Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 1937

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Seed7 Bill. (9 NOVEMBER.) Questions. 1213

TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER, 1937.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. Pollock, (Jregory) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

QL"ESTIONS.

AGmcuLTURAL BANK FoRECLOSURES, BooNJIE.

Mr. CLAYTON (Wide Bay), for Mr. \VALKER (Cooroora), a.sked the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock-

" 1. In how many cases has the Agricul­tural Bank foreclosed in respect of farms situated in the Boonjie (now called Topaz) area, l'oi orth Queensland?

"2. In how manv of such cases have eviction proceeding; been instituted? "

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE _\ND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) replied-

" 1. The Agricultural Bank has since its inception foreclosed in respect of twenty cases in the parish of Bartle Frerc. in which the Topaz area is situated.

" 2. Eviction proceedings by applica­tion to the court ha.vc been instituted in one case only."

STOCK Ow:\ED BY ME}IBERS OF SELECTORS'

ASSOCIATION.

Mr. ED\YARDR (Tanango), for :\Ir. BELL (Stanley). asked the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock-

" In view of his statement that he had been told that the members of the Selectors' _\ssociation had more stock than the members of the United Gra.ziers' Association, can he state the approximate number of sheep and cattle and/ or the number of cattle owned by the members of the Selectors' Association?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) replied-

,, The hon. member is referred to the eecretary of the Selectors' Association."

Ax:<XAL Il.EPORT OF DEPART1IRNT OF LABOUR AXD IxDcSTRY.

l\Ir. :VIAXVi'ELL (1'oozcong), without notice. acked the Secretary for J..abour and Indu,try-

" \Yhen mav this House expect to­rccei;·c the an;mal n'port of the Depart­nent of Labour and Industry'"

1214 Health Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] State Electricity Commission Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOL:R A~D INDUSTRY (Hon. ::\1. P. Hync>, Towns­vi/if) replied-

" I am hopeful that the report will he t.abled to-morrow."

PAPERS.

The following papers were laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Sixteenth annual report of the Com­mis,ioner of Main Roads, being for the year '1936-1937.

Report of the Department of Harbours and Marine for the year 1936-1937.

The following papers were laid on the table:-

Order in Council, .dated 28th October, 1937, under the Workers' Compensa­tion Acts, 1916 to 1936.

Ordinance, dated 4th November, 1937, under the City of Brisbane Acts, 1923 to 1936.

Orders in Council under the Supreme Court Act of 1921.

INDUSTRIAL CONCILIATION A~D ARBI1'RATION ACTS AMEND::\1ENT BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY (Hon. M. P. Hynes, Towns­villt): I move-

" That the House will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the deoirable­ness of introducing a Bill to amend ' The Industrial Conciliation and Arbi­tration Acts, 1932 to 1936,' in certain particulars."

Question put and passed.

WORKERS' ACCOMMODATIO::\f ACTS Al\IEKDMENT BILL.

l:-!ITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR LABO.GR AND INDUSTRY (Hon. ::\L P. Hyncs, Towns­vi/i.): I move-

. " That the Home will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirable­ness of introducing a Bill to amend 'The \Vorkers' Accommodation Actc 1915 to 1921,' in certain particulars." '

Question put and passed.

HEALTH BILL.

Il'iiTIATI0:-1.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AC\D HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. ::\1. Hanlon, lthacal: I move-

" That the House will. at its present sitting, resolve itself info a Committee of the \Vholc to consider of the desirable­ness of introducing a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to public health."

Question put and passed.

STATE ELECTRICITY CO~IMISSION BILL.

SECO);D READING.

The PRE::\IIER (Hon. IV. Forgan Smith,. .11ad ay) [10.38 a.m.l: I move-

" That the Bill be now read a second tin'le."

The futur!' contl'Jl of electrical supply is a subject that has exercised the minds of rnanv Goverrnnents in manv countries. That it sl;ou!d assume such gre'at importance is natural when we realise the great extent to which electricity for lighting, heat, and motive power has entered into the con­veniences and necessities of modern life_ ?vfost countries have appreciated the fact that an economical supply of electricity not on lv reacts to the social benefit of the veople · but also has important definite econornic advantages.

Possibly the n10.st outstanding fact that en1erges frotn any survey of n1odern indus­trial conditions is that what has been aptly termed a life-giviEg trinity (I refer­to light, heat and motive power) can be created in its entiretv from one source-electricity. ·

The uses to which it can be put are con­tinually being augmented. In future we must look towards the increased mechanisa­tion of industry as a natural evolutionary movement, and there is solid ground for the conviction that electricity in future will hold an even greater place as a source of motor power in industry than it does at> present. In the nineteenth centurv indus­trial development was centred in the steam engine ; to-day the march of production is­headed by the electric motor.

In visioning the possibilities of the future, we must con:;;.ider how agriculture, too, may with advantage to all become a liberal cunsumer of electrical energy. A few years ago, farmers thoug·ht of electricity on farms cnlv in terms of the convenience that would con',e from electric light; but everywhere to-day they see clearly that electrical power­for lighting purposes., although important, represents but a very small part of the uses to which it can be put.

I mention thos<> facts not onlv to show the important p<~.rt that electricity plays, and will play, in mode.rn life. but to cmpha,ise the jmtification for enlightened countries to formulate their ekctricity policy on broad national lines, and, ·where neces­~ary, to subordinate private and local interests to the national wellbeing.

Of course, there may l]e some divergence of opinion a" to the action that should be tak0n to achieve this desirable end. Vlfe can profit from the experience of other countries. but we have to remember that, as conditions differ vastlv in different countri<s, what may be eminently sui table under one :;et of ccnditions may require modification when applied to our own cir­cumstances. But it is noteworthv that the universal prescnr.-clay tendency is toward& the State 0\Yncrship or control of public utilities th·t are concerned with this imJlOrtant commodity.

I mentioned at an earlier stage of this Bill that the intention underlying the legis­lation on the .-tarute-book in this State was that the supply of electricity should be 1egarded as a public service. That is clearly

State Ekctricity [9 NOVE;\!BER.] ComJ;!ission Bill. 1215

perceiYed b:v a reference to the Orders in C'ouncil under which electric undertakings <>peratc. Under the Etectric Light and Power Act .of 1896, which in many respects 'followed the English legislation of 1882, ·!Jrdors in Council could be granted to any local authority, companv, or person, authoris­ing it to supply enmgy for any public or private purpose within its area. If a. local authority did not itself obtain the right ·of supply for its own district in the first instance, it was intended bv Parliament that it should have the right 'to take over the ''upply at tho end of a stipulated period.

It is clear, as I have said. that the underlying intention of our legislation. even at that early date, was that the supply of <eleetrici ty in Queensland should be regarded as. a public service. I have previously pomted out, however, that the present unsatisfactory situation ha.s grown out of that legislation, which, if it did contemplate ultimate public ownership, has Iwvertheless made thr· immediate achievement of that "bjoctive a. matter of great difficulty legally and financially. W1dely varying dates of ·expiry of Orders in Council held by the largest private electric authorib- in tho State and the complex legal and financial -position attendant on compulsory piece­meal acquisition under the existing law, make a clarification of the posit'on absolutely <essential if the problem is to be soh·ed anrl the electrical development of the whole 'State is to proceed on orderly lines.

From the time >vhen the first elertricitv legislation wa;; enact<ed in this State. remark­-able developments hav<> taken place. and ·enormous growth has b0en registered in the -electricity supply industry.

The chang-e from direct to alternating current undoubt0dly paved the way for progress, for it made possible the trans­mi~sion of electricfll energy over consider­able distances. The advance in technical practicP-in particular. the development of three-phase alternating current and of the -el<'etric motor for industrial purposes, to which I have alreadv made reference-has changed the whole 'outlook of electricity supply. With this extension of the effective radius of distribution bevond the limits of mere local authoritY cli,h:icb. it has become increaBingly evident that some form of c<>n-ra.l control is necessarv to <>nsure that the

technical development ~f the industry shall proceed on a properly co-ordinated basis, so that eloctricitv mav be available at low eost, not in· a· few' small and speciallv fa vourcd area.s. but o\·~r \Yide areas and to as many people a·' po"ible.

I haYe giYen considerable study to th~se possibilities. I recall with pardonable pride that m:v period of office as Se< retary for Public \Yorks synchronised with the greatest electrical dLYelopment in this State. Gm·ern­ments with which I haYe been aswciated have bPen fully alive to the remarkable growth of this i'ndustry and to the fact that ultimate public ownership must be the .objective. It was with a full realisation of this fact that Labour Governments m Queemland from 1917 to 1929 limited, as far as practicable, the issue of Orders in Council for eledricity supply to local anthori­tiPs. the vie\v being held that co-ordination om1ld be much more easilY obtained when the "rpply was in the innds of nublic .bodi~s than if private enterprise wa; pel'­.rr.ittcd to beco,nc 'till more firmly entrenched

in a spher<> in which the people were vitally cone< rned. A striking instance of this was the ::\Ietropolitan Electricity Board in Bris­bane, which merged the interests of fourteen locaJ authorities which were also electrical authorities before the creation of Greater Brisbane.

In contradistinction to the action of Labour Governments, it is significant that a Govern­ment composed of members politically opposed to ns took advantage of their short term of office between 1929 and 1932 to grant Orders in Counc>il for long periods to private undertakings. Their first con­sideration in electricity supply was the interests of privat0 enterprise as oppose-d to the welfare of the public. Certain it is that they had no proper appreciation of the importance of so directing the elec­tricity policy of the State that effective State control, leading to eventual public ownership, would be achieYed within a reasonable period. I can only hope that since they relinquished office they are better able to see matters in a broad per­spective, for if so they will subscribe to the Yiew that is h<>ld' bv all shadE·< of political thought to-da:v-that if the wheel" of time could be rolled back the electricity supply industry at its inc<'ption would have been effectively regulated and controlk.c] in the public interest.

It is unquc,tionable that the absence of dfcctiYe regulator,· control has renrltnd in Pconom1c >Yastefulness. \Ye have a striking mstance of that in the metropolis. for in ;"'That n1ay be regarded aR the most pronlis­mg- centre of deYelopment from an elec­trical standpoint-the Greater Brisbane area -we ha YC the spectacle of two power house a gupplying electricity to consun1E'rs \Yithin arljacent -districts.

Hon. members will recall the abortive negotiations that took place between the Brisbane City Council and the Citv Electric Light Company, Limited, before the council constructed its power house. I do not pro­pose to enter into a discussion of the causes of the failure of these negotiations, the success of which would have avoided this duplication of generating stations; but I do want to emphasise the point that it was the abs0nce of effective regulatory control that result_ed in this duplication and waste, and to pomt out how necessary it is, at this stage of our deYelopment, to take action to prevent a repetition of such an uneconomic state of affairs.

This absence of complete control or if I ma:y put it in another way, the l~ck of a p~hcy for the orderly development of elec­tricity supply, is by no mE'ans singular to Queensland. Other countries have had to grapple with the problem, and I propose to refer brief!,· to action that has been t•d<en in other countries, and also in StatE's in the Commonwealth of Australia.

Hon. members are possibly aware of the extent to which the organisation for the supply of electricity in Great Britain has been influenced by the Central Electricity Board, which controls what is now uniYersallv known as the "grid" system. '

The name "grid," by the way, was chosen by some genius who saw in the trunk trans­mission linb of Great Britain running from tho Highlands of Scotland to the South Coast of England, some resemblance to the common grid iron .

Hon. W. Forgan Smith.]

1216 State Elect1·icity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

The gri.d itself is a network of some 4,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines covermg almost the whole country and linking all the large and efficient " selected " stations. This permits the generation of nearly the whole of the electrical require­ments of the country in about 130 selected C'tations, of which fifteen provide over half, thus greatly reducing the cost of production. It also permits. very large savings in capital cost of generatmg plant, because, by means of the grid interconnection, each station can obtain support from the others in the event of breakdown. thus reducing gTeatly the amount of ~pare or ·· stand-b~· n plant required. As one authority aptly puts it-

" The grid, in effect, acts as an insur­ance scheme, spreading the risk over a large number of stations instead of each having to provide its own insurance fund."

The board does not own the sele£ted stations, hut it controls their operation, and the surplus of generated energy above the requirements of the owners of the stations is carried over the grid to numerous points at which supplies are tapped off to other supply authonties.

Not only does the board carry out for the industry the function of generation an'd main transmission; its staff have also co-operated with the staffs of the supply authorities both in improving engineering technique and in securing the transfer to the supply authorities' systems of large blocks of industrial power previously obtained from private generating plant.

The aim of the Government of Greal Britain in promoting the grid system was to provide a cheap and abundant supply of electricity throughout the country as one of a number of items of post-war reconstruc­tion, and the immediate practical result is that in Great Britain nearly every habitable part of the country is within the reach of electric power !"crvicc

Indeed, the production and wholeeale side of the industry has undmgone a radical transformation since the establishment of the Central Elertricity Board only a fe\Y years ago.

But I remind hon. members that the establishment of the gri.d system has not by any means soh-eel the problem of the orgam­sation of electricity supply in Great Britain in all its aspects. I mention that fact, not only for general information, but to indi­cate to the House, as I proceed, how \Ye in Queensland can profit from the experi­ence of other countries. In Great Britain the reorganisation of generation was an essential preliminary to a detailed investiga­tion of the organisation of distribution, for the problems arising in distribution are CI\tirely different from. and far more com­plex than, those arising in generation.

I take .this opportunity of expre"ing my apprecwtwn of the courtes': with which the chairman of the board to which I haYe referred placed n 11 the available informa­tion at my disposal.

As a proof of my statement as to the complex nature of distribution problemf I need only point out that what ,1s probably the most expert committee that has ever examined the problem-I refer to the McGo\\·an Committee on Electricitv Distri­bution appointed bv the Briti,h Go\·ernment in July, 1935-sugge,, ted that one of the

[Hon. W. Forgan Smith.

('au~es for the unsa.tivfaetory state of rctai I electricitY ·distribution in G;·t:tt Britain Vi"dS

the larg-e' number of separate electric authori­ties, which did not forn1 an cconotnic unit. Thev came to the conclusion that there was an 'econo1nic ~ize of plant or undcrtnl;:jug that gaYe the best sen·ice at the lm.'e't price for any giycn conditions. 'I'his rJOint~ thcv ,aid, had not been taken into cml­sideration in planning the areas of the Yari­ou:-; elcrtric anthoritiet:'. Arts of ParliallH:'!lt allowed small pnblic bodies to take o1·er the distribution of the clectricitv in the area they comrollcd \Yithont regard' to the posi­bilitic3 of Honomic supply. As a result the cost of distribution wa:-- higher tha!l it ought to be.

Tlw McGowan Committee held that !he financia.l re~ourc£ ~ of large undertaking~ enabled them to take a long-range Yiew of deYelopmcnt. af'siF-ted then1 to negot.iate tnore favourable contracts for the purchaeing of c:tbles. apparatus, and other requisites. and permitted them IQ adopt nrogressive schemes of commercial development by offering- facili~ liu for hire-purchase of electrical apparu.tus and a~f:i ,, tC'd wiring of prcrnises., and low tariffs.

~\part from tlwsc' advantages, the com­mittee emphasised that. from the point of Yiew of future development-

" The elimination of a large number of smaller undertakings and their amal­gamation or co-ordination with larger units is the only practical means whereby substantial progress can be made towards standardisation of systems and methods of charge, and also towards a greater uniformity in actual charges."

It will interest the House to know that the report of this expert committee gives, support to the contention that the onlv satisfactory scheme is the ultimate taking-ovecr of the whole of the electricity supplies by the Government; that this will neceositate the consolidation of a large number of area& now supplied bv local authorities and priYate companies; an'd that for the fulfilment of such a scheme it is ncce~sarv to deuy the right of purchase of certain local authoritie~ and to give mch right of purchase to th0 Government or their representatives onlv; and that it is further necf ssary that arrange~ ments sh<:mld be made by which the larger undertakmgs should absorb the emallcl' undertakings adjacent to them.

Finally, among the principles laid down by that committee. "as the nccessit;· of compulsory power,; to bring about these amalgamations, and the importance of creat­ing authoritic~ bupplyi11g large area:;; of a mixed urban and rural character.

I have dealt at some length with the position in Great Britain, but I feel that the importance of the legislation now l)eing enacted warrants rnorc than a passing refer­ence to experience from ·which '\Ye, in a country on the t hresholcl of grcater develop­mcm, may derive much lx>nefit.

Then we haYe the experience of South Africa. where it was realised soon after the Great \Yar that the then recent devclop­IIH'nt:;:. of k:ng·-distance transmission had made it desir~ble to extend the areas of supply of the larger generating stations, thus rendering current a1·ailable over wide areas and prevcming such isolated local deYelopmcnts as had taken place in Great Britain up to the \Var.

State Electricity [9 NovE~fBER.] Commission Bill. 1217

:'\c"~ Zealand affords another instance of th0 public control of electricity. An out­stan•ling- feature in electricity supply there i' the yery ext••nsive water~power wealth of the countrv. This influences the whole trencl of cfectricity supply, and places that Dominion in a very fortunate position. Electricity is generated by the Government. and is distributed to a number of power ·boards, which have been set up throug-hout the country. One of the m~st striking impre"ions I formed during a visit to New Zealand was the extent to which rural development had been fostered by the pro~ :vision of lov.~~priced electricity.

In Tam1ania, also, a h,-dro~electric scheme ie in operation and supplies electricity at -comparatively low prices. This has been possible because the existence of a huge demand bv the zinc works at Risdon has reduced unit generating costs and spread loads.

Of course, as I have previously said, con~ rlitions differ so vastlv in different countries that what ma,~ be eminently suitable under one· sot of conditions may require m<Jdifica~ tion when applied to the circumstances oi another. The outstanding fact, however, in all countries io that private and local intE'l'<>sts are subordinated to the national wellbeing.

I am reminded of a maxim that had its origin in the twelve t,ables ·of the laws of Rome manv \ear;, before the Christian era -" The we.lfare of the people is the highest law." ~his is a maxim that Cieero in his work on the Roman law emphasised and the IHlcessitv for every State to observe, and it has ~ vvon almost universal recognition. In ,effect, it means that the interests of the individual sho,uld give way to the welfare of the community.

Coming closer to our own State, we have further evidence of the necessity of some form of co~ordination and control to pre~ :vent duplication. In New South \Vales an Electricity Advisory Committee has been set up, itB purpose being to advise the Minister so as to gain the utmost efficiency.

Now let us turn to Victoria, which pro~ vi-des a striking example of extensive elec~ trical development resulting from planned control in the public interest. Hon. mem~ hers who have studied the report of the royal commission appointed by my Govern­ment will remember this statement-

" From first~hand information regard~ ing the activities of the State Electricity Commission of Victoria we are of the opmwn that the extensive electrical -development in that State could not pos~ siblv have been achieved by any other method.

" Although Queensland conditions are not strictly comparable to tho"l in Vie~ toria. we feel that any scheme of reorganisation in this State must pro­vide for ultimate public ownership and control by a similar organisation having powers similar to those of that body."

Victoria's position is more nearly akin to that of England, except that in Victoria there are brown coal deposits which enable electricity to be generated on a huge scale.

Hon. members will recall that in 1919. when the Victorian Government appointed a committee to inquire into and report on the

1937-2 Q

step' to -be taken to obtain the ultimate co~ordination and uniflcation of all elec~ trical undertakings in Victoria, that State was mainl:-' dependent upon imported sup­plies of black coal for the generation of electricity and in-dustrial purposes. As a result of the report of that committee, the Victorian Parliament constituted a State Electricity Commission to give effect to the national desire that "the State should be made perfectly Belf-contained in electricity and enjoy a growing independence in regard to all fuels.

It is unnecessarY for me to elaboraJc on the splendid wori< of that commission in opening up the extensiye brown coal depmits at Yallourn, but it is interesting to reflect that the first work of that commission was to plan the steps to be taken to obtain the ultimate co~ordination and unification of all electricity~supply undertakings in Victoria and the adoption of such standards of plant and equipment, and system frequency and voltage, as would permit the efficient inter­connection of such undertakings when required.

That is the very work to which. as pro­vided in this Bill, the State Electricitv Commission in Queensland will -direct its attention. Particular consideration will be paid to the need for generating olectricit;c' by the use of Queenoland coal and water power in preference to imported fuel, and to the extcr.,;ion of electricity supply into areas not at present reticulated. Indeed, with the excellent example furnished b:v the Victorian commission, there is every reason to believe that the legislation now before the House will usher in a new era in elec­trical development in Queensland.

That brings me more particularly to the Bill under review. The main features. of course, have been fully circulated in the synopsis accompanying the Bill on the first reading, an-d the_re is very little remaining to me to emphasrse.

To put it shortly, the Bill is epoch-making in that, for the first time since the original 1896 Electric Light and Power Act, a move has been made in the direction of co~ordina­ting and controlling the supply of electricitv in and for the public benefit and require~ ments. and at the same time obYiating mucn unnecessary duplication and expense which would invariably follow were the existing undertakings all acquired by the Crown and vested in an operating commission. The Bill brings Queensland into line with other enlightened countries in this important matter, and we are sanguine that, having in the drafting of this legislation profited by the experience of the countries to which I have referred, and having had due regard to our peculiar circumstances, the future development of electricity in Queensland will be eminently successful.

If thB ,;chemc is succe,sful, great benefit., will accru9 to .a vast area. in South~Eastern Queensland. For a considerable time, many areas, especially in the North Coast, have been agitating for a supply of electricity; but their ea pacity to finance electricity undertakings, either individuall"- or as an aggregation of shires, has been and is limited. These local authoritioo, as the royal commrsswn has pertinently stated, have concluded that it is preferable that such loan funds as arc available should be expended on road and public improvements

Hon. W. Forgan Smith.]

1218 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

of a like nature, rather than on electricity supply. Perhaps this outlook has been influenced by the competitive efforts of the Brisbane City Council and the City Electric Light Company, Limited, to supply these areas. Be that as it may, it is clear. that the most economic method of supply 1s as visualised in the scheme that will be the subject of negotiation between the commis· sion and the company.

Fron1 tiJne to time suggestions have been made that thc:oe shires should combine and receive bulk supply from a central power house. Let us examine that proposal. It would involve the investment bv the local authorities of considerable sum; of money for the purpose of reticulating their respec· tive areas, and even if n1oney \vero avail· able, the resultant costs to the colbtmier would be higher than the tariffs it is pro· posed to charge under this scheme.

Let me give a concrete example. Suppose Caboolture and Kilcoy shires were operating as one joint authority, drawing electricity in bulk from a metropolitan power house. The capital to be expended by the two shires would be approximately £20,000.

The annual operating cost based on the purchase of 62,000 units for Kilcoy shire and 112.000 units for Caboolture shire. would be £7.080. That would require an average selling price of 9. 74d. a unit. On the other hand, if the tariff was 10 per cent. over Brisbane prices. the estimated revenue for these "hires in the third vear would be £1.970, or an average of 2.7id. a unit.

In other words. if these two shires were operating aa one joint authority and were supplying at the price< that wtlf be charged under the scheme provided for in this Bill, tloe,, would register a ]o;s of approximately £5,000 pet· annum in the proce". It is clear, therefore. that at a tariff of 10 per cent. above Brisbane prices the shires could not pay dJcir wtt-y working under a scheme of bulk supply. such as \vas .mggested by the Brh;bane City Council.

I want hon. members to realise, as they doubtle"' do. that a tariff of 10 per cent. aboYe Brisbane price~ is onlv practicable because, under this proposal, 'a large elcc· tncity authonty would be able to distribute Jts he~nry_ OY~rhead charges for generation and dtiitnhnbon over a lnrge base load.

On t~':' other hand. the base loads of joint authorities would be small and anv slight ?enefit they might obtain fr~m buying energy m bulk at a low price, as opposed to generatmg their own electricity, would be more than neutralised b·i the m·erhead charges ineurred in instailing .di~tribution net\vorks in COlnparativelv S!)arsclv popu-JatecJ ar£as. · ·

An important point to remember ia that unkss the electricity tariffs are competitive with rates for other forms of power and lighting, electricity will be regarded as a luxury and its use will be limited, whereas if tariffs are low electricity will be regarded as a necessity, as it undoubtedly is, and its use will be groat and widespread.

Other instanced could be given. Let us take, for example, the position at Beau· desert. This information, by the \Yay. may assist the hon. member for Fassifern to understand the position in his 0\Yn ·district, and ma:~· alco answer the query raised in an earlier debate bv the hon. member for Aubigny as to wh'ether local authorities

[Hon. lY. Forgan Smith.

might he unjustly treated in the echeme of acquisition.

At Beaudesert the electricity undertaking is at present operated by .the shire. council. 'l'he operating characteristics of that un~er­taking necessitate the chargt_ng of. ':ery lngh tariffs, together with the nnpos1t10n of. a special rate in the benefited area, w h10h embraces the township only, m order to maintain financial stability. Furthermore, since the supply is direct current, an ?xten­aion into the surrounding rural areas 1s not possible. The adjoining . shire of Tam· bourine is at present supplied with alternat­ing current by the City _Electric Light Com­pany, Limited, whos€ n1a1ns a~'e now. approxl­matelv 10 miles in a stratght !me from Be a udesert.

Let us consi-der then whether it is prefer­able to absorb Beaudesert in an undertaking in which the advantage;; of a large base load exist. At present the consumer of 240 units of electricitv in Beaudeccrt pays approximately £9. 'tnder the tariff sug­gested in this comprehensive scheme he would pay approximately £3 6s. f~r the same number of units. Mr. Speaker, ts not that a substantial benefit?

But apart from that the Bill affords ample safeguards for acquisition, and there are certainlv no reasonabh· grounds for expect­ing that any hardship will be inflicted on local authorities as a result of the opera­tion of the proposed scheme.

Let me be clearlv understood on this matter. \Ye have an "inefficient method now, and as I said at an earlier stage of this Bill. we propose to replace it by an efficient method. One thing we have to guard against in accomplishing that efficiency is over­C'apitalisation. 'rherefore~ 111 asse"·s1ng . any compensation payable. due regard must be had to what is a fair and rPasonable sum. The Government are not iriYiting the old authorities to sell out at an inflated price. Great benefits will accrue from co-operation in the public interest. and I am sure all parties will act reasonably. At all events, it will be the -clutv of the State Electnctty Commi,,ion to see" that a. fair deal is given and that the public interest is protected.

Let me now examine the po,sition of the Routh Coast area, embracing the towns of Coolangatta and Southport and the shtre of Nerang. Hon. members know that for some considerable time the South Coast area has been agitating for cheaper electricity.

The roval commission considered the prob­lem in ,",!!. its aspecb. It considered .. for example. the effect that \vould be obtamed if these undertakings were an1algmnatcd, and administered bv a combined authority, par­ticularlv if one of the t"·o existing power honces ·could be dispensed with. It con­sidered also the alternative of the SUJlply of· energy in bulk to a cm_nbined authority, preferablv a county counctl or power board that would control the complete chstnbutwn svstem \vithin the area, bu5,ing energy in hulk from Brisbane at ib northern boundary.

After consi-dering all these' aspects. both from a financial and engineering standpoint, the commission came to the conclusion that the South Coast areas could be supplied with electrical energy at ~" cost aprrcciably lower than now obtains onlv bv mcludmg them in a comprehensive scheme 0mbro.cing a highly developed area of concentrated load.

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.] Commission Bill. 1219

That the cost in these areas will he con­siderably reduced under the ne'v scheme is clearly seen from the following figures:-

Supply of 240 ['nits per Annum.

Southport

·Coolangatta

Existing Rate.

£ s. d. G 0 0

6 g 3

New Rate under

Comprehensive Scheme.

£ s. d. 3 G 0

3 6 0

Is it not o~vious that the Government :are adopting a wise course in scientificallv organising the electricit·.- supply m the inter<'sts of the people? ·

If anv hon. member has anv doubts as to the · benefits to be derived from the orderly planning and scientific organisation for which the Government are now legislat­ing, these doubts should be dispelled by a reference to the comprehensive table it had prepared showing the comparative costs of domestic energy in areas outside the citv of Brisbane under present tariffs and under' the tariffs provided for in the comprehensive scheme. The table will be useful to hon. :nembers, and I suggest it be incorporated In "Hansard." ·

Mr. SPEAKER: It is most unusual to have a table incorporated. I have previ­ously refused similar applications.

The PREYIIER: I ha Ye moved on several occasions that that be done, but if you rule otherwise I shall read the wholce of the table. I suggest, howeYer, that, inasmuch as tables in the Budget are taken as read, there is no sound reason why they should not also be taken as read on this occasion.

}lr. SPEAKER : Order ~ The reason why I ha.-e alrce1dv ruled that tables should not be inserted in "'Hansard " without being read to the House is that an hon. member, i£ he chose, could have anything inserted in " Hansard" that had no relation whatev<'r to what was being stated to the House in the form of a speech. However, I h:n-e no doubt that if the Premier moves that the table ·be inserted in "Hansard ., the House will agree?

The PRE~IIER: I mo.-e to that effect.

Mr. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the table be inserted in " Han­sard" ?

Ho~Ol:RABLE lYIE~lBERS : Hear, hear !

The PREMIER: I thank hon. members for their courtesy.

Mr. BRA~D: It will be very handy for us.

The PREMIER: It wilL That is a benefit I am conferring upon hon. members opposite, with the usual generosity that I drsplay to them. (Laughter.)

Mr. MooRE: You overwhelm us.

The PREMIER : I hope the hon. gentleman will be able to bear up under it. The table referred to is as follows:-

Comparative Costs of Domestic Enerqy Consumption.

Locality. 2±0 480

£ 8. d. £ s. d. Tariff under Suggested

Rural Electrifica-tion Scheme .. 3 6 0 4 13 6

Existing Tariffs-Southport (one meter) 6 0 0 12 0 0 Coolangatta . . • . 6 8 3 11 15 1-} Beaudesert .. .. 9 0 0 15 7 6 Boonah 10 10 0 19 15 0 )fcswich (one ~~eterl:: 4 16 11 7 2 6

oowoomba (one meter) .. .. 4 15 0 7 0 0

Redcliffe .. .. 4 10 0 8 5 0 Nambour 6 15 0 12 0 0 Gympie (one meter):: 6 15 0 11 5 0

Truly, the slogan for this Bill might well be: " Electricity for the people at low prices and in abundance."

;'\or need there be anv fear that the exist­ing tariffs in the metropolitan area will suffer. Existing tariffs in Brisbane are verv reasonable in comparison with those in othu;­lar&'e centres of population. They will not be mcreasod, and adequate protection is pro­vided in the Bill of the interests of metro­politan consumers, in the area of the large base load.

I have already emphasised that the associa­tion of rural with urban areas is bv no means -detrimental to the urban areas, ·inas­much as a general advantage results where the whole area is sufficiently comprehensi,-e

LNITS PER ANNU:\f.

720 960 1,200 1,440

£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.

5 15 6 6 17 6 7 19 6 9 1 6

14 0 0 16 0 0 18 0 0 20 0 0 16 0 ~l 17 11 0 20 5 0 22 19 0 ,, 18 7 6 21 7 6 24 7 6 27 7 6 27 15 0 811 0 9 19 6 11 '8 0 12 16 6

8 10 0 10 0 0 11 10 0 13 0 0 11 5 0 14 5 0 17 5 0 20 5 0 15 15 0 19 10 0 23 5 0 27 0 0 15 15 0 20 5 0 24 15 0 29 5 0

to enable supplies to be given for all the principal purposes for which electricity can be used. Stated in another way, a scheme on a large scale can gi.-e to the people a better sen·ice at a lower price than a number of schemes working within the limit oi separate orders.

Now in considering public utilities on a large ;cale we are brought face to face with the social, political, and economic trend of the present century. That trend has been in the direction of collective ownership and control and management by the people them­selves. In the sphere of electricity the principle has been effected in various ways­by direct State control and ownership, by the municipalisation of such utilities, or by

Hon. W. Forgan Smith.]

1220 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

ownership and control by boards or commis­sions formed by statutory authority and representative of the State.

Municipalisation of such undertakings, it has been increasingly recognised, is fetterod by a limitation of area. Even in electricity supply, which for years has serv<>d as one of the examples of sound, successful municipal enterprise the local government area is not adequate \n all circumstances to achieYe the fullest development of the service on a large scale.

Katurally any Pxtension of the arRa would involve the local governing body in heavy financial responsibilities. particularly in the pioneering years, in order to develop the outside areas.

For ex<Lmple, could the Brisbane City Council, with its existing heavy capital liabilities, be reasonably expected to under­take the responsibility for electrical develop­ment outside the area of Greater Brisbane? Is it not evident that if the responsibility was assumed by it, Brisbane ratepayers would be adverselv affected? In other words, a local authority has no right to use its funds for extensions of a speculative character beYond its boundaries. It has no right to su])ply a service at a. loss that would result in a greater expense to its ratepayers. On the oth<>r hand, companie' that care to invPst in this direction are in a different class, because their losses are in no way a charge upon the State or a municipality. Thus it is that in the sphere of electricity supply at all events, the prin­ciple has received approval of State owner­ship or control by means of a public cor­poration functioning OYer a wider area than that of the mere local government area.

:"\ow from the communitv's point of view, the su~ce-' of the puqlic co-rporation owning and controlling a utility for the public turns on the extent of the capital burden it inher;ts from the comvanies it supplants. If from the outset the corporation is Oyer· capitalised and has difficulty in meeting the fixed or other interest charges on its capital, it is handicapped from the b0ginning, and the communitv interest is definitclv jeopar­dis-ed. \Ve, ;;s a Govcrnn1ent, are deter~ mined at all cost,, that this should not happen.

Reference has alread v been made to. the legal and financial difficulties attendant on immediate: compulsory acquisition. Shortly stated, one of the dangers of immediate acquisition under Bxisting circun1stancu3 is that tj1e State .would be paying for more than it actuailv obtained. As a cJnse­qu<>ncc, public 'administration costs >vould not bo reduced and the effect of having to provide relatiwly high intArest and redemp­tion charges, allied to the vroimble loss of considerable taxation reYenue. >Yould have a disturbing influence <n budgetary equilibrium.

There is another angie from which to look at the matter. If the State purchased these undertakings immediate!.; it would buy out the private owners, who thereafter would receive their income from other investments, perhaps inscribed stock or debentures. Such purchase would simply r<'sult in an exchange o,f public securities for company s<>cnrities. No additional employment would be created. \Vhereas my Government hold the view that in times like

[Hon. W. Forgan Smith.

the present, the duty of the State is so to utilise its availaqle funds that employment will be maximieed.

In any event, the important e'sential is control in the public interest. The questron d ownership can remain until later·, for in that way the State will save a vast sum of money that would otherwise be di,.sipated.

Let me, for a moment, deal with this ques­tion of control. It is not too much to say that the future of democracy will depend on its success in dealing with the problems of public ownership and control. Unques­tionably, to allow great monopoly industries to remain in private hands without control is to allow nothing less than a plutocracy.

V\'e have had examples in many countries of the first step in control, which took the form of investigation and publicity. Then, as the growth of monopoly appeared more clearly to call for regulation, we have seen growing up commissions or boards that were given large powers on such questions as the prices to he charged and the profits to be allowed. This Bill provides for a full mea­sure of public control, leading to ultimate public ownership.

In short. for a limited period we are pro-viding a policy of-

Delegated management, Complete and comprehensive control, A fair return to investors on capital

values ascertained, and Reasonable prices for the commodity

supplied. Large funds which have been accumulated

by many of the priYate companies wrll be harnessed for use in the public interest m a broad scheme of national development. In this way an immediate and substantial increase of the national debt will be avoided, and the State will be provided with a_ more or less predetermined pPriod in whrch to plan for the ultimate acquisition of a co~­solidated eloctri<"ity organisation that wrll ha.-e advancGd bevond the developmental stage. Stated in a'nother way : this means that when acquisition becom~s an accom­plished fact, any publi_c funds raised for the purpose wrll be entirely rcprodudrve.

The actual terms of payment fOJ.· th~ con­solidated undertaking upon the ultrmate purchase thereof by the Governor in Council will be the terms as agreed upon between the commission and th<' principal company mcntion<>d in this Bill. This agreement rs subject to the appro.-a! of the Governor in Council.

For the purpose of enabling the Go.-crnor in Council to exercise his riu;ht of purchas­irw electricity undertakings \including those at' the company) authority is given to the Governor in Council to issue debentures, which shall be guaranteed by the State. T~e principle adopted here follows that lard down in the Bureau of Industry Act, under which the bureau as a constructing works board is empowered, with the consent of the Governor in Council, to raise loans for con­struction purposes.

'rhe period of the consolidated order is. a matter for negotiation between the commrs­sion and the company. Hon. members wrll note that the Government have consrdcred it essential to stipulate that this period shall not be less than ten nor more than fifteen years.

State Electricity [9 NOVEMBER.] Commission Bill. 1221

The Government think that this period will enable a scientific echeme of electricity development to be accomplished in a way that will prevent hardship from being inflicted on the shareholders of private undertakings, and at the same time give the comrnission an opportunity of arranging in orderlv fashion for the communit,- to meet any financial obligation' entailed 'if acquisi­tion subsequently takes place.

A reaeonablo tenure of office has been )Wovidcd for the members of the commis­sion who will be appointed. This will enable continuity of planning to be achieved.

A great rp,ponsibility will devolve upon the commission. The success of their endeavours will depend not only on the initiative, courage, and honesty which they display in the important work entrusted to them, but also on the reasonableness of the partin with whom they are to negotiate an agreement for the co-ordinated scheme in South-Ea,tern Queensland.

I have nu wish to strike a discordant note, but this House shollld know that over the y.eaL-; when no regnlatory legislation \vas in operation public utilities in the hands of private companie-; overlooked their responoibilities to the community that pro­vided them with their charters, and beside., imposing on the community comparativBly high tariffs, returned gu.aranteed dividends to thei1· shareholders at rates verv much higher than those obtainable from an.;, other avenue of guaranteed security. A rPstatement of these bets may influence those private con­cerns to display that public spiritedness which wili enable their own interests to be equitably adjusted and the public interests to be fully safeg·uarded.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I repeat what I have said on many occasions: vYo have a great country; it is our duty to· develop it and to plan that development on sound lines. That a problem is difficult is no re.ason whv it 'hould not be tackled. \V c arc taciding a difficult problem, but in doing so \ve are l}eing fair to all interests. vYe are planning for tho electrical development of the State in a statesmanlike waY, and I am eatisfied that this Bill w·ill receiv·e the general support of the whole community, and that future generations will be much tlw b~Ucr for the action we are taking.

Mr. SPEAKER: The Premier has adopted an 1n1usua1 practice this morning that I feel I must refer to-that is, the practice of reading his speech. I did not know he propo'~d tc continue reading the whole of l1is S)Jeech when he began.

The PREl\IIER: Neither did I.

Mr. SPEAKER: At lca't practicall·: the whole of it. Our Standing Orders are ~ilent on this point. and where thev are silent I must qe guided by the stand~rd authority, "May." Standing Order C\o. 333 insists upon that. " May " states-

" A member is not nermitted to read his speech, but may refresh his memory by reference to notes. The reading of written speeches, which has been allowed in oth0r deliberative assemblib, has nev01· been recognised in either House of Parliament. A membm· may read Pxtructs from documents, but his own language must be delivered bona fide, in the form of an nnwritten co:11posi-

tion. Any other rule would be at once incJnvcnient and repugnant to the true· theory of debate."

The point I wish to make is that if the Premier is permitted to read a speech. then the whole of the rules that apply to debate must be recast, and every other hon. member tnLlSt be given the same permis'··ion. I hav(l no doubt in this case the speech was read by the Premier because he is an exception­ally bus~- man, and there is no doubt it 1\·ould be impracticable for him to spare the time to prep a re a set of notes that \\"ould enable him to deal with such a vast subject almost extemporaneously from those notes, and at the same time attend to the innumerable functions.

The PnE~!IER: That is not the reason.

:\Ir. SPEAKEH.: I do suggest that in future when it is intended to· read a speech almost wholl: the permission of the House be asked.

