Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 16 JULY 1914

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

:206 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Questi01UI.

THURSDAY, 15 JULY, 1914.

The SPEAKER (Bon. W. D. Armstrong, Lockyer) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PAPER.

The following paper, laid on the table, was ordered to be printed:-

Blue Book for the year 1913.

QUESTIONS.

USE OF LOAN MONEY.

Mr. BERTRAM (Maree) fisked the Trea­surer-

" 1. What sum of the money borrowed under the Government Loan Act of 1910 has been used for purposes other than those specified in the Act?

" 2. For what purpose has such money been used? "

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, Buljmba) replied-

" 1 and 2. The infor!lliLtion asked for is not available. Sums raised under the variDus Loan Acts are pa.id into the loan fund, and all loan expenditures, whether under a Loan Act or under the authority of Estimatffl submitted to P6rliament and an Approprifition Act only, 'are charged to this fund. The loan cash is replenished from time to time by the issuing of amounts authorised by "' Loan Act. There is always a considerable amount of expenditure in <l.nticipation of a Loan Bill being introduced, but all such expenditure is covered by Estimates­in-Chief or Supplementary Estimates and an Appropri<l.tion Act."

ADlHNISTRATION OF INTESTATE ESTATES.

Mr. HUNTER (Maranoa) asked the Sec­retary for Public Instruction, for the Attor­ney-General-

" 1. How many esootes were adminis­tered by the Curator of Intestacy 'and Insanity respectively, (a) intestacy, (b) insanity?

" 2. What was the total value of estates (a) and (b)?

"3. What was the toool cost of ad­ministration?

" 4. How much was retained by the department under the several headings for services rendered? "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION (Hon. J. W. Blair, Ipswich) replied-

" It will be better if the hon. member will kindly move for ,a return."

Mr. HUNTER: I give notice accordingly for a period covering five years.

STATE ELECTORAL ROLL.

Mr. HUNTER fiskc·d the Home Secre­tary-

" 1. Will he, in view of the 'disclosures made in one of the morning daily news­papers regarding the disparity between the State and Federal ro!Js, notwith-

Questions. [16 JuLY.] Mourilyan, etc., Tramways Bill. 207

standing the fact that the Federal rolls have just undergone a severe purging, ask the electora_l registrors throughout the State, (a) to report on the probable causes responsible for such disparity; (b) to make recommendations having for their object the compilation of a repre­sentative State roll within their respec­tive divisions?

" 2. Will he furnish a copy of such report and recommendation, when re­ceived, to this House 1 "

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. G . .Appel, Albert) replied-

" 1. The Commonwoolth Electoral Officer states tha_t the Commonwea_lth rolls have only been partially revised. The probable causes responsible for this disparity between the State •and Federal rolls are so well known that it is con­sidered that reports from the Electoral Registrar e,re unnecessary. Representa­tive State rolls will be compiled as soon as possible after the e,nnual revision.

"2. See answer No. 1."

ASSISTANCE TO POOR PRISONERS.

Mr. WINSTANLEY (Queenton) asked the Secretary fo>: Public Instruction, for the .Attorney-General-

" 1. What number of applications have been made for assistance under the Poor Prisoners' Defence Act since the Act came into operation?

" 2. How many of these applications were granted 1

" 3. What was the total cost 1 " 4. Will he consider the advisability of

increasing the usefulness of the Act by -extending its provisions as has recently been done in England 1

" 5. Will he provide free legal advioo to those too poor to pay for it, particu­larly in compensation cases?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION replied-

" In this matter also, it will be better for the han. member to move for a re­turn.''

Mr. WINSTANLEY: I give notice accord­ingly.

EXPENSES OF LOANS TO "LOCAL AUTHORITIES.

Mr. WINSTANLEY asked the Tr.easurer­" 1. What is the method .adopted in

fixing inspection fees for material pur­chased in Lcndon for local authorities?

" 2. Are all Government departments charged ir. tho same manner as local authorities?

" 3. Is it the practice of the Treasurer when granting loans to local authori­ties to debit them with flotation expenses?

"4. How long have these practices been in oper~ation ?"

The TREASURER replied-" 1. The rr.ethod adopted is to charge

a proportionate amount of the salary of the inspector during the time engaged upon the work, in addition to his actual travelling expense3.

"2. Yes. " 3. No; the only charge is the interest

at the rate of .£4 per cent. per annum. "4. No5. 1 and 2, eight years."

CASE OF GEORGE CAMPBELL THOMPSON.

Mr. THEODORE (Chillagoe) asked the Home Secret•ary-

" Will he lay on the table of this House all the papers r.elating to the com­mittal to, and detention in, Asylum for the Insane at Goodna, of George Camp­bell Thompson?"

The HOME SECRETARY replied-" Copies of pa_pers will be laid on the

table."

LADY INSPECTORS UNDER SHOPS AND FACTORIES AcT.

Mr. BOWMAN (Fortitude• Valley) asked the Secretary for Public W arks-

" 1. What are the qualifications of lady inspectors under the Shops and Factories Act?

" 2. Is there a time limit to lady in­spectors who are instructed to visit various centres outside Brisbane?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Han. W. H. Barnes, Bulimba) replied-

" 1. Common sense and general ability. "2. No.''

STATE EXPORT AGENCIES.

On the motion of Mr. HUNTER (Maranoa), it was formally resolved-

" That, in the opinion of this House, in order to assist the primary producer and promote agricultural and closer settlement generally, it is desirable tb,at immediate steps be taken to establish State ancl export agencies for the mar­keting of the primary products of the State."

ALIENS IN ATHERTON DISTRICT.

On the motion of Mr. GILLIES (Eaaham'J, it was formally resolved-

" That there be laid upon the table 'Jf the House a return showing-

1. The number of examination cer­tificates (Form ' B ') under the Leases to Aliens Act of 1912 issued since the passing of the Act in the petty ses­sions district of Atherton.

2! The number of certificates of ex­emption (Form 'D ') under the Leases to Aliens Act of 1912 issued since the passing of the Act in the petty ses­sions district of Atherton."

MOURILYAN AND GERALDTON TRAM· WAYS BILL.

INITIATION.

On the motion of the SECRETARY F JR RAILWAYS (Hon. W. T. Paget, Jfaakay), it was formally resolved-

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the \Vhole to consider of the desir ~blene,s of introducing a Bill to validate an ~grecn:-e~t entered into betw(Wn tho t_;omrnissioner £or Raihvays >and tne Mourilyan SJ·ndicate, Limited, for the acquirement by the said Commissioncl',

Han. W. T. Paget.]

208 District Courts Bill [ASSEMBLY.] Legislative Council.

on behalf of the Government, of .the Mourilyan Tramway with its. appurten­ances, and also to validate .an agreement entered into bc>tweon the Treasurer, the Commii-;ioner for Raih1 avs and the coun­cil of the ,.hire of J ohn~tone for the acquirement by the said con{missioner of the Geraldton Tranm ay with its ap­purteuances, and to .authorise the con­struction of a tranm av to connect the aforc"'1,;.id tranYV\'ays, alld for other con­sequential purposes."

RAIL \VA YR BILL.

IXITIATIOX.

On the mution of the SECRETARY FOR RAIL \Y.'i "\ ::<, it was formally resolved-

" That the House will, at its next sitting, re-olvo ihelf into a Committee of the \Yhole to consider of the dcsirablP­ness of introducing a Dili to consolidate and amend the laws with re•Dect to the construction, maintenance, rnanagcment, and v or king of the raih'"'ap of the StatP, and the appointment, promotion, discip­line, and regulation of tho railwaY ser­vice, and for other purposes connected therewith."

BOWEK HARBO'CR BOARD BILL. INITIATION.

On th<' motion of the TREAS'CRER, it was formally re0olved-

" That the House :viii, at its next sitting, resolve itself mto a Committee of the \Vhole to consider of the desirable. ness of introducing a Bill to define the limits of the harbour of Bowen and to constitute a harbour board for the ~aid harbour, and for other purpo'''S 1:elating thereto."

RAILLESS TRACTIO;'{ DILL.

INITIATION.

On the motion of th0 TREASURER, it was formally resolved-

'" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirable­nesd of introducing a Bill to >!uthori'e the provision and working upon roads of trolley vehicles moved by electrical power transmitted thereto from some external source, for the conveyance of passengers and other public traffic."

DISTRICT COURTS BILL.

INITIATION.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC INS'l'RUCTION (Han. J. W. Blair, Ipswich), it was formally resolved-

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the ·whole to consider of the desirableness of introducing a Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to District Courts."

[Han. W. T. Paget.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. PROPOSED ELECTION OF ME>lBERS.

Mr. MORGA:;\; (Murilla), in movir.g-" That, in the opinion of this House,

the Constitution Act of 1867 should be so amended as to provide for .an elective Legislative Uouncil of Queensland, in lieu of the provisions now provided in the said Act for the appoinLnent of mem­btn~,''

oaid : I move this motion with confidc•uce that, no mattH' which ,;rde of the l:ioth;e we occupy, "\V(~ will approach tho consideration of this far-rcacehing 1ueasure "\vith u sense of gtc;tt rbponsibility. Th' time has come, in tny opinion, \Yhen "\VC should giYe to the people a voice in the choice o: their repre­sentatives in the Lc>gislativo Councii, and I think that such a proposal should < ommend itself to everv member of this House. The question which we .,hould ask our•elves is­Are the peoph• of Queensland «<tpable of eleding members of the Legislative Council, or are they nOt? In m::. opinion, judging from the liberal educational policy that we have in Queensland-! think I am right when I say that practically 95 per cent. of the a•dult population of the State are capable of reading and writing-tho time has come· when tho very obsolete method now adopted for the appointtuent Df n1ernbers of our Upper Hou"8 should abolished, and w · in Queensland should phccd nn a similar foc.ting to that occupied by the great rnajorit.~o of the States of the Commonwealth of Australia. I do not think I am exaggent­ing the position Of affair-s l\h(_,n I 'jtate that th•·re is a wic'eswoacl feeling throughout tho State of Queensland that the present state of affairs ohould no lm gl'r e'<i .t. I enter on to this <liseu<swn in the full beliof that members of thio. l!o<Jse will giYe the mattPr their earnest ,·onsideration. (Hear, hear !) I do not intend in any wav to touch upon tho mPrits or demerits of the members who have been recently appointed to the Upper House, but I do say that, so far as the· interests of the primary producer in Queens­land arc concerned, 'th<' Fpper House, as no-w con"tituted, is not a. n~prcsentativt\ Chamber. (Hear. bear !) There is no doubt whatever about that. It is only necessary to go oYer tho list of gentlemen who occupy se·ats in that Chamber to discover that, so far as the primary producers are concerned, little or 1·0 repn";cntation exists thf're at the prc·oent moment. In my opinion no House of review is complete unless every industry in Queo,nsland is giv8n an opportunity of being represented. No .doubt the men who are in that Chamber are capable in man:v ways, but we had some •·xjwrience recently of two very importnnt measures which wm·e sent up from this House~. I refer to the Pure ::leeds Act and the Bill to Register Stock and Farm Produce Ag<ents. When those nwasures wer<e introduced int0 the Upper HousP, it was dis· coYered that there ·was not a man in that House capable of dealing with these two important questions from the farmers' stand· point. I find, on looking at the constitution of Queensland, this paragraph appears-

" For the purpose of composing the Legislative Council of Queensland, the Governor is hereby authorised to summon from time to time to the said Legis­lative Council such person or persons as he shall think fit, and every person who·

Legislative Council. (16 JULY.] Legislative Council. 209

shall be so summoned shall thereby be­come a member of the Legislative Council."

It is provided that a member of the Legis­lative Council must be of the full age of twenty-one years, a natural-born or natural­ised Sl;lbject of His :Majesty, and he shall hold Ins seat for the term of his natural life subject to the provisions contained in th~ Constitution Act for va.cating the same, and for altermg and amending the constitution. Now, we find that there is onlv one State in Austmlia where the "Cpper fiouse is simi­larly constituted to that of Queensland, and that is New South Walr~. At the present moment the appointments to that particular ChC~.mber rest,. I understand, almost solely and wholly w1th the Premier of the day. He pmctically has the appointment or the recommendation of the men who are to be appointed to the Council. and his recom­mendations are submitted· to the Governor. Generally speaking. I suppose, without excep­tion, those recommendations are always carried into effect. \Ve also find that there is no limit to the number of men who may con,titute the Upper House. The Premier of the day may pa's an important measure in the Lower House, and which he might wish to see carried into effect.· If the prc"ent Council rejects that measure. then there are two options open to the Premier. One par­ticularly objectionable option is that the Premier may stuff the Upper House with members for the purpose of carrvino- out his dc~ire, or the desire of his party: I~ 1908 a very important amendment was carriPd in the Constitution Act, so far as the Legisla­tive Council is concerned. There were two provisions ta.ken out of tlw Constitution Act of 1867 and repealed. The Amendment Act of 1908 repealed two provisos that provided that no Bill to alter the constibtion of the Legislative Council should be presented to the Governor unless the second and third ree>dings should have been passed with the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of the Council and of the Assembly, respec­tively, and that any such Bill should be reserved for the Roval assent. There was a further amendment,· which provided that if a Bill was passed by the Assembly and re­jected by the Council on two occasions, or amended in such a wav as to not meet with the concurrence of the Assembly, then a, referendum of the people would be taken on the question, and if a majority of the people dN~ided in favour of the Bill, then it would become law. There is a very important 'ec­tion in the Constitution Act of 1867, section 9. which gives powm· to altE'r the constitution of the Legislative Council, and re&ds as follows:·-

" Notwithstunding anything hereinbe­fore contained, the Legislature of the said colony, as constituted by this Act, shall have full power and authority from time to time by any Act or Acts to alter the provisions or laws for the time being in force under this Act or otherwise con­cerning the Legislative Council, and to provi·de for the nomination or election of •another Legislative Council to consist, respPdively, of such members to be appointed or elected, respectively, by such person or pernons and in such manner as by such Act or Acts shall be determined."

We find that section 9 makes provision for

1914-P

an elective Upper House, but, in order to bring about that change, there is no necessity for the joint sitting of the two Houses, and there is no necessity to get the Royal assent. Those are two very important omissions. In order to give members of this House an opportunity of comparing the system at present in vogue_ in Queensland with that of other States, I have gone to the trouble of preparing a short resume of the position as it exists in the other States. The first Legis· lative Council in Victoria was constitutod in 1851, and consisted of ten members nomi­nated by the Crown and twenty elected by the inhabitants. So that in Victoria, right from the jump, a certain number of members of the Upper House were elected by the people.

1\'Ir. COYNE: By a certain number of the people.

Mr. MORGAN: Right from the jump a certain number were elected by certain people. That was in 1851. Several altera­tions occurred until 1903. After federation it became evident that the representatives in the State Houses were exceRsive, and steps were taken to reform the Constitution. An Act was pas"\cd in 1903 reforming the Constitution, the members in the Legislative Council being reduced from forty-eight to thirty-five, including one special represen­tative of the public service. This represen­tative was subsequently abolished, leaving thirtv-four members to be elected by seven­teen· provinces.

The PREMIER: On what franchise do they elect them?

Mr. MORGAN: To qualify for member­ship the person must be a male and of the age of thirty years. He must possess free­hold of the annual value of £50. Members are elected for six vears, one-half retiring every three years. 'A person qualified to vote must be of the age of twenty-one years, an owner of freehold possessing the annual value of £10, or a leaseholder of property of the annual value of £15, or a person occupying a house or land with an annual value equal to £15. In Victoria they have

what may be called a property [4 p.m.] qualification, and they also have

what is to a certain extent an educational qualification. Graduates of a university, matriculated students of the L'niversity of Melbourne, barristers and solicitors, medical practitioners, ministers of religion, certificated schoolmasters, and naval and militarv officers are entitled to vote. All voters, 'exc<-pt those claiming in respect of property, must take out an elec­tor's right, so that as far as Victoria is con­oerned they have what may be termed two qualifications. After going over the different Constitutions, if I were asked to decide as to what form the franchise here should take, I would adopt Victoria in preference to any other that I know of in the Australian Str<tes. I wish to say that, as far as this measure is concerned, I am not in any way hide-bound. I have not made up my mind so far as the franchise is concerned, but I certainly think there should be some restric­tion.

Mr. RYAN: It may be a most important thing.

Mr. MORGAN: It may be a most impor­tant thing, and if I hear arguments adduced, after what will be said by the Premier, which will make it desirable to make this

Mr. Morgan.]

210 Legislative Council. [ASSEMBLY.] Legislatwe Council.

House an elective Chamber, I will be pre­pare-d to modify my ideas somewhat. But what I would like this Chamber to do is to carry a resolution affirming the principle that the time has now arrived when the Legislative Council should be made an elec­tive body, and not remain a nominee Cham­ber as at present.

Mr. RYAN: You will have to abolish this Chamber first.

::\d:r. MORGAN: There is no necessity to abolish this Chamber; it may be brought about without abolishing this Chambu. When I state that the Constitution of the Federal S€'nate is not at pr0;cent ·,ntis­factory, owing to the fact that it is ole, Ld on an adult suffrag-e. that is practically a reflex on the Lower Chamber. It wouid be the same in this ease if we adopted adult suffrage, and rather than do that it would be better to do away with the Upper Bouse altogether.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

M1·. MORGAX: I want to state here that I am not in favour o£ abolishing the Upper House altogPthPr. I think we c<hould have a Chamber of review. It is v~ry necessary in case of hasty legislation, and it is very necessary also to prevent legislation getting on the statutP-book that mav do more harm than good, and without full consideration; but I certainly think that the House should be as nearly ah possible the choice of tho people who have a stake in the welfare of Qupenshnd. In \Y pctcrn Austr,,dia we find that. dter thp ''':tablishment of rc,sponsible g-ovPrnm<?nt, thP members of the Legi,lative Council were in the iirst instance, nominated by the Governor. but it wa'' provided that in the Pvcnt of the population of the State rPaching 60.000 the Chamber should be elec­tive, In 1293 the much-desirPd change took place, and the Sinte was divided into ten (·lcctorates, each electorate returning three membPrs. In order to qu<1lify for a seat in tho Upper Hou',"• a p<>rson must be of the ag<' of thirty y<'ars and havP h'en a resident of \V Pstern Australia for at least two vears. lVI<'mbers are elected for the term of six years, and rPeeive a halary of ,,1_;200 per annum. \Yith rc,,·ard to tho qualifications of those entitled to vote, persons of the ago Df h' enty-one years and owning freehold valuE'd >et £100. and householdpr, renting houses, and loas<>ho!ders of property of the annual value of £25, are entitled to vote. ThPre ;, a difiorPnee here from what it is in Victoria. The freehold is to be valued at £100. and in Vi<'toria it has to be of the annual value or £10. South Au:otralia pos­'"''r,. an deetive Upper House, consisting of ei;:;htePn Ul•'mbm-.,. ele0ted for a period of six yrcars. To bPC•>me qualified for member­ship a P"l'''on mu:·t be of the age of thirty yPar,; and a residenl" for at lease three years. Electors muct b'l of the ag-o of twenty-one year:. ·.litd PO"- ·t-'"'.;; a property qualifi.c::.ttic~n of a frenhold P ,tate of the value of £50 or a J<.,.sc•hold of an ·"nnu ,l 'a.lue of £20 or be the ocPupiPr of a dwPlling-house of the annual value of £25. In Tasmania the LPgi,,lative Council <''.>mists of eig·hteen mem­bens. pJc.ctecd for a tC'rm of six vears. Tho State i·' rlisided into fifteen electorate-s, and members must be of the agP o£ thirtv vPars. Elrc;,tors' qualifications aro property arHi edu­cational. A person to be entitled to vote must be of the ag-e of twenty-one ve<.!rs a r< ,idcnt of the StatP for ''t lPa ,{ tw~lve months. and poserlssiHg freehold of the annual

fMr. ?Jforqan.

value of £10 or leasehold of the annual value of £30.' ME'dical practitioners, minis­ters of religion, offiPenc of His Majesty's land and sea forPe", or retired officers of the volunteer forc-e of 1'asmania arc entitled to vote. So that in Tasmania we find that they a! so have a property qualificatio?- as well as, to a c-ertain extent, an educ,'ttiOnal qualifintion. Nc,w we come to N_ew _Sout_h \Y alec;, where wo find the ConstitUtiOn IS

practicallv the same as that of Queensland, and, in iny opinion, Quc<:'nsland and Ne:"' South \\'ales :ctand alone so far as thmr L("n·i,"LttivC' CounC'ils are conc0.rned. In Nc'~V S• uth Wales the Legislative Council mu,t '"n'i't of at least twenty-one mem­bers, nominated by the Governor under the authoritv of the Crown. The members are appointed for life, and numbered, in 1'113, fifty-six mcmb~rs. No limit is placed upon tho number, and payment is not al­lowed. \Ve find that, as far as New South \Y ales is concerned, it is quite possible that the present Gos ernment could nominate as many member:, a., it wishes to place in that par­ticular Chamber to carry out its de~ires. \V e have onlv had to read the newspapers within rerent n;onths to find out that a great deal of rontPntion has talmn place in New South \Y alPs between the Speaker of the Legisla­tive .\s"'mblv ;cud the leader of the Govern­ment a" to the nomination of members to the Council l·hrre. I will now rder to New Zealand and aftE'r that I will give my rea"ons ~vh; I think we should follow in the footsteps of the majority of the States and han an dertive Upper Housl'. In NPw Zealand the Constitution provides that the * mPmbcr': of the Fnp0r Hou:'e must not con­,ist of less than ten. but it is otherwise un­limikd. p,,,vm<>nt at the rate of £200 per annu1n iR pi·ovided, and membcTS are ap­point<>d for the tPrm of \\even years. At the expiration of that period retirinrs members may br- rc .tppointed. The ag<' limit is fixed at twenty-one yPars. 11r. Massey, the Pre­nlier, who c:annot in any way be termed. so far ad XP\V Zealand is concernPd, as any­thing le-s than a Conservative, is at the pr0~cnt time le;tding a fight in favour of making that Hou;o an el0ctive body. Ho hn' alrec,clv introduced a Bill for that pur­po·,e. and 'when he went to tlw country at tlw laot p)cetion that was one of the principal planks in his platform, and he was n'turned bv the pcopln of New Zealand. Although it mav be caid that to a certain extent the Legislative Councils differ in many ways to that which is in operRtion here in Queens­land. be0aUF'' the membE'rS of the r jJ per House thPre arc nominated for a period of ten ve:crs and thcv mav be reappointed, yet the 'Prci;der of the d~y may not think it a<h-ic,,b]e to renominate those grmtlemen, and the re·ult will be that they v:ill va"ato their srats, and their positions will be filled by new mC'-rl.

Mr. RYAN: What v,ould you do with the present member:< of our Upper House?

Mr. MORGAN: I am not bound to any special form of franchise. My sole desire in moving- this resolution is to bring- about H n1orH sati.ofoctorv condition of affain1

, and to find out whether the country wiohcs the Couneil to remain as it is at the pre.,ent time or wheth,,,. it wi,hes to have an elee­tive 'Chamber. Liberals mav feel secure t0 a c0rtain extrnt at the present time in re­gard to that Chamber, bc\'11USe th€' Liberals occupy the Trc asury benches, and it is only through the Liberal leader that members

Legislat·ive Council. (16 JULY.] Legislati:ve Council. 211

<(Jan be nominated to the other House and I, fully expect to see the leader of the Opposi­tion niovc an amendment later ou havino­for it~ ,object the g:etting of an expressio~1 .of opmwn Iron~ thu; House with reference to the abolition of the Counc:J. \Ve know that the abolition of that Chamber is one of the planks in the Opposition platform,

OPPOSITION ::1-fE:llBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. MORGAN: Though I am not in favom· of abolishing the b<!Cond Chamber, I think that the time is ripe for the Liberals to do something to give them a certain amount of security so far as that Uhamber is concerned. (Opposition laughter.) I want to, point out. to the Premier exactly how tJ,e L1bcrals stand so far as that Chamber is concerned. Supposing the leader of the Opposition should be fortu.nate enough to '\Secure a majority and he takes the place now occupied by tho present Premier he could nominate sufficient men pledged to vote for the abolition of the Uouncil and wipe it out .of existence. •

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! )Ylr. RYA~: Is that why you are moving

:th1s resolutwn?

Mr. MORGA:\: That is not whv I am moving it, but I think it is my dutv to point out what may happen in the future. A .number of the present members of the Coun­cil may think their position is secure, and a ;number of members, on this side may also thmk that the Counc1l 1s secure; but they may find tht.t the Council is m the same }.osition as the Legislative Uouncil of N ~;w 8outh \Vales to-day----practically in tho hand­of a Labour UoYernmPnt; and I think the time i,; now ripP for an alteration to be made in the cDnstitution of tho Coun<.il which would give .<atisfaction to the Liberals throughout the State, and which would place the Council 01: a much sounder foundation tha.n it has at the present moment.

Mr. KIRWAN: You don't rr.cntion the people at all.

Mr. MORGA X: I think it is the duty of the Premier to bring about such an altera­-tion in the con"titution of the Council in the interests of t.he people of Queensland.

Mr. RnN: You mean in the intereste of -the Liberals.

Mr. :\10RGX:'<: I thmk it is in the in­terests of the people of Queensland that we should have an elective Council-an electiyc Chamber which will be as representative as possibl0. I do not think that tho preoJent ·Council is thoroughly r"'prese.ntativc, and I am perfectly confident t.hat, while tlw rec~nt appointments may have given a, certain ><.mount of satisfaction to c-ortain people, theY have not given general satisfaction to the people throughout Queensland. It is not mv in­tention to lahour this qw,tion at any length. I feel sure tho qur-.-tion will Lo diocue,ed fullv and froeh bv hon. members on both .sides, and that' some gc od will re,ult from the discus>-ion. It is a very important ques­tion, and one des0rvi.ng of every considera­tion from hon members. and one which the pPoplP of thC' 8tatc aro y~·atchillQ' ~?cry elo~·,,~,)-. There are SCY<)nb:'-h\o clcctvrah s in thf' ~:..ate. and, if Queensla;}d w >re divided into rc·~htcPn provinc.Ps, each returning- hvo members, it "ould gin' us a LPgi-latin- Conwil thirty­six mPmbClr,, That','\ nuld nwan, in 0ifP(;;. th:tt four electorates could combine and elect two members to the Council. One-half of tho membr·rs couid retire every three yeare, and

the total term for which members would be elected would be six years. In my opinion we would then have energetic men-rr.en with a stake in tho country, and men cap­able in evury way of representing the various interest" of the State, and men m­tuestcd in tho political questions of the day. l know the farmers would nominate men in the farming electorates to stand in their in­tcn•sts. At the pres.cnt moment they have "ot got that ovportunity. The small farmers are not ropreccnted at all in the Council at the present time. If we go over the list of members, we find that the squatt.er'" and the comrnercial cmnn1unity are \veil represented, and there is a gr,· tt number o( so!iciwrs and barristers. \\~h, there shou:d be ~o many members of tho legal profe,·sion in tho Council I fail to see. \V e also discover there is a great nu1nbcr of Inen who are in­terested in the principal Liberal new~papers, eith<•r a3 propiietors, directors, or managers. (Opposition laughter.) 'rhose men have been specially appoir,tBd, no doubt, but in many instancps th3y have not got the interests, gc,nprallv SP('aking. of the small men a.t !wart. "They have not got the interests of the dairv farmer or the small settler at heart, though they may bo greatly intmested ir. the squatter and in those who are con­m•cted with the large institutions and those who deal in""" large way. In my opinion, the small man is not rPpresented in that Cham­ber at all. I cf'rtainly think the time is ripe for an alteration being brought about, and I have Yc·ry much pleasure in moving the resolution.

