Jnanananda GiriSwamiBarlow GanjMussoorie

15th December 1980

 

I am back in my home in Landour, Mussoorie. I now have five Interviews but have not taken a single photograph (I will have to go back for those later). But where to go from here? Before I left for Hardwar, I wrote to the Radha Soami Satsang in Beas to ask permission to Interview someone living there whose work I admired (she prepares most of their books for publication). They replied, No. Kalu Rinpoche’s secretary never even replied. The secretary to the Theosophical Society never replied. My letter to Father Bede Griffiths has been returned: the address is wrong. Radha Dasi in Vrindavan says: You will love the special atmosphere of Vrindavan — do come — but, sorry, my own interviewing days are over.

There are two positive replies. Swami Satchidanand — he signs himself: Ever your Self — he says Mother Krishnabai will be happy to welcome me to Anandashram (the Ashram of the late Swami Ramdas). The other is from General Joginder Singh in Chandigarh: he is a sort of secretary-devotee of Sant Gulab Singh who is over 100 and has one American girl disciple who has lived with him and served him many years. I had assured them the Interview would be painless — they have given me a date next month.

With these two hopeful signs: one will take me to the south of India, the other to the north — the problem is what to do and where to go inbetween? My wife says: Just turn up at all the places you want to go to and play it by ear — writing to Ashrams is hopeless!

The next day, this new approach is encouraged by our Swiss friend, Swami Jnanananda, who has walked up the hill to see us from his forest retreat. He says: Do this book as part of your sadhana — selflessly — and you will see, as you go from place to place you will be guided to those who are already marked to give the Interviews.

He is aware of my apprehensiveness about travelling. In the past, wherever I had to go in India I was accompanying my guru as part of his entourage: all arrangements were made by

others — I was just to follow, to get into the car or train or plane. It was the same with accommodation: Please, this is your room.

Swami Jnanananda is right: I start packing, sort out my audio cassettes and begin studying the Ashram map of India.

But before I can leave on the search for the already marked and chosen, I am going to a nearby village I know well. There is a simple hut surrounded by flowers and woods and superb views: here enveloped in peace and solitude lives our Swiss Swami friend, wise, gentle and ever encouraging…a true friend.

 

Interview 6

Swami ji , the last Interview was given by the Duchessa Simonetta Colonna de Cesaro; she was so volatile that she started her story in the middle and gave the beginning at the end. So if you don’t mind, could you start at the beginning? Of course, I know you are Swiss by birth and that you have lived in India continuously for nearly 30 years — but can you tell me something about your past? For anyone who has renounced the world, there is no past.

Were you not a musician in your early life in Europe?I was never a professional musician. I had a deep interest in music, but from the age of 14 I was inspired by Eastern teachings. Even then I wanted to come to India. At the age of 23 this was realized: I came leaving Switzerland and my past for good. I have never gone back.

When you said there was no past, what did you mean?At the time of initiation, the guru absolves you of your past, hence a New Life — you enter the New Life.

Did it take you long to meet your guru? One week.

Oh! You must have heard about him before coming here.No, no!

But how did you find him? Coming to India in those days at the age of 23 wasn’t so common.True — I had never heard of anyone who had done it. So many tried to discourage me, but as soon as I arrived here everything happened. The guru actually expected me — he knew I was coming on such-and-such a date. I didn’t know myself. He told a disciple a person would

arrive while he was away and to ask him — me — to wait three days. I waited. I could have chosen between two persons — each could have been my guru. But my natural inclination drew me to the person who kept me waiting.

Where did all this happen? Calcutta — Dakshineswar.

How long did you stay with your guru? Twelve years — as long as he lived. After he left this world I never returned to Calcutta, I stayed in the Himalayas. My guru took me each year for five or six months to Rishikesh or Hardwar and gave me a place by the Ganga for meditation. During those twelve years I spent all my time by the banks of the Ganga.

Can you speak about the spiritual discipline he taught?He taught kriya yoga. He insisted on regular practice. Along with renunciation, discipline is essential. There must be regular practice of a guru-given technique and mantra. In order to realize these practices, I was drawn to complete renunciation: it is the best way to have sufficient time and to leave off thoughts of the world.

How did you support yourself? The guru took care of me in every way. He blessed me for the future, and he’s still taking care of me now.

You haven’t mentioned his name. Was he connected with Paramahansa Yogananda, as he taught kriya yoga?His name was Swami Atmananda Giri. His guru was Swami Kevalananda, Yogananda’s Sanskrit teacher. But my guru, Swami Atmananda Giri, actually took sannyas initiation from Yogananda.

How old was your guru when he left the body? As you were still so young, did you feel the need to go to another guru for instruction? He was 68. No — No — there was no need! He told me how to carry on, he told me before his passing.

Did you wait long before taking sannyas? Three years. First I lived in the Ashram as a brahmachari.

Can you give an explanation of sannyas? We belong to the order known as Dasnaami sannyasis which was founded in the nineth century by Adi Shankaracharya. Sannyas means renunciation; it is the fourth Ashram in Indian culture. The first is brahmacharya — student life. The second is grahastha — the householder’s life. The third is vanaprastha — the life of retirement from wordly pursuits. The fourth is sannyas — the life of complete renunciation dedicated to the teaching of divine knowledge. The divisions can be described like this: the first is one of addition, for a student must acquire knowledge. The second is one of subtraction, for a householder supports his family. The third is one of multiplication because having retired from the worldly life one has nothing else to do but acquire inner knowledge. The fourth is one of division; that is the time to distribute these inner riches for the enlightenment of others. So really to enter sannyas means to dwell in God.

You are non-Indian, non-Hindu, non-caste. Are you accepted by other sannyasis? I have not only been accepted, but legally also. There are some orthodox sections that may not accept this, but those in authority do. I became a sannyasi according to Hindu rites.

When you say legally, what does that mean? It has been attested by the Court, by the Government.

But why? The guru said it would be of some use.

