receipts. In casps ''here agents sell produce for people in country districto provision ought to be made to relieve these people of the obligation of having to acknowledge a receipt for the return from their agent.

Mr. G. P. B_\R~ES (Warwick): It seems to me that thi.s will b2 easily and readily car·riod out bot\voen ono busines::; rnau and another in the city, but we strike altogether different ground when we have to do \Vith a man on the land. Ever,one knows th~ ordinary procedure of sondin~g goods on con~ signmont. 'Iho sale is n1ade b:, the agent, who puts tho proceeds to the credit of his trust 'lccount. and the fMmer in due course rcceiYe;;; his Cheque, which is goneral1y pay­able to order and probably crossed "non­negotiable," but I cannot call to mind one instance in which the fanner has followed the practice of acknowledging receipt of the cheque. He neither acknowledges the receipt of the cheque nor attempts to send any formal receipt. The Treasurer will see at once that, if ho seeks to enforce this pro­vision on the fanning COintuunity, he ,,_,ill turn things upside down. Ho has no idea how irksome the carrying out of such a provision would be on the man on the land. If the Tre~surer is bent upon insisting on it and penalising the farmer. I suggest that the next best thing is to make the cheque ,, non-negotiable " unless it bears a receipt on the back of it. I do not care how strict you n1av rnake tht~ law or ho-w drastic a penalty, the farmer will not send a receipt, and the only way in which the provision could he carried out with anv dc'l'roe of certainty is by requiring an ~cndorscn1ent in the form I suggest. It would save the farmer the necessity of writing a letter of aclmowledgment.

The TREASURER (Hon. \V. :\IeCormack, Cairn.,): The argument against this provision has been confined to one particular class. The question before the Committnc is not whether it is reasonable that rwrsons follow­ing a certain occupation should be exempt from stamp dub-. The point is that under the law these receipts are stampable, .wd the i~rgtunent that there is no tranJaction between the agent and the man who sends hi~ pro­duce to him will hold no water at all.

:Ylr. l\1oonE: They are all one transaciion.

The TREASURER: Thcv ar<' not. Get am· legal opinion you like. Ask :,-our Depuh­Leader as to \vhether thev are tv' o transac­tions or one transaction. ~

:\Ir. PETERSON: You rnight go as far as the Privy Council and not get satisfaction.

The TEMPORARY CHAIR:YL~=" : I would point out to the Trea,urer that the que;tion before the Committee is as to the duty of the person making a payment to obtain a 'receipt, and not the condition of the law at present.

The TREASURER: The law nt present is practically what the amendment seeks to do. All that the Stamp Commissioner would have to do would be to put the law in operation, and hon. members would find that these receipts have to be given. I have here the receipt of an agent who collected rents on behalf of his client. 'l'he people who paid him that rent received receipts. and here is the bank deposit slip with a duty stamp on it for the deposit of the

[Mr. Roberts.

balance oi the rent, less his ronunission, to the credit of the owner of the house·'· That is what should be done if the law is c,u-,ried out.

:Ylr. KrxG: That is a third-party receipt.

The TREASURER: 'rhat has nothing to do '' ith it. The fact is that the stamp duty is on the transaction, and this is a transac­tion. Cloar!v the principal receives his money from the agent, and he should give a receipt, just as .any other per ,on "'sho is a party to such a transaction.

:c\Ir. l\IoRGAX : I \YOuld like to see you test it.

The 'l'REASUREH: You g1v<' me th'' particulars of that sale of bullocks, and I will give you the opportunity of {sting it. (Laughter.)

Mr. :YIORGAX: You can tc,st it. 1. ou have the Government behind you.

The TREASURER: I can make a test case of it v;ithout the hon. member's con­currence, and the hon. member must defend it w.hethcr ho likes it or noL There is no obligation on the part of the Commissioner to consult the lawbreaker as to whether he shall institute a test case or not. However, I do not want to start a test case. :'.Iy desire is to make it clear that the person receiving the moneY will be bound to stamv a receipt and rehn:n it. I repeat that recently many companies ha \"C been on the mat over this very thing. They had been in th.:; habit of fm·warding a letter with a cheque mfornung the receiver of the money that the cheque \vould be a sufficient receipt, and they have been evading stamp duty. Every one of the receivers of the money has been fined. They raised the queetion themselves, and pointed out that evorvone else was breaking the law. The onlv reason for the clause is to give the Comrnis~ioner power to impose the law w,hich has been in operation since 1894.

Mr. KrxG: Ko, only since 1918.

Mr. PETERSON (Tormanby): Ko doubt the dPsire of the Trea ,urer is to reu:ivc addi­tion a] revenue. The other day I gave a man £2 to bnv some timber for me. He was actin'< as mv agPnt. He obtained a receipt for f:l 18s.,· sent mo the 2s .. and delivered the timber. According to the arg·umcnt of the Trc;lsnrer I should give that man a ,hmpod receipt.

.l\Ir. CARTER: Xot for 2s.

::Yir. PETERSON: According to the Tn<t­surer I could be summoned for a breach of the _\et for failing to give a tec~ipt to. my servant, employee. or agent who obtamed the material for me.

Th0 TREAS1:RER: Only if there arc two transactions.

Mr. PETERSO=": Let us look at this matter from the aspect of the producers. The hun. trentlPman says there are two trans­action~. \Vhat does it am'ount to. after all? It is a case of workers sending their labour to be sold on the Brisbane market. They employ an agent in the Lity to sell their labour. and because they do that the Trea­surer is demanding payment for duty in two 'ases. \Vhy, the thing is preposterous .. f!:ow anyone can argue that there arc two d1st;nct tra.nsactions is bevond my eo m prehenswn. \Vhen workers are paid their wages they are not called upon to give stamped receipts.

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1221

The TE::\IPORARY CHAIR:'vlAN: Order! The clause deals with the question Df demand­ing ru:eipts.

Ylr. l'ETERSON: I am pointing out how unfair the provision is. The Treasurer ha.s stated tha.t this is a double transaction. \Vhcn a worker is paid his wages no stamped receipt is demanded.

The TE::\fPURAHY CHAIH:HAN: Order!

Mr. PETERSOK: I am sorry t-hat I am out of order. I must bow to your ruling, Mr. Cooper, but I am merely repl0-ing to the Troasur~r.

The TREASURER : YDu are discussing the merits of taxation. That has nothing what--8\·er to do with the clause.

Mr. PETERSON : The hon. gent-leman dealt with this matter at some length, and I am merely pointing out that the producer is selling his labour on the Brisbane market, and the Treasurer has !]{) right t-o demand two 'tamp duties.

::Ylr. KIJ'\G (Logan): I am not a bit con­cenwd about the giYing of a receipt which is liable to duty; but what I am concerned with is t-he provision compelling the person who pays the money to secure a. receipt. It simply mE,llls that the Government are endeavouring to make every person who pays money a tax-gatherer for the department.

Tho TREASC"RER: Do vou realise to what extent stamp duty is bei"ng evaded, not o1dy with regard to produce? That is only one line.

:\Ir. KING: I realise that a little la,tcly, but I know that- since 1918, when the first part of the mnendn1cnt canle into operation, it has been compulsory for persons to give receipts. I-Iowevel'. "\Ve are not concer-ned about that just now.

The TREASrRER: You arc. You made me refer to it·. It has been the law since 1894.

The TE:11PORARY CHAIH:\IAN: Order! Order!

~Ir. KE\G: The hon. gentleman may pro­bablv erad the section in tlw Consolidated A.ct. ·but I believe that hE' will discowr that it wr" fir·t introduced in t-he Act in 1918. \Vhat I a1n ('Oncerncd about no"· is the attempt on the part of the Government tn make PYcry pcr~on who n1akes a 11ayrnont a, tax-gat-herer for the Government. Under the Ei11 a prr~on who pays out any 1noney must spe that he oLtains a receipt, and, if h{~ do~s not do ~o. he is liable to a penaltv not cx~c:~edjng £50. ~

The 'TnnsrRER : :'\ ot if he demands the receipt.

:Hr. KI:'\G: \Yho is going to be the arbi­r.rator ''"' to whether he was negligent in demanding it?

The TREASllRER: His letter at the time.

::Yh. KIKG: Supposing there is no letter; supposing I hand the hon. gentleman a cheque and say, '· Give me a receipt," and he does not do so, would I be negligent? And whD would be the judge as to whet.her I was negligent or not? Business men forwarding money by letter invariably state, " Ki;!dl:, acknowledge receipt in the ordinary ·way.

The TREASURER: Do you think you ought ·to send a letter telling t.hem that it is not necessary to for\Yard a receipt?

l'lr. IGl\G: Probably that experience of the hon. gentleman has provided him with the motive for the amendment, but Drdinary business people, when forwarding payment.s in the ordinary course of business, naturally require an acquittance, and ask for a receipt. If they do not receiYe a receipt, they may be called upon at any time to make a further payment. The business man takes that courw to protect himself. The Commissioner might say, "You were negligent in not receiving a receipt, a.nd you are liable t<J a penalty of £50." The action of the Govern­ment through the Commissioner in put.ting this liability on the pcrsou who pays his debts is imposing an undue hardship upon him.

The TnK\SFRER: Do you object to inform­ing your client that he has to stamp certain papL·rs ·:

JYI.-. KING: Surely he Dught i-o know 1dwt his obligation is without one being com1wlled under a penrrlt:,· to tell him. I obtain a receipt for n1: own protection. Of course I would do so, and any other person who is liable would also do sn.

The TREASURER: Do you give direct orders through a bank by means of a cheque telling him 110t· to forward a rC< "ipt?

Mr. KIKG : I do not do so. The TREASURER: S01nc business people do.

::\Ir. KIKG: I lHwc !wen consulted con-(·erning certain ldtcrs wblch have been for­vvarded by the Cornrnissioner to persons \Yho hD ,-e rccci vcd monevs in sneh a- manner. I have been asked, "~\m I bunnd to pay duty on this receipt?" and I have said, "Of coursr you are." Those pcr:30lls eventually heed to pa,v, not only stamp dul-y but a fine of 2s. 6d. for nnt having paid.

The TnE.\Sl"RER: Hear, hear!

l\llr. l(_ING : rrheir ar tion wa c.. due 1nore to iguorance than anything else. but those persons ydw received dividend::; were not advised by the person or company fmward­ing the cheques that it. was not necessary to pay stamp duty. They simply took it as a settled matter. Although I wish to see the rcY•'Jmc Df the St-atcc protected in every way, I cannot approve of this arncndrnent, as it is not a fair liability to place on a man who carries out the law, and who does all that is required of him for his own pro­tection by asking for a receipt, and t·hen the Con1missioner n1ay cotne along and say, "YDu did not make a dcn1and," or "If you made a demand, you have been negligent." It places too much power in the hands of the Commissioner, because he is to be the arbitrary judge as to whether a person has been negligent or not.. That is my objection.

Mr. MAXV\'ELL (Toowong): The reason­ing of the Deputy Lcade1- of the Opposition

is quite feasible, and to my mind [11 a.m.] the hon. member put the case

Y<'rv fairlv. He asked if the Government i1;tend td penalise the business man who has already made a. demand for a receirH. and that dr·mand has not been com­plied "-ith. Is that man liable tD a penalty up to £50? Last night I spoke to a business man in connection with this matter. I told him that this ''"as the law, and this is what will happen if the Commissioner administers the clause when it is passed. I know there is a certain elasticitv in the administration of the Act. •

Ji1·. Maxwell.]

1222 Stamp Acts [ASSEMBLY.]

The TREAS"GRER : " Elasticity " is a good word.

Mr. MAXWELL: I realise t-here is elasti­city and that a .discretionary power is given to the individual administering the Act.

The TREASURER : He is given no discre­tionary power.

Mr. MAXWELL : This business man in­formed me that he is continually telling one individual to stamp receipts in acknowledg­ment of cheques he sends him, but this indi­vidual will not do it, and that has been going on for a long time.

The TREASURER: Give us his name and address.

Mr. MAXWELL: I am not an informer. I come from too good a stock to be an informer. But that. is not the point. Like other hon. members on this side, I am not standing for anybody who is evading the law, but merely for a simplification of things. We want to give people to understand t.hat certain things are to be done, yet at the same time we do not want the introduct-ion of pin-pricks to harass people in their busi­ness. As was pointed out by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the very man who obeys the law is to be penalised because some obstinate individual disobeys the law and refuses to stamp a receipt. I hope the Treasurer will be reasonable and accept an amendment.

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): The Treasurer might well take notice of the remarks made by the Deput.y Leader of the Opposition in regard to this matter. The whole trouble will be as to what is really meant by the words-

" or in the case of a person making a payment where a receipt therefor would be liable to dut.v does not demand such receipt or negligently fails to obtain the same."

What is the interpretation of the Commis­sioner as to the words " negligently fails to obtain the same" ? Thousands of cheques are sent out in the ordinary course of busi­ne's throughout Queensland, and, of course, the proper thing is to acknowledge the receipt of t-hose cheques.

The Tm:ASURER: Did you ever see in busi­ness letter the words " Kindly acknowledge receipt"? That is all that is necessary.

Mr. TAYLOR: I am glad to have the Treasurer's a;,~urance that that is all that· is necessary. I am satisfied with that. I do not see why a business man should subject himself to any penalty becau~e an individual does not acknowledge receipt of money t-hat has been sent to him. There would be a good many difficulties connected with that. The origin of the insertion of the word " Order " on choqm s was that business firms transmitting cheques per medium of the Post Office knew there was a likelihood of those cheques being miscarried. That word was inserted in cheques many years prior to the imposition of stamp duty on receipts. It means that, if the cheque get.s into wrong hands, before the individual can negotiate that cheque he has to sign the name of the payee on the back, and, if he does that, he at once commit-s forgery, which is a criminal offence.

Mr. CARTER: It is to safeguard the bank. Mr. TAYLOR: To safeguard the drawer

of the cheque.

[Mr. Maxwell.

Mr. DEACON (Cunninglwm): We can see· now just what the Government are after. They are out to make dairy companies· collectors for the Government., as all dairy companies. when making a payment for cream, must obtain a receipt on which is placed a duty stamp. That will be good news for the Labour farmers, and I want t•o con· gratulate the Government in that regard.

Mr. HARTLEY: Why should they not put stamps on their receipts ?

Mr. DEACON: The dairy company is only acting as t.he farmer's agent.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order l Order!

Mr. DEACOK: 1Jnder this clause the· dairy company is compelled to collect stamp· duty.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Order!

Mr. DEACON: It is so. Everybody who· makes a payment is to be compelled to see that a receipt is given and a duty st.amp put on it. He is to be a collector for the Government. That is the real effect of this· clause, and that. is what we object to. We· say that in all these things there is only one transaction--

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order!. Order!

Mr. DEACON: It should not be compelled to bear double stamp duty.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order!: Order!

Mr. DEACON: It is not a fair proposit.ion to compel any agent to demand a stamp· duty from his principal when he has already given cne to the purchaser of the goods. It is not a fair proposition, and members of the Government know it.. If a man in your· employ is sent to collect money and he brings back a number of cheques, no receipt is required.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMA:\': Order l Order!

Mr. CARTER: That is not t·he same thing.

Mr. DEACON: It is the same thing. You are making the employee a collector for the· Government.

Mr. CARTER: No.

Mr. DEACON: The hon. member for Port Curtis is looking at it from the point of view of a second-hand book seller. (Laughter.)

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. member does not discuss t·he clause I shall be compelled to ask him to resun1e his seat.

Mr. DEACON: I have been .discussing the clause.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Order!

Mr. DK\CON: I will read the clause. It says-

" .After the word ' not ' in subsection two of section seventy-one of the principal Act, the word ' forthwith ' is inserted."'

The section referred to will then read :-" If any person-

(1) (2) In any case where a receipt would

be liable to duty, does not fort.hwith gin• or issue a ,:eceipt duly stamped."

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Ammdment Bill. 1223

The clausP continues-" Also, after the word 'stamped ' the

y,-ords ' or in the case of a person rnaking a payment where a r ·ceipt therefor wonlrl be liable to dutv does not demancl such rL~eipt or ne~Egcntly fajls to obtain the same' are inserted."

You sec. :\Ir. Cooper, that I am in order. (Laughter.) L~nder this amending c1nuso an ager1t wlll

be compelled to obtain a receipt. Therefore, I am quite in order in saying it is pot a fair nrOposition to any agent. l-Ie g1ves a recci)~t for money paid for goods which he sells on commission, and it i~. not fair to compd him to obtain a receipt from his principal for the balance of procecdc.

Mr. KELSO (Xundah): We now hear from the 'l'reasllrer that, if an ag·e11t in a letter asks his dient to send a receipt, it is a demand for it.

The TREARURER : Yes, and generally every letter contains the words, " Kindly acknow-1ndgo receipt."

Mr. KELSO: W c ha vc the othPr side of the case. where the account is paid into the bank by some emplo:'ee and a receipt is not grven.

The TREASGRER: You are looking for trouble.

Mr. KELSO: I am not looking for trouble. If the department want all these powers. they \Yill use them whenever they feel inclined to do so.

The TREASURER: \\'hen this thing has gone on to the extent it has done, they can't be very harsh.

!\Ir. KELSO: I am onl:: taking the Bill as I find it. It s'n's thRt a man will be liable to a penalty of £50 if he negligently f,_ils to demand a receipt for the money. I might pay a man cash, and he might be in a hurry and say he will send me a receipt. The receipt does not come, and I ask him on several occasiDns for it, but do not get it. Under this clause the onus of proof is put on me to show that I have not been negligent.

The TREASURER: It \\'ill depend on whether you have asked for the receipt. If you do not, get an acknowledgment, :·ou will not be liable if you have asked for it.

Mr. KELSO: I want to ask the Treasurer this: Is the department prepared to take the word of honour o£ a man that he has asked for a receipt and cannot get it? The Trea­surer tells us this has b0cn going on for years and there has been no harshness, but, it it comes to a court case, the judge is sworn to carry out the law as it appears on the statute-book, and does not know anything about what the Treasurer has promised.

Mr. CARTER: He obeys the law, and expects you to obey.

Mr. KELSO: It is not a fair thing to word the clause i>o its present form, because it has to be interpreted by a judge from the legal point of view The public may be put to a lot of trouble if they happen to "get intc bolts" with the Stamp Office and the law is put in motion. The onus of proof is on the man who fails to get a receipt. All he can do is to make a statutory declaration that he asked the man for a receipt and could not get it. Th<' Treasurer put up a

case in reply to an Opposition member, and held up a receipt in a case ';;·here an agent had paid in a sum of money as the proceeds uf r0nt which had been collected. Let me put a supposititious case.

The TRlfASURER: Put a better case than the one you have just put. The case I quoted \VRS not a. suppo>ititious case.

?>Ir. KELSO : Suppoee I were C'?llr,cting sc·me rent for a gentleman of the. name of "\Villiam ~lcCormack," and he mstructed me' to pay the proceeds int'? his .bankin.g account. I pay the amount mto h1s cred1t in the bank. In that particular tr";ns~etwn, and that transaction only, I am ' W 1lham J}IcCormack."

Mr. CARTER: Oh, no, ycu arc not. You a re a third party.

ThE' TRE'SeREH: Do yoa f::ty that ~.-ou arc 1ny attorney?

"'\lr KELSO: I am acfng as agent for "\Yillimn I\IcCorma~k." Jf I pay the rnone,.; in I iJav it in as ·· \Yilliarn ~lcCorrnack per r{ly~elf. I am· r~ot puttir::g it in as, a third part:.: paymellt snupl:; be~":''" I am tnc owner, act:ng '' 1th:~n the St'0~1e or n1y agcnCJ. So I do not thjnk that tl· c-xatnplc quoted by the Trcasl:lrcr \vill hold 'rater.

Mr. G. P. K\R:\'ES (1F'1r1ri _q: Th•' a~ssur ,nee given by the Trc3~urcr th ~t,

1if

the ao-ent demands that a ,receipt be sent, ,,c will be protected. to sorne cxtPnt n1cct~ the ohjec>t.ion to th? clau:3C'. If I u_ndc;~stand the Treasurer nght1y, the la \V '.'\·.ill u_e

1 ad­

ministcrc·d iu such a \Vay thnt It 1l1 be held that, if the agdlt ha' made a demand u-·1on the per"on to whom he sends t_he money f~t a receipt, he ha' protected hlmself. I v,-.tnL ho1vcver. to go a step furtl~PT and ask the Trrasurer to ('Onsidor th0 posttlon of .. ~~c man \Yho is not protectC'd-thc farnlf'r. .t.n_e n1an \Yho r.•tnit5 the ch('(lU:: ;~ protertcd ~f he makes a demand even if he doc3 not get the receipt.

:\Ir. ROBERTS: That will net cover him.

11r. G. P. B_ARNE.S: Xot atcord~ng io the "' ording of the Bill, but accordmg t? the assurance of the Treasm·et, he 1s covered. because the hon. gentleman int~r!l~·cts th-e vvord "negligently" in the or:ly way 1n which it can be and should be mt 'rprcted. !f vou ask a farmer for a r<'c'·lpt h 1' wou1d ~ay that you were insulting; him. He does not look upon the tran~actlon as a business trHnsaction in that \vay.

The TREASURER: It is not r,nly thc hrmer.

'\Ir. G. P. BAR:\ES: I am only concc'l'l1Cd a b~ut the: farn1er in this matter. Bnsir~css iTIC11

demand receipts in ordinary trans~ctw!'s and get tlwm: but the farmer thmks 1t. the most irksome matter in the world to wntc a ietwr, and. i-f the obligation were imposed on the agent in a hard-and-fast manner. he would have to send a motor car n.ll over the land <'VN:>' day of the "eck to col10ct his rccr•ipts. It is too grt~at a troublL for the farmer to send them. He has l!reiduated in a .different srhool. and it i~ going- to. IJe .an exrccding1y tr~ ;ng thing 1 ) g;9t recc1pt.;; from him. I suggest that somcthmg dwuld be clone to meet the po,;ition-somcthing, perham. like the receipts for wheat cheques '"'·hie h. ha Ye been mentioned. Then "'" ha YO

to remember that the State Produce Agency sends out account sales, and no receipt duty is demanded there.

The TEMPORARY CHAIR!\IAK: Order:

Mr G. P. Barnes.)

122-i Stamp Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Ame11dnumt Bill.

::\1r. G. P. BARKES: The competition is unfair in that sense. I an1 b1ad to know that the sender of the cheque can protccL hin1self hv n1akin!2· an ordinary u1urtrou~ demand for a rerei!Jt, but that does not over­come the difficultv. because the farmer is bc'ng penalised by. the imnocitioa of another most objectionable duty. I ask the Trc a surer to endeavour to deyise a sch< me "-hich \Yill saye a gTeat deal of the trouble.

l\Ir. FERRICKS (South flrisiJanr): Much has been m~dc about the disinclination or lack of opportnnity on the part of the man in the country to write a recc;pt acknowledg­ing an an1ount of money sent to hin1 by his ::tgent. Then• may be a great deal of truth in the contention about the disinclination on the part of the man working in the lmeh to sit down at night and write a letter after a dav's wOJ"k. \Ye sometimes feel disindined 01\rspjyp, l0 do that. It appcrr.rs tO mr- that all the troubl<' could b,, saved. If an ~gent fonY.:_trding £1'J. representing th0 ...,.ulount rc,nivcd for produce sold on behalf of the fnrn1e1", affixed a dut:~ stump on 1ha b,J.<'k of the non-ncgotia ble cheque to cover the stamp duty which should he affixed to the receipt. that would bf> sufficient, and wonld ob,-iate the necessity for the recipient forwarding a ,tampon re<cipt. The ag0nt who placed the stamp duty on the cndonement side of the no!1-nPgotia b]e cheque cou]d charge the client \Yit.h the a-dditional amount. The individual in the country would not ho required to send any form of receipt, tht• mere cashing of the cheque being snfficient to satisfv him.

The qncsti~n of different p>trc~ls of prochwe being sent down 'Yas n1entioncd in the debate. An illustration was giYen of a parco] of nearly £10 heir:g split up into five c:tna11er parC'f'h•, perhaps representing just ll'eder £2 ea' h and being insnfficif>nt to attract receipt dnty. In that ca.sc no stamp duty would be> paid. Even if the £10 worth •,cere sold as one lot. it would be an cntireh separate transaction, and the ')gent sending the proceeds to tho client in tlw country would be acting rightly in charging the stamp duty necessar~ to be paid in the ordinary a.ckno\vlcdgment of mane:, rr~:oiYed. It \vas also nointed out that on some occasions a C"ustorncr ''7 ill enter R shop, pay an account of £3. and not bother a bout a rcceint. That doe>s not relieve the trad' 'man ·or hn~lncs:.; n1an from the ncC(H:.:-;i ty of paying stamp dnt:v entailed in that transa"ction. All business 1ncn n1u"'t issTJc receipts. E\·cn thoug-h the cnston11._ r n;ay not tt> ke a recC.ipt. the bnsinC'ss n1an mDst retain the butt for thC' correct crndnct of his hooks of trade. He must \Hitf> out a receipt. othcn1~isc his businc's would bo in "queer strcct.' 1 There is nothing nndu1::-· harsh abont the la>v in any shap<' or form. It has been the la11~ for some ~cars

The case of Smith of Laidle,, sending pro­duce to Bro1:'n, a bnsinc:.s man of this citv. has been mentioned. It has b.•en pointed out that. instead of Smith of L>tidlcy having the moncv ferv, arrlrd direct to him. Brown of the cit_," I'Onld deposit it in the bank to the credit of Smith and re>tain the butt of the deposit slip <es a sufficie>nt receipt, and jn that 'vay bring about .. n eva~i~~n of ~~nn1p duty. That was going on f0r somf- time nntil the department got busy on the mattu-.