Mr. S\VAYNE (Jfirani): I nse to second the resolution that has been moved by the hon. member for Murilla. I am one who believes in the existence of a seco.nd Chambc·r. I can call to mind occasions when Bills passed by this Chamber have been distinctly improved by amendment .. , which have been made in the other House, though, at the same time, I can also call to rr.ind occasions when. owing to the present system of nominee appointments- to that Chamber, I think th0 will of the people has been to a <'ertain extf'nt thwarted. Still, under our Constitution Act Amendment Act of 1908, in such an event as that, provi.~ion is made for an appeal to tho people. At the same time I do think that i.n these days of ropre­sPntativc gove-rnment it is an anomaly that >vc should havP an elective Chamber. I am not particularly concerned about the form of franchise for th.:' 0ouncil, but it goes without savino- that it should be different to the franeh~"" oro which the members of this Hon'e are elect.,d. Some means could be devised by which a proper <'heck could be providPd, and I think that no norr_inated ob­stacle should be placed in the way of the legi­tin:atc aspirations of tho people of the State. At the same time a fr:mchise could be deviF•'d which would arcomnli"h the de"ires of those who wish to see the Council mad'l eleC'liYe, and se-cure th., ekdion of member•· h,· people who are settled in the country . aicid have to stand by it through thick and thin. l haYC verv much pleasure in seconding- the motion ;vhich has boon ~o ably moved' by the hon. member fer Murill ,_

The PREMIER (Hon. D. F. D0nham. O:t1ep): The question raised by this motion is one of vorv coneider~ blo int·-rest. An Upper Chamb-er may be constituted on various bases. It mav be a nominee \!ham bor such as the C'om:icil is at nrcs<'nt.' wir11 the' m0mbers appointed for life, -or apnob+,cct for a limit0d period, as is the case ;n :'\ 0w

Hon. D. F. Dt"nhnm.]

212 Legislative Council. [ASSEMBLY.] Legislative Council.

Zealand, where the system has not yet heen changed, though the han. member for ::vJ:urill.a said the Premier of that country had inti: mated that he was in favour of a change in its constitution. The han. member des­ignated the proposal for an elective Upper House in ::'l:ew Zealand as a Conservative movement. Another principle is the olec·ti·1 e, such may be on a limited f1anchise or an adult franchise. The question is :.vhich, in the interest of the community, is the better mode of operating the bi-cameral system--the system under which members of the Upper House are appointed-nominee, and ap­pointed for life, or for a fixed period of six or nine years, or a system under which the members shall be elected on .a limittJd franchise or an adult franchise.

Mr. RYAN: Adult franchise, of course.

The PREMIER : It is now many years sinoo this question was before this Chamber. It is intere:>ting to notice that in the Go­vernor's Speech in 1890 mention was made of .a Bill to reform the Constitution by pro­viding for an elective Legislative Council, and of a Bill to make provision for dividing the colony into districts for financial pur­poses, similar proposals are on the businPss paper to-day. On that occasion Sir Samuel Walker Griffith, speaking as the leader of the Opposition, said-

" First is the Bill to reform the Con­stitution by providing for an elective Legislative Council. \Vhether that is a good Bill or not depends entirely on what is in it. If the propo·,al is to estab­lish an elective Legislative Council with a property franchise or qualification, it shall receive my hParty opposition. At any rate, it is better to

'Bear those ills we have, Than fly to others that we know not of.'

And a fixed tenure with a property qualification would be .a great deal wor"e than any ill3 we suffer now from the LegislatiYc Council. I can absure the GoYernment that they are not likely to carry reform of tho Constitution in that way."

Twenty-four years haYe passed and a motion for the reform of the Council is again sub­mittBd to this Chamber. Our Constitution provide, for a bi-cameral system, one Cham­ber of which is composed of members elected by th0 people and the other Chamber of nominee members. If members of the two Chambers were elected on an equal fr-anch.ise, both Chambers would assert that they were equally reprcsentatiYe of the people. \Vhat is representatiYe government? It is goYern­ment by the people through their duly elcd~d delcgat""· The han. gentlemen of the Legis­lative Council do not regard themselves as dulv elected by the people. I have no doubt .at all that the system provided in our Con­stitution is conduci,-e to the best interest of the community. I am speaking not as leader of the Goyernmcnt. My view is distinctly that I would rather have no second Chamber than an Upper Chamber elected on a re­stricted or unlimited franchise. With such a Chamber we .should be liable to a repetition of the present Federal struggle.

Mr. HUNTJl:R: We should have a double disoolution.

The PREMIER: We have quite enough dissolutions, and if this motion is carried it will involve another set of elections. I am

[Han. D. F. Denham.

sure our people are beginning to think that: they are too frequently troubled in the· matter of elections. By the way, I thin)r it is .about time to obviate frequent election& by extending the period of the term of service of members in this Chamber. The latest work on ''Responsible Government in the Dominions" is that by Arthur Berriedale Keith a distinguished officer of the Colonial Office: and a recognised authority on con­stitutional matters, and before I resume my seat I shall quote from that work to show that electiYe "Cpper Houses .are rcall:y a greater bar to progress than are nommee t:ppcr Hou'•es.

Mr. RYAN: They may be improved.

The PREMIER : The han. member desires­to secure some form of improYement.

Mr. RYAN: I consider election by thP people would be an improvement on your no ruinations.

The PREMIER : I did not consult any g~ntlema>r when recommending appointments to the Legislative Council, but quite a large number of gentlemen consulted me. (Laugh­tQr.)

Mr. MoRGAN: I was not amongst that num­ber. I have no axe to grind.

The PRE:VIIER: i'!o, and the han. mem· bcr for ;\luril!a did not consult me in the n1atter. There were, howP\.,.or, quito a num­ber of gentlemen who were desirous of that. preferment. Among the appointees-it would be invidious to mention names-are at least four gentlemen who are elosely a'·sociated with primary industries. My dee,iro was to secure gentlemen repre>'entati ve '?£ the Bris­bane district, thl' :Vlorcton chstnct, tllP Dovms, \Vide Bay, the Central district, and the North, and I can a'sure han. members that I did not please my friends. (Laughter.) As far as the Premier is concerned, I can >av--and I clare sa v succeeding Premier>' will fe~l the same-he 'would be very glad to be rid of anything in the way of patronage. I should not haYe the black looks I receive now if I had been relieved of tho duty of making recomm~ndations. However, there is something vastly more important than my own peroon.al feeling, and I shall not hesitate to discharge my duty: if there be vacancicc; in the Council I shall do mv best to secure representatiYe men who I think will be a credit to the Council. In thes<• democLtic days I cannot conceive of any franchise for the Plection of members of the "Cpper House except a franchi'e on an adult basi._, but I say at once that rather than have an elective "Gpper House I would do without a second Chamber. I say-and before I resume my seat I hone to be able to elaborate the argu-

. ment-that an elective second [4.30 p.m.] Chamber would not be as con-

ducive to the best interE>sts of the country as the present system, because the~· would claim that they are repr<>sentatives of the people just as much as members of this Chamber, whereas now they cannot put in that claim. I think I shall be able to show that the Upper House here has not blocked measures in the same way that they have in Chambers that are elected, nor has this Chamber stood in the way of the people's desires for any considerable length of time. I think I am right in saying that if a mc,asure had been rei ected one ses~ion and there has been an el~ction before the next session, the Council have unhecitatingl:v passed the measure. It is quite true that

Legislative Council. [16 JULY.] LPgislatil>e Council. 213

the "Gpper House declined to pa"> the Liquor Bill, but before the next session came rmmd there had been an c•lection.

Mr. GILDAY: You had to modify it a lot. The PREMIER : It was the same Bill in

prindple-quite the same with just some ·details altered. That is all.

Mr. HrNTER: They now claim the right to initiate legislation.'

The PREMIER : If an elective Chamber, why should thPy not'? And, indeed, undE'r our new Standing OrdE'rs, the Council can initiate certain legislation which they could not before we amended the Standing Orders, and there is a great advantag<> m thus expediting business.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: Then we are the revisory •Chamber in that case.

The PRE.;\IIER: In 'uch case:;, ye~. "Gndlr such circ•umstances in thi, House we are called upon to deal ith important issups-qnestions that were not contemplated at the time of election. 1"nder such con­ditions, ie it not a dc·sirable thing that there should be u House of reviPw, and a review by men who are tiwre not by the good

.,.JTUC'C•'" of the ol0rtor~; mr'n \vho are inde­pendent of the elective body? Is it not con­ceivable that men thus situat<>d mav, with­out fear, hold up some legisL,tion 1mcil at lea•>t the p<>ople shall have been able to pronounce upon it. and thus, if ~-ou like the ·exprco'sion, they may safeguard public in­terests. Thev have no fear of the p]ertors bE'fore their" ey<-'l, and thu·,, from their standpoint at le:cst, ensure that nothing shall :be pla('cd upon the statute-book which may mePt with the disapproval of the people until, at least, the people themseiH•', ha1e had an opportunity of voting on it. \Viii an eledive Lpper House s0~.:m·o this class of revision'? I doubt it. Therdore if the bi­ranwral syst<>m i, to continue, thcn I prefer ,a non1inrt' Cha1nber.

Mr. THEODORE: A House of fat landlords,

'The PRE::\liER : I think that is a very un­fair and ungrac.ious r<'mark to make. I think everyone knows that lc,gislation put through this Chamber has been d0alt with intelligently and honourably by members of another Chamber, and hon. member' of the Council have quite as kindlv an int0rest as the han. mPmlwr who interjects. I do not think the country would approve an amend­ment of the Con·titution that would provide for an deceive LppPr Hou·u unless it were on the adult franchise.

Mr. Rnl': \Yhat amc>ndment of the Con­stitution ar' you suggesting.

Th0 PREMIER : I am not proposing to indicatP th · nature\ of the amendments which will be brou['ht on as mentioned in the Go­wrnor's Spe,•ch in tho Constitution Act AmendnlE'nt Act. \Yhcn the proper time ·com<·., I shell be r''ally happy to enlighten the hon. membE'r. This motion is opportune, becaue<> we shall probably h"vo the advan­tage of the opinions of various members on both sicl~s pf th<' Home as to what is, in their estimation, the better method-appoint­ment or election? If an elective Chamber, it should be on the adult franchise. But I prefer abolition rather than an elective Chamber. It is perfectly true that the pre­sent members of the Upper House have not been elected by the people ; but in some sense, being Government nominees, it may be said they reflect public opinion at the ,time of appointment. Government• come

and Governments go; a day may come when the members in the other Chamber may not be said to reflect the opinion of the people, because a Government other than Liberal may occupy these benches.

::VIr. 1\IcCoR"JACK: 'rhey are unnecessary if they do that.

The PREMIER : That is so. I say they are unnci•'·,gary if they arP morel;~ duly cloct('d r<>prescntatives of the people on the same franchise as "e are. As it is, they have 110 yoter,.; to eonciliato, neither is any han. g•.'ntleman bound to support Govcrn:nent measur<"'· Thev are perfect! y free and mde­pendent to take wha.tever course they !ike, and thev have done It and have voted 111 a certain 'wav when I wi.,h thev voted other­wi'•'. At least, it will be allc;wed that they are qualified for the position which the:y: are calkd upon to fill-that of an advisory Chamber or a check, as it is som0times call<'d, u))on h'Ftv legislation. The L:pper House cannot defeat the popular House; they can delay ]('gislation. ::'\o matter ho;v they dislike a measure that ~ames from tlus Chilmber, under cf-:rtain conditions it can go O\'l•r their h<'ads to the people, and the ansv, er will be with the people. The nominee system is nut a P'crfcct syste111. but pro):lably it is bPttcr than any other system apphC'able to a .,,•cond Chamber in a State such as Qucen,·land. In appointn~ent.s :wt:. tr~ve ex­prcs .... ion to th;:. ,~'CO~{raphi::,d hm1tat1on~ of the State; v~C' gi,"e e-qn·c~..:lon to the various inb'rcst•,--to the Libu·al profe'Sion, and .also to the unn)prcspnted n1inoritie~; and. I would like to a><k hon. members to k<'ep m rnind that our C'ivili:~ation depends as wueh upon shbility as on progress .. I tBkc pro­OTC''i to be our ideal here, wlule the \vatch· ~-ord of tlw othPr Chamber may bt; .;aid to be that of sb•.bilitv. LE't me rE'mmd han. m<>mbers that h-d;v _.\ustnlia is dicturbed by an unlooked-for ciissolution. \Yhy?

::\Ir. THEODORE: Because of t)w unrN>'iOH· nbk·n''·'~ ,:f th\l Libn•al party.

The PRE::\HER: Both Chambers are elected on an adult franchise. The Senate, in fact. has taken up the attitude every­,,,·here taken up by E'lecti,e ·cpper Houses. Thev contend that thev arc just as repre· sentativE' of thF people" as the other House, and that ~hoy are Pntitled t? in~ist a> f1;1Jy upon the C'arrying out o£ therr \Vbhe;s. ~Jl~)y say, "\Yo are not bound to accept tne legis­lation of the lower House, no mattur how gr<'at may be the volumo of public opinion behind it ; we are equally reprc ;entativ<:; as thev." Th<·re is no instance of the nommee Ho~1se rejecting any mf'asure which the people demanded. I think I can Fafcly >t,cy that a nomine<> House, from a reformer's stand· point. is preferable to an elective Upper Hou,,e.

Mr. RYAN: An elective Upper House on a restricted franchise.

Th<> PRK.\IIEH :. On anv franchise, I think Lord Bryce speaks, of elect!ve ,';pper Houses as '' fortresses of Conservatism.

Mr. RYAN: So they are, but thttt is because the fr anchi,,e has been restricted.

The PREMIER: And I may quote him in reference to the experience in America. He savs-

. " In a contest, the Senate usually, though not invariably, gets the better of the Hous@."

In our experience, with a nominee House,

Hon. D. F. Denham.]

214 Legislative Council. [ASSEMBLY.] Legis~ative Council.

there is not a case where the opinion of the Upper Honse has prevailed over the opinion of the Lower House when the Lower House has insisted on its will being put into opera· tion. It is the same in New Souiih Wales, which has a nominee House; but it is not so in \-ictoria, whi<:h has an elective Upper House; it is not so in Tasmania, which has an elective Chamber; it is not so in \Vestern Australia, which has an elective Chamber; or in South Australia, which also has an elective Chamber. All the Chambers that are elected-elected on <1 restricted franchise -ha\e been mor€ obstructive in .the matter of pa:.sing legislation than the Chambers in New South \Vales and Queensland, which are no1ninee.

:Mr. MoRGAX: The people can de<1l with them afterwards.

The PREMIER : I am only speaking of facts. It is something if we ha Ye experience to :~o ur;on, and l propos(•, before I resume my s .. at, to show UIHJUPstionablv that electin1 Upper Houses-and all Austr'alian €lective Upper Houses are on a restrict<'cl franchise­have been more obst.:-uctive to the will of the people than nominee Upper Houses. If our bi-cameral system is to continue, then the pre:;ent system, which has worked so well, should not be superseded when we have before us the example of places where, under the bi-cameral sy~tcm, the Upper House being elective, there haYe been difficulties.

Mr. MoRGAN: Have J ou any instances where a countrv which had an elediYe Chamber went bO:ck to a nominee Chamber?

The PHEMIER: Yes; I have the very thing for the han. member. On page 622 of "Responsible Governmc•nt in th(' Dominions," volume 2, the author, Mr. Keith, says-

" The Parliament of Canada had, after a long trial of an elective Upper Houoe, from 1856 to 1867, rNurned to the system of nmnination, "\vhich 1.vas a success in New Zealand, New South ·wale,, and Queensland.''

Mr. HAMILTON: They are going to make a cl?ange.

The PREMIER: I exp€ct that if they do make a change it will be one of oblit€r<ltion.

Mr. Hm'fTER: That is the right change, too.

The PREMIER : I co not think so. And all members on this side are perfectly free to exercise their own judgments on this matter.

Mr. RYAN: You do not regard this as a want of confidence motion? (Laughter.)

The PREMIER : I do not. It is not moYNl in that light at all. It is moved with th~~ iclf_~u. of eliciting opinions of han. n1cmbcrs, and it may be serviceable when we come finally to prepare the Bill which is indicated in the Governor's Speech. To get back to the point, our first Governor was Sir George Bowen, and he was for those days a great Radical, and if living to-day would be regarded as a Radical. After serving here he went to Victoria, and whilst there he had ample experience of the evil influences of an elective Upper House, and he made a report to the Secretarv of State for the Colonies that, in hi" opi;;ion, the second Chamber in th0 Australian coloniee should be ereat('d bv means of nomination rather than by election. My quotation is from "Parliamentary Papers," chapter 2217, page 55, ali given at

[Han. D. F. Denham.

page 620 m the volume I have alreadv men­tioned, and he charges the elective "Upper House with-

" having thrown out in twenty-two years· more than eighty Bills, and of amending more than twenty others so that the As9embly preferred to drop them. It maintained State aid to religion for fifteen years in opposition to the ex· pre"ed will of the country.; it muti!a~e-d: till they were useless s1x B1lls for mmmg on private property; it seven times threw out pavment of members; it rejected an Electo;al Bill and a Tariff Bill passed by a large majority; it rejected four Appropriation Bills and a Temporary Supply Bill; it threw out a Bill. to p_ro­vide for the defence when mvas!On seemecl imminent; it rejected a Bill for an international exhibition on the plea that a protectionist colony had nothing to exhibit. Land Acts had been amended so as to favour the capitalist class. T~e last Land Act of 1878 had reduced to SIX

from twenty years the period within which the original e.electors of Crown land could alienate the land so selected."

He expressed his opini~n that t)le second Chamber in the Australlan colomes should b0 created b·; nomination rather than \ ., 0lection. No:.V, that is the record in Sir George Bowen's time. Later on, under Graham Berrv-and I thinl, it will lw allowed that he was one of the most advanced thinkNs in Victoria-he tried his utmost to secure a nominee Chamber in place of an­elective Chamber, but h€ failed to g~t the statutory majority, and there fore h1s w1l1 w~& not put into effect. The U]lper. House m Victoria still l'ommancls the s1tuahon. Only five vcars "''O thcv rejedP<l a Janel tax. They Jefp[,te·d the Licensing BilL

Mr. :\[OP.GA:-i: That is wh'\· the farmC'rs like• them. (Laughter.)

Th" PREMIER : And thev refused sanc­tion for selling coal from Government mines.

Mr. RYA;>!: You say they rejocted a land tax?

The PREMIER: Yes; five years ago. Mr. RYAN: And do you think that was a;

bad thing? (Laughter.)

The PREMIER: I am pointing out just what an elective House dors as contrasted with a nominee Chamber. 'rhat is th€ record in Victoria right from the time of Sir Georrre Bowen till five years ago. An elec­tiYe Upper House-one series of what? Of holding up reforms. Now, in South Aus·. tralia-becaus" the han. member has quoted the various States, and I will follow him--of South Australia, I will quote the present Premier, "'-ho says-

" Tho people of New South Wales, New Zealand, and Queensland, with their nominee Councils, have much more political fre0dom than that enjoyed by the people in this State."

\Ye cannot shut our P:_vcs to experience. HNe is Victoria with an elective Uppe1r House proved from unquestionable documents to have been obstructive of progresill. Of South Australia, the Premier put it quite succinctlv when he said that the nominee Councils· of the thr<>e States he mentioned were more in the interests of th€ public than an elective Upper House. And a; I believe-

Legislative Council. (16 JULY.] Legislative Council. 215

in progress and reform, I cannot support the hon. member in his contention. Again, he quoted Tasmania. Now, what has "Kc>ith" to &ay on this? He say:<, at page 630 of the sarne volun1e-

,, As mgards matters of ordinary legis­lation, thanks to th<e activities of th~ Upper House, Tasmania is by far the most backward State of .Australia in respect of legislation for social nee-ds. Every year Bill after Bill, if deeme•d too advanced, is rejected by the Upper House. Workmen's Compensation Acts are not appreciated, and tlw tltatt> h<Jd also until 1910 the <iistinction of having no system of wagP' boards or other means of controlling industrial conditions.

" In 1910 it rejected proposals for a hnd tax, for land purchase, for ho.opitals, and for factory regulations.

"In 1910 it threw o{,t a Bill for closer settlement, d_,.,,pite the feeling through­out Australia that such settlement is urgently needed."

Plea'e note that the Tasmanian Council is an elected House. I say that if wo are to have a bi-cameral system, it should be on the lines that exist in Queensland. ~ow, we will come to the last State mentioned by tho hon. member, namely that of Western Australia. Western Australia has been referred to as having abandoned the nominee sysrem after giving it a trial. At one time they had a nominee Upper House, but recently it be­came an elective L:pper House. That Upper House is showing the same tendency that other elective L:pper Houses show. They say to the Ac~embly, "'.Ve are as much re­presentative o£ the people as you are. You have not superior rights to us. We have got our mandate from the people, and we shall a.,sert ourselve" as much as you." " Keith " records with regard to the Western Australian 'Upper House, that it has thrown out a Land and Income Tax Bill. When Western Austialia substituted the elective for the nominee sy,tem they could not help themselves, because the Act establishing re­gponsible government provides that the nom­inee Chamber shall last for ,ix years, or until the popvlation became 60,000, and as soon as the popuiation became 60,000 they got an elective Upper House. When the Kew South \Vales constitution was being established they discussed the Upper House first as to whether it should be an elective Chamber. vVenl worth held-and events justi­fied his view-that a nominee Upper House would be more flexible, and more expansive, whiloit an elective Upr1er House would control the Lower House and trample on the rights of the people. Now, we want, if we can, to have harmony between the two Chambers in the fullest degree possible, and for harmony and good work, and effective work, the nominee Chamber is the best. I am not wedded to the present method of appointing members for life, because I am well aware that there are some hon. gentlemen in the Upper Chamber of whom, physically, it may ce said, that they are past their prime at least. (Opposition laughter.) Yet they do not appear to be ready to resign their seats. It probably is quite right that there should be some limitation placed upon them. Even there there are objections, because we know perfectly well that when the time for a mem­ber to retire was ·drawing nigh, it is quite possible he would be playing up to the Government in order to get re-elected. I wani;

to know if members of this Chamber are so thirsting for elections and turmoil that they are prepared to start an elective Uppe_r House. If it is done, we should make provi­sion for a double dissolution, because it appears to me that that is the only ·~ffective rerr..edy.

Mr. KIRWAN: We will have annual elee­tJOns then.

'I'he PREMIER: I think that umder those conditions it would not be long before the people, rather than have this perpetual con­fusion and strife, would say, "LC't us h11ve a nominee Upper Chamber again."

Mr. MoRGAN: They don't have annual elections in the other States.

The PREMIER: No. I am asking hon. members to look at other States and see what their exrerience has been of elective Upper Houses.

Mr. RYAN: Would you votB for the aboli­tion of the Upper House?

'I'he PREMIER: No. I believe in an Upper House. I say that candidly, and l say that it should be a nomineo Chamber.

Mr. THEODORE: It is a hindrance to democ­racy.

The PREMIER : It has protected democ­racy in the paot. Surely the hon. gentleman will have seen in the other States where thev have elective Upper Houses that there has· been a greater hindrance to progress and progr~ssiv<' measures than in this State. Finally, I will quote ?\ew Z('aland. It is also iuter0sting to notice t_hat at the prespnt time :\lr. :\laswy, ~n Jus propagandrt for .the comin~ election Ill ~ew Zealand has an eledivo Cpper House pro­po•,"bl. ~\<t 'pros<'nt mc~mb<'rs c:f the. Kcw Zealand Legislative Council are nommated, and hold their seats for seven years. The hon. member for Murilla, speaking of Mr. Ma'•\sev, said he is a Conservative. He advo­cates 'an elective House, and, as the hon. member for Jliiurilla does the same, he on t.his question has conservative tendencies. "Keith," referring to the Upper House of Kew Zealand, says-

" It is recognised that the Council is unable to resist the Lower House, and all the important and most democr.atic social legislation of New Zealand smee 1900 has i:>een passed without scrio_us diffi­culties from the Upper I-Iou&e, whwh has. however, served the useful purpose of amending those measures in detail. In fact, the Upper House of New Zealand appear" now to scrv<' adequately th<' useful purposes of an ·cppcr Hom''·

" There \has, naturally, been . :·arion,; di&eussions as to thc po•,,Ifnhty of strengthening the Upper House, and sc·veral members of Parliament have time after time introduced motions in favour of making it elective. There is not, however, a-J far as can be seen, any real desire on the part of the people and the CDuntry that this step should be taken, and there are obviously strong objec­tions to complicating the machmery 9f l·egislation at any rate in a democratic country, ~nd especially in a Do!flinion which has as yet no serious questwm; of external affairs to trouble it."

1 must repeat the latter part for the benefit of the hon. member for Chillagoe, because I

Han. D. F. Denham.]

216 Legislative Council. [ASSE1\1BL Y.] Legislative Council.

am. quoting from one of the greatest Consti­tutiOnal authorities of the day, in his issue ot 1912-

" There are obviously· stro.ng objections to _complicating the machinery of legis­latiOn, at any rate in a democratic coun­try, and e~pccially in a Dominion which has as yet no serious que,tions of external affairs to trouble it."

l'\uw, this is a question which hen. members may deal with just as they think fit. Prob­ably we could not spend Thursday after.noons to better advantage, for a while than hy getting an exposition of the ~;itu~tion from d1fferent members' point of view. I sa,y fear­less]s and openly that I believe in a nominee Chamber. If the "Cpper House were made elPctiv<>, tlwn it should bG on an adult fran­chise. I com:ider an anachronism an elec­tive Chamber, and rather than have an elective Gpper .House I would have one Chamber and one Ch.uubcc only.

