Junior Air Reserve - 23 Jan 1936

TO PROMOTE NATIONAL DEFENSE BYORGANIZING THE JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

HEARINGSBEYORN THN

COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRSHOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SEVENTY-FOURTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

ON

H. R. 4336

JANUARY 23, 1936

0

UNITED STATESGOVERNMENT PAINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON: 1936

TO PROMOTE NATIONAL DEFENSE BY ORGANIZING THEJUNIOR AIR RESERVE

THURSDAY, JANUARY 23, 1936

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS,

Washington, D. C.The committee was called to order by the Hion. John J. McSwain,

chairman (presiding), at 10:30 a. m.The CHAIRMAN. Let us come to order, please, gentlemen. This

is a joint meeting or conference called for consideration of a bill thatI have described as one to set up what is called a junior air reserve.The bill itself is H1. R. 4336 as follows:

(f. R. 4336, 74th Cong., Ist seSS]A BILL To promote national defense by organizing the Junior Air Reserve

Be it erected by the Senate and House of Represenlatire of the United Stoles ofAmerica in Congress assembled, That the Secretary of War be, and he is hereby,authorized and directed to organize a civilian component of the United StatesArmy, to be known and designated as the "Junior Air Reserve", and to establishsuch rules and regulations as he shall deem fit and proper for carrying out thepurposes and objects of this Act.

SEC. 2. That all persons between the ages of eighteen years and twenty-oneyears, of sound physical condition, and with a minimum education equivalentto at least a full high-school course, shall be eligible to be listed as cadets of theJunior Air Reserve and shall be entitled to receive such emblem or designationto wear upon the clothing as the Secretary of War may prescribe while receivingsuch course of instruction and training in aerodynamics and in the art of flyingas shall be prescribed by the Secretary of War.

Stc. 3. That the Secretary of War is authorized to use all proper means andagencies for the encouragement of said Junior Air Reserve, by detailing eitherRegular flying officers or Reserve flying officers, called to active duty, to engagein the instruction and training of cadets of the Junior Air Reserve in such privateflying schools and centers of air training as may be selected by the Secretaryof War for that purpose, where the number of cadets shall not be less than twentyand where the standards of instruction and training shall have been approvedby the Secretary of War.

SEc. 4. That the Secretary of War is further authorized to encourage the devel-opment of said Junior Air Reserve by permitting the use of such Army air fieldsfrom time to time as may not conflict with the work of the Air Corps of the Armyand further by permitting the use of airplanes, aircraft generally, and equipmentbelonging to the Air Corps of the Army, if and when, In the judgment of the Sec-retary of War, such use is wise and proper in promoting the art of flying and in thetraining of said Junior Air Reserve.

Sxc. 5. That upon the completion of suoh c urse of training as shall have beenprescribed by the Secretary qf War arfd upon the satisfactory passage of finalexamination and te*ts by u.rcte . -id Junior Air Reserve, the Secretary of Warshall issue certificates of graduation that shill evidence full membership by allsuch graduates in the Junior Air Reserve, and said graduates shall then be en-titled to wear, et pleasure, such uniform as shall be prescribed h-" the Secretaryof War, and such insignia and other designations an deco, ationo upon said uni-form or civilian clothing as the Secretary of War shall prescribe. A% such grad.

2 JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

uates of the training prescribed for cadets of the Junior Air Reserve shall be keptlisted as to their addresses, business occupations, and other pertinent facts sothat the same may be available on shortest notice for service in the nationaldefense in the event of a national emergency.

Stc. 6. That the Secretary of War is authorized to select each year three hun-dred of the most promising and efficient graduates of the primary instructionhereby authorized and to give said three hundred graduates instruction at anyschool or flying field of the United States Army for a period not exceeding sixmonths and then to offer at least one hundred each year of said graduates in the

primary instruction, Reserve commissions as second lieutenants in the Air Corpseserve and to call said second lieutenants to active duty as Reserve officers in

the United States Army Air Corps, for such time as the Secretary of War mayfrom time to time prescribe.

I want to welcome you gentlemen who have come here and otherswho may come hereafter in connection with this bill and the ideathat it represents. Now, let me say to all who are present that Iam not wedded to any particular feature of this bill, and we are notinviting a critical and legalistic discussion of any particular featuresof it. We are, however, inviting a sympathetic consideration of theidea, and the fundamental idea is to enlist, organize, and utilize theenthusiasm of the young manhood of the day for aviation, in orderthat it may be more available for defense in the event of a nationalemergency.

I want to recognize the presence of Maj. Gen. Oscar Westover, Chiefof the Air Corps of the Army; Brig. Gen. Harry E. Knight, G-1 ofthe General Staff; the Honorable Eugene Vidal, of the Departmentof Commerce, and of Col. J. Carroll Cone, of the Department ofCommerce, both of them being from the Bureau of Air Commerce,Mr. Vidal being Director of the Bureau of Air Commerce and ColonelCone being his assistant; Lt. Col. 11. S. Burwell, liaison officer in theG. H. Q. Air Force, representing that office, and particularly GeneralAndrews and other gentlemen whose names will appear in the recordat this point as follows:

Mr. E. W. Wiggins, Providence, R.I., commercial aviation operator;Mr. Harry H1. Blee, representing National Aeronautic Association,Air Reserves, Washington, D. C.; Mr. Henry E. Moore MariannaFla., attorney at law; Mr. C. Wylie Alien, 6750 North CampbellAvenue, Chicago Ill.; Mr. 0. P. Herbert, 83 Suffolk Lake, GardenCity, N. Y.; Mr. Louis R. Inwood, 832 Shoreham Building, Wash-ington, D. C.; Mr. B. Ii. Merchant, Washington, D. C., Air ReserveAssociation; Mr. George U. Hardin, Greenville, Pa.; Lt. Col. Fred B.Rvons, chairman, national legion committee, Military Order of theWorld War; Mr. Earl N. Findley, United States Air'Service Maga-zine; Mr. R. S. Bautelle, Bureau of Air Commerce, Washington, 1). C.;Mr. W. D. Strohmeier, Amherst College; Mr. J. B. Hartrajant, Jr.,University Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pa.; Mr. J. M. Workman,Winnsboro, S. C.; Mr. R. V. Waters, Miami, Fla.; Mr. W. D. Taylor,Baltimore, Md.; Mr. Fred Vilsmeier, Washington, D. C., PhiladelphiaRising Sun Aviation School; Mr. Floyd E. Evans, director of aviation,Lansing, Mich.; Mr. Sumnter Smith, Birmingham, Ala.; Mr. TexRankin, Portland, Oreg.; Mr. Dudley M. Steele, chairman, NationalAeronautics Commission, American'Legion; Mr. W. N. Raymond,Macon Ga .Elmer G. Myers, Raleigh, N. C.; Mr. Dexter G. Martin,Columia, A. C., Director of Aeronautics; Mr. Cyril Thompson,Chicago, Ill., United Air Lines; and Mr. Robert Wilson, Trenton,N. J., State director of aviation.

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE 6

They have been invited to register on the book on the outside tosave the time of this meeting at this time from having to give theirnames here.

Now, gentlemen, I want this meeting to be as informal as possible,and I want everybody to be perfectly free to give his full views uponthe general proposition of the best way of taking advantage of thesplendid enthusiasm that the young manhood of America have forthis art and science of aviation.

I want to say that, I have gotten, since sending out this letter about2 weeks ago, over 100 responses from those whose nenes were givento me as gentlemen having knowledge of the situation mrk this countrywith reference to aviation, both military as affects the Regular Estab-lishimiit and the Reserves in aviation, as well as the commercial in-terests in aviation. By that I mean private and private-flying schools.I have not made any effort to contact the industry, and as far as Iknow the industry is not here. Of course, if there is any one hererepresenting the industry they are perfectly welcome, as this is a wide-open meeting, but I have not contacted any one from the industry.However, I think I can see how, if this idea goes through, it will beindirectly a great help to the industry of making aircraft, it will in-crease thie demand, in my judgment, for private craft. I have notcounted the letters, but manifestly there are over 100 letters and sometelegrams in this envelope, and all of these approve the general idea,some of them in most enthusiastic terms, all except one.

There is one letter that does not approve the idea, the writer ofthis letter says not on the ground that it is not good and desirable,but he says that he thinks that other things are now more desirable,and that the more desirable should cofl first. Well, I am for all ofthese more desirable things, and we gentlemen of the committeehave done all we can to get more money for the Air Corps and moremoney to help encourage private flying and commercia flying, andwe, of this committee, are unanimous for promoting aviation in everyrespect, because we believe that the air is the first line of defense,whether the air force be based upon the ground or be based upon somefloating base like an airplane carrier. It is the air force that willmeet the first impact in the event of hostilities and will continue tomeet that impact, and may ultimately be the deciding factor. If thatbe so, then, undoubtedly, we will need in the event of anything likea major mobilization, a very large number of military pilots. Thesmall number that we have now, as we recognize, will hardly be adrop in the bucket. There will have to be thousands more in orderto meet the washing out due to conflict, and, of course, the youngermen are prepared for this better. It is not only a young man s gamebut we recognize the fact that all of us are daily becoming older, andthe youngsters now in their teens will, probably, by the time we mayhave to meet any emergency situation, be just in that maturity whenthey will be best available for military flying and for combat fighting.I want to also note the presence of two gentlemen representing theAssociation of College Flyers. I do not have the exact name of theassociation.

Mr. STROHMEIER. The National Intercollegiate Flying Club.The CHAIRMAN. The National Intercollegiate Flying Club?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir.

JUNIOR AIR RE-SERVE

The CHAIRMAN. You are from Amherst College?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. What is your friend's name who ii with you?Mr. STROHMEiER. He is Mr. Hartrajant.The CHAIRMAN. He is from where?Mr. STROmEIER. From Pennsylvania.The CHAIRMAN. From the University of Pennsylvania.MR. STROHMEIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any one else here representing this asso-ciation of intercollegiate flyers?

MR. STROIIMEIER. No, we are the only ones representing theassociation.

The CHAIRMAN. You are the only ones here?MR. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. I think that is an organization that ought to be

encouraged, and when I say encouraged I do not mean financiallyencouraged, but I mean it ought to receive the commendation of allof us who are interested in this proposition so deeply. One idea thatI have back of this is that young men of college age, from along 16 to21, could very well spend two or three of their summer vacations inone of these private flying schools in ground work, in studying thefundamental principles of aeronautics, certainly, some elementaryactual flying work, though not military formation work, it is true.They could not spend their vacations better than in that way, andit is my belief that the program contemplated here will encouragethousands of them to do it. How much better would it be for themto be doing this during their vacation than lying around some sea-shore or some mountain resort or hanging around a drug store intheir home town. How much better it would be for the boy himselfand how much his life would be wounded out by thus improving it.

Now, if you will pardon me for having one other word to say, it isthis: I visualize this proposal as having the same relation to the airforce as the R. 0. T. C. now has to the ground force, and a very goodsuggestion was made to me, that I have the wrong name for thisproposition. I am perfectly indifferent to the name. It is suggestedthat instead of calling it the "Junior Air Reserve", that it might bemore properly called the Air Training Corps or the Air TrainingReserve Corps by a more complete analogy with the Reserve Corpstraining which is going on in various schools and universities of thiscountry. We all know what magnificent work they are doing, howthey are turning out every year approximately 7,000 young secondlieutenants who will be available in the event of an emergency to helpcarry on, to go right out on the front and command platoons, and ina few years to command companies.

As each gentleman rises to discuss this I want to ask him to Fivehis name, because while I know the names of most of you, I mightmiss some of them, and I want the record to show just who speaks,because sometimes what is said is reinforced by who says it.

I am also going to include in the record these letters, and then itis my expectation to extract from some of those letters certain por-tions and extend my remarks in the Congressional Record, includingthem in there, so that the whole country can get an idea of just whatrepresentative men, college professors, heads of flying schools, Reserveofficers, and patriotic citizens generally, have to say with regard tothe general proposition. I will start off with Mr. Strohmeier.

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE a

STATEMENT Of W. D. STROHMEIER, AMHERST COLLEGE, REPRE-SENTING THE NATIONAL INTERCOLLEGIATE FLYING CLUB

The CHAIRMAN. What class are you in in Amherst College, Mr.Strohmeier?

Mr. STROHMEIER. I am a senior, sir, the class of 1936.The CHAIRMAN. A senior at Amherst College?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Tell us about your intercollegiate flying associa-

tion, and then lead from that to this proposition before us here,please, sir.

Mr. STROHMEIER. All right, sir. Last April, or before that time,as most of you know, the National Aeronautic Association gatheredtogether soine of the college flyers throughout the colleges in thecountry, and they felt that a general association of these collegeflyers would lead to a more thorough interest in college flying, feeling,I imagine, among other things, that a group of young men activelyengaged in flying would be a help to the Nation in time of war, andthat also it would be a great help to the encouragement of aviation ingeneral to have so many people, young people becoming interestedin flying. As a result in April the Nationa Intercollegiate FlyingClub was formed. This organization is made up of the regularlyorganized flying clubs that existed at the time, and each week andeach month we are getting in more colleges. One of the largestactivities of the National Intercollegiate Flying Club is to start neworganizations. One of our chief objectives is to see a flying club inevery college in the United States. As those clubs are organizedthey are brought into the National Club. It is mostly missionarywork, and so far we have been going about a year, and we have hadsome rather extraordinary results. We have started clubs in from12 to 15 colleges and students are actually flying now that neverthought of flying 2 or 3 years ago. I can state from my own experiencewhat happened at Amherst. Two years ago I was the only one in thatcollege who had any interest in flying at all. I decided that I couldmake an experiment there to see if I could get a flying club going,and actually get some of the students in the air. The result is thatsince that time we have bought two airplanes, and have turned outapproximately 20 new pilots in a college with a membership of 800.I think that shows rather conclusively that an organization like thatcan accomplish a great deal. But I can also say that there are agreat many people in the colleges today who would like to fly but whocannot because of financial difficulties. I know at Amherst, forinstance, that there are for instance, 50 or 75 students who wouldlike to fly somehow or other if they could afford to do it.

Now, my plea here, of course, is not to have this flying subsidizedfor the purpose of giving us boys an opportunity to fly. I think thatcould be tied in, however, with this problem of building up an airreserve. I think we would find that with such a provision in existencewe might very well see as mhny as 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 studentsflying on the various campasses throughout the country rather than400 or 500 as at the present time, if it is that many. Now, there area good many of them fhat can afford some of the expense incident toflying, but cannot afford all of it. I might just briefly outline whatthe National Club would feel, or how it would feel toward a proposi-

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tion like this, but first of all, before going into a discussion of that, Iwould like to say a word about the R. 0. T. C. I do not know howmany of you have read in the papers about the general student atti-tude toward the R. 0. T. C. There is a league, called the NationalStudent League, which is made up of Communists, some Socialists,and what not, who somehow or other have gotten a rather strong holdon the minds of some of the college students, and they have raisedquite a bit of objection to the R. 6. T. C. Some of their work hasbeen taken in by some of these students. I would not want to say thegeneral student attitude is adverse to the R. 0. T. C. However, Iwould say that there is an underlying objection to it. Now, if such abill were passed or proposed for work along these lines, I should notexactly suggest that it be coordinated with the R. 0. T. C. in anyway. If it is something new, I think the National Student Leagueand all of them would let it go by until they saw what it was, and thenit would be too late for them to come in and interfere, which wouldmean it would work out all right. That is just the attitude on thepart of some of these students that I would like to bring to yourattention.

Now, my idea is this: During college the students have a goodamount of leisure time, and they have. a chance during collcge--

The CHAIRMAN. They did not in my days.Mr. STROHMEIER. They have a chance during college days to take

certain courses which might be tied in with this work of the Reserve.For instance, I imagine the Army, as the Nav does in some places,couid send out instructors with a staff to coil eges where there areenough students interested in flying to institute a regular course infundamental tactics, and what not, and perhaps also provide a littleflying time, and then during the summer, as the chairman said, thestudents could go out to a regular school or something like that andpick up their flying. I feel that in this way, and this, of course, isjust sort of an outline, the students would not only be getting a gooddeal of knowledge, but they would be getting practical flying expen-ence at the same time. We would be accumulating so many newflyers that way, that in the time of emergency, we would have beenexperienced, not only just in flying, but men who have been taught.the fundamentals of military flying, not, of course, suitable to, orup k the standards of a pursuit pilot, but they could be developedmuch more quickly in that way than by generally subsidized flyingas is done in England and France. That is about all I have to say,Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. That is very fine. Do you have an R. 0. T. C.unit in your college?

Mr. S7ROHMEIER. No, sir; we do not.The CHAIRMAN. Then, let me ask you this: What arrangement is

made by the college or by the students voluntarily to obtain instruc-tions in flying?

Mr. STROBMEIER. The Amherst Flying Club is strictly a studentorganization in our case.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you get your instructions? Do you hirean instructor?

Mr. STRORMEIER. We hire an instructor and he does the instructingin a plane.

The CHAIRMAN. How many members are there in your club?

JUNIOR AM RESERVE 7

MI'. STROHMEIER. There are 72 member: in our club, Mr. Chair-man.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you study the principles of aeronautics?Mr. STROHMEIER. Very, very vaguely.The CHAIRMAN. Very vaguely?Mr. STROHMEJER. Yes, sir; since we have our own plane with

actual flying as well as the chief activities of the club. However, Ihave had contact with a lot of other flying clubs. We are the onlyone that has a plane. Most of them devote their time to activitiesin the meetings at which flying problems, aerodynamics and whatnots are discussed, and ground school course are arranged for.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, do you think that most college studentshave enough knowledge of maihenaiics to be able to at least gatherthe fundamentals of aerodynamicE and aeronautics?

Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir; I believe so.The CHAIRMAN. If they had adequate instruction and an adequate

opportunity to learn it?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir; I am convinced that they could. You

see, most of the colleges require algebra, trigonometry, and highermathematics like that as a requisite for entering.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.Mr. STROHMEIER. Which would make practically every student in

college eligible and capable of taking courses in those subjects.The CHAIRMAN. Yes.Mr. STROHMEIER. I might bring up another point that Kenyon

College out in Ohio owns its own airport, and its own airplanes, aswell as an aeronautical library and laboratory, and the college hasa regular course in aeronautics. It has a strong library associationand each year they have this course giving flying instruction, and atthe same time it 'is costing the student very little money to do it.It is giving the student very good training. That is an example ofcollege flying.

The CHAIRMAN. I wonder if some of the other members of thecommittee have not thought of some pertinent questions to ask Mr.Stroh meier.

Mr. FADDIS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Faddis.Mr. FADDIS. Speaking of this National Students League, do they

seem to have any financial backing at all in your observation?Mr. STROHMMEIER. You mean from any newspapers or something

like that?Mr. FADIJIS. No; do they have any organization that furnishes

them with money, or do they seem to have?Mr. STOU011mEIER. Not that I know of.Mr. FADDIS. They do not seem to have any funds that you know

of?Mr. STROHMETIER. I think their only funds are from dues from

ntelubers.

Mr. FADDIS. You made the observation that college students now-adays !,ave a considerable amount of leisure time, I believe.

Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir; they have.Mr. FADDIS. I would just like to make a comment based on my

own observation and on that of other Members of Congress in regardto the applicants for appointments to the Military and Naval Acad-


emy, many of whom were college students at the time: It would seemas if practically all of their time was leisure time, from the gradesthey make in their examinations laughterr.

Mr. STROTIMEIER. I do not know what to say about that. I thinkyou are right.

The CHAIUMA-N. I want to make the observation that away backyonder, in ancient days, when I was in college, we did not have verymuch leisure during the college year, but we did have that 3 monthsduring the summertime, and a lot of us ought to have improved it forourselves as well as for the sake of the country. I did not improvemy own time, then, unfortunately, and I see the mistake that I made.I want to be helpful in assisting the young men of today to use thatextra time. It would be just as restful from their ordinary studiesto devote their time to training such as this as it would be to belounging around a drug store.

Now, I am sure that my friend, Colonel Plumley, las a question, ashe is an old edueator as \vell as a business man and an able lawyer.

Mr. PLUMLEY. Mr. Strolmmeier, can you give the reporter a list ofthe institutions at which these clubs are now established?