Are you an Indian citizen?I deem myself so. According to a Hindu law which is now not in vogue, by entering sannyas I automatically become a Hindu. As it’s not the prevalent law I abide by the present rules — my foreign nationality has stayed all these years, and I get a yearly visa which is a formality, nothing more.

Can you speak more about the teachings?All spiritual teaching are the same: the essence is to dwell in God, to dwell in the Reality at all times. By spiritual practice one aims to lose one’s little self to become one with the Ideal.

Do you accept disciples and teach?I pass on what my guru taught me when there is a demand.

But you do have disciples?There are some people who call themselves disciples. These teachings are in the traditional line, but specifically adapted to the individual. Beside the technical aspect of yoga, one has to pass on the subtler aspect which leads to the ultimate transformation of each person who takes to the teachings. No two are alike. The exact nature of the teachings cannot be disclosed. It is beyond any words — call it grace, God’s grace! To pass on grace, and to be receptive to grace, that is itself grace.

In the early days did you have to study Sanskrit, or did your guru teach in English? He spoke to me in English. But there was not much talking. He asked me to practice what he taught me. Studying the ancient scriptures was my own liking: his emphasis was on regular meditation, discipline, the remembrance of God. It was not a question of study from books to add to one’s knowledge. It was to surrender to the Divine to feel what is meant by Reality or Absolute Truth. To feel this is to know It. Such feeling comes by intense self-giving. It is the grace of the unspeakable power of the Divine that opens the way to bestow the new life.

Earlier you mentioned our backgrounds, hinting perhaps at our karmic destiny. Would you say it is this that causes us to be drawn to a particular guru? Everything is due to past determination. There must be sincere longing, sincere prayer — plus God’s grace. It is that grace and the blessings of some good soul. Such good souls are everywhere in the world. The blessings of a good soul in the West may help a person to go to the East.

Swami ji , can you say something about the five thieves — lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride? They are known as the five thieves because they steal true happiness: they take man away from the eternal joy which lies in Reality. These thieves are the deluding factors, for man easily gets identified with lust, anger, greed, infatuation and ego. All spiritual practice is to enable us to eradicate these evils. Otherwise, there’s no meaning in any practice. Holiness, purity, is when we are transformed and these evils have no existence within us. When they are unmasked, love shines forth.

What are the outer signs of a person who has controlled these thieves?He is detached. He is detached even when they are present in his environment. Attachment to the five thieves is due to ignorance. Detachment is due to knowledge.

What advice do you give to someone wishing to break away from these thieves?If they haven’t yet found a guru, they should pray to God ceaselessly for a guide. After finding a guide — a teacher — they should serve him in any way they are capable and follow the teachings as far as possible. If one does not have a guru, one at least should cultivate the company of good persons, seekers of the way: they can learn much from them.

Would you say it’s essential to have a living teacher?I would say so.

These days there’s no shortage of imperfect teachers. How can sincere seekers avoid falling into their hands? Or is there no such thing as an imperfect, false guru? If one is false the guru will also be false. In the guru-disciple relationship there are many obstacles, the greatest being doubt. There will be persons questioning the disciple: How do you know if your guru is realized, if he’s competent? They try to awaken doubts, and should there be doubts, this is not a true disciple. Personally speaking, I found the guru who happened to be my guru was much better, more evolved than I was, so it was to my advantage to follow him. One follows the guru because one wants to follow God, and if one is sincere in following God, then the guru will become the instrument of God.

Also, it is not a question of my guru and your guru and someone else’s guru: there is only the Guru. Guru is a state of consciousness — it is not a person. The person is only the instrument through which the power of guru flows. Hence to say: My guru, is belittling the guru. It’s also the cause of much confusion.

Would you say there’s any advantage to studying spiritual books or scriptures without having a living teacher?Yes, they prepare a person for more personal guidance.

Is it essential to receive initiation from the guru? That depends on the guru. To have a guru usually means one gets initiation from him, but some gurus don’t give formal initiation. It depends entirely on the guru’s will.

What should be the aim of a seeker after Truth? Truth.

You spoke about the importance of meditation. Can you speak about the meditation you practice?It all depends on the guru’s instructions, which are usually given in secret. But essentially, meditation means to quieten the mind — more than that, to quieten oneself. That means silent in mind, body, feelings, thoughts; above all, to be steady at heart within, for at heart thou art. To be steady in the foremost centre of one’s being, or consciousness, practice of equanimity, practice of renunciation, practice of the remembrance of God are essential. Then alone one can take refuge in the innermost silence. The state of being is beyond silence itself: it’s inexpressible.

Swami ji , do you still sit at fixed times for meditation, or do you consider your daily activities as meditation? No. The particular time to meditate is one of the conditions laid down by the guru. It should go on indefinitely, irrespective of any thought that one has realized or not realized anything. But of course, the whole day should be spent in practicing the presence of God, practicing the presence of that Being.

Do you sit at any particular time?In the early morning — it’s called the hour of Brahma — 4 o’clock till sunrise. This is

traditionally the time when yogis and sanyasis practice meditation. The difference between a beginner and an adept is that for the beginner it’s an effort, for the adept it’s natural.

Again, would you say this naturalness comes from our background inclinations?Every sort of practice becomes natural in course of time. But here we are dealing with the intrinsic nature of one’s own self, one’sown being. So one can say that when meditation becomes one’ own nature it is natural.

Like most sannyasis you wear simple orange cloth, do you consider that important? This sort of uniform is helpful in the beginning: it’s like hedging a small plant, because like this one is not troubled by the world. One ultimately outgrows the colour. One ultimately outgrows all outward signs. In the life of renunciation, simplicity is foremost.

Do you observe any rituals?None of my own; sometimes I observe the rituals of my friends. To place a flower in a vase is a ritual. One can make one’s whole life a ritual without making it a rite. Everything can be a ritual if all one’s actions are offered to God. A ritual means to commune with God.

Is it possible to be married and live a spiritual life?In the path I am following, marriage is not advocated. It is a way taken after one has done with the world. But generally speaking, marriage is no obstacle on the spiritual path. Most rishis and sages of bygone times were married.

