Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 21 AUGUST 1918

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1598 Questions. [ASEEl\IBLY.] Fish and Oyst·,r, Et:"., Bill.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

\VEDKESDW, 21 Al;Gc;S'r, 1918.

The SPEAKER (Hon. \V. McOormack, Cairns) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clo.k.

QUESTIOKS. DISTRIBL"TIOCI OF KERO~EKE.

Mr. BRENNAN (ToMcoomba) .asked the Chief Secretary-

" 1. \Vhat arrangements have the Federal authoritie' instituted for the dis­tribution of kerosene "

" 2. Is it a fact that in order to defeat the price-fixing of kerosene instituted by the F<'derfll Government some store­keepers in Queensland insist on cus­tomers, \Yhen purchasing ke-rn~ene, ·pur­chasing some otlwr commoditv so as to defeat the intention of such Jlrice-fixing b•,- increasing their profits on the other C.JlTID\Odity?

"3. Has 0. C. Flemmich, of Too­woomba, retired squatter, for his own private usP, purchas·'d within the past thme WPPks thirty C·ISC··> of kProsene. whiJ,t storekeepers in Toowoomba are depldr d of sto. b of kerosene. and the workers arc compelled to me fat hmps ?"

The PRE:\.1IER (Hon. T. J. Ryan, Barcoo) replied-

" 1 to 3. I shall have inquiries made into the matter."

I.W.W. AGJTATIOX.

Mr. PETRIE (Toomlnd). in the absence of Mr. Cor::-•r. asked the Premier-

" 1. Is he .or anv other member of the Gon~rnment an 'official of the InduP­trial Trade "Gnion Congrf'Ss which met in Bri ·hane la o.t week?

" 2. Is he awn re that the Congress adopted an inclu,trial constitution which was rkscribE'd during the discussion bv mem.bers "'pportinu- it a' the ' constit~­tion of the I."W.W.'?

" 3. Has his attention been called to a cable in yesterday's papers which states that the general secretary of the I.W.W. in. the United States and lOO other memb0rs have been found guilh- of conspiring to disrupt the nation's ·war programme, thereby facing a maximum penalty of twenty-seven years' imprison­ment and a fine of £2,000 each; also is he aware that in JunE', 1917, the United States Government definitelv proved that the agitation of the I.W.\V. was 'part of the propagand". of Germany'?"

The PREMIER replied­" 1. No. "2. No. "3. No."

PRESS CE;)!SORSHIP.

Mr. COLLIXS (Bowen) asked the Chief Secretary-

" 1. Has his attention been drawn to the paragraph in the daily Press on the occasion of Lord Xorthcliffe entertaining the visiting pressmen in England, when Mr. Campbell Jones, of the Sydney

'Sun,' alluding to Lord Northcliffe's condemnation of the censorship, de­chrcJ :-'That the CensM in England was a iuvenile comnared to the Aus-tralian Censor' ? '

" 2. In \ iew of the above declaration by such a leading· Australian pre,,m.an. will he draw the attention of the Federal Government. and also the individual who acts as Censor in Queensland, to Mr. Campbell J onec,'s statement. and suggest that thev u~o mm~e common sr-nse in connectio'n with the censorship?"

The PREMIER replied­" 1. Ye:::-. "2. The matter \Yill be considered."

PAY}IEK1' OF ARBERATIOK COl:RT FEES.

Mr. PETRIE. in the ab~ence of Mr. Moore, asked the Assistant ~1inister for Justice-

" \Yhat amount of fees has been paid to each of the followins- by the Govern­ment during the past twelve months in res1wrt to Arbitration Court proceed­ings or anv othr·r matters-(a) \V. J. Dunstan, Queensland branch secretary of the Aushulian \Vorkers' Union; (b) ~Tames Lough, metropolitan organiser, :\ustralian V\'orkers' Union; (c) .J. Hior­dan, Queen>land br ,nch prc·sident of the Australian vYorkers' Union?"

Hox.• W. ="· GTLLIES (Facham) replied­" I would suggc ;t that the hon. gentle­

man addrcs• this cmestion to the Hon. the Secretary for P1,1blic \Vorb."

PosrTrox OF MR. !HOROXEY.

1\Ir. PETRIE. in the alosE'nCE' of Mr. Moore, asked the Sccretar•·· for Railways-

" 1. Is the ::\fr. 1\Ioroney who declared at th" Trade Union Congress on 16th August last that the ' I.W.\Y. form of organisation was an ideal form of oriranisation,' and that the ' I. \V. \V. was a hundred vcars ahead of the unions' (vide official' report in ' Dailv Standard,' 19th Auu-nst), an organiser of the Queens­land Raikav Union?

" 2. If so,. in view of the fact that the eentrRl official organ of I.W.V\7., 'The Industrial \Vcn·k0r,' declares that the ' one grPat weapon of the I.\V.\V. is sabotage,' will he allow Mr. Moroney to continue to visit workshops and railway stations belonging to the State?"

The SJWRE:TARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. ,J. A. Fihelly, Paddington) replied-

" 1 and 2. Xo."

PAPER.

The following paper was laid on the tabk :-

Appendice- to Mr. Austin's report on the South Brisbane Gas Company.

FISH AND OYSTER ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

On the motion of the TREASURER, this Bill was read a third time, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council for their concurrenc!J by message in the usual form.

State Ente;·prisPs Bill. L2l AUGUST.] State •Ent< rprisn Bill. 1599

STATE ENTERPRISES BILL.

RESU~IPT!ON OF Co~nriTTEE.

(Jir. B' rim m, "llaree, in the chair.)

On c!Huse 11-" Power to vest lands in the :Jfinister"-

Mr. JdACARTNEY: The first part of the clause stated that-

" The Governor in Council may at any time. by Order in Council, vest in fee simple in the Minister any Crown land to be us<:>d for the purposes of the busi­ncsg of the :Minister."

He a; ked the Minister, in view of the policy of the Government in respect to leasehold tenure, "·hat nE'cessity there was for this po"·er? It was not passing over to the Min­ister any freehold land which might be resumed for the moment, it was the vesting in fee-simple of Crown land. He under· stood it \vas the policy 0f the Government not to gi,·e frf'ehold.

The PRDIIER : We might purchase a shop. Mr. ::VlAOART~EY: But this was Crown

land. and not land which the Government might resmne. \Yhy should the Minister not be sati,fied with perpetual lease? On the Oppo•,ition bide of the House there was prob.:bly no objection to giving the freehold, but thev did not understand the Government. in viev: of its dcdared policy of perpetual lease, taking "uch action. He would like the hon. genth_·Inan to explain.

The PREMIER: There was no need of explanation. The leader of the Opposition must understand that the fee-simple of the land '""" Ycsted in the Crown all the time. This v. as simply fixiLg it in some particnlar indiY.:clual. He could not understand what objedion the hon. member could haYe to this clause, or how he could think it was in any \l'aY a coutravention of the policy of the Goyrmment, It was onlv one of the hon. member's conundrurr,s. (Laughter.)

Clause put and pacsed. On clause 12-" Exemption from rating"­

Mr. ::\lOORE moved the deletion on line 38, after the word "shall," of. the word "not.'' It was only fair that where the Crown came into competition with private indh·iduals in business they should pay rates. The Home Secretary would agree with him, because the other day the Hon. J. D. Fitz­Gerald, of ::\Jew South Wales, when speaking at the LoFal Authorities' Conference, an­nounced the fact that in New South Wales the Government paid rates not only on lands used for business purposes, but even on rail­wayS' when the construction was finished.

The HmiE SECRETARY: I did not say I agreed with him, though.

Mr. ::\IOORE took it that the Home Secre­tary agreed with the: great applause which greeted the speech of the Minister from New i::louth Wales. As head of the local authori­ties in Queensland he knew that the Home Secretary thought the Government should co-operate with them in every possible way for the benefit of the public. He would like to eee the Home Secretary put up a fight for the local authorities to get the revenue to which they were entitled. When the Government entered into competition with priyate individuals they should have exactly the same tr0atment as. the people they were competing with. Surely it was a well­recognised fact that the local authorities

were working in the public interests. The Governnwnt were also supposed to do the same thing, and it was only reasonable there­fore that they should co·opcratc with the local r,uthorities for the benefit of the public. At the present time the Government were extending their enterprises all over the place, and it ,,·as going to inflict a hardship on the peopi0 if they were compelled to con­tribute more ra tcs for the upkeep of the roads of the State. The Commonwealth re­cognised their liability, and paid rates on the properties mmed by the Commonwealth Bank, and it was only reasonable that the Government should also pay rates on their propertie:;. \Yhy should the Government. be put on a pedestal when they were competmg with prh ate enterprise? \Yhen the State stations we're fir.st started the idea that the Crown would not pay rates on those station properties was absolutely scouted, and it was only after question·' began to be directly asked that the :\1inister for Lands at that time took sh<'lter under a dathe in the Act exempting Crown lands from local authority rates. If the Shte must have certain privi­le:>;cs in trHling or else be a failure, it did not sa;~· much for State enterprise. \Nhen the State ·went in for industrial enterprises the Gon'rnrnent should cor,tribute their fair 'hare tow,rcls the upkeep of the roads. \V as it a fair thing that the Government should be exempt from pa~·ing their just dues when they "'f'l'C going iu for enterprises all over the State?

Mr. BEBBIKGTON (Druyton): lit> was sure, when the Premier saw the inj tistice the clause would do to cert.ain local authorities, he would see his waY clenr to accopt the amendment. Tbc more Strcte enterprise, that were started in a shire or citv the more that particular shire or city ·would be penalised. Take as an instance the State '<11' mill. The former own us of that pro­perty paid £86 a year in rate,, while the Stde paid nothing. The uthE'r ratepa0'ers had to make up that Amount. ~ot only had they to make up thc loss of £9,000 whwh the State h;,d made on the business, but they .had ;,]so to ::nake up the rates and taxes. The Premier would remember that en a cer­tain st:1tion when purehased there was over £100 owing in rates. Everyone kne:v that when a person purcha~rd a propert:y he was liable for the unpaid rat0s.

Mr. BRENX.\X : He is not. You are wrong

Mr. BEBBINGTO:\': Did the hon. mem­ber, as a lawyer, tell him that if he bought a property he was not rl'sponsiblc for the unpaid rates? The hon. member ousrht to be ashctmed of makin'l' such a statement in the House. Snrely, he would never stnnd up and say he was a lawyer ap:ain. The smalle •t ehild in the street knew it. Every. one knew that the shire council and the State had a claim on \he land.

Mr. BRENNAN: Yes, on the land.

Mr. land?

~Tr. land.

BEBBINGT0"-1: Who o'>n1ed the

BRENKAN: The per,,on who sold the (Opposition laughter.)

Mr. BEBBIKGTON: The person who sold owns the land. (Renewed laughter.) Unon his wor·d, fancy a stat(!ment like that ! When the Government purchased tha~ shtion ther,~ was over £100 owing in rates. If it had been a private purchaser he would have inquired

Mr. Bebbington.]

1600 State Enterprises Bill. [AS::ElVIBLY.] State E:.terprises Bill.

how muoh was owing- in rate~. and he would have deducted the amount froin the purchase price and paid it over to the shire couucil; but the Government made no inquiries as to what was owing. The f<1ct was they did not care whether the rates were paid or not. They simply took over the pJ.'operty, and when the shire council ma·de application for the £100 owing the Government said they were not responsible. The consequence was that the shire council, which was a very poor one, had to Io ,e that £100 b,wk l'ate·,,, und they had to lose over £100 a year in regard to that one property. That was not a fair thing. T,here were other instances of a similar nature, snch as the State butchers' shops. It was all verv well when fne State o;vned land for public· purpo•-es, such as hos­pltals or State farms, which were used for educational purposes, for them to be exempt from paying rates, but when thev were com­peting in business enterprises they should not only pay the local authorities rate•, but they should also pay the income tax. They ,\·onld then see what the State was losing or what the State was making !w tho'e enter­prise~. The former owners of Ceeil Plains--

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Mr. BEBBINGTON : He wanted to show

the taxes thDy paid. That firm paid £16,000 a vear in taxe"'.

The CHAII\.M.\N: Order ! Th<e hon. member is referring to the ir·eome tax.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: He must confess that he did not know the difference. (Govern­ment laughter.)

Mr. BREN~AN; Like the rates. Mr. BEBBINGTON: He knew they paid

£16,000 a year in hx<", but he was not going to say whether it w1s land tux or shire c'?und! rates. The S•ate was making a d1rect loss of £16,000 a year on tnat one e<;tate. They also paid £9,000 a vc:u ;;ork­ing expen~es, and the Govern!ncnt" Wl:re onlv pa.ying about £100. The Premier woulrl a•dmit that to put the State entcrrrises on a fair bn~iness footing to compete with pl"iYate enterpriso they slwnld ray iand tax. income tax, and shire council rates exactlv the same as a private owner would do, and then they would know what profit or loss the country was making on t:!Jose transactions.

Mr. BRENNAN (Toowoomba); The hon. member for Drayton had induiged in a lot of fesc~nnine acobatics. They all knew very well that land was primarily liable for rates. Any child knew that, and they abo knew that if he sold land on whi<Jh rates were owing that the purchaser h8d the right to recover from him ¥hose rates, and he deducted the amount ant of the flurchaoe n,oney. When he told that tD the hon ntemoer for Drayton the hon. mentber seemed to takB a blue fit. The clause should be passed as printed, because, as the Premirc<r had pointed out, at un:v time they mig-ht ,,v::t::lt to buy a '•ntelr''' '" .J~on \VHh thfl f00 .gln1nl0_ and if th<'v sm;gested a n0rnctua! le•w'' to the owl'er of the land hf' would g-et just as wilrl as the hon. member for Drayton.

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor\: He rose to sup­port the amendment. which was a reason­able and just one. His experience, so far as local authorities were eoncPrned, w-as that t,here was not the sympathy shown towards the local authoritie.s bv the Home Secretarv's Departm<mt that thcr"e should be, especi~lly when one came to consider that the locn 1 authorities were simply a huge unpaid

[Mr. Bebbington.

Government dep2.rtment carrying out certain Government work. rhey had practically no executive power whatever, and were only there as local authority men to administer an Act of Parliament, and they were surpo;.ed to levy certain rates to carry out certain wades. He certainly thought wlH'n the Go­vernment took on what were practically trad­ing enterprises that they should be prepared to pay all the taxes which an ordinary indi­vidual had to pay in connection with similar enterprises. In the Bill the Govern.nertt were asking for certain preferences. ·wl-• ,t justifi­Ct tion could there be for such prpferences? .... lnyone ·who kne'v anything at all Hbout. local aut.horities knew it was a thnnkless job for· any man. A local authority man could not c>atC'h his train in the 1norning l1eca use sc.rne­body wanted to know why the gutter had not been cleaned out, or why the street had not been repaired. The Government was not playing the game, and i11 connection with any propertic' for the purpose of carrving out industrial enterprises they should be prepared to shoulder the full responsibiliti<'s towards the local authorities, !md P"Y all the rates that other people had to pay

Mr. CORSER: The amendment wtH the most reasonable one that had been moved in the Bill. Anvone interesLed in local authori­ties at tl,e J~Jresent time wonltl know that right throughout the country distrids, at any rate, the local authorities were in a. Yery bad wa1'. T,hey got no assist~nce from the ~o­vernment at all. 'l'axat10n had been m­creased ir.. eveY"7 dire<;tion, and the work in connection with the upkeep of the roads was costing so much that the taxation had become a very serious proposition. Now the State proposed to increaoP their i>1dustrial ente "­prises. There were members on the Govern­ment benches who hoped the day was not far distant w,hen most of the Pnterprises would be Shte enterpr·ises When thr,t time arrived, how were they go!ng to provide revenue for the upkeep of then roads? Hon. members opposite claimed that they were g<'tting nearer and nearer to the objective for which thcv wf're worki>1g. They c:aimed thev were· going to extend their butchers'

· shops ri!')ttt throug-hont Quecns-[4 p.m.] land. Were those butchers' shops

to have the convenience of roads and other facilities which were made avail­able bv the taxation of the local residems? Were stock roads to be kept free of w~eds und onen to enable ·stock to travel to and from State stations that Wf're being estab­lished in everv dir<'c~ion? \Vas it a fair thing that th<>i~ ron•ds should he k•·nt traffic­able- for timber wagom for t.hPir State saw­mills at tli.e expense of thE' othPr fellow?

Mr. FOLEY: Who is " the other fello9

w"?

M1~. I'JORSER : He was the man whom th~v were taxing all the time-the taxpayer cf Que~'ns!and. With the eqtablishment of cann<'ries. of batteri0' and hot<>ls. whv stould not the State nay for the fa<>ilitie' it need? Prohablv thev had a chemist's ",hop at Babinda. That ·man was bxed. He provided commodities that were absolutely n(;cps~arv. and vet they found the Shte "pub" · free of ta'<ation to the l<,cal authoritv. The amendnwnt was a good pro­position; and it was only right thnt pvery r10rtion of a local area should contribute to thr maintenance and keeping clean of the roads in it.

Then. again, it was only thr·ough the local authorities that money was raised in order

State Enterprises Bill. [21 AUGUST.) Stat£> Enterprises Bill. 1601

to provide against infectious disease. Wards were built and medicirh: and hospital atten­tion provided from cc!:lributions from the local authorities, and if the State industries paid nothing towards local government, how were they going to pay their quota towards freeing a district from those di,cases? Those hospitals were not State institutions; they had to depend on the contributions of the country pevp!P.

The PREMIER: Hon. members were aware ··ohat Crown lando were not assessable. For instance, the land on which Parliament House stood, on which the Trea>ury Build­ings were cr<ected, th21r public reserVE'9, and 20 on, were "11 not rateable, as were all their vac·ant Crown lands.

The SECRETAHY FOH PCBLIC l~STRUCTIO~ : Railway strttions.

The PRE:\HER : As his colleague re­mmded him, railway stations were also exempt. Tho snne applied here. At the snme cimF', hcl urr-der,tood t-hat there was force in the argument that if the State entered into ordinary Gusinesa enterprises, it should contribute tn. ards the upk-eep of ro>:ds, if it used the roads, and in other Din:dion6; and, as a matter of fact, in many ;wtancl's they did contribute. For instance, h., thought that in connection with thr· sawmill ut Imbil about £90 was spent on the construction of roads. The principle seemed to l'e wund, and for the information of hon. members he might say that the Goycrnment had under considPration a scheme "·herehy they would recoup local authorititc.<, not by way of allowing Crown lands to be rateable, but by paying a sum which wou~d go towards the funds of the local authorities, to bear any 5hare of the upkeep of the road·, which might be used by State stations, or sawmills, or other enterprises.

Mr. CoHSER: Proportionate to the roads in the district ?

The PRE1IIER: Pronortionate to the use made of the roads or the advantage obtained by the partlC'ular enterprise through the cxjwnditure by the local authority of its funds.

11r. BEBBI~GTO~: All the taxes they should pay-will they take that into consideration?

The PRE:\1IER: T'he hon, member may be sure that thPy will take into considera­tion the taxes they ;,hould pay. When they were talking about paying income tax, it was only hking out of on<' pocket and put­ting into another. :Xo doubt, the question of income tax should. be taken into con­sideration in estimating whether a particular concern wao a profitable concern-and it was taken into account. ·

* Mr. SIZER (Tun(hh): He did not quite agTee with the Premier, but as regards the allo"ance at Imbil he believed that the reason whv the Government were so generous was tha't the:· could not get. to the sawmill until they got a road, He thought that the Trea­surer, if he were a5ked for the result of his Hcent <'xperience of local authorities who waited on him, would admit that pradically everv one of them wanted a loan, but he was urcable to meet them. They were given to understand that the State intended to extend its operations in the iudustrial sphere, and it simply meant that instead of the local authorities conc8rned being able to raise as much money as they were able to raise at

1918-5 F

the present tirw thev would have to come to thP Treasurer ft,r more money. The T.rea­surer had not the money, with the result tbat the local authori tiee would be " broke." The Government, if they were contemplating tho extension of their enterprises, should m•ver pass the clause as it was. He knew that the. local a'uthoritics in his district experienced great uifficulties in financing ab,olutely necessary work, and there was no telling but that the Government would come a long '' ith a State enterprise in that particular area, If they exempted a few t[,onsand pounds worth of land from rates, he did not know what would happen. If they wanted to enter upon trading concerns, if they wanted to go beyond their goveming function, they should be placed on exactly thf: same basis as the private individual.

2\lr, G. P. BARXES (Wartcick) : He had pleasurp in supporting the amendment. At the same time, he thought that the f'om­mittee would be particularly glad at the a1mounccment by the Chief Secretary, which practically admitted the liability of the· Govrrnnwnt in conncctio:r with all rateable n,aitcrs. It would be manifcstlv unfair in 1, ore dir0ctions than one, if the Government WE're incrc:1sing their ventures in various directions, thao thev should pos.,ess an ad­Yantage whiefr WaS not po:•sO,SCd by any indiYidual :Jr company competing with them. H0 thought the Comrnittee were delighted to know that t!w Premier had cercificd his concurrence with the righteousness of the daim made bv m•~mbcrs on that side of the House, that -was, that the Government shou:d stand on all fours with individuals. It would be impo,sible rightly to appraise !he tnw value of any cntPrprioe which the Gov<'rnmcnt might establish if they did not pa~; the taxes that indiYiduals had to pay, although, as rightly stated by the Premier, when t.he" came to income tax and land tax it was simply a matter of taking morwy out of one pocket and putting it into another. Still the principle 11 as fair, and had be-Pn alr0adv re•·oO"ni~cd bv the Govei'nmcnli in. other directi~n~, for instance, in respect to railw;;y rates and fares. If the Railwdy Department -erved another department, that departm0ni p«id the railway department fer tiw sen-ices rendered. \Vith regard to the mAtter of local anthoritv he maintained that C"ery building, whethc>r- a railway station or not, ehould be liable to pay rate.,, As it was' only a matter: of hook entry, the Government wer0 not gomg to suffer. If one conc••rn paid every concern should pay an.! tb•'Y would then know exactly how they stood and the local authoriti0s would reap the ach·antages that would accrue from the levying of taxation all round.

Mr. VOWLES (Dalby): The principle that Crown lands should be exempt from taxation had, he thought, always been re· ('Og-r.ioed, but only when they were dealing with land unalienated from the Crown and used for public purposes. It was not sug­gested that an amenrhnent should be m<1de in that direction, but i' the Crown was g·oing' to acqnire freehold pruperties or any othPr class of rateable land which was at. t:w prc'.ent time paying rate·, the local authoritv in whose area it wao. ehould not have It>;

funds depleted by the revenue on the ra'.-'· able value of that land, He had in mind a case in point-one referred to by a provioui speaker-that was the case of the Ceci I Plains Station. There is 120,000 acres

Mr. Vowles.]

1602 State Enterprises Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] State Enterprises Bill.

of land there, and he knew that that land was· paying in rates to J ondaryan council a sum of upwardc' of £60C a year. He wished hon. meml'·crs wou:d IJ<. t carry on sueh !ou··l conversation whilo h3 was speakinR": he could not make himsell heard.

The CHAIRMAX: Order ! I must ask hou. rr1cn:nber::; to rco::,e frorr talking :-u loudly.

Mr. VOWLES: They could imagine that the depletion of that income made a very big hole in the spending pm;·er of that council, bec..tuse the offi0e expenses went on just the same, and only the balance was left to distribute amongst the workers to create improvement. He had always thought it a very great injustice that thD J ondaryan 'Council should lose that £600 a year, as they had for thu last three years, because the 'employees of the Government usod the improvements effected by the local authority; and why should they use them and not h>tve to pay for thDm? That applied as a general principle all round. If they were going to continue these public enterprises and bring about nationalisation in the futur0 as one of the ideals of hon. mo.nbers opposite, then he did not know what position the State was going to got into. They would find the rateable value of the land operated on by the local authorities gradually lessened. It would be ta.ken out of their hands altogether, and the result would be tha,t the property-owners left would have to bear an increased cost of taxation. The Government were loading this extra taxation on to these property­owners. The Premier recognised that it was a n•asonable request to a certain extent when he said that the Government were contmnplating an a1nendment or son1e actjon which would meet, the position from the Government's point of view when the position arose. That was too indPfinite altogether. Now was the proper time to do it. The l'r<emier should take the House into his confidence, and let them know how far he proposed to go. The Premier suggested that it would be on thD basis of the amount of use the Government institution or the enter­prise was going to get out of the roads. If that was good enough for the Government, why was it not good enough also for the private individual? \Va.s it the intention of the Govorwnent to create a universal fran· chis0 for the people of Queensland, whom tfiey heard so much about? Surely, the Pre­mier was going to let the people of Queens­land know to what extent the Government institutions were going to contribute towards the cost of the roads. Was it a fair thing that the Government should come into com­petition with the private individua.l, and that the Government should be relieved of all taxation while the private individual with whom he competed had to meet all his obligations in that respect? If the intention was to relieve the local authorities of those payments and put them on a better footing, why did not the hon. gBntlcman say so? The Premier aJso sa,id that he would take some notice of the amount which the entPrprises would have to pay for income tax. It was only right, in order to arrive at a reason­able profit, to take all these things into con­sideration. The Government should deduct the amount< that an ordinary individual would pav for rates and income tax when arriving at the profit on a State enterprise. The Premier said the Govprnment proposed to bring alcout some arrangement whereby

[Mr. Vowles.

the enterprises would pay their share of taxati-:m. The proper time to do it was now, and they should know how far the Govern­ment were prepared to go. They did not want to take advantage of the Government bY claiming the benefit of the amendment, btlt they wanted the Bill to beeome law in as perfect a form as pos:ible, and tb ey Wflllted to see that the State was in no better position with regard to tradiiJg enter· prises than other people carrying on the same class of business.

HoN. J. G. APPEL (Alb,rt): If the Pre· mier accepted the amendment ho would not occupy the time of the Committee, otherwise he would have to give the reasons why he supported it. The Premier made a sugges­tion that he would probably introduce legis­lation to enable local authorities to receive contr:butions in connection with the construc­tion of roads through Crown lands. That principle already existed, and had existed for years. Th;c,t legislation had been intro­duced by a Liberal Administration. and pro­vided fur contributions being made to local authorities from the Public Estate Improve­ment Fund. In the first instance the Lands Dcparknent constructed the roads themselves, but afterwards they found it was more econo­mical to entrust the construction of the roads to the local authodties. They all knew that Cmwn lands were not rateable, but the local authorities did not construct roads through Crown lands. Thev onlv constructed roads to where th,, Crown ·lands· had been alienated, and then received rates for the purpose of such comtruction. Thev all knew it was the policy of the present 'Government to cast further and heavier burdens upon the local authorities. The hon. member for Windsor was good enough to say that the previous Liberal Administration were not in sympathy with the local authorities, but during the period that he (Mr. Appel) occupied the position of Home Secretary he always worked in perfect amity and sympathy with the local authorities. The present Home Secre­tary only received a,bout a dozen deputations from kcal authorities during the year, but he (Mr . .Appel) .used to receive two deputa­tions a wePk from local authorities for every week of th'' year.