The PRE:\1IER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith. ?>Iackay): On a point of order, I wish to· say the reason you ascribe to the copious notes is not the mason. The reason whv I spoke from copious notC>s dictated by my­self was that this Bill is subject to negotia­tion between the commission and the corn· pany ; therefore, every word has to be given its due weight. My speech will have a bearing on the ultimate agreement that rnay be m.ade; therefore, it was necessary t ,, '"t out the case for the Bill in a manner that. precluded any ambiguity at all, and did not or might not in any way lead to misunderstanding either by the public or the companies with which we mav later nc.,otiate. That, and that only,' is the rc.a\;on \l"h~'" i«opious notes were used. Obviously, no per2on, kno\ving the itnport­ance of the mattPr, which will run ultimately into millions of pounds, is going to trust to memory for the use of a phrase. I am practically reciting the legal terms on .,, hich I believe the agreement will ultimately be made, and therefore it is necc>sary that that be done in such a vvay that neither the House, the company, nor the public will be misled. I can nuke a speech on this or any othel' Bill ex tC'mpore, but it is due to the legal implicatious of my speech that I spoke from very copious notoc. I interpolated quite a good deal of ne~1 matter, it occurred to me. In any event, there is amph· precedent for the read­ing of spcr"ches in this House, Mr. Speaker. The Attorncv-Gencral in the Moore GO\·ern­ment quite tJroperl:v read his entire speech on the Companies Bill. That Wlls a highly technic.al legal document, and nobody could make a speech explaining such a Bill with· out full note> on the matter. That is one precedent that I c:n1 remember, and there are m a w other,·, if we care !J, look them up. Of Cour"'e, so1ne persons ha ~·e a n1anncr of hiding notes that I do not import. It would be quite easy for me to hide those notes under the Bill, if it was nrcessary, but there was nothing of that kind in my mind. My speech is a clear and ddinite statem€nt of the pcsition that w1li e:.ist if the Bill is pas,ed. Therefore, it must be couched in such terms as will not lead to any discussion or disputation \Yhen the agreement between the company and the Governmmt is finally being made. That is the reason for it. I am not aware that there

Hon. W. Fo1·gan Smith.]

:t222 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

is anv Standing Order in the Standing Ordc'r~ of the Queensland Parliament against that practice.

::\Ir. SPEAKER: Order ! Except that we are bound by the procedure of the House of Commons when our Standing Orders are silent.

The PREMIER: If vou prefer it, Mr. .Speaker. I will be bound by a resolution of thi' House, and I will give notice of that 1llOW.

::\Ir. SPEAKER: Order! I should like to ]Joint out that I made no inference what­eYer rhat the Premier's notes were not his ·own or that he did not dictate that which he ~vao; using. Ever since f have been in thi' How;e the practice has been that an hon. nwmber was not permitted to read his speech. I can recollect many incidents when Speakers have been called on by hon. members to prevent that. In any case, I am drawing attention to a practice that if allowed to continue would be undesirable. It might lead to an hon. member making a speech by proxy.

'I'he PREMIER: Mr. Speaker, in our 'Standing Orders is there anything dealing with the matter?

1\Ir. SPEAKER: No.

The PREMIER : I will give notice to­morrow that I will move for a disagree-1nent with your ruling.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! In the circum­stances I think it would be unwise for me to remain in the chair during the remainder of this debate, and I ask the Chairman of

'Committees to take the chair. Whereupon the Chairman of Committees

'{Mr. Hanson, Buranda) took the chair accordingly.

Mr. ::YIOORE (A ubio''·!l) [11.49 a. m.]: The Premier has occupied a great deal of the time of the House in a gallant attempt to ·convince recalcitrant hon. members of his own party \\ ho are opposed to the pro­posa Is in this Bill that what he is doing is in the public interest and justified by the position as it is to-day. Really, the whole cf his sperch was calculated to show that a privately conducted enterprise under efficient and capable management was i:)etter for the community than one under local authority ·conlrcl or State control or ownership.

He went on to point out that reasons for -that were the loss in taxation that would accrue, the amount of money that would have to be expended in the establishment or purcha, .. e of these enterprises, and the con&e­quent upset of budgetary equilibrium. The whole object of hi.s speech was to show that the method of control of tl10 electricity supply industry which has been in existence for a long time, that is, control through various Orders in Council and by the board under the Electric Light and Power Acts, should be continued. and that no better method has been brought forward to enable 1that control to be exercised and this industry to be carried on.

The Premier said that the first consideration ·of the l\'Ioore Government was not the welfare of the people concerned, but the interests of private enterprise. I want to aay that that statement is entirelv untrue. The sole interest of the Government in power between the years 1929 and 1932 was the

fiion. W. Forgan Smith.

welfare of that section of the community who desired to get electricity at as cheap and economical a rate as the more fortunate ,;ections of the community. There was. no que .. tion of favour or profit ~o the. eloctncal company concerned. People 1n Yanous ar~as had for a long time past been clamounng for the required Orders in Council that "·ould enable them to share in the a.d, ant ages offered by the City Electric Light C'?mpany, Limited. The Government, in the mterests of the people, decided to issue the nece,;sa:'Y Orders in Council. The same thmg will operate under the provisions of this Bill, but only for a limited period.

The Premier held up certain local authori­ties as examples to show the waste in the establishment of small stations in areas that were not large enough to make the prices for power and light reasonable. He quoted Beaudesert. Could any argument be more ridiculous? The Beaudesert Shire Council wanted to come under the jurisdiction of the City Electric Light Company. Limited, and be in the same position a" the Tambourine shire. The Government, however, n;fused to i'•SUe the necessarv Orders in CounciL Yet, the Premier has the impertineiJ.CO to charge the Beaudesert Shire Council with being an uneconomic unit. Moreover, he said they could not be expected to be paid full value for it. He showed so much political sophistrv as to suggest that after the owners had exp-ended a very large amount of capital on the undertaking thev would not be paid full value for it or what' they had put into it. He said further that they would reap the benefit because cheaper electricitv would be supplied to them under the con1prehensive Order in Council. Could you imagine a more stupid suggestion being put forward in this House? The Premier said that instead of paving £6 6s. or £8 6s.-or whatever the amount was-they would now pay only £3 6s., and the advantage they would get from that low rate would compensate them for the loss they would suffer in the amount of capital expended. That shire council was forced by the policy of the G'?vern.ment in the fir~t place to expend capital m an uneconomiC enterprise. The Government absolutely refused to give them the opportunity to get a convenien,ce enjoyed by the people of the citv of Brisbane and other places. The Go\·ernment I repeat compelled these people to em bark 'on an u;,economic station, and now the Premier has the impertinence to say that thev will be compensated for the loss sustained, because they will receive electric current at a rate cheaper than they have been paving in the T)ast. Did you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, ever hear such a ridiculo':s argument? That is actually put up m this House as .a ~Jber argument for the people to consider. The Premier's arguments all went to show that control such as is P;tab­lished under the. Electric Light and Power Act is more economical and more efficient than either State or local authority owner­ship.

The Premier went on to say that the Bill is a recognition of the fact that the provision of electricity should be encouraged. He opened his speech to-day by saying that in most countries it h>Vd become an established fact that the extension of electricity and the use of it were two of the biggest factors in making for progress and success. It seems rather extraordinary that a method of allowing people to get this cheaper elect~icit:v, efficiently managed and capably transmitted,

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.l Commission Bill. 1223

is to be allowed to-day after it has been held up for years, and then the Premier comes into this House and makf,,, a speech of about three yolumes in an endeavour to convince some of the recalcitrant hon. members on his own ,ide that the right thing is being done. The Government have made a virtue of necessity by at last proposing to take advantage of the willingneH of the City Elec­tric Light Company, Limited, to supply and transmit power over a large area of South­Eastern Queensland, under certain specified terms and conditions. The company has been prepared to extend these conveniences under the same terms and conditions as are provided for in th€ schedule of this Bill but not subject to the alterations that ma'v be affected by the commission under this Bill. The company has been prepared to do that for years past. The only reason why the people have been prevented from obtaining the conveniences resulting from th€ use of electricity is that the policy of the Govern­ment prevented them from getting it.

It has been admitted by the Premier that the course insisted upon has been one that has brought into existence several small, inefficient, uneconomic stations. Now when much. of the capital that has been expended IS gmng to be lost. the Premier suggests tha.~ the people should not mind because they are going to bf> recouped in lower pricL" for electricity. It is an extraordinary argu­ment that when people have been compelled to expend large capital sums thcv must not mind losing a certain amount of that capital becanse thev will be r·ecouped in the lower prices for electricity.

I am not averse to the public control of electricity, as by an Electricity Commission. That scheme has worked well in other places. It has worked well in Victoria. I am not quite sure, however, that the Pstablishment of a commission on the lines suggested in this Bill is going- to have the same beneficial effect as the Vict.orian system. vV e all rpcog­mse that co-ordmation and standardication will be of immense adYantage. \Ve recognis0, too, tbat It will be of trcmendou" ach-antage to have a grid system such as that men­tioned by the Premier in the course of his speech, as being in operation in Great Britain and Victoria, whereby stations are able to help one another when nece,,.sarv. 'l'here are certain stations in Victoria th~t work during certain periods of the year onlv. Wh·cn huge bodies of water come down froi:J1 the mountains as a result of the thaw of the snow, stations that can generate energy checcply by water power arc able to help others in the economical distribution of electricity OYer a great part of the State.

When one considers that to-day electricitv has s'!ch a great number of uses, such as fo~ light. pow~r, radio, and refrigeration, one appreciates the need of an efficient and economical service. The City Electric Light Company, Limited, has been providing this serYICe 111 a. great ma.ny places, and ha,~, been prepared to give it also in many more places if the Government would grant it permission: The Bill provides for the extension of an economical and reliable service provided that a satisfactory agreement can be arrived at. between the commission and the company, and between the companY and the various holders of Orders in Council as set out in the schedule to the Bill. '

Th0 Bill is vague on the main features of the agreement. The terma concerning acquisi-

tion, snpply of current, the obligation to construct extensive transmission lines, break­ing-do,,vn stations, and so on, are set out in detail in the Bill. Before the agreement is entered into the company must give up all its present Orders in Council, many of them valuable.

Mr. PowER: For which it paid the State nothing. ·

Mr. MOORE: It has given <1 '~'n-ice to the State. ls that nothing~ It i, not nccesf!ary to pay for ron1ething when you undertake to give a senice to the peopl& of the StatP. The State itself has spent millions of pounds and given the Slat& nothing except a burden of interest and debt. This company has given the people an economical p;ervice which the Pren1ier described throughout his speech as one that could not be better. He is prepared to· allow the company to continue to pro,-ide that eervice ov·er a period.

Mr. POWER: It has .declared hLtge divi­dends.

:\1r. 1100RE: It does not matter. It has g-iven th0 scnicf'. Some of the Orders in Council do not terminate for more than t\ventv vears but in order to get a consoli­dated. Order' ·extending over a minimum period of ten years and a maximum of fifteen vears it has to give up the whole of its present Orders in Council. It is a. pretty big thing to suggeBt that before the com­pany can get a consolidakd Order in Council it must agree to spend. I snppose, £1.000,000 in the extension of its transmis­sion lines to provide a service throughout a large area of the State, and must purchase the Orders in Council held bv local authori­ties and oi·hcr electric undertakings. In othe1- words, it must giv-e up the whole of what it has got and invest £1.000.000 of its reserves or shareholders' funds in order to get a co-ordinated franchise that will opc·rate over a period of from ten to fifteen years.

::VIr. I'oWER: It will get all the money back.

~lr. J'dOORE: The point is that at the present time the State is not prep,.red to· find the £1.000.000 to prov-ide the.e ser­v-ices, and it is not prepared to giYe up the taxation paid by this compa.nv becan,e it 'muld upset budg-etary equilibrium. On .th& other hand. the State ie prepared to \neld the big stick over the company. It ,-ays, " \Ve arc prepared to allow you to do all this." but there was a veiled threat all the wm through the Premier's speech of what wotdcl ha]lllen if thev could not make a reasonable arrangement.

~Ir. POWER: Not at all.

Mr. :VIOORE: Of conrse there was v-eiled threat right through his ~peech. In return for the surrender of all Its prc,ent Orders in Council in exchange for a consolidated franchise the companv n1ay operate OYer .a, maximum period of fifteen ypars. 'I'he share­holders of the company will look pretty carefully at the proposal to see whetlwr the problematical benefit will compenoate them for the cxp~nditure of such a large mm of ni.oncv. Th~ matter should be thorough!:· inn·ti­

gated before a ·definite period is ftxed. The GoYernment !rave not vet appointed the" commission that will go Into the question whether ten to fifteen vears is a reasonable period. The only reason why that period

Mr. Moore.]

1224 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] CommiMion Bill.

hae !wen s<et out in the Bill IS that it is one of the recommendations bv the roval ·commicsion. The commission that is to 'be appointed is to inquire whether the capital involved and the risk conSefluent upon the f'xtension --whether the people to be sened will take enough electric energy to com­pensate the company for its expenditure­will .iustifv the company in accepting a franchise over that period. It is ridiculous to set down in a Bill a hard and fast period fixed b: a. rule-of-thumb method, csnecialh· when no one is vet aware cf what will be 'the finding- of the new commission in this respect. Ko one knows whether it will decide that the proposed period is a reawnable one. I certainly think that the Gm-ernor in Council should be empmverccl to extend the period in accordance with what he believes to be reasonable condi­tions after the commission has made its im·Htigations, a.ftcr the negotiations have taken n lace and after all the cards have been placed on the ta.ble. The Governor in Council should ha.ve the power to fix what­e:er term is thought reasonable. having in new the amount of money to be expended nncl the prospects of an adequate return therefrom.

We should remember that there is a good deal of work to be clone in connection with the proposed scheme. It will probably be two or three vears before the extensions are completed ~ncl there will be an oppor­tunib, for the consumption of electricity. Progre,s in such matters is always com­parativelv slow. The people as a whole do not start- to use it a.t once. A few first become consumers. and its advantages must -become apparent before the bulk of them take advantage of it. That all points to the fact that the full advantages of the supply of electricity will not by any means be taken when it is first introduced. For two or three years the company will have a vcrv heav; capital expenditure. There­fore. both the construction period and the period that must elapse between the time of extension and the period when the people become users must be deducted from the ten or fifteen years set down in the Bill.

It is a ridiculous thing to set clown a ven· definite limitation, either a minimum -or 'maximum, in a Bill like this when the actual basis of it is the appointment of a commiso,ion charged with the duty of investi­gating enry phase of the subject, including the Orders in Council held bv the company and the position of the company, and report­ing to the Governor in Council whether a satisfactory agreement ca.n be made. Surely it is a duty of the commission to go into the que3tion of the length of time that is necessary? If the company and the Govern­ment fail to roach an agreement solely because the term of the franchise is not long enough to enable it to recoup it~elf for the enormous expenditure it must under­take. th0n the whole Bill is usele'R, because the basis of it is practically dependent on an :.cgreement between the company and the ·Government to supply electricitv throughout South-Eastern Queensland. Therefore it seems to be reasonable that the commission should be free to recommend what it thinks necessary, acne! not bound hard and fast by the arbitrary inclusion in this Bill of a fixed franchise term of ten or fifteen years.

A big factor in the undertaking will be the combination of the urban and rura.l supplies. A big base load can be usod to

[Mr. Moore.

help supply in the rural area., for such work as pumping, milking machines, and other machincrv used on farms. That will be a big factoi· in the profits of distribution.

A verv extraorclinarv fact for our con­sideration, a' mcntionec! by the Premier in his spc"ch on the initiation stage of the Bill, is that at present we have two stations in Brisbane quite capable of supplying acll the electricity that is needed. In other words, one station could do the work of the two. Katurally. the Premier suggested at tha.t particular time, and he has also suggested in hi., speech to-day, that the big station with the big base load is the one that can give economic service. The extraordinary thing is that the Brisbane City Council is cxdudecl from the Bill.

Mr. KEOGH: So it should be. You don't expect it to go outside.

Mr. MOORE : I expect the Government to co-ordinate the two svstems. 'I'he urba.n and rural systems should be taken in con­junction. That is a big factor whose import­ance the Premier asserted throughout his speech. When you ha' e a big ba'""' load for the urban area you ca.n make the prices for rural supply more equitable, because the two classes of suppliers arc combined. To talk about co-ordination, combination, and standardisation when the Government are omitting one of the big electrical units in Brisbane from the Bill, except so facr as construction is concerned, outside its own area., is an absurdity, because the big prin­ciple throughout the Bill is that there should be ac policy of co-ordination. That would enable one station to be closed clown, if neces­sary, at periods of low consumption and the whole supply of electricity to be taken from the other, or for one station to suppl.y the other in time of stress.

The Premier talked of the assistance that one station could afford another a.s a dis­tribution of risk like an insurance polio:,, but that insurance policy does not count when it comes to a co-ordination between the proposed area of supply of the City Electric Light Company, Limited, acncl the City Council station and the rest of South­Eastern Queensland. The supply of elec­tricity to a part of the city area is to be a monopoly of the council, and is completely exempt from this BilL

The commission has extraorclinacry powers. It has tho power of investigation and it has the power of the fixation of prices, the power of recommendation, including the power of recommending or declining ac pur­chase to the Governor in Council. The com­mission itself is rather an extraordinary one. When the Victorian Electricity Commission was set up it was acnnouncecl that the chacir­man was to be Sir John l\1onach, an engin_eer of worlcl-wide reputation and great capacity, and the other three members were on full­tirr.e jobs act £500 ac year and presumably w_ere n1en of nnwh experjence in business, w1de vision and strength of mind, and were evi­dently able to foreca·,t future development very well, as they designed a highly suitable network throughout Victoria. 'l'hey must hacve been men of wide vision with an ample knowledge of electricity and business because thev carried out their work-a.ccorcl ing to the Premier's statement this morning-in a very efficient manner.

Let us look at our commission and see what the personnel is going to be. First of all, we are to have four men. Their remuneraction

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.] Comrnis.,ion Bill. 1225

is to be fixed bv the Government. They are to be a sort of "board of directors. The Bill savs in the schedule that thev must meet or{ce in three months. and i1~ other places it say8 that any mcrnber 1vho 1nisscs three meetings in three months v, ill have to vacate office, showing that meetings of the commis­sion are expected to be few. That is similar to the provisicn regarding the local authori­ties. There is nothing to say how often the~­shall meet except that they must meet at least once in three nlonth~. These rnembcrs nn· be either public servants or somebody with­out u, job at aH, because the Governor ir1 Council at any time can call upon a men1her or nH~tnbcrs cf the commission to work full time for tt period that he prescribes and during that period that member or nlcnl.l;t'l'f are not to have anv interest in any other business at all. If you arc going to appoint a conanis~.;ion on that ha::iis the~ eithel· have to be public sen-ants, \Yho hav., to be t-..ken off their jobs for the period the Governor in Council fixes, or nwmbcrs ay1pointcd to full-time jobs. There i~ notl1ing to t:a:.· the chairman is to be the 1nanaging director. There is nothing to :::a~v a manag<>r is to be appoint0d. In Yirtoria the·; sPlrctPd. I mppose, one of the mo>t outetanclin;· personalitic,, in the p·1ginccring v,'orld in the per:-on of Sir John Mona,,h_ Bv the appointment of a gentle­man of that Lalibrc tlY people had a guarantee that the con1rr1i~-ion ·was t1 bo c~tabli.~fted on a vcrv firn1 ha;::,ls, because the chainnan hat! b0en "instrumental in op,•ning up the brown coal cl0posits at Yallourn in Victoria and the generation of electricity thpre. The public would haYe confidence in ::-uch a commission because it v, as evident that it knew ib job and could be expected to act wiseh-. All we ha Ye here is that the chairman. or th0 other members of the commission, n1a,· b( asked at anv time to take a full-tim'e job for the p'eriod the GoYernor in Council prc,cribes and they must not have anything to do with any other business outside. V\'hat sort of a <;ommission is it to be?

Then che commission has exhaordinary powers. It has power to approve or disap­proYe of negotiations after investigation has been carried on between the Citv Electric Light Company, Limited, and the c,;mmission, and it has the right to investigate agree­ments betwP~n local authorities and other electric authorities and between the Citv Electric Light Company, Limited, and those bodies. It has the power to fix prices and from its decisions there can be no appeal, though the schedule fixes prices at 10 per cent. aboYe Brisbane prices.

Clause 17 (3) proYidcs that at any time the co1n1nission so desires it n1av alter the mel he-cl of charges and fix !n·ices not only at inten·als of two years but at "'uch lesser periods as it thinks fit. It has the power to compel undertakings to take coal instead of oil for fuel. In fact, it bas the power to direct the management of a concern in which other peoples' money is inYcste-d. But 1 shall refer to this point later.

N othwithstanding these powers the quali­fications required of members of the commis­sion are not tated. The only gratifying point i;; that the Government haYe, to a certain E'xtent. "'safegua"'rded themocln,, inasmuch as they cJ.nnot appoint to th,~ con1missio11 any· bodv 'vho is insane, an undischarged bank­rupt, or serving a sentence in gaol, and

provision 13 made that if thev acqun·e these disqualifications after arpointment they yacate their office. The Brll actually states that the Goyernment shall not appoint such persons. Evidcnth it is quite an ad,·an­btiTe not to be abh to appomt an msano pe~·son or one ferving a SL'll tencc in gaol . to a cornruission with such vast po"\vers a.s this ! '1 he following dau'e provides that chor~ld thl' chairrnan or auy lllC'lHher of the conlmis­sion die, his scat shall be dcemE'd to be vacated. These are at lea. t tv, o advantages in the Bill.

It is absurd for the Government to put in proYisions mch as these. It sho'"" that they lack confidence in themscl ,-es when by Act of Parliament they protect themselves in the constitution of a cornnu sioH such ,a.,·

this by saying that they shall not appomc anybody "\vho is insane, serv:tng a sentcncp ttJ

lJl'i~on, or who is an undischarged bankrupt. _1_h~~ conuni-_-~1on is the n1ost irnportaat thing vi all in this Bill and sur·h c:aru,es show the length to "\vhich the Govenuncnt have been driven when they guard themselves in such. a """Y by Act of Parliament.

But the Bill does not set down the qualii't­cations necessary for the a1)poinb11ent to thef'e posltions. The personnel of thi;::, coln­mission should consist of men of outstanding abilitv. These men will require .\ breadth oi view 'to Yisualise the extension of clcctricit: over the length and breadth of South-Eastern Queensland or the larger area to "hici1 elcctricitv may be extended in the future. Thev m~st have the necescary attributes for this; in addition to business acumen. They will ha ye to be very sure of themseh·e~ when making recommendations. But there is nothing in 'the Bill as to the qualifications that are to be nece,sarv. Nor is there any jnforn1ation in it as tO the e1nolun1ents to be paid or what kind of a job it is to be. The Bill merely provides for a commission am! ,ays that it has to meet once in three months~ To nw the import,nt factor in the Bill is the commission, and with a commis­sion to be appointed in the manner pro­vided in the Bill it seems we are taking a great risk.

I draw attention particularl:y to the fac; that the commission has the right to compel tho>e who receive Orders in Council to use the natural reoources of Queensland for the generation of their electricity and not Imported fuel. In a question of this sort it is absolutelv necessarv that a safeguard >honld he included to cilable them to get the fuel from the most suitable sourQe. InsteJ.d of being compelled to obtain coal from a rnine situated at some distance, invoh-ing the payment of extra freight, they should be able to obtain their supply from a conYenient n1ine vvhere the quality suits their require· ments. Thev should be able to get coal of the quality 'thev wish from the most suit­able soLnce. The source of supply should bf' optional, and the0 should not be dictated to ln- an outside bodv. If this Bill is to con­tain provisions that hedge people round with conditiOns for the purpose of the stabili­sation of other industries .. then the chances of 6UP'Jh ing electTicit:v throughout the length and b;·e~dth of the south--eastern district of Queerbland at an economical rate \1ill be remotP. rrhat is going to place <;;:_OlnpanleS or per::::ons carrying on thi~ enterprise in a. vcr:· di ffirult position.

The rorrtrnission has also the right to con­trol the c:xpcnditnrc, charges, maintenance.

Mr. Moorc.)

1226 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Comm1·$sion Bill.

efficien c, and economics of an undertaking. Fancy a rmnrnission appointed in the \vay this one is proposed to be appointed having ,,u~h power. After the Order in Council is issued, it will have the right to control the maintcn><ncc, efficiency, and economic> of the undert .king! After alL that is not the job of the commi ··.ion. Its real job is to control th< various unitB to see that there is co-ordination.

l\lr. PowER: There is a rea·.on for that. The Govcrnme11t do not want undertakings handed onT in the same way as the tram­ways ''"ere handed over-worn out.

l\lr. :\I(!t)RE: The hon. member is living a long \ray back in the past. The Electric Light and Power Act supplic.,; all the power eequirecl to cope with that matter. The Govcrumcnt have nothing to be proud of oYer the tran1ways, because after refusing the corupany pern1ission to raise fares, anrl. deprc.;iating the value of its assets, they stepped in and bought them, and after that allowed the increases. I am afraid the Government might do the same thin,: here. They might deprE:ciate the assets oi the City Electric Light Company, Limited, and by th·• fixation of prices by the commia­sion acquire an undertaking at less than they cmg11t to pay. The Bill. in several clauses spea.b about justice to the company. JUsbce to the shareholders, and the con­sumers. but the commission has vast power,; in the fixation of prices.

The po;cition would have been entirely different to what it is had the GoYernment enforced the provisions of the Bill that went through this House in 1934. That Bill wa'· used as a stick just the same as the thrcac made by the Premier this morning as to what •xiil happen if a satisfactory agreemen1 is not corne to.

JUr. :VlcLEAX: The Premier made no threat at all.

Mr. MOORE : The hon. member might not undentand such a. thing. We do, because we seP so many of them.

Clause 25 of the Bill refers to the powers a.nd duties of the commission. It mys that the commission has power to prevent the extension of .an undertaking to any area where it is satisfied that such extension will oot be profit-producing within two yean It is quite possible that there might be a. profitable undertaking to be· worked up, but not in t.he space of two years. The Victoria" Electricih· Commission \vas allowed to make exts:-nslon~ into area..s vvhere the extension might not be profitable for ten years. A maximum loss of £30,000 was specified, and that Ios.' wa.s to be borne equally by the co!nini';~IOll, tl1e Government, a.nd the autho­rity concPrned.

If the City Electric Light Company. Limited, is able to obtain the ccnsolidated Order in Council the commission can specify the time within which it will be obligatorv on the (·on1pany to supply electricity to any area. The company might be ordered to make an extension irrespective of whether it would be 1wofit-earning or not.

.Mr. GLEDSO:.r: 'The City Electric Light Company, Limited, wanted to do the'e things.

:Wr. :V100RE: Yes, in places where it had made proper investigation, and where it could see there might be possibilities of a profit in the future.

Mr. GLEDSO:.r : It had two sets of prices.

[Mr. Moore.

Mr. MOORE: It would show bY the exten· sion of transmission lines into ai·eas that it recognised tha.t there would be possibilities of profit-earning from the venture.

It is verv diff.erent when it comes to a question of the purchase by the Govern­ment within a maximum period of fifteen years. The commission. which is virtually an Pmployee of the Government, because it does not <wen appoint it·'· own employees -the Governor in Council fixcc their remuneration and appoiuts them, so the.t it is more or less a GoYcrnment department­the commission has powJr to compel the company, if an agrcen1ent is come t::- to go into any area within a specified time.

Mr. TAYLOR: Is there anv difference in the powers giv-en to this c'ommis~ion and the powers given to the Queensland Meat Industry Board that you sot up?

Mr. MOORE: The powers giv-en to the Queensland Meat Industry Board tpat was c,;tablished by my Government an\ ootally different. Its employees are not appointed by the Governor in Council. It is in com­plete control of its own activities. The responsibility for the succc,s or failure of its operations is on the board, not on the GoYernmBnt. If we get a commission that will be as efficient in carrying out the \'rorl\: of electricity suppl:v as that bo3rd is in carrying out- its work. I shall have nothing to say against it. The Meat Industry Board is not required to meet more than once in three months. Its members have not to g-ive the whole of their time to its affairs. They are not compelled to refrain from engaging in any other business.

Mr. TAYLOR interjected. Mr. MOORE : I am not viewing this matter

from any point of view other than that set out in the Bill. and if the hon. member had read the Bill hB would havD noticed that the members of the commi"ion must be engaged in no other business whatever. and may be compelled at any time to devotB the whole of their time to the affairs of lhe commission at the remuneration fixed by the Governor in Conneil. What will be the position if that happens? I want to seB a commission appointed comprising men of outstanding ability, men in whom the people will have confidBnco. For the Meat Industry Board we got the most outstanding men we could get in Australia.

Mr. TAYLOR: How do you know the Government arc not going to do that with this commission, too?

Mr. MOORE: I can see quite well that the Government are not going to do that. 'l'he Bill tells us what they are going to do. Apparently the Government will be guided by motives of economy and not by a desire to got brains. In appointing com­missions of this kind the rule to be f Jllowed should be to get the most efficient men that it is possible to obtain. I am afraid that the commission, as provided for in this Bill, with the Goym·nor in Council in con­trol of it, will be entirely different from the Meat Industry Board, which has com­plete control o.f its own affairs. The Governor in Council has nothing to do with that qoard.

Mr. TAYLOR: Would you like us to give complete control to the commission?

Mr. KEOGH: You should be ashamed of your actions in establishing the abattoirs.

State Electricity [9 NovEmBER.] Commission Bill. 1227"

:\Ir. ::YIOORE : That was one of the most glorious exploits of any Government. If l had to sink or swim on the purchase of the abattoirs and the conduct of them since their establishment thcr<:> \Yould not be one Labour member ir; the House to-dav. The abattoirs are one of the greatest bar()'ains this country ever had.

The commission under this Bill is also given another very great power. I think Lhat the power is one that ought to be given. but it is a very wide one to vest in a commission of the type to be appointed. This con1n11ssion n1ay grant pern1is3ion to erect any transmission lines through any area and across any property. and the Bill provides that its decision shall be final and without any appeal. Gcncrallv when• such decisions as these are provici~d fer in a Bill provision is made for an appeal to some competent tribunal. Even under this Bill provision is made for appeal to the Indus­trial Court or to the Land Court on matters app0rtaining to the fixation of prices or disagreements onw values of land respec­tiwly. and it seems to me that there might be cases in which an appeal would be very nece"sary for the persons concerned. . After all, a company that has been estab­

hshed over a long period of years in areas outside Brisbane, and C\'en in Bri~bs,nc, ha~ a right to justice and fair dealing. and if the cnmmi8-::.ion deemed jv ccor;o1nical er handy to permit the construction of tran'­mission lines across private property, the owner shouLd at least have the rio-ht of an appeal against its decision. I sho;ld not be so much afraid if the company was allowed a free hand to carry out the negotiations but all the time there is the shadow of th~ commission behind it. That ie one of the diffi'CUlti~s.. The' City Electric Light Com­pany. Limited. has been able to offer equit­able terms and conditions to a laro-e section of the community who are to-day~ f'njoying the advantages ot its Orders in Council and I should not mind i£ it ,,,as prO\·ided' that it alone should have the opportunit7 to carry out these negotiations because I recog­nise that i:he company has bePn succ0ssful on account of its br0adth of vision and it can be relied upon to do the rio-ht thino· in the future. If the> commi"ion i~ allowed to have the deciding voice in this matt0r it may not act quite so fairlv. \Vhat is to be the constitution of this commission? The only r<,strictions are that its members shall not be ~nsane or in gaol. In allowing it to ha.-e this power we are takmg a pretty big risk.

The Bill provides that the Citv Electric Light Company, Limited. shall agree that the maximum pric0 to be charged in am: a rea, other than Brisbane, shall not be mm:e than 10 per cent. over Brisbane prices. but the commission has power to vary the price or the method of charging. The Bill stipu­lates that it may not be vari~ed within two years, or such less time as . the commiS'ion thinks fit. That is a pretty wide power to give to a commission.

Mr. PowER: Is there not the right of an appeal against its decision in that respect?

Mr. MOORE : There is the right of an appeal to the Industrial Court but that is virtually an. appeal from one Government department to another. It is meticulouslv set out in the Bill in detail that the charge 'hal1 not be more than 10 per cent. over

Brisban2 prices but it may be )c,s. That being so why place in the hands of the commission the right to alter the method of charge and the prices at any time that it thinks fit? That means that there is no security.

Mr. Dc:~sT.\~: You would object if that power >vas not there.

Mr. YIOORE : I should not. \Yhat has been done in connection with other leo·isla­tion? What happened in the ease of the coal boards? There is the right of an appeal from the decision of a coal boar-d to the Commissioner of Prices. but the C'ommis­f:ioner of Prices fixes only the Ininin1un1 price, and tho coal board ca~1 charge a:-; rnuch more as it likes. The Brisbane Cit ,. Council found that out when it appealed ·from the decision of a board to the Commissioner of Prices and got a reduction in price. but thG board continued to charge it 4d. a ton more for the coal than the price fixed bv the Commissioner of Prices. It again appealed to the Commi··sioner of Prices, but he replied, "I cannot hcelp that; I fix onlv the 1ninirnuu1 price, and the board can char~ge as much more as it likes." 1Jnder this Bill the commission will have power to fix the maximum price, and in that respect it has the whip hand all the time.

::\Ir. PoWER: The companv has the ri,-ht to appeal to the lndustrial Court against ·-its decision.

:\fr. l'IOORF:: Yes. but I do not think that it is right in principle to set out in the Bill the terms and conditions that should be adhered to until the expiration of a certain period.

1Ir. PowER: You do not want to give protection to the consumer.

Mr. :\IOORE: If the hen. member had read the Eiectric Light and Power Act he would have seen that it gives ample pro­tection. to the consumer. Why, the protec­t,wn given to the consumer under that Act would be enough to depreciate the assets of the company to about two-thirds of their­value if the provisions were enforced.

:Mr. PowER: \Vhom are you representing,. the City Electric Light Company or--

Mr. MOORE: I am representing ju.stice and fair play in the interest, of the cmn­munity. I am ,ent here to do that. I am not sent here to exploit one section becau,e it has invested its money in an ente_rnrise that has given great value to QucenSand. I am here to see that all sections of the· community get fair play. The shareholders o£ the company and the consumers should get an opportunity of receiving a fair deal.

The biggest factor. of course. in the suce'~ of this Bill is the personnel of the commis­sion-whether its members have the capacity, the vioion. the breadth of view and the ability to discharge all the power; delegated to them under it. This Bill gives the public all the advantag<',, while the company takes all the risk. It is expected of the company that it shall come to an amicable and satis­factory agreement. notwithstanding the very clefinit~ limitation of the franchise period, and in that limited period recoup itself for its expenditure. 'The company can only t·ccoup itself to a very limited degree because it cannot get any greater profit than i,_ set out in the Elec-tric Light and Power Act.

Mr. Moore.]

1228 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

In these respects the whole Bill should be altered to Eet out the personnel of the com­mission definitely-who they are to be-so that we may have the opportunity of judging their capacity to handle a big enterprise such as this will be. Later on, the commis­sion \vill, presumably, be in a similar posi­tion to the Victorian Electricity Commission. I suppose the members will be appointed for seven years, and provision will be made for their reappointment for a further term. The Government should amend the clause that prescribes ·a maximum period of the fran­chise of fifteen yea,rs and provide that the Govemor in Council should be able to authorise such extcndbl period as the com­mi..,~ion~ after investigation, may recom­mend. It would be disastrous if the nego­tiations between the company and the Govemment wDre to break down bv reason of the fact that the expenditure. of the company 1s to be too great as compared with the return to be rccci,ed from the franchise under the Order in r'ouncil.

The Premier devoted a great part of his speech to pointing out the advantages that would ensue from the granting of a fran­chise to the company to distribute electricity in certain divisions of the State how that would preserve the equilibriu{n of the budget. and how the Government would be saved from raising and expcndino- a large amount of capital, which could, therefore, be spent in other avenues. The company has to make thP'e extensions, find the interest on the amount involved, supply the elect1·icitv under terms and conditions as set out in the Electric Light and Power Acts, and get a return for its shareholders. Surely then, in the conditions pointed out by the Premier, it is ridiculous to sa v that the maximum period of franchise the com­pany may have, including the time it takes to make the extensions in the various are::ts into which olectrieity will be ext<mded, shall be only fifteen years ! The commis­sion should have the right, after a full inve;tigation, to recommend the period. It might be fifteen years, seventeen years. eighte0n years, or twenty years. \Yhy, the length of time granted in Victoria was infin­itely greater. In London it went far beyond fifteen ~-ears, and I was reading the other day that a franchise < f forty-two years was granted to one authorit:y, whosD directors showed that they would require that period to allow the company to recoup itself.

It would be a disaster if an agreement could not bo arrived at with the compan;; because its term' and conditions are set down so arbitrarily in this Bill, and because the company thoug-ht they were un,atisfac­tory. After all, the company is recognised by the Government as a suitable instru­ment for the extension of dectricity on the most economical basis, and one that will give the best service. Surely, then it is reasonable to provide a proper ~venue through which to enable a definite and suit­aqle agreement to be arrived at rather than run the risk that the negotiations will br·eak down in their final stages, because the time set up in the . Bill is insn_fficient to justify the company m undertakmg the re,ponsi­bility.

It is stupid to bring in a Bill of this sort without making these two big factors -and after all they are big factors-clear to the public. The public want to know the

[Mr. Moore.

personnel of the commission and whet her the chairman will be a man of such out­standing ability that they can repose con­fidence in him.

A GovERX~IENT ME~BER: You are not ~ug­gesting they will not?

Mr. MOORE: Yes, from previous experi­ence I am. I am suggesting that it will be like the Brisbane Citv Council has done. It has put on men, apparently on the principle that the only thing that mattered waa how much salary they were to get. If they w<'re cheap enough nothing else counted, no matter how big the enterprise was. Look at the experience we have had in thi,, city in the· scwcra<sc system. It did not matter what sort of appointmC'nts were made. it did not matter whether hands were trebled or quad­rupled, the public had to pay after all! \Ye want to see the public get a proper deal in a commission of this sort. I want to see that we get the best a.ncl most efficient com­miasion, considering the powers it has and remembering that the whole basis of the Bill will be their investigations and the powers they will administer.

Mr. GLEDSON (Ipswich) [12.40 p.m.]: The Bill before the House is certainlv a very important one, and the Premier i~ to be congratulated on giving the House a wealth of information regarding it.

The two main principles of the Bill are definitely set out. Repeatedly in his speech the hon. member for Aubigny said that the Bill should contain the names of the per­sona who were to be appointed as members cf the commission. I point out that the commission cannot be established until the Bill has been pas:-ed by this House and l ecomes law, for only under that law will the Governor in Council be authorised to appoint them. I do not know that anv other method could be adopted. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition endeavoured to make out that the Government would appoint persons who were not competent to carrv out the work. No member of the Opposition c:tn quote a c,ase where the Government have appointed anyone who has not been capable of carrying out his work, but I could emote imtances in which per­sons appointed by the Moore Government did not carrv out their work. V\"hen the Bill become~· law and the Governor in Council has power to appoint the commis­sion. hon. members can rest assured that the Government will select the most efficient men offering. Thev will not confine them­selves to residents of .Queensland.

The work of the commission will not be to generate electricity. It will simply exer­cise a measure of control of electricity supply throughout the State. The Bill provides that the supply for the whole of the south­e.a,tern district shall be centralised in one co-ordinating point, and that the commission ehall enter into negotiations with the City Electric Supply Company, Limited, for that purpose. This means that there will be a co-ordinated service for an area extending from Gympie, on the north coast. to Coolan­gatta, on the south coast, and including the whole o£ the \V est Moreton and Lockver districts, and almost the whole of the Fassi­fern Valley. That is a huge area.

The Bill provides that the commission shall have power to negotiate with the City Electric Light Company Limited for the co-ordination of the services, and I take it that that company, as the co-ordinating

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.] Commission Bill. 1229

point, will work the whole area as one. There IS already a supply of electricity in the \Vest Moreton area. I think current is supplied even as far as Withcott, at the bottom of the Toowoomba Range. In the Fas,.ifcrn Vallev I think there is onh one small source of· supply, in the Boonah' area, the power being generated by a butter factory and supplied to a private company for distribution.

This Bill propoc.es that an Order in Coun­cil shall be granted that will cover the whole of that area. and the commission shall 1wgotiate with· the company to take ov·er all the supplies therein. That is a ven valuable franchise. I do not think we ~ould cliscoYer in any other part of the world an Order in Council that gave to a company the right of supply to the extent proposed in this measure. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition object0d to some of the clauses of thr Bill and argued that as "ome of the franchises h0ld bv thf' com­pany had still a. number of years to run. it would be giYing up verv valuable rights but I would point out that the company will be granted new franchises covering a largo area over which it has no rights at the present time. This also must be taken into consideration. Some of the present franchises will expire next year, and others tn three or four years.

Included in the latter is the verv Yaluable right for the Ipawich district, for· which the extended period of thP already .expired fran­<Ohise runs out at the end of three or four year:;:.,

That will be extended. so that instead of giving the people control of them, the com­pany will haYe an extended perwd running from three or four years up to a maximum of fifteen years. :'\or does the matter end there, as was suggested by the Deputy Leade-r of the Opposition. The Bill makes prOI'ision for further periods of extension.

Mr. RussELL: If you cannot raise the wind.