Mr. STROHMEIER. Why, yes, sir. I could read them off.Mr. PLUMLEY. You can hand it to him.Mr. STEOHMEIER. I would say offhand, that there are about 40

flying clubs in the country.Mr. PLUMLEY. At educational institutions?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir- 40 college flying clubs.Mr. PLUMLEY. If you wouid make tip such a list and hand it to the

reporter we would be obliged to you.Mr. STROHMEIER. The colleges listed here are those where some

flying exists. Practically 'all have some form of a flying organization:Ohio State University Northwesteni UniversityUniversity of New Hampshire Columbia UniversityMassachusetts Institute of Technology University of AlabamaHoward University Boston UniversityUniversity of Detroit Catholic UniversityCase School of Applied Science Trinity CollegeBrown University University of ColoradoCornell University Rollins CollegePurdue University Lehigh UniversityCollege of Williatm and Mary Princeton UniversityDartmouth College Stanford UniversityMiddlesburg College Swarthmore CollegeNorwich University Syracuse UniversitySmith College Colgate UniversityLake Erie College for Girls University of VirginiaAmherst College Kenyon CollegeYale University Villanova CollegeNorthwestern University Bryn Mawr CollegeUniversity of Illinois Drekel Institute

Mr. DORSEY. I am wondering about this age limitation of 21 years,as provided in the bill. Would that prove to be any restriction on theactivities of these flying schools?

Mr. STROHMEIER. I think it should be raised to 22 years or 23years, because the average freshman in college is about 18 years old,or even 19, so that they are graduated when they are 23 years old or24 years old, and if the restriction was put at 21 years there would beno reason for having it 21, I do not think, since it is restricted tocollege students or something like that, but I think it would be muchmore satisfactory to make it 22 or 23.


The CHAIRMAN. I want to say that I have been urged by otherpeople to reduce it as low as 16 and to raise it as high as 24. That isa detail I am not insisting upon and probably I will be persuaded tochange it.

Mr. SCHAEFER. Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Schaefer.Mr. SCHAEFER. Did I understand you to say that there are some

students who are against the R. 0. T. C.?Mr. STROIMEIER. Yes; very definitely so.Mr. SCHAEFER. What university or college do you attend?Mr. STRORMEIER. Amherst College.Mr. SCHAEFER. That is an eastern school?Mr. STROHEMEIR. Yes, sir; it is.Mr. SCHAEFER. The information I have in the West is that enroll-

ment in the R. 0. T. C. is increasing.Mr. STRORMEIER. That may be so. I brought that out merely

to state that there is certain agitation against it, and I think for theinterest of this bill it would be well if we stayed away as much aspossible from R. 0. T. C. connection. It would go a lot further,ecause I know at Amherst there is a great deal of agitation against

the R. 0. T. C. on the part of some students.Mr. SCHAEFER. Isn't it a fact that some universities now have a

branch of aeronautics in their schools?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir. Of course, all the technological colleges

and universities, practically all of them have regular laboratoriesand courses in the aeronautical engineering.

Mr. SCHAEFER. That applies mostly to the State universities?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes. Now, some other colleges are bringing

out courses in elementary aeronautics. I just had a wire fromMiddlebury College, which is a small college up in Vermont, statingthat they are starting up a course in elementary aeronautics in theirnext semester, chiefly through their flying club. They are gettingan instructor and everything else.

Mr. SCHAEFER. Do you think it is advisable or not for all of thesecolleges to have a branch of aeronautics in their schools?

Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes; it would be very beneficial to the aviationindustry if they could get a knowledge of flying and aeronautics whilethey are in college.

Mr. FADDrs. Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Faddis.Mr. FAnryS. I just wonder if the gentleman realizes in connection

with the question of divorcing this measure from the R. 0. T. C. asmuch as possible, that this Student League will know just about asmuch about what goes on before the committee here as we do?

Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir.Mr. FADDIS. It will be up to the students interested in this matter

to conduct a campaign in order to prevent this National StudentsLeague from doing anything to destroy it. You gentlemen will haveto be on your guard in that respect.

The CHAIRMAN. Referring to the National Students League, doyou refer to an organization that had some convention, I think,during the holidays, out somewhere in Ohio, and the newspaperscarried it that they adopted a resolution pledging themselves and theirmembers not to engage in war under any circumstances?

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Mr. STROHMEIER. I am not sure whether that is the NationalStudents League.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me that crowd had the word "union"in it. Is that same sentiment taking hold among a good many collegestudents and universe students?

Mr. STROHMEIER. No; that sentiment is not widespread, but I knowthere are an awful lot of students who feel they would sign a pledgelike that.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we might as well bring all of that stuff outin the open. We have got to meet it somewhere and the Americanpeople have to decide that issue, as to whether they are going to betorpedoed by a lot of disloyal people or whether they are going tobat them right between the eyes and have the issue out. I am veryglad you mentioned that, because it is a question so subtle that wewould not know of it otherwise. Most of us have been so long outof college that a sentiment of that sort was unheard of in our day.

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the gentlemana question.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rogers.Mr. ROGERS. Is there any activity of this Student League going on

in the New England colleges?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes, sir.Mr. ROGERS. There is?Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes; both in Amherst and in Harvard. They

had quite a riot in Harvard last night. They have a riot every MayDay of sorn i kind.

Mr. TURNER. They have a socialistic club in Harvard.Mr. STROHMEIER. Yes; they do. I do not know what it is; I do

not know what its name is, but I understand they have one there.Mr. ROGERS. Do they have them in any of the other State colleges?Mr. STROHMEIER. I do not know so much about the other large

colleges.Mr. FADDIs. Do you believe the authorities of these colleges are

trying to do their part to keep it down or to discourage it among thestudents?

Mr. STROHMEJER. They are not doing anything at all.Mr. FADDIs. Are they doing more to encourage it than to dis-

courage it?Mr. STROHMEIER. As far as I can see they have a very disinterested

attitude. They shiply feel they had better step out of it. I knowthere was a petition at Amherst to call classes off the morning of MayDay so that they could have a peace demonstration, but that wasdenied, and so they had the demonstration anyway; the boys did notgo to classes.

Mr. FADDIS. They have a peace demonstration and it ends up in afree-for-all fight?

Mr. STROHMEIER. That is what it usually does; yes.The CHAIRMAN. IS there any gentleman back there who would

like to ask this most interesting young man any questions?Mr. STEELE. Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. This is Mr. Steele who heads the Coimmission on

Aeronautics of the American Legion.- Mr. STEELE. I just want to point out to you, Mr. Chairman, thatif you want full information concerning the activities of this National


Students League, and other organizations, including the one you men-tioned, Capt. Homer Chaillaux, chairman of the AmericanizationCommittee of the American Legion, at Indianapolis headquarters,has everything about it in his hands, which he will gladly furnish tothe committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Steele. Thank you very much,Mr. Strohineier. Now, what is the name of your associates?

Mr. STROHMEIER. J. B. Hartrajant.The CHAIRMAN. We will hear Mr. Hartrajant.

STATEMENT OF 3. B. HARTRAJANT, JR., UNIVERSITY OF PENN-SYLVANIA, PHILADELPHIA, PA., REPRESENTING THE NATIONALINTERCOLLEGIATE FLYING CLUB

The CHAIRMAN. You are a student at what school?Mr. HARTHAJANT. University of Pennsylvania.The CHAIRMAN. In which class?Mr. HARTRAJANT. The junior class.The Crr A . You are taking a general academic course?Mr. HARTRAJANT. No, sir; I am in the Whartbn School of Business

and Finance.The CHAIRMAN. I see.Mr. HARTRAJANT. My remarks would be very similar to Mr.

Strohmeier's. We have talked this thing over, and I think we agreein almost every detail.

The reason I arose a moment ago is that I would like to includeone thought in regard to this matter of the R. 0. T. C. wlich has notbeen previously mentioned. The University of Pennsylvania doeshave an R.O. T. C. unit. I happen to be armember of it myself. Wehave this in connection with the R. 0. T. C., the flying club. I mightpreface my remarks by saying that the flying association there hasbeen in existence for a period of 2 years. We now have 30 activeflying members, quite a few of whom are also members of the R. 0.T. C. unit, many of whom when they graduated, that is, from their4 years R. 0. T. C. work, went to summer camp up there and trans-ferred into the Air Corps Reserve. So, there is that one other factorI did wish to include in that trend of thought.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much. Let me ask you this,Mr. Hartrajant.

Mr. HARTRAJANT. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Does your university furnish a course in aero-

dynamics and aeronautics?Mr. HARTRAJANT. The Town Scientific School at the university

does offer a preliminary course in aeronautics, but we are in no wayaffiliated with the university course. We are a flying club. Thework of our club, as of Mr. Strohmeier's club, is truly a studentclub. We have meetings at which matters of aeronautics and airnavigation and those things are brought out by prominent speakersfrom time to time in the meetings to educate the pilots. I might say,also, that our unit differs from, perhaps, quite a few of the others, inthat we require all members of this flying organization to have aDepartment of Commerce student license or better, so that they areall active flyers rather than representing enthusiasts. They areactually active flyers.

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

The CHAIRMAN. Do you hire your own instructor?Mr. HARTRAJANT. Yes, sir. I night add a remark or two in that

respect. I have recently conducted a survey of all of the collegeflying activities among those which are now in existence in thecolleges and universities today. I brought it up to date withinabout some 3 or 4 months ago. I found, with the exception of threecases, all colleges operate with a commercial operator agreement, withsome commercial operator at a nearby airport where they are usuallygiven special rates for instruction by the hour or solo time by thehour. In other words, by presenting themselves in numbers, theyare able to get a little reduction in the price of the time.

Very few ships, as Mr. Strohmeier has already pointed out, are ownedby air college organizations. Their main objection is that there is a3-month period in the summer in which the ship would remaininactive.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any suggestions to make Nith referenceto this proposal of trying to develop a great reservoir of young menwho would be niore quickly available for instruction and training inmilitary flying in the event of an emergency?

Mr. HARTRAJANT. Nothing except that which has been alreadystated. I do think if I presented to the college flying clubs that thegroups would respond very enthusiastically to such a proposal. Ithink, perhaps, we can guarantee a good deal of cooperation.

The CHAIRMAN. Is membership in the R. 0. T. C. unit in youruniversity voluntary?

Mr. HARTHAJANT. It is optional.The CHAIRMAN. Optional?Mr. HARTRAJANT. Yes, sir; it is optional. It is not a land-grant

college.The CHAIRMAN. What percentage of the undergraduates are

taking R. 0. T. C. work?Mr. HARTRAJANT. We have an enrollment in the R. 0. T. C. of

around 350 or 400. I cannot tell you what the enrollment of theuniversity is.

The CAIRMAN. Don't you know how many there are in the collegeproper, in the undergraduate classes, leading to ordinary degrees?

Mr. HARTRAJANT. I am not prepared to state that, Mr. Chairman.I do not know what the enrollment of the university is at the presenttime.

The CHAIRMAN. They drill twice a week?Mr. HARTRAJANT. Yes, twice a week. The classes the first 2

years are one-class hour and the last 2 years are three-class hour'swork, plus extra time on the range, rifle work, and the summercourse, which comes during the junior year, at which time they go toregular camp.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you feel, as a college student, that thecollege students generally over the country would react to the oppor-tunity of training in the summertime with the hope of becomingrecognized as graduates of approved schools, so that they wouldbe authorized to wear some sort of wings, or insignia that would beawarded by the War Department for having finished this preliminaryground work and the elementary flying course? Also of having acertificate to that effect that they could frame and put on the wall athome, and have the privilege of wearing, if they bought it them-.

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE 1l

selves, the prescribed uniform that would naturally appeal to thepride of a young man? How do you think the young men in thecolleges wo uld react to that suggestion to use their summer vaca-tions in order to acquire that distinction and that ability?

Mr. JIARTRAJANT. From my observation, sir, I think that theenthusiasm would be very great indeed, and that if a uniform or aninsignia or anything else for flying could be put within the reach ofthe average college student, I believe he would take advantage of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions by the members of thecommittee?

Mr. RoGERs. Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rogers.Mr. ROGERS. How many members do you have in your university

flying club at the University of Pennsylvania?Mr. HARTRAJANT. Thirty active members at the present time.Mr. ROGERS. Thirty active members?Mr. HARrRAJANT. Yes, sir.Mr. DoRsEY. You have had an R. 0. T. C. unit at the University

of Pennsylvania for quite some time. What hqs been the trend inyour opinion? Has it been increasing or decreasing in membership?

Mr. HARTRAJANT. I think it has been remaining fairly steady. Ibelieve there was an increase this year, but it has not fluctuated verymuch in a number of years. They are limited to the number of menthey can take in, and they always have a surplus. It is a matter ofstriking some off of the list every year. They are just allowed tohave so many in the unit.

Mr. DoRsxy. Has there been any agitation against the R. 0. T. C.at the university?

Mr. HARTRAJANT. There have been some acts of the NationalStudents League, such as were referred to here a short time ago,but there have been no scenes of violence. As a matter of fact, therehave been several occasions when both groups, the members of theR. 0. T. C. unit and the members of the National Students Leaguehave met together and they have had informal debates on the subject.To my knowledge there have been no outbreaks there which wouldbe classed as a student riot.

Mr. DonsEY. I understand that some time ago this group had ameeting, and it finally turned into an enthusiastic defense meetingdue to the activities of some of the members of the R. 0. T. C.

Mr. HARTRAJANT. Yes, sir; that is true; and that might point out,incidentally, that is is possible to counteract some of those things.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the presence of the R. 0. T. C.may be helpful in preserving the proper sentiment, of patriotism in ourcolleges?

Mr. HARTRAeANT. I believe so; yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.Mr. SCHAEFER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask this gentleman

another question. I 1 -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Schaefer.Mr. SCHAEFER. Do you have a weekly or monthly circulation of

communistic literature in your university?Mr. HARTHAJANT. I do not believe there is -any regular periodical

circulation of their literature. There is, however, quite frequently,60"84-36------3 ..


Particularly in the summer, preceding the various rallies (hat theyold, wide distribution of various kinds of literature. It seems to be

an unfinished form, not in mimeographed form, but it is turned outin great numbers. I have checked up between the University ofPennsylvania and Columbia Associates and find that tile same formis in use in both places.

Mr. SCHAEFER. As a matter of fact, I think they are used all overthe United States, the same literature.

Mr. IIARTRAJANT. I think perhaps that is so.Mr. SCHAEFER. I would like to ask tile young man from Amherst

the same question if he would not mind answering it.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Strohmeier.Mr. STROHME!ER. The answer would be the same as Mr. Hartra-

jant's. There is no definite propaganda at regular periods.There is one other thing that has just come to my mind about this

National Students League that I would like to mention, which mightbring to your mind what they do. Several of the National StudentLeague members, 2 years ago, about 15 of them, got together and had

,a rally out between the dormiitorieast which they sang the Interna-.tionale and burned the American flig, As the result of that threeof .them were dismissed from college.., I think that will give you an.idea of what their activities are.

- The CHAIRMAN. I will not call on the official persons at the presenttime in the order of their rank, but, rather, in order to try to conven-ience them as to time. I have no doubt that Mr. Vidal is such a busyman that he would like to be heard at this time, so that if he should

* be. called back to the Department he could go.Mr. Vidal, would you mind speaking to us and to our fellow

witnesses on the general subject of trying to utilize this enthusiasmof these youngsters, of which we have already had a very slight evi-dence here this morning, in the interest of both military and com-mercial aviation.

.STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE EUGENE VIDAL, DIRECTORO..OF AIR COMMERCE, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

Mr. VIDAL. Mr. Chairman, as you k now, the activities of ourBureau are confined almost entirely to civil and ennmercial aviation,and I personally would not be as well qualified to discuss this bill asothers here, particularly those from the Air Corps. However, theAir Bureau feels that this is a splendeid step in the right direction,* and without questioning any of the details of the bill itself, we feel,thatlit night prove very, very important. We happen to be inti-mately acquainted with the attitude of the five leading foreignnations as to their military aviation at this time. Up until the last2 years thesq five leading nations were interested in quality of.aircraft, and the quality of pilots, and I think in this country upto now we have been interested in quality, and we are very proudto be able to say that the quality.of our aircraft'and of our flying

* personnel "a of a higherstanding than those in foreign nations. Rightnow, however, these five leading nations are much more interested in

*quantity, in numbers..: I think you all probably know which nationsthey are, and just the other day I was talking 'with a representative,to one'of the air ministers from abroad, and his country had just put


out an order for 1,500 planes. In fact, they are in such a hurry forthe plane equipment that they have passed up advertising for bids.They are simply negotiating the contracts and are buying the air-planes from blueprints without waiting for the performance tests.Sothat, I think not just from our interest in industry, but from anational defense standpoint, this is a good time to start in on numbers.We are, of course, directly concerned with the industry itself.

We would like to see the aviation industry rank some day as oneof the great industries in the country, and the only way that can bedone is by having more planes, more pilots, fnd more airports, andthat will come along with the quantity. So that, is why we wouilbe interested in any plan that would result in more planes and morepilots.

I would like to inject one thought without sidetracking you fromthis particular point. We have spent a lot of time and thought on thepossibilities of the Civilian Conservation Corps for developing of num-bers of both planes and pilots.

The CHAIRMAN. The possibility of using what?Mr. VIDAL. The numbers already enrolled in the Civilian Conserva-

tion Corps.The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.Mr. VIDAL. I just bring that up at this time, because we would

like at some time to be able to talk with yourself or any other memberof the committee that might be interested in what we think is a planwith merits for making the most of those several hundred thousandyoung men in adding numbers to the total pilots and planes for the'country. I am throwing that in at this time, Mr. Chairman, but Ido not care in any way to mix that up with this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to hear it. I am always willing toget new ideas.

Mr. VIDAL. We have planned it out in dollars and cents as towhat we need, and having talked with those who are very muchinterested, this and that organization, and it has a little more of acivilian touch to it than military, which is probably a good idea, it is,simply a question of taking these 1,500 camps and doing practically' what we aredoing with these, but not with the military aircraft ormilitary policy, and as you know they spend a number of millionevery year for vocational training, it is included in that program.I think you might be interested in this because your objective hereis exactly that, only you happen to be thinking of college studentsinstead of that great group in these camps which are under Federalcontrol. -

On this bill I think the word "junior" might not prove as good aword there as others. The "Junior Birdmen of America" has nowenrolled several hundred thousand youngsters, and the name of thatgroup is very attractive, "Junior Brdmen of America", but if youuse "junior" in this bill I am afraid it would run too close to thatother title. -

The CHAIRMAN. I confess I got the idea from that. I confess thatI copied that, or at least, the name came from that. My idea was theJunior Birdmen and they are to be followed by the Boy Scouts, andthe Boy Scouts followed by the high-school boys, and the college boysof this age that I am seeking to include here. in this, who are really tobecome actual flyers and others to be available either for commercialpilots or military pilots, to start away back there with them.

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

While you were speaking a moment ago, Mr. Vidal, about whatthese five other nations were doing, I wondered if you had read thearticle in December Aviation as to what Germany is doing to enlist allof her boys?

Mr. VIDAL. Yes, sir; I did.Tile CHAIRMAN. They are starting in the grammar schools to give

the same sort of instruction that our Junior Birdmen are getting, in away, and carrying right on through the grammar schools, the gym-nasium, and the university, until they are going to come out, fromthere as experts in aerodynamics, and, therefore, possibly will con-tribute to the development and great growth, and evolution of thescience and the art of aviation. That is tied up right in my mind withthis suggestion here.

Mr. N IDAL. I see.* The CHAIRMAN. At least, from what you say, we are thinking some-what along the same lines.

Mr. VIDAL. I can understand why you would like to have carriedon there, but I have been in contact with the Junior Birdmen, andwhen you see a group of youngsters around 10 or 12 years of age inthat group, maybe the title should be a little different for those from20 to 24 years of age.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not wedded to the name or insignia, exceptthe principle.

Mr. VIDAL. I do think where it reads "and centers of air training",it should be extended in a way so that the colleges would be used more.Maybe you have already had that thought. It sounds more likeprivate flying schools there and centers of training, but the word"college" Is not used there.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that is a good idea.Mr. VIDAL. If you carry it right to the colleges it might help there.Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one question.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rogers,.Mr. RoGERs. Do I understand you to sal' that there are now five

of the leading foreign nations who have discarded competitive biddingon airplanes?