Mr. FREE: Thov are well satisfied now, and they don't want to go so often.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: On the contrary, the local authorities said that they could get no satisfaction now. The whole policy of the present Administration was to cast further burdens on the local authorities. That was evidenced by the legislation which had been introduced since they had been in power. The previous Administration refused to grant anv endo\\mcnt to the local authorities be­cause they were leaving to the local authori­ties the whole of the taxa,tion on the land. They gave the local authorities a free hand to rate both the freehold and leasehold lands of the State, but to·day the local authorities had to economise becausD they did not desire to impoverish those interested in the frDehold and lpa,sehold lands of the State. The a,ctivities of the local authorities wore limited, because thPy were unable to add additional burdens on to the ratepayers owing to the taxation of the present Govern­m~nt. They could see that from the delibera­tions of the local authoritic,. Owing to the land tax imposed by the present Government, the locd authorities were unable to carry out necessary works for the benefit and

State Enterp1·ises Bill. [21 AUGUST.] State Enterprises Bill. lG03

comfort of the ratcrpayers. He remembered when the Brisbane council stated that they would do without the endowment from the Government if they were only given per­mio"ion to tax Governm.ent properties in the city. He (:Vir. Appel) did not say that public offices which were erected for the benefit of the communitv should be burdened by local authority taxation, but he did con­side,· that when the State entered into trading enterprises, and competed with pri­vate enterprise, then the State should be placed on the same basis as the properties with whieh it competed. It was not always a panacea. for local authorities to have Government undertakings in their area. The city of Brisbane could not benefit by the {)Onstruction of a road through any Crown lands. It had been pointed out that a number of burdens were being placed on the local authoritic,. In addition to looking aft~r thP ron"'truetion of ro::tds, and bridge;, a.nd drainage, thry were also called upon to pay attention to the si··k, especially those affected with infectious diseases. Thev meant a heavy burden on the local authorities.

The Hmm SECRETAHY: Should it not be so?

Ho~_. J. G. APPEL: He was raising no objectron to that, but he was going to point out that the Government were crippling the local authm·ities by starting enterprises, became it lo•seneJ the revenue of the local authoriti" as they could not, get the rates from those properties . which they had recoiYed heretofore. He thought that all th<' Goym·nment enterprises should bear local <cuthority taxation in the same way as prrvate enterprises. He did not intend to occupy the attention of the House much longer. The matter seemed to hirrl to be so

absolutely jmt and equitable that [4.30 p.m.] those properties should continue

to share the local authority taxa­tion, that he was surprised that the Premier -although apparently recognising to some c•xtent the . justice of the request-did not accede to it.

T~e PRE}IIER: Do you argue that railway statwns should pay rates?

Ho~. J. G. APPEL: "'o. he did not, be­-cause railway stations were. for the conveni­ence of the general public, just as the E>:ccutive Buildings and the Treasury Buildings were.

The PRK\IIER: The hem. member for \Y arwick argued that they should.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: His contention was that where the State entered into competition with private enterprise-and in that he was with the mover of the amendment-then those properties should continue to pay local authority rates. The Hon. the Premier mentioned the fact that a certain amount of money had been expended in connection with th£> construction of a road to enable timber to be brought to the State sawrl',ills, but that road had been constructed in Crown land, and hr' (Mr. Appel) had already pointed out that local authorities did not construct roads in Crown lands: they properly avoided 'Crown lands.

The PRE)liER: But this was not through Crown land-a portion of that road was through private land, I understand.

HoN. J. G. APPEL: That might be; but it was a road that was of no value appar­en.tly to any ratepayers, or it would have

been formed nnd constructed. It was simply constructlJd for the purpose of enabling timber to be brought from the sawmill to the railway station, and was absolutely necessarv for the eonvenience of the State sawmill.'

The PRE:\IIER: Supposin&lil' private person owned that 'Aitwmill, "-ho f!hould build that road then?

Hox. J. G. APPEL: Judging by the public-spirited action of certain sawmillers in my own electorate-at Canungra-the sawmill owncro would have practicallv con­tributed the whole of the moneY. He 'might mention that the firm of Le,1hvs Ltd. had contributed thousands of pound; before the raihva v was con~~ructed to Canungra in assisti,]g the local authorities and the ~hire council, not ;done in the maintenance, but also in the eonstruction of the roads they need, for the purpose of bringing their timber from the sawmill to the railwaY station at Jimboomha, and paid the rate's as well: so that in the case mentioned the State had simply done as priYate sawmillers had done. That was a concrete instance. He did not say that the Libnra 1 Adminis­tration had not pl aecd further burdens upon the local authorities. He knew that with regard to the different amendments of the Local Authorities Act, which he introduced and which were now law, he had passed additional rospomibilities upon local authori­ties. But in ca,ting additional liabilities upon local authorities, they had not taken the source of income a\vay from those authorities. 'They left the entire taxation of the land to the local authorities. To-day. the powers of taxation were not limited but they were restricted, owing to the fact that they were unable to increase their rates, by reason of the burdens which had been placed upon them in connection with the State land tax.

The PRE:IIIER: Do you make lands on which sugar mills were erected subj cct to rates ?

Ho~. J. G. APPEL: He was not quite certain whether he did or not; he was not going to say one thing or the other. That was a matter that was under the adminis­tration of the Hon. the Treasurer. But, at the same time, he contended that the CBntral sugar-mill was on quite a different plane to the State butchers' shops or the State public­house, because, until the mill was erected, the land was not available for settlement.

Mr. BEBBINGTOX: The same with butter factories. ·

HoN .• J. G. APPEL: As was pointed out by the hon. member for Drayton, co-operative butter factories paid rates. The Hon. the Premier knew that, until the central sugar­mills were erected in the particular localities, the land in the vicinity could not be settled, as it was only poo;ible to grow nugar thei·e, and unless that crop could be manufactured it was impossible for the settle­n:cnt of that particular land to go on. He thought it was quite an equitable thing, therefore, that !he particular area upon which the mill stood-which was for the benefit of the collective settlers surrounding that mill-should be free from local authority rates. But the Hon. the Premier was quite missing the point which he was endeavouring to make. The fact of a State butcher's shop bf'ing- established in a locality in the city of Brisbane or suburbs .did not assist in

Hon. J. G. Appel.]

1604 State Entrrpri,es Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] State Enterpriseg Bill.

the settlement of the city of Brisbane, or any other city, or any particular suburb.

The PRK\IIER : The hon. member for Drayton says it does. He says the people are coming in from the country.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: I said nothing of the sort. "'

HoN. ,J. G. APPEL: He conld only urge the Hon. the Premier to give favourable consideration to the amendment, as he thought it only just and equitable that it should be agreed to.

The SECRETARY FOR P"CBLIC I-;\f­STRUCTION: The speech of the hon. gcntlPmau who had jl!st sat down showed the difficulty of carrying out the principle involwd in the amendment. He thought it must be a-dmitted that the Government was in an entirely different position from the private individual.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Not a bit. Exactly the same, as far as the shire councils are con­cerne-d.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: Take a cattle station, for example. The rating was based upon a multiplication of the rent paid to the Crown -twenty times the -annual rent paid to the Cro\Vn, The Crown stations belonged to the Crown, and, therefore, there was no rent and no rateable basis.

::\fr. BEBBINGTON: Why· don't you pay rates and rents?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRCC'l'ION: There was no rateable basis. The moment the land became Crown pro­perty it ceased to pay rent, and therefore, under the Local Authorities Act, there could be• no assessment of rates. Take again the case of the land bought some years ago between Hamilton and Pinkenba for the purpose of starting a Lumber of industries there. vVere the locCLl authorities to impose rates l\pon that land? If the amendment were carried rates would have to be levied upon all those big areas cf *land between Hamilton and Pinkenba. Take the case of the abattoir land at Yerongpilly. which was mentioned last night. \Vhen did the moment commence when that industry was initiated?

Mr. BllBBINGTON : \Vhen you buy the land.

The . SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION.: He thought it was very doubtful whether it had commenced as a State enterprise or not. One of the reasons which differentiated Crown enterprise from private ;,nterprise was that the private indi­vidual £"Ot a value that he had not made, but \vhich the community had made, and he therefore had a right to pay that value to the community for the benefit received. The Crown, however, was representative of the community which made the value, there­fore was not entitled to pav same as a private individual· was. The individual received something he did not make. But rher~ was another distinction over and above that, and that was that the Crown in a hundred ways gave value to the properties in local authorities. For example, where a school had been established, and where rail­ways had been constructed, etc. In all those ea'"" where the Crown was carrying on different activities the local authorities were receiving a substantial benefit, for which the Crown got nothing in return. He thought it would be a mistake to agree to the amend­ment. He could quite understand in the case of a small butcher's shop that there

[Hon. J. G. Appel.

would be some legitimate reason for making it pay rates.

OPPOSITION ME>IBERS: That is all we ask.

'Ihe SECRE'l'ARY FOR FCBLIC IN­STRUCTION: But they were going to carry the principle very much further than a mere butcher's shop. They were going to carry it to cattle stations, and under the amend­ment they could not make a cattle station subject to the local authorities' rntes, because there would be no Crown rents.

Mr. BEBBINGTON : There ought to be.

The SECRETARY FOR PDBLIC IN­STRUCTION: That might be, but that amendment could not make them subject to rates. He was pointing out that there were other ways of doing it, and the proposal of the Premier to do it in the form of a con­tribution seemed to be a much better way.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Will you undertake that he will do it? (Opposition laughter.)

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC Ii-J­STRUC'l'IOl\: \Vith regard to the interjec­tion of the leader of the Opposition, he would take it that he had just had a lucid moment of humour. It would be better if they ac­cepted the offer of the Premier to recognise the r"sponsibility by contribution.

Mr. BEBBI.NGTON: That is too indefinite. IIo promised us nothing.

Ho;,. y,-_ Il. BARI\ES: The Secrei.L!'< fur· Public Instruc:tiou· haJ very largely ':irkt_·d t lw qrwsticn, rc>camc the amendment simply as!.:cd t h tt 'she· re thf' GoYcrnnwnt elltPlL·d Juto comp')tition ; ith other people they qhoukl be plaC'ed on the ~aDH' fe•Jri!;~· ·'ls­

c her pcap:c. Rur,_ly ·.he Gon·n,~ ·ult '.-..:(·re inst as well able, if tl-:Iey WC'f8 goi11g ir) run CJ•terpri.ses. to contribute towards the upkeep 1 l loC'al authoritic·: as were other pcvple. )l.t least. th"v ou,ht to bP. The )1011. member mentioned th: t thPrc had been a dr>parture scmewhnt from the ordinarv condition d 1 ~ungs, and that dcl)arture reall~V Wa5 on thB" par·t of the Gov-ernment themselv-es. Apart f10m the rail wavs and one or t \YO other in­stitutions, there had previously been really no State enterprises. The Government \\'ere­pledged to State enterprises as part and parcel of their platform, and they were carrying it out. It seemed to l•im that they \Yantod Lot onlv to hav-e thei.- Slate entorpriee~. but tbey \vant<•d to be put on an abso:ntely diffnent plane to other people so that thev v.-ould hav-e an aclv-antage ove1· other p·eople. \Yas that fair? Aln adv there were a number of advantages which they enjoyed. Tr-ke, £or example, the non-stamping of receipt". \Yas that not a distinct adv-antage? Then tlw Gov-ernnwnt were in this position: that if the law was broken and the> lme'' it was broken in connection with the State Produce Agencv-if the law was broken the Gov-<'rnnwnt ,_,:ere no! prosecuted. 'I'hey were ou a plane whiC'h no other p0ople were on. In adciirion to that there had been piaced on rhe community, as represented by lncal authoritie•, add1tional burdens. Might he remind the hon. gentleman of certain circumstances in his own district? Take the main street of Glerrnont. On one sid•.' there, 'vcro perpt-cual leasr ~ as a rcsu!t of the Gc.v-ernment uolicv and on the otlwr c'de the or•dinar.v f'onflihori~ prl'Yail. Tho position ln Clermont to-da v was that on one side of the street the poop.ln practically paid no rate-<.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : Leasehold is \cry mu•.'h to their advantrtge.

State Entc rprises Bi!l. [21 AUGUST.) State Entcrpri&es Bill. 1605

Ho:<:. W. H BARi\'F~S: If it was a good t],ing, in the working out of it, it was abso­lutely unequal as far as the eommumty was concerned. On one side the people were absoluteh· nenaliscd because they happened to be under th•· old order of things.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUC'IIOli : 'J'hnt is qUJte right, and it nc.~,ds an amend­ment of the Act.

1-Jo:;:. \V. H. BARNES: It needed the wis­clom of the Secretary for Public Instruction' tc put the thing right. Further, from year to year, e:c:pPC'ially sine;~ the present Govern­ment nme into of!ice, there ha·d been a load­inrt of the local authorities with additional bt;rdcns, and, as the hon. member for Albcrt Jt>entionccL there had been a land tax put upon the con1munity \vhiK'h was a doubk burdeYr upon those \Yho contribute to local e L>thdriti<, Therefore if the Government were ;incere they had a right to as.oist the loc a! antlJOritic, by allowing the mselvc s to bn rah•d so that th•~.Y lllight a,o,ist to bear the guwl )~J hurc1 c~n. Suppo-:ing that eyery­thlng c :.rnf' tuHL'r Gon::>rrnnent control, how \ver, tho<~ rtnthorities going to b~ run? Tlw nn•mwt of mone0· required by the loc,-1! authl.rities for their Yarious works was in­cr.;a::-lng fl··)H! year to yc~u·, and 1£ their re­Y.;.'nuc g·o('S what was going to happen to the c.)tnnnntit~~ 'f They should receive son1cthing '"Gre. th ,, the p>·omi&c giYen by the leader of the Gm-crccn,cnt. Ile was yery careful to notiC•" that d1e 2\Jinister for Public In­struction did not like to nail the promise said to be made by the Premier. He rather dropped it by saying something ei~:,_ rnd P'-T!1·:ps he wa~ very wise in doing "0. unl< ·S the Premier got up and gave a definite 11ro~n!sc th·)t he v;ould bring in a mcasur0 to give assi~ta-lcc to lncal authori~ tics am! mal«' it concurrent with the Bill, the aHlBlHlmcnt should be carried.

Mr. SI?: ER: The' :Minister for Public Instruction :u:;r.~crl that industrial concerns sbould be taxable, but he said you could not ·draw a distinction bctYceen one and another. Jt would not he di[Hcult for him (;\'Ir. Sizer) tr, draw a ,Ji,tinction bdwccn the Executive Euilding an:! the butchers' shops. He did not knmY wh •thcr it would be difficult for the hon. g0nth~n1~1L The clause read-

,, Land for thn time being vested in the Minister or oc,'upi~d by him for the purposC' of ctn rying on business."

The SEC.RFTmY FOR PUBLIC lNSTRUCTIO;-.<: \\'hat is bu,iness?

l\lr. SfZER: I£ the Minister could not df'tennine what .vas a business, then it was a pretty serious thing for the Cabin et. The Premier, seeing that hi' coEeague as sup­!•Orting the amcudnwnt, should go further and e:cv he woukl accent it as far as the Bill was concerned. If the amendment were accepted, it would only applv to those busi­ne~s<'s namc•d in the Bill, and if any new busines' was started and it came under the operations of the Bill then it also would be lirrble to pay rates. There could be no difficulty about it.

1fr. GRAYSO~: 'I'he amendment should be accepted by the Goyernment.

The PREi.lfiER: What do you think of the proposal I macle?

Mr. G R.\ YSON: He listened to the pro­posal made by the Pr<cmicr, and it appeared to him to be ..-ery ambiguous. If the Pre­mier would 1 isc in his place and "tate a

li!tle more definitely what assistance he was prepared to grant to the local authorities it would be much more ~atisfactory.

The PREMIER : You will be able to keep going on the other ammdments till 6 o'clock. (Laughter.) I know what the trouble is. I have been there.

Mr. GRA YSON: The Premier stated that cm· of rhe State sawmills had spent about £90 in making roads in the district. That was of no assistance to the local authority, and he would point out that in a number of inetances pnvate sawmillers had spent £200 or £300 in making roads to their mills. Some of them had eyen built tram­' ;>ys, but that was of no assistance to the iocal authoritv in the district. It must be remembered, too, that the loLal authorities w0re losino- a VC'1'V bnge an1onnt each year o~ uu:oun't ot th'8 Government purchaLsing th0 various station'3. Take, for instance. tho Coril Plain, Estate of 120,000 acres frBehold on the J)arling Do\~,n~. The previous owners d that eshte paid £600 per annum in rates bJ the ,J ondarvan Shirr Cc nncil, but under the Bill the Gm·crmncnt woul-d be exempt from all h:s:1tion ard the Jondaryan Shire Council would be unable to collect anything fron1 the GovcrnrnC'nt in -ccnnt~ction 'vith Cl'(·il Plain,. 'fbon, t~1c Go,-ernmont claimed that the State l·utch<'rs' shops should br <'>:cmpt from taxation, :·et the speech ckliYered 11' the ::\Iinistcr for Eclucation was one of the stromrest arguments he had heard ill fayom· of the amendment. The local anthorities were doing a splendid work in OuP0nsland. ancl the:: could not do too much for them. If the local authorities were to reas" operatirms ancl the d1tties performed bv them fell upon the Gowrnment the G'OY('l'!lment Would find themselves in a Very difficult position.

The PRE~riER : You are not suggesting a rE·volution, are you?

)ir. GRAYSON: He was not suggesting a reYolntion, but he had served during manv years of his life on a local authority. He knew the local .aut-horities were doing a good ork, and he was surprised that the Premier had not recognised it. The Pre­n.if'r h~·d an opportunity now to do some­thing to usr.i't the local authorities of the State. He Phould accept the amendment and allow the iocal authorities to collect the usual rates on all Government property. There was absolutely no reason why the amendment shoul-d not be accepted, and thGJ·e seemed •n be a difference of opinion on tb<' front 'J're:tmrv bench in regard to the matter. The Sccl'f'tat·y for Public Instruc­tion was in h\-our of the amendment, and n0 hoped the hon. gentleman would use his influence with the Premier and induce him to accept it.

Mr. MOORE: Some time ago there was a discussion in connection with the royalty on timber and the Minister at that time promi~ed to put £7.000 OJ? .the :ij:;;timates for &ssistance to local authorttws. There was a great flourishing of trumpets when that amount was put on the Estimates. It was said that the Gov0rnment recogni;ed their responsibilities, and apparently the same sort of grant was going to be made in the ~resent case. That amount was put on the Estimates for assistance to local authorities, and at the end of the vear, when questions w8re asked as to how the £7,000 had been distributed, the Minister calmly got up r.nd said nobody

Mr. Moore.]

1606 State Enterprises Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] State Ente•prises Bill.

had applie-d for it. As a matter of fact, on two occasions he (Mr. Moore) made applica­tion for it, and he wns told that it was not ready for distribution, and it had not been decided as to how it wr,s to be distribute-d.

He would like wmething wore [5 p.m.] definite. Thev did not know what

Goyernment was going to be in power in the future.

''l'he PREMIER: If I gave yoLt an v.ssur&nce as to what Governm0nt is' going to be in power, what then?

Mr. MOORE : The Premia· could give no such a~'urance. Thev did not want an assurance "\Ye will gi~-e you a dole out later on." They wanted something definite in the Bill to wy that when oth·'r Governments c:tme into power they would pay rates on busines•, premises. That £7,000 was wiped off after the first _,-ear, and nobody got it except somebody who got the tip to apply for it. The Premier admitte-d that the principle was a fair thing, and why not put it in the Bill, so that they could kno·.o: wlPre they stood? To quibble about not being able to asses' the lands wn..s too ab<-nrd 'or words. They could be assessed by the Land Court.

Amendment (Jlr. Jioort 's) put and nega· tived.

Clause 12 put and passed. Clause 13 put and passed. On the >checlule-

Mr. MACARTKEY asked whether it would not be fairer to deal with the schedule clause by clause. It comisted of twenty-three clauses, practically all of which were ordi­narily matters open to anwn,iment.

The PREMIER: How long would you be likely to take? ~

Mr. J\TAC.\RT::'-JEY: Th{' hon. member knew that when the: gave their word from that side they kept it. They had given the Govenunent an as~nrance. that they 1vould get through by 6 o'clock.

The PRE}!!ER: I presume you am aoking so that you can oc('upy the time until 6 o'clock. When you retort as you do, that is the proper ans 1

.\ er fnr 1nc to give you.

Mr. MACART::'-JEY: The hon member could do c•xactly as he liked. If he' did not care to, he need not do it,

The PREMIER: I do not see <mv convenience in it. There are two amcndme;Jts vou ".cnt to make, •

Mr. 1\IACARTNF.Y: The hon, member, if he knew th(• Standing Ordf!rs, knew that in Committee ihev were li;nited to a certain number of tiu'es to speak, nnd they could not deal ·with ~~\ erything 011 011e quf""'tic,n. ~fhe hon. mmnber knevv· th;, t th0r·."'-· was an understanding which would be honourably carried out. He asked that, for convenience, the schoclule he t··tken by se'larate d.auses.

The I'RE}flER: Thon it is gran!:cd as a n1atter of convenience.

Mr. MACART::'-JEY: TlJe hon. member need not interpolate a paltr_,. remark of that sort. But that being so, the }wn. member for Mirani had nn an1endm0nt on clause 2.

Cla•JS<'S 1 to 7 of the schedule put and [Hl~scd.

On clause 8 of the schedule-" Particul.Lr po1cer" of Mini~ter "-

[ .i11 r- },1 oore.

Mr. SWAYNE moved-That, after line 44, the following proviso be inserted : -·

"Provided that no .agreement to pur­chase any property made by virtue of the provi,ions of this Act shall h"'ve force until approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament."

Anyone who read the Bill would see that there were very good reasons for the accept­

" ance of the amendment. Take the greut range of powm·s contained in the _Bill.. The ~.Jinlster in charge could, he took rt, w1thout any further applioation to ParliaEJent, elCJ·

bark on the purchase of stations, butchers· shopf'~ sawmills, coalmines, iron and steel \H ... d\.1!~ canneries, batterjes, and hotelF, -1nJ spend very large sums of money, and it was onlv reasonable that before expen~htLue of an,~ magnitude wa3 incurre-d the ta_xpayers' J'(_·l;n·scntativcs in Parli"l.mC'nt shvulcl }wYt: th;! cpportnnity of 0xprc:csing their opinion. For imtance the purcha·.e or starting of a batch of hot',.) J for onr £100,000 might be contemplated. Parliament might consider that it would be far more beneficial if that money wore spent in bra.nch agricultural rail­\Yays or something else that would add to the productiYen<>ss of the country.

1 n the past hon. m embus opposite hml exnl·e··;.'c,~d sin1ilar opinions. t-Ie notic0d tlu:~ when a Bill was beforP the Houce for the pnrpo,.D of spending St:J.te rnoney it1 ~r.~ c- t..tblishmcnt of ugar-mills, an amendment >Yas moy~d to the effect that eac:h separate propo·ition "hottl·d be dealt with hy Parlia· ment. A vote "as taken, all<.! a m em her of the Cabinc·t at present tfien votPd in favour of the provi'o. The proYision \Yhich it was a',ked should be included in n1e Sugar ·works Guarantee Act of 1893 WJS, in ·ch<'''8 Wol'cls, moved by the leader of the Opposition-

,, until the application has been sub­mitted to P-arli~mcnt and approved cf."

The PREmER: \Vhat wa.s the applif'ation for'

:Wr. S\VA Y::'-JE: The c•rpenrlitmc of mon("l for sugar-mills.

The PRE}I!ER : The cxpendttme on a mill >Yonld be a vetT large sum.

J'IIr. SWAYNE: No larg('y' than might be incurred under the Bill. ~

The PRE1IIER: If vour a•nendmont were carried you could !lot' bu~ ftfty head of ctttle v it11ont v,a;ting for a re,;-olutinn nf hoth Hou·2S of Parliament.

Mr. ')\V Al. XE: If he providc·d fo< a specific arrwunt, sa,', £20,000 or £50,COO, would the Pre·llicc· a('ceot it?

The PRE-·1iER: You i1ave no1: •(l,Jne that. \Yhen that position arises I >rill deal \\ ;tb it.

Mr. ~;WA. YNE: W<'ll, then, he ·,yould tt '' the Prwni.cr'~ ::inceritv i_u the rnatter. Ef9 would move that .vhere the expenditure ex0o0df'•d .a cPrt";in amount Pa::-1i.1mcilt ':ihould ha vc the opportunity of expressing i h opinion upon it. He vas just Jlointing out _tha.t in the past the narty opposite· had stgmfiecl their appro.-a! of snch a principle. lie found from thG division li-.'· that such members of the Labour movement as Bro\Y·w, lleid. Hardacr2. Kcrr, and others voted fc,· it then. \'\'hat was the difference between ~pending St.ate mono\ in t.h·] erection of a sugar-m'ill and spending it in the startin~ of a sawmill or "omcthing els•2 of t!w kind? And he might say that 'the State RnwmilJ at X cw :;b ad Inost certainly furnisbf'~~ a Yery strong reason why somr- safegnard -.hould be

State Enterprises Bill. [21 "AUGUST.] State Enterprises Bill. 1607

inserted, becaase he felt quite sure, from what little k1wwl•~dge ho had of the subject, that very good reasons could have ht:en given against the purchase of that plunt. It was by no meaas a first-class plant. hy no means worthy of beinc,- a State sawmill.

Ho would aleo like to point out. that they had already embodied that prmcip:e in recent legislation. In paragraph (cJ of sec­tion 7 of the Co-operntive Sugat' \Vorks Act of 1914 there were the"e words-

" Provirled that it c!lall not be lawful to purchase any sug·ar-works under this ..:let unlnss or until the agreen1ent for s~.-1e!1 pnrcha<:;r:! has been approved by ::.·eso­lubon of both Houses of Parliament."

The reaeons given at the time were reasons >•·hich obtained in connection with the Bill. It was poin~ed out that the opportunity for abu~£ was very much greater in regard to the purchase of old works than in respect of the establishment of new enterprises. He did not think that at the time hon. members ?PPO&ite made any objection to it, and if It "as a good thing then most certainly it should oe good nmv.

Then in regard. to railways, the fact that each serarate ra:lwar proposal had to be &ubll_>itted t? Parliament had not proved deh:mental 111 any way. He thought it had b~ <:n shown to be. a good and beneficial pro­nswn, and espeCially when any large ex­penditurE' was intended the same arguments would apply. Under the Bill in clause 7 theY found that the Ministe1: would hav~ pov,er to "take; purchase, or contract." 'l'hcre wa~ no ch~ck upon him in any way v:lwtcvr::r. Were those the principles be­lwve·d 111 by hon. gentlemen opposite, that the l\linister in chnrc;e should have no check upon him whatever, a;1d that he should have power to enter into any contracts involving large >Snms of monev. Where was such a law as that !ikely to iead to? They knew it would lead to corruption. The amendment h0 had moved was in the interests of the public ann a protection to the taxpayers of the State, and it should be accepted.

The PREl\IIER: He could not accept thEl amendment, as it was obviously an attempt tc. bloc'' the whole Bill.

Mr. Sw.\YNE: You have no right to say that.

The PREniER: \Yell, he was saying it, anrl he would give his rer,sons for saying it. If the amendment WP,re carried they could ::et buy a sin.de beast or buv 5s. worth of property without having to, wait until a rc:.olntion was pa,.•.ed through both Houses o: Parliamr·nt. If that was not intended h block the Bill, he did not know what it >;·as intended to do.

:\fr. Sw,\Y:'E: Then you must have tried to blo. k the Sugar Bill, becaul''l you believed in it then.

The PRE:\HER: In that, case it involved th•; erection of a sugar-mill, which cost hun­dreds of thousands of pounds, and as there was plenty of time to pa·,, a re.,olution thnJUgh both Houses of Parliament in that cafn it vras an entirely different matter. lrhoever drafted the amendment-he sup­posed it >~·as drafted in the caucus of the Opposition-he knew that it die! not matter r hctber thn Legislative Council passed the Bill or not, but if that amendment were accepted it would block the whole Bill. No more disingenuous amendrr,ent had been

proposed than that proposed by the hen. member for Mirani. He could not accept it.

Mr. MACARTNEY: It might be that the amendment was not perfect, but its object w:ts to protect the country.