If a young man wishes to take the path of renunciation, how should he overcome sensual desire, which is instinctive?That path of renunciation is not advisable for young people; it is advocated in exceptional cases when the guru through insight knows it is possible. Generally, one should pass through the life of a householder, but on reaching a certain stage, retire from the worldly life — it can be along with one’s wife — and then devote one’s time entirely to the spiritual life.

Is this practical for those living in the West under the present hectic conditions? I cannot say what is happening in the West; it is the natural evolution of man that he should retire from material involvement when he grows old wherever he lives. Otherwise the purpose of life is unfulfilled. Family life, earning money for a reasonable living, doing good for one’s country, etc., is called dharma — good actions. This one should do. But above all, one should know how to retire from these outer actions because the inner life also has a demand. The later stage of one’s life is for contemplation — everything becomes subordinate to realizing God.

Now you have asked me about the hectic conditions under which most people live in the West. I believe the time will come when only those who meditate will be able to sleep at night. The total dependency on money and the security we imagine it brings is total ignorance if we are afraid to be alone without material possessions. At the time of death even millionaires are alone — nothing outside can help us. We are alone with our fears if we are rooted to the body, and we carry those impressions with us into the Beyond. Those who have meditated will also be alone when they leave, but will be filled with peace and they will carry that peace with them. To forget the world makes man a pilgrim; to forget the next world makes him a saint; to forget the ego gives him self-realization; forgetfulness of the forgetful is perfection.

Swami ji , that’s extremely moving, but can these profound teachings be applied by those living in the West?In truth there is neither East nor West — there is one humanity: these teachings are Eternal, they propagate the Eternal, they help humanity to realize that which is Eternal. Man’s

involvement in materialism is an experiment; he plays with nature and nature plays with him. Gradually man wants to become the master, so he puts away his toys and looks towards himself to find a marvel — there is no greater creation than himself. He can then probe the mystery of his own being, and it is here that the Eternal teachings come as a guide. So anybody anywhere can follow such teachings. For someone like myself, India seems to be the place for this life’s evolution, but that does not mean that those who yearn for the new life cannot find it in the West. We should go beyond the names and forms they represent and arrive at the nameless, the formless Truth that has Its being everywhere. It is universal understanding, universal realization, complete identification with the higher life that alone brings salvation to Christians in the West as well as Hindus in the East.

Can you ever see yourself living again in Switzerland?Switzerland is within me.

Swami ji , when I wrote to you about these Interviews, you replied the idea was good but would I be able to get the truth? What did you mean?Very few know the truth. If you are in quest of the truth, you cannot get the untruth. Life changes for everyone; while living in this life we are to start a new life. The new life has to become the real life, then only is it to be mentioned as something auspicious. Otherwise the new life may change into a newer life or even change back into the old life. The question is: Who is living? What is life? What is the aim of life?

As you go on collecting these Interviews, try to get at the truth by asking these questions. People often ask me why I have chosen this path. From my early days I wanted to know the purpose of life, what one can attain within a lifetime. If I become an artist, what is the ultimate art? If I become a poet, what is the ultimate poem? If I become a musician, what is the ultimate music? I tried all these things; very soon I realized there is no ultimate. So then I wanted to know the purpose of this life which is made up of so many moments: what is a moment of life — a moment of consciousness — a moment of existence? And as I was asking these questions — I was living in England in those days — I was asking: What is time? The reply was: We have no time to know what time is. Then my thoughts went to the East, for traditionally it has always been the place where people have found time to enquire into time.

You see, I didn’t find any purpose in this life. What to do? Whatever one achieves, is there an ultimate satisfaction? Now I will tell you because I know you were a musician: I went to London to enroll at the Royal College of Music. They said: You are too old! That’s strange — I thought — hardly 20 and too old… already one life gone. It was only when I met the guru that I understood — he told me: First look for God, then everything else will be given to you. We are all running after the lights and delights of the world not realizing we are sacrificing God Himself.

Swami ji , everyone is seeking happiness…it’s the true nature of our being. But what is the secret of happiness? Contentment.

How is it achieved?Not by seeking happiness.

How does one know when it is achieved?Because you will be happiness yourself.

So what is the difference between happiness and contentment?Contentment is self-inherent happiness. Whereas the happiness one strives for is illusion. It is

never in the present. Man is happiness himself. But due to lack of contentment he misses that happiness. Contentment is poise. Poise is attained through self-purification.

What is the impurity in man’s nature and being?His impurity is his state of self-forgetfulness. I don’t mean impurity in a material sense, or even in a mental sense. It simply means man has forgotten his identity, that is spirit, that is being. And he has lost himself in the world of becoming, thereby forgetting his being.

Can you expand on what you were saying about inner calm at the time of our physical death?Life can be beautiful if enriched by inner silence: what you may call silently loving, silently feeling, silently thinking; such a life fulfills the purpose of life. That is to live correctly. If we live correctly, we are able to face death fearlessly. That incident in life known as death we have to face without fear, otherwise death becomes distorted and we cannot pass through it in peace. So if we find the right way of living, the secret way of dying will be revealed. Death is the door through which we pass into life renewed.

Although I know you live this solitary life in peace with yourself, are you ever lonely?There’s no such thing as loneliness. One likes company for the sake of spiritual discussion, for the sake of satsang, for the give and take which is part of life. The reason why there’s no such thing as loneliness is because when one is alone, one is alone with God, and when one is in company, one is in company with God.

Can you say something about this one-roomed dwelling which just has a bed, some books, a corner fitted as a simple kitchen? Have you been here long?The owner of this estate met me when I was living on the banks of the Ganga. He suggested I should try the solitude of the forest. Reluctantly I came here. At first I stayed only a few months at a time. It has become a bit like a permanent abode. When I am here I manage everything myself. But a sannyasi is homeless — it is one of the conditions. The whole world is his home, and as such, he is not bound by any one place. Living this simple way has never been a problem because everything had to be given up, everything had to be forgotten.