Mr. LARCO:\IBE (Keppel): The hon mem­ber for J'vlurilla, in his motion, was very careful,. m the first place, not to indicate the ba,ls of the franchise to the Legislative Council, if it were made electh·e. Later on in repl.):ing to an intcrj ection from this side; he mdwated that the franchi .• e probably would be on the same basis as it is in the other StatB of Australia where the Council i~ made e~cctive, that is .a propPrty qualifica­twn, or, Ill the words of the hon. member for Murilla, based on tho franchise of thosP who have a stake in the country. Instead of the hon. member's motion indicaiino- a rP­forJn, it is really reactionary.. bec~use it tendo to perpetuate the Leo-islativc Council in this St.ate. Am· lllE'a,mre~ which has that

effect will b,,, to my mind, r<'ac­[5 p.m.] tionary in the extreme bectcuse

the history of other cou'ntries in­dicates that the abolition of the s·ccond Chamber is in harmonv ,,-ith most modern ideas of government. The hon. member for Murilla has not given us anv definite basis for the franchise that he pr.oposcs, and in regard to which he was evidcntlv under the impre-;sion before he committed himself that he would catch members on this side.

Mr. MORGAN: Not at all.

Mr. LARCO:'IIBE.: By inference, he tried to lead us to behove ihat the franchise would be on the same basis as the election of mem­b<·rs of the A"embly.

Mr. MORGAN: Oh, no! That is not right.

~ir. LARCOMBE: I am satisfied that if th1s amendment was carried .and a Bill intro­duced _on the lines that are' running through the mmd _of the hon. member for ::\1urilla, t.h~ franch1so would be just as reactionary in th1s State. as it is in Victoria and elsewhere. To my ~md, !h" true solution, and the true reform, m th1s matter is the abolition o£ the Legislative Counce!. I quite .agree with many of ~he remarks that have fallen from ~he Promu~r.. Although he does not b<'licvc m the aboht10n of the Legislative Council, he offered very good r0asons why the House should not be made elective, and I would far rather take the chance of the abolition. in the. near. future than vote for an amendment whwh _w!ll have ~he effect of probably per­petuatmg the ex1stence of the Legislative Council in this State.

Mr .. M<_JRGAN: Exactly. 'Cnder the present ConstitutiOn vou can wipe out the Legislative Council. •

r • liion. D. F. Denham.

Mr. LARCOMBE: That is the fear of the hon. member for Murilla. He is afraid of the operation of the Parliament Act and the abolition of the Legislative Council.

Mr. MoRGAN: Hear, hear!

Mr. LARCOMBE: The hon. member says "Hear, hear!'' That is an indication of hi" sincerity in regard to the motion which he has brouo-ht before the House this afternoon. If he wa~ satisfied as to the security of the present nominated Chamber, then he would han' verv little compunction in allowing it to remain there on the presnnt basis. It is really not reform that he wants. but per­petuation. The Premier has statc·d that the present Council was frep a,nd independent. One cnn hardlv take that argument seriously. \\'e know that the Legislative Council is a party House, and a bitterly party Chamber at that.

Mr. )110RG,\~: And always will be under a no1ninee system.

Mr. LARCOMBE : A.nd that is one of the strong·e;~t arguments in favour of its ab~li­tion. I would like to ask when the Prem1er appointed a Labour man to the Legislative Council of Que<'nsland '!

:Mr. RYAK: He can't remember.

1\lr. LARCO?.IBE: He can't remember; he has a v0rv short memorv on that point. 'rho fact is that there has be<:>n no Labour m<>mbcr appointed by tho present Government, and that is most unfair, and out of harmony with the theory of Government in Queenslaild to-dav. \Ye C:ame bark from the country with ·vote' totalling about 10,000 or 11,000 lep,; than hon. members on the opposite side, and why should we not have represen­tation in ihe L1·~islative Council'? \Vhy should the Legislative Council be composed entirelv of members who represent the views of hon~ members opposite? That cannot be justified, and it shows that the present Chamber is not free and independent, as the Premier said, but a party Chamber of the worst nature. The Premier also said that the prcoent system is one of protective de­mocracy. (Opposition laughter.) He haC\ given a new application to the "new protection" phrase. Tho words " protective democracy " are really contradictor~·, hecauRe the f'·cist­ence of a Chamber such as r:e havP 1o-day in QucPnsland is really contrary to the true definition of democracy as laid down by John Stuart Mill and other political econo­mists. 'l'hc> Premie1· also chal!Pngcd hon. members on this side to name any nominee Chamber that had rejected legislation that was passed by the people's rcpres0ntatives. Did not the Legislative Council of Queens­land do that last year? Did they not reject the Stock and Produce Bill that had been passed by the people's representatives in this Chamber; and did not the LPgislative Council in New South Wales-another nominee Chamber-last vcar throw out Bill after Bill, and was se,·erely criticised by even the anti-Labour press of this State for doing so ? So that one of the arguments that has been used bv the Premier in favour of the continuance of the present Chamber is really dissipated by a reference to the legislative work that was done in QuPens­land and l'\ew South Wales last year. I think that the true method of dealing with this problem is, as I have indicated pre­viously, by the abolition of the Legislative Council. I therefore move the deletion of all words after "provide for " with the view

Legislative Council. (16 JULY] Legislative Council. 217

.of inserting " the abolition of the Legislative (\Juncil ol (~ueensland." 1 would like to briefly give one or two reasons for tho amendment. In the first place, the extst­ence of th<> Legislative Council is oppo:<ed to the spirit of democracy, and opposed to the true theorv of qoYernmPnt. \Y e give the p<>oplo of this State adult sufhagC'. ·we give them the right of rcturnmg. re­prc .. entatives to this Chamber, ostenstbly lor tho purpose of mouldmg· l;gtslatwn :mel directin" the destinv of tht.. State, Hnd' while so' doing, w<> ,;t the .... amP tim<' appoint a Chamber which has the power to veto the legislation passed by th<' peopk's representatives. Could anything be more anomalous or more contradictory? If we are going to be governed by bureaucracy, or _by other form of govE·rnment, then tho eXIst­t•nco of this Council would be pt·rfcdly JUsti­fiable from that standpoint ; but, governed as we are by adult franchise and a demo­Cl'atic form of government, the existence of the Council cannot be j uHLifleJ. There i> a further infringement of the principle of democratic government in the appointm<mts to the Le,.islati vo Council. Half of the ctppointeos ~re men who hav<l been rejected bv tho electors of Queensland. If the> electors d: sired these gentlemen to mould the legis­lation of this State, they would have r,·turned them when they had the opportunity, and when thev did not that was an indication that thcv "did not d<lsire them to in any way review "or remould legi9lation whic·h wa, passed by those who defeated the Co~mcil nominees. If those ge>ntlomen are appomtoJ in this way to review and veto legislation passed by the people's represcntati':es,. th~n I Ray that our syetcm of govornment IS ''imply farcical. I have no dc;,ire to personally reflect on members of tlw other place; some ·of them have intelligence and ability, and some have done good service for the State, but that is not the point at issue. I con­tend that, irrespective of their ability or t!'eir services to thB country, they have no rtght to be appointed to the Legislative Council, after they have been turned down by the ·electors of this State. Th0n, apart from the theoretical objection, I object to the existencR ·of the Council on the ground of expediency. \VB are told that the Legislative Council is a revising Chamber. As a mattN of fact thf second Cho,Ptber-the House of Lords­came really before tho House of Commons ; so historically the pre;.ent Chamber is not reallv a revising Chamber at all. But to proceed. I want ' to point out that the alleged revis~l of legis Ia tion by the . Legi~­lative Oounml can be summed up m thts manner : they turn down everything of a democratic nature, and in every way fost~r and promote the interests of monoply m this State. Take the work they d1d last ses­sion. Take their work in throwing out the Scock and Farm Produce Agents Bill, and in amo,nding the Pure Sends Bill. The latter only got through the Council by a very na;row majority, just escaping the fate meted out to the Stock and Farm Produce Agents BilL Then the Elections Act Amend­ment Bill~a Bill introduced for the purpose of depriving hundreds of wealth-producers in this State of the franchise-was rushed through the Cou?~il with !\re~t speed. 'There was no revtsmg or revwwmg there. If we take the Companies Act Amendment Bill-a measure to promote the interests of ·great mining companies in Queensland and -elsewhere-we find that it also went through very rapidly-not the slightest semblance of

reviewing or revising there. But when there is any measure of a democrat!? nature place_d before the Council, we find this unde;nocrat!C reviewiwr takes place. Professor 1< reeman, in his \~ork ''Origin and Gr~:nvth of t_he House of Lords," in dealing w1th the pomt that I am now discussing, says-

" The House which we sonwtimes speak of as the Second Chambe1· is historicully the first. It "as in being before the other. Therefore the Ho:rse of . Lords was cel'tainly not called mto bemg to reyise or obstruct the acts of thP House of Uon1n1ons.''

According to that quotation, and according to our experience in Queensland and the experience of other States m Aust~aha, the existence of thP Legislative Counctl cannot be justified from the point of view that 1~ ts a r~vie,ving or revisin~. Uhan1ber. ~ rno_t1o_n in favour of the abohtw.n of the Counml IS justified by a rcferPnce to other couutr~:'o. We find tktt in Finland the Leg1slati';e Council has been abolished. \Ve find that m Canada with the oxcPpt.ion of two pro­Yince.,, 'the Legi;;lative Counc!l~ _have been abolished, and there is no cntrc1sm or the shghtcst objection on the part of the J?Ubhc. The work of Parliament there is earned on ju,;t as expeditiously and j':'st as effectively -in fact more so-as prevrously; and that would happc·n in this State> if. t.h<' amL'ndrm nt l have just moY<'d were earned. Th~ adyo­cacy of the abolition of the Lr,gt~lattve Council is not confin<>d tD the rr.emberc, ?f the Labour party. \Ye find_ that the Errs­bane ·· '1\·ll':~r~ph," al:out l:;Gt>, haJ a . v<>ry ""'·ere artide on the Council, and pomted out that it would soon have to give way t<:> a much simpler form of gm·ernmen~, an_d contcndt'<l that the existence of t~e Counerl could not be justified, ~nd t~at ~t was m­consistPnt and incompattble wtth democraCJ:. Th0 Melbourne " Age " also has very _cau~ti­callv criticised the work of the Legislative Cou'ncils, and pointed out that the. time has arrived ·when they should be abolrshed .. So that the movement is yery c_ompr<lhens~ve, and not confined to any parbcular section. 'l'he hon. member for j)ofurilla has, 1 supposP, mbmitted the motion because he has been directed to do so bv the farmer"' party. It is a plank in their platform. We haYe J;>een told time a' ,l again, when we have giYen notice of motiom and amendments, that we are doing- it under the heel of the caucus. ]';0 v· we find the hon. memb2r-who has ~ev~r to my knowledge discussed th~s proJ;>­lem before .now-corr.ing forward With this motion.

Mr. MoRGAN: It is nev<lr too lat<l, you kr.ow.

Mr LARC0::\1BE : It is p1:0tty nearly too lat.e for the country party. When" I la't spoke here I referred to them as the corner party," but after the yote that was taken on the no-confidence motiOn, I can refer to them as tho "cornered party," bE~'ause the~ have b'"'n cornered by the Premter and ~IS <:ol­lca<>'ues. The abolition of the Legtslattve Co~ncil is aho justified on the score . of economy. Thousands of poun?s ~re bemg e:<rpended annually on the Legislative Coun­cil that could be more properh'. e;-tlplo~·ed 111

promoting agriculture and asststmg: people g·enerally in this State. We hear tlme and ao-ain of th<? extravagance of government. Ever since federation we have heard that the cost of government has gone up enor­mously. Certainly it ho:s, and the . Sta~e Parliaments have done httle to restnct It.

Mr. Larcombe.]

218 Legislative Council. [ASSEMBLY.] Legislative Council.

'Y e oan roouce the cost of government can­Siderably by abolishing the Legislative Coun­cil, and in so doing we would not in any way reflect upon those who occupy scats in that Chamber to-day. I have already indi­cated that I have no personal animus against any member ot the Council. I take a much higher ground of objection to that Chamber than that. Vi<>wing it from another stand­point, the Council is an excre5cenoe on the body politic. If they endorse the work of the Assembly, they am superfluous; if they do not pass it, then their exist.encc cannot oo justified, and Padiame.nt must find some way o£ overcommg their objection. \Ve find, howevBr, that every second Chamber, when it is challenged, has succnmbed to the public will. In 1832, wh(•n the House of Lords re­jectBd the Rdorm Bill, they had to give way. The threat to swarr.p the House of Lords was suffieient to persuade them-if not t<J support the Bill, at least not to prevBnt it lx>coming law. Dealing with this problem, Prof-e,0or Freeman, in ''Origin and Growth of the House of Lords," says-

" \Vhen a great wavB of popular feel­ing is aroused, the second Chamber must bow. If they are in agreement, they are unnecesary ; if in opposition, a stumbling block."

Sir Charles Dillw. in his work, "Problems of Greater Britain," sa:y">:J-

" Colonial l.'pper Houses, whether nominated by the Crown, as in New South Wales, the Dominion of Canada, ~ cw Zealand, N e\1 foundland, or Quebec, or elected as in Victoria, South Australia or Ta:,,mania, arc '\Veale' ''

So there arc two high authorities who con­sider that the existence of the bi-cameral system of govornmeht is absolutely unneces­sary. Again, it has bce.n given out to us time and again that the Legislative Council IS reallv some divine growth-that it is the result of the concentrated and deliberate wisd01r. of our forefathers. Nothing could be mor<> erroneous. Tne bi-cameral system was n,allv a;, accident of history. It has come about-like many other pha<es of go­vernm<>nt-without any set purpose on the part of our forefath<>rs. \Ve might just as well have had fuur Chambers in Queens­land. like they haw had in some other parts of the world; it was originally intended to have four Chambers in England instead of two. In his " English Constitution," Pro­fessor Fr('eman '0ays-

" That form of government which poli­tical writers call bi-cameral, that is to say, whNo the Legislative Assembly con­sists of two or more Chambers, arose out of one ot the accidents of English his. tory." "'

So you see that thie all('ged devine institu­tion is only an accident, and has really no >:rrur,·i hi;,torical justifica 1 ion. ....-\gain, Pro­fessor Freeman. writing on the origin and growth of the House of Lords, says-

" Docs anyone believe that there was a tim~; when the English nation or some king or lawgiver among them, came to the conclusion that it would be a good thing to have a Parliament of two Houses, rather than of one, three, or fom·? . . . If anybody does believe all this h<> would find it a little hard to find the lawgiver who determined it .all. It was no part of the wisdom of our forefathers, that is, not part of their

[1llt_:, Larcombe.

wisdom acting of set purpose, to have­two Houses at all. \Vc might just as well have had, like some other nations, one­House, or three, or four. That we hap­pened to have two, that a great many other nations have imitated us in having two, simply came about like other things, by a chapter of accident·'·"

I think that indicates that it is time we seriou,ly considered the question of reform in our system of government, and that we should abolish the Legislative Council. It has only come about by an accident, and it. is only here to-day because it was a part of a system elsewhere.

Mr. \VELSBY: Pure luck.

Mr. LARCOMBE : Exactly, and bad luck at that. If we acted on our convictions and exorcised our powers, I am sati,ficd that thB existence of the Legislative Council in this State would be of very short duration. It may be asked if the Legislative Uouncil does not serve some very valuable and W·.eful pur­pose, and it may be said that the pref ent Government or any other Gov< rn:uent would not continue the existence of the Uouncil if it did not serve some u.eful purpo.,c. That may appear to be a sound argument, but, as a matter of fact, it is really wBak and unsound when we come to analy· e it, because the present Government and all previous GDvernmcnts have approved of t~e existence of the Council simply because It has been a bulwark for the legislation th<:y desired to pass. To-day we find that the Council is exceeding what may be termed· tho reasonable functions of a Chamber of that kind in that it is advprselv criticising the worl~ of the Legislative Ass~mbly. Wo find that members of the other plac<' have n<l­versely criticised thr industri';l legislatio_n paPsed by this House last sessiOn. That IS· presumption on the part of that Chamber, and when they do that ~ind of thii_lg it !s time we a.<ked ourselves If they are m their right position, and if there is a;"Y justificati<;m for the existence of the Council. The Legis­lative Council really exists because it is the bulwark of 'l'oryism in Queensland. That ~& the real reason for its existence, and th•:t Js. the rea.''On whv the present Administration and other Ad~inistrations have tolerated its existence, though it means the expenditure of thousands of pounds of the taxpayers' money annuallv. The "~Iornin.g- BullC'tin,'' which is not a Labour paper, but which is strongly anti-Labour, has ma~c some v<;ry s<:'vere critimsms of Legislative Counmls. In an artidc published on the 23rd Novem­ber, 1913, it says-

" In Sydney there has been a Labour majoritv in the Lower House, but the Upper 'House remains an impregnable buttr<>ss of Conservatism."

That remark applies to New South \Vales, and it also appliPs to Queenslar:d. as well as to other States where the nommce sysh·m is in force. The Melbourne " Age" of the 12th March, 1910, criticises the Legishti YB Council in the following terms-

" Tho Coneervatives have c·verywherc turned their faces awav from the Federa­tion tDwards the States. Their reasons are clear. The Legislative Gouncils of the States with their restrictive franchise offer a protection to a Tory which he cannot find in th<:' broader politic"l atmosphere of the Commonwealth."

The Melbourne " Age" has no sympathy with.

Legislative Council. (16 JULY.] Legislative Council. 21~

Labour,. and yet it speaks in that way of the Leg1.elat1ve Council system. Anyone who has followed the history of Australia will agree \nth the quotations I have given from ~pe '' ~!orning Bulletin" and the M:lbourne

Age. But we have a further w1tnpss to t\1e C?n~ervative nature of the Legislatiye CC!unml Ill Queensland, and that is the Pre­nHe_r. hm1self, who, in dealing with the op­position. of the. Council to certain proviswns m the Liquor B1ll, said-

. " The simple fact is that large vested Interests are being exercised with im­mense power in the Legislative Council."

The Premier was indignant then, becau.;e of the attitude of the Legislative Council towards the Liquor Bill, and he pointed out th_at then; were vested interests there which wwlded Immense power. That was true !hen, and it is _true to-day--they are wicld­mg that power m a way that is not for tho welfare of the taxpayers in this State.

Mr. IVELSBY: You are wrong.

Mr. LARCOMBE : The hon. member for Merthyr agreed with me all the time until I spoke of the Liquor Bill, and now be~ause I quote the words of the Premier on the Liquor Bill he disagrees ··;ith me. Yl<' find ~o-day that n:embers of the Council speak ;n very glowmg terms of the introduetion mto Queen,;land of the American meat trust. The Hon. :\Ir. 'Whittingham and other mem­bers of the Council stated during the cm­re~cy of tho present seo.sion that it is a fine thmg for the State that the trust has C''JHl

here, and t~at _it would be a fine thing if other combmatwns from America would establish works in Queensland.

The SPEAKER: Order ! Th8 hon. mem­ber is treading on rather delicate ground, and I hope he will not exceed the limit, of debate in that connection.

Mr. L.\R('OMBE: I do not i11te!1d to pro­ceed any ~urther '?n that line, Mr. Speak<:>r. I have gn·en brwfly and as coneiselv as possib)e my reasons for moving the an1cnd­ment Ill bvour of the abolition of the Lerris­lative Council. and I think that if the h~n. ;nem~er for Murilla really desir0s reform m th1s matler he will, in view of the remarks made by the Premier, support the amend­ment.

C'.Ir. l\IORG.\~: That would be de;truction, not reform.

Mr. L.'i.RCOMBE: The han. member must ?hoose the lesser of two evils. The Prt'mier 1s strongly opposed to an elective Legislative Council, and it is now for the hon. member for ::\Iurilla and. the members of the country party to deter:mme whether they will have a contmuance of the present system or support an amendment to bring about the abolition of the Council. ·

Mr. MoCOR?viACK (Cairns): I dP,ire to second the amendment. I consider that the Premier himself gave the best argument that has been advancer! in favour of the abolition of the second Chamber when he argued against the present Senate in the Common­wealth. His argument against the Senate was that it can be used by the Lower House at any time it likes. That is the situation in connection with the 'Cpper Honee in Queensl_and. as J sha_ll prove. The Upper House m Queensland IS a nominee House, an

undemocratic House. A very able authority on constitutional law, profos·-or Dicey, says·-

" The normal theory of second Cham­bers as expressed in their constitutions is plainly that there should exi>t a pow•'!" capable of thwarting the first Chamber either .in the name of some non-demo­cratic authority, or in the name of the component States of a federation."

The Federal Senate have at least the right to say tha.t they represent State rights, but the upper House in Queensland can make no such claim-they are merely a House of vestBd interests. And, as Professor Dicey says, under the QuBensland Constitution they have a House that acts in the name of some· non-democratic authority. That is right. The present Queensland House is a House that acts in the interests of a non-democratic <1uthority; and if you take that as the basis

of our argnn1ont "\Ye can prove [5.30 p.m.] that there is no need for a. second

Chamber in Queensland at all. I can prove by quotations from eminent autho­rities that the bi-t·ameral svstem is not neces­sary in the State of Q~censland. Some authoriti8s in England, a1nongst ·whom a.re Mr . .F. E. Smith, Profc,ssor Dicey himself, and Sir Robert Finlay, hold that since the passing of the Parliament Act in England the House of Lords is unnecPssarv. Yet we have exactly the same provisio-n here in regard to our 'Cpper House. \Ve have a pro­vision in the Constitution t:1at if a Bill is passed by this House t'.l o or three times in succes.•iv<> sc,·•ion' it mav be submitted to the people. The Parlian;ent Act provides that should a Bill be defeated three times­by the Lords it becomes law, and conse­quently the eminent authorities I have quoted say th:tt the House of Lord:·• has no more use, and should be "boli<hcd forthwith. If that is truv in Enulanrl, it i·, al'o equally tnlf' in QuP<'!1slant! to-day th<lt there is no occasion for an Upper House. I am now going to quote some rt>marks from a, book entitled "Rights of C'itiz<>nship." There are a number of con­tributors >vho arP \Hiting on this very same question, and this is what Lord Hugh Cecil says-he is not a Labourite, at an;~· rate, nor is he a Liberal. He says, in regard to second Chambers-

" The weakness, therefore, of the nomi­nated svstem in democratic States is that it does· not take its origin from any respected principles. A nominated mem­ber, unlike an elec1Pd member, cannot claim t-o have been chosen by the people ; again, if he be nominated by a party Mini,try, he cannot claim the authority which in undemocratic States is still given to the choice of th<> monarch. He is weak because he cannot trace hi!t origin to any respeeted source."

He is wPak; he ha'i no authority at all, and he is undemocratic We in Australia believe in democracy, and believe a second Chamber is not necessary, because I propose to prove, by this book later on that it is possible, in this authority's opinion anywa:-:. for any Ministry of the day to pass any legislation it pleases without, reference to the Upper House. That being so, I think it is unneces­sarv to hav<> a second Chamber. The same authority says-

" Yet a. part from swamping, the par­tisan taint which is inher<>nt in the system of nomination by a party

Mr. McCormack.]

"

. 220 Legisla,ive Council . [ASSEMBLY.] Legislative Council.

Ministry has so weakened the authority of these second Chambers that they are seldom able to offer any effectuaJ resist­ance to the -desires of the Lower House."

That is quite true. In fact, they are unable to offer any resistance at all. The only

-argument that can be used in favour of the Upper House, and which was used b:y. the Premier, is tha.t they may delay legislation. They cannot :;top, but they may delay. What is to be gained by delaying?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: Irnprovenwnt sometimes.

:Mr. McCOR::\1ACK: If the Lower House is determined to pass legislation in Queens­land, that legislation will become the l<Lw without any reference to the Gpper House. The Premier has proved that, and we know very well that that is the case. On this very same question the s:tmc authority, writing on second Chambers in the British dominions, says of Queensland-on this very Constitu­tion we are discussing-

" Queensl<Lnd has, however. the weak­ness that its second Chamber is nomi­nated b:, a party Ministry, and this same weakness attaches to all the nominated second Chambers in the BritiFh Empire, and apparently pro.-ents then1 efficiently exercising flven the suspensol'y function of obliging reference to the people either formally by referendum, <LS in Queens­land, or ehewhere informally by a. general election."

That proYes that il:c second Chamber as we have it constituted-even with the re­ferenda provisions--hac. no say in vetoing legislation, and it is time we abolished it. Some of the Constitutio lS of other countries, notably Canada, have nominee Chambers, ;md in rc,pect to Canadct, the same authority .says-

" The members o£ the Senate being, all of them, men of advanced years, vacancies were frequent, and it was not long before a Liberal majority, not less subservient to the Liberal Administra­tion than the forrrer Conservative ma­jority had been to its predecessors, wa;; established in the Renate. A similar proce;,s has now begun with the new Conserva­tive Government. H is difficult for those who have not lived in a country to pro­nounce with confid<>nce on the working <:>f an institution. But it would seem that the principal defect of the Canadian Senate is it; sub,ervience t<:> the Govern­ment of the dav: and that this subser­vience is caused' by a system of nomina­tion which places overwhelming influence in the hand~ of the Government."

That is true, and that is tho position of Queensland to-day, and why I believe we should aboli-;h the Upper House. If it has no power, why retain it? If it is necessary to have some chamber to revi,ew, why not adopt some system on the Norwegian plan, ,,-hereby a quarter of the members of the Assembly is formed into a committee of review ? I believe under the Norwegian system, if the Committee of Review do not agree with the main Assembly, the matter is -~1iscussed together-it is debated by the n;embers sitting as one House.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: A Committee of Review from one party?

Mr. McCORMACK: No; there are a m.umber of parties there. There are more

[Mr. McCormack.

parties there than here. . Still, w~ are not discussing the party questron. It IS argued bv the other side that it is necessary to have some chamber of review. I take it that that i,;, the Premier's argument, and there is no doubt there i" something in the argument. There is no doubt that at various times in this House legislation has been pa.ss9d, ~nd will be passed aga.m, under the gmll'?tme, which would g<• on the statute-book m at least an unfini~hed form. Therefore, there is something in the •argurri8nt that there .,. should be a. chamber of review, but there ig no argument that it should be " nominee lifo Chamber. There has bPen no argument adduced to-d.t:,· to prove that the _various vested interests should have the nght of review. While they have the right of review under om· Constitution, they have no real power. l think the Lower House will ah\ ays be the stronger House.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : \Yho appoints the Norwegian Committee of Revie•w-the Speaker?