The TE:\TPORARY CIL-\IR'\L\""J: Ord0r! I again point out that tlw dame deals with the demanding of a receipt upon the rar­ment of money.

[Jir. G. P. Barnes.

Mr. FERRICKS: \Yhm \Ye were working miners up North \Ve did a little speculative scrip buying, sometimes bu~~ing " forward'' and eomotimcs buying " spot." In buying " forward" the stamp duty was always charged on a cvntract, even if the scrip was sold b0fore the time-·.,·hich I believe was six weeks--expired. The broker sold on your behalf, and the scde nok was liable to stamp duty.

The TEMPORARY CHATR'\IAN: Order! Order!

Mr. FERRICKS: To come hack to the point cnncerning \vhich I first rose, I <"'~ no hardship on a -recipient of n1oney in the country doing \Yh 1t pycrybodv 0L" does--thd is, acknowledging receipt of that tnonev. Then~ is no reason \vhy he should evade stamp duty, which has boon the law of the land since 1S94.

::"IIr. DR.~\CO::\ (('·mn::,r;!. ,,n'': It would bP rnorc conven1cnt for thP rountr.r recipient of rnoney to givP a r-::ceipt for such monuy on the bal ,k of the ch0que, as ~ugg( ~tcd 1-)v the hon. member who has jwt resumed his seat. The man in the countn has not alw . .,-s duty stamps available. hut. if the stani:, \Ycrc lrnprcs::;rd on the {'}wqnc ar1d charged for, that would be more conyenient than the method suggested in the Bill. and it would ob,-iate the annovance of the threatened prrsccution that the man in the country would suffer.

Mr. J\IOORE (:1ubignp\ I beg to n'"'"'~ the following amendment:-

"On line 36. pa g _ ll. r.fter the word­' inserted,'

insert the vvords~ ' This shall not apply as hctweell a licpnscd coninii·"sion agent and a primar:-- prndncer for the sale of his product:.' "

The rnain fat tor in thi~ quf'"Ation is the obligation placed on the jlcr,on making t.he pa:ment to ckmand a receipt. A certain custmn has prcYrriled brt'-'··c,,:n acrcnts and principals up to the prc· "llt. and it is with a view to p0rpt tuating th;=d rustoJT! that T move the amcndrnPnt. It 1s only Yf'it"'-Or:ab]e thflt a practicf' whirh lu~~ lH'0\:Rilcd un to the present shouJd ht: allowed to cont.-in ne. It will not cxc mpt tlw indivdual !'able to stamp duty. but it IYill c< •·t.<tinlY pro;,-"-t ih•• agent in so far as hP '.\ill not he comidered negligent in obtaininv a rPcr-ipt. If the Govcrnrnent desire to chase hirn aronncl in order to exact the last ~opncr ont of him. that will b<' their lookout; bnt the dntv of a tax-<rathcrer should JlC'' be imnosed on the< agent; that is the nosiiion in ,\·hich this clansc seeks to place the agent.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. j',icCormack, C'airn.1) : It is just as \Yell to investigate the lng-ic of th~ nnwndmcnt. Th0 la-,,- is that evPrYonc f'ha11 J1f!Y ~tarnp ilutv ou ccrtai11 t~ansa--t]onf Ffcrr> \VC h:-t,.P an amcnrlmcnt pronosNl that the la,y ,h,JI not be <:nforccd av.ainst. a c Ttain rla~s of pcoplr.

:\/fr. l\fORCAX: }lt_1s it C'Y('T be-en 0nfe:·cl J?

]\Jr. VYARREX: It hr<; net: been thf' la"··

The TREASURER: It is the law. This dause rloes not alter the liability. Is it fair to sav that a certain section of the communitv is to "be given permission to evade the law f

Stamp Acts [20 OcTOBEH.] Amendment Bill. 1225

!\Ir. }1oonF: The ask for p0rrnissjon to eYade the law.

a~~1cndment doe~ not for a ccnaiu ~ection

The TREA.S-CREH: Fancy in.•.( ni·1g a section in the Cri1ninal Code, and 1hen add­ing "This shall not. apply to certain nlt'lnhers o£ the C0Illll1Ullity . . ,

::\1r. :1IoonE: You put in an 'Komntion.

The TREASURER: This is not an ex· emption. It is th0 la·, that upp!ics to

PYcryone in the com1nunityJ and the hou. n1cm.ber i;:; asking that it be not enforced. Th .. t is the gist of the an;endment.

:\lr. :;l.loORE: The amendment does not sav so. It says that the agent shall ll')t he' rna<~~ a tax·gathcrer.

The TREASl:RER : The agent lns to obtain a receipt from the man for whom he sells produce. Let us fo!lm· the logic-or lack of lo~;"ic-of the amendment.

:\Ir. MORGAN: There is a reason for it.

The TREASURER: If the Committee dc;;;ir( such an arnendmcnt, there is a. proper way of doing it; but to propose it in the form of i.his amendment is to 'av that the re·-t of the rommunitv shall be liable if thev do not a>k for a receipt' but that tt,c man \Yho eugaf!es in sornc !'pccia.l bup,lness is not to come within the law. That is extra·

ordinary, to say the least of it. [11.30 a.m.] In thie amendment "·e are not

dealing at all with the question of taxation. \Ye are exempting privileged indiYiduals engaged in certain bu.~incsscs from doing what everyone olse is compelled to do. Cons<'qucntl:-c I refllSe to accept the a.nJenclrnent.

Mr. l\iORG AN (J/ uri/la) : I am verv sorrv that the Treasurer refuses to acce!1t rh~ amendment. VIe know that in "!! Acts certain exev1ptions apply, and there is no reason why an exemption such ae this should not apply when the Bill becomes law.

The TREAScRER: Exemptions from obeying the law? That is \Yrong;.

:\Ir. :MORGA:'\: An excmptioE onl:- so far as the application of the law is concerneJ. \Y (' ask for an cx:0mption so far as ~t.ampi11g these receipts is concerned. It is generally conceded that in the past the primar5· pro­ducer has not plar,•d stamps on receipts for cheques for his produce.

The TK\clPOR~'<RY CI-IAIR:\1A::\ : Order !

:\fr. MORGA::\': T:he Governrmnt ha Ye nor enforced what the Minister says rs already an Act of Parliament.

The TREASL'RER: Have we not alv ays 0nforced it?

:\Ir. 2\lORGA:\: \Ye say it has not been done. It is generally admitted that it Ls uc" been done.

The TREAS llRER: It has been " f~~nerally adn1itted " onlv ;;;incc \YC ~tartc'd discuc;,·Jing this Bill. ·

::\Ir. MORGA::\f: I can confidently claim that not 5 per cent. of the primar~· proclucNs place stamps on receipts for chcqu~s for their produce.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMA:\: Order!

::Ur. MORGAN: \Vc ars asking that a cer· tain exemption be made applicable to the

primary producer. It is realised that there are many reasons why such an exemption shonlcl be allowed.

Gcnera!L· farmers have no duty stamps available. , Businecs conditions amongst farmers are ioteJly different from busi­nr· s conditions existing amongst a cite popu­lation, where it is necessary to have all con­,·eniences available. This clause "ill place a verv serious tax and inconvenience, upon peopl~ '" ho a.t present arc bParing more than their fair share of the taxation of the State. The amendment moved by the Le<der of the Opposition. if accepted, would give a little relief which could well be granted by the Trea"Hcr, and w,hieh would not unduly affect the administration of the Act.

Mr. \V. A. RUSSELL (7Jalby): I support the amendment for the simple reason that it would clea.r up the position. At the present tin1c: thG primary producer hu ;;, to pay twice, and I contend ihat sometim<'' he has to pay thrlcP---once direct and once thron~h hls agent and then again when the money is paid to his credit in the bank.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order !

J'1Ir. W. A. RUSSELL: 'fhis amendment "·ill not altogether relieve the primary pro­ducer, because his agent will still have to pay the tax; but it will clear up the position, and hG q·ill not have to pay a second time. For that reason I haYe much pleasure in sup­porting it,

Question-That the words proposed to be inserted in clause 31 (M~r. Jfoore's amend­m cnt) be so inserted-put; and the Com­nc.ittcc divided:--

Mr. Appcl Barnes, G. P. Barnes, W. H.

, Bell , Brand

Clayton , Costello

Deacon , Edwards , Fry , Kelso , King , Logan

AYES,2G.

Mr. Maxwoll l\1oore M organ Nott Petcrson Roberts

, Rus,ell, H. ilL , Hussell, W. A. , (,>"'·ayne ., Tay!or

Walker \Varren

Tellers: Mr. Relso an!'l )lr. VV,neP ...

Mr. Barber Betlfur,l

Bertram Bulcock Carter Ccilins Cooper, W, Dash Dunstan Farrell Ferricks Foley

, Gledson Hfi.nson

.. Hartley llynes

, Jones Tell err.:

::"\o~;:·: :~ t. Mr. Kir\t an

Larcornbe , Llewe!yn

Lloyd McOormack Mullan O'Keefe Payne Pease Tiiordan Ily~n. H. J_ Smith ~topford \Vellington \Vilson Winstanley Wright

Mr. D:1"h and :\lr. Pa1re11.

RPsolved in the negative.

Clause 31 agreed to.

Clause 32-" Amendment of section 80-Remrdy u·here insufficient duty has been paid "-agreed to.

Jfr. W. A. Russell.]

1226 &amp Act1 [ASSK\IBLY.j Amendment Bill.

Clause 33-" Amendment of Schedule I.­Stamp duties on instrurnents "-

Mr. MOORE (A·ubi{!nJI) : I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On line 48, page 11, after the word­'repealed'

insert the words-' The following exemption is inserted undei· the said heading:-' Every instrument for the appoint­ment of a trustee or h·ustoos of pro­perty held in trust for any corpora­tion or body of persons associated for religious, charitable, or educational purposes.' ''

Under most Acts those bodies are exempt from rates and taxes, and it is only reason­able that their trustees should be exempt from the pa::ment of stamp duty. They are only statutory trustees, but they do a good deal of work without receiving any emolu­ment for it. Trustees of grammar schools und other bodies, for instance, should be exempt from this extra charge. I do not think it will interfere with the object in view in any \.V ay whatever These trustees arc appointed for purpo,··s which the Government insist upon.

The TREASURER: They have a legal stand­ing. The State provides everything that 1s nec0ssary in regard to these appointments, and why should the instruments not carry duty?

Mr. MOO RE: Other trustees get ··omething for the performance of their duties, but these people get nothing.

The TnEASURER: The trust. pays it. Some one must pay for the upkeep of Govern­ment to give it the legality necessary.

Mr. MOORE : Who is going to pay for the a ppomtment of trustees for recrca tion rc­scrv"' and other instrumentalities?

The TREASliRER: The local authority.

Mr. MOOTIE: The local authoritv has nothing to do with it in man v cases. These· ar0 bodies which the Govern.ment insist on being brought in.

The TREASURER : The Deputy Commissioner says there is no alteration in the law; they pay now.

Mr. MOORE: They do not pay. The local cenwtery trustees with which I am connected fer !nstance, has nothing to pay with. (Laugh: tor., I do not know where you arc going to get the money from. I know that trustees in connection with recreation reserves and cemeteries have no money for this. 'rhe Treasurer practically copied his Bill from the New South vYales Act. There is an eYemption in this regard under the ~ew South Wales Act, because thev recoo-nise that these bodies should be exempt. ~but our rrreasurcr is desirous of sccurin~ revenue so he leaves out all the exemptio~1s. '

The TREASURER: I giYe vou mv assurance that it is not being brought 'in to tax statutory trustees.

Mr. MOORE: This exemption is allowed in the other States of the Commonwealth.

. Questio~-That the words prop03cd to be mserted m clause 33 (.1£ r. JI on re's am end­rnent) be so inserted-put; and the Com­mittee divided:-

[,lJ!lr. 1"1louc.

Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H.

Bell Brand

, Clayton Costello Deacon Edwards

, Fry Kelso

,. ICing , Logan

AYES, 235. Mr. :'lfnxwell

1Ioore M organ

" ';ott, Peterson Roberts

, Russe11, H. M. ., Rus.l·f'll, \V. A. , :;;:,.,'"ayne

Tavlor Walker \Yarren

Tellers: :\Ir. Cnstello and Jir. l'ctrT·l•ll.

Mr. Barher Bedford llertram Bulcock Carter Collins

, Cooper, W. Dash Dunstan F'arrell Ferricke

, Foley Gledson Hanson Hartley Hynes Jones

NoEs, 33. Mr. Kin·rnn

Larcombe ,, Llcwclyn

)1cCormack Mullan O'Keefe Payne Pease Biord:1 n Hyan, H. J. Smith Stouford \VeilingtorJ "\Yilson \Yinstanl~_·y VVright

Tellers: }Ir. Ca,rter and \lY. P,·rric.ks.

Rc:oolved in the negative. Mr. MAX\VELL (Toowonr;): I hLg to m'we

the following amendment:-'· After line 54, page 11, after the

word-' thereof'

insert the words-' r nder the said h< ading, after the y;ord ' Exemptions' the following provision is inserted :-

'On a bill of exchange not exceed­ing £5 payable on demand or . at sight, or on presentation,. or on wh1ch no tin10 for pa vment IS expressed, the duty shall be"one penny.',.

[ realise it is impoesible for me to prevent the imposition of duty on all cheques, and I t-herefore ask that the duty be only one penny on amounts "up to £5. I consider this to Le a fair proposal. If the Treasurer will accept it, it will extend some benefit to a section of the commumty.

The TREAScRER : You had a d0cision on this matter before.

:\,Ir. :!\IAX\YELL: If t-he decision was wrong then .. I cannot sec why Jt. should. not be put right. There are md1v1duals m a small \vay of business who pay their accounb bv small cheques. They have to pay _all k~nds of taxation and subject to pin-prickmg irritations. The amount involved in accept­ing t·he amendtnent is not very large.

:Hr. KI='JG (Logrm): Did the Treasurct· indicate that he was prepared to accep\ the an1Pnrhncnt?

Th0 TREAS"CRLR: Does tny demeanour ~n this Bill lead vou to believe that I woul<l accept it? "

Mr. KI::\G: The hon. gentleman will not accept any amendment3~ ho\YCY,"r reasonable.

The TnE.\SURER: There are much more rea onable amendments than this.

Mr. KIJ'\G: This is a vcrv reasonable amendment. It is ~imply f~llowing the

Stamp Act' [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Hill. 1227

principle contained in the present Act with relation to receipts. The duty on receipts of a.mounts from £2 to £5 is only 1d., a.nd from £5 to £50 it is 2d. Why not apply the same principle here?

The TREASURER: \V ill you agree to in­creased duty on cheques beyond £50?

Mr. KING : No. The TREASURER: You ask for the appli­

cation of the principle when it means a. reduct-ion.

Mr. KING: Exactly. The TREASURER: That is not a principle

at all. Mr. KING: The receipt duty is on a

definite footing. This is only a fair amend­ment, and will a.pply more to the small man than to those in afliuent circumstances.

Quest-ion-That the words proposed to be inserted in clause 33 (M·r. J.faxwell's amend­ment) be so inserted-put; and the Com­mittee divided:-

Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. p,

Barnes, W. H. Bell

u Brand , Clayton ,, Costello

Deacon ., Edwarda

Fry , Kelso , King , Logan

Tellers: Mr.

An:s, 26. Mr. )Iaxwell , Moore , Morgan , JSott

Peterson ,, Roberts , R ussell, H. M. , Ruscell, W. A .

Sizer Swayne.

, Taylor , Walker , Warren

Nott and Mr. Sizer.

Noi+;s, 3-±. Mr. Barber Mr. Kirwan

Bedford , Larcombe , Bertram , Llewelyn ,, Bulcock McCormack

Carter .,, Mullan , Oollina , O'Keefe u Cooper. "\'\ ,, Payne

Dash , Pease Dunstnn " Riordan

, Farrell Ryan, H. J. , Ferricks Smith

Foley , Stopford , Gledson ,. Weir

Hanson ., Wellington Hartley , Wilson

, Hynea ., Winstanley .. Jones , Wright

Tellers: Mr. W. Cooper and Mr. IIartley.

Resolved in the negati,-e.

Mr. W. A. RUSSELL (Dalby): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" After line 54, page 11. after the word-

' thereof,' insert the words-

' Under the said heading. after the word "Exemptions," the vvords " in case of cheques issued by any buttf'r or cheese or bacon factory in pay­ment to suppliers for primary pro· ducts manufactured at such factories, the duty shall be 1d." a.re inserted.' "

These payments made to suppliers are really in the form of wages which are pa.id every month and do not amount to a great deal so far as taxat-ion purposes are concerned.

The imposition of the suggested [12 noon.] tax becomes a direct ta..x on their

produce, which I consider harsh treatment. An est-imate of the cheques sent out by these factories discloses the number to be in the Yicinity of 250,000 to 300,000

annually. If this rebate were granted, it· would mean something in the vicinity of £1,200. If that amount has to be borne by the primary producer, he cannot pass it on, a.nd it affects the value he receives for his cream and other product-s. The Treasurer must be aware that dairy companies are having a very hard time at present and are finding it difficult to carry on, and also that the primary producer is suffering tremen­dously. Instead of receiving any concessions, the primary producer is continually being loaded with extra taxation in every shape and form. With high rents and high taxation the man on the land is suffering very severely indeed, and I shall be very pleased if the Minister can see his way clear to accept this amendment as a slight relief to the primary producer and as an indication of some consideration from t-he Government.

The 'l'REASURER (Hon. W. McCormack, CaiJ·ns) : The position is not as stated by thC' hon. member for Dalby. No doubt the hon. member is doing a little electioneering per medium of this amendment.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That is not so. The TREASURER: The hon. member is

not concerned about t-he actual application of the principle he is enunciating in his amendment. As a matter of fact, all wa.ges cheques carry a stamp duty, even if for 10s. only.

Mr. W. A. RussELL: The employers pay that. and the wages received are net.

The TREASURER : If you pay the em­ployee of a butter factory his week's wages by cheque, does not the cheque carry a stamp?

Mr. MORGAN: We are not talking about that.

The TREASURER: That is all right, so long as I understand the position. It would not work very sat-isfactorily, and, as admitted by the hon. member, the amount involved over all the activities that could be grouped under the headings he mentioned would only be £1,200.

Mr. \V. A. RusSELL: There is not much to lose.

The TREASURER: The only argument in favour of the amendment is that those people would gain something. It would be a great nuisance to the banks and the people operating, and it would cost them more in checking these things than the £1200 saved. I rose to inform hon. mem­be~s, if they do not know it already, that the hon. gentleman only moved this amendment as a little bit of political propaganda.

Mr. WARREN (Jf ur1'Um ba) : I do not think the Treasurer is quit-e fair to the hon. member for Dalby. The hon. mem­ber has proved that. he is very sincere in trying to bring about better conditions for the primary producers. No doubt he has

'come in close contact with the small men, and that has shown him that it is necessary to do all we possibly can to reduce the taxation on the primary producer. The question is whether it is a proper thing not to inc,·'lase tbe burden on people who already are paying too much, and I think the hon. member for Dalby is to be con­gratulated on trying to secure some relief for the already oppressed primary producer. The Treasurer is prepared to drag from the people's pocket·., every penny he can.

Mr. Warnn.]

1228 Stamp Act8 [ASSEl\IBLY.] Amemlment Bill.

The TRE.\Sl'RER: I have had splendid help from the Opposition. They have shown me where evasions are taking place.

~Hr. WARREN : I am very glad he is getting help from the Opposition, but I do not think the help he is gett.ing from his experts is any good so far as the pro­ducer is concerned, and the help he is getting from his own side is not worth much. :Yiembers on the Government side are not here for the good of Queensland, but for t.he good of the worker, while I am here for the good of the producer.

Mr. FERRICKS: Is he not a worker?

:.VIr. \VARREN: He is a worker, but a di!Ierent. kind of worker.

The TEMPORARY CHAIR:.VIAN: Order! Order!

The TREAS1JRER: The general community carry a lot of taxes to help the man on the !and.

Mr. WARREN : I do not think any other community is doing anything t·o help the man on the land, and, when we have an amendment to relieve the producer of extra burdens, it is our duty to try to induce the Treasurer to accept it.

11r. MORGAN (Jiurilla): When t.he Trea­surer refused to accept this amendment he v, as only tru(' to a princi1Jlc he enunciated sDnle tin1e ago 1Yhen he said that the man on the land deserved to bo hit.

The TREAS''HER : I did not say that·; it is absolutely untrue.

l\lr . .:\IORGA::\': \Ye know that that has appeared in the press.

The TE:\IPORAHY CIIAIR~\IAN: Order!

:1Ir . .:\lOHGAX: This Bill i•· going to hit the man on the land. \V e on this side aro cndC'aYouring to relieve hirn from sornc of his burdem. and to place t.lw bnrden of taxation. jf it is required, on the sl1ouldcrs of those who arc bE'tter able to bear it. ThE' producer is the least able to bear the burdens vd1ich have been plac£•d on tne community during t.hP last fc.,, year~. 'That is noticeable owing to the fEtct that people are leaving the land and going into the cities and tmm~. · A ]wan burden wili be placed on the producer Ly a measure of this description. \Vhen 'Ye endeavcur to assist. the producer, the Treasurer asks us to sit down, and accuses us of doing it for political purposes. \Ve honestly think that the taxation on the farmer al read.. is too great. and we wish to afford him some relief. \Ve are speaking for the people we represent. when we endeavour to get the burden of taxation removed from those who are least able to bear it.

The TREAS'CRER (Hon. \'Y. McCormack, Cairns) : I hope you will allow me, Mr. Cooper, althoug-h I may be out of m·der, to correct the statement made bv the hon. member fer l\Iurilla and circulated bv t.he party opposite per medium of pamphlets that I said that the man on the land deserves to gPt •' the boot." \Vhat I did sav was that t.he. man on the land who dummied selections deserved the treatment the Government were meting out to him, and to twist that to the effect that I said that the man on the land deserved to get " the boot "--

Mr. ~IORGA:-i: I said " to be hit."

[Mr. Wa1·ren.

The TREASURER: The reference to dummying has been cut out. \Vhat I said was that the man on the land who is dummying deserves the t.rcatment whicll the GoYcrun1cnt were n1eting out to hin1.

:VIr. DEACON (Cunningharn): The man who pays wages is to be called upon under these propo;als to pay more stacup duty, but "~;e n1ust rcn1ember that on the average the fanner does not get any 1norc remunera­tion than the nun to whom he is paying wages.

::\Ir. ED'iYARDS (_Tanango): I hope the T1·easurPr will reconsider his decision with regard to this amenchncnt. I am satisfied that, if he was fully conversant with the dist-ress the small producers are going through at the present time, he would not increase the burden of taxation upon them. It must be quite clear to everyone that under the drought condit-ions which have existed co-operative dairy con1panies caunot continue to carry the burden of taxation. I would ask the Treasurer, in the interuts of the smail man-bet·'luse, after all, that is t.he man who will receive a big blow from this lOO per cent. increase in taxation-to recon­side<' the position. The primary producers cften send or receive horn their co-operative company cheques for £2.

:1lr. CosTELLO: Very often less.

}lr. EDWAHDS: VE'l'y often less, and every penny on that· cheque is ,m extra burden to him and his family, and hon. 1nen1b~r." on the othPr side, by refusing a1ucndnwnt~ of this de~cription, are loading the primary producer to such an extent that it will be impossible for him to cont.inue to produce the wealth of this countr}. I . do not think the Treasurer is justified in makrng what might be termed a joke of the amend­Iuent, '\Yhich \''a~ put forward se1·iously t.o help the prod ne"'· vYhen he ?;ot up to speak hC' si!nply said that the hun. n1e1nbcr for Dalby had pl·oposed the newndmcnt for I)r!litic:tl pul'l18ses.

J.Ir. C'osTELLO: Dirty ! ::\lr. ED\YAHDS: If we carry that suggcs.

tion to it·S logical conclusion, 'Se 1ni;;'ht say -that every man \vho Slleaks in tl1is Chamber ::;pcili:s for politicEtl purposes, and the ~...,rea­~urc·r cPrtainly is not carrying out the dutit., vf his office in n::aking such a suggc ti::n1 when men on this side are anxious h help thooo who are pract.ically down and out. I can assur·e him that in many districts the small fa£nH'r is not able to m00t his interest pay­llwnt~. \ud we as 1(-'gi::;lators should be doing all we ran to keep such Illell on the land. \Ye can do it in only one way-that. is, by relieving them of some of the burdens t.hey are carrying.

:'llr. COLLI:--;s (Baw{f!): Anybody listening to the last speaker might come to the con­clusion that ho was in a position to speak for t-he pri1nary producers throughout Queensland. but there are on that side of the Chamber the hon. member for Mirani from North Queensland and the hon. member for ::\ormanby from Central Queensland, and the hon. member for Nanango can speak for the primarj' producers in a portion of Southern Queensland only. We on this side represent the primary producers of Nort.h and Central Queensland; in fact, we repre­sent a majority of them throughout Queens­land, and, if we except ten members from the metropolitan areas and a few from other

Siamp Acts [20 OcTOBER,] Amendment Bi!l. 1229

big ctntres in the South, very few men1bers "ould be left on the other side of the Chamber, although the Opposition say +hey reprccent the primary producers. Spo.lklll!' as one who does represent some of the pri­mary producers, I wa':'t to say that they are not continually groanmg and moanmg that thev arc in the ,tate of poYertv montionc·d by 'the hon. member for 2'\ana.ng·o.