We should never forget — those of us who have been drawn to live in India — we are living here by God’s will. The spiritual life is the beginning, the middle and the end of all life: everything is subordinate to the spiritual ideal, everything else is a play. I found the one great difference between the East and the West is that in the West everything of this world seems real, whereas in the East one sees everything is a play, and only God is real.

…… Now I think we should stop. You should eat some food here. As you know, I only make rice and lentils, but I am happy to share them with you.

There is no need, really.Look, I have to eat, you have to eat, you can join me. This is what I eat every day. It must have taken you an hour to walk here.

Well, I have brought some biscuits and fruit…Good. We will share. Today God is giving us a feast.

Swami Jnanananda Giri after having lived in India for over 50 years is in his mid-seventies and now lives in a stone hexagonal 2-story cottage in Dehra Dun. It was designed by a famous architect and built for him by his main disciple. The interior is unique as every room is like a temple. The grand sweeping curved staircase is approached through a large wide arch at the foot of which is an enormous bronze baby Ganesh, 4-feet by 3-feet, poised to crawl up the stairs. There is a great deal of traffic noise outside, but once inside this enchanted

domain one is blissfully unaware of such things.

Swami ji ’s small Tibetan Apso dog called Dharma, to whom he has become extremely devoted, has also become famous. The dog keeps the devotees who come for the evening satsang and kirtan very much on their toes, and is not above biting them. When this happens, Swami ji smiles and says that Dharma is helping them to work off their karma! The dog arrived one day alone in a taxi from Delhi when Swami ji was away. His disciple, Maitreyi, was sure Swami ji , no fan of pets, would not want to keep him, but when she contacted him by phone he said mysteriously that the dog had come for a reason and should stay. It now keeps all - even the most serious seekers - in line.

“Transcendent Journey”, Swami ji ’s long-awaited autobiography, has recently been published, and such is Swami ji ’s breadth of vision and his inspiring experiences in the company of some of India’s greatest visionaries and saints, it will surely take its place along-side the perennial, “Autobiography of a Yogi”, by Swami Yogananda.

 

With his Tibetan dog in 2005

 

Swami ji walks me part of the way up the hill back to Landour. He is giving me more advice. I realize an important point: an Interviewer should never talk about his own guru or path — unless asked. All disciples believe they have the greatest guru in the world so it’s unlikely they will want to know about yours anyway.Swami ji is telling me a story:

"I was invited to visit an Ashram…the guru was having a tremendous success abroad. One of the devotees asked me: What do you think of our guru? I replied: Nothing! Stunned offence. Our guru is God in human form — the devotee protested. I asked: What do you think of my guru? They didn’t know who my guru is. Then I said: Just as you don’t know anything about

my guru, I don’t know anything about yours — but in fact, there’s no such thing as my guru or your guru…there is The Guru because God Himself cares to work through some human form we call guru".

From today I will not compare gurus or paths or practices — I am simply to record whatever those whom I Interview care to tell me about them. From today I am to see myself as an extension of the tape recorder, nothing more.From today I am to be detached from caring whether those approached give me an Interview or not; it’s enough to ask. From today I am to float along and enjoy; wherever I am to be dragged will be right, whatever happens will be right.

Chaar Dhaam Pilgrimage04 June 2006, Sunday

There was Puja and Homa at the house of Sri Janardhan Reddy in Delhi.We had nice discussions with the Pujari (a Doctor) related to Vedasand with Nareshji.

Nareshji explained that the first naama of the Lord in Vishnusahasranaamais "Vishvam". The world is a manifestation of the Lord. Everything in theworld is filled with the Lord. This is what the story of Prahalaadashows. The asura employed various means like fire, water, earth, wildanimals, serpents, murderers, etc to kill Prahalaada. But as Vishnu residedin all of them, the devotee was saved. The asura did not expect Vishnu tobe in an inert stone pillar. The Lord was there too !!!

The blessed house of Sri Janardhan Reddy was like an ashram. Anyone whocomes to the house did not go without being fed well. I have heard ofsuch hospitality, but here I was seeing it with my own eyes.

The group that went on the pilgrimage were1. Sri Gopi Krishna - An officer in ILO from Delhi2. Sri Raghava Rao - An educationalist from Hyderabad3. Sri Prasanna Kumar - An MBA student from Hyderabad4. Sri Anjaiah - An officer in an insurance company from Karim Nagar, AP5. Sri Radha Krishna - Anjaiah's friend from Karim Nagar, AP6. Br. Hari Sharanam - A parivrajak brahmachari from Vrindavan7. Sri Gokulmuthu - A software engineer from Bangalore

Gopiji was the organizer and coordinator of the pilgrimage. He knewa lot of ashrams in the area and arranged accommodation and prasadin those places.

The aim of the pilgrimage was to visit the Chaar Dhaam and otherinteresting people and places en route - mainly sadhus and ashrams. 

The group was very devoted. They chanted Vishnusahasranaamam at leastonce everyday. They did japa and sang bhajans whenever possible.

We left Delhi at night.

05 June 2006, Monday

We reached Kailash Ashram, Rishikesh in the morning. We had darshan ofSwami Medhananda Puri. He made coffee for us. As the next day wasGanga Dusshera, we were adviced to go to Gangotri first. The usualChaar Dhaam trip is to visit Yamunotri first and then go toGangotri. We planned to visit Gangotri first to wish Her"Happy Birthday".

We left Rishikesh to Uttarkashi. We reached Sivananda Ashram, Ganeshpuri,UttarKashi in the evening. We had dinner and participated in the eveningBhajans. The rooms were very good and the hospitality was excellent.We had a nice sleep.

06 June 2006, Tuesday

We started from Uttarkashi towards Gangotri. On the way, we sawa mountain with snow on the top. By coincidence, the shape of thewhite snow seen from the van looked like the letter OM. The devoteeswere thrilled.

We took bath in the hot spring at Ganganani.

