Kordic and Cerkez-Abdulah Amic-Full Testemony_EN

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CASE No IT-95-14/2-T

PROSECUTOR vs DARIO KORDIĆ AND MARIO ČERKEZ

WITNESS NAME: ABDUA! A!MIĆ

1"-11 #UNE 1999

3529.

(The witness entered)

GE MAY: Let the witness make the solemn declaration.

TE !"T#E$$: " solemnl% declare that " will

s&eak the tr'th the whole tr'th and nothin *'t the tr'th.

353+.

,-GE MAY: Yes. Take a seat.

M/. #"0E: 1eore " start this witnesss

e4idence can " deal with some matters o

administration which " think will sa4e time There are

*'ndles o &ro&osed e6hi*its7 " dont think the% are

likel% to *e contro4ersial. The% are &hotora&hs and

ma&s. 0an the% *e &ro4ided two or the eence three

or the *ench and one or the reistr% "m ne'tral

as to whether the% are distri*'ted to Yo'r ono'rs now

or whether the reistr% holds *'ndles and distri*'tes

them item *% item later. "t ma% *e that the 0o'rt

wo'ld like to ha4e them as *'ndles in ad4ance. 1't in

an% e4ent thats one or the reistr% three or the

*ench and two or the eence.

" tr'st that the 0o'rt has alread% had

&ro4ided to it the s%no&sis or s'mmar% o what it is

orecast that the witness will *e a*le to deal with.

,-GE MAY: #o.

M/. #"0E: " sim&l% dont 'nderstand. That

" think has one to the eence. " sim&l% dont know

how thats ha&&ened *'t " know that m% sta has *een



4er% *'s% on somethin else this mornin. " will

arrane to ha4e that co&ied i " ma% &rett% well

orthwith i Ms. 8erhaa can lea4e the co'rt and 'st

et that dealt with or thank %o' 4er% m'ch.

353;.

!hile thats *ein done can " make the

ollowin s'estion a*o't ma&s. As the 0o'rt will

know rom this or rom other cases there are lots o

aerial shots *'t 'nort'natel% the aerial shots are

re<'entl% not taken rom so'th=north. $ome witnesses

and some o the rest o 's &reer to deal with thins

lookin at them rom so'th=north and " know that this

witness will ind all ma&s easier skewed ro'nd so that

the% reorientate themsel4es north.

!ith that in mind the 0o'rt miht ind it

hel&'l irst sim&l% to remind itsel 'nless it is

alread% so amiliar it doesnt need to *e reminded

with where Ahmici is on this ma& which is a ma& that

&ro*a*l% need not tro'*le the witness *eca'se it is an

area with which he is amiliar.

Ahmici lies so'th and 'st slihtl% west o

>enica. " know some o the 0o'rts ma&s ha4e *een

marked " think in reen hihlihter or in

hihlihter. "ts not terri*l% well marked as it

ha&&ens *'t its well m% iner &oints o't where

it is i thats o an% 'se (indicatin) *'t its

so'th and slihtl% west o >enica. "t lies on the road

*etween 8ite? and 1'so4aca and immediatel% in the

4icinit% other 4illaes that will *e reerred to

incl'de to the west $antici7 'rther west '*ra4ica7

3532.

and " think &ossi*l% 'st slihtl% to the so'th and

east #adioci. 1't in an% e4ent one can see that the



road rom 8ite? r'ns east and slihtl% so'th on its wa%

down towards 1'so4aca.

"t ma% hel& riht at the *einnin i "

deal with the ma&s now thro'h the witness and "

ha&&en to know that one o the ma&s he has %et to

see. "t will " think *e the third ma& in the

collection that the 0o'rt has the A3si?e sheet and

its @rosec'tion E6hi*it >;55; and i that co'ld *e

made a4aila*le to the witness.

,-GE MAY: The witness m'st *e introd'ced

irst.

M/. #"0E: "m so sorr% %es. " m'st ask him

or his name.

TE !"T#E$$: A1-LA AM"0

E6amined *% Mr. #ice:

B!itness answers thro'h inter&reterC

D. 0an %o' &lease tell 's %o'r 'll name

A. M% name is A*d'lah Ahmic.

D. 0'rrentl% li4in in which town or 4illae

A. " li4e in >enica.

D. Thank %o'.

M/. #"0E: Ma% the witness then now &lease

see to hel& 's with the eora&h% E6hi*it >;.55;.

3533.

As " ha4e alread% indicated this is not a ma& that

hes had an o&&ort'nit% to see so ar toda%. 0an "

in4ite the witness who as he has heard me sa%

&reers to deal with ma&s north=so'th to t'rn the

doc'ment on the o4erhead &roector ro'nd so that it

aces north *eca'se "m s're this will hel& 's all.

$o i he wo'ld t'rn it &rett% nearl% '&side down.

D. Mr. Ahmic i %o' co'ld look at the doc'ment

on %o'r rihthand side the 'sher will &oint %o' to

it and i %o' wo'ld like to t'rn it ro'nd so that it



aces north which means t'rnin it ro'nd &rett% well

;+ derees " think can %o' &lease &oint o't irst

o all where Ahmici is on that ma&

A. Ahmici is here (indicatin). This is the

'&&er &art this is the middle &art and this is the

lower &art o the 4illae o Ahmici.

D. !ell come to the location o &artic'lar

ho'ses and other eat'res later *'t 'st to assist the

Tri*'nal with ittin this ma& into an% other ma& or

ma&s take %o'r time *eca'se %o' ha4ent seen it

*eore can %o' tell 's or show 's on the ma& where

$antici is

A. $antici starts here and then %o' o all

ro'nd here. The% co4er a wide area (indicatin).

D. The last &oint to hel& 's with on

353.

orientation will %o' 'st ha4in circled that whole

area o $antici will %o' take the marker &lease to

the middle area. ,'st &oint to the middle o $antici

where %o' were on the main road.

A. This (indicatin).

D. That area there has a road oin o to the

riht and on the ma& we see <'ite a lare area o

white.

M/. #"0E: " think the 0o'rt will ind that

that *lock o roads and eat'res is s'icientl%

reconisa*le that %o'll *e a*le to orientate e4er%

other ma& that we come to.

" tr'st the 0o'rt now does ha4e the s%no&sis

o e4idence and "m a*le to deal with a lare n'm*er

o matters 4er% switl% with this witness *% areement

with the eence.

D. Mr. Ahmic were %o' *orn in ;9F3 in Ahmici

*ecomin a skilled worker in a militar% actor% 'ntil



;99+ when %o' were then 'nem&lo%ed or two %ears

A. Yes that is correct.

D. 1eore the m'lti&art% elections in ;99+

were relations *etween 0roats and M'slims li4in

locall% relati4el% ood

A. The relations were relati4el% ood.

D. ollowin m'lti&art% elections were most o

3535.

the M'slims &art o the $A and the 0roats o the >

A. Yes.

D. !ere %o' a &art% mem*er *'t did %o' resin

*eore the conlict

A. Yes that is correct too.

D. The 8H was esta*lished in A&ril ;992 with

its head<'arters in the otel 8ite?. id the soldiers

o the 8H recei4e trainin in Gr'de and did %o' see

them re<'entl% &assin thro'h the 4illae o Ahmici

A. $ince " li4ed near*% near the road the

1'so4aca=8ite? road " co'ld re<'entl% see the 8H

soldiers &assin *% in 4ehicles.

M/. #"0E: " think itll &ro*a*l% hel& i the

lare ma& is let on the ELMH *eca'se we will ind

o'rsel4es reerrin to it rom time to time. " %o'

co'ld lea4e it there orientated the same wa% " wo'ld

*e 4er% rate'l. Thank %o'.

D. "s it the case that there were no 8H

*arracks either in or close to Ahmici *'t that there

were local 8H soldiers li4in in the 4illae

A. Yes that is correct.

D. 1eore the war was Ahmici di4ided to this

e6tent that there were some areas more &o&'lated *%

M'slims and less *% 0roats than other areas

A. There was a &art the '&&er &art o the

353F.



4illae where the M'slims were the onl% ones li4in

there and then the other &arts o the 4illae o

Ahmici was more mi6ed.

D. And %o'4e alread% &ointed it o't *'t rather

<'ickl% can %o' take the marker and 'st &oint on the

ELMH that &art which was most densel% &o&'lated *%

M'slims Mo4e the &lan i %o' need another *it to

come into oc's or the 'sher will hel& %o' do it.

A. This is the area where M'slims li4ed and

where the% were not mi6ed in with the 0roats

(indicatin).

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) Mr. #ice

co'ld %o' tr% to ind o't rom the witness what was

the &ro&ortion o M'slim &o&'lation which li4ed in that

&artic'lar area o the 4illae " *elie4e it is -&&er

Ahmici were talkin a*o't.

M/. #"0E:

D. 0an %o' hel& the 0o'rt !hat was the

a&&ro6imate &ercentae occ'&ation o -&&er Ahmici *%

M'slims

A. "n -&&er Ahmici there were no 0roats. "t

was onl% M'slims who li4ed there e6cl'si4el%.

@ercentaewise the &o&'lation o Ahmici was the

'&&er &art o the 4illae there was a*o't 2+ &er cent

o the &o&'lation so that most o the &o&'lation o

353I.

Ahmici li4ed in the lower and middle &arts or sections

o the 4illae.

D. As to the other &ercentaes in the 4illae

enerall% can %o' estimate those !as it all 0roats

or were there other ethnic ro'&s as well as 0roats

&resent in the 4illae

A. Hnl% M'slims and 0roats li4ed in the 4illae

*'t 0roats were siniicantl% ewer in n'm*er. The%



were a minorit%. 1't &art o the M'slims who li4ed in

the area o >'me were not &art o the local comm'ne o

Ahmici *'t rather the local comm'ne o $antici. And

there were <'ite a ew M'slims.

D. !e4e alread% seen where $antici is. oes

this ma& ena*le 's to identi% >'me with &artic'larit%

A. Yes %o' can see it. " can show %o' where

the M'slims in >'me li4ed. That wo'ld *e the local

comm'nit% o $antici (indicatin).

D. 8er% well.

A. This is here (indicatin).

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) !hat was the

n'm*er o &eo&le inha*itin Ahmici in eneral

M/. #"0E:

D. 0an %o' hel& ,'de 1enno'na with that

<'estion

A. " think a*o't o'r to i4e h'ndred.

353.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) ow man%

ho'ses were there in the 4illae and how man% M'slims

were there in the 4illae 0o'ld we tr% to ind that

o't rom the witness

M/. #"0E:

D. 0an %o' hel& the ,'de &lease

A. " think that there were a*o't ++ 3+ ma%*e

'& to 5+ M'slims.

M/. #"0E: " orecast *'t "m not a*sol'tel%

certain that were oin to hear detailed e4idence o

anal%sis rom another witness &ossi*l% rom a witness

whose e4idence is alread% &art heard.

(Trial 0ham*er coners)

M/. #"0E:

D. ealin with the com&osition o the 4illae

and with the &resence o armed soldiers in the



4illae " *e %o'r &ardon o soldiers in the

4illae *eore an% &artic'lar &ro*lems %o'4e told 's

that there were no *arracks. !ere there 8H soldiers

li4in in the 4illae

A. Yes there were.

D. And at that time was the Territorial eence

also esta*lished with its head<'arters in the hih

school some kilometres awa% in 8ite?

A. Yes.

3539.

D. "s it the &osition that the Territorial

eence did not ha4e man% wea&ons nor &ro&er 'niorms

at that time and was &rimaril% oranised as a &ossi*le

deence aainst the $er*s

A. Yes.

D. !ere %o' &art o that Territorial eence

and was %o'r *rother the Ahmici commander at least

'ntil ater an attack in Hcto*er 92

A. Yes.

D. And %o'r *rothers irst name was ...

A. is name was M'ris.

D. " want %o' now &lease to deal with e4ents

o and immediatel% ollowin the ;9th o Hcto*er o

;992. Hn that da% did the Territorial eence in

Ahmici erect a *arricade

A. Yes. The Territorial eence erected a

*arricade on the 1'so4aca=8ite? road on the ;9th o

Hcto*er in the earl% e4enin ho'rs.

D. !h%

A. 1eca'se we learned that the 0roatian arm% was

amassin in Jakan and 1'so4aca and the% were to o to

#o4i Tra4nik where a conlict had *roken o't with the

1osniaks. Hn that da% we co'ld e4en hear e6&losions

comin rom the direction o #o4i Tra4nik.



D. $o 'st e6&lain or am&li% %o'r answer. !hat

35+.

was it that led rom knowlede o this conlict that

was ha&&enin as near or as ar as #o4i Tra4nik what

was it a*o't that conlict that led to the decision to

*lock the road !hat were %o' seekin or what was the

Territorial eence seekin to do

A. The conlict *roke o't &ro*a*l% *eca'se o

the intention o 0roats to take o4er a militar%

actor% and o'r intention was to c't o the road and

&re4ent the 8H 'nits to &ass down that road *etween

1'so4aca and 8ite?.

D. 0an %o' &oint o't on the lare ma& on the

o4erhead &roector a&&ro6imatel% where the *lockade

was erected

A. "t was erected here (indicatin). There is a

0atholic cemeter% here in this area (indicatin) and

it was erected here (indicatin).

D. 1eore we lea4e that &art o the ma& where

was the ho'se in which %o' li4ed at that time

A. This wo'ld *e m% ho'se (indicatin).

D. Thank %o'. The other side o the main road

rom the maorit% o the 4illae o Ahmici

A. Yes. " was *elow the road closer to the

Las4a /i4er. That is where " li4ed.

D. 0an %o' remem*er at a&&ro6imatel% what time

the *arricade was irst eecti4el% a *arricade

35;.

A. "t was erected 'st as it was rowin dark.

"t was d'sk.

D. !hen that had *een done where were %o'

where did %o' o

A. " was in the school %ard in the 4illae o



Ahmici when the *arricade had *een erected.

D. @lease &oint o't where the school and school

%ard are or were.

A. " *elie4e that this is it (indicatin).

D. 1eore %o' lea4e that area 'st to hel& the

0o'rt in eneral orientation the mos<'e o Ahmici

where is or was that

A. "t was 4er% close to this school *'ildin

(indicatin). The mos<'e was aro'nd here

(indicatin).

D. The school was that o&eratin as the

head<'arters or the time *ein or the Territorial

eence

A. Yo' co'ld sa% so e4en tho'h we did not ha4e

m'ch e<'i&ment so it didnt make it m'ch o a

head<'arters. 1't it is tr'e that we athered there.

D. id %o' ha4e some comm'nication acilities

there a4aila*le to %o'

A. Yes it was a radio transmitter which we

called a /-@ station a /-@ transmitter.

352.

,-GE MAY: Mr. #ice when %o' come to a

con4enient moment.

M/. #"0E: " was oin to &ro&ose that

moment *eca'se " know the *alance o these two

&arara&hs will take some time to deal with altho'h

what ollows can *e dealt with more switl%.

,-GE MAY: 8er% well. " ho&e its oin to

*e &ractical to inish this witness tomorrow.

M/. #"0E: 0ertainl%. " ha4e e4er% reason to

think thats &ossi*le.

,-GE MAY: !hile " ha4e that in mind

tomorrows ho'rs we shall *e sittin tomorrow at

;+.++ not at 9.5 *'t well o on 'ntil ;.;5 i we



ha4e to to com&lete the witness.

Mr. Ahmic were oin to ado'rn now 'ntil

hal &ast 2.++. 0o'ld %o' &lease *e *ack then.

0o'ld %o' remem*er in this ado'rnment and

an% others there ma% *e not to s&eak to an%*od% a*o't

%o'r e4idence and dont let an%*od% s&eak to %o' a*o't

it and that does incl'de mem*ers o the @rosec'tion.

TE !"T#E$$: Yes " 'nderstand.

,-GE MAY: al &ast 2.++.

L'ncheon recess taken at ;.++ &.m.

3529.

353+.

Hn res'min at 2.35 &.m.

M/. #"0E: 1eore we res'me the e4idence m%

a&oloies to the inter&reters or not ha4in &ro4ided

them with the s'mmar% *eore the short ado'rnment. "t

is now &ro4ided *'t " do a&oloise or that.

Ms. 8erhaa draws to m% attention that "m

makin a nonsense o the record *% not ha4in the

aerial ma& marked. M% intention is to ha4e the witness

deal with a ma& o a dierent scale when we come to

matters o detail *'t its <'ite riht that this ma&

o'ht to *e marked and " think &erha&s with a*o't

three or o'r markins.

D. $o i " co'ld 'st ask the witness &lease

to take " think the orane &en will ser4e to %o'r

riht and i %o' co'ld 4er% kindl% 'st write on the

ma& thats on the ELMH a ca&ital KAK or where %o'r

ho'se is ca&ital ; &'t 'st K;K or where %o'r

ho'se is. Yo' can make it a *i *old i're i %o'

want to. "t wo'ld *e easier.

A. (!itness com&lies)

D. And then a K2K or where the school and the



mos<'e are ro'hl% to *e o'nd.


D. K3K or Lower Ahmici.


353;.

D. And then KK or $antici.


M/. #"0E: " that co'ld *e &'t on the ELMH

&lease. !ell its thank %o'. !e cant see those

i'res and " imaine that this ma& will thereore

ha4e to *e ormall% marked as ;.55; stroke ; is

it $omethin to that eect. Thank %o'.

D. "m &ickin '& at the narrati4e at

&arara&h F. Yo' were at the head<'arters s'ch as it

was at the school in Ahmici. id inormation come to

%o' a*o't o'r 8H militar% &olicemen ,'st KYesK

or K#o.K

A. Yes.

D. !hat was the inormation or intellience

a*o't those o'r &olicemen

M/. $TE"#: H*ection 'nless theres a

&ro&er o'ndation laid.

M/. #"0E: Let me deal with it in this wa%.

"ll come *ack to all the material that was narrated in

d'e co'rse *'t lets deal with the mechanism irst.

D. ,'st KYesK or K#oK: "ntellience came to %o'

a*o't o'r soldiers

A. Yes.

D. rom whom did %o' &ersonall% hear that

intellience

3532.