Hox. IV. H. ]3"\RNES (Wynnmn): It is a great pit" that the debate has descended to its prc,ent level. I take it 1hat every ban. member should be here to do his very best m what he considers to be the interests of Queensland.

A GO\'ERX21IE:-lr ::VlE'IBER: And for the :ndus­trie.-:.

Ho:-~. W. H. BAR""ES: I quite agree. The hm1. member for Dalby, with other members on both sides, represent the farming com­nmnity-the persons who are ondeavourmg t:> develop Queensland. Some of us do t~e same thing, perhaps, to a smaller ext~nt. JHy own constituency is one that contams both industrialists and a farming community. vVe have to realise whether we like to admit it or not, that' there is g1·ave need in the countrv. \Ye have been trying very earnestly to do ~ertain things because we believe there am certain needs; and though we ha.ve failed in some of them, there is no reason why we should throw other things to one side and not try to do our job. The fact remains that there is need to-day. It 1s thrown across the Chamber that this and that do not count. The question of receipt duty has bc0n thro>' n across the Chamber. The worker very rightly is not asked to pay receipt duty.

The TE::.viPORARY CHAIRl\IA~: Order' The TREASl.JRER: He has to give a receipt.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I do not wish to proceed on those lines if you rule me out of order, 1\Ir. Cooper. The amendment goes in the direction of relieving a certain section as against individuals who it has been sug­gested are not exempt from certain things, but who are exempt.

The TRE.ISC'RER: There 1s no cheque ,exemption.

HoN. W. H. BAR~ES: I momised that I would not get awac from tlte question.

The TRE.\E l.JRER : You have to get out of order to make an .trgument.

Hox. \Y. H. BARNES: The hon. gentle­man is always getting out of order to make an argument. The hon. member for Dalby points out-and he must surely know-that there arc certain people in the country 1n need of relief. Vi' e 9av that we arc anxious to kePp the man on the land. Are we to carry out our promise to try to keep them on the land ? If we are not, and our promise is only moonshine. let us close up, and say that we do not care a hang for the man who is trying to do his best to develop this country.

Mr. W~~LKER (Cooroora): I de·,ire to support the amendment moved by the hon. member for Dalby. He, as the representative of a big primary producing centre in which there is a big butter factory, realises the needs of the man on the land, and is trying to do him a good turn. Vi' e on this side try to do the correct thing by the primary

producers all over Queensland, and, if we can reduce this taxation by half, we shall be doing a fair thing. The Treasurer, whe_n introducing the Bill, pointed out that tlns is the most equitable way of raising taxa­tion. That may be so from his point of view, but we recognise that 75 per cent. of the farmers will havR to pay an additional ld. for receipt dut:-- and an additional ld. for cheque duty, making an additi;mal duty of 2d. on his monthly cheque. When the taxation was ld. we arr.1nged with the banks to deposit a cheque covering the pay­ment for many of the suppliers. That was clone with the object of economy, and has been the practice for some tirnf'. I '' ould like to know if that system is to be "topped, and if we shall be compelled to dl'posit individual cheques?

It is very difficult for me to proceed to obtain the information I require. I may be out of order, but the Treasurf'r was abo om of order a fe,v moments ag.J.

The TE:\IPORARY CHAilUIA0i: Order: Order:

Mr. IVALKER: The question of exernptin::; the cheques of suppliers to butter, cheese, and ba.con factories is a good one. and must appeal to every hon. member. There arc something like 2.000 suppliers to the bacon factories in Quecn··land. and the increased tax will mean something like 2,000 extra ld. duty stamps per month on those cheques. Thcr,, a r' fifty butter factories in Queensland, with an average number of 600 suppliers to each factory. This clause will mean that an addi­tional 30,000 ld. duty stamps will haYe to be placed every month on the cheques of th~e ·uppliere. There are 1,400 suppliers to the dairy company I am connected vrith, and this increased tax will mean 1,400 additional ld. duty stamps every month. Is it fair. taking into consideration all that it mE"lfiS to those factories? If those suppliers were earning over and abovP the basic \\ ag!'=' to-clay, I would say, "Let it go on "; h:t hundreds of them arc earning less th,ln the ba.Bic w-age. An::t man desirous of going 1~po:1 the land invests £5,000 or £6 000 in pro­pertv mercl3 to give him the right to wad' and earn the basic wage. That is the reason why the hon. member for Dalby has moveJ for a reduction of the stamp duty from 2cl. to le!. in the £1. vYe are not electioneei·­ing; but there is a g·oneral desire to J,elp the man on the land, believing that the burden of taxation is greater upon him than it is upon v.corkers in receipt of the basic wage in the cities. For that reason the amendment is worthy of the consideration of hon. members. If the hon. member for Bowen claims to represent the primary pro­ducers. now is the time for him to rise and protect them.

Mr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay): The amend­m·ent of the hon. member for Dalbv to reduce the duty in respect of certain persons engaged in certain industries from the opera­tions of this clause is a step in the right direction. It has been claimed that the Go­vernment have been t.he friend of the man on the land. Only last se,sion the TrPa­surer, in introducing an amendment of the Land Act, in answer to an interjertion b-.­me that he was hitting the man on the land. replied, "He needs to be hit."

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN : Order l Order!

Mr. Clayton.]

1230 Stamp Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Mr. CLAYTON: There 1s no record in " Ha.nsard " of the reply made by the Trea­surer, but the answer was duly reported in the "Courier."

GOYERN>!ENT J\IEJI!BERS: Ah : Ah !

The TEMPORARY CHAIRYl:AC\J : Order! Order !

Mr. CLAYTOK: I desire to proYe that the Treasurer actually made the statemem.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRT\1AC\J: Order! Order !

Mr. CLAYTON: This increased taxation proYes that the Treaeurer is out to hit the man on the land on this occasion, othf'rwise he would accept the amendment. vYorkers in receipt of weekly wages arc not called upon to giYe receipts for their wages. The ·-ame principle should apply to the man on !he land. Why this ·differentiation? \Yhy, by imposing this additional taxation upon the dairy1nan or the pig raiser, 'vho receiYes from a. factory wages for his labours, the <Oame as the worker in the cities receiYes wages for his labour, seeing that he is aLo subject to adycrse climatic conditions, rail­way strikes, and such like' I trust that the Treasurer "ill giYe this rnatter CYery c.:on­e.ideration, and let him prove .to the people that he is a, friend ·of the man on the !awl, and not, as the Treasurer ha•s said, say that he is a man who needs to be hit.

::\Ir. SWAYKE (;!'Iirani): A more inoppor­tune tin1c to incroa"'e the taxation of the man on the land could not be found than the present. Our statistics show that an actual decrease has taken place in land settlement. A big question that arises to-day is how to keep the young people on the land. There is a tendencv for them to drift into the citi•· , and, insteaci of increasing- taxation on pri­mary industries and so adding to the factors that discourage them, any statesman would seek in every possible way to reduce taxation in that quarter.

There is no getting away from the fact that with the increase of co-operative activities there is no opportunity of passing on this

sort of taxation. In deciding the [12.30 p.m.] price to be received for the pro-

duct, every cost is debited against the producer, and he receiyes what is left. Take the cas.e of a sugar-mill with perhaps 250 growers. They are paid twice a month, and there is a tax on every cheque. That amounts to quite a considerable imposi­tion and increases working costs. There is no need to labour the question, as every man and 'von1an in the community realises that there could be no more unsuitable time than the present to impose such an imposition.

The TE:\1PORARY CHAIR::\IA::\ : The question is--

Mr. ROBERTS (Rast Toou.·oornba): Mr. Cooper--

The TEMPORARY CHAIRJ\IAX: "That tile wor·ds proposed to be inoerwd be so inserted.:' Those in favour say "A.ve ''; to the contrary, "Xo." The "Ayes" have it.

OPPOSITION J\1EMBERS · The hon. member for East Tom,·oomba was on his feet, and he addressed the Chair.

'The TE::\1PORARY CHAIRMA:": Order! Order ! The hon. member did not rise in his place before the question was put.

[Mr. Clayton.

OPPOSITION ME;,!BERS: He did, and he addressed the Chair.

The TE::\1PORARY CHAIR::\1AN : Order r Order! The hon. member rose afterwards.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Ho did not ! He di·d not 1

The TE:YIPORARY CHAIR:YIAN : Order! Order ! The hon. m<>mber was not on his feet whe.n I put the question.

OPPOSITION ::\I[D!BERS: He was ! He was !

The TEMPORARY CHAIR:Y1AX: I name the hon. member for Kurilpa, Mr. Fry, for wilful dimbedience and defiance of the Chair.

Mr. FRY: Thank you, Yery much. That is just what--

The TEMPORARY CHAIR~1AK: Order l Order!

Mr. KING: The hon. member for East Toowoomba was standing on his feet.

:\fr. \YrNSTANLEY: He was on his feet after the question v .. s stated.

OPPOSITION ::\1K\IBERS: Ho was not only on his feet before the que'1tion was stated, but he \Vas calling out to the Chairman.

::\Ir. TAYLOR: The Secrctarv for Public Works knows that he wa' on 'his feet, an<f so do all other members on the Goy.ernment side.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC' \YORKS: A mem­ber should addrc'" the Chair when he rises.

0PPOSI'IION ME~IBERS : He did.

::\Ir. FRY: A most outrageous decision. It is just spleen.

The Hons·e resumed.

SesrENSION OF MnrBER.

The TE::\IPORAR Y CHAIRMAN : Mr. Speaker.-I have to report that in Committee I namc"d the hon. member for Kurilpa for wilful disobedience of the order of the Chair.

The SPEAKER: The Temporary Chair­man reports that in Committee he named the hon. member for Kurilpa, ::\1r . .James Porter Frv, for wilful disobedience of the order of the Chair.

Mr. FRY: I had nothing to do with the incident.

The PRE11IER (Hon. W. McCormaclc Cairns) : I n1ove-

" That the hon. member for Kurilpa be suspended from the service of the House for the remainder of the present sitting.''

J\Ir. SIZER: He did nothing.

JVh. FRY (llurilpa): I might say here that I had nothing to do with the incident, and it is simply spleen.

The SPEAKER: Order ! Order !

Question-That the hon. member for Kurilpa, Mr. Fry, be suspended from the service of the House during the remainder of the present sitting-put; and the House divided:-

In diYision-On the hon. member for Sandgate, Mr.

Sizer (who was without his coat), being seated-

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill, 1231

The SPEAKER : I call upon the hon. member for Sandgatc to retire and to appear in IJis ueual attire.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Oh, oh !

The SPEAKER: Order ! Order !

Mr. Barber Bedford

" Bulcock Curter Collins Cooper, F. A. Cooper, W. Dash Dnnstan Farrell FE>rricks Fo!ey Gledson Hanson Rartley Hynes .Ton('s Kirwan

A YES, 33.

Mr. Larcombe ,. Llewelyn

Llovd MeCormaek Mullan O'Keefe Po.yne PeasP Hiordan Hy:m. n. 1 ~mith Rtopford \Veir Wellington \Yilson \Yinstn.n lev Wright ·

Tellers: )lr. Foley and )Ir. li'-tnt<on.

Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H.

Bell Brand

,, Clayton Costello

, DC'acon , Edwards , Fry , Kelso

Kerr .. King , Logan

NOES, 27.

:Mr. Maxwell 1\'Ioore

, Morgan Nott Petf'rson

, Hoberts " Hns;:.ell. H. :\T. , Russell, W. A.

Sizer Swavne

, Tayfor , Walker , \Varn>n

Tellers: ~.rr. Brnnd atJc11IJ·. Cl:!ytoP.

Resolved in the affirmative.

I\1r. FRY (Kurilpa): I accept the division a' the judgment of the Soviet.

The SPEAKER: Order! Order! The hon. member for Kurilpa then with­

drew from the Chamber. The PRniiER : If he adds insult, the hon.

member will be suspended for the rest of the session.

The SPEAKER : During the progress of the division I asked the hon. member for Sandgate to withdraw from th0 Chamber, ae hie attire is not that usually adopted in the House.

Mr. MORGA>:: ·what power have you to do that?

The SPEAKER: Order ! I now name the hon. member for Sandgate for disobeying the Chair.

Hon. W. H. BARXES: He could not leave during the division.

The SPEAKER: Order ! I ask the hon. member to retire now.

Mr. l'LAYTON: You accepted his vote, Mr. Speaker.

The SPEAKER : Order ! If the House decides that the hon. member should not retjrec, I have no option.

Mr. KERR: ·what is wrong? It is a lot of nonsense.

j\Jr. ::\IORGAN: Mr. Gunn had his coat off on one occasion.

The SECRETARY FOR P<:BLIC \VORKS: And Mr. Speaker Armstrong promptlv made him resum.e it. ~

The SPEAKER: Order! I name the hon. member for Sandgate for refusing to obey the authority of the Chair.

Mr. MoRGAN : He could not obey your order because the House was in division.

Mr. KERR: Stop this farce!

The PRE:\HER (Hon. W. McCormack, ('uirns): The rule on the matter is as out· lined by you, Mr. Speaker, but I would suggest to the hon. member for Sandgate that he obey the order of the Speaker. It is a breach of the rules to disobey the order of the Speaker. I am reluctant to move the suspension of the hon. member for Sandgate for not wearing a coat--

0PPOSITIO:--; ME11BERS: Hea~, hear !

The PREMIER : But I shall be compelled to move the suspension of the hon. member for disobedience of a ruling of tho Chair. I suggest that until the House has an oppor­tunity of discussing the matter the hon. member should obey the ruling of the Chair. I am loath to move his suspension, but I shall be compelled to do so if discipline is to be maintained. I suggest that the hon. member should conform to the rule of the House, and we can then come to a decision as to whether the rule is to be enforced or not. I have no objection to that.

:'IIr. KELSO: \Yhat is the rule?

Th0 PRE:\IIER : It is a recognised rule that hon. mC'rnbers--

r,rr. KELSO: You have not a vest on.

The PREMIER : I do not want to discuss the merits or demerits of the case.

:'l:r. :\IoRGA~ : The whole thing is silly.

The PREMIER: I suggest that the hon. member for Sandgatc should obey the ruling of the Chair. vVe can discuss the matter after.

~h. SIZER (Sandgate): I have no desire to flout the wishes of the House, but, according to my reading of the Standing Orders, there is no rule on the point, and I accept. the Premier's snggcstion. I have no desue to flout your will, Mr. Speaker, if you object to my attire. I simply say it is paltry. I have not acted in any spirit of bravado. I was following my own wishes, and I fail to see why I cannot follow my own wishes and still conform to the rules of the House ij,nd do my duty. If you object, I will withdraw.

::\1r. HYKES: Seeking cheap publicity.

The hon. member for Sandgate then with­drew from the Chamber.

REs<::li:PTION oF CoMMITTEE. (Jlr. I'. A. Cooper, llremu, in the chair.}

Question again stated-

" That clause 33-rimenrlment of Schedule I.-Stamp rlutirs on in.,tru­mcnt.s'-stand part of the Bill."

:\1r. KI:\G (Logan): I beg t-o move the follmving amendment:-

"On lines 1 to 3, pa1;e 12, omit the ·words-

'(~) 'lhe sPcond and third 'exemp­tions' under the heading beg·inning with the words ' Bond or recognisance ~ are repealed.'"

Mr. King.]

1232 Stamp Ac:, [ASSEl\IBL Y.] Amendmnlt Billr

The amendment is designed for the purpose of preserving the exemption contained in the existing Act, which excludes bonds entered into upon grants of letters of adminis­tration in inteotatc estates from t.he pro­vision imposing stamp duty on bonds.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRi\fAX: Order ! I <tsk hon. members to cease their com·er· 'ations or carry them on in a more subdued tone. It is very difficult for the officers of the House and myself to hear the hon. member, and hon. members aee paying bnt a sm<tll compliment to the depLlt: leader of the Opposition, who cannot make himself heard.

. 11r. KING: ·I am sorry if my speaking mterferes with the conversa.!-ion of hon. mem­bers, but I have certain views to place before the Committee, and I think I am entitled to do it. The Dill proposes to delete the exempt-ion to which I have referred and make such bonds liablo to a stamp d ut', of 10s. each. I do not think it is a fair charge As I stated on the second reading of the Bill, !otters of administration are :r;ranted rnore frequently in case:-; where the c"!-ate is small and the deceased person has not thought it worth while to make a will. Only 140 grants were made during 1924. and a 10s. dutv would :vield revenue of only £70, and f am sure , the Stamp Com­nlissioner does not vvant to ·worrv about such a small amount. This is a' matter which applies t-o persons in poor ctrcum­stances rather than to persons in affluent circurrlStunccs. Taln~ the case of a Vi'Onlan

who has lost her husband.

l\!r. Cor.u:-.rs: 'I'he poor wido\v again!

Mr. KING: Yes, and that is the point I want to impres~ upon hon. members. Her husband had a small property worth £600 net. He dies int-estate, and she applies for a grant of letters of administration, as she mubt do before the title can bo vested in her. I -hall tell hon. member, just what fees sho has !o pay-

Valuation fee • Advertising Filing pet-ition Affidavit bv administration Filing adrr{inistra!ion bond Filing affidavit sureties Search for caveats, orders of

adn1inistration, or notices of election ·

Affidavit of search Sealing grant Administration dutv Succession duty .... Request to record tr<tnsmi"ion Registration fee .. Assurance (halfpenny in pound

to Master of Titles) Advertising (Real Property

Office) Checking fee

£ s. d. 3 3 0 2 0 0 0 2 6 0 2 6 0 5 0 0 2 6

0 5 0 0 2 6 0 13 0 6 0 0 6 0 0 0 2 6 1 0 0

5 0

2 0 0 0 2 0

Total £23 5 6

The TREASURER: What does chr> pa·· the solicitor for carrying out t.hat duty 9

Mr. KIKG: I think the s~ale of costs allowe-d by the Supreme Court rules providrs a. fee of £7 7s. That is not included in the £23. On top of this £23 5s. 6d. you now propose to charge 10s. on the bond and. a further 7s. 6d. on the request for transmis-

[Mr·. King.

s10n. Do vou not think that \ ou ha ye cnoug·h fees: I had a ca.se in whic'h t.he Go­verumcnt forced a widow to pay about £24 out of pocket before she could secure the title to an estate of a value of £600.

The TREASCRER: The law makes her pay that.

:\lr. KI.0JG: Ye'. and the Government make~ the law. You are making the burden he a Yier by imposing additional fero. It is not fair, a11d, in view of the small an1ou:-~t that the Con11nissioncr will receive~ I t:on­::;ider it is not \Yorth it.

The TREASCRER: \Vhv do , ou not include tran1 fare-s? ~

Mr. KE\G: These arc fees that she must pay before she can secure a tit le to the pro­rwrt·:. I am in earnest about this. I do not appeal to sentiment in any shape or form. I am simply putting hon. members in a posi t:ion to judge whether it: is a fair charge in all the circumstances. \Vhere the property i,-:; worth more, higher fees are charged. The admini3tration dut:· is 1d. up to £1.000. The per.'on would have to pay all these fees. l ask the Treasurer to accept the amend­lncnt.

i\lr. TA YLOR (TFind.<or): After the list of chftl'ges which tlhe Depun Leader of the Opposition read out to the Committee the l]_~reasurer n1ight accept the anu~ndrnent to delete these three lines. The Treasurer said. by way of interjection, when those charges were being cited. that the:. wore not Covern1ncnt charges but \Vcrc charged undt:"r I he la,-,- uf the land. Tlto ( +ovcrnment are t·eall.v responsible fur the la-.: of the land. and for the introduction of taxation mea­snrcs. These tremend0us costs. as outlined by our Deputy Leader, should be eliminated. Thev are not fair to the individual. These can~ he charged against the higher ostatos, if the Government wish. but to load estates worth from £500 to £600 \Yith such costs is not fair. The case made out by the Deputy Leader of t.hc Opposition is one which the Treasurer mav vcrv well consider. The Treasurer dor~ not" hold office as a tax­gatherer only, but he evidently thinb he is. and the Gon•rnment cvidenth· think they are in power simply to extract' all the money they can out of the people. \Y c have sai'.l on a number of occc:sions, and I intend to say it again. that. if on!" foresight had boen exercised in the expenditure of n1one..:, there would have been no necessib- for this increased taxation. '

Mr. KERR: Hear, hear :

Mr. TAYLOR: That foresight has not been exercised, and the result is that this taxa­tion is required to meet the deficits which have been piled up for a number of yea1·s past. The wry thing that has happened in previous yea.rs is bound to happen again.

The TREASURER !Hon. \V. Mcl'ormack. Cairns): If the position were exactly as the hon. member for Logan has outlined, the arguments of hon. members opposite woul•I be all right; but the position is not as was stated.

Mr. KnG: Tell me where I am wrong.

The TREASURER: Th" hon. gentleman is only f'ndeavouring to make out a case.

l\Ir. KIKG: I am not.

The TREAS'GRER: The !ton. member said tha.t. if a person made a will, many of

Stamp Ads [20 OCTOBER.] .Lnendment Bill. 1233

tlw charges which he outlined would not occur. ~[ lH' £6 hC' nwntioncd for a.dnlinistra­tion dtlt.V would 110t then be payabk.

1\Tr. KT:\G: The £6 would be payable in prob<tle duty.

The TREAS"l~RER: It \Yould not be pay­aLlt• ctl ,,]].

.:\h. K l:\G: )d1 est a tc up to £300 only 1s exC'l11J'1t· frou1 probate duty.

Tlw THEAS(~Ri~H: There no need to g-o alt round the country, as thr hon. n1omber ~~~p~~~~~~cl,. in adrni:1istcring a.n estate valued

1\lr. l(rXG: Jt is very necessary.

ThP TREASCRER: ThPre is no noecl for it. 1 f a ,olicitor likes to go here and there and make a chnr,;c of 7s. 6d. for the pcrmal of tl!B and that doeurncnt--

~lr. KJ~G: Ther~· were no f'olicitors' charg --; incJud0d in n1y staten1ent.

Th. TREASPRER: I know that, but many of tht'Se cases compel the t'olicitor to go io the Supreme Court and he charges to go th0rr.

.Mr. Krsc: You are wrong.

. The TREASCH.El1: I ha Ye ju't been tnforrncd that an estate has be0n adn1iuis~ tcTcd without taking out. probate at all. and the' cost w'u nothing like what the· hon. member outlined.

J\lr. KING: Quite so.

The TREASURER: The nse taken bv the hon. member is not a fair illustra.tion of the charges. It no doubt happened, but it is an exag-gerated cat'e. and, beca11se it hap­pened in one case, thn t is no reason w,hv thr Gov.Prnnlcnt should fo1~go tho. o ch.trg~s in aJI mstancc-. The amount of the charges to adrmmstrr an estate for £600 under ordinary circum~'tanccs is £9 lls.

[2 [l.lll.]

-:\ir. KI:\'G (Lo!lan): The Treasurer seemed to eFt so.ne doubt upon the figures I gave. f \VaS df'a1ing with adnlinistrat·ion and those' figures arp absolutely correct. The fees are prescribed by rules of court on documents which are ordered by the rules of court to be lodged in connection with the adminis· tration of the Act. There is no escaping the pa,·ment. of those fees nor the preparation and filing of those documents.

Then the Treasurer quoted the case of a will. I was not quoting the case of a will but the case of administration. I know perfectly well that nndet• a will it is not. necessary to apply for probate where only land i:, conrPrncd. and therefore there fs no nr>ccssit:,· to pR.y probate dutv or fees. You sitnply lodge a rcqu(>,t to e1;tor b·a.ns~ mission and the will at the R.P. Office. DocunH:>nts filed in the registry in tbc case of an administration hear p;·actieally the same fees as those filed in conrwchon \Yith pro'.>at•.'. with the exception thQt with probate it is not nr·~cs~ary to ha vc a bond or an affidovit of jmtification by the sureties. The fee> an• 7'. 6cl .. 5s. <m the bond and 2s. 6d. on tlw affidrn-it of justific:Jtion. I giYe that information beeaUSP I do not want my facts distorted and I de·•. ire to- justify nn· position. The Treasurer also spoke of solicitor,' ~hargrs. . There are no solicitors' charges mvoln•d 111 the hst of fees g·i,en. These fees are charged bee a use the ,:ules of court compel that they shall be paid, and those

1926-4 G

clonmwnto. arr lodged becau»e lhe rulu. of court .state t!wv haYe to be fi!Pd. They arc not /ilPd for ·fun, bnt because the,- are ncc0ssa1 .~ and prescribed by rules of cOurt.

The TRE.iSliRER: That is in the ca.·e of there being no \Yill.