Mr. VIDAL. Oh, no; it just happened that I heard this from amember of the Air Ministry from this one country. He was in theoffice 2 or 3 days ago and he told me about the same thing, about thisquick order for 1,500 airplanes, which is a good sized order for anycountry.

Mr. ROGERS. You just spoke of that as one country in five?Mr. VIDAL. Just as one, but I do know definitely that these other

nations are more interested in numbers just now. That is, they arenot stepping up development work; they are not paying much atten-tion to it. They are not waiting for these developments, but theyare going ahead, and they are only interested in numbers of aircraft.It is strange that it was not done before, because the airplane withits pilot is not much different from the infantryman with his rifle.Numbers are almost more important than quality.

Mr. ROGERS. They are doing it by negotiation rather than bycompetitive bidding?

Mr. VIDAL. Yes.Mr. SHORT. At the present time, what is the maximum total

capacity of our airplane factories in this country?


Mr. VIDAL. Of our factories?Mr. SHORT. Yes.Mr. VIDAL. I think we could supply that information to you. It

might be quite an estimate, but I think we can find out. You meanwhat it could be; the maximum?

Mr. SHORT. Yes; in case of emergency I would like to know howmany planes we could turn out in a day or a week.

Mr'. VIDAL. I would be very happy to supply you with that in-formation as quciklv as we can.

Mr. SHORT. I would like to have comparative figures over a shortperiod of years, say for 5 years.

Mr. VIDAL. We have all the figures on our airplanes built in thecountry in the last 10 ycrs, but how many could have been built, orbuilt tip to this time, we would have to chaeck that with each manu-facturer himself.

Mr. SHORT. Could you also include information that would alsoexhibit a sort of a comparative table with these five military powersabroad?

Mr. VIDAL. No, sir; I could not. I do not think there is anyonethat has been abroad to check that could give you that information.It is too difficult to get.

Mr. SHORT, To ascertain?Mr. VIDAL. Yes.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Vidal, recently, I was informed by the De-

partment of Commerce that there are 23,000 student pilot licenses inthe United States. I suppose that 23,000 must mean all those thathave been issued from the first up to the present time? It does notmean that there are 23,000 persons now seeking to learn to fly, asstudents, does it?

Mr. VIDAL. The 23,000 figure is accurate, but we have not checkedrecently, recently checked on what permits have been dropped.Now, there will be a number of those, from those where the studenthas given up his flying, but it is the largest total we have ever had.Up until about 2 years ago the numbers of pilots and planes both weredecreasing. Even though you have read considerably about thegrowth of aviation, the number of planes and pilots were actuallydecreasing.

Mr. SHORT. That is what I wanted to zet at.Mr. VIDAL. Starting about 2 years ago the curve goes up, and this

past 6 months has been the best increase we have had since 1929.The CHAIRMAN. Are you prepared now, or would you mind check-

ing, please, how many youngsters you think there are in the UnitedStates that are at the present time seeking to learn to fly or withstudent, pilot licenses?

Mr. VIDAL. Who would like to have a student license?The CHAIRMAN. Yes; say those who have this license and propose

to try to learn.Mr. V t

IDAL. Our license list of 23,000, that total is correct. We donot know whether all of those 23,000 are still flying, or not. We dida year ago, but this last year's has not been checked. There are about7,500 civilian airplanes in this country, and about 550 - f that totalare air-line planes, so-called transport planes, and theie are 14,000pilot licenses, and 600 of those are air-line pilot licenses; they arecalled S. A. T. R. licenses.

JUNIOR AIR RE.ERVE

Mr. SHORT. But, at the very time we are decreasing our number,Great Britain, Gerniany, France, Italy, Japan, and Russia areincreasing theirs?

Mr. VIDAL. No; I am tati'ing about civilian planes, not militaryplanes.

Mr. SHORT. But that is true of both military and civilian planes,isn't it?

Mr. VIDAL. I cannot speak for your military planes as well as yourArmy officers can.

Mr. WILCOX. When you referred a few moments ago to the ordersthat were being given for immediate delivery of planes, did you havereference to military planes or commercial IpIanes?

Mr. VIDAL. 'Military planes.Mr. WILCOX. Military Planes?Mr. VIDAI,. Yes.Mr. WILCOX. One nation, you say, gave an order for as many ns

1,500 planes?Mr. VIDAL. Yes; that is what was told me just 2 or 3 days ago

by a man from the Air Ministry, yes, sir.Mr. WILCoX. And the rush was so great that they waived coni-

petitive bidding on thiem?Mr. VIDAL. Yes, sir. You might cheek that. This is one person s

story, but I had already heard it though several times from othersources.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen, are there any other ques-tions? Thank you very much, Mr. Vidal.

Mr. VIDAL. I would like to leave one last thought with you, Mr.Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; certainly.\Mr. VIDAL. I would like to stress this one point, that while avia-

tion is supposed to have grown so much it has not grown so muDIC innumbers. There are still very few more planes right at this time thanthere were -1 or 5 years ago ini the United States, and very few morepilots, but there are a good many more student pilots licenses, andwe are very interested in that crop because they are the newcomers.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.Mr. ROERS. You say that the list is going up each year?Mr. VIDAL. Yes; very nicely. The past year the aircraft factories

produced and sold about 25 percent more airplanes than they did inthe year before.

.Nfr. RoGERs. And it is higher now than it has been since many yearsago?

Mr. VIDAL. I think the last better year was in 1929 or 1930. It isabout a 5-year period.

The CHAIRMA. Than you very much indeed for your statement,Mr. Vidal. Now, I happen to know that Mr. Inwood agrees withMr. Vidal, at least, in one respect. So, I will ask him to come upnow if he will, to make a statement.

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

STATEMENT OF LOUIS R. INWOOD, REPRESENTING THE AEROCLUB OF WASHINGTON, AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE INDE-PENDENT AVIATION OPERATORS OF THE UNITED STATES

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Inwood, will you give your first name?Mr. INWOOD. Louis R. Inwood.The CHAIRMAN. Whom do you represent?Mr. INWOOD. I happen to'have taken this bill up at the annual

meeting of the Aero Club of Washington, and was designated by thatbody to represent them at this hearing. I also have been requested torepresent. the president of the Independent Aviation operators of theUnited States.

The CHAIRMAN. That is Luther Parks?Mr. INWOOD. Yes, sir; Luther Parks of St. Louis. 1 agree very

thoroughly with Mr. Vidal in one respect, particularly, that what weneed is more quantity. The 5-year period that he speaks of showedquite a decline, and during that period there was one time when thetotal of civii aircraft production in the United States dropped close to300, if my memory serves me correctly. With all of the activitythroughout the world in preparing tur war which we find daily evidenceof in our newspapers, and with all of thai confusion and activity in thevarious countries of the world, v, in America, who boast that weoriginated this arm, aviation, cannot afford to lose sight of its develop-ments, and cannot afford to in aLy wt y deviate from our line progressin that respect. I feel very strongly about i his business of interestingthe youth of America in forming, or, rather, not interesting them inflying, because I think if you provided the means, there would bemore of them inimediatelv ihat would gladly take advantage of such asituation. The interest is already there. -But, unfortunately, flyingentails certain costs that at the present time have restricted itsgeneral practice throughout the United States to a considerable extent.

I want to point out to the committee that there is possibly anobligation on the part of you gentlemen of Congress to these yGung-sters as well as the youngsters' obligation or patriotism er interest inaviation to the United States. In other words, these young men arewilling to take their time, and end any risk that may possibly beinvolved, willingly and gladly, in the interest of national defense. Ibelieve that you, on your part, should make it possible, for the propergrading and selection of them by reason of education and by reasonof ability, is well warranted. I believe you should make it possible forthe young man of moderate means to pursue this aviation educationas w cll as the young man who has unlimited means to pursue it,and who is now pursuing aviation in many cases.

In the bill which we studied fairly carefully, I agree with the sug-gestion which has already been made that thie word "Junior" is notadvisable. All of you gentlemen or any of you gentlemen whohappen to have in your family youths of from IS years of age through,say, 24 years of age, now that such youth or young men, better calledrather resent being "Juniored." That age is past, and they feefperfectly capable of taking the position of senior, and I think from

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

a psychological standpoint it would be very advantageous to thepromotion of the Reserve system such as is indicated by this bill toeliminate the word "Junior" and replace it with any otler advisablename such as "Reserve Air Training Corps", for example, or anyother similar name.

In the matter of ages specified ir the bill, the bill as it now standshas the ages 18 to 21. We have heard testimony from the Inter-collegiate Flying Club of America that college boys at the presenttime somewhat exceed the age of 21, and I think it would be very wiseto change the age limit. I would suggest in that regard possibly from17 to 24, so that this group establish a spirit of esprit de corps withinthe university where those Reserve organization training groups arefostered so that they could go forward. I think, perhaps, if they weremade into commands acquiring commandership in their senior yearby diligent practice, not only in living, but by diligent studies of thevarious phases of ground training, in iation, navigation, and otheritems of that sort it would help.

If this situation as embodied in this bill meets with the approval, Ithink it ' would be well to add certain other factors. We have a situa-tion which I think there is not anyone present, in the room, evenamongst you gentlemen of the committee, or amongst the people thatare here to testify is familiar with, and that is the Reserve itself.The Reserve itself in the United States has been handicapped, as hasthe Air Corps, by lack of equipment. That applies to many of theReserve units. Some of them I am familiar with and some that Iam not. We have a gentleman present today who is more familiarwith the Reserve than myself, and I am not going to say much aboutit, but I do know in some cases they have one or two airplanes andas high as 40 or 50 reservists who would like possibly to use that air-plane over the week end, but can secure very little flying practice dueto time demand that there is on the small amount of equipment avail-able. Now, that is a very serious problem, but I do not believe thatthat problem should stop in any way the promotion of this very nec-essary step that will be very soon needed, and that is tile replacementof the Reserve. Some of the reservists are reservists from tile timeof the last war, and in time of emergency they certainly could fillexecutive positions and fill training positions totrain other men, butin an emergency it is the youth that we must look to for the actualcombat.

Much has been said at one time or another about the United Stateshaving tile finest, air-transport system in all the world. You haveheard Mr. Vidal state, and I repeat it, that that represents about 600pilots. They do not constitute a reserve, do not in any sense of theword. As to those G00 pilots on those air lines, it would probablytake longer to train men to replace the air-line pilots than it would totrain military pilots from the start. They would be needed in theservice of supply. Their number would have to be expanded tre-mendously, so they do not constitute a reserve. Well, in time ofemergency, of national emergency, what is our reserve? It is ourregular Air Service, the National Guard, and the Reserve, and fromthen on it will have to be filled in with the youth.

Now, if we provide this youth, and if we provide our NationalGuard as well as our Reserve, we have the entire system in a rounded-out unit, an adequate system of national defense. This is my belief,

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

and I cannot urge too strongly that this committee, in consideringthis proposition, not only consider this, but place at the disposal ofthe War Department, who would direct this activity in the bill,facilities, if it is necessary, to enable the War Department to assistthese young men in some way. Our neighboring nation, Canada,pays a bounty for graduate pilots. They assist them in some wayfinancially to acquire this education. To make it possible for morepeople to try, and as a consequence, they get a very, very high gradeof pilots in the long run due to selectivity, the numbers from whichthey may select.

Just a word about the past before I finish. If we had today themoney that was spent, given to foreign governments to train UnitedStates nationals in aviation, we could finance this program 10 timesover. Are we going to do the same thing again? We must takecognizance of it, and install schools or use the universities and everyother institution that is able to train pilots for vs. They are not

oing to turn out military flyers, but they are going to turn out aver who knows the difference between a tail skid and the engine,

ahd they are going to turn out a man who understands the controls,and I am very sure the Army Air Corps can takd that man who knowsthe various terms and aerodynamics, who is able to fly, and converthim into a military flyer in a very short time.

Furthermore, in the event we have no national emergency in thenear future, which praise God, I hope we won't, but if we do not haveone in the near future the Reserves of the National Guard, we willtake the graduates from this Air Corps and train them a few stepsfurther in military training and make tbeni members of it. If theycomplete that military training in a satisfactory manner and canpass all the qualifications and examinations required we would thenincrease our National Guard Reserve. I cannot urge that toostrongly on all of us who have an interest in the welfare of aviationin the United States, the development of aviation in the UnitedStates, and we want to see America stay first in aeronautical develop-ments. If anybody thinks that we have not competition on thisthey are badly mistaken.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, on this matter of the Reserves that we havenow. As I understand you, in the event of an emergency, rather thanbeing able to draft these commercial pilots now flying these transportplanes into the military service, we would not only need all of themthat we have, but we would actually need more of them to conductthe transport service that would be necessary in the event of anemergency?

Mr. INwOOD. That is an undeniable fact. Furthermore, I madeone other statement in that connection, and that is this, that itwould probably take as long, if not longer to replace that man if youtook him away from that service, to train another to properly dothat job, the service of supply flying in all kinds of weather, and soforth, it would take jutst a long'as it would take to train a military

ilot, and you have gained nothing by it.The CHAIRMAN. What is the numerical strength of the present

Air Corps Reserve?Mr. INwooD. I cannot answer that, Mr. Chairman, but there are

several gentlemen here I know who can.60864-38-4


The CHAIRMAN. Right in that connection, General Westover, canyou or Colonel Burwell tell us those figures?* General WESTOVER. Mr. Chairman, we have today 3,075 Reserve

The CHAIRMAN. In the Air Corps?General WESTOVER. In the Regular Army. That includes our

active flyer group and also the nonrated group, which numbers 548.The URHAIRMAN. I wonder where I got the idea, or is my recollec-

tion so bad, that we had only about 1,400 Reserve pilots who wouldbe available at the present time for an emergency?

General \VEsTOV' _We have about 1,439 pilots that we know arefrine-so flittIhey could go to a unit and carry on and functionin that unit. The remainder of that group of pilots our men wouldhave to take about a 3 or 4 weeks refresher course on the latest typesof equipment.

The CHAIRMAN. One other question, General, if you do not mind,while you are on your feet.

General WESTOVER. Yes.The CHAIRMAN. What part, roughly or approximately, of the

1,400 that are now capable of functioning as military pilots in theevent of emergency, are left-overs or brought over from the war-time training, and are, therefore, getting around the neighborhoodof 40 years, anyhow?

General WESTOVER'. I should say from this figure, judging fromthe readings, about 486 of them.

The CHAIRMAN'. That would leave something between 900 and1,000 younger men?

General WESTOVER. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. And are those practically all graduates of our

Air Corps Training Center?General WESTOVER. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMA i. Who have not been abl3 to get a commission

the Regular Army?General WrVSTOVEn. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Then, our air force would stand, in the event of

an emergency at the present time, as about 1,300 Air Corps officersin the Regular Army, and 1,450 Air Reserve officers ready to takethe air now and fight, and about how many in the National Guard?

Mr. INWOOD. I could not answer that, either, Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. Does anybody here know?General WESTOVER. In the neighborhood of about 320 or 325.The CHAIRMAN. All right; thank you. Then, we have, approxi-

mately, 3,000 ready to function, and a certain percentage of themwould be compelled to be kept on the ground for administrativepurposes. I do not know whether this military critic that I am goingto quote is well informed or not, but he says that in anything like amajor emergency we would need to start with 18,000 military pilots.

Mr. SCHAEFER. Where would we get the ships to fl ?The CHAIRMAN. Well, we can build ships in time otwar as fast, or

maybe faster, than we can train men to fly them.Mr. SCHAEFER. We have not suitable ships for the number of men

available today, have we?Mr. INWOOD. I take that very seriously, that statement that was

made just now. We not only need ships, but the plea I am making for


this organization is not while we possibly could not furnish the $30,000type of military craft for their use, there are some 2 or 3 thousanddollar civil craft that could adequately train potential reserves whocould later step into the Air Reserve and the National Guard shipsas they become available. We not only need materiel all of the waythrough, but we must have ships for these men. I do not believe thisjunior air reserve or whatever it is going to be called, is going to beeffective at all unless you gentlemen provide some means for these,boys to acquire this education.

The CHAIRMAN. Nov', let me ask you one other question: Are youacquainted with the fact that in Canada they furnish air reservistsinexpensive planes for their practice flying and formation flyingrather than very expensive military planes such as we undertake.tofurnish to them?, Mr. INWOOD. Oh, yes; if a group of sufficient size gets together and,wants to form a flying club they will give them an instructor annd an"airplane. Now, tlat is a civil group, and it is possible in many casesthat it is a civil airplane, but they are learning to fly just the same. "

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I am informed that the Canadian Govorn-ment furnishes its air reservists these inexpensive moths to fly with,and therefore, they furnish safe planes to the men and they ca'n btrained to be safe flyers at relatively little cost, whereas the expensiveplanes such as we undertake to furnish cost as much as, I do not know,from 8 or 10 of these moths. Are you familiar with that fact?

Mr. INWOOD. That is quite a true statement; yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Have you gentlemen any questions to ask Mr.

Inwood?Mr. WILcox. Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wilcox.Mr. WILcox. I would like to ask the gentleman what his idea

would be for the formation of these flying clubs, or these groups'whether it should be restricted to the colleges, or whether therewould be some other means for selecting these young men for training?

Mr. INWOOD. I would recommend that at least a fully accreditedhigh-school education as set forth be required.

MI-r. WILcox. I understand that, but what I am trying to get at isthis: Would the personnel be selected only from the students in eol-leges and universities, with the headquarters of each group at somecollege or university, or would you provide some other means ofselecting them in definite areas?

Mr. INwOOD. It provides in the bill for certain of the privateschools and in addition to that it ays centers of air training. Ifyoung men of proper education who will work and band together ingroups of 20 or more, as is provided in the bill at some center, suchas a municipal airport, if the interest is sufficient, and 20 is not nee-essarily the figure, but if there were sufficient interest to warrant theestabhlislunent of it that would be a training center. I do not readthe bill as necessarily restricting it to a university entirely, and I donot believe it necessarily should be, but out of that group, perhaps,you might get one or two who are competent to go on.

Mr. WILCOX. You made a statement a moment ago that interested'me very much, in which you said that young men of means wereable to fly and to provide themselves with facilities for carrying on

their studies.


Mr. INWOOD. That is right.Mr. WILCOX. I am very much interested in seeing the spirit of

Mr. McSwain's bill put into effect so as to give the young man whodoes not have means an opportunity to get this training and theexperience. Now, it occurs to me also that there are a great manyyoung men, who, through no fault of their own, are not financiallyable to provide themselves with a college education or universitytraining.

Mr. INWOOD. That is right.Mr. WILCOX. They have finished high school and they have had a

year or two of college, and they have had to retire from college, andthey would like to have this same training, but it may be that theyare located in cities where there is no college. Would it be your ideathat in centers of that sort that the young men with the necessaryeducational background and character could form themselves intosome kind of a group or club of some kind and get advantage of thissort of training?

Mr. INWOOD. Yes, very decidedly; and as I read the bill that isalready in the bill at the present time. I believe that very strongly.Furthermore, I should think it would have a beneficial effect oncertain groups, because they would probably continue ground studiesand other studies evenings and possibly fly during the week-ends andsecure further education which would be of benefit, to them as well.

Mr. WILCOX. I am sure that is Mr. McSwain's idea. I justwanted to get your reaction on that.

Mr. HARTE B. Do you believe, Mr. Inwood, that there are enoughplanes available at public expense or governmental expense for theuse of the'boys who would be enrolled in this type of undertaking?

Mr. INWOOD. I believe some progress could be made even withoutan item of public expense. I do believe it might be possible not tofully provide, but if, perhaps, this group might be able if suppliedwith equipment, might be able to supply maintenance and gasoline,or if they were supplied with gasoline and maintenance, they mightpossibly be able to supply the civil equipment. In other words, someMDR and assistance, not necessarily a program of the Government tobuy airplanes to these groups. I do not intend that, but some sim-ilarly effective means of lending slight assistance that would enablemore young men to take advantage of their desires.

Mr. lIARTER. You feel there is enough enthusiasm among theyouth of the country that if they are given help they will answer thiswhole-heartedly?