A. " heard it rom ellows who were in the

(rench translation c't in)



M/. $TE"#: E6c'se me. !ere lost. !e 'st

ot rench on o'r headsets.

,-GE MAY: " know. The rench

inter&retation is comin thro'h with the Enlish.

Lets tr% aain.

M/. #"0E:

D. rom whom did %o' &ersonall% hear that

intellience

A. " heard it rom those '%s who were in the

school%ard in the %ard o the school in which " was.

D. rom where had those '%s learnt what the%

told %o'

A. $ome*od% had *ro'ht the news some*od% who

had *een at the *arricade came to the school%ard and

that is how the stor% s&read that o'r soldiers were

disarmed at the *arricade and t'rned *ack to 8ite?.

D. ont i4e me the contents o what %o' were

told or the time *ein7 " 'st want the method *%

which it reached %o'.

$o some*od% rom the *arricade had come to

the school%ard. As %o' 'nderstood it had the e4ent

concernin the o'r &olicemen ha&&ened at the

*arricade

3533.

A. Yes.

M/. #"0E: "n these circ'mstances this is

inormation we4e seen it eora&hicall% witho't

ha4in %et had the *arricade marked on the &lan *'t

its inormation comin rom the *arricades on the

road *ack '& to the school ho'se comm'nicated to the

&eo&le at the school ho'se and to this man. This is

all &art o the *ackro'nd to this e4ent. This

&artic'lar &art o inormation relates onl% at this

stae to what ha&&ened to the soldiers *eore



Mr. $tein who has more &artic'lar concern rises

*eca'se &arara&h F altho'h incl'si4e is not as

&recise as it miht *e and this &iece o intellience

relates to what ha&&ened to the soldiers onl%. "ll

deal with an%thin that ha&&ened thereater later.

,-GE MAY: "m sorr%. !hat %o're askin

or is the e4idence relatin sim&l% to the soldiers

not what it was re&orted as *ein said a*o't the

acc'sed

M/. #"0E: 0orrect. !ell what was said *%

wa% o a threat or warnin later is a se&arate incident

which "ll deal with se&aratel%. This is 'st what

ha&&ened to the soldiers.

,-GE MAY: !ell Mr. $tein is there an%

o*ection to that the car *ein sto&&ed re&ort o

353.

M/. $TE"#: #o sir.

M/. #"0E: or saet% " think "ll deal with

it i " ma% in a leadin ormat *eca'se that will

&ro*a*l% a4oid an% risks.

D. "s it riht Mr. Ahmic that %o' were

inormed that a car with o'r 8H militar% &olicemen

had *een sto&&ed at the *arricade

A. Yes.

D. "s it riht that %o'r 'nderstandin was that

those soldiers were disarmed

A. Yes.

D. And that o'r wea&ons riles were

coniscated

A. Yes.

D. And that the soldiers had to ret'rn rom the

*arricades *ack where the% had come rom

A. Yes.

D. And rom which direction had the% a&&arentl%



come

A. As ar as " know rom the direction o

8ite?.

D. #ow " want %o' to answer the ne6t <'estions

'st KYesK or K#o.K o %o' 'nderstand me

A. " do %es.

D. At some stae was a warnin or threat

3535.

recei4ed ,'st KYesK or K#o.K

A. !e did

D. ,'st KYesK or K#o.K

A. Yes.

D. !as it one warnin or threat or more than

one o which %o' were aware

A. As ar as " know there was onl% one threat.

D. As ar as %o' 'nderstood it did the threat

come at the same time as the &erson *ro'ht inormation

a*o't the militar% &olicemen *ein sent *ack or did it

come at a dierent time

A. "t came later.

D. " now want to ask %o' " want %o' to deal

onl% with %o'r 'nderstandin o the mechanism the

ro'te *% which the warnin or threat came and " want

%o' to sa% nothin a*o't the content o it. o %o'

'nderstand

A. Yes.

D. ow m'ch later did the threat or warnin

come

A. o'r ho'rs later " think.

D. rom whom did %o' hear it

A. " heard a*o't the threat also rom those

ellows who were in the %ard in which " was at the

time.

353F.



D. As %o' 'nderstood it and aain dont sa%

an%thin a*o't an% names or an%thin o that sort or

an%thin a*o't the content o the threat *'t as %o'

'nderstood it how had the% learned o this warnin or

threat

A. The% had recei4ed the inormation rom o'r

men who were in the direction o >'me and those men o

o'rs who were in a wa% de&lo%ed towards >'me and a

co'rier came rom the 0roat side and transmitted the

threat. $ome*od% needless to sa% then transmitted

the messae to the sta and that is how it s&read.

D. That was o'r ho'rs ater the incident

in4ol4in the militar% &olicemen. A&&ro6imatel% what

time o the da% e4enin or niht was this

A. E4enin ho'rs.

D. id an attack come s'*se<'entl%

A. #o. Yes in the mornin.

D. $o how m'ch ater the threat did the attack

come

A. Aro'nd 9.++ 9.++ or ;+.++.

D. ow man% men were 'ardin or stationed at

Ahmici at a*o't the time o the *lockade *ein set '&

and the warnin or threat *ein recei4ed

A. @erha&s aro'nd 2++. #ot more than 2++.

D. $o rom what %o'4e told 's earlier a*o't the

353I.

&o&'lation o Ahmici itsel does this in4ol4e men

comin rom areas wider than Ahmici itsel

A. Yes. A*o't hal o the men came rom o'tside

to hel& and hal o them came rom o'r &lace.

D. To what deree were these men armed at this

time

A. The% were 4er% &oorl% armed. " dont think

that hal o them had an% wea&on at all.



D. ow widel% to %o'r knowlede how widel%

dis&ersed aro'nd 0entral Ahmici were these men -se

the ma& thats still on the ELMH i that wo'ld hel&.

A. The% were de&lo%ed like this (indicatin).

ere was the school (indicatin) and then some men

were here (indicatin) and then the% were de&lo%ed

like this (indicatin). The *arricade was here

(indicatin) and some were de&lo%ed a*o4e the 4illae

that is aro'nd Gorne and the% were at dierent

&oints.

D. Yo' &ointed to the *arricade *'t it ma% *e

that " mis'nderstood the &ointin. 0o'ld %o' &lease

take the orane &en and " think were '& to n'm*er 5

and co'ld %o' mark in a *i *old i're where the

*arricade was ro'hl% !rite it as a K5.K !rite the

i're K5K &lease 'st as *i and *old as %o' like

*eca'se we4e all ot other co&ies o the &lan.

353.


D. Thank %o'. To the north %o' told 's a*o't

men *ein in the direction o >'me who as %o'

'nderstood it recei4ed the warnin rom the

messener. ow ar ro'hl% were those men

A. The co'rier came directl% to those men o

o'rs.

D. 0an %o' &oint on the &lan where those men as

%o' 'nderstood it were

A. $omewhere here (indicatin) here or here or

there (indicatin). "m not <'ite certain m%sel *'t

that is ro'hl% where the% were.

D. Are %o' sa%in then as %o' 'nderstood it

the co'rier came o the main road and '& the street to

the area o the school and the mos<'e

A. #o no. The co'rier came rom this



direction. This is the road he took.

D. !ell then can %o' mark that &lease or &art

o that road with a *i stron KFK on the &lan


D. The ollowin mornin then an attack

occ'rred. !hat damae was done to *'ildins

A. ire was &'t to them to three or o'r

ho'ses. The% did it mostl% with incendiaries and some

;+ to ;5 ho'ses were damaed and a*o't ten sta*les

3539.

were also set on ire.

D. The incendiar% de4ices that set ire to those

*'ildins were %o' a*le to tell rom which direction

the% came

A. The attack mostl% came rom these directions

like that (indicatin) like this more or less and

rom here (indicatin). rom this direction in the

direction o the *arricade that is where their attacks

came rom rom here and rom there and like this

(indicatin).

M/. #"0E: The witness has marked in 4er%

eneral terms attacks comin rom *oth the east and

the west towards the *arricade.

A. Yes.

M/. #"0E:

D. id somethin ha&&en to the mos<'e in the

co'rse o this attack

A. Yes it did. "t was hit its minaret was

hit *% a shell rom a recoilless 'n.

D. !as it &ossi*le to sa% rom which direction

that shell had come

A. " saw it *ein hit. rom the direction o

>'me is where the &roectile came.

D. B"ndiscerni*leC indicates ro'hl% the i'res



KIK and KFK on the ma& as marked. At that stae

35+.

altho'h damaed did the minaret remain standin

A. Yes. "t was the to& that had *een hit onl%.

D. !as an%one killed in the co'rse o this

attack

A. Amonst 's alid @e?er was killed.

D. e was how old

A. iteen or si6teen %ears o ae.

D. id %o' &ersonall% see an%thin o his *ein

shot

A. #o " didnt.

D. !here was he when he was shot as %o'

'nderstood it

A. e was near the *arricade *'t not at the

*arricade itsel.

D. At this stae how man% armed Territorial

eence &eo&le were there deendin the 4illae

a&&ro6imatel%

A. " *elie4e there were a*o't F+ armed men.

D. Their riles or other arms ha4in come rom

where

A. $ome o the riles had *een *ro'ht *% those

'%s who came to hel& and we had some too.

D. ow lon did the attack last

A. "t lasted rom a*o't F.++ in the mornin

'ntil 2.++ in the aternoon. That is one co'ld hear

35;.

shots *ein ired 'ntil 2.++ in the aternoon.

D. !ere %o' there %o'rsel in Ahmici or all o

that time or had %o' mo4ed *eore F.++ in the

aternoon

A. " was there in the mornin and d'rin the



attack there *% the school then " went o't. 1't " was

mostl% in4ol4ed with the e4ac'ation o ci4ilians. "

was tr%in to hel& the ci4ilian &o&'lation as m'ch as "

co'ld so that " irst hel&ed them to &'ll o't to

Gorni Ahmici and when the '&&er &art o the 4illae

came 'nder shell ire then " hel&ed them to &'ll o't

towards the 4illae o 8rho4ina which is to the north

o the 4illae o Ahmici.

D. Are either o these &laces shown on the ma&

that we ha4e here Gorni Ahmici irst

A. ("ndicatin)

D. /iht o to the riht. " %o' co'ld mark

that &lease aain with a ood stron KI.K


D. Thank %o'. The other 4illae to which %o'

e4ac'ated or assisted in the e4ac'ation o ci4ilians

was where

A. "t was to the north north o this 4illae

'& there.

D. The name o this 4illae

352.

A. 8rho4ina.

M/. #"0E: That is act'all% not shown on this

&lan *'t the 0o'rt can see it on the colo'red ma&.

"ts 'st to the north.

D. " want to now &lease ret'rn to the warnin

or threat that had *een recei4ed and " want %o'

&lease to deal with these <'estions <'ite care'll%.

irst sa%in nothin o an% named

indi4id'al can %o' tell 's what was the nat're o the

threat or the warnin that %o' recei4ed

M/. $TE"#: !ith res&ect " think were

ettin so danero'sl% close that we wont *e a*le to

e6tricate o'rsel4es.



,-GE MAY: Yes. !hat is the o*ection

M/. $TE"#: As " 'nderstand the testimon%

thats come in there has *een some indi4id'al or

indi4id'als noted as co'riers who at a certain time

%et on the record went to some ellows who were in the

>'me area and a4e them some sort o statement or

warnin or threat. The% in t'rn talked to ellows in

another location in the school%ard near the *lockade

and those &ersons in t'rn told this indi4id'al.

Thats o'r la%ers. As to what was said how it was

said who said it the s&eciics its o'r la%ers o

one messae e4en i it is a messae the clarit% o

353.

which is in do'*t the s&eciications o which are in

do'*t and the a'thor o which is in do'*t.

,-GE MAY: 1't it does ha4e this indicia i

%o' like it does ha4e this characteristic that what

he said is re&eated m'st ha4e *een re&eated airl%

<'ickl% e4en i rom mo'th to mo'th and within a

relati4el% short area and it does ha4e does it not a

deree o s&ontaneit% a*o't it or there wo'ldnt ha4e

*een the o&&ort'nit% to man'act're e4en i theres

the o&&ort'nit% o co'rse o somethin *ein

misre&orted

M/. $TE"#: Yes and the s&ontaneit% in this

&artic'lar instance &ro*a*l% oes the other wa% aro'nd

in that this was a conrontation conrontational

sit'ation *arricades armed men. "t was a war i %o'

will and conse<'entl% the iss'e o the kind o

s&ontaneo's declaration that wo'ld o and thereore

mean a tr'th'l statement it seems to me oes the

other wa% *eca'se &eo&le were on ede h%&er

concerned h%&er4iilant &erha&s m'ch was ettin

distorted and so while " 'nderstand Yo'r ono'rs



tho'ht " think it act'all% t'rns the other wa% in

this &artic'lar circ'mstance and neates the

relia*ilit% as o&&osed to enhances it.

,-GE MAY: !ell consider this.

35.

M/. #"0E: 0an " add two &oints with lea4e

$im&l% one that o co'rse the content o the

threat that is the nat're o the threat oret an%

name that is mentioned was *orne o't *% e4ents i4in

some o*ecti4e relia*ilit% to the makin o the threat

and its connection.

As to the <'estion o an% alleed maker

oriinal maker o the threat " dont necessaril% want

this material in or that reason at this stae or

there is a dierence *etween threats *ein made or

warnins *ein i4en in the name o a &erson and the

act that those warnins are i4en in that &ersons

name necessaril% comin rom him or her.

At this stae *earin in mind the state o

the e4idence as it &resentl% is what " want is the

nat're o the warnin and in whose name it was i4en.

0onnections *etween the name identiied and the real

so'rce o the warnin ma% *e deri4ed rom other

material *'t "m not necessaril% s'estin that in

itsel it oes riht the wa% *ack to the so'rce. 1't

there is e4er% reason to *elie4e that the warnin as

deli4ered is aith'll% re&rod'ced.

To take a homel% e6am&le. "ts the KYo'r

ather will &'nish %o' when %o' come home i %o'

ha4ent done %o'r homeworkK that sort o thin.

355.

Threats can *e made in the names o others or all

sorts o reasons.



At this stae " wish the e4idence to *e

i4en in 'll *eca'se there is e4er% reason to *elie4e

its relia*le as reco'nted.

,-GE /H1"#$H#: "s it then the act o the

threat as distinct rom the tr'th'lness o it

M/. #"0E: #o. The threat co'ld *e tr'th'l

*'t the 'll rane o the threat it wo'ld *e askin

" think on its own <'ite a lot o this material to

trace riht the wa% *ack to the oriinator. Hne can

well imaine circ'mstances in which &eo&le sa% K" am

makin this threat in the name o so and soK and that

the% make that threat is entirel% relia*le. The% wo'ld

make it or e6am&le *eca'se that is indeed the *oss

that is the &erson who miht oriinate s'ch a threat

whether he did or did not on this occasion *ein a

matter or other e4idence.

$o what we want at the moment is this

e4idence in or the act that it was said. "ts 4al'e

as with all hearsa% will *e or later assessment when

an% other e4idence is a4aila*le *'t that it was said

is what " want at the moment.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) ,'st a

<'estion to Mr. #ice. Mr. #ice i " 'nderstood %o'

35F.

well it is not the irst time that we are hearin

a*o't this *arricade which was *'ilt on the road

leadin rom 8ite? to 1'so4aca and crossin Ahmici. "

think that this 0ham*er has alread% listened to a

witness who has told 's a*o't this *arricade and a

&ossi*le threat made *% one o the acc'sed. 0an %o'

conirm what "m sa%in or am " wron in an% wa%

M/. #"0E: " think Yo'r ono'r is riht. "

reret " dont ha4e cha&ter and 4erse *'t " think we

can certainl% ind it or %o'.



M/. $TE"#: " " ma% thank %o' ,'de

the act that there was 'ltimatel% an attack does not

corro*orate the eicac% o the threat or what was

said. The% co'ld *e two distinct and indeed are two

distinct e4ents. The act that somethin ha&&ened

ater the threat was made ma% *e 'st &'re

ha&&enstance *'t the thin that is so insidio's so

concernin to 's is that Mr. #ice is essentiall%

sa%in he wants the statement in to show that it miht

ha4e *een made in the name o e4en tho'h the &erson

whose name it was made in the name o ma% ne4er ha4e

said it. And the act that there are o'r distances

remo4ed we will ne4er *e a*le to conront the

indi4id'al who claims that in the name o Mr. Jordic

or an%one else s'ch a thin was said *eca'se we dont

35I.

know who that indi4id'al was and no one in this

co'rtroom e4er will.

$o not onl% do %o' ha4e it in his name and

what was said is in do'*t and whether he e4er said it

when %o' weih all that the &re'dicial eect clearl%

o'tweihs the &ro*ati4e 4al'e.

M/. JH8A0"0: ("nter&retation) Yo'r ono'r "

ma% *e a*le to assist. "ts not so m'ch a leal

ar'ment as a <'estion o the c'lt're in 1osnia.

1osnia is well known or creatin stories and leends.

The writer "4o Andric was awarded a #o*el &ri?e and

he was an e6cellent stor%teller. " think it is an

element we sho'ld *ear in mind. $tories are created

4er% <'ickl% in 1osnia. Thank %o'.

(Trial 0ham*er deli*erates)

,-GE MAY: !e4e considered this

a&&lication7 we shall admit the e4idence. !e think it

carries with it its own characteristics which "4e



reerred to o closeness in time and &lace so that it

is &otentiall% and " sa% K&otentiall%K relia*le

des&ite the act that it is re&orted thro'h a n'm*er

o mo'ths. !e *ear in mind too what is said a*o't the

im&ortance o the threat as relied on as o&&osed to an%

alleation o who 'ltimatel% made the threat.

All these are matters which will ha4e to *e

35.

considered when we look at all the e4idence toether

*'t or the moment were satisied that it has

&ro*ati4e 4al'e and as s'ch sho'ld *e admitted.