The PREMIER: It will have the effect I said,

Mr. MACARTNEY drew attention to sub­clause (4), which gave the Minister most extra,ordinary powers. It read as follows :-

" All rights, powers, functions, and authorities given to or vested in His Majesty by this Act, or under any in­strument taken or purported to be taken uncle~ th" authority thereof, in respect of ~uch r<'al and personal propertv, shall and may be lawfully exercised 'by the J\linister on behalf of His Majesty as fully and effectually as the same might or could be exrrcised by His Majesty; and every instrument executed by the Minister, and every act or thing done bv the Governor in Council under or for tl1e purpos•·s of this Act, shall hav~ the same force and effect as if the same in­strument were executed h:.- or such act or thing were done by His Majesty."

There was not even a semblance of a chef\k upon 'the Minister. The Governor in Council was not even called on to exercise any super­vision. Under that cl a use they were dele­gating to th., Minister every power vested in His Majesty or the Governor in Council. It did not matter how ignorant the Minister might be, or how irresponsible he might bel or what strings might be pulled to compe him to do anything, there was no check \vhatever upon him; it \vas a most unwar­ranted power to confer upon any Minister. The amendment of the hen. member for Mirani dealt more particularly with the purchase of real and personrtl property, and there wa'i not any intention on the part of that hon. member of pr~venting the Govern­ment from purchasing little matters of detail in eonnert,ion with its enterprises. The hen. me-mber for Il1irani ,,-as to be encouraged in <:ndeavouring to put c,ome reasonable check upon the l\!inistrr and the Government. However, thej rcalisPd the position they were in as an Opposition, and they realised that the Bill had to go through as framed by the Parliamentary Drafhman. It had been discussed downstairs, and it did not matter what was said in Parliament, and it did not matter how the usages of Parlia­ment were limited. the Bill had to be car­ried. All the Opposition could do was to get out their objections awl leave it at that. Amenclm~nt (,'tfr. 81cayne's) put and noga­

tiwd. On clause 8-

Mr. SWAYNE ha,_l a further amendment v. bich was suggested bv the Premier him­self. There - a<• no desir~ to frivolously take c'Ccqption to the Bill, or to block the GoYernment from expending sma]] sums that would he necessary in carrying out the intention -of the .\et. He moved the inser­tio,; of the following words after line 44 :-

" Provided that no expenditure exr,·od­ing the sum of fi£1:'- t ho.u• and pounds be made unle% approved of by resolution of both Houses of Parliament:"

He thought that £50,000 was a fair amount to allow any Minister. I£ the wording of the amendmen~ was not correct. and tho Premier "'as not in syiEpathy with it, he would

Mr. Swa11ne.]

1608 State Enterprises Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] State Enterprises Bill.

be pleased to get the assistance of the Pre­mier to frame a better amendment. He thought that Parliament should have a chance of expressing an opinion on an expenditure of more than £50,000. That wa.s an eminently <lernocratic principle.

The PREMIER : It did not take him long to make up his mind about the amount. He was not in favour of it. In fact, he was very much oppoi,ed to it. What the hon. member was trying to do was this: If the Bill were pa-,sed and an appropriation of £50,000 or £100,000 wa.s passed, then they eould not move without bringing the Legis­lative Council into the Cabinet. Th8y would have to agree to have the Legislative Council approving of everything before they could move. The hon. gentleman want.ed to put th0 power into the hands of the Legislative Council to say "No'' to every proposal.

111-. 1\IACAHTNEY: That is not an unmixed evil.

The PRI<~JIIIER : The leader of the Oppo­sition franklv admitted that tha.t \PS what hr v. anted, but the Government did not want it. (Hear, hear!)

Mr. d\VA YNE: His only object was to carrv the matter out in a constitutional man~1er. All money should be sanctioned by Parliament before being spent. He pointccd rmt that at the present time the Upper House was pa.rt of the Queensland Parliament, and recently the people of Quemland by a big majority decided that the Upper House shm1kl stay there. \Vas it democratic on the part of the Premier to try and sidestep the intention of the people of Queensland as expressed b.5 a hig majority? The people decicled there should be an Upper House, and it was the duty of the Upper House to pass legislation. The Premier imputed a.ll sorts (1£ rnotiYes to hi21 for n1ovjng the a m .,ndn1ent.

The PRT}!IER:- I just pointed out what the a nwndment says.

Mr. SWAYNE: The Premier was flouting the ,,·ill of the people of Queensland by ignoring the Council.

Mr. CoLLIXS: \Vo have be0n before the pc>oplc• of Qnccnsland since then.

Amendment put and negatived. Clauses 8 to 12 put and passed. On clause 13--" Discharge of Mirzister"-­:'\1r. MACAR'I'NEY: This clauSt' pro·

vidod-" The receipt given by any person to

the :\1inistcr for a.ny monen paid under this Act shall be an absolute discharge to the :\Iinistcr."

Was that a fair thing: The Minist0r might pay some people not entitled h receive money, and yet he could get a clear dis­charge. Wa.s tha.t a position that any Minis­h:•r should be placed in while he was con­ducting a State (•nterpriso?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: The clause required a good den,] of explanation. A receipt might be given to the right person or it might not. and the Ministm· wished to be relieved of every bit of respon:,ibility. A Minister con­ducting an enterprise should be liable for the conditions that appertained to that enter­prise. The clause exempted the Minister, and there wa.s no redress a-gainst the Govern­ment for any monetary blunder. There

[21:£ r. Swayne.

might be redress if the individual liked to go for some other individual. The clause required a good deal of explanation, because the Minister wished to place himself in a position that was unassailable, whereas he should be lega.lly approachable and had no right to be relie,·ed of the responsibilitie& of hi: position. He felt sure that when the Premier considered the amendment fully he would realise that it was a very reasonable one. Meanwhile, he considered that the individual was placed at a discount, as com­pared with the l\Iinister carrying on the busine•o.

The PREMIER : He thought the leader of the Opposition r hoL1ld be well acqua-inted with the principle contained in the clause. There were manv instanc0s in other Acts where similar provisions were contained. He had had Acts turned up that had been pa,,oc] by the previous Governments show-

inrr that such was the case, and [5.60 p.m:] th~ hon. l:E·ntleman must . be

acquainted "·ith the la.w relatmg to trustees' recei1Jts, and ':·O on. lion. Inem­beL woul<l kno\v that proper inquiries were made by the :\linister from his departmental ofiicers before paying over mo!'ey to t~e person who claimed to be entitled to It. Having made those inquiries, the :\Linister had discharged his duty, and paid it <;>vor. That ,,·as a discharge to him. But If 1t hanpcned tha.t the mon?y were paid to a wr~ng per·1on, then there were means of redrc·s which the right person could take against the person to \'chom the money was paid. If such a protection \1 ere not con­tained in the measure. some people might regard the Gon'rnmpnt, or the J'IIini~ter, as a O'Q(;d 1nark to ·· Ltkc do,vn," and In that wa; the Government, or the Minister, might be "defra-uded by someone coming and saying he was the agent for another person who authorised him to get the money. 'I'ho money would be handed ove1', and the other fellow could come along and f cty he had given no authorit;·.

Mr. 11ACIRTXEY: Is not everybody in that l"'"ition '?

The PRE;wii~R: I\'o, and everybody might not have the means of making inquiries that a Government department ha.d. If there were anv actual doubt, no doubt the Minister would p"ay the money into court, that wa.s if thNe \\'ere suspicion or doubt of any lond. But it \1 as necessary to ha vc this provision as a general proic'0 tion. so that frauds could not be committed. That was the only pur­pc.,e of it. It did not ta.kc a.way any dis­c•·etion of prerogative that the Crown would have or the Government would have to com­pencate if the actual chimant of the money were absolutely depriver! of it.

Mr. MACART:\"EY: According to the way in which Government departments were car­ried on, he thought it would have to be a. v<•ry smart man who would get payment to which he was not cntitlccl. He thought the Government did not require, that protection, and it phccd the MinistN, and the delegates of the> :'llinistc- ·. in a better position. and a pcsit1on in which any ordinary busine,4s man or anY other institution would not be placed. Ar1 ordinary business rna.n, a bank, o:· other financial instih<tion had to exercise reasonable care in its transactions, and, if pavmpnt were made to the wrong person under a forged cheque, the bank was held lia blc. 'This Bill was seeking ·to put the

State Enterprises Bill. [21 AUGUST.] State Enterprises Bill. 1609

Minister in an absolutely different position to any institution or person carrying on business, and that was not fair or reason­able. Then there was another point of view. The Minister would be carrving on business and had to produce his accounts to an officer of the Auditor-General's Depart­ment. Any receipts signed-it did not matter b_y whom-if they purported to be a dis­<.:hargc for mon<'Y, they had to be accepted by the Auditor-General. 'I'hat was one of the effects of the clause.

Th l'RE\!IER: It is only a discharge in <·asn. motwy is paid by the Minister. The Aud1tor-Gencral would see that the money \VR~ paid, at, all events.

Mr. :\IACAHTC\EY: Under this clause, if the• ~1Iiuister produced a· receipt to the Auditor-General-it might be signed by the ·office boy-it -v. as a dis,:barge for the 1noney.

The PRE \IlER : But the Auditor-General would h.•ve to sati8f• himself that the :';1inistc· paid the money to somebody. He ·would have to see, in the book-, that it was )laiJ to somebody.

Mr. 1L\C:.\RTNEY: This clausn srrvs that ~ rcc<>ipt for money signed b:· any ·person le. an a bcolute discharge for the money.

The PRK'IER: It says: " For any moneys paid nnd~r this Ad." It would have to be two thing·.-a receipt, and money paid, both.

1\Ir. MACATtTXEY: The receipt was primi\ facie.

The l'RE'>'IER: Xow you are bringing in voints of law.

C\Ir. ?\IACARTC\EY: The hon. gentleman lmcw as much of the law as he did. It was giving an unfair protection to the Minister a· ar;ain't ordinary business persons, and 1w did not agr<'e with it.

11r. G. P. BARXES: The Premier was not recognising tht• a'vkward conditions which had arisen owing to the fact that the -Uovernnlent "~--ere entering into Ya rious Pntcrpriscs, and now they wished to protect themselves from the ordinary disabilities which affected th.e individual in curying on trade. He maintained that the explanation given bv the Premier had an extremelv ser­ious "'l;r•ct._ and that was, th~t it practically put a premmm upon wrongdomg; the wrong individual could be put up in order to 1'0~e1iYe 1noncy or pay moneys, as the C'ase mu:~·nt l.\\.

The PREMIER: How is that'?

Mr. G. P. BARXES: Because that indi­vidual rP.ight be an individual of straw, and the only redress in consequence of the l!lon~y having been paid to the wrong indi­Yidual was against the individual himself, who n\ight not have the wherewithal to repuv. ·n might be perfectly useless to o.tteuti,t to take procedure against the indi­vidual who might have received the money. Re mainto.ined that if the Government intended to take a step into the ordinary business arena, they should carry on thei!· business under existing legal and rightful ;;onditions.

Mr. MACARTXEY: He would like to refer to a Savings Bank transaction which took place some years ago, wherein a resi­·dent in Queensland deposited as a security the Savings Bank book with a person who was going to spend certain money on behalf of that person. The advance was made. The book was retained as a security. He

was not referring to the time when this Government wore in power. He did not want to make any reflection on the Government Savings Bank as at present constituted. The person who had deposited that Savings Bank book was enabled to get money out of the Savings Bank and get clear of the arrange­ments that he had made through the inter­vention of a supporter of the party now in power. The receipt, of course, given to the Government Savings Bank would be a com· plete clischarve. No doubt there was a pro­vision under the Government Savings Bank "\et to the like effect.

The I'REoliER : Which Act?

11r. MACARTXEY: He was speaking of the previous Act.

The l'RE'\IIER: That shows that one of the Acts of the previous Government had some defect.

1lr. MACARTNEY: It had been done under the administration of a previous Governm"nt. He would not say whtther it h :, :l been done by the Yiinister or by the overseers of the Savings Bank, but it was alvolutcly an improper thing to do. It was an injustice to a resident of the State. The dause at present under discussion gave the Minister the right to say whether, perhaps, a hu.obancl or \vifo could get the money or whether a father or son could get it. It allowed the Minister to do what was ob· viously an improper thing, and was an unfair position to place him in.

Clause 13 put and passed.

On clause 14-:Mr. PETRIE moved the omission on line

30, subclause (4), of the word "Minister" with a vie ,v to insNting the words-'' Committee aforesaid appointed." Subclause (1) already provided- .

" With respect to any State enterprise established after the passing of this Act, the capital cost thereof shall be deter­mined and declared bv a committee con­sisting of the Auditor-General, the Under Sc'm·<,tary to the 'fTcasury, and some per­son nominate-d in that behalf by the Min­ister as soon as possible after the first capital expenditure theroon rs com­plete."

Subclause (2) also provided that-" Accretions to capital cost or extra­

ordinarv losses of capital in connection with ail'y State enterprise, whether estab­lished before or· after the passing of this Act, shall be determined and declared by the aforesaid committee as and when :;;urh accretions or losses shall occur."

If the committee were to deal with the capi­tal co't and also the extraordinary losses of any capital in connection with those State enternriscs, he thought it should read that "the' committee aforesaid should determine thc> amount of ordinarv depreciation of the a"'cts of each State "enterprise, and such detf'rmination shall be acted on." He thought it must have been a misprint, and that :t had been intended to put in "the committee aforesaid appointed." It seemed to him that it was quite a reasonable amend­ment. He moved accordingly.

The PREMIER : H~ did not think there was any nece,,ity for the amendment. The Minister was the person responsible in con­nection with the matter, and he was assisted bv the Auditor-General, who went through the accounts. The only person who would

Hon. T. J. Ryan.]

1610 State Enterprises Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] State Enterprises Bill.

not be included there was the Under Secre­tary to the Treasury. He thought it was a proper thing that the Minister in charge of the matter, who was re,ponsible to Par!ia­mf'nt, should have the right to say with respect to each enterprise w h~.t was the proper amount of the depreciation to be written off. He was not able to follow the arguments of the hon. member for Toom­bul too ciear!,-, seeing that the Auditor­General dealt with the accounts. He did not quite RC<' the point the hon. member wa·, trying to make. Clause 14 stat8d-

" 'With respect to any State enterprise established after the passing of this Act, the capital cost thereof shall be deter­mined and declared bv a committee con­,,i,tinv of the Auditor-General, the Under Secretary to the 'Treasury, and some pet·.on nominated in that behalf by the Mini·,ter as soon as po,sible after the first capital "Xpcnditure thereon is com­plete."

According to that the committee only dealt with the fixing of the· capii::tl cost and any addition to tbe canital. whereas subclause (4) rlE>alt with the ;;t;wunt of ordinary depre­ciation of the assets of each State enterprise.

:\1r. PETRIE: lY1v idea is to ensure that be;ing giYen effect 'to.

Th0 PREMIER: He could see what the amendment would mean. but ho could not '"'e any proper principle underlying the . wwndmcnt. Ho thought it would be the l.lOro proper course for the :Minister to have the responsibility cast upon him. It was really cccst upon the Cabinet.

i\11. l\IAr.\RTNEY: I would like to see where that is.

The PRE:UIER: The hon. gentleman must know that in prrrctice where power was given to a :\IinistPr in respect to certain matters, that discretion \\as exercised after con ultation with the Cabinet.

Mr. G. P. BARKES: The Minister, when a case \\as prc,sentQd to him, might give a decision without referring to those who were in pos-,ession of all the facts concerning the mattPr. ~finif.tcrs were busy people. Tak<l th<e Prem!Cr h1mself. Ko one would accuse the hon. gentleman of being impulsive. He took it that the hon. gP'JtlE>man aB a rule acterl on principle and not on impulse, but some other Minister might be less cautious.

'The PRE1UER : 'I' hat dol'· not apply to any Minist0r I have had any Pxperience of.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: The hon. gentle­nwn's expf?rience as a :1-linistor was not so very wide, and who knew but that he might have a different team any day?

'I' he PREi\JIER : Arc you trying to create dissension?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: With the conferences sitting .\bOY(' and b;?lo'i·;, one ne...-er knew what detNrnination would be arrived at. 'I'he Minister might be pressed very hard in connection Y.ith some matter, and it might, be neces,ary for him to Le strengthened in some way, and he could delay giving a deci­f;ion by saying: ''This is a ~:natter that has to cmne h.fore the coinn1ittcc." He vvas sure, that many a business manager ha·d been verv thankful when he had bE>en able to say: "Ti1is is not a persomt! matt~;r. This is' a Il'atter that my board must decide." The Minister wo~1ld be very considerably strengthened If the matter had to be r(l­ferred to the committee, and surely with

[Hon. T. J. Ryan.

such a committee as ·the one created under th,. Bill there need be no doubt about refer­ring to them any question.

Mr. MACARTNEY: The amendment ought to be accepted, as otherwise there might be a temptation to the Minister to write off depreciation or not, just according to the balance-sheet of the year, in order to show a profit. A Ministerial balance-sheet was verY much more important than the balance-sheet of a trading concern, because it underlies .t political purpose. It under­lies the matter submitted to the electors at thn next electicns.

The PREoHER: · Then they could gauge wheth• r the Minister allows enough.

Thir. MACARTNEY: The amendment >:ould allow the question to b<;l submitted tG the cumtTittee as the ~finister might have no knowledge of the subject-m!1tte1· at all. ThP Minister had power to a ppomt a general manager and QXperts, and it would be more reascnable to !eavP all matters of that sort to the committee raised by the Government themselves.

The PHK.\TTEn: Oi course there is a clause ,. hich gives us certa!n pc;nvers to maJ<e an alteration of that kmd 1f we find tt be­coines necee.:~~ary.

71Ir. :\IACARTNEY : The hon. gentlei_IIan realiserl that the Government had legisla­tiv<' power which he (Mr. Macartney) obj0cted to pr0viously .

'I'Iw PnE~rTER: 'fhis is admini,trative.

Mr. MACARTNEY: And they might very mnch relax the protection which the schedul~ provided. 'I'hat was what he expected. At an'· rate, power had b<een given to_ the Go­vernment to carrv on those enterprises, and it '~as not a reasonable thing that they should he.ve eyery protection.

Amendment put and negatived; and clause pu c and passed.

On clause 15-" Re1er-re funds"-

Nfr. PETltiE moved the omission on li_ne 35 of the words " as he thinks proper," wtth th- view of inserting the words " the com­mitt"e q1pointed may recommend." H~ was c.n-y the P1·emier had_ not accepted the

arnc::chnent on the previous clauEB, as then t.hr· responsibility would hav~ been shared l;,- the c"mmittee. The amendment would reJie,·e the ;\linister of a certain amount of reeponeibility if he had the committee to r(:fcr tn.

The PREMIER : The same argument ~hat applied t'l his opposition to the prevwus ,,,,,p1,dmc·1t ap•1lied to that ame1_1dment. The suhcl,wse of the schedule pronded-

" 'The Minister may, out of the net profits of any State enterpns~ <arned rhuing any year, set apart or Invt'St or dherwise deal with mch sum as he thinks proper towards a re~erye fund for meeting losses and deprectatwn, and for ''xt ,·os ions of business. and for su~h other purposes as he deems necessary.

In the nrcvious clause the Minister deter­mine-d the amount of depreciation, !111-~ if he determined the amount of depreCiatiOn he should aho determiue the amount to be set Lsirle to meet th0 t depreciation. He thought hem. member,; would see the force of that are;ument. He could quite unclerstan~ if the previous amendment had b~en earned the hon. member might have said that in so.me respects that amendment was consequential,

State Enterprises Bill. [21 AUG1JST.] Sttpply. l61I

lmt the previous amendment having been defeated, that amendment, if carried, would bring about a position he did not desire to bCJ brought about, that was one authority f."ing the depreciation and another author­ity Fltying how much should be set aside to meet the depreciation. He could not accept th., amendment.

Amendment put and negatived; and clause pm and passed.

Clauses 16 to 18, both inclusive, put and passed.

On dame 19-" Delirery of rnatters in possc,,sion of employee at rf m oval"-

Mr. MACARTNEY: He would like to say a word or two in connection with "that cl a use and clause 21. It was not made to aJ>pear on the face of it nor in the marginal r:Gte, but it appeared that clanse 19 would give the Minister power that a subject would not po,sess in regard to property of an insolvent or property taken in execution. He did not know whether that was intended or not, but it seemed to him it was going to giv<:> the Minister special power in that respect. and clatF,e 21, although the marginal note made no rderence to it. seemed to go far enough to put special difficulties in the wn.v of an action brought against the Min­iskr carrying on State enterprises that would not exist in the case of private enter­prise He dkl not know whether that was int,,nded or not.

The PREMIER : I do not think so.

l\1'·- MACARTNEY: It seemed to him to ha''P that efiect. The Minister was a cor­poration soic, and nec0ssarilY it followed the :Minister would have to be the person sued in connection with a breach of contract or an action for damages.

The PRE~JIER: The same power is given to the Railwav Commissioner and also to the Savings n:wk Commissioner.

Mr. MACARTNEY: He quite understood that the Premier could always producG a similar clause in another Act. There was no body in competition with the Commis­sioner fol' Railway,. The Railway Commis­sicner 'Y::tB carrying on a In ono poly, and in thal C'lf-!0 the GoYornn1ent were carrying on a State Pnt.rprise in competition with pri­Y~ttf enterprise.

The PmmrER: This is onl:v to prevent any­l:cdy takin~ away the property of the Go­Ycrnrnent.

2\fr. :·IACARTNEY: It did more than that. Under clause 21 no action could be bought a !J'a inst the Minister under certain condition-.. That was a condjtion that '· pj}ied in regard to no other person. Gcnr-ralh speaking, fhr provisions of the Bill put the Government in a better posi­tion than an:y privatf' individual. Th,,t was not· l fair thing. If the Government claimed that they could make a success of their enterprises, it was only b;>· reason of the fact tl·at the~· wero in a different position with rcvnrrl to all the material facts to pGrsons Cfn:ying- on private ente1·prise. The Go­vo·nmcnt wn·e seeking too much protection and were not dealing fairlY to those with wlwn1 they ere competing·,~

The PRE:l!IER: That is a misapprehension. Clan··" put and passed. Claauses 20 to 23, both inclusive, put and

passed.

[7 p.m.] The HousP rr;mmed. The CnAIRi\IAN re­ported the Bill to the House without amend­ment.

The third reading of the Bill was made an (>rder of the Day for to-morrow.

LA~D 'TAX ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

FREE CONFERENCE.

The SPEAKER announced the rec~ipt of the following meuage from the Legislative Council:-

'· ;l(r. Speaker,-" The Legislative Council having con­

siclercd tlw Leg-islativE;) Assembly's mes­sage, of date the 18th July, intimating that they disagree to the amendments made by the Council in the Land Tax .'cot Amendment Bill, requc•·t a free con­ferenc·· wi·ch the Legislative Assembly, with a view of arriving at a mutual agrAernent with respect to the said amendments.

"The LcgiRlativE' Council appoint the Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn, the Hon. T. M. Hall, and the Hon. P. J. Leahy to be the managers to represent them at such conference, a.nd they nanB No. 1 Committee Room, Legislative Council, to be the nlace, and 12 o'clock noon on Thumdav, ·the 22nd instant, to be the hour and day of meeting of such con-ference.

"\V. HA)IIJ"TON, " President.

"Legislative Council Chamber. ".Brisbane, 21st August, 1918."

On the motion of the PREMIER, the fol­lowing message was ordQrcd to be returned to the Legislative Council:~

" :\lr. President.-" 'I'he Legislative Assembly having

had nnder consideration the moosage of the Legislative Council of this day's date. requesting a free conference on the ·Land Tax Act Amendment Bill, beg now to intimate that they-

" .\gree to the proposal contained in the message.

" The Legislative As~c.mbly appoint the Hon. T. J. R··an and the Hon. E. G. 'Thqodore to be the managers to re­nre,ent them at such free conference, but name 2 o'clock on Thursday, the 22nd instant, to be the hour and day of meeting of such conference. "Legislative As•.~mbly Chamber.

" Brisbune, 21st August, 1918."

SUPPLY

FrxAxCIAL STATE'YIE:-l'r-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

(Jfr. BeTtram, JJim·ee, in the chair.)

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I would like to· preface any remarks I ha ye to n;ake . to­nig-ht by saying that the difficulty IS farrl,Y great in having to deal with the Treasm:er g.

Statement in the absence of the Auditor­General's report.

The TREASL'RER : V Pry se)dom is the Auditor-General's report avmlable at the­srme time as the Financial Statement.

Hon. W. H. Barn!'~.]

1612 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

HoN. \V. H. BARNES: The Minister is altogether wrong, seeing that u~ually the practice has been for the Auditor-General's Teport to be furnished before the Financial Statem~nt is tabled.

The TREASURER: Not usual. It is over ten years since it has been done.

HoK. W. H. BARXES: At any rate, I say it is a distind disadvantage to have to deal with an important statement in the absence -of the Auditor-Gqneral' s report, and I can \Yell remember the Premier, when he was in opposition, making a request that such shculd be the case.

The TREA9URER: I do not think that you delivered your Financial StatE)ment once after the Auditor-General's report was tabled-not once.

HoK. \-V. H. BARKES: It may be so. At any rate, I am only following the argu­ment that was frequently used, that it is a distinct disadvantage, bearing in mind the fact that there are so many State enterprises, and particul';rlY bearir:g in mind that the figures sometrmes supplied by the Treasurer and thos<; coming from the Auditor-General .do not agrf'2,

Howenr, I shall proceed to go through the Statement. I quitD realise that dealing with figures is not one of the most pleasing things tha\' a sp<;aker can undertake, but all the same I shall proceed to go carefully through the figures in the Statement. Be­fore I do that, I want to say that it seems to me that the Financial Statement delivered by the '.rreasurer yesterday is a statement that is practically _deYoi cl of any dealing "Jth the hrger affarr, of the State. Prac­tically its Alpha and Omega is State entqr­prise. It seems to me that it is deficient in those larger things which have to do with this great State. C\ow, I want to deal first of all with the quf·stion of the revenue t.) which the Hon. the Tn:asurer has rderred in his Statement. l notice that he received £238,853 more than he anticipat<;d when he -delivered his Statement in 1917. In other \Yord», notwithstanding the criticisms that were made agaim.t another place, the fact remains that thf' Treasurer r<;ceived a verv large sum in excess of what he expected. He estimated the amount of probable revenue at £8,252,629, and h<; received £8,491,482. There is one thing I notice in looking through the Statement-that the Treasurer has included in the revenue account certain it~ms the inclusion of which he used to always denoun<'e when sitting on this si-de of the House. We used to be told when we included, for instance, cash sales from land, that it was a most improper thing to do. Apparently, if our <;xP-mple was a b:td one, the Treasurer has followed it.

The TREAScRER : You started a lot of bad practices.

Hox. W. H. BARNES: Yes. I notice that a number of our practices, whether good or bad, have been most consistently followed by the Treasurer. Apparently, he regards them as being not only bad prac­tices, as he sa~·s. but practices, at any Tate, that were sensible; he seems to be following them whether they a.re good or bad. I only pointed it out because criticism used to come in that particular -clirection-criti­·cism which was raised by every member of the then Opposition when the Denham Go­-vernment were in power. However, that

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

io what is happening to-day. I want the public to realise exactly what is happening in thaL regard. Then I notic<J that, notwith­sb,nding the increased amount that came from revenue-according to the tables of the hon. gentleman-the excess expenditure upon the estimates had to keep pace. I find that £151,693 was spent in excess of the esti­mate, the amount estimated being £8,749,241, whilst the amount spent was £8,900,934. I shrrrt show, I think, before I sit down t?­night, that these are times when the public purse should be safeguarded, when economy and care should be exercised in the adminis­tration of the affairs of the State.

'The TREASt.:RER: \Ve could have prevented that excess by giving no relief to the charit­able institutions.