Mr. ::\1cCOR::V1ACK: The House Itself. No doubt tne Government appoint them, but thev onlv hold office during the term of that Go-i·erm,";ent.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC I;;STRUt:TION : They are the ·nominees of the Government?

:Mr. ::YlcCORMACK : Ko doubt they are the nominees of the Government. If the party syst-em exists, they would be the nom!­nees of the Government, and I suppose It does exist. Tho idea thPre is that ther:P should be a chamber of review, and that IS what they have carried out in appointing part of their own number. And a somewhat simila-r arrangement is in the Federal Con­stitution. I cannot understand myself why the framers of it did not provide for a joint meeting of the Senate and House of Repre­sentatives befor8 they submitted them to a double dissolu'tion. I could never under­stand that. One of these writer:·', ::\lr. ~mith, ;.aid that the framers of tlw Constitut;.on nlll"t have been asleep-- and this bcok v,a, ;nittcn before tbis crisis c.ccurrecl in tho Federal Par­liament-ht· said he could not unch·r·· 1and why the framers of the Constitution slwu;d allow both Houses to be dis-;olved fir'ot, and then moot togdher if a ckadlock still existPd. 1.Yhs not meet toKetlwr first of all:

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. McCORMACK: That seems to me to be the accept<?d form. And in Queensland we have no State righh to defend. · It is no use saying that the Labour party, because they dominate the Senat<', do not represent State rights. The Constitution does not re<:ognise St<Lte rights. The id<•·a of the men who framed the Constitution was that the Senate should be a State Rights House-there is no doubt about that, and there is no doubt that it still holds good in spite of what the Liberal party may ,ay to the contrary. I think that the members of the present SenatP, whether thev were Liberal or Labour, if they thought that the big States were going to deprive the States of equal representation, would buck against it. We would find the State rights feeling still there.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : Because it would touch their interests.

Mr. McCORMACK : Of course it would. As to the arguments that the Upper House here should be a nominated Chamber, I

Legislative Council. [16 Jur.Y.] Legislative Council. 2.H

think there was not one a1'gument brought forward to show that there was any nece:ssity for a second Chamber at all.

The PREoiiER: That was not my object. I just wanted to show the superiority of a nominee Chamber over an elective Chamber.

Mr. McCORMACK: I agree with the hon. gentleman there. I would not agree with any elective principle that made provision for any restriction in the franchise. If any elective principle is adopted at all, I cannot see how any democratic people, how any democratic State, in this year of Our Lord, couid adopt a Constitution like those adopted in some of the other colonies. I cannot undePitand how anv State, even though it is Liberal and undemo-cratic, and hanging on to this old sy>tem of an 1Jpper House, could attempt to impose on the people an "Gpper House on a restricted franchise. I do not think that thev would dare to do it; I do not think that the people would stand it even if made law, because, to all intents and purposes, they never feel our 1J pjwr House until an occacion such as the passage of the Liquor Bill. For the people, the "C pper House does not exist, because they pass all legislation which is passed by this House. But I think if it should eYer become an e-ntrenched House of vested int0rests. elccteJ on a restricted fran­chise. the people would find that the "Cpper House had real pow0r to veto.

Mr. MORGAX: That is all right when there is a Liberal Ministry. But what about a Labour GoYernment?

Mr. McCOR::\;1ACK: It applie~ equally to a Labour Goycrnmcnt. If there was a La~our. GoYe~rnment they would pass legis­lation m sprte of the Upper House. Of course they would, and "hv should they not 1 That is what I wanted somebody to tell me. The Liberal Government would have pas,ed legislation in spite of the ~Cpper House if the Upper House had not climbed down. At le:Jst the P1·f'mier said oo. He said that he would send that Liquor Bill through whether the 1Jpper House liked it or not, and I give him credit for believing that he meant to keep his word. That being so, tho "Cppcr House is unnecessary. If it is Only noressary to dot "i's" and eros~ '' t's "­and we have had any amount of illustration of that in Bills passe"d here. a comma put in hero and there just to ehow that they are there-if that is all they are there for, I think it is time that thev were abolished. I think we are inflicting ·a lot of hardship on a number of worthy gentlemen, keeping them up here late at night sometimes doing unimportant work. They have no power, and why should we give them this priYilege? There is no doubt that custom keens it here. Because there was a House of Lords at home, that is why an Upper House was intro­duced here, and that is why it exists hero and in other States to-day.

Mr. MORGAN: \Vhv do not tho Govern­ment of New South \Vales abolish them?

Mr. McCORMACK : They are going to l"t them die out, and perhaps that might not be a bad thing to do here, if there was going to be any hardship on the old gentle­men by abolishing them.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : The Ministry might die out before them. (Laughter.)

Mr. McCORMACK : They might. At any rate, "Jhe argument used by the Premier

carries no weight at all in my oprmon. It may not be as good an opinion as the Premier's, but it is backed up by the opinion of authorities at home who are authorities. The "C pper House has written powers which it cannot exercise; its wings are clipped. Although we all beliew. although we all seem to believe, that the Upper House has C'ertain rights of veto. \VO know very well th,t they have no right of veto at all. We know that if this House intends to carry a thing, and makes up its mind to carry it and make it law, then it will be made law in spite of the "Upper House. And if that be the case, why keep them going'! If there was some nece,0ity for some Chamber of revision, some House to otop hasty legis­lation-it is a good saying of tho Liberal party, to stop hasty legislation, which by the way they neycr repeal when they get into power, they never repeal any of the "hasty legislation" of tho Labour party--if that is so, why not appeal to the people? \Vhy not submit it to a referendum, as they do in Switzerland? \Vhy not let the electors be the Chamber of revision?· If we are going to be democratic, that is the most democratic way of all. If the people say that a pro­posal is to be law, let it be law. It may be novel at first, but in Switzerland they talm great intere't in it. and they vote on all meaeures pa;o;sed by Parliament. If any parties come together for the purpose of forming a Ministry the people have the right of veto on their legislation, which may be compromise legislation. And that i,; what I would do if I had the power. I bclieYe in the single Chamber system in the States of Australia, with th0 submis~ion of all legislation, all important legislation. to the electors to decide whether it should be-come law or not.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTI0:'\1 (Hon. J. W. Blair, lp5wich): The hon. member who has just resumed his seat made a very interesting contribution to this debatB, and he said a great deal with which I am in accord. I do not, how­ever, agree that the motion moved by the hon. member for Murilla, as amended, should · be carried, and I propose very bnefly to give my reasons for that belief. Comtitutional writers have been quoted by various speakers. 1 need hardly remind you, Mr. Speaker, that in matters constitutional, as in other matters, it. is possible tc get experts to support almost any Yiow f.ut forth. I uould adduce authori­ties mvsel , but I do not intend to waste time h;v so doing, who strongly support the bi­nameral system.

Mr. THEODORE : That is a reflection on the Premier.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTIO~: The only reflection I can make on the Premier is that he gave a most excellent answer to the motion of the han. member for M urilla. (Hear, hear !) I c.ould~ adduce constitutional writers who have urged that the bi-cameral system, although a relic or past ages, is one which was founded on the deepest-rooted wi,dom of the past-the wisdom of peovle well versed in such matters. It scerr.s tD me that too little regard is paid to the strength which comes from antiquity, and the strength which eomes when constitu­tional u'age has been thoroughly test,?d, and has borne the storm of str·~ss and criticism. (Hear, hear !) Although I personally be­lieve in a bi-cameral system under certain safeguards, I do not think, however, even with all this multitude of authority, that one

Han. J. W. Blair.]

222 Legislative Council. [ASSEMBLY.] Legislative Council.

should consider that system sacrosanct. If cogent arguments were adduced in favour of tho abolition, and if they appealed to me, I >hould not hesitate in tho slightest degree to yield my former opinions to one resting on bettPr foundations. Personally, I think that the analogy drawn with regard to the Senate and the present position is absolutely and entirely false. The Commonwealth Con­stitution provide, that the SenatB shall be eiect<·d, and as the majority in that Chamber rqHL'stmt a certain party-and this will be <o as long as the party system exists; it must inevitably be co in that particular Oham­!Jpr-the exigencies of party insist that thB c~ucus 'hull rule there. (Hear, hear!) So that in"tead of tho "~cond Chamber there being "hat it is supposed to bo constitu­ti~mally-a deliberative assembly, constituted ot people who have proved themsPlves in the various walks of life, whose long tenure in profo"sions or in co1nmerce or in business nave specially qualified them for the call to that pl;we, to whom the country looks for that added intelligence in the framing of measures, instead. of being all that, it is a EPcondar.Y Chamber to reprc>ent the decrees of the party caucus.

:Y1r. LAP.cO>IBE: How long did it take· you tr> lind that out?

T!H' HECRETARY J<'OR PCBLIO IN­S'l'RCCTION: I am not aware that it took any particular time. However, what. I have d'.""cribed is an undesirable state of thing;;. Even if it were a Liberal Senate support­ing a LibNal Government in the House of RcpresPntativcs it would be iu·ct as undesir­able as it is at the pre,,ent day.

Mr. THEODORE : Yon consider it is unde­sirable?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­S'I'RUCTIO;\;: I gtate that publicly here. J am not afraiJ to state what my views are and n<'vcr have been, and I have never had tn withdraw them. I never d2viate from my pronounced opinions i.n the slightest. The stronge,t argument in support of that i; that I am here to-day in spite of the voluminous misrepresentations hurled against lllG.

GOVERNYENT ME}JBERS : Hear, hear !

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRCCTIO='< : It would be an undesirable •,tate of things such as thal '' hi<'h exists in the Senate, to-day. Assuming that the motion v. ere carried. and an elective Upper House were agreed i& on th('· ~;am0 hanchise as <•Ur•elvcs, what would be the result? It "·auld be pr.tdically nothing more nor less than a duplication of this Chamber to bring ,,bout prad.:,·ally no good result•·, Further, ii there is to be· a bi-cameral s0 otem, it leads me to thi·. incsistible con0lusion: that it ~·"rtainlv sholllci not be on an elective basis. (Hear, ·hear!) A motion has been moved, and an amer:dment has been moved, to ccbolish the Upper Chamber. Great stre's l1 ''"' been laid as to the eo't of this Chamber 10 the community. I must confess that that argument never app<'aled to be, because there is practically nothing in it. What is tho co~t of that Chamber? There is a President at £1,ono a :venr and a Chairman of Ccmur.ittel''< at .£500 a vear. There are two clerks, three rnescr·ng~rs, and a char­v,·oman. Then there are the free railwav pa,,ses grant~d to members and the cost d£ "Hansard." I do not think the cost of lio-htinp: enter" into the matter at all, be­c;use they very rarely sit in the evening.

[linn. J. W. Blair.

Certain arguments have be,,n used against the Council on the ground that some of the hon. gentlemen there have attained a certain age. My own Pxperience of sorr.e of them is this --I rarclv have· met men better informed 11nd with ·a greater source of knowledge than some of these gentlemen posseos. There are men there who have made successes of busi­ness, who have rnado a suc-eess of commerce, and who have made successes in the pastoral industrv and in other industries. There are men who have been successes professionally. :My personal opinion, carefully considered, io that it is of inestimable benefit to us to have the adn,ntage of advice from those gent!Nnen. Vrlwther we can obtain that advice in some other way, as sugg·0.sted by tlw han. member who spoke last, is another matter. V\'hilo he was speaking I int-er­jcet0d in reg·ard to the Norwegian com­mittee. I had no desire to disconcert the hon. member. It was simply to try to elucidate for mvself what reallY that com­mittee was. Ii that committee were --elected from the CLamber-the one deliberative Assc-mblv that exists there-what would it cunount 'to? It wo,_,ld practically be a select concmittee, appointed by the Government, with a majority on that committee support­ing tho Government-practically the same thing again as a nominee Chamber. My viPw of tho l'ppor House us a nominee Chamber is shorth and briefh· this: that it exists there as a l~ind of buffer between the Crown and the people. It exists also as a check on legislation-not a check on this so-called hast~- legislation. It is a cherk on legislation which goes there without proper discussion here owing to our having some­times to have recourse to those forms with­out which we could do no busine,s.

Mr. McCOR11ACK: That is the only reason for the ~orwegian committee.

The SECHETARY FOR P"CBLIC IX STRGCTION: C\,rtainly. That is the rea­son it appeals to me. To say that the Council could block any democratic legisla­tion in the face of the measure which we passed in this Chamber is simply beating the wind. (He.ar, hear !)

Mr. RYA~: They can stave ;t off.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRCCTION: We have a Referendum Act whi~h we nassed some time ago v,-hioh pro­vides for thi1.1.

Mr. Bow~L\N: It was pa"sed because of ti~,eir obstructive policy.

The SECH.ETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTIOX: 'fhe Act I refer to was paHed in 1~08. There i'' no need for me to read it, but Jt provides that when a measure ie twice r<>jected by the Upper House it can be referred bv the Government to the country, and if tli" referenda is pass2d by the people thc·n it becomes law.

:VIr. RYAN: Then, whc- don't you push on ,.-ith tho Stock ar'd Farm Produce Agents I~ ill?

'I'hP SECRETARY FOR PDBLIC IN­STRUCTION: 13F,;ause we are pushing out this motion fust. (Laughter;.) I have always bee'l told that it is impof"ible to deal with h,-o thin;s'' succe··dully at cne and the same time. To say that the Upper Honse is a ch,ock on progre4sive legislation is wrong, and we are at time'' glad that we have got an l:pper House to review measures. (Hear, hear!)

Workers' Dwellings Acts (16 JULY.] Amendment Bill. 223

At 7 o'clock the House, in accordance 1vith 13essional Order, proceeded with (}overnment business.

RESCISSION OF ORDER.

Tlje I'RE::YllER, in moving- "' " 'l'hat the order made on the 7th J ~ly

for the printing of the report of the Inter­state Conference, held in lYielbourne, .March-April, 1914, and the report of the Treasurers' Conference, May, 1914, be rescinded,''

·said: When I tabled these various reports, on my motion the House ordered that they be printc d. I should not have made the motion, and therefore I ask the House now to ro-.cind it. Hon. members will recollect that they have each rocei,-ed a copy of the report of the Interstate Conference, and also ·of the Treasurers' Conference, so that each member of the House i' in posse&:,ion of the <iocumonts. The records also are stored in what we know as the strongroom. It would be a >cry needless cost to go to the expenso ·of setting up the type and issuing the report. I regret having inadvertently moved the motion, which I now ask the leave of the House, so that it may be thoroughly in -order, to re,cind.

Question put and passed.

\YORKEUS' DWELLI:\"GS ACTS A.\JE.ND­Ml~~T B1LL.

INITIATIOX.

The TRE'd3L:RER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, Bulimba), in moving-

,, That the Hon·•9 will, <J.t its next sit­ting, resohe it,elt into a Committee of the Whole to cn.1sider of the dm,irablene's of int ::oduciLg a Dill to an1end the Wvrkers' Dwclli .. gs Act of 1909, by mak­ing better provision for the insurance of workers, d'vc.-dlings,"

~aid: I preoume the reason why the leader ui the Opposition called ''Not formal," was '· ith tho view of getting· some information '"' tu what is intended by this Bill. I would 1 _, · w briefly state that, as will be knowi,

to bon. members, the \Vorkers' Dwellings ,\.ct has boon a very great succ0s,. There is a ttoocl deal of coinpctition, and somoti1ne~ a little annoyance in connection with the parti­cular business itself, a'" far as fire insurancE: io concerned. It is believed that it would be wry much better in the interests of the p:trti ·s who are erecting dwellings that they :•.hould be relieved of the trouble of having tu -Jrrange for insurances, by letting the Stat",

far ''·; they are concerned, take the whole rcspon:,ibiliYy. It will be a matter of con­w••lLnce, and probably in the long run be a "" ving of cxponso to the parties who <Lre interested. I would like to say, furth.·r, t!n·t in the Hill which will be introduced. provision will be made for any insurances that will be maturing from t'me to time; in other words, the \Yorkers' Dwellings Bo!trd will tuho over tho~o insurances, and renew aU the policie3 that a:t·e at pre ,mt in exidence.

Mr. THEOD0RE: Renew policies with private insurar.ce con1panies?

The TREASURER : Oh, no. Instead of renewing the poliC'ics with private insuranco companic" as the<· fall due-presuming the Bill had pahed in September, and it was

law-a polic·y falling due after that would be taken ove< by the 'vVorkers' Dwellings Board, and not renewed with a pnvate company.

Mr. RYAN (Ba;·coo): To some extent the Treasurer wac~ correct in Hurnising that I desired to get inforrnation with regard to the ~eope of the proposed amenduent of the law. I must say that I am pl0:,scd that t.he Government vroposo in this measure to embark on .a State insurance department. I am only corry that they do not extend that insurance even to a wider field. If it is to benefit the workers who l><we thm<' dwellings, as is stated in the Governor's Spe- dr, th<·I1 I think that that bonefrt should also oxtencl to others beyond those who happen to han, erected buildings under the provisions of that Act. I think we might widen the scope of this order of leave in th;,t dire;;tion, and also in the direction of liberalising the provisions of tho Act as it exi--ts. If we pass the order of leave as it is here, it simply enables us, when we get into Committ0e. to deal with the insuraw:o of \Yorkers' d\vellin;·s. \Vo want tD be able to interfere with ~tho Act in any other respect, we want to broaden it so as to bendit a large section of tho people of Quecmsland. I have a very vivid recollec­tion on 1na~-Y occas:on.:- of reading n1any re­ports, and tho mom bers of tho :,1i1.ist.ry and their supporters were cDnstantly crying out and claiming credit for themselves for having pa,osed the \Yorkers' Dwdlinw· Act.

The TRE.\'c1:RER: And rightly so, tDO.

).Ir. RYA:c\: And rightly so, too. The Ho~IE SECRETARY: You oppo,cd it.

::\olr. RY.\N: This Darty did not oppo'c it. This party wanted it broadened, and I th:nk it is a fayourablc opportunity for me to remind hon. gentlemen sitting oppo .. it~ that we arc still of the same opinion as we were then ; that we are still prepared to L>roaden it. and place them and their supporL,rs to the test as to who rC'allv is in fa,-our of assi .. ting the workers in "that direction. l think the> object I am ,coking can be bc"t scn-,•d by a slight amendment of the motion -that is, by omitting the words "by mak­ing " on the 4th line, and inserting " and to make" in their placo, and I move ac~ord­ingly.

Mr. KESf'ELL: Is this another v, ant of con­fidence motion?

:Mr. RY .\N: Of cm12 .. ,e it can be accepted a,; ><uch. (Government laughter.) The Go­vernment arc now very much inclined to crack the whip of a no-confidence motion over their folio" IC!"S. All I am concerned about i•· to do something for the benefit of the workers of Queensland, the same as in the last motion that I moved, which was to benefit the primary producers of Queensland.

OrPOSITw:;r MEMBEilS : Hear, hear !

~.Ir. RYAN: .\.n:; move that is made in the direoticn of benefiting these clas~~es of people can be regarded as a vote of no-confidence by tl.e Government, if they wish. I knO\> tlwre arc man~· resp,.,cts in which tho present \Y nrk· r ' Dv:ollings Act could be improved. I ha vo nc,. cr bf'Pn able to .-co myself why a pe:·con who desired to bu;;· a hotvo which is alrP.'cd,- built "hould not have th'l same opport'unity of getting a'distnnce from tb.o Stde to do that as they 'vould have to 0re a honso on land which· tllf'y hold. I wPll re­member the hon. and lro:Fne,l member f<w

Mr. R1tan.]

224 Workers' Dwellings Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill

Ipswich, when he was on these cros·s-bench<'5, advocating that the scope of the Workers' Dwellings Bill, which was then before the House, be widened so as to assist the land­less man to get a dwelling. The han. gentle­man will now have the opportunity of prov­ing whether he is still of that opinion­whether he is sincere-by voting for the amendment which I have moved_

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLit; INSTRUCTION : lo that your amendment'!

Mr. RYAN: My amendment will allow that to be moved in Committee. It will broaden the order of leave so as to leave the whole field of the amendment of the Act open tD discussion, and it will also give the oppor­tunity-which I always like tD get, ·and which I am sure hon. members on the other side like to see me get-of testing their sincerity on these matters. I remember my friend, thr hon. member fm Fortitude Valley, bring­ing up a matter last session which could be rcnwdiod by an amendment of the \Yorkers' Dwellings Act, and I have no doubt he will ha.ve something to :MJ.y on this amendment.

Mr. HlJ:'-;TER (Jfaranoa): I beg to second tho amendment, and in doing ~o I think the House will be well advised to accept it. There are e. number of ways in which the ·workers' Dwellings Act could be amended. I suggested two or three ;·oars ago that the Government should make certain land reser­vations within a reasonable distance of the cit0, and have the land surveyed into town lots. and have a tramway or a railway built so that this land woul-d be made available for \Yorkrnen's cottages, and also be connected by rail with their work in the city. That would not only enable men to build houses, but it would also give the Stat" greater security than it has at present. They would have regard, when selecting the land for building residences on, to the possibility of drainage and h> proper sanitary provision being made. V{e now have these workers' dwellings being erected in all the suburbs and slums of the city. I noticed coming up the line that just on the other side of Mayne Junction a number of buildings are going up, some of which may be erected under the \Yorkers' Dwellings Act. They are being built in a place 'Where, if a flood anything like that of 1893 should occur, they would be submerged. The Government e-hould see that people coming here without any knowledge of the ·devastating floods that have taken place in the past ar" protecte-d from loss in that way, and that they do nDt erect houses in localitie;; which are insanitary to start with, and where there is a great danger of loss of life and destruction of property. There is a big risk in this business, and for that reason the Government will be well advised if they agree to widening the scope of the motion so that the whole question of ·workers' (hvellings can con1e up for review, and an improvement bB probably made in that and other directions. There is also another matter to be considered. Since the Act. was passed, the New South Wales Go­vernment have started building a model town­ship for workers, and are letting tho houses at a reasonable rent.

Mr. KESSELL: Reasonable? Mr. HU::\!TER: Yes, at a reasonable

return on the cost. Mr. KESSELL : That is your idea, of a

reasonable return on the cost.

[lllr. Ryan.

Mr. HUNTER: The hon. member for Port Curtis interj ccted the other evening on the Yery same question, and I am of opinion that he docs not know what he is talking about. I have visited Daceyville, this mod<:)l town, and I got my information frDm the­gentleman who has been placed in charge of th4! building and laying out of the place by the Government of New South Wales. I am referring to this, Mr. Speaker, as a reason for accepting the amendment, so that the scope of the measure may be widened.

The Ho~m SECRETARY: You might describe the method of selecting the tena11ts, too, in connection with tho" 1 houses.

Mr. HUNTER: I wish to inform hon. members that there is a method adopted in another State which, to my mind, is even superior to the method adopted in the VI' orkers' Dwellings Act. The choice might be given, either of erecting buildings with the assistance of a loan from the Government or of the Government building these model suburbs. In Daceyvillc the buildings are well constructed, and well drained, and every care is taken with regard to the sanitary conditions; and the proof. if any proof were wantc·d, that they arc giving entire satisfac­tion is to be found in the fact that there are hundreds of applications in the hands of those who have the allotment of the houses. They have no trouble in finding tenants, and there are applications from all ov<>r Sydney for the extension of the •»ystem. I think it would be a good thing if the Gowrnment included provision for that llOrt of thing in this Bill. The amendment will give the House an opportunity of consideri_pg such a system as they have adopted in New Routh \Vales, and it would do away with a lot of jobbing in land and high rents.

The SPEAKER: Order! I remind the hon. member that the quce~tion he is now discussing is entirely outside the scope of the Workers' Dwellings Act. The question is the amendment of that Act in a certain direction. The obj<'Ct of the amendment is to try to widen the scope of the Bill w.hich it is proposed to introduce. In that I think he is perfectly right, but in attempting to show that a different scheme of legisltJ.tion shonld be introduced he is npt in order.

Mr. HU:'-;TER: I wish to show that by widening the scope of the order of leave in the direction suggested by the leader of the Opposition in his a.n1endment this quP,tion could be discussed. Up to the present the \Vorkers' Dwellings Act has done excellent work, but I think the time is not far distant wl1en we shall have the same trouble as we find to-day with regard to rents. Those who erect houses under the Act may sell out at a high price to some speculator or investo_r, and the high price the purchaser pays w1ll be the basis on which he will fix the rent to the incoming tenants, and con;equently rents mullt go up. Such a state of things cannot occur if we adopt the principle now operat­ing in New South Wales, and which might operate in Queensland if the House accept..

_ the amendment. For that reason I am going to support the amendment.

Mr. BO\VMAN (Fortitude Valley): Last session I twice drew attention to oNtain facts that had arisen in connection with tho operations of the \Yorkers' Dwellings Board.

Workers' Dwellings Acts (16 JULY.] Amendment Bill. 225

\Yhen I brought the matter under the notice of the Treasurer, the hon. gentleman seemed to doubt my word. He said, "Arc you sure of vour facts? " And I told him that my information harl been confirmed by the officers of the \Yorkers' Dwellings Board. One of tho reasons why I should like to sec thP scope of the Bill ,;idened io that certain <'Jntractors who have been employed by the \Yorkers' Dwellings Board have left before the compluion of their contracts, owing rnone> to sub-contractors to the extent of b0twoen £60 and £80. In one case there was £60 due to a sub-contractor who did the plumbing work for a house, and he could not gc~ peion:r cf it, with the result that the per.sun who was buildins· the hou•e got tho '•·ork dono £f.O cheaper than he expected originally. \Yhen we were discu·,•ing the Financial Statement last y<'ar, tho Tr·0asurer <'xpresscd a doubt as to the < orrectnes~ of the stat<>ment I made in e•mnection with that case, and I told him that the fact~ were con­firmed by the '''cretary of the \Yorkers' Dwellings Board. I consulted the Crown Solir-:tor about the matter, and he informed me that as the law •toad there was no chance of anything being done. There v ere two differPnt cases of that kind in connection with the same rnon-:\lr. Springfield, a. plumber, and a painter. In one Ntse £42 was owing to them, and they got £21, and in tho otlwr case £60 odd was due to them, and they got nothing. It is unfair for the Go>ernment to allow any contrac-tor to get away with rnon0y like that. and thr·y should exercise proper supervision m·er all con­tractors so as to protent the intere,ts of sub­cuntra.ctors. The idea. of the board coolly telling tho man that he got his house built £60 cheaper than he had antieipated, and not taking any steps to see that the sub­<"Jlltra.ctnr was paid is inexcusable. The scope of the Bill ought to be widened and provision made for the exercise of greater care with regard to the cha.ra.ctorR of con­tractors to whom the erection of workers' dwellings is given, and on that ground I have very much pleasure in supporting the amendment.