We reached Gangotri in the midst of a major traffic jam. We were 2kmfrom the Gangotri temple. We decided to get down and walk. No soonerthan we had walked half a kilometer, when suddenly we saw a familiarperson coming towards us. It was Sri Sri Ravishankar. We bowed downto him and made pranams. He greeted us with a smile and quickly wenton his way. We were standing wondering at our good fortune.

We went further and we found a very old lady accompanied by two otherladies slightly younger to her, trying hard to walk towards Gangotriwith her heavy bag, etc. We took the bag from her and helped her tothe temple holding her hand. We felt blessed to be able to help themat the holy place.

We offered prayers at the banks of Ganga at Gangotri. We had darshanat the temple and started back to Uttarkashi.

On the way, Gopiji was having interesting discussions with our driverSri Prabhakar. Prabhakar was a young naughty youth with a good senseof values, but short temper. Sometimes he gets calculative and triesto get more money (natural). Overall he was a nice and interestingperson.

We reached Uttarkashi at nightfall. We had dinner at the ashram andwent to sleep.

07 June 2006, Wednesday

We got up early in the morning and went to the banks of Ganga. Thedevotees chanted Vishnusahasranaam. The sun rise from behind themountains, the sound of Ganga flowing mixed with the melodiouschanting of Vishnusahasranaam was enchanting.

It was the day of Nirjala Ekadasi. As we are not used to it, wewere served some snacks at the ashram. We had satsangh withSwami Premanandaji Maharaj. Raghavji asked the Swamiji to give usa message. Swamiji said "Be thankful to the Lord for whateverthat happens in life. It is by His will and judgement that thingshappen. Don't complaint against or reject His will." He took someannaprasad of Puri Jagannathji and gave to Radhakrishnanji. Heasked Radhakrishnanji to eat it. He ate it. Swamiji said, "See,today is Ekadasi. But he did not think, 'Why is Swamiji doing afoolish thing? Today is Ekadasi and still he is asking me toeat rice. I will not eat it.' He thought, 'Swamiji knows todayis Ekadasi. Still he is asking me to eat this. So it must be fineto eat it.' This should be your attitude. You should rely on thejudgement of God.

He also said that it is the Lord who has become everything in theworld. Learn to see the Lord everywhere. At the same time, useyour intelligence also. He told the story of the Elephant God andthe Mahout God.

We took leave of Swamiji and visited the Vishwanath temple atUttarkashi. There was a huge trident, which was supposed to havebeen used by Shiva.

Then we went towards Yamunotri. We reached Hanuman Chatti at night.

08 June 2006, Thursday

We started in the morning. We went upto Janaki Chatti by a localjeep and started trekking to Yamunotri. The village houses wereinteresting. The horses, the palkis, etc were a new experience.The trek was steep. It was compensated by the beautiful scenery.We were in no hurry. We reached Yamunotri. The water in theriver was cold. Some of us took a dip while others just sprinkledthe water on the head. We took bath in the hot spring water.

There was a Hanuman and Rama temple near the Yamunotri temple.Thanks to Hari Sharanam Maharaj, our afternoon prasad was arranged

in the temple. After prasad, the devotees chanted Vishnusahasranaamoutside the temple. Then we started trekking down.

Gopiji's arthritis gave him a tough time, but he beared it all withcheer. We reached Hanuman Chatti in the evening and stayed therefor the night.

09 June 2006, Friday

In the morning, we started the long drive towards Kedarnath. Thedevotees chanted Vishnusahasranaam and sang some bhajans in the van.On the way, the spring in the van got broken and we had to spend afew hours at Barkot to get it repaired.

We had a nice satsangh while waiting for the van to get repaired.Gopiji told us about the plans of the purohit, who did puja inReddyji's house. The purohit wanted to start a Veda Patashala, buthis plans did not materialize fully. He had spend lakhs of rupeeson it. With Gopiji's support, they are planning to revive it. Wealso had various discussions on spiritual life.

When the van got fixed, we continued our journey.

On the way we had a view of the huge Tehri dam.

We reached Shrinagar (Uttaranchal) by night fall. We stayed therein the night. As this falls on the way to Hemakund Sahib, therewere a lot of Sikh pilgrims in Shrinagar and on the roads.

10 June 2006, Saturday

We started towards Kedarnath. We stopped at Guptakashi. We wentto Sri Srividhya Dhaam. It is a residential patashala and acharitable rest house for sadhus and sadhaks. We left our luggagethere.

We went to the place where a friend of Gopiji - Sri Ramamoorthyji- is leading a secluded life. There is a shiva temple where Nalahad worshipped. There is a place where Nala did tapas. We alsosaw the samadhi of Damayanti from a distance. There were rice andpotato fields all round. There were rows of mountains one behindthe other in all directions. The place was very beautiful.

Sri Ramamoorthyji showed us Bhoj Patra. It is the bark of a treeand is like paper. It is used to write sacred texts. He alsogave some Kedarnath prasad. He gave Gopiji a magnetic knee cap toalleviate some knee pain.

We reached Gauri Kund at the base of Kedarnath before noon. We

took bath in the hot spring and started trekking up. The placewas very crowded. Horses and palkis were plying in the serviceof pilgrims who could not or did not want to trek by foot. Weheard there were more than 20,000 horses in service there. Thereis helicopter service also. The trek is not as steep as Yamunotri,but it is twice as long. It started raining as we neared theKedarnath temple. We reached the top in the night. We took aroom and slept.

11 June 2006, Sunday

We got up in the morning. The sun rising over the snow clad peakof Nilakanta was an enchanting sight.

We had arranged for a priest to help us worship the Lord. He wantedus to tell lies and cut the queue, etc. We told him that it was okwith us to stand for a couple of hours in the queue, but we didnot want to spoil our spiritual mood by telling lies and fightingwith other righteous devotees. The queue moved fast. After a shortwait, we had a nice darshan of the Lord. We worshipped Him to ourhearts satisfaction. We blessed the Lord that He soon gets freedfrom the corrupt pandas and priests.

We had a brunch and started trekking down. We reached Gauri Kundin the early hours of the evening. We sprinkled water from GauriKund on our heads and proceeded.