Mr. INwoon. I know there is.The CHAIRMAN. I might illustrate what I have in mind by also

saying that the proposal to utilize this enthusiasm in the interest ofaviation is similar to the old Militia or National Guard in the daysbefore the World War when National Guard organizations got nodrill pay whatsoever, no help from the Federal Government, exceptto furnish arms, w1ich sometimes were very old. Yet, the men werepatriotic enough to try to get ready to serve their country in theevent of an emergency, and I believe now without spending anymoney worth while, not to mention any great subsidy at all, we cancapitalize on the desire of these young men to know about aviationand to be able to practice it in a civil way so that they will be avail-able for any kind of an emergency, and as Mr. Inwood said such young-


sters could be very quickly converted into military pilots. As I havetried to illustrate, and I believe it is a fair comparison, at least, Ibelieve it myself, anyway, that as between a young man raised on aranch in Texas, who is also raised on the back of a horse, and another

otLng man raised on the sidewalks of New York City, whc whene gets on a horse shows he is afraid of it and holds onto the pommel

of the saddle, that the fellow from Texas will make a calvalrymanabout 10 times as quick as the other one. You will probably remem-ber when the Rough Riders were given notice by newspaper thatthey could meet General Wood and Colonel Roosevelt at San Antonioon a certain (late, they came from all parts of the West, and in 26(lays from the date of mobilization they were equipped, organized,had their own officers and were entrained and headed for the port ofembarkation in Florida, in 26 days, and those fellows were a regimentof men in less than 60 days after they had entrained, fighting.

Mr. WiLcox. They were trained in the business of fighting..Mr. DoIISEY. There are many men not equipped with the neces-

sary education to make pilots, yet,who have the mechanical ability tomake excellent flyers or do ground work.

The CHAIRMAN. In this connection we must not overlook thenecessity for ground work and instniction in the art of aerodynamics.

I am glad to see a note here stating that there has been a meetingin the city for the last 2 or 3 days of various State directors of avia-tion. I am sure that these gentlemen are carrying on aviation workin their several States in promoting aviation, in assisting and en-couraging in the improvement of landing fields, airports, and so on.I see the director from South Caiolina, Mr. Dexter Martin, is here.Are there any directors from these other States here, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. I am going to ask each of you gentlemen to make

a very brief statement if you will.Mr. MARTIN. That has been taken up with the National Associa-

tion.The CHAIRMAN. You mean this suggestion was taken up in your

association?Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.The CIIAIRMAN. Was anyone authorized to speak for the associa-

tion?Mr. MARTIN. Yes; Mr. Evans, from Michigan, and Mr. Wilson;

they were on the committee that talked that over.The CHAIRMAN. Will you come around, Mr. Evans.

STATEMENT OF FLOYD E. EVANS, DIRECTOR OF AVIATION OFTHE STATE OF MICHIGAN

Mr. EVANS. Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the committee, thisbill was taken up in quite some detail at our subcommittee meetingthe other evening, and we drafted a bill with some changes. I mightread that through hurriedly, but generally the bill is very acceptableand the principle is received very cordially and we were very enthusi-astic getting it.

This matter of the "Junior" question was taken up and it wasstated that the name might be somewhat changed to the "ReserveAir Training Corps", or something like that. We are not wedded


to that name, but the "Junior" seems to be out. In principle it isvery fine.

The age limit was again changed, as previously stated, from 17 to24 years. The rest is minor detail, and y would like to leave with youthe thought that we are very, very much in favor of the principle ofthis bill.

Speaking for myself personally, and I think that I also representthe thought of the meeting and of the other State aviation officials,we think that generally this should be more or less a continuation ofour R. 0. T. C. work and confined to college students. It is true itis not quite fair, but this is going to take some money to finance it,and we must limit it, and to start with, I believe it would be verydesirable to get what is reasonably considered a little higher typeintellectually which is the man enrolled in college, who has completed2 years of college work in an accredited university, making him theneligible for enrollment in an actual flying course.' The matter of theground school work will also be taken care of.

We are going to build up not only a perpetual young Reserve Corps,but one of the finest civilian flying organizations in the world. Weare not going to have a vocational training course. What we mustdo today is develop the prospective purchaser and user of the aircraft,the user of the air-mail service and air transport lines, and if we canget these men who are graduating from colleges educated in following,an air career through their junior and senior years by taking 50, 75or 100 hours of flying they will be qualified as pilots, and they willbe enthusiastic airmen. They are not graduating as professionalpilots. That is just one of their finishing courses. We will then beturning out graduate doctors, lawyers, engineers, professional menwho are going to be associated with others of that profession, andwe believe spread the gospel of aviation, and at the same time build-ing a perpetual young Reserve Corps in aviation.

It occurs to me that they comprise, if anything, the great majorityof graduates, outside of the young Reserve officers and commercialflyers who will use the airplanes and who will be purchasers of themfor their own pleasure and for business purposes and who will use theairplane and the transport services. May I say, Mr. Chairman, thatthe State aviation authorities are enthusiastically back of this bill. long the right line.

Tle CHAIRMAN. Are there any members of the committee whowould like to ask any questions? I

Mr. SCHAEFER. Would it be your idea to use university studentsonly?

- Mr. EvANs. Yes; because of the financial situation. I believe thismust be financed to a certain extent by the Federal Government.Students at universities who take ordinary laboratory work or any-thing else must pay a small laboratory fee, and they must pay partof the cost for these airplanes, but I believe it would have to befinanced part of the way by the Federal Government, in any eventfrom having instructors assigned there from the Army or the NationalGuard or civil instructors in aviation.* Mr. SnORT. If the Federal Government finances it we are going tt-do that with the main purpose of having a Reserve Corps there formilitary purposes rather than commercial use.


Mr. EVANS. Yes; but they go hand in hand, as a civil pilot ispotentially a military pilot.

Mr. SCHAEFER. The reason I spoke of that is I have an air field inmy city. It seems to me if we could purchase two or three planespretty cheap and have a school right at that field, I do not see whyan honor graduate student from high school should not be permittedto go out to that school and take-that course. We do not have anyState University or college in that vicinity, and yet, it seems that theseboys should have that opportunity.

Mr. EVANS. I think your idea is a splendid one, but it is a matterof the finances involved.

Mr. SCHAEFER. It would not be much expense because we have theofficers right there.

Mr. EVANS. All the Government would be doing then would bemerely putting its stamp of approval on such an operation, but Ibelieve they must go further than that. We have our flying clubsoutside of the realms of the universities particularly, and like themost of the time they are going out of existence.

Mr. MAVERICK. Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, I did not get herein time to hear the testimony of the proponents of this bill. I wouldlike to hear a discussion on this point: The Government is contin-uously asked to do what amounts to subsidizing business, and then ifwe accidentally get into that field at all we are damned for interferingwith business. In other words, if this amounts to a subsidy of theaircraft business and their commercial business, then it seems to methe usual commercial schools ought to take care of that item of cost,although I think it is a wonderful thing, and I think we will probablyneed eventually from 5 to 25 times as many flyers as we have now.However, I would like to have the witness clear that point up becausethe Democrats are especially told we are interfering with business,but it is all right when we go in and make a subsidy. However, whenwe do something, like the T. V. A., where we get a return they say,"You are running business." I would like to have you explain this.

Mr. EVANS. I believe this gentleman's idea here to establish aschool outside of the work of the universities might possibly bring upthat question. While I am inclined to think if it is confined to theuniversity strictly, it is not so inclined to stay in the commercial, itwill work to the betterment of commercial operators who are in thetraining business, because of the word-of-mouth publicity of thesestudents in the universities that they are going to bring back to theirassociates and colleagues and as a result stimulate more flying students.

Mr. SCHAEFER. As to the Parks Air College, what would be theirreaction to that proposition?

Mr. EVANS. I believe Mr. Parks would be very enthusiastic on thecollege end of it. Just what he would do outside of the actual trainingI do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. I happen to know that Mr. Parks approves of thisbill heartily. He told me so several times, and his representativewas here this morning, Mr. Inwood. He has already spoken in thevery strongest terms in favor of it. .

Mr. EvANs. Yes; he has indicated it was satisfactory outside of theuniversity.

Mr. SCHAEFER. I wanted to ask whether we could not buy two orthree thousand dollar ships down there to take care of this training,

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

rather than purchase $60,000 or $80,000 Army planes, whether wecould not purchase the cheaper type of planes for this initial work?

Mr. EIANS. Yes, sir; absolutely.Mr. INWOOD. May I just interject, in answer to another question

asked and I will say that if anybody wants to know how the UnitedStates feels on this subject, there is a syndicate that is conducting aDumber of national po Us on prominent questions, and as a result ofthat poll, 74 percent of the citizens of the United States, participatingin that poll which was conducted by the New York Herald Tribune,the results of which appeared in the Washington Post the other Sun-day, 74 percent of our citizens believe in our air defense enough theywanted to see them grow.. -Mr. EVANS. I want to emphasize two points particularly. My sug-gestion that this be confined to the university is mainly with thethought of finance. However, I think it would be splendid to go outof that if we can. h a a

Mr. SCHAEFER. I have field and an Ar pos in myand it seems a crime that we do not utilize that field for the educationof the young men in flying. Instead of the officers sitting around allday smoking they might be doing something useful.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other observations?Mr. EVANS. The second point is to emphasize Mr. Imwood's

thought, not to go to the expensive military plane, which is a fineplane for a military plane, but for this preliminary training to go tothe lighter, cheaper type of commercial plane, which is on the mar-ket now, and as compared to the warti'-ie training plane it is veryexcellent.

Mr. WIooIs. Did the Society of State Aviation officials go onrecord as saying this should not apply to anything except colleges?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.Mr. WIGGINS. That is just your individual view.Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.Mr. WIGGINS. They simply go out and hire planes that the coin-

mercial operator uses.Mr. EVANS. I think every means should be taken to utilize our

present commercial equipment as far as we can.Mr. SCHAEFER. I am interested in this bill, because I believe I have

about three or four hundred boys that wanted to enter West Pointand Annapolis. They took the examination, and evidently I havegot some pretty smart boys from the way they passed the entranceexaminations. I know those boys would be glad to get into this ifthey had an opportunity to do so, but they have not the finances togo to universities or colleges. I think 'they would make modelstudents for a proposition like this.

The CHAIRMAN. The bill does not limit it to college students, youunderstand, and I agree with you that there are lots of very, verycapable young men who have not been able to go to college, yet,they would be able by hard work to take the required course thatwould be prescribed under the direction of the War Department, andunless they came up to scratch, perhaps they could not get it, andif they did pass they would be entitled to it.a Mr. SCHAEFER. Why couldn't we put that in the bill that they havea regular physical examination like they do for NVest Point andAnnapolis?

.28

JUNIOR AIR IIRSERV

The CHAIRMAN. The bill says the War Department shall prescribeall of these regulations, and we know that the Watr Department willprescribe plenty.

Mr. DoRs:v. There are a number of requests for training to getinto the Army Air Corps by men who cannot go to college.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.Mr. DonsEy. I am wondering if any one here can give us an idea

of the number of planes in these private aeronautical schools whichcan be used for this type of training purpose?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Inwood, would you be able to approximatethat?* Mr. INWOOD. I would say throughout the country there would beat least 3,000 or more available.

Mr. WIGGINS. There would be more than that.Mr. INWOOD. More than that?Mr. WIGGINS. Yes.Mr. INWOOD. I was trying to strike a rough guess. Of the com-

mercially and privately owned planes there are possibly 5,000 planesavailable that could be used at very reasonable figures. I was notsuggesting any particular method of Government help. They mightbuy the gasoline for them, or might contribute a very small amounttoward the leasing of commercial planes. It would be very well totake into consideration the economy of leasing their available equip-ment.

Mr. EVANS. I will submit for the record our proposed draft of thisbill.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.(The proposed bill is as follows:)

H. R. 43385, AS REVIEWED BY STATZ AVIATION OrFICIALS

A BILL To promote civil aeronautics and national defense by orgalaing the Resorve Air Training Corps

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United Statesof America in Congress assembled, That the Secretary of War be, and he is hereby,authorized and directed to organize a civilian component of the United StatesArmy to be known and designated as the "Reserve Air Training Corps", and toestablish such rules and regulations as he shall deem fit and proper for carryingout the purposes and objects of this Act.

Stc. 2. That all persons between the ages of seventeen years and twenty-fouryears, of sound physical condition, and with a minimum education equivalent toat least a full hifh-school course, shall be elibible to be listed as cadets of theReserve Air Training Corps, and shall be entitled to receive such emblem ordesignation to wear upon the clothing as the Secretary of War may prescribewhile receiving such course of Instructon and training in aerodynamics and In theart of flying as shall be prescribed by the Secretary of War.

SEC. 3. That the Secretary of War Is authorized and directed to use all propermeans and agencies for the encouragement of said Reserve Air Training Corps,including the leasing or purchase of necessary equipment and facilities; also todetail either Regular flying officers or Reserve or National Guard flying officerscalled to active duty, and other necessary personnel, to engage in the Instructionand training of cadets (and repair and maintenance of equipment) of the ReserveAir Training Corps in such private flying schools, colleges, universities, and centersof air training as may be selected'by the Secretary of War for that purpose, wherethe number of cadets shall not be less than twenty and there the standards ofinstruction and training shall have been approved by the Secretary of War.

SEc. 4. That the Secretary of War is further authorized and directed to en-courage the development of said Resrrve Air Training Corps by permitting theuse of such Army air fields from time to time as may not conflict with the work

60864-8---5

80 J UIOR AIR RESERVE

of the Air Corps of the Army and further by permitting the use of airplanes, air-craft generally, and equipment belonging to the Air Corps of the Army, if andwhen, in the judgment of the Secretary of War, such use is wise and proper inpromoting the art of flying in the training of said Reserve Air Training Corpsand not in conflict with the work of the Air Corps of the Army.

Szc. 5. That upon the completion of such course of training as shall have beenprescribed by the Secretary of War and upon the satisfactory passage of finalexamination and tests by cadets of said Reserve Air Training Corps, the Secretaryof War shall Issue certificates of graduation that shall evidence full membershipby all such graduates in the Reserve Air Training Corps, and said graduates shallthen be entitled to wear such uniform as shall be prescribed by the Secretary ofWar, and such insignia and other designations and decorations upon said uniformor civilian clothing as the Secretary of War shall prescribe.

SEc. 6. That the Secretary of War is authorized to select each year the mostproficient graduates of the primary instruction hereby authorized and to offerto Maid graduates further instruction at any school or flying field of the UnitedStates Army for such period as he may deem necessary to qualify such ReserveAir Training Corps graduates for commission in the Air Reserves.

The CHAIRMAN. Isn't there someone else here who represents theseState directors of aviation?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tex Rankin, of Portland, Oreg.

STATEMENT OF TEX RANKIN, STATE DIRECTOR OF AVIATION,PORTLAND, OREG.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, Ihave been in the training end of aviation for a good many years. Ihave put through better than 3,500 students in my school. I am notsaying that for advertising purposes, because I have closed my schoolup, and I do not expect to ever run one again, but I want to say fewthings here that might help some of the fellows who have not closedup, some of them whose creditors are a little more lenient than minewere. We have been talking about this thing back and forth andsomeone has suggested that this be confined strictly to colleges.Colonel Evans, I believed, mentioned that. That is not my opinion.I believe that these students should be given some assistance by theGovernment, and that they should receive their primary training, atleast their dual training and give them a few hours solo in civilianschools, and I think those civilian schools should be approved by theDepartment of Commerce, and, possibly, by the War Department.

I believe that the method of training should be checked into verythoroughly, because I firmly believe that the majority of accidents incivilian flying in the past, and clear on back to where it started fromhas been due to lack of knowledge on the part of the pilot, and fbelieve even today that lack of knowledge of flying exists more gen-erally than it did 6, or 8, or 10 years ago. In other words, I believethat the majority of pilots today with as much as 50 hours of flyingknow a whole lot less about flying than the majority of pilots who had50 hours of flying 10 years ago.

Mr. ROGERS. YoU believe that applies to both civil flying andmilitary and naval fl ing?

Mr: RANKIN. No, I do not believe it applies to military flying,and I believe military and naval pilots do know a great deal moreabout flying at the end of 50 hours or 100 hours than they did 10years ago, or 5 years ago. They keep progressing. The point thatI am trying to bring out is this, that civilian flying expanded so

"UMIOR AR RESRRVV, 31

rapidly during the boon years of 1927, 1928, 1929, and 1930, thatpeople were teaching flying that really did not know a great dealabout it themselves.

I believe an instructor is born, you might say. He is not made.A good instructor is a mighty hard man to find. I know people whoare instructing, and who have as many as 5,000 hours of flying totheir credit, and who cannot go out and make a safe spin. I knowone chap-I got hold of one of his students, when the Departmentof Commerce put in this 50-hour requirement for private pilots,which, understand, I think was the finest thing that has ever happenedbecause it has already saved many lives, but I got hold of one ofthose students. He was a student no more, because he had had 200or 300 hours flying, and the man had never had a spin. He hadnever had any stalls, and he had never had any advance maneuversof any kind, and when I took him up to teach spins which was anew requirement, had he been alone, he would have spun right onto the ground, he never would have come out. I think it was amighty fine thing that the Department of Commerce brought outthat requirement when they did.

But, I believe this, that in developing this new idea, which isundoubtedly a splendid idea, that we ought to be very careful ofthe type of instruction that these youngsters get. I believe it shouldbe thorough instruction. I believe that the men who give these in-structions should themselves have an instructor's rating given by theDepartment of Commerce, in order to insure that these chaps doget good instruction. In my own school I have tried in every mannerpossible to teach these chaps to fly properly, and I believe we diddo a good job of it, because of all the students we put through there,who have flown more than 2,000,000 miles on our ships and not oneever had a fatal or either a serious accident in the solo stage or theprimary stage. It just shows that you can give safe instruction ifyou will only settle down and study it out.

That may sound boastful, but I make that assertion merely toemphasize the point of safety that is desirable. I think that if wecan get this proposition worked out so that the civilian schools thatnow exist, and many of them are splendid schools, they can have alittle help, it will help them to keep them from going broke, and intime of war we need those people, need them badly. They have theequipment, they have the instructors, and they have everything thatis necessary, and all they need is these students, and I think that ifthe Government would subsidize these students in some way, not100 percent, by any means, but with some slight subsidy you wouldget plenty of them to take up this job of training.

I further believe that the training should be confined to studentswho have at least a high-school education. I have found that students16 or 17 years of age, in my own work, do not prove out so good. Thefellows 18, 19, or 20 years old made much better pilots than the stud-ents 16 or 17 years old. They are just a little bit too young.

I am not advocating turning over all flying instruction to civilianschools and then chasing from those civilian schools candidates forArmy or Navy trainig, because the Army and Navy have their owntype of training, and I can see that they have many problems thatthe civilian schools do not get, but I do believe that if these boysreceive their primary instructions in some of these schools in good

3UVIOR A RPAEREVE

schools, that the Army and Navy may find that many of them willbe good material for the training schools at Pensacola and KellyField. That is all I have to say.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, let me ask you this: Out of yourvast experience would you approximate the length of time, thenumber of months necessary for this course to continue through inorder to take a high-school graduate, that is, the minimum require-ment you yourself set to take an exceptionally competent high-schoolgraduate, and advance him to the point where he would be a flyerwith training and instruction in elementary aerodynamics andaeronautics so that he would be availahlA in the evetit of Amergencyfor quick training for military flying?

Mr. ANKIN. I would say this, that the first summer vacation,which I understand to be about 3 months' duration-I would recom-mend that that entire 3 months' period be given over to ground schoolinstruction the first year, and that the next 9 months be followed upby that chap with ground school instruction of an extension type;and that the next year, the second year, that he then be given hisprimary flying instruction of dual flying, about 10 hours of dualinstruction before he reaches the solo stage and approximately 2 or 3hours of solo flying; and that during all this time the extension-courseground school work be continued, with the assistance of the WarDepartment and the Air Corps furnishing suitable material, and thatthe third year he be given super-iised solo flying.

All of diat, I think, should be worked out by the Air Corps, thetype of flying, and the type of ships, and so forth. Incidentally, Ido think that there are several airplanes on the market today, atleast, two or three, that would be suitable for training of this kind-ships that would not cost over $4,000 or $5,000 apiece and that wouldbe suitable for advance training on his second or third year of training,particularly his third year.