J.Ir .. K_ING: Yes, bf'Cause in the adrninis­n·ation the bone! a)1lolies only whe1·e there is no \Yill or \Yhere th{'re is a will and no exc{'v_hJr to 111'0\ e the \vill, in \Yhich case it \vonld be a graHt of ad!n1ni'3tration 1rith t.lle will anr:pxcd. I \\'as dealing with adminis­tratioll hon(b ancl not with testate t statr"3. Tho'c fC'e' a'T dr mandcd bv rule· of conrt. I nc>ycr exaggerated one ite~ ;1. As a n1atter' of h. t. I mllitied two items. a fee of 2s. on a <'l'rtificatc of death, which must be pro­duced, and finally a fee of 2s. 6cl. on filing that ccrt:ficat<' of death in the Snprorne Court which the Tules of the Supreme Court bay must be filed. I therefore omitted 4s. 6d., which is in addition to the fees I Inen­r.ionC'd.

I sin1pl:: ro-:-f' to ju:3tif.> n1y po.Jition becrruse [ am not in the ha bit of rising and sta.ting !-<OllH_ :hlng that I know is not true. I \vas pcrfPctli j w<tified in m,- previous statement ~nd a m not wrong in a singlE~ particular so tar U:' t ho:-'e figures arc concerned.

1\Ir. :UOORE (A.ubigny): The hon. member for Logan inti1natcd that only seventy of thPse ce:L~P:-i have been taken out in twelve month~. That. is a very small nun1ber, and it _s ern-.; to rnc' the Governn1ent a1:e cutting thmgs pr<'tt:· line in their effort to secure monc·:v when they tax things of that. sort. The Trcamre1·, when speaking yesterday, mid that the ba·,.is of taxation was not a q<lestion of g-etting all they could, but of the ability t·> pay. I do not think the quc·tion of ability to pay has been very carefully considered in the case quoted by the hem. member for Logan. The amend­ment would not mean the loss of any groat amount of revenue, but it \\·ould lllhln the rcn1ova l of a burden that. is going t-o be placed on people who are deserving of a cer­tain aJnount of protection and conP.idl'ration. I do not think it is quite a fair thing that this pron'l0!1 should be pa-'sed considering the small <emount of revenue t.hat will be obtained under it as compared with tho h,,rdship it will c·ntail. The hon. me·nber for L<:>gan gaYc a list of the fc0s payable, and he ha· ,hown that the Crown does prettv well ollt of these cases. It. is only in er rt'1in cas0r;;:, that these bond·" are required; n.JJd the Trc~asnrer ~hou1d co1l."ider the queo;;­tion of withdrawing the proYision a11d leav­ing it as it j,-, at present.

Amendment. (Jir. Jlinu) negatived.

:\Tr. KEL~;;() (_T,mrlah): I beg to move the fcllO\Yin-; vn1('11dn1ent :-

,, On lines 4 to 10, ptg·e 12, omit the follov.-ing paragraph:-

After the provisions nnder the "(:hanu· Part-,·'' the follu\V~

ing l)rovisions ar·e inserted :-' Cnntract note rela.ting to the sale

of uw· stork or marketable securitv or rciating to the purchase of any stock or marketable security-

Fnr 0ach £100 and also for any fractional part of £100 of the vccluc-£0 0 6.' "

[ do not propose to go oyer the arguments enumerated yesterday in connection with

Mr Kelso.]

!234 Stamp Acts [ASSEl\IBLY.] Amendment Bill.

penalties, but I would point out once again that each pa1·ticular transaction of buying nnd selling stock nece:.sitatt'" three stan1p (_~utic~. l:nclcr this provi~ion the contract not<e in which the broker informs the buvcr that the stock ha· he en sold to him has· to b2" r •tamp duty; in the secDnd place, stamp Jut,· hes to be paid, as d present, on the t• msfer; and there is a third duty proposed by Lhr 'rrcasnrcr v,,hen the purchaser gets hi;:; scrip. The contract note i;-; only a method in the kU:V of writing of telling the pur· chast'r that he can have so 1nanv ~hares at a f'·l'ttdin price and that the s~'lc has been conl­p!eu•d. I think the 'IrPa5urer ;Ihould allo~v the a1nencln1P11t to be Uli'l'iPcl. be:,,~usc the ccntrc:tct note 1s part of a bu·in ..... ,;;: arr:tnge-11H'nt. L-ndcr this pl'OYision, sln1ply becaus.a therL' is a Iwbftcatloll in writing that the c.;ale has been con1plctPd~ the pur-Chaser will have to pay 6d. etamp duty for e·cer:. £100 in value.

~~lncHLhnent (JI1·. ll.tlso) llcgaii\-cd.

:\h. H. TIL RUSSELL (1'oomlwl): I beg to moYe the follmving· amendment:-

" .\.fter linr 10, p1Lge 12, after sub-clause (5) insert the \Yards·--·

' Contract notes relating t.o the sale of goods, 'vares, or n1t·rchandise (not being live stock)-

}'or each £10J-·£0 0 6. · ·' Th •.t folim• s on what I said v:hen the resolu· tions were being debated. The Treasurer at that t.imc said that a mercantile contract was not dutiable. I think that, after investi­gation, he will admit that he \vas wrong in his assertion. He 'vas evidently confusing contract notes with conveyances. I 1Yant son1e conccs;::;ion granted to n1ercantile brokers. \Ye have already decided that sharebrokers shall be taxed at the rate of 6d. for every £lOO or fraction thereof on their contract notes. 'Gnder tho present Act sharebrokers' contract nDtes bear a duty of 6d. for every £20. I am not referring to transfers of scrip, which transfers now must bear a duty of 6d. for eYer; £10. I contend that it was uever intended. by the Legislature to impose such a heavY taxation on mercantile contract notes. In no part of the world is a dutv le,·ied on such notes. It was never the iutention of the Queensland Legislature to impose a duty on them. 'There has been some misapprehension about the whole thing, and I am desirous of having this anomaly removed. Although I aeked the Treasurer

hen the resolutions -were being debated to an amcndrqcnt inserted at the tin1o,

refused because he was evidently under in1pret,.sion that contract notes ~~·ore not

duti -bll~. The TilE.ISCRER: If vou make them agree­

ntt<nb, thoy attract dUty.

:'.h. H. l'>L H'GSSELL: The hon. gentle­man said that contract notes \\ere not duti­able.

The TRE\ST:RER: I said sale notes-that is nr:rlc•r section 54 of the Act.

H. J\I. RuSSELL: I want some extended to these men who are called

upon to pa::· such heaYy im1losts on their ..... ontract notes. The dutT.· on contract notes to·day amounts to abOL]t 12! per cent. at leaet of the gross profit which the broker n1ako::: on such contracts, and it is an n noma! v which should be removed bv the Govern;,1ent. If it i:' a fair thing to give sharobrokers the exemption they are given

[Mr. Eelso.

io·clav on thc>ir coutract note~. thoug:h it i< a 'hardship to a'k them to pay 6d.-dut~· on c•Ycrv £100 or fraction thereof. still the Trt•...< -ut·~~r said proYiously tbat sharebrokors ar1cl those \\·ho dabbled in shares Y>Cre fair !mey. and could well afford to nav this rn:post · bur in n1ercant.ile trar~sa"ctions, w1ll•;_'f' rno -t. of these tntnsactions are not done fo1· ~lJCculative purposes. but chiefly by n1crchnnt:'- and otlH~r::., tbo 1nercantile co1:tract :oot' i' in a differe11t. category to the contract 11ote of a sharebrokcr. Conse­f]Ut_•ntly I \Yant the GovLrnn1cnt to recognise that this if> an irupo:3t 'vhich .should be I'ClllO\~e:J. I ::nn quite 2\Yare that the TTea­>Hrer and the Sramp Office haYe not had the trnl' hang of the situation. There has lll't'll a doubt 'rhrther contract :wtes are dutiablC> or r:or. All eonh·act. 11otcs i~sued ro-dn, brok(•r~ 1n Brisbane ha vc to be

The TnE.\SrRER : Do Lote or an agrcprnent

c d! it a contract

:01r. H. 1\I. RCSSELL: \Ye do not me the word ·· agrcornf'nt ., ; '' contract note" rs th0 proper tcnn:

The TnnSlRER: It does not matter what ~-ou call it-~·· ro:-:c by any other nmne ·will :-mcll as S\,CP~.··

Mr. IL :'.T. RCSSELL: The contract note i a docnn101~t "\.Yhich "C'ts out the conditions appcrtaiuing 10 ~-hp ::.:ale of nJcr··handi;:;-, frorn tile "'llcr to the buYer. It roniaim all the c·onc11t ions of 1hc> tr~nsaction, aud is signed iJy the buyer and the seller.

'"fhc TRE \S LRER : Then it is an agrccn1cnt .: it. is a :-ale llote.

:'.lr. H. M. HL'SSELL: It is a contract note. rl1llf're is no difference betv"·ecn a contract note for the sale of goods and one for the sale of scrip.

Tlw TREASl'RER: Could you sua under it .

:'.Ir. H. :'.L RTSSELL : Of course. The TREA '' T:RER : You cannot sue under a

contr.:,ct note.

JUr. H. iH. Ul'SSELL: Of eourse vou can It i~ Dot a conYcyancc inasn1twh as· it (!oes not Y<'St the property in either party. It is a rncrnorandun1 ~hawing the ex~., t tenns of the transaction. which binds both the buver and the seller. On that document. if either makec default. he can be sued in f· .. mrt. The clnt;: is a burden, inasmuch as jt is p~tid by the mr•rc .. ntile broker hc,·e who receives a \-crY sn1all con1mission. The n1an oYerseas ,·.-hr) sells is unaffected bv leg:islatiDn here. and rightlv Tefuccs to pa.v' dut)·. The bu~er in Bri:·cbane also rcfmes to pay the duty, but lu ... refus .... s tD sigu nnlcs'; the note is starnped in accor-d:-: tH. e -,vith legi:·datiYt~ enactn1cmt. th0rcforc the b~·okcr ha~· to f'i!2·n it on behalf o[ the' seller, who pa,1·s the dt;ty. I say it is totally nnf~1ir. and I ask that sorr1c redress hn gi~-en. TlPrc sc-c•n1·. to be son1c ·doubt in the rrl'(ltlSUl'C'l''s 111ind as to whether these C'Ontn:.ct uote-::. arc dutiable. I can assure hilll that tlH•y arc.

Tbr TREA:'i1'RER: TheY ere signed by both pnrti~._·-.; that i an .agi·ePmt:'llt.

:',Jr. H. :'.L RCSSELL: It is different from an agrc-cn1rnt for the sale of an outdoor prE pei_·t:v. und C·ll'l'iCS a YC'l':'\. Sin all profit. r~l_1he man who eif!n> on behalf of the seller is liable to the' Commission<:'r. although he has on!v a small interest in the tranc,action. I ha,:e in my pocket some of these notes, and

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amrndment Bill. 1235

I can show hon. members a case where the profits w re almo't absorbed by the stamp ~dutv. \Ye arc not desirou:: of escaping duty ·;:-dtogeth0r. but we think that all sales under £100 , hould be exempt.

The TRE.\SL"RER: Can vou not L,ake it a (,Ontract note: Is it necf~-;sary for the seller to ~ig11?

1\lr. H. :\I. HUSSELL: The broker ,,-ha :;;ell, sigr~ a~ 1,ycll uE> the buyer. He has authority from hi principal to sell the goods, n;;; i:i l1l'0Yl:d b·. hi" cabkgran1.

The TH 1'\~:l_:-REl-l: "'\Yh"' haYe the bn~cr)s :lHUlF on it .~t a!l: · ·

::'IIr. ll. :u. R US SELL: Hm,· "ouid vou nt-J:ach tf-l: bu\-er unless hi~ lHUllC \Yas on 'it'[ J{ he n1ake~ ~default, you -can sue hin1 ouly if you ha \"e his name on it. If he repudiated dw tran~'ction, hcnv could vou catch hi1n \·;ithout. hi" :-ignaturc ': Busi"ncss ' ~unot b8 carrir·cl en altogether by word of 1nouth. You rnn -t have a dorur.tient cont1ining the 1·ern1 . ., of the (•Jnb·act f:ign~ d by both pcutit:::.. The duty lc,-iccl is out oi all proportion to the pn fit·' realisccl b: a mercJntil-e broker in "Such casl·~. and I ~11 t:~·c..;t thP..t the rrrca~urer make it 6cl. fr,r c\·ery £100, lmt not for <1

fraction thereof. lf thG Treasurer gets 6d. per £100. he will be getting a very big share of the profit> of the broker.

Th• TREASL.:RrR lEan. \Y. :1leCorrnack. flainu.;): The 'Sbolc ~rgunu'nt a fe,,,- dnv~ ngo hinged on the quc···tion raisN1 b,- the hon. HlL'Inb. r for ToornLul that contrar(notes vvc1·e not agreements.

::.\1r. H. :11. HX~SELL: I never said so. You ~·~aiel they \Yerc conveyance:-;. They arc not conveyanct·'l.

The TREAS"CRER: I said the"" were ag-reements. I was advised that they were. I am not an expert on convevances and .agreon1ents, bnt I have ordinary ~intelligence and understand <1 thing when it ic told me. I wa,, told that what you were using. and \Yhot you called a contract note was reallv a.n agreement. ' "

Mr. H. ~1. Rt:SSELL: It is a. contract note. That is the proper term to use.

The THEAS"CRER: That might be the proper terrn to use in your businc~s.

:vrr. H. ::u. RrsSELL: In ev-ery business.

The TREAI"URER: As a matte1· of fact, it is an agreement.

:\Ir. H. :11. R L.s~I ~ : It is vour intention to consider thC'rn as agreerner1tS.

'l'he TRE~\SUREH: They arc agret•ments now.

:\lr. H. :=\I. R l:SSELL: Thev arc all an·rce­nlents. 1-\ sale note or scrip ~s an agrcc~~cnt.

The TH.EAS"CRER: If YOU did not secure the signatnn' of t1-H~ pur~ha.scr, you \Yould be free from duty. ·

Mr. H. :\I. rr rc,SELL : The contract IS a nothcr paint.

The TRE,\SURER: That is ~ehv we ue t?-xil~,- Snre1-;7 y8u can follow that. Ha vmg n yon the protection of the State tve tax :·ou for that protection.

Mr. H. M. Hn'SELL: Protection of the State?

The TREASFRER: Yes the protection of the law courts and everythmg else enablmg

you to impose your agrcem0nt upon t.he pur­chaser.

Mr, H. ),i. U;·,;sEr.r.: Tha.t has nothing to do ith you, anyhow.

TH~ASl_,;HEH: The re;~cnue that \Ye

towards the npke''P of the that vrotocts your property.

~,fr. H. :\T. Tlr.ss Lf.: That 1s " very fllK'C~OUS argUffi( ''1t.

The TH.EASCHER: It is not a s1wcious argLPHPnt. The L ... ilJ. g:.:ntlctnan n1ay use the in::;ulti11 ., t:.:rrn.

:.~1·. I-I. ::\I. l{~ .:.:rLL: It is not insulting.

Tiw THEASCI~ER: It IS not a specious 1na .. k'-, ihcse

atnoHgst to the propert..< that

depends upon the :~tat' protecting it for

i~ no olh('r ~curitv. Rrrnovo alld all iii.lc to land and .-vcry-

al' 3 UlllCHt at ll. c;~targl to n1uintain other rh)ug ·. Tl1~! you haYo

\ ('llt ililll

Yanishl'S. :·· nd auybody n1ay Ltke if the polil'L, or the lavv, or

goYcl·nr ... d .. ~nt, is not there to pre­h·unl t ,k in5: iL

l',lr. ~IoCR!:: That ls Olltsido the question.

T.~1c TRL.\ S CHEH : That m a v be so, but f:lY argarncnt i.s not a tpcciou:;.. argurnent. I · the hon. 1,1cmbcr for 'l'oombul has

Ycr d propeL.}' fron1 that point of ,. in l1itS life. Tasatic-l is in1poscd upon

tlud agrecru~:ni Lccanse it ia a t -txablo docu­ment nndc-r the Act. The hon. gentleman \vishPs to reduce the in1post, and, as he is not able to secure his point, ho is anxious the t a c.,'rtaiu ltmount be taxed at a lower ratr. If hls amcndrncnt v:ere adopteJ, brok. rs could diYide a £1,000 contract into ten £100 contracts.

:\h. H. M. RGSSELL: That cannot be done unckr the Act.

The TREASUHER: That could be done uuder the amendment.

l\Ir. H. J\1. RcsSELL: You Cllnnot do it.

The TREASGRER: What is it that you ask?

Mr. H. M. Ru8SELL: I am asking that con­tracts up to £100 he exempt from duty. They are trtnnpery contract-s.

The TREASURER: The brokers could rc.alc all contnwb trurr1pcr~, contra-cts. They \Yill not do th1'Se thiag•' ! Has the hon. mr·mbcr nut lictc·ncd to the discussion on the m:cthods tl:tt are adopted?

~\].r. I-I. ;,I, Itl:SSELL: \.-on provide against it in the Act to-day.

TGEASL:-HER: Is there anv reason \vil! not clo tlu;~e thingS? If an occurs, all f:ections of the con1-C\-~,de ±txation. l a111 I1rlt.'3ing no

on any section in n1aking that ~t:.ttC'nH_ni. l\Iost of P5 do llOt like to pay direc-t tax:atiou althongh \VC \Yillingl~· pay inclirent taxation, 'wd pay it every day of the ~ .. ,, k in ~no toms dnty a.nd never say a '.-.·m·d about it. V.'e pa:· it through the drapers un;l the gr;,,""'er--. There is eyasion of dircc~ taxation "\Vh(reYer an opportunity pre-eLts itself. I do not propcse to accept the

amendment. I do not propose to allow an opportunity to exist which \\ill enable the 1wople concerned to evade taxation.

Hon. W. lVlcGormack.]

1236 Stamp Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill,

~Ir. H. ::\I. RrSSELL (Toombul): I would point out to the Treasurer that proYision is made in the Bill whereby, if h o or more contracts are rnade in respect of the ::.ame tran:::action, the·:, haYe each to carry separate 8tarnp duty~ or, if hYo or 1nore transactions are induded in tlle one agreetncnt, that agree1ncnt has to carr~.- tl1e 1nax.in1un1 :;-tan1p dury. Tlu-. T rPa~nYcr 1~ quite out of order in bringing fory~-~trd the argun1cnt ht=· did. He that dw temptation would be for the "l>;it E(J. the trausaction into

1ILder £100 each to Pr iYisic•n La•, alrrad·- been

Bill ru lW':YL'lll this. I h~)pe the will at the a1ncndn1cnt,

an iujn -,-~-i1l be done to

to p, y to-dav too 1~1~:>.: r.ho::e

~ er ion of tlw < onur:unitv in baying dutiP:" r:un un=· L<- t bc1ng exacted

\ ~1T· Sta.t('. li'ur in rL.:>pect of

make 10s. £50. and the. stamp duty

on thnt an1cnnt. is 1". Jcl. Other expense'•, suLh a~- cab1 '•, l'L., hasc to he paid fro:m th• t ·J nee. The 1w_pc·t is t·oo heaY_v, and it \':a~ ne\-e!· intd--::.cled to be i1nposed on nlPrcanii1c contract;:. :\"o othPr part of the Briii~h Lon1ininn:5 levir·s :-~ .n1p duties on cont.ract notr,;;. If one such instance exists, I ask the TL_'o ~urer t{) quote it.

Qncs1io:J-T11at thC' words propoeed to be inserted iP claus? 33 (Jlr. H. JI. Russell's arncndmctrt)-l1lJT·; ar.lJ the Comtnittee cliYidecl :-

:llr. Aprel , Barnes, G. P. H Harnes, \V. H. , Bell ., Brand ,. Clayton

Cost"llo Deacon

, Kel'o Kerr

, Ring , Log~tn

A 24 ..

Mr. 1\.faxwC'll , Moore ,. C\ott , Peterson , Hoberts

HHf'-.6 ll. i:f. 1-L hn~:. 1!, W. A. Sizer

.. Swayne , Taylor

Walker ,, 'V:trren

Xor~s. 34.

:Mr. B ,! ,JU' Mr. Laremnbe Bedfor1l , Llrwf'lyn B~"!rtra m , I.loyd Bulcock ·'' :;}lcCormack Carter , Mullan Collius O'r\eefe

,. E~~l~er, w. ,, ~:r~e •. n1m<:tnn H Riordan

Farrell , Ryan, C. J. Ferricks , Ryan, H. J.

, Gledson Rmith Hanson \V. eir

, Hartley , Wellington , Hynes , VVilson

J ones Winstanley Rirwan Wright

Tellers :')Ir. Pease a ne; )1r. II. J. Ryan,

Resolved in the negative.

[2.30 p.m.]

Mr. MOORE (A.ubigny): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On lines 23 to 32, omit the words-

' On each such transfer, for every £50, and also for any fractional part of £50 of the then value of the stock or marketable security transferred -£0 10 0;

[Mr. H. M. Russell.

'(bl \Yhere any conve ... ~auce or trans~ fer i8 execuh~d pursuant to a con­tract comvrising stock or marketable .<::t'C"Hl'ity, and al:3o property other i han stock or marketable security-

' On each such tran~..:fcr. for every £~0 and aLo for any fra~~tional part of £50 of the then ya:i.w of lho stof~{ o1· !: r rkr·table ::,'rnrity transferred -J:O 10 0';

un(~ 11F<'rt the words-

' On each such transfer, for every £10. and also for any fractional part o! £10 of the then value of the stock or n!·n r;.;:f't.~ble security transferred -£0 2 0; '

' 1 7;) \Yhc-re anY conYe!'ancc or trans~ f:e:!.· is ext'cnt£'d 1;ursuan1· to a contract c ,,mpri_;;ing stork Dr n1arketablc

curity. and also rn·opcrty other than · oel;:: or Inarket,tblc security-

. On each such tramfer, for 2vcry £10. a"cl rrleo for any frtcctional part of £10 nf tlw then valne of t.hc ~tock DT rn~t rkr•ta blo sc~cnri ty transferred --£0 2 0.'"

Thl' aLJonm of tnx per £100 will be just the s?.nH', but. instead of jun1ping in amounts of 10:-:,~ ;.he basis of the increase 'vill be in arnount~ (•f 2s. The increase of 400 per C(•nt. will :-till f.~xi~t on the- preYious figures 1cs the ratE' of tax is not altr·red by the· amPndmc·nt. but merely the basis. Fractions nf £50 :Ec fairly big fraction'3. In t.he old Ad it nsed to be fractions of £10. and 1nv an;.cnchnent seeks to retain that basis~ It. sc~ms to me rather rough that a man should pav 1<'s. on £50 and £1 on £51. He .,hould P'lV a<'cording to t.he amount of value involved, and I conslde1· the sugges­tion 1 am making for the reduction of thC' ba:;:j~ ls a soEnd. one and will in1po~e no harcl>hin on tlw Government. as the

. n nue ccllected will be the same.

~h. KELSO (Xunrlah): Under this provi­sion the dutv is raised fron1 6d. on everv £10 to 10s. on eYcry £50 or fractional pm;t t.hereof. end I do not think it would do the T1 ra"Urt'r vc•r7 n.1uch hann if he \YE> re to split. it into srnaller deno0!1inations. It does ~H·m rather hard that on an,- fraction below £50 a man has to y.ay the full stamp dut.v on £50. , nd. if it is for an amount over £50. he will hnvf' to ray st.amp duty on £100. I tru;t the Treasurer will see his way tu meet the Oppo .. iiion in this matter.

:VIr. KERR (Enoggera): At the prcs"nt time the mon whc' buys a small allotment of land at ,, very low value pay, 6d. stamp duty, but under this provision he will havr' to 10av 10s. The amendment will us£~st th,_; ~1~n on the basic wage who bu~vs ,, scnell pic{'e of land on which to erect u worker's home for himsdf. If he pays £2G 'or that piece of !and, under the amend­tTi.ent he \Vould on1y havo to pay 4s. stan1p duty ir>.tead of lOc., as providccl by the cL, U'<'. That savinrr of 6s. will assist him very materially in ~connection with paying his monthlv instalments. The extraction of lCs. for st~mp duty from a man buying ,., small blork of land valued at £20 is too groat. I hope the Treasurer will look upon the amendment in that light and ag-ree to this ,mall concession to the man who is going hie, hardest to get a small home for him­self.

Stamp Ac:s £~0 0CJ'OBER.)

Hox. VI. H. DAR~ES (ll"ynnum): It rleenled to 1ne that the amenchnent is a ycr.v reasonable one. ::\'ot YC'ry n1uch rp\ entw will hP lo~t unc!c•r it but it is going to :'<lYC' a good deal oi t:::·oublc, and \Yill rPJrlOYc ~ou1c of the pin-prick from this lPgislntion. One wi~·ht a,~' 1.'-:jthr- Jt hein; disrf''llh'ctful that ti1e Trc'1surej_· tok! us that, -.,dlPn \VC got into Connnittce, cvcrythin~ in the garden w·ulcl be lo•. eh·. Ir hn~ not bc0n Y• rv ]oyelY. ~""fb(~ Treasur,'J: has sat do\vn and D~:arti 'aliv r0fuscd to Lc1p u:-; at all in conneCtion "·ith an~ amcnc1nlt>lJh 1.YC hayr• sugg;csted. This i~ r~nt a -;-u·y Li,~ nt:._ttL'r. and Dc'rbaD- ' tc·:· ia the day t.hc rrrc:-- ·urcr lna'. - l""'pCl~t- s.orne­wl.at ancl mcc·t ~he Lcndl'r of the Op;10sition.