Hox. vV. H. BAR~ES: I notice that the holl. niPmbrr ahvavs trots ont the 'vido,vs and orphans or som"ething of the kind. That doe< not ·catch on, and he will have to get some other catch phrase to deal with ,ome of tl1e'.e matters. Thc·n I- find, in looking at the details of the Statement delivered by the hon. gentleman, that in connection with revenue account income tax amounted to £167,421 more than the utimate. The hon. gentleman made a Yery great 'ong about what the other place were not doing last year, and he \va.s ~o·)t an2fious tn obtain from revenue account, rn th~ snape of direct bxa'ion, through income tax, an ii~tn''''"etl an1ount: but the i:-1er0ased atnount c-•me, notwithstanding that fact, and he obtaincd-ag;aiu I repeat-£167.421 m,ore than he had estimated. Then I notice, too. that laud revenue, taking it in the aggregate­there were s,-_,veral shrinkage·, in connection with land-provided £16.000 more than was estimated.

1'Ir. PETERSOK : l\iore selection. Hox. \V. H. BARC\ES: Xc:. I think it

will lee found that that interjection is not correet. Then I notice that "Other Receipts" were responsible for £27.000 exces• over the <:stimate. I want to noint out the difference b•.+wecn the past -Administration-which sometimes has been held up to ridicule by members of this HouS•'-and the present G-overnn1cnt. in the .shape of djrect taxation. I think I shall be able to show that the threatr·ned policv of the Premier at every point is b<'ing 'carried out. The Premier ~aid that hi~ poliey was to squeeze the people.

The PRE~!IER: );o'·'·· that is not true. You know it is not true. ,

Hox. W. H. B.\R);ES: Well, I do not know. I think when people are squeezed they squeal. Poosibly I did not use qu!te the correct term. At any rate, the Prormor said it was one of his objects to make the people squeal.

The PRE:I!IE:t:: I never said that. HoK. W. H. BARNES : Parliament,ry

rules, of course, say that I must accept that stat-ement.. It is apparent that the hon. member somewhere has been misreported.

The PRE~!IER : Where? Produce the report.

HoK. W. H. BARNES: At any rate, I accE'pt-as. of course. I must-the Premier's statement in this Honse; and we can have our own thoughts in connection with it. C\ow, what is the position? The income tax which the Liberal Government received in 1915 amounted to £517.000. When I say the Liberal Government, I refer to the last eleven months; they went out of office a

[21 AUGUST,] Supply. 1613-

month before the end of the financial vear. Then what followed? In 1916 the Labour Government received from. income tax £766,000. In 1917 thev received £756.000 and in 1918-that is th'e financial year ·just ended at 30~h June-they received £967,000. As the p:JsltJOn stands at present, the Govern­ment has received from income tax alone for the yr·u 1917-18, a sum almost as great as that 0btamcd bv the last Liberal Govern­ment from all taxation sources in 1914-15-vi;... £'?54.000. It is marvellous how the expenditure has jumped up.

:\fr. HARTLE'i : · Y on left so much for us to [J.ty in wag·es, with the low wages you paid.

Hmr. W. H. BAR.l'\ES: The Treasurer in his. Statement cays he hopes to receive frcm mcome tax alone, for the year ending 30th J nne next, £1,154,000, or cxactlv £200,000 more than the Denham Gov<m1-nwnt received from all taxation.

The TREASt:RER: This is a more equitable system than you had.

. Ho;;. \Y: ~- BAR:::-JES: The hon. gentle­man says It Js more equitable. It is a good thing to have an excuse. The Treasurer. so he thinks. has a good excuse. The fact remams that taxation has been piled upon the co_mmunity at an alarming rate, and, accordmg to t~c population basis, comparing C:u~ensland with the other State this will l),, the biggest revenue that has bedn obtained from taxation sources bv anv State in the Commonwealth. I do not lmo'w whether that i" a good advertisement to hase. I have an imnression that it is rather a bad adver­tirement for any State to let people know that the amount of money which is being re, e!ved from taxation is greater than is recprved by any other State in the Common­wealth. And let me say that this is the State where there should be no need of that, be-cause of our. large export trade. which, surely, makes It unnecessary, with proper care. that such fearful taxation should be imposed by the present Government.

Now, what is the position to-da~- with regard to another matter dealt with in the Statement? I refer just now to the land tax. Just let us compar<', too. the no,ition to-dav with what it ,,, as wh,'n the Denham Govern­ment were in office. This afternoon we were dealing with t;''Xation from local authoritie~. and we saw that the position had changed absolutely as far as concerns the taxation from th'lt particular source. Xow what is the position to-day? In 1915, I 'am very thankful to be able to say, there was no such thmg as a land tax in Queensland, other than the tax-which we alwavs con­tended was in the form of a land tax­through the local authorities. But no direct land tax had been imposed upon the people b:: the Liberal Government. They had been able to finance and end their term of office showing credit balances all throw·h the term. o

Mr. FOLEY: Bv starving public works. (Government mterjoctions.)

HoN. W. H. BARXES: It is all wrv well for hon. members on the other side t'o sav we starved public works. As a matter of fact, we did not do so. \Ye were noted for the activities which prevailed in connection with public enterprise. I am quite prepared to admit that they were not State enterprises as we know of to-day ; but they were enter­prises which were going in the direction of h~lping the dev<>lopment of this great State. \'i'hat do we find now? Instead of a number

of railways being opened, look at· the num­ber opened last year! We find that all the strength of the Government, apparently, is· being put into State enterprises such as butchers' shops, and undertakings of that kind, and neglecting tho larger and more important interests of the State.

Let me draw attention to the fact that the land tax commenced in 1916, the amount obtained from that source being £246,000; in 1917, £362,000 waR obtained; and in 191& the amount was £344,000. In the coming :vcar the Treasurer, according to :1is own Statement, expects to get £452,000 from this particular source.

l\Ir. FOLEY: Hear, hear!

HoN. W. H. BARNES: It is all very well for some hon. members to say: '' Hear, hear l" It is quite possible for taxation to pro "eed at such a pace that you wili prac­tically tax people out of existence, and I want to know if that will be good for the communitY. ::\1av I draw the attention of the Comn1ittce to something which I regard fLo a vcn' important factor, and which should be carefullv noted bv the Committee. The n'venue fr;n1 two so~trc~.:::;-land and income­taxation-has amounted, on the average, to nearly £569,666 pr:r annum mort: than the previous Government had to spend That shows that the deficiencies which the Govern­ment have had have not been brought about because there has been a tight revenue. I can well remember that in years past when financial stringency took place, it was brought about through a depleted revenue; but in this case, when there is an increased revenue the Government seem to have a desire to spend it. I woulrl not object so much if thev lived within their means. If you look at the re,·cnue and the expenditure per head, you will find that the Government are receiving so much more per hea.d, plus the amount which they receive from the Commonwealth, and they are spending an amount per head very much greater than the an1ount they are reeeiYing. I assnn1e that I am speaking to some hon. 1nernbers who are businPss men; and it will be admitted that no busine··s a.ncl no State, can prosper a long the lines of continually spending more than ~'ou receive. [t is really the high road to ruin horn a financial point of view. It is abmlutely a dangerous course to follow.

I want to draw attention to another state of things. The total direct taxation for tile coming ~-ea.r will,. on the Government esti­mate alone, amount to £2.151,000 The Treamrcr. on page· 13 of his FinanciaJ State­ment, st Jtes that during this year he expects to reeeiv<' £2,154.000, or more than twice what it was in 1914-15, from direct taxation. One would scarcelv think tha.t it would be pof'sib10 for f'Yen SnPh a ri'-'h State such as Queensland to have piled upon it this in­<'r<>ased taxation at the alarming rate which the Government have piled it on.

I want to deal with a matter which the Treasurer directly referred to in connecti,m with the present state of the finances and the state of the finances originallv. The position of these balances. judging· by the official Statement which I hold m nw hand, will show that. as far as the public balanees were concerned, they were originally ab,so .. lutely satisfactory.

The TREASURER: You want t-o give the balances at the end of May.

Hon. W. H. Barn~s.]

1614 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

... Hox. W. H. BAR:'I<ES: I will :siv-e the

balances to the end of June, according to the non. gentleman's own Statement. I am <(oing to deal with this matter in my own '\Vav.

:.\Ir. O'Sur.LIVA:\: Yes, in your own tinpot way.

Hox. W. H. BARI\"ES: Let me say that if it is a tinpot way, it is a tinpot way furnished by the department. The pubhc balances at the 30th April, 1915, are shown in this i:'>tatement which I will read.

The TREASURER: That is when v-ou wore Ftill in office; you Were in a month after that.

Hox. W. H. BARNES : The Statement shows the position to have been as follows:-

PuBLIC BALAXCES, 30th APRIL, 1915. D'f'. £ s. a.

Bank of England Q.X Bank­

Extended De­posit

Current 152,646 18 11

A c-count ... 2,075,902 18 6

JB s. d. 215,725 19 7

----- 2,228,549 17 5 'Treasurv N otcs

Coin · ... . .. Ag'ent GE'neral-

30,956 0 0

Current Ac-COU!Jt 24,136 15 4

For Deposit with Bank of England 200,000 0 0

224,136 15 4 Australian Bank of Cam-

merce, fixed deposit, etc. 56,129 0 0 };uglish, Scottish, and A us-

tralian Bank, extended de-posit 1,365 0 0

Commonwealth Bank, fixed deposit 150,000 0 0

London Bank of Australia, fixed deposit 50,000 0 0

Bank of North Queensland, fixed deposit 30,000 0 0

Gold Coin (held at Treasury) 350,000 0 0

£3,336,862 12 4 Cr.

Consolidated Revenue ... Loan Account Governn1ent Savings

568,576 2 7 2,006, 761 17 0

Bank Account ... .. . 3,324, :J72 3 4

30,956 0 0 Treasury Notes Acconnt Gov-cmm0nt Savings Bank­

Inscribed Stock Account

Less Dr. Balances-Tru't Funds 2,892,578 15 Trcasurv Bills

Accou'nt 100 0

298.275 4

£6,229,541 7

1

0 2,892,678 15

£3,336,862 12

6

5

1

4

Thai· was the position of the public accounts on 3Gth April, the last month we were in offi<:-e. It is true that we ran through pretty well to the end of May, ,the election taking place in :fria:v. The hon. gentleman makes a staterr.ent that the figures in May were different.

The TREASURER : They were different to those you quoted.

Hox. W. H. BARNES: Of e,ourse they "·ere different to those I quoted. But these

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

are the June figures I will quote now, at the end of the financial year, and furnished by the hon. gentleman himself. Does the hon. gentleman say that these figures are not correct?

The TREASt.:RER: They were correct because they were supplied by this Government. They disclosed the position that you had left when vou went out of office at the end of Mav. "

Hox. W. H. BARNES : The Treasurer does not like it.

The TRE\St:RER : ·why don't you quote the figures at the end of May?

Hox. W. H. BARNES: I am quoting from the Treasurer's report, Table E, page 477, in the journals of the House for that year, and it shows the correct balance of .£2,157.757. These are not my figures; they are the Treasurer's figures. That was the position of the Loan ~\ccount at the end of June, a month after we went out of office.

The TREASURER: You said £3,000,000.

Hox. W. H. BAR::\'ES: The hon. gentle­man is absolutely wrong. What I said was that it was about £2.300,000, and that state­ment ;, correct. I want to clear that up, becau .,e the Treasurer put words into his Financial Statement which I say are not correct so far, at any rate, as the position of the accounts were on the 30th of April, and again from his own figures of 30th June, 1915.

'The TREASURER: On page 958 of "Han­sar·d" you will find that you said you left £3,000,000 in the Loan Fund.

Hox. W. H. BARNES: I will be able to show you that you made some statements to this House which are absolutdy incorrect.

I will now deal with the Railway Depa.rt­ment, and I can only say that the position of this big earning department Is absolutely deplorable.

Mr. FOLEY: What about the men getting a~ increase in wages?

HoN. W. H. BARNES: The fact that the railways are in such a deplorable condition to-day from a financial point of view is due to political influence. It is due to the in­fluence engineered again and again on the other side. IV e know that the late Commis­sioner, .Mr. Evans, was not allowed to have that control of the rail wa.ys which he should have had. I am reminded that there is an hon. member sitting opposite who at one time said that if he only had an opportunity he could save a quarter of a million in the Railway Department.

Mr. KIRWAX: \Vrong again.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I am told that the hon. member said that he could save £200,000, yet on looking through the report of the Railway Commission I cannot find that the hon. gentleman made any recom­mendation to that effect. His statement did not hold water at all. Let us deal with the actual loss en the railways during the last two or three vears. This Committee has the right earne;tly and seriously to look at the position of the railways to-day. What is the position? The actual loss on the rail­ways in 1914-15, when the Liberal Govern­ment were in office, was £1.963. In 1916-17 the loss was £744,000, and in 1917-18 the loss amounted to £1,041,471. These figures a.re absolutely startling. They are startling

Supply. [21 AUGUS1', J Supply. 1615

:figures mving to tho fact that we are face to face with a condition in the Railway Department-a department which should be a mo,t important factor in the dcye!opment

•of Queensland-we are faced with the position that the ra,ilways are going backwards finan­dally. I will show by comparison that ·Queensl:lnd is cxc<?ptional in th<Jt pa,·ticular regard. The net income from the railwavs in QueemJand in 1914-15 totalled £1,379,35.5, whil(• in 1916-17 it fell a\\ ay to £835,389. I ·do not !:now what the n<?t income from the railways is going to be this year. I will make a comparison between Queensland and the othP>· States. The increascJ amounts -drawn from the traffic in Queensland last year amounted to £186.GGO. What was the amount in New South \Vale"? It ca.nnot be a,rgued that the· fares were not increased in Queensland.

The TREASURER: Thev \V ere not increased laEt year. ~

Hox. W. H. BAR::'\ES: This Government have increased the fares since the~· came into office.

The TREASURER: Kat last vear. The SECRETARY l!'OR PUBLr'c I".9TRUCTIOK :

<Only infinitesimal.

Hox. W. H. BARXES: 'I he Minister for Public Instruction is chipping in but he had better lewo it to the Treasur~r a,nd he will be all ri£ht. The increased amount of revenue from traffic in Kew South \Vales last year was £483,000, or 46 per cent. of the total !'<:'Venue increase. In Victoria it was ~699.000, or seven-eighths of the tota,l revenue 1ncrease.

The TREASURER : They increased the freights there.

Mr. BEBBIKGTON : So did you. The TRF\SURER: Ko. Mr. BEBBINGTON : Y 0s. You put an m­

crease of 43 per cent. on dairy produce.

The CHAIRMA::'IJ: Order : Order!

.IIox. W. H. BARKES .' The figures I have g1ven show that the ra!lwa.vs in the other States have been large contributors to the !·evenue. Apparently there have been other mflucnces at work in Queensland which pre­vented the r~ilways from doing what they mtght otherwise have done in connection with the financial affairs of this State. There is another phase of the question to look at. The percentage of working expenses to the gross earnings in two years increased from 62.7 to 78.14 per cent. That incr<•ase cannot be ;aid to be due to any increase in mileage

. of ra1lwa;·s. I admit there has been an increase in the mileage, but the increase in the working expenses is not due to that. An attempt has been made to r<?duce the number o0f trains in certain dire 'tions, so that as a matter of fad, the expenditure has go'ne up on one hand and the facilities to the public haYe been reducAd on the other hand. That is the position with rega.rd to the railways. Nohvithstanding that,. the workir,g staff has increased from 10,689 to 11,313 and that after making allowance for thos~ who have gone to the front. I should be false to my oeomictions if I did not say that the Rail­way Department and their officm·s have done "Splendidly in connection with their gifts, not only of ma,terial, but their gifts of men at the front. Notwithstanding the number of men who have left, there has been, in my judgment, a large increase in the number

of men who have been employed. I think that the Railway Department has very largely been made the dumping-ground, not fer the classified officer and the h1an who has done so well for the Railway Department, but in other directions. That \Yill account for the big increa,se which occurs in con­nection with the working expenses. I am quite pn~pa n~d to arlrnit, as the Commis~ sioner say• in his report, that the increase to some extent was due to the eight-hour drry. I am also prepared to admit tha,t the Co1nmissioncr baid there wer£' certain extra costs at ""'Jrk.

The TREAS'CRER : A quarter of a million.

HoN. \Y. H. BARNES: Perha,ps tbe hon. gent!Pman is right. 'l'he duty of this House, and the duty of Ministers. is to see, if possible, so far as the railways are concerned, if proper economies cannot be mnde.

The TREASL"RER: \Vould you sack the men or reduce their wages?

Hox. W. H. BARNES: I would not think for one moment of sacking useful men, but if the service is oYermanned the Govern· ment of the day have to face their respon­"ibilitiPs in that direction. I venture to think that in some direction the railiYaV ser­vice is oyern1anned, and it is overma'llncd, not by the classified officer who has come up from the bottom, but by men who have been put in there and who do not understand their business. No man who has anv know­ledge of the railway service generally can say other than this: that the railway ser­vants in Queensland a,re absolutely as com­petent and just as obliging ae those of the other States. but the department has been made a vehicle for Ministers to get over some of their difficulties with their numerous friend~.

I want v, touch now on another question ·dealt with bv the Treasurer in his State­ment. T want to rleal with the qtwstion of agricu:tnre. T1w fal!ing--off tLat there ha'< bEen is one of those tl1ings which is very much more important to my judgment than the question of State enterprises, because it wili be a serious thing for this great State if \ve continue thP f'hrinkage as far as getting people en the land is concerned. I v;.nturc to say that the yery prosperity of tlle State cle!ocnds upon the settlement of our lands, and j£ 1nen are gain~ to gravitate from t.he country to the citi<"' it is going to be disastrouf to the cities and it is going to be disctstrons to the countrv. Is it a good thing in the interests of the community that th<?re should be any shrinkage in that direction ? \Ye should strai!l every nerve and everv effort to seP that induccments are held out· to men to go on the land rather than to bring them into the cities. I say emphatic-ally that the trend of the Govern­ment's .1.dministration has been not to get I·0ople to go on the larod but 1ather to get people to .~ome into the cities. They might !JOt have done it wilfull,·, but that has been· the absolute r<'stdt of their administration. l\1en ha ,-e been making for the eities, and it is a grave danger to our public life, becauce V\'e cannot su:C'ceed with our innnense terri­tory unl<"'<S we gn·e of our .-cry best in the development of this great anJ magnificent State.

I want to deal now with the question of State stations. I said a while ago that the TrE'asurer sometimes made statements that.

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

1616 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

aru not correct. J do not say they are wil­fully m<tdc. The Treasurer stated last year that the profit on the State Rtations was £102,869, exclusiYc of the value of leases surrendc,·ed to the Crown, which were valued at £127,000. Now, what does the Auditor-GE'ner'll sav? The Auditor-General showed that the a~tual profit was £15 477; a pretty big difference. That is something for the Treasurm· to explain. It will be aclmitted therefore thnt the fignres as eup­phcd by the 'I'r<>asurer in that particular rEgard "annat be accepted, and it makes one Hry doubtful about other statements which are mppli•_•cl to us ·in the absence of the Avditor-General'e report. Then, might I deal just for a moment with the butchers' shops. I know that the Premier is always vEry anxio11s to ha Ye thP butcher~' shops trotted out. \Yhat is the position with rE·gard to the butchers' shops? The profit on the 30th J uno, 191'7, was £35,045, but no reference is made to the fact that somehow C•r other a sum of £19,629 was taken from tbe Commonwealth for: storage purposes. That was a verv convement windfall for the Premier. •

The PRK\f!ER: \Ve made a profit without that.

Ho)!. W. H. BARNES: According to the Statement thev did, but thev made a profit, after cleductrng the £19:629, of a.bout £15,050. I say, again, that ir, was a very convenient windfall for the Premier and I can quite i111xgine how the Commom~cnlth Government must have regretted having to ray that nmount over for the purpose for wLich t,hcy had to pay it.

Let us look at tlvc railway refre,shment­rooms. I think they made a profit d £11,133.

The YRE'VIIER: Do you suggest that we have a look at thP refreohment-ruom? (Laughter.)

Ho;;. \V. H. DARXES: It might be dan­g-Erous for the l'rcmier. However, I woul-d l'e in very good company if I were with the Prc'mier. I know he is an cxceLent host. Apparently the rdrc,shment-rooms had been mrvrle 1;o pay Yer:v large!,,- by extreme profits. I make tlw charge again•t the GGvcrnment to-night that in connection with the refreshment-rooms. instead of giving th' public a fair cieal. thcv are in some direc­tions charging more than was charged when the ref;·eshment-rooms were run by )1i'h a tc cnterpnee. I h>1cl ace ~swn to draw the at­tention ')£ •.he Treasurer the other clay to the fact th'l.t boxes of matches costing about 2~<1. were being sold at 6d. The Govern­mEnt aJ'<' getting pretty hard up when the Minister for Railwavs has to sell his matches at over 100 per cenf. profit. You can make an:ything pay if you have got a monopoly.

::<,Ir. BEilBIXGTON : They charge 300 per cent. on buns.

HoN. W. H. BARJ'\RS : The hon. member whv interjeds says thev chargP 300 per cent. on buns. \Ve will hear a little about that later on.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Ve put some butter on the buns though. (Laugh­tn.)

Mr. BEilBINGTON: One man said he got dripping.

HoN. W. H. EARNES: Leaving the rffreshment-rooms, I would like to deal

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

>'ith the parag-raph which makes referenetc (,, the State ~a wmills. I must confcs.o that I do not ]:now how the Treasurer feels. but I lh ink th;e Trc·asurm· should feel a '!ittlc­ushamed of that stat.ement. A man was. c·mployed as manager and the State sa;~­mills were not a success and the Treasurer apparently bccaus<' he had no other para­£T'J-ph to put into his Financial Statement, tells this House that that particular manager Lae been dispe~:scd with and that a new nu'~nager has br:cn appointed. A very nice tlting to put all the biame upon the manager who was in charg<>.

Mr. FRY: Killed him for ever.

HoK. W. H. DARNF.S : The hon. gentle­rr.an says to him: "You have not made the S«Cccss of it th<>t I desire. You can gn aiH~ I will gl't somebody else in your place." Apparentl1· thi~ new broom has swept clean during the short period he has been there, and a profit made amounting to £400. Hon. members know that what I am saying is absolutely true, and that that appears in the report. The man, no doubt, left the service with an excellent character.

·:Yfr. BEBiliXGTOl\: Thcv took away the n~tan's Jiying. "

HoN. \Y. H. BAR~ES: I want to draw attention la tho method which has been adopted in ranning some of these State cnterpri~~s. I wish to quote now from thc­Jl'inutes of c>virlcrcce taken before the Select Commifitoe appoinh•cl by the Upper House to inquire and report upon the industrial enterprises. On page 90, Mr Parnell put a question to the 'Cnc'er Secretary, Depart­ment of Pub1ic \York3. ns follo"s :-

·' 1526. You arc sending timber from the Stute •awmills in Bri~bane up to \Vestwood for th'c erection of the sctni­torium there?"

';'hE> all:"WCr ).VU£­

" Th~t '~ so. " 1527. Are you aware r!,at timbeJ'

could be bought in Rockhampton at 6s. per hundred feet. below your price 'l--It cou~d be bought chu1per, but I do not say Es. per hundred cheap0r.

" 1528. That is what the millers say. Do vou think that is fair to other parts of the State> •-That is a matter for the­Government, and not for 1110. I an1

earrvinn: ou·~ the instructions of the GoYernli1ent.''

Th0 'I'REASFRER : \\'hose inotructions do yon think he sh0uld carry out?

Ho!<:. W. H. BARNES: That is sidetrack­ing the question. I know the U ne! er Secretary, and I know he would carry out any instruc­tions he got; but I ask, is it a fair thing to sa·ddle the State with the extra amount paid in connection with the sanatorium at W eetwoocl through sending timber all the \vay from Brisbane and thereby unduly adding to the cost of the building? Is that busine's? If that is the condition of State enterprises, well then I say, pity State enterprises! Apparently that is the only way that the Government can run their con­cerns, and they hope to make a success of them. Now, there is another phase of it. There has been added to the public debt through State enterprises-I refer to the­purchase of stations and to the purchase of--

Mr. FOLEY: German dredges.

Supply. [21 AUGUST.} Supply. 1617

Hox. W. H. BARNES: I refer to the purchase of the State sawmill. There has been a<lded to the public debt a very big amount indeed. I find in connection with the State sawmill-I am quoting the Auditor· General's report for last year, page 12-that £23.000 of debentures matures in 1926. It seems to me that the policy of the Govern­ment in connection with these enterprises, bearing in mind the large amount of money that has been issued in other directions, _is to pile up for someone some day a big amount to be paid as a result of their purchases of the State enterprises. An<l let me draw attention to another fact-that "·hilst they are buying and paying by deben­tures the monev from the profits of what they ' buy-take 'cattle if you will-is not bein" earmarked to meet the debentures, but is b~ing put into the revenue to help them in their difficulties.

The TREAS1:RER : I thought you knew better than that.

Hox. \V. H. BARNES: 'l'hey may be paid into the trust funds, but I ea": show the position of the trust funds an<l pomt out to the Trcasur<>r the deplorable condition in "·hich they are to-day.

The TREASURER: ::'\o.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: Yes. I know he will sav "Look it is not as much as it was ~t' ~ne peri~d," but he knows that it doeo not appear to be as much by reason of an Act of Parliament, although in the aggre­gate it is verv much more. The trust funds arc worse to-day, bearing in '!'ind the amount that has been transferred 111 respect of workers' dwellings and other items, by about £1,300,000.

Then we <'Ome down to the profit received from the State produce busine~s-£170. TJ:e Treasurer know,; that that IS not a fatr balance. It does not represent the position of thP State produce business to-day. I think the 'J.'reasurer himself admitted that there were certain initial expenses which ha<l not been incil!ded in it, which were going to be distributed over a period so that they would not all "'how in a short tim.e. And as a matter of fact. instead of there being a profit of £170 the Treasurer must know there is no such thing, there wa' not at the time when the figures he gave to the House wer_e prepared, that as a matter of fact there IS really a deficiency.

I notice, too, that the Treasurer has a tilt at the baneful influence-he does use the word "baneful "-of the middleman. There is a direct r<>fcrence to middlemen. I am sure that the Tr<>asurer will forgive me when I sav that the biggest middleman in this commt{nity is probably the Premier him­self. (Laughter.) Yes, I say that probably th'ilt biggL ,t mi~diei:'an in the community _tc;-day is the Premier himself. Look at the positiOn­and I know it appliH possibly to other indi­viduals-the Premie1· is in the position of controlling practically the biggest things so far as State Bnterprises are concerned and so forth and then when it comes to a

, question 'of law we know where the Premier is. and I venture to think that when men who engao-e in honE'st business are tilted at as thcc Tteasurer tilted at them, he should look to himself, he should look at home a bit. he should realise that some of these men at whom he tilts-and indeed, I think I may say that I know something about

1918-5 G

them-most of those men arc just as honour­able as other busines> men in the com­munity, or any other class of business men in the . community. And I hope that the State Produce Agency will do just as well for persons who send to them as other re­putable firms have ·done in the community.

The PREMIER: How do you make out that I am a mid<lleman?

HoN. W. H. BARNES: Of c<mrse, I am not saying it in any fashion that is objec­tionable-! ask him whether he is not a middleman when he appears in court defend­ing somebody? (Laughter.) Of cou_rse he is a l'tiddleman when he appears m court defending somebody.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: And makes good profits, too.