Mr. GLEDSO?\: I do not know what the hon. member is speaking about. The position is that certain steps could be taken if the Government thought them wise. However, I am not going into that phase of the matter. I do not know whether the hon. member for Hamilton has something in his mind or not. I am speaking of the Bill before the House. This valuable franchise is given, and, in addition, the Bill does not lay down definitely that an undertaking shall be taken over at the termination of ten or fifteen ;years. Power is given to extend the franchiile from vear to vear until the commission thinks it advisable for the whole supply of electricity to be under public ownership. The Governor in Council has the power, on the recommen­dation of the commission, to take over elec­tricity supply to South-Eastern Queensland at the end of certain periods or at the end of each period of twelYe months. The Bill provide, for an extension of time until the commission is able to recommend that it would be better for the people to have their electricity supply under public ownership. There is no question but that the control of electricity will be Yested in the commission.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition objected to certain powers now being given to the commission, particularly in regard to transmission lines. What is the present position? The company has the right-and it does not pay fo-r it-to go upon any land

and along any road in the erection of trans­mission lines. It has had the free use of mile, of roads in the past, and yet the hon. gentleman object:, to certain powers now being given to the commisBion.

I am glad that the Bill provides for some svstem of control bv the commi"ion. Local authorities have the rjght of appeal to the commission on various matters. I do not propose to take up much time in discussing these matters becau'e there are virtually only two major points to be considered-the appointment of the commission to control, and the ultimate negotiation with the City Electric Lig·ht Company, Limited, for the public ownership of electricity supply in South-Eastern Queensland. 'The commission will comprise men who are capable of carrying out that control in a proper way.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said also that this commission would be given control over prices. The Electricity Board that was established under the Electric Light and PowL'r Actc. 1896 to 1934, was given that control. As that board will be abolished when this Bill beer mes law, it is essential that the control of pr1ces shall be vested in the new commission. vV e know from experience that no attempt was made by the City Electric Light Company to popularise the use of ·electricity by reduc­ing prices, until the company was virtually compelled to do so. W c all know that it was not until the Brisbane Citv Council erected its own power house and. competed against the company by selling energy at a reduced price that the company made any attempt to reduce its prices.

The same mav bo b.tid with reo-ard to Ipswich. 'I'he- Ipswich Electric Su~Jply Company. Limited, had a mo-nopoly for the supply of energy to Ipswich. \Yith what result? It charged Sd. a unit until the Government appointed a board to inY<'stigate prices" of_ electricity. Then the company sa1d, V\' e now agree to reduce our pricf~s. and the effect of that reduction will be a saving cf £5.000 a year to the people of Ips-.vich." The comp'Lnv was able to make that r·eduction. yet, for- fifteen years it had made no attempt to effect any saving to tho rc,;iclents of Ipswich. I say to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, therefore, that it is essential that thi~ commission should be given control over prices. On its own statement the City Electric Light: Company, Limited. for the two companies are almost identical, has deprived the people of Ipswich of £5,000 a year for fifteen years, and it was only the action of the Government in appointing the board to investigate the matter that moved the company to give this benefit.

Later, the company stated that it was prepared to rednce the prices still further if the GoYernment would gi,-e it an Order in Council for an extended period in order that they might supply the whole of West Moreton. The reduction that the company offered was to Brisbane prices, plus 10 per cent. That reduction has not yet been made. \V e find, too, that under the Order in Council that was granted the company was to erect a plant in Ipswich for the purpose of generating an electrical supply for the whole of the \Vest Moreton area. Instead of doing that, the company ran a trans­mission line from its station in William street, Brisbane, to Ipswich. No generating

Mr. Gledson.]

1:230 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

plant was installocl at Ip"yich. and the company does not intend to er .et one there. Of course. under this Bill, it loses all right to erect that plant.

I support the Bill. bccau·-e by its opera· tion the residents of \Y est Moreton will be able to enjoy the IJcneHs of electrical energy, 'Yherea~ preYiou~l~, that po~sibilit.y "as extremd:; remote. By the operations of this Bill WC shall be aulc to vet an Order in Council fer· those areas that haYe not been able as yet to obtain a supply.

:Mr. RCSSELL (Hamilton) [2 p.m.l: The Bill reminds me YCn mucl, of the curate's t·'Gg-it i~ good in~ parts.

·while I agree with the Premier that we must deal with the matter on what he terms a broad. national basis, we must also see that the intf•rcsts of the indiYidnal are not altogether \,acrificd to his desire that they shall gin' 1·. "Y to the interests of the State. I admit that, generally speaking, that is a yerv fine sentiment. Still. at the prC'iCnt junct~ne. there is just the· danger. unle,s we arc fair-minded, that the righh of the indiYiclual may be undnly projuclicecl b,, the pa"ag·c of the Bill in its entirety.

I aclmit that the trend of public opinion is towards State control of seyoral public utilities. There I thiuk we can meet ou common grouncl. \V c should. as far as possible. conceiYe sorne s~~ste1n for the nationalisation of these utilities that can be classed as natural monopolies or essential public utilities. But I am not prepal'ecl to go further than that. because I know that the part,· opposite is inclin0d to the idea. of the .-ocialisation of the means of production and distributior>. \Vhile we may agre0 that as a matter of common sense and policy it is wise that these natural monopolies. which belong to the community. should be con· trolled by the community and not by individuals, or by companies, I think that there we must part compan<'. \Yhile \YO

are prepared to deal with the matter on a broad basis. we must see to it th.1t the interests of 'the indiYiduals who are alreadv interested in these busineoses are not in any way jeopardised. It may be that the future of democracy means State-control of public utilities, but we must take care that in tho process of acquiring these public utilities the rights of the individuals are presened, except where their interests are diametri· rally opposed to those of the State.

Private enterprise has been allowed to control electricity in the past and priyate companies haYe been formed con,isting of shareholders who haYe invested their sayings in these undertakings. They haYe been allowed to do so under statute; under statute thev have been allowed to extend their busi· nes~es, and I do not think that the State has any right to jeopardise their interests. I w..tnt to be quite fair in the matter. While I support the ultimate ideal of public owner· ship, I want to sec that indiYidual rights are protected in tho process of bringing that about. Consequently, we must see that in whateyer action we take there is ample oecurity for the inYestments of the public. These interests should not be jeopardi:;ecl by the incursion of the GoYernment or muni· cipalities into those realms where private enterprise has been allowed to enter.

If it· is the desire of the people that certain actiYities must be controlled by the

[Mr. Gledson.

State, or by a rnuniripality, we rr1ust sec to it that the persons \Yho are dispossessed get a fair deal. That is to say, thev should n::cciye a1nple eorr1pensation for their invest­rncnts. I am afraid tl1at while we 1-nay applaud the ultimate end of this Bill it does not safeguard the rights of private citizens as it should. I want to see to it, therefore, that the'<' rights are recognised by peaceful con1promise or, in f'ertain cases, by paynu:'nt of compensation if the rights of :rriYate indiYicluals are expropriated by the Stale or municipality. The aim of the Bi!l-pubhc' c:mtrol of this utility-can be mpportcd.

It seen1s to n1e the State mis')cd a great opportunit,, in 1923. The present Pnemicr was the then Secret an· for Pub he \v arks. There was a very strong. agitation in Brisba~c for the control of this Yen· Yaluable pubhc utilitv. In fact. the whole. of the municipa· lities ~of Brisbane were unanimous in tl1eir desire to control the electric light Ull(lcr­taking bv a commission or trust. I haYe· alrcad\ referred to this matter at a preYiouS stage, ·but I should like to refer to it again. At a conference conYened in 1923 i:J.v the local authorities of Brisbane a ruol\Jtion \Yas

carried unanirnouslv that the timP \Yas oppor­tune for the constitution of a trust to control the electric light suppl"' of th'' city. I unclNstand that the GoYermncnt of the day vYerc rather apprehcnsiYC' as to the co~t to them if they put thc'e desires into effect. At that conference I had the honour of moYing the resolution. It was H'COJ!dcd by Alderman Charlton. of the Hamilton Town Council, and carried unani1nously.

The opportunity was lost. As the P1~emier has already said: It was difficult for hnn at that time to arrive at the Yalue of the ph \'Si( a! assets of the company. Since that date their capital has increased considerably, and the undertaking has been enlarged to such an extent that if it was bought out to-dav. the cost would be considerabl,, in Pxce,,; of the Yaluc as it stood in 1923. \Yhile that was an opportune time, to-day we find that the position has been much agg.ravated bv the Brisbane City Council's declsron to build a super power house in Brisbane a.nd thus enter into competition with the Crty Electric Light Company, Limited, for the supply of energy to the yarious local autho­rities and the public.

Mr. KEOGH: The company forced it to.

Mr. RUSSELL: That rs only a bald statement.

Mr. KEOGH: You know it, too.

Mr. DEP'CTY SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. RCSSELL: That is onlv a bald state .. ment. As a matter of fact., the company has, owing to the extension of its ramifica­tions, been able to reduce the price of its current. \Ve must bear in mind that the company is called upon to bear heavy income tax as well as manv other liabilities that the Brisbane Citv Council has not to meet. There is no eoinparison between the operations of the council and the corr:pany. The company has rendered good servrce to the public. It is admitted to-day that tl_le price it charges for current is reasonable 111

the extreme. The position will be further aggra Yated

bY the tremendous exten,ion of the com­pany's serYicos thrJughout South-Eastern Queensland.

State Electrtcity [9 NovEMBER.] Oommis.;ion Bill. 1231

With the competition between the two authorities and the gradual branching out of them both the pooition is more difficult to-day than in 1923, and. as the Premier <'!~.id, it mmt be clarified. I am glad to have hi.< statement that in that clarifica­tion the Government will be fair to all interests.

v.-hat are the main objectives of the Bill that may be classed as objectives we can support? Firstly, the Bill proposes to bring all private interests under one control. That is say, it is expected that the City Electric Light Compall)', Limited, will not only absorb the Ipswich EleCtric Supply Com­pany Limited, but all other private interests, so that the next object of the Bill may be realised, that the <'Ommission shall brmg­about a close co-ordination between pri ·1 ate interests 1and the Brisbane Citv Council. There will thus be only two clectt:ic authori­ties for the cJmmission to deal with. that is. assuming the City Electric Light Company, Limited, takes over all other intensts out­side the Brisbane City Council. There is just this difficulty th0re, that the company may object to payine; the price demanded by the outside anthoritiee. Provi,ion is made in the Bill for the Government to take them over, and we may yet have the spectacle of the Government, the Brisbane City Council, and the company being brought together under the Bill and their services co-ordinated.

The PREof!ER: "'What would be wrong with that?

Mr. RUSSELL: There is nothing wrong in that. I was going to say that must bring about a greater efficiency in produc­tion, and it must ,also bring al;lout the com­plete standardisation of equipment. The most important provision will be that which will pave the way for ultimate acquisition by the State of the whole of those under­takings, and by that moans bring about what we de,,irP, the complete control of this public utility by the State.

Those are feature., of the Bill that can be supported; but there are some provisions in the Bill that I think are very objection­able. Far too much authoritv is vested in the commission, considering what happens to the objections that may be lodged against their decisions. The commissioners have the full control as to the equipment to be used at these generating stations, and full power to declare the price to be charged for <mrrent. Generally speaking, they have very autocratic powers. If an appeal is lodged against their decision, the appellants arc to be compelled to go to the Industrial Court. To my mind, that is a very radical depa.rture from the ordinary procedure in appeals. The Industrial Court was con­stituted to deal with matters of wages and hours in industry, and intricate qu<?,tions of law that may arise under this Bill should go on appeal to the Supreme Court of Queensland, and there certainly should be a further ar1pcal to the High Court if necessary. These appeals are to be limited to appeals to the Industrial Court, whose decision is final. If it is decided to acquire the City Electric Light undertaking when the time arrives there is qound to be a good deal of controversy as to the value of the physical assets that are to be taken over.

Matters of law of very great importance may have to be deride,{. The provisions rela­ting to appeals are grossly unfair. That is one of the greate't blots on the Bill.

Very extreme powers are vested in the Governor in Council in rpgard to the agree­ment that mav be entor0d into between the commission and the City Electric Light Com­pany, Limited. as to thP value of the physical assets at tlw determination of the franchise. All that is necessary for the agreement to be validated is that it be agreed to by the Governor in Council and tiH'n proclaimed in the" Govennncnt Gazt:tte," 1vhen it irnn1edi­ately cornc,; into force. In an in1portant matter in which the value of thP undertaking may be round about £2,000,000 the agreement entered into should be ratified bv Parliament. Of course, the Bill makes pro,:ision for the proclamation and that it shall lie on the table of the House. It. thPrcfore, could be discussed if Parlian1ent vyas in session, but in an important matter such as this the agreement d10uld be ratified by Parliament.

An equally important point is that the a~roement '·hould be induded in the Bill. I cannot understand whv the Government adopt ~uch a roundabout ~vay at arriving at an agreement with the City Electric Light Com­pany, Limited. The provisions are based on supposition and a great number of para­~ra.phs in the Bill commence with the word " if." If the City Electric Light Company, Limited. agrees to the value set on its under­taking by the commission, everything is all right-the price will be paid-but that agree­ment mav not be ratified bv Parliament until a considerable time later. · If it is in recess Parliament should be called together to ratify an agreement in a matter of such great public interest. Moreover. the agree­ment itself should be incorporated in the Bill. It should not be the subject of an Order in Council. This is vesting in the Cabinet too much power altogether. Cabinet is gradually usurping ,the functions of Parlia­ment, which is the bod v that should ratify an important agreement such as this. I make a pl<':t for an alteration in the Bill to provide that no agreement shall be valid until it is ratified bv Parliament. Parliament must aesert its rig:hts and insist on having the agreement ratified by it and not by the Governor in Council. The details of the agreement arrived at between the commis­sioners and the company should be part and parcel of the Bill. It should be there for all timf' and so that everyone may see the term's and conditions to which the State is committed. That is a very grave blot on the Bill.

The success or otherwise of the commi"ion depends entirely on the acceptance by the company of the proposed c.chedule. The con­solidated franchise that is to be given in lieu of the franchises surrendered must not have a longer tenure ihan fifteen years. The period may be for ten years, but it must not be great0r than fifteen years.

May I point out to the hon. member for Ipswich that although there is a provision in the Bill that the company may continue for more than fifteen years, that is an option that can only be given by the com­mi~sion. The con1pany '''ould have no say in the matter at all. The agreement would be for fifteen years, and the extension of it beyond that period wou],d be one for the commission and not the company. The tenure of the franchise, therefore, is not to

Mr. Russell.]

1232 State Electricity [ASSEl\fBLY.] Commission Bill.

be more than fifteen years. Furthermore, the agreement is bas0d on the i<uppositicn that the company will accept the consoli­dated franchise in lieu of the present fran­chises, some of which do not expire until 1972. If the compan:. accepts that franchise the main object of the Bill Yvill be accom­plished.

Supposing th · City Electric Lig·ht Com· pany, Limitc<l, does not agree to the franchise of fifteen vears, what is the procedure 1 o bt• followe~l'' I·· the Dill to go bv che board'? \Yhat procedure will the Govc<:tt­mcnt adopt to put its objects into effect'! Tbe Preu1ier said that in such a contingency the Govcrnnwnt had other resources >it

hand. \'i'e on this side of the House pressed him for a more definite statement, and we toolt his statements to convev a threat that force would lw used to comp01 the compan,­to fall into line y·:ith the Government's pro­posal,>;. If the con1pany does not acrrnt the proposal will the Hill go by the board' I cannot sec that the Go .-ernment ha Ye any right to force the company to cccept this agreement for a fiftAen :-·ears' franchi•e, con­sidering the Ycry Yaluable franchises it has to-day.

:\Ir. J\1AHER: The Bill does not ncce"arily giYe the company fifteen years.

l\Ir. RCSSELL' No, that is the maxi­murn. The hon. n1cn1bcr for IpS"\Yich seen10d h think that the franchicc' could go on ad infinitum-year by year. )Jo emnpany would be prepared to carry on bu,inc' ·, at the pleasure of the Gm-ermnent. If the Gm·ern­mcnt cannot earn out their de ires in fifteen years, they must· give an exten:;;ion of tirne. ::\'o company would be agreeable to carrying on its oper:ttions fron1 ~vea r to year. knowing that it could be wiped out of exi'tence at any moment the GoYernment desired to step in. I do not think the period of fifteen years is long enough, considering that the original franchises were for forb -two years. It has been the accepted practice in the past to give long franchises to electric authori­ties, and the period has been usually fo,·ty­two years. Some are shorter no doubt. but iu no instance can we find a. franchise for such a. short period as ten or fifteen years.

\Vhen one considers that the dedrifieation of South-Eastern Quecne.land would entail the expenditure of an rnormouf' an1onnt of capi­tal, one realises the difficultie•· of the situa­tion. It has been said that the whole of the company's liquid capital, together with a great deal more money, would be utilised. It would be impossible to complete the elec­trification of such a vast area under two years. Is it a. fair thing to sa:. to the company, "You can expend £1.000,000 or £2,000,000 on this scheme and we will give vou a franchise for thirteen vears after the completion of the project.", I think the whole propoml is unfair. \Vhv should the company invest its re··erve funds and call for fresh capital under such a meagre fran­chise as that offered under the Bill' \Ve should have receiYed from the Premier a more candid statement m regard to the length of the franchise.

What are the resources the GoYPrnment can utilise in forcing the company to agree to the terms laid down. Should the Citv Elec­tric Light Company, Limited, not accept the Government's terms, what is the alternative? Before any term was mentioned in the Bill there should have be·en a conference between the Government and the company to sec if

[2J.1 r. R11ssell.

terms could be arranged amicably. Those terms should then haYe been included in the Bill, whether the period was to bo fifteen year::, or twenty-one years.

The PRE'\l!ER: You do not grasp the point. That ten to fifteen years covers many more agre.en1onts.

Mr. RCSSELL : I know it coycrs many n1oro agrcerncnt:--. I know also that it cm·ers a Yaluablc franchise that doe, not expire until 1972. 'l'h<> company is expcctoo to give away too much altogether. Tha.t \Yas an instance in v.·hich thPre should have Leen a conference between the Government and the company with a view to arriYing at. some amicable arrangement so that the terms could b0 fixed. It is futile to expect any compa.ny like the City Electric Light Comparw, Limited, to "':tend its business to such an" extent a:::: i:-:; rond~rrnJlatcd and at the same time be willing to, accept such a short franchise. Of course, if the company does accept it, the GoYernmont haYe made a good bargain for the Sta!;e, but I want to SO( some alternatiYc proYicled. I do not vvant tho qut''3tion left open. becanse thrrc is graye doubt as to whether the t5hare­holders of the company will accept the GoYernment's terms. If thcv clo not. 1drat is the alternatin: \Ye ,lwtild be told that now and provi·ion rhould be made for euch an event.

If the company demand· twenty-one year', arc the Government prepared to r~ncede that term? If the Go1·ernment are ~tanding hard and fast on the ten to fifteen vears and the company is adamant on nothing less than twenty-ono years, will the matter go by the board? I think that, in deference to the public and to the shareholders of the company, something more definite "hould be put before us. If the company is to be bought out eventually, all I ask is that the socuritv shall be safe, that the investors shall lie in a position to know that at the end of the term they will receive the full Yalue of the undertaking, and that they have an opportunity during that time to enjoy reasonable dividends. If that is done, then the difficulty tha.t I see YYill be emoothed away. I hope that the Premier will be more definite on this question. I hope that he will tell us more about the suppositious case of the franchise. After all, it is a suppositious case. There is no certainty of the company's accepting fifteen years. I want to know what is the alterna­tive, and the Premier should tell us that.

Apart from these deficiencies in the Bill, as I stated before. I am quite in accord with its ultimate objective, that is, after the co-ordination of all these services, the acquisition by the Government of the \vhole of the electrical undertakings in South­Eastern Queensland. I do hope that in th& procc"s at that acquisition the person•. who are interested in those private companies will receive a fair deal and that there will be no suspicion of confiscatory or other similar measures m bringing about thi& desired objective.

Mr. MAI-IER (West Jioreton) [2.29 p.m.]: This Bill is in accord with the majority report of the Royal Commission on Elec­tricitv. A permanent State Electricity Com­mi"ion of four persons is to be appointed to take the pla.ce of the Electricity Board appointed under the Electric Light a.nd Power Acts Amendment Act of 1934. Tho powers and duties of· this commission are

State Electr·icity [9 NovEMBER.] Commission Bill. 1233

such that it is highly important that the very best men it is possible to obtain should constitute it.

The duties the Bill confers upon tl10 com­tnis.-.ion are to determine prices, subject to the right of appeal to the Industrial Court, to investigate and recommend terms and conditions to be included in any franchise, and various other matters, including the adoption of standards and the steps to be taken to obtain the ultimate co-ordination and/ or unification of electrical undertakings as well as the approval or otherwise of tf,c extension of works •J as to prevent dupli­cation and the purchase of unneceo,·al'Y plant. ·

Thc,,e are very important duties. There­fore, the Government should be particularly careful to comb the country for the most capable men to entrust with this important work. Some years ago the Victorian Govern­ment selor.tecl one of the leading men of the >Yorld in this respect, Sir John Jl;1onash, to be chairman of the Victorian Electricitv Commi"-ion, and they paid him a salary in accordancn with his qualifications. The man who is selected to be chairman of tho proposed commission in this Statn should be one of exceptional talent, and the Govern­nwnt should look round Australia for the very best man that C'lll be got and pa,- him a ... alary conuncnsurate \v}th his special qualifications. Remember that y,·e are only in the infancy of electrical expansion in Queoneland. It is important, therefore, that we should stal't under tl1o most fa.-our­ablo auspices, and that at ]oast the chair­man should be a man of outstanding know­ledge and experience and of recognised ability in the electrical world.

I should feel very sorry indeed if I thought that the Uovernment merely contemplated the reappointment of the members of the present Electricity Board to deal with matters of this kind. There may be men on that board who are competent to be appointed to the commission, but I feel that thCl'e is the clcCLr duty resting upon the Government to look round for a highly capable and outstanding man to act as chair­man of a commission of this kind, a man who has not l.Jeen merely brought up in the mould or groove of the public service, but v,ho can <lnvisage big schemp, and deal in a competent and sympathetic way with persons who- are going to risk their capital in the expansion of electrical undertakings in the State.

The PREMIER: \Ve want men, and such rnen.-

Mr. M"\HER: I am pleased that the Premier is in sympathy with my ideas. We require outstanding men with practical experience, men who are recognised as leaders of electrical enterprisG throughout Au·,tralia. I submit that a great deal of suc­ces' or failure in the important negotiations that will ensue bGtweon the commission and the City Electric Light Company, Limited, and •·uch other electric undertakings as may be considered from time to timP, hinges on the class of man appointed to the com­mission, particularly on the broadness of vision, understanding, and competence of the man who occupies the chair. There­fore, during the second req,ding of the Bill we cannot lightly dismiss the vital import­ance of the need to obtain outstanding men, especially when on their efforb will depend

entirely the success or failure of the Bill. J f the commission lacks men of thG type who can enter into successful negotiations with electric undertakings then obviously the whole objective of the Bill must fail. Its success depends ontirely on whether successful negotiations are carried through.

There arc very important negotiations to be carried out, and na.turally the question of bringing the City Electric Light Company, Limited, into compliance with the spirit of the Bill i:; the most important of all. There i, not only th<J desire of the Government as expressed in the Bill to co-ordinate electric undertakings throughout the State; there i' also their desire to establish the new principle of pnblic contrcl without ownership.

All those objectives cannot be obtained unless there is all-round agreement. :;\/either the City Electric Light Company, Limited, nor ib shareholders can be dragooned into agrccn1cnt. Thoy have their righh as expressed in the terms of their franchises, \vhieh giYe thcrn certain po"\vers and irnrrluni­tics. rrhc tcrrns of tb•c-.:e franchi:;:.c, range from ono year to forty-two years. It is not likelv that the directors or shareholders of the City Electric Light Company. Limited, are going to lightly surrender their rights if they are not fair!:,· clone by. Therefore, success largely depends on whether the com­rnj,::sion has a proper understanding of such thing,,, and whether those who constitute that commission arc prepared to conduct the negotiations in such a way as to give justice to the company. This all empha,,ises the point I make-it is desirable and important that the personnel of the commission should be given Yery serious consideration by the Goyernmcnt.

The principle of public control without own(·rship is one that I endorsed on the initiatory stage of this Bill. It is an entirely sound principle, and onG that has been adopted in many countries. For example, it has been adopted in Britain and Victoria. A great deal of headway has been made in Britain since the appointment- there of a comrni,sion of control. The number of generating plants ha·' been reduced from 500 to 130. That commission controls the distri­bution of current, but does not operate a generating plant of its own. It buys and 'ells electricity in bulk. The generating and retailing are done by local authorities and private enterprises. The cost to the ordinary customer of current for lighting is five times the cost of generating it. Transmission, dis­tribution, and overhead costs, therefore, generally constitute the bulk of the cost to the consumer. Up to date, the commission in Britain has not succeeded in reducing prices to the consumer, although it is expected that there will be some reduction, because the commission there has adopted a very similar principle to that contained in this Bill. Similarly tremendous headway has been made in Victoria, where they have adopted almost the same principle of public control enun­ciated in this Bill. At any rate, the principle of public control is definitely in thG forefront of the Victorian programme.

This Bill visualises public ownership in thf' final analysis of all electrical undertak­ings. I do not concede the ultimate necessity for public ownership. The main principle of ihis Bill establishes a very happy compromi_se, that is, public control through a comm1ss1on answerable to the Government. \Vhat more can the public want? Let us, therefore,

Mr.Maher.]

1234 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

recognise the principle of allowing private enterprise to conduct electrical undertakings under public control as the main principle in this Bill. I have no quarrel with that pro­posal at all-it is good and sound-but I do quarrel \Vith the ultimate objective of the Bill, which is public ownership. Publicly­owned undertaking,; are usuallv less efficient and more subject to the abu.ses inevitably associated with businesses controlled by elected bodi, s.

Mr. JEssox : Who told you that'! Mr. MAHER: If the hon. member for

Kennedv desires proof, let me remind him of the State enterprise, for example, which cost this State £4.700,000 out of a total investment of £5,300,000. That is a vast sum of money to be lost, and the debt is a dead ;ceight for tho taxpayers of Queensland to-day, yet, when these social objects of public ownership were under consideration a few years ago. they were publicly advocated by leaders of the Labour Party. The enthu­siastic supporters of Labour in those days -conscientiously believed that these enter­prises would achieve much for the welfare of the people.

I quote an extract from " Socialism at Work," published in 1918. to show the failure of the principle of public ownf'rship. That publication enumerated thf'sc as advan­tages to be derived from the establishment of Sta tc enterprises in Queensland-

" (1) By selling_ to the public more cheaply than pnvate enterprise does, render people better able to afford these tax eo which are una voidable:

" (2) By giving better value to the pur­chaser for his monev. either to the individual, say in the retail butcher's shop, or to the community in the shape of a building erected by day labour, increase the wealth of the country; and

" (3) By retaining for the State the profit previougly accruing to private enterprise, add to the revenue and render taxation and borrowing increasingly unnecessary.''

Mr. McLEAN interjected.

Mr. MAHER: All I am concerned with is the principle that runs through these things. Tbere is no doubt that the argu­ments used bv the author of that booklet, "Socialism at' vVork," appeared quite sound to enthusiastic Labour supporters in those days; but it is one thing to theorise about these matters and another thing to put th,,m into operation. Hon. members opposite remember their enthusiasm of those days and know how these projects worked out in practice. They learned that bodies that are answerable to the peop!C as a whole, in which political considerations inevitably come into play, find it Impossible to properly control competitive enterprise of this kind. For that reason State enter­prises were a terrible disaster, and it will take many years for the taxpayers to recover the losses that have accrued to them because of their failure.

Precisely the same principle that, actuated men in 1918 runs through the proposal for the public ownership of electric undertak­ings. Having regard to the losses suffered bv the State as a result of these enter­pi·ises, surely hon. members who :'ecollect them will hesitate before comnuttmg the State to the acquisition of great electrical undertakings involving public ownership that

[MT. ]}faheT.

would probably only end disastrously, like the State butcher shops, State stations, and the whole gamut of industrial enterprises that were acquired by the Crown in past years. So I say that this recognition of the principle of public ownership, is merely a sop to the more extreme element outside and that the more moderate-minded members of the Government Party stand for the sound principle that is contained in this Bill.

vVe should have thes0 electrical undertak­ings managed by con1petent, effirient, and cxpcrif'nced men in the realm of privat0 0ntcrprise. with public control exorcised by the commission as provided for in the Bill.

One of the principal jobs of the State Electricity Commission is to negotiate with the City Electric Light Company, Limited, for a co-ordinated servic<' for the south­eastern part of Queensland. The Govern­Dlent arc '" ise in selecting priYate enterprise to carr;;' this out. Tbis is, really, the job on which the success of the commission depends. The Gm·ernment control prices of electricity now under the existing Act. If the commission fails to bring about a co-ordinated ~ervice in the flOuth-castern part of the State it will not be justified. That is the whole thing in a nutshell. If this commission fails to bring off a satis­factory agreement for the electrification . of South-Eastern Queemhnd with the Crty Electric Light Company, Limited, and such other allied undertakings as may be taken into its dealings-if it fails in that impor~ant respect then it fails to justify its existence. That is the kNnel of the Bill, and the reason whv at the commencement of my speech I ·emphasised that it is essential that the commission ,should con­sist of men of snch a calibre that there can be no risk of failure.

The City Electric Light Company, Limited, placed the proposed scheme before the royal commission, but suggested a franchise of fortv-two vears instead of the ten to fifteen yea~s pro.:ided for in this Bill. Before the roval commission the company stated : -" It 'would not undertake the whole scheme at once nor could it under­take it at all unk~s it was giYen an assurance of suitable securitv of tenure; and the tenure .suggested by !t is forty-two years.''

Mr. JESSOK: It IS a wonder it did not ask for lOO years.

Mr. MAHER It did not ask for lOO vcars, but for what it deemed to be a i·eawnable se~uritv of tenure. If the directors and the ~hareholders of the com­pany are to be called upon to use its reserves on the one hand and to call up fresh capital on the other, they must be able to give to its shareholders and the investing public, who will supply the necessary capital for this expansion of the enterprise, son1e a.ssuranc<3 that it has a reasonable securitv of tenure. Nothing can be gained by cr'amping the undertakings of the company, if the prm­ciple of public control through the commieqion which is invoh·ed in the Bill is adopted. Parliament has already estab­lished the principle of the control of prices in tbe 1934 Act. These things are preserved to those who desire to control the company. If the companv is then called upon to embark upon th'8 expenditure of the cost of extensions and additions to plant and the erection of cxtenBi ve transrnission lines, in

State Electricity [9 N OVE~fBER.j , Comrniss·ion Bill. 1235

a very short space of time it will be involved in an outlay of anything up to £1,000,000. The company must necessarily look round to acquir0 the necessary capital and must submit to the investing public a sound business proposal.

Mr. JESSO:<:: \Yould it not get it nearly all back when the Government took it over in fiftePn years?

Mr. ::VIAHER: Fifteen ;~·ears is a long time and I cannot say what will happen in that period. A lot of water will run under the bridge. The one thing I do know is that if a Government of the same type as that at ]Hhent in power in Queensland remain in ofli<:;e, there will not be much spare ca•;h to buy anything. Basing a judg­ment. on their borrowing capacity and the way m wh1ch loan moneys are expended OJl

unreproductive work, \VC can safely say that the burden of taxation will be so great that by that time thev \vill find it extremely diflkult to acquire anything.

However, this is only idle speculation; nobody knows what will happen in fifteen years' time.

At this moment we are concerned with the important point of making a fair and reasonable agreement-an agreement bac.ed on equity-with thu City Ekctric Light Com­vany, Lirnitcd. -:\o one < -Ul ::;:.ay that we are de;tling in a fair and rea,onablc spirit if w" are not prepared to consider a franchise for more than fifteen vears. I ask the hon. member for Kennedv- and other members of his party to consider the position from the other fello·w's viewpoint. Supposing we were shareholders of the compan:. and \Yere asked to raise fresh capital in order to extend transmi>Sion lines. naturallv we should Say that W(' were prepared tO accept the extra responsibility so long as we felt we had some aecurity of tenure; but \Ye should not view the position "-ith an~ pleasure if we were going to be turned out. holus-bolus, within a few years at perhaps a gree1t loss to ouroelves. 'y c have, in considering a matter of this magnitude, to get down to hard facts and be faie in all our dealings. The company is going to be placed in a very difficult position. and I have no doubt that the directors. with some regard for their responsibilitie< will be anxious to meet the Government · in a reasonable spirit. As the Bill is at present drafted is it not possible that we are going to hamstring them-cramp their style­throttle their efforts to raise fresh capital and obtain the consent of the bhareholders to draw on reserves for the purpose of these 0xtensions, unless they feel thev are being dealt with in an understanding- and sympa­thebc way?

That highly important point is involved in this matter, and it is dealt with by 1Ir. J. H. Holmes in the "Courier-Mail" of 4th November, in which he says-

,, It could not be doubted that the onlv way in which a supply of electricity could be given throughout South-Eastern Queensland was by the (;ity El<'ctric Light Company, Limited. In these cir­cumstances it would have been reasonable to expect, considering the magnitude and the importance of the ta.;k, and the ability of the company to perform it. that a franchise would have been offered for a longer period and on more liberal terms than those suggested. The position seemed to be that, notwithstanding the

urgent need for electrification, these areas could get electricity only if all existing rights wero surrendered and a coneolidated order accepted, which would be purchased by the Government within, at the most, fifteen years. That time was altogether too short for the magni· tude of the task involved, and the outlay which would be required."

It is not difficult to appreciate the rea-.oii­a.hleness of the case presented by Mr. Holmcs. because the immediate area that \Yill come under this first order issued is densely populated and a vu·y wide area, viewed in a geographical sense. It extends from Gyrnpie right down to the border of New South "'ales, and it takes in all that country betwr>en the coast rrnd Hclidon. It is a large belt of country with a thick popula­tion. und to reticulate· it suitablv \Yith elec­trical current i.s no small tasl~. That is only the first pha·e of operation·. The f'econd cov.._·r~ a wider area, .as can be seen frorn the map that is an appendix to the synopsis furnished by the l'remier. It inclwles the Darling Downs and the ?\ anango and l{ingaroy district~. Sf'eing l hat thP compan:· has got to accept its full responsibility there, surely the Government must not hesitate to meet it fairly.

The keY \\ords of j\,;lr. Holmes's state· ment are,'" The time is alt(}ccthcr too short for thP magnitude of the ta,k im·oh-ed and the outlav which would he required." Surelv the Government must pav heed to ;;uch ;m authority'! I am absolutelv certain that the periocl of ten to fifteen years is not long enough for the pur]lose. If I were a shareholder of the company I Fhould strongly oppose the company's agreeing to any con­dition that would involve it in the possi­bility of great losses, necessitating the use of re,;en-es or asking the public for furi her capital, unless I felt sure that the Govern­ment, through their commission, were being fair to the company by granting a reason­able quid pro quo. I should want to feel sure that the commission, acting for and on behalf of the Government, was prepared to give the company a reasonable franchise in exchange for the possible expenditure of £1,000,000. I cannot agree that ten t(} fifteen years constitutes a fair exchange at all. 'l'hereforo, I cay that this is one of the most important aspects of the Bill.

I should like to deal now with the power to enforce supply. I am wondering what will happen in the event of an agreement with the company for a limited franchise. I am wondering whether, for example, once the agreement has been signed, the company might not feel the need to go slow in the extension of transmission lines. That is to '"Y· if the company does not get v:hat it believes to be a fair franchise for the magni­tude of the task and the outlay involved, will there not necessarily arise in the minds of those concerned in the direction of its enterprices an unwillingness to go too far? In other words, will the compan0 not limit its expenditure from year to year as fat· ae that is possible? I should say that that would be a fairly natural feeling on the part of the directorate of 0uch a company. I should think that the directors would not be prepared to move out ;o enthusiastic,~lly and to accelerate the construction of tr>tns­mission lines and the extension of plant in cYery dirertion under such circun1sta.nces; aR they would if they had a more generous franchise. The thought then occurs as to

M1'. "~iaher.1

1236 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

how far, under such circumstances our rural people-who have boen looking forward to ~ Bill of this kind for some time and who need rural electrification-may be prevented from obtaining the fulfilment of their •:lesires within a reasonable time.

How long will the people in the outlying varts of the south-eastern districts who haYe been anxious for rural electrification and have fought in season and out of season for f;0D1C such agreement as is contained in the Bill have to wait if the company feels that it cannot enthusiasticalh undertake the rapid con•;truction of tra'!Jsrnission lines because of the limited pPriod of the fran­<:hise. That is iho point that I should like to emphasise to the Premier, because it n1a.,v arise, even after the conunis.:;ion ha"' taken the negotiations up to an important point. The company may say that as it has only a limited period within which to operate it would be unwise to embark upon costly undertakings. I know that th0rc is ample power in the Bill to enforce supply from the company, but could the Govern­ment fa.irly force the company to embark upon costly schemes unless they gave it a reasonable quid pro quo?

:Mr. JESSON: You know that you are putting up Aunt Sallies.

Mr. l\IAHER: I do not see any Aunt Rallies about it at all. I should sav that it is very likely that the company ,1-ould be disinclined to embark upon costly under­takings in the absence of a nrot·c generous franchise.

The PRE:~IIER: It will embark upon the undertaking-s that it agrees upon.

Mr. MAI-IER: That brings me back to the original proposal, which I dealt with a moment ago-whether the directors and the shareholders will be prepared to enter into an agreement involving C'Ostly undertakings of that magnitude without a generous fran­chise.

The PRE~IIER: I have not the slightest doubt that the company will carry out an;· undertaking that it gives.

Mr. MAHER: I know that it will, but. will it give the undertaking? It is one thing to call the spirits from the vasty deep, but will they come? That is another thing. I am not a shareholder in the company, but for the purpose of my argument I am placing m"elf in the position of ono who will be faced with the position created by the Bill.

Mr. GLEDRO!-:: \Vhy not give some con­sideration to your constituents, the con­sunlers?

Mr. MAHER : That is what I want to do. I want to encourage the company to acceler­ate the construction of transrnission line~ and the extension of plant, not only in the area con•red by the first order in term<, of the Bill, but aho in the wider areas set out on the map attached to the synopsis. I do not know whether the Premier and his supporters have given the prover rneasure of deep consideration to this point and whether they are being really fair to the company. There is not the slightsst doubt that the directors will carry out all that they agree to -do-that does not come into the argument-but is Parliament calling upon the company to do more than a fair thing, and is there likely to be a position of stalomat0 in the negotiations between the

[Mr. Maher.

company and the commission. If the ·com­pany refuses to enter into the agreement, what is going to be the position then" What will be the outcome? The whole effect of the Bill will be stultified. Yet they will be within their rights in refusing. They are not likely to do so, because they are bound to have a sense of their respon­sibilities to the Government and to the public. Yet I feel the Government are not treating them fa.irly in the meagre fran­chise they are conceding tq, them, herring Ill mmd th8 very big task and also the Yery great amount of expenditure involved.

I want to touch on one other phase of the Bill-that is, the questwn of certain areas that have been left out of it for reasons I find it rather difficult to comprehend. A glance at the map of South-Eastern Queens­land will show that the shires of Goolman and Xormanby are e·,sential to a proper system of electricity supply. J\'o doubt it is intended that these areas shall Le added to the scheme subsequently, but there is no reason why thev should not be included from the begin­ning. I have a particular interest in the shin• of Normanby. I know that the pC'ople at Harrisvillo in that shire. which is within my electorate, have for a long time looked forward to the electrification of that district. 'Thev haw' heon negotiating with the Ipswich Electric Supply Company, Limited, for a conRidcrable period. For game reason difficult to comprehend these districts are not included in any immediate scheme. A glance at the map ill show how easy it will be to include them. It seems rathet· extraordinary that thev have been excluded. I am hoping that ways and means will be found when the Bill reaches the Committee stage,' to have the,.e important areas embraced, as they can be easily and econo­micall:v linked up with the general scheme in the first Order that is icsued.

Mr. TAYLOR: Would .1·ou vote for the Bill if those districts were included?

Yrr. MAHER: The inclusion' of these dis­tricts has nothing to do with the main prin­ciples contained in the Bill. I am only drawing attention to the fact that no pro­Yision exists in the schedule for the electnfi­cation of these two important districts. It seems a very great pit:v th<:t those al'eas, which are so close to Ipswich and Beau­desert and which can be so easily and econo­mically linked up with any scheme, are not included in the schedule.

The PRE~1IER : There is power to include them.

Mr. MAHER : That may be so, at some future time. The City Electric Light Com­pany, Limited, will naturally proceed imme­diatelv with electrification of the areas covered by the first Order in Council.