T!~1c TP~ASFnER: I ha Ye a Yi,~id recollec­tion of your rd. Htjng nature "·hen you were here.

fiox. \Y. IT. BA\U::::--JES: I r •uh1 write quit·- an ~"'~' :-ty to sho\Y hovv Y<..>rv l(•nicnt I vv?c. ' hen I wa·. nlhnini~b?r.i.Jl~ · t-hr- affairs of the Go' crmneut If I had a bad \VaY. the Treasurer )s follovling n1e, b:1t he ·i~ \•,-Ol'SP.

The TRE.\.···T'RFR: To tPll the trEth. I r.1thcr admired you. (Laughter.)

IIox. W. II. TL\R?\E8: I \l"nnt to .streso; the point thut I a:I). dealing whh stock ;:";.nd ~aarketablc · ~·rnritiC"-;, It is a question o£ ,,-hat we can do to make th0 load a little lightrl~ for the individual \vho is dcalino· \\ ith thi.' tinrl of otock. "

An10Ju.in10nt (Jfr. JI oorc) ncg·at.ived.

:\Ir. ROBERTS (East ToowonmiJ,,): I beg to rrwve the following anu'ndtnent : ~

" Aftrr li:1c 3, on page 13. in:-::ert the following new paragraph:-

.' The f~lllnwing additional cx:Pn1p­hons a. re l1t~ertod : ~

. 'A tran:;fer of a property (cotnpris­rng land and a dwc,!ling tlwrcon) \vhore the C'onsidcration does not exceed ::-even hundrr-d pou.nds, antl satii'faetorv eYidcnc.:; is produced io th0 ConlmiS­Bioner that the property is or is to be used s~lely as a home for the purchaser thereor.

' \ transfer of land wlwre the con­sideration. does not exceed nvo hnndrcd pounds, and sat.isfactorv evidence is producecl to the Corrnninioner that such land i' to be used for the erec­tion of a chcclling thercon for the· solo use and oc.'upation of the nurchaser of snch laud.' " ·

At 2.45 p.m ..

}Jr. WEIR (Jiaryborough) rclic,-ccl }lr. F. c\. Cooper in the chair.

:>Ir. ROBERTS: In my pnblic , neer. I have alway'~ had one clcf'iro in par1icnlar­thClt j'", t.o help the n1an vvho i~ Ollt to get a.. home. aucl I kno\~ t}Jat the difii, ultv is usu lllv­at the C0llllllPJ1CCI1:l'Dt in getting 'tc)g>ther a fe\Y pounrls to p,Ly tile dcpo~-3it. ..:.\ftPr paYin~·· the ·dcpo:"it the-re ;~; tht~ sta1np duty to pa'y.

0

J\.lr. PETERSOX: \/pry often -aftf:r a Inan has oon.')·ht a propl1.'l y Le },., astcuaded to fin et there if' a heavy ~tan1p duty to pay.

\h. ROBEHT;:;: There may be .;omcrhing in the st.a t.• . .dl0nt of the ho11. n1en1bel' for J\~nrn1.:1t1b\·. ~~-~ tru teo of one of ou1 largo friendly · ()Clcti~ ·, I con1c into contact with these men two or three times a month, and

one always nsks w'nat depo~lt thuy ar8 abh~ to find and trirs to help thcrn ,:~s 1nuch a::: pos iblc. Th::-re i· a diHi ··ulty in finding fro1n £8 to £12 fc,·· otamp dut.v on the tmnsfcr. thp n1o1·t:.:.a ':1:'e. and so L_,nh. On a propE:rty n-orth £700 the Goycr!lnlcnt take tl"lnder fee of £1 a!l.J .si-arnn dtt.\ £7 ~that i~. £J ahog·t?ther. · I know ~hat that .i:-:; a diHicult:v, and nH~n in Inaki-.rr thc•il' <ll1plication;;:.. ti!1les they ]of'P their 0]1J>Ortunit:,.

Sorne­think

~\ye onght ha Ye

llll~ndJ( .t~ :(··c'l\";. ~ a·chnit that l1ten t,..)

nlJ SCH'h

p ,;ble. to be ~· C'i('ti'c:-:; to the111. "tJl(_lthcT nh.'thcd h:-wc c l.n do ..... o. d0 JIOt kno1Y :Jnythinrr \vhich - iil b_thl' a .i .. t the- \a? ·Pal'Et~l' nnr1 bi falnil.',~.

..:-\1r_~r:Jn1C.'i!t (}fr. 1/r~!Ji ·t,.:) negati\-"d.

:,Ir. J(ELSO 1 ,- 1t:.'rluh1: I beg to n1ove the foHcndr_g- nrnench~A,·nt :-

" AftPr 13, ornir p~t!·ag:rarlh (7),

' Duvlicate: or inst.rnt11ent duty-

headin:r ''D ·posit foilO\Ying pro·

coUlltcrpart~ of nnv chargoaiJ!c \Yith

\Yhcrr~ ~acb lhd:~: doe> not an1ount t·o tv:o. shillings and :-.ixpencc-

'Thf' ~~an;c dnt.y a:; the originc:tl

In an:· other c:--.:-r-£,J 2 6.' ''

The Treat:.urer kno1ys that 1Pgal docun1cnt::; haYe to be in duplicate. ,~.nd in sorne cas:s in triplicate~ and the GoYernn1ent office In

which thcv are l'f'!risterecl keeps a copy, another cOpy being -handed ovcF _to ·one of the parties concerned. The ongrnal docu­n1ent has to be stdnped \Yith an nnpresae_d stamp. and the duplicate has placed upon 1t a notification th,'.t the ongmal has been st'tmpcd. This is a r~1att01' about. hich ehould be a llttl0 lcment. It lS "mpl;o one of a ntnnber of ca:"c~ of getting anoth~r 2:;. 6d. The part ics cannot get out of thrs procedure, as it is necessary to con:!.plt,te th~ document. In mder to takE' ach·antag-f' of the people who must ha Ye dupli< 'He. and. in the case of lEa~t ~ tnphcate 1nstrnn1cnts, the Trea~urcr \Yarns t.o put an impo-::rt. on those rlocurncnts_, if the dut~ is in excp~s of 2s. 6cl. Let me take the c \,unple of a rnortc."rt!J'C. ::\eccs~arih· that n1ud be in dupli­cate.~ i~he Real Property Office insists under thP Heal Propcrtc· Act that t.bat docnn;'nt :;hall be in dnplic,cte and that the' or;a·)nal ~h&ll be held b:c· the Rc .,l Prop"rt:·; Office.

The TRE.I""P ·n: All th· _',mtrali''" Stat<o h::t\ c this.

rnar: ..

a;:u uot roJH'l'l'r:c~l as to it or not. I arn .tppeal­

of tht' hon. ~·cn;..:c n of \Yhat the:v a~e

\YC arc fiOiDg lS

n i. ab-:olutel:: hope for l·3ions he

li c ('fC'' tc-, his c:x.t~:n .... ~·::·dinary

1238 Stamp Acts [ASSKHBLY.] Amemlment Bill.

The TREA~t:RER: I do not follow precedent unle~:-:.; it is a goorl one.

:VIr. KELSO: I ctppcal to the initiative and inckpcndcnc''' of the hon. g-entleman to cre::Jte a prceedent in this case. I ask him· to he independent <1nd cx0rci e his judg­rncnt and sense of fainlCf". This is only the b0g:inni:ng of a trcrncndous t·t·\.. I ask hon. mernbf·rs to cont0rr1pla to the enorn1ous nl.unbC'r of tra n;;;;actlonf! 1 hn t will takP place, a.nd thr thon~and~ 1-1nd thousands of doru­mcnb that will be u· tbis in1110st of 2~. 6d. Thl~ Drovi~ioD bctJr~ out to th··~ fullch.t the statc•nlc)Pt the T:re:lf'UJ'"·r hcu inti·oduciiP; tht B1l\. o:_tt of :-:ht>e1· dc~pcra+iun Ln l11ll~1 obt~~;n r·•n;llUl' an~ \dlCl't' a1H~ an\~ ho 'T· This \Yi1l incrc'a \E' ypar bv vea·r. It 1~ c ..:~pntial 1 the ,, (1ucun1e-tts h;, ~~ .. gi, terPCL a.nd it ;, unfoir to ask that a duplicate or triplic~1te ;.;}nll ('aJT.'- t 11is extra in1po.::.t of 2s. 6d. There 1nust be an imprc~sed stamp, and thP hoD. g;clltl<'nwn, roalising that. intencls to sqnee ·c another 2s. 6d, out of thP,e unfortunate people. Tn n1any cases they are unfortunate. I horw t}p• Trct~urcr 'vi1l see his wa, · clear to accept the amendment.

:,Ir. I\TXG (J;ouun): I hope the Trea.surer \Yill <:>()P his \Yay clear to aceept the amC'nd­lneut. The more I look into this Bill tho n1orc' conYinccd I mu lhrrt t.he Government will scrv.r(• ten tin1es the revenue that ihev expect. and, instc trl of obtaining £50,000, they will obtain £500,000.

The TRE .• Sl:RCR: After listening to tho argnn1cnt thi?. rnornin,--:. I a1n convinced that \V(' arP going to obta.ln n1ore revenue than WP did in tlw past. vY e ha YC made a note of "11 the disclosnros.

.1\Ir. I-(1\.TG: Tho hon. crpntlenlan i~ onlY following; the attitude hen took ll]J when a deputation clesirPd to dis<:ms these matters with him. He took the ,,fancl that no argu­ment would be of <lilY uBc. and we know that any <1 rgnrn0nt no1v is absolutely u5leless; but we desire. for the benefit of the electors. to _point ont what we eon~idcr i-he dan1age is gOing to be. \Y c hnT(' Cl)rt tin docun1cnts. Ray, at the Real Propcrt j' Offict\ which ha\ f~ to be pr0parC'd in dnpiiCctb--, _-\.ll n1ortgag-es hnYt' to be made out in duplicate. \Vh~ should not th0 dutv on the orio·i11al d{)('nment cm·cr alt the stamp dnty thatis required of them? flw law ea vs that a lease haB to be pn'pa,rcd in Liplicaic, vet uncle,· this Bill the noy( r:tln:enl· propos(~ t~o charg0 a duty on the dnphcatcs and triplicate c. in addition to the dm,- imposed on the origin;!. A dupli­('a~e. tnortgagP is no good without th0 on '·1naJ. 'rh0 law says that thl~::;C< dornmPnts must be prepared in dupli: ate antl tri11ljcate, bu! the GoYC'rn:n~·nt should not charge. stamp dut~,- on the ongn1al and abo on COPlCS. It :is a. wonder to n1c t.hnt tllC: do nol~. charge 2s. 6d. on E'Yf'r;v p 1 ge of a lease or rnortgage.

~Ill', PEASE: That is R ycry good mggc'­tion.

:\Jr. KI:'\G: The Go\·ernnwnt arc quite ca.1;mblc of ncc('pting that -;ng~r--tion. Thr:v \nd ~oon chargP for the right to br,('athe nir. Tho only thing they hayc 11ot done :is to cl1n rp:P for the right to die. l\ly a rgtuncnt is that this is :.t duty \Yhich will be imposed on parh of a cloctuncnt or parts of a transac­li,;n as a \Thole. and it is not a fair charge. It I" not jn~tifiablc, equitable, or oven f·o-Ilnlon sense.

Ph. Eelso.

:\Ir. R013ERTS (East 1'oou·oornba): The Trcasnrer and hon. members sitting behind: hitn n1a~ vic\Y this as being a Yery srnall nwtter. but thev;- have to recognis·e that ques­tions ,n·c contrnuallv arising in connection '"ith thc,,c matters \d1ich bl'ing the people coHccnwd to the Stamp Oflicc. Stamp duty :i;:;; bccJnling 8 Yery hPav:v penalty. Tht rrrca­mrcr c,tid. \Yhen introducing the Bill. th<1t it -as for 1-h(' l)Luposc of obtaining additional l'P\'Cnnc. Till::-~ CPrtainlv is one of the Jnethocb, ond I YC'1'' nn1ch rcg1~C't that it 1.--; ill fall on tl1e l"'opl;· '' ho ar0 lt'l"t able to p_ay these '· arious d,ltiP~. Generally spcalnng, the pl'oplc p.1ving thc~-<e dutie~ ar{~ pl'Oplc wto are jr~- [i nancial diffieultiocf'. and on every cc\'a~i,,n v.-hen thcv arc called upon to rcne\V a n10l'l!.!'agf ~tan1P duLics on the ·duplicates ha \'t' to. bo paid in addition to the duties on tlH• orig·ina!. Thc~P docun1ents have to bG put thr;mih the Stamp Office and the _Real Propertv OffiC'e for the purpos: of regJstra­tiof!. ("'1on:'t rlul'ntly, tht-=>~·e dut1es ~ecome _a ycr.v hPaYy dragJ and I prote:~t ~ga)nst the1r in1position.

Hox, \Y. H. B \H?\ES (Wynnum): The amc·ndn1cnt j~ certainly a reasonable one. I \1 ~~ •. -fTV sorrY to hear the ho11. member for Herbert' appi,o.-e hy interjection of the remark maJe ln- the hon. member for Logan that the Gon'rluneiJt would next tax ·every p,'l ge of the:-•: docun1ents.

:\h. FERRJCKS: \Ve ha Ye just as much right to do that a_, you ha-re to suggest It.

Hox. \Y. lL BAR]\;'ES: The hon;, m~mbe,~ fur South Bri~ban0 need not get shuty oYPr the u~atter.

=~rr. FERRICKS: I was pointing out your irlcon,,i:-tPnCY in complajning of our approv­ing of a ~uggc:')tion '"hirh came fron1 one of : nu· own 1nen1bers.

The TRF.ASURER: Only one n1an got "shirty'' in this Committee to-day, and he g;ot into trouble. (Laughter,)

Ho;>;. W. H. 13AH]\;'ES: The Government art' ont to extract every farthmg; they pos­,iblv can out of the individual. The Govern· nlPl;t arc ;;:.trainin~ and straining and seeking to find all a\'Cnues by \vhich they can tax the people. Though they are supposed to be dernorratic. it seems to me t_hcy are

d.P1flocratic only in sce111~ how:. f3 p.m.J much they can S(llle':'"' out of

the other fellm\. Then supposed sn, pathy for thC' small, man is not worth. a map of t.hc fingers, \v hen reasonable pro­posals are put before the , CO"nnuttee the Tr._a:::un'r i~ "o busy confl'rnng that he has not t i1ne to listen to thcn1--

Thc TRE.\St'llER: I listencd to the hon. nlt'mb<'r foe- ::'\nnclah whon he expounded h1s amendment. I am not going to lr>ten to every, hon. Il!C'tnber repeating the same sort of thing.

Ho·-; W. H. BAR:'\ES: It mav be con­dP~Cf';J;:ion on the part of the Treasurer, lml. ilfH'r n ll. great men condescend, It

that the hon. gc>Htlcman has been b~, :'omc outside jnfltWTICl'. and does

not ea re' a ~tra\V' fur an,v reasonable J.nd lwlpfnl amendments that mav be put for­', rcl. I do hope that the h_on. gentleman \Ylll r0gard the value of th1s a.m.endn1ent, and accept it.

c)uE, tion-That the words proposed io be omitted in subclause (7) of clause 33 (Jir.

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1239>

Kclw's am, nrlmcnt) stand part of the clause -put; and the Committee di,idcd :-

.:\ir Barber j' Hedfo d , Bertram

Bulcock Carter Col! ins

, Cooper, F. A. , Cooper, \V. , Dash

Dnnstan .. Farrell

Ferricks , Gledson

Hanson ., Hartley

Ryllt.'S ,, Kirvtan

Ans, :u. Mr. I~arcomtJe

•. Llewelyn I . .lovd }lcCcrmack ~_<;_ullan O'Ke, fe PP~yne Penst' Rior'lrm Hyan, C. J. lt\ :tll, 11. J. Smith Stopford \\~ellington

\rilson \Vinstanlev \\t~right ·

Tei· 1 Jlr. Bu:c. ck and 3Ir Hyn~ "'·

lllr. ,\ppel , I-:htrnPs, G. P. , Barnes, \V. H.

Bell , Brand

ClaYton , Cosi:rllo , Deacon , Kelso

Kerr , King , Logan

:\"or~, _1,

l\ir. ::\faxwell Moo re

, :Morgan );ott Pdc·rson

, Hoberts ., }{.u~~ell, H. JI.

]-.' HS .. Pll, "". ~\. Sizer Ta.ylor Walker \Varren

Hc.,o!Yed in the affirmrtliYe.

:\Ir. KELSO (Tuncla/;): Snbdansc (3) on pag:e 13 looks Yery innocL'ni". but I trust the Treasurer realises its full diL'Ct. It roads-

" The ' exen1ption ' under the heading ' Lea:'e or ..._-\gre"lTICllt fc_,_· a Lease ' is repealed."

take it that in future all leases \vill bo snbj rct to ::-tanlp dnty-CroY n lea;:,: s and all. Dnrin-r tht ~econd reading debate. bY ''a\' of interjection, the Premier admitted to me that it incluclccl Crmn1 leases.

The TRL"rREH: Of course it does. \Vhy should it not?

:\Ir. KELSO: I want the achnission of the Tn'asurr·r that that is ~o. Doe~ the hon. !!'Cntlcnutn n~cogni~c that hr i:-; hitting a very largl'.~ nun1bl1 l' of the poorc'r class in the community who are Lking adYantago of the \Y orkcrs' Homes Act? Does the hon. p;entlo­man rcalis,_, that it is the policy of tlw Government. to boost the \V orkc"' Homes Act in preference to the \Y m·kers' Dwellings Act. b.ccause the \Vorkers' Dwelling-s Act deals \\-ith freehold and tho \Yorkl'rs' 'Homes Act \vith lraschold? ·while theY are adver­tising this all oYer Queensla-nd imd pointing ont in their report how the applications for \Yorker~) hon1c,, art-' incrr3,;;;inQ· thcv arc here hitting under the belt the'' very class of )Woplc whom th0v allege the,- a'ro anxious to bf'lp. h:. putting a :-.tarnp <hrty t~) the~l' lease~. I < Hl onl:,~ :::ccond the rCrn.::trks of the hon. member for '\Yynnnm, to the effect J-hat it i~ the opinion of :1on. n1crnbers on this . .;idP t hn t the Trca::;;nror. during the ·whole of this ddJ.•t0, h~~ takc:n ~t .ts a huge joke. He <c'cms to thmk. this Is an opportunit} to ~qut)~ 501nctl11ng: out of '>3-0nlebodv, and: bt ca~.1sc the Oppo5itinn are pr~}­tr>~tJn§ . .!' agaHJ.5t t.he~~e nnjnst inly)Q:-itions. t.he hen. gentlen1an is h1.king ir as a. huge joke. He Ins been lauglung nearly all the day

and displaying hilarity. Is the hon. gcntle­nut.Il sincf'rc when he brings in a mca"urc which will ha\ e the effect of taxing <'very n1an -w1th a property ;vhich (·0n1cs under the \Yorkers' Homes Act? I hope that this mattu· will be broaclcast-!1ot through the \Yirckss. but through the press.

The Tm:.·l"·l-RER: I hope you are not going to imerferf' with the miuophone. (Laughter.)

~.Ir. KELSO: \Y<' ~an get it broadcast t.hrough tlw prcs:". The hon. geutlcnwn and hi::; J·'trty ad\'(,.lte th.1t t11c worker::' shall ,;et take fr<'ehold but lea,chul,~, and hero thl'Y arc ta'obiue: them iu the bo..ek at tl1e. Ycry ~tart b~; .... t.axing th(•1n on the least.. of the land ou whieh thcv build thc·ir houses . It i:;:. 111) to the> Trca~~trer to d('fcnd the policy of thC' Gon'rtllnPnt and justify his action~. So far as I kno\Y. h~ doe~ not propo.~c t·.l lllOYe an atnt~ucl·rtcnt proYiding an cxe1nptlon jn this cas<'. I-1uv~· then is ho ~wing 1 -, ju.-t if.. hitw ,!f \Yitll tho people whom lw has been trving- to pc•rsuade that the GoYPrnntcnt arC' their friPnd · and sa:v·­ii,~· "If von 1vill onlv YOtL' for us. -,·e "-·ill g·i~-~ ~-on 0\·f•ry faci1itv to acquire a honL' "·: The YC'JT lir t thing that hanpcns when thes• mcll gP1 a lPa~e 1111d build a hmne is that the GoYPI'nmPEt ~~ut a tax on thcn1.

IIox. \Y. H. BAR1\ES (Jr_,;nnu ·n): I am >orP the Treacurcr has not followed thc­nrrrt!ment of the hon. lllemhn fo1· ::"undah. TJ{-;, SPcrctan- for Pnhlic \Yorb a'kecl by intorjcC'tion if \\"C' could connect up in some 'YaY · th0 a:"~ociation bf'h\'een thP workers' hcn.tlC'"' a.1d the \Yorkcrs' rhn,lling~. I \\'ant t~ connC'ct t·ht:n1 up. and to sho'v that under the \Yorkcrc;' Dwcllinrs Act rertain fees are in1poocd. and c;·id, ntl~· tb(· TrPJ~nrcl" is no'r ?Clvlng. '"\Ye ha Ye tried tD trc~tt th0sc rr1en ·with wnl'1;;:0rs' ho"!l.JC':; too li_brrn.ll:'\·, and we will now bring them into Jii,e wit-h the ]wople with ,.:orkcrs' dwPlling~." The two lhi1lf("' are being hrought together '0 that 1hP '"~qllC'C'Zf' n policy ll1rl! still be pursued. A11t)a.rr~1tl~v the Trea:::cn·cr doc!3 not care su long as h(' ~cr . ..; tlH~ ba\YL-ue;;;. The Tr0asurer i~ ·o anxions to g · t e\·ory 11cnny that one mw't concluck that he is Scotc-h. Apparently hi~ nn-....:ict\ i~ th0 nn1-romc of tho-.;c days in ,Y1Jlch ~·. c ,ycnt thP pnt c. and h8 is no\V t-;·ying to m a kc the )10nr indiv-iclu· 1 pay. for it. StEC'lv the Trrr1snrf'r ht~' s:m:lC' fPchngs >~f comna~si0n to,Yard:.; the sn1all man ''"ho hat: a h~me ~

;\Ir. DK\C'O-:\ (Cunn:.'l(lh~m): 1 do not 1\_r.ow how lar thi<:: clan~~ will go. Of eonrse, \YC' a1J nndf•r:::.land wb")t the Tn·'t~nrer is after-he tells ns him.·01f that hP is after molH'Y. 1Tnd(•r this part.icular subclause be i~ f.-.:oin?: to chnrgf' duty on th,, cancellation of aw- and lw hns alrcadv told us th ,+ Crn\Yn .~s arc includ<)d. \pparcntly he is goi11 g- tn irrtpo -e a stan-:·1- duh' on the < Hncellation of a lcasP of Crown land. Is hc actnall:;· going t.o in1no:-:c' darnp duty on the forfcitnre of a selection?

An (lpposrnox ::VIE:\IBER : \Yho ,,-ould pay it'

:\Ir. DK\COX: I clo Lot knmv-. I just 1;;a11t to kno"\\' "'. h0ther he proposcc; to do so. The Rill certa-inly r n . that duh shall br' ch .. rgt'ct ·• on t.h, consic]: ration paid for or Yalne of the mo,·able chattch included in the tr.'-nsaction." Th0 Tr0a~nrer n1ight Jet· !lS knn\Y what t1H~ position is !"O far aE:, r;c•leetions arc concerned.

1J.Ir. Dcacon.l

1240 Siamp Acts [ASSE:\lBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Tile TREASrRER (lion. IY. ~1cCormack, ('uinL•): Hon. member, opposite have been

:.n.,ing nH~ of Je,·ity a.1d of having a sense hu1nour. Ouc hon. nlcrnbcr acr:uscd rne of

~tubbiug sm.ncbcd~.7 in the back with a stan1p, ~nothc•f of "pntti:ag the boot in," and another ot IUL'z·zing sonu~ llCr.-,on. Is it a wonder th<H i sn1ile ·: Tbc fact ls that tho O\Yner 0f ttli \Yorkcr':; hon1e ahout '';hich t-he hon. Ltcmbc•r for \Y~ HlJUin has been talking is rir::!i~~it~'1v c'xcrnptrd f:i·mn this taxation under t.lw r\ct~ I thought I might just as well let lH·lJ. rnPlnht'r.::: go on for a. while and see hJ\Y ~l1<lllY of i·h:..ul \Yon!d get up and follow i~L! ho11. rnr·rnlv" in rnaking the assertion. Tht· \Ynrkl~r .. .,' IIoLlCs Act ploYid£>s-

:..;o docurnent or instrun1e::nt executed fnr the pm·po.,e of thio Act shall be liable to :;tainp duty, auy enactrncnt. to the cor:ltrary notwithstandin{,."

Illr. KELSO (Tundah) : Th0 Treasnr0r is entitlc·d to indulg-e in a litHe lcYity because• he has scored.

The 'TREASrRER: I am not going to laugh ~t that.

1\lr. KELSO: I asked him, not only to-day_ but at an eDrl1er ·.tage, if this provi8ion included all Crown leases, and he answered

in the affirmative. I -do not think the gcntlenutn knows his brief too w0ll.

The 'l'REAScRER: The Stamp Acts include those leases, but another ... \et of Parliam0nt .exem]Jts them.

~Ir. E.EL~O: The Tu:msurcr Yla3 trying to ·· lluow oft'' at rnc.

The Tm:.\sl-REH: Xot at "OU. I did not n1u1tion you.