Ho><. W. H. BAR)JES: I want to draw atteEtion to another point. I was talking ,.],out debenture,, and I refrned to thA fuc~ that in connection with the sawmill a cettain ameunt had SBen issued. I find that, ::ccord­ing to the. Au<li~or-General's report fw 1917, in connectwn with State statiOns, debf'ntnr<>c, amounting to £475.900 h"'-'" been issuP<l, and if the Government are allowed to go on with some of their wild schemes with which t!1ey are seekino· to procee<l, we an• going to Lave aclditwnct!"burde:ls piled on the community. Let me deal for a moment "ith lVLmnt Hutton. Mount Hutton was valued at £73.500, including lease £4,662. On tlw 31st March, 1917, according to the Auditor­General's report, the lease was debih'd with £9,337, and stock credited with £9,140, au<l revenue to adjust with £196. The Auditor­Goner a! was opposed to the principle, <ind if any hon. m em be·: <le•ires he can look up ; ':tge 23 of the rq>Ort The value of the lease \\'US

rlwt. increased £14,000, whilst in July. 1913, it :nad been valu&d at £1,100. That is to be seen on page 24 of the Auditor-General's report. Talk about cooking! Talk about cook­ino- a balance and trying to make rp some deflciencv! We have it here mo~t delib!'c­ately in cmmection with that particular station.

'lhen there is another thing to which I '"~nt t~ <lraw the attention of the Committee -the Babinda State Hotel. Ihe takings from the 29th ::l.fav, 1917, to the 31st AUQ;ast, 1917, were-Bar: £3,962; dining-room. £1,217. Apparently, the ~overn~n<''}t are absolutely out not to provide facilities for travellers, as they ;.;.lid they WE'te. but to proY'de means for drinking for the hard­working sugar rncn, so tpat they n1ay ha':'"e the oppol'tunity of spendmg thmr money m drink.

A while ago I referrC'd to the fact th~.ct t_he position in the country horn the ,tandpomt of rev.Jnue and expenditure was alarming What is the position? ThE' reycnue last year per head of the population was £11 2s. 2d .. plus the Commonwealth amount of £1 4s. 6d. The expenditure was £12 Ilk 7d. Why-

again I repeat-that is the act [8 p.m.] of a prodigal Government, spend-

ing money indiscriminately and apparently, Micawber-like, hoping !or some­thing to turn up later on to brmg them out of their difficultie.s

::\ow. I want to deal with another very important matter. and I venture to <>ay that the public generally do not _know how impor­tant it is. I am referrmg to . the trust accounts. \\That is the position with regar·d b them? On page 14 of the Treasurer's

Hon. W. H. Barnnj

1:618 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

tables there is shown a .debit balance of £1,657,037. I find that an amount of .£1,500.000 was evidently paid back to the Sayings Bank Commissioner. It may have been paid back at a critical period for the bank. I also find that since then .£1,000,000 has been received from th& Savings Bank Commissioner.

The TREASURI:R : And we ~ay 4 per cent. for it.

HoN. W. H. BARNES : Some time ago an Act of Parliament was passed transferring to the S-avings Bank on ncccunt of tJw Agricul­tural Bank a ,um of £1,337,150, ahd on .uocount of the \VD~ }n~rs' dwel~ings n sum. of £1,337,677. Those wcr,J book. Ciltries, of course, and tJ.,e amounts mentioned in this ·comparison are those given in the Auditor­General's report for 1917. I further find that with the £1,000,000 which the Govern­ment have received from the Savings Bank, and the £657,037 which they show as a debit, there is a debit amount of .£4,331,864. Those figureq are quoted from the information mp­plied to !he Ho•Jse. Tho dilferewo between the 30th J nne, 1915, and the more re .·mt d-ate is £1,317,119•.

The TREASURER: Alleoluteb wrong. Wh-at is t~c absolute debit to the tJ:Hst funds at the present time?

HoN. W. H. BARNES: The actual debit, as it appears in your Statement. is £657,037; but. as I have explained, if it had not bren for certain operations on the accounts, there would have bc<>n a dPbit balance of £4,331,864. Has the 'l'rcasu·rer paid the amounts in connection with the workers' dwellings ,and the Agric,lltural Bank? The TrC'asur0r knows he ha" not, and he knows that the position I haVP put before the Committee. is the exact TJosition.

The TREASURER: Ko; you are putting an absolutely fal~e position before the Com­mittee.

HoN. W. H, BAU::\!ES: I find there are some matter' that I shall have to pass over, because my time is nem·ly exhausted.

An Hoxoc:RABLE :MEMBER: You have an hour and a-half.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: No, the Chairman tells me I have an hour. In conclusion, I want to say that the big things concerning the State are ldt. out of this Financial Statement, and have been sacrificed to the f·,tablishment Q'f Govcirnment enterprises. The question of developing the State by pu.,hing on railwc,y enterprise, and realising the pos·,ibilities which the country ofit>rs has been ab•olntelv overlooked. The State has bPen sacriflced to other influences and to other pnrpo'e~.

The PRE:VIJER: 'What a re they?

Hox. W. H. BL\RNES : The Premier knows tho''' influences and those purposes. The:<·. include State enterprises. Instead of r< >li,,ing that the Government have a magni­f1cent opportunit,·, particularly in this war time, of developing the resources of the State. they have kept on in a narrow circle, and their action in that reepect is ll'oing to he one of the most daw.aging things in comwct;on with the State. I want to raise a note of warning to-night, and I do not r jse it for political purposElS.

GoVERNMENT ME>TBERS : Oh, no ! Oh, no ! HoN. W. H. BARNES : Is it not a fact

that the Treasurer has been reminded that, as fa.r as the Commonwealth is concerned,

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

no monevs can be found for Queensland after 1918? "

The TtW\Sl'RER: ::-.;o: we have an arrango­nwnt with the Common w< alth to get loan money in 1919, and that is after 1918.

Th<• CHAIR~LAX: The hon. member for l3nlimba has exhausted the timo allowed him by the Standing Orders. I would point out that our Standing Orders do not provide for an exten .. ion of time in Committee, although extensions have been previously granted. As it appears to be the desire of the Committee to grant an extension to the hem. ll1C'1Y!.ber, I will a"certain the pleasure of the Com­mittee-. I' it the pleasure of the Committee that the hon. member be gr,wted an eden­sion cf time ?

HOKOFRABLE 1\lElliBERS: Hear. hear ! Hox. W. H. BAH"'ES: I thank hon.

gcntlemrm for granting m< an extension of tinw. I haYe stated what are the actual conditiom in the State of Que<msland to-day. _'\.m I right in thinking that Anstralia is g-oing L) carry :1. v0ry nruch heavier load in the wa7 of taxation from month to month? ,\m I !·ight in thinking that as a result of t 1 c war in whi<·h we. as part of the Common­.,, (·alth, are Pnga?'cd. we must stand by the Commonwealth in the dc:nands it has to make. anrl v:·ill haYe to make more and nlOl'C', ')11 the con1n1unitv in the \V a v of taxa~ tion for fund to carry on ! he \V~n·?

}.lr. FREE: Xo. :~ ou are net.

Hox. \\~. E. BART\ES: I am. snrprised to hear any hon. member sav that moneys can be borrowed without having to repay them. The revenue has to comP from some sonrce, and I am pNfectly right in sa~:ing that the Commonwealth GovE'rnment havo already indicated, if the Press reports are correct. that a spPcial session is to bP called to deal more particularly with finance. It has been reported-it ma:v not bP correct-that the Premier of the Commonwealth has said that unlPss the monev comes from a certain direc­tion it will have to be obtained. perhaps by force, from the people. Fortunately, the people of Australia have responded to the call in that regard. and I believe they will continue to respond nobly to any responsi­bility that may be placed upon them. The Treasurer says we are going to g.et money from the Commonwealth in 1919. I think I shall be able to show from the Treasurer's own statement, if he is correctly reported. that his view is that thE'r(' n~ust be care exercised in connection \vith the finances on n.cconnt of war problems. There is a tre­mendons load of debt on the people of ,\ ustralia. llnd, probablv. befor<e the war is over. the interc,J bill will be almost as great as the interest bill was in Groat Britain l:.>fore she entered the war; and we should h•· false to the position we ocnpy if we did il'\ot prepare for vyhat is appm·ent and patent to evervone. Here, to-ni"ht. from m,· place in the Home, I sa:· the Tr ·a surer was frank f'!lOUf;h to admit that care should b0 exer­eisf'cl in dealing with th0 finances. Accord­ing to a new::paper report, sJWaking on the 25th Ocbber, 1917, the hon. gentleman said-

" The falling off in loan money n0xt y0ar will, no doubt, necessitate the curtailment of expenditure on public works, and it is thought it mav not be long before this is brouf;ht abo;It."

The 'rREASURER: And the nee< ssarv curtail-ment took placE'. •

HoN. '\V. H. BARXES: There may have been some curtailment in connection with

Supply. [21 AUGUST.] Supply. 1619

loan expenditure, but there was the reverse to that so far as the trust funds were con­cerned. In a Press interview, the Treasurer made the following statement:-

" Mr. Theodore stated that, as far as the results of the conference were con­cerned, he personally believed it would bear good fruit. The loan arrangernents wc•re such as would enable the States, which were parties to the agreement, to carr.: on, though on a restricted pro­grctmml'. Much good wouU result from the di>•cussion of financial matters, and the interchange of ideas bv the Treasurers ;<aYe them a proper COmprehension of nch other's diffJcultit·s. The accepted Yie"~/ of the Treasurer's was in the direc­tiun of recognising that ordinarY expendi­ture on department> >Yould haYe to be cut down to the lowc't minimum in 01 d<>r that tlw Comn:onwealth might ha Ye good scope to finance w.ar actiYi ties."

I Yenture to say that the Treasurer was right thPre; and \V hen anv hon. Inmnber infers that \YC are' not going '"to be up again-st sorne­thing which e1·erj pmd<•nt man should be faC'ing at thi~ par:icular junt:tLHe, thcu I b:ly he is mak1ng a huge ndstake. The Treasurer must know that, no mattnr what Government is in office, if they cannot get n1o11ey, there must be a restriction in enterprise, and that alwa; s brings in 1ts wake wme difficulties and some trouble. It is, the,·eforP, tho duty of the Gm·ernment at t[Iis reriod in e1·ery "\Vav to husband their re-sources and cncvur­vgo enterprise. What is the position of the GoYerntnent to-d{ly? A.rn tlH'Y enc.vurag ing· .enterprise? I ask solemnly here to-night if this GovcrnmQnt are encouraging enterprjbe? ..:\re they not doing e..-erything to stifle and to block enterprise? \Vhat is the· position with regard to some of the Hills w hi eh loa Ye already been intr,)dU'"ed? Sorr,c of those Bills !1ropose practical!,- to wipe om what has been done in the past and to repudiate contracts. The Premier and the Treasurer may say that they are not acts of r0pudiation. I s"y many oi the Bills they are bringing in this se~'3ion are acts of repu­diation. It is repmted that the Premier is nbout to visit Englm1d. I YGI1ture to say that he will find, \Yhen he reaches England, that tlw position of the Treasurer will be a:~so­lutely different to what it has iwen hitherto by rf>ason of the fact that-whether the hon. gentleman calls these things acts of repudia­tion or not-he will find that thP people of England regard some of their Bills as indi­<'.ations that the GoYornment are pr,parerl to treat solemn obligations Umt have heen entered into in the past a8 mere scraps of paper. (Government laughter.) vVh<'n the hon. gentleman gets to England, h'~ will find great difficulties in rai~ing money thoro. In conclusion, I want to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that the Treasurer proposes to obtain this year a revenue. of £9.118.653, or £627,000 more th.an he received from all sources last year.

Mr. FOLEY: Don't you wish you were 'I rea surer now?

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I do not wi~h t.hat I was Treasurer if it would involve doinO" some Lhir.gs which I think are morally wroni;; ~nd I do no.t think ar;y hon. t;";m·b~r on this stde would hke to be m a posthon 111 which he would have to do something which is unjust to the community generally and which \\•ill mar the fair f.ame of Queensland. It is highly important that every hon.

member of this Chamber and every member of the community should seek so to adjust the affairs of the State, a,nd their own pri,-ate affairs, that ther may be a.ble more mat('riallv to help the Empue at tins Cl'ltwal juncture.· After. all, we should contribute something towards the maintemwce of the Empire, and it is the duty of eYory loyal eitizen to do su wi1en he i,; called upon. I feel sure that, if hon. merr1bers wili reP.ect, !hev will see that 1t is their duty to face the 110s~tion and try to assist the Emr•ire in these critical tinws.

::>Ir. LARCO:YlBE (11' ppfl) : The Govern­ment should f<1el pleased at the speech deli,·ered by the hon. member f01: Bulimba. Th0 hon. member'·, bpeBCh was weak. Its \'>cakness was not due to any nat.ural defi­ciency on the part of the hon. member, Lut, Le,·auce his material was weak; he had a bad brief, and, eonsequcntly, he was unable to make out a good case. Th0 hem. member shted in his concluding rem:1rks that when the Premier went to England~--

llon. \V. H. BARXES: Which he is going to do.

Mr. L. \.RC011BE : The hon. m•ember knows more' about it than I de. He lr,ay ha,-e inside information which I have not got. The ,hon. member said that the Premier would experience difficulty in Englnnd in arranging the affair,::, of the State because of 'ome nlleged repurliatory legislation passed bv this GoYernment. That is a charge of a ,~Cry fli1nsv. nature. becau"e the hon. 1nernber ,,.,,; a mmnber of a Government in 1910 that introduced some of this self.qme repudiatoJ.'Y legi~lation. He was a member of th~; Go­vernment that int,.ocluced the Land Act Amendment Bill of 1910, which contained the so-called repudiation clause that l'1un. members opposite. now so strongly- object to; and it was only Oecausc cf th J :strenuous opposition of the wealthy intere"ts in the LegislatiYc Council th.at t~1e clause was chopped. The hon. member's chief and other hon. members of his party ;;trongly asserted on the floor of this Chamber that this so­called repudiation was not s<> in essence, but was only protecting- the true interPsts of the Stat0. I recollect the lah' Premier, who was the' hon. nwmber for Oxlev. quoting Sir Samuel Griffith in support of his contention that the daus0 in the Land Bill which was termed an act of repudiation wa~ not of that chRraC'ter. but ''as Dnlv a reasonable exerC'ise of the power8 of goyer~ment and a protection of the interests of the people of this State. It is rather amusing, therefore, to realise the jnsineeritv of hon. members who now ~harge this Government ,,-ith repudiation and with damag·ing the credit of the i3tat<\ when they W<:'re responsible for the very Fame thing just a few years ago.

GoYERX:\!ENT ME~TBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. LARCOMBE: In criticisins- the admin­istration of the Government, hon. members should haYe some regard for fairne9S, com­mon sense, and logical argument; but, apparently, hon. members oppos1te a1·e not Nmrerned about th<:lse considerations at all. The hon. member for Bulimba said that the Treasurer did not deal with big things in the Financial Statement. The Treasurer might very well reciprocate that sentiment, berause the hon. member for Bu!imba cer· tainly did not deal in •a big way with the Treasurer's Statement. A lot of the argument used by the hon. member can be effecth·ely

Mr. Larcombe.]

1620 Supply• [ASSEMBLY.] Supply,

refuted by reference to facts and to the past history of this State. Before proceeding to deal with figures, I would !ike to refer to another point raised by the hon. member for Bulimba. He charged the Govcmment with failing to stimulate e.gricultural.prouuction. I would like to ask what the hon. gentleman and his colleagues did when they W8l'C in power to stimulat<' agriculture in this St:,te? The "Graziers' Gazette"-an anti-Labour organ-a few years ago termc·d the Govern­ment of which the hon. member was a mem­ber the worst Government in the world in relation to agriculture. (He~tr, h<•ar !)

Hon. W. H. BARNES: What do they say now?

Mr. LARCOMBE : To-day, I am satisfied that exp~rience has confirmed their suspicions and beliefs and that, although they are anti-Labour in a general seme. they have rc>alised that this Government have stimu­lated agricultural production and land eettlement, and the great wealth-producing industries of Queensland, in a way that hae never been done previous!~·· (Heal', hear !) T think I cnn bJ·in'l facts and fig·ures to prove mv conte-ntion later on. Furthc>r. the hon. rnf.mber for Bulimbn dealt with the matter of the tru,,t fund<. I would like to refresh his memorv in relation to that matter. 'I'he hon. mnmhor f'tatod that trust fnnds had i!GJW to the bad in the last three years to the ext,•nt of £1.300.000. Tru0. Does the hon. member know to what Pxtent thPv went hehiHd in the period during which 'he was rrreasurer? -

.\ GovERX:IIENT l\TF!I!BER : \Vorse. Hon. \V. H. BARxES: You cannot doubt

my figures; they arc absolutely correct.

c1Ir. LARCO:\IBE : I am not. doubting those figures.

The TREAScRER : Those figures are not eorrect.

~fr. LARCOMBE: There has been a readjustment of trust funds recently, which has somewhat altered the position, but I am taking the argument of the hon. member for Bulimba as he used it; and I say that if he has proved anything he has proved that this Administration has not been as reckless and 0xtraYagant-if I may put it that way­os the Administration of which he was a member. Now, I would like to point out that for the last three vears, during which the, hon. member for Bulimba was 'I'reasurer, !he tmst funds wont to the bad to the extent of £1,437.COO.

::\1r. KmwAx: That is what you call " high finance."

Mr. LARCOMBE: Yet the hon. member for Bulimba. in an attempt to prove extraYa­gance and rGrklcss nwnagPmcnt, urges as an argument that we had gone to the bad t<J the extent of £1.~70.000 in trust funds. As a matt0r of fact, he himself, when Trea­surel', Ywnt to the bad- as I have said­h the ex! 'nt of £1.437,000. What does that nrove? It proves the insincerity and the hypocrisy of. and the weakness of the arg-u­ments urged bv, the hon. member for Bulimha. FurthN, let me quote from his 0wn Financial Statement. In 1911 I notice thqt the hon. member for Bulimba, in his Statc·rncnt, 'tatpd, " It will b0 noted by hon. n1emhers thrrt the incrcasf'l in expenditure from the trust fnnch is verv considerable." Then, "!l'ain. in 1912, "Hon. members will not;ce tha.t the expendit.nre from trust fnnds c<•ntinues to increase." Certainly, the expen-

[Mr. Larcombc.

diture continued to increase, and increased in a larger ratio under the hon. member than under the present Administration. What has. the hon. member to say in rep!:;· to those figures? He is dumb. One has only to quote his own figures to refute his arguments here­this evening.

GovERN:lfENT 1Y1EMBERS : Hear, hear !

;yfr. LARCOMBE : I intend to deal with the questions raised by !.he hon. member as I proceed ; but, in order to preYent unnec:cs­sary repetition, I would like to proceed along t h·· lines of some notes I ha vc prepared on the ba'i5 of previous criticisms of the hon. member and also on the lines of the criticism contained in the leading artielee o.f the "Courier" and "Telegraph." First of all, there are four charges, broadly speak­ing, which haYe been levelled against the· Government-incmnpeteriC'y, gross extra va­gance, increased taxation, a.nd discrediting the credit of the State.

Mr. HoDGE: Every one of them true.

i.\fr. LA RCO:!\fBE : Let us test thooe st"te­n1onts by reference to facts. It is a very simple matter to make an assertion of that nature, but it is a much more difficult matter to prov<J it. It certainly rcnuired no states­manlik" quality to make the charges-any b•:hool boy could make them-but, when it comes to proving them, I say it is a horse of a different colour. I would likf' to say, further, tJ.,at I believe those chargPs are the hall n1ark of corrQctno~s and soundnc~s as far as the Government are concerned. \Vhen hon. mpmbers opposite cease to <eriticiso. hon. members on the Government benches may well turn the lens of introspection npon thcm_solvos and ask_ in what respect they are ddic1ent or arc go1ng astray.

First of all, I will deal with the allr,ged charge of damaging the credit of the State. That is the charge that has bc>en constantly assorted by the "Courier" n.nd th.. hon. member for Bulimba. I find in the "CouriPr" of 19th July last, some remarks concerning banking in Queensland. Stndents of finanee· know that the financial condition of a countrv can be judged bv its bank balances. On the 19th July the "Courier" made the following observations:-

"An achievement ·.vhich reflects credit on the buoyancy of Queensland .... i;, brought home in the bab.r,,.,,_~heet of the Queensland :\' atiom I Bank.''

What a remarkable ad•nission! \Vhat a remarkable tribvie to this Govcrrmtcnt' flow could the cre·lit of the State be buoy ~nt if the Government of the State had been .d" m­agin.~ it in their legislation and admini~tra­tion?

:Mr. G. P. BAR!\ES: Talk about "the b;wy­ancy of the State a{'counts.

Mr. LARCOMBE: Yes, in <ltie com·•o I will do m, but I am not goi·1g- to i;reak off this particular questimJ ta go into th, nwttcr of State accounts. I -will deal with those points a~ I pro"r,•d. I 'vant to point ont that a[(~in on 16th Aug-ust the "Courier," atnongst other things, said, "'fht- businc~s of the bank is vPry sounrl, and the nosition, generally, undoubte-lly a strong one." ::\'ow, -\,-e know that finance, industry, <md g-0\·rrn .. m.nnt ure interdepended, an·1 thP reflf'ction o' Governmental activity is found in hwk balances and t ·:ad.o arc! ;,1dmtry genernlly. If this Governmf'·Tlt had done "anything injurious or harmful, as has bPen suggc -ted

Supply. [21 AUGUST.] Supply. 1621

by the hon. member for Bulimba, and by the "Courier" and "Telegraph,'' it would have been reflected in bank b'tlances. Instead of that, the "Courier" states, when off its guard and not making a political i1.rgument agaimt the Govenm1ent, that our work re,tlly xeflcds th·2 utnwst credit in the ouovancy of

_ banking balances. ~

:Yir. HODGE: Do the ~easons get no C!'edit?

1\L-. LARCO:MBE: That '' a cnange of positwn. First of all, t;1e meruber for Bulimba :md the "Courier., say that the credit of the State is bad, and is due to ad­ministration anrl legislation. Kow, the ban. n1BIY1ber who interjBcts suggests, I suppose, that it i, g0od, but is due to good seasons. That is an entirely different position.

Mr. HoDGE: You mmt give the sca.;ons some share of the credit.

Mr. LARCO::Y1BE : The hon. member, .apparently, does not agren with the :!:.on member for Bulimba, who states that the position is bad. The hon. member states that it is good, but is uue to good seasons. I <1gree with the hon. m<!lYlc)er part of the way. It is due partly to the pooition ot Queens­land, ·because Queensland is the industrial .and political paradise of Australia.

GoYERcDIEXT MEli!BERS: Hear, hear !

1\Ir. LARCOMBE: And it is due partl:y to good scZ!sons and partly to good gCJvorurnent ; they both share in tiw crodit. Now again, in re,lation to the Queensland Trustees. Limited, I tncl in the '· Co:1ricr" of 2:;th July the following:-

,,The chairn1an (::Yir. W. H. Hood), in nloYinr: the adoption cf the l'(~port, >aid-

" ' Operations in relation to Lhe reali­sation of ~states generally had been more than ordmarilv successfd. As to the -con1pany's Luslncs:::;, a satisfact-ory year's operation was disclosed. There had Leen an expansion all round. The following table showed how the company had fared <:luring the last. three years : _:

June 30th, 1916 J uno 30th, 1917 June 30th. 1918

Net profit. £

4,600 5,483 6,044

a continuous alJd prog:n~ssive itnprove­ment in the ))ositi::m.' "

What 1 would like to draw particular RHen­tion to is this-

" Operations in relation to rc:tlisation of < shtes has been more than o!·dmaril~· su('cessful."

Now. operations cm1ld not have been more ihan ordinarily suc<c>ssful, and there could not have been those increased profits if the pernicious, harmful, and injurious legislation had been pcssed which hon. wcmbers oppo­site allege we have r,assed. That is an admitted fact, and tho,e hank balance's show bevond all shadow of doubt that the admin­istration of the. Goycrnment has not destroved credit. has not been of a credit,destroving n<J.tur<' at all: but, on the enntran, all' !he financial retm'ns and record< show· that the position of Qne<>nsland has never been better than it is at th0 present time. (Hear, hc•tr !)

Mr. G. P. BARXES: All due to purchilses made by the British Governrr•ent.

Mr. change.

LARCOMBE: That is another The change of argun;ent is very

amusing, because it is absolutely contradic­tory. The hon. members are not agreed amonO'st themsdves as to whether the credit is good or bad; or whether, if it is good, that fact is clue to the Government, to good seasons, or to the Imperial :LUthoritieJ.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: The Government have not encouraged one enterprise.

Yir. LARCOMBE: The facts and figures I have giv.:m spea/, more eloquently than the hon. membnr's representations on that par· tieular point. \Ne have heen called confisoa­tionists) rep.,_1diationids, an.d ~very offensi've

word in the offensive vocabulary [8.30 p.m.J of the 'I'ory Pre_os, but to,day

we take those references as com­plirnents. At one time I used to be rather disturbed bv them; but I now regard them as complirr;ents to the Administration of "hi eh I ha ,.e the honour to be a supporte>r.

I think I have shown by these references to b>tnk bcdanc•-' that the Goyernment have Pot da."nag-ed the .credit of the State. If hon. m"mbers will look at the Financial State­rm·nt thev will sec that the a&,ets at the l111nk' have increased during the last twelve months under the adminiBtration of the Treasurer and his colleagueo .

I now come to the charge of incompetency. The "Courier," in con1n1enting on the re­turns just after the end of the financial year, made reference to the 1917-18 results in a h aclinrr ctrtide. Dealing with the difference b<'twetn the actual and the es~imated returns !hey commente-d thus-

" The'3e veriations, it n1ay be said, are not abnonn[d, t1,ough they a1:e some e.-idcnce of loosenesc. In expend1ture the differences between estimated and actual outlav, howtver, show the absence of anv 'effectivG attempt to keep within bo;:mds.''

One would infer lrom that comment that the e'·rimates and caJculations of the Treasurer were loo~c and wide of the me.rk. But the fccts pro1·e just the rcc.-erse. If we look at the tables of estimatfd and actual returns for. years past, pa.rticu!arly for those years in which thf' hol<. member for Bu;imba acted ao Treasuver, wo find that t-he position is much mo,·e unsatisfactory than it is at tho p·cc~nt time. I have here a table along the lines ()f the " Cmu·ier" criticism, and it fnrnishes i!lterc,ting reading. I \-t·ill giye the figurm S.rst arid draw JllY deductiom, lat('r, -so as t•J proYent unncccs,._ar;.- con­fusion. In 1912-13, on an cshma.te of £12,530.000, the 'l're8.'·urer \\'as in error to tl:e extent of £219.300; in 1913-14, on an e<timate of £13,f30.1JOO he was in error to tho extent of £346, 70·); in 1914-15, on an c timate of £13,900.000 he was in error to the 0xtent o: £596,700. On a total estimate of £40,020,000 the hon. member for Bulimba ''as out to the extent of £1162,700. Let us take the three 'ears during which the present Treasurer, has had control of the financial affairs of the State.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: TeH us what the c1cdit balance~ \':ere at the same time.

Mr. LARCO:\IBE: Yes, I will deal with <he credit balances iater, because the hon. member was not on any better ground with tc·gard to credic balances. He studiously refrained from referring to the credit balances in the Financial Statement of the

Mr. Larcombe.]

1622 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Snpply.

current vea1·. All he did was to make some <•xplanation with regard to the position of 1he credit balances in 1915 when he retired.

The TRE>\SURER : A month before and a rrwnth after.