We went to the temple of Triyuginarayan. The tradition says thatthis is where Shiva married Parvati. Lord Narayana was the priestand the homa kund is being kept akhanda since then. We worshippedthe Lord ignoring the modern day priests, who tried hard to helpus lighten our purses.

On the way back, Sri Prabhakar shown us a temple with a goldencolor dome like structure, on the distant slope of a mountain. He said that it was the place where Shiva cut of the head ofGanesha, who did not let him in on the orders of Parvati. Wedid not have time to visit that temple.

We reached Sri Srividhya Dhaam at Guptakashi at night fall. Wehad prasad there and spent the night there.

12 June 2006, Monday

We reached Chopta, the base of Tunganath. We decided tovisit Sri Tunganathji after long deliberation. It is a threekilometers steep climb. We took the services of horses. Anjaiahwas very frightened to climb on a horse. He walked all the wayup to the great appreciation of the rest of the group. The

scenery on the way up was very beautiful. Its beauty wasexcelled only by the scenery on the top of the mountain, wherethe temple of Sri Tunganathji was situated. It was a very calmplace. There were not many people. We had a nice darshan andsat quietly for sometime facing the vast stretches of openmeadows. This place was too high up for the pine trees to grow.We could clearly see the line above which the tall pine treesdared not to set their foot. Only humble ferns, grass, and somesmall plants and creepers grew in this place. Most of the plantshad beautiful small flowers. This seemed to teach us the attitudewe should have when approaching the Lord.

Upon enquiry, we found that accommodation is available at the topof the hill with all facilities for a very low price. We decidedto plan to come there and spend a week or so, in solitude sometimein future. It is a very good place to test your nerves on asolitary life.

We reluctantly came down from Tunganath. We started towardsJoshimath. We reached Joshimath at night. We had a darshan ofSwami Swaroopanandaji Maharaj, the Shakaracharya of the Math.Gopiji and the other devotees had the privilege of renderingsome personal service to the Swami. They felt very blessed. Wehad prasad in the Math and our accommodation was also arrangedthere.

After enquiring about our whereabouts and welfare, the Sankaracharyaencouraged us to ask questions. Gopiji asked a question, after muchhesitation.

G: Of the two great devotees of Lord - Bhishma and Vibhishana - inKaliyuga, whom should we follow? Bhishma has waged war in favorof Kauravas and against Pandavas knowing fully well that Kauravasare on the wrong side and God and Truth are on the side of Pandavas,whereas Vibhishana has deserted his own brother, who committed amistake, and surrendered to their enemy, Sri Rama, and then becameresponsible in killing his own brother, Ravana, in the hands of Sri Rama.

S: Bhishma is a sign of ego. Bhimshma has promised to his father thathe will not claim either the kingdom or the crown and, at the same timetaken a vow to protect the throne and the kingdom of Kauravas as longas he is alive. And, he stuck to his vow till his last breadth. Bhimsha saysto Draupadi, when he was on the bed of arrows, that he could not objectto the misdeeds of Duryodhana and Kauravas earlier, as his blood waspolluted by the food offered to him by Kauravas, and now that bloodwas taken out by the arrows of Arjuna and is now in a position to teachDharma to Yudhishtara.

In the case of Vibhishana, he has not left the company of his brother

Ravana of his own volition. He was asked to leave Lanka by Ravana,when the former pointed out Ravana's mistakes. Instead of getting killedin the hands of an Asura like Ravana, Vibhishana thought it better to surrenderto Sri Rama, who is the incarnation of Lord Vishnu, and serve Him. Due tohis devotion and surrender to Sri Rama, Vibhishana, has not only got thelove and protection of Sri Rama, but also became the king of Lanka.

Coming to the present conditions, one has to protect Dharma whilesurrendering one's own actions to Lord. Though adharma appears to bewinning, ultimately Dharma will emerge victorious and the present dayhuman being should follow what is dharma. In other words, one shouldhave the dedication to duty of Bhishma and devotion of Vibhishana inthis Kaliyuga.

13 June 2006, Tuesday

We visited the place where some of the Sankaracharyas had donea lot of Tapas. Then we visited the temple where Sankara wassaved by his disciple from death at the hands of a Kapalika.

We had breakfast and started towards the last of the ChaarDhaams - Sri Badrinathji.

We reached Badrinath before noon. We took accomodation at theAnnadaana Chatram of Sri Chinna Jeeyar. We went to see the temple.We wanted to take bath in the hot spring before lunch. As theywere cleaning the tank, we just wetted our mortal frames andhad prasad at the Chatram where we were staying.

We had darshan of Sri Badrinathji. It is a staggering feelingto even think that Lord Narayana is doing Tapas in this place.We came back to the Chartam in the evening. At 6pm, thevolunteers managing the Chatram chanted Vishnusahasranaamand did puja to Sriman Narayana in the small temple in theChatram. It was a small devoted gathering.

14 June 2006, Wednesday

We had a nice bath in the hot water spring in the BadrinathTemple. Gopiji and Raghavji wanted to do some puja for theirancestors. After the puja, we had darshan of the Lord. Wegot some bhog prasad of the Lord. We had lunch at the Chatram.

We wanted to visit some mahatmas in the areas. Gopiji had alist of such people. We could locate a great saint. His namewas Taatambari Baba. He wore only a jute gunny bag. He spokein a charming rustic Hindi. He called us "kapadevaalon".Here is a gist of our conversation with him.