The CHAIRMAN. So your idea is that assuming that a college boywould spend three vacations, three summer vacations, in the flyingschool, and then, during the college term of 9 months he could betaking that correspondence course in aerodynamics, and if they hada course of instruction in the college on that subject he could be takingthat there.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.The CHAIRMAN. So that at the end of the third summer in this

flying school he would be-if lie had been diligent and were naturallyadept--he would be entitled to this certificate and these wings?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir; and I would further suggest that if youfind, and if your committee finds, that it is impossible to bring outa bill that will take care of the actual flying end of it, that at leastthis idea be carried on with the flying left out of it, but providingthe ground school instruction and providing a skeleton organizationfor a reserve aviation training corps, which later on could be addedto the actual flying. I think it is a splendid idea; and from thestandpoint of national defense, I know of nothing better.

The CHAIRMAN. Because, in the event of an emergency, we notonly need large numbers of pilots to fight in combat, but we needleadership, and we need men trained when on the ground to take careof the work, and the more they know about planes and about theprinciples of aerodynamics the more quickly they could be whipped

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into shape to take care of the ground work of an army or of the AirCorps, couldn't they?

Mr. RA-NIN. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions, gentlemen? I thank

you very much, indeed, Mr. Rankin.I want to call on our friend, Mr. Steele, who is chairman of the

Aeronautics Commission of the American Legion.

STATEMENT OF D. M. STEELE, CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL AERO-NAUTICS COMMISSION, AMERICAN LEGION

The CHAIRMAN. All of you gentlemen understand that this gentle-man is head of the American Legion committee on aviation appointedby the national commander. Mr. Steele resides at Los Angeles, Calif.,and he, himself, has been, since the war, an active pilot and flownhundreds of hours. He was a wartime pilot and a wartime instructor.

Mr. STEELE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, just a word before Istart to read this short letter here--a word about the words "JuniorAir Reserve." I have a boy that will soon be 18. 1 know fromexperience that he won't joiri what they call the Junior Birdmen ofAmerica, because he feels that he is just a little bit above junior. Iwould just like to go on record as agreeing with the others that theword "junior" might not be the proper word to use. I am going toread this, and then I will be glad to answer any questions. [Reading:]

The following is offered as a suggsetion in connection with the subject bill.Fundamentally, it is not believed that the best interests of national defensewould be served in any plan embodying the training of pilots which does nothave a follow-up program permitting these pilots to continue their flying. Further,it is not our belief that it is economically sound to spend a great deal of moneytraining a pilot and then to permit that pilot to go out into civilian life withoutan opportunity to carry on his flying.

Directly, therefore, with respect to the subject bill, the following is specificallysuggested:

(a) That the age limit in your bill be changed to read "from 18 to 24."(b) That all physical requirements be identical and conform to present Air

Corps regulations with respect thereto.(c) That educational requirements be reduced to the point where each appli-

cant must either have graduated from a high school or its equivalent and have asufficient number of credits to warrant his admission to college.

The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking of the Air Corps?Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.General WESTOVER. There is a minimum of 2 years of college if

you want to get in without taking the examination.. Mr. STEELE. My suggestion is that it be limited with graduationfrom a high school with" the credits equivalent necessary to get intocollege.

(d) That of those between the above-mentioned ages who by virtue of thisplan are induced to take a course in flying In schools approved under this plan bythe Air Corps be required to take a course sufficiently long to enable them toobtain a limited commercial pilots license.

(e) That upon their successful graduation and completion of this course theybe given a pair of wings by the Air Corps, together with a diploma announcingtheir successful completion of the course and permission to wear a uniform pre-scribed by the War Department.

(f) As an inducement to young men to take this flying at their own expenseand to pay for their uniform, let the following inducements be offered:

When the young man has completed his flying training let him be admitted tothe ranks of either the United States Army Resrve Corps or the National Guard,with the status of a student officer. Under the supervision of either of these two

34 -UVIOB AIR RESERVE

groups he will receive his postgraduate course in flying. During the time hereceives such postgraduate course he shall retain the status of a student officerwithout pay. As a further inducement, let it be known that at the completionof his postgraduate course in flying it will be possible for him to take an examin-ation for regular Reserve Officers, and if successful, to be given the rank of secondlieutenant and automatically passed into the United States Army Air Corps,where he will enjoy the same privileges accorded to the officers in this branch.

To offset the opposition to the use of Reserve and National Guard facilities,let me offei the following suggestion:

Civilian commercial airplanes are often flown as much as 600 and 800 hoursper year with complete safety. It is believed that the average number of hoursflown per year by either Reserve or National Guard airplanes is materially lessthan this figure. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that with the same numberof airplanes double the amount of flying could be done if the personnel wereavailable to use them. This group of young men coming in could very easilyuse these planes which are already available for Reserve and National Cuardactivities in the manner prescribed below:

Usually National Guard and Reserve activities are carried on over Saturdaysand Sundays, for the reason that most of the men in those branches are business-men. Let these young student officers be restricted to the use of these planes onTuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays of each week only. This will allow Sat-urday and Sunday for the regular groups, with Friday and Monday devoted toengine-check and airplane-inspection period.

Doubling the amount of flying will necessarily require appropriation for bothgasoline and maintenance, including additional spare parts. This should betaken into consideration, naturally, when drafting your bill.

It is not known as a fact, but it is believed that most Reserve and NationalGuard planes reach the obsolescence period without having flown over 40 per-cent of the maximum number of hours possible to fly them. In other words,instead of flying a maximum of 3,000 to 3,500 hours, they probably go out ofservice as obsolescent with a maximum of 1,200 to 1,500 hours, or in approxi-mately this proportion.

Conclusion: The above suggestions are exactly that; they are not a nationalpolicy of this commission, but if you see fit to adopt all or part of these sugges-tions it is believed that same can be formally approved by the members of thiscommission without delay.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Steele, I certainly thank you, and I believethe committee will, for these very constructive suggestions you havemade. I do not now see a single thing in your proposal that person-ally I would not approve of, and I hope that the committee will finallyprepare and report such a bill as the American Legion can approve ofand help us to put through in the interest of the national defense.

Now, I am interested in this, primarily, you might say, solely fornational defense; but, of course, these flying schools and the industrywill be an indirect beneficiary of this, just like the colleges are bene-ficiaries of the R. 0. T. C. work. Lots of colleges have been almostkept alive, have been able to have enough students there to carry on,because of the financial help that the R. 0. T. C. gave them, and Ithink in that way these flying schools have been doing, and may beable in the fature to do, a great service for the country in the nature oftraining for national defense.

Gentlemen, have you any questions to ask Mr. Steele?Mr. STEELE. I have one thought that I want to explain.The CHAIRMAN. There are some of your neighbors here, Mr.

Costello, of Hollywood, and Mr. Collins, of Fullerton.Mr. STEELE. Yes. Our National Guard and Reserve facilities-

planes stand sitting in the hangars the greater part of the week, withthe exception of Saturdays and Sundays. Many of these members ofthe National Guard and Reserve do not get sufficient opportunity touse them. We already have those planes, so why not use them tN iceas much as we do, by letting theso young fellows come in and use


them? Many of us are getting too old to continue our flying; andat the completion of their course, let these young fellows automati-cally go into the Reserve; and as they go into the Reserve and othersare moved up, why not have other young fellows come in afterwardand move up? So it keeps up, with a continual bunch of youngstersin the Air Corps Reserve. Our flying days are practically over, andthe most of us who were in the war have already reached the age wherewe could not do much as combat pilots. We might be no good forfighting. There are a few pilots in the Reserve today that wouldbe fit for combat work in the event of another war. I myself wouldnot want to go up against a youngster in combat, and I know a lot ofother- that would not want to.

The CHAMMAN. Just to emphasize again that splendid thoughtabout utilizing these planes we have. They are becoming obsoletenot only because of the number of hours they have been in the air,but because of their age and by the introduction of more recent modelsof equipment, accessories, and so forth.

Mr. STEELE. We use in the Reserve at Long Beach, Pt's with afive-cylinder motor, the cost of operation of which is practicallynegligible per hour compared to our modern bombing planes andthe higher-priced pursuit job. I do not believe that five-cylinderplanes use much more than 11 or 12 gallons of gasoline per hour. Ifwe use them for a maximum of $1 000 for training-for the trainingof these students-multiplied by the number of hours you give, thecost of the gasoline and the'spare parts would be negligible, comparedto buying new equipment, when we have this already. We can useall of those planes much more than they are now being used at verylittle additional cost.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, very much indeed, Mr. Steele. Ithink that is a very constructive suggestion. I understand you haveto take a plane now, and we thank you for attending our meeting.

Isn't there another one of the State directors of aviation presentthat would like to say a word or two to us? Mr. Martin, you havenot expressed yourself.

Mr. MARTIN. Mr. Raymond, from Georgia here, wants to talk toyou briefly if lie may.

The CHAIRMAN. ,fr. Raymond.

STATEMENT OF W±SLEY N. RAYMOND, MACON, GA.

Mr. RAYMOND. Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, I am not a Stateaviation official, and I do not know whether I am in order in beinghere. I was invited here by my friend, Mr. Martin. I have beenengaged in the aeronautical industry, and particularly airplane salesfor many years. I have been interested in the methods of manufac-ture in the industry a great deal, and that is my interest in being here.I have recently taken over the operation of the Macon Airport inMacon, Ga.. A great many of the inspectors of the Department down there are

riling around in automobiles, and they like the facilities to traveland check up on our present requirements in the way of aviationequipment and facilities. What we need is a uniform method of in-struction. It has been just recently that the Bureau of Air Commerceput out a bulletin on uniform training. Up to that time no one taught


any particular way. One instructor taught one way and anotheranother, and thus we had a great many accidents as Tex Rankin haspointed out to you.

Having traveled all over the United States, and having sold planesto a dozen of the large operators throughout the country, some of themost outstanding, I believe that if we come forward'with ground-school training and the Government subsidizes that ground-schooltraining, that that will be absolutely free to anyone and the Army AirCorps and the Reserve Corps suply the instructo's, that will be aninducement to have the young boys enroll in this school. Then, whenthey graduate from that school they can come up to the private schoolto get their training.

Right now I know we have enough planes today available to train,to give those pilots free training. There is another reason why weshould keep in mind those commercial schools, which is because ithas been the backbone of the industry. If we do not do somethingto encourage the commercial operators they are going to fall by thewayside, and many of them have fallen since 1930. We must'haveairports for the improvement of flying. Riglt now cities are facedwith the problem of maintaining those airports. The colleges havealready been given a lot of consideration, but we must keep the com-mercial activities of the municipal airport in the hands of the com-mercial operator whose equipment can qualify to conic up to theseArmy regulations which are prescribed. I believe inmediately if theplan is included to have Army supervision so that we are followingthrough from the beginning the general course or trend, we can havea bureau of maintenance that would carry on the same as they arenow keeping the airplanes in shape. Our Bureau of Commerce hasprepared plans and proper facilities to lessen the accidents amongprivate owners and air lines. Funds must be provided for this super-vision, or otherwise these accidents will continue.

When it was proposed we were going to have a school at Macon wehad something like 1,000 students that came into that area to findout about it. If they could have the funds appropriated so as toenroll these students, many of them qualified, I believe, they wouldavail themselves, and I believe there are thousands that would comein and avail themselves of that training.

Then there is another thing, and that is the matter of cost, if youwill check the statistics you will find in the last 2 years if we had notgotten two or three other small airplanes we would have been out of

usiness. It was a matter of cost in training. That is ., matter thatis going to have to be adopted.

At this time the Government, it seems to me, could organize theseground schools and support them, or several in each State, so that eachsection could be taken into it, and carry on the great work that hasbeen continued in this commercial field, using commercial airplanes.

The CHAIRMAN. You say there was a report that there would beestablished by the Government, or somebody, a school at Macon, Ga.,and you say there were 1,000 applicants?

Mr. MARTIN. That was an F. E. R. A. school, and there werethousands of students all over; every town you went to. They goall enthused about it, but the funds didn't come through. The replyfrom it was enormous.

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The CHAIRMAN. What class of young men applied for enrollment?Mr. MARTIN. Of course, there were all classes of them. I will say

that probably 25 or 30 percent of them really would have been goodmateriall-coJld have qualified. They were the high-school boys witheducation and intelligence, about 25 or possibly 30 percent that wouldhave qualified if they had gone into the school.

The CHAIRMAN. 'there was a feeling that the F. E. R. A. mightestablish such a school there?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. To give instruction and training to unemployed

youngsters like they do in the Civilian Conservation group?Mr. MIARTIN. No; an neronautical ground school, including all

branches.The CHAIRMAN. Where was tho relief factor involved in it?Mr. MARTIN. To give employment to pilots and instructors. We

had hundreds of transport pilots that can qualify that were going tobe employed.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.Mr. MARTIN. But I do not know why it did not go through.Mr. SHORT. Since the Government furnishes all the supplies and

equipment to boys who go to Annapolis and West Point and, inaddition, pays then money, don't you think it would be fair for theGovernment to take care of thcsc boys who want to avail themselvesof this training?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it would be fine if they could, before youarrive at your ultinmte results of training these efficient pilots, ofbringing them up to the point as Mr. Steel stated. Bis procedure wasexcellent, so that the class who had qualified could be put, in theReserve, and then as they moved up others could come in.

I believe according to hi, plan it would follow up very efficiently.Tile CHAiRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Martin.Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McSwain, Colonel Evans, who has already talked

to you here, is the father of that idea that Mr. Martin just spoke tovou about, of these schools subsidized by the F. E. R. A., and laterby the WV. P. A., and it is a wonderful idea.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I think so.M\ir. RAN KIN. You can get the details of it from him, because he is

the man who originated the idea.The CHAIRMAN. It is a pity we did not use it.Mr. EvANS. Under the V. E. R. A. program, in Michigan, we

organized these ground schools, with an enrollment of 2,200 students.Under the W. P. A. the restrictions are such that we must operate alittle differently because the instructors must be on relief. Under theF. E. R. A. regulations the instructors could be needy unemployed.We have the funds and we have the unemployed. It is just a matterof getting the restrictions changed with the NV. P. A. set up in order toallow us to go ahead. We are going ahead under the ruling that theymade that instructors employed in the F. E. R. A. training fromSeptember 1, 1935, may be again employed under the W. P. A.without qualifying for relief. As a result our State is the only oneable to go ahead on this program, and with little cost; if the IV. P. A.rules would let the bars down we could go ahead with this work andit would do a great deal of good. We expect to have 3,000 enrolled

65JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

this winter. We have a minor number of the lower bracket, truckdrivers, and so forth, and a tremendous number of former engineersemployed in the automobile industry. Our average enrollee is 27years old and they are high-school graduates or more.

The CHAIRMAN. That is very informative and I am glad to hearthat. Had you thought of hooking some instructions in aviation ontothis youth administration?

Mr. EVANS. That is it.The CHAIRMAN. It is just as vital to this Nation that these young

men know about, aviation, and perhaps more so, than that theyshould know about Latin, Greek, and Shakespeare.

'Mr. EvANs. That is right.The CHAIRMAN. Would the youngsters who are not able to take a

college course at their own expense be assisted as part of this youthadministration?

Mr. EVANS. We can do it very nicely.The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would work out something along that

line.Mr. EVANS. I worked it out as far as field instruction is concerned.

I see no other way, but I see it will cost something.Mr. SHORT. These instructors will be practical men or Army men,

practical men instead of brain trusters?Mr. EVANS. We have three colleges in Michigan, and, consequently,

we have a pretty good field to draw from. We can go further and tryto get aeronautical engineers who are also transport pilots, who arealso licensed, and that makes a splendid type of instructor.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Suninter Smith, State Director of Aero-nautics of Alabama.

STATEMENT OF SUMNTER SMITH, STATE DIRECTOR OFAERONAUTICS OF THE STATE ')F ALABAMA

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I am at the present time with theW. P. A. temporarily. So, with Mr. Tall in charge of the Divisionof Airways and Airports, I- have listened with a great deal of interestto the discussion this morning, and there are only one or two points Iwould like to add to it.

As a member of the National Commission of Aeronautics of theAmerican Legion, I am in hearty accord with what Mr. Steele hassaid, along with what several others have said, but there is a begin-.ning which should be put ahead of that program, and that was broughtout by Colonel Evans and others in the fundamental instruction ofthese youngsters before they actually start their flying.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean the fundamental ground instructions?Mr. SMITH. Yes, the fundamental ground instruction relating to

aviation, and, of course, the other school work.The CHAIRMAN. Aeronautics and so forth, and physics, and so

forth?Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I am particularly interested in the program

as they have it, primarily to the highway construction, the road pro-gram, the automobile program and, of course, that resolves itselfinto more or less the question of the egg and the chicken as to whichone came first. At the present time it is necessary in the interest ofaviation for all three to be cared for together. That means that we

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

must have more pilots, more planes, and more airports. One sup-plements the other. Without any one of the three of them the othertwo are not of much value. As a practical suggestion, I think thatthese ground schools as brought out by Colonel Evans are a wonderfulthing in measuring this temporary period. As to this youth adminis-tration or other activities of that nature, it is a splendid time to use thesupply of the leadership of those who have had experience in passingthose things on to the youngsters who have not the means to get itotherwise. The ground school training should be carried on throughthe high school because, as a matter of fact, I do not think we will getthe full benefit of aviation uAtil the present generation, which wasborn after thlip airplane became_ more or less common reaches maturity,because anyone who can remember when the airplane was a noveltywill always have a hesitancy of flying, thinking it is a novelty.

Along the line of suggestions of a practical nature, while it isabsolutely fair and necessary, I think, that every youth should have afair chance to get this education without regard to his means. It isnecessary to began in a small way, and to get an ultimate or a compre-hensive plan, if it is going to be successful in the long run, it is justmy personal opinion that if the R. 0. T. C. units were expanded inthe colleges where they have an aeronautical engineering course tothe extent that they would include further training in aviation, includ-ing flying training, we would be able to more or less establish a labora-tory that would indicate to us or show us which corner to take inunderstanding this.

There are two distinct types of training, although the fundamentalsmay be the same, and that is civilian flying and the milita7 flying.I do believe that the colleges should leave the actual flight training ithe preliminary trainings to the civilian schools and to private indus-try. I think that those schools approved certainly by the Bureau ofAir Commerce, and if it is then indicated that graduates of thoseschools who by further course qualify for military training theyshould be approved by the Air Corps also.

The National Guard, of course, is one of our heads, having been init for about 15 years. We are constantly getting new pilots in ourAir Corps squadron. At the present time about one-third of thepilots are wartime pilots, who, as Mr. Steele has said, are getting upinto years as far as combat flying goes. About one-third of them aremen from private schools, who received private instruction, and aboutone-third are graduates of the Air Corps Training Center. One of themost pathetic sights I know of is a youngster who has done everythinghe could to get his friends and his Congressmen and everyone else toget him into the Air Corps Training Center, who has served his yearor 18 months and gone out and has had to give up his active trainingand go back to some town where he cannot get any additional flying.He cannot get a job in the aviation industry flying, and at the pres-ent time, frankly, in a good many cases, that training is practicallylost.

The CHAIRMAN. This committee has often asserted its belief thatevery one of those youngsters ought to be in the Regular Army now.We have done our best to get them there.

Mr. SMITH. I believe in having a comprehensive plan in mind forthe ultimate achievement of the objective, and then working thatalong practical lines in a small way until we find which way is good.


If these students have preliminary training in the civilian schoolsand training in the ground work, at the same time some of them willstand out above others. If they can qualify at the end of theircollege course for advance practice and graduate courses in militaryflying, then, they can take a course in the Air Corps Training Centerjust the same as these groups do at the present time. Some of themwould eventually get into the Regular Army. Most of them wouldhave to come back to civilian status or be added to the reservoir ofpotential Air Corps officers, had the education and the other require-ments that it takes to make a first-class officer, or these men, whenthey graduated, could be shifttedl to National Giard Reserve Squad-rons, and if we had sufficient funds to give them training we wouldhave a continuing reservoir of flying officers who would he availablefor any emergency.