M/. #"0E:

D. Mr. Ahmic what was the nat're o the threat

or warnin made as %o' 'nderstand it

A. "t was said K/emo4e the *arricade or %o'

will *e *'rnt %o'r ho'ses will *e *'rnt and %o' will

*e killed.K

D. !as it said rom whom that messae had come

A. !e were told that this was a messae rom

ario Jordic and this threat was intended to *e

re&orted to m% *rother M'ris the commander and not

to the &eo&le in eneral. "t was we were told to

carr% this messae to o'r leader.

D. At that stae Hcto*er ;992 had %o' met

ario Jordic %o'rsel

A. " did not know ario Jordic 'ntil he *ean to

a&&ear in the media and " remem*er that in ;99; in

8ite? when the cens's *ean " think *% the wa% he

looks that it was him it was a &re&aration or the

cens's which took &lace in all o Y'osla4ia.

D. And was it to do with the cens's that %o' met

him or had somethin to do with him

A. " didnt meet him *'t " noticed him and

359.



later when he a&&eared in the media.

D. The e4ac'ation o the &o&'lation o Ahmici

ollowin this attack was that also associated with

remo4al o the *arricade

A. The e4ac'ation o the &o&'lation was carried

o't s&ontaneo'sl%. The e4ac'ation *ean *eore the

check&oint was remo4ed.

D. !as the check&oint remo4ed 4ol'ntaril% or *%

orce

A. 1% orce. The &eo&le mannin the check&oint

ran o't o amm'nition and the% had to withdraw.

D. ad an% other 4illae or comm'nit% in the

area o 8ite? or 1'so4aca shown the le4el o resistance

to the 8H that Ahmici showed on this occasion in

Hcto*er 92

A. "t was the irst conlict as ar as "

remem*er *etween the 8H and the Territorial eence

at least in o'r reion.

D. Thank %o'. 1etween then and A&ril o ;993

was there an% other local acti4e conlict or resistance

o this scale &'ttin '& a road*lock on the main road

A. Later there were conlicts on the territor%

o 1'so4aca m'nici&alit% *'t the conlict irst *ean

in #o4i Tra4nik and the 4er% ne6t da% Ahmici was

attacked. Aterwards rom ;992 and earl% ;993 there

355+.

were clashes on the territor% o the 1'so4aca

m'nici&alit%.

D. Then "ll t'rn to those and "ll &ick '& the

stor% <'ite switl% now in the s'mmar% at &ae 3.

ollowin the Hcto*er attack were there

neotiations *etween the 8H and the Territorial

eence

A. Yes there were neotiations.



D. id the 8H demand the s'rrender o the

Territorial eence and all their wea&ons

A. Yes. The% demanded that all wea&ons sho'ld

*e s'rrendered and the% coniscated a ood &art o the

wea&ons.

D. 1't *% wa% o handin o4er wea&ons were the

o'r riles that had *een taken rom the militar%

&olice handed o4er

A. Yes.

D. !ere there limitations thereater on the

&laces where the Territorial eence co'ld &atrol

A. Yes. !e were no loner allowed to &atrol

e6ce&t in the '&&er &art o the 4illae which the 8H

had not entered. !e co'ld &atrol there normall% *'t

not in the lower &art o the 4illae.

D. ollowin the Hcto*er attack did %o' *ecome

aware o the 8H armin themsel4es

355;.

A. Yes.

D. id %o' *ecome aware o 'nits rom &laces

s'ch as er?eo4ina Jrese4o and Jiselak comin into

%o'r reion

A. Yes.

D. !ere there increasin n'm*ers o 8H soldiers

in Ahmici itsel

A. Yes we co'ld notice it.

D. !ere the% 'st sta%in in ho'ses or did %o'

ha4e reason to *elie4e that the% were sta%in

elsewhere

A. A 'nit arri4ed in the resta'rant K1'nalowK

which is in the immediate 4icinit% o Ahmici and the%

set '& a militar% cam& or *arracks there. !e also

noticed that es&eciall% at niht certain &eo&le

'nknown to 's wo'ld arri4e in Ahmici and &atrol there



toether with the local 0roats rom Ahmici.

D. 0an %o' &lease on the ma& i its &ossi*le

show 's where the 1'nalow was

A. ere (indicatin).

D. @erha&s %o' co'ld mark that &lease with a

lare i're K.K


D. A&art rom &eo&le at and rom the 1'nalow

did %o' *ecome aware o &eo&le who %o' tho'ht miht *e

3552.

sta%in in a wood

A. Yes we concl'ded that there were soldiers in

the wood as well in the immediate 4icinit% o m%

ho'se.

D. $o we4e seen %o'4e marked %o'r ho'se as

n'm*er ;7 its not 4er% clear *'t we can ind it.

Theres to the so'th o %o'r ho'se on the ma& a

rectan'lar *lock. "s that the wood %o're reerrin

to ,'st &oint it o't &lease.

A. This is the wood (indicatin).

D. Thank %o'. And how did %o' work o't that

there ma% ha4e *een &eo&le there

A. !ell we noticed that in the mornin &eo&le

wo'ld take coee and *reakast into the wood. "t was

mostl% the 0roatian women who did this. The% went to

the wood oten carr%in coee and *reakast and

l'nch so that it was eas% to esta*lish that the% were

takin this to someone.

D. !as there a *'ild'& in the n'm*er o militar%

4ehicles and tr'cks that %o' saw

A. Yes mostl% alon this road the

1'so4aca=8ite? road rom ;992 to ;993 it was mostl%

8H militar% 4ehicles that 'sed this road *eca'se the

comm'nications to >enica were c't o near the 4illae



o Las4a so that there was no ci4ilian traic. "t

3553.

was 4er% scarce. $o it was mostl% militar% 4ehicles

which 'sed this road.

D. #e4ertheless was the &osition a*o't there

*ein *arracks in Ahmici or the A1i the same namel%

that there were no s'ch *arracks

A. As ar as " know on the territor% o the

8ite? m'nici&alit% there were onl% three &laces where

the Territorial eence had oranised accommodation or

soldiers: "n @reocica Jr'scica in @reocica and

Jr'scica and in 8ite? the% onl% had a head<'arters.

M/. #"0E: !e neednt tro'*le the witness

with the colo'red ma& *'t @reocica is &rett% well

immediatel% to the north o Ahmici and Jr'scica is

immediatel% so'th o 8ite? well &erha&s towards

north and a little to the west. " dont know i the

0o'rts manaed to ind them %et.

D. id tension *etween 0roats and M'slims

increase *etween Hcto*er 92 and A&ril 93

A. Yes.

D. !ere there as %o'4e e6&lained incidents in

4ario's locations *etween the &arties

A. Yes there were incidents in the 4illae o

Ahmici and es&eciall% in 8ite?. "n 8ite? the

sit'ation was incredi*le. " remem*er once " s&ent the

niht in 8ite? and there was a lot o noise *reakin

355.

o lass 'nire and " saw that the sit'ation was

terri*le at that time es&eciall% in 8ite?. The% wo'ld

smash '& sho&s owned *% 1osniaks. As reards the

4illae o Ahmici the% wo'ld oten ire at ho'ses

the% wo'ld *low '& cars we wo'ld hear e6&losions which



we co'ld not e6&lain *'t which dist'r*ed 's and so

on.

D. id the 8H ha4e check&oints o4er the main

roads

A. Yes the 8H had man% man% 4ario's

check&oints whether on the main road or at the

entrances to their 4illaes. The% had an incredi*le

n'm*er o check&oints where the% &l'ndered looted

&ro&ert% and &re4ented the &assae o &eo&le mostl%

1osniaks.

D. id the A1i ha4e some check&oints at

entrances to 4illaes which were &rinci&all% occ'&ied

*% 1osnians 1osniaks

A. As ar as " can remem*er i there were an%

there were 4er% ew *eca'se we didnt ha4e eno'h

&eo&le to man these check&oints *eca'se o'r

D. Thats all riht. "m sorr% to c't %o'

short Mr. Ahmic *'t some o these matters ha4e *een

heard o *% the 0o'rt *eore and we dont ha4e to o

into e4er%thin in detail.

3555.

0omin to the ;Fth o A&ril did %o' notice

somethin a ew da%s *eore the ;Fth o A&ril a chane

in the area

A. " ha4e alread% descri*ed the sit'ation rom

;992 Hcto*er ;992. o'r da%s *eore the attack the

sit'ation had *ecome incredi*l% <'iet and this seemed

4er% odd to me. "t was a camo'lae. "t was a

concealment *% the 8H. At least thats how it seemed

to me.

D. !as that a commonl% held 4iew or were there

others who rearded the &eriod o <'iet o&timisticall%

A. Yes most &eo&le 4iewed this o&timisticall%

so that this reall% decei4ed 's <'ite a lot.



D. Hn the mornin o the ;Fth o A&ril itsel

at a*o't 5.3+ in the mornin were %o' awoken *% the

so'nd o artiller% ire

A. Yes.

D. id %o' ass'me an 8H attack

A. Yes.

D. !ere %o' a*le to 'de rom which areas

a&&ro6imatel% the attack was comin

A. " ass'med and most &ro*a*l% the attack came

rom three directions: rom the east the so'th and

the west. That is #adioci /o4na and $antici.

D. id %o' see soldiers in the area o %o'r

355F.

neih*o'rs ho'se

A. Yes " noticed soldiers 4er% soon.

M/. #"0E: 0an the witness now ha4e laid on

to& o this lare ma& to which he ma% ret'rn the &lan

>;.52I and the 0ham*er ha4in *ecome amiliar with

the larer ma& will aain ind it eas% to ha4e this

ma& '&side down. "t makes it a little incon4enient or

the witness *eca'se its a &remarked ma& and the

i'res will *e '&side down *'t "m s're on *alance

its *etter to deal with it this wa% *eca'se the ma&

will now alread% *e amiliar as to some o its

eat'res.

D. This ma& shows in a larer scale the road

on the o&&osite side o the main road leadin down to

%o'r ho'se which is marked as n'm*er ;7 is that

correct

A. Yes.

D. The neih*o'rs ho'se o which %o' s&eak is

that n'm*er 2 Hr is that some other dwellin

A. The neih*o'rs ho'se is marked with K2K and

its ar'din Ahmics ho'se.



D. The soldiers that %o' saw there did %o'

reconise an% one o them *% so'nd or siht

A. " reconised two '%s rom #adioci *% siht.

" think the name o one o them is elic. e was

355I.

rather was stronl% *'ilt and middleaed and the

other one was also middleaed and had a lon neck.

The% were torchin a ho'se and aro'nd there were

another o'r or i4e soldiers. The% had a canister

illed with asoline.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) Mr. #ice

%o' asked the witness whether he was a*le to reconise

soldiers7 is that so

M/. #"0E: Yes.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) !hich

soldiers are %o' talkin a*o't

M/. #"0E:

D. Mr. Ahmic the &eo&le who were at the

ne6tdoor ho'se were the% soldiers or were the%

ci4ilians ow were the% dressed

A. The% were wearin militar% 'niorms. The%

were soldiers who had attacked these ho'ses. Most

&ro*a*l% the% were 8H soldiers.

D. is ono'r drew to o'r attention that " had

ailed to sort that detail o't in ad4ance. As to these

soldiers or these &eo&le dressed in militar% 'niorm

were %o' a*le to see an% distin'ishin &atches at that

stae

A. #o " did not and " wasnt &a%in attention

to their insinia at the time.

355.

D. The man elic did %o' know him as a mem*er

o an% militar% ro'& or not



A. Yes " think he was a mem*er at least "

saw him amon the reser4e &olice mem*ers *eore the

war.

D. A&art rom the other man %o'4e descri*ed or

another man %o'4e descri*ed did %o' hear an%thin

said *% an%one at a*o't this time in the mornin

A. Yes " heard a 4oice and " ass'med that

it was similar to "4o @a&ics 4oice.

D. "4o @a&ic *ein a resident o which

comm'nit%

A. !e were neih*o'rs. e was 4er% close to m%

ho'se.

D. 0an %o' show on the ma& how near he li4ed to

%o'r ho'se

A. "4o @a&ics ho'se was here (indicatin).

D. "ndicates the *ottom centre o the &lan the

&lan *ein '&side down.

!hat did %o' hear him sa%

A. e said Kaster aster to this ho'se.K e

was reerrin to the ho'se where " was. e said KMo4e

o rom there. Yo' wont ind an%thin there.K This

is what " heard. "n other words he was callin

soldiers rom ahr'din Ahmics ho'se which is marked

3559.

with K2.K

D. And directin them to whose ho'se

A. That the% sho'ld o to m% ho'se marked with

the n'm*er K;.K

D. Yo'r *rother had had a role in relation to

the Territorial eence locall%7 did he still hold that

&osition or had he *% now resined it

A. M% *rother immediatel% resined that is

immediatel% ater the irst attack on the 4illae o

Ahmici.



D. id the soldiers come to %o'r ho'se and did

%o' hear an e6&losion and then two shots

A. Yes.

D. -ntil that time had %o'r *rother *een

downstairs in the *asement with %o' on the ro'nd

loor %o' comm'nicatin with him *% sho'tin *etween

loors

A. Yes we comm'nicated amon o'rsel4es. !e

sho'ted o't to each other and we said to each other

K!e cant o an%where. H'r ho'ses are s'rro'nded.K

And shortl% thereater there was an e6&losion *oom a

lo'd e6&losion ollowed *% two smallarms wea&ons

shots rom two smallarms wea&ons.

D. id 8H soldiers then demand entr% *% *anin

at the door and did %o' and %o'r ather o o'tside to

35F+.

*e aced *% two hea4il% armed soldiers

A. The% irst shot at the door with *'rsts o

ire and then the% called 's o't and m% ather and "

then o&ened the door.

D. !hen %o' saw the soldiers did the% ha4e

&ainted aces *'llet&roo 4ests with liht *l'e

ri**ons on their slee4es

A. Yes.

D. 0o'ld %o' tell o what militar% ro'& the%

were mem*ers

A. The% did not ha4e an% militar% insinia.

The% were onl% dressed in camo'lae 'niorms.

D. id the% ask or wea&ons and did %o' hand

o4er a hand renade *ein the onl% wea&on that %o'

had

A. Yes.

D. id one o them ask %o' whether %o' knew what

%o'r &eo&le had done in the 4illaes o 'sina and



#e?ero4ici

A. Yes.

D. id %o' ask them what had ha&&ened

A. Yes " asked what was the meanin o that. "

asked one o the two and then he said 'st what %o'

now <'oted. That is what he said.

D. id these two soldiers %o' were acin a&&ear

35F;.

to know each other well or not or cant %o' sa%

A. M% im&ression was that the% did not know each

other 4er% well *'t "m not s're.

D. id the older soldier re&eatedl% tell the

%o'ner to carr% o't an order

A. Yes.

D. id the %o'ner man re'se *ein told *% the

elder that he wo'ld &a% or his diso*edience later

A. Yes.

D. !as the %o'ner man sent to 'ard %o'r mother

and sisters who were in the %ard

A. Yes.

D. !as %o'r ather then ordered *% the older man

to mo4e in the direction %o' sa% " think the

direction o /o4na *'t lookin at the &lan with %o'r

ho'se shown on it wo'ld that *e to the north east

so'th or west o the ho'se

A. rom the so'th.

D. rom that moment did %o' and %o'r ather see

that %o'r *rother was l%in dead on the loor

A. Yes.

D. Yo'r ather " think *roke down *'t was

immediatel% shot in the head *% the older soldier and

a&&eared to die immediatel%

A. The soldier ordered him. e was the one who

35F2.



was ne6t to m% *rother M'ris. e told him to ste& o't

two ste&s and he *arel% did it and then he shot him

in the tem&le and killed him.

D. id the soldier also then shoot %o'

A. e immediatel% ater that he told me to

ste& o't two ste&s and then he shot a *'llet into m%

tem&le.

D. Yo' mo4ed %o'r head 'st *eore he deli4ered

the shot and the *'llet *oth entered and e6ited %o'r

head7 is that correct

A. @ro*a*l%. e hit me in the let side o the

head and the *'llet e6ited thro'h m% riht cheek.

D. id %o' all to the ro'nd and &retend to *e

dead

A. Yes.

D. id the older soldier walk awa% altho'h

checkin that %o' were a&&arentl% dead on one occasion

A. Yes. e started comin *ack *'t then he

let.

D. ow lon did %o' sta% in the &osition that

%o' had taken on the ro'nd

A. 8er% *riel%. @erha&s a min'te or two.

D. !hat did %o' know o the condition o %o'r

mother and sisters

A. Mainl% that the% had sta%ed *ehind in the

35F3.

hallwa% in the ho'se the% were 4er% &ale and then "

did not see them ater that.

D. !as there an%thin %o' elt %o' co'ld do to

hel& them at that stae or not

A. There was no chance o m% hel&in them.

D. !here did %o' o rom %o'r ho'se

A. " went r'nnin to the main 8ite?1'so4aca

road.



D. ad %o' seen some 4ehicles mo4in alon the

road at that time

A. At that time nothin was comin. 1't while

" was *ein e6ec'ted there were 4ehicles &assin down

that road.

D. !as that -nited #ations 4ehicles

A. Yes. There was a con4o% there.

D. Lookin at the &lan can %o' &oint

wherea*o'ts on the road %o' went

A. " ran to this &osition to this &lace marked

with n'm*er (indicatin).

D. id %o' sta% hidin in that area or the

whole o that da% and the ollowin niht

A. Yes.

D. !ere %o' a*le to hide in what was eecti4el%

a drain or a ditch or stream co4ered with a drain

A. "t was a drain or a stream which was &assin

35F.

'nder this road.

D. !ere %o' ho&in to see 'rther -nited #ations

4ehicles that %o' co'ld alert to %o'r condition and

&osition

A. " was on the road or onl% i4e min'tes and

then " had to clim* down into the drain *eca'se "

noticed soldiers r'nnin towards me rom the direction

o >'me.

D. $o had %o' at least ho&ed to see -nited

#ations 4ehicles ,'st KYesK or K#o.K

A. Yes.

D. 1't in the e4ent sta%in in this stream did

%o' see mo4ements o other soldiers thro'ho't that

da%

A. Yes " did see them.

D. "n an% e4ent %o' did not see an% -nited



#ations soldiers who co'ld hel& %o'

A. #o *'t occasionall% " wo'ld hear 4ehicles

&assin o4er me on the road.