Mr. BERTRA:\f (Jiarec) : I desire to say a word in support of the amendment. I am very stron,_:rly of opinion that the scope of the Bill should be widened. The original Bill was introduced for the purpose of enabling men with small incomes to get homes of their own; but tho men who ought to be assisted under the measure arc the very men who cannot get assistance, as, under present 'con­ditions, they cannot accumulate sufficient to buy an allotment of land. Consequently, they are debarred from any benefit under the Act. The Act ought to -be amended in such a way as will p<>rmit of landless men getting homes of their own, and if the Treasurer is sincerE'o in his stat<>rnent that he desires to benefit the men on the lower rung of the ladder, he will not hesitate to accept the amendment of th<' leader of the Opposition with a. view to widening the scope of the Bill. I am abo of opinion that the Act should be so amended that it will allow of persons earning more than £200-earning, say, £300-to obtain advances for the pur­pose of building dwellings of their own. One would think from the way in which the Treasurer speaks that the VVorkers' Dwell­ings Board is a. philanthropic or benevolent institution which dispenses favours broad­cast. It is nothing of tho kind. The making

1914--Q

of ath-an<'es for the.• erection of wo"rkers' dwellin~s is a busim'% proposition, and a good b~siness proposition from the point of view of tho Government.

An Ho:\OGRABLE MEMBER : And a. good one for the ptople concerned.

Mr. BERTRAM: I admit that it is a good one for the people concerned ; but, at tho same time, I think the scope of the .Act might be widened. The Go>ornment. are ,ad­vancing money at 5 per cent. for ":hwh tfo'ey arc only paying 4 por cent. There IS nothmg benevolent in that. Tho proposition is a good business proposition; the Go>ornrnont are !''Otting their pound of flesh, and they might v~ry well widen the scope of th1s anwnding Bill so as to extend tho benefits of i he Act to persons who cannot now take ;;dvantagc of it,1 provisiom. There is another direction in whi<:h tho GovernnH nt might ben<'fit persons who desire to. acquire dw~ll­ings of their own, and that 1s by supply1_ng thc'm with timber from the Government m1ll. I asked tho Premier a day or two ago if he was a." are of the fact that timber was being turned out bY tho Ipswich \York.hop Mill at from 7>'. to lOs. per 100 superficial fed le•-; than is eharg·ed by the Timber ::\f<;rchant,' Ason<'iation; and here I may mentwn that tho Commi .. sioner for Railways, in his report for last yc·ar, stated that pine wa' _turned out b,- the Ipswich \Yorkshop M1ll for 15s. 4d. p<>r l:\0 superficial feet as against £1 ls. charged by the Timber :Merchants' As>-ooia.tion, and hardwood for 13s. 9d. as against £1 charged by the ti'!lber merchanh The Commissionpr also pomted out that though that. mill had J:wen in _operation o::<ly two years 1t had pmd for Itself. Durmg those two 'vears the mill turned out 4.684,076 superficial 'ket of sawn timber. so th~t at a savin1~· of Gs. per 100 a. total savmg of £14.522 was effected. If a. man desires to build a home for himself, why not supply him with timber for that purpose. and thus enable him to do so ol; a reduced cost? I hope the day is not far di_stant when ~he Government will see the w1sdom of domg that. Now, I wish to refer to another matt~r. The oth<'r day a. case carne under my notwe '·1 which a. gentleman that I know made

<pli<:a.tion for an advance of £300 un?er tho \YorkPrs' Dwellings Ad. The apphca.­tion was approved, and tenders w<;re called in the ordinal'"; wav. Later on th1s gentle­man was advised that tenders had been re­<:eived. and that one was £509 lOs., another £514 lOs .. a third £535, a fourth £539. and a fifth £546 lOs. Afterwards he found that tend<'rs verY much lower than anv of those had been received, and he went to' the board and inquired if such was the case. The answer was in the affirmative. and he asked why he had not been advised that thooe tenders had been recei>ed, and he was told that the tenderers were not known to the boa1·d. One man tendered to do the work for £390 and another for £423; yet the lowest tender submit.ted to the applicant for the ndvancc "as £509 lOs. ; no less than £119 higher than one of the tenders snbrnitte_d. \Yhat was the result? . The man wac~ so dis-

satisfied with the whole thing [7.30 p.m.] that he withdrmv his application

and got the man who tendered at £390 to do the job, and !t was do::'e to h~s entire satisfaction. There IS somethmg radi­cally wrong with the working of a board that rloes that kind of thing, and the whole Act badly needs amending. It wants widening,

Mr. Bertram.]

226 Workers' Dwellings Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

".nd I eincerely hope the Secretary for Public Worb will RCP !it to widen the ,·cope of the proposed amending Bill in the direc· tion sought by the loader of the Opposition.

The TREASGRER: The rc'marks of tlH_' hon. :i:Eernbcr \\llo has just rc::.uniCcl h:·d ;,eat, probably in :-:cnne llll''-LSUl'l' are COll­

nec-:_eJ \vith ,the· cap.-• r·efcn·ed to ty t:w !1011. nlt~lnlJc\~ for Fol:·;jtude Yall('y, y, hie\ shoY- s the rea "On why per:1aps l'Xtr<:111t' c~_l'e was taken in conlH'ction , ith L_(~ par­ticular case to which the hon. member has referred. There has been in the pa~t a tendency on the part of what one might call rnusl1room contrn-dor'" to tench r and tlo pre0iseh- what the hon. member for Fortitude V allev has referred to-leave their sab­contradors in a hole. There has been a very gr<mt danger with regard to that, and the result has been that proba[,ly the plumber, the painter, or someone else has not been paid. I eay at once, in reply to the hon. member who has just resumed his stat, that the case to which he refers is absolutely new to me and I nhould ""rtainly hc<itate about ex)WC" ,ing an opinion with regard to it until I have made inquiries ; but there has been a tendency on the part of some people who thought they could carry out a contract­who have f,Ot cr0dit, unfor-tullatc~y, and 1n one or t" o cases have been able to get sub­contractors to come along and have then left them in tho lurch. Consequc,ntly, in­:;tructions \VCTO i:-,~llc'd bv m; ,.;eli' that tho greatest carE' should be ex8rcieed before «cceptinv, t::ndcrs, e~opecially from people who were not known. It may be there is some C<Jnncr-tion between the c'ascs to which the hon. member for Fortitude V allev and the hon. member for :Ylar<•e have refc>rred. However, I shall be only too plea or d to make the neces,ary inquiries and v hen the Bill is at itA second reading stac'e I shall be very please-d to give the fullest infor­mation possible to the House. The hon. member for Fortitude Valley has made a o,tatement-I am sure no oi1e will for a 1non1ent accuse tho hon. rnmnber of n1aking a etat•,mcnt that he did not belienJ to be truc~but I am ,;till quite bare that his <Statement is not strictly ;,crurate.

:'vir. BoW)IAN: In what "ay '?

The TREAPGRER: I do not for c 'e rnoniHlt a;;,·:,umr: that tho hon. men1bor 1\~ould Ytilfullv mak-3 a staten1ent ~,yhich i·.~ not true, J)uL I an. sure he has not gripped all the facts in connec:ion with the £60 to >vhich he referred.

Mr. BowMA};: I have the hots from the ~ccret:' ry of your board.

The TREASGRER: Frequent!.,- it hap­pem that people will tender; m some casi~s I hz-tVP kno\vn "\Vhere a n1an has J:Ot timber from a mill and bv and by .the miller hiis cnme along and caid " Look, John Brown m; cs me so much on this timber and he has ch·,',red out." As a math r of fact 'he Government do not know the tiElh,,· seller at all in tho nmtter. The policy pursued by the department always ha~ b<'On that someone else should take up the work. an'!, if there is anythine; over after· tho " rk i' completed, the balance is 1 :md< ·l. pro ratft, to tho inter,w,ted parties, alway" ,ecing thect th,, man for whom the hou"" is being erected dor,, not have to pay mure th;m the contract price.

Mr. B?W'IA}; : In the case brought under your notice the man has never been naid.

[Mr. Bertram. ,

The TREASURER: The hon. tnem­ber still, I am sure, has only got a portion of the facts, and I shnll be quite prepared, when a fav~mrable ?ppor­tunity offer.,-I have not the mformatwn to­night---to place befc re the hon. member all the facts as far as I know them, and I know the hon. member will be quite content with my statemPnt. As :Hinister in ch~rge of this particular department I have no sympathy for anvone of that kind and no one will g('t a!!~ Runnort who tric-~ to do a disho1:ec,~ or di,l1ono~;able thing by the man w~o .toils hard in the constructiOn oJ: these bmldmgs.

::\Ir. B0W~!A:<:: They have.

The TREL\SURER: I am quite pre­pared to udmit that there have been iwlated Ci1S8fo but when it is remem­bered that about 3,000 dwellings have been erectc>d under the \Yorkers' Dwelling, ~'\ct it will be readily understood that there mu.~.t be some danger of this kind of thing creeping in, but in all ca '~s it has been most jealously gu:trded agair;st. I can only say again that I 'hall i'"O mto the matters re­ferred to and when we come to tho second reading I shall be pleased to .give the neces­sary information. I should IrJ;;e to reply to some of th<> arguments used 1n support of thi_; amendment. The hon. member who has just resumed his seat said that. he .would like to sec> the scope of the Bill widened so that the man with a family might i;'"et the bcndit of the' Act. I say at onee that the man with a familv has got the benefit of the Ac L. There is "abundant evidence of that all round the city of Brisbane. The hon. memb<'r refr,rred, in rather flippant tones, to the fact that money costs 4 _l)Cl'

cent. and tho'e who have erected dwellmg• were charged 5 P''r cont. The hon. member is not wrong in regard to the 5 per cen~. but he has absolutely forgotten that there IS a cerhin amount of expense constantly going on in oonnection with supervision, and I suppose it will be admitted that th~re is some slight risk. I say most emphatrcally that the pb)ple who have come under th0 \Yorker:/ DF_:ellin£,.3 _\rt an: som(' of tLe h:tppic,,t people. not onlc· in the city of Brisbane but throughout Queensland.

Mr. RYAN: \Ye want to extend that happi­ne~,t'.

The TREA SGRER : It is all very well for the han. membtlr to ~ay that he wants to extend It. As a matter of fact, is it not perfE'ctl v true that when this Bill was brought in sorrE members of the hon. mem­b<>r's party tried to block it?

0HOSITIOX MEMBERS: :i\'o, we did not. I•Ir. BoW)!AN: A deliberate mif•:tatement.

The TREASURER: Ag-ain we are told that "'e arc not doing th~ best we can for the people. The evidence is in the homes which have bc,,n erected and which are being ered0d to-day in Queensland a' a rnult of this very liberal mPasur<', and the people appreciate to the fullNt extent what has bern done, and that is why han. mom­ben opposite want to try and belittle this Act.

Mr. RYAN: \Yill you namo any member of this party who tried to block the Act?

The TRE_\SURER: Dealing now with other references that were made. The hon. member for Maranoa ertid that rents would go UIJ'. What ha• been the effect? Let anyone go through the

Workers' Dwellings Acts [16 JULY.] Amendment Bill. 227

·statistics of Queensland carefully and com­pare them with the st'ltistics of ;,ther States and they will find that the rents here are lower than they are in the other States. They are lower lwcause the Government took tim.e h~ the fon;olock. and made the provision which IS made m this 111£asure. That is the sole reason.

c\lr. HYAC'I': Thztt is humomus.

The TRE~\SDRER: The hon. member A:lob not regard it as humorous because the people outside know who are bene­fiting in 1hi.~ matter. Reference has been made tu tho houses erected in I\ew .South \Vales. Can any hon. member here •.ay ihat the houses erected in I\ ew South \Y ales are erected on anything like as libo:ral h .. nns .us the hou·es erectGd here under tho terms offered by a Liberal Government. Thev cannot, and, .as a 1nattor of fact, so ~uccesS­ful has it been here, that other Governments have •-cnt for a copy of it in order that thov ~nay irnitatr it. One other point was raised m fav'Jur of enh'"t11i1.ing this particular amendment-and that was that it might be poe,ible for old buildings to be bought.

Mr. RYA~: Xot cld onm'. The TREASrRER: I venture to say

that if the door were opened to the Luymg of second-hand building,, it would open one of the mo,.t dangerous doors that could be O!lenec'l in Quc0nsl-and. I take it that one of the things we ought to do for a man who i·J unablo to look after himself is to see that he gets a now home and a home that will ["ive .him catisLction when he gets 1t. And that IS what hac happened here in Queensl-and, and it seems to me that mem­bers opposite are disappointed because the Bill has bee:' so 7rc_at " sue-t·,.-,, and they 11 nnt to behttle 1t m some wav. I nPed 1lardlc Sa_~" before resuming my \,Cat that there is not tho slightest intentio'n of accept­irw the amendment.

:\Ir. P AY~E (Jiit,,hcll) : I think it is a pit:-- that the Tr£.tsurer did not co•Jfine him­self to facts or make some aunr.J.te sbte­ment when he was ilpeaking. I think the hon. gentleman wandered all over the place. First of all he Etarh·d iu tell the House that menL hers on this side onpo od the measure when it wac. before the llouse. :!'\ow, evorv fair­minded man knm" that that is not co1;rect.

:\Ir. GRAC\T: What did :·ou do? Mr. PAYNE: \Ye did not oppose it. We

tried to do then what w-2 are trying to do now. And unlc's the Government <an see their wn ,. to accept this amendment, moved l1y the leader of the Oppo;;ition, then thev will be a lonrr way behind Governments o'f other States in !er;iRl••.tion in reference to this mntter. In Xew South \V-ales thev have a Bill under which a man can even buv· a home. If this amendm0nt were carried. it "auld make it po.-cibl,, for every man, 'not only the one who owned a piece of land. but anv man who sn.w a phc-z> th"t would snit him and who was in a position to pav the Government b•· instalments, to r-et th; Go­vernnw:Jt to advance th0 money to buv it for him. They will oren to lm m·er a rn~rtgag-e in 1'\e'.V South \Vales, and the!- will improve a houRe that has not be•·n built under the ;-\('t. 1 h:yn• had a fe'\v very Q"laring- ca~\f'':l m the 'lYIIkhell electorate. The Trc,1R'ICGr tolcl '" th,•.t this Bill has done some good.

The TREA~TJRER: ~\ very great deal .of good. 11 r r. H-re\TER: \V c arc not denying that. ::\fr. BERTRA)I: We grant that.

Mr. PAYNE: I am prepared to F»y that the rnca~ure ha, relieved a good mal!y people, but when the Treasurer ris• s in his place and tries to make this Hcou.sc believe that the building of 2,000 houses-and l am doubt­ful if 2,C:OO houses June bcn1 builL under the .._-\ct--i~ going to relie' u the h1gh rent"', I say time that is all moon,hi""· They have done a little bit, but it is a mighty little bit that the Goycrnrnent ha ,~e donu so far as keepinr: do\vn high renLJ i ., concerned. I know of a case in Longrcach vvhe:rc a u1an had a very decent hGu,.e built. 1-lis fan1i y were incrca3illb', and he applied to tho Go­' -:rrnnPnt for Uf'<;;,i·stance to builJ an addition to his house. His m·xt-door nPigh; ,,m h d an ::tllotmcnt, and he got a house built under the Act, but this ma.n, who had a house valued at £180, could not gpt the benefit of the Act at all. Do not hon. nu mbcr, think th 't this a mendmcnt shonld be accepted if only for that particular rc\L,~··>a ·: Tlh' Go­vernment would not have loot anything. They would have got a'· security tho allotment and a building worth hom £17{) to £180, and the 111an only wantnd £120. I made inquirie• and I was told that it w-as outside the scvpe of tho Act, and that the Government could not possibly assist that man. I claim that the Government should accept the P.mcnd­nwnt and give help in cal:'es of that kind, where a man h-ad r,,Jt built under the Act, but where there was good security. I ha w• alwa0'S held that if vou are going to "''ist any man to get a home, it should be the man who has no land at all, beoauso, after all, unle"' you have a couple of allotments you caanot build in Brisbane. and if vou haye a ~OU[;1e or r; fe,v a1lotn1£ :·~t~. you can .. go to a bmlcling soeiCty and get a hon··<' built. A mPn "\Yho is in a mod0rah\ position. espcci­a!lv if lw has a iarge familv, and none of th~m \\ orkin;r, will not be a blo to buv land and, as it appears at plT''cnt. will ahv"vs b~ excluded from the benefih of the Act. • The Government have done a good deal. but if they accept this amendm•~nt they will be able to do a great deal more. They have not reduced rents.

Mr. TROcT: They have reduced rents.

Mr. PAYNE : Where?

Mr. TROuT: All ovN the suburbs. More houses are to let now than for two years.

Mr. PAYXE: I have be0n living around Brisbane for seven or eight year,, and I know just as much about hig·h rents as the hon. member for Enoggera.

;yir. TROUT : More.

Mr. PAY)JE: I do not know mor<> but I claim to know as much. And if he' says that, during the last five '·ears rc•nts have gone down ho is saying "hat is' not rorreet. Rents to-day in Brisbane and suburbs are at lc:tst 55 per C"'nt. higher than they were fi '• e years ago. And how in the nam:3 of common son'e can the operation of such a llleasure as this ha vo -any effect on the de­crease of rents? I say again that if the Government do not '•eccpt the amendment they arc not going to bring the .,Act up t~ d:•tc ot get into line with other States of the C'<Jmmomvealth.

:\h. GRX!'\T (F<hrop): I think that some mP·~.l·Pr< on the other ,,ide ar:' rnther short of rnemorv when they say th:1.t they favoured this Bill.

:VIr. HA:I!ILTOX: I have got "Hansard" here.

Mr. Grant.~

228 Workers' Dwellings Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill ..

Mr. GRANT: I have got a copy of " Hansard " here, too, and I am going to usc 1t, and also talk about it. If the late Government had anything to their credit the \Yorkers' Dwdlings Act was to their crc'dit.

.:VIr. HAli!ILTO~: This present Government? Mr. GRAK'.r: Most of them are members

of the prcs<:nt Government. Mr. IIAMILTOK: The Treasurer was not

there. Tho TREASuRER: But he placed it on more

liberal lines.

Mr. GRAKT: There has been no ::Ylinister who has been more humane and taken a great'," interest in tho working of tho _\ct than the present Troa,urer. I will say that for him, although I have had one or two occaf-ions to diJier from him in co ·mcLtion with it. But if any Act ha··· boncfited the workers especially, this Bill h.as dono >D. Ta~w th'.' Kew Zealand Act. Has that given satufachon? They have had to withdraw it and amend it. Take the case of New South \Vales. The Government there do not give a man the right to own his own land, but they have put up a subUl·b called Davevville where the men are merely tenants of . th~ Gowrnmcnt for the time being. Are they satisfied 1

Mr. BARBER: Very. Thoy have got the option to buy it.

Mr. GRANT : \Vhy then the ·deputation to Mr. Griffiths. the Minister for Works aeking him to roduco rents? They said that they \Yore paying far too much rent for Government houses. and to a Labour Govern­ment at that. 'What was tho answer that Mr. Griffiths made? He said that the rent tho tenants were paying was not payin"' interest and redemption on the money th~ Government had spent. (Government laughter.) Here on the one hand we have tenants occupying these houses saying that they are rack-rented by a Labour Govern­ment.

Mr. COYNE : They did not say the.t. They could not be rack-rented if it did not pay interest and redemption.

Mr. GRAKT: The tenants said that they v;cre rack-rented, and were paying too much rent for their houses, although Mr. Griffiths, a member of the Government, said they were not paying interest and redemption on the money spent. In Queensland we have adopted a different metho-d altogether. We say to the man who has an allotment of land, "\Ve will help you to get your own house."

Mr. O'SCLLIVAN: What about the man who has got no land?

Mr. GRANT: We cannot meet him at the preRent time. This Act go"" a long way as it is. If a man has an allotment of land, the Government will lend him the money, and give him twenty years to pay it off at the rate of 5 per cent. While members opposite are looking up " Hansard" to see what mem­bers on this side said when the Bill was first introduced, may I be permitted to quote from some of the speeche•' delivered by hon. members opposite on that occasion. For instance, we had the. hon. member for Forti­indo Valley, the then leader of the Labour party, saying-

" This is not for the benefit of the wage-earners generally at e.ll. (Hear, hear !) This is merely to tickle the ears

[Mr. Grant.

of the workers, and is very much li~e­that proverbial bunch of carrots that the hon. gentleman has held out so often, before the people of Queensland."

Is that supporting the Bill? Mr. RYAN : Of course. He wanted to widen.

it. (Government laughter.)

Mr. GRA"'T: Then my colleague, Mr. Adamson, Paid on that occasion-

" I will never abuse any man on that side of the House in a personal way, but I will try in every way I can to defeat them on their poiicy, particularly when I think it is a pseudo-democratic policy, a policy which tends to rehabilitate the Philp part) and makes people outside believe that they have become demo­cratic.

"iVlr. Coyne: Knocking ·~. hole in the Labour drum.

'' ::\ir. ADA:USON: Yes, knocking a hole in the Labour drum. Stealing the fi1<> from the Labour altar in order to light up the lire>--(lond langhter)-·stealing it, as Lowell said, to light up the martyr faggots round the prophets of to-day. That is what the Hon. the Premier is seeking to do. I wish to say that I .am going to oppose the Bill; and if it is poc,sible to knock the Government out on this Bill, I will be delighted to do so, and send the Pn,mier into political oblivion, and prepare the way for a better Administration."

(Government laughter.) Take the speech of Mr. Lennon, the deputy leader of the Labour party. Mr. Lennon went on to say-

" The poet tolls us that ' a rose by ·any other name,' etc. This Bill is de,ignated a ~"orkmen's Dwellings Bill, with a smoothness which is worthy of praise to" people who desire to delude the workers. of Queensland as far as possible, and make them believe that this is the real democratic party in Queensland. I think the Bill would be better named were it designated 'A Land Shark Encourage­ment Bill.' "

Here are the view; of three very important members of t"he Labour party-the leader, tho deputy leader, and my colleague, Mr. Adamson, who is also an important man in that partv. I think he represented Mary­borough ~t that time. This Act, which has given so much satisfaction throughout Queensland, and w.hich is so highly praised by workmen generally, has been l'O successful that the Labour party say, "It was our Bill. \Ye introduced it."

Mr. BOW}IAN: ~'e never said anything of the kind.

Mr. GRAXT: The Labour party reke credit to themselves for having introduced the Bill, whereas by their own utterances we s<'e that th<'Y oppoe<8d it. Mr. Adamson went so far as to sav that if he could knock the Govern~ent out on it he would do so. The only objection I han got to the Ac~ is that I think it should be more decentrahsed. In the out;ide towns the applications are not readily dealt with as they are in Brisbane. For instance, if a man in Brisbane has an -allotment of land, and wishes to get a house· erect<'d on it, he can go into the office and· see 200 plans from which·he can pick a suit­able one for his house. But if an application

Workers' Dwellings Acts [16 JuLY.] Amendment Bill. 229

is made from Rockha~pton, the applicant has to send his plan to Brisbane, and a con­siderable time elapses before the matter is fixed up. I ·would suggest to the Treasurer that in such towns as Rockhampton, Mary­borough, Townsville, and places like that, a number of plans might be sent there with an .officer in charge to deal with them. This is going to becDme one of the biggc·st depart­menh in the State, because everywhere men arc t.aking a,dvant.age of it. And why shouldn't they? They get their own houses, not like the tenants at Daceyville, whD are rack-rented bv a Labour Government. Those who buy hou;es under this syotem in Queens­land pay for it in the form of rent, and very light rent it is. I think that the State has <>very right to be satisfied with the working of the Workers' Dwellings Act.

Mr. BARBER (Bundaberg): The hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat has simply reiterated what many members on that side have said from time to timE', They have endeavoured to prove to the public outside that this party opposed this Bill.

Mr. BRIDGES : So you did. Mr. BARBER: This party advocated the

principle of workers' dwellings long before any Government took it up in Queensla-nd. All I can say about this measure is that the Government have made a mess of it, as they always do whenever they attempt to administer the Labour platform. What this party did wa& this : we took up a certain amount of inm~e in discussing the measure, because it was an important measure, as we wanted the Gover.nment to make it far­reaching so far as the interests of the workers are concerned. " Hansard " will prove that. The opposition of this party to the Bill was because we wished to make it possible for the landless man to get a house. We tried to make it apply to men living on miners' homestead leases, and that practically took up most of the time. I contend that this party took up a perfectly logical and proper .attitude on that occasion, and that was proved when the Government came along in a couple of years with an amendment . on the lines which we a;dvocated when the Bill was first introduced. (Hear, hear!) ·whether the Government get any kudos for the Act or not, they always fish Jar i• at election time. As a matter of fact, a little booklet was issued and cir­·culated amongst tens of thousands of ,elec­.tors during our last State election, saying ·that they were responsible for the intro­duction of the measure. It was not true that some of the members of the present •Government were responsible for it, because they were not in the Cabinet at that time. I think so hig-hly of this measure myself that I intend to support the amendment. In Bundaoerg we have somewhere about 40 houses built under the provisio.ns of this Act. I advocate now what I advocated when the amendment of the Act was passed. I advocated that the provisions

.of the Bill should be widened to enable •OWnPrs of small houses to borrow from the

Government so as to extend the [8 p.m.] pr<•perties they at present hold.