1Ir. KELf-!.0: ThP hon. rrcntlcn1an \Vas trying to .. rhrow oif ·' bcca'-~se I did not know the ~\cr. Th0 hon. t-;n1tlcn1an did not kn<>w the Act.

The TR;·:.\SURER: I did.

~Ir. l{ELf;O: I . .hke-d thP hon. u0ntlen1an if thi.-; p1·ovi~jon n~ferr0d to a 11 Cro':\vn leases aH! ho told me that it rlid. '

The TnE.\SFRER: I will take \vu into mv confidC'ncc, and inform :von that h '""' in the •JrigiDal Bill, a;1d I struck it out.

:\Ir. KELSO: All I know is that I asked the hon. g-Pntle1nan a quc·Jtion~ and his a lb\\-('f indi~atcd that all lcasC's would be nbject to this proyision. Ty;ice he said th: t. ::ioly argument is that the Treasurer is l ·tting- down the vcr,:.' v·oplP for YYhom he professes to cater.

The TRE.\SrRER: It \\'as the hon. member fn \"\'"ynnUill \YhO 8 'ked me the question.

-:\h·. l(ELSO: I ,do not know whether any othPl' hon. n1crnbcr asked l1in1, bnt I ('Crtajnl~· knm that I asked him. I do not idcnd t(, rwnnit the Trcasur<•r to sav that l did 11ot lmm. the Act whr.n he di~l not know that purticnlar t_;cf't.lon, or cbe he would have gi n:n n1e a dlff( rent an;. wcr.

.\I". KL\G (T:0~V'n): I YYoukl like the to gi YO llll son10 infonna tlon jn

ith th~s proyision~ ';For ::un- transfer or cancPllation c,f

IN>><c, 'one-half the amount of leai'e originally paid, and conveyance on

sale duty on any prer11iun1, fine. or other ,_cmsidcration whatsoever paid. other than r<'Et, and also on the consideration paid for or value of the movable chattels inc!u:lPd in the transaction."

Jllrn. IF. JicCormack,

I ask the Trc a••urcr if the Stamp Commi>­FicnPr has nut al~~eadv hf)cn collecting the'ie clutif~s. I sa:,- hP has,· and I say that, in 1ny opinion, he ha~ been i1lcgally collecting then1. If ]I<' has bP en collcet in~- those dutic , and require'' le''"l authoritY, then I can undcr­::-;tand the I~CC'f ",Sit\' for 'this rH'oyi::;ion. ~.,ake ~be- sale of a gro'ccr.v Lusinec,s co1nprising a trvn,fer of a lease a11d stock i11 trade. That tram fer of lease is stamped. The stock in 11:ade i~ Yalued at. say, £500, and it

bv clr•1iYei·v. Tht·l'e i~ no doculn£>nt · dnt v. ~-et the Con1missioner ha8

· U'a.mfcr dutv on the transfer of the lea,-;(', and he h::u; been charging ad ""lorem dm,- on the ya]ne of the stock that pac:;;;c_•s b)r d~~liYer·-. I a~k th9 Treas~ror if that l>) EOL ~o, aud 1f the object of th1s pro~ \·ision ] ... not to rnake the position of the Cornmi~-,,1oncr cc~rtaill.

The TREASUPEic: He ;, entitled to do so.

J\Ir. DEACO::\' (Cunninr1ham): I beg to n1oYo the follo.,ving an1en,dment :~

"' On Ji,es 30 to 32, page 13. omit sub­clause (91 rcadm"--

·(9) 'All the "prO\·isiom contained in paragraph two, under the hcachng '~Iortg·ac-c, Bank, DcbcnturC', and C'nYcn;u~t-' are repealed."

The principal .\et sets out that the dnt0 on the trnnsfer of a mortgage is ls. 3d. for ever, £100 or p~ut thereof. Thi" Bill im­po~cs a dntv of 10s. in rPlation to any tra 11:-'fPr or · of a n1ortg-a6·e. ThP anH'ndment allow the dutieS under the p1 wc1pal ~\< t to stand. There arc many rpa~:;:ons \Yhv a n1an is at tirnes compelled to seck 1 o transfer his mortgage from onE' bank to another. He hao a]n,ady paid stamp du~y on that mortgage, and lw should not agam luwe to pa;. a clnty of 10s. for every, £100 or part rlwn~of v:l-wn he transfers h1~ mort­ga(J'f'. Tho:..:P uuforinnato persons ~ha are cornpcllr·d to borrow mm;e:' arc ('ntitled to ' ~onw considel'ntion, anr1, if the Government ".vill a·rct:pt thP arnendrncnt, the Trcasur?r will .discoYcr in the long- run thn.t he w1ll lo' ~~ no rnonf'v t.hPrcbv. -On manv occasions n10~1PY is bon:owcd 011~ ruortgage fOr the pur­pme 'of developnwnt. and such development rnca.ns dt)veloping the State and prov1d1ng additional "\York.

:!\fr. J\IOORE (A uhigny): By his readiness in sa vinO' " A vc ., to these questions the TreaBure; apparently doos not realise the difficulties that people who are compelled tD l!onow monov have to contend with. I have hacl a good cical of experience in such cases. rrhc bnn. ["C'Jlt]ornan is ·labouring under the impression that a.ll lht'·<e people have a1:y amount of ntOHP:V, for 1~ndcr this clause he 'eckc to rhaccc• thr'm double. I do not under­~tand \rh·,· ;--110 Trcasnrcr should desire to gl't ar ]WO}llP ~,,·ho are in diffi~ultit:s. I qui~e n'ali''' that :~me of i.he bnBmo,s people m tht' rjtic;.; :n·o LOt in diffirnlti·~s "\YhPn they obtain arc·on11noclaiiou from a bank, but hrge nnmlJ .. r.' of JWOplc who al·c com,p<;lled to obtain U-('C'Oll1nlodation arc in d:::fficu bf'~ when the: cb so.

The Tm:.\;o<l'H~R: The mortgagee pa:;·s the t1tlty jn 1hrd CFLS('.

.,Ir. :\100HE · It is u ually charged tn the n1ortgag-or.

Tll0· Tllr.\SlCRER: He cannot charge the mortgagor ''· ilh the duty if the Act says he has to pay it. In many cases it is merely the transfer of an instrument.

Stamp Ac/9 [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1241

l\Ir. 3/100RE : It very often happenB that ;; he individual ha' considerable diffieultv in ilwJing fl0nwonc Vilho \vill take over the nlort­gagc .. and. on tinding such a person, he has to submit to his tel'rns. He consequently charg-es lhe mortgag-or all the exppnses in connPction vvith the tran8fcr. The theory nw.y be that it i~ ju:-;t a bu~jness traneactiul~, that the rna.n \vho borrow::-~ the moncv doe~ not pay, and thrtt it is. the it:ve3tor ,;,ho in artnaJ practice find~ tho charges: but it invariabl,v hnppc·ns that d1c rnortgagor luts to pay nll chargL'S for adyances obta.illc·J. The: GovcrnHH nr an~ get.tiug a pretty L1ir ''·whack" cut o£ iho individual nO\\T lx· obtaining half of tho orig·inal duties. PeoplP du 11ot iran~~fer 1n-urtgag(~S for fun, but from dire 11c-:-~c:--.sitv ~ and it i.s oft'!n a condition of th< ag]'(:-en1cnt to nc'c-o2nrnoda-to that all .dH11·gc. shall be ]laid b>· t,ho mortgagor.

fierc Y'OU are :making hin1 lJ<ty on [3.30 p.rn.] tlw :'ame amount h ice. TlH'

per.~on a(lvnncjng the rrwnc,~ puts all the rharge~ on tlk indiYidutAl borrowing. A rrtan does not h·ansfcr hi.·: rnol·tgage unle~s he is conlpPllecl to do so or i,·) a.ble t-o ;;:0cure ' lovi·er rate of intrrc~t cb:e\Yherc, '\Yhic~t i~ not ofion.

ThP TRE.\~-n-RER: SoinetirncG. it pay~ him to Jo ;;.;o.

::\Ir. :i\IOOH.E: It does sonw1inws in busi­IH'ss .. hut it does not pay Inany people outside who ha n: 1nongagC'' on their property unless i hPy are .able to go to the ~-\gricultural B~u~k. As a rnlc, !"UC'h a person has to in to iind ::-orr10onc elsp to take over his li~hilitv. and then the GovPrnmeni will

·t:harge ~him again 'Yith the 1-ax. The TnEASURER. Is there not a now mort-

::\Ir. :'liOORE: It is a nansfer~not a 1ww mortgage. The old Act provided for onlv half rhal'9'0" in such an instance, but DO\~T the Gore1~~ment are char&"ing the full arnonnt. OtH'-hal£ l..Ya . ..; C)Uite pnongh. It llHlY not S{'L'trl verv rnneh to the Treasurer, bm' it is a good. deal to the unfortunate p0r~on concerned.

The TnEAt CREh: T~10 pnrpo::;;e is to tax the rnan who transfers the· in rc~tment t-o ·o;:omeone ebe.

:;\1r. MOORE: That B all right. The hon. gentleman is ab·ays looking at the matter from ono poiut of vie.-,~th<- point of vie'.' of the 111oncvcd Inan who 'vant-s ;1 twnsfer. I am looking at the matter from the point of Yic''" of the rnan oui~ide ·whO ha~ t') run l'Dund to find son1eone to V{hom he can tran·fer his n1ortgagc'.

The TREAScRER: ThcrP ar._• man\ people in 1'\orth Quccn•land \Yho han' n~oHcy as \\ell as Jll'Oplc in Bri-hanc.

i\Ir. K1xG: Th~ hon. geni-lcrn'm has a bit there hirnsPlf.

~fr. )IOORE: The hon. gentleman i.~ look­nt the n1ntter front tl1c point of view

an indiYidual tran~ferring the morLgago ,l...; a financial inv( :.;.tn1f'nt.

The TRJc'.Srm:u :· In anv case lw has to ray bc.•:..tus8 lhe1·e is a nC.w mod·gage.

Jih. l\IOOTIE: There is onlv a transfer fl'orn one indi,:idual to another~ or fron1 one l·,nk to another.

The TREAST:RER: It would be a new docu­tnent.

Mr. }100RE : It is a transferring of liability from one party to another.

'The TnEAsnu:n: \Yould they not have t.o execute a new docun1ent? The represcn~ tatiYe of the Cmninissioner states that is so.

J\Ir. ~IOOHE: I an1 not going to argue the point, hecauso he- is prett.y expert at blJLlE'Czing; nlOill.Y ont of people.

The TREASl"RErt: It is taxing the investor '\Yhca he i::; takillg out a DC\Y rnortgagc.

}lr. }lUOH.E: \Yhatcn'r ihe theory may lw. it io tltl' individual \ ho borrmn t.ho DJoney ''"ho pays.

)lr. ROBEHTS (Hc~·ct Too11'~oml){l): There i~ a lnt in wlut the hon. mcn1ber for Cunning­harn ~~~id. I cxpt:ricn<:~d .snch. an inci~ent rc,''Pntl~: in conne-etion 'Ylth a fncndly soc1cty in Too~ .. )()nlhn. 'l'he bank rrtanagor informed the socictv that he \Y>tS not sat-isfied with the inYC"·!lllCt}~t .. n.ud ~'lP had to shift our security to anoth, r bank ,\·hirh indicaterl upon vvhat lir.es "·c dlOuld prcct'etl. undoubt~dly the '·ill have to pay all the taxatwn, '\othinc- paid b-- the bank or the indindual fin~.~~ag- tht' arcolni110dation. Surely the Trea .. SlU'('r '·does not contend t.hat that i~ so! · Th0 Tm:.1srn£R: II0 cloes if he transfers the ~nortgagC' 1·8 sornC'one ebe.

:i\lr. HOBEHTS: He does not transfe:·· He oimn h· tc•lh the borrower that he IS

not :-ati~·Gt~tl with the p;ecurity, and that the horr,.,v;er mn::-t. look elsewhere for an advance. Ile h, . .:; to pay up the rnortgage and seek fnr ·-mn~'OnP els(" to advance the 1noney. \Yh011 wr ;.:;L'cnred onr ad\Tanc~ we a~sumed j r \YOll [(1 ll(' for a 11Ulllber of years. N ?t­wi!btaudiw~· that '"'' followed the adnce of 1l1c haul~ in the instance I haYe referred to. we ~hall again be rnulct in stan1p d~ty, ~~.ltho 1 p;h it i;..; only eighteen n1o:r:ths SlUCC

''" paid stamp dut:L \Yhat ~pphes to the g0twral body in connechon ':nth the case I n•f01TPtl to anpliPs to thu mdJvJdual. In on1: we e;n afford t.o pay it because it ,,-i 11 , pret d over the general body of the JWoplc. but tlw indiYidual canno~ afford ·it. Sonw coH::'idera1ion shonld be g1vcn 1n 1 his connection. and. if the Treasurer can sPf' hif' "\\'av not to inrrca~c this form of etamn duh·: lw will be c.-mferring a benefit oH t.l;e rna'n who is in financial stress.

Mr. KERR (l<~'no(l(trra): During t~he .course of tl!is clebarc the Treasurer has mtunated that some extravagant language has been 11~ott It P.f'C'ffiP. to n1e that there Is C'n:~ry excuse for extravagant language when the dnt.v on tran~fcrs is increased to such an 0xtent. '.Yhen the original document was taken out the dnt.-· chargeable was 2s. 6d. for eYcrv £50. b~t no\v when an original document ie takPn out the duty is 10s. On a h·ansfpr of that dorument previousf~v there 1\ .. 15 .c concP:'oion of 50 ]Wr C('llt. and down t,, b. ?.1. for the first. £50, but under this anll'nding Bill the duty in the case of a tran-fc ·has ;;one np to 10s.. which is an i~·crPa·~;: o-t :.;.onH~t1:1nr: like GOO per cent. ?\o - ')1Hler extrayn_gant langua:-'"'P. baP. been u::;ed in l'Pgarc1 i"o the Bill! The Treasurer kno,Ys that tht• ;x:;an who l ~1rro\ tht'~ ntonP.v on pver~v occ::L . .:ion p.1,\"S thi~ fee, and not. tho rr~o-::<'v-lclld('r or flnuncial institution. If he att.P.,;pted to borrow money, ho would. soon find 1 hElt the per~on who requires considera­tion ; ,~ ahra~ . .; tlw person v.-ho has to pay. Pcdwps the Treasurer thinks it is a s1na1l nnJount, but cYcn if it is, an increase of BDO per cent. in the.¥ duty chargeable in cor:­nection with the transfer of a docnn1ont IS

Mr. Kerr.]

1242 Stamp Acts [ASSE}IBLY.] Amendment Bill.

far too great. Although the Treasurer finds cause for complaint, I sa:, we have not gone far enough in opposing this BilL This very large increase should be fought tooth and naiL

The TREASL:RER (Hon, 1'1". McCormack, Uuirns): To satisfy the Leader of the Oppo-8ttlon, I want to pomt out the"t the mortgagee who transfers his rnortgago to another person may do so -without consulting the rnortg-agor. He rnay transfpr an inYc-trnont, and it is to tax that t thu.t this an1cndn1"Dt is introduced. Take the ca.Be nut for,vard by hon. rnombcr~ opposite of a rnortga~)'Ol' dc"''irillg to iransfcr l1is rnortgage fron1 ~ne bank to anothPr. \Yhat is the process in,-olvccl' Tlw iccond bank pays the Jirst bank the amount of the dPbt and a new instrunH'nt ha~ to be created. '

;\fr. KELSO : ::-i" ot necessarily.

The TREASL"RER: If a man is being pre,o;:.;;;ed, as stated b\ hon. mernbers opposite, he n1ay have to submit to \Yorse conditions than under the original mortgage.

l\Ir .. KELSO: C\ot worse conditions; they tell hnn he must reduce his overdraft.

Mr, KERR: you said a little while ago !hat It wa~ an lnYe"tmcnt; you cannot have It both ways.

The TRE,-~SCRER: I am onlv dealin~ with it from the point of viPw tluit it is a~ invc~tnwnt -h,hich a. 1nortgagoe i" desiring to change. and there IS a JlP\v document.

::\Tr. KELSO: l'\o-mcrd0' a transfer of the mortgage.

Tlw TREASCRER: In ninetv-niuc cas,es out of a hundred the second n1or~tgageo pays the first mortgagee the amount of mono\ due and ~l new ·d?cumcnt is brought into~ exist~ er1cc up~nl \Yluch the tra11sferror of the mort~ gage wtll pay the stamp duty.

:\Ir. K1xa : Suppose there is no uew docu­ment?

. Th0 TRK-\SL"RER: Hon. member, oppo­sit0. ~v.ant to ba::c an. argument on a :::.up­pmnbboufi case. I th1nk vYc arp \Yastlng a good deal o~ :eloquence upon the all< god wrongs and lDJUl'lCS of su1nc~ supposititious person ;.Yho rNtlly does not exist. The caso dealt with b.v the hon. member for Ea"t Too­woomba might not happ<'ll once in a hundred :·ea1·~.

:\fr. H.OBERTS: It happens CY,Cl"Y month in this State, ,

The TREASURER: It is Ycr diffcrPnt from the argument' nut fonnt;·d by the Opposition. '

::\:Ir. RoBERTS: It is a definite case

The. TRE"~ "\L"RER: I say that, generally speaking, thts w1ll not tax the man who has to chan.ge his bank because he has Lo create a new 1nstrume11t. The de:-:,irc is to tax the ~.nortgagcP \Yho transfers hjs 111ortgage as an mvcstmc•nt, and really c-ells it to some other person.

Mr. KIXG (Lo(Jan) : I can understand the Treasurer's desire to gee additional dutv on rhc execution of a new document, but "take the c:12e of a nlortgagE~e and Inortgao-or as an illustration. A lends B £500 at a rbeason­a ble rat,e of interest It is a prettv good mvcstmcnt, and the security is good. "\ wants l11s mane: beford the term expires, .and says to B, " If I can get somebody else

[Mr, Kerr.

to takp over that mortgage I will do so7

hcrausc- I \Yant :rny 1nonoy." As mortgagee, A transfers to C, who take' over the mort­f!'Hgc-thcro is a transfer of the n1ortgage. ThL'l'C' is no IIC'1.'~· ,document, as C takos over the same sPcurit-, at the same rate of interest for the balance of the term h:v a transfer of l1Jortgage. \Yh:, should he be charged adcli1ional mortgage duty? \Vhv ~hould it r:ot be lhc rrandcr duty prescriber] by the sechou ·:

The THE\ST'RER: That does not often h<tppcn.

::\Ir. KIKG: The Stamp Office will tell you tha ~uch ( Jf'C~ arise dav after dav. It i.;; 1 ot ('Ouflucd to banker,.v ·who takov oyer a 1Ylort.(_\'11,!2:0l'.;..; account and enter into a 11ew a rraiJgE·UIPnt altog('tlH'r. The Commi:-::sioncr might be quite justified in asking for a stamp duty if it \\·ere a new rnortgagc.

The TR.:.\Sl:RER: How does it affect the tnortgagor '?

:\h. KIKG : The mortgagor has to pav the duty eventually. Th<' first mortgagee trans­fct, all his right and interut to the new mol'tgagcc.

The THE'~l-RI:R: That b a transfer of property.

;\I1·. KING: He has the same rights as ths original rnortgagee.

The TREA'",URER: How do-os he charge the mortg-agor: He cannot do it unleb::> the· mortgagor is agree 1blc.

}Ir. KTXG: The mortgagee is the mo.-ing opirit. Ilr sa\ s, •· I \\"ant to got rid o£ this ~c~C'urity; I ·want m~, nlorw;~ ." lie can h·ans­fC'r hi~ f-f'C'lnity \Yithout auy consent by thn mort gEl gor.

The TREASl:HER · We do not charge the n"!.ortgagor.

:Hr. KING: Of course, not. The THEAST'RER: Then that breaks up your

case.

:Ylr. KIXG: Pardon me, it does not. I eannot uHdr r.-.tand the ho11. gentleman's logic.

Th•. THEASl'RER: You ar,c appearing for th( mongagor.

::\lr. KIXG: I am not appearing for any­body.

1~bt• TnEASCRER: You arc arguing on hi:­bclmlf.

::\Ir. KING: I am putting before the Tro :­HlL-r ..1 case \YllC'rc the mortgagee has tra.ns-: fcrred his rights to a11othor partv The rights of the partice under the instrument ru-e still ju-t the same.

The TREASCRER: Then, why should the mortg·agor be charged?

1\lr. KIXG : The mortgagor is not being charged.

l\Ir. CmTER: Yonr side haYe contended lhCLt he is.

::\lr. KH.:-G: This amendment is bronght i11 for the purpose of omitting parag-raph (2) of the paragraph in the schedule dealing "it !1 nwrt.g.ages, bonds, dcbcntuyc.-,, and cove­nants-

" (2) Transfer or assignment of anc nlortgage, bond. dcbentnre, or covenant, or of an'" n1onev or stock secured bv anJ-'"UCh inSl~!'Uillt.:Ilt'.'' '"

That pro,-idcd thct the dntv wa" half the principal duty. Take the cas~ I ha ·c already

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1243

mentioned. I ,,-ould ask the Treasurer if the Stamp Commissiorwr colic ·ts duty m .such a c.t:-e a.:;; that. There is a rnortgage of lalJd to A by B. A Sl'li~ out the n1ortgagc to C for £50~ or. it may be. for less. Does the Stamp Con1n1issioner charge stan1p duty on the consideration for the purchas'-" as \Yell a•,, mortgage dut) ?

)I c. c:. P. B~'\.R2'\ES (TT"onricl): It seems to me that both ~he hon. member for Logan alld th(• 'frNl."Hl'Pr arc right. but \'\'C arc oYcrloc '::iJJg tho fact that a 1nortgage is ahva; for a tcnn. and it <'.-.ruwt be called up behrc maturitY withont the coment of the pan if's. I ial~e it that, if it is called np before rnatnri('l to sui1 the mortgagee, he 'hould pay the dut:-. But if a n1ortgage lu" Inu.,tnrf'd a!:cltlH~ rnongngec requires it to be !laid ofL natnrally. if the mortgagor f!.'iYrJ a nr•yv nlortgt1ge, he n1nst pa~~ the piper. Thi." ls ::111 cxtremclv serions n1attcr. The point rai eel bv hon. ~n£>mbers ou thi~ side is rather a i to the C'x~·e:---ivc charge. There is a doubt as to \\·hetl-,cr the c-harge is to be 10s. [or cn·ry £00 Dr 2s. 6d. for e\·er:, £50.

'T'h0 THEM:;rRER: In this ca~e it is a lump snrn of 10s. for PYer £50. 1t would come und€'r '· C·)nveyanre "of any other kind."

:\Ir. C. P. DARXES: \Yill 10s. coyer it wlwthcr the a:nnunt is £50 Oi" £500 ·:

The TREISL"IWR: Yes. The argument has not reYolvcd around t.hat i:-::·~uc.

1fr. G. P. DAR:'\ES: :\o, but it has been pcrti11ent to it. The quc~tion has been raised Lee<ltF~c 1 he eh a rges arc to be PXC'r-,sive upon thP man who rnay have to ereate a new docu­HH'nt. If it is to be 10s. on a £50 transac­tiou, it i;-. not C'xees5'ivc, and as~ on ascend, it bc.comcs a Yer~· light <'1\arge. The Treasurer hns told us that tlle charge is to be not more than 10s .. but I arn af1·aid that he is not right. I hope he is.

:\Ir. DEAC'O:'\ (Cunni,[!hum): Let us make thif, n1att0r quite clear. It if' not certain that the Trca\?ltn'r is correct whln he ~a\'8 that thP. dut_·· uwJPr a mortg1-gc IYill nvt be rnorc than 10:".

Thf' TRr\~:1-RER: The transfer ~Jf property wdl carry ,~cl Yalorcn1 duty.

1! DE:ACO:'\: h tiw m :-:imum amount chargeablP upon the \Yhole n1ortgag'? 10s. for cnr"· £50":

Tlw T.- '.SL.RER: It rr!l depends on ihe in;-.trument.

;\lr. DEACCl:'i": If he r;oc, to the bc,nk to bolTU'' JTiOne::, the rate is 10::-. O.!.l eYery £50?

Th ~ TREA~L'RER: On a. nev: n1ortgage it will be 2.s. ·scJ. for e'·ery £50.

}L·. DEACO~: And if it is a tran::;fer, :r ic· lOs. for eYery £50?

~ The TREAS('RER: rrhc transfer of property 1ron1 one mortgagee to another c:arric& ad

alorem duty.

~,[r. ROBERTS (HaJI Torncoom ba): I do r;ot know tl1o exact position in connection \Yith thi~ 1natrer. The TreasurPr ~ays sorne­thiJ:~' abou~- 2s. 6d., something about· 5-~., anu SO_Tl1('t 1llflt_r about 10s. l-Ie has on his left ba.a.! an offic T of the Stamp Of!ice and I a~k hir:n to tell us what a l~er-·.on \'rill have to pay on the transfer of :.1ortgage on an amount of £1,000.

The Tin~ASLREH: Tell us the nature of the transactiD!L

::\1r. RODERTS: I can cite the eaee I mcntior1ed a fc\v mornents ago, where a bank l1as intimated that the obligations are not being carried out and demands that certain things be> done or certain action will be taken. \Ye are told that the bank cannot do that. but I know the bank can. If ~·on do not act up to your obligations, the bank c. n foreclo'.('

Tht• TREASCRER: l1""inish yonr case.