D. id %o' ha4e to s'*mere almost com&letel% in

the water when soldiers were in the area to a4oid

detection

A. Yes.

D. #e4ertheless were %o' a*le to see soldiers

and to see the markins on their sho'lders and

35F5.

elsewhere that indicated what ro'&s the% came rom

A. Yes.

D. !hat markins did %o' see or what other

indicators o militar% ro'&s did %o' see

A. " saw the 8H insinia 8 insinia and the

s&ecial&'r&ose 'nit 8ite?o4i insinia.

M/. #"0E: 0o'ld %o' look &lease at

E6hi*its 25F and ;529 which are the two &atches or

colo'red co&ies o them 0o'ld the% 'st *e laid on

to& o the &lans @lease dont mo4e the &lans *eca'se

well come *ack to them.

D. ow did the &atches that %o' saw com&are with

the &atches now *ein shown to %o'

A. The% were similar to these. The% looked like

these.

D. id %o' also see &eo&le with distincti4e

colo'red *elts

A. Yes.

D. !hat was the siniicance o them !hat was

the colo'r o the *elts and what was the siniicance

A. The *elts were white and " ass'med that

these were the militar% &olice 'nits.

D. id %o' see &eo&le in *lack 'niorms

A. Yes.



D. The siniicance o that &lease

35FF.

A. "t meant that these were the 'niorms which

*eloned to the -stashas or the H$. H$ had s'ch

similar *lack 'niorms and in !orld !ar "" the

-stashas 'sed to wear s'ch *lack 'niorms.

D. id %o' see soldiers dressed like this

thro'ho't the da% or 'st at &artic'lar &eriods o the

da%

A. " saw these soldiers who were in this area

(indicatin) onl% in the mornin and this was within

a*o't an ho'r as the% were rero'&in. "n this area

(indicatin) " saw soldiers within a &eriod o o'r or

i4e ho'rs *'t at inter4als o a*o't an ho'r as the%

were &assin thro'h in ro'&s o the si?e o a s<'ad.

M/. #"0E: The witness has indicated in

eneral terms the three marked ro'tes 5 F and I on

the &lan.

D. Are %o' sa%in that the soldiers came alon

the ro'tes marked 5 F and I in the mornin and

shortl% ater %o'r arri4al in the stream

A. The 5 and F was in the mornin and the

direction marked I was thro'ho't the whole da%.

D. As *etween 8H &eo&le with the white *elts

and the &eo&le in the *lack 'niorms are %o' a*le to

associate those dierent ro'&ins with an% o these

&artic'lar n'm*ers 5 F and I

35FI.

A. The direction marked *% 5 was where the

militar% &olice mem*ers came '& r'nnin and e4en

ci4ilians carr%in 'niorms so it was a mi6ed 'nit and

a s&ecial&'r&ose 'nit. The direction marked *% F is

where the 'nits in *lack 'niorms were de&lo%in and



the direction marked I was a 4er% welle<'i&&ed 'nit

the si?e o a &latoon and with them " noticed that

some wore the 8 and the 8H insinia and the% had

dierent colo'r ri**ons on their sho'lders. Hne was

reen *lack white. Each ro'& had dierent colo'r

ri**ons. " saw a*o't o'r or i4e s'ch ro'&s.

D. 1% the end o the da% had %o'r wo'nd swollen

'& and were %o' 4er% cold rom *ein s'*stantiall%

s'*mered in water

A. Yes.

D. ad %o' seen ho'ses in the 4illae o Ahmici

*'rnin

A. Yes. " saw 4er% soon that m% own ho'se was

on ire and the other ho'ses *elow the road the% were

*'rnin. "n the e4enin when " emered rom this

shelter where " was in " saw that other ho'ses were

*'rnin.

D. !e ma% deal with that in a little more detail

later. 1't in s'mmar% were an% 0roat ho'ses *'rned

to %o'r knowlede

35F.

A. " think that no 0roatian ho'se was *'rned *%

the 1osniaks *'t " know that in the hamlet o $antici

a ire was started at rao ,osi&o4ics ho'se and "

know that 8ite? T8 or >are* T8 came. A T8 crew came

and ilmed it and &resented it as i the 1osniaks had

attacked 0roats and that was somethin that was to

trick their a'diences. This is what " was told later

*% &eo&le who were im&risoned in 8ite? who saw this

*roadcast.

D. Thank %o'.

A. "t was some kind o a shed that was torched.

D. As to the e4ents cold and wet did %o' see

lookin at the &lan that the ho'se marked n'm*er ;+



was on ire ,'st &oint it o't i "4e ot it riht.

A. !hen " saw it it had alread% *een *'rned

down *'t it was still *'rnin o't.

D. id %o' o there or shelter and indeed to

et warm

A. Yes %es.

D. !hen %o' ot there did %o' in d'e co'rse

ind that there were soldiers in the area o that

ho'se

A. Yes.

D. Takin it <'ite shortl% %o' inside the ho'se

and the soldiers o'tside what sort o soldiers were

35F9.

the% *% their markins

A. " co'ld not reconise the markins *eca'se it

was nihttime. The% were &ro*a*l% 0roatian soldiers.

D. irst o all did %o' o4erhear somethin rom

ho'se marked n'm*er ;+ in the co'rse o that niht

comin rom %o'r ho'se marked n'm*er ;

A. " heard a 4oice *'t onl% in the mornin. "

heard m% mothers 4oice as she was cr%in and sa%in

KThe% killed m% h's*and and m% sons.K 1't it was

o% and " co'ldnt see an%thin. " 'st heard it.

D. " think that was the last time %o' e4er heard

%o'r mothers 4oice.

A. Yes.

D. Yo'r sister was also killed in d'e co'rse

A. Yes. " learned o that later.

M/. #"0E: $o %o' were in the ho'se marked

n'm*er ;+. " &ro&ose to read

A. Yes.

M/. #"0E: &arara&h ;F to the witness to

make lie easier and <'icker 'nless there is an%

o*ection.



D. id the ollowin ha&&en "m oin to read

%o' <'ite a lon &assae and then "m oin to ask %o'

i its acc'rate.

id %o' see two 8H militar% &olicemen comin

35I+.

to the ho'se in a car with the soldiers alread% at the

ho'se sa%in to them that there was a M'ahedin in the

ho'se the soldiers askin the militar% &olicemen what

to do. The commander o the militar% &olicemen said

the% sho'ld throw a renade into the ho'se and kill the

&erson there. That was done. The renade hit the

ro'nd *'t %o' ot onto the loor " think &lannin

to i4e the a&&earance o *ein dead e4en i %o'

s'r4i4ed and the ho'se was 'll o smoke.

Two 8H soldiers came to the window to see

whether %o' were dead. E4er%thin was *'rnin and %o'

were nearl% %o'rsel on ire. The% saw %o' mo4in and

realised %o' were not in act dead. The% went awa% to

et some d%namite to *low the ho'se '&. Yo' went to

the window and wa4ed to two 0roatian neih*o'rs who

came to the ho'se reconised %o' sa4ed %o' and took

%o' to >'me to a collection centre.

"s that *roadl% s&eakin acc'rate

A. "t is. "t is. "t wasnt a shell it was a

renade and the ho'se was &racticall% red'ced to

ashes. There was onl% one &art o it smo'lderin

still. 1't %es that is the ist o it.

D. The two 0roat neih*o'rs can %o' name them

A. Yes. Hne has died $imo 8ido4ic and the

other one was "4o @a&ic.

35I;.

D. rom wherea*o'ts on the &lan did the% come

,'st &oint it o't &lease.



A. The% came rom here (indicatin) rom this

ho'se and the sta*le and there is a de&ression a

4alle% or a 'll% and that is how the% walked.

M/. #"0E: The witness marked an area not ar

rom the markin 3 on the ma&.

D. Yo' were taken to the collection centre at

'*ra4ica. ,'st i4e me one min'te.

M/. #"0E: Ma% the witness &lease ha4e

E6hi*it ;9+

,-GE MAY: !hen %o' et to a con4enient

moment Mr. #ice.

M/. #"0E: 0ertainl% %es. Aain this can

*e let sim&l% on to& o the others.

" the 0o'rt takes the ma& and t'rns it

aro'nd so that its not <'ite '&side down it will see

in the *ottom rihthand corner the *end in the road

and the little rhom*oid sha&e o roads that " indicated

earlier miht *e a 'se'l sin &ost and will *e a*le to

connect this ma& which shows $antici and '*ra4ica

which is then held this wa% a little '& to the

lethand side.

$o i %o' wo'ld like to &lace this ma& on the

ELMH with that sort o orientation &lease. #o "

35I2.

dont think so. That wa% aro'nd &lease. All riht.

D. !ell we can see Mr. Ahmic that $antici is

to the to& riht as %o're lookin at it on the ELMH

and theres a road down to '*ra4ica. ow did %o' et

taken to the collection centre

A. !e walked in a col'mn down this road here

(indicatin).

D. ow man% o %o'

A. " *elie4e there were a*o't a h'ndred o 's

women and children and a ew men.



D. An% or man% men o %o'r sort o ae

A. Hne onl%. There was onl% one.

D. That was one other or 'st %o'

A. Yes me and another one.

,-GE MAY: a4e %o' ot 4er% m'ch more

M/. #"0E: #o. Theres little in the te6t

and theres a n'm*er o &hotora&hs *'t the% can *e

dealt with switl%.

,-GE MAY: 8er% well. " ho&e t'rnin to

the eence that we can inish crosse6amination *%

tomorrow.

M/. $TE"#: !ell i4e it o'r *est shot *'t

" think we sho'ld *e a*le to.

,-GE MAY: !ell ado'rn now.

Mr. Ahmic wo'ld %o' *e *ack &lease at

35I3.

;+.++ tomorrow mornin when " ho&e that we shall *e

a*le to concl'de %o'r e4idence.

TE !"T#E$$: Yo'r ono'r no &ro*lem.

!here'&on the hearin ado'rned at

.+2 &.m. to *e recon4ened on

rida% the ;;th da% o ,'ne ;999

at ;+.++ a.m.

35I.

!"T#E$$: A1-LA AM"0 (/es'med)

E6amined *% Mr. #ice:


D. Mr. Ahmic *eore we &ick '& %o'r acco'nt

rom what ha&&ened once %o' ot to '*ra4ica " want a

little more detail in relation to e4ents that occ'rred

while %o' were waitin in the stream or ditch and in

&artic'lar " want %o'r hel& i %o' can &ro4ide it

with identities o an% o the soldiers that %o' saw.



M/. #"0E: Yo'r ono'r "4e told Mr. $tein

what " ha4e in mind to do and " think that larel% it

will *e noncontentio's and thereore it ma% *e

&ossi*le to lead with names. Mr. $tein will tell i

and when he wants thins dealt with otherwise.

The names are dealt with or Mr. $teins

assistance and Mr. Jo4acics in the statement o the

35I.

3rd o e*r'ar% 95 and the additional doc'ment o

the ;st o e*r'ar% 9I. "m on &ae o the irst

statement towards the *ottom.

D. The two men who came to %o'r ho'se and killed

%o'r ather and *rother did an% o them look amiliar

to %o' and a&&ear as some*od% %o' had seen in 1'so4aca

A. Yes. The %o'ner one looked amiliar to me

and " think " 'sed to meet him in the Le&tir

iscothe<'e near 1'so4aca. M% 'ess is he comes rom

the 4illae o 1'seli or *elow 1'seli another

4illae called 1are.

D. id %o' know he was a mem*er o an armed

ro'& *eore %o' saw him at %o'r ho'se

A. #o no " didnt.

D. A matter o detail rom when %o' were in the

stream or ditch. id %o' act'all% see somethin o the

destr'ction o the mos<'e in Ahmici in that %o' saw "

think &eo&le o to the mos<'e enterin it and

s'*se<'entl% %o' saw the to& o the minaret *lown o

A. That was the &eriod o the 2+th o Hcto*er

when " saw the to& o the minaret one. And also on

the ;Ith o A&ril 93 " also saw the minaret o o

so that it was on two occasions that " witnessed the

demolition o minarets. Hn two occasions thereore

in Hcto*er 92 and A&ril 93.

35.



D. ealin with the A&ril 93 damae and

destr'ction had %o' seen an%thin o &eo&le enterin

and lea4in the mos<'e *eore and ater the damae or

did %o' 'st see the damae rom a distance

A. " s&otted a car arri4in rom the direction

o 1'so4aca and rom it emered militar% &olicemen who

mo4ed towards the mos<'e and a terriic e6&losion

co'ld *e heard immediatel% aterwards.

/iht ater the e6&losion the same car came

near me where " was hidin to the ho'se in which " was

hidin and those were militar% &olicemen rom 1'so4aca

and their commander7 that is " concl'ded that rom the

talk amonst them which " o4erheard.

D. !hat did %o' hear them sa%

A. !ell irst the wa% in which the% reeted one

another and the two o them who one o them asked

K!hats new in 1'so4acaK KE4er%thin is all riht.

And what a*o't %o'K And he wo'ld sa% K0ommander

we4e ot a M'ahedin here ca&t'red. !hat are we to do

with himK Then the commander sa%s K!ell throw a

*om* kill him.K

D. ealin with soldiers %o' saw while %o' were

in the ditch was one o them known to %o' *% the

nickname 0ico or similar This is &ae 5 o the irst

doc'ment and " think am&liied or corrected in the

359.

second doc'ment at &ae I. The name 0ico

A. "t is a nickname 0ico *'t his name was

#ikica $aradin and he was the irst one to *rin those

soldiers. e seemed to *e sort o a commander o the

militar% &olice and " saw that he was the one who

de&lo%ed or rather tasked those soldiers.

" also reconised raan $antic. raan

$antic comes rom /o4na and "lia $antic whom " also



saw there came rom the 4illae o Mahala. " also saw

raan Matko4ics *rother who attended the same class

with me in school and one o ,o?o Matko4ics son rom

the 4illae o /ieka. Also 1la? Totic. e wore

ci4ilian clothes and he 'sed to *e the dri4er at the

com&an% called Masinoradna where " was em&lo%ed

once.

Those were *% and lare men " reconised

and knew their names.

" also knew some &eo&le rom 8ite?. That is

" knew them *% siht *'t " dont know their names.

There were <'ite a n'm*er o them who came rom aro'nd

8ite? " mean in that ro'& which arri4ed toether with

$aradin.

" e4en noticed some men who had their heads

masked that is the% had *lack socks o4er their heads

and some in ci4ilian clothes *'t carr%in arms.

359+.

D. The named men did %o' know an% some or all

o them to *e mem*ers o a militar% 'nit *eore the

time that %o' saw them rom %o'r 4antae &oint in the

ditch

A. " knew a*o't 0ico. " knew he was a mem*er o

the militar% &olice. $antic "lia $antic he also was

with the militar% &olice *eore that attack *eca'se "

'sed to see *oth o them at check&oints.

D. A matter o detail. !hen the renade or *om*

was thrown into the ho'se in which %o' were hidin

ater %o' had s&ent the da% in the ditch did %o' see

what sort o de4ice it was how it was s'&&osed to

ca'se damae

A. "t was a socalled Jasikara a renade which

was thrown at me. "t was *lack.

D. As a res'lt o the e6&losion did %o' lose



s'*stantial hearin in %o'r let ear

A. " did %es m% hearin was damaed " *elie4e

aro'nd + &er cent in m% let ear and " kee& hearin a

*'??in so'nd e4er since that e6&losion to this da%.

D. !hen the two 0roats to whom %o' t'rned or

hel& took %o' awa% did %o' learn o the death o

%o'r no " *e %o'r &ardon did %o' ask them to deal

with the *'rial o %o'r ather and *rother and sa% the%

co'ld take ++ e'tschmarks rom %o'r athers &ocket

359;.

to *'r% them

M/. #"0E: And aain "m oin to deal with

this *% leadin 'nless its not acce&ted.

D. "n act did %o' 'nderstand there were other

&eo&le dealin s&eciicall% with the *'rial o the

dead *'t %o' s'*se<'entl% were inormed that %o'r

athers *od% had *een re*'ried in order that some*od%

co'ld take the ++ marks o't o his &ocket "

thats correct &lease 'st sa% K%esK.

A. Yes it is. "t was done *% a %o'n man

called ali*or. e was one who did it. 1't " learned

that later ater the war.

D. Answer KYesK or K#oK &lease to the ne6t

<'estion or series o <'estions when its &ossi*le:

id %o' s'*se<'entl% hear rom other &eo&le a*o't 'nits

who ma% ha4e *een in4ol4ed in the massacre or the

attack on this da%

A. " heard that 'nits which were called

,okers

D. The answer is s'&&osed to *e %es

A. Yes.

D. Mr. $tein " think is content.

M/. $TE"#: "m content with the answer *'t

as to the ne6t <'estion " think %o' o'ht to let him



answer on his own as o&&osed to tellin him the answer.

3592.

M/. #"0E:

D. Tell 's who it was then %o' heard a*o't

and rom whom %o' heard it.

A. " dont <'ite 'nderstand %o'r <'estion.

D. id %o' hear a*o't a ro'& said to *e

in4ol4ed and i so rom whom did %o' hear a*o't this

ro'&

A. " heard it later ater the conlict. That

is when " heard a*o't that name that is ,okers

,okeri and that the% took &art and that also there

were others called 8ite?o4i who committed those

*'tcheries. 1't it was onl% ater " had arri4ed in

>enica.

D. And who told %o' i %o' can remem*er a*o't

those ro'&s and their in4ol4ement

A. " cant reall% recall 'st now *'t &eo&le

talked a*o't it. "t was common knowlede.

D. $econdl% was there an% reerence to &eo&le

comin rom 0roatia itsel

A. Yes. "ndeed " heard also a*o't those men in

*lack 'niorms and that the% came rom 8ara?din. "

heard that rom erid Ahmic also ater the conlict.

or a while he was e4en a mem*er o H$ and on the

e4e o the attack on the ;Fth o A&ril he li4ed in the

4illae o #adioci so that he did ha4e some more

3593.

inormation and he told me that men in *lack 'niorms

came rom as ar as 8ara?din rather were *ro'ht

rom as ar as 8ara?din.