Mr. LARCOMBE : Even if he took the month of May or June the posi1ion was not as fayonrable as that disclosed in the finan­cial year jmt ended. If you go back to 1910-11, "e find that the cash balances were down to £1,870,000. What has the ox-Treasurer got to &ay in reply to that? \'(hen we have' a credit balance approximat­ng £3,000,000 h<e come with a complaint that tlwre is son·ething rotten--if I may use thv Sl,"d\::0~peariun exp"Ch,sion--in the state ·nf D nmnrk in relation to the general fipances. The hon. gentlemau has tried to prt:YC'nt n1c fro:rn gi \'ing the cmnparison v l1ieh I intend tn '"ake in connection with his Nrors and c'llculcrions a· compared with the pre,ent 'Trca urer

Hon. IV. H. B.mXES: How mm·\ camc. h m land h::x and il._,__Qn1e ta\ ·:

Mr. LARCO;}IBE: I am snrprised et the hon. gentleman, who io:::.J nn ex-Treasurer. not realising t,hat those points mud be dealt with in proper &cqucnce. I haye ma·de uotns concerning thPnl. but I do l1ot •rant to b1 an eh ~1If fron1 the error~ I a1n di~<:~u ,si lg­those errors iu calcul:: tion an(~ in::.•on11 ,,.,':~._,n.c.Y al:l alleged by the ·' Courier'' and_ otht'r pnper~. In 1915-16 on an estimat.' of £15,370,000 ti::te 'l'r'. iFUl'er wa:· out £30,300. In 1916-17, on an ctimate of £15,910.000, he was out to the o:t~nt of £104,000 onh ; m 1917-18, on an Pstimate of :S17,000,0o'O, hce was out £390,400 ; on a total estimate of £48,280,000 he v·ao out to the extent of £524,700 onlv. 'i'his table shows that in tlw firot two years the T r, . surer "·a.s out to the extent of £134,300 onlv on an estimate of £31,.~80,000. The deputy leader of tlw Op­r<·"twn ''- "" ont to the e=:teut of £219,300 in 1912-13, on an estin:at~ of onlv !;12,530,000. On an t"timatc of £18,000.000 iP',.:.:, thP hon n1011bC'r for BnJi1nba 1'-a:-:; out £85,000 more in hi·. cnlculai ions. Yet the "Courier" talks aLout th~~ Jooscncf~ and incoinp<,tenc_y nf the p-:_· ,ent T'rca;:;urcr. One has onl:,~ ro glance , t hjs figure.;; to rc·alise the fiin1<:" .'~ and unsa.ti~ ;·actor·, nature of the criticism Uir~:·cted again."'t th; Tl'easur.·.:r and ii1' col10n Q'ut ~- Pn)r·•cdine· a little further, last year the presf nt 'Treasurer was out £390,-1'J0; 'he la·.·' year the deputy leader of the Ot.positirm \Y.ls Tr<asnrn he wa, out £346,700 on an estimate of £13.900 OOJ. Let me emphasic.,• the results of the th~ee year,;' C'omparison, because the figure.:, are so over­whelming and convincing that I intend to have them placed on record so that the electors of Keppcl whom I represent may not be gulled by the references made in the Rockhampton Tory papers from the Brisbane " Courier " of the speeches of the hon. mem­ber for Bulimba and his ~olleagUL'S. The present Treosurer was out to the extent of £524.700 on an estimate of £48.280,000. The hon. member for Bulimba was out to the t·xrr'nt of £1,162,000 on an estimate of £40.020,000 onl)'. The hon. member for Bu!imbn "'''" £670,000 more out in his calcu­lation than the present Trea~urer on an estimotfl of £s,orn,ooo less.

Mr. :\Io'lRE: He stili had a surplus.

l\Ir., LAR.C0::\1B,f';: He ~till hr:d a surplus, hut there ,,, re·1l1y no nrtue m a surplus

[Mr. Larcombe.

and no vie' in a -:l~ficit if you tah' th"" £nets and circun1~tances into consideration.

Hon. \V. H. BAR~ES: If you go on creat­ing deficits what is g-oing to be the end of 1h0 indiyi.cJual or of the State?

.Mr. LARCOMBE: I am not ono of those whc· assert lclcat w' -bould go on piling up ·c'eficits. The hon. member for Bulimba Lrows that if the Council had passocl om· frnunrial prOl)o:,;;a].-: tlH::>re \.rould haxe lH.:en no ~dcfif'it In.;t y0nr or the previous year.

Mr. G. P. B>~RNES : What about taxation? Mr. LARCOMBE : I will deal with taxa­

tier: later on. If an <;rror of £524,700 in the calculation of £48,000,000 is an evidence of loc.;:.eness jn financial adn1inistration, what must be thought of the hon. member for Bulimba who made an error of £1,602,000 on an estimate of £40,000,000 only? It simply prove' that there is no substance and no thought behind th<; criticisms that have been levelled at the prHent Government. The attacks made upon us only give us a chance to prove not only that those arguments are unsound, but it is an additional evidence as t0 the correctm'·'s and soundness of our ndrniiJistra t~on.

I will deal now with the vexed quc'.tion of doflr.:ts, which the hon. member for J~u!indm tncntioned.

J\.fr. )loomc: Deal ,,-ith tlw increased taxation.

: ir. L.\RCOMBE: I will deal with that also. Let me sa" here that the Government of which the hoi!. member for Bulimba was a member had deficits in the past. We know that in 1900-01 the Government ended the year with a deficit of over £500,000. That was a much larger deficit to have in one year than the deficit the Treasurer had last year, which amqunte-d to £409,000.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: I am in the happy position to sa;· that no Governm'"nt of which I was a member over had a deficit.

J\Ir. LARCOMBE: The party of which the hon. gentleman was a member had the deficit to which I referred.

.i\fr. G. P. BAR~ES : That was the transi­tion period. (Government laughter.)

:\fr. LAR.COl\IBE : It was a very unsatis­factory periOd. The remarks of hon. mem­bers remind me of a few lines from Pope:­" Some figures monstrous and misshaped

appear, Considered singly or beheld too near. Which, but proportioned to their light

and place, Due distance reconciles to form and grace."

To hon. members opposite the deficit figures appear monstrous and misshaped, when hon. r:nc .. nbcrs vic'\Tt' thern too close]·y and consider­them oingly or in an isolated or detached fc,rm, but when they are placed in their proper perspective at a due distance th{ly will a·wme form and gmce. I would like to make reference to the reasons for the d<"ficits. It i'· no use hon. members coming here and arguing that there haYe been deficits without analysing the reason for those deficits.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: Deficits will not prncluce revenue.

Mr. LARCOMBE : I am not contending that at all. I would remind hon. gentlemen opposite that in the first place the huge public debt, involving a large annual in­terest bill, was one of the ca.uses, The present GoYernmcnt were not responsible for the present large interest bill. This party have·

Sttpply. [21 Auaus~·.] Supply. 1623

been groaning under the responsibility and obligations of the legacy left by their pre­decessors, and the huge interest bill built up as a re8ult of the huge public debt that the hon. member for Bulimba and his colleagu<Js built up when they had control of the Trea­sury benches. Secondly, providential visita­tions was another factor. \Ve know that we had floods and cvclonic influences to contend with, and they n;adp a tax upon the Consoli· dated Revenue. That naturally increa.sed the deficit, becctusp it was a direct charge upon the Consolidated Revenue.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: What "as the amount?

Mr. LARO'OMBE: About £85,000. Does the hon. gentleman know that this Adminis­tration have also had to find abont £500,000 for increases to the public servants for which the7 were: not rc·,ponsible. The public ser­vants were entitl~d to tho:.e increases, and we know that hon. members opposite withheld from them large accumulated increases which this Government had to pay.

Mr. G. P. BARNES : How many deadbeats were there 1

Mr. LARCOMBE : If we go into that phase of the argument we will find that the hon. member for \Varwick nnd his friends are very much more blam<'worthy than any member of this Administration for that. LPt '"' deal with the point that I am dis­cu<~ing-the deficit and its cause. First of all there \\ ,b the increased interest bill built np by ·hon. gentlemen opposite. Secondly, therP, were the providential visi­tations; thirdly. the Pxpanding ,;ervice. We know that the activities of the State are coustantly expanding and the population is increasing.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: The population is not increasing.

l\Ir. LARCO:\IBE: If the hon. gentleman loolu in the last Financial Statement, lw will find that the popubtion is increasing.

:\Ir. ELPHI:<:STOKE: V cry slightiy.

Mr. LARCO:\IBE: There arc a very large number of Queemlunders a.broad ut the pre­vent time whi<:h "ould make the population very much larger than it is at the prceeut time, but even apart from them, if the hon. gentleman looks up th-· returns published by the Tr,'asurer, he will find that the popu­lation is increasing. The expanding services contributed to ~he deficit. \Ve know tk,t the expanding activities of a State require constantly increasing expenditure, and that led to the deficit. And, fourthly, increased prices for material as a result of war con­ditions. Then, last of >Cll-all these matters \Vere trivial compared with the last -th0 grc·atcst of all rpasons for the deficit was the refusal of the Lc!(islative Council to p " our financial me.tsur-cs. If those mc;!.·mres had been passed there would have bec·H no d<>ficit at all, but a surplus. I can imagine that hon. members opposite would have been satisfied if there was a surplus, and the\' would have looked on it as a virtue if there had been a surplus, Th, re would have been a surplus if those measures had been pac·-ed, but because tho,<e measures were not passed, and there happened to be a defieit, hon. member· opposite think there is something seriously wrong with the finan­cial control of the affaiJ'o of this State.

Hon. \Y. H. BARKES: You got a gre'tt deal more from income tax than you expected.

Mr. LARCOMBE: I do not deny that, but I say that if our taxation measures had been passed we would have had a surplus. As I have stated, we had to spend £85,000 in connection with the floous and cyclones, and £500 000 for increased wages to the public se;vants as the resul·~ of arbitration awards. That makes a total of somethmg like £600,000 of extra expenditure which this Government could not avoid at all. It \vas ab·-olutely unavoidable, and was greatly in ,, .CPc of the £409,000 deficit shown in the financial return last year. l want to refer to the question of surpluses in the other States. Th<' " Courier" and ·' Telegraph" gloatingly mention the fact that ther<;> were surpluses in the other States. I admtt that there were surpluses in smne of tho States last year, but in 1916-17 ""they nearly all had deficits. The fact that they had surpluses last J ear ·was due to now taxation. Th0y \Y0re

inore fortunate with their Legislative Councils than we were in Queensland, and thcr got thf'ir taxation measures through. That IS the simple pxplanation of why they. had sur­pluses there last year. But thor;; IS another fact to bear in mind, a.nd that 1s that they did not all have surpluses last :.-ear. Tal<e \Vcstcrn Australia. for instancB; that true blue Torv State. Last year they had a deficit of £705.000. and en a population b:.c-is tha.t would be equal to £1,500,000 in Qu('c:lslancL

:\1r. MOORE: Comequ·:.nt on the Labour PxhaYagance thm·e.

::\Ir. LARCOMBE: I am giving you facts in r('plY to the criticisms and contentions of the To;·v Prc-.·. The ac~nmulatPd deficit in W cstern Australia "as £2.770,000. That Is ihe glorious result of true blue Toryism m \Y t'stcrn Austr;.Jia.

Hon. W. H. RARNF.S: Can ~-ou tell uo what happened to the Labour GovcrnmBnt in \V est ern Amtralia '!

:\Ir. LARCO:\IBE: The hon. gentleman know3 what happened when the Labour Go,~ernment (<,_nne into po-,ver in Queensland. (Heat, he, r! a1 cl GoYcrnment laughter.) A short timP ago the hon. member for Buhmba \\·as complaining about the number of new tnotor-C'ars \Vhich the prr ".etJt Troasurer \Va,: ll'ing, but the Trcasurrr replied stating th_at he did not havE' a new ntotor-car, but ne u -ed the one y;hich had previously been used bv the horL member for Bulimba himself, a;rd he found it very comfortable. (Laugh­ter.) The hon. gentleman recollects th":t. I want to emphasise the fact that there IS an aceumnlat·•cl deficit in 'Nestcrn ~\.ustralia of £2.770,000. I want to point out also that in New South Wales, although they had a surplus last year, they have a large accunm­la!Pd deficit.

:\Ir. G. P. BARKES: "Cnder a Labour Adm;nistration.

Mr. L.\RC0:\1BE: No. _\ tr_ue. bh;e Torv _'tdministration, a Tory-conscnptwmst Ad­ministration.

:Yfr. COLLINS: A combination of rats and blues.

Mr. LARCO~IBB : In South Australia, under a true blue Torv Government, they had an accumulated deficit of oYer £1,00C.OQO althourrh thev haYc a nominal surplus th1s vear. ::.So when "e analyse the ~gurc:s 'Vt1 find that whlercYcr Toryism has re1gned supreme the~- have had deficits, and large

Mr. Larcombe.]

1624 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

deficits at that. I think that these figures thww a very interesting sidelight on the T~ry rnle of the other States, and it. is quite <,ndcnt that there would be no relief from ~leficjts if we have a Tory Government reign­mg m Queensland. I want to make a. few references to the Ton; deficits in Qu8<_ns­land. To listen to the hon. member for Bulimba and his colleagues. one would think that we never experienced a deficit in Queensland until the Labour Govern­rr!ent took control. There was a nun!ber pre­nously. It is an old, old story, but it has an evergreen significance fer t"ho people of this State. 'fhe aggregate deficits during the occupancy of the Treasury benches of our opponents, between 1859 and 1904 amounted to £4,220,000. A huge accumu: lated deficit of £4.220,000-nearly double the accumulated surplus dm·ing that period. Then, agam, when we come to particular years .,, o find that between 1900 and 1904 there vos a large accumulated deficit. In 1801 the deficit was £528,000; in 1902 the deficit was £-131,000; in 1903 it was £191,000; or an ac!umulated d•.cficit during those y<mrs of £1.150.000 under the administration of our· prcd<>cc.-cors. \Vh:;- they have out­Hcrocled Herod in relation to deficits in Queensland. I ,,-ould like to point out, further, that thev had these deficits not­withstanding that thev resorted to the follow­ing Y('ry unsatisfactory ('Xpedients-they resorted to hcayy additional taxation, heavv increase in railway freig-hts, substanti~l reductions i_n the wages or public servants, hea>y ;;pecial retrenchment, lhe wholesale sacrifice of the public estate, using the funds f,m· 1:evenue purposes. Although we ha vo a c<c·ficJt we have not resorted to those very umatisfactory expedients. \Ve have not !"•·sorted to the obnoxion' poll tax that our opponents passed. \Ye have not rt'•orted to retrenchment of the public ··CI·vice, or to the wholesale sacrifi·.'C of the public estate. It wonld be very easy to secure a 'urplns on those conditions, but we consider that there is ':nore virtue and more satisfaction in hannll" a deficit. rather than doing those u_nsatT•;factory tlung" and having a disloca­tion of trade and depn,,ion .•xisting in the State of Queensland. It is onlv nec~%arv to mention the"e facts to realise t"he superioritv ~f Labour finance as compared with the lmance of our predecc'8ors.

I would like now to deal with the question of revenue. The revenue this year" as £8,491.000, compar<'d w1th £7.880,000 for 1916-17: an in­crease of £610,000. Because our revenue was so great and our expenditure out-balanced it. the Government have been accused of extrava­gance. But it does not prove anvthing of the kind. As a matter of fact, foi· the last twelve ylears there have been ~ucccseivc recor_d revenues in ~he. State of Queensland, and It IS the finest mchcation of the heolthv state of industry and finance that one ~ould have. Let me now refer to the revenue of our predecessors. It will be se0n that they enJoyed large increased revenues during the periods they were in power. In 19ll-12 the r< venue was £5,989,000. In 1914-15 the rev<>nue was £7.202,000. an increase in the three y<'ars of £1,213.000. During the thme years of Labour administration thE' incrc>ase has been £1.289.000. So we see there has not UN'1l any material difference in the increased rcYenue nndcr the h\1·0 Govcrn­mente. Our rn·0deceswrs enjoy0d an increase of revenue amounting to £f213.000. and thew spent practically all the money they could

[2lfr. Larcombe.

lay their hands on, as the surpluses they had were little more than nominal. Again we find that New South Wales, since 1914-15, has enjoyed an increased revenue of £2,630,000; South Australia an increased revenue of £1,550,000; Victoria an increased revenue of £1.740,000; and Queensland, an increased rcn'nue of £1,289,000. Last year the increase in X ew South Wales was over £1,000,000; in Victoria, £800,000; South Australia, £657,000; and Que<>nsland, £610,000. The aggregate revenue for the Australian Stat-es in 1814-15 was £47,000,000, and in 1917-18 it was--Bstimated-£52,000,GOO, an increase of £5,000,000. So we see there has been a genpral tendency towards increases right throughout the Australian State,.. I come now to some of the details of the revenue. First, in rPlation to the Commonwealth returns; the amount rc•ceived last year, £842,857. If we take a three years' compari­son, ·,ye find our opponents enjoyed a much grPater revenue from that source than we have. For the three year:. 1912-15, they enioyed an increase of £70,751. During the three yc·ars the present Government have been in power the increase has been only £15,000. I ·am pointing out that the increase as very large under our prede-l'e•sors; and I am pointing it out because the hon. member for Bulimba and his colh:ague over-emphasised the fact of the increased exnenditurc. X otwithstandiitg the increase, I think there have been some unfair deduc­tions from on,· revenue. In the firat place, the Fedcra:l Government pave most im­properlv deducted revenue that should have been pavable upon the Queensland soldiers at the fi~ont. The amount involved is some­wlwre between £30,000 and £40.000. 'fhe deduction of that amount ha, been most illl!Jropcr, becau3e these men are still Que<'ns­land citizens; they still have their elector~! rif!htS, and are still able to take up land m Queensland. and, that being so, they are to ali intents and purposes. Queensland citizens. and the 25a. pc'r c:t pit a should have been paid on those soldiers who are abroad. I sec no arg-ument in favour of tl~f? clB~duction. There is another unfair deduction in our r0venue, "nd that is in conntction "·ith the interest otl the FedHal war loans. As hon. members know. the State Governments are unable to tax the ir,terest on the Commonwealth loans. I think that is a most unfair and most nnsa6sJactorv arra.ngernont. The increase in taxation that has be,~n impo eel will fall rn.ost heavilv and unfairlv nnon tho·'e who have noir monev invested in the Commonwealth war loans anCi the State is suffering, to a gr~at ~xtent, by having that area of taxation source prohibited.

In the railwav mvenue there is an inorea~e of £186.317. There would have been a much greater increase but for the absnnce of the men at the front. \Ve know they were men who used the ra.ilways personally, and many of them were sPttlers who ·-ent produce over the railwav !, and their absence h:s greatly affected r~ilwav revenue Then, again, the eoncccsions tha·t have been grant<'d to re­turned soldiers and th" rc>lative' of the 'ol-

diers at the front also tended [9 p.m.] to reduce the railway rev0nue.

Then there is a further aspect that I would like to refer to in regard to our railway revenue. The railway revenue, to my mind, is most unfairly suffering at the present time because the iand tax revenue is not paid into the railwrry

Supply. [21 AUGUST.] Supply. 1625

revenue. At the present time the State has ~omething . like . forty millions of money­mvested m . rMlw~ys, a';ld the Railway Department 1s deb1ted w1th that amount. It 1s expected to provide the interest and redemption on that money and that being su, I think that th~ land tax revemte should be paid into railway revenue: land, apart from population has no value, and if there were n~ railways in the country there would be no population. The increased values given to th<> land a~ ": result of the expenditure of that. forty mllhons of money has made it po~s1ble to get the land tax, and that being so, I think that the money should have been paid into the railway revenue because tile redemption of that forty millio'ns is charged to the. Railway Department. Of course, I know 1t has been argued that this would <July be a _bookkeeping entry. But it would be somethmg more, because it \\l.JUld have a very important bearing on the adjustment of fares and freightE. (Hear, hc·ar !) The rn·b;ent efl-L iency in the railwav~ revenue would not be as great as it i" at the present time. Last year the railwav revenue suf­fered, I maintain, to the ext~nt of £344,000 -the [~mount of the land tax payments-and altogether. since we han• imposed a land tax. we have collc•·,ted £950,000; and I think all of that should have been credited to raihvay revenue.

l come now to the question of land revenue. I notice that there has been an increr!'c of £151.000. I notice also that grazing and agricultural selections Lre re­sponsible for £611,000 out of a total revenue of £1.088.000. Pastoral leases and occu­pation licenses provided onlv £477 465. Tht; rent t~f selections alone is fsrcater than that-£491.roo. It is interesting to know that 1 he wealthy pastoral industry only paid 44 per cent. on the lane! revenue. I think that is a ju .tification for the Land Ad Ammdmnnt Bill that has been introduced bv the )W<'sent Government. It shows, I thin!;, eon°lusively, that the y;ealthy pa.storal in­dustry is not hearing its fair '-lhare of the burden in this State. That industrv was worth in 1913 £11,616.000, and in l917 it was worth £13,980.000, a tctal incrca3e c£ £2.364,000 in the State of Quccn.-bnd. When we consider those facts .and figures we mu~t r< alise. I think. that the indu,trv Cien nav a bi,·ger 'hare of the rcnmw of the com~trv than. rt is paying at the present time, partJcularly when we realise that agri­eu1tural and gra:-:ing Rt"'lections are paying more of the la.nd revenue than those other item . The industry in Australia has in­«n~asecl in value since 1913 to the extent of £27.000.000. The wealthv classes who receive those increasH are complaining about ,;ur increaced taxation, no"t the people of Queens­land. generally, at all.

The next item I wish to discuss is taxation rt'venue. I notice that there has been an mcrease of £197,000, and <'111' opponents. of course, refer to the total increase and to the increase for last vear as "rushing in their nature. But I wot1ld like to point out that in other States there haYe been incrcasGs. I would also like to point Dut that the " Courier" a few mornings ago, <Jn t~e 19th August to be precise, pointed out m their leading article that the tohl taxation. Federal and State. was only £10 11er hf'ad, whereas in Great Britain it was £20 per head, and they argued, therefore,

that ours was comparatively light. But· when they argue in regard to State finances they argue that it is heavy anJ crushing. \V c find that they blow hot and cold; one does not know when to accept their arguments. I do not think it is a question of the absolute ?r total taxation; it is a question of its mcide':ce or distr_ibution. (Hear, hear ! ) That 1s the questiOn that should concern members. \Ve know th!Lt John Stuart Miil and Adam Smith many )Cars ago-150 years ago. at least-laid down several canons of taxation, including equality, convenience, certainty, and economy. The Labour party have given much fuller expression to the canon of equality than their opponents have ever done, and they have been proceeding in accordance with that canon of taxation in a satisfactory, and, to my mind, scientific manner, and in doing ~so they have adjusted the burden so that the people generally are not suffering. vVe know, for example, that it is not total wealth that counts. Look at America. Look at the tremendous national wealth of that country. But we find that a few millionaires like Rockefeller own vast shares of it, individuals enjo:y ing incomes with twelve millions, and on the other hand many people somr-times on the verge of st"'rvation. \V e find th<J same in England. And just as it is not the actual wealth of a countrY that determine' the welfare of the people: so the actual taxation is not what determines the crushing na lure of the burden or otherwise. It all depends on the incidence and distribution. (Hear, hear.)

I notice in a recent issue of the statis­tics of Queensland that 1,600 persons en­joyed an income from personal exertion of £4,980,000, paying a total tax of £150,000, whilst on the other hand 11,000 persons e:1joycd an income of £2,634,000, paying a tax of only £12,000. So we see there that the burden of taxation is fairly distributed. It is the wealthy section of the community who are bearing the burden a~nd not the people generally. Take, again, the question of our income tax c:xemption, and compare it with those of other States. In South Australia the exemption is £150, in Victoria £150 on incomes from £200 to £500, in Tasmania £125, and in the Commonwealth £156, as compared with £200 in Quecnsla.nd. So we see that the exemption granted to the small man is much more satisfactory in Quepnsland than in most of the other States. In refet·ence to land tax ,,xemption, we find that it is higher than in Victoria, where the exemption is only £250, or \Vcstern Aus· tralia, where it is only £50.

Mr. GRAYSOX: \Vhat about South Aus­tr1.1ia?

1vlr. LARCOMBE : I am giving some of the States and showing that the exemption is lower in Queensland than in some of the other States, at least where our opponents are in power. Then, again, look at the various exemptions there are under our land tax in Queensland. There is no tax on land in process of alienation, no taxation on land tbe unimproved value of which is only £300, and then the deduction of income tax pay­ments which is made from land tax pay­ments. Further, there is the provision that enables the Commissioner to make rebates when a settler proves to his satisfaction that he is unable to meet the tax. The totai remitted in that way since 1915-16 has been

JYlr. Larcombe.]

1626 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

£35,000, so that I think on the question of the distribution of taxntion we have more to be thankful for and satisfied with in Queensland than the people of any of the other States. \Ve compare more than favour­ably with the other States of Australia.

There is another aspect of taxation to which I would like to refer, what may be h·rmed the profiteering aspect of taxation. That is an important aspect never touched upon b:; members opposite. The people of Queensland and of Australia are being bled by mean.,• of indirect taxation day after day, 1veek after Wfir;k, in a crushing manner, and yet we hear no complaint from hon. mem­bers opposite. Many years ago thot eminent statesman, Wil!iam Pitt, pointed out that yon could tax the rags off a man's back a.nd. the la·Jt bite from hi3 mouth without hearing any complaint about high taxes aml that observation is just as true to-day as it was when it was delivered over a cen­tury ago. To-day we have a striking example and illustration of it. The people of Queens­land are not being protected by the ~ ational Federal Government against priceo which ar. soaring to a gre:~t height. There has been no effective att<;mpt made to bring into operation th<: price-fixing machinery which tbe Federal Goyernment have at their di&posal for the protection of the p.;ople. LcL us hk' one or two instances of articles the price of V\ hich has been considerably in­creased. Kerosene beforl;) the war was 7s. 2d. P''r tin, and in January. 1918.. the pric<' had increased to 13s. 6d. During the same period the price of benzine increased from 13s. 4d. to 23o. 8d.-an increase of 80 per cent. The profits of the Vacuum Oil Com­pany in 1915 were £400,000 on a capital of £800,000, and in 1917 their profit~ were £570,000 on the came capital. W ~ find that tltese scandalous increases in the prices of ktrospne and benzine are taking place, and yet the companies are doubling their pro­fitv. The Federal Government have this matter in hand, and yet they make no attempt to protect the people of Queensland and of A nstralia against these ex01·bitant i"'creases in prices. Look at the bungling manner in which the Federal Government are dP,aling with the meat question. The pe.ople of Australia are being fleeced by the high prices which are charged for meat as the result of the unfair attitude taken up by the pastoralists. \Ye know that the cost of production has not been increased to anything like an amount corresponding with the increase in prices; yet the Federal Government are vacillating and weak wht)re the people's interests are concerned, and refuse to accept t]B recommendations of the Interstate Com­missiOn. On two occasions the Interstate Commiss.ion made ·!,~presentations to the Froeral Government, and they refu,ed to accept them, and now they are trying to force on the people in the trade pricee which are bringing about a meat famine in some parts of Anstralia. It is true that they have not :~pplied their price· .. to Out'ensland. The FE'deral Government say that the Queens­land Gm·ernment have taken their own method of dealing \vi't:h the matter, and it is not necessary to apply their meat prices to Queensland. They practicllly say that prices are being kept within reasonable bounds here by means of State cnterpris~ in Queensland, and that, I think, is a great compliment to the prt .. ,ent Government.

[Mr. Larcombe.

I should like now to give a fmv further samples of crushing taxation. I have a list of the undistributed profits and reserves of sewral companies in Australia. The follow­ing table show,; the undistributed profit, and resen-es of the companies mentioned in the years 1916 and 1918 :-

Company. 1916.

Adelaide Steam-ship Company ...