Mr. DEFCTY SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. gentleman has exhausted the time allowed him under the Standing Order·,,

Mr. NICKLI::\1" (Jiurrumba) [3.8 p.m.]: This Bill is one of the most important that have come before the House this session. There will not be much difference of opinion about the principles it sets out to establish. although there ma, be some divi,ion of opinion of how they are to be put into effect.

The feature of the Bill that particularly interests me is the fact that it tends to improve the conditions of our country people. As the Premier mentioned i'l his second

State Electr-icity [9 NovEMBER.] Commission Bill- 1237

readmg speech, electricity 1s of definite social and economic Importance in the life of the people, as well as the State. No invention of recent years has had such a great bearing on power and light problems as electricity. It has definitely improved our social conditions and has meant a defi­nite advance· to manufacturing interests and eYcr,rone using electricity as a source of power.

This State certainly has lagged behind 111

e-lectrical development in !'cccnt years. According te> the report oE the Royal Com­mission on Electricity onlv 211} units a head of popnlation are c'onsur{,ed in this S_tate, the lov1·est amount in any State in the L'om­mouwealth. \Yestern Auotralia is compar­able to Queensland in area and distribution of populaticn, and th.:tt State consumes 386 units a head of population.

Investigation .Jiscloses that in recent years ·other countri0s have made definit< ach-ances in the utilisation of electricity. Even in small continental countrie-.. such as Belgium and Denmark, for many yPars the country­side has been traversed by power lines giving the rural population the advantag,e of elec­tric power and light. Nearer home, in ?\ew 7~GaJ.and, many of tho country districts have be<>n developed as a result of cheap electric power made available by the hydro­elec·tric undertakings that abound in that Dominion. The f"ltablishment of elec­tricity schemes in that country has been of definite advantage to the people.

Since the Eledricitv Commission was estaQ­!ishecl in Victoria, the demand for electric power and current has grown to such an extent that the commission has r,ecommended to the Government an -extension of its operation··. by the construction Df another hydro-eledric scheme at Kiewa, additions to the plant and the establishment of more generating stations in the metropolitan area, involving an expenditure of approximately £8,000,000 within the next eight or ten years.

One of the things that hampered electric development in Queensland was that with the exception of North Queensland there were no hydro-electric possibilities, and we have had to depend for our electric power on st0am plant or plant driven by imported fuel, and therefore the development of elec­tricity in this State has not progressed to the extent it otherwise would. Undoubtedlv the price factor had some bearing on retard­ing the use of electric power. In recent years the price for power in the metro­politan ar-ea has decreased to an extent that its use is attractive for h0ating and refriger­ation. Unfortunately, the country people of this State--with the excDption of those living in the areas where the Citv Electric Light Company, Limited, and its 'as,ociated ·company the Ipswich Electric Snpply Com­pany, Limited, have extended their plants­and that only applies to a small portion of the south-eastern part of the State­have not been able to enjoy the comcni•mcc of cheap electricity.

One paragraph in the report of tho Hoyal Commission on Electricity as to the nePd for the supply of electricitv to conntrv dis­tricts impressed me. I thi~k it wonh. whik repeat_in!' it. .on page 8 9f the report the comn11ssron sard-

" To thB average townsman electr!city is almost as neoessary as " w.:tter la.irl on,' and more necessary than a rnocicr;l

se'serage systen1. Tho COlJnt.ry dweller usually must do without all three. Yet elcctricitv probably does more to make the lot of the country woman livable than any other city amenity. The exten­sion of electricity to the ru,·.'Ll ar~as of the State is ono of the, best u.,;encies in arresting the drift to the eit,ies, spur­ring the landholder to his be,;!· eiforts because it makes his vvt>rk lo~s lalJorious and more lucr-ati.-o and his family's sur­rourH.lingb rnore congenial."

That statcnwnt is very pt•rtinent L:ccaw;e it is our objective to make the a:nenit ies cf city life a.-,ailable to the coun! "Y people. That can be accomplished best by ensm·ing to countr.: peopk an adequate supply of cheap electricity. If the objective of this Bill is attained it should help considerably in that 1-espcct.

Undoubtedly, the efficiency of the wor': of country pt lple is considerably increase:! by having cheap ele.etrical power available to them. In recent years the City Electric Light Company, Limited, has extended its operations into the districts adjacent to the metropolis. On rising in the morning +.he c'tv dweller finds his milk on the back ste.ps hut he does not think of the con­ditions nndor which that milk was pro­clue. :l. Dntil recently the producers supply­ing· milk to the metropolis had to use hurricane lamps when chasing their cows round the yard in the middle of the night. ~\1anv of them have now the advantages of elect1·ic light in their milking yards and bails, thus lightening their arduous con­ditions to a certain extent.

Electricit;c· has also played its part in irrigation systems. The Lockyer district is an exceptionally fine example of what electric power moans to country people. As a re 0

•• :t of the use of cheap electric power for irrigation plants many farmers who otherwise would have been unable to do so carried on during the ,recent disastrous drought. An instance has been quoted of a farmer running an irrigation plant who hst year paid income tax to over £100, wlwreas his neighbour, who did not irri­gate, finished the year's operations with a clclicit of £100. It has been stated by a member of one of the shire councils of that arBa that because electric power is avail­able for irrigation purposes in that district the value of the land ha' increased from £2 to £3 an acre.

Th,,,,e are pa,sing eYamples of what a supply of cheap electrical power can do for ccuntr: districts. The report of the royal commission also mentioned the value of dectric~l power to country districts and in particular refers to Maleny, the well-known dairying district on the ?\ orth Coast. It was given in evidencn that the d,airv farmers in that area paid annually over £6,000 for imported fuel 'to operate their milking machines, chaff cutters, and similar machines.

This area will be dealt with when this Bill comes into effect. It offers excellent possibilities for rural electrification in that ,t. i,, n•n• closely settled, and with the erection of a few miles of transmission lines everv farmer in the area would have electric power at his disposal.

It is only possible to give this &ervice to the country peoplB by way of co-ordination of the various electrical authorities in the south-eastern cornBr of the State. The Bill

Mr. Nicklin.]

1238 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

sets out to do this. L'udoubtedly, the day of the small individual electrical unit has passed. It could not supply power at an attractive pric0 and had the additional dis­advantage of having to use imported fuel as a motive power. At the. prr-,ent time far too much money is cent om of the country for fuel. Large ·plants using the grid system will undoubtedly proYe bendicial to the dwellers of the country districts. Many examples haYD been already given of how the replacement of small and inefficient power houses by larger electrical stations has resulted in " supply of cheaper elDctrical puwer.

I should like to congratulate the members of the Roval Commission on Electricity on the very · comprchensi\ e nature of their renort. It i a valuable one and the recom­mi'ndations conta in<>d in it are very helpful in the solution of the problem we are faced with. The Government are wise in basing the provisions of this Bill upon the recom­mendations containNl in that report. The commission recommended a co-ordinated ser· vice for South-Eastern Queensland on planned and economic lines. If one looks at the map attached to the synopsis of the Bill furnishecl by the Premier, one will observe that the tranPnli~sion line··) recon1mended do not duplicate prc,<cnt services in anv way, and that they go through the country so as to touch the most th ickJ,,- populab'd areas-those most in need of a supply of electric energy. If the recommendations of the commission arc given effect to, the people in the areas specified will enjoy the advantages of electricitv.

It is a, great pity there has not been ·;omo co-ordination in this respect before. \Ye have the spectacle at the present time of two large pov:er houses in the city area not working on economical loads. If there had been co-ordination at the time the second power house was built or if there had been power to p1·event its being built, there would not be the waste that exi~ts at the present moment. It is not economical to have t\vo large power houses in the metropolitan area unless both are mod to capacity. \Yhcn the provisions of this Bill apply, no doubt both power houses will be given an economical load to carry.

\Yhen considering any electrical under· taking it is essential that we should plan ahead. \Ye should look to the future antl endeavour to calculate our requirements vear,s ahead, as Victoria has. V.T e must not overlook future possibilities when consider­ing the requirements for the south-eastern corner of Queensland. I should like to quote an extract from the report of the Victorian Electricitv Commission that emphasises the obligation that resh on our pronosed commission, not only to cope ·with present requirement'·, but also to keep m mind the requirements of the future-

" Lest it may be thought that large further investments in generating plant

·can be obviated or postponed, it should be explained in general terms that the growth of demand is beyond the control of an electricity supply authority. Every tenement and every factorv is free to draw current, an~d to Increa-se it's c.onsumi11g dcYices at it's own will and pleasure. Consequently when an existing system of supply has reached full load conditions, the inevitable further increase of consumption cannot be

[}lr. Nicklin.

pre' ented, with the result that the s\Stem becomes overloaded. The effect o.f sustained overload-a part from the risks of serious breakdowns of essential plant-is to render the service, in it's entirety, irregular and unreliable, to the disadvantage and inconvemence of the whole body of consumers. It is, there­fore, the paramount duty of every supply authority to ensure that it's plant capacity is, at all times, available in adYance of public r<>quirements."

In .addition, it is necessary to ensure that the cost of electricity to the consumer i, not beYond his mean''. No matter what the forrn of generation maY be, the ultimate• cost of electricity to the public is divisible into two parts, the first being. ea pita.l aucl other heavy charges, such as the cost of the generating plant, transmission lines, etc., and the second, operating costs. The most ccono1nical generating systP-rn is that in which each is reduced to the minimum. In order to achieve this verv clesirablo objec­tive. it is essential that the capital charge.; be spread over the greatest possible number of generating hours, that is to say, \Ye

must ha,·e a uniform distribution of load on'r the twenh-four hours of the dav. That i, the advantage to be gained by I1aving a combination of cit.v and rural loads. During the night. when the load on the station is at its peak in the ~ity. not a great amount of electricity is being mod in the rural areas; on the other hand, during the day­light hours, when the load in the cities is less the rural districts may take their share of the energv for the running of irrigation plants and other farming appurtenances. It can be seen, therefore, that there is a definite field for co-ordination of the cite· and rural areas. For that reason. too. it is obvious that the most economical service is that which ensures a uniform distribn­tion of a maximum load during the whole twenty-four hours of the day.

Another question to be considered is that of public ownership versus private enter· prise. \Ye in Queensland have not had a very happy experience of public ownership. 'l'here is no need for me to stre'cs the losses that were made in State enterprises in past years-that is a sad history that is best forgotten. We must admit, however, that private enterprise in Queensland, the City Electric Light Company, Limited, in parti­cular, has shown that it has the capacity to deal with this problem. The company has done Dxceptionally well. The consensus of opinion throughout the world to-day seems to be that the time has arrived when a public utilit:· like electricity should. be con· trolled by the public. In the earlier provisions of the Bill a happy combination has been arrived at. An endeavour is made to combine all the busine>·s acumen shown by the cornpan~- with public controL through the medium of the Electricitv Com­mission, the ultimate objective being. public ownenhip. That is ,a worthy objective, and one that should meet w!th the apl1roval of all hon. lllembers of th1s House.

At this stage, I should like to pay a tribute to the City Electric Light Company, Limited, for the efforts that it has made to induce the rural residents to use electrical energy. The company's representatives have conducted parties into areas already reticu­lated, and encouraged other areas to insta I electrical appliances for the convenience and:

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.] OommissZon Bill. 1239

benefit of the communitv. reticulation line, is of benefit to the consumer'. an ultimate benefit to the production.

The extension of conn:~-nience a11rl.

but it alw means State in inrrcascd

An interesting compariom of the method' of private enterprise and those of public ownership is to be. found in the evidence that was submitted to the Ro:·al Commission on Electricity. I refer now to the pro­pawls tendered by the City Electric Light Company and the Brisbane City Council for the electrification of the North Coast.

The proposals by the Brisbane City Council were indefinite and in many respects invoh·ed compulsion. They '\'ere de•-cribed bv the commission as being more or le's half-baked and not offering a proper basis for an electric undertaking, wher·eas tbe schcmP submifted by the company was held to be be1sinesslikc to the last detail, and one that had been framed after due regard to all the essentials of such a schem0. It could not be faulted or improYed upon by the commission, eepeci­ally that part of it in respect of North Coast electrification. The Xorth Coast dis­trict, which has clamoured for electrification for a considerable time, offers splendid oppor­tunities for rural electrification, especially as it embraces one of the most thicklv popu­lated shires in Queensland, the M;1roochy shire, with quite a large number of town­ships. It also embraces a considerable rural population who would be extensive users of electrical energy. Then there are also the seaside towns of Caloundra, Mooloolaba. "-'1aroochydor0, and Tewantin. which would also consume a large quantity of electrical energy. There is a crying need for elec­tricity in those districts and thev offer a splendid field in this respect. '

As the Premier pointed out during his second reading speech. the local authorities in the area are not prepared, nor are they in a position, to carry out the electrification of these areas. They were not able to carry out the suggestion of the Brisbane City Council to buy the current in bulk and re-dis­tribute it because of the capital cost that would be involved. They thought that it would be better to use their loan resources for the construction of roads instead of dect~ical undertakings that would be likelv to involve thPm in losses. The Premier 'has already quoted figures to show that thi' would probably be the ultimate. outcome of such schemes. There is onlv one electric authority in. the area that w·ill haYe to be taken o,:er, and that is the N ambour electric authority, which is controlled bv the Maroochy Shire Council. Personally: I do not think that there will be any difficulty there because the Bill has been welcomed by the chairman of the shire, who in a state­ment said that under the new arrangement Nambour would obtain electric current at a cost 50 per cent. lc>s than it pavs to-dav. Nor do I expect that there will be· anv diffi­culty in arriving at the capital vaiue of the undertaking when it is taken over.

There is another example of lack of co-ordination in the electrification of the North Coast. I refer to the construction of the power line to the Stanley River Dam by the Brisbane City Council. I am satis­fied that if the commission had been in exist­ence before the construction of that line it would not have sanctioned it. It has been con­structed to Caboolture, and through Kilwy, but for half the length from here to Cabool-

ture it duplicated an existing service, which, of com·se, means \Yaste. The construction of the line was rushed through by the Brisbana City Council. In fact, it was built even before permission had been obtained from the GoYernmcnt, and it was necessary for the Goyernment to pass a Bill later on to ratify the action of the council.

The council built that transmis.oion line through local authorit~· areas without oven a.~king permission. Trees ''"ere felled all over the ro1d, ancL generally Bpcaking, its cm"truction was carried out in a high-handed V\ ay. This transmission }jne affects Cabool­ture and the surrounding are:t particularly. The Dill contains a proYision whereby the Cit' Electric Light Company Limited. if it receiYes the franchi'e for the North Coast area. can buy it; supplie-, of electricity in bulk from the Brisbane City Council. Sup­pliee can be tapped from that transmission lino to supply Caboolture and the surround­ing areas. That seems to be a feasible solution of the problem. ProYision is also made for the purchase of this trammission line by the authority controlling the elec­trification of the :-.lorth Coast areas when the Bureau of Industry ha~ completed the construction of the Stanley River .dam.

I hope immediately the commission has been c-,tablishBd no delay will take place in deciding what is to be do!le at Cabool­ture and in the surrounding areas. For almost tweh·e months the transmission lines of the Brisbane Citv Council have been erected through the ~b·eets of Caboolture, yet its residents have not been able to get the benefits of it. It should be one of the first objects o£ the commission to take stops to ensure that Caboolture has the benefit of electrical energy from that power line.

There is one redeeming feature concern· ing the power line to the Stanley River dam, and that is it will fit in with the general scheme of power lines when the south-eastern scheme is completed. There will be limited hydro-electric possibilitioc, at the Stanlcy Hiver Dam. I observe that the constructing engineer's estimate is that in the wet sea,on it will be nossible to produce -daily 1.000 kilowatts cf --electricity, and 400 kilo" atts daily in the drier periods. \Ve all know that electricity generated by a hydro electric schem" is yery chertp. The electricitv so generated could be transmitted via the St.:nlcv River Dam transmissi'Dn line to the :'\orth 'coast transmitting stations at \Voodford and other places.

This debate ha.s revealed quite a diver­gence of opinion as to differences thait may arise in the acquisition of the present electric authorities. As I ment\oned earlier, I -do not expect that any difficulty will arise with the Maroochy authority, which ,eemc. qmte prepared 'to hand over its underhking at a fair valuation, believing that the con­sumers will greatlY benefit at the reduced rate they will be' called upon to pay for power.

The principles set down in the schedules of the Bill as to the valuation of the electric authority and for allowance for the unexpired part of a franchise seem to me to be quite fair. It is provided that the City Electric Light Company, Limited, will under certain conditions rccoi ve a fJ anchise under an Order in Council the minimum period being ten years and' the maximum fifteen years. That is altogether too short. I hope that the Premier will reconsider thi•

Mr. Nicklin.l

1240 S+ate Electr:city [ASSE}IBLY.] Commission Bill.

pha,,e of the subject when the Bill 1s l1cing con,idered in Committee with a view to pro l'iding· for an extension of this period. The City Electric Light Company, Limited, will be called upon te> expend £1.000.000 in the reticulation of South,Ea,ter!l Queens, land. Fifteen vears is a vcrv short time indec·d. It wilf take a few ve.ars after tho transmi"ion lines are erected to get the a1ca in full production. It will take at lca~t tweh,c months to build the main trans­Jni.s::'ion line, and it \Yill take anoth,~r t:OUlJle of year· before the whole a1 ea will be adequately reticulated, and the resultant adYantatsc~ can be obt,p,incd by the cornpany. That leav0 only elm,en or t.wel\'c vcars in Y;hich to f;et had< the int.erect on the largo amount that it \Yil! invcot in the undertaking. I truot that careful consideration \\ill be given to this a'pcct of the matter and that a period of ten to fifteen Years as the Rill provides will not be laid" down as a hal'Cl and fast rule.

The charge of 10 per cent. on city prices to country ror1~ urn er.~ is a very fair one, and is tho price that the Citv Electric Lig·ht Comp.,n:, Limited. offc-'' d 'the :'\orth Cc: a ".t people ·whPll 1t Y: .. ~ prepared to reticu­'ctte th" whole of that area. The Xambour example quoted by the ·Premier demon,trates that the cotJOumer,; could have received elec­n·ic po-..yer nnc1er that offer at approxinuttel:7

half the price the,\ a re va.ying.

The proYi~ion for diYiding an area into sections and making a time limit for the ~upply within thot3e areas is a 'vise one. In the past co1npanies have bren given franchises and the people within those areas have bePn denied the conveniences of elec­tric power because tJlO operating authority did not carry out the provi>ions of the franchise.

I had hoped that the Premier would have giv-en some indication as to the personnel of the commission during his second reading 'l'eech. 'Cpon it devolve·· a mighty big job. It is given very wide powers, and the whole snccess of the Bill depends on how that power is exercised. \Ve should have had some indication from the Premier as to how he intends to constitute the commis­sion. 'Cnfortunately, there does not appear t" be any Sir John Monash in sight in Queensland to take charge of the operations of the commission. \Vhen we consider the magnitude of the operations the commis­sion will ha Ye to control we realise the need for great care in selecting the mem­bers of the commission. It is absolutely bsential that W 0 should select the most competent men offering because on their decisions will depend the success or failure of this scheme in South-Eaotern Queensland.

I think the provision to appoint the com­nlis:-ioners for seven years is a wise one, because it ensures continuity of planning and enables them to evolve a scheme of benefit to the State.

},lany districts in Queensland, particularly the 2'\orth Coast areas, have been waiting for electricity for years. Representations were made to the Government, and aB a result tho Roval Commis·,ion on Electricitv was appointe·d, and now a Bill founded on the recommendations of that commission has been introduced. I hope that when the Bill i, passed no time will be lost in putting it into operation and giving the benefits of electric fJO\\'Cr to those people who have been waiting for it so long.

[Jir. Xicklin.

:Mr. MULLER (li'assijern) [3.45 p.m.]: A perusal of the Bill indicates that it virtually confirms public opinion of the past. Not­withstanding that a number of local authori­ties haYe time and again approached the Government for permission to erect trans­mission lines into their district-s the right has never been given. After hearing the Prernicr thi•c 1norninf[ and 0xamining the Bill, I tlnd that it is reallv a confirmation of the requests that have been made over a number of years. It was rather amusing to hear the hon. gentleman tell tho House that it \\<lS part of the Government's policv to c!ectrif:; the whole of Southern Queensiand. That has been the desire of the residents of these districts for years. It is nothing new to suggest that rural districts should be given a SllllPly of c·heap, electricity; but in the past the difficulty has been that with ~mall generating stations it was impossible to reticul 1-tP the areas con_ccrned. ~lon•oycr, the rate was much too htgh.

Tho question arisec whether the Bill will enable the commission or the Citv Electric Light Company. Limite-d, to run transmission linos into all the rural districts. After an examination of the map and a stndy of the consolidating orcl0r I fmd that a large part of rural territorY is still excluded. v\'ith a short franchise there is the danger that these areas will still lack electric power for a long period. With a franchise of from ten to fifteen years. I am rather afraid there is tho danger that the company will not erect transmission lines into the whole of the territory. Much pioneering work is neces­sary. First of all, the generating company \Yould haYo to be convinced that a trans­mission line into a certain rural district '''ould P<Y. Certainly a nurnbcr of fanners would connect up after a very short period, but others would never take a supply. Con­sequently, it may take years to saturate a district. A city cornpany rnay ht;:,,itate in building transmission lines into country dis­tricts.

I also obsen-e that e\'en if all the provi­~.ions of this Bill were carried into effect we should still be as we were. I observe that the Lockver district will not be in a different position. The rate to be charged is to be based on city prices, plus 10 per cent. These rates already operate in that district. Some few weeks since the Secretary for Public Instruction, discussing certain oxh1bits dis­playpd at the :\'atioual Show, pointed out that much of it was the result of irrigation made possible by a supply of cheap electric power. There remains the fact, however, that up to the present a large part of our rural districts have not obtained a supply of current.

I welcome the Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but my trouble is that so far as it is con­cerned there still remains the dang·er that progress will be hampered. I know there will be a rush by many of our country dis­tricts to become linked up.

The Pm.:~nEn : 'fhcre will be no delay in your district, and you can t.ake that from me.

Mr. MULLER: I am glad to ha Ye the Premier's a'surance. Looking at the map supplied to hon. members as to the area "'ithin the consolidated order there <tppears to be a slight danger that that might not be eo.

I am cone :rned a littl0 with the comtitu­tion of the commission to be appointed. I

;::,·tate 1:)/ectncity [9 KovEMBER.] Commission Bill. 1241

hope that the members will he fJUalifiecl men and able to undertake the c' ntrol of ~"uch a Ya~t scherne. I fttn not suggesting for onr moment that t h · Government \vill a ppolnt incorr1pctent rnen to tl10 comrnis sion, hnt men with ability and training ~houlcl be appOinted to control ond arlminis­( <'r the vari-cns functions dPlegatcd to the ro!1lmif·;~ion. Durin~s the initiation f;tage of tlns Il1ll I referred to the fact that one district was paying four time•· as much for its C1!lTCnt as was being paid in the rity area. Tne. ptcscnt o,:cJ.er fer the Boonah district c.xpJrcs toome time next year and I an1 a httle conce:·ned, seeing that that area is not to be mcludcd under the first Order. ~f the City Electric Ligl;t Company, Limited, 1s able to bmld transm1ssion lines into these areas within one or two yf'ars we shall not have rntH'h cause for complaint.

Mr. l\IAX~VELL (Toou·onu) [3.52 p.m.]: I can am~reciate the anxiety of 0ur countrv members ."! connection with the iiHitallatio;} of ?lectncJty m country districts. It is realised that the benefits to btc derived from the ~upply of electric current by th0 c,e in the c1ty shou] cl als'! be extended to the people who arc pwneermg the ccuntrv outside City areas. "

~ listened with great interest to the Pre­mier on his introduction of the Bill and also h_is. second reading speech. Hon. members s1ttmg hf'hind him are prepared to nmain sdent. They seem to think that all that is necessary is for their leader to speak, and there t~e matter can be left. That fact emphasises something I drew attention to earlier in the session in connection with the busmess of the House. I said that a Bill was decided upon in the caucus room, one or t":o hon. members on the Government side m1ght .speak, the Opposition might offe1· sng-gestwns and submit amendments but the

· Bill went through in the same fo;·m as it lpft the caucus room. \Ve feel the absence of that old revising Chamber-the Legislative Council.

I haY·e listened to the stories of hon. mem­bers. as to the wonderful opportunities to be re.ah sed as a result of the passage of this B!ll. The Prem1er said the slogan for the BJ!l could be "Electricity in abundance for all the peopl·e at low prices." My mind \Yent back to 1918. In a book called "Socialism at vyork," it was wonderful to read of the faith that the publishers of that book were going to instil int, the people. It suggested that the profits that would ~ccrue from State ·enterprises would re,ult m reductwn of taxation and that eventually the community would be virtuallv free of taxation and evervthing 'was goin;,. to be Yery pleasant. " ~

It is said that experience teaches those who have the ability to profit bv it. \Ve find, howeYer, that members of the Labour Part_v have not profited by experience. Despite the heavy loeses that were made in our Stat<c enterprises it is now proposed to launch out on another one. Whilst one hon. ~ember on this side of the House was speak­Ill!<, an hon. member on the Government side interjeQted, " What about the State insura,nre ?,',' I said, " That is a State monopol:c. Any man who cannot make " profit out of a business when he is in a position to fix his own price .and to compel the people to do business with him is not fit to be in any important positior{,

The SECRETARY FOR L.\EOl:R .\XD I:-;nrsnw : They have not got a monopoly of all the Lus.inc~s.

:\Tr. l\IAX\YELL: But they are trying ·hard to get it.

I ha YC never yet seen an~, Govcrnrnent. Labour or otlwr\visc, rnakini any atten1pt to control an industry that was not profit. able. So soon as it is found that it is possible to get a monopoly of any business and so earn .a profit to thn disadvantago,' o£ private enterprise, the GoYcrrunent desire to control it. After our experience of the wa,,te of n1oney on Stat"-=' entcrpris('-;-a lo~i of £4.700,000 out of £5.300,000 invested­it is ec.sential that we should be sure of our grounds before embarking upon another State enterprise. Here the Government propose to establihh a commission. and once it is in full operation they will make It an electio:n crv. TJ1ey will sav. '' Elec­tricity is a. public utility, it belo;1gs to the people, and it is essential that we should control it in the interests of the peoplC"." l\1~· friend, the lertder of the 1Jnited ) .. us­tralia Party, pointed out that another factor must be considered-that while publir utilities are desirable we must also consider the individual.

I wa.s greatlv imprc•scd b~- the statement,, made by the Premier. The hon. gentleman led us to believe that the who1e scheme "as dependent npon an agreement between the City Electri<' Light Company, Limited. and the commission as to the value of the con1pany's undertakings. The company v;ould then surrender a 11 its existing Orders in Council and in return would receiv0 a. consolidated Order for not less than ten or more than fifteen years, and the company could be required to sell to the Gm-err,. ment at the agreed price, either at the expiration of this period or at the end of any ~nbsequent year.

At 4 p.m., Mr. KING (Maree), one of the panel of

Temporary Chairmen. relieved Mr. Deputy Speaker in the chair.

Mr. MAXWELL: The hon. member for Hamilton said that he was rather glad to hear from the Premier that the Bill did not mean repudiation or confiscation.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTC:RL AXD STOCK : Have you discovered some?

Mr. MAXWELL: I see repudiation here. I need only refer to a statement made bv the chairman of directors of the City Electric Light Company, Limited. Hon. membflrS have already said that we cannot hope for success with this measure unless we enlist the co-opuation of the company. What is to be the outcome if we cannot? Does the Premier not think that hP is bound to make a reply to the statement by the chairman of directors of the company? If he cannot remove the doubt that is in the mind of the chairman of that company, then we are up against it good and hard. This state­ment setting out the views of Mr. Holmep., chairman of directors of the company, on the Bill, appeare~ in the " Courier-Mail " of the 4th of th1s month-

" Further, when it was considered that the City Electric Company, Limited, and the Ipswich Electric Supply Company, Limited, held Orders in Council which could not be purchased before 1972, and the shareholders of the companies w~re

Mr. Maxwell.l

1242 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Oornrnts0ion Bill.

prot<>cted by being ensured proper com­pensation in the event of acquisition, the proposal became even less attractive."

He go('s on to ~ay~ " The City Electric Light Company,

Limited, is as desirous as i' the Govern­ment of seeing that electricity is made available throughout the countryside, and it will certainly act reasonably in any negotiations with the commission. The rights of the company's shareholders cannot however, be sacrificed, and it will require grave consideration whether the company can afford to give up its exist­ing rights for what is now offered to it."

The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock asked by way of interjection if I had found repudiation in the Bill. I find it here in the staiement bv the chairman of dir·cctors of the company, who said that they had Orders in Council that could not be purchased before 1972, but by one stroke of the pen the Government can repudiate those Orders in Council, I ;uppose on the plea that the King can do no wrong.

Hon. members have pointed out daily and almost hourly the injury that may be done to the consumers if certain action is not taken, but they know, as well as I know, that there is adequate protection for the consumers.

Let me give an illustration of what I mean. ·we are almost deaf with the criu bv hon. members opposite about the benefits that accrue from municipal enterprise. The Bris­bane City Council has an electrical under­taking, but it cannot give a better service than the City Electric Light Company, Limited. One of the finest compliments ever paid to private enterprise was paid by the royal commLsion when it expressed the opinion that the scheme wbmitted by the company was feasible and much echead of the ono outlined by the Brisbane City Coun­cil. It is well known that private enterprise can provide a considerably better ,nrvice than one controlled by a municipality or even bv the Government. I will tell hon. members why. \Ye have had an experience of State enterprises. Hon. members opposite know just as well a·c I do that all that a worker in an undertaking worries about is the iob, not whether it is owned and controlled" by pri\ ate enterprise or not. But when State enterprises were in operation n1cn wcro not employed because they we;·e comjwi:Ctlt. The rnanagement v. ,15 ~inlJlly told b:v a nletnber <Jf the party opposite that he was a friend of his and had to go on. Hon. members opposite know full well that has been done in certain public institution·· in this city and through­out the State. \Ye also know that the Government do not believe in encouraging the development of private industry.

I view th's Bill \Yith "· certain amnnnt of concern. There are sorne good features in it. A, the lec-.dcr of my party has said, it is good in parts, like the curate's egg. I hope when we reach the Committee stag<l it will be po'"ible to improve it in <"'ertain rt-apects.

The " Courier-:\Iail " of the 13th Septem­ber last emphasised cmphaticallv the state­ment I made in connection' with the Government and private industrv. [i said- '

" rrhc Governrnent h:tfl ;;;et nn a, course which must keep private industry in fetters and make citizens of the ~tate increasingly dependent for employment

[Mr. Ma.xt.ven.

on relief works financed by taxation and borrowing. BY this means the GoYern­ment m a V advance the SOCialiea.tion objective of the party, but at. the cost of increasing Queensland's lag 1n md':'s­trial -development and mdustnal deYelopment. as other States haYe soundly recognised, is the only permanrmt cure for unemployment."

SurelY hon. members will admit the truth of tl1at contention? The socialisation of industrv is the objective of tbe Labour Partv. ' It mav be said that the aim of this Bill ' is the 'nationalisation of a pnblic utilitv. Hon. members opposite may also ac,sert that certain problematical benefit" \vill result. but I see in it the skeleton of sorialisation of industry.

I agree with the statements that haYe been made during this debate that the me­cess or failure of this scheme depends on the abilities and qualifications of the mem­bers of the co1nrnission. It is no good say1ng, "I am going to give the_ president of .the Traclc>s and Labour Counctl a JOb. He Js a good fello\Y while he represents the unions." Nor is it any use saying, of someone else, " He is not a bad chap; he votes for our party." As tJw LE>ader o~ the Opposition pointed out, the Vtctonan GoYernrnent appointed the be-:t possible expert it could get, and paid him a good salary to take charge of the Victorian Electricity Commis­sion as well as freeing him from all political influence. That i:J the only way to ensure the success of this scheme.

Statements have been made tbat the il'lc'ndcd franchise under the Order in Coun­cil. which has a minimum period of ten years and a maximum of fifteen, will make it impo"ible for the City Electric Light Company. Limited, to undertake the scheme of electrification that the GcH·ernment pro­pose. The company, through its chairman, ha.s al'o 'aid so. I should like to know what the Government proposes to do \\'hen a potJition of stalernate is arri,·ed at.

:Mr. PowER: \Yait and see.

~Ir. l\L\XIYELL: This is the place where we should know. I am not going to \I a it and see.

l\Ir. l'oWER: You will have to.

Mr. :\IAXWELL: Shall we? (Laughter.} There has been too much of the ·· wait and ~ee '' }Jolic.v. It is all yery \\ell to :-ay, "\Ye have the power and \Ve can do what wo like," but there will come a day when that power will be taken a"·ay from the Governn1nnt. In this conln1unity right should be might, not might right. Hon. member' opposite can rest assured that right \vill prevail some day. \Ve may have to wait ·<mH\ time, for that day, but I am quite sati,fied that the time is not far distant ''hen t,he nre.a ''·Ure of son1c hon. rncrnbers opposite will be taken. The electors will , .. oon rcali6e that it is their rnoncyJ and not the money of hon. memberc opposite that id being V.ctetod.

Hon. members opposite tell us that the price of clectricitv is going to be lmverod. but \\·ho is going· to be saoriGced to obtain that r ,•ult? The ('ity Electric Light C 1mpany, Limited, is composed of certain persons who have invested some of their savings ill' its undertaking. Then the Government find a way out by appointing some commis,oion.

l\Ir. T.HLOR intorject0d.

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.] Commisswn Bill. 1243

Mr. :\1AXvYELL: I should not like the hon. InPrnber for Enoggcra to haYc manv shares in it because he would murder am;­lcody who tried to depreciate hi, shares. "

Tlw City Electric Light Company. Limited, placed a scheme before the Rova] Commis­sion on Electricity and e;uggested a fran­·chise of forty-two years. The companv have the right bv Order in Council to ca~·ry on for a certam period, and it is nothing less than rcpudiaticn if a body of commissioners is to be given the power to tear up that piece of paper. After all, the Great vVar was caused by tearing up ,a, piece of paper. No one knows what ruin may follow an ~ction of that kind. Not having an:y shares m any company, I am able to speak freely, but that is not true of some of my friends opposite. The company has said. that it would not undertake the whole schemB at once nor could it undertake it at all unless it \Vas given an assurance of suitable security of tenure and the tenure suggested by the company was forty-two years.

A GOVERX~fENT ME~IB2R: \Vhy not make it 100 years?

1\h·. MAXWELL: Some men talk a lot <:Jf balderdash. Rome men arB vBry good at giving advice about the spending of other peoples' money. Hon. members opposite talk about equality and justice and what Bhould be done for the man on the lowBr rung of thB ladder-but theY really do not care about him at a,]]. They talk of the sunshine and happiness that they will bring into the home, of the people, but there has been an rrlipse of the sun since hon. members have occupied the Treasury benches.

Mr. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order ! I ask the hon. member to return to the subject 1.mder discussion.

Mr. MAXWELL: Hon. members opposite have claimed in the past that municipal enterprise could provide elBctricity for the people at a lower cost thacn private enter­prise, and it is interesting to note that Royal Commission on Electricity. after reviewing the schemes submitted ·by the Brisbane City Council and the Citv Electric Light Company, Limited. said that the best scheme and the only scheme was the one submitted by private enterprisB-the City Electric Light Company, Limited.

Hon. members opposite talked much about the benefits that will accrue from the estab­lishment of the Electricity Commission and I hope; there will be benefits. I hope' that it will be a wonderful advantage to the men in the rural areas who work hard and are not able to Bnjoy many of the ameni­tie,, of city life. It is only at election time that hon. members opposite demonstracte any interest in these peopl·e. Then thBy tell them what benefact0rs thev have been to the people in the country, ~!though thB truth is that they have increased the country peoples' burden by raising their freights and reduced the fares for the industrialists in the city.

I hope that when the Bill is being con­sidered in Committee the Premier will accept amendments that may be submitted. particu­lar!~· amendments dealing with the franchise, because it is absolutely essential that some­thing should be done in that regard. If something is not donB no .Qne can visualise what the cost may be. beoausB we do not know whether it will result in a big legal

action that ma~- ]Je carricLl to the High Court of Aw•tralia. For :1lthough members of Parliament: may do vr·hat they wish here it does net follow that they can escape the law. The High Court of Australia can be appealed to. That is one institution under the flag that g-ives us protection.

\Vhen in Committee I trust the Premier will favour us with more information as to th{) personnel of the commission and as to what will be the position if the City Electric Light C' cmpany, Limited, does not agree to the franchise proposed. It must be remembered that the managing director of that company says that it dces not agree with it, and be is protecting the interests of the public who have invested their money in that concern. They should be protected for a certain number of years.

The Brisbane City Council is not included in the Bill.

Mr. PowER: 'rhero is a clause that pro­vides that it can be.

Mr. MAXWELL: The Bill distinotlv states that at the present the Bris):>ane City Council is not brought under its operations.

Mr. PowER: There is a clause that states that it can be.

;\lr. MAXWELL: The Orders in Council of the Brisbane Citv Council are not to be interfered with. The hon. member mav interject as much as he likes, but the Biil dic.tinctly makes that provision. The only persons who are being attacked in this matter are private companies. No doubt hon. meml)ers opposite think them good meat to chew.

\Vhen onB considers the statements as to the smashing of monopolies made by hon. members opposite I wonder how they can accept thB principle of this Bill. The Labour Party is the greatest creator of monopolies in Queensland to-day. Much· is made in this House, at local authority meetings and elsewhere, by members of thB Labour Party as to what thev would do had thev the opportunity, but it is a totally different matter when they have to manage a con­cern. They might be able to do a simple sum in addition, but I will be hanged if they can ·subtract.

Mr. CLA YTO~ (Wide Bay) [4.18 p.m.]: This Bill can be regarded a, the most important measure that the Houoo has dealt with during this session. Remembering the great progress made with electricity over the past few years, one can realise the task that confronts any commission in controlling the supply of the StatB. The report of the royal commi-sion that invBstigated this matter is highly informative and the Bvi­dence it took will be of great value in putting the Bill into effect. The members of the commission not only tra veiled Queensland in search of information, but also visited the Southern States, in which the system that we hopB to put into effect in Queensland already operates. The com­missiOn to be appointed will have the ad vantage of the experience of the Southern system.

In the past a local autlrority in Queens­land was allowed to move in the matter of supplying electric current to its own area. Katurally tha.t has been a very costly pro­ceeding, and I am inclined to think that if we can produce electricity in bulk, as it is

Mr. Clayton.]

1244 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

propo3ed to do under this Bill, we shall be moving in the right direction. \Vhen one consider>' the various towns that have their own electric light scheme,, "uch as ~1urgon, \Vondai ancl Kino-arov one realises that the0• are not very f~r a)1~rt yet thei1· overhead expenses must be tremendous in comparison with what could be clone by a bulk supply.

\Yhen I read the report of the roval com­mission and saw the beneficial resuits likelv to accru~ under the suggcosted system. I "'!'s rcmmcled of the early day~o in the VI oongarra scrub. In the 'nineties we had about_ twenty-fiw_ mills operating in that area m the crushmg of cane and the manu­facture of sugar. Thev had very large overhead expenses to carrv. Some were sending cane juice .as far as Millaquin by rnpe-hne and- others were packing the raw sugar. To-day, thanks to scientific methods and the exercise of foresight, the cane ; s bcmg transported to one centre the costlv ov_erhead expenses borne bv the variotis mills have been saved, and. great advan­tages have resulted. A similar system 1:: proposed under this BilL ·when we can produce electricity in bulk and sene v_arwu~ t'?'vns by high-voltage transmission hnes It IS reasonable to expect that we shall haYc a reduction in the cost of light and power used by the community and al"' that a gre>;ter number of people will benefit. b.v . the WJCler u;, of such an important utiht~·.

At 4.24 p.m., The CHAIR~IAN OF COliDIITTEES (l\'Ir. Hanson,

Humnda) resumed the chair.

Mr. CLAYTON: W c might hRYc advanced eooner in electrification of country area , but. th1s State has been lacking when one makes comparisons with other States of the Com­monwealth. Hon. members on the GO\·ern­mcnt benches have taken the Moore Gov·crn­mcnt to task for the is•me of certain Orders in Council whi:st they \H're in power. When we \Yere in office private concerns offered to supply electricitv to nuious centres in Queens­land and I think u:e were wise in issuin~ the neceosary Ordcr.J in CounciL Manv omall towns have dcriYed considerable benefit from thi,, step. An up-to-date utility has been broug-ht to the homc·s of the people who would not have cnjovcd it had the Moore Government _not been' returned to power. I cite the seaside re,ort of Pialba. A private firm came to our GoYernment and offered to sup~1ly electric light and power to that township. As a result that seaside resort has enjoyed the benefits of electric light and power for the last seven years, and it has been a very different place from \Yhat it was prior to the installation As the shire council \Yas loth to take anv 'steps t~." .uds prondmg a supply for that town, I 1alba would not have made the adYancJ that it has if that Order in Council had not been granted. The same mav be said of various othPr ,c;n1a1J towns a1~d seaside rc:;;ort;:: in the State.