::\Jr. RCJBERTS: I have. I have insbmccd a ""'e of £1.000.

TJ1e TREA 4·rnt:R: Your case is a 1nortgage of £1.000 and a transfer to another mort­gagee?

1Ir. TIODERTS: Yes. Th" Tm •SCREll: The amount of duty would

be £2 10,. ::\lr. K~LSO: 111e same as for a new mort­

gage? The TRE.ASl'RER : It w·ill be a new mort­

gage.

:Mr. ROBERTS: In the case I am citing the· unfortunate inrliYidua.l will be called upon to p~y £12 10s. lie paid that amount GHly eightcr:n rnonths .ago, and it is hard oa a.ll indiYidual ·who is in straits for 1noney that he 'lwulcl be called upon to pay tha·t an1ount oYer again. Perhaps some-thing he has :nticipated has not come Dff. he is ur.able to p. _y off the n1ortgage in the eigh~ teen months in which he agreed to do so, and the morto-·ao·cc sa'".·s "You will have to gL t another J~~o~tf~agc8 ;' I an1 not going to bulhcr abcnt your security." \Ye arc in that position to-day. \Ye will obtain the aC'counnodation clsc·where, but the unfor­tunate rosition is that, because of the llCC,~S­sitoUS position of this man, he will have to l -<Y the stamp dnty oyer again.

The TREASI'RER: Yon are making out a c:'"' cf hardship that has nothing to do with r,(amp duties.

1fr. RODERTS: I think it has to do with ~tan1p dtJty.

1:1e THF.\~_.rRER: ThcTe rnay be something v;rong with } our security that is creating the l, rdship.

:\1r. RODERTS: There is nothing wrong Y\-ith the .:ecu1·it). :\1:· l)Urpose is to sho'v t!Jat under these conditions we have to pay a certain an1ou1Jt iu stan1p duties for a new

-\, l1ich the rrreasurer, under this .l'Js to incr...:aso considerabl.v.

Tr.EASURER: This Dill will not touch your case. You will still ha vc to pay the duties proYided under the principal Act.

i\lr. RODERTS: That is something to be satisfied about. Lut. notwith·,tanding that aewrance, \\C shall still have to pay £12 10s. in dut.c~ for iran~fcrring the n1ortgage, and I consider this man should be relieved of that liability. The Trea·urer in his good­J:~ss of heart, in the interests of all people in diflic-ultie,, chould seek to relieve them a.·i far as possible of the .c chan;cs. I occup0 1 he po~_.ition of a trustee in a fncnd1y society, a.ncl I know \That rnany people are up against. I know the n1en who come to us in their cliflicultics.

The TREASt:RER : veople possessing borrow upon it.

There arc numbers of propert:, who cannot

Mr. HOBERTS: Cases have come nnder 1ny notice where we hav-e atternpted to assist

Jir. Roberts.l

124! Stamp Acts [ASSK\IBLY.] Amendment Bill.

men in dif!icultieo, and these men are always called upon to pay repetitional stamp duties. If there is no increase in the amount o£ Inoncv borrowed ou the transfer of a mort­g~.gc: there oug·ht to be some relief for the rnortgagor.

The TREASrRER (Hon. W. :\IcCormack, Cuirms): The ho~J. 1nembor':-3 casu raay be a hard one, but it has nothing to do •.sith r:turnp duties. It 1s a. case of sorueonc bon'O\\ ing n1oney ,T;ilo:"c security has boeorno doubtful.

l\Ir. R03ERl,:i: His cccurit" lms not become doubtfuL

The TRIL\S CRER: \V elL 1 he lender thinks it is a doubtful security.

:Mr. ROBC:HTS: Il e does not.

The TREASUHER: Am·how, he ha, cxerci::Jcd hi$ i'ight to foreclose.

:\Ir. RonEHTS : That is right.

The TREASURER: Has the man in the c.1.se rncntionerl bv the hon. 1nember defaulted in his pa}:ments?

Mr. ROBERTS: Ko. L 4 p.m.]

The TREASI:RER: You are compelled to look for accommodation else»·hero anJ to obtain a ne\v invosttneut upon "\vhich duty must be paid. That all arises out of the fact that the original security did not wit the original lender. I admit that a pe"on with a farm mig·ht find himself in that unfortunate position, but that has nothing to Jo with stamp duty.

Mr. J\foom;: You arc aJJing to the tax. Previously the duty was Is. 3d. on £50, and now you are making it 2s. 6d. on £50.

The TREASuRER: Is all this hardship to be created bv the addition of another ls. 3d? It may ·be a case for investigation where there is distress, but to put an amend­ment in the Stamp Act to give special con­sideration to an isolated case such as that mentioned bv the hon. member for East Toowoomba i~ ridiculous.

Mr. RonERTS: There are anv number of such cases. ~

The TREASI:RER: There are not. Had the mortgagee investigated the case thoroughly, hr· wou!J not have advanced the monev at the start. The situation is not brougl1t about by stamp duty. The few ,.hillings would not make an;· difference in the case of a Jnortgagor 1vhen the mortgagee said, '·You will ban· to find someone else t0 take over this n1ortgage. I am going to foreclose." Had the prOtlCl' conditions been fulfilled in this instance. the mortcrao·e.o would not have been able to fore• losZ ·~mbl the f'Xpiratlon of th(' tPrm of the mort::sage. \Yhen he did foreclose. harshlv or otherwise, the mortgagee would still ha \·e to pa v the ::;ta1np duty. becau~r a ne\v insh·un1cnt -\;ould have to be taken out.

Mr. ~JOORE (.-1u!Jilf, y): The Tn'asurer r"ls loct eig-ht of the point altogether. The pGint 1 tha I of the transfer-not of anv forrclosin--:: of a n1ortgagc at the end ~f a tern1 or Uccan.se a n1an c!ocs not n1ect hi:; obligation~.

Tho TREASTc'RER: I ha·;e dealt with the casr· r:;nhrni'ite-'1 bY the l~on. 1nernLer lor East Too\Yoombn.'"'

?vlr. i\!OOnE: The sociot•; referred to bv the hon. n10IT1Lcr \VEts iold to find a n01.: ..

i 1 ,r,. Robcrts.

mort-;agec. under the old Ad they \Vould have had to pay b. 3d. fm· every £50, .when tbcy now havP to pay 2s. 6d., whicJ:t IS an added in1position. The 111ortgagor 1v1ll have t.o P"': the amount. If the mortgagor has to lind wmeone else to take over the nsk, ho is told, ';You 1nust pay the stamp duty."

~·1 r. 1'\RTER: That is not a transfer of ntGrt[{Hge. but a new IT1ortgage.

;:..rr. CI100RE: It is a transfrer. ;\.Ir. C,\RTER : Then the transferror has to

pay. 1\[r. ;:..IOOHE: The reason for this amcnd­

nJent i, to increase the fees payaulo to the e:dc·Jt of ls. 3d. on every £50.

Thlr. C · RTER: It is not a hardship.

1\Ir. CllOORE: It may not be a hardship 1o the hon. nH'tnbcr sitting here ancl recOIVlllg o·, od remuneration. but it is a hardship for ihe tnan conc0rned. The rate has been put up from b. 3d. to 2s. 6d. on eYery £50 for th~ purpose of securin_g a_ddi;ior~al reYenue, and we contend that IS a harash1p. The hon. rr1e1uber for East Too,Yoomba quoteJ. a definite case \Y~erc hard?hip existed, and the Trb;.surer tned to Slde-step the issue and sa v that no hardship existed. That societ.-v has· to pay £12 10·. instead of £6 5~.. and that certainly is a hardship. \Yhen a man finds himself in the unfortunate position of having to seek a loan this additional irnvosition is plac,:Ll upon h1m. The Trea>tneJ· onlv looks at the matter from the point of Yic·,,: of ihe investor. whereas ... e an' looking at it from the point of view of tlw man ,,-ho is compelled to find accom­modation clsevvhcre.

Mr. EDWARDS (Xanango): It is well known that peopk in the count-ry arc com­pellcJ from time to time to get accommoda­tion under whatever conditions are offered to them. Vcrv often after thev fix up a mort­'~"UD"C the cond1tions altcr-vveavther conditions ~1;y be different-which upset the '':'hofe of their calculat-ions. and, if they fa1l 111

one part·icular to carry out the agreement, lhe:• may be to!J immediately to find accom­modation elsewhere. That occurs frequently in countn districts and it will be a hard­ship on these peop\e if they are compelled to p,>y 100 per cent. extra stamp duty on the transfer of the mol'lgage. At the pres~nt 1 irne the Agricultural Bank is besieged w1th a pp! ica tions to take oYer mortgages from other banks. rmd it will be hard if people who are in difticuities arc comp,llcJ to pay 100 p£~r cent. rnore than they are asked to pay under the ]HO'f'ent .Act.

;:.,ir. llOBERTS (Host Toau:onmba): I want to say quite definite].) that the reason I citeJ the ea'~ I did this afternoon was not because thcTP \Yas any pruticula~ hard­ship ia that case. but simply to pomt out that· thc.::ic ea'.--., do an:;;c I could c1te n1any other cascb. Onlv v,~sterda:: afternoon I t'igned the' paper~ 'fol: a n1an· who Wfl'J c.mn­pcllod to tru n, fer his mori-ga;;e. Th"':'•( .th1ngs arc' occurriilf{ ever~,- \Yerk, but, as th1s case , ( Lrinp· dealt with bv nr ... eH and the Hco'isnar'' of Frienrllv S<icicti: '· I cit-ed it, n~:-t''tl!ut th:re will· be anv diHicnlti(·::> in c,JllHPction \Yith , it. becau · as a friendly ~·cic·t\' w·· c.dl ctll jn our rt sen'l3 and see

thlnF th, oucrh. Bni in the ( cl~O of an l1. v.~ndd be <1 hnrd~hip. Tho

.-·i.l!ned the doeum0n1 for ye ter­'"'<l! have '{o pa~~, and not the man w.ho

lhr ll'C'ey. If it \Yas th2 man w1th

Starnp Acts [20 OcTOBER.] Arnendrnent Bill. 1245

the money who paid, I would not. waste the time of the Cornmit.tce for one moment. I am pleading for the man who has to pay the interest.

Amendment (Jir. Deacon) negatived.

The TREASURER (Hon. \Y. ::Y1cCormack, Cairns): I beg to move the following amend­ment:-

" After line 32, pe,gc 13, insert the following new paragraph:-

' (10) under t.he heading 'Policies of Life Insurance ' the following pro .. vision is inserted :-

' Excm1Jtion. ' Life policies not exceeding £50.' "

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): Does this amend­llH'nt Inean that existing life iusurance poli­cies will have to pay 4d. for rach £100 on renewal?

The TRE.'SVRER: They will not. although it was contended before that they W01,1ld. H could not be read that way.

J\h. TA YLOR: Are \Ye to understand that existing life insurance policies or future life insurance policies will not have to pay 4d. p<'r £100 on renewal?

The TJ:EASURER: That is so.

Ho"'. \Y. H. BARNES (1T'ynnum): Read­ing· this as the Treasurer has put it, it 'ccms to me that. the exemption is only up to £50. The 'rreasurer has said that all life policies arc exempt, but this does not seem to deal with that matter. It seems to me that under the amendment everv life polio;.· up to £50 will be exempt, but' any­thing- abm·e £50 will be taxable. I am not doubtinp; the Treasurer's word, but he may be under a misapprehension, and this is one of the things we want to be perfectly clear .•bout, became t.here is nothing so Yital to the individual as a life insurance policy. Here it is as distinct as it can be that only £50 is exempt, and that abo.-e that amount it. is taxable. \Vill the Trea­surer give us a definite assurance?

The TREASl'RER: If you sit down, I will <'xplain it.

Mr. G. P. BARXES: Deal \Yith renewals as well.

Tlw TRF.ASl'RER (Hon. W. ::\1cCormack, r''lirn.<): The amendment means that all life policies up to £50 will be exempt from stamp duty. and then all life policies will only paY stamp duty without renewal, as at prc•c nt. The dnties as the' stand in the A et to-da:. will still opera t.c. •

An 0PPOSITIO"' J\1E)IBER: \Vhat about new polich'·::.?

Thn TREASuRER: A new policy will pav the some as it does to-day. Life policies will remain as t·hey arc at present.

Hon. IY. H. BARxEs: No additional taxa­tion?

The TREASL.:RER: No additional taxa­tion.

Yir. KI:;\JG (Lc(mn): The Act at present provides a duty 1v-ith regard to poli,ics of life innuanC'c as fn11ows :-

" \YhP"l t h0 sum ln~urrd exco"cls . .c-sn h"t, does not exceed £lC0-£0 1 0"

Why the ncccssrtv for putting in the Bill an exemption in regard to ltfe policies not exceeding £50, when it is already provided in the _\.et 1

The TREASl'RER: It has been put. in the wrong place. It does not read yory clearly in th" Act.

~Ir. KIXG: \Ye have now got it in two places--in the Act and in this Bill. I think it is surplusage in the Bill, because the exemption i' cont-ained in the Act at present.

'\mendmcnt (Jir. J.lcCormac!.; agreed to.

The TH 2 \SURER (Hon. \Y. J\IcCormack, ('ail't"): I uc ;· to mo·. e the following amend­rncut--

" 1 'n lines 41 and 42, page 13, omit the \VOl'dS--

' (a) By eac-h (kclaration under marine open poli,it•s-£0 0 4 '_

nud ill"Crt the "\Vord:::;~ · (o) Bv marine open policie-s under

y,·hich ~declaration~ are rGadc-£0 0 4.'"

.\mendment agreed to.

:iir. KELSO (Xundah): This is rather com­plicated in view of lines 44 to 50, but I would like the Tr0asm·er to le ll us definitely whether the duties in those lines refer solelv to fire insurancp policies or whether they include life policies.

The TREASl'RER: They refer to fire, marine, and acDident insurance and exclude life insurance.

Mr. KELSO: On renewal?

The TREAScRER : Yes.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. 1\IcCorma.ck, Cairns) : I beg to moYe the following amend­ment-

" On lines 53 and 54, page 13, omit the \Vordt>-

'Exemption. 'Life polirieo not exceeding £50,'

and insert the words-

' The duty upon a marine insurance policy issued in Queensland and "lso upon the renewal receipt for any lire or accident insurance may be denot"d by adhesive stamps.'"

Amendment agreed to.

J\lr. MOORE \Liubign"): I beg to move the following amendment-

" After line 54, page 13, insert the words-

' Anv policy of jn::;uranC'c ag·a:in:-;t lo" b}- fire O'l Jll} public hospital;

' Any policy of in~untn{ c against loe< by fir<' on the tools or implemt .. '11s of \YOrk or laLour used bv anv \York­rnan. mechanir. artificer. ~handi<"'rilft,:<­man. or labourer, such :insurance being effected by separate policy m a clistinC't surn.' n

These exemptions from renewal duties, arc. <o far as I can discover, granted in four of lhe other States. I could not find the statutes in the case of the other two States. Appa.rently it is regarded as a fair thing that public hosnitals, whose insurances are pretty heavy, should not pay these duties . A hosnital is onlv a Government instru­mentality run by a hOBpital board, a local

lJfr. Moore.]

1246 Stamp A~ts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

authority. or a committee. and I do not think it is a fair thing tlutt it 'hould be ta.xed on renewals of policies. It is quite eJlOugh that it should have to pay the pre­rniurn "\vithout asking it to take rnoney out of one pocket and put it in another.

The TRE '1.3'CRER (IIon. \V. l.IcCormack, Cuirns) : Tl 0 object of the Leader of the Opposition may be all rig-ht, but I \Yant to infonn hin1 that people 'vho insure do not pay the stamp duty. Th~ insurance com­p,mies pay the stamp duty.

Ai 4.20 p.m.,

2\Ir. F. A. CoorER (Brem 1') rcsnmcd the {'hair.

Mr. CLA.1TOX: Do they not pav it indi­rectly?

The THEASL'RER: The insuram' co:ct­panics pay the ~tan1p duty on all policiej.

1\Ir. I-I. :u. RuESELL: Kot at all.

The TREASFRER: If they did not, thc,­could not cornpete ~,~;ith the cornpanies that do pay. The Statu Insurance Office pays the clutv. I cannot see that anvone will obtain any~ rcliPf und~...'r the anlt'lld~ncnt except the big insurance eorupanies, and ::;urely no one would :,ay they shoulcl not be taxed !

Mr. Moom: I do not think they do pay it.

The TRE~l.SlTRF.R: The Deputy Commis­sioner a,,ures me that they do. I know that, as a matter of policy. they -rlo. To secure the business they must do what others do.

Mr. 1IAXWELL: Tlwy pass it on.

The TRE_\SL'RER: The: ~annat paso it on.

Mr. K I:'\G (Loyan): The Treasurer has a;-;kf~d us to sv;allo\v a good df'~-d yt 'iiterday and to-day.

The TREASURER : They are proposing- to pay the renewal duty in spite of the wails we have hear-d.

Mr. KING : Although the hon. g-entleman may honPstly think they pay it, he must ]mow they pa;s it on. It is included in the premium. Otherwise, how could they carry on their business? Do they not include over­head expense-; and everything else in their premiums?

The TREASURER: How do they accumulate thci r wealth '1

Mr. KING,: Thev do not accumulate their v.-calth by doing nothing.

The TREAST;RER: \Yhen a competitor comes into the fiel-d and does it, then thov have to do it, too. ·

Mr. KIKG: That does not mean that, when a new con1petitor corneJ into the field, they an\ not protecting themselves. The Trea,-_,urcr sits b 1ck and smile~, that sn1ile of .1 b:-:o1ute ~upLTiority as though he knows cvcr!~thing. Even his own supporters do not ~"allow what ho has just stated. IIe does not believe it himself. You cannot induce t hc,,o institutions to do something for nothing·. The) get it back in some way.

The TREASrRER: They lose a little of what they alrcad:? have.

. 1\'lr. HOORE: Like the oil companies pay­me.· customs duty on petrol.

The TREAST:RER: The intention of the Leader of the Opposition is all right.

[ll!r. JJ1oore.

l.Ir. KI:-\G: They are paying for it some­how.

The TREA'•T:RER : I am told that they pay stamp cluty.

Jl,lr. KI:'\G: I do not bclie;e it.

Amcndrnent (J/r. Jioore) negatived.

:\Ir. KELSO (Tundah): I ask the Trea­cmcr to ,,-ithclraw paragraph (1) of the , chcdule rclati11g to the imposition of a dalllp duty on proxy votes. \Ye clcbated this matter before. A stamp duty of 3d. is to be impo-,ed upon evny document autho­ri:;;ing ~on1e lH'rson other than the holder of the share~- to vote; for hir:n. It is only a letter ~ ~k]ng the compan.}" or some pcn3o;J t.') do thi, business for the shareholder. The Tr. '"urer 11ill be up against us _,-ith the sun1o arg-unlCllt that ho u~eu ve,otorda v and this mo;ning--that the other 'states do it. H does not t1cccssaril" follow that we should do H. ·

The TREA~lREH: A good precedent oughl t,o be followed.

JUt. =\l.IXWELL: You have follo·,,-ed soma pretty bad precedents to-day.

.Mr. KELSO: I ask the Treasurer what it ruc'an~? Shareholders reside all over the country. The l1on. gentlcn1an kno\YS that most companies are situated in the capital cities, and all the people who have shares in them ha YC not the opportunity to travel to ihe capital and record a vote on certain tl1ing~ at. the rneetings of. the cotnpany. so they inform the company by letter that they prefer that a certain gentleman should act for them. For· every authority to exercise a proxy vot0 a stamp duty of 3d. is to be imno,ecl. Take the case of the tlwu,,ands of 'shareholders in butter factories. It may not suit mam- of those shareholders to travel, in some caSes long djstanccs, to n1eetings of the corn pany. A rnecting m a.:-- be an important one, but, :ts they are making their living and cannot afford to leave their work and !os the time occupied in travelling to the meeting, they depute some other person to act a, their proxy. These proxies run into thousands, and this duty in a great many instances will prevent these people making their voice heard.

The SECRET'RY FOH LABOcR AKD IxnrsTRY: They will get the whole lot done for 3d.

1\Ir. KELSO: lTp to the present they have it done for nothing, and they have a perfect ,.; c;ht to appoint someone else to vote for them. \Yhy penalise shareholders in country districts where tra'l'elling, in addition to the to~s of \YOrk thereby incurred, means a great deal to these people?

:Mr. KI:-\G (Logan) : I desire to seek some information fronl the Treasurer in regard to a power of attorney. The power of attornev nlilY authorise the attornev to attend , ,,,P<'tillgS and vote for the share­bolder. To beg-in with, the power of a 1 torne:· is stamped. Has that power of attorneY to be stamped ever:· time that attorne~- attends a meeiing and uses that po\YCr in the exercise of the authority YC'".ted in hin1 ·:

The TREASrRER: :-\o; it is alrer,dy stamped.

:\Ir. KI='iG: Has the po>Yer to be further stamped to exercise the right to record the \'Oto '?

The TREASVRER: A power of attorney is a different thing.

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1247

2\lr. SIZER (Sandgate): It is evident that ·,f he Treasurer is not inclined to give \Va:t '0 far as proxy votes by FhareholdPrs of butter f actorics are concerned. "'hat will bP the position in regard to stamping an authority to exercise a proxy yot.e in Parlia­uwnl 9 (Laughter.)

Tlw SECRET.\RY FOR PcBLlC \Yorms: You know tl1o law relating to the Crown.

l\lr. SIZER: :\Ir. Theodorc would have been called upon to find 120 stamps under i his rnc.::tsure.

The TRE.\ScRER: It would be money well >pent.

'\Ir. SIZER : \Yill that form of proxy bo 0XOmpt?

'l'ho TRE.\ScRER: I will make inquiries

Mr. W ALKEH (Coorooru): I hope ihe Trca~urer \vill \vilhdra\Y the ::mbclanse with rr·fcn_'rH. to prox: .. ·-yotirJg fc, _. Thl' · . ~h 111 of proxy voting ha" \Yorked YQl'"\'" sue( ,~~:::sfullv

. . in the past. Perhaps there i·, [4.30 ]l.m.] nothmg- liko JWl'SOlHll experience

as an exanrvle. Soruc vcars ago . \Y!' started the \Yi(Ju Bay Co-oj_x~r~tt,iYo Dairv

Con1panY, ,,·ith shnrC'h'olders over a \·er:, large area. At that tinte l haJ something over 300 proxy votes sent to nwself. an.l l think the "holo of the men stand!ng rts dircc· tor~ ba,-o had something like COO \'ate-:: seu~­to thPrn. If the GoYcrnnleut n1akc a ch:-n_ ·~ on tho!"c proxy Yotes. even if it bJ onlv ~d. on each Yotc~ they will inflict a hnrdshin on people who are unable to attend rncciinu ~ through distance and other circnn1sta.nc!;. A strearn may be up or there rJ:la v be sorne other natural cilctnnstance<S Preventing attendance, and the infliction of this fee will be a hardship. My experience proves that proxy voting has been done a\vav \vith to a great extent becau9e we do not 'look upon it as the cleanest method. There have been exalllp1cs ":here proxy votes have been stowe·d away m pigeon holes for years and brought out on appropna.te ocr'lsions. 'l'hat is not a custom that we stand for. but t.he 3d. will not overcome that . sort of thing. Proxy votmg properly nhhsed 1s a very useful method.

Again. in connection with the ;ylurarrie Baf•on Company, proxy voting is very exten­"vely used. and this small tax will eliminate its use in such a way that we shall not have u true reflex of the opinions of sha.reholdcrs on all subjects. In viow of the small aggre­!:(ate amount that would be collected through ilns 1mpos1t10n, I consider it is not "·ort.h wlnlc for the Government to bring it into fore<' when .one cons1dors that il; will mean tlw destructiOn of a fkmocratic svstem that ha,;; clono a considerable arnount 0£ r:.Jod in f'onncdion 'vith co-operative concern;. \Yill 1t ln' nccps_~ar~,~. to 12a.'~ a f0e for proxy votes I hat arc used m th1s House; also will it be nrr('S~arv to pa:· on c;ach occasion a prox_, ,-ate 1s u ,ed_ at a meehng?

, The TREASURER (:l-Ion. W. 1\lcCormack, ( atrns): Perhaps a good case has been m·ade out in favour of prox) votes not being taxed, and I therefore move the following a,<ncnclnicnt : ~

" On. lines 5 to 8. both inclusive, page 14. onnt paragraph (1) reading·-

' (1) For the sole yurpose of appoint­mg or authonsmg a proxy to vote

at any one ':leeting at which votes may be g1ven by proxy-

For each person executing such instrument-£0 Os. 3d.'"

LntN on I will have to insert an exemption at the bottom of the subsection or people ,~;l] have> to pay tho 10s. instead of 3d.

c\mondmont agreed to.

2\Ir. KELSO (Xu:nda1t): I beg to move the following a1nendment:-

" On lines 9 to 15. both inclusive, omit paragraph (2), namely-

• (2) Engagcint•at or appoinhncnt 1EH1L•r thL• Auctioneers and Commis­·'ion . \g<'nts Act,, 1922 to 1924-

\YJH're the Ya1uP of the p 1·0!JC•r.;y doPs not oxcc·ocl £500-£0 0 3;

Exccocl, £500. but does not excPed £1,000~£0 0 6:

Exf'"f'cls c£1.00u, for l"'(')'C' £1,000 and ah-o for P\~enT f··aetiona'I part of £1.0J0-£0 0 6; .