Huddert, Parker ... Melbourne Stc•am­

ship Company ... Gnion Steamship

Company Burns, Philp, and

Company Goldsborongh, Mort,

and Compan: .. Daigety and Oo .... lVlilliquin Com-

£

173,000 75,000

176,000

553,000

294,000

538,000 808,000

] SIB. Iuorease. £ £

395,000 122,000 308,000 233,000

229,000 53,000

722,000 169,000

498,000 204,000

615,000 77,000 852,000 44,000

pany ... ... 71,000 78,000 7,000 C.S.R. Oomp .. my ... 630,000 1,120,000 490,000 The Bank of Australasia in 1913 had a resern of £2.000,000, and in 1918 a reserve of £3,000.000-an incrc·ase during tlt'lt period of £1,000.000. Th0 Bank of- .:'\e\\ South Wales ,had a resene of £2,400,000 in 1913, and a reserve of £3,077,000 in 1918-an in­crease of £67'i.OOO. Those increasc8 are huge, and are unjUstifiable. They indicdte- the he a vv tribut~~ that is being levit~d dJ.ily on the people of Queensland, as 'Yell as the people of other State';' in the ComntOll'.·:c<l~th, by tho~,e grrat combinations. anG iJ~,· r1cans, of an indirect taxation which is ~o subtle that the people do not rea!i~e it at fi1-st sig-~L Yet those wealth:, compc,me' are corrp!am· ing of the slight increases pl'opo~~.t~d in our tnxation l;eycnue. rrhl?y are tr:dng· to gull the peop1 c' of Quc,'nsland into the belief that the Governn10nt are in1posing upon then1 heavv burdens of taxation, when•.1s the in­crease in the COSt of Jiying in one ye 1l' in Queensland, for which our opponent· are re>•ponsible. is many times more than the total amount of the extra taxation levied by the Ryan Administration.

I do not know that I have time to deal full:; with the qw'stion of expenditure, but I would like to make a few references to that aspoot of the subject. I am endeavouring to get through the material I have prepared. l know Lhut the most important thing in relatior· to a member's work is to 'atisfy his cons,ituPnt~ that he has ntade at least ono speech t!uring the currencv of the ses,ion. and in accordunce with that idea I proposed to speak for the full hour allowed me by the Standing Orders. Coming now to the qu~stion of expenditure. I should like to point out that b9hvec>n the vear 1916-17 and the vc r:r 1917-18 tlwro ha' been an increase of £'766.547 in the expendi­ture. A gTeat deal of unwarranted ~riticism has been ]evellec! again~t the Govurment because of this increase. T do not think there is anv e,·idence- of anpalli11g extravagance. and I am of opinion that the inferences drawn and th£· deductions made from the figureq ar0 n.-ithe;· logical .'JOl' ;air . Let me now refer to the mcrease m cxpPnditure for the period of two years under our prt•de­cessors in office. Their exnenditure ;n 1910-11 was £5.314,736, and in the ye·tr 1911-12 it wac; £5.9~5.692-or an incrf'ose of £650.956. The increase between 1912-13 and 1913-14 was £590,419. making a total increase for tiJOse two vcars of .-£1.241.375. Dnring the la.<t two years of the Labour Administration the

Supply. [21 AUGUST.] Supply. 1627

increased expenditure has amounted to £1,229,361 Put in another form, the average incre<tse for two years during the Labo~r Administration was £614,710 per yeM, while under the previous Government the averc.ge increase was £620,630 per ye<tr. The average increase durino- the Liberal Administration was £5,970 m~re per y< ar than under the Ln bour Administration, so thut I cannot see where the arg'um<;nt with refercnre to ex­trav.a~ancc comes In.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: We paid our way, and you have not.

Mr. LARCO~lBE: The hon. memiJer know~ that his GoverniTI0Tlt .Jid not ha vo to nleet extra expenditure in connection with cvclonic disturbances, or for increases in '~Tages paid to })ublic ser . .rants. The previous Government p<tid a starvation r<tte ,Jf 1~ ages to public S(irV<mts.

Hon. \V. H. BARNES: That is not corn,ct.

Mr. LARCO:\.IBE: Report say:o that it is correct. and the fact that tho court made the award it did is proof of my ftatemcnt.

The CIIAIRMA:'-J : Ord0r ! The hon. member has cxh-1usted the time allowed him by the Standing Order.

:1Ir. ELPHI::"\STO:'-Jl~ (Oxle:1): 1 should liko to compliment the hoa. member for Keppel on the very moderate speech he has made. It is very different from some of the speeches we hav.o heard from other mer~bcrs on the other Eide of the House. If they were as moderate in their speeches ao the hon. member who hac just spoken, the attitude of the Opposition towards them would probably be more reasonable. 1 do not think I have taxed the patience of the House to any great extent since I have been here, and I do not intend to do so to-night. After rea·<iing the Financial State'llent, it does not S< ·m to me that there is very much in it to criticise, bec·ctuse it simplv follows out what has been the pror himed }Joliov and platform of the party to which the Treasurer belcngs. \Ye know perfectlv vel! that thev have set tlwm­selvcs out to- achieve cer•ain thinc;s and to ~Secure the ncce-;sary revEnlF); to accorni"Jlish that. They have l_aid themselves out to get 1noney from certain ~ourcei3, and a careful study of the Financial Statement shows that it is simply a corollan· of that po:icy, and that th. J have act· nnplishe-d Ci·dain things on the lines vhich thPy mnsidcr correct, and are rai~ing their revenue in the ·directions I have indicated. In the short time during which I intend to address the Committee I do not purpose dwelling upon figm·es to any great extent, because figures, as we all know, can be made to lie, and when th(' hem. mem­ber for Keppel points out that the accumu lated deficit in ·western Australia is a lecacv frmn past Torv Govcrnm(~nts, it it quite timC that we shoufd cease to advance tigw·es in support of arguments. vYhen the lwn. mem­ber for Marano& was looking for arg·uments the other night. in f<wour of Stat<? enter­prises, he mentiOne-d other cuuntnc's and evNv othcn· Stute e.xceptim;· Vi'estern Au., .. tralia. ·which has had more ex1wricnee in the direction of State enterprises than an;- other State in the t::ommonwoalth. Having regard to that significant omission on the part of the hon. gentleman, it is ob.-iou;; to us that that Statehas had a disastrous expcri<'nce of

State enterprises, and that the present National Government has had a sctd legacy handed down to it as a resu:t of those State enterprises. I intend to-night to <lirect m_y remarks in a prettv broad way, because It seems to me that the question of Estima.te· or of the financial condition in this 8tate Is one which is affected to a very large extent by issues far out&ide the Sta tc of Quecnslu_nd. I intend to devote fi few minutes of the trme allotted to me to a rderence to th?. eff~ct which thi, WM is having upon the btate of Queensland, and also to refe,· .t<~ tlw support "\V1hich the ar should be rece1v1ng· frurn ~he present Governn1ent and the party occ_upy111g the Trc>asury benches at thP present time I mn re1ninded that sorr1e f0w years ago, \''!1en the "ar broke out, the th<en Labcur Prllne Minister was lauded from end to end of the Comr.wnwr·1lth for his declaration that . '-..us­tralia would provide the last man aud the last shilling to auomplish its object. That statement was approved by every ri;,;ht-t_hmk­ino- man in _\.mtralia. I am aho rnmnded oi" the fact that th~ Premier of this St~t~, when he was last in Europ<\ had tire peJYI­leo·c of vi<.iting the front, end made a very e;cellent speech to the congrec:at~d troops there, where hP ~c•romised them that, when he rpturned to Quer·nsland, he wvuld see t~ t they received all the ;upport !1 C';'"l? gJV'f them to heln them to carry out their ,earfu" ordeal. I ain also reminded th<tt nc~t so l~ng ao-o the Prunier lent his name to the •ecunng of 1,000 recr:1its to support th.e m,-n at the front and to give them the relief which. they are entitled to e·xpect I am also r~mmded that some of the Minicters 09posrte take udvanh!l;e of the opporhmitie·s wfnch the opening of Anzac cottages present to tell the people congTegat cd round thon what wonderful things the Government. havE done and are going to do for the sold1el "· . I i'm also reminded that, wh•'n the consenpt10n campaign was on us, Minioters pointed out that voluntaryism had not by any mc-3;ns proved ~ failure, an_d thftt to pass conscnp­tion until voluntaryism had .been exhau,ted was a nonstrous state of affaJrs. 2\;Gw, w~at do we fmd? After all this window-dres.smg and this gilt-edged portion of !he war, we find that the gPntlemen occupcing t_he Go­vermnent benches, with, perhaps, one tsolatHl exception-<tnd I ·commend that hon. gentle­man most lwttrtily for his acti,ms---takP up an attitude of magnificent .silence upun 1his matte1·. They allow evPryone else to do something to .h(•ln to win the 'var, and all the refc>rence thev make to the war is to the effc>d that the 1var has uron the> cost of carrving on the go.-ernment of the country. 'l'hcsf>. <ire the things which me.ke a man think. These are ti'ie things ":hich make a man sorry almost that he occupies a position of responsibility in this St.ate.

Mr_ MuLLAN: How long IS it since your conscience pricked you?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: My c·onscience is clear, and the consciences of many ho:r:. I~em­bcrs opposite might also he clear •f .J;ey listened to the appeals of the re~rumng srrgeant. There are man:~. hon. rnemoers on that side who would bP domg fct•' mor.e good to the conntry IJ~· serving· as soldiers msh·ad of occupying seats on those benches.

Mr. MuLLAN : It h•ok von a long tim~ before you heard the voice. of the recruiting sergeant.

Mr, Elphinstone.]

1628 S1tpply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

:\Ir. ELPHINSTONE: I knew that I ·would draw a perfect torrent of abuse and d interjections from hnn. members opposite Y:hen I was dealing with a que,tion of such 'nal importance to this country, and which hon. m<'mbers on that side have absolutely .;.turve.d with neg:ect. \Vhat seemed to me a .,·ery pathetic si:tte of affair, is to be found in the rerJort of a -peech made after his H·turn to ?\ ~w South Wales, by a prominent 1ALbour man who has been visiting Queens­innd durin!~· the last month or two on a re­Cluiting campaign. Mr. Peter Bowling is

•·l·Orted to han· used these wor-ds-" He had rc·turned from 3 two months'

tour of Queensland, where he had seen things which he hoped he would never see in ~ew So11th \Vales. The people appeared to think that everyone who stoocl on ,; recruiting platform was a traitor to Labour, but he hacl never etood on " bNtc>,· Labour platform. !Cheers.) Mr Bowling n•ad the mani­festo •lPlivcred bv 11r. Fisher at Bris­bane in 1915, iwd he ~aid that the country where they ha-d put Mr. Fisher at the h<''ld of the poll, he (the speaker) was accused of ·cleserting the Labour cause. (A Voice: NeYer.) A man who would mount a recruiting platform and pledge himself to stand by the boys at the front was a traitor to the Labour plcd')"e. It mad< his blood run cold to see the sneers <tt returned soldiers in Oucenslancl-eYen at the wounded men. IIe caw members of the Nationrdist party promin~nt on 0-Ycr.r recruiting platform, but he ha-d to w,;e a magnifying glass to spy out the Labour supporters."

}lr. GlEDSON: He was ll"Yrr a Labour 'P.;an.

:\Ir. ELPHI.!\STO:\E: Becaus•· :\lr. Peter E(l\Yling il[L~ had tht' IYHtnhoc'd nr'd the L~·cadth of Yiew t=nfficicnt to stnnd up for ihe cause of tf1e Empire his friends opposite disclaim him as a nwmbcr of their part.v. 'I' he same trcatn,ent ha' be• en meted out to <lther members •Jf their party on other occa­swr.s. I will leaYe that sonwwhat unplcaBant Slcbject, and will refer nov: for a few minutes ~o the Sh+e financing as applying to the conduct of the '' ar. It has heeD laid -down b~ those resp<m~ible for th" conduct of the "ar in •be Conm::onwcalth that the essential -thing· is to stndy f~c>onon1y in cyery degree. It has been J!Ointed out that it is C'sential trat saYin"s ehc,ukl br· effected in every ;Fraction, and that i"he States should cur­tuil their cxp8nditurc f:o a lTl'!Xiinuin extent. Yet. in r0acling the financial history of the f'.tato of Qn<•ensland, we find that, so far fron1 f'nrtailing cx!)enditnt·e and nursing tl eir re-.ources since the outbreak of the war, the States of Australia ha vc increased tr~ir taxation per head hy no le's than 42 per r .•nt. \Ve fir.d also that the public ex­pr·nditure has i'1crcased b:v no less than 12i per cent. That is how the States, among , hich Quc,'nslan(l is so prominent. arc as­" j,ting to finance this war dnrl to meet the. conntrv's ohlirrations. Coming- to a few -details" rcg,rdi;,g- the position. "\,-e find that, ~inct' rhis Government. cmrP into power, during thc whol2 of which period this war has been in progre~s, thP rcvenuP of the Stat.J has increased from £7,700,000 to .£9.100.000-that is the ,,timated revenue !or this C'-lrrent year. \Ve find that the

[Mr. Elphinstone

expenditure, which in 1915-16 was .£7,670,000, i' estimated this year at £9,100,000. These are f~norrnou'3 inC'~'ea,s,_ at a time whPn we should Le concentrating· our whole energy on the financing vf the war. To '3orne of us who are end,:avottring to secure the support of this State in connr~ction with the war loan, it appear" that the State is increasing its cxpenclihrre bv leaps and bounds. As I i.ave said be'oi·e I do not intend to criticise the items in tl!0 Financial f\tatement, be­c,;use we have known and bc·.cn taught what to expect. I am simply looking at the qnes­twn from the pe.rtic·.1lar point of view that the possibilitie, of finance are limited in this State, and that our first 'fluty should be tovvard'" the financing of th~; ·war; and, if \Ve ~tl~e goinq· to deplete ot:T resources by ijlereasing onr r: tab""' expenditvre, it must cbviously follow that we arc going to inter­f<'re ver.v materi&!ly with the financing of the war.

Xow, on the question of loans. It must be frank!.;.- admitted we are still tearing ahead with loans; that the State has what you mi&ht call " capped the bill" on this occasion

" by borrowing from the Common-[9.3J p.m.] wealth more money than any

other State. That may be notor­iet.\, but, in 1ny opinion, jt is very undesir~ able notoridy. with conditions as they are in the State at the present moment. I should also point out that the interest we have to pa·c for loan« to-day i' 50 per cent. greater than it was in pre-war time,;. 'I'hese are facts upon which hon. gentlemen opposite do not se,,m to lay special stress. They do not seem to understand that these are accu­mulated obligations wo ·have to face; and v, hen you consider that, on a public debt of something like £60,000,000, our interot rat-e i•; going to be increased by 50 per cent.,. it is an obligation which hon. memhers opposite do not nndorstancl. Thev are simply living in the present. All they consider is the dicct which expenditure is going to have upon the present generation-upon the men at present in employment, upon the prP'Gnt state of this country. The:y forget that th_ey ha'vc to look after the rrghts of posterrty aho; that if it were not for the operations of pioneers year' ago they would not be in the position they are io·day; ancl that they, as public men-men to whom is entrusted the welfare of this State-must look ahead if they are going to dabble in finance; that the man who is going to he a financial success has to lcok ahead as well as to the present moment. I ,vould point out to hon. members opposi~e that during the next-pcobabl7-five or SIX YC <,rs some £20,000,000 of loan money falls clue for p '·"·ment. I would ask hon. members opnosite how they propose to pay for that 9

The Treasurer has instituted the precedent of wiping out sinking funds. Any man who handles finance knows perfectly well that the onJv \"IJ a:., vou can 1ncet vour cbligations in cm;necti~n" with debts which fall due years hence is to e~tablish a sinking fund. so that, year by year, you put aside a ceetain ~um which-along w<ith accumulated intorcst-;­wou!cl amount to tho sum total of your obh­gations ancl permit of your meeting them in a proper manner. \Vc are wiping out that precantion for the simple reason that wo "ant the moneY for uso in 0ther directions. That is a trouble for someone else to look aftCl' later on. '' \Ye want the money for our ovm purposes-to carry out our party platform. 'l'herc:ore. we will wipe out the

8.tpplr.

precaution of a ;,inking fund. and utilise that mono:;· for immediate needs.·' I have repeated frequently in this House-and I intend <loing so as long as I am privileged to be here-that it ig the duty of eYery member of this House to look to the financing of this State. All that we are doing at the present moment-all J.hat this Government has done-is to borrow. The time is coming whnn it has to pay back, when those very men whom they look upon as parasites of the cornm,~Dity, but whose money they are only too glad to make use of almost at any rate of interest, have to be paid back. For the• credit of the Stat<> ihat position has to be faced. There o.re three methods left open to this State when its loans fall duP. One method is to find th<, money to repay these loans-which, I calculate, it is impossible to do under existing circumstances. Another method is to ask for a renewal of the loan -which wonld mean a considerably enhanced rate of interest. The third alternative is to raise the money intern~tlly. 1\ow, will these hon. gentlemen opposite-who al'G tak­ing good care to tax capital to such an extent that it is going to disappear [rom thPir mio.lst-tell me where they are going to raise the monev to rep a v th,,,e loans? · I presume their fcmd hope<. are stick;.ng to the problematical success of State enterprises. They imagine that the State sawmill deficit of £7,000 is going to be converted into a great profit of many more thousands; that they are going to get vast sums of money from stations and butchers' shops which will per­mit of their meeting these doficiences and thc·<e accurnulatPd loan repayments. Those -as I have previously pointed out-are simply idle dreams; and, when hon. m<>mbers opposite are more versed in finance and its intricaci,os-as the hon, member for Brisbane frequently points out, when he, has studied the question of high finance, he and his colleagues will be rrore capable to eriticise this question of finance and advanced legis· lation which will permit of our meeting our obligations.

Mr. Kmw'x: Do vou call the bank smash of 1893 high finance? 'I' hat is the wreckage caus_ed by some of your party.

Mr. ELPHI~STO="JE : I would like, now, to direct a few remarks to the attitude of the Government towards returned soldiers. \\' e frequently haYe heard proclaimed from the other side of the House-we hear it pro­claimed whenever a Minister meets returned soldiers, and we hear it frorn the platforms of .Anzac cottages-that this Government is " The" Government of all Governments for lr.oking after ihe returned soldiers. I admit that this Government, in a very limited way, is ende:c vouring to do something for retm·ned soldiers. I admit that, up to date. they have accommodated no less than the magnificent number of 336 returned soldiers. I admit that. of that number, 62 have abandm10cl their land or farms, o.s the case may be, which the GoYernm(•nt have helped the~ to obtain. The point I want to make is this-that is another indication of the small and narrow view with which hon. members opposite face tlwir responsibilities in this matter. vVhu t is the position? You aro simply dealing with a few hundreds of I he .e n1en. You will have to deal with thousands of them. and many thousands ; and the •e small-what. shall T say-narrow ways of finding occupations fOr these men are very nice for window-dressing,

Supply. 162!}

for showing to returned soldiers who come in tens instead of thousands-as they will do-what you are doing for them.

Mr. FOLEY: Is there any Government that has done as much?

1\!Ir. EL PHTNSTONE : Yes; there 1s another way of dealing with it. I will tell you, but you probably will not understand. 'This is merely playing with the situation. ·what this Government has to do is to face the position with a very much broader view, otherwise they will find themselves simply reaping t.he whirlwind and facing a position that will carry them off their feet. What is the posit-ion of those men who have taken up land? The Government have denied them the very right which the,•e men have given members opposite-the right to a pi('Ce of land. This is a point upon which I f(•el most strongly. Tho<?e men have gone to fight so that our hon. fri<;:nds opposite can rciain their positions and possessions in thi~ country. When these men come home to clairn some consideration from us, all we propose to give them is a perpetual lease, which is subject to revision flVery so often, an 1 which is to be subject to the decision of temperamentally-fitted Land Court Judges, who can sim"ply dictate as to what that rent shall be-to such an extent, if they are so minded, as to render it impossible for a man to continue on a holding. I would likD to call att<>ntion to what the \Vestern Australian Govermnent-the same Government that is plodding along under the burd<>n of an accumulated Lctbour deficit-is trying to do for returned soldiers. I read from the soldiers' paper that Avondale E·;tate has been repurchased by the Government for closer settlement. It has been divided into 1,000-acre blocks for allotment to returned soldiers. the freehold price being £4 per acre, >vith repayment over a period of forty years without interest. Now, there is some practic1.l way of giving a man some­thing upon which he can place his sticks and call it his own. They give him this land, they charge him a nominal price­what you might call a peppercorn price­and he can call it his own, whereas we simply place them upon a piece of land at the will of the Land Court, at the will of an:v Government which can introduce legis­lation at some later stage, when there is nJ kudo'! to be gained from helping the rdnrncd soldiers-and that time is coming. \Ve can then state: "You have enjoved this privilege long enough. We must i1ow see that you pay on· the same basis as anyone else." I would point out that when these men come back thfly will not be looking for any charity. 'l'hey will merely be looking for an opportunity to live, and to exert their energi~s in a direction which their prob­ably maimed condition will permit. That is the lea-;t we can do for them. One hon. m em bcr oppo~ite has asked the cjuestion " ·what is it that this Government can do or that other Governments could do, to ~s8ist these m0n ?" l\'I v ans,ver to him now is. ns it has been c;ver ·since I have had the priYilege of occupying this position, that it is onlv by natural production that you can n1cct the position. You cannot create arti· ficial means of finding positions for these men. All you can do is to assist production to such an extent that when these men come back there i2 some groove waitinr: for them to fill, eomc natural demand for the labour which they can give, which will permit them

Mr. ElzJh£n8trme.j

1630 [ .\SSEMBL Y. J ::,uppt!J.

to step in and occupy it, instead of going <:ep m hand to any Government, or any patriotic movement, or any philanthropic institution, to ask for assistance. That is ih~ position, and in dealing with this ques­tiO!l of production I would like to read a few r<'marks which were made bv the president of our Chamb(lr of Commerce here only a few weeks ago. He said-

" The war debt of Australia will be a crushing or an easily cJ-rricd burden, just in proportion as we make or fail to make thf) vast resources of tho Com­monwealth bear it."

'Those are words o£ wisdom which I would <:omnwnd to hon. members opposite in all sincerity, because those are problems which we all, as public men, have to study. He ~aid-

" If industry is discouraged, eiJ\erprise thwarted, and thrift treated as an ex­ploded fallacy, we shall make no ad­vance, and the pressure of the intere9t bill will ;nake itself felt from the top to the bottom of the social and economic structure. If war is to be waged on capital, capital will take wings. If there is to be no co-operation between workers and employers, and if lawltJssness rather than reform is to become the objective of organised labour, we Phall reach a stage when, inBtead of being the envy of the world, w~ shall earn its contempt."

I would al~o like to read another extract from :C.Ir. "Wilson's speech, He wonders what there is in the conditions in Australia to makf\ even a sadly-misled minorih eager to expf)riment wiih their own freedom and the general welfare. He sa1 .,_

" "Why Bhould a country giving the greate~t possible political freedom pro­duce a class which was said to be pecu­liar to a despotically-governed country? It is a curious phenom<.lnon and also a dangerous one."

That seems to be a most extraordinary posi­tion. Here in a country where a man enjoys the g-reatest freedom and latitude in all his operation.~, he is striving to sectire by revolu­tiona,t·y nH ,ms more freedom-which freedom, in the proper sense of the term. is merelv license. These arc mv.;teries which we do not und<'l .tand at the "pre•,ent moment-that men in reoponsible positions should have the audacity to beguile the public which follow them into imagining that thev are leading them into the oasis where thev need no longer ork- where they will g;,t all the_, need to ker p them in happiness and strength without putting forward any effort to do it. These are myths which we have got to face, and they are myths which the question of pro-duction will wipe out entirely. The answer I give to anyone who questions what "-e are going to do with the future of the rcturne{f wldier and the future of this State, is that it comes hack to th<> one word­production. \Ve cannot stress that too much.

I have listened with a great deal of atten­tion to hem. members opposite with the object of learning as much as I can, because one must listen to both sides of an argument to form intellig-ent conclusions on questions of this sort, and I have heard them console themselves on the fact that Queensland was neyer more prosperous than it is at this moment; that. th~ b~nk _balances are huge, and the financral msbtutwns are prospering.

[ 111 r. ElJJhinstone.

I want to tell hon. members a few things, which probably they already know, but have not given sufficient attention to. Do they know that Great Britain, which forms part of the Empire to which we are proud to belong, has already paid or undertaken to pay, no IE~s than £287,000,000 to the C'um­monwealth , of Australia? Do they under­stand that a great part of that £287,000,000 is circulating in this country, and that all this reflected prosperity comes from the procee-ds of those paymE'nts? Do ihey understand that Great Britain at the present moment is millions of pounds out of pocket to pay for commodities which are not vet received? Do thev under­stand that the" whole cost of the wa'r at the prr•c'.'nt moment, which is something like £150,000,000 to the Commonwealth is only--

:\ fr. l\IerLAN: Yes, we undtlrstand your part;• is clisloJ a! to the Imperial Govern­ment by charging undue prices for products.

Mr. ELPHIXSTO.:-;[E: Shall I .;t down and g-iYe the hon. member a chance ?• Doe9 he understand that the whole of the loans to Australia is barely more than 50 per cent. of what Great Britain has P"id, or undertaken to pay, us in connection with the war? 'l'hf'se are the signs of prosperity which the hon. member for Keppel, and other hon. members, we, and which they translate as being a reflection of the wonder­ful financial control of the Labour Govern­ment. I am not here to draw invi·dious com­pari·.ons between what this Government and preyious Government<; haYe done. I can see no satisfaction in that-I am taking things as I fiurl them at the present moment. I say it is an artificial prosperity which has been occasioned by this war, that our friends opposite construe as being the natural pro'­perity of Queensland. I hope that Queens­land will be always prosperous, and anything I can do in my small ay will be ·devoted to that end, but I do not believe in a fool's paradise, nor in causing people who put their trust in us to live in a similar para­dise. Let us place the position before them as business men, and understand that unless we do something to encourage pro-duction and help along the natmal industries of Queensland we are going to be face·d with a position which I do not think hon. mem­bers opposite have been privileged to face-­and I say pri,-ileged advisedly, because it will be an a-dverse position, and one in which our best efforts will have to be put forth and teach us wisdom.

I vwuld like to devote a few words to the po•,it;on of the primary producer in the State. I think e\'ervone will admit that the primary producer is the backbone of the State. I want to point out-and it is a fact which I do not think any of us have given proper consideration to-that in a country which is thous:mds of miles awav from the consuming centres, which has no ships of it·; own in which to export its material­which is hidebound, as you might My. at the prese-nt moment-production and in­dustr:r must go hand in hand. It is no good having an excc·,s of primary production, unless at the same time you encourage in­dustrial pro(luction, which will create a natural outlet for primary production. That is a truism. In Queensland we have noticed that in years gone by, when the back coun­try has been adversely affe.cted by climatic and other conditions, those conditions have

Supply. [21 AUGGS'l'.] Supply. 1631

Loon reflected immediately upon the city of B1·ishane, and that demonstrates that we lh·e •)n the prosperity of the back blocks. To m.dw this State truly pro~perous we must encourage our industrial production to the same extent as we are endeavouring to encourage our primary production. Let them !50 h

0tnd in hand. If industrial pro-duction

lS aln·c, 1t creates a demand for primary proclnction; if primary production is alive it creates a demand for industrial produc~ tion. \\'hen we face that problem, and .primary and industrial production go hand Ill J, and, >Ye shall come to a verv much mol'l' comfortable economic position than we are in to-day.