\Ye know that public control of this public n!llnv seems to be fa.-oured throughout the world to-clay, and I am inclined to believe that if _ml"n ·dw have a thorough knowledge ot the mdustry arc appointed to the commis­"'on benefit to the State will result.

It has been_ stat_ed that bulk supply means great reductiOn In cost to the people. I ag-ree. became it is obvious that bulk supply

f Jlr. Clayton.

eliminates the heavy overhead charges that must be borne where the supply is generated bv a number of small plants. As a repre­sentative of a farming constituenc,-. I believe that the operations of this Bill will result in cheapened costs of production to manv of the farmers who now are forced to rely· upon the more Pxpensive power, that of the internal combustion cng·ine. for carry­lng out rnost of their fanning operations. If we can supply cheap clectricit.v in bulk to the farming community we shall lnve clone much good for the State. I intend to support the Bill, but I think that its success \vill depend upon the appointment to the commission of n1en 'vho h'lve a thorough knowledge of electrical matters. men vho are trustworthy, and who will giYc of their ven- best. I am sure that the Dill will be woi:th0• of the support of all hon. member> if such a commission is appointed.

Mr. PLUXKETT (11/bert) [4.29 p.m.]: As this Bill proposes to bring about ihe electri­fication of our rural areas, it is bound to be welcomed by the majority of the people of the State. The Premier went to a r.;rc.ct deal of trouble this mormng to explam to us in detail the manv ramifications of the BilL During the coi!r~ e of his speech he stated that this action of the Government was but a step forward in carrying out Labour's policy. I cannot hdp drawing the attention of the hon. gentleman to the fact that this seems to be an eleYenth-hour repent­ance by the ,Government, because we know that for the last three or four vears the Goycrnment ha.-e refused to grant 'an Order in Council for the supplv of electricity to certain areas. They even objected to trans­ferring a franchise from one company to another.

It seems to me, howm·er. that the Dill will eliminate a grEat deal of \yaste and expense that the consumers have had to bear over the last few years. I say with all clue <kfcrence that the Government will have to ta kc the full rcsponsibilit0· for that extra cost to the consumer,, <~specially in the south­eastern part of the State, but I am glad to know that at long last we haYe a Bill deal­ing with the matter and that the l~O\·ern­ment no\V recognise what has ahvavs been recognised b:; everyone else, that mass pro­duction, \Yhether of electricity or anything elf:~. is es,,ential, m1d its success ha;.; bPeu demonstrated in other countries over the past twentv years. ·when we realise that electric energy is urgently needed undct' present economic circum .. :tances and that it can be made availab:e at a cheap rate by rnas·, production, it must be admitted that the Bill has been introduced at a belated hour. It should haYc been introduced years arro. and the GoYernment arc not justifwrl in taking credit for it now except on the ground that it is bcttN lJte than neYPl'.

I ha vc heard the company referred to as monopolists. Thcv haYe been charg-ed with making a great deal of money and paying big cliYidcncls, but is it not a fact that th0 GoYernment arc not in a po-.ition to provide this very essential service but arc prepared to exploit thcs~ so-called monopoJi,ts by inducing them to use their capital to proYide it?

::VIr. PowER: J\"ot to e\:ploit them, but to control them.

::Yir. P.Ll:NKETT: To exploit them by asking them to take the risk of investing

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.] Commission Bill. 1245

their funds in this undertaking, which the Government are at libertv to assume control of at the end of ten or fifteen vears. It may be sound Government policy t~ take control of some of these public utilities, but we should not overlook the fact that the Govern­ment propose to appoint an all-powerful commi,sion that will have power to fix the price of the commodity_ \Vhere is there any need to control an enterprise when the Government have power to fix the price of its commodity? It has been proved, especi­ally in this State, that private enterprise can conduct a business more economically than a Government, and if the Government retain the power to fix the price of a com­moditY and to control the undertaking in many other respects there is no great reason why the:- should buy it outright. I venture the opinion that unless the Government improve their financial methods and are able to g·et nearer budgetary equilibrium, they will not be able to buy the undertaking, m-en at the end of fifteen years, and that the company will be permitted to continue to operate under the co-ordinated franchise.

I have waited anxiously for this Bill so as to have an opportunity of using cheaper power in primary production, and as one who has taken a keen interest in the matter I welcome the Bill.

The PRE}IIER: \Vhat did vour Government do in the matter? ~

Mr. PLUKKETT: \Ve arc concerned, or at least I am concerned, about the rate that will be charged in rural areas.

The PRE~f!ER : Your Government granted. quite a number of Orders in Council without any regard to co-ordination.

Mr. PLUNKETT: They did not hold up a franchise when it was demonstrated to them that the consumers were going to get cheaper light, but the hon. gentleman's Government did.

The PRE:l1:IER : Your Government made a mess of the whole thing.

::\Ir_ PLU:\'KETT: The current >vill have to be transmitted over a largo area of sparsely populated country where the Yolume of consumption in certain districts will not be Yery groat. This will invoh-e the expen­diture of a considerable amount of monov, perhaps without an adequate return in t}w initial stages. The company will not be able to recoup itself for some years.

This measure sets out that the rate to be charged- to rural consumers is not to be more than 10 per cent. on cit"' prices. I am wondering whether this can" be accomplished, having in view the cost of the purchase of the various electric authorities. If the state­ment is correct-and I believe it is-that the rate to be charged to rural con;;;urncrs i:;c cnc to encourage consumption and is not a pay­able one, then there must be a difference between the actual cost of providing elec­tricity to the city consumer and the rural consumer.

Some provision should be made whereby the Yarious unit; should be interconnected, thus preventing any possible interruptions. That course has been adopted in various parts of the world. For instance, two fran­chises are operated in this city, one by the City Electric Light Company, Limited, and the other by the Brisbane City Council. It may be in the best interests of the corn-

munity to have those two authorities inter­connected. It might cheapen the rate, and it might avoid blackouts. In the same way, if the variou' electric authorities in the country were jnterconnectP-d, economy \Vould result and a good deal of time would be saved.

The people are looking for a supply of electricity at an economical rate. This policy of co-ordination will enable it to be used economically not only for lighting but also in primary production. We have had an illustration this afternoon of what can be accomplished by electricity in a dry period.

It is from that as well as other points of view I have mentioned that I support the Bill, but I trust that as the debate proceeds we shall receive more information concerning its details.

Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) [4.38 p.m.]: As I remarked on the introductory stage of this Bill, goo-d will accrue from the co-ordination of all our electric undertakings. The Pre­mier has made a great mistake in tying the hands of the proposed commission in relation to certain details, particularly in those matters which it will have to negotiate with the City Electric Light Company, Limited. I refer especially to the provision that the franchise to be granted under the Order in Council shall have a minimum of ten years and a maximum of fifteen years. That may or may not be acceptable to the company. It might be a good thing to extend the time to say, twenty-one years. I am not going to suggest that any time should be inserted in the Bill. That should be left an open matter for the commission to determine after it has negotiated with the company, and determined what is fair and just in the public interests.

I also want to refer to the proposal to allow the Brisbane City Council to carry on its undertaking. This undertaking should be absorbed in order to create one electric authoritv for the State. A grPat mistake was ma:de in ever allowing the Brisbane Citv Council to embark on its undertaking. Had it not been embarked upon the people of Brisbane would now be getting electricity at a less rate than they are now paying.

Mr. GLEDso;:.; : They di cl not do so before the municipal undertaking was operating.

:Yir. NIMJ\10: It is not economic to have two facilities operating in ono area. In reply to the hon. mombm for ItJSWieh I mention that. as the Prenl!er 'aid when introducing this Bill, electricity has gone through a process of evolutiou. As time goes on the Fcrvice is improved and the price is lowered. The hon. m0mber for Ipswich is well a ware that the Ips>vich Electric Supply (>''nlpany, Litnib-:-tl, \Vas able to rccluCL' the price because its business had gro\vn to such an extent that its profits enabled that to be done but in the earlv stages of the company's 'life great difficulty >Yas experi­enced in paying a dividend at all.. We. !'ll recognise that the day when public. utility companies could pay 10 per cent. IS past. To-day the public utility company, neverthe­less, is a success.

The PRE\riER : Practically a gilt-edged security.

Mr_ NIMMO: A gilt-edged security, and investors do not expect any more than a reasonable return on their capital, but the persons who started the company took a big

Mr. Nimmo.l

1246 State Electricity [ASSEJVIBL Y.] Commission Bill.

risk and they were entitled to reap the benefit of success.

Mr. TAYLOR: A great risk, at 10 or 12~ per cent. !

Mr. 1\T!\IMO: It was a considerable risk in the early stage' of electricity undertakinw\ because nobody could say whether the demand for electricity would increase. The f.aot remains that the~e companies have succeeded and the cost of electricity has been cheapened. I remember saving when the Electric Light and Power Act Amend­ment Bill was before the House that in my home the cost of electricity was £2 a quarter, and it is lower than that to-day.

Mr. TAYLOR: You must have gone to bed early every night to save the light.

Mr. NIMMO: No; but the price of elec­tricity h.as gone down and the rate b~ing charged is a very reasonable one. I venture to prophesy that if the Government ha·d given the company the opportunity of cater­ing for all requirements in the future and had limited the city council to its proper operations electricity would become much cheaper. "\Ve all know that any municipal or Government undertaking h.as never or very seldom been a success. That is because of bad management and the fact that everv­body associated with it wanted to get some­thing out of it. I venture to sa v that even the Premier recognises that f'ftate enter­prises are not in the interests of the country.

The PREsliER: What happened during the war? Didn't the State have to take con­trol of all industry?

Mr. NIMMO: No. The PREMIER : Of course it did. Mr. ::\'IMMO : Certainly it did not. Take

the wool industry. They formed an associa­tion named "Bawra" to handle it on a co-operative basis.

The PREMIER: A corporation under the Crown.

Mr. ::'\IMMO : But there w.as no State enterprise about it. I feel sure that if the Brisbane City Council had not entered the field of electric light and power supply the people of Brisbane would be getting much cheaper electricity than they are. It must be recognised that the council does not supply electricity as cheaply as the company, and that company contributes a l.arge suni of monev to the Crown for income tax, whereas 'the· council pays nothing. If the Government restricted the activities of the council in this regard and gave the company an extensive franchise we should find that electricity would become as cheap in this State as ·it is in other States in Australia.

The City Electric Light Company, Limited, has been well managed. This i" proved by the fact that the price of its current is cheaper than that of the undertaking of the council. although it has to pav income tax. As to the way in which the Government have treated not only this company but also the municipal undertaking, we find that coal is brought from Ipswich and charged at 2s. 9d. a ton for coal for oversea or bunker pur­poses, whereas the company and the coun­cil must pay 7s. 3d. a ton. This matter must be investigated to determine whether the rato charged is not excessive.

The . Premier referred to the granting of franchtses by the Moore Government. That Government rendered a very great service to Queensland m grantmg those franchises.

[Jh. Nifn/riiO.

For ~-cars people had been clamouring for electricitY in their respective areas, but Labour Governments had consistently refused the privilege. The :Moore Government granted a franchise extending to Esk nnd, I think, aB far as Laidley and Gatton. 'l'he residents in these districts have been very grateful for that, and I am sure that the price charged is not exce'·sive.

As to the granting of franchises by the Labour Party, I refer to that of the Ipswich 1~lcctric Supply Company, Limited, which was is.sued by a Labour Government. This morning the hon. member for Ipswich wailed loudly that neither plant nor g·enerating station had been erected at Ipswich. Neverthe­less. it was a Labour Government that granted the franchise and made it possible for that company to carry on without the el'ection of any generating plant at all at Ipswich. It was always rumoured that plant would be provided, but it never materialised. Apparently there is no clause in the fran­chise that compels the company to do it.

It was the Labour Government, too, that granted the franchises to Southport, Coolan­gatta, and other places. I am not finding fault with this-it was a wise move-but the Government are not playing the game in their criticism of any other Administra­tion for granti:ng franchises when they, themselves, are equally blameworthy-if there is any blame to be apportioned at all. I say there is none.

The hands of the commiSSIOn are to be tied, not only with regard to the length of a franchise, but also as to the tariff for rural areas, which shall be city rates plus 10 per cent. The commission should not be hampered in this way. For example, assum­ing the Yarraman di,trict wanted a supply of electricity but the supply would not be possible at Brisbane prices plus 10 per cent. The commission should have power to investi­gate the proposal, and if the lowest econo­mical price was 20 per cent. on Brisbane prices and the Y arraman residents were willing to pay this rate, the matter should be left to the discretion of the commission. 'fhe hands of the commission should not be tied at all. Of course, everything will depend on the personnel of the commission. If good men are appoint·ed, I should say, "Let the Bill go through without tying their hands in .any way."

Suppose that in the negotiations with the City Electric Light Company, Limited, the company cannot agree to the proposals of the commission. There are many reasons why it should not agree. What is going to happen? Have we to call Parliament together in order to amend the Act to enable a compromise to be made? The com­mi,sion might come to the Premier and say, " These people have put. up a good case and we are of the opinion that they should be given twenty-one years and at least three vears' notice before the Government can take over." Supposing they came along to the Premier with such a case, he might say, " Well, I do not want to hang things up ; I want transmission lines to be built," but he would be powerless to act. He should have to call Parliament together, amend the Act and alter the period.

I contend that if we appointed good men­men whom we could trust-they would make the most reasonable bargain and come to the most equitable arrangement in the interests of the people. I venture to say that

State Electricity [9 NovEMBER.] Commission Bill. 1247

it would have been well to leave the term of the franchise out of the Bill, it would have been a good one. Everything woulrl then have depended on the constitution of the commission. I think the Premier has had a fair amount of experience by now and I only hope he does not appoint "' politicia.n to the commission.

Mr .• JESSON: vVhat about yourself? How would you like the job?

Mr. l\'IMMO : Fancy the hon. member fm Kennedy a, member of the commission!

Mr .• JESSON: I should be fair and that is more than can be said of you.

Mr. NIMJ'\10: It would be dangerous to put a politician on tho commission. What about 1t?

The PREMIER: \Vel!, what about it? Mr. MAHER: The Premier might be a

commissioner himself.

Mr. ::'\IIM:MO: If the Premier \\as a,ppointed we might ha.ve to reconsider the question. Although if he went on the corn­mission I do not know whom the party would get to take his job. The fa.ct remains that it would be dangerous indeed to put a politician on the commission.

The PREMIER: "'e want men on the com­mission who have the capacity, integrity, and strength of character to do the job.

HoKOURABLE MniBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. :::\IMMO : I am pleased to hea.r the Premier say that. If men mea,suring up to the qualifications outlined by the Premier are appointed we have nothing to fear. In "onclusion I say, don't for goodnees sa.ko spoil a good Bill by putting a term in it to tie the hands of the commission. Do not make it impossible for the commission to come to rea.sona blc arra.ngements for tho supply of cheap electricity in Queensland and preYent the people in distant areas from getting a, cheap supply quickly.

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith. Mackrw) [4.54 p.m.], in reply: Little was raised during this debate calling for a categorical reply. I recognise that the Opposition ha.ve been on the horns of a, dilemma. In the first place, they desire to do everything possible to protect their great. god, priYate enterprise. On the one hand they want to have the Bill so shaped that private companies and persons who hold shares in them sha.ll be protected to the full. On the other hand they see the grea.t public-the people who use electricity the consumer of electricity, whether ' for domestic industrial or agricultural pur-poses. It has been difficult for the Opposition to reconcile those two interests.

The hon. member for Albert in particular was in extreme di fficultv. HB referred to the principle contained ;';, this Bill that the price in outside areas shall be- Brisbane prices, plus 10 pDr cent. He feared that that could not be done. He talked about compPnsation to tho,e who alrea,dy held franchises in those areas. It is obvious that if a higher price than is wa,rranted 1s given for resumed Orders in Council, that is gDing to makB the position of the co-ordine,ting cowpany more difficult. EYery­one knows that if a semi-governmental body, or if the City Electric Light Compa.ny, Limited, with no connection with the Govern­ment at all, wants to buy something, then the value of that something increases enor-

mouslv m tho oyr-,; of the persons who hold it.

I said in my speech on the initiation of the Bill, and I repeat it to-da,y, that any authority that is bought out under this 5cheme 'will b~ entitled to a fair deal­and likewise· the public, who finally pa,y for what is taken ever, will be given a fa1r de~tl.

There is ample power lJJHler the Bill for the commission and the company to nego­tiate and deal with these things, but we ar0 not going to allow negotiations to be carried on interminably. We are going to authorise the co-ordinating company to carry its transmis,ion lines through those areas wbi]o negotiations a.re going on, if that is necessary. vVhat is wrong with that? Is that not a fair prop,·sal'l Can we allow the electrification of the whole of the South Coast area to be held up simply because some person may desire to hold the Govern­ment, through their agents, the company, up for ransom~ Obviously not.

Again, hon. members talk about what th<'y refer to as the neglect of the Govern· mcnt, but they do not instance what GoYernment were responsible for the neglect of which they c·Jmplain.

I haYe here the Orders in Council of the City Electric Light Company, Limited, tha.t exist at the present time. Take, for example, the city area, wlwre the period of the Order is forty-two years, having a recurring pur~ chasing period of ten years, the next arriv­ing· in 1939. In two other Ordus, for Gcorgc street east and Ge,rge street west, the orders ha Ye a 'recurring purchasing period of ten years, the next ending in 1945. The r·est of tho city area is coveJ·ed bv an Order with lL recurring purchasing period of ten ye.ars. In South Brisbane, the recurring purchasing period is fiye vears; the rest of J'\ orth Brisbane has recur­~·in g purchasing period of fi.-.o years ; the Order for Fortitude Val10y terminates in 1940; and tran.smission lines, including one to Redcliffe. have rBcurring purchasing periods of five ye:trs.

Rut the company also has the following Orders granted under the Mooro regime:-

Period of

Order.

Recurring 11 ~ ext

Purchasing Purchasing Period. Period.

-------1--- --------

Pine Shire .. Coo m era Shire .. Cleveland Shire Beenleigh Shire Tingalpa Shire .. 'Waterford Shire Transmission

Line, JVIoggill Transmission

Line, Creek Road

Years. 30 30 30 30 30 30 42

42

Years. 10 10 10 10 10 10 10

10

1960 1960 1960 1960 1960 1960 1973

1973

The difficultv that exists is due to the fact that all tho~e Orders in Council, a.nCI par­ticularly the nine shown above of long dura­tion. did not at the time they were issued provide for any co-ordination whatsoever. That is what has caused the dela,y and the difficulty. If some of those lines had been co-ordinated or interconnected one to the other, having a common parent power station, then the whole of the South Coast area could have had cheaper electricity long a,go,

Hon. W. F'organ Smith.]

l24R State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.]

but Orders in Council have boon dotted down all oYer the areas referred to and they have been as ineffectual as dotting down guns in various nortions of the terrain without co-ordinating arms linking thE'm up so as to make them effective. From the point of view of the company, what is the use of the Ordm·s in Council for forty years unless as a bargaining point? It cannot, without the authority of the GoYernment, connect up thP'·e various areas. Obviously, it would be uneconomic to build power stations in each of those centres, and it has no authority to carry transmission lines from one centre to the other. That is the position with nine Order• in Council issued by the Moore Government.

The hon. member for Albert spoke about country prices. Does he think that we ought to make them clearer?

Mr. PL UNKETT : You could make them cheaper.

The PREMIER: The hon. member can tell us whv when we are in Committee. If I can equita.bls· make them cheaper than the prices set out I am prepared to hear argument. No electric authority is in the business for the good of its health. No-one will lend money to a Government for nothing. Conse­quently, whether it is private enterprise or a State authority, capital has to be found and interest paid on it.

It will take a number of years for this large area to be brought under complete productivity in terms of the Bill. It cannot be done in five minutes or merely by pressing a button, but the work can be started, it will be started, and will be proceeded with m the best possible way. Why, it is mere carping criticism to complain of prices in country areas ! There is no possibility what­soever in any circumstances or under any form of control for those areas to be supplied with cheaper electricity unless in accordance with the methods that I have defined of linking up with a parent power station with the load that will enable it to supply those areas economically. If we built power stations in thosE' areas and linked them all up they could net afford to sell power and light cnrnmt at a pric" that would be charged by a co-ordinated, highly efficient, and properly Pstabl ished undertaking. I quoted the McGowan Committee on that point. Its report is the most comprehensive survey of the electrical industry that has ever been made. I had the good fortune to meet Sir Harry McGowan in London and he was good enough to tell me why he came to certain decisions. He came to the decision that electricity was too dear in Great Britain because they had too many power houses, · many of them not working up to their full load. That is something that even I as one who knows nothing about the tech,;_ical sid0 of electricity, can understand. Surely it should be apparent to hon. members opposite.

At 4.55 p.m., Mr. SPEAKER resumed the cha.ir. The PREMIER: The hon. member for

Aubigny complained of the shortness of term that is given under this scheme. He also said that probably we shall look more to economy than to brains in selecting members of the commis,;ion to pe appointed. That is rather a difficult st-atement to analyse. Economy without brains, o-r brains without economy? There are a numoor of types of

[t!on. W. Forgan Smith.

braiu:-;: theY varv as rnuch as 1ncn vary. I pointed out· by i;1tcrjection, the type of men we \vantcci on this c::nn1nission~men of integritv. men of knowledge, men of strength of character, and men of ability who would see the whole scheme through on a sound basis. That is the sort of ])rains we want. The hon. member for Aubigny suggested that we follow those with brains. Can he sniTn·cst that the men who composed the ro~,~l co1nmission \vere lacking in brains? I 'regard the chairman of the commissio_n as bciniT one of the most valued pubhe servants" that we have in any part of Aus­tJ alia

GovER~ii!EK'r MniBERS: Hear hear ! The PREMIER: I refer to Mr. J. R.

Kcmp. He has that unique combination of beinfi a great engineer and also a great B dministrator.

Mr. :vloORE : He cannot do too manv jobs, though.

The PREMIER : If the hon. gentleman aiTnees with that. then he must agree with m"f' that I am following brains.

Mr. MooRE: Oh, yes!

The PREMIER: Mr. Kemp. with his colic agues on the commission. investigated the whole of the evidence tendered to them and then reeommrnded fifteen years as the maximum period and ten y~'U.rs as the mini­mum. I am following brains, as represented by the gentlemen who were on the royal commission. Therefore, no fault can be found with that course~

One might go on talking for a long time on the basis ef value. We have valued the whole of the present undertaking of this company. The terms and conditions may be dealt with in Committee. It would not be proper to do so at this stage. Havil!g ascertained the value, then we asccrtam the price that can be charged QY it in the cit" and in the country. That value stands.

It is essential that we lav down the basis of valuation. The royal commission, com­prising eminent and capable men, after full and mature consideration of all the evidence before t(wm, ].aid down certain principles and these we are following. What is wrong with that? Can anyone take exception to that course? There may be differences of opinion. In a sale there are ~!ways the interest of the vendor and the mterest of the purchaser-and, ultimate_Jy, we shall l?e the purchaser. I am not gomg to ":rgue m a direction that might be used agamst the commission when they will be called upon to bargain.

Mr. Krm,ro: You are tying their hands a bit, though.

The PREMIER: That is not so. We are giving them guidance; we are not handi­capping them at all. If we did what the hon. member suggests we should be doing something contrary to the findings of the royal commission. I much prefer to take their opinion than that of the man who has not given the time or consideration to the problem that the members of the royal commission gave.

I am satisfied that the Bill itself is economically and financially sound ; I am ;.atisfied it is in the public interest, and I am further satisfied that the company-a;; agent of the Government-will be able to

State Electricity [9 NovE~lBER.] Commission Bill. 1249

carry out its undertaking in this regard with bene'fit to the country and without loss to the persons it represents. GO\'ER~MEN1' ME:vrBERS: Hear, hear ! Qnestion-" That the Bill be now read a

second time" (Mr. Sm,,th'., motion)-put an<! passed.

Consideration of the Bill in Committee made an Order of the Day for to·morrow.

Mr. SPEAKER: Before proceeding to the next Order of the Day, I wish to mention that I haYe had an opportunity of reading­the afternoon paper wherein there is a report of " A Sensation in Pa.rliament " and the statement that the Speaker aJlegedly rebuked the Premier. I wish to state that this morning I gave no ruling but offered some advice to the House on the matter o~ the reading of speeches. The Premier did read the major portion of his speech. :With tha~ ~ can find no fault, except that It IS prohibited by Standing Order No 333 which reads- · '

" In all case' not specially provided for by these Standing Rules and Orders. or by Sessional or other Orders, resort shall be had to the Rules, Forms and l7sages of the Commons House o'f the Jmperial Parliament of Great Britain and Ireland for the time being, which shall be followed and observed so far as the same can apply to the proceedings of the House."

Our standard authority regarding the House of Commons procedure is Sir Erskine May's " Parliamentary Practice," which states on page 303 that no provision is made for the reading of speeches in the House.

The PREMIER: What date is that?

Mr. SPEAKER :"" The latest edition of " JY1a.y."

The PRE;vnER: \Yhat date; what year?

Mr. SPEAKER: It is the Thirteenth Edi. tion. 1924. The " Manual of Procedure in the Public Business" of the House of Com­mon", published in 1934, on page 158, provides that a member may not read hi:, speech, but may refresh his memory by making rPfcrence to notes. Arising out of the matter I raised, this point occurs : I did not find fault with the reading of the speech by the Premier. I believe it is neces­sary .that some speeches be rPad, particularly on Bills of technical importance and whereas i~ this case,,. they form the basis of negotia~ twn. I beheve that, so that the Premier is no doubt in agreement with me there. But as the Premier gave notice of an intell· tion of moving a motion to dissent from my ruli?g, I would point out that would hardly achieve the purpose that he desires and I desire and that I think most other members of this House also desire that is that where the occasion arises ~and the 'necessity ·;-; there, speeches may be read in order that hon. members who are reading them may be able to better acquaint the House with the technical nature of the proposals with which they are dealing. It is obvious that busy men such as the Premier Minister• and the Leader of the Oppositio,;, cannot b~ expected to aarry a large number of figures round in their heads to be used at a. moment's notice; but the point is that while it is desirable that some speeches be read, as I said, there is no warrant for it. To disagree with the sugges.

1937-2 R

tion that I made to the House that the sanction of the House be obtained befort' any speeches were read would merely mean that every hon. member would be permitted to read a speech if he so desired. That, T think, would be against the very spirit of rule,; of deliberate debate. Rvery Parlia­ment is a:csPmbled in order that member,; may give their deliberate opinions and there: would be nothing to prevent an hon. mem· her reading from something that had been supp.licd to him by a pcrwn outside, thu" :nakmg his speech by proxy. I do not mfer that the Premier did that, because I believe he carefull,v arranged the speech and delivered it so that he would not be in any difficulty with the people with whon, he would be negotiating afterwards. The point is this: if it is desired that certaw speeches shall be read, I believe that that could be accomplished best by moving an amendment of the Standing Order to provide that where the House so rule, it may grant permission to any hon. member to read hi' speech.

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) [5.16 p.m.]: Mr. Speaker, I am glad you have made that explanation of your decision, but I still disagree with vou on your interpretation of the Standing Orders. It is quite true vou did not deliver a deliberative ruling." You were not asked to give a ruling, but if other parliamentary authorities are looked into with regard to the reading of speeches, you will find there that the Speaker shall-if asked to do so­rule in a certain direction. Taking our own Standing Or,der, I point out that it reads as follows :-

" In all cases not specially provided for by these Standing Rules and Orders, or by Sessional or other Orders, resort shall be had to the Rules, Forms, and Usages of the Commons House of the Imperial Parliament of Great Britain and Ireland for the time being, which shall be followed and observed so far as the same can apply to the proceedings of the House."

'I'he point I desire to draw attention to more particularly is the question: \Vhat do " rul"'• forms, and usages " mean? Obviously, they are matters that have crept in as rules of practice and hav,e been accepted as being of value to the proceedings of Parliament. It is similar to the common law, which is the result of a series of rulings and practices over a long period of time. Therefore, the usages of Parliament are those things ihat Parliament has found us,eful over a period of time. It is, therefore, no part of the Speaker's duty to trv to prevent the House from doing what the House wants to do. And I make this point : That no member of the House objected to my method of delivering my speech this morning.

JIIIr. Speaker, you quoted from " J1.:1ay" dated 1924. The practice of the House of Commons has materially altered since then, and a new edition of " ·May " is required to deal with the forms and usages of the House of Commons of the present day. Definitely do I say that it is a common rule of practice for responsible Ministers to read their speeches in the House of Commons. Does anyone in this Chamber imagine that :E;arl Baldwin, other Ministers, and respon­sible members, did not read their speeches when dealing with the Bill covering the abdication of the King?

Hon. W. Forgan Smith.]

1250 State Electricity Commission Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Drought Relief, Etc., Bill.

Let me take probably a, more important matter. I have seen and heard Mr. Anthony Eden deliver at least three speeches, all having an important bearing on the foreign policy of Great Brita,in. Do you think for one moment tha,t Mr. Anthonv Eden does not write his speeches beforehand? As a. matter of fact a copy of any important pronouncement that the For<:>ign Secretary makes in the Hou'e of Commons is in the hands of the various Embassies before the speech is delivered.

Mr. SPEAKER: That i;;, a statement?

The PREMIER : I am not referring to statements. I am referring to speeches he delivers on foreign policv, and they are generally made in reply to some motion by some member or come party. I have heard both the present Prime Minister of England and Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs rea·d speeches-important speeches. \Vhy do thev read them? Simplv because every word tittered has to have it; due weight.

Surelv no one in this House will suggest that I, could not make a. speech withcmt notes. :My reason for making a full speech this morning was to enable the company mostlv concerned, other comnani0e, and the generid public to know exactly what the Bill meant. Is it not reasonable to assume that the commission appointed will confer with representatives of the companies • My second reading speech on this Bill will be regardf'd as the primer on the Bill itself. I cannot afford to have a sentence misplaced or a word wrongly usc·d. That is the only reason why I used copious notes this morning, and to a large extent read m:, speech.

What is wrong with reading a speech, anvhow' Of course, that is beside the point wE) are discussing at the moment. I say that in usage in the Home of Commons to·day Ministers making important speeches im·ari­ablv write them out beforehand. Mr. Wi~ston Churchill, an ex-Minister. i· .. reputed to have written his f-pccches at ·!Past three times.

·Mr. MOORE: He memorises them.

The PREMIER : Y cs ; he n:cmorises them. There was a memorable occaswn when he forgot the righ~ word. he :"'anted to u~e and could not contmue wrth hrs speech. No one in this Chamber, or anyw~ere else, for that mattN. believes that the Prrme Mm~s~er, or the Secretarv of State for Foreign AffaHs, purticularly, makes a, spee~h without notes. As a matter of fa.ct, as I sard before. ~ know that copies of these speeches a.re m the hands of the Embassies to be cabled to the various countriBs in the world before they are delivered. No one would take the Tisk of making an important pronouncement on British foreign policy in a,ny other way.

Mv arg-ument is that Standing Order Xo. 333 "provides not for a, Tuling set out in '' l\Ia •.· " but for' a usage and practice that has grown up. It is a. good one. t?o. Ministers making speeches on Important Bills should have the opportunitv of r<>ading them if thev so desire. A Minister is in a different position to anyone who follows him. Any­bodv who follow"' a Minister who has initiated a second re&ding debate has had the a.dvantagB of hearing what the Minister in ·charge of the Bill has said. A Minister must speak more fully than the average speaker in a debate, and consequently, if he so desires-a,nd this is my opinion-he

[Hon. W. Forgan Smith.

may read his speech for the information of the House.

I went further in the matter, and provided a synopsis of the Bill-a proceeding- not necessary according to the forms of the House. I accompanied the Bill with a map for the infDTmation Jnd guidance of hon. members. I did the same last vear in con­nection with the Income Tax Assessment Bill. 'I'aking "ll your accountants in Brisbane in, who could introduce a consolidating Income Tax Assessment Bill unless he ha,d very full and copious notes amounting to a written speech • Nobody. The thing is too involved and too difficult.

Mr. MooRE: Mr. Magee could quite easily.

The PREMIER: He is super-human. The point I make is that in practice and in usage, both in the House of Commons and in this House, speeches on Bills of a far­reaching and important character should be read. if the Minister so wishes. It is no benefit to me to read them. I hate reading them. I am always much more at my ease when I am speaking from a few notes only, but tho importance of the occasion demanded "' certain course, and I was only following the usages and forms, both of this House and the House of Commons.

After all is said and done, there are many things, both in Standing Orders and in law, where the letter killeth and the spirit gi \"eth life. Any law that is made for the protec­tion of the people can be made an instru­ment of tyranny, so ran the Standing Orders, but in the last analysis the guardian of the Standing- Orders and procedure in this House is not the Speaker, it is the hon. members assembled in the House.

I claim finallv that there is not a breach of the Standin"g Ord<>rs in the method I adopted in delivering mv speech this morn· ing, and I am sorry the ffiatter was rai~ed.

Mr. SPEAKER : So am I, but I as,ure tlw Premier that if I had to deliYer a ruling I cannot sec how I conld do any differently from w·hat I did this morning.

The PREMIER: You were not asked to. Mr. SPEAKER: I hgpe I ha Ye not to.

DROL"GHT RELIEF TO DAIRY FAR:.VIERS V_\.LIDATION BILL.

SECOND READIXG.

The SECRET~\RY FOR AGRICL"LTL"RE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock. Barcoo) L5.28 p.m.]:I move-

" That tho Bill be now read a second tixne."

This Bill relates to the validation of dairy­ing agTecments between myself, on behalf of the GoY0rnn1ent, and certain dairying

· organisations in the State. As I indicated in my speech on the initiation of the Bill, some very graye doubt has arisen as to the capacity of the dairy co1npanies to enter into those agreements. Under the t<"'ms <;>f this Bill it is proposed to Yalidate thell' action. and the Bill sets out that the pmYers that thev assumed thev had are pmYcrs that were possessed by them at the time they entered into the agreements.

The salient points of the scheme were that the Government would reimbur'e the dairy associations for moneys expended in the purchase of fodder and/or water on b0half

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NovEMBER.] Validation Bill. 1251

•of their suppliers, provided the association "Concerned entered into an agreement with the department in the terms contained in the main indenture, which is set out in Schedule 1 to the Bill. A further provision is that moneys paid to dairy associations by the Government were to be recovered by the associations in due course from the suppliers to whom they were debited as loans, and repaid to the Government.

A further provision is that the Gonml­ment agreed to waive interest cbarges on monevs a,dvanced under the scheme for the first period of twelve months from the date of each advance. Any part of an advance that had not been repaid in tweh-e months would bear interest at the rate for the time being charged by the Treasury of Queens­land to local authorities.

The indenture provided that the dairy association should obtain from each of its supplier borrowers an assignment of moneys payable by the association to the supplier for cream and/or pigs, together with an undertaking that he would continue to supply the whole of his cream and/m· pigs to the association concerned until his indebt­edness under the scheme had been liquidated.

The associations or factories agreed to use their best endeavours to collect from time to time moneys lent under the scheme, with any interest that might be payable tll'ereon, and repay them to the Government. The factory was not permitted to charge a sup­plier any sum other than the cost to the factory for fodder and water purchased, plus any interest_ that might be payable.

On the 11th December. 1936, the associa­tions or factories that had come into the scheme were required to sign a further inden­ture which provided that the factory would from that date require the supplier to furnish a dBclaration under the Oaths Act of 1867 to the effect that his financial position was such that he was unable to get fodder and/or water for his stock other than through the relief scheme.

Purchases under the scheme were termin­ated in January, 1937. Altogether, relief under the scheme, in the form of fodder and/ or water supplied, was distributed through the3e organisations to 6,641 dairy farmers. the total amount advanced by the Gov0rnment to dairy factories for the pur­pose being £127,831 19s. lld. Of this amount, £19,809 2s. has been repaid, leaving £108,022 17s. lld. outstanding with factories. In addition, forty-six farmers were assisted by the Agricultural Bank to th:il extent of £1,287 2s. 1d., of which £204 3s. 2d. has been repaid. The total amount of all advances outstanding at the 31st October, 1937, is, therefore, £109,105 16s. 10d.

As I have already indicated, the Bill takes nothing away from or adds anything to the original agreement. It seeks to validate the agreement, which ¥;as entered into without the requisite power to do so. It is true that there is some clarification in respect of audits, but those clauses merely define the powers of the Minister for the time being in respect of audit of the affairs of the company.

I think that the dairy associations welcome the measure because it places them on the legal footing that they should enjoy and makes their position infinitely more secure in respeGt of any action that they may have taken or may contemplate taking in the future.

:Mr. MAHER (West Jioreton) [5.33 p.m.]: I move the following amendment:­

" Omit the word-' now'

and add the words-' on Thursday next.'"

The motion will then read, " That the Bill be read a second time on Thursday next." I haYe moved the amendment because I think it imperative that the Minister should get in touch with the factories concerned in an endeavour to obtain a variation of the agreements the Bill validates so as to give greater consideration to tho farmers who were forced to obtain drought-relief credits. I have proposed an extension of time until Thursday next only, because it is possible that the session may end on that day. If I moved for a longer delay it might give the impression to many persons that I was oppos0d to the Bill altogether.

The following modifications of the agree­ment are, in my opinion, both desirable and justifiable:-

1. The loans should be free of interest. The Government, could, if they so desired. take the interest out of the Unemplovment Relief Fund in accord­ance with the practice that they have adopted in the case of other loans and loan expenditure.

2. Alternatively, the period of free­dom from interest should be extended for at least a further twelve months.

3. Where a supplier's income is still low the factory should be freed from any obligation to make a deduction. A mini­mum income should be allowed free from any deduction-say, £12 a month.

4. Interest, if insisted upon, should be on, say, the quarterly balance owing instead of the daily balance.

Those are the four poin-ts I fLsk the Minister to take into consideration in referring the agreement back to the factories between nO\\ and Thursday next, with the object of obtaining these justifiable and desira.ble modifications.

The dairy farmers have been through a.n <Jxtraordinarily difficult time. As the Minister is 'aware, there has been a period of two years of drought. Many farmers have lost all their herds, and others have suffered partial losses of them. They have had to incur credit liabilities with their storekeepers, and some, whose positions could stand it, were compelled to approach the banks for overdrafts. They are Bntitled to ;ome consideration. It is only right that the dairy farmer who found himself in circumstances so destitute that he had to make application for drought fodder relief should get a continuance of the interest-free condition,, until he is able to mak0 repay­ments. Good rains have fallen recently, and these have improved the outlook consider­ably, but unfortunately, rain does not restock, nor does it bring sovereigns in its train. Therefore, it will take the farmers a long time to make up the leeway occasioned hy the drought, together with their losses of herds. Their cows did not calve and a great deal of leeway has to be made up.

If the Government are considerate of tho dairy farmers they will surely refer these modifications back to the dairy factories in an endeavour to have the agreement modified

Mr. Maher.]

1252 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Validation Bill.

to provide for interest-free loans until final payments can be made by farmers who had to seek help, or as an alternative make the advance,, at least interest-free for twelve months from now.

Tt will be noted that my amendment pro­viclcs that factories shall be free from any obligation to make reductions where suppliers receive below a minimum income. If a dairyman is making only £12 a month, or £3 a week for the maintenance of his farm and family, he is not in a position to make any payments to the factory with the object of liquidating his loan. Parliament has already made provision that wages not in excees of the basic wago cannot be garnish<'ed. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If a man who reeeives less than the basic wage ought not to have his wage garnisheed, surely a dairy farmer who has been the victim of two Y<'ars' drought, and has consistenth suffered losses, is entitled to be freed from .l'ny deduc­tion by the factory from his dairying proceed,,? He should be freed of any likeli­hood of their being interfered with bv the factory until his income is in excess of £12 a month. Those are reasonable requests.

Mr. MOO RE (A 11bigny) f5.40 p.m.]: I second the amendment moved bv the Leader of the Opposition. I recognise tlie purpose of the Bill, but it goes a little further than the Minister would have us belieYe becauoe there are clauses in it designed to' get back at any factorv that has done what the Minis­tet· may think unfair-made a profit out of a particular ton or bag of chaff that has been wld. The idea is· that a refund should b·e made. I will deal with that phase of the matter later.