D. 8ara?din is in 0roatia

A. Yes.



D. And in which direction rom Ahmici Towards

the coast

A. 8ara?din is rather ar awa%. "t is close to

the $lo4enian *order so to the west o Ahmici i "

ma% &'t it that wa%.

D. Thank %o' 4er% m'ch. Then we &ick the

acco'nt %o' a4e %esterda% '& at %o'r o'rne% to

'*ra4ica.

M/. #"0E: To remind the 'des o the

eora&h% i the% need it it miht *e hel&'l or the

ma&s to o *ack on the ELMH startin with the o4erhead

ma& with #'m*er ;.9+ on to& o that which we looked

at *'t 4er% *riel% %esterda% and with the smaller

ma&s a4aila*le &lease.

" %o're lookin at that ma& %o' were taken

in a col'mn and %o' are lookin at ma& ;.9+ %o'

were taken in a col'mn to '*ra4ica school

A. Yes.

D. At '*ra4ica were men sereated rom women

A. The% were *'t not all o them *eca'se there

359.

was no room or women in the &lace where the% were

tr%in to &'t them '& so there were also some in the

%mnasi'm.

D. ow man% &eo&le were there altoether so ar

as %o' co'ld 'de

A. The larest n'm*er was the% were *ro'ht

in ro'& ater ro'&. " sho'ld sa% when " came there

that there were a*o't 5++ &eo&le there.

D. ,'st KYesK or K#oK &lease to this

<'estion: id %o' hear somethin o what ma% ha4e

ha&&ened to some women ,'st KYesK or K#o.K

A. Yes " did.

D. rom whom did %o' hear what ma% ha4e ha&&ened



to some women

A. " heard that directl% rom a woman who had

told her h's*and and he was riht ne6t to me he was

l%in on the same mat with me so that ...

D. Thereore can %o' &lease tell 's what %o'

heard

M/. $TE"#: !ell " wo'ld ha4e to o*ect.

This is as to crimes and o co'rse *% its 4er%

nat're is testimon% a*o't crime rom a 4ictim who is

tellin her h's*and a&&arentl% who is then tellin

this witness. The &re'dicial o this is clearl%

o'tweihed *% the le4el o hearsa%. !ere essentiall%

3595.

ettin into testimon% a*o't acts rom another &erson

to another &erson to this &erson. "ts one thin to

ha4e hearsa% le4els on *ackro'nd or corro*orati4e

e4idence *'t this oes directl% to the cor&'s o a

crime.

(Trial 0ham*er deli*erates)

,-GE MAY: "t makes no dierence that the

e4idence is a*o't a crime. !hat does make a dierence

is as to whether it is &otentiall% relia*le or not. As

ar as thats concerned each case will *e or ma% *e

dierent7 it will de&end on the circ'mstances. !e are

&re&ared to admit this e4idence or what its worth

and well ha4e to decide whether its worth an%thin or

not.

Let me 'st sa% this to the witness:

Mr. Ahmic we are makin some r'lins a*o't e4idence.

"ts no relection on %o' or the e4idence7 its to do

with the /'les o E4idence in the Tri*'nal. $o i "

ha4e a&&eared to make some sort o comment a*o't it

dont take an% notice.

M/. #"0E:



D. 0an %o' tell 's &lease what %o' heard a*o't

the treatment o women

A. " " ma% co'ld " 'st o *ack to what the

entleman said that it was hearsa%: "t wasnt. "t

359F.

was direct knowlede *eca'se " heard it rom the woman

hersel so that it is not secondhand inormation. "t

is irsthand inormation. $he was a*o't a metre a

awa% rom me. " cannot i4e %o' the names o other

women who were ra&ed7 " learned a*o't those later and

that indeed is hearsa%. 1't " know o at least two

more women who had *een ra&ed.

D. 1% whom did the% sa% the%d *een ra&ed i

the% identiied &er&etrators

A. #o no " did not hear that *'t those

were those co'ld *e 0roat soldiers.

D. rom the date o %o'r arri4al at the cam&

were &eo&le taken to di trenches

A. Yes.

D. ow man% &er da% or niht ro'hl% i %o'

can hel&

A. The% were *ein taken o't in ro'&s o ten

all the time to dierent areas aro'nd 8ite?: To

Jrce4ine to @irici /ieka and so on.

D. 8ol'ntaril% or *% com&'lsion

A. At the o'tset the% wo'ld ask i there were

an% 4ol'nteers and then at a later stae the% took

them *% com&'lsion.

D. At the cam& did some o the soldiers there

ha4e ri**ons on their sho'lders

359I.

A. " onl% s&otted one soldier with a *l'e ri**on

like the one worn *% those two who shot at me. "



noticed that one o the soldiers had that ri**on.

D. !hat rank did he ha4e in the cam&

A. " think he was the de&'t% o the cam&

commander.

D. Thank %o'.

M/. #"0E: Ma% the witness &lease ha4e now

or no "ll inish this.

D. Yo' sta%ed at the cam& or " think i4e

da%s *eore the /ed 0ross came and reistered %o'. Yo'

were checked one da% *% a doctor a 01$ ilm crew came

and 4isited %o' and in d'e co'rse %o' were mo4ed rom

'*ra4ica7 is that correct

A. Yes.

D. (#o micro&hone)

A. Yes.

D. And %o' ha4ent *een a*le to ret'rn to li4e

in %o'r own home and %o' ha4ent *een *ack to Ahmici

sa4e to 4isit it to see or whate4er reason

since

A. "t was im&ossi*le *eca'se the line had

alread% *een &ositioned and the war *etween 1osnians

and 0roats was in 'll swin at the time.

M/. #"0E: Ma% the witness &lease ha4e the

359.

@lan ;.593; and the 0ham*er will ind the irre'lar

white sha&e takes aain it has to *e 4iewed '&side

down takes %o' to the road a*o4e the mos<'e at

Ahmici and shows in a little more detail what lies to

the north and east o that &art o Ahmici.

D. ,'st hel& 's switl% i %o' can with the

&oints marked here. The n'm*ers and the letters are

'&side down. !hat ho'ses are these o siniicance

&lease -se the &ointer and 'st tell 's. 55

A. 55 is $'kria Ahmicis ho'se. KJK the



letter KJK is 8latko J'&reskics storae s&ace

storae acilit%. K0K is

,-GE MAY: #ow Mr. #ice whats the

rele4ance "m sorr% Mr. Ahmic to interr'&t *'t

whats the rele4ant o this

M/. #"0E: " was oin to deal with the

&hotora&hs which come ne6t and 4er% <'ickl% which

show the le4el o destr'ction o M'slim &ro&erties and

the nondestr'ction o nonM'slim &ro&erties and "m

'st ittin them into the eora&h% to assist the

0o'rt and it wont take 4er% lon.

,-GE MAY: 8er% well.

M/. #"0E: Thank %o'.

D. The other ho'ses KJK K0K and K,K well

%o'4e dealt with KJK7 K0K and K,K are what

3599.

A. K0K is >oran J'&reskics ho'se K,K is his

'ncles ho'se and this one here is Miro J'&reskics

and Miro J'&reskics athers ho'se. is athers name

was Ante.

D. #ow &lease take the irst o two al*'ms o

&hotora&hs which we can deal with 4er% switl%

*eca'se the%4e ot indices at their ront. This one

is E6hi*it ;.593A.

Yo'r ono'r the witness has *een thro'h

these &hotora&hs. The inde6 ma% stand eecti4el% as

his e4idence in chie i thats acce&ta*le to the

Tri*'nal in the interests o s&eed. Hne can mo4e

switl% thro'h the &hotora&hs to see ho'ses that are

destro%ed &a'sin at &hotora&h to sa%

,-GE MAY: "t ma% 'st *e hel&'l to o

thro'h them since we

M/. #"0E: Yes. Thank %o'. The &hotora&hs

then sho'ld o on the ELMH.



,-GE MAY: #o 'st sim&l% o thro'h them.

M/. #"0E: Yes.

@hotora&h ; &hotora&h 2 &hotora&h 3 show

destro%ed ho'ses in Ahmici o atima @atko4ic Esad

Ahmici and &ro*a*l% o 'sein Ahmici. @hotora&h 5

F I and show the mos<'e at Gorni Ahmici.

@hotora&h 9 shows the ho'se or the ho'ses o #ermin

3F++.

Jermo and #esim Ahmic *oth destro%ed. @hotora&h ;+

Midhat 1er*ic. @hotora&h ;; ,ahia @e?er in Gra*o4i

&art o Ahmici. ;2 the ho'se o $'kria Ahmic. ;3 "

dont think we need tro'*le with. ; is the 'ndamaed

ho'se o 8latko J'&reskic and we4e seen the eneral

location. ;5 the ho'se o a?im Ahmic with writin

on it to the eneral eect KE4er% T'rk who comes *ack

will *e sla'htered.K

M/. $TE"#: ,'st or the record " dont

o*ect to this &roceedin or &rocess *'t its

im&ortant as to this &hoto which is at ;5 and the

other &hotos which ha4e markins on the walls and

raiti to 'se o'r e6&ression to note that this

witness has not *een *ack to Ahmici since the ;Fth o

A&ril ;993 and we ha4e no idea when these 4ario's

raiti or markins with &ens were &laced *'t

&res'm&ti4el% ater the act.

,-GE MAY: !e will ind o't when the

&hotora&hs were taken in d'e co'rse.

M/. #"0E: "n d'e co'rse. " think the

witness has *een *ack *'t not to sta%.

;I the school. ; the ho'se o a?im

Ahmic. ;9 the mos<'e with the minaret l%in

hori?ontal. 2+ the mos<'e at oni Ahmici and 2;

" *e %o'r &ardon. 22 the raiti. " acce&t

3F+;.



entirel% Mr. $teins &oint a*o't the likel% datin o

the raiti. H co'rse its ater the e4ent.

KGood*%e *alias.K 23 a larer &hotora&h with

writin on the wall reerrin to Kisco ho'rs o

ashesK workin rom ;Fth o A&ril 93. 2 the ho'se

o A*d'lah Ahmic. 25 $eer Ahmics ho'se. 2F the

mos<'e aain with the words K0roatiaK. 2I the ho'se

on the let #ed?i* Ahmic7 the ho'se on the riht

>iad Ahmic. Then 2 'sein Ahmic is a ho'se. 29

1iat 1ilics ho'se. 3+ ehim Ahmic. 3; " *e %o'r

&ardon. 3+ was ilmia Ahmic. 3; ehim Ahmic. 32

$idia Ahmics ho'se. 33 /ed?o @e?er KMerr%

0hristmas *alias. !elcomeK in a ch'rch or 4illae

K!elcome. "t will *e the same.K 3 KHnl% ;;I

cas'altiesK written on this ho'se. KThe co'ntr% read%.

anero's or lie. Attention &lease.K 35 the ho'se

o $akir Ahmici. 3F we neednt tro'*le with. The

second smaller *lackandwhite

M/. $TE"#: E6c'se me or a second. " dont

o*ect to the admissi*ilit% and *eca'se o the

&roessional nat're o the 0o'rt " onl% rise to once

aain &oint o't that the &re'dicial lan'ae not

linked to o'r clients raiti ater the act has

*een admitted and we ask the 0o'rt essentiall% to

inore it.

3F+2.

M/. #"0E: The smaller al*'m o

*lackandwhite &hotora&hs that " ask the witness to

ha4e has ot indi4id'al n'm*ers.

,-GE MAY: !e dont ha4e them.

M/. #"0E: The% were made a4aila*le on the

desk %esterda%. The% ha4e *een distri*'ted to the

eence. "m so sorr% " tho'ht the% had *een. The%

contain materiall% the 'ndamaed minaret the



'ndamaed ho'ses and one or two amil% &hotora&hs

that the witness has &ro4ided.

,-GE MAY: !hat e6hi*it n'm*er is this

M/. #"0E: The%4e ot indi4id'al e6hi*it

n'm*ers on the inde6 rather than a collecti4e n'm*er

and the n'm*ers are shown as ;53; ;I9 and so on. "

it wo'ld *e more con4enient or this e6hi*it to *e

allocated a com&rehensi4e n'm*er "ll oranise that

ma%*e at the *reak and noti% the 0o'rt o it. "t

&ro*a*l% wo'ld *e more con4enient to deal with it that

wa%. "ndeed " imaine the most sensi*le thin or it

to *e wo'ld *e to *e ;5931 i that wo'ld *e

con4enient.

,-GE MAY: 8er% well.

M/. #"0E: " &ass <'ickl% *eca'se " think

this will hel& to the second &hotora&h. The irst

one has ot raiti. The second one is the minaret

3F+3.

'ndamaed. The third &hotora&h is damaed ater the

attack on the 2th o Hcto*er with damae at the to&.

"ts not "m araid 4er% clear *'t we4e at least

heard a*o't it. Then the ne6t &hotora&h is the ho'se

o raan and "4o @a&ic o whom we4e heard 0roats.

Then the ne6t &hotora&h is the 'ndamaed sho& o the

J'&reskics or the wareho'se. The ollowin &hotora&h

o two 'ndamaed ho'ses is the 'ndamaed ho'ses o

"4ica J'&reskics ho'se and >orans ho'se >oran

J'&reskics ho'se. The ollowin &hotora&h is the

'ndamaed ho'se o Miran ather o Ante J'&reskic.

" will ask the witness i he can 'st look at

the ollowin &hotora&h ;5323.

D. 0an %o' tell 's a*o't that ho'se &lease or

an% ho'se here

A. This is the ho'se o the *'tcher (indicatin)



who we 'sed to call >ilo. There is a *'tcher sho& here

(indicatin) and the third ho'se *ehind it is where "

was *ro'ht alon with some women later when the% took

's to '*ra4ica the third ho'se when %o' o this wa%

here (indicatin). This is the main 8ite?1'so4aca

road (indicatin).

D. There ollows &hotora&hs o %o'r late

*rother %o'r late mother as a %o'ner woman. Thats

%o'r *rother and %o'r late mother as a %o'ner woman

3F+.

and other amil% mem*ers in the last &hotora&h.

Yo' ha4ent %et told 's *'t the &osition is

that %o'r mother and sister who were let at the ho'se

the% were killed

M/. #"0E: ,'st lea4e that last &hotora&h

&lease.

A. Yes. The% were killed in the '&&er 4illae

o Ahmici m% mother and all three sisters. "

concl'ded this rom the statement made *% 1o* $tewart

the commander o the 1ritish 1attalion when 0##

re&orts showed the ho'se and he said that a woman and

her da'hters had *een killed there. $ince " knew that

in Ahmici there were no other women with more than one

da'hter who miht ha4e *een killed " knew that it was

them and its the ho'se o ?emal Ahmic and his son

'sein. " concl'ded this rom the re&ort and " saw

the ho'se in the e6hi*its shown 'st a short while

ao.

M/. #"0E: This &hotora&h has

,-GE /H1"#$H#: Mr. #ice in an% e4ent he

hasnt seen them since that time

M/. #"0E: #o no.

D. 1't this &hotora&h shows whom &lease

Mr. Ahmic the &hotora&h were now lookin at



A. This is m% %o'nest sister Alma

3F+5.

(indicatin). This is m% co'sin $amir (indicatin)

who was also killed in the attack on the ;Fth o

A&ril. This is another relati4e o mine (indicatin)

and these two children (indicatin) are not related to

me. This was taken at a *irthda% &art% in 8ite?.

M/. #"0E: Thank %o' 4er% m'ch. inall% *%

wa% o the ma& and "m not oin to ask %o' to deal

with it in an% detail *eca'se %o'4e dealt with it on

an earlier occasion and its a4aila*le or <'estionin

i asked ma% he 'st see &lease ;9I9

Aain i we ha4e the larescale ma& o&en

irst to remind the Tri*'nal %es the larescale

ma& this one. #o %o' were riht the irst time. La%

that o't. Thank %o'. Thats riht. Thank %o' 4er%

m'ch. " %o' now &'t the other ma& on to& o it and

aain '&side down &lease and we can see how one

relates to the other.

D. This shows Mr. Ahmic does it not the area

*etween Ahmici and $antici

A. Yes. This is the hamlet o >'me which

*elons to $antici.

D. A n'm*er o ho'ses ha4e *een marked and are

%o' in a &osition to deal i asked with either man%

or all o those ho'ses and who li4ed in them at the

time "m not oin to ask %o' *'t i asked i

3F+F.

an%*od% else wants to know %o' can deal with the

detail o man% o these ho'ses

A. Yes %es " can. "ts not a &ro*lem.

D. M% last <'estion is this:

Mr. $tein ma% care to look at &ae o the



statement o the 3rd o e*r'ar%.

There were dierent commanders in chare o

the dierent localities #adioci and so on7 is that

riht

A. Yo're askin me

D. Yes.

A. "n m% statements " mentioned the local

commanders rom #adioci to $antici. " %o' want " can

state their names aain who the% were in m% o&inion.

" know that in #adioci it was 1ranko. is name was

1ranko. " cant recall his last name. Hh @erko4ic

1ranko @erko4ic. "n the 4illae o Gra*o4i it was

>oran J'&reskic. "n the 4illae o >'me in $antici it

was #enad $antic. $la4ko Milice4ic was in m% 4illae

where " was. "t was called Jrce4ine. e was a

hiherle4el commander and he oten went to 8ite?. e

was alwa%s on the o. e dro4e a reen 4an.

D. @a'sin there were these men known to %o'

*eore the A&ril 93 attack

A. Yes. " knew them all.

3F+I.

D. !ere an% o them distin'isha*le one rom

the other *% the strenth or e6tremit% o their

&olitical 4iews

A. "n m% o&inion @a&ic who was in >'me he was

somewhat milder so it seems that he sa4ed some women

and children rom >'me. $o in m% o&inion he was less

e6treme.

D. " dont want %o'r o&inion not *eca'se "

dont want it *'t *eca'se it ma% *e that its not

a&&ro&riate or %o'r o&inion to *e i4en. 1't i %o'

carr% on with the answers %o'4e dealt with his *ein

less o an e6tremist or more moderate and the women and

children in that localit% *ein sa4ed.