But :-;nch dntv :-hall Hot cxcPed t0n :-;hillings.'" ·

propo'-P to follov.- up this a1ncndtnent bY 111oring ~ubscquently the insertion aft>·r pari­gra;Jh (6) of tho words-

·· 1-,'.rt 111plir;n.

Eng.tgrrncnt or uppointnwnt nndl'l' thP A net iuncr'l':-J- uud Corrnnission ~\g·ellt;-, Act~, 1922 to 192~.''

()f all the irritating tactics one can ihink of this is the champion of the lot. It mu•t be r0rncrnbered that a uctionccrs arc bound round wit.h all sorts of conditions. In the first place he has w make application to be registered. and that application has io be considered b, a police magistrate. Ho has to pay a fee, and to find a bond for good be' ha viour.

Mr. COLLI:-<S: Do you object to that?

illr. KELSO: I am not objecting to that.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICDL'ft:RE : It is all done to safeguard the public interests.

Mr. KELSO: On top of these expenses 1ve lind the Treasurer bringing in a proposal that evPry hn1c a person engages an .auc­tioneer or connnission agent to do a.ny work, tho letter of instruction must bear stamp duty of 6d. for eYery £1,000 or fractional part of £1,000. If that· is not a t~·x on a 1nan'::: indush·~'.', I would liko to kno\~ vdwt it i:-:. It does 11ot onlv affect tlw man in Bri,bane who is on tfl8 spot aud wl1o wifihcs to dispose of a. 11ropcrty; but it also affects thousands of people in the countr.v \Yho authori~(' ,_:._ comrni~ ion agent in Brisbane to di,pose of some of their property. lt ma-- be 1,000 tolls of produce or some­thing- •+e. and a letter l1>1s to be sent to t h£' rornmission agent·. I-Ie cannot send a \'erLal instruct ion in writing, as the Irish~ man sa vs; he has to write and instruct that agent. a.nd evcr:v Ol1P of th0Sf' tl'anf'Uctions has to he stamped. \Yhy ., Because a man b~s >ornething to sell, and the auctioneer i-; tr\'ing to earn an honest living. Surelv the Treasurer ,,·ill be open to reason in thi's connect.ion. Auctioneers and commission agents. for some reason or other, have been looked upon with groat suspicion, and the

Mr Kelso.l

1218 Stamp Arts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

law endeavours to safeguard the public in the matter of registration. In addition to rhat, there is an association 'vhich does it:3 best-ttnd succecsfully I bl'li·eve-to assist the Government in seeing that auctioneers and commission agents arc ruen who run straight, and the association ·works in hannony ·with the Government officer appointed for that purpose. So not. only the Government are trying to do their best for tho pLlblic. in that regard. but the best of tho comm1sswn agents are also trying .to a~sist the Govern­nlcnt, \vhich, in the end_, UH~nn:-; n . ..;."i.~tl11.~· t!1c people to preycnt corn1nission agents ·· rook­'"g ' the public. But what encouragement i there when vou find that in a Bill like this cYcry ins(ruction they r_?;. t-and· the~-~ nlaJ- get. thousands in a year-has to boar ~tarrlp duty? There is a proyision in the Auctioneers and Con1n1ission :\gents Act which says that, if a man does not get a written instruction, ho has no right at la'v t·O sue for any debt. The consequence is that the auctioneer in self-defence must get written instructions from clients so that he can prot('ct himself and see that- whatever fee is clue is paid without trouble. I do not think the 'Treasurer can point to any other case ,,·here a. trade or association is burdened with a tax on a writ-ten instruction to carrv out work. 'They are all exempt, but in- this instance he has picked out the auctione~rs and con1mis7ion agents. For what purpose?

'The TREASC:RER : The broker is taxed.

Mr. KELSO: We know that t·he broker is taxed on a contract note.

The TREASURER : \V ell, shall wc strike· this out and tax him?

Mr. KELSO: I was waiting for the hon. gentleman to say that, but. I would rather not say what the hon. gentleman knows, because a certain agreement was come to with the Attorney-General. It is an honour­able agreement-, and I do not \vant to talk about it. At the proper time the Attorney. General will deal with the matter.

:Mr. O'KEEFE: Do not make insinuatiom_

Mr. KELSO: I would rather not touch on that phase, and will leave it for the .c\.ttorney­General to tackle. \Vithout mentioning the details of the case, I am certain that the Attornev-General \vill act in the wa;· that I am suggesting-that no fee whateve~ should be charged.

The TREASURER: "Without reference to the Attorney-General, I am going to have the tax.

::\fr. K.ELSO : I am trying to put forward arguments to show wh:.- it is a most unfair thing to do this. The 'Treasurer has heard part of my argument, but not the whole of it.

The 'TREASURER : I heard it the other clay.

Mr. KELSO : I am saying something in addition to what I said the other da v. The 'Tr·c Jsurer cannot point out to me any other caso in Queensland in which a man who is making a living is taxed when he is autho· risod to do certain work. 'The Treasurer picks out these unfortunate people who have to pay for a bond, and charges them with a tax on a. l·etter of instructions. I ask if that is fair? 'The 'Treasurer talks about taxes bearing on tho whole of the cnmmunitv. I am talk!ng about these men as a body--'.:they are paymg enough at the present time. Can the 'Tr<Jasurer show me a case of .any other professional man or tradesman who is penal·

[Mr. Kelso.

ised in making his living by having to pay a stamp duty on an instruction to do any work? If the Treasurer "·as a fairmindcd man, he \Yould ac;reo to this tax being \Yith­drawn, and I ack him to withdraw it.

Ho". W. H. BAR:"\ES (H'ynnum): During the pa _. age of the Bill I have asked the Treasurer on one or t"·o, occasions -what~ \Yould be the position of a snHtll n1an in tho couniry who a{h-iscs a con1mission agent that he wishes him to sl'll his goods. Lot me put the mo ttcr before the Committee in .a homch \V a~\. People in the country frequently advisC con1n1ission agents to 3Cll a ton of potatoes or hYo or three cases of C-'ggs, and the 'rrea­eurer \Youlcl find on inquiry that there arc probably dozens of thc'.C cases occurring CY·ery da: . If the lcttor of a·dvicc has to carry a 3d. ~tamp, it is going to be an .awful hard­ellip 011 the omall producNs. It is going to be <tllother thing· \vhich is going to hit tho p.nHJll 1nan more particularly, because a great deal of that mone'-' goes to the housewife. I bad a typical ca:-;e" this morning in which the cheque for the proceeds amounted to bel\Yecn £2 and £3. 'The letter of advice '' ·1:· addros.::ed to us with instructions to pay the scr.:dl'l''~ ife. nud not thr ,,ritl~l'. ln· conn{'rtjon with mY own. business, without Plllarging one iota, 'there will be in one week hundreds of those small cases in which no amount will exceed £5. Are theoe p€oplo g·oing to haYe to pay a 3d. stamp in each case? If thev are. it will be bad for the Governn1c•nt, Und, 1~1ay I say, very good for this Rid('. But we are bigg·er than that; \Ye

are out to prokct the small man on tho land. I hope tho 'Treasurer will sec the point 1 have raised.

I would also draw his attention to para­graph (6)-

" Of anv kind whntmovcr nrt hereinbcfor"e cle,;cribed. or of any duplicate thercof-£0 10 0."

That i:". a most compr·ehcnsivc paragraph, and if it is carried, it is going to add to the difficulties in carrying on businec< between the man in the cil\ and the man in the country "-ho is trying to make a living under conditions which arc entirely unsatisfactory.

J'vir. KERH (l>"no{J{fCra): I would like to ask the 'Treasurer the ground on which this propo,;al is based. It seems to me that the amount is so small that the staff engaged to collect all these threepence-, and sixpcnC't's will cost more than the amount received. The Treasurer ought to giYo due consid 'ra­tion to the fact that auctioneers and corn­mi,lion ag·0nis pay substantial fees under th" Act recent!\ passed, and, if a stamp has to be attached'to eyery appointment or authority before they carry on their occupations. it is going to rnean a considerable amount. of c:qwnse. As pointed out by the hon. member for :\iimdah. it places them in a different posotion from that \vhich is occupied by any other body of men in what v;e might call a legalised occupation, and it seems to be an im·idious distinction. \Vhy should any­lJudv \vho hires an auctioneer or a, cominis­P.~0:1~ agent to condurt his businc:::s have t.o pay th0so duties an~: n1ore tha~1 if he hire l am·body in any other occupation in which til(' practitioners are p·overned by an Act of P"xli<lment. and pay fees? They will have to be paid whether business is transacted or not.. A man with a house worth £1,000 may write a circular letter to every agent of repute he knows of. Must every agent

Stamp Acts [20 OCTOBER.] Amendm0nt Bill. 1249

who receives that letter and undertakes to do his best stamp that letter? It seems as though he must. Surely that is going too far altogether! There are people who put a fictitious value on their property, b'-!t, if their letters are answered, the agents will have to pay the duty. At any rate, are we to assume that agreements have been arrived at which must be stamped? Surely this is a ridiculous state of affairs ! The Treasurer might at least explain whether it is intended to apply only if the agent carries out the work.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns) : There is something in the case put forward by the hon. member for Wynnum, a.nd, if the hon. member for Nundah will withdraw his amendment, I will move the following amendment:-

" On line 11, page 14, omit the words­' Where the value of the property does not exceed £500-£0 0 3;

and insert the words-' Where the value of the property does not exceed £100-No duty; ' Where the value of the property E'"I:Oeeds £100 and does not exceed £500-£0 0 3.' "

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I sug­

gest that the hon. member for Nundah wit.hdraw his amendment for the time being.

Mr. KELSO (Nundah) : I am very anxious to see the wishes of the hon. member for Wynnum gratified in order to meet the hardship that may be created in the class of business with which he is connected.

The TREASURER: There are other sales that will be affected.

Mr. KERR: Why not apply it to them all~ The TREASURER : I am. Mr. KERR: You are not. Mr. KELSO: I understand that there is

an exemption up to £100 only. As the Treasurer has gone that far, I ask him to meet the wishes of the commission agents and make the exemption £500.

The TREASURER: No. Mr. KELSO : There would be a fair num­

ber of properties under £500, but the revenue lost would not be very much. Will the Treasurer not agree to exempt transactions up to £500?

The TREASURER: No. It IS a valuable security.

Mr. KELSO: The hon. gent-leman has given way to one section, and, if he is open to reason, he must see that my argument applies with equal force. I ask the hon. gentleman to make the exemption £500.

The TREASURER : I cannot do that. Mr. KELSO: There is nothing to be

gained by a division. The discussion will show that the Opposition did their best, and it is now left for me to withdraw my amendment and allow the amendment t,o be moved by the Treasurer to bP carried.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I desire to ment.ion that I suggested that the hon, member for Nnndah could withdraw his amendment for the time being. If the amendment moved by the Treasurer is car· ried it will fix line 11, and it will not be competent for the hon. member then to go back to line 9.

1926-4 H

Amendment (Mr. Kelso), by leave, with­drawn.

The 'I'REASURER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns): I beg to move the following amend­ment:-

" On line 11, page 14, omit the words­' \Vhere the value of the property

does not exceed £500-£0 0 3 '

and insert the words-' \Vhere the value of the property

does not exceed £100-No duty. ' \Yhere the value of the property

exceeds £100 and does not exceed £500-£0 0 3 , ,

Mr. KERR (Enoggera) : Will the Trea· surer give the Committee some informa­tion as to when duty stamps should be affixed on an authority to sell? There seems to be some misunderstanding in the com­mercial world on this point. Is it necessary to affix the stamp duty to the letter that is written to the auctioneer, or is the stamp dul·Y to be affixed to the letter written by the agent acknowledging the receipt of the authority to sell?

Amendment (Mr. J:[cCorrnack) agreed to,

The TREASURER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns): I beg to move the following amend­ment:-

" After line 30, page 14, insert the following words :-

' The duties under paragraphs (2), (3), (4), and (5) may be denoted by an adhesive st·amp.' "

As hon. members are aware, through the omission of paragraph (1), paragraphs (2), (3), (4), and (5) will have to be altered to paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4). It is obvious that, with a letter of advice from a country district instructing an agent to sell some­thing, it would be a difficult matter to take it to the Stamp Office to have an impressed st.amp placed on it.

[5 p.m.]

Mr. ROBERTS (East Toowoornba): This [Jrovision is rather fatal. I have been care­fully watching the progrt'ss of this Bill, and have said time and again that it is the man on the land upon whom this taxation is inflicted all along t·he line. The Treasurer proposes to place this most unfair imposi­tion upon the man in the country. The very fact that the hon. gentleman is pro­viding for the use of adhesive stamps indi­cates t.hat, when a man writes to "John Brown, Auctioneer, Brisbane," that letter must have a stamp on it to the value of 3d., 6d., 1s., or in accordance with the value concerned. It is unfair. The more I think of the taxation that is being imposed on our unfortunate men in the country the more I am appalled. We have men on our streets with barrows earning an honest living, who are allowed a free fling, but before the man in the country can make a move he has to pay some t.axation to this Government-spendthrift Government of the past eleven years. It is disgusting and dis­graceful.

The T:E)MPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. KELSO (Nundah) : I ask the Trea­surer who is responsible for affixing these adhesive stamps?

Mr Kel~o.]

1250 Stamp Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

The TREASURER: The writer of the letter giving inst-ructions for the sale of the 1,000 head of bullocks, like the hon. member for Murilla, or whatever is concerned.

Mr. KERR (Enoggera): The Treasurer has answered the question I was about to ask, and states that the advisor has to affix the stamp. Who is going to judge as to whether a letter is an authority to sell or otherwise? It is difficult to discriminate with many of these letters. Only one thing is going to happen-the letter of advice will be placed in the waste paper basket and no stamp will be put on it. I never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. It is absolutely immoral, and every endeavour should be made to stop the Govermnent enforcing the provision.

The TREASURER: It is a letter of authority. Mr. KERR: The hon. member knows the

country people will be the only ones penal­iSed. A record will have to kept of the a!\ents throughout Queensland, and the Com­misSIOner of Stamp Duties will have to send an ir.spector round to look through their correspondence to determine what is a letter of advice to Bell, so that stamp duty may be affixed. The thing is absurd. The Trea­surer is only looking for trouble and for e' asions of the law. An auctioneer or estate agent may pick up his mail in the morning and get twenty or thirty letters each con­taining instructions to sell property. Similar letters may have gone to every auctioneer in the c1ty, and each letter will be liable to stamp duty. I could instance a proposition that is now placed in the hands of an auctioneer in connection with property worth £30,000. The letter of advice in regard to that. proposition, according to the Echedule, wlll _have to pay a stamp duty of 10s. as a max1mum. On everv letter of such a nature a stamp duty of 10s~ must be placed. Busi­ness ca':not be conducted in that way. The next thmg will be that, 1f a person sends an or_der to a firm to supply certain goods, he wlll have to put a stamp duty on it. The thing is hidicrous. I hope the Treasurer even at this stage wlll consider what he is doing. We know that throughout the debate he has shown that his knowledge of the Act is very limited indeed ; but he ought to know that this is going to interfere with business and surely the time has arrived when som~ commonsenEe methods should be adopted.

The TREASDRER: The time has arrived when the Commissioner should be able to come here and express his views on his business as you ar<' doing. '

Mr. CLAYTON (Wide JJay): I should like to know whether, if I were to write to some individual informing him that I had a cer­tam number of stock for sale and quoting a pric0 I would have to place a stamp on the letter I forwarded to that individual

The TREASURER: I won't answer that. JY!:r. KERR: You are getting annoyed now.

It IS your usual procedure to get annoyed when you are criticised, but it won't get you anywhere.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I mmt ask the hon. member for Enoggera to restrain himself.

:&~r. WARREN (Murrumba): This is too senous a matter to get annoyed about. It seems to m':' that, if I own 1,000 starving sheep and m an endeavour to dispose of them to save their lives, I send letters to ten

[.Mr. Kerr.

commission agents, every letter would have to be stamped. I am sure the Treasurer has sufficient business instincts to see how ridicu­lous that is. It seems to me to be childish and dangerous to business and to the class of people who will be hit by this tax. The Treasurer ma·de some reference to the hon. member for Enoggera bringing his business into this matter.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. WARREN: I am referring to this matter. of that description who is this taxation.

quite in order in It is not a man

going to be hit by

The TREASURER : If you give any agent power of attorney to sell those 1,000 sheep, you would have to pay the 3d. tax.

Mr. KERR: It is not a power of attorney. The TREASL!RER: It is the equivalent; it is

a letter of authority to sell those sheep.

Jliir. W ARRE~: In order to get rid of those 1,000 sheep it might be necessary to send similar letters to ten agents. It would be quite right if he did it. The one who sold the sheep would get commission, but the whole of the ten letters of authority would have to bear a stamp. The Treasurer must see that this will be bad business, and there is really no sense in it.

Mr. KERR: Hear, hear! That is what I say.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN : Order ! I must ask the hon. member for Enoggera to respect the Chair, and cease interjecting.

Mr. WARREN : This is an extraordinary position, and it is the people in the country particularly who are going to be hit. If I were in the city, I could ring up my agent and say, " I have so much to sell, and I will put it in your hands."

The HOME SECRETARY: Would not that be an evasion 1

Mr. WARREN: The Treasurer is bring­ing in a Bill which will cause evasions, and all the smartness of the blood-suckers will never stop this thing. It is all very well to say that the tax-gatherers will stop them, but we cannot make a thing like this water-tight, because it is most unreasonable. I ask the Treasurer to give this matter serious consideration, and give way on the point. He will be only doing what it right if he does.

Mr. SIZER (Sandgate) : I think the Trea­surer is unreasonable in regard to this amend­ment. We must realise that under the Auctioneers and Commission Agents Act we have made it compulsory for every trans­action to be in writing. If a man wants to dispose of his property, he probably avails himself of every avenue to do so and every letter of authority he writes must he stamped.

Mr. CLAYTON: Or use the telephone, in which case you will not stamp.

Mr. SIZER: I suppose, if a man does it through the telephone, it brings him under the Au?tioneers an?- Com'?ission Agents Act, otherw1se the auctiOneer m that case cannot sue for his commission. The small amount of revenue which is going to he derived under this provision is not worth the trouble it will create. The interpretation of the word " instrument " in this case is being stressed. If a person, on account of cir­cumstances which have arisen, wants to leave

Stamp Acts [20 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1251

the State and desires to sell his property, if he writes to half a dozen agents, he will have to stamp each letter. That is very unreasonable. I suggest that only the letter of authority to the agent who makes the sale should be taxable.

The TREASURER: If hon. members are going to stonewall in this way, I will withdraw the amendment.

Mr. SIZER: The amendment is all right up to a point.

The TREASURER : The amendment is only to provide for an adhesive stamp.

Mr. SIZER: What the hon. member for ;:-;undah suggests involves the whole question.

The TREASURER : His amendment is not before the Committee.

Mr. SIZER: I thought we were having a general argument at this stage. I will speak on the matter later.

Mr. ::-.fOTT (Stanley): I would like to ask the Treasurer a question with regard to the affixmg of these adhesive stamps. When a man in the country writes to an agent that he has a line of sheep or other produce for sale, one of the difficulties will be that he will not know what he is going to get for them, and how is he to decide what value of stamp to put on? . ~he TREASURER: Under the presertt law It IS 10s.

Mr. NOTT: I am not talking about the present law. I am talking about the pro­posed law. The Government are compelling people who write letters to agents to stamp them in proportion to the value. \Vhen a man lists ,a number of sheep for sale he does not know what he is going to get for them and I do not see how the clause will work: ~he agent to whom he sends the letter may list the. sheep with twenty or thirty other agents m _the West, and he may be in the same predicament as the owner. It is not a fa_ir thing, and I believe that some people will endeavour to evade the law by using the telephone.

Mr. G. P. BARNES (Warwick): A diffi­culty which will arise in this matter is this­iind I am guided by my own experience in connection with my grazing property. It is quite a usual thing to give your stock to th;o man and that man and the other man anu ask them all to list it for sale. If you have 100 bullocks for sale, you simply ask them all to list that number, and the one who intro­duces the buyer gets the commission. I sup­pose that in every instance where such instructions are given the value is an unknown quantity, and you might find yourself at the end with a lawsuit through having under­stated the value. Yoq might think it was £5 per head, and the bullocks might bring £6 or £7 or £8. On the other hand, if you have given an excessive estimate, will there be a refund? I am su~e that, if business men had drafted the Bill, we would never have had the complex thing we have to-.day.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN : Order ! Mr. G. P. BARNES: I am speaking of

this particular clause, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN : I would

point out to the hon. member that his main argument has been used by several speakers on my left already, and I ask him to use new arguments. So. far he has been guilty of tedious repetition.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: With all respect to you, Mr. Cooper, I do not think I have used the same language as any other hon. member.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order ! I ask the hon. member to resume his seat. I have full powers 11nder Standing Orders to do so.

Mr. G. P. BARNES : You .are dealing with me in a very arbitrary way.

Mr. DEACON (Cunningham): Here the Treasurer is proposing to impose a tax on attempts to do business. It would be dif­ferent if it were proposed to put taxation on the transaction itself.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN : Order !

Mr. DEACON: There is so much noise t.hat I cannot hear whether you are calling me to order or not, and I am sure you cannot hear me. We cannot hear one another.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. DEACON: Here is the position: Sup­

pose a man wants to raise money, and to do so it is imperative for him to try to sell his stock. It is not reasonable. You are placing a tax on attempts to do business.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order ! Mr. KING (Logan): Did I underst-and

the Treasurer to say by way of interjection that the Act at present provides for a stamp duty of 10s. ?

The TREASURER: Yes. Mr. KING: I disagree. It does not pro­

vide any such thing. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN : Order !

The question is not what the law is or what the law is not. I cannot prevent interjec­tions by the Treasurer, but I can stop an hon. gentleman pursuing a discussion. I ask the hon. member not to pursue that line of argument ..

Mr. KIKG : I am arguing on the construc­tion of the law.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: The amendment before the Committee is the only thing that can be discussed.

Mr. KING: And I understand that is the alt.eration of a certain duty from 10s. to 3d. GovERN~! ENT MEMBERS; No. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: It is

a question of the use of adhesive stamps. Mr. NOTT (Stanley): If a man. placed

a lino of sheep in the hands of six agents for sale and they were sold, could the unsuc­cessful agents claim •a refund on. those stamps?

The TREASURER: If you decide to stonewall, will not answer the question. Mr. NOTT: I want to know. Mr. KERR (Erwggera): The question is

whether it is desirable that stamps should be affixed.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns): I ask leave to withdraw my amend­ment.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Withdraw it. Mr. NoTT: Banish it from the precincts

of the House.

Mr. KERR: We are having most un­seemly conduct on the part of the Treasurer. He asks for the withdrawal of his amendment

Mr. Kerr.]

1252 Stamp Acts Amendment Bill. (ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

while it is under discussion. I have the floor at the present time.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member does not connect his remarks with the question, I shall ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. KERR: I ask the Treasurer not to go to the Chair and ask for the withdrawal of his amendment. vVe cannot do t.hat.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: You have no right to reflect on the Chair.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS : YOU obtained a concession, and now you go back on it.

Mr. KERR: No. The Treasurer indicated that he was going to withdraw his amend­ment, which shows childishness.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. KERR: I am sorry that t.hese things happen. In discussing these matters--

The TREASURER : We consider our own inter0sts?

Mr. KERR: The hon. gentleman does not know what he is talking about. He is inferring that we are guided by personal motives. His mind is so small that he cannot see beyond that.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. KERR: The Treasurer has indicated in no uncertain manner that he has not a grip of his Bill.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. member to resume his seat.

Mr. KERR: My remarks were prompted by interjections.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I have allowed t.he hon. member every latitude, but he has refused to accept the privilege.

Question-That the amendment (Mr. McCormack) be withdrawn-put; and the Committee divided:-

)lr. Barber , Bedford , Bertram

Bulcock Carter Collins Cooper, W. Dash Dunstan

, Farrell Ferricks Foley

, Gledson Hanson Hartley Hynes Jones

, Kirwan

AYEs, 35. Mr. I..~arcombe ,, Llewelyn

McCormack lllullan O'Keere

, Payne Pease Riordan Ryan, C. J. llyan, II. J. Smith Stopford Weir Wellington Wi!son Winstanley

, Wrigb.t

Tellers: Mr. Hanson and Mr. Riordan.

Mr. Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H.

Bell , Brand , Clayton , Costello

Deacon , Edwards , Kelso

Kerr , King ,, Logan

Nm;s, 23. Mr. Maxwell

.. Moore , Morgan

Nott Peterson

,, Roberts Russell, IT, M. Russell, W. A. Sizer Walker Warren

Tellers: Mr. G. I'. Barnes and Mr. Kerr.

[Mr.Kerr.

AYES.

Mr. i\lcLnchlan , Bruce

PAIRS. 1\0ES.

1\lr. Appel ,. Taylor

Resolved in the affirmat.ive. _'\.t 5.29 p.m.,

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Under the provisions of the Sessional Order agreed to by the House on 29th July last, I shall now leave the chair and make my report to the House.

The House resumed. The TEJ\IPORARY CHAIRMAN reported pro­

gress. ThP further consideration of t.he Bill in

Committee was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m.