ThC' Leader of the Opposition stated the ose for the dairyman quite clearly. It is all very fine to say the dairy companies entered into an agreement with the Serrctarv for Agriculture and Stock. It mu~t be remembered thcv entered into it at a period cf vreat stress. when there were manv diffi­culties to be faced and theY were ali more or less under duress-the,; either had to accept the terms placed ·before them or do without the help they so badlv needed. The factories were made the agcri.ts of the Government. \Vhen the Government are trading directly with electors or constituents -with individua ls·-thev have to b(• more or less lenient with the debtor in unfortunate cirrumstancce. Here they ha ye placed the onus of the collection of the monev that they lent under the agreement-under- an agree­ment that I say was entered into under duress-on the directors of the factories. As the Leader of the Opposition pointed out. there were many persons-hundreds of them -who were absolutclv without credit and without, I might •ay, assets. They were wrthout mortgagable assets and in order to sase eocne of their stock 'thev applied for relief. -

You have only to look at pages 134-135 of the Auditor-General'B Report to sec that other sections of the community-departments and enterprises-have been lavi,hly helped by grants out of the L'nemployment Relief Fund. \Vhy is the farmer, who is in the unfortunate position of being unable to buy fodder-and often unable to buv food for himself and family-placed in im entirely different clas' to the artisan or anv other person who finds himself out of work? The Government have been so generous with that

[ 21h. JJ1 a her.

relief fund, to which contributions were made· by these farmers when they had any income, that they gave £10,000 last year to the beautification of the city of Brisbane, found £40,000 for interest on the Story Bridge, and £30,000 for the losses or supposed lo>ses that have been made on a&"istance to indus­tries. That being w, why should it be such a terrible thing to ask that the interest on money that had to be spent to relieve rural hardship should be taken from that same Unemployment Relief Fund?

The Government have taken the interest on subsidies to local authorities, which werfr given without anv suggestion that interest was to be thus taken. It was a subsidy given by the Government, but the Govern­ment are taking the interest on the subsidy out of the Unemployment Relief Fund, and are continuing to take it. V\'hy should the farmers be placed in a position different to all the others? Why are they placed in a different position to the local authority or the unemployed relief worker 1 \Vhy should thPy not get the same consideration?

One hon. member the other dav said. "I suppose the output of the dai1:y farmers will be up to its peak in three months." lie h«rl no knmY!edge of the position. They cannot reach peak production for a con­siderable time. For one thing, there has been a great loss of dairy cows. As the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out, many of the cows have not given calf owing to the dry weather, and also because of that other scourge, the three days' sickness. Instead of production being up to peak quickly, it will be considerably below normal for a long time to come.

'I'he dairv factories have been told to be lenient. That is not an authoritat,ive state­ment, but one that appeared in the Press. The department is all the time !Orcssing the dairy factories to collect the monev. Why should not the dairv factorice ha.ve the same opportunity of showing leniency to their suppliers as the Government bave shown to all classes depcnclent upon them '' ho are obtaining help from the L'nemployment Relief Fund?

A Bill was put throuerll this House recently providing that the ordinary workman who got l0" than the basic wage should not have his wa.ges i!arnishecd, but the dairy farmer is in a different position-probably in an infinitelv worse position. :Yhny of the \Vorkers in receipt of \\'ages mortgage their future by buying all sorts of luxuries in the \·:ay of wireless sets and that sort of thjng which a farmer who is down and out and requir·e~ fodder for his cow~ woulcl not think of buying. The man who buys articles for his own pleasure cannot have his wages garnishecd for the debt at all, whereas there io no limit to the amount that can be with­ch·awn from the earnings of the farmer v;ho has had to have recour"e to the Govern­ment, through the factories, for fodder in an endeavour to save some of hi~ stock. The dairy factory is to be given every opportunity to get the nece5~ary repayment.

The suggestion put forward by the Leader of the Opposition is quite reasonable and fair. The loan shoul-d be free of intE'rest an.d, if ll8cessary, interest should be taken from the L'nemployment Relief Tax Fund which, after all, is a fund for the purpose o£ providing relief. Those who are in an unfortunate position through no fault of their own but owing to climatic conditions,

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NovEMBER.] Valiootion Bill. 1253

stress of depression, or other factors, should get help until they are ab!€ to get on their feet again. As an alternative, the period for which no interest is payable should be extended for at least another twelve months.

Hon. members should endeavour to put themselves in the unfortunate and heart­breaking position that many of the farmers found themselves in. Owing to the long drought stores of fodder were all gone. The farmers ha·d to accept th£ schem€. There was no chance to bargain. '!'hey were in extremis. Th€ terms laid down for them had to be accepted or their cattle had to do without.

I cannot under .. tand the reason for calcu­lating interest on the daily balanc£s. 'rhis may be understandable in the case of banks \vith continuous transactions on current accounts. For dairy farmers there seems to be no advantage in it. It means much book-keeping and clerical work of little or no value. If interest was calculated on the quarterly balance it would be much simpler for all.

\V e ask. also, that no deduction shall be made when the total income of the dairy farmer is less than £12 a month. If he gets over £12 a month he is in the same position as an~- person in another walk of life.

I should like now to refer to the clause that is designed to deal with the Downs Co-operative Dairy Company, which made purchases in larg-e quantities. I want the Minister to look at the matter from the viewpoint that thesP companies did what they believed to be the hest for their suppliers. I remember that when the sug­gestion of fodder relief was made in the l1rst place the Minister said that he had the opportunity of getting a couple of thousand pounds worth of fodder from New South IV alPs. This fodder could have been landed at Wallangarra at £4 or £5 a ton. The Minister had the opportunity of picking up a wholesale order.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIOULTcRE AND SrocK: I think it was about £6 a ton.

Mr. MOORE: Whatever it was, instead of the Government's procuring the fodder in that way, each dairy companv was left to its own resources to get whate~·er fodder it could. Each dairy company had to get the fodder it required for distribution to its suppliers. V\''hat would one expect to happen when all dairy companies came onto tlw market for fodder at the same time·: Prices went up, and the opportunity of getting fodder from New South Wales at the prices stated could not be availed of. Pro­duce merchants did not buy in large quanti ties because they did not know what would happen from clay to dav. Ever.vthiwr wao done in a rush, and price' soared. \Vas it not wise for a company like the Downs company to make a purcha.,e of 5CO or 60fJ tons in order that the suppliers to that factory would get the advantage of obtain­ing their requirements at a reasonable rate? It had to take the risk that rain would fall at any time. in which event the stock of fodder would be loft on hand and would be much reduced in value.

THE SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK And the same argument would apply to large purchases of molasses.

Mr. MOORE: I think that the company was justified in doing what it did. If a loss was made on the transaction, the dairy

company should not be compelled to bear that ]o,,,_

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC<CLTURE AND STOCK : Where do you find that? What makes you •ugg0st that the losses are to be borne by the dairy companies?

Mr. MOORE: Any charge made for a sing-le bag of <;l,aff over the cost price has to be returned. One has to take the whole· of the transactions into consideration.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRTOTlLTL:RE AND STOCK : I am quite willing to do that.

::Vlr. MOORE: The Bill does not say that. I cannot read the clause at this stage, but there is a clause which says that if any· profit has been made by a dairy company, that sum has to be refunded.

The SECRETARY FOR ~\GRICL:LTURE AND STOCK : Supposing a profit was made over the whole· of the transactwns, what then?

:Wr. MOORE: A different position would' arise. The Minister does not say that in the Bill.

THE SECRETARY FOR AGRICL:LTURE AND STOCK : 1f a profit is made on the whole of the· transactions, it is obvious that a profit must have been made on individual transaction>.

;y1r. MOORE : The Minister does not speak about tran.sactions as a whole-the Bill' refers to individual transactions. If he is prepared to extend the Bill to the transactions as a whole. and return any profit. pro rata to the purchasers, I have no· objection.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICL'LT1'RE AND STOCK: That would not be fair, and I shall show you why it .,~ould not be fair when I reply~

::\Ir. MOORE: It would be fair. because the whole of the transactions have to be taken. unless the burden is going to be placed on the whole of the shareholders of thfl company. After all, this is a co~opera­tive concern. Some of the ,;uppliers need help and some do not. The Government prO\·ide· help for those who are in need of it and they lay down certrrin conditions for tloooe whom thev have helped, but the credit of the , ompany has to be used. I say that those who did not get any help from the Go\ ernment should not be charged for the loans that are made to others.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTCRE AXD STOCK: I assure you there is no intention to do that.

Mr. :'vfOORE: The wording of the Bill indicates that. If the Minister amends it so that it refers to the whole of the b-ans­actions over the whole period I shall he satisfied, but the Bill does not say so.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUE AXD STOCK: Thdt carinot be done.

Mr. MOORE: The Minister asked, " \Yhat if it applies to tho whole of the trans­actions? " I said that that would be a:l right, and no\\ the hon. gentleman says it cannot be done.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUE AND STOCK: I said, " If the company showed a profit for the whole of those transactions, what then:? ''

Mr. MOO RE: That is a different position entirelv. The Bill does not d€al with that. The B,ill deals with individual transactions. It might be one bag or ten bags of chaff.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC1'LTUE AXD STOCK:. You know different.

Mr. Moore.]

12ii4 Drought Relief, Etr., [ASSE::\-IBLY.] Validation Bill.

::Yir. ::\IOORE: I know what I can read. and I know what the Bill says. I know. of course, what the Minister is dri,·ing at. hut I am trying to point out the injustice that may arise under the Bill as it is drafted. The )finistcr wants to take the transactions over a certain period only, instead of waiting ~mtil the transactions arc completed or fmah,ed. One" they have boon finalised the Minister would then have something to work ~m, but it is quite wrong to take only one mstancc. or half a dozen, instead of taking the whole of thorn over the whole period.

As thP Leader of the Opposition has pointed •Out, the Government ought to he a little more generous, especially when one considers all the reasons that eompolled these persons to obtain fodder from the Government. It seems to me to be harsh, and the Govern­ment woulrl not dream of taking this action If. they were dealing direct with the sup­phers. If they were, the Government would he in the position of landlords who would consider individual cases on their merits, Just a" they did in connection with loans by the Agricultural Bank, and aid to other rural_ workers whom they have helped. In this. mstance, because it is a question of ·dealmg throug~ the dairy companies, and the onus of semng that the loans are repaid IS placed upon those companies the Gm·ern­·ment are adopting an enti;elv different attitude. I think that it would be much fair_er if they gave these men a better oppor­tumty of recovermg before harassing them for the repayment of money they have borrowed.

I think that the Minister would be well advised to accept the amendment.

Mr. DEACON (Cunning ham) f7 p.m.l: The Ministet· should immediately agree to this reasonable amendment, because after all a 'farmer who applied for this fodder wa~ a man in distress, according to the declaration ·that he had _to make. He was unable to get ·the fodder m any other way and he could not borrow money. He was compelled to accer:t the help proffered by the Government. Despite the fact that those are the only ·terms under which he obtained the fodder, the Gcvernment charged him interest. Thev would not charge a relief worker interest on ·an amount given to him to sustain him while he was out of work. Would we not call a man a Shylock if he said to a distressed man " I w:ill g_ive you this relief because yoti are m dlStress, but I will charge vou interest?" The Government should not· -do those things.

All the farmers were not in a position of <listress. Some of them who could control credit or could borrow were debarred from getting this relief. The distressed man had to make a declaration to the effect that he had no financial means to enable him to buy the fodder, but the Government are charging him interest on the money.

It is not a paying proposal to do that. Everything depends on production from the soil, and it is good business to have all the land in full production as quickly as possible. Everybody profits by that, but nobody profits i~ the _man on the land cannot get any reward for his efforts, and how can he if his cows

·die? I am sure that the Minister is sympathetic­

ally disposed towards our idea. We are asking him to delay the Bill for just two

-days so that he may make inquiries into

[Mr. Moore.

the financial position of these farmers and he could do that by getting in touch' "ith the factories at once. If the Minister had the information he would have given it to us as soon as the amendment was moved and seconded.

THE SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : If I had what information?

Mr. DEACON: All we ask now is that he should try to get the information, and delay this second reading for a couple of davs.

i'HE SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: But. get what information 'I

Mr. DEACO:\': As to what position the farmers who got this relief are in. If the Minister has made inquiries and has that information now, he can give it to us. It is only a short time ago that the dairyman got assistance to buy fodder under the condi­tions I have described. Thev had to sign a declaration that they were in distress, that they were without any means of buying fodder. and that thcv would lose their stock if they did not get the advances to buy feed. No time has elapsed in which they could have recovered. Some of them have lost part of their herd, as it was not possible to c<u.ve them.

It is better for the State and everybody else that they should bo given a chance of recovering. If that was done, other personc; would give them credit and they would have a chance of recovel'ing. Some time elapse9 after the break of a drought before the dairy stock get in full milk again. The suppl;.' of cream on the Darling Downs is not increasing very fast and the supplies are nothing like normal yet. That is not possible, as in some instances, part of the herds are dead. As the hon. member for Aubigny pointed out, the dairy cows do not get in calf as readily and as quickly in a dry time as they generally do. Dairymen suffer from loss of time and money in every way.

\Ve are only asking that these persons, who ,are in great distress an<l had to sign this declaration before they got the fodder, should receive further consideration, and that this consideration should be granted only after the Minister has made inquiries a,s to whether they are in a position to pay interest on the loans. Everyone else in the State, including the working man, is treated differently.

lVlr. PowER : They are not.

Mr. DEACON: They are. Mr. PoWER: The owner of a worker's

dwelling must pay intere9t whether he is in employment or not.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order ! :"vir. DEACOC\1: The Government give him

work on full wages, whereas they only give the dairvman an advance to enable him to save his· stock.

:Mr. CoLLINS: Without interest for tweh·e months.

Mr. DEACON: How can he repay that money in twelve months, even without interest ? Give him a chance. It is good business to do so, and is the best possible thing for the State.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : You did not do much for him when you were m power.

Mr. DEACON: We did not have a drought. \Ve should have done so had the

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NovEMBER.] Validation Bill. 1255

occasion arisen. The Minister forgets there has been a semi-drought in the south-ea,stcrn areas for three years. Last year was the worst period. During th'!se three . years, dairymen had no opportumty of laymg up fresh supplies of fodder, except in one or two insta,nces. Some districts were drier than others. There were little storms in some places that were lucky and this pro­duced a small supply of fodder. For threfl vears the stock had to be fed on fodder that had been stored. I wish hon. member~ opposite had gone through the oxperienco that the farmers ha,ve had to go through, been dependent on stock for a living anrl for three vears not been able to ma,ke thP hasic wag-e from the production of that etock. Th0 income tax returns of tht farnwt' show that the aYerage income OVPr

a period of three years did not equal t~e basic wage. and out of that a,mount thou ftock had to be fed.

Mr. PowER: There are many workers who are not <'arnjng the basic wage, too.

Mr. DEACOl\1: There is much more wot·k in wol'l<ing a farm. The ordinary working rnan who does eight hours' work does not know what work is, compared with the farmer. There is not a farmer who does not work ha,rdcr on any day of the year than any other cla,<~ of worker. 2\lo labourer doe'" Ruch hard work nor 'vorks f Jr such long hours.

Mr. COLLIXS interjected.

:Y1r. DEACO::'i': The hon. member ought to know something about the matter. Although he comes from a favoureJ part of the State \vhere drought 1s unknown he has sPen the conditions under which farmen have to work in the drier parts of the State in the time of drought. The hon. member ought to know that this is the first time in t.he history of Queensland that the farmers have experienced a three-yea,r drought; previously a one-year drought was the longest experienced. As a matter of good bu;;iness, it would pay the State much better to enable these men to get their farms going at the peak of their production as early as possible than to harass them. It 1s not a matter of mercy; it would pay the State to. do it. It would be in the best intereets of the State to help the farmers in this way.

l\1r. BRAND (Isis) [7.13 p.m.]: It is regrettable that owing to the Yicissitudes of the weather the conditions of certain sections of the community were such that it was essential for the GoYernment t•c give relief. It is very har.d for the worker who linJs himself unemployed and it is even harder for the primary produce1· who, owing to adverse• weather conditions, has to seek relief from the Government tc, prm·ide foddeJ- for his stock as well as food for his family and himself.

Twelve months ago the dairy farmers of t,his State had to seek aid to enable them to succour their stock so that when the weather broke they would ha,ve herds with which to begin production aga,in. It wa,.s the duty of the Government, as the cus­todian of the people's money, to give that section of the community all the help it was possible to giYe them.

The principle of GnYernment assistance for this section of the people is not new to Queensland. J n the past, m times of

drought, Governments have given help to the primary producers, particularly dairy­men.

The PREoiiER: Do you favour the app!;ca­t.ion of the principle all round?

Mr. BRAI\D: Most certainly. The PREoliER: In other words, everybod:c

in debt should have his debt written off.

"1r. BRAND: Those who are in advers'' circumstances bee a use of ca,uses beyond their control should have some assistance. That is a recognised principle a,. regards various sections of the community and one that has been recognised for primary pro­ducer' in the past. N cvcrtheless, the prin­ciples of this Bill empower that dairying ascociations that advanced moneys supplied hv t.he Goyernrnent to tho farmers to reclain1 such monevs.

I believe that it, will be the first time in the histon of the State that moneys will be collecte'd in the manner proYided in this Hill. This is the first occasion on which it has been found nececsary for Parliament to. pass an Act empowering the enforcement of "uch pavments. Hitherto Governments, through the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock. haYe made the adYanccs and the pro­ducers, if at all possible, made repayment. \Yhen the Government found that it wae impm•sible for them to meet their indebted­ne·-'·. no compulsion was used.

Th" dairying indush7 has had the worst cxp(•rience in its history. There has not been a period when the whole of the south­eastern part of the State was in the throes of drought at one time. and with almost the whole industrv und('rgomg drought con­ditions. C'\ aturally, a great cle_al of suffer­ing has occurred, and coming 111 close ~on: tact with these people I have ascertameu that theY have indeed passed through a wry difficult period. Many did not know· where the next meal was to come from. In thec,e circumstances it is only fitting that we should express our views to the Govern­ment and the :Minister in charge of the Bill, and that thev should extend every sympathy to thi, section of the people to enable them to retrieYe their position.

I sugge't that the Y1inistcr go further than the proposal submitted by the B1ll a1~d the concessions in inte-rest charges giYen In the past be continued, together with any other relief that can be granted.

The PREMIER: I think -you are a disciple of I\icholls.

:\fr. BRAND: I am imploring the Secre­tarv for Ao-riculture and Stock to give these peci'ple the" hcl p they need. I think th_e hon. gentleman, like the Secretary for Agn­culture and Stock, recognises that when the producers were passing through a, ':ery difli­cult period it was necessary _to g1_ve them help. I think it was under h1s regune that certain help was given, but he did not call for the immediate return of the money.

At all events let it be said on this occa­sion that the m~ney advanced, in all approxi­mately £129,000, certainly conferred a great benefit on the State of Queensland. It enabled the dairy stock of this State to be saYed at a period when it was necessn,ry to• saYe them. The money advanced, together with the breaking of the drought, enabled the dainmen to continue the productiOn of a commodity of great va,lue to the State and to the people of Queensland.

l'Vlr. Bmnd.]

1256 Drought Reli<>j, Etc., [ASSE:\IBLY.] Validation Bill.

It is Lrue that most of the areas m which dairying is practised have passed through a long period of drought. It is also true ~that most of the men who sought relief from the Government have not been able to make a standard living "age in their industry or keep themselves in a reasonable -degre<> of comfort. The necP,sity of begin­ning repayments of loans is inflicting a further hardship upon them. It is in the i llterests of good government and of the State that this money should not be

·demanded until they fire in a position to pro­vide for themselves in a reasonable state -of comfort, and have something to spare for repayments to the Government.

I do not think we should countenance the llelief that men who got this aid at a time when they most needBd it will not return the money. I believe that when they are in a positwn to do so they will be prepared to meet their obligations to the GovBrnment. In the interim they need every help the Uovernment can give them. I strongly urge that the Minister should not call upon them for interest payments for at least another twelve months, or for the rBturn of the principal sum at present. It looks as if the drought has broken, and with increased prices abroad for the com­modities of the industry the people engaged in it are likely to have a better time. It is quite obvious that when the cows thev have saved have freshened up the producers will be in a better position to meet their responsi­bilities to the Governm<'nt.

It should not be forgotten that during the period of stress-a. period when they were unable to make enough to kBep themselves in a reasonable standard of comfort-they incurred considerable debts to storekeepers and others, to supply themselves and their families with the necessities of life. So rhat on the breaking of the drought thBy will have to meet responsibilities to others than the Gover.nment. Business people in all

·country towns in Queensland will be expect­ing the liquidation of debts incurred by the ·dairymen.

The principles contained in the Bill indi­·cate a desire that the men shoul-d make some return of the money that has been lent to them and that they stand up to their responsibilities. In my opinion it would be a gods~nd if the Government C"Juld make some remission of the dBbt that these men have incurred in g-etting this relief. It would be some encouragement to continue their labours. At lBast thev would not be imbued with the idea that they were so

-deeply in that it was very little use attempt­ing to get themselves out of the mire.

\Ve have always looke-d upon the dairying industry as being important to the develop­ment of a country such as this. Therefore, it is one that deserves all the help and protection that can be given to it bv the

·GovBrnment of the day. We have, by certain Acts of Parliament, endeavoured to do a great deal for it, and we on this side of the t-Iouse take this opportunity of appeal­ng to the Government to give greater relief

.and greater help to the industry than they have already giv-en.

Mr. COLLINS (Cook) [7.27 p.m.]: This Government have always recognised that the dairy farmers, in fact farmers in general, ure deserving of every help that can rea­

. souably be given to them. I venture to say that no other Government have given

[Mr. Brand.

a greater measure of relief than have the present Government.

All this Bill seeks to do is to ratify what was agreed to between the dairymen, the factories. and the Government. After listen­ing to the ,peeches of hon. members oppo­site. one would think that the farmers de,ired to repudiate that agreBment. I believe that I have had as long an association with farmers and as much practical experience in farming as any hon. members opposite.

::\1r. EDWARDS: I do not think you have. Mr. COLLI~S: Then the hon. member has

another think coming. If I know farmers at all-and I claim that I do-I should say that they are the last men in Queens­land to want to rBpudiate anything. They are honest, hard-working folk who are desirous of honouring all their obligations to the Crown.

The Crown has allowed twelve months free of interest, and during that perwd very little or no redemption has been made. To wipe off the interest, and to wipe off the redemption payments, as has been suggested by hon. members opposite, would mean wiping off whose money? It is not thB Government's money; it is money belonging to the people of Queensland, and to ask that we wipe off these debts owing by the farmers is to ask, in effect, that the debt b" transferred to the shoul-ders of some other section of the community. If hon. members opposite are not asking for that, then apparently they are supporting the Social Credit proposals of loans that will not have to be redeemed and on which no interest will be payable. That, in effect, is what hon. members opposite are advocating. Everybody would approve of that idea if he owed money, but thB Government have undertaken to raiee the money for the dairy farmers, and the Government must see that it is repaid.

Mr. MAHER: Did you not support the pro­posal last year to advance the money free of intere,.t for twelve months?

Mr. COLLINS: Because it was proposed to give that measure of assistancE'. Now the Government are only asking that the agreement be validated, and hon. members opposite are not interpreting the desires of the farmers aright when they advocate the repudiation of that contract. The money has to be repaid by somBbody, and it is the man who has had the advantage of the loan whG should pay it.

vVc have heard quite a lot in this House allout the burdens of the taxpayer. We know he has a heavy burden to carry, but the tax comes definitely back to the indus­trial section of the people every time.

;}1 r. MAHER : It is interesting to hea1· the hon. member studying the interests of the taxpayer.

Mr. COLLI:!'JS: We have always stud1ed the interests of the taxpayer very carefully. It is the taxpayer who must find this money a.nd I am sure nobody wishes to transfer the obligation from one section of taxpayers to another. Many of the industrious, thrifty, and provident farmers, even over the last two years, have boon able to. make provision for bad times. I was speakmg to a dairv farmer from Boonah, the very centre ~f the drought-stricken dairying area, who told me that he had enough feed on his farm to supply the whole of the require-

, ments of his stock and that his butter

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NovEe~IBER.] Validation Bill. l2i:i7

facl:'ry cheque this year w.,s down not more than £15 below that of last year and the year before that.

\11\ rr.l.NKETT: Where dors he live?

Mr. COLLINS: The hon. member prob­ably knows him. He is Mr. Evans, the well-known Jersey breeder, who judged the dany stock at the recent Millaa Millaa show.

Mr. 13RAXD: Do you think that is typical of all the farmers?

:\Ir. COLLI:\S: 1'\o, but I am pointing out that if frugal, industrious and provident farmers canmake provision against drought, others can do the same. The dairv farmer, in almo,t every country of the world have to make prm·ision for a lean p,•riod. It may be for a six months' winter. The farmers can get help fnm the Gm·ernment eve.!.l in good tune!::\ in order to provide a greater supply of fodder for use in time of drought. There are hundreds of farmers throu:;hout Queensland who are able to make ample provision against dr. ught l;mt unfortuantely, the majority do not, and t~ them the GoYernment ha Ye extended a wondcrfnl me-asure of hPlp by giving them loans wrthout security free of interest for a year.

This Government have never been hard on the farmers in the repayment of loans. Let us consrder for a moment the treatment extended to them by the 1 Department of Publrc Lands, the Department of Agriculture and Stock, and the Agricultural Bank. Thev have_ ever extended to the farmer the greates-t consrderatwn. Go where one will through­out Queensland and speak to the farmer one will hear him expre,, satisfaction in ge{,eral wrth the treatment he receives from this Government. To suggest to the farmer that be should repudiate his agreement with the Gm·ernment-that, in effect, is the inference to be drawn from the statements of hon. members opposite-is the last thing that the farmer desires. His only desire is an oppor­tmuty to repay the whole of the indebtedness he has incurred. This Government have extended to him every consideration and 1 am certain he is thoroughlv satisfied ~ith tho treatment ho has received:

Mr. PLDXKETT (A.lbe,·t) [7.36 p.m.]: In my opinion the Government, by agreeing to the amendment, could make a splendid ges­ture to a section of the community that is in real need of consideration. The amendment does not say, nor is it to be inferred from it, that the farmers do not want to repav the advance. I agree with the hon. member for Cook thu t 99 per cent. of the farmers will liquidate their indebtedness to the Govern­ment if given consideration. In fact they will make greater efforts to do so tha'n anv other section of the community. "

I have no objection to the Government's affording winter relief and extending good­will cheer to another section of our com­munity. It is a splendid gesture on their behalf to a section who deserve and need it. I am in full accord with that gesture. It demonstrates to those people that the Govern­ment have some thought for them, and that fact inspires them to become better citizens. If the Government make mistakes it is 'better to make them on the side of liberality. So I support the amendment to exempt loans granted for fodder relief purposes from intere't for another twelve months. Thev were made to down-and-out farmers, or fanners very much in need because they had

to be in a position such that they could not obtain credit anywhere else. In fact, they signed a declaration that they were not able· to obtain credit and could not get feed for their stock. It is pretty hard to ask a man to sign such a declaration, and the fact that this section of our far,ning community sig·ned that -declaration is evidence of their straitened circumstances.

The drought has now broken and it would be a splendid gesture on the part of the Government, especially at this period when it is claimed that unemployment is lower now than it has been smcc 1929, and when the economic position has so improved that the basic wage has been increased, and holiday benefits extended to other workers-it would be a splendid gesture to make this little concession to another section who are so­wrely in need of it. This section are help­ing to build up our national assets, and the adnmce was made for the purpose of pre­serving them. If the Government accepted the amendment it would give this section an inspiration to repay their loan indebtedness, especially as the drought has now broken.

People may argue that prices are better now. That may be so, but that only affect> the man whose herd is producing. Many of the farmers in are:1s where min has fallen are short of stock and they have not enough rnoney to purchase any, but an exten::-iou of anothec· twelve months without interest would materiallv aid them to reach a stage of high production again, and that would be to the advantage of the State.

I W'l.s surprised to hear the Iron. member for Cook sac· that it was sugg<stecl frnm this .side of the House that the loan should be repudiated. That thought was not in my mind and I think anybody who suggested it would be entirely in the wrong. The farmers do not want to repudiate at all.

After all is said and done, the farmer 'has to pay his unemployment reliex tax th<> same as anybody else; and if he has to pay to help other persons who are not in a position to help themselves then it is equally right that they should be afforded some relief in the way of an interest-free loan

'to enable them to build up their herds ancl reach a stage of high production at an early date.

The hon. member for Cook said the Government gave them a loan without security. That is not a fact. There is ample security, because every factory signed an agreement that it would find the money. T have had a varied experience in endeavom·­ing t.o obtain loans for farmers when they have had ample security.

The hon member also mentioned the case of a farmer who has been able to make provi­sion for feeding his stock during the clrought. There are hundreds of farmers ,-ho have done that.

:;\1r. f:oLLrc;s: That only bea~·s out my contention.

Mr. PL'CNKETT: Although hundreds of farmers ha.ve been able to do that I point out they are not all on the same footing. The quality of the land owned by farmers varies and the rainfall in different area"' Yarres and therefore fodder production varies. Hundreds of farmers have been able to make the same provi.sion that JV1r. Ev111rs did and only 6.000 odd farmers out of 20.000 or 25,000 found it necossarv to seek relief. Some farmers have be~n" able to

Mr. Plunkett.]

1258 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Validation Bill.

make provtston for fodder because their land was of good quality or they have been able to get money to buy it. Mr. Eva.ns, whom the hon. gentleman referred to, is a well known Jersey breeder and anyone who io breeding high-class stock always has a farm of high quality that enables him to make adequate provision for such eventuali­ties. I do not wish to discourage Mr. Evans' efforts in >tn2· way~I give him due credit for his efforts~but it is not fair to say that a breeder of high-class stock is in a similar position to the general run of farmers.

~Ir. COLLINS: There were 18,000 farmers who did the same.

Mr. l'LUNKETT: Thev have not all been working under the same· conditions as the farmers who found it necessar.v to apply for relief. Many farmers have started with hardly any capital. We know that people who came into the dairying industry in the last five or six years never had the same opportunity to make provision for hard times as manv olde_r settlers, such as myself, have had. Ever smce these recent settlers have been on the land they have not had an opportunity of saving money, but they have lost money and have had to pay interest on what they owed. It would be a splendid gesture if the Government gave these farmers a further extension of twelve months under the same conditions. It must be possible because they have been able to give them an interest-free loan for twelve months. No people deserve it better and could make better use of it than these.

Mr. EDWARDS (Nanango) [7.45 p.m.]: I wish to ''~Y a few w.ords on this Bill, par­ticularly after having listened to the evidence of i he wonderfully wide experience of the dairying industry and farming in Queens· land generally of the hon. member for Cook. Practical farmers, having heard him make his speech, would conclude he knew very little of our condit1ons except those of the locality in North Queensland in which he liY<". At the present time conditions are such that the settler carrying on mixed farming and dairying is in a much wor.ee position than, say, a. month ago. Those farmers have to find seed and do a great deal of ,,- Tk in a very short space of time.

Prior to ka.ving home yesterday afternoon I saw that, whereas the paddocks had been nloughed thev would need to be reploughed, because the farmers had not been able to get on the land quickly enough after the rain. This would be true •Of tens of thousands of acres throughout the South Burnett dis· trict. This land must be either reploughcd or gone over with a cultivator. That is very expensive.

Furthermore, the farmers must find seed, and, as the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock knows, this must be obtained from all quarters. The other day a young fellow showed me his cheque book. A number in a small branch of local producers' association had combined and £85 had been paid out for Sudan grass seed alone. This is an example of some of the diffi­culties farmers have to contend with and at ti.mcs, after falls of rain, even before the road is sufficiently clear for the farmers to get into town, the busineso people expect them to clear a certain amount of their ·indebtedness. 'That is quite a. common thing, and every.one must realise the diffi-

[Mr. Plunkett.

cultics they' are placed in under the present conditions.

The remarks of the hon. member for Cook are not at all true of mixed farming or dairying in Southern Queensland. Hon. members will be fair enough to admit that 200 tons of lucerne is a reasonable amount for a small man to conserve, but that quan­tity 11 as used up twelve months ago and cows that have not perished have been taken away to Iron Pot Creek or Burrandowan for agistment. I feel sure that if the hon. member underst.ood these conditions he would not have made the statement hP did

It is quite true that there aru a few men who havP no great responsibility or have not large families and run only a certain number of cows. who stock fodder for the cattle. Particularly, does this apply to the breeder of pure-bred st.ock. Immediately a dry spell occurs the surplu:,, stock are taken off. But the ordinary farmer with a family to main h. in and interest charges to meet cannot afford to do this. He is 'in an altogether different position. The r<Jcords for this v<Jar of the factories situated almost all, over the State, other than the far ?\ m·th, disclose the enormous difficulties that these men have struggl<'d to contend with in the last two and a-half years. It is nd only the cost of keeping their dairy herds alive that has to be faced; many farmers have worked hard, bought seed, and sown that seed, and got no result from it.

Mr. \VALSH: That happens in every farm­ing pursuit.

Mr. EDW ARDS: That is true, and the hon. member can appreciate the costs entailed. Last year over large areas in Southern Queensland there was not a single crop of maize, although some farmers had as much as 100 acres under the crop.

).lr. \VALSH: Do they never make a profit?

:Yir. EDW ARDS: Many of them do not make a profit, and many are struggling along year after year, hoping for the best.

Mr. JESSON: There are a lot of '',vinge-ers,'' too.

~1r. EDWARDS: It is unfortunate that hon. members opposite do not try to under­c;tand the position of the man on the land. The Minister is quite conscientious in his effort to do something for the farmers of the State. but he does not understand their position; he does not understand the l>racti­cal side of the matter and the costs involved in running a farm successfully under th"'" conditions, and at the sa1ne tirne storing fodder when there is an opportunitc· to do so.

::\1r. \VALSH: And there are few farmers who actually understand the business.

Mr. EDWARDS: It is all very well for the hon. member, a sugar gro,vcr, to ~neer at other farmers who help to keep the sugar gro\Ycr going.

Mr. JESSON: You arc jealous.

Mr. EDWARDS: Yes, I am jealous of the sugar growers, because the rest of Australia is k<?eping them. It is to the advantage of everyone in this State to see that men who are in difficulties-and the difficulties are brought about by conditions mentioned here to-night-get help to reach a stable position again as quickly as possible. It is to the advantage of the Government that such help should be rendered to them. As the Minister

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NoVE}iBER.] Validation Bill. 1251}

said. it is only taking money from one ta'<­payer to give it to another. As soon a" one man is put on his feet, he becomes a t~x­paycr, and so tho system ·of assistance cou1c1 be extended right throughout the countr_,-. That is my argument. By the Government's assisting liberally in every way possible to put thos0 people back on their feet it Jvill not only help those immediately concerned. but also make towards the development of th2 country-greater Jlroduction and wealth­and crC'ate a great deal more emplo.nnC'nt than exists at the present time.

From that point of view alone I think the Minister would be well advised to at cept the suggestion made by the Leader of the Oppo­sition. Let us do everything possible to put these nwn back in a good sound position again. It is true-although this has been said oYer and over again-that manv of the herds in the State are not one-third the number they were two and a-half years ago. Dairymen will be hard-prossed to keep tlwmselYes and families in food and clothing for the next twehe months. I am sure the :\linistn will appreciate their difficulties. :Many persons haYe bought machinery during this period of drought-from time to time they made purchases thinking thr~ drought would break -and payments on that machinery have to be met. Therefore, it is not onlv the GoYernrnent account the': will h:t\·e to mod, but manv more besidr s.' For that rrason I a;:;:.k the ~::\Iinistcr t.o gi\~c ~criou~ con:-;1dera­tion to the suggestion that has been put fon.-ard bv this side of the House. and that he do eve'rythinp; that he can to h<•lp tiH•sc farmers to regain their usual position. By so doing he will assist the State in generaL

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTCRE A:'\D STOCK (Hon. F. \Y. Bulcock, Harron) [i'.55 p.m.]: I ha Ye listened with a great deal of attention to what hon. members oppo­>itc have had to say with respect to the ya]idation of these agreements. It has been intPrf~ting, becan;:e only a little while ago­in fact at·an earlier hour of this san1e sitting -a Yisib~e shudder ran over hon. members opposite when one hon. membcr-I think it \Yas the hon. member for Toowong-whie­perer1 with bated brea-th, "Repudiation." A tremendous feeling of anxiety was clcmon­sh·ated here a ±e.\' days ago _when, I think. the hon. member for Hamrlton entreated the Government not to embark on anv polic' of repudiation. ' '

?vir. RcSSELL: Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLT'GRE AKD STOCK: The hon, member says, " Hear, hear!" He says that the sanctity of a contract must not be violated. I believe that hon. members opposite, in general. as -do all hon. m em hers on this side of the House, share the opmwn that that sanctity should not be violated. Hon. mem­bers opposite kn }W that there is no mg­gestion of repudiation from this side of the House; nor should there be any suggestion of repudiation fu.>m the opposite sid0 of the House.

:\lay I suggest to hon. member~ opposite that wo are not yet living in a Douglas Credit era. and so long as we are not living in that Douglas Credit era it is quite obvious that we have got to face our obligations 1

W o should be prepared to say to those persons who advertise Douglas Credit, a creed that I, personally, cannot understand­and I do not think many of the advocates

of Douglas Credit can undor.,tand it-that no matter what financial proposal may be put up they must realise that at some time, in ~orne "-ay, sorne day. somebody has gOt to pa,'. That is the whole story. The question then resolYes itself into this : \Yho is going to pay? As I said before, hon. mem­bers opposite vi,cibly tremble at any sug­gestion of repudiation, yet at a later stage wme shadow of repucliation falls oYer the· Opposition.

Let me trace the history cf the agree­Ulents that v;e are now proposing to validate. (in the represent rtions d both sides of the IIouBe-and I want to be perfectly fair in this regard-on representations made to the Premier and to mvself bv hon. members on both sides of the, HousC:, a conference \Ya; called, which was presided over by me, and I wa~ authorised as Government spokes­man. to put certain propc.,.als to the men \Yho rnet me on that orrutsion. If n1-v nH'nlorv :-cl'', e~ 1110 rightl.v, there w-·re at ~lca~t twO rnernbt>r~ of the Opvu~ition pre-.;;ent at that t onfr•r·t nee, and they hQcl a perfect right to Le pre,cnt as representative' of the dc,iry factories in which they arc interested. \Ve diseus~.ccl ways and means, and ev.cry repreM "'ntative at that conference knew my pro­pmals. Finally. after we had been in con­fprencc all clay-and the general terms of my proposals were abundantly clear to the n:en who were concerncd-i t l\'as agre,•d that although they personally agreed to the pro­posal that I had put forward, they desired further time because they felt that they could not bind their directors and their· organi~ations. Th0v returned to their rcspcctiYe distrirts and summoned meetings of their directors. These had an oppor­tunity to examine every phase of the question that the delegate;, to the conference sub­mitted to them. Then' was no ·durcsJ in that. and there wa,s no haste. Thev knew the basis of the agreement, and ever! b0fore they had signifierl their intention of signing it. money was being made available through the factories to the suppliers who were being ravaged by drought.

So that it cannot be claimed that these men entered into the agreement without a

full knowledge of all that it stood for, or that they were hastened by the exigencies of the circumstances into signing it. As a matter of fact I had begun and continued to distribute the money twenty-s,eYon ·t1ays before the first completed agreement reached me from a factory. \Ve took that risk, GoYernments have to tako risks.

Hon. members opposite have admitted that Governrncnts a1~8 lenient when it con1es to collecting debt•. l'an any hon. member oppoeito .-ay that he has any personal know­ledge of any hardship inflicted on any sup­pliC'r who is indebted to a factorv, and therefore to the Government, under this agreen1ent?

Mr. :'.IAHER: Yes.

The SECRE'I'ARY FOR AGRIGCLTURE A:'\D STOCK : I should be very pleased if the hon. gentleman would give me the details.

Mr. MAHER: I will do that when I am addressing myself to the second reading of the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC'CL1TRE AND STOCK: There is only one case where a farmer has written to me and made a complaint. It is true that where thev have written to me I haYe always referre<1 their

Hon. P. W. Bulcock.]

1260 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Validation Bill.

representations to the factory. I reiterate that we have informed the factories, not unofficially, a,s has been suggested by the Deputy Leader of th<, Opposition, but officially, that the capacity of the farmer to pay has to be taken into consideration. Who is better able to gauge his capacity to pay than the faJtory concerned? The distribu­tion was ma.de through the factories becau"e it was obvious tha,t the factories would be au fait with the circumstances of each hrmer. I believe that was a wise thing to do. Hon. members opposite talk about want of generosity. vVhen we come to consider that approximately £130,000 was distributed, and that ~ have. collected only £19,000 odd, there JS no cVJdence of duress :m my part or the Government's. And there cm be no mg­gestion that the Government hu ve acted like a Shylock.