I do not think it is a debatable question, but it is something thatcomes up. I do not think any one of us would want to fly in a trans-port plane where the pilot was only given 4 hours flying a month, orwe would not want to ride in a Pullman car or a railroad coach if theengineer of the train only took the train out once or twice a month,but through the force of circumstances, hundreds of these reserveofficers, and up until recently a large number of the Regular Armyofficers, got practically no flying time throughout the entire year, Imean comparatively speaking. After all, it comes down to thequestion of practicability, which involves a plan of financing, and Ithink that will be a determining factor.

I am heartily in favor of the principle of the bill, Mr. Chairman,and I feel confident some way caq be worked oui to put it i ito w,'ac-tice, because that is what weneed to get-action." The CHAIRMAN. We are very much obliged, Colonel. You havecertahily given us some very constructive suggestions. As I visualizeit, not all of these young men who desire to get this training wouldbe ultimately available for commissions, either emergency commis-sions or regular commissions, but we must remember that we havegot to have noncommissioned officers, and we have got to have me-chanics, and we have got to have thousands of them.

These men that may not be available by reason of insufficienteducation, or by reason of insufficient qualities of leadership, can bevery easily whipped into shape as noncommissioned officers and asmechanics to work on the ground so that the planes and equipmentof the pilots may be in proper shape to go into the air.* It is now 1 o'clock, gentlemen. We are goig to recess until 2:30,but it is my hope that all of you will come back this afternoon, becausewe are goipg to give everyone here who has an idea and wants tooffer it forthis record, an opportunity to advance it and contribute-in that way to making more secure the cause of national defense.If any of you have to leave and you have a written statement, submitit to me or to the clerk and I will see that it is included in the printedrecord of the hearings. We will adjourn until 2:30.

(Whereupon, at 1 p. m., a recess was taken until 2:30 p. m., of thesame day.)

JUNIOR AM RESERVE 41

AFTER RECESS

The committee met at the expiration of the recess, Hon. John J:MeSwain (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now come to order.Mr. Dudley M. Steele, will you please come forward?

STATEMENT OF DUDLEY K. STEELE

Mr. STEELE. Mr. Chairman, there was some misunderstanding ofsome of the remarks that I made pertaining to the plans which I read.It appears that some of the gentlemen who were present think thathiy plan has io do only with letting these boys fly in Government-owned airplanes.

'The first part of my plan was that these boys N ere to learn to flyin commercial schools at their own expense and when and if theycompleted that commercial training at their own expense and boughttheir uniforms, let an added inducement be made so that when theyhad completed it that they be permitted the use of and be enlistedin the United States Air Corps Reserve and the National Guard asstudent officers, and then let them get their post-graudate course inthe branch of the service.

I d d not want anybody to think I was not anxious that theseboys should use commercial schools. Wherever they do their train-ing, let them use commercial schools, not let the boys get their train-ing in the Government service. And then after their training in thecommercial schools give them a post-graduate course and continuetheir flying in the branches of the service I mentioned at Governmentexpense. .T'he CHAIRMIAN. That is the way I understood you.

Mr. STEELE. I wanted to make that clear, Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. I am glad it is now perfectly plain to all.Mr. STEELE. Thank you for the opportunity of explaining it.The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ilartranft has an additiona fact lie thinks

might be valuable to the committee.

STATEMENT OF J. B. HARTRANFT

Mr. HARTRANFT. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, my addition is inthe form of reading a notation of the policies committee of the Uni-versity Flying Club which was adopted at our last conference. Ibring it up at this time because at that particular time the con-ference considered the possibility of Army and Navy training andR. O. T. C. groups. With your permission I would like to read thenotation made at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to have it.Mr. IIARTRANFT. There were two or three other things which were

suggested. I will not rea,4 the entire report but only this michwhich happens to apply here.

That the Chair consider the committee's action of passing without approvalthe suggested recommendation to back an amendment to the Air Act of 1926-

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE

That act, as you probably recall, permits the release of flyingequipment from the Army and Navy to recognize the schools andcolleges provided that such equipment shall be accounted for yearly;that cost of shipping be paid by the receiver; that the equipmentshall not be returned; that the equipment shall not be used for fly-ing, and so forth.

The committee submits the following as reasons for their action in this matter.The flying equipment is usually of service type, large, high-powered, and not

suitable for use by other than experienced pilots.Operation and maintenance costs will be prohibitive for their operation.The equipment has been declared unfit for further flying by a competent

board of survey.The advantage gained would probably be lost by provoking the military

authorities with the proposal of such a plan, and would necessitate preassigimnentof equipment before survey.

All that is with regard to the act of 1926, which was the first stepin considering a possible linking-up with the military end.

The House of Representatives bill no. 8400 and Senate no. 2992of the Seventy-third Congress, second session, were reviewed, andat that time the committee sent two of its members to briefly investi-gate the possibility of Army and Navy training to R. 0. T. C. groupsin the university and the possibility of assignment of Governmentships and/or pilots to flying groups-and recommend the appoint-ment of a committee to investigate the possibilities of these twoproposals.

That was last year. Nothing has been done about it since, butI did want to put it down in the record as to our having made effortsin that direction.

It probably was approved and submitted April 3, 1935.I mention this at this time because our organization has been

built through the efforts of many of the gentlemen all over theUnited States representing the various universities with the hopethat some day it might be used as a vehicle for such a program ashas been discussed here this morning. I would like to suggest thatpossibly we might be able to cooperate, and we are quite willing inevery way possible to turn over any information in our files to thecommittee that might be of help in connection with the collegeswhich are in existence at the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. When you furnish that information, send it tome. Thank you very much.

Mr. R. V. Waters, will you please come forward?

STATEMENT OF R. V. WATERS, SECRETARY, AIR FRONTIERDEFENSE ASSOCIATION

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Waters, are you director of aeronautics forFlorida?

Mr. WTrns. No, Mr. Chairman. My capacity here is as secre-tary, Air Frontier Defense Association. Mr. Dudley wired me tocome and help that association here. I am the aviation representa-tive of the city of Miami, however, in my local contact.

The CHAIRMAN. I did have a wire from Mr. Dudley saying thatyou would represent him. But I thought you were director ofaviation down there.


Mr. WATERS. No, sir. Major McMullen is, but it was necessaryfor him to go down to Langley Field today.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard this discussion this morning, Mr.Waters, so will you please state what your reaction to those suggestionsis?

Mr. WATERS. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the attitude and thefunction of the Air Frontier Defense Association has been to worktoward increases in all phases of the aeronautic facilities of the AirCorps and assist in any practical way we can in the increase of bases,personnel, equipment, and the like. We are, of course, naturallyinterested in this new movement because we believe it is basic in thedefinite increase of personnel. Of course, we realize that that is goingto throw into the lap of the Air Corps and the War Department a lotof new problems in the working out of a practical method of handlingit.

I am impressed by this possibility that may grow out of this move-ment that will have a very definite and favorable reaction in solvingsome of these problems that we are working on for .the expansion ofthe air force and properly equipping it.

All of us remember that prior to the World War very few Americanspaid any attention whatsoever to the extent that our armed forceswere equipped. They paid very little attention to their training orthe size of our armed force. But when war was declared and theboys were brought out from the highways and byways and broughtout of the community, off of the farms aid out of the woods, like Iwas, and brought into the Army, the Army started to equip us andto change us. And immediately our fathers anti mothers, uncles,and aunts, and other relatives and friends began to wonder whetherthe boys had blankets enough, whether they were properly clothed,whether they had arms that were equal to the arms of the othernations, whether when they met the enemy they would be on a parwith him in training and in equipment. And our home folks boughtLiberty bonds and they did everything on God's world that they couldto properly equip and contribute to the comfort and the trainingof those boys.

This movement gets under way and several hundred or severalthousand boys from all over the United States come into this picture.Every community will have a few boys in it, and the parents, therelatives, and the friends of those boys are going to begin to wonderwhat kind of equipment they' are flying, how they are taken care of,and what their background is. When they are told you have about10,000 boys and you will actually have qualified 100,000 boys to flvbut no equipment to fly in, those home folks will want to know why.

The answer is that our own air force is not properly equipped, norour National Guard, nor the Reserves. We do not have adequatefunds and we have inadequate personnel to properly operate. There-fore., this new group coming into the picture, possibly have adequateequipment.

The result is that you Congressmen will hear from the folks backhome suggesting not onl that these boys be properly equipped butthat our air force be. lF or the first time many of those people willrealize we have an inadequately equipped and manned air force.

You know as an actual fact, I dare say, that the people who areactually personally interested in aviation in the United States out of


the 130 millions is probably not more than 2 or 3 percent, and perhapsnot even that many who are personally occupied in some form ofaeronautics. It is a very small group.

If this plan comes into being it will spread that out and give a per-sonal contact either through relatives or friends throughout theUnited States. They will be interested through relatives or friendsthroughout the United States in aeronautics, in the training of theseboys and, in the training of those boys they ill become interestedin our air force and interested in seeing that it is adequately equipped.

Now, gentlemen, as to the bill as drawn, I sat in with a group ofState aviation officials and helped redraft the bill by making sug-gestions, for instance, to extending the age limit, and so on. Ifavored starting with 17, because many boys graduate from highschool at 17 years of age, and some even earlier. And it is so as notto leave-a hiatus in there and leave the the chance for him to loseinterest and so that Ike can step right into this air training and air-school work. Eighteen to twenty-four is good. I personally favor 17to 24. I concurred in the various changes that we'e imde in the bill.

I believe, Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say, except this. InMiami we have had several very definite calls for this sort of thing.One of our most prominent citizens, who was himself in the Navyduring the war, called me up one day and said, "I want to get myboy Ed in the Naval Reserve."

I said, "Has he a college education?""No; he is just out of high school anti going to college. Ile has 3

months' vacation on his hands, and I don't want him spending histime around town spending a lot of money and fooling around. Iwant him to be in training."

I said, "Ed, your boy can't get into this because he cannot meetthe requirements."

I referred him to the commanding officer of the base. lie wasactually resentful because of the fact that his boy had nothing to dofor 3 months of the year and did not have an opportunity to fly amilitary airplane and'properly qualify himself as a military aviator.

And this thing that is sought to be accomplished here, if it can beworked out in a practical way, will actually fill that very definite gap,that is, the vacation period of boys who have passed high school or areengaged in college.

I thank you very much.The CHAIRMAN.' Are there any questions, gentlemen?(No response.)Thank you very much, Mr. Waters.Is Mr. Moore, from Florida, present? (No response.)Is Mr. Allen, of Chicago, present.? (No response.)Is Mr. Heber, of Garden City, N. Y., present?

STATEMENT OF 0. P. HEBER, OF ROOSEVELT FIELD, GARDENCITY, N. Y.

The CHAIRMAN. MH. lieber, you are from Roosevelt Field, Ibelieve?

Mr. HEBER. Yes; Mr. Chairman. I am operating at RooseveltField.

The CHAIRMAN. Please tell us your views on this, if you will.


Mr. HEBER. I just want to concur in the bill, as it has been outlinedby you, sir. I also want to express Mr. Orr's opinion as particularlyin favor of the bill.

The only thing I have to add to that which has been discussedalready is the problem of the approved school in the line of thisparticular type of training.

About the 18th of November 1935, the Department of Commercesent out a memorandum to the effect that from the period of July 1,1933, to June 30, 1935, there had been in the neighborhood of some82 accidents in just general commercial flying up to the grade of theprivate licensed pilot.

The question was asked of the statistical branch of the Departmentas to whether or not any of the private schools had any of thoseaccidents specified in thai memorandum, and the reply just returnedabout 2 days ago was to the effect that none had occurred in theprivate schools. So I maintain the private schools are competentapproved units of instruction by the Department of Air Commerce.And they have done an excellent job in the past, and I see no reasonwhy they should not be given the opportunity of doing it in the future.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions? (No response.)If not, I wish to thank you very much, Mr. Heber.Is Mr. E. W. Wiggins present?Mr. WIGGINS. Yes; Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF E. W. WIGGINS, RHODE ISLAND GOVERNOR FORNATIONAL AERONAUTICS ASSOCIATION

The CHAIRMAN. This is E. W. Wiggins, Rhode Island governor forthe National Aeronautics Association, of Providence, R. I.

Mr. Wiggins, you have been here and have heard what has beensaid and are in general familiar with this proposition. We will beglad to have you express your views.

Mr. WIGGINS. Let me say first that I have talked with GovernorGreene. He is known as the flying Governor of the United States.He wanted me to express to you hi§ willingness to cooperate in everyway possible in promoting this bill. He is generally in favor of it.

I am in favor of the bill as you have it. I do think we should bringout pretty clearly one or two things. Mr. Steele had a very wellthought out program here for taking care of the student after he hadgotten a commercial license, or something to that effect. But hepoints out that up to that point the student should pay for his owntraining. It is my understanding from this bill here, particularly ifyou are talking about college students and others getting much train-Ing during the 3 months' vacation period, that there will be someprovision made for taking care of that primary instruction in thecommercial and aviation schools.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to say that my personal idea is that ifthat were expressed in the face of the law we would have difficulty'in getting it through now. MK idea is to get it through on the volun-tary basis. I believe that is the only way we can get it through rightnow. We might, after years of education, put it through on the otherbasis. But now there would be very serious opposition to increasingthe burden of the military appropriation.

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Mr. WIGGINS. How can you take care of the college students duringthe summer months if they want to go out and learn to fly? Youcannot Pu, them in the military schools then, can you? They wouldnot be mified for it. They would not take them in for a 3 months'period.

The CHAIRMAN. In a flying school?Mr. WIGGINS. In a flying school of any kind.The CHAIRMAN. I don't know exactly what you are referring to.

It would seem to me if he wanted to learn to fly and his father waswilling to pay the expense, that it might be (lone.

Mr. WIGGINS. He can do that without any bill being put throughat all.

The CHAIRMAN. However, this, it seems to me, will add an incen-tive in that lie will get this official governmental recognition of thefact that he has taken training in an approved school and will beeligible, as Mr. Steele points out, upon his finishing to apply fortraining as a student officer in either the Air Reserve or the NationalGuard.

Mr. WIGGINS. That will take care of it.The CHAIRMAN. That is the incentive held out.Mr. WIGGINS. I think there should be a distinction made between

approved schools now, as they are known, and approved schoolsunder this act by the War Department. For instance, there areseveral schools in the country now which, for various reasons, par-ticularly because of the red tape, have not applied for a license as anapproved school, which would be approved by the Department forgiving this instruction probably away ahead of some of the regularlyapproved schools now. For instance, we have two ourselves thathave as good a reputation as any school in New England. We havekept out of it because of the red tape involved. We probably havehad as good results as any of the schools Mr. Heber mentioned.I think there should be a distinction between the present approvedschools and those that will be approved by the War Departmentafterwards.

The CHAIRMAN. That distinction will be taken care of, becausethis class has to be passed upon by the War Department. Theymay or may not be by the Department of Commerce. That wouldbe up to them. We cannot legislate all of the details. We have toleave discretion somewhere. To legislate all of the details we wouldhave a bill as long as from here to the Potomac River and back.

M Mr. WIGGINS. I am interested very much in this. As I said thismorning, I do think there should be a tie-up in some way so thatthey could hire a plane from amongst the planes that are idle nowthat commercial operators own, that is, for some of this work. Thereare plenty of them, and the operators are almost dying by inches.As Mr. Angel pointed out this morning, he is out of the business,but some are still hanging on. If there could be a tie-up to buy theseplanes that are now not being used one-tenth as much as they shouldbe, it would be a great help in general.

- Aside from that I do not have any further comments to make.The CHAIrMAx. Are there any questions of Mr. Wiggins? (No

response.)We thank you very much, Mr. Wiggins. If any suggestions occur

to you please don't hesitate to let us know.


Is Mr. Meceer present? (No response.)Is Mr. Harding present? (No response.)Is Col. Fred D. Ryon, of the American Legion, present? He is a

man who has been in two wars, and I think he is ready for a third one,if it has to come. Ile has already volunteered for two.

STATEMENT OF LT. COL. FRED D. RYON

Colonel Ryox. Mr. Chairman, I listened this morning with a greatdeal of interest to what was said. I believe there is a concurrenceon one item, and I believe that is the vital item; and that is thatsomething should be done in order to give these boys opportunity toprepare themselves in case their country needs them for militaryservice. I think that is probably the point we all agree on.

The ways and means seem to be at variance. I think that is thefundamental thing. So I think the conference has gone a long way.

If you had it in your minds to prepare these young men for militaryservice, certainly the way that is indicated would be to give themmilitary training. And the way to give them that military trainingis to have the training under ihe jurisdiction of the officers of theRegular Army and the Regular Navy, because both of these serviceswill require additional aviation personnel.

I believe that in order to put the thing over it must have a popularappeal. I appreciate that our air fields and our airplanes an ourpersonnel all go together. If at the present tine our air fields and airschools are in need of help, I think we could very well prescribe thatfor 3 months the first summer these young men could be trained attheir local airport by paying a nominal amount to the person in chargeof the airport who owns the plane and gives the instruction, probablyan item of $30 for the 3 months' training per trainee. If Ile had 20trainees, that would be $600 for the summer's work.

Assuming you have 5,000 airpoFts that would give this training,with 20 men in each port, it would be a matter of $3,000,000, amatter which could be handled very nicely by the Department ofCommerce, as it would assist in saving these airports and air schoolsto the country. At the present tiie all of them are in a very pre-carious position.

After the first year a great elimination is indicated. And thatelimination rightfully takes place at that time. Then, during thesecond year-and I think 2 years is sufficient. At the end of thesecond year 5,000 trainees from the C. M. T. C. could be allocated tothis kind of work, and these 5,000 trainees would be the ones who were,Vproved from this eliminating school of the first 3 months' training.hey would be sent to fields where Regular Army officer personnel

and Regular Navy personnel is available in order to get their training,and they would be given 3 months' training in such a school under thedirection of an Army officer or officers or Navy officer or officers.And at the expiration of thht time they would be given an examina-tion and commissioned in the Air Reserve of the United States Armyof the Air Reserve of the Navy.

I say 2 years is sufficient. I think you are stressing the matter ofthe basic training rather unnecessarily. These boys want to fly.They are bright, they are young, and in most cases you will find theywill be college graduates. This work can be all given to them either


in the college in the study of aerodynamics or 3 months' work at thisprimary school. And Ibelieve sufficient work can be given therein that time to cover the groundwork.

The second year woull be training in flying. At tile end of thatyear they would be eligible, if they passed the tests under the observa-tion of tile Regular Army and Regular Navy pilots to either be washedout or commissioned in'the Air Reserve of the Army or the Navy.

It is a very simple process. I think it accomplishes all of thoseele-mentc which were brought out this morning and produces what youwant, and that is personnel for the military forces of our country.

The CHAIRMAN. Does any member of tle committee desire to'askColonel Ryon any questions? (No response.)

Thank you very much, Colonel Ryon.Is 'r. Findlev here? (No response.)Is Mr. Bartell present? (No response.)T Mr. Workman here? (No response.)

-Jr. Taylor, of Baltimore, present this afternoon? (No response.)These gentlemen were here this morning and we got their names,

but they do not seem to be present this afternoon.Mr. Billsmeyer, of Philadelphia?

STATEMENT OF FRED BIJLSMEYER

MNr. BILLSMEYER. Mr. Chairman, I have one of these approvedschools, a mechanical school in Philadelphia. I believe a bill of thistype, if it does go through, will mean that the commercial operatorwill have to get some of the business. If he does not, with what littlehe has now, and if you take some of this away from him, I guess hewill have to close up altogether.

I think some of these commercial schools and these flying fieldscould train a boy to 50 or 75 hours, and he could easily be convertedover to tile military flying later on. That is my idea of it.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of a school do you conduct?Mr. BILLS MEYER. A mechanical school.The CHAIRMAN. A school for mechanics in aviation?MNr. BILLSMEYER. Airplanes, yes, sir; airplanes and engines.The CHIAIRMIA-. And that alone?Mr. BILSMEYER. We have the flying also, but we specialize in

mechanics.The CHAIRMAN. How much education do you require that these

boys have? How much do )ou think would be best?Mr. BILLSMEiER. Just a'high-school education. That is all we

require.The CHAIRMAN. Just a high-school education?.Mfr. BILLSMEYER. Yes; just a high-school education.The CHTAIRMIAN. How long is the course in mechanics?Mr. BILLSMEYER. We have two courses, a day couisq and a night

course. It takes the day course anywhere to 14 months for the boyto get through as a mechanic. In the night school it takes 2 years.It takes some a little longer. It depends upon how regularly theycome in, and so on. But I don't think this course would have togo into it so thoroughly to make these pilots, as is the case withthe mechanics.