As to the other localities with what

strenth or weakness did the commanders %o'4e s&oken

o hold &olitical 4iews

,-GE MAY: !ell " dont think were oin

to *e assisted *% this.

M/. #"0E: $o *e it. "ts &ro*a*l% as ar as

" want to o eecti4e in an% e4ent.

Yes thank %o' 4er% m'ch. !ait there

&lease.

,-GE /H1"#$H#: Mr. #ice "m not s're i

the matter that " raise has e4idential siniicance

*'t it certainl% has a h'man interest element that "

3F+.

ind irresisti*le.

Yesterda% the witness a4e e4idence that on

the ;Fth o A&ril when the soldiers a&&roached his

ho'se he heard and reconised the 4oice o one o his

0roatian neih*o'rs. " think its "4o @a&ic. That

neih*o'r eecti4el% s&'rred the soldiers on to the

Ahmic ho'se his ho'se. " 'st want to ind o't what

kind o relationshi& he had with this neih*o'r &rior

to this e4ent.

A. !ell '& to we miht sa% ;992 o'r

relations were ood. Ater the tension o'r relations

as neih*o'rs deteriorated.

M/. #"0E:

D. That deterioration was it &artic'lar to %o'

and this &artic'lar neih*o'r or was it similar to the

deterioration in relationshi&s that %o' ma% ha4e

enco'ntered with other 0roatians li4in in %o'r

4illae 0roats li4in in %o'r 4illae

A. The o4erall relations chaned *'t we miht

sa% mostl% on the side o the 0roats *eca'se the%

*ecame aloo. The% had their own oals and we



concl'ded this. The% wo'ld t'rn awa% rom 's more and

more. The% most &ro*a*l% had certain aims the% wanted

to achie4e.

D. A&art rom the eneral de4elo&ment o tension

3F+9.

*etween the two comm'nities was there an%thin

s&eciic that *ro'ht a*o't a decline in the relations

*etween %o'rsel and "4o @a&ic

A. #o there was nothin s&eciic *'t mostl%

o'r relations cooled ra&idl% not 'st *etween 's *'t

amon the entire &o&'lation o Ahmici and 'rther

aield.

M/. #"0E: " ho&e that clariies the matter.

,-GE /H1"#$H#: Thank %o'.

,-GE MAY: Mr. $tein " dont ha4e to tell

%o' this *'t nonetheless " sho'ld sa% &'*licl% that we

e6&ect witnesses who ha4e had e6&eriences o this sort

to *e e6amined co'rteo'sl% and with restraint and

e6&editio'sl%.

M/. $TE"#: !ith res&ect " hardl% need to *e

reminded.

!hat is the 0o'rts &leas're relati4e to

timin this mornin so " can a'e

,-GE MAY: Ma%*e we will take the *reak

towards hal &ast ;;.++.

M/. $TE"#: 8er% ood $ir. Thank %o'. $ir

m% name is 1o* $tein. " re&resent ario Jordic.

0rosse6amined *% Mr. $tein:


D. M% irst <'estion is do %o' s&eak or read the

3F;+.

Enlish lan'ae

A. 8er% little. " dont s&eak and " dont read



*'t " learned some Enlish at school.

M/. $TE"#: "m araid "m not ettin the

answer thro'h m% headset.

,-GE MAY: 0an the answer *e re&eated

&lease

A. " dont s&eak or read the Enlish lan'ae

*'t " know a little 4er% little *eca'se " learned

Enlish in secondar% school.

M/. $TE"#:

D. 8er% ood sir. " theres an% <'estion that

" ask %o' that %o' dont 'nderstand &lease let me know

and " will re&eat the <'estion.

Yesterda% %o' testiied that *eore the

elections relations *etween %o' and %o'r neih*o'rs

were Krelati4el% oodK. M% <'estion is this: !hat did

%o' mean *% Krelati4el% oodK

A. !hen " said Krelati4el% oodK " meant that

we did not ha4e e6tremel% ood relations. Thats wh% "

'sed the word Krelati4el%K.

D. "s that to sa% that &art o %o'r relations

were not ood

A. "t de&ends. "t 4aried rom case to case.

D. !o'ld %o' i4e me some e6am&les &lease o

3F;;.

relationshi&s that rom case to case 4aried showin

the relationshi&s were not ood

A. " will onl% tell %o' a eneral e6am&le. The

1osnian 0roats essentiall% had a kind o *eha4io'r.

The% didnt want to ha4e e6tremel% ood relations.

The% were <'ite closed. The% associated more amon

themsel4es as ar as " can tell. Thats wh% " said

Krelati4el%K.

D. All riht. o " take it that as a %o'n *o%

and e4en into %o'r teenae %ears %o' were ed'cated in



schools 'nder the 0omm'nist s%stem that was the

&olitical a'thorit% in 1osnia d'rin that time &eriod

A. Yes " went to school.

D. As " 'nderstand it the doctrines ta'ht in

those schools and held *% the 0omm'nist @art% were s'ch

that all &eo&les in 1osnia were to *e *rothers and

treated e<'all%.

A. Yes.

D. To the e6tent that i an%one de4iated rom

that *eha4io'r that was condemned *% the &olitical

s%stem

A. #ot reall%. #ot com&letel%.

D. !o'ld %o' i4e me an e6am&le o how &ersons

who s&oke o't aainst this s%stem o 0omm'nism and

*rotherhood wo'ld *e treated

3F;2.

A. Yes. The% were condemned.

D. 0ondemned *% whom sir

A. 1% the 0omm'nist o4ernment.

D. All riht. $o the o4ernment held o't as one

o its 4iews that e4er%one sho'ld *e e<'al treated

e<'all% and those that didnt ollow that doctrine

were condemned7 is that riht

A. Yes.

D. And thereore whate4er was in the &ersons

act'al hearts and minds and eelins was told to kee&

it <'iet *eca'se the 0omm'nist s%stem re<'ired a le4el

o *rotherhood7 is that riht

A. Yo' co'ld sa% that.

D. !h% did %o' resin rom the $A &art% *eore

the war

A. There were no s&ecial reasons. 1't &arties

can chane and " &reerred the $@ &art%.

D. 0an %o' tell 's wh% &lease



A. " sa% that a &erson can chane &olitical

&arties. e can lea4e one &art% to oin another

*eca'se the other &art% has a *etter &roramme.

D. !hat s&eciicall% attracted %o' to the

other &art%s &roramme This is m% last <'estion on

this &artic'lar &oint.

A. " didnt oin the $@ *'t " let the $A

3F;3.

&art%.

D. 8er% ood sir. #ow do " take it that

oinin the TH was not com&'lsor%

A. #o it wasnt at the *einnin.

D. !hen %o' oined did %o' oin 4ol'ntaril%

A. Yes.

D. And do " take it 'rther that when the 8H

was ormed M'slims were allowed to oin the 8H

A. Yes.

D. "ndeed the 8H asked M'slims to oin them7

isnt that correct

A. #o the% didnt ask *'t *eore the conlict

o the ;Fth o A&ril ;993 the% iss'ed an 'ltimat'm

that the arm% o 1osniaer?eo4ina in 0entral 1osnia

sho'ld s'*ordinate itsel to the command o the 8H.

D. @erha&s "m con'sin %o' with m% <'estion.

Let me orient %o' towards A&ril o ;992. 0an we aree

that at that &oint in time the 8H act'all% asked the

M'slims to oin it

A. #o it did not.

D. !ell sir let me orient the @rosec'tor and

%o'rsel and "ll tr% to do it 4er% <'ickl% to

%o'r statement dated e*r'ar% ; 9I at &ae 2

M/. $TE"#: @erha&s Mr. #ice and " can aree

witho't the 's'al litan% <'ote: KThe M'slims were

3F;.



allowed to oin the TH at the time. 8H asked the

M'slims to oin their arm% *'t the M'slims didnt do

that.K

0an we aree that thats what the statement

sa%s Mr. #ice Thats at the last &arara&h7 sorr%.

M/. #"0E: " can aree that in the Enlish

4ersion %es " can.

M/. $TE"#:

D. The Enlish 4ersion sa%s e6actl% what "4e

'st said sir. !o'ld %o' now reconsider %o'r answer

to the <'estion whether the 8H asked the M'slims to

oin them

A. This co'ld ha4e *een the case in the contacts

*etween &eo&le who knew each other and those who were

called or in4ited *% that wa% the% ma% ha4e oined it

in this wa%. 1't " do'*t that this was &laced in the

media &'*licl%. $o it was 'st on a &ri4ate *asis

amon the &eo&le who knew each other.

D. 8er% ood sir. And 'rther wo'ld %o' aree

that amonst %o'r &eo&le amonst the local o&inion

was that it was not riht or the maorit% to oin the

minorit% Aain this is taken directl% rom %o'r

statement same date &ae 2 last line.

A. Yes.

D. #ow do " take it sir also that enerall%

3F;5.

in Hcto*er o ;992 there were 2+ 8H soldiers li4in

in Ahmici

A. Yes.

D. The% were 'ardin the 4illae e4er% niht

A. Yes.

D. The% were 'ardin the 4illae to &rotect

rom an% 0hetnik attacks7 is that correct

A. Yes. That was onl% &ro4isionall%.



D. 8er% ood. And 'rther do " 'nderstand

correctl% that *eore %o'r *rother *ecame commander o

the local TH 'nit 'ad 1er*ic thats -A

1E/1"0 had *een the commander

A. 'ad.

D. 'ad %es. " a&oloise. 0orrect.

o we aree

A. Yes.

D. And there were 'nder his command as well as

%o'r *rothers command a*o't ;2+ men in the deence o

%o'r 4illae

A. Yes.

D. $ome o the indi4id'als had selmade

camo'lae o'tits

A. Yes.

D. And others o the mem*ers o the ;2+

mem*ers had no 'niorms at all

3F;F.

A. Yes.

D. And a*o't onethird o this ro'& were armed

A. Yes.

D. $o i " 'nderstand it the &ict're created is

we ha4e some indi4id'als with camo'lae and some

witho't7 correct

A. Yes.

D. $ome indi4id'als with wea&ons and some

witho't

A. Yes.

D. Thereore do " take it then when the% were

on &atrol some o the indi4id'als had wea&ons and

camo'lae

A. Yes.

D. $ome did "m sorr% some o the

indi4id'als wo'ld ha4e wea&ons *'t no camo'lae



A. Yes.

D. $ome o the indi4id'als wo'ld ha4e neither a

wea&on nor camo'lae

A. Yes that co'ld also ha4e ha&&ened.

D. And some o the indi4id'als wo'ld merel% ha4e

camo'lae and no wea&on

A. "t de&ended. "t was a case*%case thin.

"ts not reall% cr'cial.

D. 0ertainl%. Yet nonetheless wea&oned

3F;I.

camo'laed all or some o the indi4id'als were on

&atrol on 'ard in the 4illae as &art o their

d'ties

A. Yes. $ince the 0roats had 'ards as well we

also ke&t o'r 'ards.

D. 8er% ood. And the sit'ation that " 'st

descri*ed e6isted *oth in ;992 and in ;993 A&ril

A. #o %o' co'ld sa% that 'ntil the attack o 2+

Hcto*er 92. This was *eca'se we had to a*olish these

&atrols in the lower &art o the 4illae *eca'se o

this order *% the 8H.

D. !ith res&ect to %o'r answer sir and "

t'rn the @rosec'tion aain to the e*r'ar% ; ;99I

statement this time at &ae 5 the end o &arara&h

2. Yo'r statement o that date at &arara&h 2

reads <'ote: K"n ;993 there was still a 4illae 'ard

in the 4illae o Ahmici. "t 'nctioned in the same

wa% as in ;992.K

M/. $TE"#: Mr. #ice ha4e " ot that

correctl% @ae 5 statement o e*r'ar% ; 9I.

M/. #"0E: Yes " conirm that.

M/. $TE"#:

D. a4in read %o'r statement into the record

sir wo'ld %o' now like to reconsider %o'r answer



A. The 'ards in the '&&er &art o the 4illae

3F;.

'nctioned normall% as *eore7 *'t in the lower &art

&eo&le did o o't on 'ard d'ties *'t the% did so

stealthil%. The% wo'ld sort o hide their wea&ons or

somethin so that in the case o some 'noreseen

attack the% wo'ld *e a*le to inorm the &o&'lation.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) Mr. $tein

M/. $TE"#: $ir


in order or 's to *etter 'nderstand what is *ein

said can %o' ask the witness whether there was a

dierence within these &atrols at that time in ;993

a distinction then *etween -&&er Ahmici and Lower

Ahmici 1eca'se it seems that there is s'ch a

dierence so wh% is there s'ch a dierence 1eca'se

o the &o&'lation li4in in -&&er Ahmici and Lower

Ahmici or is this d'e to sec'rit% reasons dierent

rom the &oint o 4iew o -&&er Ahmici or Lower

Ahmici !hats the dierence !e ha4e to esta*lish

that.

M/. $TE"#:

D. Mr. !itness %o'4e heard the <'estion o the

,'de. !o'ld %o' &lease descri*e whether there were

two sit'ations Lower and -&&er and i so the

dierence *etween the two

A. The command was a sinle one *'t the

3F;9.

circ'mstances were dierent *eca'se the lower &art o

the 4illae was 'nder the 8H command and the%

monitored o'r mo4ements and whether we carried wea&ons

whereas the 8H did not ha4e an% o their command in

the '&&er &art o the 4illae so we co'ld carr% o't



normal &atrols '& there.

D. $o to inish %o'r answer " *elie4e the

answer we 'st heard is that in the lower &art o the

4illae the 8H did the &atrols whereas in the '&&er

&art the TH did the &atrols7 is that correct sir

A. The 8H had 4er% stron &atrols in the lower

&art o the 4illae and the% were monitorin o'r

mo4ements es&eciall% i we carried whether we

carried arms *eca'se that was &rohi*ited. As " said

*eore the 'ards wo'ld onl% show '& s'rre&titio'sl%

and onl% alon the road and &eo&le ma% ha4e onl%

carried &istols i the% went o't to &atrol.

D. Let me ask %o' this: "ts air to sa% is it

not that %o' also were monitorin the 8H acti4ities

KYo'K meanin the TH.

A. " cannot sa% so *eca'se " was not a

commander or a &art o the sta. " can onl% s&eak

a*o't m%sel.

D. !ell with res&ect sir %o' certainl% talked

to %o'r *rother a*o't TH acti4ities and other mem*ers

3F2+.

o the TH so " ask %o' the <'estion aain: "s it air

to sa% *ased on not 'st what %o' did and saw

%o'rsel *'t *ased on the common knowlede o what was

oin on in the TH is it air to sa% that %o' too %o'

also were monitorin the acti4ities o the 8H like

the% were monitorin %o'

A. "n m% statements " said that we se&aratel%

monitored the 8H acti4ities ollowin the conlict o

2+ Hcto*er ;992. The 8H acti4ities increased

siniicantl% ater that and m% *rother M'ris at that

time was &art o no command o the Territorial eence

or later o the 1 arm%.

D. 8er% ood sir. And that monitorin that %o'



did ater Hcto*er o ;992 res'lted in re&orts to the

hiher a'thorities7 isnt that riht

A. "nre<'entl%.

D. Those hiher a'thorities wo'ld *e where sir

A. The commands were in 8ite? Jr'scica and

@reocica.

D. 8er% ood sir. There came a time oh "m

sorr% let me *ack o one moment and ask %o' this

<'estion: rom %o'r descri&tion o the TH it

*asicall% was a town 'ard not a ro'& o &roessional

soldiers7 wo'ld %o' aree

A. Yes.

3F2;.

D. #onetheless in Hcto*er o ;992 Hcto*er ;9th

or 2+th %o'r local oranisation o town 'ards

recei4ed an order to make a *arricade and to *lock the

road7 thats correct isnt it

A. Yes.

D. rom where did the order come

A. rom the Territorial eence head<'arters in

8ite?.

D. All riht. #ow in %o'r statement o

3 e*r'ar% 95 thats e6actl% what %o' said.

owe4er "m c'rio's *eca'se in %o'r statement o

25 Hcto*er 9 &ae 2 and "ll wait or Mr. #ice

to catch '&.

Middle o the &ae or ma%*e twothirds down

%o' set o't <'ote: K!e had recei4ed orders rom

$arae4o to &re4ent s'ch lare orces rom oin to

Tra4nik so we &'t '& a road*lock in the 4illae o

Ahmici.K

o %o' recall sir whether the order came

rom 8ite? or rom $arae4o or rom some other

location



A. Accordin to the chain o command the main

head<'arters was in $arae4o and " ass'me that

&ro*a*l% the% called 8ite? rom $arae4o and ordered

them somethin.

3F22.

D. All riht. And who wo'ld *e the &erson in

that chain o command who a4e the order

A. Yo' mean at the to& le4el

D. 0orrect.

A. " *elie4e that it was $eer alilo4ic.

D. And *elow him wo'ld there *e someone else

who &otentiall% co'ld ha4e i4en the order

A. "n 8ite? there was " *elie4e that akia

0enic was commander o the Territorial eence at the

time.

D. Let me ask %o' clearl%: o %o' know

s&eciicall% who did i4e this &artic'lar order

A. " dont know s&eciicall% *'t " know that it

came rom the head<'arters in 8ite?.

D. 8er% ood. There is a ro'& called the

0oordinatin 0ommittee or @rotection o M'slims is

there not

A. " dont know a*o't that. "m not amiliar

with it.

D. All riht. And another <'estion alon the

same lines: !o'ld it ha4e *een &ossi*le or General

Merdan o the Ith 0or&s to ha4e i4en this &artic'lar

order 3rd 0or&s sorr%.

A. At that time there were no cor&s. There

were onl% Territorial eence stas. At that time

3F23.

the cor&s had not %et *een esta*lished.

D. air eno'h. /eardless o whether the cor&s



had *een esta*lished or not wo'ld it ha4e *een

&ossi*le or ?emal Merdan to ha4e iss'ed this order

,-GE MAY: !ell the witness sa%s that the

cor&s hadnt *een esta*lished so what he is sa%in is

that the order co'ldnt ha4e come rom there.

M/. $TE"#: " think there is a a& in the

loic there.

,-GE MAY: !ell its not assistin 's.