J\Ir. J\1AHE!l: The twelye months are not up.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE A:'\D STOCK : An hon. member opposite made the statement the other day that I had sa1d, or that there wa' some agreement, or some understanding, that no collections would take place until twelve months had expired. That statement is absolutelv untrue. That as never pro1nised by nH'~. never suggested by n1e, Hvr is ther.e any record of such a suggestion having been ma-de in the very full minutes that were kept of the conferencu referred to earlier in mv spe<.·ch. I cannot be responsible for the interpretation that hon. members opposite may place on a clause. I have seen hon. members place the most incredible interpre­tation' on clauses. Clauses clear and trans­parent have been cor"truod into meaning something which nobody could undersbnd from them.

Mr. BR.i;;"D: I have heard you do that, too.

1\Ir. J\IAXWELL: He was pretty good at it.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE A:'\D STOCK: I do not think so. I ahvays made an endeavour to understand the text of a Bill before I attempted to debate it.

I reitdate that there was not at any time any ougp;estion that collections would not begin until after twelve months, but that was always qualified and that qualification still obtains-it is that the capacity of the farmer to repay is to be taken into con­sideration by the factories, who know the circumstances of the farmers.

I w,:e somewhat amused bv some remarkc of the hon. member for 'Nanango. He pleaded that dairy farmers had private dehh. Does not a Government debt rank at least equal to a private debt? Should the Government stand lightly on one side while private creditors-the type of per­sons described by the hon. member as Shvlock-make demands on the farmers before the ground is dry in the paddock 'I They should rank at least equal to them.

Let us see the position that obtained on the North Coast areas of New South \Vales at the same period and the type of assist­ance that was offered there. Some persons foolishly believe that Governments, differ­entlv constituted to this and with different political beliefs, are likely to be more liberal to the priman producer than this Government. Let me give concrete example8, one involving some members of the Opposi­tion. Drought prevailed on the North Coast

[Hon. F. W. Bulcock.

of :'\ew South Wales, and it was more intense on the Xorthern Rivers than in Queensland. Application was made to the Government of Kew South Wales by persons in the distressed areas for some financial relief. That Government said. "We will take a charge over the assets of the associa­tion and we will make money available only under those conditions." They required a bill of sale, or such other security as the association could give over its assets in return for some financial assistance to the euppliers. That involved the good and t~e bad. It meant that the fellow who was m distres', as well as the man who was not in distress. would be equally responsible for tfie debts that were incurred. It meant more than that. It meant that every penny bor­rowed by the association would have to be repaid by it.

Contrast that with the action of the <:;'ueensland Government over the same period. IV e called a conference together and said. "\Ve are prepared to make money availabk to vou. The legal questions are not matters ' for consideration at the moment. The real question is how to save an individual and national asset-the dairy­ing industry." vVe succeeded, in spite of what hon. members say to the contrary and in spite of the information they believe they have, I want to take this opportunity of assuring you, 1\'Ir. Speaker, that as a rcsuit of the relid we provided at that period the losses in QueeJ?sland were not nearly so great a" many believed they would be. It is true that many old unprofitable cows died. Probably they were deliberately allowed to die. So far as I can ac{)ertam from the figures compiled through the ag~J?CY of mv stock inspectors the drought pos1t10n did ri'ot materially reduce the dairy herds.

Mr. 1\'IAHER: Did it not cost the State £2,500,000 in losses?

The SECRETAltY FOR AGRICULTURE A::\D STOCK : That is not a reply to the fact I have stated. Cows may live but nm; yield. The hon. gentleman is confusing the hvo issues.

1\Ir. MAHER: Ko, I am not.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE A:'\D STOCK : I am talking about the mortality occasioned by the drought. The hm1. gentleman is talking about the pro­duction losses occasioned by the drought Tvco entirely dissimilar matters.

Let us examine the various proposals that have been put forward by the Leader of the Opposition. The hon. gentleman suggested that some qualifications to the agreement are dc-,irable. He suggested I get in touch with the various factories, and he benevolently gave me two days in order to ascertain the opinion of the factories on certain stated questions that he submitted. The hon. gentle­man gave me in effect, one day, because he proposed late on Tuesday that the Bill be deferred until Thursday, which means Thursday morning. What he requires me to do is obviously to telegraph to all the factories. It is obvious to the hon. gentle­man that directors are not in continuous session; therefore, you would not get the information from all the rlirectors or a majority of the directors of the factories. That is point No. 1.

Point No. 2 is that the hon. gentleman is asking me to awk the various factories,

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NovEMBER.] Validation Bill. 1261

in effect, " Would you like anot~;r interest­free period of twelve months 1 That is really what it amounts to.

Mr. 2\lAHER: What would be the outcome 1

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK : The answer is so obvwus that I should merely be wasting departmental money to send a telegram of that kind. to these factories, and, therefore, we can arrive at a decision on this question without the expense and trouble of getting in touch with them.

As a matter of fact, the suggestion of the hon u1crnber is radiPr ludierou~. bccau~c you. can sav with everv degree of clarity what the answer would 'be. We should not be "aving "\Vhat will the answer be? " but I could ,~rite a reply to the telegram I sent out ~imultanr~ou~lv wit.h dictating the tele­gram, and the answer would be various nmphatic replies in the affirmative. That 1s, uf course, the reason for. rejecting the ho~. gentleman's first suggestiOn that I defer 1t ,_;ntil Thursday. My mind is perfectly clear Dll tho'e matters.

Mr. Ell'SARDB: Tht'ce men you 1YOt!ld get ji1 touch \\ ith arf' eon:;:-cicntiou~lv \Yorkiug in the interests of the dairying industry.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: I did not quite catch the interjection, but I know it was somMhing about conscientious and the da1rymg mdus­trv. Probablv the hon. m~mber has made siffiilar rema1~ks on 1nany occasions.

Let us face this question not in the face­tious manner suggested by the hon. member for :;\; anango but with due regard to all the facts tha't arc associated with it. The -dairying industry has, unfortunately, wit~in the last few weeks received bounteous rams that are going to rapidly rejuvenate it. Take that in conjunction with the rising prices rtnd the high overseas parity of Queensland butters. vV c are of course, aware that that is brought about most largely hy the pro­hibition of dairy exports from Russ1a. vVe know the reasons why Russia has prohibited dairy exports; and I think we can ":s<ume that so long as this unpleasantness eXIsts m the Ea,t, Rm·,ia is not very likely to go on to the English market. My information is that the English market will stabilise­perhaps not at the present figure, but at a satisfactory figure-and will remain on that stabilised point for a considerable time­certainly, if my advisers inform me correctly "nd if their views are well f•ounded, durmg Dur major export season.

\Ve have to remember just one other fact that enters into the consideration of this subject. The public of Queensland and the publit of An:;tralia have, over a number .of vears, and more particularly during the dep;'P•sion years, made contributions towards the mh-ency of the dairying industry. W:e had the Paterson scheme, and when It broke do-m this Parliament was the first in Australia to legislate for the new scheme. This stabilisation scheme provided for a domestic pa,rity and all persons who. bought butter-and I presume everybody m Aus­tralia cats butter-made and still make a contribution to the solvency of the dairying industn-. vVc desire to maintain that scheme· It should be maintained, and I belieYe. it will be I!llcintained_ Neverthe­less, it is true that the public of Austr:>lia are making each and every day a contnbu­tion to the &:Jlvency of that industry.

If I have understood the Leader of the Opposition correctly, he desires to eonvert an obligation that rests on th~ da1ry . fac­tories, and consequently en thmr supphers, to a charge on general revenue. The hon. t;cntleman must realise that the £120,000 made available came from loan funds, and that the loan obviously carries a rate of interest prescribed by the Loan Council. Somebody, somewhere, and at some time, has to make good the intcro,,t reqmrements nf that monev. The hon. gentleman will admit that w'G have to meet that interest charo-e. The public of AchtraJi,a. and Onel~lsland arp making a contribution to the ,;airying industry. I' b'2lieve the public of ,\ ustm.lia are willing to make that contn­bution and desire to see ,the industry nabilised and to give it the maximum assistance that tlw public can, but I do not 1 h ink the public are prepared to stabilise it and at the same time carry a part of the obligations of the dairy farmer in respect n[ drought relief repayments,

Has the hon. gentleman any reason to bclieYe that tho policy laid down by this ! ; overnment in respect of repayments over tbe past several months will be reversed morely by the validation of the agreement in the manner proposed hP re? Surely tho indicationc' are that this Government are not a Shvlock GoYernment, and when I repeat that the basis of ropaymcnt obvicusly must he capacity to pay, I think that the hon. ~:;cntlcman's contentions arc to a great extent defeated, not in a pious way but by the "ctual practices that ha vc been adopted by t l1is GovcrnnTent.

At an earlier stage I promised to give an example of how men in different posi­tions regard their financial responsibilities. It is all vc1-y well for the hon. members opposite who· arc not charged either with finding the capital required or money neces­' -,n· to m·ct intercet on loan funds to 'attempt to take charg-e of the rcYenue of this StatE'. There is a fairly large sum invoh-ed in this queshcn. but. 11r. Speaker, t! 1 cre \Yas a time that you rnay remember when Queensland was administered by what 1s known and will continue to be known for a )ono- time as the ::Yloore Government. \Vhcn th';;.t Government took over there was a small debit of £42 000 on aceount of advances madr for drou'ght relief against the accounts of the dairy farmers of Queens­b,nd. That amount was owing to the Department of Ag-riculture and Stock on ~ccount of the clrought relief scheme that had been initiated not b,- the Premier, but by his predecess-or, t,ho 'late Hon. vV. N. Gillies. Suggestions havP been made fr?m the other side of the Hous0 that we wipe these debts out. Let me submit this ques­tion: Was that £42,000 owing to the Depart­ment of Agriculture and Stock bv da1ry farmers of Queensland written off o; was it carried forward from year to year as a reo:verable debt'!

Mr. WALKER: ::\"ot dairy farmers, wheat farmers.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE A:-.;D STCCK: Does the hon. member want me to deal with that phase, too'! I am glad he raised that question. The answer to my question is that it was not written off by the :Moorc Government but carried forward from year to year as a recoverable debt. Thanks to the hon. member I am

Hon. F. W. Bulcock.]

1262 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Validation Bill.

now reminded of another little phase to this question. Did the ex-Secretary for Agricul­ture and Stock wipe off the debts of wheat farmers? l'\o, he did not. I have thus two instances whore hon. members opposite had the opportunity of wiping debts off but did not do so. ~ow, not having any respon­sibility for the finances of the State, thev suggest that wo should wipe these debts off.

Mt·. MAHER: Th(' amendment does not •uggest it,,

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICFLTFRE AND STOCK: Interest is quite obviouslv a part of debt. The point I am endeavour-ing to make is that if the competent dairv farmers do not pay this intereiot somebod.~ else has to pay it. The hon. member sa vs, "Ver.v well, let us pay interest from relief funds." To the crPdit of thP hon. members opposite he it said, thev never used the proceeds of relief taxatimi' to relieve private debt either wholly or in part. Hon. members opposite were responsible for the unemploy­ment relief legislation. and thev had the pioneering stagL' of it in their hands. I haYe made A careful search and at no tin1e did they use relief funds for the relief of printc dehtc, either wholly or in part. The hon. gentlemen oppoeite suggest that I do this­that we use relipf funds for the relief whollv or in part-the part being interest-cif private' debt. This Government hayc followed the excellent example bid down hv the Moore Gm-ernmcnt. I haYe con­s{ilted the Premier on this matter and in no instance haY'c relief funds been applied in aid of the relief of priYate debt. I personally think that a very had practice would he set up if relief funds vverc used to relieve private debt in the wa:> suggested by hon. members of the Opposition.

;vir. ::YlAHER: \\'hat is a relief fund for hut to help people who are destitute'?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTCRE AND STOCK: The hon. gentleman shifh his ground. He said, alternativelv. that the period of freedom from interest· should be extended for at least a further tweln months. \Ve have extended it to the end of this current calendar vear and that, of course, wili confer an imntediatf' benefit on the farmel'f concerned. Is it not obvious that a Government having any regard for the solvencv of their State must take what steps may 'be necessary in order not only to conserve the finances of th,, State, hut to see that just obligations of indi,-iduals to the State arc discharged? It is obvious that were the Government to grant a further extension of twelve months, there would be no repayments at all during that period. I am convinced, and my experience during the last several months confirms my com·ic­tion, that if we had money outstancling that was interest-free, the av-ailable amount of money that could he used for the discharge of debts would he used to discharge debts that carry interest. That is -obvious, and therefore the position would be virtually the same in twelve months' time as it is to-day.

Then the hon. gentleman says that no deductions should be made in the case of a man who has an income of, say, £12 a month. Why £12 a month? Why not be more ambitious? Why not gain greater prestige by making it £5 or £6 a month?

Mr. MAHER: ~o. I am puttinii; it below the ha~ic wage standard.

[Hon. F'. W. Bulcock.

The RECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTURE A:\"D STOCK: I am just a little intrigued as to why the hon. gentleman say,, " Say, £12 a month."

The PREMIER: Quite a. stab in the dark

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: AXD STOCK: Quite a stab in the dark, '-'' the Premier says.

Mr. }lAHER: Xo, deliberate.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUR:b A?\D STOCK: Then let us accept the prin­ciple that nobody with a total gross incomf, of less than £12 a month-I take it that i< "·hat the hon. gentleman means-would bJ subject to any deductions. The circmnstanccs of individuals vary. I shall find it exceed­ingly difficult, as no doubt did the Leader of the Opposition, to lay down cwy basic· ftgure, bnt I have assured the hon. gentle­man-nnd the dairv factoric5 know thL position-that the ca[Jacity of the individual to pay is to he the deciding factor. s,_, that very largely discounts the suggest10n that has been made by the hon. gentleman.

For peopaganda purposes, ho,ve,Ter, \VC find tlce hon. gentleman saying, if I under­:;;tood hirn correctly, that wages not in exress of thC' ba~ic wage cannot be garnisheed, according to the Act that was pa.ssed last :<(''':-ion. Thc~re is really no comparison there. It is true that the basic wage earner cannot have his earnings garnisheed, but he is still competent to be sued in a magistrate's. court for debt. r.rhe magistrate is com­pc•tent to order lev-y and cl is tress. A garni.shcc applies only when the money of the debtor is in· the possession of 'o. third party, thnt is to say, the employer. There­fore, there is really no analogy, and the· basic wage earner is not relieved from dis­charging his legitimate debts under that Act. Therefore, in using the parallel that he has, the Leader of the Opposition has not quoted a perfect analogy, and all that we <~re sug­gesting in the legislation now before us is that the farmer, to the extent that he is capable of so doing, shall repay his jus'> debts in the way that is laid down in the agreement that he entered into. withoui· duress, and as stated in the governing agree­ment entered into by the factory, after due deliberation.

Hon. members opposite suggest at times that this Government have not clone manv things for the farming community. Let u's tell hon. members opposite that if we totalled up into its various sections the numerous phases of legislation-agricultural. social and so forth-we should find that the Labour Government in Queensland have made th·~ biggest contribution to the farming legisla­tion of the State, and the enactmcnts of Labour, the envy of the world, haYe been copied by many countries of the world. It was Labour that set the torch alight in primary producers' organisations and com· modity control. It was the Labour Party that gave the dairy farmers stabilisation. It was the Labour Party that initiated every worthwhile reform in the interests of the primary producer; and the charter of the agriculturist, to be found on the statutes of the State of Queensland, is the finest charter in the world. both legislatively and administratively. GoVER~:VIEKT ME:MBERS: Hear. hear;

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICl.~LTCRE A?\D STOCK: I assure hon. member:o.

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NovEMBER.] Validation Bill. 1263

<>pposite that the scheme will Le admini.s­tered with probity and in the interests of all concerned. According to hon. members opposite the Government are not making any contribution towards the solvency of the dairy farmers, but we arc making a material con­tribution by granting an interest-free loan for twelve months, or really fifteen months, of £130,000.

In addition, is it not obvious that as \Ye cannot get blood out ·of a stone there will he some lo;ses? The Government arc carry­ing all thos~ losses and they will, perhape, amount to a considerable sum. I do not think that the sum wili be colossal in view of the recent breaking of the drought, but whaioYer the losses under the agreement the GovPrnment are obliged to carry them. So that the real contribution that we are making is to carry the 'irr-ecoverable losses, in addition to giving an interest-free period of fifteen months. I believe that that is a generous gesture and -one that the dairy farmers of Queensland sincerely appreciate.

The requests that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition, and hon. mem­bers opposite, are not requests that I have Pf.;-sonally received from the dairy factories during recent times. Indeed, since I made ' the announcement that we were extending the interest-free period until the end of the -calendar year I have reoeived quite a numl)er of communicati.ons from dairy factories expre•-sing their satisfaction with the scheme and offering their co-operation in carrying it out.

Mr. ::\HJLLER (Fassifern) [8.33 p.m.]: As a member of the committee that entered into this arrangement with the Minister, I should like to sa v first of all that there is no desire by any of the direct-ors to refuse to honour the contract or to repudi­ate anything that was done but this is an opportunity for the Governinent to extend further help to the industry. \Ve have to remember that the majority d the men who availed themselves of the loans from the Government through the factories were in straitened circumstances. The factorv directors acted for the dairy farmers throughout Queensland.

The Minister laid emphasis on the OJn­trihution that the community made towards th" s<'heme. I concede that, but we must not forget that the industry was m a difficult position and was entitled to some help.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTL;RE A>iD STOCK: Which it got.

Mr. MULLER: We should also remember that in 1935 the aver•age price of butter on the market in Great Britain was 75s. 6d. a owt., which, after adding exchange and allowing for London charges, gave an average net price to the dairy farmers in Australia of ~d. a lb.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK: \Yhat was the price of butter on the stabil­ised market in Australia at that time?

M±: .. M'f!LLER: I was ju~t coming to that. Stab1hsatwn was therefore JUstified. In fact it was more than justified; it was imperative: Had something not been done no dairy farmers wouJ.d be left in Queensland or Aus­tralia to-day as it would have been impossible for them to carry on. Investigations made a few years ago disclosed that it cost 1s. 7d.

a lb. to produce butter. Can anyone suggest that dairy farmers could go on producing butter at 1s. 7d. a lb. and selling it at 6~d.? It is not a question whether the community was prepared to make a contribution to stabilise the industry; it is a question whether the industry was worth saving.

For the following year ended 30th June, 1936, the average price of butter arrivmg on the market in Great Britain wM !J~s. a ewt. That would return dairy farmers 3d. a lb. How would it be possible for da1ry farmers to keep going with butter at th>at price?

That period o£ low prices was followed by a drought which has continued for the past two or three years. Something had to be done to succour the industry. When we went to the Government, we were prepared to accept any assistance. We ttppreciated any as:;istancc that could be granted to us, and there is no thought of repudiation or desire to evade the contract we entered mto, but if the Gm·ernment can see their way clear to help these people who are keeping this State going, now is their opportunity to <1o so.

After all, it is really a question of relief. The Government would be quite justified in using the Unemplovment Relief Fund for the purpose. Freqi'!ently, money is made available from that fund for winter relief and Chtistmas cheer. \'Ve do not object to that. I am not one who is prepared to deny people in difficult circumstance, some aid of

' that kind, but I do want to say that nobody in Queensland has been in more difficult circumstances, especially during the last few yeara, than the dairy farmers. Therefore, any little assistance the Government could give would be justified. A great amount of money is not involved. It would not exceed £6,000, The relief asked under the amend­ment would, if granted, be a graceful gesture on the part of the Government. I feel sure it would be appreciated by the farmers, and it would be of very considerable help to the yarions dairying asf:ociations handling this money on their behalf.

The interest calculations are going to be a serious matter in our bookkeeping system. If the principles laid down in the contract are adhered to they will require more clerical assistance than hon. members realise. We are hoping that the Minister will modify these regulations and simplify the interest calcu­lations. It would be better still if the interest payment could be waived, for at least another year.

The Minister made the point that there would be no repayments for the next twelve months.

I should not like to agree that is altogether correct. Deductions are being made in a great many cases. Repayments are being made by farmers wherever it is possible to do so. There are a number of people on our books, however, who will not be able to pay interest, to say nothing of principal repayments, from their cream cheques. Some of them have borrowed as much as £300. Their stock is out of production. A number of cows suffered so severely during the dry whether that the>: will not be in production agam for some t1me. If the amendment is not accepted hardship will be done to them. f'his is not the only debt that has been mcurred by such men. In addition to this money, which was borrowed to feed their stock, assistance has in many cases been

111.r.111.uller.]

1264 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Validation Bill.

obtained from the banks to provide food and clothing for the families.

The Minister referred to the advances made in 1923. I draw his attention to the fact that the £40,000 then advanced was not advanced solely to dairy farmers, but to all classes of farmers. I feel that that assistance was quite justified.

THE SECRETARY FOR AGRIC1.7LTGRE AND STOCK : I did not suggest it was not justified. There was £78,000 made available and £48,000 is still outstanding.

Mr. MULLER: The hon. gentleman sug­ge:sted that the 11oore Government 'hould have waived that monev. I sav there was nci reason to do that. 'I am one of those who appreciate the leniency of the Moore Government .at that time and also the lenic•ncy of the present Minister in not forcing tlw collection of that money. \Vhilst we are not asking the ;yrinister to make the same concession again, we think that the interest should be waiYed in this case. After aii, the Government have not done very much for the dairy farmer. They have only advanced the money and they are not losing anything. If the f>trmers had gone to the banks they would have had to pay intereo~ on their leans, and that would have been on all-fours with \vhat has b<>en done bv the Government. Therefore. we ask that c;;,binet review the whole position and if it is at all possible waive the interest rates for at l0ast a further tweh·e montho.

Quection-" That the word proposed to be omitted (Ji·r. Jiaher's amcndmcnt)-,tand part of the question "-put, and the House divided-

AYES)

Mr. Brassington Bro\vn Bulcock Collins Conroy Cooper Cop!ey, P. K. Copley, W. J. Dash Dunstan Foley Gair Gledson lfanlon Ifanson Healy Hi! ton Hif!op

34. :1:Ir. 1-Iynes

Jesson Keogh King Larcombe M ann 1\'IcLean Mullan Pease Riordan 8n1ith Walsh Waters Williams, T. L.

TelleTs: Power Williams, H.

!\OES, 14.

Mr. Bell Brand Clayton Deacon Edwards Maher Maxwell Moo re

AYES. Mr. O"Keefe

Taylor

Mr. Nicklin Nin1mo Russell \Valker

PAIRS.

TelleTs: Muller Plunkett

NOES. Mr. Daniel

M organ

Resolved in the affirmative.

Mr. MAHER (H' est M orcton) [8.48 p.m.]: Mr. Sjwaker--

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. gentleman has already spoken.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) .[8.-1-9 p.m.]: Mr. Speaker} there is nothing new in giving assistance to farmers, but this was the first cccasion when help was afforded by this method. In the very early days aid was

[Mt·. Mullu.

given to the wheat farmers to heir them in their initial or pioneering stages. Later assistance was rendered to the dairv farmers, and it wns felt that a Labour Government during the war period repudiated their part of the deal by commandeering the farmers' butter. The dairymen thought the;, had no rizht tn iJ,, bnt the Gn,·ernment tcok over our butter and we lost £500,000.

The SECRETARY FOR AGBICTLTcRE AXD STOCK: That is not true.

Mr. \YALKER: It is perfectly true. I will ~ivc the lwn. gentleman the figures. HB knows perfectly well that it was done by taking our butter at prices below the world's parity. A bungle was made of the whole busin<'ss and the assistanee of the dairytncn 'vas relied upon to overcome tho diffieuli·,v. I refer to that casually merely t,J show that at that time the dairymen hac! a gncn1nce against tho Governrr1ent.

This scheme would commend itself to everybody concerned. The confidence reposed by the Minister in the dairy associations was '""rtainly a new departure. I am satis­fied that. with the exception perhaps of that odd man that one findf Ill everv walk of lifo. !he whole •Of the money wiil be paid

·" back, and very much quicker than son1e pe1·::-.ons irnagine. As a rnatter of fact, thn amnunt of monev involYed is small­auproximately £129,000-an amount that spreacl ewer 6.400 farmers works out at an average of only about £19 a farmer. One go,cd ,eason w;ll enable even the smallest farmer to pay back his debt, provided, of course. that his stock have not been reduced by the r>tvages of the drought. I look upon it as a small matter.

'['his Bill is brought forward with the object of rectifying ,a,n anomaly. One has -only to look at the operation of such schemes as the Paterson scheme and the dairy products equalisation scheme to see that the companies are honourabh' companies and will carry out their obligations. It will be found, too, that the majority of the fanners concer11ed will liquidate their oblig·ations to the Government, although a farmer may be found here or there who v{ill want to dodge them. The passage of this Bill will help dairY associations in the collec­tion of outstanding money.

This Bill validates certain agreements and undertakings entered into between dairy associations and the Government of Queens· land for t.he pmpc.se of providing fodder for drought relief. The Mini.-ter has given farmers the benefit of not having to pay intere.'t for twelve months, but a further period of twelve months would be very accBptable indeed. When the Bill was initi­ated we thought a little rain would be obt.ained from a few thunder storms, but since that time '"" have had a. week of continuou, rain. Instead of seeing a dry pa1·ched country bdwe,en here and Gympie one can now look upcn beautiful green fields. The rain has been a godeend, and will materially help the farmer out of the difficul­ties lw has been experirncing during the last t "n or three vears.

I should lilcc to see farmers obtain aid from the L.'nemployment Relief Fund, because I bclim'e it is better to grant relief from that fund than place the money to the credit of general revenue. I know I should be ont of order if I embarked upon a discussion of that matte'r.

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NovEMBER.] Validation Bill. 1265

Schedule 3 to the Bill sets out the various associations concerned in the drought relief, and the legalising <Jf the position must com­mend itself to every hon. meml:)er in this Hou"e. When the first agreement was entered into there was a certain amount of misunderstanding. The Press did not get the correct angle on the matter. However, the people clearly understand the position to-day. Some factories have paid as much as 50 per cent. of their indebtedness back to- the Crown, and this sho·.rs conclusively the desire on the part of the farmers to meet their obligations. Many parts of Queensland were not hit quite as severely as others by the drought. The Burnett district, in particular, had a very bad time, and apart from the shortage of rain, farmers lost cattle and the green foddors usuallv obtained for conservation rurposes were no't grown.

\Ye must be careful therefore to see that no hardship is inflicted in the administra­tion of this Bill. I am ,atisfied that the farmer.s in general c1earlv under;-;tand 1'11cir responsibiliti-es to the Cro~vn and are willing to honour them. Tho asmciations are on a sound fonting·, -doing good business, and their grasp of busine-s methods is much keener than it vas a fpw years ago, with the re,nlt that they have fewer bad debts Hun thev did previously. Naturally, Goyermnent- arc not keen on collecting money. They gene­rally put the rcsponsibilitv onto the oppos­ing party, and a provision freeing the farmers of interest for a certain period r ·r­tainlv is a great boon.

There is another factor that might well be considered by the Minister. \Ye know that many farmers lost their stock during the recent drought. Some haYe <>ndeayoured to carry on b~r borrowing stoek frorn neigh~ hours. Others have borrowed sires in an f·ndeavour to build up their herds. I should like the ::\1inister to investigate the matter with a Yiew to seeing if something cannot be done to help the farmers to restock under conditions that will protect his depart­ment. I do not desire that the farmers be asked to go to the Agricultural Bank; I am suggesting that they be giYen help hY thP department, apart altogether fron1 the bank. If a man has shown that he has b'cn a cnp­p:ier to a factory for a certain period itlHl that his liabilities are no greater than the~­were before the drought. I think the ::\Jinis­ter might be able to help him in this •vay. After a.Jl, the dair:ving· industry is wort11 approximatelY £8,000,000 or £9.000.000 a ~-ear to the State and when he takes into consideration the fact that the drouc:-ht "·as rpsponsible for a lo" of £2 .. &80,0JO tl"' ::\Iinistcr must realise that it does need c.ome aid. 'Vhen, too, one realises that dcmite that loss the amount asked of the GoYern­ment for fodder rdief purpose" wa~ only £129,000. averaging £19 a participant. one must admit that the farm<'rs haYP clo:Jo exceedingly well m battling through troublous times.

As I have said prc-..iously, under thes8 agreements the factoric•, are rc-.pow<ible for seeing that repayments arc made. In any breach of the agreement the factor~- imme­diately becomes liable to collect from tho pe1:son concerned the whole of the amount owmg. That is a protection to the Minis­ter and is quitG reasonable. It is nor likP thd wheat debt, to which the ::\Iinister

referred a few minutes ago. As that amount has been owing for about twenty years, I should not take the responsibility of collect-· ing it. I should lot that respom-.ibility pa's­to another Minister. I left tho matter to the incoming Minister, and I do not suppose that even he is brave enough to attempt to collect this money.. I suppose that it is a· sum that will eventually have to be written off. That clearly illustrates the fact that the -department is in no better position to collect the money than the dairy factories, who know the size of the herds, tho areas of the farms, and thP average cream cheque of each supplier over four, five, and even ten yea.rs. The factories are better able to decide what financial help should be extended to anv farmer. There are very few who woulrf exceed their financial abilities, but, of course, there arc sornc ·who would indulgC> in little tricks for this purpose.

The scheme is a commendable one and it has b0en of considerable benefit to all con­cerned. These suppliers will ha Ye to continup to supply cream and pigs to the factories until the debt is liquidated. That is a ~plendid a.rrangcmcnt, becau~,c a fanner -,viH~ a gric~.·ancc, real or in1aginary, cannot su~­rknl~ .. decide to supply a nnv factory ancl allow his debt to remain with the old fac tory. That is further protection for the Minister. As the Bill seeks to Yalidate an cxi~ting agremnent any arr1endn1cnt t:o. the bill v ould be out of order, but the ::\lnnster wil! be at libert)' to giYc due consideration to the circumstances of each farmer and no doubt he will keep in touch with tho dairy factories so as to keep hon. members informed of the progress of the scheme.

The prin~ of butter is now higher than it has been for rnanv vears and in Yiew of the increased number· ~f 11asturcs laid dowP the ultimate liability on the Government will be verv small. I regard the scheme a' one of the. most successful of its kind that has ever been launched, but I want the Minister to complete the good work and to design a similar one to help farmers to mcrcaso their herds and thus the wealth production of the State.

Mr. DEACON (Uunningham) [9.3 p.m.]: There are some phases of this matter that were not discussed during the consideration of the .. amendment. Hon. members opposit<> dealt with the Bill as a whole.

Mr. JEi'SON: Are you opposed to the Bill~ ;yfr. DEACO~: Certainly not, but hon.

members opposite do not seem to realise that the Bill is not a relief Bill, nor is it intended as such. It simplv makes a hard bargain for the Government. the hardest bargain th~t they possibly can. They are making sure t!Ja t they get their pound of flesh. That is the object of the Bill; nothing less. The ::\-1inister is making sure that he will be able to squeeze the last shilling or the last sixpence out of the dairy farmers through their respective as'·ociations. It would be better if the GoYernment were a little more generous.

The Minister is making a mistake in deliberately treating the industry so harshly. He did not confer any favours in advancing money to the farmers to enable them to buy fodder. He was approaehed by the leaders in the industry, the factory directors who explained that many of the dairy fa{·mers, not all of them, were in distre'8 and were not able to keep their cattle alive. It was

Mr-. Deacon.l

1266 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.} Validation Bill.

pointed out that they were 1ikely to lose heavily and it \Vas not t0 thc' ach-1ntage of the State or the factorv if thc,e men lost their cattle. Certainly,' no reasonable man "ould say that thB State had anything to gam if this section lost tlwir cattle. It "as go'cd bu_siness for the State to try to keep the cattle ahve and thus keep the industry up to as lugh a level of production as possible. This bargain entered into between the Minister and the factories leaves no loophole of escape for anyone, not to the extent of a fraction of a penny.

.Mr. JESSON: They don't expect to get ·a \1:ay with it?

Mr. DEACON: That is so. The factories represented to the Minister that a few farmers were in actual distre>s. After a long droughf that will always be found to be so. All fanners arP not proRperous. rrherc- are farmers \Vho get through a drought without any loss, except loss of income. Every dairy farmer. like the wheat· farmer and other farmers, suffered loss of income from the drought. Their income was much reduced. Hon. members opposite seem to think that when there is a small fall of rain their crops grow just the same.

:Mr. JESSON: No-one thinks that.

Mr. DEACO~: The hon. member for Kennedv seems to think so. He has made many interjections during this debate that show quite clearly that is his belief. Of course, I do not blame him, because he has had no experience. I certainly do blame the hon. member for Cook for his speech. He did not show any sympathy with the farmers who were pushed, notwithstanding that it was made quite clear to him from this side that we were only. asking the Government for some consideration for those farmers who "ere in difficulty. Ho showed no mBrcy, no considem.tion, no knowledge of the indus­try. Anybody possessing a knowledge of the industry knows that in every district during the last three years some farmers got into serious difficulties. The storekeepers could tell the hon. member that. Yet the hon. member for Cook did not show the slightest merBy in his comments, although one would expect him as a farmer to do so.

Every farmer knows that in every hard time, due to weather conditions or low prices, the income of the farmers is below a pay­able level. That is why they get into serious difficulties, and why they are ,deserving of the sympathy of every man, no matter what his business may be. Any man who gets into difficulties honestly is entitled to sympathy, and every other man who is a man gives it tq him. He feels sympathv with anybody who has suffered misfortune.

Mr. JE~SON: You did not give the relief worker much sympathy.

Mr. DEACO~: Certainly we did. Every membPr on this side of the House has sympathy with the man who is out of work.

Mr. JESSON: You gave him 10s. a day. Mr. DEACON: The hon. member mu-,t

remember that at that time food was less than half the price it is at the present time. He must also remember that wheat was at the lowest value it was for twenty odd years. It was almost unsalable. At any rate, that has nothing to do with thi, Bill. Hon. members seem very anxious to argue on anything but this agreement, which is a very hard one and does not give any

[Mr. Deacon.

opportunity for extending mercy. Yet mercy will have to be shown in some cases.

Mr. JESSOK: Mercy is being shown. Mr. DEACON: There is anoth.'r hard­

lH-:uted man even though his heart 1s well covered. Th~ hon. member for Kennr,dy can certainly say his heart is well covered, but although it has a soft covering it is a very hard heart.

I do not think hon. members haYe read the declaration that applicams had to sign when they applied for r~lief. The main part of the declaration reacls-

"3. I have no money to purcha 'e the said fodder and/or water and I haYc no bonds shares inscribed stock or deben­tures ' which could be immediately converted into money. '

"4. I have made all reasonable enquiries and I am unable to borrow the money necessary for the purchase of the said fodder and/or water.

" 5. I am unable to purcha"e the said fodder and/or water upon credit.

"6. I have no fodder and/or water or

"By the time I receive fodder ~nd(or water in consequence of my apphcatwn for same I will be in urgent need of fodder and/or water as the case may be for the purpose of feeding and/or water­ing the said dairy cattle, working horses and for pigs."

In contradistinction to the treatment meted out to the farmers bv the Government I might mention that the Government took from the Unemployment Rclid Fund, whr_ch was contributed by all the people, mcludmg the farmers, sufficient money to pay interest on the money advanced for the buil?ing of t~e Story Bridge in order that the city _'lf Ens­bane should not have to meet that mterest. That shows the differential treatment meted out by the Government to the city of Brisbane .and the farmers. ·without any .appli<;ation from the council. for the _city ?f Brisbane the whole of the mterest rs pa1rl out of ,:elief monev. Yet when it is sug­rrested that the few farmers who were ~ctually in want and in difficulty, should not have to pay interest-they repay. the loan--the reply of the Government IS a refusal.

Hon. members have heard the d<>daration read that those applying f,cr thB loan had to sign on oath. The department made inquiries as to whether the declaration_ was true and if it wa• not true the applicant could net obtain ';.ny fodder.

Mr. I'OWER: He ought to be put in gaol if it was not true.

:\fr. DEACO:'\J : Exactly, but nobody was put in' gaol, and tho>e that dcsen ed it got the fodder. Hon. members can see the posi­tion they were in. FoddBr was not supplied to eycrybody. Most of the farmers were able to provide it themselves. They Bither bought it or had it. This w:as for the benefit of the few who did not have it. Those who were in the unfortunate position of not baYing _fodder and not being able to get it obtained this relief. It was not the general farming community that did so, because most of the farmBrs provided their own.

Mr. JESSON: Where did they get the money from?

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 XovE:liBER.] Validation Bill. 1267

Mr. DEACON: They had the monev. Those affected by thi 3 Bill were those th~t were in trouble.

Mr. JERSON: The hon. member for Kanango last week said they were all starv­Ing.

Mr. DEACON : They were not all starv­ing, and the hon. member for Nanango did not say so.

Mr. JEsSON: He did.

Mr. DEACON: He did not say anything like that.

Mr. McLEAN : He said the sugar industry 'A'as being carried at the expense of the whole of Australia-a most damaging state­ment.

Mr. DEACON: He stated the position exactly as it is, but that has nothing t 0 do with this. Hon. members opposite will talk on anything but the matter before the House. They are endeavouring to dodge the iss~e because they know full well they are domg wrong and are very hard on the few farmers who have got into tronble. They could very well have treated them in the same way as they are treating the rich city of Brisbane. make them a loan interest free.

The PHEMIER: \Yho does?

:\fr. DEACON: 1'he Government do. The PRE111ER : Brisbane does not get a

loan interest free.

Mr. DK\COX: Was not the interest on the Story Bridge paid out of relief money -£40,000?

The PRE}I!ER: No. Mr. DGACO::\': \Vas it not taken out of

rl'licf money? vVas anything taken out of the monev' Do I understand the Premier to sav not a cent was taken out of relief D10l1C~'?

The PREiliiER: \Vhat Y•OU ""re saying is absolntely and entirely false.

Mr. DEACON: I understand that the Premier says that not a penny was taken out of relief money for the purpose of the Story Bridge.

The Pn-:cMIER: You said Brisbane was given it interest free.

Mr. DEACO?'i: I did not say anything of the kind.

The PREilHER: Of course. vou did. Look np "Hansa.rd" and sec wh~t you did say. You do not know what you said.

::\1r. DEACON: If the Premier bad listened to what I said he would have known that I said that £40,000 was taken out of the fund to defray interest on the Story Bridg·o and that that was a gift to the rich city of Brisbane. But when it comes to dealing with a few poor farmers the Govern­ment would not fm·go a fraction. Oh. no !

The RECRETARY FOR AGRICcLTURE AND STOCK: 1\Te withheld interest collection< for fifteen months.

The PREMIER: You arc making me think the' Bill is too liberal. Perhaps we should withdraw it?

Mr. DEACON: It is quite hopeless to !lrgue with memhers of the Government side on this point. They are unanimous in their desire and intention to force payment to the last fraction, including interest. They are going to get the money out of the farmers. 'I'hey have a very hard and binding agree-

ment to a,R.sist them towards that object. I do not know what agreement was made with the Brisbane City Council. I suppose the council gave its word of honour and will not be asked to pay the £40,000 back for the Story Bridge. At any rate it is not good business for the Government to take np the attitude they have taken up towards the man on the land. The average man. on the land can fight his own battles.

The PREMIER : I think you could beg your v, av bette1· than fight it.

Mr. DEACON: If the farmer has sons: and there is no war k for them to do they cannot go on relief work.

A GoVERN1IEKT lYlE1IBER: There are many farmers on relief to-day.

l\Ir. DEACON: No farmer can get relief: :Ylr. J ESSOX : Of course they can. ::\lr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­

ber is allowing an occasional interjection to draw him off the path.

:Y1r. DEACON: It is on account of the continual interjections from the other side o£ the HouBe. It would be more profitable to the State if the Government n,dopted a different view of the farming induotry. That indu;try is one worthy of e1·ery oossible help. It pays to help people to stick to the land and rnake a success of their operations; it pays to encourage others to take up fanning. (Government interjections.)

:Ylr. SPEAKER: Order ! ::\Ir. DEACO;\;: I will continue my speeph

vvhen the intcrjectionB have ceased. lt is CJUitc hopelecil to expect hon. members oppo­,ite to take the vieY.' that one of the best 1 hings the State can do is to encourage and foster the main industry of the State-the land. It does not matter whether the people concerned arc graziers or farmers of anJ kind. for so long as they are on the land it pay,; the State to encourage them to stay there. and to assist the few worthv of assiBt­aucp \vl.)J'n t.r•Jubles corne along." That is the best investment a State can make. There is always a return to be derived from helping the farmers of the State. The people of Queensland depend on the man on the land, and what comes off the land. Income from the land means income for the State, as hon. members opposite should know.

I suggest that in a Bill of this kind the Government might be a little more generous and give further aid to the few men affected if it is needed. After all, only a few are affected by this Bill, and the Government, by giving those few a little more generous treatment, would not only earn for themselves the gratitude of the farming community, but would also have the satisfaction of knowing that they had done some good for the State.

Question " That the Bill be now read a second time" (Jfr. Bulcock's motion)-put and passed.