We would have just as good .a security from these people ; in fact, a better security. Then, on the other hand, I think the provisions of the Bill should be widened to meet the case of those men who are not able to buy allotments up to £50 or £60 in

·;value, or at a higher figure than that. I had

a letter yesterday from a m~n who is very anxious to get a house. H1s allotment 1s only valued at £20, plus the fencing that he will put on it. which will perhaps cost £10. The advance which the board will make to him will not be enough to build a dec.ont house. This man is one of the best citizens in our community. Th<'re arP a large number of worthy citizens in the different towns and centres of the State who are in exactly the same position. It takes a considerable time for a man with a family to sa vc up £50 or £60 with which to buv an allotment on which to obtain the full advance which the board is prepared to give. This case- .is typical of dc·zens of other cases where assistance would be sought from the board if the Hill was amended to meet such conditions. The han. member for Fitzroy and the Treasurer re­ferred to the wonderfully liberal provisions of this Act. This is not by any means the moc~t liberal Act of this charaeter in opera­tion in tho Commonwealth. The \Vest Aus­tralian Act is far more lib,cral in its pro­visions than what the Queensland one is. I hope the Treasurer will reconsider the somewhat forcible and emphatic ultimatum he delivered just now, when he said that he did not intend to widen the 'cope of the Bill. I have had a great deal to do with getting applications filled in for advance" from the board; in fact, I think I have about ten in hand just now. I can assure the han. gentleman that he would receive. the tha.nks of workers, especially of those who are in a much less fortunate posi­tion than those who are able to invest in an allotment costing £50 or £60, by widening the scope of the Bill. T~e han. mem~er. for Fitzroy referred to h1s decentrahsatwn, and I think that is a good sugges­tion. I know that a tremendous amount of delay is .caused to men in outsi?-e. parts in getting th01r advances. \Vhether 1t IS caused bv a congestion of work, or the staff of dTaftsmen is too small, I do not know. The bon. gentleman should ac.cept the s.uggesti~ms which are made from th1s s1de, w1th a v1ew t" making t.he provisions of the Bill much wider than theJ are at the present time.

Mr. HAMILTON (Gregory): The hon . member for Fitzroy read some extracts from a speech of the then lea-der of the Opposi­tion, Mr. Bowman, and tried to show that he was opposied to this measure, but he only read extracts of a portion of the speech which suited his purpose. The reason why Mr. Bowman, who was then leader of the Opposition, was opposed to the narrowness d the measure, was simply because it only applied to per;,ons who were the owners of freehold. In the mining clistricts such as Charters Tower&, Mount Morgan, and Gym pie, where miners' homesteads are situated, the working men could not take advantage of the Act. Th·3 portion of the speech which the han. member for Fitzroy did not read was this-

" There are certain towns in Queens­land which could not possibly be brought within the operations of the Bill-Mount Morgan, Charters Towers, Gyrr.pie, Ravenswood, Croydon. None of the min­nig centres which came under the Mining Act of Queensland could be brought under the operations of this measure.

* * * * * " I agree with the principle, but I say

that the Bill is not sufficiently broad. The hon. gentleman is confining it to the man who has an allotment of ground,

Mr. Hamilton.]

230 Workers' Dwcllinvs Acts [ASSE::.\'l:DLY.] Amendment Bill.

whatever the value of that allotment may be. It may be worth only £50. Suppos· ing a man living in the hon. gentleman's own electorate of Enoggera had an allot­m<ent vaiued at £50, and he wanted an advance of £300, would that value of £50 be satisfactory to him, seeing that he can onlJ get an advance up to 15s. in the £1.'-

The -whole ol.ject of the Opposition at that tnne ;vas to try and broaden -the scope of ~he Brll, and although the Treasurer is tak­mg a good deal of the credit to himself for it he had nothing to do with it as he was onh; ~ pl·ivato me-mber in the Ho~se at that time. l,f I am -not rr.i'•tliken, when the Bill went tnrough the House, the hon. <rentleman was sitting in Opposition. b

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS; He was ;itting behind the Government.

Mr. HAJ\HLTO~: \Veil, he was not a Mini,ter at that time.

Mr. Ht:NTER: Read thG li,;t of the names. Mr. HA::YIILTON: The Treasurer who is

to, king all the cr0dit, had nothino· to' do with tl_He introduction of the measure." The oppo­sition of the hon. memLer for Fortitude V<tlley to the Bill was simply because it was too narrow; thv-t it \1 as confined to the men who owned a freehold. There arc thou·.;ands of \rorking nl('ll 1vho are not ablo to own a fr< ehokl, and at that time there were thoub:mds of worki,w men on the different minir1g field_, o£ th,, Shte who were outside th? provisions of th., measure. I say that t}us party were all right in trying to broaden the ':cope of the _\ct so as to make it apply to tho"~ -who n·1uind the assistance which the Bill i!ltendvd to give. I do not think anyone >vi!! r'eny that this Act has been a ho,.m to a great mar1y people, but I think that by widoninr' ito scope we can make it a benefit to .a greater number of people. I do not see why a mun should have to own a freehold. If the Government had Crown land, why cannot they asoist a man to erect a cottage on a portion of it? \Yhv cannot they purchase some of the big areas of land around the city, and do a, they did in New South \Yalec-, in Dacr-yvi1Je,

Mr. KF1i~EL~: That w<ts too dear. Mr. HAMIL TO~: I am not informed on

that. I did not go to S<>e them, but I am told they were good houses, and the} had to charq-e a good rent in or<ler to get interest Oio tho money. I went round Darling H<tr' bonr, where the Government have erecte-d a lot of workmen's habitations -at what they ca_1l the Ro<;k~. They hm·e _been doing away wrth old bmldmr;s and erectmg a lot of work­men's hal:Jitation··, which are a great boon to the clase o£ workmen -:yhich it is intended to be1wfit-those who arc working on the wharver, A man with a familv o£ six or sewn childr.>n, e'en if he has' £300 per annum, after he has fed. clothed, and edumtc>d tho:o children, will be· a Ion"' time pavin" off a little bit of a home but ';;, man with an income of £300 cannot 'take advan­tage of the Act at all. I think the .\ot should be 6Il1<'ndnrl so as to include men "\\ ith in­ccimes of £300.

Mr. MORGAX: That would include members of Parliament.

Mr. HA"IILTOX: It would apply to mem­bers of Parliarnenf, and there <tre member' of Parliament viho cannot get a home for themselV('S. \Yo -are not all like the hon.

[1lfr. Hamilton.

wemb0r, who has been, perhaps, fortunate. I know many men with £300 a year whom it­would take a long time to get a home together. I think the scop<:\ of the Bill should be widened so as to ap]1ly to the man­who has not got a freehold. There -arc many plares within oa"y reach of the city, and near the rail"ay, where the Government could acquire blocks of land and assist such men to get homos there, instead of having to pay private landowners a big price for land before thev are able to build a house under tho provisi'ons o£ tho \Yorkers' Dwellings Act. There is no m'' waiting until the Bill is­introduced before '"" raise thi' qu<">tion. If the ::\Iinister is willing- to acsist the m<tn who does not own a freehold, then he will agree to widen the >.cope of the order of leave. Vve do not want to take away any credit from tho GovPrnm('nt for what they are ·doing. The .-\ct has been of benefit, but I am sure it, benefits could be ext.,nded fivefold with­out imposing any undue strain on the Troo­sury. As to land bcjn;:; cheap in Brisbane,, considering the <'lass of hoYels in which many of our )Woplc hC~ ve to live, I think land is verv dear. In tho "ulmrbs of s, dnev and ::\;lelbo'urno you will not see the dirty 'slums that you see round Brisbane, though the houses may not ha,·e as much land as here.

Jlilr. KESSELL: Nonsense! The SPEAKER : Or·der ! Mr. HA:\HLTOX: 'The hon. member­

thinks he has got '" monopdy of all the sense­in the House. I woulcl like to see the­:Minister make the Bill apply to the man who is not able to ,c,cquire a fn·ehold. 'l'he· average working 1nan canr;J)t taffor.d to pay tho price that is a~ed for an allotment, 1et a1one C'rect a house_: and, if the :Minister is so anxiou,.; to fi '='; ist t~h~ "\vorking n1an, he ·will accept the amendment.

The SPEAKER : I think the debate is­g•-lting somewhat out of hand. The principle of the IV01:kors' Dwellings ,\ct is not at stake. The question u'ndor discussion is the proposal to widen the scope of tho Bill, and I would ask hon. mPmb£rs to confine them­selYes entirelv to the amendment. Hon. members on b'oth coides have been allowed to am-wer each other, but I think it is about time thai t-he debate should be narrowed­dm' n to the amendment.

Mr. WI~STANLEY (Queenton): No hon. mPmber on this side ins any objection to the Bill itself, or to the working of the Act. We­all recognise that it ha' been <t boon to a. large ntnnber oi people. but it does not follow that it could not he made still more­useful and bPneficiaL I certainlv think there is room for wiclcning the scop,; of the Bill, and for discu,,ing- eome thingB which will not be d<•alt with in the BilL It has been stated pretty freely that the de;1artment has favo:uites among the contractors, whilst other contractors cannot get a job from the denartment at all. \Vhc1t the Minister said. with reference t'' contractors may be per­fectlv true, hut I know of one in:,tance in which j tlst the opposite of what has been stated her2 to-ni!Yht occurrBCl. In the event of tenders being callnd, the highest tenders have been refused, and a tender accepted at a pric<> at whi<i< the contractor could not make it pcy, Then, in ref.2rer1ce to delays. taking place, &, great manv people-particu­larly when the_,. have been' paying rent-are anxious to get into a home of their own as­quickly as they can, but there is IUl· doubt

Stamp Act Amenament Bill. (16 JULY.] Stamp Act Amendment Bill. 231

there has been a good deal of delay in a great many instances. In quite a variety of ways the Act could be amended so as to increase the bcnr:lits that it confers on p€ople. Tho Government are acting wisely in propos­mg to amen~ the Act in regard to inSiirance, partiCularly 1f the amendment will save the reople 1milding house-s undP:· the Act trouble and expnnse, but in quite a numbtr of wavs that _it is not permissible to allude to just now lm)n·ovement• could be ouado. There is no doubt that for even house erectel under the Workers' Dwellin;;; Act two or three 1.re being put up by private enterprise but in other places in Queensland, where' land is cheap, not a solitary building is being put up unckr the Act. I think the amendment goes in the right direction, and the Minister might very well aci:ept it.

Question-That the words proposed to be omittc d stand part of the q ue:-tion-put; and tho House divided:-

AYES, 30. Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. P.

Barnes, 'vV. H. Blair Bouchard

, Bridg~s Caine

, Corser, B. H. , Corser, E. B. C.

Crawford Denham

, Douglas , Forsyth

Grant , Grayson

Mr. Gunn , Kessell ,, Luke

~bckintosh Morgan Paget Prtrie Roberts Somerset Stevens

,. Stodart Swayne Tolmie Trout Williams

Tellers: Mr. B. H. Corser and Mr. Kessell.

NoEs, 18. Mr. Barber Mr. Land

Bertram "

Larcom be Bowman

" May

" Coyne "

McCormack

" Fihelly .,, O'Sullivo.n Gillies

" Payne

Hamilton "

I\yan Hunter

" Theodore Kirwan ,. Winstanley

Tellers;: Mr Barber and Mr. Larcombe.

PATRS.

Ayl1 ~--:\1r. Archm·, 111'. Philp, 11r. 1ralker, :J.Ir. White; Mr. Bell, and. Mr. )!~wkay.

Xoe.s- Mr. t1urph~r, Sfr. FoleY, J'fr. Hu:x,ham, Mr. Adamson, ~ir. Lt·nnon, and ::\1r. Gilday.

Resolved in the affirmative. Original question put and passed.

ST~\MP ACT AMENDMEXT BILL. I~ITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­~TRU<:;TION (Han. J. W. Blair, Ipswich), m movmg-

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itBelf into a Committee-. of the ·whole to consider of the desirable­nos• of introducing a Bill to further amend th'l Stamp Act of 1894 in certain particulars,''

said: I gather that one of the motives for the loader of the· Opposition c;J.lling " XDt formal " to this motion was to ascertain what the Bill provides. The Bill provides for an arr.endment in 'the schedule to the Stamp Act. First of all it provides that agreements made between emplovers and err.ployet"+, and practically all agreements under the \Yorkl'rs' Comppn ,atiDn ~let, eh,c, 11 be exempt from stamp duty. That is to apply tc the pr','"""t \Yorkers' Compensation Act and to any other Act in substitution for it,

the object being to free from stamp duty ngreements t:nder which compensation is paid or secm·ed. The amendment has to be made in this way b2cause the schedule which exempts certain documents from the pay_, ment of stamp duty is part of the Rtamp Duty Act of 1894.

Mr. RYAN: Will it make any alteration '"ith re;~;ard to receipts for wages?

The SEC!RETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: Tho present law exempts hom stamp dut:-' " all receipts or discharij<'S given by any seaman, labourer, or memal servant for the- payment of wages," and instructions have been given that the most liberal construction is to be placed o,n the term "labourer."

Mr. THEODORE: I de,;ire to speak briefly en this matter. I think the hon. gentleman might allm',' the sc0pc of the Bill to be broad­ened so that additional amendments might bo made in the schedule to the Stamp Act e'\C­emrJting ep,,cified classes of wor)<men from the payment of atamp duty on rece1pts for wage3. '!'his matter was ventilated last session after instructions were given by the Tr<:asury requiring a more strict observance of the schedule. Those instructions practically laid down a new iPterpretation of the schedule, a'1d a conciderable number of workmen who had previously been exempt from stamp dutv on receipts for wages were called upon to stamp their receipts. The stamp duty is Cf rtainly not e. very great tax on fortnightly wages, but it i0 a direct tax whwh Dught not to exist. It is a paltry tax. &tnd I do not think it was ever intended to be applied in that way. . In interpr,~tin;; ~he t+ rm " 1 _,,bonrer or rr.omal servant, I thmk all unskilled labourers should be classed as labourers but, unfortunatelY, that has not been the 'case. The: interpretation placed on the term bv the TrBasury Department seems to me to be a very arbitrary one which simply exempts a certain class of labourers, and not all unskilled workers. In my opinion we might make provision to exempt all work­men from the payment of duty on receipt of wag-es. Small though the tax is, it is a very irritatin!" one, and I think we should wipe it out altogether. I move as an amend­n:ent that the words " in certain particulars" be omitted with the view of inserting the words " and by Pxempting from stamp duty all r<)~cipts am1 discharges given by any pN­son for the pH:nr,ent of wag-es and in othn· particulars." \Vhen we g-o into Committee on the Bill a specific amendment can be moved making it clear what class of labourers shall hE' exempt. It may be urged that Persons in the rec0ipt of salaries above a certain amount should not be exempt, and that matter can bl' con-ick·rcd. I hone that the :\lini,,tc>r "ill accept this amendment, so that we rr.ay have an onnortunitv of submitting an amendment providin!" for the exemption of wages from stamp duty.

Mr. RYAN: I second the amendment to broaden the scope of the OrdPr of Lea. ve, so that when we g-et into Committee on the Bill amendments rr.av be movc,d in the direction indicated by the' bon. member for Chillagoe. \ think we n:ight go even further than the hon. member suggr,,ts, and deal with the amount of stamn duty payable on receipts in C'onnection with Rome business tranflactinns. The schedule to the Act provides that on receipts for All and less than £2, the stamp dutv shall be 1d., on receipts for £2 and amounts less than £50, 2d., and so on. If the smaller amounts had further exemptions

Mr. Ryan.]

232 Stwmp Act Amendment Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Stamp,Act Amendment Bill.

lc!nd a higher stamp duty charged on the larger amounts, it would meet

l8.30 p.m.] with the approval of a majority of this House, and certainly of

u. majority of the people of Queensland who are concerned in corr.dnercial transactions. l trust the acting Attorn.,y-General will a~-~·0pt this amendment, because as he is aware, the interpretation that has been placed t•J judic:tl decioion on the word "labourer " m the schedule of the Stamp Act is a very narrow definition, and all kinds of labourers s:1ch as butcheh, railway workers, and others: have to stamp receipts for their wages. In­deed, there was quite a large batch of prose­cutions during _th<J cour'-e of last year because the amount or stamp duty was not placed upon recdipts for the payment of wages. To my mind that is a hardship that ought to be removed from the workers and those who are in receipt of ·wages, and the burden placed on those who are better able to bear it. If hqn. members will approach the rc;atter fairly and impartially, as they ought te do, so long· as there is no threat made that it will be taken as a no-confidence motion, there may be some possible chance of getting the amendm<Jnt through when mak­mg these alterations in the existing Act, which, I think, ought to be made.

Mr. HUNTER : I rise to support the amendment. It is not the first time I have referred in this House to the fact that the schedule in the Stamp Act presses heavil:v upon small traders. I think the House only wants to know what the schedule is to at once agree that that is correct. For instance, at the present time on amounts of £1 and less than £2, the duty is 1d. ; on amounts of £2 and less than £50, the duty is 2d. ; on amounts of £50 and under £100 the duty is 3d. ; and for every £100 or a fraction of £100 the duty is 6d. I have always held that this presses unduly upon the small trader. The butcher, the baker, the milk· man, the woodman, the small fruiterer, and the small grocer are all called upon to stamp almost every receipt they give with 1d. duty stamp, and consequently there is an undue tax being raised in that quarter, while the large commercial houses on amounts of £50 have only to pay 2d. That is altogether unfair, and I considered it un­fair when the amending schedule was in­troduced in 1901 or 1902. It seemed to me then that the Treasurer at that time, the late Mr. Cribb, was not putting the same amount of taxation on the trader who dealt in large figures as he was asking the small trader to pay. The House, when it is revis­ing the Stamp Act, would only be dealing out justice if it relieved these people of a certain amount of taxation. At that time the Treasurer may have found it necessary to impose this stamp duty, but it seems to me we should have an exemption up to £2, and then have a gradually progressing tax going up to 1s., if you like, for £50. At the present time if a trader accepts a pro· missory note for £50 he has to pay 1s. stamp duty, .and if he gives a receipt for that amount why should he not pay 1s. for it?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: I have listened very care­fully to what has been said in support of the amendment, and I think the action that has been taken arises from a misconception of what this motion reallv means. It is not contemplated at all by this motion to revise the schedule of the Stamp Act.

Mr. RYAN: We want to make it possible. [Mr. Ryan.

The SECRETARY FOR P"CBLIO IN­STRL;CTION: This motion is simply a ful­filment of the promise contained in His Ex­cellency's Speech that certain documents in connection with the \Vorkers' Compensation Act will be exempted from the payment of any duty whatever, and it is impossible to deal with a general r<Jview of the Stamp Act under a motion of this kind. \Vith regard to the amendment which would <Jxcmpt all wages, the leader of the Opposition knows that it would be impossible to conceive what the pa>cage of an amendment of that kind would really mean to the Trea,ury. He knmc,s ju,t as well as I do that it would b" an exc<lcdin~tly difficult thing to define what " wages" would include, to what it would applv, and if it were carried in the form of tl{e anwndment, it would be impoEoible to say what effect it would have upon the re­venue. \Vith regard to the smaller men­the labourer-I may say that the Government has not merely offered sympathy; it has car­ried ;ts sympathy out practically, because on the 27th November, 1913, this instruction was given to the Chief Commissioner of Stamps-

" I have the honour, by direction, to inform you that it has been decided to put the most liberal construction on the term "labourer" mentioned in the ex­emptions to receipts contained in the first schedule of the Stamp Act of 1894."

So that, although the legal interpretation of that term, upon which the Chief Commis­sioner of Stamps went, is a restricted and narrow one, that interpretation will not be acted on in the future. Those are the reasons why I cannot accept the amendment.

Mr. McCORMACK: I would like to point out that the instructions issued by the Go­vernment are not being carried out by their own departments, as the Railwa:}' Department ' are m<>king men in receipt of labourer wages put a stamp on receipts for their wages. I have in my possession some of the receipts, and the men were made to pay this stamp duty as late as March of this year, so I think there is some need for an alteration in the schedule of the Stamp Act. If the Premier will give us a promise that those labourers who are suffering under an in­justice-because it is an injustice-will not be called upon to pay the tax, no doubt the mover of the motion mav withdraw it. I think the instructions issued by the Cabinet are not being carried out. They are cer­tainly not being carried out by the Govern­ment themselves, who ought to be the first at any rate to carry out their own inatruc­tions, or else they are not sincere in their desire to relieve the wage-earner of this tax upon his wages.

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted (Mr. Theodore's amendment) stand part of the question-put; and the House divided:-

Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H.

Blair Bouchard

, Bridges Caine Corser, B. H.

AYES, 30. Mr. Gunn

Kessell Luke Mackintosh Petrie

, Morgan

, Corser, E. B. C.

., Paget Lieut.-C0l. TI ankin .lfr. SGmerset

Crawford Denham

, Douglas

, Stevens Rtodart

,. Swayne Tolmie Trout

Forsyth Grant Grayson

"Tellers: Mr. , Williams

Crawford and Mr. Rankin.

Address in Reply. [16 JULY.] Address in Reply. 233

NoEs, 18. Mr. Barber ::Ylr. Land

Bertram , Ln.rcombe " nowmn.n " :May , Coyne , , :McCormack , ]'iht>lly ,, O'.Sullivan

Gillies , Payne n Hamilton , Hyan

HuntC'r , Tht•odore ., Kirwan .. \Vinstanley

Telle~·s: Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Winstanley. PAIRS.

Ayes-Mr. Archer, ~Ir. Philp, ~Ir. Vl".tlker, ~Ir. White, lfr. Jlell, 'tnd :VIr. ~I•ekay.

Xot-:;1·-:l\Ir. ~Iurphy, ~lr. I~oi,~:·. ~rr. lluxham, ::ur. A•iamsmt, Mr. Lennon, and 1\Ir. Gilday.

R<•,olved in the affirmative. Original question put and pas• .. ed.

ADDRESS I~ REPLY. Rn~u~IPTION OF DEBATE.

Mr. WINSTA::'\LEY (Q~<£cnton): I dc"ire to mako a few ob:•l'rvati"ns on the Address in Hoply, and, in tho first place, I wish to ' dd my word of prais" to tho mover and H'conder for the W:J.Y in which they dis· charged thFir duties. \Yhat stru<ek me most about the two speechc, wa ·• the contrast between them. I listened with a good deal of interest to what might be culled the staid and stately, if not cold, and well-thought-out speech of the hon. member for Normanby, who found merely State matters too small for his comprehension, and so dealt not only with State affairs, but also with the affairs ·of the Commonwealth of Australia, no doubt berause he had seen service in the Common­wealth Parliament as well as in this. In its way it was a very fine deliverance. On the other hand, the speech of the seconder was full of vigour, full of vim, and certainly it was full of enthusiasm, and, no doubt, in its way it, too, was a very fine deliverance. ·what struck me about the speech of the 1lon. member for Drayton was that evidently :his practical experience and what he had seen of this State had led him on the path ·of pro~·ress much farther than his political theories admit. Certainly some of his state­ments, coming a> they did from a representa. iive of a farming constituency, were some­what of a revelation, and certainly he ex­pressed thoughts and ideas that did not find ·Pncouragement from the front Treasury h"nchcs. At any rare. they were his own, and they were deliverod with the usual vigour with which the hon. member for Drayton addre~ses the House. The hon. member for Chillagoe last night dealt with a question that has a good deal of applica­tion to the constituency that I represent, that is, the question of workers' compensa­tion. There is no doubt that the Act needs amending. It is well known to those who live in mining districts that it is lacking, like a great manv other Acts, in its compre­hension and application to those' for whose benefit it was passed. Whatever may be the <Jase in other towns and districts, it is a well-known fact that in many cases the costs are very heavy to those persons who have to ,..et ~ompcmation for th<>ir injuries, and cNtainly something might be done to reduce the cost to persons who have to apply to a magistrate and get an assesoment of com­pensation from him. Yesterday afternoon I gave notice that I would a:•k for certain information from the Acting Attorney­General in this. connection. One way in which I think the Act ought to be amended is in connection with the practice of paying .a weekly allowance to the injured men

who cannot afford to wait for a lump sum. l:nder the Act at the present time only half wages can be 11aicl to those who are injured. As full wages are only recovered to £2 a week. half wages would only come to £1 a v·cek. In a place like Charter:> Towe:·s £1 a week is nut sufficient to keep a man in food, let alom• rc·nt and other things. It ;,, neithf'r a fair 11or a reasonable amount to p:· y ;my man, and I think that at. least £1 lOs. or £2 per week should be paid. I think also t},at the injured individual should have the right to take a cnso to enurt, just tlw same as the• employei', At the present tim•· if an employ<'r likes to pay a we.ekly allvwan('\:'! hP ean do so as long a.:; he hkes, or if lw chooses he can take the case to court. Quit·J a number of people in Charters Towers have been the Yictims of tbo condi­t:ons under which they have had to work, vet they have no rcnh'dv b·-·cause the \Vorkers' CompHlsation Act 'docs not apply to them. For the last four or five years there ha 1e becm a number of victims to miners' phthisis, and they arc just as much victims to the c mdit.ions of the industry as thum who ur0 injured by accident. Some of those men linger for vears and they are unable to work, yet no' compensation what­ever is paid to them. In South Africa some time ago an Act was passed making such cases as these applicable to the \Yorker•' Compensation Act, and in that way men who are the victims of their surroundings obtain some relief. As the hon. member for Chil­lagoe pointed out, some different method should be adopted than that which prevails at present of making the tributers pay ls. a week to cover the insurance which the com­panies have to pay. While there might be something in the contention that the com­panies should not be called upon to pay it because thev make little profit out of the tributers, still the cost should not be im­posed on the tributers themselves. There is room for improvement there, and the pro­visions of the Act should be extended in the same way that other Acts have been ex· tended. We know that legislation has been passed through this House, but the .adminis­tration of that legislation has proved to be a failure. It can be truthfully said of this Government that they have done those things whi~h they ought not to have done and they have left undone those things which they should have done. The discussion which tooi{ place on the Sugar Acts passed last session shows that the administration of those Acts has been a ghastly failure. For a long time past the people engaged in the sugar industry were saying that if they could only get the control of the sugar industry taken from Federal control and placed under State control it would be better for them. Now we find that a.s soon as the change has taken place, instead of being satisfied, there is more discontent and grumbling and dis­satisfaction than there ever was before. It was stated that the growers would secure the extra 2s. 2d. per ton which would accrue on the aboli. tion of the excise and bounty ; but in many inst•ances thev have not received it. Accord­ing to the deputation from the Childers dis· trict which waited on the Treasurer, they pointPd out that they were not getting t_his 2s. 2d. per ton at all, but that it was beliJJS' appropriated by someone else. They pleaded for the establishment of a contra! mill, so that they would be delivered from the bond­age in which they found themselvf's through having to supply their cane to a private mill. So far as the aliens engaged in the

Mr. Winstanley.]