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The ChAIRMAN. You mean you undertake to train these youngmen in mechanics so that they are prepared to go into an aircraftfactory and go to work?

Mr. BILLSMEYF.R. That is right.The CHTAIRMAN. Do they do it? Ale they able to get jobs?Mr. BILLSMEYEI. Right at present they are. It seems to be

pretty good right now. There have been new contracts let out andit seems to be all right. But a year or so ago it wasn't so good.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean the manufacturers consider them qualifiedto do the work, provided the manufacturer has the work to do?

Mr. BILLSMEYER. Yes, sir; they do. That is for a certain extentof the work they have. We do not cover everything in the airplaneend of it. The Department of Commerce will issue a license anairplane and engine mechanic's license today to a graduate of a schoolif lie can pass their requirements. It is the same as a pilot's license;but this would be a licensed mechanic.

The CHAIRMAN. You say in connection with your schoci you alsohave a flying school?

Mr. B1LLSMEYER. Yes; we do.The QH AIRMAN. Do you have anything to do with that personally?Mr. BILLSMEYER. I personally? I am connected with three differ-

ent fields. When we take the flying student we take him to the fieldand let him fly there.

The CHAIRMAN.,. Are you a flier yourself?Mr. BILLSMEYER. Yes, sir; I am.The CHAIRMAN. What is your idea as to about how long it would

be necessary to give the instruction in flying after the ground schoolwork is all over?

Mr. BILLSMEYER. I believe a boy should have anywhere from 50to 100 hours of flying. Then I think they could take them in theaverage military airplane and with a day's instruction in checkinghim out on it they could make a pretty good pilot out of him.

The CHAIRMAN. How many weeks or how many months would itbe necessary for him to be at the school in order to get the 50 hours?

Mr. BILLSMEYER. I guess that would depend a great deal uponwhat part of the Unittd States he is and also upon the weatherconditions, and things of that kind.

Tile CHAIRMAN. lie would be sure to get the 50 hours in 3 monthsin almost any part of the United States, would he?

Mr. BILLSMEYER. I don't think so, sir. I would say 6 months.The CHAIRMAN. You would say that it would take 6 months for

that?Mr. BILLSMEVERI. Yes; it would.The CHAIRM..,. Let me ask you this question. Would it be prac-

ticable and feasible to carry on both the ground school work and theprimary flying instructions at the same time and shift from one to theother in the day time?

Mr. BILUSMEYER. I would not think so. If you start a bunch ofstudents, I think you should have at least 3 months of groundworkfirst. And then the student could start in on work in between, andthen he could start his flying and finish both of them as they go along.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose your judgment is confirmed by most ofthe others.


Mr. DoRsEY. I presume the gradur-tes of your school find employ-ment in the Philadelphia naval aircraft factory?

Mr. BILLSMEYER. We have some in there. They are building anew factory there. There are a lot on the list. We have some inthere, and there are quite a number on the list.

Mr. DORsE:Y. They seem to qualify for that work?Mr. BILLSMEYER. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Is there anyone else who has any questions? (No

response.)Thank you very much, '.Mr. Billsmeyer.Col. Harry H. Blee, I have a memorandum here that you represent

the National Aeronautic Association.Colonel BLEE. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. And you are also an officer in the Air Reserve?Colonel BLEE. Yes, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Will you please make any statement you care to

make?

STATEMENT OF COL. HARRY H. BLEE, REPRESENTING NATIONALAERONAUTIC ASSOCIATION

The CHAIRMAN. Formerly, for several years, you were Director ofAeronautics Development of the Department of Commerce?

Colonel BLEE. Yes, sir; I was.Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, at the request of

the National Aeronautic Association I have made a study and analysisof this bill.

In my opinion'the measure' presents some very sound and con-structive principles which, if carried out, would contribute materiallyto- the national defense and also to the advancement of civil aero-nautics in the United States.

-There are a few suggestions and observations I should like to pre-sent. "The bill provides for- the setting up by the Secretary of Warof a Junior Air Reserve. I believe it would be better if the wordingwere changed to provide for the setting up of an Air Reserve TrainingCorps, a training corps to provide primary training for prospectiveAir Corps Reserve officers and officers of the air units of the NationalGuard.

" I would suggest that the age limits be changed from the present pro-vision of 18 to 21 years to include the limits 18-to 24.

The primary ground instruction and primary flying training shouldin my opinion, be given by civilian instructors. From an adminis-trative standpoint, it would probably be advantageous, in the begin-ning, at least, to initiate the program in the colleges, universities, andap roved commercial aviation schools of the country.

r Would recommend that the primary flight instruction include atleast 50 hours of actual flying training and that it be given in eachcase at approved civilian flying schools in relatively inexpensive,light-weight commercial olanes of a type approved by the Air Corpsand under the general supervision of the Air Corps. - -- The primary ground instruction should include such subjects asthe elements of aerodynamics, the general principles of airplane and

JUNIOR ItR RF.SERVE bI

en-ine construction and operation, and the fundamentals of airnavigation and meteorology. -

As the Air Reserve Training Corps expands, units could be estab-lished at various civilian flying centers throughout the country.I suggest the establishment of initial units at the colleges univer-sities, and existing approved aviation schools from the standpoint ofsimplification of the initial administration of the organization.

The graduates of the Air Reserve Training Corps could advanta-geously be encouraged to continue their training in the enlisted AirReserve Corps and with air units of the National Guard. Thosegraduates offering the most promise could well be selected as studentofficers for training in military subjects and in military flying.

We should not lose sight of the fact that the Air Corps is very muchhandicapped through lack of funds and by the shortage of personneland equipment; also that there is a shortage of funds and equipmentfor the training of the Air Corps Reserve. Hence, from the stand-point of the practical application of the provisions of this bill, it isvery desirable that the committee have in mind the matter of fundsthat would be needed by the Air Corps to handle the administrationand supervision of the several activities involved.

This concludes my statement, Mr. Chairman, unless there arequestions someone would like to ask.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for this very helpfulsuggestion.

What requirements are there now for the commissioning of a youngman as a second lieutenant in the Air Corps Reserve? That is,assuming he is not a graduate of the Air Corps Training Center buthe comes up and says, "I want a commission as a second lieutenantin the Reserve"? Of course, lie has to take the examination. But,what minimum requirements do you think he would have to have inorder to pass that examination? "

Colonel BLEE. Do you.mcan what are the minimum requirementsof the regulations at the present time?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; at the present time.Colonel BLEE. I would prefer, Mr. Chairman, that this question

be answered by one of the Regular officers who are here. It les bensome time since I have had-occasion to look into those requirements,hence I am sure the Regular officers here would be in a position to giveyou fuller and more com prehensive information on that. subject.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions by any members of thecommittee? (No reponse.) -. Thank you very much, Colonel Blee. And let me add this, Colonel.

'After you have slept over what has been said here today, if there issomething which you are satisfied would be helpful to us, I would beglad to have you communicate it either by letter or telephone or bycoming in person, because I know how unselfish and patriotic you arein this matter. * - .. -

Colonel BLEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I shall be very gladto do so.

The CHAIRMAN,. Is Mr. Elmer G. Meyers, of Raleigh, N. C., pre8-ent?

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STATEMENT OF ELMER G. MEYERS

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Meyers, what is your official connectionwith aviation in North Carolina?

Mr. MEYERS. I have been appointed by the Governor to representthe State of North Carolina in aviation matters. However, I do nothave a regular aviation committee in the State.

The CHAIRMAN. We would be very glad to have you state to uswhat your reaction is to this suggestion.

Mr. MEYERS. I am also a commercial operator at Raleigh, N. C.Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, of course, I concur with the general

idea here, and I can say that it is the most progressive step, probably,that has ever been taken since I have been interested in flying. Ithink it has great possibilities. But, since there have been severalideas advanced, I would like to throw in one or two for good measure.

Raleigh is ideally situated and lends itself to this idea because wehave three great colleges and universities there. We have DukeUniversity, at Durham; North Carolina University, at Chapel Hill;and Carolina State College, almost right in Raleigh.

The CHAIRMAN. All are within a radius of 20 miles, are they not?Mr. MEYERS. All are within a radius of probably 20 miles by air

from Raleigh. As I say, we have a picture there that would'lenditself beautifully to this idea.

However, I can say that from a practical standpoint there aregoing to be some problems here which I am afraid will give this billsome trouble.

Under Mr. Steele's plan it would call for additional NationalGuard and Reserve units almost as soon as some of these boys wouldbe ready to take on that advanced training. Of course, only 19States now have National Guard squadrons. And, as has beenstated, the Reserve facilities are very inadequate. I happen to be aReserve officer, and I would find it fairly difficult to go to a placewhere I could get a ship when I got there, and also to get the type ofship or do anything at all in flying from the Reserve angle.

I would like to see this idea worked out along the lines visualized,that is, tv-o lanes of boys coming up to this point where they areready to take on Mr. Steele's advanced training, one set being theboys to be recruited from the colleges, that is, where they are attend-ing college, and the other being the boys to be taken from the civilianstatus or boys who are not attending college but who would be wellqualified, and providing for that the requirement of a high-schooleducation and who are able to pass the required examination of theWar Department or Department of Commerce. My idea would bethat these boys who are civilians and are not in college would take,let us say, a 6 months' training course, which would be very muchin line with the course that was formerly given by the Air Corps.I think they call it a Junior Air Pilots' Course. It was rather a shortcourse given for the benefit of the National Guard officers who werein business and vho could take just a short course and then returnand receive further training with their squadrons until they wereready to recee the regular rating.

In other words, my idea would be to have the college boys, on theone hand, receiving their training possibly during the 3 monthsvacation periods, and te. other set of boys olght to get their training

JUNIOR AIR RFERVE

at any time; in either event, the War Department to prescribe therequirements, and, when the boys graduate at this civilian flyingschool, and have met all of the requirements there, then to go up beforean Army board and pass this Army board and then be given theirunior air pilots' rating. Then, of course they would be in line for this

Reserve and National Guard training. One of the serious problemsthere would be the establishment of these additional National Guardand Reserve units.

In the main, I believe that expresses my ideas on the matter. As Isay, it is the grandest thing and the most progressive step that hasever been taken. I think it is a great thing.

The CHAIRMAN. Along the lines of the suggestion by Mr. Watersof contacting and encouraging these thousands of young men, whichwould, in itself, indirectly create the demand for additional NationalGuard units and Reserve units, for which there is a considerabledemand; I happen to know about that, because I traveled all over theWest, to the Pacific coast, this past fall, and everywhere I contactedGovernors and asked them generally about it. They were all askingfor more authority to increase their National Guard air units.

I think I see where the National Guard units will ultimately becharged with the responsibility of the local defense in air matters, andthe National or Nation-wide defensewill devolve upon the headquartersair force, thrown here or there as the point of attack may threaten.So we will need more National Guard air units. And [think themovement we are here starting will help out.

Mr. MIEYERS. I certainly do think so also. But last year there wasintroduced in the House by Congressman Peterson, of Georgia, andSenator Bailey, of Raleigh, N. C., a bill to create additional NationalGuard units. But it died a slow death. We are badly in need of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me say something about that. That bill wasreferred to this committee, but I never heard of it until either yester-day or the day before yesterday. So there wasn't very much pressureput behind it. We are going to put some pressure behind it from nowon. There ought to have been some agitation for it from those whowere interested in it. We just can't get things going without it. Ittakes a lot of pressure.

Mr. M EERS. Of course, most of us were operating on our owncapital and our own resources, and we were limited in our ability tokeep going.

The CHAIR AIN. That is true. But it does not take much to buy a3-cent stamp to write to your Congressman; or lie will be around tosee you in 2 years, anyway.

Thank you very much, Mr. Meyers. You have been very helpful,and we appreciate it.

Is Mr. Thompson, of Illinois, present?(No response.)Is Mr. Robert Wilson, of Trenton, N. J., present?(No response.)General Westover has been good enough to remain here all day and,

listen to these many views and if the General cares to make anyobservations at this time, we will be glad to hear them. If he doesnot, it will be all right, because we know that his Meart is in the subjectof national defense and the air pilot, and that if this should becomelaw he will give it a most sympathetic administration.

JUNIOR AIR RBeRVB

Are you prepared now to make any discussion, General?The general is Chief of the Air Service.

STATEMENT OF MAJ. GEN. OSCAR WESTOVER, CHIEF OF THEAIR CORPS

General WESTOVER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committeewhen I called the attention of the Chief of Staff to your letter andasked whether any War Department representative had been desig-nated, he expressed great interest, of course, in the proposed confer-ence with regard to the bill.

As you know, the War Department last year found it necessary totake a certain stand with reference to the bill and did not reportfavorably on it. They understood, however, that the bill was to bereconsidered in a conference like this and be given much furtherconsideration, perhaps, with a view to modification, and in some formthat it might, perhaps, after due study by the War Department,receive some measure of support..

Of course, I am not authorized at this time to give any commitmentsof the War Department, because they would like to study the modifiedbill in that regard.

The CHAIRMAN. And see it in its final form?General WESTOVEn. Yes; see it in final form.The CHAIRMAN. In that connection I would like to say the com-

mnittee will go over all of these views that have been presented heretoday and I will ask the committee to give its approval or makechanges and modifications, but, whatever they decide, there will comeout a new bill and then we will submit that to you for your study;that is, we will submit it to the War Department and, of course, theywill submit it to you for study.

General WESTOVER. I would like to make a few observations at thistime based upon points which have come up.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps that will help us in modifying the bill.General WESTOVER. Of course, from the Regular Army standpoint

or the War Department standpoint we have by law certain objectivesalready fixed. Those objectives are the three components of theRegular Army as they exist today. This bill, as it now stands, wouldseem to provide a fourth component. And knowing that appropria-tions for the War Department as a whole are generally budgeted,naturally, when you create a new component it means that within thebudget fi xed by the President there will have to be les, then, for someof the fixed three components that constitute our first and primaryobjective now.

We have in the Air Corps Reserve today what we consider almostenough pilots to meet immediate requirements. We will need somemore, but we are gradually increasing the number in the Air CorpsReserve by reason of the men who have graduated from the trainingschool and who have reverted to the Reserves. Aircraft are beingmanufactured, and there is, of course, a length of time that is neces-sary for us in meeting the war problem, the problem of mobilizationon a national scale for a major emergency. During that time ourrequirements for pilots can be met by existing agencies but we willhave to provide increased training facilities, naturally, to meet thetotal number we will need, let us say, at the end of a year. At the

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end of a year our requirements will be big, and our airplane programat that time may not be able to keep pace with our pilot requirements.That is a matter which is now under study. It is very thoroughlyunder study. We have found out recently in the beginning of thisnew study that our requirements for Reserve pilots at the end of ayear of a major emergency are undoubtedly nowhere near as much aswe have previously pictured them to be, that they are going to begreatly reduced. They will be somewhere near the figure which youquoted this morning, Mr. Chairman, of 18,000 to 20,000 pilots.

To meet that requirement we are making this study. Undoubtedly,when that study is complete, the. War Department would be in a fineposition to make constrictive recommendations with regard to howto process and bow to obtain and then to build them.

I bring that out only to let you know what is going on in the way ofstudy to meet the situation.

With regard to the way in which men can come into the Reservestoday from the National iOuard or other sources, we require 400 hoursof certified flying time on the part of those pilots, and we require themto pass an examination, both flying and on certain mental subjects, tobe passed before they can be taken in.

Under that present system there is naturally quite a gap betweenthe training that has been spoken of by various gentlemen here thismorning that they hope to acquire as a result of taking one of theseflying courses, and the 400 hours.

There would have to be a tremendous number of planes made avail-able to keep those men in flying trim and to give them some oppor-tunitv to continue to fly.

Tle use of the regqrifr Army, National Guard, or Reserve equip-ment as suggested today would appear to be impracticable, becauseeverybody has stated that we are short of planes for our Reserve units.It is a recognized fact. We are certainly short of planes for ourregular units; we are short of personnel for all three components.

So a bill of this kind being put into effect at this time would be afurther diversion of limited personnel. You would have to scatterthem still thinner, and, in the accomplishment of the organizationand training of your regular Army component, your National Guardand your Reserve component., you would be delaying their effectivetraining if you tried to do it without some other provision.

A thought occurred to me as I listened to several of the talks thismorning that there are two phases involved in the matter: One isclearly a phase which is in support of civil aeronautics-not the com-mercial snlelv, but civil aeronautics, covering the entire field. Thatphase would'take up, let us say, to the completion of or graduationfrom the school. Perhaps something could be worked out whichwould recogni ce and put Government effort behind the phase ofcivil aeronautics so that when a worthy person has completed itsrequirements in aeronautics, in a major war he could fill in the gap,with such constructive suggestions as the War Department nughthave.

There are many other phases of this that I might discuss from myown personal standpoint, but I think that involves the highlights andgives some pointers on the side of the War Department wich, perhaps

ave not been presented previously.

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The CHAIRMAN. I thank you, General. But I want to ask youthis: If you are too busy to do it, please detail someone from yourheadquarters to keep in contact with this committee, as we shall beconsidering these amendments to the bill, and see if we cannot getjust as close together as possible, so that we will understand eachother as we go along. If you are too busy to do that, won't you pleaseconsider having some officer from your headquarters do it? We donot ask for him now, but it is so that, at least, we can partially haveyour point of view. Then, through him and through what you haveheard, you will begin to see our point of view, and, ultimately, wewill get together.

I will say this, General, that I gather you and I and others are notnearly so far apart now on this proposal as those who were then incommand of the War Department, the Chief of Staff and DeputyChief of Staff and other chiefs of branches. We are not nearly so farapart as they were from this committee in 1926 when we set up theAir Corps. It is a matter of record, and the records all show it. Wehad no cooperation and no help, but every difficulty and objectionwas set up in our faces, but, finally, we just said, "We believe we areright and we will go on." And I tlink the experience of the last 10years has shown that this committee was right in 1926.

General WESTOVER. Mr. Chairman, I believe I speak the WarDepartment's view when I say there is the deepest sympathy withthe main purpose of the bill, which is to foster the interest and stim-ulate the interest of the young people. I think that is fine. 1e areall in sympathy with that. The question is as to the practical wayto work it out and still accomplish it.

The CHAIRMAN. And the question of money is one difficulty.General WESTOVER. Yes; it is.The CHAIRMAN. But I believe, like Mr. Waters said, this will be

widespread, and will help us raise the money, and will put some fireunder each Congressman when we come to vote.

Is there any question of General Westover?Mr. COSTELLO. How much flying does the ordinary Reserve officer

get in at the present time?General WESTOVER. The allowance averages are about 20 hours a

year. It is planned to be increased to about 4S hours a year.Mr. COSTELLO. All of the officers belonging to the Reserve would

amount to 3,500?General WESTOVER. It is 3,075.Mr. COSTELLO. Do all of those officers get in that amount of

flying?General WESTOVER. There is quite a distribution of flying time

within the Air Corps. Some get more than others. You will find incertain places near big cities there will be some who will always belooking for it. As long as there is flying time available, it is better tohave it for those the more qualified. But out of the total numberthere are about 846 on a nonflying status, 640 hold ineligible appoint-ments, and 150 hold other than airplane pilot ratings or need furthermilitary training. They have been pilots in their day but nc.-,, forphysical or other reasons, they are not flying. We can use them onadministrative or supply duties.

Mr. COSTELLO. How many of those in the Reserve at the presenttime are really active to such an extent that they would be able tostep into the Army?


General WFLTOVER. 1,439 we consider today ready to go to thefront tomorrow, if they have to.

Mr. COSTELLG. They keep up with all the modern problems?General WESTOVER. Yes, sir; they do.The CHAIRMAN. 1,439 are provided in three groups-the wartime

pilots, the airport-training directors, and then the other groups fromother sources, 33% percent each, I believe.