Co~nnTTEE.

(Jfr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.) Clauses 1 to 8, both inclusive, as read,

agreed to. Clause 9-'' Obligations of the .lfinister in

rc.<per·t oj ad t'anccs to the other parties to un ind··nture and/or further indeMure "-

::\fr. DK\CON (Cunningham) [9.29 p.m.]: As the principle of this Bill is the ratifica­tion of agreements, I .desire to offer the sug­gestion to the Minister that he administer

M1·. Deacon.]

1268 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Validation Bill.

the Act with mercy. Many cases will be brought forward in which the strict enforce­ment of the agroement will be an act of sheer cruelty to the persons concerned, and no good will result to the .Minister. I hope that in the adminstration of the .\et the Minister will be sympathetic, ao many of the cases that will come before him will indeed be de·-erving of a little consi-deration. ·clause 9, as read, agreed to. Clauses 10 to 13, both inclusive, as read,

<~geeed to. .Schedule 1-" Indenture"-

Mr. MAHER (TV• st Jiorrton) [9.31 p.m.]: I should like to support the suggestion by tho hon. member for Cunning-ham to the J\Iini,tcr, that the factories be directed to giYe OYer~, po~sible consideration to thP farmers who became Yictims cf drought tnd had to obtain fodder relid.

Durirg his second n 1 ading :::p::>eeh tlw J\Iinister said that he had recei,-ed verv few complaints of harsh treatment, but I· han' hen· a ktter from a person who applied for <lroug],• relief that indicate• that the prill­ciplc of eapacitJ to pay ''as not taken into account by the factory that made !ho deduc­tion. The letter. which I propo o to rv~d. is typical ·of quite a number that I haYP recciYed fro1n pcrson.s \Yho haye- had dednr­tions macle from cream proceeds during the present ar. They certainly do not come within cla"s of persons who were abk to pay. Thi'. letter is from a wiJow re .icl­ing at :\LqJlehn. She says-

"' I an1 0nc~osing m,v 0rcan1 returns £, r the month Df Februar: togctlwr w-;th a rPl)Ort in yesterday'.., .. Couricr-::\1ail.' 1

I arn ,) \Yidow fift""'.T vears of ag-P, and \Yith rny son, twe~nt;T-nine yca1~~ and daughter, bYenty-threc years, \YC are working seven days a week. In the third 'il;eek of Dc-cember. when the rain C'ame fir~t, we were milking fift:,T-~ix covvs. \Ye had \\Orked harJ ~atherin'{ blady gra:os and banana stalks, ,,,-hich \YC

chaffed acnd fed to the cows in outside stalls. The sickness came, and by the third week in Februan· we had Jo.-t sixteen cows. Last Sunday night ,., e got 8 gallons of milk. Tlw rain and wind these last three days haYe brought the cows so low that to-night. \V edncsrla,·. we had little owr 3 gallons. \Ve only got half a ton of lucerne ha:.· which we mixed with bran and salt with the stuff we gathered, but I did not expect to haYe to pay for it until we had pulled up a bit. Thcfe last three days we hayc; milked morning and night. soaked to the skin. \Ve are buying this place, but the past thi·oe years we han' been able to pay only the interest, and yet we had £10 unemployment relief tax to pay."

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC L<NDS: She is probably paying a big price for the property and is not buying it from the Crown.

:\fr. l.VLUIER: l\'o doubt she bought it from a private vendor.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: A big profiteer.

Mr. MAHER: Every priYate vendor is not ncce~.sarily a profiteer. In all thc-,e transactions the old Roman dictum of caveat emptor-let the buyer beware-pre­vails. People enter into the,e trans.actions ,·,ith their eyes open, and I take Jt that

[.Mr. Deacon.

they are sufficiently responsible and sensible of the value involved not to take foolish ri,ks. They are not going to enter into contracts that are going to cause them losses. In other words, I haYe not the slightest doubt that in entering into the contract for the purchase of this land the widow took its Yalue into account.

THE SECRETARY FOR AGRIOULTDRE AND STOCK : \Yhat area is that widow on?

Mr. MAHER: I have not got the area. THE SECRETARY FOR AGRICl:LTlTRE AND STOCK:

What factory do"' she supply?

}1r. MAHER: The Caboolture Co-opera­ti,-e Association Limited. I have the return, from that factorv for February last. lt discloses that she ,:eceived £5 13s. 4d. in pay­ment for her crc'1m supplied during Febru­arv . .and that £1 was• deducted by the factory as repayment on ac~onnt of drought forlder relief. After dcductmg other charges the net amount left was £4 4s. 6d. This had to be divided among three adults, the widow, her son aged 29 years, and her daughter aged 23 ynn. The familY labour was pooled to get the. result of £4 4s .. 6d. for the month. Here 1s a case of ·" w1do·.v struggling with difficu:tiec. She lost sixte~'n cows through three-day siclnJe"'· and whde struggling to provide fodder to l~eep her herd alive she is called u:wn. notwJth?tand­ing her loss of income oyer a long perwcl.of c1wught, to 11ay £10 unemployment rehef tax. intere·t oblig-ations on her land, and other charges. That return of £4 4s. 6d. for the month represents nothing more nor less than slaverv. This \YOman protested to me against hav:ing to pay £1 as l'E;Pa:rm·8nt on account of drought fodder rehef. yet the :\Iinister says nothing harsh is being done and the factories have been directed to make deductions onlv where there is evidence of capacity to pay. ·

:\Ir. McLEAK: \Vhat is the wo:llan's name?

Mr. MAHER: I do not wish to give her name. The letter is there for anv hon. mem­ber to see, but I have no wish to record her name and thus have it broadcast through ·• Ha1 -ard." It is a bona-fide letter.

Mr. M cLEAN: It is a fake.

The' CHAIRMAN: Order !

:\Ir. J\IAHER: I object to the hon. mem­ber for Dundahcrg's saying- that the letter i, .a fake. I now place the letter on the table. I objN-t when I make a responsible statement to the Committee that the hon. member for Bundaberg should declare the letter concerned to be a fake. I ask that he be compelled to withdraw it.

:\Ir. McLE.\X: So it is a fake.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. member to withdraw the word "fake."

:VIr. :\IcLEAN: In deference to you-­

The CHAIRMAN: 1'\o deference at all. Mr. McLEAN: I withdraw.

Mr. MAHER: It is rather a pity that the hon. member for Bundaberg should ques­tion the bona fides of a letter I read to this Committee. The letter is on the table and I ask the hon. member for Bundaberg to read it.

}1r. McLEAX: I will read it later.

The CHAIRMAN : Order !

Mr. MAHER: I have at least a dozen other letters in my portfolio of a similar

Drought Relief, Etc., [9 NOVEMBER. J Validation Bill. 1269

character-from people who have written <'O!Eplaining that deductions were made from their cream cheques for drought fodder relief. In one case. although the receipts were only 19s. 5d., Ss. 6d. was deducted.

These things illustrate that hon. members Dpposite have no realisation of the priva­tions that many of our dairy farmers have undergone during the last few years. They adYocate a fair deal for the industrial '"''rker. Good luck to them. I do not dis­agree with that. but while they are so strong in their advocacv of a fair deal for the indu~trial worker: they are not prepared to extend to the farmer his due. What is inYolnrl in the proposals made by the Opposition' Merely that the GoYernment shall show eympathy to the dairy farmers that arc destitute by agreeing to forego le" than £5,000 for the ensuing year. Intere··t on £130.000, calculated at 4 per cent., means that the Government would not h0 ont of pocket last vcar b;y more than £5.000 approximately. Allowing for the £19.000 the MinistN has already collected it would be comiderably less thar~ £5,000 in into re ,t which the Opposition ha, pressed the :\linistcr to forego during the current year, I< not the destitute section of the dairv fa.rmec·s of Queensland entitled to that con­sideration? -

I do not wish to detract from what the JHinister has done or from what the Govern­ment have done. vVe are thankful for small mercies; we are thankful for the free-of­interest loan for the past twelve months and the C'demion to fifteen months foreshadowed by the Minister. Although I point out it is really not an extension of three months becau"e. bv the time the advance was a ppro.-ed last year and the money was actu­allv made a;-ailable to the farmers for the W<J'chase of drought fodder Christmas was almost reached. Broadly speaking, you might ay that the tweh·o-month period would r,ot ht' np till the end of the pre,ent ycrtr .o tlw exrension of three months reallv onlY gives effect to what was agreed to i.n th!s Hom,,, la,t year. I made the snggr<trou "hen \YL' discussed the matter on a special motion then that' a loan free of interest for tweh2 months should be given, and by the time tlw farmers got the money it was close to Christmas. To carry out what the 1\Iinistcr has foreshadowed means in effect that the farmers will get the loan for twelve months frc·o of interest. V1,' e appreciate that, but wP think that, having regard to the fact that there has been a .contmuation of the drought-it is only within the past fort­night that there has been any relief, with the exception of one big bre,;k in March last that was not supported by further rains­marw of the farmers have suffered a two years' drought and are therefore entitled to bpecial consideration.

I thought the Minister in making these agreements that are being validated and are referred to specifically in the schedule I am discussing would have made provision to continue the concession of freedom from interest for at least a further twelve months, because after all is said and done a little less than £5,000 would be involved. How rapidly Parliament agrees to vote £10J,00D each vear for Christmas cheer and winter relief "to the unemployed relief worker!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Do you object to that?

Mr. MAHER: I am not objecting to it at all, but what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Now that a period of peace and goodwill is coming round we shall be asked to vote £40.000 or £50.000 for thP Christmas cheer for intermittent relief workers, and let us consider also thP destitute dairy farmers, who have a right to expect the same generosity from Parliament.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND JNnr~TRY: A lar~e number of farmers participate in Christmas cheer.

Mr. MAHER: A very small percentage of the farmers participate in the Christmas cheer. As a matter of fact, for the past two Christmases the lot of the farmer has been extraordinarily bleak in respect of Christmas cheer. Here is an opportunity for the Government to prove their bona fides. T!w Secretary for Agriculture and Stock with great clof]nCtH'£' cndeav~·urcd to in1press upon the House and the people that this Gm·ernment stood head and shoulders above any othor Government in granting conces­sions and benefits to the farmers. Here is an opportunity for the Government to prove their bona fides.

:\Jr. RrORDAx: ·what about other sections of the community who are in difficulties, and other sectiOns of farmers?

:\Jr. i\L\HER: \Ye arc sympathetic with them. If the hon. member can mention any 5,~•ction of prirnary produrer~ \Vho are in g-rcahr difficnlty than the dairy farmers I can assure h~1n of a ver:; syi1111athctjc ear. The members of the Opposition will be preparf'd h li,,ten with the utmost sympathy ~nd g-ive p1·artical support~ to the hon. member if he moves in this Parliament that some as,,istance be gi\·en to them.

The ::VIi nister has failed on this import,.nt matter. This P\"cning he endeavoured to attach some suggestion of repudiation to hon. members .en this side, bec;wse they sought to have th<> agn!e!nent entered into by the dain factoric-··· and the Government modi­fied." After all, the dairy executives are in the pmition that they ha;-c to agree to the desires of the Government. In the past year they receiv·ed a corH:t '<;;ion, and if the ::VIinister intimates that he wants certain agreements validated and sets down the terms of such it is ,-er;· difficult for the dairy executives of the State tc> express any 'ery violent di3agreemcnt. An ol)ligation r('sts on Pari iam£'nt to giYc ::otne measure of protection to the dairy farmers. There is no guarantee that the dairy factories will always correctly interpret the intenti-ons as stated in this C'hambcr this evening by the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock. \Ve have the evidence of the l0tter that I have laid on the table that evc>n though the Minister savs it was his dc,ire that n0 accounts sho~lld be collected unless the capac­ity to pav could be demonstrated, certain factories have made such deductions. I do not know whether those deductions were n:ade at the order of the Minister or were made bv the factories concerned without ta.king into account the capacity to pay. These TnisundC'rstandings have occurred and who can say that during the next year si1nilar n1isnndcr")tandings will not occur and that dairv farmers in a destitute con­dition will be called upon to vay m""" than they can really aff-ord? I am ad v Cl­

eating this eYening that the Minister show very plainly in the directions that he gi vcs

Mr. Maher.]

1270 Drought Relief, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Validation Bill.

to the dairv factories that thev extend the greatest coi1sideration to the ·farmer who makes a plea for extra time to pay. Though the season has broken and generous rains have fallen in the dairying districts immedi­ate profit will not follow. Much leeway must be m.ade up. The credit extended by the storekeepers oFr the past two years has to be graduall:· overhauled. Interest on oYerdrafts has to be met. Overdue shire rates have to be paid, as has unemployment rdid tax for which time to pay was given. The"' things have to be made up. These arc obligati-:ns that fali on the shoulders of the dairy farmers and have to be met.

\Yill son1e of the dairy cxeeutiYeR, in tern1s of this agreement embraced in the schedule, de-mand too rapid a liquidation of the acc'"llllt: Obviom.h' the lVIinister will be anxious to get back tho money. It will qe plca,ing to him that the factories will act as capable debt collectors. The factories might be anxiouc to get rid of the debt. I am afraid that in this undue haste and d~ •,ire to exploit the in1prov('J "n.2ather condition,, somebody here or there might bo to:nptccl to rlo an injn,tire to the destitute ,cction of dairv farmers \Yho h"Yo had to :--.cck rPlirf frc;u1 t 1H• Go,~erHmcnt. I sa'-¥ th \t tbe ~Tini~trr f-hould din'ct a ver_v plai;1 and nnini~taknLl(• conJYllllJlicat.ion to tho dairy executives. H is too late now to .alter the agrcL'nlcnt. ancl ·wp ar.._• po\verl'f::s t:J make an~· amendments to the Bill. as it Yalidatc; agreements already entered upon. All \Ye can do i;; to ask the Minister to be ju,t and merciful in administration and make it clear to the dain· exerutiYeo tliat the CoYernmcnt do not dcf:lrc any injustice to Le clone and that cverv case should be judged on it-- Inerit~. f£ a n1an is in a difficult position and his 'arnings are small or he has kst part of his herd, the dairy eo m pany should take all those facts into con ;icleratlon in arriving at the deductions from his cream cheques. I feel sure that the Mini,tcr will look at the matter from that angle>, and I cornmcnd those sutrgBstions to hin1 accordingly. o

Tlw SECRETARY FOR AGRIC'ULTURE AXD STOCK IRe. n. F. \Y. Bulcock, JJarcoo) [9.51 p.m.]: I han, been interested in the eYidence submitted bv the Leader of the Opposition of the alleged hardship in one ease. May I suggc'st that perhaps the hon. member, whilst bringing the letter along in good faith, was himself galled by the statement of :m individual who set out certain conditions that are not in aecorcl­ance with facts: In other words did he 1nake inquiry concerning the int~.&rrity of the woman concerned? Did he inqmre into that letter?

:\fr. ::\JAHER: "\o.

The SECRETAHY FOR _\.GRIGCLTURE AXD STOCK: The hon. gentleman sa vs he did not inquire. ·

:\11-. :\!.mER: I have supporting invoices fro:n the Caboolture buttPr factory.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC'ULTURE AXD STOCK: The hon. gentleman has accepted the statements of the writer. He brings it to this Assembly as a statement of fact. He had two courses open to him, in rc,pect of both that letter and the other eleven letters he says he has in some nebulous unstatecl place. Those letters could haYe been inYestigated by the Leader of

[Mr. MakEr.

the Opposition, or as an alternatiYe he could have clone as ,other hon. members on both sides of this House have clone-sent them along to me for inYestigation. In every instance where I haYe received a com­plaint, where a writer has suggested that an undue deduction has been made, we have made departmental inquiry of the factory concerned, and satisfied ourselves that eithel' the right thing was done or that the factory's policy required modification. Obviously. the hon. gentleman did not do that. I am not criticising him f.or bringing the letter here, but 1 am asking : Did the hon. gentleman test the letter? He admits he did not. Now, everybody from time to time ;· ccives letters that will not bea1· iiJvestig-ation. That ic the experience, I am sure, of every hon. member in this Commit­te.·. If an hon. member brinrs a letter to this Chamber without testiri,; the facts stated in it, it is obvious he is not doing !Jimself or his client justice.

Let us bke Cabcolturc and see \Yhat is happening there. I haYe all the figure,; here in relation to all the factories. It is an obligaLicn, under in~tructions fron1 my dPpartr11ent. upon every factory nla.nage­nlctJt, to n1akc dcductionH in accordance with the capacity of the individual to ra:. The hon. member for Cooroora has admitted that that is the bc~t basis. To quote his own words, he f(LY~ that the factoric.s are more bmiliar with the conditions of the indivi· dua I than the department could possibly be, and that is true. The fartorv met its obli­gations. The figures that I have in relation to the Caboolture organisation do not disclo,e that that organisation has made any heavy levy on the persons to \Yhom fodcl0r was supplied. I will giYc the hon. member the figure·' in connection with Caboolture.

:.\1r. BRum: GiYe him the figure' for the month of February. He is quoting the month of February.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICT'LTURE AND STOCK: I will gi,·e the Lc•acler of the Opposition the whole of thd figures in relation to the Caboolture a"·ociation flom the inception of th0 scheme until 3bt October. 1937. The Cabcolture asso­ciation embraces the factories at Caboolture, Eumundi and Pomona. Two hundred and fifty suppliers \Yore assisted at a cost of £3,869 6s. 3d. The amount repaid is £1,226 18s. 7d., and the oustancling balance is £2.642 7,. 8cl. I submit that these figures do not indicate any harshness of the directorate. When all is said and done, the directorate is in the position to do the right thing. and I can assure the hon. gentle­man that if cases come under my notice-and not being clairvoyant I could not be aware of the contents of the letter that was tabled by him-wherever an allegation is made that undue hardship has been imposed. that allegation will be investigated in the future, as it has been in the past, so that any proved hardship may be removed. I give that assurance to everv hon. member of this Committee, and I can offer no fairel' sm;gestion than that.

Schedule 1, as read, agreed to. Schedules 2 to 5, both inclusive, as read,

agreed to. The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported the Bill without

amendment.

Health Bill. [9 NovEMBER.] Health Bill. 1271

THIRD READING.

~he i'\ECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE A1

:--iD STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, IJarcoo): lllOVe~

'' Tlmt the Bill be now read a third tint-e."

QLJeotion put and passed.

HEALTH BILL.

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE.

(Jlr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.)

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HO:YIE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Jthaca\ [10 p.m.]: I move-

" That it i" desirable that a Bill be introduced to consolidate and amend the laws relating to public health.

The Bill contains 179 clauses and some schedules. and while it may appear to be an Imposmg measure it must not be thought that it contains 'a great number of new pr<?visions. Its object primarily is to con­sohdate the health laws which have been amended from time to ti:ne, for the purpose of i:nproving and bringing up to d..ate the sernces rendered by the Departm<mt of Public Health. It repeals the six Acts amending the Health Act that have been passed in recent years and also repPals the Leprosy Act and the Notification of Births Act embodying them both in the Bill. The pro' VIsiOns of the Leprosv Act and the N otifica­tion of Births Act are' exactly the same in tho new Bdl, but they are brought under th<> direct administration of the Director-General of Health and Medical ServicE's.

vVe have also taken over the medica.! inspection of schools. This will undoubtedlv make for a much better service for childrer{ particula.rly in the far:-out country districts; be< 'll"C It w1ll be possible to co-ordinate the work of inspection with that of the medieal superintendents of the various hospitals in tho'e centres and thus allow t~·avelling medi· c•al In"'nectors IlltlCh mor·e tJme in places where there is no hospital service. . \Ye haw also taken over the dental inspec­

t.Jon <?f schools, and there is provision in the Bill for the control of dental inspection of schools and dental services.

An important new provision in the Rill is one tl1~t gives the Directo_r-General power to lllH"·tJgate the effect of mclustrial condi­tions upon the health of emplovees. 'l'hose provisions will be contained in an industrial hygiene seetion. It will give the Director­General power to investigate the effect of the conditions of work and the housing condibons on employees, but it gives him no rcmed1al power. He may report the result of his investigation to the department and to the Governor in Council with a view to having. action ~aken by Parliament or by Order m CounCil to remedy such conditions as may have a detrimentai effect upon the health of the employees. Frequent com­plamts have been ma?e in the clothing trade, fo~· Ir:stance, concernmg the amount of lung affcctwns caused by U1e inhalation of dust that arises from the cutting up of cheap cloth that has been filled with loading to gJ\'e the. cloth a better and. stronger appear­ance. We have had complamts from medical men at the Brisbane General Hospital about the number of g~rl~ in this industry who ha ;:e been the. VIct.Ims of lung affections, which they beheve IS clue to the conditions

under which they work. I merely ment.ion ~hat trade as one that will be very carefully mvestigatecl. It Is desirable that where conditions can be improved to protect the health of employees it should be clone.

The policy of thP Bill is identical with the existing law m far as possible, bu! it very cle'rly def-hJc:, the rc~p ctivc respon~i­bilities of ~tate and local authoritv. The local authority is primaril ,. respon~iblc for the protection of the health of the pc:1plP. The State has overriding and ~uper~'ising powers. and powers to accept full and com­plete responsibility ill ra:ks of cr:nergPnu~T· At all times a local authoritv must be regarded as the authority that ha·:, the major functiOn of proteeting the heu,lth of thn pco,Jle, becathe it is the authority that roll­trois sanitation. drainage, water supply, and so on. Therefore, the local authoritY has great responsibilities for the hc;dth Cf tlw peop1e and must be given authority to deal with conditions that necessarily arise.

The Bill re·enaets a provision 'shich we included last vear in the Health Art Amend­ment Bill, e;cept that we make it a little broader by ·declaring the health law para­n1ount to other laws \Yhen there is conflict. Quite hrquentlv the,·c is conflict betwN'Il various Acb3 of Parliament and confusion arises, but the health law which wa, enacted for the protection of the health of the pe·ople themseh·es is on the passing of this Bill to be regarded as paramount where there is a conflict. Provision is maclo that if anv Act of Parliament <leals with matters effect'ing health. this Bili must be definitely excluded from the ambit of new legislation in order to give it the necessary authority to override the health la\Y. In all other rases the health law will be paramount. That is nece"ary, as the health of the people is of paramount importance.

The Bill is planned as near as possible on the model of the Local Government Act of 1936. That is to say, it is di,-icled into parts, each part being divided into sections to make the Bill more oasil v unclorstoocl and followed by those engaged 'in local authority work. All of the proyisions of the existing laws arc preserYed with, as I have said, the addition of some new powers.

The first part is given over to the pre· liminary provisions.

The second part deals with the duties of the Government, the Director.General of Health and Medical Services and the local authority. The powers of each authority are set out definitely.

The third part deals with the preYention, notification, and treatment of disease. This is diYidecl into thirteen divisions, each deal­ing with separate diseases.

The fourth j)art deals with food, drugs, and other artJclcs, and dangerous drugs. The food and drug regulations and pure food regulatwns are all embodied in this Bill. Included in the provision of the pure food and drugs section is a provision that blankets described as wool must be of wool. I~ does seem to be stretching the interpreta­tion of this section to include wool. \Vool is an important industry in this State and it is Yery desirable in a country that produces the finest wool in the world that the people should be protected in respect of woollen goods.

::Yir. .MOORE: Only wool?

Hon. E. M. HfMlon]

1272 Health Bill. [ ASSEJ.\IBL Y.] Health BilZ.

The SECitETARy FOR HEALTH AND !10J\1E AFFAIRS: Woollen goods and boots. Boots sold as whollv of leather must be made wholly of leather. Both these matters are important from the point of view of public health, apart from the protection of the public from exploitation. The quality of boots has a-n important effect on the health of the people. People who buy a boot that will not stand the weather have their health cnda.ngcred, especially if boots

ith good sole·~ arc required in their ocrupa­tion ar:d it is found thee- are covered b·; cardboard v ith a liltle thin leather bclm,:. The: ~amc thing, \\C belieYe, should apply with woollr 1 goo:ls fer the protectio•1 of the hr :dth, to obtain the nrce:-sarv \\ ,1,rn1th '0 that people should get the goods they order. Both clothing and boots play an important part in the health of th<> people, and it is quite justifiable to include the provisions I LaYe mentioned in the health laws.

An important thing is the preservation of the supremacy of Parliament. \Yhile the old Act provided that Orders in Council ,hould be tabled in Parliament. orders of the Director~Gcncral and so on were not. \\~t' now pro\ide that all orders i:::sued rnust be tabled in Parliament, and thus vrcaervc the authority of Parliament over the depart­ment. The Health Department is given Yery great pO\'i.'er~. It is given pov:ers to din et local autho. ities to do certain things. If the Director-Gcncr"l thinks it neccssarv hc· may, \Yith the approval of the Ministc1:, instruct a local authority to carry out new work, and so on. It is right these powers should be subject to the approval of Par­liament, so provision is made that such orders must be tabled in Parliament and Parliament •Yill have the right to revoke them. The health law is a delegation by Parliament to various subordinate authorities of the function of caring for the health of the people. The Minister is charged with the administration of the health law. and as a constitutional part of the Gm,erninent is, of course, responsible to Parliament. The Go,-ernor in Council is charged with the exercise of the supreme power.0 and authori­ties of the Exc,cutive of the State. and he exercises these powers and authoritie·. either b,- way of Proclamation or Order in CounciL The Director-General of Health and Medical Sen-ices is, subject to the Minister, charged with a.dvrsory and supervi~ory functiollB. aud has vested in him wide powers and authorities to make regulations and recom­mendations. There arc als.o vested in him overriding power.'j in the case of em·ergency or of default of the local authority.

Regulations made by the Dir.ector-General are subject to the approval of the Governor in Council. The overriding powers are e;cercised b:;~ the Director-General by order directed to the local authority. The order of the Director-General is subject to con­firmation by the Minister. Everv proclama­tion, Order in Council, and regulation, and <'Yery order made bv the Director-General and :Vlinistcr to the local authoritv must Le laid J:oo~ore Parliament, to which is resencd the pov\er of disallowance. and so the supremacy of Parliament is maintained. Hitherto regulations onlv had to be laid before Parliament. "

Ti1e Director-Gr-neral is given wide powers to make such orders, but they are oubJ~ct to appeal. Obviously, although we find rt necessary to give the Director-Genera]

[Hon. E. M.Hanlon.

very wide powers, and even although those powers are subject to the approval of the Minister, at the same time it is right for the protection of the local authority-and we are seeking in our recently passed Local Government Act to give greater and wider powers of self-government-to have an appeal by the local authority from the order of the Director-General. That appeal is to thP GoYf'rnor in Council. Upon re< eiving ::,uch an appeal, the Governor :in CounC'il n1u::-.t order an inquiry, eo the local authority is amply protected. It is not merely the matte-r of the local authority's appealing to the :vlinieter who has agreed already to th0 order given by the Director-General, but a memorial to the Governor in Council carries with it the necce,ity of a proper inquiry by the Governor in Council, who can decide on the evidence whether the order of the Director-General or the Minister is justified. It is necessary that we should not allow unnecessary interference with local .r:overning- bodies in their own functions. That is definitely the policy laid down under the Local Government Act. That is definitely the policy of the Govcrnm0nt, to give as wide powers as possible to local governing bodies in their own domain and their purely domestic affairs. Consequently, we feel it is necessary in this Bill to presene that freedom of the local authority as far as po,,ible by providing a method of "ppeal­ing against the decision of the Director­General, which may be an arbitrary decision and may not gin" full consideration to the local needs and local conditions.

As a protection exish for a local authority to appeal againot an order of the Directo,:­Geneml. so there is contained in th" Bill a proY3~ion whirh, although it has cxif'tcd since 1900, is net '.•ry often availed of. evidently owing to ignorance of its exist­ence. I refer to the right of appeal b0- any per,on aga1mt an order of a local authority. Any citizen has the right of appeal ag·ainst an order made by a loca-l authority. and the Dire~tor-Gcneral of Health and Medical Service' or any person affected by any of the powers contnined in the Act has the right of appeal to a superior body.

The provision as regards private l1ospitals are the mmc as were placed in the Act ]a,t year. The sanitary provisions arc extended to give the Director-General power bv order -of course, subjoct to appeal-to la~~ down the requirements for sanitary conveniences and services that must be provided at sea· s1de resorts and camping grounds. '\Vithin the last couple of years public (·ampin~f grounds have been provided for touring motorist.', out,ide the larger cities. Some are conducted by private <>nterprise and others by local authorities. the great majority by priYate persons. The Director-General ha:; power to lay down conditions of sanitary -;ervice, drainage, and so on that must be provided in such places, if he is dissatisfie<l w1th what the local governing body has done.

Provisions relating to lead paint have been extended. One of the weaknesses of the Act was that whereas the applicatioH of lead paint to external walls in certain positions within the reach of children was forbidden by law, no power was given for mepectors to take samples. \,Ye now makn proYision giving power to health inspector' to enter premises and take samples of paint for analysis.

Health Bill. [9 NovEMBEJ:>.] H~alth Bill. 1273

Another protection entirely overlooked Jlreviously w:1s the prohibition against the llse of lead paint on roofs. Whereas an endea votu was made to protect children from contamination by lead paint on external walls the use of it on roofs-and often the water running off the roof forms the drink­ing surply of the household-was overlooked. The Bill entirely prohibits the application of lead paint to roofs.

The ,p are the chief provisions of the Bill, which although a lengthy document is mostly a re-cnaetnlent of exi.-;ting la\VS. I have out­lined the new provisions. The law will be better understood and more easily inter­preted_ both by the department, the local authonty, and the people, and consequentl_v a better service will be rendered to the peopk. Hon. members will have ample tim•• to go through it. (Opposition laughter.) I have outlined the new provisions and these are the onl_v matters that could worry hon. members opposite. I am sure it is not beyond the capacity of any intelligent per­fOn to understand the Bill easily. It is Bet out in excellent language .and can be understood. I am sure that hon. members will have no trouble in understanding the new provisions. They are few and not extenoive. The gteator part of the Bill is merely a consolidation of the Acts passed in successive years, in a form that can be more readily understood.

Yl:r. :'c!OORE (Aubign.y) f10.20 p.m.l: Cer­tainly it is desirable that a comprehensive health measure should be introduced, but it is not at all desirable that a Bill of this nature should be introduced at this time without giving hon. mc,mbers an opportunity to go through it. H is all very well for the Minister to say that anybody with" ordinary intelligence can understand it. This is not the only Bill we have got to consider. This one is a fairly long one, containing, as it does. 179 clauses. Those clauses take some readin!!. and I do not suppose tho new clauses are distinguished. That means a certain amount of comparison with the old Act has to be made. The Minister stated that there are seYE'ral new clauses in the Bill and he gave an outline of some. These may have far-reaching effects.

As an instq,nce, h0 mentioned the Director­General's power to report on the health of employees. their conditions of labour, and h0ming conditions. It will be gathered that that is a fairly extensive proposal. The Factories and Shops Act has a verv definite be a ring on housing and industrial conditions.

ThP Minister also said that wherever the Health Act comes into conflict with any other Act the Health Act is to be paramount. Difficulties may arise where duplication occurs. \Ve have a special Act of Parliament dealing with shops and factories and under it all sorts of conditions have to be observed. The Director-General might make a different set of conditions, but as we understand from the ;\1inister, the Health Act will be para­mount. The industrial conditions of people working in Queensland are fairly drastic now. Double control might be exercised-both bodies in control might give certain ordE'rs. The Minister says the supremacy of Parlia­ment is to be preserved. That statement sounds all verv well. If orders are issuea they have to be obeyed within a certain time, and it might happen that Parliament does not sit for another six months. It might be that the damage has been done by the

time Parliament meets and has the oppor­tunity of expressing an opinion upon the matter.

The Minister also said that local authori­ties were responsible for the health of the people. The Department of Public Health has an overriding power in erncrgency. That oYcrriding power is one that -is _go-ing tn have a big bearing on local authority work. A local authority. for instance, might have a definite point of view, and it might either by itself or combined with other local authori­tie,, realise the necessitv of having a public health officer appointed" on the recommenda­tion of the Department of Public Health. That officer cannot be removed from office by the local authority concerned unless it first obtains the consent of the department. \Ve find, in the next breath, as it were, that thP dPnartment has an overridinrr DOWPl' ovPr

a local authority and may order all sorts of work to be carried out, the expense of which must be borne by the local authority concerned. That is another part of the Bill that needs careful consideration.

The part of the Bill referring to spirits and drugs is, of couroe, an old section of the Act. It has been in existence for a long time and has been more or less enforced. but this Bill makes provisi·on for other matters, such as woollen goods and boots. It provides that if people pay for woollen goods they must get woollen goods. I am quite agreeable to that proposal. and it is essential that if a person buys an article that is branded " pure wool " it shall be pure wool. I think that the majoritv of such goods are pure woollen goods. There may be a few articles that contain a certain percentage of cotton or silk, but I do not think there are many.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH A>rD Ho~rE AFFAIRS: The Government analvst has estab­lished quite a. number of cases:

Mr. ::\!IOORE : I quite agree that a person should get pure woollen goods if he pays for them, and I am in agreement with the provision regarding boots.

Then the Bill contains a power to make the local authorities do certain things and carrv out certain works. I suppose that is in connection with Cf'rtain definite lwalth matters, because the overriding power, I suppose, is for caRes of emergency such a~ inoculation or other preventive measures that may be essential at the time. This power to order the local authorities to do certain things and carry out certam works is a very wide one, and there is Just the question whether it will throw an ~deled responsibility upon the ratepayers 'Y'thout the consent of the elected representatives of any area concerned. The principle of local government that has been set up time after time is that representatrves are elected m particular areas by the adult franchise and a.re given power to carry out certain clutteR as 'et out in the Local Go,·ernment Act. 1'\ow we find that specific provision is to be contained in the Health Act giving power to order a local authority to do certain things and carry out certai.n works. There is provision also that where the Health Act comes into conflict with the Local Govern­ment Act the Health Act is to be paramount.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD HoM~ AFFAIRS: There will be no conflict there.

Mr. MOORE : There may not be. but there must be some reason for putting thoce

M1·. Moore.]

1274 Health Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Health Bill.

words m the Bill. It ma.y come m conflict with the Factories and Shops Act or the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act. because those Acts deal with matters of health such as lead poisoning. Now we have another overri-ding authority that may completely change the orders tha.t have been iosued under the Industrial Conciliation, and Arbitration Act. Orders bv the Director­General may take their placE'. There may be duplication, and that should not be ,o. If the Health Ad is to be supreme, it should take the full responsibility. \Ve should not have two authorities trying to administer remedies for the sa.me ills. It. appears to me that this provision will lead to a certain amount of confusion.

The Director-General is giYen wide powero to make order;;. Of course. he had those powers prn·ious]y, but nov. it appears that the orders will haYc to be laid upon the table of the House within fourteen days of the time thcv are made. It will be alf the better, because we shall haYe an opportunity of seeing them.

Then there is the right of an appeal to th0 Director-General fr.:Jm an order by a local authoritv. The local authority may order a person to do a certain thing in the interests of public health. In the first place, it may be done on the recommenda­tion of the health officer in the area, but he is really an employee o·f the department, although paid by the local authol'lty. I do not know whether there is any advantage in that right of appeal. The Director­General would have some kno\vledge of the health officer concerned and would take due ccgnisance of the orders given by him. No doubt, he would not give them unless they were reasonable and necossarv. There appears to hE> a good deal of eyewash in that part of the Bill.

Then there is the right of appeal to the GoYernor in Council from orders given by the Director-General t~. the local authority. The ordN is submitted to the Minister by the Dircctor-G en oral and, ac.cording to the l\1inister, it is really a joint order by the ::\Iinistc'r and the Director-General. There is the right of appeal by the local auLhority to the Gowrnor in Council, but I doul;lt very much "hether there is much value in that because the l\1:inister will have the oppor­tunity of giving his rt<L80ns for it.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HoME AFFAIRS: An inquiry must be held.

l\1r. MOO RE: B:" the health inspector in the area 1 I do not believe that that power will be used on manv occasions. 'There wi]] onlv be rare occasion~ when the local author­ity ·will be given an order by the Director­GcnPral and an inquiry will be held. It vcould ha Vc to be under drastic conditions that the local authoritv would feel that a mistake had been made ·and it would petition the GoYcrnor in Council to have an investi­gation. It l·ool<s well in the Bill, bnt I think it will only Le used in extreme cases.

Thes., are really the new parts of the Bill, but three of them require a certain amount of scrutinv. One is that the Director-General shall report upon the effect of industrial and housing conditions upon the health of the empl.ovees. That mav lead to a very difficult sit{lation and to • great expense in carrying out the work. A sug· gestion that the housing is unsuitable for

[Mr'. Moore.

employees may lead to a good deal of unemployment and the closing dcwn of bnsine,scs. Vi' c should have to scrutinise very carefully the conditions under \\' hich such reports may be made.

As to the rest of the Bill we shall have to wait until we "' e it. I hope tha.t it will not be qrought on first thing in the morning.

The PRE1!IER: I give you that assurance.

Mr. MOORE: We want to haYe time t'} consider the Bill, especially as otlwr Bills are to be consider9d also.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD HmrE AFFAIRS : There is not a great deal that is new.

Mr. :MOORE: We shall have to rcacl the Bill to see what is new.

The PnnnER : I will gi YC "·ou a. marked Bill, if you like.

Mr. MOORE: That would not be a bad idea at all.

The PRc1IIER: Marked in the \Ya v that thev used to be in the old Legi:slative Cmincil.

Mr. MOORE: That is quite .a good wav. There is a good deal to be said in fa vonr of it. It certainly tends to a more intelli­gent and effective discussion of the Bill. It enables us to seo quite clearly and exactly \vhat amendments are being made. It is quite a good principle to adopt.

I will reserve mY further remarks until I have had an opportunity of reading the Bill.

Mr. Nil\fMO (Oxley) [10.36 p.m.]: This is a fairly large Bill to be brought down at this late hour. I wish to lodge a protest against that procedure. Look at the state of the Committee. Although there are forty­six members sitting behind the Government there are only abont twelve prcsPnt. That shows \V8 are not carrying on our busine~~ in a. democratic v. ay. This is a. Yery important Bill and it is only right that it should be brought down at a time when hon. members can go verv fully into it in order to see that none of its prO\·isions are detri­mental to the health of the people.

\Ye should be a healthy community, as we seem to be legislating on health matters all the time. Yet we ha.ve just a,c many sick people as ever. Things arc being done in the city to-day that are a disgrace. Only the other day I fonnd a man camping along­side one of the main streets, yet the council had no authoritv to remove him. At the present moment ·a merry-go-round, together with a.ll the attendant sideshows. is operating in one of our thickly populated suburbs. It attracts an aggregation of people for which no sanitary conveniences are provided. '

Mr. G.uR: Did you say that the nurses stole the patients' fruit?

Mr. 2\TYIMO: That interjection is unti·u and I ask that it be withdrawn.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AXD HOOJE AFFAIRS: Did you say the•nurses at Goodna had to sleep on the floor?

Mr. ::\"IMMO : I said they had to sleep on mattresses on the floor. That is quite clear. Mr. Hanson, I ask that the hon. member for South Brisbane be compelled to withdraw the statement tha.t I said the nurses at the Brisbane General Hospital stole the fruit that was brought in to the patients.

Question. [l 0 NOVEMBER.]

The CHAIRl\L\N: Order! I ask the hon. member for South Brisbane to withdraw the statement that the hon. member for Oxlcy regards as offensive.

Mr. GAIR: I am compelled by th0 Stand­ing Orckn to withdraw, but the Standing Order>' cannot pre,·cnt me from thinking it, and I believe it to be true.

Ylr. ::\I:\fMO : So far as I can see this BilL if administered properly, will do good. My sole reason in rising is to protest at the action of the Government in bringing down legislation at this late hour and rushing it through. IY e wasted many days at the beginning of the oession. Frequently the House adjourned early and yet here we ha Ye--

The CHAIR MA"' : Order ! The hon. member must confine his attention to the business before the Committee.

Mr. :'\IMMO: I am confining my atten­tion to this Bill. The Government have no right to introduce such an important mea­sure at this late hour as it give.,, hon. members no opportunity of analysing it to see what it contains, let alone discuss it. We prohably .,hall not see the Bill till to-morrow and the House is supposed to adiourn on Thursday. I hope the Premier will see that legislation of this nature ts not ru,hed through the House.

Question-" That the resolution (.l1r. Hanla"·" motion) be agreed to "-]lut and passed.

The House resumed.

The CHAIRo!AN reported that the Committee had come to a resolution.

Re,olution agreed to.

FIRST READING. The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND

HO:\IE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. l\1. Hanlon, lthaca! presented the Bill, and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first. tirnc."

Que,tion put and pa"ed.

Seco11d reading of the Bill made an Order of the Da.y for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at 10.42 p.m.

Evidence, Etc., Bill. 1275