What is the position of the man on the land·: I contend that he has been harassed .in every direction--in direction' which hon. m(•mbers opposite do not understand. Although it may seem strange to sav this I haYe been until comparatively re~ently' a man on the I and, and have felled timber built fen< es and houses, and planted orchard~ and yJ forth, and I speak with ~ome know­led!l·c •·f the subject. It is an experience wh1rl1 I commend to every hon. member who can ;,.N an opportL!nity of indulging in it, hccau<e. apart from the bodily comfort which he can get from it his mental vision is enlarged. First of all, the man on the land has i_,,, .. n harassed by price-fixi:;g. This is a .rhu1g. r. ca_n rlCvc·r un<;Iersta nd in price­fixmg; J! Ill times of sc'Ll'Clty the price which a 111<111. has to recciYe for his primary pro­·duct< 1< to be fix.ed, surely, to be logical, when there arc s1gns of plentv and ovcr­prC!cluction, .t~at man s.hould l_>e "protected by fixmg a mmtmu(ll pnce whteh the people arc to. pay for his p_rnducts. It should gn hancl m hand. In times of scarcity when ~he co~nmodity !s high in price, the tdndency :s to fix the pnce to the consumer. If that ts nght then,, 'Ye should al~o fix the price when commoditiCs are plentifuL

The PRDIIER: Do you belie.-e in that?

~Ir. T'LPHJNSTO~E: I b<•lieve that if price-fixing is to bo indulo-ed in then it should be indulged in from 'both sides-Loth when commocitie' are scarce and when they u_rc- plentiful. That is the on·]' logical posi­:twn to take up. The man oe the land is hara"ed, to _a . c~rtain exte;tt hy . land bxa,­hon. Ihc "vhm~tcr for EducatiOn smiles. I am a hrrr, belic.-cr in land to.xution "·hich will forc2 people to open up tracts of land ~'hi rh arc 11t'ld for ·,2lD··h purr,oses and not {t('Yelopcd as t1u?~ should be. ~uch a course is e~:;:.cntial and neces~~ry it• Grder to open L p ~hat lac, cl. But I do not believe in taxi.1:r s r11a!J. ,,:h? Is &truggLng with the i' 1Ptnr:nt"' ·ts a primary p1 ( 1(:ncer. Seeing i'hRt ;t has hc·cn r.dmitted in ~his House that the 1 -cvenua deriY<;d from lan.J taxation ap­Qilcrl t<; th•c lJOklmgs, of th~ primary pro­ducers ,_, only one-ten to of the tctal revenue ·cleriYed frotn latld taxution why not wipe ''ut that onc-~entli altogether a'Jd give him all the enco11ragement w~e can. Another thing that the man on the land suffers from is the harassment he receives throuo·h th.e Bcarcity of labour Owing to the attr~ctions of the town, and owing to t:,, fact that a man can go into the town nnci work for Eight hours-in many 'ases it is only half work-where he can get a h;gh rate of wages, where h(~ can get gl:od conditions which a man to-day sePks for, how can you

get labour f>:· the land? 'I he great difli­cult.y whtd, the country su!Iers from i" t(J

s~·curt' adPq;.wte and competent labour for tlte man on the land. Another way that we car. help the man on the land u this, ~tnd l cornn1encl it to the consideration or the GO\ et·nnwnt This is not the fir3t time that we have heard of this, but it is EL•cecsary to repeat it, and it is in relation to the qut'3'i"n of mpplyir,~ J·cads for the country districts. I know districts that are producing excel!f'Dt fruits a,nd other conl­moditi!''J, 1 ~ut \vhich it is pr.'• ti(~ally irrlpO<'\­siblc to g 't to the rnal'kt't. lwrause of the ft·arful r< ad conditions whid' thcv ha vo to face. If the Go.-crnment "ant to- assiot the 111 a,n on the land-anJ I ~Y~licve thew ar.: (Jesirous of doing .-.o-thrn hcrn is an Oppor­tunity o£ d )]ng it, and of noinr~ son1c per­math'nt good. EYcr~: Jpemr,.().r of this llou~f~ kno,vs that money Sunk in a good road b aa a ~et to t,bc State, but :r.~_1one:v t'unk in a savrrnill is only a pa~·'3ing pha.:;e, do1ng good t) no on~ The n1oncy ~unk ir a gcod ro~d a·.si:;::ts fl-]t~ f:tr:··Irr and enahl0s hin1 to brm~ his products to mark<>t, and is <tl wa:," money ' ell c pent It will be a ))"""' anPnt acset to the State an<l a rr•;clit to H-.c Go.-crnmcnt iEtrodu~jnp; lt. \Yh11 t t hP rnan on the land wants-and l:c <hould hayc it-is the ques­tion of rorrd <>.>mtruction takc'n up in '1

businc~s·lik0 wa~, and jn a rnaPner whJC"l wiJl prOYide lillf;lO'fiTIOllt, iu a lllanl181' whiCh will be a permanent rr·-.,et, .. mtl a credit to the department which takLs it in hand. Another thing tho man on the land is harassed by is the increased freig-hts on the raihvavF. That 1neans rcdnr('.r_l facilities for 1-im. ·r will ha v" mom to "av on that ques­tion when we are dealing wil h the Railway I~t.imate\\.

::\h. KIRWA:S: How much was put on by the other States as increas~·o.l freights and fares c

Mr. ELI>HlNSTONI<:: I c;o not want to touch on ten··!er spot;.

Mr. KIRWAX: You are mist· presenting the position,

:Yfr. ELPHIKSTONE: I·,,·n'asl'd fares and fr _-i;rhts onh makP th•.• no•oition of tho 1 rimary · proch:r·pr much hard; r and that is 1 he worst possible way to e~<c·muage him.

Mr. KIRvvn:: The_,, put rn £750 000 in VIctoria aml £500,000 in ::\'cw South Wales.

Mr. ELPIJI2\:8TONE: Jf the primary producer were given grcall'r facilities than Exist at H:t• pre3ent momcrd. even if it caused a deficit, then everyone on t;tis : idu vvould commend such a d dciency. The pwre facilit;os you gi.-e the man on the land tl' got his produce to marke, then the more ~e1dement you are go'ng to create, and that n1oans more producdou a11o tends to the p1·o<perity of the State gene.ully. but if you penalise the primary produ"·- r in any way then it only reacts c.n the State ;tself. 'I!, at " a qm·stion whic·h I wi I; also take the oj1!Jortumty of touching on ,.,-air at a later stage Ano~~~f?r matter \'~:hi,~~~ 1 might touch on is tl•e inr·ff:kiency- of om Department of Agriculture which is suppl'sur': to be the rulse of tht·) primary prodtLjng industry, The primary producer 1oob to the Depart­ment of Agriculture to give him technical

M.r. Elphin,toJ/f' .. :;

1632 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

ar1cl scientific n.dvice to comhDt the Yarious f'ests he m.··,ts. .\t the pr,es<mt time the Department of Agriculture is a department which by ma,tn:y inact.ivtty does nothing l.ut spend nwncy. It rcallv doC's not spend money to the extent I would like, provided it gave value for the money expended. Until t!1at clepart1nr..nt is expand~j in the way it sho:dd De, :md acts as the pulse of the ]·: oducin::; irodmtry of Queen•;]and, then BO

v.ill our pc'mury producti'Jn be restricted. I can spec'' on this matter from personal ('Xll()r;en< :._•. The prhnary producer wants the Departn.ent of Agricul+llre lo be like a <kctor to whom he < 'ln go for advice. If a man is sirk in body he goes to a doctor for advice and attention, and in the same way !Le primarv producer is looking for that l!uctor in hiC' cwn line of bw-.;ncss. At the 1 rc'jent tiine he 1~ suffering in every direc­t' on, hut h0 gets mighty li:tlA satisfaction from the Department of Agriculture. If hon. mcmhe"" had to depend on their doctors, and rccei,·ed only that relief which the primary woducns ;·cc•:•ive from the Dc11artment of Agriculture, then there would be very few J.on. me'lll>t'rs alive to·dav I will have IHc,re so sav on this sub~oct; ut ~ later stage. J ask the (}d, crnnwnt t(· consider one or two <-~ircrtions in \Yhich the pri:nary produC'<:.'r <:&n be matocriallv as,istcd T have nwn­tioncd tho qnestion of road making and I ltOW ref!::r to the question of l .. d.~er con~erva­toon. I am Dct talking on thi' 5Ubjcct just !or the sake of talking. I aJ'Yl trying to put a serious suggestion before the Committee. I spc1k on thiJ que'·tion of v. :;ter conserva­tion from the point of view of a man who has trav0J!,,d. That j, one of the great difficulties iP the way of hon. members op­posite, possibly not their fault, but if the:v had ,,n op:1ortunity of trav0iiing they would get a gr"a~ iLsight into many of the l ·roblems that !Jl''''ent thcmsel;-es in this State.

Mr. Kmw:.:.<: \Yhat ·did :J-,o last Govcrn­n~cpt spend ir· th::tt dircctior. '!

::'vlr. ELPHIKSTONE: I am not here to speak for the last Government. I was not in Parliament when the last Government were in power, and I would not be a member of anv Government which would be hidebound bv- Toryism or anything else that would pre­y(, ut the'le problems from being cured. Water conservation is one of the things which this Statn is in need of at the present time. By mL an, of water conservation we could open up large tracts of land which at the present time are quite useless. I am sorry the l10n. member for Bowen is not ·here, as he coulJ bear out my contention with regard to the Bowen district, in which be is interested, and \Yhich I am n lso interested in. On the banks of the Don River ther0 are something likP sixtv £arn1ers on a narro\v ne,:~k of ]and which is' suitable for growing fruit. 'Those sixh· farms are with;n an area of 3 or 4 n1il~s, yet they have sixty vr seventy irnga­tion plants. Every man has his own engine, every man has mnk hi·' own well, and every man gets his own water. Look at the time \vast~d bv every rnan starting his own enginf\ whereas ~Yith one proper system of irrigation. applied on proper scientific lines. every one of them would be supplied with water. Jt would economise their time and labour and be an investmen~ to the State. Far-seeing

[Mr. Elphinstone.

people would have noticed the advantage it would have been to ha;-e gone in for a proper system of water conservation in that area.

Another question that I would commend to their consideration is the storage of grain a.nd fodder. We in the State oi Queensland know-if we study the cycle of seasons we know quite well the time will come and mu,;t come when we are faced with drought and the shortage of fodder, ancl in this State of Queensland what is better for the 'Jovern· ment than to spend its trust funds or any other funds in the conservation of fodder, so that in times of drought and m timco of scarcity they can go with 'he ma~ernal hand, which they s.hould holtl out, and a>'sist those· men who <ire not sufficiently far·Beeing tu make provision for themsclYes. Another· qu0stion I would like to refer to is the matter cf cotton production. Thc'e arc questions which are worthv of consideration. This. State of Queensland, which could produce­under proper control probably all the cotton that the world requires, what is it doing'? A few tiny acres under cotton It is prac tically conspicuG us by its abs<:mce. Cotton can be grown here, and yet what are we· doing? Spending money to compete with people in State sawmills-spendir.g money in directions which cannot be of any use. Instead of spending money on entnrprises which are vote-cakhers, spend money in o. broadminded way which is going to be of some benefit to your children and some benefit to this State.

The SF.CRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : You cannot get the farmers to go in for it?

Mr. ELPHINSTO::'\IE: You can get the farmers to go in for it the same as they have in other parts of the world. If the hon. gentleman has tra veiled in the U mted States of America, let him see what ha& been done there. Let him see \vhat has been done in Egypt. They will enter into the undertaking if they get the nece,sary en­couragemnt. I am quite prepared to adm1t that when you are dealing with producers you are dealing with a class of man, who, on account of the iwlated life he lives, is slow to appreciate the advant.Jges he may receive. but it is our dntv not to bow down to that difficulty, not to .. sav here is a dif· ficulty, and, consequently, we" will do nothing, but to go further and try and educate that man into what he can do for himself and for the State. There is another question, and e. very important one-that is the grow· ing of tohacco in Quc"nsland. Errch a>1d · every one of us knows that Qucensl and can produce as excellent tobacco as can be pro· durcd in any part of the world.

'!VIr. KIRWAX: You s:CoulJ have u \H!rd "·ith the combine in rcgnrd to that.

::\1r. ELPHI~STONE: '\Ye have a Govcnt· mcnt in oflice which has power to stop com­bines of that description. I am not hiking of any combine. I em biking for thP benefit of Queensland. In 1915 we haC! 469 acres under t-obacco in Queensland, and iu 1917 it was reduced to 370 acres. and I dare so1y in 1920 it will ha\'o disappeared altog .. th·r; vet thf're were 814 tons of tobacco imnort.ed into Au•,tralia last year, and the value of it, with the Cluty, was no less than £2.2.50,0GG storl ing. Now, it eost the consu"lre~& £2,250,000 to import from oth,,r countries a

Supply. [21 AUGUST.] Supply. 1633

commodity which we caa grow in our midst here. 'l'hese are not fcolish words. These are words "hich are worthv of consideration. Here a few years ago ·ve had a tobacco expert. For some reason or other he had outlived his time or his usefulness, and he went back to the United States of America., and since then no effort has been made to replace him. There is another .)pportunity, as I point out, of doing some permanent good for the State of Queensland, an oppor­tunity which returned men can tcadilv take up and follow without ,.n. sembla;;ce of charitv. without any semblance of anything but giving thelY!. an opportunity to live, and these are directions in which that can be done

. Another qnesti0!1, which, p~rhap·•, is of httle lo'.s ,-alue. IS the question of wattle baric \Vattle bark is becnming quite au industry in South .\frica. The tannin is extracted from the bark and the residue is used for paper making, both verv necessary industries which I contend it is the dub· of the State to encourage. I argue, and will con­tinue _to argue while I have any breath left, wh:v mterfere with any established industry when. there are so many opportunities of crcatmg fr£<·h industries? If vou a'>sist men to find markets for new products you are performing functions for which vou were elected, and functions which you ~re quali­fied to fulfil. These are directions in which I sincerely hope attention will be devoted at a later stage.

I had intended dealing with the question of mineral production, but the time will not permit. I would just like to add a few r·emarks in regard to the question of pro­duction, and i!l this case industrial produc­tion .. I am gomg to take the opportunity of readmg extracts from one or two letters whic~, I thiuk, will throw some light on this ~uesbon. One letter I purpose reading from IS one dated 5th February, 1918, which i< .. addressed to me ~rom t\1e general manager of th~ Mount E!lwtt Mmes, a man of vast :xpericnce, a man of great abilitit"'• and JUst the class of m~n you are trying to SL·cure, and I hope will secure for vour iron and steel works. Such men are 'going to be the bulwarks of this State of Queensland. These are the men with brains who are going le> direct production. These are some of the remarks he makf's when writing to me on some of the problems we have to face to-dav. He says- •

" 'l'hcre is a SlY,lall section of men that are out to dc,troy--:'

Please. hon. members opposite, do not get vexed with these remarks. Do noc g~t up with loud interjections and think I am trying to annoy you. I am not doing anything- of the s?rt. I am simply'. trying to give you tho ne».; of the other side, and let us see-­on a consideration of these views-whether we cannot arrive at the happY mediuru. It is not hy the extremes introduced bv the Pmplo~·ers in days gone by any more th!m by the cxtrenY3 you arte introducing to-day that

ou are going to get success. '£he'·e are some of the extracts from his letter. He Sl:LyS-

" There is a :·.mall section of men that a.re rmt to destroy any industrial under­raking and nothing you can say, or figures you can give, will do any good, but the bulk of men are reasonable, still. at present, a number are under the swa0 1918-5 !I

of the small section. but it will not last. I agree with you that it is worth while endeavouring to shm>' them the folly of present methods. l\.Len like yourself can do a lot of good to the State bv pointing out to what extent the slowing down of labour retards a country in the growing of material, &c. As to the price paid for wages, a good rate of pay benefits a country so long as efficiency is obtained, hut a country that pays high r<~tes of wages and obtain, low efficiency must go to the devil."

Those are exnressive word• Thev are not parliamentar.v~ but they convey, in a very few words, what is the position. The letter is a long one, so I will not read the whole of it, but I .would like to read a few more statements he makes. He says-

" No State can exist as a self-contained State unless it pro<iuces to export the material required by oth"r countries, and it is to our wheat, wool, and' minerals, · and other produce we must look to exporting, and to export w&

must work; so as to give freight over our State railways to make same pro­ductive. '£o slow down production--"

Blind our eves to it as much as we ·will, hon. members of this House, no matter on which side the:v sit, know perfectly well this weapon is used.

}fr. KIRWAN: .\re you referring to Vic­toria?

Mr. ELPHIXSTONE: I am not referring to Victoria. The writer continues-

" To slow down production in any section means loss of freight and revenue to the railways, and increased cost to all consumers. Not only in proiluction must slow-down policy 0easo, but in con­struction work also. Take it a brick­lavor, on a fair da;v~'s work can lay, say, 800-1.000 bricks and in place only lays, say, 500. the cost of that is passed on to you and you pay for the slow-down, and the same applies in every walk of life; any man that slows down only passes the cost on to the other fellow. Think it out and you will see how the slow-down policy reacts on every living person in Queensland."

That is what you hon. gentlemen do not seem to understand.

The TREASURER: What letter was that I

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : I stated at the out­set that it w~s a letter addressed to me by the manager of the Mount Eiliott mine, :\1r. Corbould.

The TREAST.:RER : Will you lay it on the table?

:VIr. ELPHI::"JSTONE: I have no object:on at all. Now, I am r·oing to read a letter on a different phase nf the subject of produc­tion, or rather work. in the State of Queen&­land as applied to one of our Stace enter­prises.

Mr. For.EY: Is thiB from Mr. Cor'Jouk1?

Mr. ELPHINSTOKE: Ko, it comes from a working man engaged at B<tbinda, and I am· going to quote a few extracts.

An HoNOURABLE ME:I'IBER: Frr.m the "pub"?

Mr. Elr.Mnstnnt l

1634 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. ELPH[NSTONR:: He is not in the "pub," at least not all day long (Lam;hter.)

T.he TREASC:RER: Will you put it on the table also?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: No, I wtll not, because I am only quoting extr<tcts. I am not reading the letter.

The TREASURER: It might be a "fake."

Mr. J<~LPHINSTONE: I oon assure the Treasurer that it is not a " fake, ' because the particular man has been in my employ, not just recently, not for the la,t foul' years, and I have had occa"ion t.o form a pretty good opinion of the man's honesty. They refer to the improvement, or rather the destruction, of the State hotel by. the unfor· tunate cyclone and the work done to rem~dy it. This is what he says-

" Goodnes,. knows when they will be finishe-d. They are working so fast one cannot see what they are doing. 'fhere are five or six carpenters, three labourers, and one sheet-metal plumber and off· sider, three painters, two forcmc;n on the sa.me job. In fact, the way ti1e Works Department is run is a disgrace to the Labour party of Quecn,;la,nd. The chief idea seems to be to waste the public money by keeping a lot of deadhcvads in good oillets."

Now, these are not palatable remarks. It does not give me any more pleasure to :nake them than it does the Treasurer and his col­leagues to hear them.

The TREASURER: They are n:J~ true.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : But W<' must listen to the truth in these days, because this is the essence of what we complain oi in this question of increasP.d deficits and increase-d expenditure-the same reason why 'noney is not being expended in a diredion. where yoll can get £1 0f value for 20s. expended. He talks aLout thP finishing of the place in a,;>out another nlonth--

" What it will cost by that time will be far more than it should be if run by men w.ho were capable of running a job to a success The way thir:gs are being run is the laughing stock or this place, and usually they are slow enough in their own way, but the:y are better than the crowd here. One day I ·Ytme home a little bit earliet· than nsual from w<,rk, and saw six carpentero in the seC'oud class, a.nd only one was 'vorking, the 1·est were fooling around, and the foreman could not be found, and that is going on all the time. Every holida;r they ail go into Cairns and remam ~'vo or three days."

Mr. FoLEY: He is a scab on his mates.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: He may be a scab, but if a, ma,n tells t.he truth because he believes in the State of Queenslund, bece.use he understands that it is not by that means that the State can progress, tht>n I contend that he is worthy of a more honourable name than that of "'ab. \Vhat hon. mPmbers oppo­site have go~ to learn is that they have 50t am»ngst their ranks-and l ve;iture to say that they are in the majority-men who are honestly desirous of helping t·his State along. who can see far enough to imow that if the precent process procee-ds long enough it moons State bankruptcy. They can see that; they

[Mr. Elphinstone.

v:ant to avoid it. I ask hon. m2rr.bers oppo­site-what pleasure can it be to i·he far·2eeinc·· men in the employ of the Railway DepaA~ ment at the present time to know that they are associated with a cler • .artment that is piling up huge deficits e\ ·"'Y vear, with "' department that is constantlv criticised? Surely, it must be more pleasa.nt to a man to be associatPd with a successft,l enterprise. If he knows it is paying its way he putY n.ore life and vigour into his work. There i" " l·arge section who do not !ike to be associated with a failure, who do not like to hwe their energies curtailed, w'"to like to go straight ahead and work for a rPa ·onabl<' wag·e and give a fair return for it. •r could 'go on talking on this subject, hut I jw.t want to get in a wo!'d on a question which I intra· duC'<>d into this House. the question of gambling.

An HoNOUR.\BLE MEMBER : You introduced it?

Mr. ELPHINSTO::"JE: I think I did intra· duce it. If I did not, I am quite prepared to give the f'redit tD someone else. At any rat<>, I mc.ved a resolution drawing attention to the e'il effects of gambling, and in my l'<'marks I distinctly stated that I was not so much directing my attention to the ques­tion whether it should be allowed in patriotic events or not, but was mainly directing my attention to its being associated with other thall patriotic movements, and I cit"d a number of instances. (Government interjeo· tior.,B.) Wher<:lver Lib<>rty Fair comes up, some method is utilised to close or attmept to close our mouths, but I am going to have my say out on this subject, and let that be understood.

Mr. O'S<:LLIVA}:: What about France's De,y?

l\1r. ELPHINSTONE : It does not matter vvhat interjectione about France's Day or other similar ignorant interjections hon. mem­bers opposite care to offer. I am going to say what I mean, and that is that I introduced this qu"tion of gambling to call attention to the evil effects which it must have on the people of Queensland at the present moment. I di;·ected very few remarks to the question of gambling in patriotic movements. What I mainly directed my attention to was that the Government were cloeing their eyes to the most extreme practices. pernicious evils that thev knew existe·d and were being en­couraged and cultivated to secure money for partv funds, and I gave numerous instances where this had taken place. Hon. members, when questions were asked, professed entire ignorance, whereas all the time they knew it existed, and their funds are securing large increases by those means. They have only to go to the Domain at this very moment and thev will see the evil practically at its grBatc:st · height. They will see sights of which they should be ashamed. And I do not think it is their hearts that speak-it is simply the power over them. They have to shut their eyeB, they have to agree, they have to give permission for this gambling which a Bill was introduced to prevent, be. cause the party needs the augmentation of it; funds which Liberty Fair produces.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Who provides your party funds?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : I am not talking as a party man. I did not raise this as a party issue. I am going to ask-what good

Supply. [21 AuGUST,] Popular Initiative, Eh .. Bilt 1635

could any cause, what good could the fine old La hour cause, which eve1;yone must admire when it is genuine, and when men speak genuinely-what good could it derive from living on funds rai8ed trorn the mcraJ -degradation of the people we arc here to pro­teut? . How did the Premier answer my accusation? By getting up and making some kind of inane remark that at one time I-as a. poor man, I say it advisedly-! hav'l n0 desll'e to pose; as a capitalist, I have to \Vork for every pound I make--

'l'he PRE1I1ER: Where did your party get its funds-screwed out of the people?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Well, if that is the case, I have had nothing to do with the collection of party funds.

The PREMnm : You say " Thank the Lord, I am not as other men are !"

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: No; understand thie;-I did not raise this question as a party i&:,ue. I raised it on private members' day Ill~ priYate members' bu·~iness.

Tlw PRE.~IIER: You said that, but you made it a party question.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: I did not. If a man reads my remarks from a dispassionate point of view, he will see that I called atten­tion to this question in a totally dispassioLate way, that I adduced evidence that was abso­lutely irrefutable--

The PRE1\IIER: You attacked Mr. Black for getting £8 a week, and you were getting £8 a week yourself.

Mr. ELPHlNSTONE: I did not attack Mr Black.

The PRE1!IER : Of course. you did. It is :in "Hansard."

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Read "Hansard." The PREl\IIER : I heard it.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Mr. B~rtram, will yon ask the Premier to give me an oppor­tunity to finish? My time is running out. He ·is using every possible means in his power to prevent my speaking, but I intend having my say. (Interruption.)

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order !

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: I do not know Mr. Black from a bar of soap; I have never seen him or spoken to him. What I said with regard to him was that he was being paid £8 per week to run a society which was collecting funds for returned soldiers, while there were returned soldiers who were looking for employment and who could do that work. I also said that while Mr. Black was being paid that money h•c; was traversing the State organising Liberty Fairs Those are the 1·emarb I ma·de, and T repeat those remarks. Tf a ;nan is paid £8 a week to ;: !tend to Anzac <oottages, h8 shr,tlld do that v•·ork, in~t(ad of devoting hi·! time to .organising Liberty Fairs frow which the Labour party are det·iving funds. I was u·;ticising the principle of employing a man to do w0rk v;hich a returner! soldier could r:o, and conti,,uing to employ him when he was traversing· the country organising Liberty Fairs. ·

'fhe CHATBMAN: Ihe hnn. member has Pxhaustcd tl e time allowed by the Standing Drders.

Mr. JTILI'HINS'I'ONE: Mr. Bertram, I t~ank you for your leniency in extending my t1me, and I am sorry that I have not half an hour longer.

The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN r:•ported progress, and the Committee ob­tained leave to sit again to-morrow.

POPULAR INITIATIVE AND REFEREN. DUM BILL.

MESSAGE FROM COUNCIL, No. 2.

The SPEAKER announcl'll the receipt of the followine- Juessage fro1n the Council:-

·"Mr. Sptaker,-,, The Legislative Council having had

under consideration the ntessage of the Legislative Assembly, of date 30th July, relativ,o tc• the Popular Iuitiative and Referendum Bill, beg nm: to inti]Jla.te that th"'Y-

" Insist on the insertion of new clause 2-because the Parliamentary Bills Re­ferendum Act o£ 1908 giwe the people ample 11owers to cl:c>al wit~ <'onstitutional questions and the new cl>wse does not in any way 1estrict or confine the powers of the people under thie Bill, and is in ha.rmonv with the mosl. l'e.cent decisions of the Privy Council;

" Insist ,;n their amenchnent in clause 4 (now 1'), lines 33 to 35--because it is essentially democratic and in harmony with the •pparent purpos.os of the Bill;

" Insist on their amen<l1:1ent in clause 9 (now 1?), page 5, line J? (now Ill­because 1t would be wise. although accepting ::::uc·h certifir:atc aB valid, to allow opr:ortunity for cc.rrecting any inadvertent mistake;

"Insist on the additwn to clause 9 (now 10)-because it will minimise fraud and malpractices, and because it em­bodies a sound democratic principle;

"Insiot on their amendm<>nt in clause 15 (now :6), bm otTer to substitute the word ' forty' tor the word ' fifty' on line 17, in which substitution they invite the concurrence of the Legislative Assembly;

"Ins=st on their amend··11ent in clause 18 (now 19) for th<\ 1 ea.son given in regard to the amendrr•Pnt in clause 9 (now 10), page 5, line 12 (now 11) ;

" Insist on their amendment in clause 20 (now 21)-becansf' it is consequential on new clause 2;

" Insist on the omissi<·n of clause 25-becau.;e the retention of !.hP ciauBe would mean th:tt this Parlia1r,er.t would bind future Parliaments, which is unwhe and is against the consti.tutional practice throughout the Eupire.; ''JJd

" Do not insist on their other amend­nwnts in 'he Dill tn which the Legisla­tiYe Assembly have disagreed .

,, \V. H-t::\1JLTON,

" President. "Legislative Council Chamber,

"Brisbane, 21st Aur;ust, 1918."

The consideration of the message was ma.de an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at twenty-live minutes past 10 o'clock p.m.

Hon. W. McGormack.]