Lets mo4e on. "t wo'ld *e &'re s'&&osition on his

&art. is e4idence is that the order came rom 8ite?.

M/. $TE"#:

D. #ow in &re&aration to *lockade the road

amon the 4ario's thins %o' did was ather mines

landmines7 isnt that correct

A. Yes.

D. And mines had *een taken rom a wareho'se

*eore Hcto*er 2+

A. There were no wareho'ses.

D. !here were the mines ke&t *eore the action

o Hcto*er 2+

A. " dont know where the% were *'t as ar as "

know those mines were *ro'ht rom the $limena de&ot

near Tra4nik. !hen it was *lown '& then those mines

3F2.

were *ro'ht down there. " dont know *% whom and "

dont know who ke&t them.

D. /iht. As " 'nderstand it the ,#A *asicall%

let those mines *ehind. Yo'r troo&s took the mines

into the 4ario's homes and held them 'ntil the% were

necessar% to *e 'sed7 is that correct

A. !ith res&ect to this wareho'se the ,#A had

*lown it '& and then it was 'st a reeorall as to

who wo'ld et what and " *elie4e that the 0roats ot

m'ch more than we did. " think that the% e4en &'t '&



dierent check&oints where the% wo'ld wait or the

M'slims to &ass thro'h and then the% wo'ld collect it

rom them on the wa% *ack to 8ite?.

$o as ar as wea&ons are concerned the

0roats manaed to et more wea&ons rom that wareho'se.

D. !ith res&ect sir let me tr% to make m%sel

clear. !hate4er wea&ons %o' did ha4e were ke&t at

indi4id'al homes as o&&osed to one central location

This is relati4e to the mines and enerall% wea&ons.

A. Yes.

D. #ow other &re&arations that %o' made *eore

the Hcto*er 2+ *arricade were to di trenches7 correct

A. Yes. 8er% ew trenches were d' onl% aro'nd

the *arricade in order to &rotect the men who were

mannin the *arricade.

3F25.

D. And on one side o the *arricade was a

0atholic cemeter%7 isnt that correct

A. Yes.

D. Yo' d' trenches in that 0atholic cemeter%7

correct

A. #o that is not correct *eca'se 0roats were

comin d'rin the da%liht to check on it and it was

im&ossi*le to di trenches there. The trenches were

d' on the o&&osite side o the road.

D. id %o' 'se an% &art o the 0atholic cemeter%

or &rotection and as &art o this *arricade

A. " dont know *eca'se " was not at the

*arricade. " onl% know that no trenches were d' in

the 0atholic cemeter%. That was im&ossi*le.

D. $ir let me ask %o' this: The men at the

*arricade rom %o'r 4illae were oined *% other

4illaers to hel& man the *arricade7 isnt that

correct



A. Hnl% the &eo&le rom o'r 4illae were there

there were no others *'t other &eo&le came or

&rotection that is rom other 4illaes.

D. "m sorr% ma%*e "m con'sed. Hther &eo&le

did come rom other 4illaes or K&rotectionK "s

that the word %o' 'sed

A. Yes. @eo&le came rom the 4illae o

3F2F.

8rho4ine as minor assistance or the most &art to

'st &rotect the 4illae itsel.

D. !ere the% at the *arricade itsel sir rom

%o'r 'nderstandin

A. #o the% were not. As ar as " know the%

were not.

D. And there were a*o't 2++ other &eo&le who

came rom other 4illaes to hel& &rotect %o'rs7 is that

riht

A. #o " did not sa% 2++. -& to ;++ came rom

o'tside to hel& 's.

D. 8er% ood sir. "ll acce&t that.

These indi4id'als who came to hel& %o' also

some o them had camo'lae

A. Yes the% did.

D. And some o them were armed

A. Yes.

D. #ow contin'in alon the same lines let me

take a look &lease at e6hi*it this is in the

*'ndle ;59317 its s&eciicall% 2;I9A. "ts the &hoto

o the minaret.

M/. $TE"#: o %o' ha4e that in ront o %o'

and can the witness ha4e it

D. $ir let me irst ask %o' there a&&ears to

*e another small minaret in the &ict're on the lower

3F2I.



lethand side. !here wo'ld that minaret *e in %o'r

4illae

A. The lower minaret was on this mos<'e *'t it

was constr'cted earlier. "t was the entr%wa% to the

mos<'e. " think that there was an additional one *'t

it cannot *e seen here. "t was not another mos<'e. "t

is 'st &art o the same mos<'e.

D. All riht. The minaret that is in the

orero'nd the 4er% tall str'ct're on the to& &art

comin o't riht here (indicatin) take a look at

where "m &ointin. "m araid " cant o o4er

there a&&ear to *e some sort o micro&hones or

lo'ds&eakers. "s that what the% are

A. Yes the% are.

D. " take it rom these lo'ds&eakers do "

take it rom these lo'ds&eakers %o'r ellow M'slims

were called to &ra%er

A. Yes.

D. And was this minaret with its lo'ds&eakers

also 'sed to make anno'ncements or tell 4illaers o

&ro*lems or 0hetniks or an% other t%&e thin

A. As ar as " know the% were not.

D. !ere an% orders e4er called o't rom the

minaret

A. " ha4e not heard a*o't that either.

3F2.

D. !as the lo'ds&eaker and the minaret at the

mos<'e in Ahmici 'sed to call '&on the 0roatian &eo&le

to hand o4er their wea&ons

A. As ar as " know it was not.

D. /elati4e to an%thin %o' ma% ha4e heard as

o&&osed to what %o' %o'rsel ha4e heard with %o'r own

ears did %o' e4er hear an%one in the 4illae talk

a*o't the minaret and the lo'ds&eakers *ein 'sed or



that &artic'lar &'r&ose

A. #o " ha4e not heard a*o't that either.

D. o " take it sir that there were ste&s

leadin '& to the to& o the minaret o the mos<'e

A. Yes rom the inside.

D. !hen %o' ot to the to& how ar co'ld %o'

see rom the minaret

A. " ne4er clim*ed '& there.

D. o %o' know rom &eo&le who did what kind

o 4antae &oint or 4iew the% wo'ld ha4e

A. @ro*a*l% a ood 4iew *eca'se it was a &rett%

hih minaret *'t " dont know.

D. All riht. #ow

,-GE MAY: Mr. $tein its now hal &ast

ele4en "s that a con4enient moment

M/. $TE"#: 0ertainl%.

,-GE MAY: !ell take the *reak or

3F29.

2+ min'tes. " 4er% m'ch ho&e that this e6amination can

*e concl'ded in time.

/ecess taken at ;;.3+ a.m.

Hn res'min at ;;.52 a.m.

,-GE MAY: Mr. $tein in order to inish the

crosse6amination toda% o *oth %o' and Mr. Jo4acic we

will e6tend the sittin 'ntil hal &ast one in order

to inish.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: " necessar%.

,-GE MAY: ,'de 1enno'na adds K"

necessar%K o co'rse.

M/. $TE"#:

D. $ir aain let me oc's on the e6hi*it and on

the mos<'e.

To %o'r knowlede at an% time in Hcto*er o

;992 or thereater leadin '& to A&ril o ;993 did



an%*od% with a wea&on o an% sort clim* to the to& o

this &artic'lar minaret

A. #ot that "m aware o.

D. #ow at %o'r home did %o' kee& amm'nition

or riles

A. #o " did not.

D. 0ertainl% other indi4id'als o the TH had

amm'nition at their home7 wo'ldnt %o' aree

A. @res'ma*l% the% did.

3F3+.

D. There was no central storae location or

amm'nition7 isnt that tr'e

A. There wasnt no.

D. 0an %o' tell 's ro'hl% how m'ch amm'nition

was allotted to indi4id'als in the TH or storae at

their home

A. !ell no*od% restricted the <'antit%. The%

had onl% as m'ch amm'nition as the% co'ld et *'t the%

had 4er% little.

D. #ow accordin to %o'r testimon% %esterda%

there were F+ armed men at the *arricade and thats

s&eciicall% reerenced at the oriinal Li4enotes at

9F:. o %o' know irst rom %o'r own &ersonal 4iews

or what %o' heard how man% ro'nds o amm'nition each

one o those F+ armed men had

A. " know the% had 4er% little *eca'se had the%

had more amm'nition the% wo'ld ha4e ke&t the

*arricade the road*lock *eca'se since the% ran short

o amm'nition the% had to i4e '& *oth the *arricade

and &art o the 4illae.

D. " 'nderstood and that was %o'r testimon%

%esterda%. 1't m% <'estion is sir do %o' know rom

an% inormation %o' recei4ed how man% ro'nds each

indi4id'al man carried or collecti4el% there were



a4aila*le or the men on the *arricades

3F3;.

A. ,'din *% those &eo&le who had wea&ons

there the% co'ldnt ha4e had more than two and most

" wo'ld 'ess onl% one ro'nd one maa?ine.

D. All riht. ow man% *'llets in each

maa?ine

A. !ell there were s'&&osed to *e 3+ *'llets

&er maa?ine *'t o co'rse it de&ended on how man% he

had and how man% he chared.

D. Ass'min that each indi4id'al had at least

two ro'nds or F+ *'llets and there were F+ armed men

who 'sed all o those ro'nds o amm'nition thats

ro'hl% 3.F++ *'llets *ein 'sed in the deence o this

*arricade7 correct

A. #o it is not *eca'se %o' sa% the% had two

maa?ines each *'t 4er% ew o them had two

maa?ines. The <'estion is whether the% were 'll%

loaded or not. "t is 4er% diic'lt to esta*lish.

D. 0ertainl%. " 'nderstand that. 1't we can

aree that reardless o the n'm*er o maa?ines

reardless o the n'm*er o ro'nds there were

s'icient ro'nds o amm'nition to hold the *arricade

rom the earl% mornin ho'rs o Hcto*er 2+th 'ntil

midaternoon7 correct

A. Yes tr'e. " mean 'st *arel% eno'h to hold

it %es.

3F32.

D. o %o' ha4e inormation as to how man%

mem*ers o the 8H were either wo'nded or killed d'rin

this assa'lt on the *arricade

A. " heard that a ellow rom Jiselak was

killed. " dont know how man% were wo'nded.



D. As " 'nderstand ater the *arricade was

a*andoned there were two to three ho'ses in %o'r

4illae that were *'rned and ro'hl% 2+ sta*les. "s

that correct

A. " said that two or three ho'ses had *een

*'rned and that ;+ or ;5 sta*les *'rned down.

M/. $TE"#: air eno'h. Let me t'rn %o'r

attention &lease to the ma& which we4e alread% seen

and "ll *e done with the *arricade.

$&eciicall% ma% the witness ha4e *eore him

>;55=; There are two 4ersions *oth o which ha4e

*een marked. "ts this one that "m lookin at. Lets

'st do'*lecheck that were talkin a*o't the same

thin.

or the &'r&ose o the record and ma%*e the

/eistrar can hel& 's we ha4e two >;55=; that look

identical. Ma% it &lease the 0o'rt and " dont want

to make an% con'sion a*o't this the n'm*er "4e 'st

'sed which is what we ha4e here act'all% has markins

on it so " ass'me theres a second 4ersion o this.

3F33.

!ell theres no markins on what the 'sher has.

,-GE MAY: !ell there is one marked &lan

*eca'se the witness marked a &lan %esterda%. Thats

the one %o' want him to ha4e.

M/. $TE"#: All riht 4er% ood. Ma% " see

it !ell work with this one. !o'ld %o' &'t it on the

ELMH &lease and s&eciicall% the area o section 5

D. Thats where the road*lock was sit'ated7 is

that correct sir

A. Yes.

D. !o'ld %o' take a reen &en which is *eore

%o' now reen maic marker and wo'ld %o' show 's on

>;55=; where the trenches were *% act'all% drawin a



line in reen to show the trench


D. !o'ld %o' *ear down on that so we can ha4e

it &lease " mean reall% mark it hard " can *arel%

see it.


D. !o'ld %o' &'t a KTK on to& o that 'st the

letter KTK


D. !o'ld %o' show 's aain in reen where the

*arricade was !as that n'm*er 5

,-GE MAY: #'m*er 5.

3F3.

M/. $TE"#: $trike that <'estion &lease.

D. !as there also a stone wall that was 'sed to

&rotect the TH &eo&le

A. " dont know o an% stone wall.

D. The cemeter% is the white area *elow the K5K

is it not

A. Yes.

D. Theres a wall *lockin the road and "m

sorr%. Theres a wall *etween the road and the

cemeter% is there not a stonet%&e wall

A. Yes. !ell it wasnt a wall it was a ence

and %o' co'ld see thro'h it.

D. air eno'h. !o'ld %o' &'t where that ence

is &lease with aain reen

A. (!itness com&lies) The whole cemeter% was

s'rro'nded *% that ence.

D. !o'ld %o' 'st mark to the lethand side

the letter KK or KenceK


D. Thank %o' sir. Thats all we ha4e or that

e6hi*it. #ow " wo'ld like to t'rn o'r attention



&lease to A&ril ;5 ;993.

M/. $TE"#: o " take it oin *ack to this

e6hi*it we marked do %o' want to i4e that another

identiication n'm*er eel ree.

3F35.

TE /EG"$T/A/: 32=;.

M/. $TE"#:

D. A&ril ;5 ;993 %o' testiied %esterda% that

the e4enin was 4er% <'iet a*sol'tel% alarminl%

<'iet as " 'nderstand %o'r testimon%. "s that

correct

A. " said that se4eral da%s not onl% that

e4enin onl%. " said that three or o'r da%s &rior to

the attack were <'iet.

D. Yo' &ersonall% *ecame concerned7 is that air

to sa%

A. Yes.

D. "t was %o'r testimon% that nonetheless %o'r

concern was not shared *% the rest o the comm'nit%

A. @ro*a*l%.

D. Let me i " ma% ask %o' e6c'se me let

me strike that.

!o'ld %o' &lease ha4e a4aila*le eence ;3=2

s&eciicall% and this is the statement o a'd

1er*ic "m s&eciicall% Mr. #ice &ointin to the

address

,-GE MAY: Mr. $tein dont address co'nsel

across the 0ham*er. "ts not co'rteo's. Yo' will

address the 1ench and i %o' want co'nsel to do

somethin %o' can do it thro'h the 1ench. "ts the

3F3F.

normal wa%.

M/. $TE"#: 8er% ood $ir.



D. "m s&eciicall% &ointin to &ae 5 the

o'rth 'll &arara&h and aain " think we esta*lished

this *eore *'t Mr. 1er*ic was the &rior commander o

the TH %es *eore %o'r *rother

A. Yes.

D. And he had s'*stantial militar% e6&erience

did he not

A. Thats what %o' think. " dont think so.

D. e was a ca&tain in the ,#A wasnt he

A. Yes thats what " heard *'t a reser4e one.

D. All riht. "n an% e4ent accordin to that

&artic'lar statement which is marked in e4idence and "

<'ote or %o': KHn the e4e o ;5 A&rilK "m sorr%.

KHn the e4e o the ;5 A&ril attack " was on 'ard

d't%. "t was 4er% <'iet dead calm. H'r le4el o

alertness had *een increased *% 5+ &er cent com&ared to

the niht *eore *eca'se 'namiliar 'niormed &ersons

had *een seen. Ten men were on stand*% in the lower

&art o the 4illae in addition to the 'ards and the

'ards were do'*led in the '&&er &art o the 4illae as

well.K

M% <'estion to %o' sir is: "s it air to

sa% that on the e4enin o the ;5th there was an

3F3I.

increased le4el o alertness

A. "t was accordin to what 'ad 1er*ic

stated. 1't had there *een a hiher deree o

alertness not so man% &eo&le wo'ld ha4e *een at home

and thereore killed in the mornin slain in the

mornin. $o this is 'ad 1er*ics statement and 'ad

1er*ic was not the commander at that time. "t was

Midhat 1er*ic.

D. " take it %o' &ersonall% were not on the

*arricade or either let me strike that. Thats



con'sin.

Yo' were not on &atrol on A&ril ;5th

%o'rsel

A. #o no " was at home. " had no d't% to

dischare that niht nor m% *rother M'ris nor man%

others o 's who were in their ho'ses that niht and

were thereore slain.

D. Thereore o %o'r own &ersonal knowlede

%o' dont know whether Mr. 1er*ics o*ser4ations o a

heihtened alert and an increase o 5+ &er cent are

acc'rate or not7 isnt that correct

A. Yes tr'e " ha4e no knowlede o that. "t

is his statement and " reall% eel rel'ctant to

comment on it.

D. 8er% ood. " 'st want to to'ch on this 4er%

3F3.

*riel%: There came a &oint in time on the ;Fth o

A&ril where %o' %o'rsel s'rrendered a renade to the

8H orces7 is that riht

A. Yes.

D. Yo'r *rother had also s'rrendered a renade

A. " dont know that. " did not see that *'t "

know he had a hand renade and " had a hand renade.

That was all the wea&ons that we had.

D. All riht.

M/. $TE"#: "m 'st lookin or one thin

Yo'r ono'r in m% notes.

D. The 8H soldiers who were s'rro'ndin %o'r

home s&eciicall% said somethin to %o' alon the lines

that there had *een a massacre at 'sina and at

#e?iro4ici7 isnt that correct

A. Yes.

D. Yo' were aware o those acts when the%

ha&&ened or shortl% thereater



A. " knew 4er% little a*o't it.

D. Yo' knew howe4er that there had *een 0roats

killed

A. Yes.

D. And %o' knew also that the M'slims o the

Ith 1riade had *een the ones s'&&osedl% who had done

that killin

3F39.

A. #o " didnt know who was in4ol4ed.

D. All riht. 0ertainl% %o' did know that it

was claimed that M'slims killed 0roats

A. Yes.

M/. $TE"#: " ha4e nothin 'rther.

,-GE MAY: !ell Mr. $tein " think we o'ht

to know somethin a*o't what %o'r case is a*o't

Ahmici. The witnesss e4idence is that his ho'se was

attacked and his amil% killed. " take it that that is

acce&ted "t hasnt *een challened

M/. $TE"#: "t is acce&ted that his ho'se was

attacked and that his amil% was killed. H'r &osition

on the s'*ect enerall% is that Mr. Jordic knew

nothin a*o't the attack on Ahmici had nothin to do

with its &lannin was not there and onl% learned

a*o't it ater the act.