General WEsioVE. The 1,439 pilots of today, regardless of theirpast history, whether they are wartime pilots or recent graduates,are physically fit and trained to go to a combat unit today.

The CHAIRMAN. I agree with you right now; but every year isworking on those fellows who were in there during the war.

Time is trimming down their chance to fly in a future war.General WEsTovz. But each year we are getting a bigger accretion

through the training centers The men who revert to civil life todaycomplete their active duty.

The CHAIRMAN. In other w,)rds, your accretion is greater than yourwash-outs?

General WESTOVER. That is right, sir.The CHAIRMAN. Or your dimnution?General WESTOVER. That is right.The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, General.I observe General Knight is present here. Would you care to say

anything, General?Brig. Gen. H. E. KNIGHT. Mr. Chairman, I am not representing

the War Department at this conference. I am simply here as aspectator. I am now on the General Staff, and have simply come uphere to become oriented.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. W. D. Tipton.

STATEMENT OF W. D. TIPTON, LIEUTENANT COLONEL, MARY.LAND NATIONAL GUARD

Mr. TIPTON. In order to identify myself, Mr. Chairman, I %-ill sayI hold the rank of lieutenant colonel in the Air Corps of the MarylandNational Guard. I am also operator of the Curtiss-Wright Airport,in Baltimore.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Colonel Tipten. We will be glad tohave a statement from you.

Mr. TIFTON. Mr. Chairman, I think anyone will approve the gen-eral idea behind this bill, but it seems to me that the bill in its presentform is a little bit vague as to bringing the mental picture of the planto the minds of everyone. After reading it over rnd hearing the dis-cussion, I have a fairly definite idea of ,vh t, to me, the plan shouldlook like when put into effect.

I think we have to assume, first, that it will cost woney. I do notbelieve it will go over on a voluntary basis. It will cost money, be-cause it costs money to keep people in the air.

My idea would be that some responsible agency o the FederalGovernment would first set up some sort of a training program. Tomy mind, that training ptograni might be, in the first year) the givingto these candidates w~iat is equivalent to a private pilot's course aslaid down by the Department of Commerce. The candidates wouldhave to meet certain requirements. It seems to me the a-e limits


might be 16 to 24; 16 is the minimum age at which a student pilotcan obtain a student pilot's permit.

From the physical standpoint, I think the candidate should pass aphysical examination prescribed by the service schools.

I think the 50 hours training, which is the private pilots' course,and the ground training which is associated with it, could be donecoincidentally. There is no reason why the student should be givenground training and then flying training. The services start them onground training and flying training at the same time. So I see noreason why flight training should be delayed at all.

During the first year, what is the picture? It seems to me thatthis Federal agency. should arrange practically to subsidize the flighttraining of these candidates. It could be done by paving a certainpercentage of the hourly flying cost as now established by the variouscivil flying schools throughout the country. It certainly seems to methat 50 percent of that is about the limit. If it were a lesser percent-age I think the picture is simply this: Suppose we take 25 percent.Suppose all of the flying schools in the country were reduced by 25percent; how many more would take advantage of the training? Ithink there would he very many more. I think you have to make areduction in rate to these applicants to substantially increase thenumber who will take advantage of this training.

I say this 50-hour course would require about 1 year. It does notseem to me that the course need be given in any concentrated periods.The man may be attending school, lie may have a job, and he can getin his 50 hours just as though he were purely a civilian buying time ashis pocketbook would permit. After buying the 50-hour period, itseems to me his training should be further subsidized each year forabout a minimum of at least 10 or 15 hours. The. Department ofCommerce regulations require a pilot to get in at least 10 hours ayear thereafter in order to hold his pilot's license. I think such a planshould meet that requirement also.

The requirements for entrance into such a training plan, it seemsto me, should be high-school education, or the equivalent, as the billprovides. I do not think there is any reqcn for limiting it to uni-versities, because there are plenty of high-school graduates who willmake excellent students for this training and who, eventually, willdrift into military service through the proper channels.

One point I would like to bring out, which I believe has not beenmentioned up to now, is that such a plan would be a real economyto the service schools. You gentlemen realize that when a studentgoes to one of the service schools a great many of them are washedout. I don't know what the figures are now, but I imagine, out ofevery 100 candidates who go to our service schools, not more than40 of them are graduated; 60 are washed out. The high percentageof them are washed out in their initial stage. In other words, theytake them to Randolph Field or to Pensacola to train them 8 hours,and then find that they will never learn to fly. It must cost some-where near $100 an hour to do that, to obtain the washout training.

If you contracted with the civilian schools in the country, certainlythe rate would be one-fifth of that. So, for a dollar, you could getfive times as much washout training as in the service schools.

If the service schools draw on the graduates of the plan tor theirstudents, they get men who have at least 50 hours in the air and it


goes without saying that, given 100 men, they are going to graduatea much higher percentage of those initial trainees than they wouldunder the present plan, where they take a man who, perhaps, hasnever seen an airplane before.

I do not think this plan should be limited to the Army alone. Ido not see why it cannot be made available to both the Army andthe Navy.

As to the National Guard, I have had quite a lot of experiencewith National Guard aviation. I do not consider men who graduatefrom one of these 50-hour courses fit personnel for the NationalGuard. He has had no military training. Our National Guardofficers want to get them from the regular Army training school; thatis, graduates front a regular Army training school. We do not wantto compromise on that a bit. After all, there are only 325 NationalGuard officers. The law limits the number of officers and squadrons,and we want to get the highest type possible without leaving a back-door entrance into the National Guard that would let in personnelnot so well trained.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you get enough applications to fill all vacancies?Mr. TIPTON. Speaking for our Iaryland squadrons, we always

have a waiting list. As a matter of fact, we are weeding out per-sonnel from time to time.

The CHAIRMAN. You are right in taking the very best.Mr. TIPTON. Yeg; we know we are.Another item General Westover mentioned is this ap between a

man who might be a graduate of such a plan as this andthe minimumrequirements of the Army Air Corps Reserve-400 hours. And wewl3l presume a man may have 3 years under this plan and would comeout, perhaps, with 100 hours. How will you bridge that gap from 100to 400 hours?

The CHAIRMAN. You heard Mr. Steele's suggestion as to the stu-dent officers from the time they finish this course until they acquirethat 400 hours. Then they will be eligible for commissions in theparticular branch.

Mr. TIPTON. I think the National Guard planes would be due inthere, because they are service-type airplanes, and, under the regula-tions, no one is permitted to fly them unless they hold the rating ofairplane pilot, which is the 400-hour set-up.

I think some thought should be given to filling this gap. PersonallyI do not wish to start any controversy with General Westover, but Ithink 400 hours is too high. I know that in my experience with theNational Guard we have taken officers who were commissioned andhave becn sent to the Army training school for training and they com-pleted what was then the primary course, something like 70 hours. Anumber came back to us with commissions and what was then knownas junior airplane pilot ratings. We could pick them up where theregular Air Corps left them off in the primary stage and give them theadvantage of training on our regular Army aircraft. That gap is amatter to be overcome-starting at the age of 16 years, and finallygetting him where lie is a fighting pilot.

Although I have listened in all morning, I have heard no plan up tonow that would bid e that gap.

The CHAIRMAN. Iou have been very helpful, Colonel.Are there any questions of the colonel?(No response.)


Colonel BLEE. A little while ago, and shortly after the opening,you called for Mr. Merchant who is here representing the Air CorpsReserve Officers Association. He was out of the room at that timebut has since returned. I thought perhaps you would be glad to calfhim now.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we will be glad to hear from Mr. Merchant.

STATEMENT OF B. H. MERCHANT, OF THE AIR RESERVEASSOCIATION

Mr. MERCHANT. I had just one other thought which is somewhatof a compromise proposal: We feel we need a little more equipmentfor our present Air Corps Reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. We know that, too.Mr. MERCHANT. It has been brought out here a great many times,

but I feel if we bad enough equipment with which to work and enoughmoney that we could very readily train or help to train a number ofadditional men through an enlisted reserve. If these men aresufficiently interested to come in and work with us, they could ridewith us on tactical missions and training missions, and get in a greatdeal of training. They could be termed "Enlisted Reserve" or"Reserve Cadets", or something of tht sort. I think there mightbe an idea which would meet the objections of the War Departmentand also possibly save some money. Of course, we are interested inanything that will help the Air Corps Reserve. I do think we canhelp a great deal with this idea if we have more to work with.

The CHAIRMAN. If you had more what?Mr. MERCHANT. If we had more equipment with which to work.This idea of using the Reserve planes and National Guard planes

for this project-the number is so limited now that I do not think itwould be very practical.

For instance, in the Third Corps Area I think there are two air-planes assigned to the Reserve use. They happen to be in Pittsburgh.That is not the Air Corps' fault. They do not have them to give tous. I do not think you can depend upon a great number of planesto be available for the use of this Junior Reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Merchant, did you hear Mr. Steele's state-ment this morning?

Mr. MERCHANT. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I did.The CHAIRMAN. Tell us whether or not your observation is similar

to his, to wit, that these planes which have been assigned to theReserve officers are generally not used, along, let us say, on TuesdayWednesday, Thursday, and so on, but are used Saturdays andSundays?

Mr. MERCHANT. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. The principaluse is on weekends, when we have the spare time to use them. Ithink generally they are idle a good part of the week, that is, duringthe middle of the week. I do not see why it would not be practicalto use them for other purposes during the week.

Of course, that would also fit in with the idea I just mentioned,that is, bringing in these men as enlisted reserves.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I had in mind.Mr. MERCHANT. That plan is working perfectly at some points.

For instance, at Louisville, they have practically 30 enlisted reserves

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who come out voluntarily on their own time without pay, servicetheir ships and work on them for just what experience they can get.I think the present regulation is that these enlisted reserves must beconsidered as officer material. That is about the only additionalsuggestion we have to offer in addition to the ones already given.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?(No response.)The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much, Mr. Merchant.I notice Mr. Strohmeier indicates he has something to say.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM D. STROHMEIER

Mr. STROHMEIER. Mr. Chairman, this morning when I brought upmy ideas on tile intercollegiate angle of this flying business I did notoutline any particular program which the organized collegiate flyinginterests of the country would recommend. I have now this outline,but I am sorry to say that it does not exactly agree with what hasbeen brought out here today.

The CHAIRMAN. You say this outline is something which has beenalready approved by your association?

Mr. STROHMEIER. This represents an agreement between us.The CHAIRMAN. Something you arrived at today?Mr. STROHMEJER. This is an idea I thought of, and I would like to

make a few remarks on it.In the first place, the suggestion has been that most of the training

be done in the summertime for the period of 3 months. Well, I donot like to contradict your statement about standing around on thestreet corners, but I think you will find a great many of the collegestudies spend their summertime in jobs. A good many of them relyon those jobs for the purpose of going through college.

If they want to take this aviation training enough to spend theirown vacation in doing it, they would not have 3 months. If theyhad to spend this whole summer at a training camp, or somethinglike that, I am afraid that a good many of them would not find itpo"sible. A great many of them are eligible and capable men whowould not find it possible, because a great many of them rely on thevacation period in which to earn part of their tuition.

There is another thing that seems most important to me whichapparently has not been considered This refers back to my remarko this morning that students still have spare time, and there is noreason why they cannot use that spare time for this work of learningaviation and things like that.

As I understand it, this waA chiefly a discussion of the establish-ment of a reserve for college flyers and other men of that type. AsColonel Bloe suggested, it seems rather logical that when we start in,that colleges should be considered first, and then branch out after-ward, because in colleges we already have these organized clubs andgroups that could fit very well into a picture like this.

My first suggestion, therefore, would be that the chief emphasis onthu actual operation of this bill, after it is approved, if it is approved,would he that a standardized course be instituted in these collegeswhere there is enough student-interest and where it is deemed practicalto have a course. This course could become a part of the regularcollege cuiricula.


In that respect you have several at Harvard who are in the navaltraining course there. At Harvard they have the naval training coursewhich prepares men to become part of the Naval Reserve. Thatcourse is counted as an official cuiriculum course and they are givencredit for it toward their diploma. They have a whole buildingthere devoted to this work. They have a large staff, and the courseis very popular.

The men take this regular 3-hour course a week, and in the sunerthey spend 2 or 3 weeks on shipboard, durin,, the training period.

That stikes me as being a very nice analogy to what might happenregarding the development of this Air Reserve for college boys.

My suggestion, therefore, would be that starting in there mightbe 4(1 or 50 colleges throughout the country which would be in aposition to take in an Army instructor on their faculiv, the -alory to

be paid by the Army, of course, plus a few assistants, if necessary.Generally, all of these colleges have very fine physics laboratories,anti the Army instructor could fit right in the physics department.A regular course could be brought out in aerodynamics, as mightbe prescribed by the War Department. that would be given as anofficial credit on the degree.

I think that is a very important point, because I think, really, tobe worked out properly, it will require a great deal of time on the partof the students, if we really want results and really want to get menin the Reserve who are capable of being there. In other words, wewould have to deal with the college administration.

That leads me to the point of such organized groups taking theirinstruction under training from commercial operators. I do notquite see why the United States should have to rely upon commercialoperators to'train its Reserves. It has never been done before, sofar as I know, and it just does not seem to fit very well into thepicture.

Along that same line, if this instruction is to be primarily of amilitary nature, what, may I ask, can an instructor in civil aeronau-tics do to properly train these students in military tactics and otherphases of military flying, about which very few of these commercialflyers know very much?

That statement may antagonize some of the people present herotoday, but, frankly, tlat is my idea on the subject.

If that were possible in these various colleges where there is enoughinterest, it strikes me that the simplest and most economical methodof giving these men flight instructions is to give them an airplane.That may sound like too much of a gift. They would not have togive it to them; the airplane would be owned by the Army; of course.Well, that would be the suggestion I would mak,. The airplane wouldbe used strictly for instruction by the same instructor wh3 is doingthe Army instruction.

Now, it seems to me one man could handle all of that in one college.They could use an airplane which does not cost $30,000, as has beenstate(l here. They could use one which costs three or four thousanddollars. They could be given regular, systematized training whilethey are in college and right thee on the campus, rather than havingto rely upon commercial operators at approved schools to which theywould have to go, quite a distance from college in some cases. For

MYMUOR AIR RESERVE 63

instance, there are sonic colleges out in the country that would haveto go quite a ways for an approved school.

Near Amherst, and near Purdue University out in the west, thereare few schools, and it would be difficult for the students to go to theschools from those colleges. How can they carry on a decent systemof military instruction in a situation like that?

Then, in the su mmertme I would suggest that they be given 4 or 5weeks' training, in a regular air base, where they could learn formationflying, and things like that.

Very roughly, Mr. Chairman, that is what I have to suggest onbehalf of the National Intercollegiate Flying.

The CHAIRtMAN. Thank you very much.Of course, you must not think that I am thinking that by this

elementary course we can make military pilots. I am only thinkingthat we can give certain fundamental instruction which will make iteasier for the Army, when it does take these youngsters, to makemilitary pilots out of them.

My 'dea is that since it would be under the control of the Army,if it could be enacted into law, the Army would keep the records thatthese young men make in these various approved schools. Therewould be a record indicated by a card, or, perhaps, a more completerecord than the card, that would tell about his education, about hisparticular aptitudes in these schools; and these cards could be arrangedand classified so that in the event of an emergency or when we wantedto get ready for an emergency, all you would have to do would be topull the cards out of those who are'the most apt at flying, those mostapt for ground work, mechanical work, and so on. And you wouldstart right out getting ready for a great emergency. That is part ofthe picture as I see it, of course.

I do not think the idea is to make immediately military pilotscapable of being commissioned as either the National Guard or theReserve, out of the men we propose to have in this Air Reserve Train-ingCorps.

Ir. STROHMEIER. I can see your point on that, Mr. Chairman.The CHAIRMAN. That is my idea.Mr. STROHMEIER. It strikes me that if the Government h. going to

put in any money, I cannot see why they cannot apply that moneyto the best advantage. The ultimate end is to establish men in theReserves who know something about it. Why not teach them rightoff? Everybody says they have to go through some kind of a course.I do not see why they cannot go through such a course right in theirown college. I think that would be viuch simpler and much moreeconomic

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much, Mr. Strohmeier.Perhaps we will hold a round-table conference of the various college

authorities to see if they will not agree to cooperate.Mr. WIGGINS. I agree with Mr. Strohmeier's first remark that the

college students should not bo limited to the summer vacation only,but should be allowed to get tl.is primary instruction during the col-lege year for the reason that so many of them are earning their waythrough college and have to work during the summertime.

Further, they all have plenty of time during the college year totake this flying course.

64 JUNIOR AIR RNERVE

The main thing is that I strongly disagree with his remarks abouthaving this considered as military training and having an Army officerconnected with each college to give this instruction, as against whathas been advocated by the committee of having this given by t civilor commercial operator. That would take away 50 percent of thecommercial operators' business.

Mr. MERCHANT. Mr. Chairman, we have here Major Borre, ofBoston, Mass., representing our Air Reserve Association, who woAldlike to say a few words.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to hear from 'Major Borre.

STATEMENT OF MAJ. PETER BORRE

Major BORRE. I merely want to add to what has been said alreadyby emphasizing that probably the objective of this bill might best beachieved by passing bill no. 4348. And I refer to it in this manner:If you seek to create efficiency in a structure it can best be done bycreating the fundamental structure and strengthening that, ratherthan by creating a superstructure, which this seeks to create, beforewe have strengthened the Reserve element.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the bill to which you referred?Major BORRE. The Chief of Air Reserve. That is bill no. 4348.The CHAIRMAN. That is the bill I introduced.Major BORnE. That is it, exactly. That is why I am bringing it

to your attention.The CHAIRMAN. To permit the national air defense to establish

and reorganize within the United States an air reserve. That is thebill I introduced at the request of your association.

Major BonRE. It is, sir. Inasmuch as that bill contemplatesstrengthening that component, the Air Reserve component, I feelthat that should first be considered, before you seek to create the extrastructure, or thii additional structure, which this bill here seeks tocreate. In other words, if you create efficiency of the Reserve unit,that reserve unit will itself be a nucleus and a'force to carry out thetenor of this present bill. In other words, it will furnish the neces-sary instructors who will carry it out and see that the plan is furtheredthrough their efforts. Inasmuch as that is one of the essential ele-ments of our plan of air defense, I say that that merits the considera-tion of the Congress in the first instance, and that secondary con-aideration only should be given to this present bill.

I feel that the bill itself is a very good one, in that it does provide,as you have said, a reservoir for selection of future pilots and futurestudents and cadets at the air school. But, if we want to haveefficiency first, I say let's contemplate the creation of the Air Reserveitself, and then add ',, it the child, if you can call it such, which thisbill seeks to create.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?Mr. RooEsRs. Have you discussed this with any other officers in the

Air Corps, regarding their attitude toward bill no. 4348?Major BOinE. I have, sir. I have discussed it not only at the

convention which was held in Louisville but at our own chapter,which is the Corps Area Chapter, held in Boston. I think we con-template a visit Monday to Manchester, N. 11., where we will have

JUNIOR AIR RESERVE fib

our next meeting. Several of the officers who reside in New Ihamp-shire are in full accord with bill no. 4348.

I think I have written the Congressman on that point.Mr. RoGERS. Yes; I have your letter.The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?(No response.)The CHAIRMA . Thank you very much, Major Borre.Of course, you know Major Beattie, of Birmingham?Major BoRRE. Yes; Mr. Chairman, I do.The CHAIRMAN. We wrote him sometime ago that whenever you

gentlemen were ready to ask for a hearing on the bill, that we wouldbe very glad to have the hearing.

Major BoRnE. May that be considered by the committee? Iwould be very glad to check it up with then and let them know.

The CHAIRMAN. Whenever you gentlemen ask for it and are readyfor it.

Major BORRE. We will have a letter in your office by tomorrow.The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything else? Is' there any other

gentleman who ca p to say anything? X(No response. N*, xThe CHAIM .#. If not, I wish to thank all of you for your attend-

ance. The coference is now concluded. --(Thereupon, at 4:20 p. m., the committee adjourned.)

Junior Air Reserve - 23 Jan 1936

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Transcript of Junior Air Reserve - 23 Jan 1936