234 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

indu,tr:r. are conc<'rned, the Act has not accomplished all that it set out to do and things arc n:uch wm·se in regard t~ the number of alren.~ employed instead of being bett<>r: Tho Secretary for Agriculture, in SJ>eakmfr. on tho sugar quc.:,tion the other mght, caid that the sugar qu<.· .• tion was a very cowplex onP and was diflicult to underFtand. During the conference of ·ugar-grow<ers at Bundaberg tho other aay one sugar-grower who had be0n < ngagod in the industry for vears ad­mitted, after listenirr'(' to the di•.(,ussion at thP < cnfen E< ''· _that he was unable to grasp oomP of the tlnngs that were talked about at the conferenee. Is it anv oYondor that ordi':ary· peoplD are unabh• · to grasp the cetarls coJ,neded with it? I listened to the spe<'_eh <A tho J\IinistL•r, thinking he would dan£.< 'onw o£ tho statements which had bOf>n m~d0, bu_t he left thP position a• muddy an_d umntcellrg1blP as h,-. found it. Tho only thnw that I could understand him to suggest as a I"L"'''dy for tlw pre~cnt state of thing-s was co-operation. There is no doubt that in man~· ':·ay8 co-opPration is a good thing; hut 1t IS v ell known that in the Burdekin nistrict t.he m< 01 on the Jarvisfield Estate W<'rc ' nxious to co-operate with the Govern­m, 1t twrl g-et a central mill, and the Trea­surr·l shi 'd that tlwv could not fulfil the conditi01."· and that they were very g-lad for the senicos h<· had rendered to them. The grov, er,, J>t J 11rvisfwld tell quite a different story to Hut. Tlwv sav that rather difficult conditions w0r0 · impost'd on them bt'fore the Govel·nmcn~ would a<lrancc tht' money that ;vould )JrOVIdc them with a mill. They said m all truthfulness that they did comply with the <'O':ditions, but th0 Dr~·sclale prlople W<'rc> frightcnPd of another mill coming in between the Pioneur- and Kalamia Mills and they purchased a number of farms i~ the area whicl' would supplv thP 1r.ill at ,J an-isfi0ld. Tho growers would have gone on wrth the mill if the Government had helped them. and they wanted the Government to help them. Th'l Treasurer ':ent up there, and, as a result of nt'gotia­tlon' wit.h Drysd:1le Brothers: nothing further cnme of the mill. The grower:< sav that !hey \vel"' sold b:t the Trc-a -mrer in the mtercsts of privat~ enterprio,e. Thev are

not, L~\ bour supporters; · they [9 p.m.] are people who voted for the

GoYernment at the last elec­tion, and the~ thi'}k they have been very badly trf"•'tPd m thiS comwrtion. They also thought that they would obtain some relief by th0 Cane Price Boards Bill when it wn.s introduced, and, althou~h it did not pass, last S0E-Jirn, they were hopeful th:,t it wow'l. br· plaeed upnn thP etatut8-book, acc<:>ntin(i the as'!uan"" that had het'n given by the hon. membnr for Burrum that it was not f!'oing to rest, and il would be intro­dunPd again and passed.

Lieut.-Colonel RANKDT: We are going to give them something better.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: It has to be seen yet whether it will hH better or worse. \Ve ':ill •ee when it eomes along whether it is hl~e a good many other things which are said to be better, anu which are going to bP . done. At any rate. this is the attitude wh1_ch they take up. !'he questi<_m of selling tht'rr cane by analysis, or straight off the field, has bc<en repeatedly discussed. but what tho farmers say-and what I think is

[ilfr. Winstanley.

a sound proposition-is that they ought t~ have some say in the price that is paid for cane, whether they sell the cane by analysis, or whether they sell it straight out. I am inclined to think that the farmers are not very much in love with analysis, for the simple reason that they are not analytical chemists, and they do not personally under­''tand, and get no opportunity of testing or checking the analysis made. They very much prefer, when it can be done, to sell their cane off the stools, and, if they can possibly manage it, to sell cane which will weigh well when it gets on the machine. 'l'hey like to have some practical idea as to what they are going to get for their cane when it is cut and sent to the mill. Under cxiKting conditions, they have had no say whatever, for even when the cane is sold, the miller as a general rule says what cane ho is prepared to buy, and the farmers have no option as to what cane they grow; they have to grow that, or none at all. I think that in this connection tho sugar-growers in this district have very r-ood caw·e for com­plaint at the condition'· they tnd them­selves in. It seems quite ;1lain that not only in one but in quito a number of "u;;ar dis­tricts the speculation which iiac; tah·n p:ace in sugar land,, has not been a help but rather <1 hindrance; to the bona fide sugar-growers_ Some of them have paid more for their land than they are able to make out of it, and the consequence is that they are in the hands of the bank. While thE'y have a pretty big turnover, they find when their expen>es have been paid, and interest has been met, they are not in tho position that they ought to­be. In this <'onnoction, also, there· are loud complaints in those di-;tricts about the treat­mont which they got from the Agricu:tural Bank. That is another institution that need,, amending and to be made more useful-and its application extended. The delay that takes place before many of these people can get anything at all, makes it of practi­cdly very little lF-0 to th<:>m, and wh<'h they do r-et the mone~-. it is not an amount that re-ally help, them to an~· great extent. If a .man goes in for sugar-growing on anything like a decent smle, £200 or £300 is not of much U>0. It was proposed by the Labour party to amend th0 Agricultural Bank Act last eession so as to m;,ke its application a good deal broader. The securit:- is !'Ood, and these people ought to be· helped as much as PC'·"ble bv the Government. Another Bill which ,v,;.s clamoured for and introduc-ed last session wa-.~ the Pure Seeds Bill. From what we hcarJ in the House, the change which tho Bill was "'.oing to make in Queentiland would be wonderful, and yet up to the pr<,<<"nt time the Act has been practically inoperae1 ve. I do not think the regulations have been issued, and the Act has been practically a .dead letter. I was told on good authority that as far as vege­table and flower seeds are concerned, about 70 per cent. of the seeds are imported, and that those are the ,ceeds with which the diflicultv will take place rndor the Act, scedsmen have to give a warranty as to the fertility and the germinating pow+er of any secdF. over the viLlue of a shilling. _\!most any catalogue which one picks up-and it­doGs not matter whether they are Australian cataloguE's or whether they come from abroad, they arc all careful to protect thf'm­selv~s in this connection-wads something like this-

" \Ve give no warranty. either express­or implied, as to description, quality,

Address in Reply. [16 JULY.) Address in Reply. 235

p~oductivity, or any other matter, and will not be responsible for crops."

There is another one much the same­,,~Ve f!ive no warranty, either express

or u_nphed, as to growth, quality, pro­ductiveness,''

etc. It is an abstract from whok,·ale seeLlo­men's catalogues which thev send to this (lountry.

Mr. Hu~TER: Thev hav0 decided not to put that Act into O]Jcration.

Mr. \VINSTAKLEY: I am not surprised that they have come to that conclusion becatbc the A_ct is simply unworkable. I an~ aorry the. ~llnlt~'.er for .Agric1llturu is not here. It IS an ,\et that is of some interest t<! CJ:arters Tower·,. Although it is a mining distriCt, e_ndeavours are bc·ing made to de­velop agnculture there. When the Minister vas up there h,~ \Vad giving the substance of the Act to those who listi;ned to him at the Horticultural Societv and talking about the conditions under whi~h seeds would h»ve to be sold when the .let came into operation. He said that gra"' seeds such as Rhodes grass, which is a favourit~ up there would have to haYe a germinating powe; of 50 per cent., othcrwiHe the seed ,vould no~ bP passed. An individual up there, who is prachcall) an expert on the suhj ect, wrote to the Press in connection with it. I believe he sent the Minister a copy ot the letter, but I .do not know what has been .done in conne?tion with it. Amongst other things he pmnL> out-

" In the meantim~ if vou could find room for a few extracts from th0 ' Queensland ~\gricultural Journal ' for December, 1913, it may enlighten vour r?aders as to the difficulty of the posi­ti<:n, !l-S the fact that the highest ger­mmatwn teJ_t for _Rhodes grass seed, taken from eight Bnsbane seedsmen, was only 32 per cent., while other lines averagGd. from 75 to 100, proycs that the seed IS of poor ~<erminating qualitv for, !'ranting all eight seedsmen were u;I~ •crupulous enough to sell bad seed it is inconceivable that thev should all' ha.-e old or bad stock in at· one and the same tin1e.''

He says at the end-" I find that if a man buvo 1 lb of

~ho~es gra:·s for 1s. 6d., and after pl~nt­Ing It ~mly 10 per cent. germinates, ho will sill! ha\·e 7,411 plants from one ponnyworth of seed, and the Minister fiays lYe mnst give him Hve tiincs as much. Pity the poor seedsman."

And I think it will he a case of "pity the poor seodsman " under such circumstances. h is quito evident that the Act was not pro­rcrly thought ant before it was introduced and, like some other legislation, it is now ~ ~1 ead letter. That is a pity, hecH,use some nnprovemenb might bo made in this con­nection. If the Act were carried out in its entirety, and the regulations were anything hke what they were said to be by the ~.finister, a great many people who are deal­inp: in seeds at the present time would have to. 'hut up _altogether, for, amongst other thmgs, an mspector could open seeds in trans_it c:ither by sea or train, take samples, rend mshtute procee<Iings against the vendor. It is like some of the other legislation that was rushed through at the close of last session and did not receive that considera­tion that it ougho to have received. We have

been hearing a great deal about the beef trust and about the price of bed in Queens­land. \Vhether beef is going to be dearer, '·r whether it i~ going to be cheaper, it is certainly quite high enough in pric!l at the present tin:.e for the consun1crs, 1..vhatever may be the benefits accruing to those engaged in the cattle industry. 'l'he Secretary for Agriculture said that he hoped the price­would rise higher still. That was like a lot_ ot other statcrr,ents he made on that tour. He told the people of ChartPrs Tower\. thz>t, If they had st,ent as muc:,:l morwy on agri­culture a, they had spent on mining, Charters Tov, ers would be a much better place than i+ is now. They simply lauglwd at a state­ment like that. This Gov<'rnm<'nt m· "ome other GoYerninent \vill nt1 scl to do so.::~.wthin&; in connection with the beef trust before very long, for in places like North Queensland beef and mutton are practically the basis. of what tho people live on, and it is a very serious matter for them with meat at present prices. It is becoming almost impm;gible for tf.cm to get the meat thev have been aums­tomed to, and in many of these places it is tzot possible fm them to get vegetables and other things v·hich are obtainable in Bris­bane. Some time· ago, the han. n'ember for Carnarvon, in an interview which appeared in the ''Telegraph," said-

" The p1 esent high prices were .due to natural conditinns quito outside any company operations. The world's de­mand for m"at has temporarily outgrown the supply. owing to the population hav­ing increased at a greater ratio than that at which cattle had been bred."

There may be something in that statement, J:ut it is well known that the operations of the beef trust have a great .deal to do with th<J increa,,ed price of meat, and, while for the tim,• being they are competing with their rivals, it is well ]mown that that will not last for any lc·ngth of time. I suppose we have "ll seen that kind of thing on a small ~cale. Local butchers or <'thor local trade,men enter into '~Oinpetit"ion wiH\ each other, an(L whj]p the competition lastz, the consumer' get tho bene­fit, but they ver) soon come to the conclusion that this competition is a Lad thing br them­selves, and izhey come to an understanding, and prices go up, and then the people have t{) pay, in many instancr.·'l, _not .a fair and rcn.­':onable but an exorbitant price. TlH' i1on. member for Carnarvon in that interview also said that there were lesb stock in Queensland than there were some vcars acw. About the same time th,:, Pr: mier. was telling the people in-London about the progn'''" and prosperity of Queensland, and, arr,ong other things, he told them that the cattle in the State had incrf'ased from 2,543,471 in 1902 to 5.210,891 in 1912, and sheep from 7,213,985 1n 1902 to 20,310,036 in 191-f. Of course that was per­fectly true, but at the same time the figures were misleaC!ing, for the simple reason that they were giv-en as if that was the ordinary rate of incrpnse in the number of cattle i11 the Shte, and as if thev were increasing at that rat" all the timb. If that were the case, then Queensland would be a very won­derful place. But is it .not a fact that, if we went back a few vears we would find that in 1890 there were 5;558.264 cattle in Que"ns­lnnd and 18,007.234 sheep? So that in realit:;o twenty years ago the number of stock was near! v as large as it is at th" pre•ent time. The han. gentleman took for his comparison a time when, after a long dr,· time, flocks and herds were dPcimated. '>Yhvtlwr this·

Mr. Winstanley.]

"236 Address in Reply. [ASSE~IBLY.] Address 'in Reply.

Gov0rnmcnt 1' prepared to take action in thr, rr.atter remains tD be Eeen, but certainly people arc going to have some difficulty, even with the increase in wages which has taken place in sam<> branches of industry, to meet the demands that are being made upon them through increased prices. At the end of last year tho Gm,rnmPnt of Xew South \Vales appointed a Royal Commission to inquire into the cost of living, and one witness gave what he called a 'diotic scale" for a familv con· sisting of a mun, hi3 wife, and throe children. T will quote this scale to show what some people-Conserve"tive politicians, too-con­sider an ideal scale of living for a working man and his familv. He said that the dietic value of margarine was just as great as that of butwr. I de not know what the farmers' representatives think about that. I know that I would rather have butter, if I could get it. Then he said that vegetables "and fruit were pleasant to the palate, but were not absoluteh necessarv. And here is his dietic scale f;,r a fami;y of five-

" 20 lb. bread, 13 lb. meat, 7 quarts milk, H lb. of butter, 4 lb. sugar, 1 lb. jam, 2 lb. split peas, 2 lb. rice, 3 lb. oat­meal, 1 lb. raisins, 14 lb. pohxtoes, 1 lb. suet, 4 lb. flour, 5 lb. vegetables, 2 lb. treacle, n(· eggs, 1 lb. meat worth 10 eeggs."

If the quantities were double what he gives, I "do not think it would be too much. I <lertainly would prefer the Dunwich or St. Helena ration. Now, I wish to say a word or two with reference to some statements which were made during the recess. The 'Treasurer, speaking at Killarney, gave ex­pression to ideas somewhat as follows:-

" The liberty of the subject shouLd be maintained."

·Good old liberty of the subject!

"That was tbe ideal of true democracy, and that was tho jwinciple embodied in the Industrial Peace Act."

Yet we find that the people who thought they were going to be benefited by the Industrial Peace Act, the first time a decision has gone

-against them, want to get that Act amended -or done away with.

"That was the principle emhodied in the Industrial Peace Act, which enabled every man, no matter what his politics were. to follow his own conscience and live .in his own way. He had no hesita­tion in saying that the greatest thing they had to fear in Australia to-day was the danger of parli'lmentary government being taken out of the hands of the repre­sentatives of the people and controlled by an irresponsible junta outsi·de."

•On the subject of liberty, John Morley, in a little book on "History and Politics," says-

" We all declare for liberty, but in using tbe same word we do not all mean the same thing. \Ve assume the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he· pleases with himself and the product of his lahour, while with others' the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men •and the product of other men's labour."

'Certainly some people, when they talk about liberty, mean not only liberty to control themselves and do as they like, but also 1iherty to control others, to take the brea;d

[Mr. Winstanley.

out of the mouth of another man, and cut him out by competition in the labour market. That is not the kind of liberty I believe in. As far as the outside junta is concerned, it would be interesting to know whether the han. gentleman was thinking about the junta which threw out the Produce Bill which was !JaSsed bv this House• in order to enable the ~··ower of produce to get a fair return f~r his producP. That measure w:1:, pa;;,pd by this House, and a junta outside the House. used tht'ir influence, and were able to pracucally annihilate the BilL I suppose they threatened that those who passed the measure would be ~<nnihilated if it was placed on the st.xtute­book. We find also that this House passed a, Health Bill three years ago, and that out­Bide people were successful for. a very. l;mg tilllc in prenmting some of Its JHOYISIOns being enforced. That _measur~ provides that (,ighteen months after Its passmg the make1·s or boots and shoes shall not be allowod to put brmYn paper in them instead of leather. They were allowed eighteen months to get rid of their existing stocks, but at the end of that eighteen months' period they got another six months allowed them, and I believe that even since then outside influence and pressure has been brought to bear on the Government which has prevented the Act being put into lull operation, with the result that the people do not get the benefit they should have ITOt from the passing of the Health Act A~endment Act. I notice that, nccordiniT to the Governor's Speech, some provisio; is to be made in connection with the Health Act, and the proposed provisio_n_ is certainly very much needed.- The proviswn which proposes tD fix the ~Iz~ of allot_ments on which houses may be bmlt IS a step m the rio-ht direction. Anyone who travels about B;isbane must be seized with the fact that unless something is done in that way, it will not be very long before we sh!Lll have s~~ms here just as bad as they have In other Cities, as houses are being jammed· together and are of a ramshackle character, which is a -disgrace to the city. The Bill to provide. for State fire insurance is also a step in the rtght direction. In my opinion, not only fire in­surance, but insurance of other kinds, should be taken up by the Government, ancf made applicable to people all over the Sta~. ~ Public Trustee Bill is -a measure whwh IS

very much needed, but Whether. it will b<;eome an Act and be put into operatiOn remams to be seen. I suppose that will depend to a large extent upon how much pressure pe~ple engaged in that business at the present time bring to bear on the Gove:nment. . A measure of that kind has been m operatwn in New Zealand for a long time past. Workers ·as a rule cannot save much, and have not much to leave to their families or relatives but some do leave a few pounds, and the ~um they leave is materially reduced by the expenses incurred in complyi_ng with the requirements of the law, so th~t It woul.d be an advantao-e to such persons If a public trustee was apt~ointed to take charge of sueh matters. Then, the Railways Bill _is to. be reintroduced. This will be the thn·d time that mea.sure has been brought before us, ~nd I hope it will be the last, and _th":t somethmg will be done to see that the Btl! IS placed on the statute-book, so that those for whose advantage it is intro-duced may get the benefit of its provisions. ·with rPgard to prices and rents being lower in Queensland than in other States, I would point out that not only are

Address in Reply. [16 JULY.) Address in Reply. 237

rents and the prices of commodities cheaper in Queensland than in other parts o£ the Commonwealth, but \vages are lower here than they are in other St<ttes. The followin ~ extract will show this- "

"INDUSTRIAL WORKERS' \VAGES.

" Mr. G. H. Knibbs, Commonwealth Statistician, has just issu"'d a report re­garding the wages paid to industrial workers in the different States. The highest average men's wage paid in November, 1912, was: In Western Aus­tralia, £2 17s. 9d.; :"'ew South Wales, £2 lls. 1d.; South Australia, £2 Ss. 9d. ; Queensland, £2 7s. ; Victoria, £2 6s. 9d.; and Tasmania, £2 4s. 4d. For women, the order was as follows: \Vestern Aus­tralia, £1 2s. 5d.; New South Wales £1 Os. 6d.; Victoria, 19s. lld. ; South Aus­tralia, 17s. Sd.; Queensland, 16s. lld.; Tasmania, 16s. 5d. The cause of Vic­toria's higher position in the women's class is due to the better dev<'lopment of industries in which females are employed, and that a greater number of these have wages boards than those in other States."

It is evident from that that wages in Queens­land are not near 1;,· as high as they are in some of the other States, and for that reason the workPrs. here find it difficult enough to m<:et the prJCefl they are charged for every· thmg they have to buy at the present timo. Some reference is made in the Governor's Speech to the mining industry. The refer· once is e.', follows :-

" It is to be regretted that mining is not in so flourishing a condition as our other groat primary industries. This is due partly to the diminishing output of gold, and partly to the fact that our extraordinary and long continued pros­perity in other fields of enterprise has diverted much capital from mining in­vestment. Nevertheless, as regards the more useful minerals, steady and hopeful progroEs is visible; and an industry which every year adds several million pounds to the wealth of Queensland is worthy of the generous assistance my advisers haw already given it and pur­pose to continue."

I do not know what they regard as "generous assistance," but in the past I do not think they have been too generous by any means.

\Vhen the Minister was travelling [9.30 p.m.] round the State recently, he was

fairly generous with his promises, and I hope those promises will mature and that we will get something more than mere wo rcls. I had a letter to-da v from Charters Towers from a company, asking for some a~sistance; a company that has been strug­gling along fm a very long time doing pros· pecting work; up to the present with small 1 esult, but "t the sarr,e time they deserve every encouragement. Although things are not as prosperous as one would like to see them, there is some encouragement in the fact that th<' returns for last month for Charters Towers amounted to 1,000 ounces more than for June of last year, which shows, at any rate, that there is some little improvement. Every little improvement gives encourage­ment, and I certainly thirik the Government could very wisely spend some money in as­sistanqe to the industry. Charters Towe!·s is

trying to do something in other directions than mining for gold, and the pity of 1t is that they c!Hl not try many years ago when money was more plentiful than it is at the present time. lf they had, probably Charters Towers would be a very different place to what it is. · .!£!forts are now being made to produce agricultural crops and to extend the dairymg industry, and in the matter of fruit growing there has been some success at the present time. ln this connection, the Govornnwnt have sent the fruit expert there a second time, and no doubt his services will be very highly appreciated. Certainly some­thing would need to be clone bciore ever Charters Tmvers could send its fruit very far awav. Gnder existing conditions, fruit is imp;rted there in vory large quantities, and thr· conditions which exist on tho railway very often make it a very ri,,ky business for those engaged in it. It is not an uncornrnon occurrence for people, aft~'r having bought fruit in Sydney and paid 1s. a case extra to have it carried in the cool ohamberP, to find, when it reaches Townsville, that instead of · t being put iii a covered truck to keep it cool till it reaches tho end of its journey, it is put in an open truck. That would not be ,o bad if it was put on the night train, but on several occasions the opon truck has boon shunted at a siding on the way, and left there from Saturday night till Monday morning, and one ean quite understand what kind of stuff the fruit was when It reached Charters Towers on the JYlonday morning. The fruit should reach there on Saturday night, because that is the great salo night, but whon it roaches Charters Towers on the ::\lonclav it is Yerv often nothing but rotten pulp. "This is quite a common occurrence, and certainly something better must be clone before there is any chance of sending fruit away as a commercial product to other places. X o doubt as far as the far \Ve,tern country is concormecl, a good deal could be sent out in that clirPction, and I certainly belie...-e that in Charters Towers something greater than what has been clone at the pre­sent time will be accomplished thorc. I cer­tainly know something will have to be clone so far .as disease in fruit is concerned, par­ticularlv in regard to the fruit fly, because there' are people engaged in the industry, Chinamen in particular, who are fairly large orange growers and who arc not much con­cornocl about the fruit fly or anything else. Certainly somebody will have to be placed in a position to inspect those orchards where oranges are grown and see that, as far as possible, they are kept free from clisea•P. If this is clone, and the peopl<> who are en­gaged in the industry at the present tin;e art' given some help or some encouragement m this direction, Charters Towers, at any rate, will produce quite a number of other things besides the gold for which it has been noted for so many years past. There arc quite a number of other things in tho Governor's Speech and in the list which has been plac<>d before tho House. Certainly none of thorn are likely to bring about a revolution. but no doubt when thev come before the House they will receive the, consideration they should gct. and perhaps some of the amendments will make things better than they are at the present time. Cedainly I hope they will confer more benefits and greater advantages on the people for whom they are intended than last yPar's legislation. There is a good deal of curiosity about some of them, but I suppose, as the Ministers say, the intentiors

Mr. Winstanley.]

238 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply

of the Government will be made known to th0 HmFe in duo time, and when that time COlllt'S, the various 1natters \Yill recei vc care­ful conoidcration, and if it is posoible for this ,idP of the House to make them more oompi l'hm>iYc and 1nore advantageous to the Jlfcoplo for whom they are intended, then we are prepared to do it. I trust that as a rc>ult of the propo,od legislation some of the places that at nrcc crt are not so flourish­ing as we would fike to see them will enter .a .ne\Y era of prosperity, and that Queensland w1ll contmue proc porous.

The HU2.IE SEURET.\RY (Hon. J. G. Appr ~. Albert): I propo>o to confin" anv remarks that I have to make principally to replying to the criticisms delivered by the lc'ad•·r of tho Opposition, by the hon. mem­ber for Herbert, and by tho hon. member for RockhamphJn, in cornedion with the .administration of our electorallawe. I quito confpss that all of us who have some know­ledge of politic, and of constitutional me1hods recogni~f\ that it is the dutv of the Opposition to criticise the occupants of the Treasury benches ; to en de a' ,.ur to find any flaw in conPcction with their policy, and, as far as possible, to improve any legis­lation which may be brought before the Hm;·:c for its consideration. But I think it has b<·,,•n generally recognised that whore prominPnt members of the Opposition make stntemt'nts which involve practically charges of political corruption at;ainst permanent oflicers who administer particular depart­ments. they should han: som<:thing more than hear ay Bvidcne:, to go upon. And no han. H!Pm!wr kmnvJ that bettn' than the leader of the Onnosition. If the criticisms which werP. offered- by tho:e hon. members were true, then, I repeat, tho Administration and the offic>Js h~ve h·cn practicallY gniltv of pvli­tl?:al (·orruption and rk~·"-'rve · thP oPprobrium of all honest nwn aad women. Now, I pro­pose, as far as lies in my power, and by irrPfnLLhle eYidencP, t,J ::;ho·w that thC'sC' hon. IH('nlbPrR "\Vere entirelv incorrect in C/)nnection with the statements \vhich thev made to thio; Home; st.,tcments which, i( t!w:v are nut refuted, will umloubtedlv lead th~e electora of thP State to form an oninion unfavourable to the pre<ent .'l.dministration and the party "·hich sits behind thmn. The leader of the Oppc,,ition, in speaking in connection with thig matt€r, said- •

" I may say that I have travelled throu,:h various parts of the State, an.:l han• had ,,m opportunitY of forming an opinion particuhrly upon the W1\ in o,:hich the electoral law hns been carriod

·out in Queensland. I have no he eitation in 'a:-ing that the pr<:sent state of ciTairs with rc<:!'ard to tho enrolment of electors is nothing short of shocking. There is no proyi,,,ion bPing rnade to nlace nampc:; upon the <'lectoral rolk We arc told that the Guve1nment are anxions that everyone who is entitlPd, or who ought to vote, should be on the roll, but we have the sJ)edaclc of the Police Force of (lueensl·and going round in connention w-ith chPC'king namP'i on thP Con-lmon­wcolth roll. and at the same time doing nothing with retrarrl to the Queensland rrlL a lthmwh th~y are State officers."

Mr. RYA){: That is quite true.

The HO'C\TE SECRETARY: Do I under­stand that th,, han. and learned leader of the

[Jf r. Win stanley.

Opposition, who has interjected, is making a charge against the officers who control this particular subject matter, or is he not?

Mr. RYAN: Against you.