" will also tell the 0o'rt ha4in read the

transcri&ts and the other testimon% in the other cases

its a&&arent rom those cases at least that there is

some dis&'te as to whether the 4illae was &re&ared or

not whether the 4illae was armed and deended or not

and whether or not the 4illae was act'all% the s'*ect

o a militar% action.

,-GE MAY: " &res'me its not dis&'ted that

there was some militar% action there

3F+.



M/. $TE"#: /iht.

,-GE MAY: "s it oin to *e s'ested in

this trial that there was a deence or that there

wasnt an attack *% the 8H on the 4illae

M/. $TE"#: Hh no there was a

conlaration. !ho started it who deended it

rankl% rom o'r &ers&ecti4e since we had nothin to

do with it is not larel% rele4ant. That was m% irst

answer to Yo'r ono'rs <'estion. " want to *e clear

o'r &osition is he had nothin to do with it.

Hn the other hand it wo'ld *e an a*roation

o d't% on o'r &arts to 'st let the record roll on

witho't indicatin that there are other so'rces o

e4idence which clearl% indicate this was a twosided

aair. "m not here to sa% who started or who ired

the irst wea&on or the moti4es o the &arties.

,-GE MAY: The one &iece o e4idence which

was i4en in4ol4in Mr. Jordic was the threat which

%o'll remem*er was the s'*ect o o*ection that

their ho'ses wo'ld *e *'rnt and the &eo&le wo'ld *e

killed and its alleed that this was said to *e a

messae rom ario Jordic. "s it challened that there

was s'ch a messae

M/. $TE"#: A*sol'tel% challened there was

s'ch a messae. " remem*er the collo<'% well and that

3F;.

was &art o m% res&onse to Yo'r ono'r in ar'in the

motion. !e ne4er said that. Mr. Jordic ne4er said

that nor was an%one a'thorised to sa% it in his name.

#ow there ma% *e some other e4idence a*o't

it and well challene that *'t o'r &osition is that

the threat which has *een introd'ced *% the @rosec'tor

initiall% to ha4e *een Mr. Jordics and then the

&osition chaned somewhat to *e in the name o



Mr. Jordic was neither his to i4e nor did he i4e

it nor was it a'thorised in his name.

And 'rther the reason " *ro'ht o't what "

did was that altho'h two to three homes and ten

sta*les were *'rned accordin to the witness ater

the Hcto*er attack that was the limit o that attack.

Ater the *lockade was o4er the troo&s mo4ed thro'h.


%o' ha4e 'st said that Mr. Jordic the acc'sed Jordic

was not aware *eore was not aware o what had

ha&&ened in Ahmici *'t that he learned a*o't it later

on. This is e6actl% what %o' said isnt it " noted

that &ro&erl% 0o'ld %o' tell 's when he learned a*o't

it

M/. $TE"#: " rankl% dont ha4e that

inormation o the ti& o m% head7 that is the da%

the ne6t da% or shortl% thereater. " will et that

3F2.

or %o' and re&ort *ack.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) Yo' are 4er%

coo&erati4e toda%. Toda% is rida% the last da% o

the week. Lets 'se that

M/. $TE"#: " like to think "m coo&erati4e

e4er% da%.

,-GE 1E##H-#A: ("nter&retation) Lets a4ail

o'rsel4es o this o&&ort'nit% *eca'se %o' are

e6tremel% kind and willin to coo&erate. $o %o're

oin to tell 's when he knew a*o't it and whether he

took ste&s %o' know he did an%thin accordinl%

!hen did he hear a*o't it and when he did when he

heard a*o't all these acts we ha4e 'st heard did he

take an% ste&s accordinl% !e wo'ld *e 4er% rate'l

or that in order to esta*lish the tr'th. Thank %o'.

M/. $TE"#: 8er% ood sir.



,-GE /H1"#$H#: Mr. $tein %o' said %o'r

case was that this was a twosided aair. H co'rse

o im&ortance in that is whether a &artic'lar side was

actin deensi4el% and another aressi4el%. " imaine

%o're sa%in that there is no on's on %o' to show

that.

M/. $TE"#: Yeah.

,-GE /H1"#$H#: Yo' create a do'*t a*o't

that

3F3.

M/. $TE"#: !hat "m tr%in to sa% clearl%

and not to d'ck Yo'r ono'rs <'estion is " dont

know nor does Mr. Jordic who were the aressors and

who were the deenders and at an% i4en time. The

attack went on or ho'rs. !ho ired irst we dont

know. ow the manner o deence who ot the *etter

o it we dont know nor is it im&ortant or o'r case

e6ce&t to sa% that there were accordin to other

trials in this Tri*'nal theres a lot o e4idence all

alon those lines. " ho&e not to ha4e a trial within a

trial on a deence to an action that we didnt ha4e

an%thin to do with *'t " wanted at least and "

think it was o'r d't% to show that there are two sides

to this &artic'lar stor%.

,-GE MAY: Thank %o' Mr. $tein.

Mr. Jo4acic

M/. JH8A0"0: Mr. Mik'licic.

,-GE MAY: Mr. Mik'licic " ho&e %o' too

can concl'de within the time.

M/. M"J-L"0"0: Yo'r ono'rs rest ass'red "

will inish it in time.

0rosse6amined *% Mr. Mik'licic:


D. Good aternoon Mr. Ahmic. "m Goran



Mik'licic a law%er a mem*er o the eence team

3F.

re&resentin Mr. Mario 0erke? in this case. 1eore "

ask %o' some <'estions " sho'ld like to ask %o' to

*elie4e me when " sa% that " tr'l% s%m&athise with %o'

that " do 'nderstand %o'r loss and " reall% eel sorr%

a*o't all that %o' s'ered d'rin the case in Ahmici

and the whole conlict in 1osnia.

#ow Mr. Ahmic co'ld %o' &lease tell 's

what nationalit% what citi?enshi& did %o' hold 'ntil

A&ril ;992 and that is 'ntil the da% when the /e&'*lic

o 1osniaer?eo4ina &roclaimed its so4ereint% and

inde&endence

A. Y'osla4 citi?enshi&.

D. $o %o' were a national o the $ocialist

ederal /e&'*lic o Y'osla4ia7 is it so

A. Yes.

D. !ill %o' tell 's which nationalit% which

citi?enshi& did %o' hold ater 1osniaer?eo4ina

&roclaimed its inde&endence That is ater A&ril 92.

A. The citi?enshi& o the /e&'*lic o

1osniaer?eo4ina.

D. " see. Mr. Ahmic are %o' a &ractisin

*elie4er

A. Yes.

D. At the time " mean ;992 and ;993 did %o'

&erorm an% reliio's rit'als in the mos<'e in Ahmici

3F5.

A. Yes.

D. Mr. Ahmic co'ld %o' tell 's to the *est o

%o'r recollection how man% men o %o'r ae at the

time re'larl% o to mos<'e or the &'r&ose o

reliio's ser4ice



A. " co'ld i4e %o' a &ercentae. "t co'ld *e

some 5+ or ma%*e F+ &er cent.

D. Mr. Ahmic in %o'r statement %o' testiied

that on the e4e o the e4ents on the 2+th o

Hcto*er 92 %o' said that %o'r *rother M'ris

commanded the TH in the 4illae7 is that correct

A. "t is.

D. 0an %o' then tell 's how lon was he the

commander o the TH

A. " think 'ntil the 23rd o Hcto*er 92.

D. !ill %o' &lease correct me i "m wron. "

*elie4e %o' said that he resined ater that7 is that

tr'e

A. Yes or he was dismissed. "m not <'ite

clear a*o't that.

D. o %o' &erha&s know the reasons or his

resination i.e. dismissal

A. !ell not <'ite not reall% *'t ro'hl% he

was <'ite disa&&ointed with what was oin on and he

tho'ht it was his mistake that he was res&onsi*le or

3FF.

all the damae. " *elie4e he was 4er% disa&&ointed

with what had ha&&ened.

D. o %o' know who s'cceeded him

A. Midhat 1er*ic.

D. A while ao %o' said that Midhat 1er*ic also

held that &osition in A&ril ;9937 that is at the time

o the second conlict i " ma% call it that in

Ahmici

A. Yes.

D. Mr. Ahmic is Midhat the son o 'ad 1er*ic

A. Yes.

D. !e talked a*o't this road*lock in Hcto*er 92

that had *een erected on the road oin thro'h



Ahmici. 0o'ld %o' tell 's what kind o a road is

that

A. !ell it is a reional road one co'ld sa%.

"ts not a hihwa%. "t linked 4ario's reions.

D. 0o'ld %o' tell 's which reions did that

&artic'lar road link

A. !ell East 1osnia and !est 1osnia. East with

!est 1osnia.

D. "s it tr'e that the road were reerrin to

now lookin westward comes rom Tra4nik and then one

can ollow it to ,ace

A. Yes.

3FI.

D. Mr. Ahmic tell 's do %o' know and we are

talkin a*o't the latter hal o Hcto*er 92 was

there an% ihtin aro'nd ,ace

A. Yes " know that.

D. o %o' know who &artici&ated in that

ihtin

A. Yes.

D. 0o'ld %o' tell 's

A. Yes. Those were the 1 arm% on one hand and

the 8H on one side aainst the $er*s.

D. $o is it tr'e that the 1 arm% toether with

the 8H resisted the $er* attack in ,ace

A. Yes.

D. Mr. Ahmic ,'de /o*inson asked %o' toda%

somethin a*o't "4o @a&ic. ,'st to clari% matters

'rther tell 's was Mr. "4o @a&ic one o those who

hel&ed %o' esca&e rom the ho'se in which %o' were at

the time when %o' were wo'nded

A. Yes.

D. " shall now ask %o' Mr. Ahmic to answer the

ollowin <'estions with KYesK or K#oK onl% to tr% to



o thro'h them <'ickl%.

"s it tr'e that %o' told 's that %o' were

hidin in that ditch ne6t to the road ater %o' had

manaed to esca&e rom the -&&er that is 0entral

3F.

Ahmici and %o' watched soldiers &assin *% the road

A. " did not lee 0entral Ahmici. " led rom

m% home.

D. Yes riht. 1't is it tr'e that at the time

%o' ha&&ened to see the insinia the% wore on their

'niorms

A. Yes.

D. "s it tr'e that %o' told 's that ater when

%o' were so cold and wet in the ditch ha4in s&ent

there all niht %o' ot to the cinders o a ho'se

which was still smo'lderin to et warm

A. Yes.

D. "s it tr'e that %o' told 's that rom that

ho'se %o' co'ld hear rom a near*% ho'se the 4oice o

%o'r mother

A. Yes.

D. "s it correct that %o' heard her so* and cr%

how her h's*and and children had *een killed

A. Yes.

D. "s it tr'e that %o' said there was o and

%o' co'ldnt see m'ch

A. Yes.

D. Mr. Ahmic this is the end o m%

e6amination.

Yo' mentioned that %o' were taken to the

3F9.

elementar% school in '*ra4ica toether with other

1osniaks and " want to ask %o' somethin in this



reard.

"s it tr'e that that acilit% was 'arded *%

the s&ecial 'nit 8ite?o4i Jnihts as %o' claimed in

%o'r earlier statements i4en to 0o'rt in4estiators

A. Yes.

D. Mr. Ahmic do %o' know who commanded that

s&ecial 'nit

A. The cam& commander was Anto Jrisanac a man

on the short side rather dark.

D. 1't who was the commander o 8ite?o4i

A. " *elie4e it was Jrale4ic the one that was

killed.

M/. M"J-L"0"0: ("nter&retation) Thank %o'

Mr. Ahmic.

Yo'r ono'rs " ha4e no 'rther <'estions.

,-GE MAY: An% ree6amination

M/. #"0E: ,'st a ew &oints.

/ee6amined *% Mr. #ice:

D. Yo' were asked a*o't the n'm*er o wea&ons

held *% the Territorial eence in Ahmici. 1't leadin

'& to A&ril ;993 what sort o le4el o arms was held

within the 4illae 0an %o' hel& 's

A. -& to A&ril ;993 there were not man% wea&ons

3F5+.

*eca'se the &eo&le who had one rom the Territorial

eence and entered the arm% o 1osnia and er?eo4ina

where *attalions were set '& were now in a dierent

sit'ation. The% had to o to the near*% war theatres

aainst the $er*s in 1osnia and er?eo4ina in 8lasic

or in 8isoko so that we were m'ch weaker in the &eriod

'& to A&ril ;992 as reards wea&ons and amm'nition.

D. The translation came as K;992K *'t did %o'

mean '& to ;993

A. Yes. " think there were ewer and ewer



wea&ons *eca'se the &eo&le and the wea&ons the% had

the% had to take the wea&ons to the ront lines and

the wea&ons were let on the deence lines acin the

$er*s.

D. Are %o' a*le to estimate at all how man%

armed men there were in Ahmici on a da% or on a niht

in March or A&ril o ;993

A. #o*od% carried wea&ons in the da%time. And

at niht &eo&le wo'ld come o't to &atrol and its

hard to estimate *'t " oten saw them &atrollin and

the% were not *i &atrols. "t was mostl% oldae

&ensioners who &atrolled *eca'se most o the %o'n

&eo&le were o'tside Ahmici at the &ositions. And

sometimes there wo'ld *e shits and when the attack

*roke o't then the %o'ner &eo&le who were killed

3F5;.

ha&&ened to *e at home *'t the% didnt ha4e their

wea&ons with them.

D. The men %o' sa% mostl% oldae &ensioners

who did &atrol what le4el o arms and amm'nition did

the% ha4e t%&icall%

A. !e miht sa% ;+ to 2+ *arrels or &ieces.

D. ,'st so " 'nderstand that *% K*arrelsK do

%o' mean somethin like a rile and do %o' mean ;+ to

2+ altoether

A. Altoether %es.

D. "n the time leadin '& to the middle o A&ril

o ;993 was there an% &lan o which %o' were aware

to attack the 8H in %o'r localit% or an%where else

M/. JH8A0"0: Yo'r ono'r (inter&retation) "

o*ect to this <'estion. "t seems to me that m%

collea'e is oin o'tside the area co4ered in the

e6amination in chie and the sco&e o the

crosse6amination.



,-GE MAY: #o.

M/. #"0E:

D. 0an %o' answer the <'estion !as there an%

&lan o which %o' were aware to attack the 8H in %o'r

localit% or an%where else in the &eriod leadin '& to

the middle o A&ril o ;993

A. " wasnt aware o an% s'ch &lan *'t that

3F52.

wo'ld not *e 4er% &ro*a*le *eca'se we had *i &ro*lems

at the lines acin the $er*s to kee& the little

territor% we held so it was a*sol'tel% im&ossi*le or

's. 1't the attacks aainst the 8H had to *e carried

o't s'ch as the% were *eca'se the 0roats started

incidents and we had to res&ond. 1't this was an

a*sol'te necessit% *eca'se i we had had an% &lans to

attack the 8H it wo'ld ha4e *een seldestr'ction on

o'r &art *eca'se we co'ldnt iht two enemies at

once. " mean we co'ldnt start a conlict with two

enemies at once.

D. "n that &eriod '& 'ntil A&ril ;993 what i

an% access did the Territorial eence ha4e to wea&ons

so that it co'ld i at all increase its le4el o

arms

A. "n that &eriod the arm% was esta*lished.

There ma% ha4e *een some channels or the s'&&l% o

wea&ons *'t " think 4er% ew wea&ons arri4ed.

D. id an% wea&ons come rom those channels to

Ahmici to %o'r knowlede

A. #o no. !e had onl% the wea&ons that we

manaed to *rin rom $limena and some &eo&le ma% ha4e

*o'ht riles on the *lack market 'st *eore the war

*ean.

D. As to the mornin itsel o the ;Fth o

3F53.



A&ril when %o' were woken '& rom %o'r ho'se did %o'

ha4e an% 4iew rom %o'r ho'se o other &arts o Ahmici

on the other side o the road

A. Yes.

D. !ere %o' either a*le to see or e4en i

a*le did %o' ha4e the time to oc's on what was

ha&&enin on the other side o the road

A. " had 4er% little time and " was lookin o't

o the window to see what was oin on.

D. id %o' see an% sins o attack *ein mo'nted

*% residents o Ahmici or *% the Territorial eence

aainst others

A. #o " didnt notice that. " was not a*le to

see that.

D. 'rin the da% that %o' s&ent in the stream

or ditch did %o' see an% sins o attack *% residents

o Ahmici or the Territorial eence on others

A. #o. " was 'na*le to see that either.

D. inall% %o'4e *een asked in res&ect o an

earlier incident a*o't the details o the road*lock *%

the cemeter% and a*o't or e6am&le the 'se o mines.

ow did this road*lock com&are i at all with

road*locks erected *% the 8H !as it similar

stroner weaker *etter armed worse armed

A. The 8H road*locks had a lot o hedehos a

3F5.

lot o mines with soldiers armed to the teeth with

machine 'n nests with s'&&ort. 1't all we had were

mines and two iron hedehos which were set '& and the

&eo&le manned the check&oint to sto& the traic and

the% d' a ew trenches at the side o the road which

" marked and that is what the road*lock was like.

M/. #"0E: Thank %o'. Thats all " wish to

ask the witness in ree6amination.



M/. $TE"#: ,'de "m not s're the 0o'rt

knows and " dont what an iron hedeho is.

,-GE MAY: Mr. Ahmic wo'ld %o' tell 's what

a hedeho is &lease

A. That is two iron &ieces o rail tracks iron

tracks. The% are 4er% hea4% and the% are &laced in

the sha&e o a cross and &'t on the road to &re4ent

4ehicles rom &assin thro'h.

,-GE MAY: Thank %o' Mr. Ahmici. That

concl'des %o'r e4idence. Thank %o' or comin aain to

the "nternational Tri*'nal to i4e e4idence. Yo' are

now released.

(The witness withdrew)

Kordic and Cerkez-Abdulah Amic-Full Testemony_EN

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Transcript of Kordic and Cerkez-Abdulah Amic-Full Testemony_EN