Hari Sharanam Maharaj: Babaji, we have come to see you by yourgrace.Babaji: You have come here by the effect of your prarabda. Soit is by the grace of your karma that you have come here. Itis really your grace.HS: Babaji, give us a message.B: If I tell you what I want to tell, you won't follow. Whatis the use?HS: It is ok. Please tell us what you want to tell. We will try.B: Stay here.HS: What do you mean?B: What you seek in the world is a place to live, clothes towear and food to eat. I will give you all these at this place.Just stay here and do nothing. Which of you is ready for this?HS: How is that possible? What about our prarabda? Where westay and what we do is directed by the prarabda.B: A jnani can do what he wishes. He does not have any karma.All karma gets burnt away in the jnanaagni. A jnani is free.HS: But we are not jnanis.B: That is in your hands. You are just not willing to breakaway. That is the problem.Raghavji: But Babaji, we are grihastas. We have family, joband other duties and responsibilities. Who will take care ofthem?B: See. Everyone's life goes according to their prarabda.Just because you decide to stay here, their life will notbecome anything different from what their prarabda is. Justbecause you decide to stay with your family, their life willnot become anything different from what their prarabda is.You really dont make any difference to anyone.(Great silence prevails in the minds of the devotees.)R: But Babaji, being in the midst of family and otherresponsibilities, how should we lead our life?B: Live like a sannyasi. Be unattached. Know that everyone'slife happens according to their prarabda and you really don'tmake any difference to anyone's life.(Silence again.)B: Did you have darshan of Sri Badrinathji?HS: Yes, Babaji.B: Did you close your eyes and ask God anything?HS: Yes, Babaji.B: What did you ask?HS: I asked for Bhakti.B: Why should He give you Bhakti? Do you want Him or doesHe wants you? Who are you to Him? Why should He give youBhakti because you asked for it?HS: Then what should we ask, Babaji?B: Why should you ask anything at all? Just go, have darshan,feel happy and come back. Why should you ask something?

(Silence.)HS: We will take leave Babaji.(HS tries to take the rug being used to sit on by the devoteesand fold them away.)B: Hey, no, no. You are a Sant. Why should you do that? Iwill take care of it.HS: No Babaji. You are a Sant. We are ordinary people.B: No. You are a renunciate. You are a Sant.(The other devotees take the rug from HS and complete the job.)

We were so enchanted and amused by the dialogue with Taatambari Babathat we were recollecting and discussing his words again and againthroughout the rest of the pilgrimage. We were trying to imitatehis unimitable rustic Hindi and other mannerisms. Hari SharanamMaharaj decided to visit him again during another trip to Badrinathwhen he had more time to spend with Babaji.

In the early evening, we visited the village of Mana in our van.At Mana, we visited Ganesh Guha and Vyasa Guha. This was theplace where Mahabharata was written. The good natured priests inboth the caves explained tirelessly to the pilgrims the historyof these caves and made us feel edified and happy. There were alot of pilgrims visiting these places and everyone felt veryhappy with these priests and donated happily and generously. Oh,how different were these noble priests from those at the templeswe have visited before.

These caves are on the banks of river Sarasvati, which is saidto vanish into the ground shortly downstream and reappears atPrayag (Allahabad). The river forces its way violently througha narrow gorge and tumbles down a steep fall. It was a nicescene to watch. There were some boys taking the risk of collectingsome water from the top of the fall for a few rupees. There isa natural bridge called Bhim Ful (Bhima's bridge) over whichwe had to cross to reach the Sarasvati temple. A short distancefurther on the path is a small temple of Tripurasundari. Wepaid a visit to the temple too.

All along the way, the villagers were selling woollen waremade by themselves at their home.

On the way back, we met an old woman who was doing some farmingon a patch of land overlooked by a huge steep cliff. It wasan enchanting sight to see the puny little figure of the oldlady tottering before the majestic mountain. It was impossibleto say who was greater - Nature or Man. Nature and man seemedto be made for each other, as long as they respected each other.It reminded us of the verses in the Gita where Krishna tellsArjuna - "You offer to the Devas in sacrifice and the Devas will

reward you in plenty. Thus you support each other and liveprosperously."

We came to know that the old lady had trekked to Swargarohan,Gomukh, etc several times. We bowed down to her and she blessedus with motherly affection. We wondered at the simplicity andcordiality of these people.

We spent the night at the Chatram at Badrinath.

15 June 2006, Thursday

We left Badrinath early in the morning and reached the kutir ofSwami Swayambodhanandaji at the village of Jakhwadi in theevening. The Swamiji is the guru of Gokulji. Swamiji has beenliving in that Kutir for the past ten years. It is a verycalm and picturesque place with paddy fields on the mountainslopes surrounded by higher mountains. There is an ancientsmall Shiva temple besides a perennial spring of crystalclear water flowing ceaselessly making a gentle murmuringsound. This seems like the mountain's unceasing japa ofShiva naama at this ancient temple. In the vicinity of thistemple is the small kutir of the Swamiji and another smallkutir that serves as the guest room. The place does not haveelectricity. The villages nearby have electricity supply.The Swamiji said that he did not want electricity and othermodern amenities to keep away casual visitors. Only sinceresadhaks who are ready to bear a lot of hardship are welcome tohis small ashram, which is called "Sanathana Jnanashram".

Gokulji had told earlier that the Swamiji had told him oncethat an ashram is not made of brick and mortar, but ofsincere sadhaks. We were all reminded of that statement andseemed to understand the meaning of that sentence.

Swamiji asked us if we were planning to spend the night there.We told him that we would like to, if it was not aninconvenience to him. He replied that it was no inconvenienceto him, but it was we who should be ready to bear with theinconvenience of the place if we want to stay. We were morethan willing to face any inconvenience to spend more timewith this great sadhu. We decided to spend the night at his"ashram".

Gopiji asked the first question, "We went to the Chaar Dhaamsjust now. We had to face a lot of physical hardship to havedarshan of the deities. To come here too, we had to face alot of hardship. This place is very deep in the mountains,with bad road access, across several mountain streams, etc.