The HOME SECRETARY: That is the r,o,ition. It ju't shows you, Mr. Speaker, how entirely 1gnorant the hon. and le.arned nwmber is in connection with this matter. I have on different occasions pointed out that he has showed a depth of ignorancP in con­r cr 1.ion with the administration that cer­tainly reflects no credit on him, occupying, as he doc·,<, a high position. Now, I propose that tho elPctors of the State of Queens­land should have an opportunity of judging. (Interruption.)

TIH' SPEAKER : Order !

Tho HOME SECRETARY: In view of the rmminence of the Federal elections, the Com­nionwealth Government made an application to the Queensland Government for the use of tl!eir police officers in making a house-to­house earn-ass during the month of April. ThB hon. member who, on different occasions, has stated that no effort has been made by the administration to secure the largest pos­sible number of names on the annual roll, condcn:ns the Government for that they did not at the 'arne time instruct the policB to make the necesR'lry canvass in connection with the State electoral rolls. \Vhy, what would be the effect if that information was secured in April, information which has invariably been secured in the month of August? Tho general body of electors, naturally, if that statement was not refutea, would come to the conelusion that thoro was son•ething in what thB ho.n. n1ernber has stated, \Yhere=ts I assure you no•"·. t-;ir, tlce1t if tho Electoral Departmr::nt had caused that information to be obtained in the month of April, it would have resulted in a large numl;er of name' not being added to the annual revision roll, the court for which is held in September. There would have bPen absolutely no advantage m collecting r~ames on that_. pH.rticular occa~ion. Invari­'"bl,,~ the Shte Electoral D~partment have cau"vd a house-to-hom-e canvass to be made i:·y the police so that every po,3Sible man or 'voman who was entitled to be on the roll should be so placed on the roll.

Mr. PAY;-;E: 'What roll?

The HOME SECRETARY: The State roll. Such canvasses were made in the year 1906, in th0 year 1908, in the year 1909, in the year 1910, and in the year 1913, althoug-h in the year 1913, for various causes, the larger towns only were so canvac"ed. But han. members will see that from year to ~-Par thiR canva:s has been made. Now, what is the system adopted? Han. members sitting on that side of the House have com· mende:d the Commonwealth electoral law, "h'c,h I repeat-as I said before in what is J,erhaps not elegant language-is absolutely a rotten law. In it there is no svstem of rovio.ion, there is no system of revis-ing dup­licat.ioP';, t.h<"' roll is not r<'prinh'd annuallY, as is the case with the State electoral roll. T n some instancPs the rolls have not been 1 0printed for three years. There is no advertising of names, and, as a matter of fact, it is practically impossible for the general body of e'l.":tors. or the individual electors, to ascertam what the state of the rolls is. Contrast that with our own system,

Address in Reply. [16 JULY.] Address in Reply. 239

which providPo for the publication of the names of those who are ''de"d left or dis­qualified," whicl> a·dvertises the' whole of the Jtames of tho;c who are added to the list where the roll is rm-ised annually, and whe~ever nalntls arL' added or erased, and i8 wprmted annually. I think it must be ad· 1111tted by those who are unbiassed that there is abaolutely no comparison between the t":o syst-ems. This year the necessary in­:Jtructwns were given that in the month of Au~ust a hou•e-to-house canvas;; should be made throughout tho State by the police in order that thoe highest possible number of those who are entitled to be on tho roll should be added to the roll at thn annm!l revision co1ut. It is always customary in connection with the collection of names that o(.'Ortain !nstructions arc giyen. The ordinary mstructwns have been glVen to the policb 0!' this occasi_on, and I propose, even at the "-''sk of wearymg hon. merr.bers to read those instructions which ha vc been 'issued in the usual form this year to the Police Force in connection with that particular dutv Thev are given in the first instance to the 'state Elec­torar Registrar, and bv him conve"'ed to the members of the fm·c<'. The instr'uctions which have been issued this v<'ar are dated 14th .July, 1914. ThPv are from the Princi­pal. J?lc,·toral. R<:>gictr'"'·'s Office, Treasury Bu,ldmf .,, Br1sbane, and are as follow :-

"Referring to this year's annual revi­sion of th~ State rolf,., I be·g t<> ,advise you that the police will make a house-to­~lous<; canvass. for the purpose of obtain­mg mforrnatwn concerning all persons on the roll for your district who have ' left ' the district, become ' disquali­fied,' . or have changed resid'1!'ce, and also m rep;ard to female electors who hc.ve . chang<;d their names by reason of Inu-:-rr;if"'e, srncc last annual revision.

" At the same time the police will be requirGd tc• obtain electoral claims from all persons whose names are not entered on your roll, but who are entitled to have their names so entered. •

" In order to enable this work to be performed in connection with the roll or rolls_ with which von are concerned it will ~e necessary 'for you to supply the. po)1c'" detailed to perform these duhee m' your district with copies of what annual and additional rolls and lists they 11:1 ay require, together with a sufficient supply of claim forms.

"If you have not recPived the addi­tional (June) roll, it will be nece'coary to supply rho policB with the annual roll the additwnal (April) roll, and the bi: monthly April and June lists.

" If, on receipt of this circular, vou have not sufficient rolls or claim forms on h>:nd, ):Ou ~hould apply, if necessrny by 'nre, to th1s office for a supply.

"All claimo received by you prior to the August Regi,.tration Court should be regi'·.t·Pred at that Court.

" As it frequently happem that per­sons, whos<, names are entered on the electoral rolls, are temporarilv absent from the district, and mav be so absent at the timr· the police will be making thiese inquiries, it is important that the

police should be informed that any of such persons, who have a home in the district and an intention to return there­to, should not be marked ' left.'

"Please carefully instruct the police in regard to the work required to be done, and also advise them that claim fo.ms are onl; to be attested by duly qualified p<:>rsons, as indicated on the hack of claim form.

"The attrmtion of the police should be drawn to the names printed at the end of the additione l roll as 'dead,' or cra,ed under section 30E."

Hon. 111embers will consequently sec that the imtructions are as full and as cDmpl.ete as it is possible to make them, and in particular, in the Cdses of those electors who happened to be absent from their homes, and who intended to rt'turn thr,.c. special instructions are g·iven in that circular that they are not to be marked "left." Tho leader of the Oppositivn, during the course of his speech, said-

" During the late election in the Nor­manby electoraJc, I had occ-asion to observe th"t there v.ere many persons whose Il(EUe·o were struck off when the new rolls were being made under the Elections ~let which we recently passed. Names were struck off the TOll of per0ons who had lived in the same place for years and years--one family, I know, as long as thirteen years. I rc,gard it as a very grave m:1tter indeed."

What are the official facts, as compared with that crronequs Btatement, which was intended to deceive the general body of electors? The rolls were compiled under the old Acts at the unn,1al revision court held in November, 1913. Th? onlv names which were struck off since the new 'Act came into force are those which were nrintecl as having been added to another rolf Those which were struck off appear in thP nddendum, and contain only eight names. I might also stah' for the information of the hon. gpntleman that names are> not remm-cd from the roll unless a claim is received for another roll. or unless thev are ntarkcd "dL;ad," "],•ft." or disqualified;" on the receipt of information obtainPd from the police a,, a result of their house-to-hou'e can­vas,,, and thPn only after a notification is S<>nt tn the elector at his last known p1nce of addrec'. I rwdPrstand that the hen. and leun< i lc cder of the Ornooition was con­cernn! in the NormanhY 0lcction, hking part on beholf of the candichte whom he mp­port' d. I have not the slight<>st dnubt that the hon. gentle 'Dan hn 'l in his possc-c2ion the roll of that <>lcctora•c, tlgether 'with the r.c]dPmlum to which I have referred. T have no <tonht h0 had. If hP ·did not, then it ""m', an cx'raordinary thing to m<, that he ,:wuld come to this HauFe and make f'O

graye a. char~e against the official'3 of ·what, I rr>peat <Venin, would he gros'. political cor­ruption in striking off nam''' of electors who ••:erp entitled to ],e on tl.<' roll. Assuming th<1t th<· hon. and leamed le:>der of the Oppo­sition had this roll in his hand, he would have likewise had thP addPndum. The names of tl;ose ·who wer0 r0moved from the Nor· manhv roll at the last revision court. held in :r\over;1ber, 1913, numbered eight, and their names are given in the addPndum. ;'\ot one

Hon. J. G. Appel.]

240 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

of those eight electors was marked "dead," ''left," or '' -disqualifie<l," but they were removed from the roll for the following reason:-

" The narnos of electors were removed from the Xormanby roll under section 30E of the Elections Act on ctccount of enrolment in another district."

GoVERN~IENT MElrBERS: Ah, ah!

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. mem­ber comes hero and makes so gross a charge against the administration, and against the olficials who carry out this particular admini'tration, a statement abx"'Jlutely devoid of any vestige of truth.

GoVERN<\IENT ::\1E)1BEllS: Hear, hear!

The HOME SECRETARY: In view of reckless statements of this character-and what I have said hero can be confirmed and affirmed by official documents, because here is the supplementary roll, and here is the addendum with tho eight names which were removed from the Xormanby roll, becau'e thov had been enrolled on another electoral roll-I leave it to the general body of electors to judge as to the value of any criticism and any charges made by thH hon. and ]parned gentleman. (Opposition laughter.)

GoVETINMENT lY1E}1BERS: Hear, hoar !

The HO::\IE SECRETARY: I want now, furthermore, just to contrast our own system and the Commonwealth electoral system. The method adopted by the State electoral system is this: Where an elector has left o'ne electoral district, and is residing in anoth0r electoral district, and his name has been placed on another electoral roll, the following memorandum is forwarde<! :-

" State Electoral Roll. " Elections Acts, 1885 to 1908. " (Section 30E.) "Memorandum: It appears from a

claim received by me from --"

I will not give the name, as these are official documents I hold in my hand. This one refers to the name of an elector who was on the Kurilpa roll, and who had his name enrolled on the Puddington roll. The name of that elector is removed from the Kurilpa roll, because it has already been placed on the Paddington roll. I have got a number of these documents, and I produce them here before the House, where they can be seen by anv hon. member. These are actual official fa~ts. Here are the dates upon these papers showing when they were received. Let us look at the rotten Commonwealth system. Hon. members will see that there are some hundreds of these cases, and yet these are the names of electors who all appear on two Federal rolls. The first name I was referring to is on the Brisbane Federal roll and also on the Oxley Fe-deral roll, and he was on the two rolls at the time of the last Federal election. I have the proof here with me. I have in the lobby the electoral rolls upon =hich the name'' appear as I have r.tated. I only picked out a certain number, because the time was not sufficient to go through the whole lot. In each of these cases the elector is on two Federal rolls, and he will remain on two Federal rolls. There he was at the

[Hon .. l. G . .Appel.

last Federal election, and there he is to-day­If hon. members want any further evi-dence I will be only too pleased to let them per­sonally inspect the official ·documents which I lwld in my hand. The Commonwealth rolls are also here in the lobby of tho House, an-d hon. members can verify the official stattement which I am making to the House to-night.

GOVERNMENT MEiiiBERS : Hea1·, hear ! and Opposition laughter.

The HOME SECRETARY: 'l'hrs is nut very savoury information for hon. members on the opposite side. It is very easy for

them to try the old ge.mo of tho [10 p.m.] three Llack crow" sto1·y-that the

man in thE' street told them this or that-but any statement I make I am always prepared to back up with official evidence. That is to my mind the Lest re. futation of the wild, and, I am so"ry to say, the frequently reckless statements which fell from the lips of hon. members oppoeite, "nd for one purpose, only-to deceiYe the elec­tors of the Stn.te of Queensland.

JYir. TIIEODOilE: One of the nw't humorous speeche~ we have heard this session.

Tho HO:::VIE SECRETARY: Quite so; too humorous for the hon. member. I desire now to say a word or two in connection with the critici"sm which fell from the lips of the hon. member for Herbert, likewise one of th,, most important members of the Oppo'i · tion, and a gentleman who occupied for a considerable time the position of leader of the party. That bon. member made a sta.tP­ment in which he referred to the local optwn vote 'recentlv held in a part of his elector tto, and to the 'statement published in the locaL newspaper-the ''Herbert Ri,-er Express"­that the rolls were in a disgraceful condi· tion. Out of 120 persons who went to vote, said the hon. member, thirty of them, to· their great surprise, found that their names were not on the roll-that they had been remo~d from the roll un-der the purifying system that we have heard so much about in this House. I think it must be admitted even bv hon. members opposite that there could be but one object in making that state­ment. What is the truth of it? This local option roll included the nameB on the Ingham division annual roll for the Herbert, com­piled and revised undeJ: the old Act at the annual revision court in ~oYember, 1913. That is the official fact-although the hon. member was good enough to say-with the object, as I have already stated, of ap­parently deceiving the electors of this State­that it was under the operation of the new law. The names were registered for the Ingham division at the December, 1913,_ court. and t11e February and ~\pril courts th1s year held at Ingham. As the poll was held on the 25th ,June, the names registered at the June court-namely, 67-were not eligible to vote, as they had to wait for the revision court in August. The names removed from the roll bv the passing of the new Act were likewise. iinder the operation of the present law, ·added as an addendum to the supple­mentary roll. I take it that the hon. mem­ber, who professe~ to have a very intimate knowledge of the operation of the present law-although apparently it is a mistaken one-had the opportunity likewise of seeing the supplementary roll with the addendum. What do we find ? The number of electors

Address in Reply. (16 JuLY.] Address in Reply. 241

erased from the Herbert roll, under section 30E of the Elections Act, on account of enrol­ment in another district, is thirtv-one and thu number of electors erased fro~ the' Her­bert roll as dead is eight. DoE's the hon. member contend that these electors were en­titled to vote on the roll from which their names had been erased by reason of being enrolled on another State roll, or did he ex­pect that those eight electors who were marked as " dead " would rise from their graves and walk and vote? We know that they often do that for hon. members on the opposite side. However, I have made these references, and I produce the supplementary roll and the .addendum, because if I did not do 60 I have not the slightest doubt that hon members on that side of the House would wggest that what I was stating was not the fact, but here we have the documents. It has been contended that our present law has a distinct tendency to prevent enrolment. \Vhat are the actual facts? At the various electoral registration courts held since No­vrmber, 1913, in February, April, .and June 1914-that is since the new Act came int~ force-nearly 23,000 names have been regis­tered at those courts. That is a greatlv in­creased registration for the courts held during the fir<t part of <>ach year. The courts held in August and October usually register the most names, which is an indication that the registration will be ven- heavv at ~those courts. Suffice it to say that since that period 23,000 names have been added to the State P!cctoral roll. The leader of the Opposition introduced the question of one roll for both Commonwealth and State purposes, and ap­parently suggests that we should adont the Commonwealth svstem. I have endea.;:oured to give some reasons why the Commonwealth >ystcm is one which certainly should not com­mend itself to any Dlcctor who dPsires to S\e a clean roll. Undoubtf'dlv, to those who lutve no objcdion to persona'tion, who have no objection to those who have actually de­parted fwm this life recording their vote, I have no doubt it commends itself. You Sir, are av;are \vhich narty it is which fa;~ours that method of voting. I took the trouble in connection with this matter to get a memorandum from t 1w Princinal Electoral Rrg-ictrnr's Offic,', Treasnry Bu-ildings. Bris-1->n ne. It is dated 5th :\lay, 1914, and that oflicer writes a:; follows :-

"In accm·dance with vour instructions a compari,on of the eiwolment on the Commonwealth roll for the Brisbane sub­clivison which was printed in NovDmber, 1913 (and is the roll now in public use) was made with the State rolls-viz .. Bris­bane (greater part) and P addington (greater part) comprised in the same area as the Brisbane subdivision.

" The State rolls ,:o compared were re­vised in 1'\ ovem ber and are the rolls for the year 1914, now in force. The enrol­ment for the Brisbane subdivision of the Commonwealth roll is shown as 9,656 and the comparison shows that there are 5.245 of those names common to both Commonwealth and State rolls referred to. The number of electors on the Com­I'lonwealth roll for the Brisbam· subdivi. sion who are not on the corresponding State rolls is 4,411, but of this number it was found that 1,384 electors had been on the State rolls but were struck off by the police as. they were not living at the addresses g1ven on the roll. Two

1914-R

hundred and two of these names were struck off in July, 1912, and 1,182 were struck off in July, 1913. The 1,384 elec­tors so struck off the State roll are still shown on the Commonwealth roll for the Brisbane subdivision as living at the same addresses as were given in the State roll when they were struck off by the police as having left those addresses.

"The comparison further showed that there were on the State rolls 359 name5 which were not on the Commonwealth roll for the Brisbane subdivision. ThesP 359 names were entered on the State rolls in the following years :-

1905 18 1906 27 1907 7 1908 15 1909 16 1910 27 1911 101 1912 89 1913 57

Total ... 359 ::VIr. RYA~: That is simply a property YOt<•.

The HO::.VI!! SECRETARY: That is ab­solutely incorrect-

" The fact that there are at presenc 359 name·~ on the State roll for the Brisbane electorate which are not on the Commonwealth roll for the Brisbane subdi.-ision, if those figures can be taken as a guide, further intensifies the position in regard to the present Commonwealth emolment, which, while showing a total enrolment of considerablv more than the enrollable population of the State, yet does not show these 359 names which >hould be on the Commonwealth r·oll.

'"Deducting the 1.384 nunws l'PfOr<l re­ferred to from the total 9,656 names on tho Commonw<>alth roll for the Bris­bane snbdivicion, and assuming that no other names should be rcmov~d. this roll is over 4 per cont. short of its proper Pnrolment.

'· Sub 'E'quent to the comparison of the enrolment of the Brisbane subdivision of the Commonwealth roll with the corres­ponding State rolls, a complete check of the rolls for the Brisbane, Oxlev, and Wiele Bay divisions of the Common­wealth rolls was made with the State rolls for the similar area•, to see how manv of the names which were removed £ron{ the State rolls as 'dead ' and ' !eft.' as a result of the police can­vasse•; in 1912 and 1913 were still retain•'d on the Commonwealth rolls at the old addressee.

" The result of this check is given in tabular form below, and the information can be verified, as all the name' are marked on the copies of the St1tte and Commonwe,Ith rolls used in the check.

Commonwealth Division.

Brisbane Oxley ... Wide Bay

719 7<'5 403 I

35 2,740 15 1,692

6 258

Total ...

10 3,494 2,423 um i-­

... 7,283 ------------.-------

Hon. J. G. Appel.]

242 Addre<s in Reply. [ASSE'YIBLY.] Address in Reply.

Then I have this further memorandum, dated 16th July, 1914-

''A further check of the 1914 Common­'wealth roll just issued for the Brisbane mbdivision of the Brisbane division,

'shows that out of the first 4,425 names ·thereon there are 473 names which were removed from the State roll for Bris­bane in 1912 and 1913."

Tho'c arc all official figures which have been taken out by the officers of the department, ·and they are confirmed by the officers of the 'Commonwealth Electoral Department, be­·cause I find in connection with the evidence given before the Commonwealth Royal Com­mission on the electoral law and its adminis­tration that on lOth May, Mr. Edward Bar­

:ker Dent, an employee in the Commonwealth •Electoral Office in Brisbane, said-

,, He had found that the Queensland rolls contained many thousands more names than did the index. They were purging the index and rolls, and had discovered that there were 30,000 names on the rolls which should not have been there. In the case of 6,000 or 8,000, the names appeared on two, three, four, and even five different rolls."

I have given hon. members actual evidence .of name< which I have official documents here to show were on two rolls. but we have this statement made by a Commonwealth official that there are names which are on as n.any as five rolls. He further said-

.. He found the rolls for :iY~aranoa, Wide Bay, Her?,ert. Capricornia, and Brisbane verv bad.

That is the evidence of an of:liletl2' of the Commonwf'alth Electoral Depa:rtYr,ent in Brisbane. I requestE'd the Government Sta­tistician, :Ur. Thornhill \Veedon, to make a computation of the number of enrollable persons in the State of Queensland, and he writes rne: --

"Bureau of Statistic:', ''Brisbane, 16th July, 1914.

"RE ADCLTS QcALIFIED FOR EXROL)!EXT FXDER CO)DIOXWEALTH FRAXCHISE AcT, 1902.

" Sir.-In reS]'u!lSe to a rec:uc't of even date from ::'IIr. Chuher, I have the honour to inform you that I estimate there were 3~3.282 persons entitled to enrolment undPr th,, l Jmmonwealth Franchise Act of 1902, a', at 31st December, 1913."

J'\o'N, the number enrolled on the Common­wc:!lth rolls is 373,000 odd, or an excess, if there i9 any value in that estimate, of 29,718 , lectors. So far :cs hon. members opposite ancl their party are concerned, the Common­W<'alth roll •nay be an advantageous roll, but "' far ;:s this party is concerned it is not a pure roll, aml what we have striven to arrive <it is a pure roll. \Ve have striven to see that every pcrfcon who pos,essed the necessary qualiflc<1tion "'as placed on the roll of the .l',:rict fm- which he was entitled to be nnolled. Every precaution was taken, first of all. bv a house-tD-house canvass to see that pver:v p~rson entitled to be enrolled was SD c>nrolled, and that, likewise. the name of every person who had lost his qualification, and 'Of every person who had died meanwhile, was erased from the roll, so that, as far as possible-, we might get a true expression of opinion from those whD were actually entitled to give such an opinion in connection with the affairs of that particular electorate. As I stated, the whole of the criticism of hon. members opposite was dire-cted against the Elections Act which is I)-OW in force in the

[Han. J. G. Appel.

State of Queensland, and I think I have proved conclusively from official documents that, as far as the two Elections Acts are concerned, there can be no comparison, and that as far as the rolls themselves are con­cerned, there can be no comparison, The 1\rst elpction at which it was possible to test the machinc,:v of the new Elections Act was the election for the electorate of ="ormanby. The returning officer for that electorate wired from Rockhampton as follows:-

" Xew Act and system ballot-papers worke·d Yery smoothly and expeditiously; decided improvement."

That "as an answer to an inquiry which pmanated from tlw under Home Secretary, .:ts follows : -

" How did new Act and new system ballot-papers work in actual practice this election? Reply concisely by urgent 1vire .. :

Here is the telegram received from the returning officer, and here is a copy of the tr'legram which was sent to him.

::Yir. THEODORE : What is the date 1 The HO::ME SECRETARY: The 6th Feb­

ruarv, 1914. Tho hon. member for Rock­hampton, speaking in connection with the Elections Act, compared the enrolment for the vear' 1912 and 1914 in certain electorates, and- said that it 'omned significant that in : ome electorates represented by members opposite names were being taken off the rolL The Principal Electoral Registrar has fur­nicchNl mp with the following statement:-

,,The following table shows the enrol­ment in the electorates mentioned at the different times indicated in the table:-

:j '" ~i

Electorate. ~- "' ~

" 5. ~

" "' "" ---------,--Bl'isb~WP. . 1i ii, i72 ; ll~3;.11 l''llrtitlHlo Yalley ! ..t.59H · :J,Cil.) 11ertlnr ... : .!J,fi-J,2 i 3,08B 'I'OOWOlll" ... I .J.<,MH I 4,~!3 Rockh~1~1pton .. ... i 4,5S8 '4,683 Ft!Zl'O\' .. ... ', 4,184! ·i,642

• ...=:

t· " ~ ~ -~-:!- •.H):)' J. 86" ._.:1~111 J:4:ll t,210 I - •• , llH -t.,7f!O i 5,1Gl 3, 9 12 II 4.('76 4,51 t i 4,Gl c

---,-, It.~~ilith~ be se~~hat-,- exc;pt i~ the cas:· of Brisbune, Fortitude Valley, nnd Rocklwmpton, the enrolment is gr:·ater now than in January, 1912, and an increase is noted in the suburban cl<:c­tm ates of ::\1crthyr, Toowong, and Fitz­rov, probably due to the larger number o( houses Cl'PCtPcl as WOrkers' cdweJlings.

"In regard to Brisbane, J'vferthyr, and Fortitude Vallev, a considerable increase in enrolment just prior to the electiom at the tim0 of the gcncr:ol strike >Vas ap­parent. Since then, in August. 1913, a complete canvass was made by the police of all the electorates mentioned in this table, and as a result the enrolment was rcdncPd to the frgures shown when the To lis wer<' issued in January, 1914. Since then the <.'nrolment has been incrc·asing.

"The reduction of the number of electors in Brisbane, Fortitude Valley, and Rockhampton may be due to the fact that an increase is noted in the suburban electorates on account of the reason mentioned above."

It must be apparent to hon. members that

Absence of the Pres!dent. [21 ,TuLY.j Printers and Newspapers Bill.

considerable population is drifting from the towns into the suburban areas. Any hon. member who has occasion to go to different places outside the metropolis must have observed from week to week and month to month that there is a large and increasing population in the different suburbs, coming unquestionably, as those tables show, from the more thickly populated centres. The han. member for Rockhampton made no charge, but \Vas anxious that I should procure him information on this particular subject, and I am only too pleased to be able to give him what appears to be an explanation of the ,·ariation in the numbers on the rolls in those electorates. I have as far as possible replied cat<'g-orically to the charges and criticisms of hon. members opposite. Apparently the hon. and learned leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Herbert-! particu· larly emphasise the hon. and learned leader of the Opposition-have founded their chargeR on hearsay evidence.

Mr. RYAx: Not at all.

The HOME SECRETARY: A" a member of that learned profe,'lion, of which I am cPCtain!v proud. as I am a member of it mvself. ·he knows how unreliable and un­worthY of Credence is Cvidencf' Of that kind. Yet the hon. member, from his position on

those benches as leader of the [10.30 p.m.] Opposition. has gone outside

his legitimate functions in en­dNn•uring to mislead the> eleclors of the Stall'. It is a regrettable circumstance that criticism of that kind-criticism \vhich is absolutely without foundation--

}lr. RYAX: Absolutely true.

The HOME SECRETARY: Criticism which is ab·-olutely without foundation, f'lJOuld be offered to the House. and that after I have produced official and documen­tary evidence the han. member should still as, ert that his criticiem is corred. Then all I can sav is that he is ,,till more unworthv of r r"cl"iwe. and I believe the electors of the State of Queensland will value at their true worth the criticisms and charges made \vithout founclat ion bv that hon. member and other hon. m0mbe1 ~ of the party sitting nppo.sit0.

:\lr. HAMILTOX (Gregory): I beg to n:ov<> til>.' adj onrnnwnt of the debate.

Que,tion put and passed.

Tlw l'c'sumption of tho debate was made "n Orcl~r of th~ Day for Tuesday next.

The I-Iou'~P, adjournt'd at thirty-one minutes ~)ast 10 o'<lnzk.

243