Why do you sadhus and other places of pilgrimage are alwayslocated at almost inaccessible places?" Swamiji gave a verydetailed reply to this question. The jist of his reply was,"I am a rejected person in the society. I came from a middleclass family. So the poor people, who form majority of thepopulation rejected me. At work, I was an honest person. SoI was always a suspect in the eyes of my peers and was rejectedby them. As I was an officer, I was rejected by the workerstoo. I wanted to lead the life of a Brahmacharin. I wasrejected by my family and the society for that. I did notfind any place in the social circles of the people of my agegroup. Even in the ashram of my Guru, I was a rejected person.My aim in life is Jivan Mukti. I was not interested in anypower or position or name in the ashram. As most of the peoplein the ashram are after these things, I was rejected theretoo. I had to leave the ashram. In this world, anyone whofollows the path of Truth has to face this rejection at sometime or the other. So, it is not that we choose to stay ininaccessible places. It is the world that rejects people likeme and these are the places where we land up in." Gopijisaid, "But Swamiji, we have come in search of people like you.How can you say that you are a rejected person?" Swamji said,"Tell me what percentage of the society wants a person likeme?"

Raghavji asked, "We are Grihastas. We have a family, joband other duties and responsibilities. In the midst of allthese and along with all these, how can we strive for God?What is the way for us?" Swamiji replied, "God is the goal.Your wife, children, job, bank balance, and all other thingsare good only as long as they are not obstacles to yourspiritual life. If you are serious about spiritual life,you should not hesitate to forsake anything that is anobstacle between you and for God. Prahalada forsook his father.Vibhishana forsook his brother. Bharata forsook his mother.Mahabali forsook his guru. The goal is God. You will getHim only if you are willing to drop anything that is anobstacle. Keep this in mind and use your own intelligenceand make your life."

Swamiji talked to us about various things. During thecourse of our conversation, he told us this. "Our mindhas various layers - like the conscious, sub-conscious,unconscious, etc. The aims and thoughts in one layercontradict with those in another layer. Sadhana is nothingbut bringing the contradictions in the various layers ofthe mind to the conscious realm and making the choicethat leads us to God. The objective of all the variousyogas - Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga, Karma yoga and Raja

yoga - are the same: to bring out the contradictionsin the mind into conscious vision. When you are consciousof the contradiction, you have to make the right choiceand move forward. Keep doing this. It is not the jobof a single lifetime to remove all the contradictions.It may take a few lifetimes. But this is the spiritualpath. You have to do this. There is no other way. Youhave to face it."

Swamiji talked about giving in charity. He said, "Evenfrom the common sense point of view, you should givein charity to reduce the tension between the rich andthe poor. The big gap between the rich and the poorcreates jealousy. This leads to a lot of problems inthe society. To balance this, the rich have to give incharity to the people whom he faces everyday. This hasto be done by the rich to save his own life. This issimple common sense."

Swamiji made herbal tea for us in the early evening.He made kichadi for the night. He gave each one of usa small part of the task of preparing kichadi. Someof us washed the vessels. Some of us fetched water.Some of us cut vegetables. It was fun. Then Swamijiled us to sing some bhajans. He played on the harmonium.We all clapped our hands to keep the beat and sangwith him. He sang the song "hey roma roma mein vasanevaale Ram". We were all thrilled by the deep meaningof the song.

Gopiji and Gokulji slept in Swamiji's room. The othersslept in the guest room. The toilet in the guest roomhad more facilities than the one in Swamiji's room. Forexample, the toilet in the guest room had a door whichcan be locked. We had a nice sleep in the night.

16 June 2006, Friday

In the morning, Swamiji gave a leaf of a plant to chew.He said that chewing that leaf had a better cleaningeffect than the modern toothpaste and toothbrush. Wehad some herbal tea in the morning and left. Many ofthe devotees donated jackets, shawls, biscuits anddry fruits to Swamiji, which he promptly distributedthen and there among the villagers. He was truly agreat example of renunciation. He seemed to knoweach person in the village intimately and knew who needswhat.

We reached Kailash Ashram in Rishikesh in the evening.Anjaiah and Radhakrishna wanted to go to Delhi soonand decided to carry on.

We went to Paramartha Niketan and saw the Ganga Aratiin the evening. It was a great show. There was greatpomp and grandness. The puja was not impressive, butthe music was good. We left the place after the mainarati. We went to visit some old sadhus living inRishikesh. Gopiji knew them personally. We could meettwo of them.

We came back to Kailash Ashram in the night.

17 June 2006, Saturday

We went to Vashishta Guha. It is about 20km fromRishikesh on the way to Badrinath. The cave is supposedto have been used by several great sages to do tapasya.It is believed that many sages are doing tapasya therein their astral bodies. Recently Swami Purushottamanandaji,a disciple of Swami Brahmanandaji (Rakhal Maharaj), thespiritual son of Sri Ramakrishna lived there for severalyears. After his mahasamadhi, his discipleSwami Chaitanyanandaji Maharaj is managing the place.He is an old sadhu with a soft nature. The cave has ashivalinga. We worshipped the linga and sat in thesilent atmosphere of the cave for sometime.

We spent some time at the banks of the Ganga in theashram. Gokulji had a nice bath in the Ganga. We spentsome more time in the cave and then had prasad at theashram.

We reached Kailash ashram in the evening. We went toSivananda ashram. We took part in the evening bhajansand arati. The Ganga Arati at Sivananda was a smalldevoted one. It was a big contrast with the arati that weattended the previous day. We enjoyed this arati muchmore than the previous day's. We spent some quiet timeon the banks of the Ganges at this hallowed place, wherethe great Swami Sivanandaji Maharaj lived.

We spent the night at Kailash Ashram.

18 June 2006, Sunday

Raghavji and Prasannaji left for Delhi early in the morning.Gokulji had decided to go to Vrindavan with Hari Sharanam

Maharaj. Later they decided to stay back and visitSwami Jnanananda Giri, who lived in Musoorie and Dehradun.Gopiji knew the Swamiji personally. The old Swamiji was aSwiss national, who has been living in India for more than50 years. We visited him at his kutir in Musoorie. He wasmore Indian in culture than most of us. We visited thetemple built by one of his disciples nearby. The Swamiwas on his way to Dehradun. We decided to drop him athis place in Dehradun. Thus we were able to spend sometime with him.

Gopiji and Gokulji started back to Delhi in the afternoon.Hari Sharanam Maharaj joined his other friends in Rishikesh.